1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,319 Hello. This is Ariana Porto Latin with the 2 00:00:02,319 --> 00:00:05,040 Becker's Dental and DSO review podcast. I'm thrilled 3 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:07,120 to be joined today by Travis Sick, the 4 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:09,199 cofounder and director of m and a and 5 00:00:09,279 --> 00:00:11,839 at Apex Dental Lab Group. Travis, thank you 6 00:00:11,839 --> 00:00:13,199 so much for being here today. It's great 7 00:00:13,199 --> 00:00:13,939 to have you. 8 00:00:14,705 --> 00:00:16,704 Thank you for having me, Arianna. I appreciate 9 00:00:16,704 --> 00:00:18,704 it, and it's good to be here. Yes. 10 00:00:18,704 --> 00:00:20,625 To start us off, can you introduce yourself 11 00:00:20,625 --> 00:00:22,144 for our listeners and tell us a little 12 00:00:22,144 --> 00:00:23,425 bit about your background and your role at 13 00:00:23,425 --> 00:00:23,925 Apex? 14 00:00:25,664 --> 00:00:26,564 Yeah. Absolutely. 15 00:00:27,265 --> 00:00:28,920 So as as you mentioned, my name is 16 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:30,699 Travis Zick. I'm the cofounder 17 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:34,439 and director of mergers and acquisitions with Apex 18 00:00:34,439 --> 00:00:35,739 Dental Laboratory Group. 19 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:39,100 I've been in the dental lab space since, 20 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:40,859 the the mid two thousands. 21 00:00:42,344 --> 00:00:44,844 First first running labs and and 22 00:00:45,464 --> 00:00:47,244 overseeing production and operations. 23 00:00:48,905 --> 00:00:50,604 I've done it all, sales and marketing, 24 00:00:51,625 --> 00:00:53,704 as well as as I said, running and 25 00:00:53,704 --> 00:00:54,445 and overseeing, 26 00:00:55,064 --> 00:00:57,085 you know, large dental labs. I 27 00:00:57,440 --> 00:00:59,380 started Apex in 02/2015, 28 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,100 with with a group of industry veterans. 29 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:04,959 And, we started with a vision for what 30 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:06,739 we wanted to accomplish, which 31 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:08,959 really in in our mind was trying to 32 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:11,040 create a model that that would allow us 33 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:13,744 to best serve our dentist, 34 00:01:14,125 --> 00:01:17,084 partners and their patients in going forward with 35 00:01:17,084 --> 00:01:18,604 a lot of the challenges that we were 36 00:01:18,604 --> 00:01:20,465 facing in the lab space at the time. 37 00:01:21,244 --> 00:01:23,965 And, frankly, the the company really took off. 38 00:01:24,204 --> 00:01:25,344 What started with 39 00:01:25,979 --> 00:01:27,359 four labs in the Midwest, 40 00:01:27,979 --> 00:01:29,200 is now 41 00:01:29,500 --> 00:01:31,840 16 dental labs across the country. 42 00:01:32,780 --> 00:01:36,399 We we provide product services, dental restorations, 43 00:01:36,939 --> 00:01:37,439 and 44 00:01:38,140 --> 00:01:39,519 in essentially every 45 00:01:40,234 --> 00:01:42,974 aspect, every arena, every specialty, 46 00:01:43,754 --> 00:01:46,015 of dentistry across the country. So, 47 00:01:46,555 --> 00:01:48,174 we're we're very proud of, 48 00:01:48,954 --> 00:01:51,194 of what we do, but most importantly, we 49 00:01:51,194 --> 00:01:53,135 are very appreciative and and enjoy, 50 00:01:53,579 --> 00:01:55,579 what we do and being able to work 51 00:01:55,579 --> 00:01:57,500 hand in hand with our dental partners and 52 00:01:57,500 --> 00:01:59,599 and, you know, treat their patients. 53 00:02:00,780 --> 00:02:02,219 Thank you so much for that. I'm looking 54 00:02:02,219 --> 00:02:03,280 forward to 55 00:02:03,979 --> 00:02:05,579 learning more about some of your thoughts on, 56 00:02:05,739 --> 00:02:07,340 some of the dental topics that we'll cover 57 00:02:07,340 --> 00:02:09,314 today. So first question for you here, what 58 00:02:09,395 --> 00:02:10,835 are some of the biggest issues that you're 59 00:02:10,835 --> 00:02:12,854 following in the dental industry currently? 