1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,720 Hello, everyone. This is Erica Spicer Mason with 2 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:04,960 Becker's Healthcare. Thank you so much for tuning 3 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:07,620 into the Becker's Healthcare podcast series today. 4 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:10,080 So today we're going to talk about a 5 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:11,699 roadmap for healthcare administrators 6 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:14,580 that touches on physician alignment, engagement, 7 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:15,619 and retention. 8 00:00:16,184 --> 00:00:18,344 And joining me for today's discussion on this 9 00:00:18,344 --> 00:00:20,125 roadmap is Scott Pollens, 10 00:00:20,504 --> 00:00:24,285 a principal consultant at CHG Healthcare Advisory Services. 11 00:00:25,064 --> 00:00:26,824 Scott, great to have you on the podcast. 12 00:00:26,824 --> 00:00:28,684 Thank you so much for being here today. 13 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:30,960 Yeah. Thank you, Erica. I'm I'm I'm excited 14 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:32,799 to to talk about a topic I'm quite 15 00:00:32,799 --> 00:00:35,679 passionate about. Yeah. I'm excited to learn more 16 00:00:35,679 --> 00:00:37,280 about this road map and and the role 17 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:39,679 that you've played in developing it. And before 18 00:00:39,679 --> 00:00:41,120 we get to that, I wanted to talk 19 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:43,104 a little bit about your background just to 20 00:00:43,104 --> 00:00:44,864 give our listeners a little bit of context 21 00:00:44,864 --> 00:00:45,364 here. 22 00:00:45,664 --> 00:00:48,225 I know you've held both rural CEO roles 23 00:00:48,225 --> 00:00:51,204 and system leadership positions, and now you consult 24 00:00:51,424 --> 00:00:53,984 nationally for health care. So how has your 25 00:00:53,984 --> 00:00:56,706 own journey shaped the way that you think 26 00:00:56,706 --> 00:00:59,453 about physician alignment, engagement, and retention, and why 27 00:00:59,453 --> 00:01:02,200 are these areas so important to organizational success 28 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:05,291 right now? Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. I I've 29 00:01:05,291 --> 00:01:07,351 had a really cool career and, 30 00:01:07,855 --> 00:01:10,015 have been a CEO and a CEO of 31 00:01:10,015 --> 00:01:12,495 hospitals in Central North and Western Wisconsin and 32 00:01:12,495 --> 00:01:14,094 rural areas and then, 33 00:01:14,734 --> 00:01:16,754 or saw physician in APP recruitment 34 00:01:17,055 --> 00:01:19,854 and really retention, and that's really got focus. 35 00:01:19,854 --> 00:01:22,420 So back to your question, I, I think 36 00:01:22,420 --> 00:01:23,939 about it all the time as my career 37 00:01:23,939 --> 00:01:26,500 has evolved because I just feel very strongly 38 00:01:26,500 --> 00:01:28,819 that physician relations and how we treat our 39 00:01:28,819 --> 00:01:29,319 physicians 40 00:01:29,780 --> 00:01:32,200 is mission critical for all health care organizations. 41 00:01:32,420 --> 00:01:34,280 And, you know, if you think about 42 00:01:34,724 --> 00:01:37,284 take care of your physicians, it improves patient 43 00:01:37,284 --> 00:01:40,685 care, it enhances innovation, it reduces burnout and 44 00:01:40,685 --> 00:01:42,504 a turnover across your organization, 45 00:01:43,045 --> 00:01:46,084 it enhances efficiency and standardization of care, it 46 00:01:46,084 --> 00:01:48,344 improves your eight your health care organization 47 00:01:48,645 --> 00:01:49,145 performance, 48 00:01:49,659 --> 00:01:53,019 focuses on the quadruple aim, improves continuity of 49 00:01:53,019 --> 00:01:55,579 care, and reduces recruitment costs, and just really 50 00:01:55,579 --> 00:01:57,420 improves your overall culture. And if you think 51 00:01:57,420 --> 00:01:58,239 about physicians, 52 00:01:59,099 --> 00:02:00,780 many of them are in leadership roles, but 53 00:02:00,780 --> 00:02:02,594 most of them are not in leadership roles 54 00:02:02,674 --> 00:02:04,355 and but they're still the captain of the 55 00:02:04,355 --> 00:02:06,114 ship or the captain of the team in 56 00:02:06,114 --> 00:02:06,855 the OR, 57 00:02:07,395 --> 00:02:09,074 in the clinic if they're in a a 58 00:02:09,074 --> 00:02:11,574 primary care type of setting in the hospital. 59 00:02:11,955 --> 00:02:13,794 So they're the ones that are really running 60 00:02:13,794 --> 00:02:15,715 the show, and they're the cornerstone and they 61 00:02:15,715 --> 00:02:17,314 really lead. If you think about pillars of 62 00:02:17,314 --> 00:02:17,814 excellence, 63 00:02:18,490 --> 00:02:21,610 from quality and safety, service, patient experience, growth, 64 00:02:21,610 --> 00:02:23,610 finance, people. If you take care of your 65 00:02:23,610 --> 00:02:25,389 docs, you take care of all your pillars 66 00:02:25,409 --> 00:02:28,569 of of excellence. And and what I worry 67 00:02:28,569 --> 00:02:30,409 about in the industry and what I've seen 68 00:02:30,409 --> 00:02:32,250 the last few years is it seems like 69 00:02:32,250 --> 00:02:33,290 we're moving to, 70 00:02:33,844 --> 00:02:36,324 and have been moving to treating physicians more 71 00:02:36,324 --> 00:02:37,064 like a commodity. 