1 00:00:00,185 --> 00:00:00,825 - Hello everyone. 2 00:00:01,005 --> 00:00:03,025 I'm Brian Zimmerman, a VP client, content 3 00:00:03,125 --> 00:00:04,545 and Strategy at Becker's Healthcare. 4 00:00:04,835 --> 00:00:07,305 Thank you for tuning into the Becker's Healthcare podcast. 5 00:00:08,415 --> 00:00:09,545 Today's conversation. 6 00:00:09,825 --> 00:00:11,945 I am joined by Jonathan Kaufman, 7 00:00:11,945 --> 00:00:13,825 chief Marketing Officer at Sage Dental. 8 00:00:14,505 --> 00:00:15,905 Jonathan, thank you so much for being here today. 9 00:00:16,455 --> 00:00:18,105 - Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks for having me. 10 00:00:19,175 --> 00:00:20,635 - So, and, and to get us started here, 11 00:00:20,695 --> 00:00:22,915 can you just introduce yourself, uh, share, 12 00:00:22,925 --> 00:00:25,435 share a a bit about your, your, what you're doing 13 00:00:25,455 --> 00:00:27,915 as Chief Marketing Officer at Sage Dental and, 14 00:00:27,915 --> 00:00:29,275 and a bit about Sage Dental as well, 15 00:00:29,335 --> 00:00:31,795 so listeners can really appreciate your perspective here. 16 00:00:32,385 --> 00:00:34,235 - Yeah, of course. Uh, my name's John Kaufman. 17 00:00:34,235 --> 00:00:36,195 I'm the Chief Marketing Officer of Sage. 18 00:00:36,225 --> 00:00:37,555 I've been here for about five years. 19 00:00:37,625 --> 00:00:40,675 Been in the dental space for about 10. 20 00:00:40,675 --> 00:00:43,155 Served as Chief marketing officer at another DSO, 21 00:00:43,695 --> 00:00:45,035 um, in Texas. 22 00:00:45,215 --> 00:00:49,155 Before that, I mean, my, my focus at SAGE is 23 00:00:49,905 --> 00:00:51,555 both marketing strategy, 24 00:00:51,775 --> 00:00:56,555 but also technology, um, technology application, which is, 25 00:00:56,655 --> 00:00:59,155 you know, kind of apropos to the, the topic 26 00:00:59,225 --> 00:01:00,515 that we're discussing. 27 00:01:00,975 --> 00:01:05,595 Um, Sage Dental is, uh, just under 120 dental practices. 28 00:01:05,805 --> 00:01:08,435 We've grown in the last three years from 60. 29 00:01:08,855 --> 00:01:11,835 So we've actually doubled in size in, uh, three years, just, 30 00:01:11,855 --> 00:01:13,275 uh, as we got outta Covid. 31 00:01:14,055 --> 00:01:18,515 You know, we are a consistently branded DSO organization, 32 00:01:18,575 --> 00:01:20,755 so all of our practices are Sage Dental. 33 00:01:21,215 --> 00:01:23,355 Um, there are a few that are not, and that's simply 34 00:01:23,355 --> 00:01:26,555 because we've just completed, uh, an acquisition 35 00:01:26,555 --> 00:01:28,835 and they're, they're not quite rebranded yet. 36 00:01:29,215 --> 00:01:32,675 Um, but we, we don't just kind of brand everything the same. 37 00:01:33,055 --> 00:01:35,835 Um, everything is on a consistent platform, 38 00:01:35,925 --> 00:01:38,235 gives us consistency in technology 39 00:01:38,335 --> 00:01:41,555 and messaging, um, in, uh, 40 00:01:41,905 --> 00:01:43,835 patient experience, whatever it might be. 41 00:01:43,855 --> 00:01:45,595 And, you know, we like to think of ourselves 42 00:01:45,695 --> 00:01:48,515 as very tech forward in terms of the, uh, 43 00:01:48,515 --> 00:01:49,635 the patient experience. 44 00:01:49,895 --> 00:01:53,555 And we've got a, a great, uh, set of providers that offer, 45 00:01:53,735 --> 00:01:56,835 you know, general hygiene, specialty, endo, ortho, 46 00:01:57,305 --> 00:02:00,635 oral surgery, uh, perio, pedo, you name it. 47 00:02:01,015 --> 00:02:03,395 Um, so just, I, I like to think of ourselves 48 00:02:03,395 --> 00:02:06,355 as a tech Ford very well-rounded all dentistry in one 49 00:02:06,355 --> 00:02:07,595 place, uh, organization. 50 00:02:09,135 --> 00:02:11,225 - Perfect. It's great background for folks 51 00:02:11,225 --> 00:02:12,465 that help understand, especially 52 00:02:12,465 --> 00:02:14,225 around this technology components, 53 00:02:14,225 --> 00:02:16,105 which we are gonna dig into quite a bit today. 54 00:02:16,485 --> 00:02:18,425 And, and, and specifically wanna begin here 55 00:02:18,425 --> 00:02:20,585 by really focusing on artificial intelligence. 56 00:02:20,585 --> 00:02:21,865 So of course, um, 57 00:02:21,965 --> 00:02:23,865 if you're having a conversation about technology 58 00:02:23,865 --> 00:02:25,945 and healthcare today, artificial intelligence 59 00:02:25,945 --> 00:02:27,105 is, is definitely coming up. 60 00:02:27,105 --> 00:02:30,225 And, uh, curious to how, how you would describe 61 00:02:30,805 --> 00:02:33,145 how you're seeing ai, this AI trend sort 62 00:02:33,145 --> 00:02:35,025 of play out in the dental space specifically? 63 00:02:35,925 --> 00:02:39,215 - Yeah, I mean the AI question, it's such a, a, 64 00:02:39,375 --> 00:02:43,215 a loaded descriptor 'cause so much is just not ai, right? 