60 00:02:14,754 --> 00:02:16,275 Well, I think, you know, for me, I 61 00:02:16,275 --> 00:02:18,215 mean, that's that's it's a two part, 62 00:02:18,594 --> 00:02:20,854 answer, I guess. First is, you know, really 63 00:02:21,074 --> 00:02:23,460 on the dental side of things, which I, 64 00:02:24,020 --> 00:02:26,099 I make it a point to to watch 65 00:02:26,099 --> 00:02:27,240 very, very closely. 66 00:02:28,340 --> 00:02:30,500 I'm I'm heavily involved with the National Dental 67 00:02:30,500 --> 00:02:31,319 Lab Association. 68 00:02:31,860 --> 00:02:33,159 I've been in many meetings, 69 00:02:33,540 --> 00:02:35,700 in my role previous role as president of 70 00:02:35,700 --> 00:02:36,360 the NADL, 71 00:02:37,364 --> 00:02:38,324 worked hand in hand, 72 00:02:38,805 --> 00:02:41,525 overtime with the ADA and and AGD and 73 00:02:41,525 --> 00:02:43,844 and other dental organizations. So I stay very 74 00:02:43,844 --> 00:02:45,064 well in tune, 75 00:02:45,685 --> 00:02:47,864 with what's happening on those fronts. And, 76 00:02:48,324 --> 00:02:50,004 you know, I I think there's a few, 77 00:02:50,324 --> 00:02:52,504 a few things, obviously, in dentistry, 78 00:02:53,099 --> 00:02:55,120 that stand out to me overall. And, 79 00:02:55,419 --> 00:02:56,000 you know, 80 00:02:56,539 --> 00:02:58,379 in number one, in in looking back, I 81 00:02:58,379 --> 00:03:01,520 mean, we've we've been dealt a fairly stagnant, 82 00:03:02,060 --> 00:03:04,300 market for the past really for the past 83 00:03:04,300 --> 00:03:06,294 several years with the exception of a a 84 00:03:06,294 --> 00:03:08,375 of a boost, you know, after the the 85 00:03:08,375 --> 00:03:09,435 COVID shutdown. 86 00:03:10,455 --> 00:03:12,455 If you look at ADA statistics, I mean, 87 00:03:12,455 --> 00:03:15,335 you'll see that, you know, overall, the last 88 00:03:15,335 --> 00:03:16,074 five years 89 00:03:17,014 --> 00:03:19,974 have been less productive than the previous five 90 00:03:19,974 --> 00:03:22,069 year stretch on on a per, 91 00:03:23,009 --> 00:03:25,430 per office or or per dentist basis. 92 00:03:25,810 --> 00:03:28,610 So our our revenue has been fairly stagnant, 93 00:03:28,610 --> 00:03:30,449 and and you hear that a lot, especially 94 00:03:30,449 --> 00:03:32,310 from, you know, from practicing dentists. 95 00:03:33,585 --> 00:03:36,224 You know? The other the other piece of 96 00:03:36,224 --> 00:03:37,365 that, of course, is, 97 00:03:38,625 --> 00:03:40,245 expenses haven't been stagnant 98 00:03:40,545 --> 00:03:42,545 in any in in any area of our 99 00:03:42,545 --> 00:03:45,105 lives and and certainly in our businesses over 100 00:03:45,105 --> 00:03:47,280 the last five years as well. I mean, 101 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:49,120 we we feel it as well as as 102 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:51,280 the dentists do as far as, you know, 103 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:52,500 inflationary pressures. 104 00:03:53,439 --> 00:03:55,439 You know, high interest rates over the last 105 00:03:55,439 --> 00:03:57,379 couple years have certainly had a detrimental, 106 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:00,324 effect on not only on growth in the 107 00:04:00,324 --> 00:04:02,344 industry in general, but also on, 108 00:04:02,965 --> 00:04:05,224 you know, on on patient acceptance 109 00:04:05,525 --> 00:04:06,745 of of larger, 110 00:04:07,125 --> 00:04:08,025 you know, cases. 111 00:04:09,044 --> 00:04:10,805 So those those have been those have been 112 00:04:10,805 --> 00:04:12,905 ongoing challenges. You know, I look at the 113 00:04:13,110 --> 00:04:14,009 at the outlook, 114 00:04:14,310 --> 00:04:15,530 for the future, again, 115 00:04:15,909 --> 00:04:16,569 put out, 116 00:04:17,189 --> 00:04:19,829 periodically by ADA, and I I continue to 117 00:04:19,829 --> 00:04:21,689 see the, you know, skepticism, 118 00:04:22,790 --> 00:04:25,644 from from the practicing dentist, both in terms 119 00:04:25,644 --> 00:04:27,485 of the dental industry as well as, you 120 00:04:27,485 --> 00:04:28,785 know, the overall economy, 121 00:04:29,485 --> 00:04:31,964 looking ahead six months. And so, of course, 122 00:04:31,964 --> 00:04:34,544 those are