- Hey everyone, this is Erica Khal
with Becker's Hospital Review,
and thank you all so much
to our listeners tuning into another episode
of the Becker's Healthcare podcast series.
In today's conversation, we're joined by Gary Salman, CEO
of Black Talent Security,
and Dan Presta Guard, CTO of Specialty Dental Brands.
Dan and Gary, thank you both so much
for taking the time to be here today.
- Thanks for having, you're very welcome. Thanks.
- So super hot topic right now, obviously with, with all
of the events we're seeing around cybersecurity.
So how should DSOs really be thinking about cybersecurity,
particularly with the rise
of all the attacks we've seen within the
industry over the past year?
- Yeah, I think the best way to look at it is
through the lens of risk.
Um, and I typically break it down into three
primary categories.
You have compliance, legal, and operational.
And we know in the healthcare space,
there is a tremendous amount of, uh,
protected health information both on these networks
as well as in the cloud.
So in almost all ransomware cases that we deal with,
and what the industry sees is a theft of patient data.
So one of the modus operandi that the threat actors,
you know, AKA the hackers do is they not only encrypt the
network with ransomware, which causes a whole bunch
of operational issues, which we'll talk about,
but they have a goal of trying to steal as much data
as possible, and that includes patient data.
And when they steal the patient data,
that then triggers compliance issues around hipaa.
So the threat actors know that when they walk away with some
or all of your patient data,
there's an extremely high likelihood that you're going
to in fact pay the ransom demand
because you do not want that patient data,
uh, released to the public.
Um, and they also understand
that you're gonna have some compliance issues to deal with.
So you can have state regulatory issues, uh, related
to laws within the states that these patients reside,
or the practice or organization operates.
And then obviously you have hipaa, uh,
issues at the federal level.
Um, from the legal perspective, there's always the risk
of future class action lawsuits, uh, levied by the patients
that were impacted by the breach.
So that's something to consider,
and a lot of DSOs don't realize that that is now a thing.
And then one of the biggest impacts is really operational.
Um, regardless of backups, cloud technology,
you know, and some other things that DSOs have in place,
what we typically see, you know, regardless of size
of the DSO, uh, A DSO typically
experiences a two to five week outage of their operations,
mostly due to the fact that, uh, majority
of ransomware strains actually damage the operating
systems of the computers.
Um, and the practice can't use the computers
to either run their practice management software locally on
their own server or connect to cloud technology.
Um, and it causes a huge burden on the organization.
And if you do, just some of, you know, some back
of the napkin math and do a quick calculation
and understand, you know,
what you're producing on a daily basis
and multi multiply that by 10 to 50 days, your operational
and financial impact is going to be significant.
Um, I've never really seen a situation where, uh,
a practice has, has been down for less than a couple days.
There have been some, you know, rare cases where
a small practice can go out
and grab some laptops, bring 'em in
and connect to cloud technology
if the cloud hasn't been impacted.
But our experiences, most DSOs are down
for an extended period of time.
So, I mean, those are three primary categories that,
you know, DSOs have to, you know, think about related to,
uh, cybersecurity and the impact of a ransomware attack
or, um, data theft.
- Yeah, I, I agree, uh, completely with
what Gary said there.
Uh, thinking about cybersecurity in terms
of risk is the right way to go.
And in this case, if you think of it in those terms,
what goes wrong?
What happens if it goes wrong?
And then for security, for compliance, for all
of these things that can be existential, right?
This is existential risk.
We might not be around long if this happens to you.
Um, and so it really does need to be taken seriously.
- Oh, yeah. Thank you both
for touching on those three key areas.
So it really sounds like you can create
challenges across the board.
And Dan, as you mentioned, depending on, you know, what sort
of attack happens can really be an existential challenge
or turn into an existential problem.
And Gary, I'm, I'm glad you mentioned the,
the class actions lawsuit component.
I think it's something that we sometimes,
especially in the dental space, might not hear
as much about in terms of thinking about the risks next.
Can you also speak to the value
of having a third party assessment
and continuous monitoring within your digital environment?
- This is Dan. I mean, I, I think that it's
a requirement these days.
You need to have it be constantly monitored,
constantly updated.
The, I can tell you that the hackers
and the people that are trying to get into your data
and get into your information, uh, are not taking time off.
And so they're constantly trying to scan.