65 00:02:43,235 --> 00:02:44,615 So much is augmented reality, 66 00:02:44,615 --> 00:02:46,335 and I don't think it's just in the dental space 67 00:02:46,335 --> 00:02:49,375 that you see that topic coming up and, 68 00:02:49,515 --> 00:02:50,695 and not just in healthcare. 69 00:02:50,855 --> 00:02:52,455 I mean, I don't think you can have a conversation 70 00:02:52,455 --> 00:02:55,935 with anyone these days without talking about chat GPT 71 00:02:55,955 --> 00:02:57,215 or using the, the term 72 00:02:57,675 --> 00:02:58,675 - Ai. 73 00:02:58,675 --> 00:02:59,605 That is fair. But it's certainly fair. Yes. 74 00:03:00,145 --> 00:03:03,305 - Um, but how's it playing out in the dental space? 75 00:03:03,545 --> 00:03:07,345 I mean, it's playing out fragmented is how it's playing out. 76 00:03:07,525 --> 00:03:11,985 So I think the most developed type 77 00:03:11,985 --> 00:03:16,465 of AI that is being utilized most broadly right now 78 00:03:17,045 --> 00:03:20,625 is likely, you know, diagnostics from radiographs, right? 79 00:03:20,805 --> 00:03:22,865 So not a new technology, 80 00:03:22,925 --> 00:03:26,265 but a new technology as it applies to dentistry, right? 81 00:03:26,285 --> 00:03:30,465 The ability to scan a, a huge volume 82 00:03:30,685 --> 00:03:32,625 of patient x-rays 83 00:03:32,845 --> 00:03:37,785 and provide insights to, you know, what type of issues 84 00:03:38,375 --> 00:03:41,025 that that patient, uh, has with their teeth. 85 00:03:41,615 --> 00:03:43,505 It's interesting because the technology is, 86 00:03:43,505 --> 00:03:45,705 that is evolving so rapidly, right? 87 00:03:45,825 --> 00:03:47,585 I mean, if you think about, you know, 88 00:03:47,585 --> 00:03:50,985 Google's been using this kind of, um, image automation and 89 00:03:51,205 --> 00:03:54,065 and image AI for a long time, so of other vendors, 90 00:03:54,165 --> 00:03:56,625 but it's really being applied to dentistry. 91 00:03:56,645 --> 00:03:59,865 And I think while the technology itself is not new, 92 00:04:00,125 --> 00:04:01,865 its application to dentistry is new 93 00:04:01,965 --> 00:04:03,745 and it's the most broadly adopted, 94 00:04:04,325 --> 00:04:07,385 and now it's, you know, it's being iterated, right? 95 00:04:07,525 --> 00:04:12,465 So how can we bring those tentacles of, of radiograph, um, 96 00:04:12,975 --> 00:04:15,905 diagnostics into, um, insur, you know, 97 00:04:15,905 --> 00:04:19,105 automating insurance claims or communicating to patients. 98 00:04:19,165 --> 00:04:21,185 So I think, you know, that's, 99 00:04:21,605 --> 00:04:23,345 that's the biggest trend I've seen. 100 00:04:23,545 --> 00:04:27,465 I think we've seen, you know, companies like Pearl Nvidia 101 00:04:27,525 --> 00:04:31,185 and, and others that are kind of trailblazing that path. 102 00:04:31,725 --> 00:04:32,825 Um, you know, 103 00:04:32,825 --> 00:04:35,265 earlier on it was kind of the dental monitoring. 104 00:04:35,305 --> 00:04:38,905 I think they go by dental mind now, um, where it was a lot 105 00:04:38,905 --> 00:04:43,385 of increased convenience for patients by looking at, uh, 106 00:04:43,385 --> 00:04:44,825 patient images from home 107 00:04:44,885 --> 00:04:47,065 for ortho cases using dental monitoring 108 00:04:47,065 --> 00:04:48,625 or visualizing a new smile. 109 00:04:49,165 --> 00:04:54,105 But I'm seeing a lot more also pop up around a lot 110 00:04:54,105 --> 00:04:56,265 of different, uh, vendors and how they, 111 00:04:56,485 --> 00:04:59,345 or, uh, you know, it, it may not be a marketing vendor, 112 00:04:59,445 --> 00:05:03,185 it may be a, um, a clinical vendor that is starting to adapt 113 00:05:03,185 --> 00:05:05,825 that to, okay, how can we better communicate to the patient? 114 00:05:06,485 --> 00:05:08,745 How can we turn some of the components 115 00:05:08,845 --> 00:05:10,785 of this radiographic identification 116 00:05:10,885 --> 00:05:14,545 or treatment design into kind of marketing tools 117 00:05:14,725 --> 00:05:16,465 and conversion tools and other things. 118 00:05:16,565 --> 00:05:21,385 So I think that's probably the biggest kind of broadly, um, 119 00:05:21,975 --> 00:05:23,265 adopted trend right now. 120 00:05:23,425 --> 00:05:26,505 I think we'll see other things, more robotic automation. 121 00:05:27,045 --> 00:05:30,185 Um, we just met with a group that's doing, um, 122 00:05:30,575 --> 00:05:34,105 robotic implant implementation, and it's a bad analogy, 123 00:05:34,205 --> 00:05:36,505 but it's, it's similar to, uh, 124 00:05:36,505 --> 00:05:39,385 kinda laparoscopic surgery except without the surgeon 125 00:05:39,785 --> 00:05:41,225 actually, you know, doing the, 126 00:05:41,365 --> 00:05:42,705 the laparoscopic type surgery. 