those are certainly, you know, current, 123 00:04:35,404 --> 00:04:38,144 you know, challenges or current concerns that we're 124 00:04:38,204 --> 00:04:40,704 we're following and and trying to deal with. 125 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:43,740 You know, another another change, 126 00:04:44,199 --> 00:04:44,939 or another, 127 00:04:46,759 --> 00:04:48,600 really just change in how we operate is 128 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:49,980 is the changing demographic 129 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:52,439 of of the dental practice and what that 130 00:04:52,439 --> 00:04:54,314 looks like. And, you know, when I got 131 00:04:54,314 --> 00:04:57,274 into the dental lab space, you know, twenty 132 00:04:57,274 --> 00:04:58,014 years ago, 133 00:04:58,954 --> 00:05:01,134 there were far more, you know, sole practitioners. 134 00:05:01,274 --> 00:05:03,435 There were, you know, far more independent dentists, 135 00:05:03,435 --> 00:05:06,014 and and, obviously, those those things are changing. 136 00:05:07,529 --> 00:05:09,849 Still today, only about 16% 137 00:05:09,849 --> 00:05:12,009 of dentists are are actually part of a 138 00:05:12,009 --> 00:05:14,430 DSO, and, again, according to the ADA. 139 00:05:15,689 --> 00:05:17,709 But over 50% of dentists, 140 00:05:18,729 --> 00:05:21,425 are part of a multi doc practice or 141 00:05:21,425 --> 00:05:23,664 a small group practice. So the, you know, 142 00:05:23,664 --> 00:05:25,985 the model of of how the practices are 143 00:05:25,985 --> 00:05:28,384 functioning is is different, and and that impacts 144 00:05:28,384 --> 00:05:29,745 us on the lab side as well as 145 00:05:29,745 --> 00:05:31,584 far as how we interact with our with 146 00:05:31,584 --> 00:05:34,040 our clients. And and the last piece really 147 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,220 on the demographic side, of course, is is, 148 00:05:36,439 --> 00:05:37,560 you know, really the changing, 149 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:41,660 age and and experience level of of dentists 150 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:44,120 as over the past few years now as 151 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:46,360 as the the baby boomers, so so to 152 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:48,915 speak, have have, moved on. 153 00:05:49,615 --> 00:05:51,795 You know, you the the number of dentists 154 00:05:51,855 --> 00:05:54,355 practicing in the country has stayed fairly stable, 155 00:05:54,975 --> 00:05:56,574 but that's because we have so many young 156 00:05:56,574 --> 00:05:58,335 dentists coming out of school to take their 157 00:05:58,335 --> 00:05:59,074 place. And 158 00:05:59,615 --> 00:06:02,495 and, certainly, you know, dealing with dealing with 159 00:06:02,495 --> 00:06:05,189 a a different a different agent experience level 160 00:06:05,189 --> 00:06:07,229 is is a diff is certainly a different, 161 00:06:07,669 --> 00:06:10,810 challenges, but also different different advantages, different opportunities 162 00:06:10,949 --> 00:06:13,129 in in how we all work together. So, 163 00:06:13,430 --> 00:06:14,789 you know, those are those are some of 164 00:06:14,789 --> 00:06:16,389 the issues on the dental side that that 165 00:06:16,389 --> 00:06:18,889 certainly we're we're addressing and and working 166 00:06:19,935 --> 00:06:22,175 through. In the lab space, you know, there's 167 00:06:22,175 --> 00:06:23,154 there's a whole another 168 00:06:23,535 --> 00:06:25,214 whole another level and a and a whole 169 00:06:25,214 --> 00:06:26,035 another list 170 00:06:26,574 --> 00:06:29,615 of of, concerns and challenges in addition to, 171 00:06:29,615 --> 00:06:31,134 you know, some of the same that I 172 00:06:31,134 --> 00:06:33,420 mentioned. But the dental lab space as a 173 00:06:33,420 --> 00:06:34,960 whole has really been 174 00:06:35,420 --> 00:06:36,319 in a consolidation 175 00:06:36,860 --> 00:06:37,360 period, 176 00:06:37,980 --> 00:06:39,439 I guess, similar to dentistry. 177 00:06:40,460 --> 00:06:42,220 Going back to the to the mid two 178 00:06:42,220 --> 00:06:42,720 thousands, 179 00:06:43,259 --> 00:06:45,100 you know, the number of dental labs in 180 00:06:45,100 --> 00:06:47,964 the in The United States has consistently declined. 