72 00:02:37,525 --> 00:02:40,004 And they're not commodities. We're all you know, 73 00:02:40,004 --> 00:02:42,025 we seek health care. We're not commodities. 74 00:02:42,564 --> 00:02:44,644 These aren't widgets we're making. And, 75 00:02:45,205 --> 00:02:47,460 so I'm just very passionate about committing to 76 00:02:47,460 --> 00:02:49,860 align and engage our physicians then we can 77 00:02:49,860 --> 00:02:53,080 retain them. And from a financial standpoint, Erica, 78 00:02:53,620 --> 00:02:55,780 an engaged physician is 26% 79 00:02:55,780 --> 00:02:58,420 more productive than a disengaged physician. So the 80 00:02:58,420 --> 00:03:00,680 numbers will will demonstrate that 81 00:03:01,025 --> 00:03:04,465 physician alignment, engagement, and and, retention are really, 82 00:03:04,465 --> 00:03:07,585 really important. That's about that 26% more productive 83 00:03:07,585 --> 00:03:09,344 is about a half million dollars more in 84 00:03:09,344 --> 00:03:11,444 additional revenue annual for an organization. 85 00:03:13,025 --> 00:03:15,425 Yeah. Scott, I appreciate you tying some of 86 00:03:15,425 --> 00:03:15,925 these, 87 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:17,579 you know, 88 00:03:17,959 --> 00:03:19,180 the the benefits of 89 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:22,680 effective physician alignment, engagement, and retention, tying those 90 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:24,219 to some of the key measures and 91 00:03:24,519 --> 00:03:26,280 areas that we know health care leaders are 92 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:27,879 worried about right now. You know, you're talking 93 00:03:27,879 --> 00:03:28,699 about productivity, 94 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:29,500 efficiency, 95 00:03:29,879 --> 00:03:30,780 cost savings, 96 00:03:31,594 --> 00:03:33,754 and then of course, you know, the mission 97 00:03:33,754 --> 00:03:34,974 critical piece about 98 00:03:35,514 --> 00:03:37,914 streamlining and optimizing patient care too. I know 99 00:03:37,914 --> 00:03:39,754 that's really at the heart of why we 100 00:03:39,754 --> 00:03:41,435 want physicians to be happy and why we 101 00:03:41,435 --> 00:03:43,275 want them to be operating well in their 102 00:03:43,275 --> 00:03:45,055 roles so they can better serve patients. 103 00:03:45,719 --> 00:03:47,819 So again, I really appreciate that overview. 104 00:03:48,599 --> 00:03:50,039 And I wanna take a step back too 105 00:03:50,039 --> 00:03:52,280 and and talk a little bit about these 106 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:53,340 words, alignment, 107 00:03:53,799 --> 00:03:55,019 engagement, and retention. 108 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:57,560 I rattled them off very quickly in the 109 00:03:57,560 --> 00:03:59,979 beginning, but I know it's important to distinguish, 110 00:04:00,735 --> 00:04:02,194 between each of them. And 111 00:04:02,495 --> 00:04:05,534 oftentimes, they're referred to as interchangeable terms, but 112 00:04:05,534 --> 00:04:07,135 I have a feeling that's probably not the 113 00:04:07,135 --> 00:04:08,735 case. So I I'd like to know how 114 00:04:08,735 --> 00:04:10,594 you distinguish those three terms 115 00:04:10,895 --> 00:04:12,254 and how you address those, 116 00:04:12,655 --> 00:04:14,680 in your physician retention road map. Would love 117 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:16,959 to learn more there. Yeah. Thank you, Erica. 118 00:04:16,959 --> 00:04:17,680 It it, 119 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:20,000 was very intentional in in thinking about this, 120 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:21,600 and it it really started a few years 121 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:24,079 ago in a a larger health care system 122 00:04:24,079 --> 00:04:25,220 I was working at. 123 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:27,519 And we took an engagement survey, and the 124 00:04:27,519 --> 00:04:30,894 results weren't very good at all. And, my 125 00:04:30,894 --> 00:04:33,795 diet partner and I had had just kinda 126 00:04:33,855 --> 00:04:36,175 stepped back and said, you know, our engagement 127 00:04:36,175 --> 00:04:38,175 is low. Okay. We gotta figure out how 128 00:04:38,175 --> 00:04:40,254 to to better engage our physicians. But what 129 00:04:40,254 --> 00:04:42,814 we realized is that our physicians were engaged. 