WEBVTT

00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:29.080
>>Rick: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump.

00:00:29.080 --> 00:00:38.360
My guest this week is Jack O'Keefe, who Jack is short for Jackie, which is short for Jacqueline,

00:00:38.360 --> 00:00:40.760
but you seem to go by the name Jack mostly.

00:00:40.760 --> 00:00:49.160
I'm speaking to her from the hinterlands of Ireland where the internet connection is spotty,

00:00:49.160 --> 00:00:55.200
but we finally managed to work out an arrangement that apparently will work.

00:00:55.200 --> 00:01:00.060
I just stumbled across Jack a couple of weeks ago, which I'm surprised I haven't heard of

00:01:00.060 --> 00:01:04.080
you before, because since I found you other people have been mentioning you and stuff

00:01:04.080 --> 00:01:09.260
like that. But I was just watching some YouTube video with some guy who had seen Amma and

00:01:09.260 --> 00:01:13.800
Adyashanti in one weekend and he was going on about that. And then after I watched that,

00:01:13.800 --> 00:01:19.120
another video came up of you being asked a question by this guy. And so I listened to

00:01:19.120 --> 00:01:23.160
that and I thought, "Oh, she sounds interesting." And then I read your biography on your website

00:01:23.160 --> 00:01:27.520
and I thought, "Whoa, this is a fascinating story. I'd love to talk to this person."

00:01:27.520 --> 00:01:31.040
So we got in touch and here we are.

00:01:31.040 --> 00:01:38.360
So I realize you've probably told your story many times in many satsangs and interviews

00:01:38.360 --> 00:01:43.080
and all. You're probably tired of telling it, but my listeners haven't heard it, and

00:01:43.080 --> 00:01:47.360
most of them probably. So if you wouldn't mind, I'd like you to tell it again in as

00:01:47.360 --> 00:01:51.400
much detail as you'd like, because we have plenty of time. And I may interrupt you from

00:01:51.400 --> 00:01:55.980
time to time to have you embellish on certain aspects of it.

00:01:55.980 --> 00:02:00.080
And then once we've gone through your whole story we'll get to what you probably consider

00:02:00.080 --> 00:02:02.080
to be the more juicy stuff.

00:02:02.080 --> 00:02:09.000
Sure, well actually whatever we talk about is a load of crap anyway, to be honest.

00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:13.920
So it's like one story, they're all stories, even if we're talking non-duality it's still

00:02:13.920 --> 00:02:18.600
a story, I mean silence is anything that is in any way worthwhile I suppose, but it doesn't

00:02:18.600 --> 00:02:20.240
make you listen if they say so.

00:02:20.240 --> 00:02:23.280
It would be very, I think people would tune out pretty quick.

00:02:23.280 --> 00:02:27.720
In fact I did that last week, I was interviewing this guy who has had a spiritual awakening

00:02:27.720 --> 00:02:32.200
but his main interest is in Reiki healing and he actually did a little healing thing

00:02:32.200 --> 00:02:36.640
on me during the interview where we just sat silently for a while.

00:02:36.640 --> 00:02:39.480
Larry King wouldn't do something like that.

00:02:39.480 --> 00:02:43.120
Did it work?

00:02:43.120 --> 00:02:45.000
Sort of.

00:02:45.000 --> 00:02:48.640
I noticed more later on than I noticed during the actual thing.

00:02:48.640 --> 00:02:52.880
Yeah, yeah, some energy shifted somewhere.

00:02:52.880 --> 00:02:57.920
Yeah, alrighty, so the story.

00:02:57.920 --> 00:03:05.640
Well, okay, Catholic rural Ireland, raised on a farm, pretty rough and raw rearing as

00:03:05.640 --> 00:03:14.440
many people have, and a convent all girl boarding school and like, oh my god, can I just grow

00:03:14.440 --> 00:03:16.760
up, can I just get out of this?

00:03:16.760 --> 00:03:23.760
a few scenarios when I was a kid of like, one I remember actually and I don't think I've

00:03:23.760 --> 00:03:29.840
aired it too much because it just came to mind now, I remember hearing on the radio something

00:03:29.840 --> 00:03:36.840
about a mortgage, I'd say I was about 8 and my next older sister who would have been 12

00:03:36.840 --> 00:03:41.480
at the time, I said what's a mortgage, what are they talking about on the radio, what's

00:03:41.480 --> 00:03:45.920
a mortgage and she just said, "You have to get one of those to buy a house."

00:03:45.920 --> 00:03:49.920
I thought, "I don't want to buy a house."

00:03:49.920 --> 00:03:51.720
She said, "You have to buy a house.

00:03:51.720 --> 00:03:55.000
When you get married you have to buy a house and then that's where you have your children."

00:03:55.000 --> 00:03:56.000
This was a nightmare.

00:03:56.000 --> 00:03:57.000
I remember going, "I can't do that.

00:03:57.000 --> 00:03:58.000
I don't want to live like that."

00:03:58.000 --> 00:03:59.000
She said, "But that's what everybody does."

00:03:59.000 --> 00:04:00.000
I was like, "I know.

00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:01.000
No, no, no, no, but that's not what it's about.

00:04:01.000 --> 00:04:02.000
That's not what it's about."

00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:07.440
that? And she said, "But that's what everybody does." I was like, "I know, no, no, no, no,

00:04:07.440 --> 00:04:11.160
but that's not what it's about, that's not what it's about." I actually remember that,

00:04:11.160 --> 00:04:15.960
knowing that, no, that doesn't make sense, even though I got the mortgage and got married,

00:04:15.960 --> 00:04:22.360
I didn't do the kids' bit, I wasn't that brave. But there was something of like, no, even

00:04:22.360 --> 00:04:27.320
at that age, there was something, which there is always with kids, but we often forget it.

00:04:27.320 --> 00:04:32.840
But I didn't forget it, I knew that there was something, it's not about that, whatever we

00:04:32.840 --> 00:04:36.160
talk about it's not about that, I don't know what it's about but it's not about that.

00:04:36.160 --> 00:04:42.960
And then a feeling of in my teenage years waiting to grow up, I just have to wait until I'm old

00:04:42.960 --> 00:04:47.360
enough to find out what this is all about.

00:04:47.360 --> 00:04:51.980
And I remember then actually in university talking to a friend of mine because she met

00:04:51.980 --> 00:04:56.520
me recently and she said I remember, I actually remember smoking a joint with you she said,

00:04:56.520 --> 00:05:00.440
in this house where we shared together and you were saying, "What's it all about?

00:05:00.440 --> 00:05:01.800
What's it all about?"

