1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,159 Hello, everyone. This is Jacob Emerson with the 2 00:00:02,159 --> 00:00:04,099 Becker's Payer Issues podcast. 3 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:06,799 Thrilled today to be joined by Mac McGee, 4 00:00:06,799 --> 00:00:09,539 who is the chief marketing officer at CareFirst 5 00:00:09,679 --> 00:00:11,759 Blue Cross Blue Shield. Mac, thank you so 6 00:00:11,759 --> 00:00:13,519 much for taking the time to be with 7 00:00:13,519 --> 00:00:14,740 me on the podcast today. 8 00:00:15,095 --> 00:00:16,934 Awesome, Jacob. Thanks so much for having me. 9 00:00:16,934 --> 00:00:19,015 Absolutely. Glad you could be with us. And 10 00:00:19,015 --> 00:00:20,614 before we dive into everything we wanna talk 11 00:00:20,614 --> 00:00:21,894 with you about, can you tell us a 12 00:00:21,894 --> 00:00:24,535 little bit more about yourself, your background in 13 00:00:24,535 --> 00:00:26,135 health care, and what it is that you're 14 00:00:26,135 --> 00:00:27,355 doing today at CareFirst? 15 00:00:28,179 --> 00:00:30,579 Sure. So, I'm chief marketing officer at CareFirst 16 00:00:30,579 --> 00:00:32,579 Blue Cross Blue Shield. Been here for five 17 00:00:32,579 --> 00:00:33,320 years now. 18 00:00:33,700 --> 00:00:36,020 This is actually my first full time foray 19 00:00:36,020 --> 00:00:37,719 into the health care landscape. 20 00:00:38,260 --> 00:00:39,859 Prior to this, really spent a lot of 21 00:00:39,859 --> 00:00:42,520 my career on the agency side building brands 22 00:00:42,659 --> 00:00:46,225 focused on creating demand, and then ultimately conversions 23 00:00:46,284 --> 00:00:46,945 or commerce, 24 00:00:47,405 --> 00:00:50,125 for those brands, and certainly worked with companies 25 00:00:50,125 --> 00:00:52,144 in the health care space throughout that career, 26 00:00:52,445 --> 00:00:54,364 but was excited about the opportunity to come 27 00:00:54,364 --> 00:00:57,324 in and, actually joined CareFirst during the height 28 00:00:57,324 --> 00:00:58,064 of the pandemic, 29 00:00:58,770 --> 00:01:00,850 in July 2020, and I've been here ever 30 00:01:00,850 --> 00:01:03,890 since overseeing everything from brand and advertising to 31 00:01:03,890 --> 00:01:06,229 insights, experience, analytics, and engagement, 32 00:01:06,689 --> 00:01:08,390 as well as our communications function. 33 00:01:09,329 --> 00:01:12,155 Fantastic. So one thing that really caught our 34 00:01:12,155 --> 00:01:15,275 eye, Mac, about CareFirst recently in the news 35 00:01:15,275 --> 00:01:17,694 is the company being named the top performing 36 00:01:17,834 --> 00:01:21,215 insurer for customer experience in 2025 37 00:01:21,275 --> 00:01:22,094 by Forrester. 38 00:01:22,475 --> 00:01:24,599 That was a report that came out earlier 39 00:01:24,599 --> 00:01:25,340 this year, 40 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,519 this summer. They analyzed insurance companies from all 41 00:01:28,519 --> 00:01:31,420 over the country about their their customer experience 42 00:01:31,479 --> 00:01:33,739 performance from a variety of metrics. 43 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:35,819 And, you know, as I just mentioned, CareFirst 44 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:39,194 came out on top, across every insurance company 45 00:01:39,194 --> 00:01:41,935 or major insurance company in the country. So 46 00:01:42,314 --> 00:01:44,555 talk to us about what you think has 47 00:01:44,555 --> 00:01:47,194 has led to this, this this acknowledgment that 48 00:01:47,194 --> 00:01:49,674 the company is doing so well among among 49 00:01:49,674 --> 00:01:50,414 your customers, 50 00:01:51,034 --> 00:01:51,534 strategies, 51 00:01:52,109 --> 00:01:54,189 initiatives that you really think has contributed to 52 00:01:54,189 --> 00:01:56,430 this top ranking and and, ultimately, how you 53 00:01:56,430 --> 00:01:59,010 are maintaining this level of performance above 54 00:01:59,630 --> 00:02:00,689 all the other insurers. 