181 00:06:47,964 --> 00:06:48,625 In fact, 182 00:06:49,085 --> 00:06:50,944 we in in 2024, 183 00:06:51,645 --> 00:06:54,205 we had the our twentieth year in a 184 00:06:54,205 --> 00:06:57,165 row of contraction in terms of the number 185 00:06:57,165 --> 00:06:59,345 of operating dental labs in The US. 186 00:06:59,805 --> 00:07:00,865 So it's been a, 187 00:07:01,289 --> 00:07:03,129 you know, it's it's been a stark change 188 00:07:03,129 --> 00:07:05,050 since when from the time I started to 189 00:07:05,050 --> 00:07:05,550 today. 190 00:07:06,250 --> 00:07:07,069 We actually 191 00:07:07,610 --> 00:07:09,069 are under 5,000 192 00:07:09,289 --> 00:07:11,529 dental labs in The US as of the 193 00:07:11,529 --> 00:07:13,069 2024, 194 00:07:13,449 --> 00:07:15,370 which was, which is kind of a stark 195 00:07:15,370 --> 00:07:16,829 reality to see. 196 00:07:18,144 --> 00:07:19,985 At the same time, you know, we are 197 00:07:20,064 --> 00:07:22,865 we're as an industry, we're obviously we're doing 198 00:07:22,865 --> 00:07:25,024 more work than ever. So that's, you know, 199 00:07:25,024 --> 00:07:28,564 that's the positive. There's there's fewer fewer labs 200 00:07:28,865 --> 00:07:31,044 and and fewer technicians, fewer employees, 201 00:07:32,050 --> 00:07:33,970 But it's just it it puts more pressure 202 00:07:33,970 --> 00:07:34,470 on 203 00:07:34,850 --> 00:07:37,329 on us, to continue to find ways to 204 00:07:37,329 --> 00:07:39,829 be more efficient, be more productive, and certainly, 205 00:07:40,050 --> 00:07:42,529 you know, the utilization and increase in technology 206 00:07:42,529 --> 00:07:44,449 and things that have come along throughout the 207 00:07:44,449 --> 00:07:44,949 years, 208 00:07:45,855 --> 00:07:48,035 have have have allowed us to do that. 209 00:07:48,894 --> 00:07:49,394 But, 210 00:07:49,774 --> 00:07:52,254 you know, the other the other big, challenge 211 00:07:52,574 --> 00:07:54,735 ongoing challenge on the lab side of things 212 00:07:54,735 --> 00:07:57,214 is is really and this this goes both 213 00:07:57,214 --> 00:07:58,814 ways, both in dental on the on the 214 00:07:58,814 --> 00:08:00,654 dental practice side as well as the lab 215 00:08:00,654 --> 00:08:02,629 side, and that comes back to, 216 00:08:03,589 --> 00:08:04,089 transparency 217 00:08:04,629 --> 00:08:06,250 and and disclosure, 218 00:08:07,430 --> 00:08:08,089 you know, 219 00:08:08,470 --> 00:08:08,970 over 220 00:08:09,270 --> 00:08:09,770 roughly, 221 00:08:10,870 --> 00:08:12,569 because this is an estimate, but, 222 00:08:13,444 --> 00:08:15,064 a little over 40% 223 00:08:15,365 --> 00:08:16,425 of all the dental 224 00:08:16,964 --> 00:08:17,464 prosthetics 225 00:08:17,925 --> 00:08:20,485 sold by labs in The US are not 226 00:08:20,485 --> 00:08:23,064 produced in The US. They're produced overseas. 227 00:08:24,164 --> 00:08:24,664 And, 228 00:08:25,125 --> 00:08:26,024 there is a 229 00:08:26,550 --> 00:08:29,449 general lack of of transparency in that process 230 00:08:29,509 --> 00:08:31,290 that goes all the way from the lab 231 00:08:31,509 --> 00:08:32,570 through to the patient. 232 00:08:33,190 --> 00:08:33,690 And, 233 00:08:34,309 --> 00:08:36,230 you know, we've as an as a dental 234 00:08:36,230 --> 00:08:39,029 lab industry, we've we've fought for years. I 235 00:08:39,029 --> 00:08:40,970 I did when I was NADL president 236 00:08:41,644 --> 00:08:44,384 to to try to get more states involved 237 00:08:44,445 --> 00:08:45,264 with regulating 238 00:08:45,644 --> 00:08:48,865 the lab space and requiring disclosure and transparency 239 00:08:49,644 --> 00:08:51,264 from the lab to the dentist 240 00:08:51,725 --> 00:08:53,504 so that the dentists know, 241 00:08:53,884 --> 00:08:56,044 what they're getting and where it's coming from. 242 00:08:56,044 --> 00:08:59,000 And, you know, and, unfortunately, in in today, 243 00:09:00,580 --> 00:09:03,299 we still only have, Oregon state of Oregon 244 00:09:03,299 --> 00:09:06,340 just passed the legislation reach recently, which was 245 00:09:06,340 --> 00:09:06,840 great, 246 00:09:07,460 --> 00:09:09,940 but we still we only have 11 states 247 00:09:09,940 --> 00:09:11,240 in The United States. 