00:05:01.800 --> 00:05:04.800
I was saying, "What are you asking a question like that for?"

00:05:04.800 --> 00:05:09.280
And I was like, "What's the point in any of it if you don't know what it's for and where

00:05:09.280 --> 00:05:11.360
it's going and why?"

00:05:11.360 --> 00:05:15.560
And she just told me this a few weeks ago, I didn't remember those conversations, I had

00:05:15.560 --> 00:05:20.360
that language at that time, in 1920.

00:05:20.360 --> 00:05:24.600
At that time I went to study theology because I thought, "Well, if I could find out about

00:05:24.600 --> 00:05:31.160
God, then maybe the mystery side of it all could be demystified.

00:05:31.160 --> 00:05:35.840
Theology in Ireland at the time was the study of Catholicism and I didn't know.

00:05:35.840 --> 00:05:42.240
And so after a few months this monotheistic, dogmatic philosophy was clearly about control.

00:05:42.240 --> 00:05:49.200
So I got into a bit of trouble with the priests who were lecturers and they said that, "Well,

00:05:49.200 --> 00:05:53.280
you either leave or you have to go with what we're talking about because you're learning

00:05:53.280 --> 00:05:55.280
how to teach this to other people.

00:05:55.280 --> 00:05:59.480
So you were asking difficult questions and skeptical questions and so on.

00:05:59.480 --> 00:06:04.440
Yes, yes, and the curriculum did not allow for this at all.

00:06:04.440 --> 00:06:08.320
So I made a choice really, I asked my parents and I said, "Can I quit?"

00:06:08.320 --> 00:06:13.160
And they said, "No, we want to retire, you're the last one, you're not on any subsidy, no,

00:06:13.160 --> 00:06:15.000
this is your one shot at education."

00:06:15.000 --> 00:06:16.360
And I'm like, "Okay."

00:06:16.360 --> 00:06:20.240
So I stayed quiet and fulfilled the degree and got out as fast as I could, an atheist,

00:06:20.240 --> 00:06:26.680
a very solid atheist because I was listening and reproducing this crap, actually.

00:06:26.680 --> 00:06:29.640
What did you write your thesis on?

00:06:29.640 --> 00:06:30.640
Confession!

00:06:30.640 --> 00:06:34.440
The sacrament of confession!

00:06:34.440 --> 00:06:40.200
And how it's supposed to work and everything you mean?

00:06:40.200 --> 00:06:42.200
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:06:42.200 --> 00:06:44.280
God, I haven't thought about that since.

00:06:44.280 --> 00:06:48.880
And the thing that pulled me to confession was that there was something, something could

00:06:48.880 --> 00:06:54.560
change in the psyche, in the folding of story, that's really what I was talking about.

00:06:54.560 --> 00:06:59.600
But of course I had to talk about the power of the sacrament and all of that stuff.

00:06:59.600 --> 00:07:02.360
And all the while you were writing this thing you didn't believe what you were writing

00:07:02.360 --> 00:07:05.320
but you just thought, I'm just going to get this over with.

00:07:05.320 --> 00:07:06.320
Yeah.

00:07:06.320 --> 00:07:07.320
That must have been hard.

00:07:07.320 --> 00:07:10.360
It was, but Rick it taught me discipline.

00:07:10.360 --> 00:07:12.760
And it taught me patience.

00:07:12.760 --> 00:07:14.680
Yeah, good point.

00:07:14.680 --> 00:07:18.160
It did, it actually equipped me very well for what was to come.

00:07:18.160 --> 00:07:24.280
And at the time I was just having as much of a social life as I could to balance out this

00:07:24.280 --> 00:07:31.120
awful stuff that was just making me contract.

00:07:31.120 --> 00:07:35.800
So then I got involved in community development, I was very interested in social issues, social

00:07:35.800 --> 00:07:40.400
equality, so I worked in that area for 5, 6, 7, 8 years.

00:07:40.400 --> 00:07:44.920
Barack Obama did that when he was younger too, he was a community organizer in Chicago, he

00:07:44.920 --> 00:07:47.600
gave up all kinds of lucrative things in order to do that.

00:07:47.600 --> 00:07:53.960
Yes, yes, yeah, yeah, and I also at that time, I was always interested in the arts because

00:07:53.960 --> 00:07:59.360
music was a thing that was just kind of cruising around, it followed me all the time, and so

00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:05.400
I got interested in how the arts could access something else in people who lived in disadvantage.

00:08:05.400 --> 00:08:14.400
So I jumped into that, not having the language again, that how artistic expression is an inaudible

00:08:14.400 --> 00:08:20.680
voice from that which is beyond concept. Were you a musician or were you just studying

00:08:20.680 --> 00:08:27.680
it academically or something? Yeah, both. I played the cello and I did music

00:08:27.680 --> 00:08:36.360
just as a primary degree. So then at the age of 30 I was running my own

00:08:36.360 --> 00:08:43.320
freelance consultancy business for community development organizations and working hard

00:08:43.320 --> 00:08:45.400
No one playing hard.

00:08:45.400 --> 00:08:51.440
And there was six of us having Sunday lunch, three couples, myself and my husband drinking

00:08:51.440 --> 00:08:52.440
one of them.

00:08:52.440 --> 00:08:56.320
And I was drinking a can of Heineken and I put it down on the table and lifted my head

00:08:56.320 --> 00:08:59.480
and I saw dead people hanging from the ceiling all around.

00:08:59.480 --> 00:09:03.000
And I said, "Okay, okay, I'm tripping, I'm tripping, who's giving me what?

00:09:03.000 --> 00:09:04.000
This is not okay.

00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:05.000
What's going on?"

00:09:05.000 --> 00:09:08.000
And my friends just said, "What are you talking about?"

00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:16.760
And somebody's given me something, I can see stuff, and of course they hadn't given me

00:09:16.760 --> 00:09:26.580
anything and so what it was was some third eye capacity, some perception of the non-physical

00:09:26.580 --> 00:09:27.580
appeared.

00:09:27.580 --> 00:09:31.000
>>Rick: But of course you didn't know that at the time, you thought you were going crazy

00:09:31.000 --> 00:09:32.000
or something.

00:09:32.000 --> 00:09:35.480
>>Karen: When you're dead that's the end of the show and happy days when that comes, it

00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:40.440
was as clean and clear as that. So then what to do with these dead people? So it was like,

00:09:40.440 --> 00:09:44.720
so does this mean then that when your body dies you're not dead? Oh, I have to start

00:09:44.720 --> 00:09:48.400
at the start here. So then is there a God? I mean the whole can of worms opened.