55 00:02:01,630 --> 00:02:04,430 Sure. I think so. First and foremost, without 56 00:02:04,430 --> 00:02:06,487 being cliche, it does start with, I think, 57 00:02:06,487 --> 00:02:08,789 just the executive leadership team's support of creating 58 00:02:08,789 --> 00:02:11,378 a culture around it. And I would say 59 00:02:11,378 --> 00:02:13,967 that's something that has been universally true, for 60 00:02:13,967 --> 00:02:16,556 five years now at CareFirst. It's just a 61 00:02:16,556 --> 00:02:19,050 support and really commitment to this idea of 62 00:02:19,050 --> 00:02:21,629 creating that member centricity culture, 63 00:02:22,010 --> 00:02:23,610 which I think can feed this in so 64 00:02:23,610 --> 00:02:26,110 many different ways. And what I really appreciate 65 00:02:26,170 --> 00:02:27,069 about the Forrester 66 00:02:27,610 --> 00:02:28,110 program, 67 00:02:28,730 --> 00:02:30,170 is the way it looks at not only 68 00:02:30,170 --> 00:02:32,670 just brand experience, but then customer experience, 69 00:02:33,264 --> 00:02:34,625 and the way these two play off of 70 00:02:34,625 --> 00:02:36,224 each other. And it's really fascinating as you 71 00:02:36,224 --> 00:02:38,144 get to the data to see that, and 72 00:02:38,144 --> 00:02:40,305 I think something that certainly chief marketing officers, 73 00:02:40,305 --> 00:02:41,604 chief experience officers, 74 00:02:42,224 --> 00:02:44,305 can really appreciate as to how these two 75 00:02:44,305 --> 00:02:45,044 move together. 76 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:47,519 And so for us, it's really been about 77 00:02:47,519 --> 00:02:48,979 kind of building that foundational 78 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:49,780 culture, 79 00:02:50,239 --> 00:02:52,639 to bring everybody to that experience no matter 80 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:54,659 what their day to day job might be, 81 00:02:54,959 --> 00:02:56,719 in order to then make sure that as 82 00:02:56,719 --> 00:02:58,625 we take on the various tasks that it 83 00:02:58,625 --> 00:03:00,644 takes to run a health insurance company, 84 00:03:00,944 --> 00:03:03,104 they're really thinking about that and thinking about 85 00:03:03,104 --> 00:03:05,044 that member centricity in their approach, 86 00:03:05,424 --> 00:03:06,864 because that's really where a lot of it 87 00:03:06,864 --> 00:03:08,784 happens. You know? I tell everybody we can 88 00:03:08,784 --> 00:03:11,185 build products. We can launch great digital tools, 89 00:03:11,185 --> 00:03:12,324 but if the interactions 90 00:03:12,625 --> 00:03:13,125 themselves 91 00:03:13,504 --> 00:03:15,490 aren't truly trustful at the end of the 92 00:03:15,490 --> 00:03:17,569 day and they aren't meaningful to the the 93 00:03:17,569 --> 00:03:18,709 customer and the consumer, 94 00:03:19,009 --> 00:03:20,370 you're only gonna get so far. And I 95 00:03:20,370 --> 00:03:22,229 think that's something we've been really fortunate, 96 00:03:22,770 --> 00:03:24,949 as we've been on this journey and continue 97 00:03:25,009 --> 00:03:25,909 on this journey, 98 00:03:26,254 --> 00:03:28,414 is to have that support and buy in, 99 00:03:28,655 --> 00:03:30,655 and a great team that's continuing to find 100 00:03:30,655 --> 00:03:33,055 ways to bring that member experience to the 101 00:03:33,055 --> 00:03:35,455 forefront no matter what folks at CareFirst may 102 00:03:35,455 --> 00:03:37,294 be doing in order to make sure that 103 00:03:37,294 --> 00:03:39,294 we're continuing to push ourselves and think about 104 00:03:39,294 --> 00:03:41,670 how we continue to be an experience focused 105 00:03:41,670 --> 00:03:42,170 culture. 