127 00:05:42,855 --> 00:05:44,665 It's, it's truly robotic. 128 00:05:44,725 --> 00:05:47,945 And I think that's few years away in terms of, um, 129 00:05:48,085 --> 00:05:49,505 how AI will define that. 130 00:05:49,725 --> 00:05:51,785 But it's definitely, there's some other things coming. 131 00:05:53,855 --> 00:05:55,265 - Yeah, certainly. And, and, 132 00:05:55,285 --> 00:05:58,555 and you really nailed down on sort of a lot of, some of the, 133 00:05:59,015 --> 00:06:01,355 um, the ways that AI can change some of the 134 00:06:02,075 --> 00:06:04,035 clinical elements of dentistry. 135 00:06:04,455 --> 00:06:07,475 Um, and it certainly alluded to also the way some of 136 00:06:07,475 --> 00:06:10,875 that is then going to, um, trickle into or affect 137 00:06:10,975 --> 00:06:12,475 and be used in, in marketing. 138 00:06:12,935 --> 00:06:16,075 So I, I guess I want to ask you what other opportunities 139 00:06:16,215 --> 00:06:18,755 or challenges are coming up around AI in, in, 140 00:06:18,815 --> 00:06:20,955 in the dental industry, um, 141 00:06:21,055 --> 00:06:23,275 and thinking here specifically about sort of 142 00:06:23,275 --> 00:06:26,075 that marketing component that you, you sort of alluded 143 00:06:26,095 --> 00:06:27,995 to in in your last answer there, 144 00:06:27,995 --> 00:06:31,195 because of course the, there's a lot of talk broadly about 145 00:06:31,195 --> 00:06:33,235 how AI's going transform many industries. 146 00:06:33,335 --> 00:06:36,395 And, uh, thinking about the marketing in the broadest sense, 147 00:06:36,395 --> 00:06:37,915 there's a lot of talk about how AI is 148 00:06:37,915 --> 00:06:38,995 going to transform marketing. 149 00:06:39,095 --> 00:06:43,155 So curious to hear your take on, on the opportunities 150 00:06:43,175 --> 00:06:45,715 and challenges in this space, um, in, in terms 151 00:06:45,715 --> 00:06:48,435 of AI marketing in, in the dental industry, 152 00:06:48,435 --> 00:06:50,235 and anything else you you wanna highlight 153 00:06:50,235 --> 00:06:51,595 and any other challenges or opportunities 154 00:06:51,655 --> 00:06:52,835 you wanna flag for listeners? 155 00:06:53,545 --> 00:06:55,475 - Yeah, I mean, that, that's a big question, right? 156 00:06:55,495 --> 00:06:57,955 So I think the first part of it is challenges. 157 00:06:58,195 --> 00:07:02,235 I think, I think the biggest challenge for its application 158 00:07:02,255 --> 00:07:07,235 and clinical is both the adoption from the providers, right? 159 00:07:07,235 --> 00:07:08,515 Getting a provider trained 160 00:07:08,575 --> 00:07:11,195 and comfortable with something that they've, 161 00:07:11,395 --> 00:07:14,955 they've perhaps never used or had to rely on for many years. 162 00:07:15,655 --> 00:07:18,675 Um, and I think the second part 163 00:07:18,675 --> 00:07:21,635 of the challenge is the fragmentation i, I kind 164 00:07:21,635 --> 00:07:23,475 of talked about earlier, right? 165 00:07:23,655 --> 00:07:26,955 Um, it's, it's, there's a lot of fragmented, um, tools. 166 00:07:27,615 --> 00:07:30,595 And in dentistry, I think many of your listeners will, 167 00:07:30,665 --> 00:07:33,075 will agree, you know, there's a lot 168 00:07:33,075 --> 00:07:35,995 of fragmented tools not in ai, right? 169 00:07:36,275 --> 00:07:39,995 A lot of our practice management systems, a lot of our, um, 170 00:07:40,175 --> 00:07:42,715 supply systems, what, whatever it might be, right? 171 00:07:43,215 --> 00:07:45,275 Um, there's a lot of fragmentation. 172 00:07:45,615 --> 00:07:48,195 Um, you know, I think dentistry represents about 3% 173 00:07:48,435 --> 00:07:49,715 of the total healthcare market. 174 00:07:50,175 --> 00:07:54,595 So a lot of that investment in systems is done outside 175 00:07:54,615 --> 00:07:59,035 of the dental, um, the, the dental vertical, if you will. 176 00:07:59,055 --> 00:08:03,035 So I think part of the challenge is, um, is A, 177 00:08:03,035 --> 00:08:04,635 getting the provider to adopt it, 178 00:08:04,775 --> 00:08:06,035 and b um, 179 00:08:07,425 --> 00:08:11,715 once the new system is out, how do you then implement 180 00:08:11,715 --> 00:08:13,955 that seamlessly into the variety 181 00:08:14,095 --> 00:08:17,395 of fragmented practice management systems, um, 182 00:08:17,615 --> 00:08:19,355 and other tools that are out there? 183 00:08:19,735 --> 00:08:24,555 So I think, um, I think that's probably right now the, 184 00:08:25,095 --> 00:08:29,075 the biggest hurdle, um, I think the, the kind 185 00:08:29,075 --> 00:08:32,155 of the tertiary hurdle around that is patients, right? 