130 00:04:42,814 --> 00:04:44,194 They just weren't aligned 131 00:04:44,819 --> 00:04:47,220 with our mission and our vision and and 132 00:04:47,220 --> 00:04:50,019 our executive leadership. And until we solve their 133 00:04:50,019 --> 00:04:50,519 alignment 134 00:04:50,979 --> 00:04:53,060 and focus on their alignment, we will not 135 00:04:53,060 --> 00:04:54,839 be able to get them engaged and ultimately 136 00:04:54,899 --> 00:04:57,459 retain them. So that's why we we broke 137 00:04:57,459 --> 00:04:58,099 it out. And, 138 00:04:58,894 --> 00:05:00,254 if you think about the road map that 139 00:05:00,254 --> 00:05:01,154 we've put together, 140 00:05:01,615 --> 00:05:04,175 it has, four areas under alignment. So in 141 00:05:04,175 --> 00:05:06,675 the road map, we talk about culture, executive 142 00:05:06,735 --> 00:05:07,875 leadership, communications, 143 00:05:08,254 --> 00:05:11,259 and physician voice and leadership. And then under 144 00:05:11,379 --> 00:05:13,779 in the road map under engagement, which is 145 00:05:13,779 --> 00:05:16,500 really kind of that emotional connection and and 146 00:05:16,500 --> 00:05:19,220 and and doctors feeling valued and office feeling 147 00:05:19,220 --> 00:05:19,720 valued, 148 00:05:20,100 --> 00:05:21,560 we talk about onboarding, 149 00:05:21,939 --> 00:05:23,894 you know, how they're introduced to the organization, 150 00:05:23,954 --> 00:05:26,774 their work life balance and flexibility, their operational 151 00:05:26,995 --> 00:05:29,475 efficiency, and and just the whole social side 152 00:05:29,475 --> 00:05:30,294 and the socialization 153 00:05:30,754 --> 00:05:33,634 of with their colleagues and collegiality and also 154 00:05:33,634 --> 00:05:35,954 their families. And then we we end with, 155 00:05:36,115 --> 00:05:37,574 or then we focus on retention, 156 00:05:38,029 --> 00:05:40,430 which is really that long term commitment supported 157 00:05:40,430 --> 00:05:42,830 by structure and our experience and and we 158 00:05:42,830 --> 00:05:45,470 focus in four different areas of professional their 159 00:05:45,470 --> 00:05:46,930 professional growth and development, 160 00:05:47,470 --> 00:05:48,290 their well-being, 161 00:05:48,670 --> 00:05:51,550 their compensation and incentives obviously is important, and 162 00:05:51,550 --> 00:05:53,564 then just how do we recognize our physicians 163 00:05:53,704 --> 00:05:55,545 for doing the the wonderful things that they 164 00:05:55,545 --> 00:05:58,185 do for our communities. And so it's just 165 00:05:58,185 --> 00:06:00,504 been really cool to have my have my 166 00:06:00,504 --> 00:06:03,384 career with us experience and passion about physician 167 00:06:03,384 --> 00:06:06,189 relations and CHG allowing me to kinda put 168 00:06:06,189 --> 00:06:08,670 a road map together to, to help our 169 00:06:08,670 --> 00:06:11,629 partner HCOs that CHD Health Care works with 170 00:06:11,629 --> 00:06:14,509 across the country. And within the road map, 171 00:06:14,509 --> 00:06:16,589 we have, like, you know, obviously, definitions and 172 00:06:16,589 --> 00:06:17,089 background. 173 00:06:17,550 --> 00:06:20,044 We we kinda I try to challenge, health 174 00:06:20,044 --> 00:06:23,024 care leaders across the country with strategic reflections 175 00:06:23,164 --> 00:06:26,125 and checkup questions. One question would be, like, 176 00:06:26,125 --> 00:06:27,644 on a scale of one to ten, ten 177 00:06:27,644 --> 00:06:30,365 being the highest, what would your physicians rank 178 00:06:30,365 --> 00:06:32,544 their trust in executive leadership? 179 00:06:32,949 --> 00:06:34,710 And then we do, for quite a bit 180 00:06:34,710 --> 00:06:36,230 some of the client work that we've done 181 00:06:36,230 --> 00:06:37,910 and some past experience, we go into a 182 00:06:37,910 --> 00:06:38,810 deeper dive, 183 00:06:39,270 --> 00:06:41,589 within within the road map. So it's really 184 00:06:41,670 --> 00:06:43,050 it's been a really cool project. 185 00:06:43,910 --> 00:06:46,170 Yeah. It sounds like it, Scott. Thank you. 186 00:06:46,394 --> 00:06:48,254 And I know when you just touched on 187 00:06:48,314 --> 00:06:50,875 the area of retention, you named a few 188 00:06:50,875 --> 00:06:53,995 important pillars underneath that term. You talked about 189 00:06:53,995 --> 00:06:56,175 professional growth, well-being, compensation, 190 00:06:57,034 --> 00:06:58,254 recognizing success. 191 00:06:58,810 --> 00:07:00,009 So it sounds like there's a lot that 192 00:07:00,009 --> 00:07:02,330 goes into the retention piece. So I'd love 193 00:07:02,330 --> 00:07:03,529 if you could share a little bit more 194 00:07:03,529 --> 00:07:06,730 with our listeners about the common struggles, barriers, 195 00:07:06,730 --> 00:07:09,290 or challenges that you see organizations face when 196 00:07:09,290 --> 00:07:12,170 they're trying to develop a formal retention plan 197 00:07:12,170 --> 00:07:13,470 for physicians and APPs. 198 00:07:14,365 --> 00:07:16,605 Yeah. It's because it's really hard work, and 199 00:07:16,605 --> 00:07:18,944 it's very complex. And it really takes 200 00:07:19,404 --> 00:07:21,485 to put a formal retention plan in place, 201 00:07:21,485 --> 00:07:23,245 it really takes a a group of team 202 00:07:23,404 --> 00:07:25,725 a professional team that puts it together, puts 203 00:07:25,725 --> 00:07:27,550 it to paper, and then operationalize 204 00:07:28,009 --> 00:07:30,169 it and lives it daily across the whole 205 00:07:30,169 --> 00:07:30,669 organization. 