106 00:03:42,950 --> 00:03:44,870 Absolutely. It makes a lot of sense. Strong 107 00:03:44,870 --> 00:03:47,590 culture, strong leadership, all driving toward this one 108 00:03:47,590 --> 00:03:48,409 common goal. 109 00:03:48,710 --> 00:03:50,790 I should mention for our audience, Mac, that 110 00:03:50,790 --> 00:03:52,330 the that the Forrester report, 111 00:03:53,189 --> 00:03:56,134 it it mentioned that customer experience scores across 112 00:03:56,134 --> 00:03:59,114 the the broader insurance industry have have worsened 113 00:03:59,174 --> 00:04:00,454 over the past few years, and I'm sure 114 00:04:00,454 --> 00:04:02,534 that's not a surprise to, many of our 115 00:04:02,534 --> 00:04:03,275 our listeners. 116 00:04:04,215 --> 00:04:06,150 But, you know, we're we're seeing insurers 117 00:04:07,269 --> 00:04:09,590 lag behind in areas like brand experience, customer 118 00:04:09,590 --> 00:04:11,269 service, and and that's been backed up by 119 00:04:11,269 --> 00:04:11,769 other, 120 00:04:12,310 --> 00:04:15,349 customer experience reports we've seen from other groups 121 00:04:15,349 --> 00:04:17,029 over the last few months and few years. 122 00:04:17,029 --> 00:04:17,529 So 123 00:04:18,149 --> 00:04:20,870 more broadly for for the for the leaders 124 00:04:20,870 --> 00:04:23,185 listening in, what do you think that other 125 00:04:23,185 --> 00:04:25,025 parts of the industry where do you think 126 00:04:25,025 --> 00:04:26,805 other parts of the industry are are falling 127 00:04:27,025 --> 00:04:29,605 short, and and where do you see opportunities 128 00:04:29,824 --> 00:04:31,925 for improvement? Where could other companies, 129 00:04:32,545 --> 00:04:34,165 follow the lead of of CareFirst? 130 00:04:35,110 --> 00:04:37,110 Yeah. It's been interesting, Jacob, in talking with, 131 00:04:37,430 --> 00:04:39,350 both folks inside of industry and outside of 132 00:04:39,350 --> 00:04:41,689 industry and whether it's been chief marketing officers, 133 00:04:41,990 --> 00:04:44,310 with other companies or chief experience officers. You 134 00:04:44,310 --> 00:04:46,169 know, we we talk about this a lot 135 00:04:46,470 --> 00:04:48,149 and this idea of you really gotta look 136 00:04:48,149 --> 00:04:51,105 at what's happening in outside consumer interactions and 137 00:04:51,105 --> 00:04:52,165 how that's influencing 138 00:04:52,704 --> 00:04:55,425 experience expectations. And so I think when you 139 00:04:55,425 --> 00:04:56,964 see what came out from Forrester 140 00:04:57,504 --> 00:04:59,764 in an industry like ours that was admittedly 141 00:04:59,824 --> 00:05:01,425 had a lot of opportunity in front of 142 00:05:01,425 --> 00:05:03,459 it it many years ago as it related 143 00:05:03,459 --> 00:05:05,459 to, you know, the opportunities to optimize and 144 00:05:05,459 --> 00:05:07,639 improve things like customer member experience, 145 00:05:08,180 --> 00:05:09,779 you have to continue to pay attention to 146 00:05:09,779 --> 00:05:11,000 these outside forces. 147 00:05:11,540 --> 00:05:12,899 And I go back, you know, my time 148 00:05:12,899 --> 00:05:15,024 in the agency world. We used to talk 149 00:05:15,024 --> 00:05:17,365 about what happened with Google search when autofill 150 00:05:17,425 --> 00:05:19,264 came in and just what what that did 151 00:05:19,264 --> 00:05:21,425 for for the consumer around being able to 152 00:05:21,425 --> 00:05:23,764 not have to even complete a search query 153 00:05:23,824 --> 00:05:25,284 to ultimately get results. 