186 00:08:32,455 --> 00:08:36,995 Um, how comfortable are patients with, um, these types 187 00:08:36,995 --> 00:08:39,435 of technologies leaning on these types of technologies? 188 00:08:40,255 --> 00:08:44,445 We've got several, you know, studies that we've looked at 189 00:08:44,445 --> 00:08:46,765 that show that, you know, patients expect it. 190 00:08:46,835 --> 00:08:48,245 Then we've got several that show 191 00:08:48,245 --> 00:08:50,005 that patients could care less, right? 192 00:08:50,105 --> 00:08:51,965 And so I think that there's, um, 193 00:08:52,305 --> 00:08:54,445 the adoption phase I think is going 194 00:08:54,465 --> 00:08:57,325 to take a little bit more time from the patient side. 195 00:08:58,025 --> 00:09:01,445 Um, so I think, I think those are the, the big, um, 196 00:09:02,065 --> 00:09:04,125 the big hurdles from a clinical side. 197 00:09:05,185 --> 00:09:08,925 Now to your second question, in terms of marketing, um, I, 198 00:09:08,985 --> 00:09:11,925 I'm gonna stick to like, dental specific marketing 199 00:09:11,925 --> 00:09:15,765 because if I go outside of that realm, I'm gonna, you know, 200 00:09:16,065 --> 00:09:18,965 be vomiting up the chat GPTs and, 201 00:09:19,065 --> 00:09:23,295 and all these other kind of tools, um, that are out there. 202 00:09:23,975 --> 00:09:27,455 I think a good example though is to use chat GPT. 203 00:09:27,795 --> 00:09:32,455 So I think that for those people that have used chat, GPT 204 00:09:32,475 --> 00:09:35,815 or other types of tools, they'll note that, you know, 205 00:09:35,875 --> 00:09:38,975 if you write, uh, some sort of prose 206 00:09:38,975 --> 00:09:40,415 or email or whatever, right? 207 00:09:40,415 --> 00:09:43,655 And you, you give it a lot of bullet points and directions, 208 00:09:43,675 --> 00:09:47,175 and you input that into chat GPT, it's going to output 209 00:09:47,195 --> 00:09:52,095 for you, you know, the tone, um, the, the content, 210 00:09:52,395 --> 00:09:54,015 the substance, it's just gonna clean 211 00:09:54,015 --> 00:09:55,135 it up and make it sound better. 212 00:09:55,435 --> 00:09:56,575 And, and that's great. 213 00:09:57,515 --> 00:10:00,895 If you just say, you know, to chat GPT without any context, 214 00:10:01,105 --> 00:10:03,935 write me an email, you know, as a response to 215 00:10:04,645 --> 00:10:06,455 this email I got from this person. 216 00:10:07,235 --> 00:10:09,855 You know, it, it may have all the information, 217 00:10:09,995 --> 00:10:14,335 but it doesn't have the context or, um, you know, the tone 218 00:10:14,515 --> 00:10:18,295 and, and it can, it can seem constructed, right? 219 00:10:18,355 --> 00:10:22,495 And I think that applies to where marketing is 220 00:10:22,725 --> 00:10:26,135 with AI right now in terms of the dental space, which is 221 00:10:26,135 --> 00:10:30,455 that, um, you, you gotta be really careful 222 00:10:31,115 --> 00:10:34,935 not to utilize some of these marketing tools as the 223 00:10:35,775 --> 00:10:36,815 complete solution set, 224 00:10:37,035 --> 00:10:41,335 but like the clinical side as an augment to, um, you know, 225 00:10:41,335 --> 00:10:44,615 the original diagnosis, the original di uh, marketing plan 226 00:10:45,355 --> 00:10:46,615 or marketing message 227 00:10:46,715 --> 00:10:49,025 or whatever, it's, I think that the, 228 00:10:49,165 --> 00:10:52,105 the innovations are gonna come from, i, 229 00:10:52,185 --> 00:10:53,625 I think the greatest innovations 230 00:10:53,625 --> 00:10:56,865 for the marketing side using AI are going to come 231 00:10:57,395 --> 00:10:58,585 again, focused on dental. 232 00:10:59,085 --> 00:11:01,295 They're gonna come from the use of these tool sets 233 00:11:01,395 --> 00:11:05,735 and how these tool sets can, um, allow you 234 00:11:05,735 --> 00:11:07,375 to better communicate with your patient. 235 00:11:07,555 --> 00:11:10,695 So let's just use clinical diagnostics, right? 236 00:11:11,445 --> 00:11:14,065 If I've got three years of radiographs from a patient 237 00:11:14,245 --> 00:11:16,705 and that patient has consistently, um, 238 00:11:16,885 --> 00:11:20,465 or we've seen consistent deterioration in, you know, part 239 00:11:20,465 --> 00:11:22,705 of their mouth or, or one of their teeth 240 00:11:22,705 --> 00:11:24,665 or whatever it might be, right? 241 00:11:24,685 --> 00:11:26,945 And they've, they've just, you know, always kind 242 00:11:26,945 --> 00:11:29,345 of taken the, the insurance provided cleaning 243 00:11:29,445 --> 00:11:31,105 or whatever it might be, right? 