I mean, we see in the, in the reports all the time
that the environment's constantly being scanned
and people are looking for holes.
And with AI being what it is today,
it's only gonna get worse.
Where you start to get these vectors, these approaches
into the system are just gonna keep getting smarter.
Um, and they're gonna keep getting more targeted.
They're gonna know more about you and,
and what you're doing and how you behave.
Um, so this is only gonna get worse.
And so it really is a, uh, constant discipline
that needs to be in place.
Constant scanning, constant, uh, third party assessment
and making sure that you're up to date
and all things with the, the basics first,
but then the advanced things as well,
and make sure that you're doing things also,
like educating your, your population, um,
doing things like ethical hacking and, and phishing.
- Yeah, absolutely.
So really having the mindset
for dsso is a really viewing this, having the position
that this is a constant, a constant risk.
Getting in a little bit deeper, can you speak to how a cyber
security partner can actually work
with current IT resources?
- So one of the things that we see in many DSOs and,
and almost regardless of size, you know,
whether you're you're five locations
or 500 is the IT
department typically is responsible
for keeping the network up and running, right?
Making sure the servers are functioning properly,
make sure they have access to the internet
so they can access their cloud technology and,
and communications, et cetera.
And typically what we don't see is much of a
proactive cybersecurity approach, meaning they're,
they're typically running around putting out fires,
onboarding new acquisitions, upgrading hardware,
keeping software up to up-to-date, et cetera.
And, and, and Dan kind of mentioned this previously,
but the hackers are constantly attacking the network and,
and looking for these holes and vulnerabilities.
And typically what we see in DSOs of all sizes,
they don't have the tools, the technology, the resources
to be able to do those types of tests, right?
Most DSOs have defensive measures in place, right?
You're talking, you know, antivirus software,
some basic patching, et cetera.
But there's no technology in place that
actively monitors the network for security holes, right?
Vulnerabilities and vulnerabilities are kind
of those unlock doors
and windows that a hacker's gonna scan for find and,
and break into the network.
Um, and because they lack these tools, there's not a lot
of visibility or clarity into
where they actually have security risks.
So I think a good partnership with a DSOs internal
or external IT resources revolves
around using tools
and human intellect to identify risk, right?
Through vulnerabilities in firewalls,
vulnerabilities in in endpoints,
meaning computers like laptops, servers, workstations,
providing, as Dan alluded to training, right?
Cybersecurity awareness training is a really,
really key component.
And, you know, leveraging all of this technology
to help the DSO paint a clear picture of security risk.
And, you know,
cyber companies don't replace IT resources, that's a big thing.
We have to have solid internal and or external IT resources.
So when a cyber company comes in
and identifies where there's risk, that data can be
provided back to the IT resources
so they can in fact address, you know,
what we call remediate the risk.
So it's a healthy relationship between what I like to say,
all three parties, you know,
the cyber company like black talent, the DSO,
and the IT resources, whether they're internal or external,
and everyone's basically fighting the same battle.
Like, how do we make sure that our network is secure
and we're gonna minimize the chances of an intrusion?
You know, and a lot of, uh, a lot of folks talk about the,
uh, the trust but verify concept
or who's watching the watcher concept.
And I, I think this is really what, you know,
a third party cyber assessment is about.
- Yeah, I, I, I agree with, um, what Gary's saying there.
And, um, I, I will say that, um, I think of,
so Jules RA is the guy on Gary's team that, that, um,
we work with every single day, I mean, every single day.
And we bring in him
and, uh, he works with our, with our guy assigned,
his name is Matt Harris and John Huss also.
Um, and they work again every single day. They get together.
Um, the big thing to me about our, a cybersecurity partner,
like black talent is for us
and my staff, the big thing for me is making sure
that we're all on the same page
and there's open communication.
I expect, you know, Jules and Matt to be tied at the hip
and them to be, um, you know, Jules has a very active voice.
blacktown's got a very active voice of
what the priorities are.
Um, and helping us to say, you know, I'm,
I'm very big on having an organized approach for, um,
what it is that our risks are, where the big ones are, and,
and, uh, the ones that need to get addressed right away and,
and sort of where the ones are that we can, you know,
put mitigating, uh, factors in place or,
or ensure against the different issues
or, you know, avoid, um, the different risks
that are out there, um,
and have different, you know, different ways
of addressing the risks.