154 00:05:25,904 --> 00:05:27,204 And then you look certainly, 155 00:05:27,584 --> 00:05:29,584 you know, it would be lost without mentioning 156 00:05:29,584 --> 00:05:32,519 just the impact of what AI and AI 157 00:05:32,519 --> 00:05:34,060 type interactions are 158 00:05:34,439 --> 00:05:36,519 doing, to consumer experience. And so I think 159 00:05:36,519 --> 00:05:38,839 what you're really continuing to see is this 160 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:39,979 ongoing rebaselining 161 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:43,639 of consumer expectations and the industry not moving 162 00:05:43,639 --> 00:05:45,794 fast enough and already being behind, 163 00:05:46,095 --> 00:05:48,254 that's really being a detriment to to a 164 00:05:48,254 --> 00:05:50,415 lot of what is the customer or member 165 00:05:50,415 --> 00:05:52,814 experience in this case. And so you think 166 00:05:52,814 --> 00:05:54,654 about what things you'll see in in in 167 00:05:54,654 --> 00:05:57,074 Forrester studies and hear from experienced professionals. 168 00:05:57,470 --> 00:05:59,170 Right? This this starts ultimately, 169 00:06:00,030 --> 00:06:02,110 at trust, and and so much of trust 170 00:06:02,110 --> 00:06:04,110 is tied to personalization. And we've seen this 171 00:06:04,110 --> 00:06:06,270 in our internal studies as well as the 172 00:06:06,270 --> 00:06:09,009 external measurement programs as to how personalization 173 00:06:09,389 --> 00:06:10,770 and trust move together. 174 00:06:11,074 --> 00:06:13,235 Right? And members or consumers really know, like, 175 00:06:13,235 --> 00:06:14,995 does the brand know who I am? It's 176 00:06:14,995 --> 00:06:17,555 really just a a simple starting point of 177 00:06:17,555 --> 00:06:20,194 the interactions they have. And so, you know, 178 00:06:20,194 --> 00:06:22,595 thinking about what's happening in that space, and 179 00:06:22,595 --> 00:06:24,660 then thinking about frictionless. Right? And I think 180 00:06:24,660 --> 00:06:27,300 this is, again, two main areas that AI 181 00:06:27,300 --> 00:06:30,259 is really continuing to push, not just in 182 00:06:30,259 --> 00:06:32,580 terms of what the AI technology is, how 183 00:06:32,580 --> 00:06:34,660 you're seeing it present itself in terms of 184 00:06:34,660 --> 00:06:37,060 online commerce and ordering from day to day 185 00:06:37,060 --> 00:06:39,285 things consumers are interacting with, as well as 186 00:06:39,285 --> 00:06:41,064 other industries, quite frankly, hospitality 187 00:06:41,524 --> 00:06:43,285 and the finance industry doing a lot of 188 00:06:43,285 --> 00:06:45,365 leading work in this space. And so you 189 00:06:45,365 --> 00:06:46,964 look then back at ours and you go, 190 00:06:46,964 --> 00:06:48,104 okay. Well, frictionless, 191 00:06:48,805 --> 00:06:50,725 where where do we create friction? Right? And 192 00:06:50,725 --> 00:06:52,324 you think about things like prior auth, and 193 00:06:52,324 --> 00:06:55,079 you're seeing the industry even now come together 194 00:06:55,079 --> 00:06:57,959 in 2025 and go, we've gotta create some 195 00:06:57,959 --> 00:06:58,459 standardizations 196 00:06:58,759 --> 00:07:01,819 here because we're doing these things too independently 197 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:04,459 at the detriment of the consumer. 198 00:07:04,919 --> 00:07:07,399 And so we've gotta make wider sweeping changes 199 00:07:07,399 --> 00:07:09,605 there in order for that to happen. There's 200 00:07:09,605 --> 00:07:12,254 no doubt, obviously, since the events in December 201 00:07:12,254 --> 00:07:12,985 '24, 202 00:07:13,285 --> 00:07:15,365 the stories around claim denials. Right? And so 203 00:07:15,365 --> 00:07:16,904 these things represent friction. 