206 00:07:31,370 --> 00:07:34,250 And, what I found fascinating is AAPPR, which 207 00:07:34,250 --> 00:07:35,949 is our, you know, our industry 208 00:07:36,810 --> 00:07:39,629 standard for the recruitment area. They actually, 209 00:07:40,225 --> 00:07:42,145 said that less than 25 or right around 210 00:07:42,145 --> 00:07:44,865 25% of health care organizations have a formal 211 00:07:44,865 --> 00:07:45,365 retention 212 00:07:46,145 --> 00:07:48,305 plan in place for their physicians, which is, 213 00:07:48,305 --> 00:07:50,064 you know, that's quite low when you think 214 00:07:50,064 --> 00:07:51,105 about that. And, 215 00:07:52,064 --> 00:07:54,410 many will say health care organizations back to 216 00:07:54,410 --> 00:07:56,490 talk I gave yesterday at a national conference, 217 00:07:56,490 --> 00:07:57,610 people would say, yeah. We're doing a little 218 00:07:57,610 --> 00:07:58,729 bit of this. We're doing a little bit 219 00:07:58,729 --> 00:07:59,389 of that. 220 00:07:59,930 --> 00:08:02,329 From what I tell people, recommend, and consult 221 00:08:02,329 --> 00:08:04,829 with is the great organizations have a retention 222 00:08:04,889 --> 00:08:07,354 plan in place that will help them thrive 223 00:08:07,354 --> 00:08:09,595 in the future, but it's, it's not easy 224 00:08:09,595 --> 00:08:10,495 work to do. 225 00:08:10,954 --> 00:08:12,814 Yeah. Absolutely. It sounds like, 226 00:08:13,595 --> 00:08:14,495 a lot of 227 00:08:14,875 --> 00:08:17,595 different areas that organizations have to pull from, 228 00:08:17,595 --> 00:08:20,520 whether it's finance, whether it's, HR and, you 229 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:21,819 know, mental health and well-being. 230 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:23,879 There's a lot that goes into that, so 231 00:08:23,879 --> 00:08:25,500 I'm sure it's no easy task. 232 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:28,360 So again, appreciate you highlighting that and also, 233 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:29,960 you know, tying that back to the roadmap 234 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:30,860 that you've developed. 235 00:08:31,639 --> 00:08:34,365 And so based on what you're you're seeing 236 00:08:34,365 --> 00:08:37,245 across hospitals and health systems, what would you 237 00:08:37,245 --> 00:08:39,485 say are the most significant forces that are 238 00:08:39,485 --> 00:08:42,285 reshaping the physician experience right now? And how 239 00:08:42,285 --> 00:08:45,024 do you think leaders should rethink their approach 240 00:08:45,245 --> 00:08:47,024 in response to some of those factors? 241 00:08:48,089 --> 00:08:50,169 Yeah. Great question. You know, the biggest forces 242 00:08:50,169 --> 00:08:51,850 is we all we all know there's a 243 00:08:51,850 --> 00:08:52,809 physician shortage, 244 00:08:53,209 --> 00:08:54,169 86,000 245 00:08:54,169 --> 00:08:55,870 by the year 2034. 246 00:08:56,649 --> 00:08:59,149 You know, you have you have, increased competition 247 00:08:59,289 --> 00:09:02,595 for physician time. You have nontraditional employers now 248 00:09:02,595 --> 00:09:04,514 getting into this market and wanting to hire 249 00:09:04,514 --> 00:09:07,235 your physicians away from you. Engagement levels are 250 00:09:07,235 --> 00:09:09,014 a little bit better, but still struggle, 251 00:09:09,634 --> 00:09:12,615 and just changing expectations, flexibility, and 252 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:15,240 and the need for flexibility. And what what 253 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:17,480 I wanted to just chat about briefly is 254 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:19,480 a couple areas is, what what we did 255 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,220 the study with our physicians because CHD employs 256 00:09:22,519 --> 00:09:25,274 thousands of physicians, and we asked them, 257 00:09:25,754 --> 00:09:27,835 you know, what's important to you and and, 258 00:09:28,795 --> 00:09:30,894 and in in your in your your physician 259 00:09:30,955 --> 00:09:31,934 career. And 260 00:09:32,235 --> 00:09:34,394 the top five you'd be surprised by this. 261 00:09:34,394 --> 00:09:36,555 The top five areas that they focused on 262 00:09:36,555 --> 00:09:38,154 or that they said were most important were 263 00:09:38,154 --> 00:09:39,295 better work life balance, 264 00:09:40,139 --> 00:09:41,519 better workplace culture, 265 00:09:41,980 --> 00:09:44,639 more support from administration, executive leadership, 266 00:09:45,179 --> 00:09:47,919 opportunity for them to professionally grow and advance. 267 00:09:48,379 --> 00:09:50,459 Sometimes I think we think physicians just go 268 00:09:50,459 --> 00:09:52,299 and they just wanna practice, but they wanna 269 00:09:52,299 --> 00:09:54,735 do different things and and grow and be 270 00:09:54,735 --> 00:09:56,995 in leadership or do research or do education, 271 00:09:57,934 --> 00:10:00,495 and then increased autonomy. And then the next 272 00:10:00,495 --> 00:10:03,615 one is is compensation. So compensation, even though 273 00:10:03,615 --> 00:10:05,774 people may say this, it's not the most 274 00:10:05,774 --> 00:10:06,274 important, 275 00:10:07,009 --> 00:10:09,190 area that physicians are focused on. 276 00:10:09,649 --> 00:10:11,669 And in fact, on the autonomy side, 277 00:10:12,129 --> 00:10:15,009 advisory board has this this great kind of 278 00:10:15,009 --> 00:10:17,169 slide and and discussion that they talk about, 279 00:10:17,169 --> 00:10:19,595 and they really talk about three areas for 280 00:10:19,595 --> 00:10:22,955 autonomy for physicians. Physicians wanna have clinical autonomy. 