244 00:11:31,225 --> 00:11:34,905 I think the, the evolution for marketing is going to be to 245 00:11:35,975 --> 00:11:38,345 have that so that you can, you can utilize 246 00:11:38,345 --> 00:11:40,985 that in an automated fashion to communicate to the patient 247 00:11:41,175 --> 00:11:45,025 with education to say, look, you're, you're kind of 248 00:11:45,725 --> 00:11:47,025 not wanting to do this. 249 00:11:47,405 --> 00:11:50,265 I'm making this up, but thousand dollar crown, right? 250 00:11:50,275 --> 00:11:53,725 Which you need if you don't do that, right? 251 00:11:53,895 --> 00:11:58,005 Based on the progression of the deterioration, you know, 252 00:11:58,005 --> 00:12:00,325 this is gonna be an extraction in implant in 253 00:12:00,325 --> 00:12:01,365 two years, right? 254 00:12:01,545 --> 00:12:04,605 And so that's gonna be a $5,000 expense. 255 00:12:05,225 --> 00:12:08,285 So, you know, it's gonna be important that you address this 256 00:12:08,345 --> 00:12:09,365 and you address this now. 257 00:12:09,505 --> 00:12:13,845 And I think we're not, we're nowhere near being able to do 258 00:12:13,845 --> 00:12:16,445 that with, with automation sophistication yet. 259 00:12:16,445 --> 00:12:19,045 But I think that that's where things get exciting. 260 00:12:19,645 --> 00:12:20,805 I also think 261 00:12:21,235 --> 00:12:23,805 that things will get exciting just on the visual side, and, 262 00:12:23,805 --> 00:12:25,325 and they're already starting to a bit where 263 00:12:26,105 --> 00:12:28,565 you can essentially say to your patient, you know, 264 00:12:28,565 --> 00:12:29,685 what smile do you want? 265 00:12:30,315 --> 00:12:31,965 What do you want this to look like? Right? 266 00:12:32,065 --> 00:12:33,405 And they can visualize that, 267 00:12:34,195 --> 00:12:36,695 and that allows patients to actually say, oh, this is 268 00:12:36,695 --> 00:12:38,535 where I can be, and this is the treatment plan 269 00:12:38,535 --> 00:12:42,535 that will essentially get me, um, get me to that place. 270 00:12:42,675 --> 00:12:44,175 So, um, you know, 271 00:12:44,175 --> 00:12:46,615 and then there's other stuff in terms of, you know, 272 00:12:46,685 --> 00:12:49,095 patient communication as it relates 273 00:12:49,155 --> 00:12:51,255 to phone calls or chat, right? 274 00:12:51,415 --> 00:12:54,695 I mean, we've all spent the time, uh, you know, whether 275 00:12:54,955 --> 00:12:57,335 and not to, you know, say anything bad about at and t, 276 00:12:57,335 --> 00:13:00,095 but we've all, we've all gone on the robocall with at 277 00:13:00,095 --> 00:13:03,095 and t where, you know, we're going through the IVR system 278 00:13:03,155 --> 00:13:06,055 and listening to their automated voice. 279 00:13:06,295 --> 00:13:08,855 I think, I think there's some exciting things coming in 280 00:13:08,855 --> 00:13:11,575 terms of, uh, actually human interaction 281 00:13:11,575 --> 00:13:13,735 or human-like interaction with phone calls 282 00:13:14,235 --> 00:13:18,175 and, um, appointment setting and chat bots 283 00:13:18,175 --> 00:13:21,535 and things like that that just allow you to do so much more, 284 00:13:21,795 --> 00:13:24,255 um, within a healthcare sphere that's, you know, 285 00:13:24,305 --> 00:13:27,095 HIPAA compliant and PCI come all these things 286 00:13:27,095 --> 00:13:28,295 that you need with healthcare. 287 00:13:28,315 --> 00:13:30,335 And I think those are, those are the exciting things. 288 00:13:30,635 --> 00:13:32,575 And of course, there's the other ones where, you know, 289 00:13:32,575 --> 00:13:35,695 you can ideate some creative messaging through chat GPT, 290 00:13:35,755 --> 00:13:38,375 but, um, that, that's kind of where I think, um, 291 00:13:38,375 --> 00:13:39,375 there's some excitement 292 00:13:39,375 --> 00:13:40,895 and there's some, some innovation happening. 293 00:13:41,155 --> 00:13:44,415 And that is, that is by the way, a, um, 294 00:13:45,095 --> 00:13:46,895 a very long answer, to your question, 295 00:13:47,215 --> 00:13:48,215 - . 296 00:13:48,215 --> 00:13:50,055 Well, it, it was a very big question as, 297 00:13:50,155 --> 00:13:51,335 as you noted at the top, 298 00:13:51,395 --> 00:13:55,375 but I think you, you navigated def deftly, um, the, 299 00:13:55,615 --> 00:13:57,335 I wanna focus in more on the, on the, 300 00:13:57,335 --> 00:13:59,895 on the patient again here, as you sort of alluded to, 301 00:13:59,895 --> 00:14:02,615 in a lot of ways, this could affect a patient in terms 302 00:14:02,735 --> 00:14:04,175 of education and communication. 303 00:14:04,755 --> 00:14:06,575 Um, can, can you share anything else about 304 00:14:06,575 --> 00:14:09,895 how you anticipate this, the application of AI will, 305 00:14:09,965 --> 00:14:12,215 will affect the patient, any other things to share there? 