204 00:07:17,285 --> 00:07:19,205 And I think as we think about experience 205 00:07:19,205 --> 00:07:20,904 today and what consumers expect, 206 00:07:21,519 --> 00:07:23,360 they don't care about your business processes and 207 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:23,860 practices. 208 00:07:24,399 --> 00:07:25,759 If those need to be in place, they 209 00:07:25,759 --> 00:07:28,399 didn't happen in the background. Right? And so 210 00:07:28,399 --> 00:07:30,560 simple things like single sign on, you know, 211 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:32,479 and really making sure that you're creating a 212 00:07:32,479 --> 00:07:32,979 frictionless 213 00:07:33,279 --> 00:07:33,779 environment 214 00:07:34,165 --> 00:07:36,084 and interaction for the consumers. And so I 215 00:07:36,084 --> 00:07:38,884 think we're just seeing ongoing rebaselining and the 216 00:07:38,884 --> 00:07:42,165 expectations just growing and growing from consumers on 217 00:07:42,165 --> 00:07:44,324 what they want. And it's incumbent on us 218 00:07:44,324 --> 00:07:45,685 to meet that challenge. And I think we 219 00:07:45,685 --> 00:07:47,384 admit that we got a lot of opportunity 220 00:07:47,605 --> 00:07:48,504 in this industry, 221 00:07:49,139 --> 00:07:51,939 with our abilities to inject this in. We 222 00:07:51,939 --> 00:07:53,860 have to be cautious as we think about 223 00:07:53,860 --> 00:07:56,519 opportunities in that space around AI and automation. 224 00:07:57,060 --> 00:07:58,580 But there's a lot of opportunity here that 225 00:07:58,580 --> 00:07:59,860 I think is gonna go a long way 226 00:07:59,860 --> 00:08:01,875 in just helping consumers with what I think 227 00:08:01,875 --> 00:08:04,294 is some relatively basic expectations 228 00:08:04,595 --> 00:08:07,154 around being able to self serve at greater 229 00:08:07,154 --> 00:08:09,555 capacities in this industry and meet, you know, 230 00:08:09,555 --> 00:08:11,875 industry wide benchmarks. And at the same time, 231 00:08:11,875 --> 00:08:13,394 just being able to do the things they 232 00:08:13,394 --> 00:08:15,235 need to do to navigate the health care 233 00:08:15,235 --> 00:08:16,294 experience easier. 234 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:19,120 Definitely. And it's interesting you say that the 235 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:21,680 industry needs to look more externally because we've 236 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:24,160 we've heard that before from from leaders all 237 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:25,839 over the country in terms of wanting to 238 00:08:25,839 --> 00:08:28,560 emulate more the airline industry or or or 239 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:30,720 what you mentioned, the hospitality industry and make 240 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:31,779 things so much easier 241 00:08:32,144 --> 00:08:34,225 for customers. And and one thing one challenge 242 00:08:34,225 --> 00:08:35,664 we always hear is that it's just it's 243 00:08:35,664 --> 00:08:38,144 such a everyone's working in different spaces and 244 00:08:38,144 --> 00:08:40,384 silos, and and it's such a complex industry. 