00:09:48.400 --> 00:09:50.800
Let me just ask you about these dead people, because you also had this experience, you

00:09:50.800 --> 00:09:57.160
were in the bank and someone appeared behind the teller and asked you to tell this woman

00:09:57.160 --> 00:10:02.520
not to marry so and so, and it turned out to be the woman's mother and so on. Did they

00:10:02.520 --> 00:10:08.360
They appear kind of wispy and ethereal or they weren't concrete like you might see in the

00:10:08.360 --> 00:10:09.680
movies or something?

00:10:09.680 --> 00:10:14.600
>>Kiran: Yeah, no they're not as concrete, to these eyes or whatever you can say, they're

00:10:14.600 --> 00:10:21.960
not as concrete, there's kind of something, yeah you could, there's a translucency, so

00:10:21.960 --> 00:10:25.960
you know who's a spook and who's not, there's never a question of like, you know.

00:10:25.960 --> 00:10:30.360
>>Rick: But you can tell, ok this is an older woman or this is a young man or whatever.

00:10:30.360 --> 00:10:32.600
Oh yeah, the features are quite clear.

00:10:32.600 --> 00:10:35.120
And why were there so many of them hanging around a restaurant?

00:10:35.120 --> 00:10:38.480
Did a lot of people die of food poisoning there?

00:10:38.480 --> 00:10:46.440
Well we were in somebody's house, it was an old house, funnily enough, it was an old house,

00:10:46.440 --> 00:10:52.080
it had been a rectory and it was this woman's mum, we were having a party basically for

00:10:52.080 --> 00:10:57.320
the weekend and one of my friends, you know, it was her mother's house, and it had been

00:10:57.320 --> 00:11:04.600
So it was steeped in lore and stories and history, it was an ancient house with a protection

00:11:04.600 --> 00:11:07.320
order and everything on it.

00:11:07.320 --> 00:11:12.520
So I ran out of the house and the boys, the three lads who were there said, "We're

00:11:12.520 --> 00:11:17.000
going to the pub anyway, I don't know what's going on with you Jack, but get over it,

00:11:17.000 --> 00:11:21.440
I'll stay and do the dishes, it's ok."

00:11:21.440 --> 00:11:24.280
And the thing was, I was petrified.

00:11:24.280 --> 00:11:29.280
I was petrified because I had no control, first of all, and that was something that I wasn't

00:11:29.280 --> 00:11:30.280
familiar with.

00:11:30.280 --> 00:11:32.480
No control meaning you had no choice but to see these things?

00:11:32.480 --> 00:11:33.480
Exactly.

00:11:33.480 --> 00:11:34.480
I couldn't turn them off, it was upsetting.

00:11:34.480 --> 00:11:40.560
On my belief system I couldn't stop them from engaging with me in any way.

00:11:40.560 --> 00:11:41.560
And there was certainly a...

00:11:41.560 --> 00:11:42.560
Were they engaging with you?

00:11:42.560 --> 00:11:43.560
Yes.

00:11:43.560 --> 00:11:44.560
Or were they just hanging around?

00:11:44.560 --> 00:11:47.720
Or were they saying, "Hey, we know you can see us and we want to tell you something."

00:11:47.720 --> 00:11:49.280
Yes, they started to engage.

00:11:49.280 --> 00:11:55.800
about an hour they started to engage and I suppose it's because I engaged with them,

00:11:55.800 --> 00:12:01.880
looking now at how energy works, I definitely started to become visible to them because

00:12:01.880 --> 00:12:06.560
I was sending an emotion there or looking at them and validating their existence and

00:12:06.560 --> 00:12:10.360
they were validating my existence and lo and behold separation is there and now we've

00:12:10.360 --> 00:12:12.000
got this other dimension in this dimension.

00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:14.440
>>Rick: Did they seem malevolent or were they friendly?

00:12:14.440 --> 00:12:15.440
>>Kiran: No, malevolent.

00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:16.440
>>Rick: Oh really?

00:12:16.440 --> 00:12:17.440
>>Kiran: Yeah.

00:12:17.440 --> 00:12:20.800
Maybe the friendly ones had moved on or something.

00:12:20.800 --> 00:12:24.160
Malevolent ones were stuck.

00:12:24.160 --> 00:12:29.640
They were stuck, and that's usually what it is, you know, where there's a lot of unfinished

00:12:29.640 --> 00:12:34.540
business, you know, if there's a lot of pain going on you tend to project that pain or

00:12:34.540 --> 00:12:39.160
communicate with and through that pain, and these ones that came to me, yeah, there was

00:12:39.160 --> 00:12:42.080
a lot of pain going on, there was a lot of pain, and maybe I would have taken no notice

00:12:42.080 --> 00:12:46.780
of the other ones, these ones were just eager to get out of their pain, as is the position

00:12:46.780 --> 00:12:50.500
of any sufferer. So were they asking you for help?

00:12:50.500 --> 00:12:56.260
They started messing with me, physically pushing me around the place and that's how I knew,

00:12:56.260 --> 00:13:01.560
I thought, ok I'm really not imagining this because I'm being kind of, not beaten up but

00:13:01.560 --> 00:13:04.700
chucked against a wall. Really? So you'd like stumble into walls and

00:13:04.700 --> 00:13:07.500
things? Yes, yes, so I ran out of the house and I

00:13:07.500 --> 00:13:11.740
clung against a wall, you know, and I would try to run into the house and as I would leave

00:13:11.740 --> 00:13:16.100
the wall I would get whacked back again. So even though they were ethereal they could

00:13:16.100 --> 00:13:19.340
would actually have an impact on the physical level

00:13:19.340 --> 00:13:21.940
that's exactly it, there was some tactile

00:13:21.940 --> 00:13:27.340
the capacity that they had, yeah, and I think what enabled that was my own fear

00:13:27.340 --> 00:13:32.980
and made you vulnerable or something, yeah it made me completely exposed

00:13:32.980 --> 00:13:35.100
I was petrified, I can imagine

00:13:35.100 --> 00:13:37.980
completely out of my realm of what was possible, not to mind

00:13:37.980 --> 00:13:40.780
it being a real experience you know at the time

00:13:40.780 --> 00:13:44.740
so there was no sense of having any handle on it at all

00:13:44.740 --> 00:13:49.640
it at all for a couple of weeks. I'd say there was two or three weeks of the light was on

00:13:49.640 --> 00:13:53.900
all night. I was just, "What can I do about this? What can I do?" It was, "Go away, go

00:13:53.900 --> 00:13:55.140
away!" There they are again.

00:13:55.140 --> 00:13:58.620
>>What would happen when you tried to go to sleep?