306 00:14:12,215 --> 00:14:14,735 And then of course, if it affects the patient, it stands 307 00:14:14,735 --> 00:14:17,615 to reason like your, the example you gave about the crown, 308 00:14:17,715 --> 00:14:19,415 the crown, it stands to reason 309 00:14:19,415 --> 00:14:23,015 that if you're education educating patients more about this 310 00:14:23,015 --> 00:14:26,095 sort of thing, it's gonna have, you know, uh, implications 311 00:14:26,095 --> 00:14:28,095 for operational and business outcomes as well. 312 00:14:28,595 --> 00:14:31,055 So can, can you expand on that a little bit and, and, 313 00:14:31,075 --> 00:14:33,215 and share any examples or, or, 314 00:14:33,395 --> 00:14:37,135 or specific ideas, um, that, that might help illustrate it 315 00:14:37,135 --> 00:14:38,135 for, for listeners? 316 00:14:38,645 --> 00:14:41,335 - Yeah, I mean, I can, I can go back to the example I gave 317 00:14:41,335 --> 00:14:44,095 of where I think marketing communications will go, which is 318 00:14:44,245 --> 00:14:46,735 what we're actually seeing in real life application 319 00:14:46,805 --> 00:14:48,735 with direct contact with the patient, right? 320 00:14:48,875 --> 00:14:52,885 So, uh, I have, gosh, probably now a thousand examples, 321 00:14:52,935 --> 00:14:56,325 maybe more of practices where, um, 322 00:14:56,435 --> 00:14:57,725 they've had a patient come in, 323 00:14:57,725 --> 00:14:58,885 they've been a repeat patient, 324 00:14:59,105 --> 00:15:01,645 and they've said, you know, I just want my cleaning, right? 325 00:15:01,765 --> 00:15:04,565 I want my cleaning, I want my, you know, whatever they need. 326 00:15:05,305 --> 00:15:08,325 And, you know, or they come in 327 00:15:08,325 --> 00:15:10,405 and they say, I just want a filling, right? 328 00:15:10,605 --> 00:15:13,205 I mean, you know, I don't think you walk in 329 00:15:13,205 --> 00:15:14,565 and go, I, you know, I would just like 330 00:15:14,565 --> 00:15:15,805 surgery on my kidneys, right? 331 00:15:15,825 --> 00:15:17,565 But that, that happens in dentistry, right? 332 00:15:18,305 --> 00:15:21,245 And, you know, by use of the ai, right? 333 00:15:21,345 --> 00:15:24,845 By pulling up the, um, the annotated radiograph 334 00:15:24,905 --> 00:15:27,725 and showing the progression, we've been able to say, Hey, 335 00:15:28,765 --> 00:15:30,325 I know that's what you think you want, 336 00:15:30,825 --> 00:15:33,325 but here's what you actually need and here's why. 337 00:15:33,625 --> 00:15:35,965 And let me show you exactly what this looks like. 338 00:15:35,965 --> 00:15:37,365 And hey, don't take my word for it, 339 00:15:37,365 --> 00:15:39,205 even though I hope you take my word for it. 340 00:15:39,265 --> 00:15:41,685 I'm a, I'm a licensed clinician doing this a long time, 341 00:15:42,465 --> 00:15:44,005 but here is, you know, kind 342 00:15:44,005 --> 00:15:47,365 of a third party objective reality of what's going on there 343 00:15:48,065 --> 00:15:50,845 and educating them that, Hey, you, you actually need this 344 00:15:51,425 --> 00:15:52,485 and you need this now. 345 00:15:52,485 --> 00:15:56,125 And I, I recognize that that is, you know, it's expensive, 346 00:15:56,185 --> 00:15:58,245 but it's something you need to have done. 347 00:15:59,105 --> 00:16:03,605 And, um, we have seen over and over and over 348 00:16:03,705 --> 00:16:05,245 and over again, examples 349 00:16:05,365 --> 00:16:08,205 of us utilizing those technologies in our practices 350 00:16:08,205 --> 00:16:11,805 and being able to educate parent or educate patients, 351 00:16:11,805 --> 00:16:13,685 and I don't wanna say convert them, 352 00:16:14,445 --> 00:16:15,605 although that is the business 353 00:16:15,625 --> 00:16:17,325 and operational reality, right? 354 00:16:17,345 --> 00:16:21,765 It is converting them into revenue, but it is not fabricated 355 00:16:21,825 --> 00:16:23,285 or push revenue, right? 356 00:16:23,305 --> 00:16:26,565 It is objective reality of, you know, this is 357 00:16:26,565 --> 00:16:27,805 what you need, right? 358 00:16:27,985 --> 00:16:31,125 It you, you don't go in with a, you know, with a, uh, 359 00:16:31,405 --> 00:16:32,765 a knife wound on your arm 360 00:16:32,825 --> 00:16:35,485 and say, you know, I would just like a bandaid, right? 361 00:16:35,605 --> 00:16:37,245 I mean, there, there's an objective reality 362 00:16:37,305 --> 00:16:38,525 to that that needs to be fixed. 363 00:16:38,585 --> 00:16:41,485 And I think that that's been coming to dentistry and, 364 00:16:41,585 --> 00:16:44,285 and we have seen that over and over 365 00:16:44,465 --> 00:16:47,285 and over again, that by showing them that kind 366 00:16:47,285 --> 00:16:51,565 of third party objectivity, it allows them to feel educated, 367 00:16:52,695 --> 00:16:55,405 build trust, and convert, um, 368 00:16:56,315 --> 00:16:57,445 into the treatment that they need. 369 00:16:57,545 --> 00:17:02,125 And that delivery of, of true patient care, right? 