Um, but I think that the main answer for me of, you know,
how does a cybersecurity partner work with current IT
resources is every single day
and in an organized way with, uh, intentional results.
Um, looking for things to, you know, I,
we follow the CIS framework, um, for, you know,
scoring our environment
and making sure that we're, we're set up in a way that's,
uh, can be benchmarked.
Um, but then that way you can also measure
that we're making progress against the standard.
And so that to me is the way to do it with, uh,
with a cybersecurity partner and,
and the current IT resources.
It's just making sure that they're in lockstep
and that there's a plan, and that they're,
that you're planning the work working plan and executing
and making things better every single day.
- Yeah, I think you both really underscored
how really just at a point
where the approach can no longer just be, uh, reactive or,
or responding to something once you see it,
but really getting to that place where
it's much more proactive
and having each player, you know, everyone's, as you said,
Gary, fighting the same battle.
So the cyber security, the DSO IT resources, how do we get
to a place where, uh, they're all working cohesively to,
to form that more proactive approach.
Dan, you started to touch on the partnership already,
but Gary
or Dan, can you, can you speak a bit more to
how the partnership between specialty dental brands
and black talent has has really changed over time?
- I'm gonna defer to Gary first,
'cause uh, he's been here longer than I have
and can probably see
how it's changed even in the last six months, ,
- Right?
Right. Like, I think it's all about
building a foundation, right?
We started with specialty dental brands
four years ago when they actually only had
about 10 locations.
And Dan, you're, I think you're up to just shy of what, 300?
Somewhere around there? 2 49? Yep. Two forty nine. Okay.
So we'll call it two 50. Um, so I think one
of the most important things is building this
strong foundation.
What I see in the DSO space is often
due to the rapid growth of DSOs there, technology,
um, their infrastructure is often playing catch up
to the acquisition game, right?
So all of a sudden, you know, they can kind
of bandaid everything together when they're 10
or 15 locations, then all of a sudden they get to 20 or 30
and they're like, oh, the wheels are starting to fall off.
This isn't working, and that's not working.
And they're literally watching like their technology
crumble, uh, in front of them
because they didn't have a plan in place.
The exact same thing applies, uh, not only to technology,
but also to security.
What we often see is, you know, DSOs, uh,
have limited security in place, typically antivirus
and some firewalls.
And even for a single location, that's not great.
But as they start growing, the risk magnifies, you know,
if you have three or four locations
and you get hit with ransomware, that's rough, right?
But all of a sudden you're now at 75 or a hundred locations
and a hundred locations get hit with ransomware.
The, the, the financial
and, um, compliance risk is extremely high.
And if you don't have the proper security framework in place
to able for you to be able to grow with your organization,
you're ultimately going to struggle and or fail.
Um, so I think the, the biggest thing that DSOs need
to do is as they, you know, spin up
and as they, as they grow, they really need to have a,
a structured security program in place that is scalable
for their organization and, and manageable.
And unfortunately in the DSO space, I see
that being a struggle for many of them.
Um, and if they, you know, plan accordingly or had planned
accordingly, the struggles would've been, you know,
significantly reduced.
So I think it's like anything else, if you're gonna,
if you're gonna build a building, build a strong, you know,
foundation with four walls, not a foundation with one wall,
and hoping your building doesn't collapse,
and, you know, I think specialties done a great job at,
you know, being able to, to scale from a technology
and a security perspective.
- Just to layer in here for a second, I, I do think that
too often places have a tools approach to security.
Like it's, you know, antivirus tools
or it's vulnerability scan tools, or it's patching tools.
It's a tools based approach.
And, um, the truth is policies
and procedures are just as important.
The human factor is hugely important.
The training, the communication, there's so much
that goes into security
and compliance program
that you really do need to be intentional.
And, you know, again, I I emphasize the frameworks
that are out there because you can benchmark yourself
and you can start to see whether it's NIST framework
or CIS, you can start to adopt those things.
And once you do that, then you can look very much into
where you are relative to the rest of the world,
and you can look and see, you know, how far behind you are
or how far ahead you are.
And that can help you get investment from your board,
that can get investment from, you know,
from your leadership team to make sure
that you're catching up
and going in the right place to address what, again,
could be an existential risk, right?
So you really need to make sure that you got the right level
of focus on this thing.