00:13:58.620 --> 00:14:00.780
>>I would fall asleep from absolute exhaustion.

00:14:00.780 --> 00:14:03.620
>>Would they mess with you in your sleep or anything?

00:14:03.620 --> 00:14:08.660
>>Oh yeah. They would wake me up. There'd be pressure on my body. Yeah, your typical horror

00:14:08.660 --> 00:14:13.060
movie stuff, you know? Really, it was just a horror movie. Those scripts are not so far

00:14:13.060 --> 00:14:14.060
from what you...

00:14:14.060 --> 00:14:16.980
human spooks or did you also see animals and things like that?

00:14:16.980 --> 00:14:22.980
No, human. The animals were very benevolent. They were beautiful, they were just easy.

00:14:22.980 --> 00:14:28.780
Oh, you mean you saw ghostly animals or you just saw, oh ok, but they were ok.

00:14:28.780 --> 00:14:34.900
But they were always nice and at peace and just sitting there. I never saw a dinosaur,

00:14:34.900 --> 00:14:41.340
was there anything but dogs, swans, elephants, but very nice, very gentle and just looking.

00:14:41.340 --> 00:14:44.700
>>Rick: So you'd be in rural Ireland seeing an elephant.

00:14:44.700 --> 00:14:45.700
>>Kiran: Yeah.

00:14:45.700 --> 00:14:49.460
>>Rick: I imagine many Irish have seen elephants but not for this reason.

00:14:49.460 --> 00:14:53.460
They saw pink ones mostly.

00:14:53.460 --> 00:15:02.260
>>Kiran: Yeah, the odd dumbbell flying past the window.

00:15:02.260 --> 00:15:09.180
It's funny, it's totally wacky, you know, and if I hadn't been so practical and down

00:15:09.180 --> 00:15:16.180
to earth, it had to be that problem.

00:15:16.180 --> 00:15:24.100
This is too crazy, this is too far removed from what is normal, real and ok, now I want

00:15:24.100 --> 00:15:26.900
to see the world, so what am I going to do with it?

00:15:26.900 --> 00:15:31.820
And I remember at that point thinking, ok, shut it down or move with it, what are you

00:15:31.820 --> 00:15:32.820
going to do here?

00:15:32.820 --> 00:15:36.900
I remember talking to my husband about this, and he said, well it's your choice, really

00:15:36.900 --> 00:15:42.100
I can't, it's completely your story here, I have no perspective at all.

00:15:42.100 --> 00:15:47.700
So I said, well if I shut it down, life continues as it is, but you know what, maybe I can learn

00:15:47.700 --> 00:15:48.700
something.

00:15:48.700 --> 00:15:52.100
It's kind of too interesting, even though I'm petrified.

00:15:52.100 --> 00:15:54.100
And you didn't have a choice to shut it down anyway.

00:15:54.100 --> 00:15:56.540
No, which I thought I did of course.

00:15:56.540 --> 00:15:59.500
You thought you didn't have some little switch you could take, I suppose you could have taken

00:15:59.500 --> 00:16:01.500
some drugs or something.

00:16:01.500 --> 00:16:05.460
I guess, just like I just did, and you're told it's a psychotic, and then that path happens,

00:16:05.460 --> 00:16:10.980
>>Rick: Yeah, they could have locked you up, probably people are locked up who had this

00:16:10.980 --> 00:16:15.380
happen to them and it was just as legitimate as your experience, but they went and sought

00:16:15.380 --> 00:16:18.980
help and were diagnosed as crazy and they're behind bars now.

00:16:18.980 --> 00:16:23.220
>>Kiran: That's exactly it, that was the other option, even though I didn't ever have the

00:16:23.220 --> 00:16:28.220
label of "oh this is a psychiatric thing", my brain didn't go there.

00:16:28.220 --> 00:16:32.700
But if I had gotten help, of course that would have been where I would have gone from.

00:16:32.700 --> 00:16:35.380
Yeah, or you'd be on Thorazine or something.

00:16:35.380 --> 00:16:37.780
Yeah, no sweat, but it would have been psychiatric.

00:16:37.780 --> 00:16:42.060
There's no other route out there for that kind of an experience.

00:16:42.060 --> 00:16:45.740
And all it is, is just that, I don't know, it can be a few things I suppose, but it's

00:16:45.740 --> 00:16:51.060
like the limits of mind start to break down, the limits of what you think is real starts

00:16:51.060 --> 00:16:52.380
to break.

00:16:52.380 --> 00:16:56.580
So the lack of reality in all of it starts to appear.

00:16:56.580 --> 00:16:59.460
And so then everything is possible starts to appear.

00:16:59.460 --> 00:17:01.740
Interesting, so that's a lesson.

00:17:01.740 --> 00:17:09.940
Yeah, all of these things were coming in and I was like, oh, so then there are other dimensions

00:17:09.940 --> 00:17:12.660
after all, that's not just all fairy tales.

00:17:12.660 --> 00:17:18.220
Ok, so maybe then there are actually Irish leprechauns, maybe it's that far fetched,

00:17:18.220 --> 00:17:19.220
that all of it is possible.

00:17:19.220 --> 00:17:20.220
Did you see any leprechauns?

00:17:20.220 --> 00:17:25.420
Oh God, I mean, or are we getting ahead of ourselves?

00:17:25.420 --> 00:17:31.140
I should just have "flake" written across here.

00:17:31.140 --> 00:17:36.500
R: That's ok, I think most people who would appreciate what you're going to be saying

00:17:36.500 --> 00:17:41.460
in a little while will also appreciate this and I think they'll find the progression

00:17:41.460 --> 00:17:42.460
fascinating.

00:17:42.460 --> 00:17:49.060
J: Yeah, of course, because that's the story, that's how it works.

00:17:49.060 --> 00:17:57.380
Yeah, sure, leprechauns, fairies, the whole lot, all kinds of creatures in woodlands,

00:17:57.380 --> 00:17:58.380
man!

00:17:58.380 --> 00:18:05.020
Woodlands that haven't been, that are indigenous, that haven't been created so much, ones that

00:18:05.020 --> 00:18:12.900
are indigenous are teeming with the indigenous non-physical, can I say spiritual, realm?

00:18:12.900 --> 00:18:17.180
>>Karen: Yeah, you know, wildly, wildly fascinating beings.

00:18:17.180 --> 00:18:21.100
>>Rick: Just as common as the birds and the butterflies and the insects and everything

00:18:21.100 --> 00:18:22.100
else.

00:18:22.100 --> 00:18:25.100
>>Karen: Same, same, same, same, yeah.