370 00:17:02,565 --> 00:17:06,005 Educated patient care, um, does have a business 371 00:17:06,005 --> 00:17:07,165 and an operational impact, 372 00:17:07,165 --> 00:17:09,285 because at the end of the day, it does increase revenue, 373 00:17:09,465 --> 00:17:11,005 it does increase productivity. 374 00:17:11,185 --> 00:17:13,005 It, it does all these things 375 00:17:13,005 --> 00:17:15,085 that you do want out of a business, right? 376 00:17:15,425 --> 00:17:19,405 Um, but that also are in the best interest of the patient. 377 00:17:21,135 --> 00:17:23,185 - Yeah. And, and Jonathan, we've, we've covered a, 378 00:17:23,225 --> 00:17:25,705 a good bit of ground and you've talked a a lot about what's 379 00:17:25,735 --> 00:17:28,585 exci, the exciting stuff that that's happening with, with AI 380 00:17:28,585 --> 00:17:30,985 and dentistry, and what could, what could potentially be 381 00:17:30,985 --> 00:17:33,585 around the horizon that could a, as you pointed out, 382 00:17:33,585 --> 00:17:36,225 benefit patients, benefit dental organizations. 383 00:17:36,785 --> 00:17:39,345 Thinking about the next five to 10 years here, 384 00:17:39,445 --> 00:17:41,145 is there anything else that excites you 385 00:17:41,145 --> 00:17:43,345 that you wanna note for, for listeners? 386 00:17:43,365 --> 00:17:45,425 Or if there is, is there anything you wanna revisit 387 00:17:45,785 --> 00:17:47,785 reemphasize for folks as we come to, 388 00:17:47,805 --> 00:17:48,905 to a close here in a bit? 389 00:17:49,645 --> 00:17:52,365 - A bit? I think the biggest thing that I can say is 390 00:17:52,365 --> 00:17:56,525 that things are changing so rapidly every day. 391 00:17:56,835 --> 00:17:59,645 That predicting where we're gonna be in five 392 00:17:59,645 --> 00:18:01,485 to 10 years is almost impossible. 393 00:18:01,505 --> 00:18:04,805 And I'll give you an example. We are working on a project, 394 00:18:05,305 --> 00:18:09,365 um, with, uh, with another, uh, group and vendor, 395 00:18:10,145 --> 00:18:12,805 and we did a demo of it about six months ago, 396 00:18:13,425 --> 00:18:14,885 and it's an AI-based product, 397 00:18:15,465 --> 00:18:19,085 and it was incredible when we saw it, the work we had done 398 00:18:19,085 --> 00:18:21,405 that others had done, it was like, wow, this is incredible. 399 00:18:21,705 --> 00:18:23,525 And I just had a meeting earlier this week 400 00:18:23,525 --> 00:18:25,845 with the same group on the same exact product, 401 00:18:26,265 --> 00:18:27,605 and we were kind of laughing 402 00:18:27,915 --> 00:18:31,725 because the new, the new version is 403 00:18:31,905 --> 00:18:34,165 so much better than the one we thought was 404 00:18:34,165 --> 00:18:35,285 amazing six months ago. 405 00:18:36,055 --> 00:18:39,235 And what was most hilarious about that is 406 00:18:39,235 --> 00:18:42,555 that everything we used to create the new version 407 00:18:43,575 --> 00:18:44,715 wasn't even invented 408 00:18:45,295 --> 00:18:48,755 or available six months ago when we created the old version. 409 00:18:49,335 --> 00:18:50,835 And so that gives you a sense of 410 00:18:50,895 --> 00:18:52,635 how rapidly things are changing. 411 00:18:52,775 --> 00:18:56,635 So I can't predict for you the next three weeks, 412 00:18:57,375 --> 00:18:59,435 let alone the next five to 10 years. 413 00:18:59,675 --> 00:19:04,155 I, I really have no idea where, 414 00:19:04,555 --> 00:19:07,155 I mean, you can think up a thousand use cases for 415 00:19:07,155 --> 00:19:08,155 where IAC could go, 416 00:19:08,335 --> 00:19:11,395 but you've gotta have somebody that is gonna implement it 417 00:19:11,395 --> 00:19:14,875 and operationalize it in a way that works with a variety 418 00:19:14,935 --> 00:19:17,995 of different fragmented systems and, and practices. 419 00:19:18,655 --> 00:19:22,075 And you've gotta, um, do that in a way 420 00:19:22,075 --> 00:19:25,475 where it's not too early for patient adoption, right? 421 00:19:25,505 --> 00:19:29,715 That the, the patient is ready for that type of stair step. 422 00:19:30,055 --> 00:19:34,675 Um, and you know, I, I think this is an incredible time. 423 00:19:35,235 --> 00:19:37,715 I think the word AI just generally gets way 424 00:19:37,775 --> 00:19:39,115 too overused, right? 425 00:19:39,415 --> 00:19:41,355 AI is a really specific thing, 426 00:19:41,375 --> 00:19:43,235 and everything's kind of been categorized 427 00:19:43,265 --> 00:19:44,395 into this AI bucket. 428 00:19:44,615 --> 00:19:47,875 And in reality, a lot of it is just a, you know, kind 429 00:19:47,875 --> 00:19:51,195 of a language model and some, some augmented reality 430 00:19:51,295 --> 00:19:53,155 or some robotic process automation. 