Um, and so for me, it's,
it's very much having there be an intentional approach to it
with a framework in place where you can shake hands
and say, look, these are the biggest areas we need
to address and let's get after 'em.
Um, and I think we're doing that now.
And, you know, we're, we're partnering up very closely with,
with Gary and the, uh, black talent team.
- Gary, you started to mention a bit about really the value
of cybersecurity partnerships, particularly
as A DSO may start to grow, and why it becomes more
and more important, um, as the risk, you know, magnifies
with more and more locations.
So Dan, can you expand on that and,
and touch on some of the biggest wins you've seen
with working with a cyber partner
that really understands DSOs specifically?
- Well, I mean, I think the, the experience with DSOs helps
to pace the change.
You know, 'cause, you know, Gary
and his team understand that you can't, you know,
you can't stop business, right?
You need to make sure that we can still see patients,
we're not interrupting things.
Um, and, you know, there's, there's behaviors
that a practice might have, whether it's like, you know,
shared IDs that they've, they've done in the past
that you have to get 'em out of that, right?
Or they don't like multi-factor because it slows 'em down.
And so you have to do a education along with it.
Um, having a partner that understands the DSOs
and what, what that productivity looks like
and what sort of the bad behavior can be
and the reasons behind it can help
to then educate them into, you know, the right place
and the right behaviors, uh, and the right patterns.
Um, and so that, that's really the, the value
of having a partner that understands DSOs is
that they can help pace it appropriately.
And they can also understand that like, so some
of these practice management systems, you know,
these practice management systems have, especially,
you know, in dentistry there's large images.
So a lot of 'em have to be local, right?
Um, and that local dynamic is, is different than a lot
of the, some of the different cloud provi
providing provided solutions.
Um, so you've got a different dynamic there too,
where you have to make sure that your tools
are operate appropriately in the environment that you're in.
And so, um, security providers that understand, uh,
the dental ecosystem can really bring value in that way.
And so that's, that's some of what we're,
we're, we're looking for.
And, and some of the things that you need
to know about in, in the DSO space,
- Lemme touch on just the visibility component.
So without clear visibility into cyber risks,
as we've mentioned, how are executive teams making
risk-based decisions?
- So I think, I think one of the biggest challenges is I
think they aren't, right?
When, when I talk to executives, CEOs,
COOs, sometimes even the CFOs of these organizations,
and I ask a simple question, which is, do you understand
where you have risk from a cyber perspective?
Most of the time I can't get an answer, right?
They're like, oh, I have, I have an IT team
that addresses that.
But we know, unfortunately, when these cyber events occur,
it all rolls up to the top, right?
The CEO, the c-suite, the board, they're gonna have
to answer as to why they didn't address
cyber risk accordingly.
And I think the most simpl simplistic answer
is they didn't know.
They didn't know what questions to ask, right?
They're relying on information that's, uh, fed to them.
And I've been in the corporate world
for a long time, Dan, you've been there too.
And we know, um, that often
as information has passed from managers to directors to VPs
to the C-suite, that message is often diluted, right?
Because no one wants to really, you know, hear it at the,
at the top, um,
or they don't want their, their bosses
to hear it at the top, I should say.
And, and sometimes the message is not communicated properly
'cause people fear for their job, et cetera.
Um, so one of the things
that I think all executive teams need to do is
ask hard questions, right?
And, and get clear, uh, and,
and transparent answers as to where they do have cyber risk.
And I think, unfortunately,
and Dan nailed this, is there are
so many tool sets out there right now that often
teams are just relying on tools.
And because these data sets being
provided by these tools are so large, it's very difficult
to take all of that data consolidated
and then, you know, use it to present risk back
to an executive team.
So typically the response that gets
to the executive team is something like, oh,
we have a covered, you know,
we have AI based antivirus software,
we've got great firewalls, you know,
you guys don't need to worry about this.
And, and if the executive team doesn't actually, you know,
understand security at, at, you know,
not in a tech from a technical perspective,
but more
of an operational perspective, they don't know what to ask.
You know, they don't know how to dig into that type
of answer, and they're just going to, you know, hope, right?
I, I call it like a hope and a prayer that, you know,
everything is being done properly.
But I know we provide specialty, uh, specialty dental brands
with clear transparency into their risk.
You know, they, they leverage our platform called Eagle Eye,
and then they can go into Eagle Eye
and understand overall for their organization
what their risk is.