281 00:10:22,955 --> 00:10:24,554 They wanna be able to make the decisions 282 00:10:24,554 --> 00:10:26,394 for their for that are best for their 283 00:10:26,394 --> 00:10:28,714 for their patients. They don't want administrators like 284 00:10:28,714 --> 00:10:30,794 myself and and others to tell them how 285 00:10:30,794 --> 00:10:32,669 to take care of their patients. They wanna 286 00:10:32,669 --> 00:10:33,809 have schedule autonomy. 287 00:10:34,190 --> 00:10:35,789 They wanna spend their days in a way 288 00:10:35,789 --> 00:10:37,549 that works for their patients and the family 289 00:10:37,549 --> 00:10:39,710 and and and also themselves. So, again, that's 290 00:10:39,710 --> 00:10:41,730 kind of that work life balance, that flexibility, 291 00:10:42,029 --> 00:10:44,190 allow them to grow their practice. And then 292 00:10:44,190 --> 00:10:46,049 the last one is strategic autonomy, 293 00:10:46,750 --> 00:10:48,404 where they wanna help they want help and 294 00:10:48,404 --> 00:10:50,004 they wanna be able to shape their their 295 00:10:50,004 --> 00:10:52,164 future and and their, you know, their practice 296 00:10:52,164 --> 00:10:54,804 wherever that would be. And I actually have 297 00:10:54,804 --> 00:10:57,044 a a quite a few doctor friends, and 298 00:10:57,044 --> 00:10:58,964 we get together and and and talk we 299 00:10:58,964 --> 00:11:01,125 get together monthly and talk coffee and have 300 00:11:01,125 --> 00:11:01,625 coffee. 301 00:11:01,970 --> 00:11:03,809 And this is what they talk about. They 302 00:11:03,809 --> 00:11:06,769 talk about their autonomy in their their clinic 303 00:11:06,769 --> 00:11:08,529 and people telling them what they can and 304 00:11:08,529 --> 00:11:09,269 can't do, 305 00:11:09,649 --> 00:11:11,649 and they wanna take care of their patients. 306 00:11:11,649 --> 00:11:13,330 They wanna work hard. They wanna get back 307 00:11:13,330 --> 00:11:15,649 to the communities. And, so we, you know, 308 00:11:15,649 --> 00:11:16,629 we as organizations, 309 00:11:17,554 --> 00:11:19,554 we need to realize that physicians are humans 310 00:11:19,554 --> 00:11:21,475 like all of us. They want that balance, 311 00:11:21,475 --> 00:11:24,274 that connection, that culture, that clarity. They want 312 00:11:24,274 --> 00:11:25,894 they wanna be recognized, obviously, 313 00:11:26,674 --> 00:11:29,154 autonomy. So we really need, as health care 314 00:11:29,154 --> 00:11:31,414 organizations, oftentimes are kinda conservative. 315 00:11:31,889 --> 00:11:33,889 It's obviously changing now, but, you know, eight 316 00:11:33,889 --> 00:11:35,809 to five, Monday through Friday, that's not what 317 00:11:35,809 --> 00:11:38,129 physicians are looking for. So we need to 318 00:11:38,129 --> 00:11:41,090 be more relationship based and and, and really 319 00:11:41,090 --> 00:11:42,629 support the physician experience. 320 00:11:43,730 --> 00:11:44,629 Yeah. Absolutely. 321 00:11:45,170 --> 00:11:47,190 Scott, so much of what you've touched on, 322 00:11:47,764 --> 00:11:50,024 those high priority areas for physicians, 323 00:11:50,404 --> 00:11:52,745 so many of them tie back to culture, 324 00:11:52,804 --> 00:11:54,804 you know, whether we're talking about work life 325 00:11:54,804 --> 00:11:55,304 balance, 326 00:11:55,845 --> 00:11:58,965 actual workplace culture, support from leadership. And so 327 00:11:58,965 --> 00:12:00,884 I know leadership plays such a key role 328 00:12:00,884 --> 00:12:03,210 in the culture piece. And in your roadmap, 329 00:12:03,210 --> 00:12:04,830 you even talk about the importance 330 00:12:05,370 --> 00:12:06,509 of trust, transparency, 331 00:12:07,049 --> 00:12:08,669 and also authentic communication. 332 00:12:09,529 --> 00:12:12,350 So I'm curious to know what do physicians 333 00:12:12,410 --> 00:12:15,210 actually respond to, and what leadership behaviors or 334 00:12:15,210 --> 00:12:15,710 structures 335 00:12:16,214 --> 00:12:16,954 most reliably 336 00:12:17,254 --> 00:12:19,174 can build trust? And I guess on the 337 00:12:19,174 --> 00:12:20,875 other side of the coin too, what behaviors 338 00:12:21,014 --> 00:12:21,995 erode it quickly? 339 00:12:22,855 --> 00:12:23,995 Yeah. No. This 340 00:12:24,615 --> 00:12:26,634 is such an important area. And 341 00:12:26,934 --> 00:12:28,694 and, I used to have a lot in 342 00:12:28,694 --> 00:12:30,475 my role, my past role as 343 00:12:31,259 --> 00:12:33,420 of of overseeing physician relations and recruitment and 344 00:12:33,420 --> 00:12:34,940 onboarding. I would have docs. I would get 345 00:12:34,940 --> 00:12:36,540 to know them really well, and and they 346 00:12:36,540 --> 00:12:37,820 would say, I don't trust it, but, Scott, 347 00:12:37,820 --> 00:12:39,040 I don't trust administration. 