248 00:09:11,554 --> 00:09:13,254 So 11 states out of 50 249 00:09:13,714 --> 00:09:15,495 where dental labs are required 250 00:09:16,115 --> 00:09:16,615 to 251 00:09:17,315 --> 00:09:18,694 disclose to the dentist 252 00:09:19,714 --> 00:09:21,975 where their prod product is made. 253 00:09:22,355 --> 00:09:24,740 The dentists that then are are typically are 254 00:09:24,740 --> 00:09:27,139 required to have that information. So, really, they're 255 00:09:27,139 --> 00:09:28,580 they're the ones that need to make sure 256 00:09:28,580 --> 00:09:29,480 they have it. 257 00:09:30,100 --> 00:09:32,279 But I know that that's not being done, 258 00:09:32,899 --> 00:09:35,220 in as it as it should be, especially 259 00:09:35,220 --> 00:09:37,485 with, you know, some of the larger players. 260 00:09:37,865 --> 00:09:39,865 And so there's, you know, there's some concern 261 00:09:39,865 --> 00:09:40,365 there. 262 00:09:41,865 --> 00:09:44,024 As well, you know, there's seven states in 263 00:09:44,024 --> 00:09:45,085 The US where 264 00:09:45,705 --> 00:09:48,764 dentists are required to work with a registered 265 00:09:48,825 --> 00:09:50,665 lab, a a lab that is registered to 266 00:09:50,665 --> 00:09:52,424 do business in that state. And and there 267 00:09:52,424 --> 00:09:54,850 again, you know, with the the increase in 268 00:09:54,850 --> 00:09:57,970 competition across the country with dental labs in 269 00:09:57,970 --> 00:09:59,809 any state being able to work with dentists 270 00:09:59,809 --> 00:10:01,889 in any state because of especially with the 271 00:10:01,889 --> 00:10:03,509 rise in in aural scanning, 272 00:10:04,610 --> 00:10:05,110 usage. 273 00:10:05,754 --> 00:10:07,834 You know, some of these, a lot of 274 00:10:07,834 --> 00:10:08,235 these, 275 00:10:08,794 --> 00:10:09,294 transparency 276 00:10:09,834 --> 00:10:12,174 regulations are are not being followed. And, 277 00:10:12,634 --> 00:10:14,634 so that that's an ongoing concern. I think 278 00:10:14,634 --> 00:10:16,634 that we are you know, we wanna continue 279 00:10:16,634 --> 00:10:18,954 to bring more education and more light to 280 00:10:18,954 --> 00:10:19,774 that and, 281 00:10:20,299 --> 00:10:23,039 really, again, so that that the doctors know 282 00:10:23,740 --> 00:10:24,639 what they're getting, 283 00:10:25,019 --> 00:10:27,179 what's in it, where it's coming from, and 284 00:10:27,179 --> 00:10:30,059 and, you know, who's responsible if something goes 285 00:10:30,059 --> 00:10:30,559 wrong. 286 00:10:32,304 --> 00:10:34,225 Yeah. Thank you so much for providing all 287 00:10:34,225 --> 00:10:36,384 that insight. A lot to cover there. I 288 00:10:36,384 --> 00:10:38,065 love what you mentioned about the the need 289 00:10:38,065 --> 00:10:40,705 for transparency as well. I know you mentioned 290 00:10:40,705 --> 00:10:42,565 just, you know, only a few states, 291 00:10:43,024 --> 00:10:45,345 have legislation to address that. What do you 292 00:10:45,345 --> 00:10:46,725 think has led to, 293 00:10:47,370 --> 00:10:49,710 I guess, so few states passing that legislation, 294 00:10:49,769 --> 00:10:51,450 and why aren't there more states doing that 295 00:10:51,450 --> 00:10:51,950 now? 296 00:10:53,769 --> 00:10:55,769 It's a it's a length any any type 297 00:10:55,769 --> 00:10:57,690 of legislation is a is a lengthy and 298 00:10:57,690 --> 00:11:00,855 expensive process, of course. Mhmm. And it really 299 00:11:01,014 --> 00:11:02,534 I think it comes back to, 300 00:11:03,174 --> 00:11:05,654 the states that we've seen successfully pass it. 301 00:11:05,654 --> 00:11:07,334 And, again, I mentioned or the state of 302 00:11:07,334 --> 00:11:09,595 Oregon who just recently passed it. 303 00:11:10,134 --> 00:11:12,695 State of Washington was the previous one that 304 00:11:12,695 --> 00:11:15,600 that passed legislation. That was back in 02/2019. 305 00:11:16,539 --> 00:11:18,000 And, again, it comes down 306 00:11:18,620 --> 00:11:20,620 to there has to be a, you know, 307 00:11:20,620 --> 00:11:21,759 a group of stakeholders 308 00:11:22,139 --> 00:11:24,639 within the individual state, first of all, 309 00:11:25,179 --> 00:11:27,019 whether that's the, you know, people that are 310 00:11:27,019 --> 00:11:28,460 involved in the dental dental, 311 00:11:28,779 --> 00:11:31,475 board or the the dental, regulation within the 312 00:11:31,475 --> 00:11:31,975 state. 