00:18:25.100 --> 00:18:32.220
>>Rick: And steer me clear if I'm distracting you from something you want to unfold, but

00:18:32.220 --> 00:18:36.340
I'm trying to extract as much interesting detail out of this as possible.

00:18:36.340 --> 00:18:43.020
So did that phase of seeing the woodland, the subtle beings in the woods, happen around

00:18:43.020 --> 00:18:46.820
the same time as the ghosts or was that later on once you had come to terms with the fact

00:18:46.820 --> 00:18:49.060
that you were having subtle perception?

00:18:49.060 --> 00:18:56.400
Yes, it came later on, I'd say about two years later, before I could see woodland life

00:18:56.400 --> 00:18:57.400
forms.

00:18:57.400 --> 00:18:59.980
And by that time you were kind of adjusted to the whole thing, I suppose.

00:18:59.980 --> 00:19:03.300
I was, it was like it was no big deal, then it was like, "Oh, hello!"

00:19:03.300 --> 00:19:04.300
know?

00:19:04.300 --> 00:19:07.740
It was just a new form of rabbit, you know?

00:19:07.740 --> 00:19:12.620
>>Rick: And did they too communicate with you, the little leprechauns and stuff?

00:19:12.620 --> 00:19:15.380
You were able to converse in some way?

00:19:15.380 --> 00:19:17.980
Obviously not in English but telepathically or something?

00:19:17.980 --> 00:19:18.980
>>Kiran: Yeah, telepathically.

00:19:18.980 --> 00:19:19.980
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:19:19.980 --> 00:19:20.980
It's all there.

00:19:20.980 --> 00:19:26.940
You know, the astral body moves into these dimensions and does this when you're asleep

00:19:26.940 --> 00:19:27.940
anyway.

00:19:27.940 --> 00:19:32.580
I mean, you know, it's just, if there are beliefs that the world is a certain way, well

00:19:32.580 --> 00:19:34.640
this stuff is really hard to take.

00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:39.460
And for me those beliefs were very rigid, they were really rigid, I kind of knew how the world

00:19:39.460 --> 00:19:42.140
worked and I could sort it all out.

00:19:42.140 --> 00:19:47.420
Jesus, it had to be attacked with a sledgehammer, so it was.

00:19:47.420 --> 00:19:52.740
>>Rick: I think most people feel that way but most people don't have your experience.

00:19:52.740 --> 00:19:57.380
>>Kiran: Yeah, for some reason this was just on the destiny of the woman called Jack.

00:19:57.380 --> 00:20:00.760
>>Rick Most people get hard life lessons in the gross

00:20:00.760 --> 00:20:06.140
level like foreclosuring on their home or a divorce or an illness or something and that

00:20:06.140 --> 00:20:10.660
shakes them up but you sort of had it crack open in a vertical dimension.

00:20:10.660 --> 00:20:13.100
>>Kiran That's right, that's right, it was huge because

00:20:13.100 --> 00:20:19.180
I remember the thought that was running all through the first, I'd say two years of this,

00:20:19.180 --> 00:20:24.220
while fear was in the beginning huge and then it was slipping a little bit, I was getting

00:20:24.220 --> 00:20:27.460
some handle on being okay with what was happening.

00:20:27.460 --> 00:20:33.220
During that time there was one thought running which was, because this realm that has invaded

00:20:33.220 --> 00:20:39.140
my realm is beyond death, I can't kill myself to get out of this.

00:20:39.140 --> 00:20:40.140
>>Rick: Interesting.

00:20:40.140 --> 00:20:44.460
>>Kiran: So, or if I could kill myself, this physical body goes, but actually I'm not sure

00:20:44.460 --> 00:20:45.460
if anything else is going to change.

00:20:45.460 --> 00:20:46.460
>>Rick: You might become one of those spooks.

00:20:46.460 --> 00:20:49.520
>>Kiran: Yeah, I'm just one of those.

00:20:49.520 --> 00:20:51.420
So nothing can be gained by killing myself.

00:20:51.420 --> 00:20:56.620
so I felt so trapped Rick, I mean it was like I have no option here, there is nothing to

00:20:56.620 --> 00:20:58.580
do here but I have to go through with this.

00:20:58.580 --> 00:21:02.340
There are plenty of books on this kind of stuff and you live not too far from Fyndhorn

00:21:02.340 --> 00:21:04.860
and things like that, did you look into any of those things?

00:21:04.860 --> 00:21:09.340
I didn't know what Fyndhorn was, I didn't know, I'd never heard the word new age, nothing,

00:21:09.340 --> 00:21:12.940
I'd never heard the word freaky, you mentioned that earlier, I mean nothing.

00:21:12.940 --> 00:21:15.420
You were just a Heineken girl that had her reality.

00:21:15.420 --> 00:21:22.420
I'm going to give it my day and give it my night!

00:21:22.420 --> 00:21:27.420
Yeah, and working hard and social stuff gave me a buzz, the arts gave me a buzz and it didn't

00:21:27.420 --> 00:21:31.220
go any further, that was the world.

00:21:31.220 --> 00:21:36.180
Was your business disrupted by all this?

00:21:36.180 --> 00:21:38.140
Did you find it hard to function?

00:21:38.140 --> 00:21:40.820
I had to shut it down.

00:21:40.820 --> 00:21:47.820
Okay, here's a story. I wasn't too long into it, I think, oh yeah, it was exactly one week

00:21:47.820 --> 00:21:57.340
since the first episode of Casper's Everywhere. I woke up in the middle of the night and heard

00:21:57.340 --> 00:22:04.100
something in the living room and there was a woman hanging from the ceiling.

00:22:04.100 --> 00:22:06.900
Hanging as with a noose or just hanging up there?

00:22:06.900 --> 00:22:12.060
suspended suspended yeah floating with quite deftly quite deftly looking and I

00:22:12.060 --> 00:22:16.820
was get out of my house get out of my house and and she said she said you can

00:22:16.820 --> 00:22:19.380
help me I said I can't do anything for you get out of my house I can't you're

00:22:19.380 --> 00:22:23.220
dead you know now let me ask you this when you when you had that conversation

00:22:23.220 --> 00:22:25.700
with her were you speaking out loud such that your husband could have heard you

00:22:25.700 --> 00:22:30.940
or was it all mental I I wasn't because he told me he would have heard it and he

00:22:30.940 --> 00:22:34.020
didn't hear it so it must have been mental even though I thought I was being

00:22:34.020 --> 00:22:40.220
I said, "You must have heard me!" and he said, "No, I really would have heard you."