They can drill down into each individual physical office
location and understand where the risk is there,
and they can actually drill down into the actual machine
and understand, is this computer presenting a
risk to our organization?
And then most importantly, you know,
they can action on it from a budgetary perspective,
you know, from a compliance regulatory.
And, and then even, you know, Dan mentioned it
before, is patching, right?
How do we look at these vulnerabilities and then fix them?
Well, usually it's through, through identity, uh,
identifying the risk and then applying patches
and other technology to eliminate that risk.
It's kind of like knowing your front door
to your office is wide open
and then closing it versus finding out the hard way,
which is, hey, your front door is open
and your office is burglarized,
but that's after the fact, right?
You, you want to have proactive, uh, proactive approach
and identify the risk and address it,
you know, before it becomes a problem.
But Dan, I know you, um, you
and your team, you know, take a lot of time and,
and analyze the, the data that we're provided to you.
So I don't know if you wanna take a a shot at it
from, from your perspective. Yeah,
- Yeah.
I, I really like so eagle eye, you're a hundred percent, I,
I agree with what Gary just said there, right?
Uh, from the fact that a lot
of executives don't necessarily approach things from
a risk perspective,
nor do they know like what the strategies are
for addressing risk, right?
And so the very first thing is we have this tool, Eagle Eye,
right, from, from black talent that,
that shows you the risks that are out there
and then puts a category around it or,
or severity around it, um, which then sort of drives,
draws your eye towards which ones do I address first, right?
So order of precedence of what you wanna address,
and then, you know, you could have it in groups too
by practice and, and attack it in that way,
but then there's the actual addressing of
that articulated risk.
So Eagle eye helps 'cause it articulates the risk
and then it, and it categorizes it.
So that's awesome. But then when you look at it, you know,
you can either resolve it, mitigate it, ensure against it,
avoid it, or accept it,
and the accept it is something you can do on the tool
so you don't have to repeat yourself again and again.
Um, but then you've gotta look for other ways,
like the really big ones you wanna resolve,
you wanna patch 'em, or you want to, you know, get it, get
that device outta your environment
or you wanna do something so it's no longer there,
as opposed to like a mitigate where you might put it into,
into A VPN, right?
So that it's still there and I have it,
but you know, it's, it's, I've got controls in place
where it's, it's not gonna hurt me, um, as opposed to,
you know, uh, avoiding it or, or accepting a risk, right?
So there's, there's a lot of strategies
that are out there for these risks.
And I think, ha the very first step though is identifying it
and categorizing it.
And that's, that's what Eagle Eye helps us to do, um,
and the other tools help us to do.
And then it's really big on having
that relationship in place where you're,
and a team in place that understands the things that need
to be done based on the course of action that you've chosen.
Um, and so that, that's the big thing for me on a,
on a risk-based, uh, management system.
And, and that's what we're,
we're really trying to put in place here.
- Yeah, it was interesting to hear just around the lack
of awareness or knowledge at the executive level, uh,
and on the challenges that that can create, as well as just
how the platform really helps to not just show you
where the risks are,
but then sort of can give some action items in terms
of prioritizing what to address first.
Can you speak to now how actually having the data
to back up specialties security posture trends can change
the conversations within the broader
leadership team and board?
Dan?
- The fir first thing that having the data
that articulated risk
and categorized, the very first thing it helps you do is
say, look, I mean, here's, here's the funding I need, right?
Um, so if you have, you know, if you have a, uh,
an environment that didn't have,
I'll just use a very simple example, right?
It doesn't have a firewall, right?
And you go in there
and you say, all right, well,
here's all the risks that are identified.
Um, in order to, uh, in order to, uh, mitigate the fact
that I've got, you know, unpatched PCs, I'm just, you know,
throwing it out there as a, as something
that's a possible example, unpatched PCs, in order for me
to do that, I, I really wanna have 'em on a isolated VPN.
Well, um, let me do that.
I need a, I need a firewall to be put in place in order
to do that and get the, you know,
get the structure set up right?
Um, and if I don't have that, I, I need to invest in it.
So here's the, here are the dollars I need.
And so having that organized approach
with the risks articulated first
and foremost, helps you articulate when you're,
when you need funding to get the different things in place
to address what's out there.