348 00:12:39,660 --> 00:12:41,340 And I kinda challenged them and say, well, 349 00:12:41,340 --> 00:12:42,940 what do you mean by that? It's you 350 00:12:42,940 --> 00:12:45,514 you can't just say that and not give 351 00:12:45,514 --> 00:12:47,915 some definition or give some feedback as to 352 00:12:47,915 --> 00:12:49,595 what you actually mean by that. And then 353 00:12:49,595 --> 00:12:50,575 I also studied 354 00:12:51,274 --> 00:12:53,434 Frances Fry does what she calls a trust 355 00:12:53,434 --> 00:12:56,149 triangle, and she says there are a triangle 356 00:12:56,149 --> 00:12:57,990 of three areas that are important to trust. 357 00:12:57,990 --> 00:12:59,350 And and you can do this in your 358 00:12:59,350 --> 00:13:02,069 relationship with your family, with your boss, with, 359 00:13:02,549 --> 00:13:04,789 your coworkers, or the people that report to 360 00:13:04,789 --> 00:13:06,629 you. And she talks about how you have 361 00:13:06,629 --> 00:13:07,909 to be as a leader, you have to 362 00:13:07,909 --> 00:13:08,569 be authentic. 363 00:13:08,904 --> 00:13:10,424 People need to know the real you. You 364 00:13:10,424 --> 00:13:12,345 have to be empathetic to what's going on 365 00:13:12,345 --> 00:13:14,664 in their world and how how their days 366 00:13:14,664 --> 00:13:16,184 are. And then you have to be logical 367 00:13:16,184 --> 00:13:18,764 in kinda your communications and your decision making. 368 00:13:19,144 --> 00:13:21,269 And if you're often one of those, you're 369 00:13:21,269 --> 00:13:23,029 not gonna have the trust that you need. 370 00:13:23,029 --> 00:13:24,710 So, like, I can be a very authentic 371 00:13:24,710 --> 00:13:26,470 and very empathetic person, but if I just 372 00:13:26,470 --> 00:13:29,190 make these irrational decisions on a Monday morning 373 00:13:29,190 --> 00:13:31,670 and I don't talk about the why, there's 374 00:13:31,670 --> 00:13:34,514 not gonna be trust. And so quite a 375 00:13:34,514 --> 00:13:35,955 few physicians, when I would ask them, they 376 00:13:35,955 --> 00:13:38,035 would just say, well, when somebody rounds, an 377 00:13:38,035 --> 00:13:40,595 administrator rounds or executive leadership rounds, and I 378 00:13:40,595 --> 00:13:42,274 say, hey. X, y, or z is not 379 00:13:42,274 --> 00:13:43,715 working well in my clinic, and they say, 380 00:13:43,715 --> 00:13:45,475 okay. I'll check into that. Then they never 381 00:13:45,475 --> 00:13:46,915 get back to me, and there's no follow 382 00:13:46,915 --> 00:13:49,179 through. And the physician doesn't mind if the 383 00:13:49,179 --> 00:13:51,179 answer is no. They just want somebody to 384 00:13:51,179 --> 00:13:52,620 follow through and say, hey. I checked into 385 00:13:52,620 --> 00:13:54,540 this, and we can do one, two, and 386 00:13:54,540 --> 00:13:56,059 three, but we can't do four, five, and 387 00:13:56,059 --> 00:13:56,960 six, and seven. 388 00:13:57,660 --> 00:13:59,259 So that's really important. And then I think 389 00:13:59,259 --> 00:14:00,860 the other side is, as I talked about, 390 00:14:00,860 --> 00:14:02,000 is just being authentic. 391 00:14:02,684 --> 00:14:05,325 And when we're communicating, it's not about a 392 00:14:05,325 --> 00:14:07,565 really good PowerPoint slide or a really well 393 00:14:07,565 --> 00:14:10,125 written memo. It's about telling patient stories. It's 394 00:14:10,125 --> 00:14:12,845 about the why. It's about how physicians were 395 00:14:12,845 --> 00:14:15,184 involved in the decision making and the communication 396 00:14:15,325 --> 00:14:17,460 because physicians still want to be, 397 00:14:18,100 --> 00:14:20,980 communicated by their colleagues, their physician colleagues, not 398 00:14:20,980 --> 00:14:22,200 necessarily administration. 399 00:14:22,580 --> 00:14:24,120 So great question. 400 00:14:24,500 --> 00:14:26,899 Yeah. Thank you so much, Scott, for elaborating 401 00:14:26,899 --> 00:14:27,639 on that. 402 00:14:28,179 --> 00:14:29,860 And as we're winding down here, I wanna 403 00:14:29,860 --> 00:14:31,559 make sure we also touch on 404 00:14:31,875 --> 00:14:34,915 infrastructure related to supporting all of these areas 405 00:14:34,915 --> 00:14:37,235 and recommendations in the road map. I know 406 00:14:37,235 --> 00:14:39,154 that in your road map, you close it 407 00:14:39,154 --> 00:14:39,634 by, 408 00:14:40,115 --> 00:14:42,835 sharing this concept of essentially an office of 409 00:14:42,835 --> 00:14:44,695 physician and APP relations. 410 00:14:45,559 --> 00:14:48,120 So why is a structure like this gaining 411 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:50,600 traction in health care right now, and what 412 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:53,639 does it solve that traditional organizational models might 413 00:14:53,639 --> 00:14:54,940 miss most often? 