00:22:40.220 --> 00:22:44.340
The door was open and he's a light sleeper.

00:22:44.340 --> 00:22:47.180
So I thought I was talking but obviously I wasn't.

00:22:47.180 --> 00:22:52.260
It was in some non-verbal way, but I hadn't twigged at that time that you don't need to

00:22:52.260 --> 00:22:59.460
use sound for your mental sentence to be given and another one received.

00:22:59.460 --> 00:23:03.460
So what she said is, "You will do something to move me on, you know how to do it."

00:23:03.460 --> 00:23:06.260
I said I don't know what to do, will you tell me?

00:23:06.260 --> 00:23:11.540
And she said, look treat me as you would one of your friends and I said, ok but I don't

00:23:11.540 --> 00:23:14.380
know you and she said, well you just imagine that you know me and I was putting up every

00:23:14.380 --> 00:23:19.500
defense I was being a sloppy old cow you know and I just said, well if you were one of her

00:23:19.500 --> 00:23:22.500
friends then I would feel compassion for you, I would send you love because you look like

00:23:22.500 --> 00:23:27.820
you're in awful pain and she said I am and I'm stuck and I need energy from your world

00:23:27.820 --> 00:23:29.900
to move to where I'm supposed to go next.

00:23:29.900 --> 00:23:33.640
So I said, "Ok, well then I'm just going to imagine you're somebody I know and I'll send

00:23:33.640 --> 00:23:34.640
you love."

00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:39.120
And I put my two hands out to her and this beam of light came down from the ceiling and

00:23:39.120 --> 00:23:45.680
my heart was beating, this thing came down and I intuitively caught it and I bent it

00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:55.080
towards her and it actually felt like a hose pipe, it was tactile and I said, "Oh my God,

00:23:55.080 --> 00:23:58.480
this is just love, it's just love, that's all you want actually is love."

00:23:58.480 --> 00:24:03.920
And so she said, "You will do this to others like me."

00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:05.920
And she left.

00:24:05.920 --> 00:24:06.920
Interesting.

00:24:06.920 --> 00:24:09.680
That beam of light thing is kind of interesting.

00:24:09.680 --> 00:24:14.320
It almost sounds as though there wasn't just you and her in the equation, there was also

00:24:14.320 --> 00:24:19.440
something sending that beam that wanted you to intermediate and kind of connect, be a

00:24:19.440 --> 00:24:22.040
conduit so that beam could connect with her.

00:24:22.040 --> 00:24:25.920
For why they couldn't connect the beam directly to her without you, I don't know.

00:24:25.920 --> 00:24:28.840
>>Kiran Yes, it was for my benefit, I suppose in hindsight

00:24:28.840 --> 00:24:33.600
the learning was for me, she came to teach me, you know, she was a working experiment,

00:24:33.600 --> 00:24:35.080
you know, and volunteered I guess.

00:24:35.080 --> 00:24:37.080
>>Rick Well it sounds like it was mutual too, because

00:24:37.080 --> 00:24:39.040
she appears to have needed help.

00:24:39.040 --> 00:24:41.840
>>Kiran She did, but was it enough or not I don't

00:24:41.840 --> 00:24:44.240
know, but she said it was, so I did the trick.

00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:47.440
Now the funny thing is, I went back to bed, immediately after this I went back to bed

00:24:47.440 --> 00:24:53.800
and I was like dripping and like adrenals pumping and I thought, oh my god, oh my god,

00:24:53.800 --> 00:24:58.280
And this other man appeared at the end of the bed and I said, "Get out of here, get out

00:24:58.280 --> 00:25:02.880
of here, I've had too much to digest for one night, get out of here, enough!"

00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:08.360
And he said, "I'm here to help you and I will tell you anything you need to know, anything."

00:25:08.360 --> 00:25:12.640
And I said, "Okay, so tell me your name then if we're going to talk and if you're here

00:25:12.640 --> 00:25:14.400
to tell me I need your name."

00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:21.200
And he said, "I can't tell it to you yet," he said, "but you know, call me Liam because

00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:25.320
Because it's an Irish name and I know you don't like that name and I thought, actually I don't,

00:25:25.320 --> 00:25:29.400
okay, okay, alright, alright, look at this guy knows something and he's got a bit of

00:25:29.400 --> 00:25:30.400
a sense of humor, alright.

00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:33.960
So I said okay, let's start at the start then.

00:25:33.960 --> 00:25:35.220
Is there a God?

00:25:35.220 --> 00:25:42.160
And I sat up on the bed and I knew this part was telepathic because I wouldn't have the

00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:45.840
sentence out and the sentence would be back, the answer would be back, the speed of his

00:25:45.840 --> 00:25:50.760
transmission was phenomenal and he was full of light, I could see his eyes but it's like

00:25:50.760 --> 00:25:57.160
there was this light, a dazzling light radiating from his chest to such an extent that it covered

00:25:57.160 --> 00:25:58.160
most of his features.

00:25:58.160 --> 00:26:01.160
So I couldn't make out too much of his features.

00:26:01.160 --> 00:26:09.200
Then we spoke for a long time and he just said, "If you do follow this path," and it looked

00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:11.640
like I had a choice because that's what he had to work with.

00:26:11.640 --> 00:26:16.240
He had to work with where my brain and my understanding and my limitations were.

00:26:16.240 --> 00:26:18.760
So he did yield to that.

00:26:18.760 --> 00:26:23.000
And I suppose that's where Jack has the practice of that now also, seeking the value of that,

00:26:23.000 --> 00:26:27.880
of where the belief stuck, and let's move from there.

00:26:27.880 --> 00:26:33.720
And so he said, "Well, your life is going to change hugely if you go with this."

00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:36.880
So I said, "Yeah, but what's in it for me if I do?"

00:26:36.880 --> 00:26:37.880
Practical question.

00:26:37.880 --> 00:26:42.480
Yeah, yeah, of course, all about me.

00:26:42.480 --> 00:26:45.040
And he said, "This is what you will get."

00:26:45.040 --> 00:26:50.600
And this sensation came up, which I don't know, a lot of Kundalini happened after that, can

00:26:50.600 --> 00:26:52.800
you multiply Kundalini by a thousand?

00:26:52.800 --> 00:27:00.120
You know, I mean phenomenal, arresting sensation, that was just like, Jesus, that's off the

00:27:00.120 --> 00:27:01.120
Richter scale.

00:27:01.120 --> 00:27:05.120
And he said, that is a teaspoon of love.

00:27:05.120 --> 00:27:07.160
And love is what this is all about.

00:27:07.160 --> 00:27:10.880
And you are looking at a teaspoon of a liquid that is greater than the largest ocean on the

00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:11.880
planet.