Um, in the same way, if I need to replace PCs, if I need
to replace servers, if I need to get some sort
of software package in place, um, you know, all
of those things, if you can talk about your
security posture related to a, you know, a framework
and also benchmark yourself against things, um,
that can help you with your priorities
and it can help you get funding,
and it can help you spur action with your team too.
I mean, if you see a series of things that are red
and you're, you know, you're the head of infrastructure
and you have these things kind
of hitting you in the face every single day, um,
those are the, those are the
things you're gonna first address.
And so that's, that's really how I like to approach it
of seeing these things out here and,
and get the right, the right pieces
in place to get 'em addressed.
- Dan and Gary, before we wrap up, can we share a piece
of advice that you would share
to other growth-minded DSOs today?
- The very first thing I would say is security
has to come first, right?
It has to be the very, it's a primary thing that's part
of the security and compliance
is really the foundation on which everything else
is, has to go on top.
I mean, you can't, you know,
you wanna get good processes in place, you wanna get, i,
I use the serve scale, innovate structure where you,
you wanna be able to your IT to serve, um, your business,
and then you want it to be able to scale so you can grow,
and then you want be able to innovate
and, you know, whether that's using AI
or using your data, you wanna do those things,
but in order to do all of that, you need it on a foundation
of good security and compliance.
And so it really ought to be the very first thing,
and it has to be part of the fabric of what, of
what you're doing every single day.
And so the piece of advice I would give
to other growth-minded DSOs, is do that first
and make sure it's part of everything you do
and part of your fabric.
- Yeah, well said, Dan.
Look, I think one of, one of the best piece of advice
I can give a DSO
or any large group is they have
to have a cybersecurity plan.
And what I've seen over the years is the cybersecurity plan
typically revolves around a firewall
and antivirus, and guess what?
Every DSO that gets hit right, and,
and gets taken down for weeks, they have firewalls,
they have antivirus software.
It's just not a good overall strategy to protect yourselves
from these more advanced threats.
Are they required? Of course, you have to have a firewall,
you have to have good antivirus software,
but there's so many more elements to a cybersecurity program
than just like Dan said at the beginning than just tools.
And I feel like in the cyber world right now,
we're relying so much on tools and it's failing, right?
So organizations invest in,
in some pretty good tools sometimes,
and the hackers have absolutely f absolutely figured out
ways to bypass these tools.
And then all of a sudden the DSO turns around as like, whoa,
how, how do we have 30 offices down
with ransomware right now?
We, we just bought this new tool.
And often it starts at, you know, kind of the,
the sales level, right?
The a vendor getting in front of the DSO
and saying, Hey, this is ai, it blocks everything.
Don't worry about it. Put this on your network
and you have nothing to fear.
And that's, that's the failure point. So have a plan.
It has to be multifaceted.
Um, it has to incorporate defensive
and offensive measures, vulnerability scanning,
penetration testing, cyber training, AI based,
what's called endpoint detection and response
or extended detection and response.
But it all has to be backed up
with credentialed security engineers that,
that understand the industry, understand cyber risk, deal
with these, you know,
cyber events on an ongoing basis like ransomware,
data theft, email intrusions,
and then make strong recommendations back to the DSO
in terms of, you know, a strategy both based on humans
and technology, so you can defend against these attacks,
you know, these, these ransomware events
that are occurring right now.
You don't know how bad it actually is until you go
through one yourself and it brings your organization
to its knees, right?
To, to the point where you, you know,
especially if it's systemic, not localized,
you can't function for weeks.
And that's when the executive teams realized, wow, right,
maybe we should have asked more detailed questions
or had more knowledge on, on this stuff and,
and implemented the trust bud verify concept.
So have a plan, make sure it's comprehensive, you know,
tap into organizations like ours
that understand the cyber world and, and, and,
and leverage us to help, you know,
organizations like yourself.
Stay secure.
- Yeah, sounds like it's really critical moving forward
for DSOs and leaders.
Really do away with that tool, tool as cybersecurity mindset
and really lean more into the cybersecurity strategy plan,
the plan mindset to be successful in the future
and fend off, uh, some of these types of attacks.
Gary and Dan, thank you both so much
for hopping on today to discuss this.
We also wanna thank our podcast sponsor,
black Talent Security and listeners.
You can access more podcast episodes from Becker's
by visiting the podcast page on our website,
becker's podcasts.com. Thank you all so much.
- Thanks ly. - Thank you for having us.