245 00:08:40,384 --> 00:08:42,945 It's so difficult to to change things for 246 00:08:42,945 --> 00:08:44,820 the better. And I think, you know, that's 247 00:08:44,820 --> 00:08:46,180 I think that's a pretty fair thing to 248 00:08:46,180 --> 00:08:49,139 say towards someone in your role as working 249 00:08:49,139 --> 00:08:50,820 as a as a chief marketing officer in 250 00:08:50,820 --> 00:08:52,899 this space is that it's it's a very 251 00:08:52,899 --> 00:08:55,620 difficult industry. It's it's very complex. It's very 252 00:08:55,620 --> 00:08:57,834 emotional from the member side of things. And 253 00:08:57,834 --> 00:08:59,834 and what we've just talked about, the customer 254 00:08:59,834 --> 00:09:02,315 expectations are so quickly evolving in what can 255 00:09:02,315 --> 00:09:05,054 be a very rigid space. So 256 00:09:06,475 --> 00:09:08,554 with all that being said, Mac, from your 257 00:09:08,554 --> 00:09:09,855 experience now at CareFirst, 258 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:11,980 what do you think is key to successfully 259 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:15,160 navigating all these challenges and really achieving that 260 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:15,660 sustained 261 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:17,820 success that we've now seen CareFirst, 262 00:09:18,279 --> 00:09:19,259 be able to do? 263 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:21,879 Yeah. I think first is we've gotta throw 264 00:09:21,879 --> 00:09:23,879 that storyline out. Right? I think for too 265 00:09:23,879 --> 00:09:26,044 long, we've existed on the idea. These things 266 00:09:26,044 --> 00:09:28,524 are too complex. Right? And there's too much 267 00:09:28,524 --> 00:09:31,004 around it, whether it's regulation and product design, 268 00:09:31,004 --> 00:09:33,485 benefit design. And and so we've gotta challenge 269 00:09:33,485 --> 00:09:34,865 ourselves that that excuse 270 00:09:35,324 --> 00:09:37,404 isn't going to be tolerated anymore. And you've 271 00:09:37,404 --> 00:09:39,839 seen it, in the startup world as things 272 00:09:39,839 --> 00:09:41,839 come in and try and really challenge the 273 00:09:41,839 --> 00:09:44,339 systems in place. And what it's often doing 274 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:46,559 is nothing more than simplifying. And so, you 275 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:48,559 know, one of the things culturally we've really 276 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:51,220 established as we think about experience strategy, 277 00:09:51,705 --> 00:09:53,945 and journey mapping for our members is this 278 00:09:53,945 --> 00:09:55,325 idea of moments of truth. 279 00:09:55,705 --> 00:09:57,705 When you identify those moments of truth, how 280 00:09:57,705 --> 00:09:59,644 do you look at those and really challenge 281 00:09:59,705 --> 00:10:03,004 on what makes for a better consumer experience 282 00:10:03,065 --> 00:10:04,990 today than what we're offering? And so you 283 00:10:04,990 --> 00:10:06,669 think about, you know, when people buy products 284 00:10:06,669 --> 00:10:07,169 upfront. 285 00:10:07,629 --> 00:10:09,809 And this is like a very basic interaction 286 00:10:09,870 --> 00:10:11,709 for us, but it's something that we've really 287 00:10:11,709 --> 00:10:14,110 gotta think about of what are we doing 288 00:10:14,110 --> 00:10:16,764 to educate that member in that capacity. And 289 00:10:16,764 --> 00:10:19,184 for so long, we accepted things like providing 290 00:10:19,325 --> 00:10:21,565 a glossary of our own terminology as a 291 00:10:21,565 --> 00:10:22,464 way of educating, 292 00:10:23,004 --> 00:10:25,664 consumers around buying. That's not good enough. Right? 