00:27:11.880 --> 00:27:16.440
And I went, "Ah, ok, this is just off the Richter scale."

00:27:16.440 --> 00:27:20.320
And he said, "Yes, you can't comprehend what I'm talking about.

00:27:20.320 --> 00:27:22.680
Do you want to pursue a path that is about this?"

00:27:22.680 --> 00:27:25.280
I said, "Yes, do exactly what you like."

00:27:25.280 --> 00:27:30.680
And then he said, "Well, ok, tomorrow morning you're going to imagine, you will now decide

00:27:30.680 --> 00:27:32.680
that you imagined this sensation.

00:27:32.680 --> 00:27:37.400
So I'm going to give it to you again, because you doubt a lot, which I did of course at

00:27:37.400 --> 00:27:40.200
the time, and so he said, "Just prepare yourself."

00:27:40.200 --> 00:27:44.320
So I laid down on the bed and I thought, "Okay, now," so that I could imagine, that I could

00:27:44.320 --> 00:27:47.960
observe, but you would swallow the observer totally.

00:27:47.960 --> 00:27:51.000
I went, "Okay, I'm going to go for this, take it away."

00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:54.760
Now, I've got to jump in to follow up this story, Rick.

00:27:54.760 --> 00:27:57.320
Eight years later I found out who this guy was.

00:27:57.320 --> 00:28:05.200
Four, five, six, I'm just working out the year.

00:28:05.200 --> 00:28:12.600
years after this, I connected with a spiritual master, who's called Master Jose, who's I

00:28:12.600 --> 00:28:15.360
guess he must be late 50s now.

00:28:15.360 --> 00:28:17.000
He's alive, he's a physical person?

00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:20.840
Yeah, he's in a physical body, I've never physically met him, because of the clairvoyance

00:28:20.840 --> 00:28:24.520
it was no big deal because I can see him, I can call him in.

00:28:24.520 --> 00:28:26.040
He's actually in some place, Ecuador?

00:28:26.040 --> 00:28:34.520
Yeah, he's got a wife and he lives in a house, and a son, and he lives in the north of Spain

00:28:34.520 --> 00:28:41.520
still, and he runs meditation retreats, or a disciple of his runs meditation retreats,

00:28:41.520 --> 00:28:48.060
and they do a type of chanting and a type of healing, and it's totally the devotional

00:28:48.060 --> 00:28:54.520
path, totally. And I connected with this six years later, and went to several of these

00:28:54.520 --> 00:29:00.840
retreats. Now, two years into this meditation, coming in and out, getting deeper and deeper

00:29:00.840 --> 00:29:05.240
and beginning to follow this guy and thinking, "Gosh, this guy is very clear and any time

00:29:05.240 --> 00:29:08.560
I go to these retreats I tune into him, the clarity is phenomenal and something tends

00:29:08.560 --> 00:29:11.280
to drop out of all of the story of Jack."

00:29:11.280 --> 00:29:16.880
So, God, this is the purest I can find, having looked at New Age, having tried everything

00:29:16.880 --> 00:29:19.800
at that point that you can find.

00:29:19.800 --> 00:29:25.600
And at this retreat we were chanting and it was the closing event and he appeared in front

00:29:25.600 --> 00:29:31.440
of me and I went, "Oh, hello," and he said, and it was telepathically because everybody

00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:38.440
was singing around me, and he said, "I'm Liam," Master Poseidon, and I went, "Who's Liam?"

00:29:38.440 --> 00:29:39.360
Sure it was just like ...

00:29:39.360 --> 00:29:40.440
>>Rick: You forgot that.

00:29:40.440 --> 00:29:44.000
>>Kiran: Yeah, I completely had, like it was just a story six years before.

00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:45.000
"Who's Liam?"

00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:46.640
And he said, "You remember this?"

00:29:46.640 --> 00:29:51.760
And he opened his hands and the image of him at the foot of my bed, I said, "Jesus Christ,

00:29:51.760 --> 00:29:52.760
you're joking!"

00:29:52.760 --> 00:29:56.680
And he went, "That was me, and I've waited for six years while you went to South America,

00:29:56.680 --> 00:30:01.760
took loads of this, that and the next, thinking that you can find God through everything except

00:30:01.760 --> 00:30:03.020
through your heart.

00:30:03.020 --> 00:30:05.760
So my dear, are you ready to walk with me?

00:30:05.760 --> 00:30:08.480
Now you're ready to work with a master."

00:30:08.480 --> 00:30:15.120
I went, "Okay, if you have that kind of love that you sit watching me going around the

00:30:15.120 --> 00:30:19.920
world doing stupid things in search of what you know I'm looking for, sure.

00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:22.720
Okay, I trust you, I go for it."

00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:28.120
I cried and cried and cried and some things said, "Okay, the search now gets easier.

00:30:28.120 --> 00:30:31.040
Whatever it is you're looking for, he knows what you're looking for but you don't know

00:30:31.040 --> 00:30:33.960
what you're looking for, you just know that you're looking."

00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:34.960
I had that much.

00:30:34.960 --> 00:30:38.920
And so all kinds of resistance to following a master was the next couple of weeks.

00:30:38.920 --> 00:30:39.920
It should be a woman.

00:30:39.920 --> 00:30:41.520
Hang on just one second.

00:30:41.520 --> 00:30:45.960
So do you actually want to skip the last six years and pick it up from there or is there

00:30:45.960 --> 00:30:50.120
anything worth talking about during those six years when you went to South America and

00:30:50.120 --> 00:30:51.120
everything?

00:30:51.120 --> 00:30:55.120
And you actually worked as a ghostbuster in Ireland?

00:30:55.120 --> 00:30:58.120
Yeah, I did. I can give you a brief synopsis.

00:30:58.120 --> 00:31:02.120
Hang on one second. Please continue.

00:31:02.120 --> 00:31:07.120
So that's six years in a synopsized version.

00:31:07.120 --> 00:31:16.120
Liam, or Master Jose, told me that to walk this path, do not take on any more contracts,

00:31:16.120 --> 00:31:19.880
contracts, because I was working freelance at the time, within six months you will be

00:31:19.880 --> 00:31:24.480
working as a ghostbuster. And I was like, "Oh no, not that kind of jitter!" But he said,

00:31:24.480 --> 00:31:27.400
"If you go through this path, you will find out about fear."

00:31:27.400 --> 00:31:30.360
I'm sure you've seen that movie, right? Ghostbusters?

00:31:30.360 --> 00:31:34.800
Oh yeah, yeah, The Sixth Sense, The Sixth Sense was great.