313 00:11:32,595 --> 00:11:35,174 You know, a group of lab lab folks 314 00:11:35,394 --> 00:11:38,034 combined with with, you know, state dental society 315 00:11:38,034 --> 00:11:40,274 folks that all get together and say we 316 00:11:40,274 --> 00:11:42,434 need to champion this process. It it needs 317 00:11:42,434 --> 00:11:45,519 to happen. And then, of course, you unfortunately, 318 00:11:45,660 --> 00:11:48,300 in the political world, you know, you typically 319 00:11:48,300 --> 00:11:50,379 have to spend tens of thousands of dollars 320 00:11:50,379 --> 00:11:50,879 lobbying, 321 00:11:51,340 --> 00:11:52,160 to be able 322 00:11:52,860 --> 00:11:55,100 to get somebody on board with with writing, 323 00:11:55,500 --> 00:11:57,420 with writing some type of legislation or to 324 00:11:57,420 --> 00:11:58,879 get it to get it through. 325 00:11:59,245 --> 00:12:01,404 And it's like I said, it's expensive. It's 326 00:12:01,404 --> 00:12:03,725 time consuming. It takes a lot of, you 327 00:12:03,725 --> 00:12:05,804 know, a lot of stick to itiveness and 328 00:12:05,804 --> 00:12:07,725 time that that, you know, most people don't 329 00:12:07,725 --> 00:12:08,225 have. 330 00:12:08,845 --> 00:12:10,925 I will say as as an industry, the 331 00:12:10,925 --> 00:12:13,485 National Association of Dental Labs, which, again, I 332 00:12:13,485 --> 00:12:16,070 I served as president of in 02/2019. 333 00:12:16,690 --> 00:12:17,990 You know, the the NADL 334 00:12:18,769 --> 00:12:19,910 is very supportive 335 00:12:20,610 --> 00:12:22,389 of any state and, 336 00:12:23,169 --> 00:12:25,410 or yeah. Of any state, sorry, that wants 337 00:12:25,410 --> 00:12:27,169 to to get this process going and see 338 00:12:27,169 --> 00:12:29,669 it through, both financially as well as, 339 00:12:30,075 --> 00:12:33,115 you know, providing, some leadership and and know 340 00:12:33,115 --> 00:12:35,054 how to get it done. They have NADL 341 00:12:35,115 --> 00:12:36,415 has an in house counsel, 342 00:12:36,794 --> 00:12:39,434 who who helps, you know, kinda guide folks 343 00:12:39,434 --> 00:12:40,815 through this process. But, 344 00:12:42,170 --> 00:12:43,290 I can tell you that I'm 345 00:12:43,930 --> 00:12:45,470 in in 02/2019, 346 00:12:46,410 --> 00:12:48,410 I was in the state of Washington to 347 00:12:48,410 --> 00:12:50,730 speak to their dental lab association, and I 348 00:12:50,730 --> 00:12:52,190 met with the folks from Oregon. 349 00:12:52,730 --> 00:12:54,855 And they were excited to get get a 350 00:12:54,855 --> 00:12:57,595 similar bill passed in Oregon to what Washington 351 00:12:57,654 --> 00:12:58,554 had just passed. 352 00:12:58,934 --> 00:13:00,615 And here we are six years later, and 353 00:13:00,615 --> 00:13:01,914 it just finally happened. 354 00:13:02,375 --> 00:13:04,534 So that's that's the biggest challenge. It's just 355 00:13:04,534 --> 00:13:06,554 time and money to to see it through. 356 00:13:07,660 --> 00:13:08,399 Wow. Yeah. 357 00:13:09,179 --> 00:13:10,940 You might have some similar answers to this 358 00:13:10,940 --> 00:13:12,540 next question, but I'm curious to know what 359 00:13:12,540 --> 00:13:13,899 are you most excited about when it comes 360 00:13:13,899 --> 00:13:15,740 to dentistry right now, and what makes you 361 00:13:15,740 --> 00:13:16,240 nervous? 362 00:13:18,139 --> 00:13:19,899 Yeah. I mean, it's a lot it's a 363 00:13:19,899 --> 00:13:21,600 lot of the same answers, I suppose. 364 00:13:22,955 --> 00:13:25,754 You know, I I'm very bullish on on 365 00:13:25,754 --> 00:13:27,434 the industry as a whole. You know, I 366 00:13:27,434 --> 00:13:29,674 just listed off a whole laundry list of 367 00:13:29,674 --> 00:13:32,315 of concerns and things that, you know, have 368 00:13:32,315 --> 00:13:34,254 been challenges for us going back. 369 00:13:34,955 --> 00:13:36,715 You know, I I ran a dental lab 370 00:13:36,715 --> 00:13:39,579 through the great recession. I ran obviously ran 371 00:13:39,579 --> 00:13:41,899 a a large dental comp dental lab company 372 00:13:41,899 --> 00:13:43,039 through COVID. 