293 00:10:25,804 --> 00:10:27,164 The fact that we even have to offer 294 00:10:27,164 --> 00:10:28,924 the glossary, I think, should tell us something, 295 00:10:28,924 --> 00:10:31,320 right, about what we're doing. But thinking about 296 00:10:31,539 --> 00:10:33,860 people buying, people buying for me or people 297 00:10:33,860 --> 00:10:36,200 buying for us, right, which is often happening 298 00:10:36,259 --> 00:10:38,019 in our world, and how do you create 299 00:10:38,019 --> 00:10:41,299 better education, better shopping experiences that account for 300 00:10:41,299 --> 00:10:43,139 that. And we've seen a big lift there 301 00:10:43,139 --> 00:10:45,139 just in in the way in which we 302 00:10:45,139 --> 00:10:47,975 talk with our members or potential members during 303 00:10:47,975 --> 00:10:49,195 that purchase process, 304 00:10:49,654 --> 00:10:51,174 and really trying to work now with our 305 00:10:51,174 --> 00:10:51,674 partners, 306 00:10:52,134 --> 00:10:54,294 on how we scale those efforts to bring 307 00:10:54,294 --> 00:10:56,855 that experience to members as they purchase knowing 308 00:10:56,855 --> 00:10:58,855 that that's at the very outset of our 309 00:10:58,855 --> 00:11:01,600 relationship gonna start things off. And then looking 310 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:03,839 at those other moments of truth when people 311 00:11:03,839 --> 00:11:06,159 are calling in to try and estimate costs 312 00:11:06,159 --> 00:11:07,379 for various procedures, 313 00:11:07,839 --> 00:11:09,519 when they receive an EOB. What does that 314 00:11:09,519 --> 00:11:11,839 EOB look like? What is the language we 315 00:11:11,839 --> 00:11:14,079 use in it? And really trying to think 316 00:11:14,079 --> 00:11:15,365 about those pieces, 317 00:11:15,745 --> 00:11:18,384 and adopting this idea of being simple, clear, 318 00:11:18,384 --> 00:11:20,165 and human and challenging ourselves 319 00:11:20,865 --> 00:11:22,865 across the journey as to anywhere where we're 320 00:11:22,865 --> 00:11:24,785 not living up to that and how we 321 00:11:24,785 --> 00:11:26,004 might challenge those 322 00:11:26,429 --> 00:11:29,358 interactions to meet that opportunity to be simple, 323 00:11:29,358 --> 00:11:31,189 clear, and human is something we're really taking 324 00:11:31,189 --> 00:11:31,730 on internally 325 00:11:32,190 --> 00:11:34,269 in so much of what we're doing, as 326 00:11:34,269 --> 00:11:35,950 well as the folks that are ultimately answering 327 00:11:35,950 --> 00:11:36,750 the phone at the end of the day. 328 00:11:36,750 --> 00:11:38,350 And our and our folks do a phenomenal 329 00:11:38,350 --> 00:11:39,629 job of this, and I'd argue that so 330 00:11:39,629 --> 00:11:41,325 much of the success you're seeing right now 331 00:11:41,485 --> 00:11:42,465 is those interactions 332 00:11:42,924 --> 00:11:44,605 that we see from people that do have 333 00:11:44,605 --> 00:11:46,365 to call in and are looking for guidance 334 00:11:46,365 --> 00:11:48,205 and help. And what can be a really 335 00:11:48,205 --> 00:11:50,524 vulnerable moment in their life, whether they're dealing 336 00:11:50,524 --> 00:11:52,384 with something health related, but also is inevitably 337 00:11:52,445 --> 00:11:54,845 something financially related and and having someone they 338 00:11:54,845 --> 00:11:56,544 feel like they can trust to talk to. 339 00:11:57,409 --> 00:12:00,049 Absolutely. So throwing out that old playbook of, 340 00:12:00,049 --> 00:12:02,709 you know, things are too complex, too rigid 341 00:12:03,250 --> 00:12:05,809 for change, to occur. It's it's fascinating to 342 00:12:05,809 --> 00:12:07,269 hear you say that, Mac. 343 00:12:08,529 --> 00:12:10,575 Before we go, what else are we missing? 