414 00:14:55,639 --> 00:14:57,240 Yeah. It's it's real you know? So, yeah, 415 00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:58,679 it's I mean, it's easy to talk about 416 00:14:58,679 --> 00:15:00,200 all the thing, you know, that we just 417 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:01,695 talked about, but but but how do you 418 00:15:01,695 --> 00:15:03,455 how do you operationalize them? How do you 419 00:15:03,455 --> 00:15:05,615 implement things? And I don't know how else 420 00:15:05,615 --> 00:15:06,595 to do it besides 421 00:15:06,975 --> 00:15:08,754 creating a a structure 422 00:15:09,375 --> 00:15:11,695 that really what I would recommend and what 423 00:15:11,695 --> 00:15:12,975 I was trying to do in my past 424 00:15:12,975 --> 00:15:15,549 career was almost like a one stop shop 425 00:15:15,549 --> 00:15:17,009 for physicians and APPs. 426 00:15:17,709 --> 00:15:19,069 And if you think about it from an 427 00:15:19,069 --> 00:15:21,329 employee standpoint, I can go to human resources 428 00:15:21,549 --> 00:15:22,049 for 429 00:15:22,589 --> 00:15:24,449 my salary, for my evaluation, 430 00:15:24,750 --> 00:15:25,649 for my benefits, 431 00:15:26,029 --> 00:15:28,029 you know, PTO, etcetera. But if you're a 432 00:15:28,029 --> 00:15:28,529 physician, 433 00:15:29,045 --> 00:15:30,965 you often because the structure is kinda all 434 00:15:30,965 --> 00:15:32,644 over the place, you have to go to 435 00:15:32,644 --> 00:15:35,925 this leader first for privileging, this leader for 436 00:15:35,925 --> 00:15:38,485 compensation, this leader for PTO. And and by 437 00:15:38,485 --> 00:15:39,845 the time you're you you don't know who 438 00:15:39,845 --> 00:15:41,420 to go to, so you just kinda, you 439 00:15:41,420 --> 00:15:42,860 know, you just kinda give up to a 440 00:15:42,860 --> 00:15:43,680 certain extent. 441 00:15:44,059 --> 00:15:46,300 So what we recommend is that you create 442 00:15:46,300 --> 00:15:48,800 an office of a physician and APP relations 443 00:15:49,019 --> 00:15:51,440 that you have many of these areas, credentialing 444 00:15:51,580 --> 00:15:54,220 compensation report directly reporting up to that area. 445 00:15:54,220 --> 00:15:55,759 Obviously, recruitment and onboarding. 446 00:15:56,245 --> 00:15:57,545 Then you have very strong, 447 00:15:58,004 --> 00:15:59,945 you know, dotted line type of relationships. 448 00:16:00,485 --> 00:16:01,845 But at the end of the day, this 449 00:16:01,845 --> 00:16:03,365 is the group of people and the and 450 00:16:03,365 --> 00:16:05,285 the structure and a diet. We would recommend 451 00:16:05,285 --> 00:16:07,144 a diet where a physician and administrator 452 00:16:07,845 --> 00:16:09,690 where docs can go to when they have 453 00:16:09,690 --> 00:16:12,730 questions about burnout, about work like balance, about 454 00:16:12,730 --> 00:16:14,750 compensation, about privileging, etcetera. 455 00:16:15,289 --> 00:16:17,129 And then, you know, just to think about, 456 00:16:17,529 --> 00:16:19,709 think about this. If you're recruiting a physician 457 00:16:19,769 --> 00:16:20,269 and 458 00:16:20,585 --> 00:16:22,264 and the physician says to you to the 459 00:16:22,264 --> 00:16:24,745 recruiter, to whomever, you know, what what sets 460 00:16:24,745 --> 00:16:26,764 you apart or what's what makes your organization 461 00:16:26,904 --> 00:16:29,144 different than the competition? And you say, we 462 00:16:29,144 --> 00:16:31,544 actually have a formal retention program in place, 463 00:16:31,544 --> 00:16:33,625 doctor Smith or doctor Jones, and we're gonna 464 00:16:33,625 --> 00:16:34,985 take care of you not only on day 465 00:16:34,985 --> 00:16:36,819 one in the first ninety days, but throughout 466 00:16:36,819 --> 00:16:38,659 your whole career, and here's how we're gonna 467 00:16:38,659 --> 00:16:39,319 do that. 468 00:16:39,620 --> 00:16:41,539 And I just I were passionate about this 469 00:16:41,539 --> 00:16:42,980 because I one time I had a doc 470 00:16:42,980 --> 00:16:45,699 I really respected. We recruited him for a 471 00:16:45,699 --> 00:16:48,144 long time and his family. And after about 472 00:16:48,144 --> 00:16:49,585 three years, he came up and saw him 473 00:16:49,585 --> 00:16:50,545 in the hall, and he goes, you know, 474 00:16:50,545 --> 00:16:51,985 Scott, you guys did a great job at 475 00:16:51,985 --> 00:16:53,904 recruiting and onboarding me, but you forgot about 476 00:16:53,904 --> 00:16:56,225 me. And and I don't hear from anybody 477 00:16:56,225 --> 00:16:57,985 anymore. And that's not how I want my 478 00:16:57,985 --> 00:16:59,665 crew to evolve. And that was just kind 479 00:16:59,665 --> 00:17:01,024 of a gut check and kind of the 480 00:17:01,024 --> 00:17:03,045 the passion about bringing this all together. 481 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:05,019 Oh, absolutely. 482 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:08,279 A great example, Scott. And it sounds to 483 00:17:08,279 --> 00:17:09,099 me like 484 00:17:09,559 --> 00:17:12,359 this office of physician and APP relations, it 485 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:14,599 might look different at one organization compared to 486 00:17:14,599 --> 00:17:16,359 another, but it sounds like the most important 487 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:17,740 piece is that there are those 488 00:17:18,075 --> 00:17:19,615 those resources dedicated 489 00:17:19,994 --> 00:17:22,095 to these efforts. Do I have that right? 490 00:17:22,315 --> 00:17:24,634 Yes. Exactly. The, you know, the the physician 491 00:17:24,634 --> 00:17:25,134 experience. 492 00:17:25,674 --> 00:17:27,914 When you're a physician, this is the group 493 00:17:27,914 --> 00:17:29,434 of people that are gonna take care of 494 00:17:29,434 --> 00:17:31,034 you and and make sure you have a 495 00:17:31,034 --> 00:17:31,694 great career. 496 00:17:32,109 --> 00:17:32,929 Yeah. Fantastic. 