373 00:13:43,820 --> 00:13:44,320 So 374 00:13:44,779 --> 00:13:46,720 we've had a lot of challenges, but 375 00:13:47,500 --> 00:13:49,759 I'm very bullish on the industry. I think 376 00:13:50,139 --> 00:13:52,220 I think the future is very bright. And 377 00:13:52,220 --> 00:13:53,199 within dentistry 378 00:13:54,195 --> 00:13:55,955 and within, you know, on the lab side 379 00:13:55,955 --> 00:13:57,394 of things that we deal with, I think 380 00:13:57,394 --> 00:14:00,035 there's you know, it's exciting to see the 381 00:14:00,035 --> 00:14:00,535 ongoing, 382 00:14:01,875 --> 00:14:02,375 advancements 383 00:14:03,315 --> 00:14:05,955 in materials, in technology, and the types of 384 00:14:05,955 --> 00:14:07,495 procedures that are being done. 385 00:14:07,799 --> 00:14:09,639 You know, we we really enjoy on the 386 00:14:09,639 --> 00:14:10,459 lab side. 387 00:14:10,839 --> 00:14:12,379 Our role has transformed 388 00:14:12,759 --> 00:14:14,459 so much from when I first started, 389 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:16,679 where, you know, we're 390 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:19,339 it it's a very collaborative relationship 391 00:14:19,799 --> 00:14:21,794 between the lab and the dentist, 392 00:14:22,195 --> 00:14:24,214 versus what it was twenty years ago. 393 00:14:24,995 --> 00:14:27,075 And and, you know, a big part of 394 00:14:27,075 --> 00:14:29,174 that and a big part of the excitement, 395 00:14:29,714 --> 00:14:31,714 and also some of the concern or or 396 00:14:31,714 --> 00:14:33,975 nervousness really, I think, comes from technology. 397 00:14:35,075 --> 00:14:36,375 You know, we're all, 398 00:14:36,980 --> 00:14:39,300 I think, you know, on the very, very, 399 00:14:39,300 --> 00:14:41,139 very leading or not leading edge, I should 400 00:14:41,139 --> 00:14:43,720 say, the very, very precipice of, 401 00:14:44,100 --> 00:14:45,320 you know, what does 402 00:14:46,259 --> 00:14:49,540 AI technology do not only in in this 403 00:14:49,540 --> 00:14:51,460 industry, but in the in the world in 404 00:14:51,460 --> 00:14:54,245 the next, you know, five, ten, fifteen, twenty 405 00:14:54,245 --> 00:14:54,745 years. 406 00:14:55,845 --> 00:14:58,004 You know, I think some of those things 407 00:14:58,004 --> 00:15:00,024 and some of the some of the new, 408 00:15:00,164 --> 00:15:02,825 again, new procedures, new equipment, new technology, 409 00:15:04,129 --> 00:15:06,070 It keeps it exciting. It also, 410 00:15:07,009 --> 00:15:09,330 you know, again, also also makes you nervous 411 00:15:09,330 --> 00:15:12,370 and and provides challenges. I I I truly 412 00:15:12,370 --> 00:15:15,570 believe that, you know, we're we're gonna continue 413 00:15:15,570 --> 00:15:16,709 to see the same 414 00:15:17,235 --> 00:15:19,315 consolidation that we've been seeing. You know? That's 415 00:15:19,315 --> 00:15:20,455 why I mentioned earlier. 416 00:15:20,835 --> 00:15:22,595 You know? We continue to have fewer dental 417 00:15:22,595 --> 00:15:24,375 labs. We continue to have fewer 418 00:15:24,754 --> 00:15:25,254 people, 419 00:15:25,634 --> 00:15:28,455 fewer employees in the dental lab space, but 420 00:15:29,149 --> 00:15:31,709 we're doing more work than ever. We're treat 421 00:15:31,789 --> 00:15:34,450 we're helping doctors treat more patients than ever. 422 00:15:34,750 --> 00:15:36,830 And, you know, I think that's only gonna 423 00:15:36,830 --> 00:15:38,910 continue, and I I think that, 424 00:15:39,470 --> 00:15:42,190 you know, the the collaborative relationship between the 425 00:15:42,190 --> 00:15:44,190 lab and and the dental office and, 426 00:15:45,245 --> 00:15:47,245 you know, how we all work together over 427 00:15:47,245 --> 00:15:49,804 the next ten, fifteen, twenty years is really 428 00:15:49,804 --> 00:15:51,985 gonna be exciting to see how that develops. 429 00:15:53,485 --> 00:15:55,585 Yeah. Well, great to hear about your optimism 430 00:15:55,644 --> 00:15:58,089 there. And and, you know, despite some some 431 00:15:58,089 --> 00:15:59,769 of the challenges and concerns that you shared 432 00:15:59,769 --> 00:16:01,690 also, I think that there are a lot 433 00:16:01,690 --> 00:16:03,210 of other dental leaders who kinda share the 434 00:16:03,210 --> 00:16:03,950 same sentiments. 