344 00:12:10,654 --> 00:12:12,254 You've got the ears of a lot of 345 00:12:12,254 --> 00:12:14,335 other health plan leaders from all over the 346 00:12:14,335 --> 00:12:16,014 country. What else do you wanna share with 347 00:12:16,014 --> 00:12:16,514 them? 348 00:12:17,134 --> 00:12:19,455 I think that really interesting thing to me 349 00:12:19,455 --> 00:12:21,134 in in looking at this year's results in 350 00:12:21,134 --> 00:12:23,215 this particular study, but something we've really been 351 00:12:23,215 --> 00:12:24,679 trying to look at for a while now, 352 00:12:25,220 --> 00:12:27,700 is is just the relationship and play between 353 00:12:27,700 --> 00:12:29,620 brand and experience. Right? And I think we 354 00:12:29,620 --> 00:12:31,139 we we talk about this a lot as 355 00:12:31,139 --> 00:12:32,980 to, you know, the brand that shows up 356 00:12:32,980 --> 00:12:36,100 in your respective market versus the experience your 357 00:12:36,100 --> 00:12:38,899 current customers have and how much daylight is 358 00:12:38,899 --> 00:12:40,634 there between those two things. And so I 359 00:12:40,634 --> 00:12:42,875 think what what I'd encourage other leaders to 360 00:12:42,875 --> 00:12:44,475 look at, whether you look at the results 361 00:12:44,475 --> 00:12:46,154 of your own performance in a study like 362 00:12:46,154 --> 00:12:48,794 this or at least just conceptually what this 363 00:12:48,794 --> 00:12:51,514 third party research and and a company like 364 00:12:51,514 --> 00:12:53,639 Forrester is showing is just how much play 365 00:12:53,639 --> 00:12:56,200 there is between these two places and the 366 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:57,960 way you've gotta really look at them together 367 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:00,519 as to how experience is an extension of 368 00:13:00,519 --> 00:13:02,920 brand and brand is an extension of experience. 369 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:04,759 And I think you've gotta think about that 370 00:13:04,759 --> 00:13:06,059 strategy holistically 371 00:13:06,845 --> 00:13:09,165 and pay attention to both what your customers 372 00:13:09,165 --> 00:13:11,424 are telling you today in that as well 373 00:13:11,565 --> 00:13:13,165 as what is the market saying. And if 374 00:13:13,165 --> 00:13:15,725 your ultimate goal, like many, is growth and 375 00:13:15,725 --> 00:13:18,205 and retention certainly is looking at how are 376 00:13:18,205 --> 00:13:20,684 we able to engage that audience and what 377 00:13:20,684 --> 00:13:22,285 are the challenges ahead of us as we 378 00:13:22,285 --> 00:13:25,539 try and generate new growth and really understand 379 00:13:25,539 --> 00:13:27,139 what our challenges are in that space, what 380 00:13:27,139 --> 00:13:29,539 our opportunities to lean into that space, but 381 00:13:29,539 --> 00:13:31,860 how these things connect together. And I think 382 00:13:31,860 --> 00:13:34,580 this is something that, marketing leaders and experienced 383 00:13:34,580 --> 00:13:36,339 leaders have talked about for quite some time, 384 00:13:36,339 --> 00:13:39,465 but there's gotta be really tight connectivity between 385 00:13:39,465 --> 00:13:41,544 these functions if you are going to be 386 00:13:41,544 --> 00:13:42,044 successful 387 00:13:42,585 --> 00:13:44,504 as you endeavor on this journey. And I 388 00:13:44,504 --> 00:13:46,585 think that's a real opportunity for everybody to 389 00:13:46,585 --> 00:13:47,325 lean into. 390 00:13:48,024 --> 00:13:50,904 Fantastic. It's great. Last bits of advice. Mac, 391 00:13:50,904 --> 00:13:53,089 I wanna thank you for taking the time 392 00:13:53,089 --> 00:13:54,850 to chat with us and for sharing your 393 00:13:54,850 --> 00:13:57,750 insights with our listeners. We really appreciate it. 394 00:13:58,049 --> 00:13:59,490 Thanks so much for having me, Jacob. Really 395 00:13:59,490 --> 00:14:02,209 appreciate the opportunity. Yeah. Absolutely. And to our 396 00:14:02,209 --> 00:14:04,129 listeners, if you wanna listen to more podcasts 397 00:14:04,129 --> 00:14:07,990 from Becker's HealthCare, you can visit beckershospitalreview.com.