497 00:17:33,789 --> 00:17:35,389 And, Scott, I know we've covered a lot 498 00:17:35,389 --> 00:17:37,329 of ground in this conversation, and, 499 00:17:37,710 --> 00:17:39,710 I I'm sure that once listeners are able 500 00:17:39,710 --> 00:17:41,869 to see the roadmap, they'll they'll have even 501 00:17:41,869 --> 00:17:43,789 more questions that will come up. But I 502 00:17:43,789 --> 00:17:45,230 thought it might be helpful to end our 503 00:17:45,230 --> 00:17:45,730 conversation, 504 00:17:46,745 --> 00:17:49,705 talking about next steps. So considering everything that 505 00:17:49,705 --> 00:17:51,625 we've talked about, if a health system wants 506 00:17:51,625 --> 00:17:54,265 to really improve retention in the next twelve 507 00:17:54,265 --> 00:17:56,424 to twenty four months, is there a best 508 00:17:56,424 --> 00:17:58,184 place they can start or a next step 509 00:17:58,184 --> 00:17:59,085 that you'd advise? 510 00:17:59,819 --> 00:18:02,315 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think a couple areas, 511 00:18:02,315 --> 00:18:04,460 like, three or four areas is is, first 512 00:18:04,460 --> 00:18:07,099 of all, have a very standardized and structured 513 00:18:07,099 --> 00:18:09,419 and consistent onboarding program when you bring them 514 00:18:09,419 --> 00:18:11,440 into the organization and their family. 515 00:18:11,865 --> 00:18:14,184 Put a formal retention plan in place. Don't 516 00:18:14,184 --> 00:18:15,865 just say that, well, we do a few 517 00:18:15,865 --> 00:18:17,545 of these things, and and we're doing pretty 518 00:18:17,545 --> 00:18:19,785 well right now. Put the actual plan in 519 00:18:19,785 --> 00:18:20,285 place. 520 00:18:20,825 --> 00:18:23,785 Get executive leadership visible and authentic. We talked 521 00:18:23,785 --> 00:18:26,200 about this quite a bit. Executive leadership, our 522 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:28,519 doc docs wanna know them. They wanna touch 523 00:18:28,519 --> 00:18:30,359 them, and they wanna shake their hands. They 524 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:31,880 wanna know who they are and how they 525 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:32,779 make their decisions, 526 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:35,160 and then create the like, we just talked 527 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:37,000 about, create the office of physician and AP 528 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,085 relations and and start down that don't start 529 00:18:40,085 --> 00:18:40,904 down that journey. 530 00:18:41,765 --> 00:18:42,265 Fantastic. 531 00:18:42,565 --> 00:18:44,325 Scott, I I wanna thank you so much 532 00:18:44,325 --> 00:18:46,664 for making time for Becker's today and sharing 533 00:18:46,805 --> 00:18:48,484 everything that you've shared about the road map 534 00:18:48,484 --> 00:18:49,625 and and what's ahead. 535 00:18:49,924 --> 00:18:51,525 Is there anything that we didn't touch on 536 00:18:51,525 --> 00:18:53,045 or any final thoughts that you wanted to 537 00:18:53,045 --> 00:18:54,184 leave listeners with? 538 00:18:54,690 --> 00:18:56,130 I don't no. I don't think so. I 539 00:18:56,130 --> 00:18:58,210 think I've kinda talked a lot, and obviously 540 00:18:58,210 --> 00:19:00,210 very passionate about that. More than willing to 541 00:19:00,529 --> 00:19:02,049 you know, if people wanna reach out and 542 00:19:02,049 --> 00:19:04,289 have a further conversation about anything we talked 543 00:19:04,289 --> 00:19:06,795 about or the road map or or the 544 00:19:06,795 --> 00:19:09,535 office of physician APP relations, more than happy 545 00:19:09,595 --> 00:19:10,955 more more than happy to do that. I 546 00:19:10,955 --> 00:19:12,255 would just emphasize 547 00:19:12,634 --> 00:19:13,615 strongly that 548 00:19:14,235 --> 00:19:17,355 physician relations and recruitment and retention and onboarding 549 00:19:17,355 --> 00:19:18,095 and alignment 550 00:19:18,475 --> 00:19:20,634 should be in your strategic plan as a 551 00:19:20,634 --> 00:19:21,535 as a significant 552 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:24,480 initiative each and every year because they are 553 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:26,579 the cornerstone of all health care organizations. 554 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:30,319 Great note to end on, Scott. Thank you 555 00:19:30,319 --> 00:19:32,579 again for your time and your insights today. 556 00:19:33,039 --> 00:19:34,099 And as Scott mentioned, 557 00:19:35,039 --> 00:19:36,960 we will be sure to include his information 558 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:38,914 in this description for the episode so that 559 00:19:38,914 --> 00:19:40,535 if you'd like to reach out or, 560 00:19:41,234 --> 00:19:43,075 see a copy of the roadmap, that will 561 00:19:43,075 --> 00:19:45,154 be available to you. And of course, we 562 00:19:45,154 --> 00:19:48,295 also wanna thank our podcast sponsor, CHG Healthcare. 563 00:19:49,132 --> 00:19:51,132 Listeners, be sure to tune into more podcasts 564 00:19:51,132 --> 00:19:53,932 from Becker's Healthcare by visiting our podcast page 565 00:19:53,932 --> 00:19:56,512 at beckershospitalreview.com.