431 00:19:53,735 --> 00:19:56,035 But, um, I think true ai 432 00:19:56,055 --> 00:19:58,315 and what can be done with that, um, in the next five, 433 00:19:58,535 --> 00:19:59,875 10 years is just, I, 434 00:19:59,995 --> 00:20:01,195 I couldn't even I couldn't even 435 00:20:01,475 --> 00:20:02,595 forecast it for you if I tried. 436 00:20:04,005 --> 00:20:05,455 - Yeah, no, I mean, that's a great point. 437 00:20:05,535 --> 00:20:07,375 I, I, I think if I think back 438 00:20:07,375 --> 00:20:10,215 to maybe there's some conversations in might have had about, 439 00:20:10,595 --> 00:20:12,015 um, AI or, 440 00:20:12,115 --> 00:20:14,775 or technology, I guess, in, in any space in that 441 00:20:15,395 --> 00:20:18,735 pr like maybe two weeks prior to the launch of, of chat GPT 442 00:20:18,735 --> 00:20:20,575 or like the big embrace, like the right, 443 00:20:20,575 --> 00:20:23,615 that those whole conversations are kind of like, uh, 444 00:20:23,615 --> 00:20:25,295 completely changed after that moment. 445 00:20:25,355 --> 00:20:28,175 So who knows what could, what could happen in the next few 446 00:20:28,175 --> 00:20:29,935 weeks could, so something could come out 447 00:20:29,935 --> 00:20:31,095 that completely changes the game. 448 00:20:31,295 --> 00:20:32,295 I, I, I think to your point, 449 00:20:32,315 --> 00:20:35,615 having some few humility when we get into forecasting 450 00:20:35,615 --> 00:20:36,975 conversations is necessary. 451 00:20:37,655 --> 00:20:39,255 - I, I totally agree. 452 00:20:40,055 --> 00:20:42,905 - Yeah. Yeah. Well, uh, Jonathan, it's been a real treat to, 453 00:20:42,905 --> 00:20:44,905 to have you on and talk through this with you today. 454 00:20:45,325 --> 00:20:46,785 Um, any closing thoughts? 455 00:20:46,785 --> 00:20:48,005 Any final words you wanna share 456 00:20:48,005 --> 00:20:49,405 with our listeners before we sign off? 457 00:20:50,185 --> 00:20:53,445 - No, I mean, I think, I think the biggest thing is don't be 458 00:20:53,445 --> 00:20:55,525 afraid to dip your toe in the water, right? 459 00:20:55,635 --> 00:20:57,885 Even if it is, start with chat, chat GPT, 460 00:20:57,885 --> 00:21:00,565 because this is not going away, right? 461 00:21:00,565 --> 00:21:02,845 This is not, not an eight track tape 462 00:21:02,865 --> 00:21:04,805 that's gonna revolutionize the world, right? 463 00:21:04,875 --> 00:21:08,045 This is, I mean, this is the iPhone, this is the internet. 464 00:21:08,115 --> 00:21:12,365 This is, um, these are these things that you, if you just, 465 00:21:12,505 --> 00:21:14,685 if you don't embrace them, you will be left 466 00:21:14,685 --> 00:21:17,005 behind in the dust by a long shot. 467 00:21:17,505 --> 00:21:20,725 Um, I can tell you that our senior leaders are all taking, 468 00:21:21,345 --> 00:21:23,765 you know, advanced classes, you know, 469 00:21:24,005 --> 00:21:25,965 provided by the Harvards and the Penns 470 00:21:25,965 --> 00:21:28,485 and the Stanfords of the world in ai. 471 00:21:28,485 --> 00:21:31,005 You know, they offer these kind of three month classes just 472 00:21:31,105 --> 00:21:32,845 so that we're not, you know, we, 473 00:21:32,855 --> 00:21:35,805 we're not gonna be the ones developing the ai right? 474 00:21:35,825 --> 00:21:38,885 But we have to know and understand what this is 475 00:21:38,945 --> 00:21:41,645 and dip the toe in the water and really be pursuing it. 476 00:21:41,645 --> 00:21:42,925 Because I think if you don't, 477 00:21:42,925 --> 00:21:44,325 you're gonna be simply left behind. 478 00:21:45,615 --> 00:21:48,225 - Yeah. You, you, you don't wanna be caught flat-footed when 479 00:21:48,225 --> 00:21:50,465 the next thing really comes out that, that, that's changed. 480 00:21:50,485 --> 00:21:54,025 You want to have some sort of, uh, ability around this stuff 481 00:21:54,025 --> 00:21:55,705 and knowledge so you can adopt it, right? 482 00:21:56,055 --> 00:21:58,565 - Yeah. This is not a fad. Yeah. Right, right. 483 00:21:58,565 --> 00:21:59,565 This is not a fad. 484 00:22:00,395 --> 00:22:01,765 - Well, Jonathan, once again, thank you 485 00:22:01,765 --> 00:22:02,965 so much for coming on the podcast. 486 00:22:04,305 --> 00:22:06,125 - Uh, my pleasure. Thanks so much for having me, Brian. 487 00:22:06,725 --> 00:22:08,905 - Yep. And also want to, of course, 488 00:22:09,075 --> 00:22:11,345 thank our podcast sponsor Sage Dental. 489 00:22:11,725 --> 00:22:13,985 You continue to more podcasts from Becker's Healthcare 490 00:22:14,125 --> 00:22:17,625 by visiting our podcast page at becker's podcasts.com. 491 00:22:18,105 --> 00:22:18,225 I.