435 00:16:04,809 --> 00:16:07,470 So, yeah, definitely interesting to to discuss that. 436 00:16:07,690 --> 00:16:09,529 With all the changes in mind that you 437 00:16:09,529 --> 00:16:11,529 mentioned and everything that the industry is going 438 00:16:11,529 --> 00:16:13,434 through right now, My next question for you 439 00:16:13,434 --> 00:16:14,955 here is what will the most effective health 440 00:16:14,955 --> 00:16:17,034 care health care leaders need to be successful 441 00:16:17,034 --> 00:16:18,575 in the next two to three years? 442 00:16:20,554 --> 00:16:22,014 Well, that's a great question. 443 00:16:23,274 --> 00:16:25,115 You know, in the next two to three 444 00:16:25,115 --> 00:16:26,190 years, I think, 445 00:16:26,590 --> 00:16:28,909 the most successful health care leaders are are 446 00:16:28,909 --> 00:16:29,809 going to need, 447 00:16:31,309 --> 00:16:32,769 to be flexible, pliable, 448 00:16:33,309 --> 00:16:35,090 and visionary. I think, 449 00:16:35,470 --> 00:16:38,429 you know, over the next couple years, for 450 00:16:38,429 --> 00:16:41,250 sure, I I foresee, you know, ongoing challenges 451 00:16:41,309 --> 00:16:43,404 with the continuation of some of the things 452 00:16:43,404 --> 00:16:44,464 that we've talked about. 453 00:16:44,845 --> 00:16:46,365 So on the in the in the short 454 00:16:46,365 --> 00:16:48,625 term, you're, you know, you're worrying or dealing 455 00:16:49,085 --> 00:16:50,764 as a as a leader of your of 456 00:16:50,764 --> 00:16:51,585 your company. 457 00:16:51,964 --> 00:16:54,720 You're you're dealing with these immediate concerns and 458 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,279 immediate challenges. But at the same time, when 459 00:16:57,279 --> 00:16:59,519 we look out and see what's coming on 460 00:16:59,519 --> 00:17:00,179 the horizon, 461 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:02,500 you know, we have to be 462 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:05,599 visionary to to try to see where and 463 00:17:05,599 --> 00:17:07,039 and how we can fit some of those 464 00:17:07,039 --> 00:17:09,434 things in and continue to improve and also 465 00:17:09,434 --> 00:17:11,914 be flexible to understand that we we're gonna 466 00:17:11,914 --> 00:17:13,934 make some mistakes in implementation 467 00:17:14,474 --> 00:17:16,394 of of some of these things. And how 468 00:17:16,394 --> 00:17:18,234 do we change? How do we continue to 469 00:17:18,234 --> 00:17:19,214 to stay ahead? 470 00:17:20,714 --> 00:17:21,214 Certainly, 471 00:17:21,515 --> 00:17:23,809 you know, there's a lot of discussion and 472 00:17:23,809 --> 00:17:26,049 a lot of concern about the overall health 473 00:17:26,049 --> 00:17:27,190 care industry 474 00:17:27,570 --> 00:17:29,890 outside of just dentistry in The United States. 475 00:17:29,890 --> 00:17:32,930 And and, you know, obviously, there's gonna continue 476 00:17:32,930 --> 00:17:35,490 to be ongoing discussions and challenges, and, you 477 00:17:35,490 --> 00:17:38,375 know, we'll we'll see how if and how, 478 00:17:38,755 --> 00:17:42,434 any any significant changes are legislated. But that's 479 00:17:42,434 --> 00:17:44,275 why I say I think for us and 480 00:17:44,275 --> 00:17:46,615 for anybody in in any health care field, 481 00:17:46,835 --> 00:17:48,515 the biggest thing over the next two to 482 00:17:48,515 --> 00:17:50,434 three years is is really gonna have to 483 00:17:50,434 --> 00:17:52,994 be, you know, flexibility and and vision and 484 00:17:52,994 --> 00:17:53,369 adaptability. 485 00:17:55,369 --> 00:17:55,869 Great. 486 00:17:56,250 --> 00:17:57,369 Well, that is all I have for you 487 00:17:57,369 --> 00:17:59,130 today, Travis. Thank you so much for joining 488 00:17:59,130 --> 00:18:00,890 us. It's been a pleasure speaking with you 489 00:18:00,890 --> 00:18:02,730 and covering all these topics. I'm looking forward 490 00:18:02,730 --> 00:18:04,089 to connecting with you again in the future 491 00:18:04,089 --> 00:18:04,750 as well. 492 00:18:05,049 --> 00:18:07,130 Absolutely. I appreciate all you guys do and 493 00:18:07,130 --> 00:18:09,875 and appreciate you inviting me on today. So 494 00:18:09,875 --> 00:18:10,775 thank you, Ariana. 495 00:18:11,154 --> 00:18:12,595 Yes. Of course. Enjoy the rest of your 496 00:18:12,595 --> 00:18:13,095 day. 497 00:18:13,794 --> 00:18:15,894 You too. Take care. Bye bye.