00:31:34.800 --> 00:31:38.600
That was great too, but you remember the old one with Dan Aykroyd and…

00:31:38.600 --> 00:31:40.880
I do, I do. Who are you going to call?

00:31:40.880 --> 00:31:44.720
I was like, "Oh yeah, I'm going to cross the beams!"

00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:45.720
Great movie.

00:31:45.720 --> 00:31:49.880
That one wasn't researched very well, but Sixth Sense was.

00:31:49.880 --> 00:31:52.560
Oh yeah, that was a great movie.

00:31:52.560 --> 00:31:58.760
So yeah, within six months then I started working as a Ghostbuster.

00:31:58.760 --> 00:32:04.600
Within I don't know, I'd say maybe a year of working as a Ghostbuster, and he told me

00:32:04.600 --> 00:32:05.600
to call it a Ghostbuster.

00:32:05.600 --> 00:32:09.720
He said, "You're so concerned about your self-image, if you call yourself a Ghostbuster you're going

00:32:09.720 --> 00:32:16.380
on a cringe and I'm like, "Oh God, this guy knows me too well, I was ready to admit that."

00:32:16.380 --> 00:32:19.360
And so that name stopped.

00:32:19.360 --> 00:32:25.240
So did you do for people what you did for that woman in your living room that night,

00:32:25.240 --> 00:32:27.920
connect with a beam of light and send them on their way?

00:32:27.920 --> 00:32:28.920
Is that what you were doing?

00:32:28.920 --> 00:32:29.920
Yes.

00:32:29.920 --> 00:32:34.400
That's right, pretty much that, just resolving what needed to be resolved.

00:32:34.400 --> 00:32:39.800
And you know it's kind of therapy for the dead really, you know that's what it was really,

00:32:39.800 --> 00:32:46.040
it was just moving on whatever the stock belief system was, usually forgiving oneself, that

00:32:46.040 --> 00:32:48.800
was generally the one that would cause most movement.

00:32:48.800 --> 00:32:55.360
But then you get a lot of malevolent spirits who would be throwing things across the room

00:32:55.360 --> 00:33:01.840
or I remember one case of a child who had been to various psychologists, various psychiatric

00:33:01.840 --> 00:33:06.480
ward, she was 12 years old and she would wake up in the morning black and blue and this was

00:33:06.480 --> 00:33:13.480
the presenting symptom and the family somehow found out about me and I went and sure, sure

00:33:13.480 --> 00:33:17.600
of course she was doing battle during the night, this is what was going on.

00:33:17.600 --> 00:33:19.480
Could she see them the way you can see them?

00:33:19.480 --> 00:33:25.080
Yeah, and everybody thought she was going psychotic, don't tell those stories to anybody, you know,

00:33:25.080 --> 00:33:29.760
I was like, oh bless her, of course it was happening, you know, and so then move on,

00:33:29.760 --> 00:33:35.760
the gang and sure she was fine and I stopped and that was the end of it, never record again.

00:33:35.760 --> 00:33:41.760
Did you ever find any that were too strong to purge from the premises?

00:33:41.760 --> 00:33:45.760
Yeah, what would happen is that they would just be laughing at me and they'd go for a

00:33:45.760 --> 00:33:48.760
while and then two weeks later they'd come back and I'd say, "Hey sorry I'm going to

00:33:48.760 --> 00:33:53.760
swing by and give you your money back because I can't, they won't take me for real."

00:33:53.760 --> 00:33:56.760
Was there a big demand for that in your area?

00:33:56.760 --> 00:34:00.120
Yeah, it was a full time job, yeah.

00:34:00.120 --> 00:34:02.160
How do you charge for your services as a ghostbuster?

00:34:02.160 --> 00:34:04.640
Yeah, it's funny, I don't know.

00:34:04.640 --> 00:34:07.160
By the ghost or by the…

00:34:07.160 --> 00:34:17.320
Little ghosts are $20 and big ghosts are $100?

00:34:17.320 --> 00:34:23.360
I don't know, it's usually a donation or I don't know, my time for something, I'm

00:34:23.360 --> 00:34:27.440
I'm not quite sure if there was any fixed rate, I've always been very looser on things like

00:34:27.440 --> 00:34:28.440
that anyway.

00:34:28.440 --> 00:34:31.520
It seems like the kind of thing that would have somehow caught the attention of the press

00:34:31.520 --> 00:34:37.120
and you would have gotten skeptical articles written in the local papers about you.

00:34:37.120 --> 00:34:38.960
Did that happen?

00:34:38.960 --> 00:34:44.320
It never happened and my father gave me advice about that.

00:34:44.320 --> 00:34:48.320
He said never, ever, ever let the media know about what you do.

00:34:48.320 --> 00:34:53.920
He said that when I told him, "Listen, my life is changing, I'm going to do this."

00:34:53.920 --> 00:34:57.600
You know, you have to tell your family at some point and then they all have a conference

00:34:57.600 --> 00:35:01.320
among themselves thinking, "Ok, she's lost her marbles, what are we going to do?"

00:35:01.320 --> 00:35:06.640
Well, it's not too far off, I mean the Catholic Church has exorcisms, it's sort of in the

00:35:06.640 --> 00:35:07.640
same ballpark.

00:35:07.640 --> 00:35:13.360
Yeah, it is, I don't know what they concluded out of it, I never bothered, that's their

00:35:13.360 --> 00:35:14.360
business.

00:35:14.360 --> 00:35:18.960
But yeah, he did give me that advice, don't go near the media at all, ever in your career,

00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:24.960
you know, so of course, he was right, he was right, it would certainly have been a distraction

00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:30.720
I think and it would have slowed things up I think.

00:35:30.720 --> 00:35:36.200
So from that, a year later into the ghostbusting, a year into the ghostbusting rather, I heard

00:35:36.200 --> 00:35:41.340
a voice when I was washing the dishes, and it's time to work on the living, stop working

00:35:41.340 --> 00:35:42.340
on the dead.

00:35:42.340 --> 00:35:48.980
like yeah, ok fine, not a clue what to do with this one, so show me what to do if that's

00:35:48.980 --> 00:35:50.620
what I'm to do.

00:35:50.620 --> 00:35:56.060
And so of course the same day, collecting my car from the local mechanic and he said

00:35:56.060 --> 00:36:00.580
Jack if you ever do on living people, how you help the dead, I'd love to volunteer.

00:36:00.580 --> 00:36:01.580
Oh no!

00:36:01.580 --> 00:36:04.100
And I thought yeah ok, ok fine.

00:36:04.100 --> 00:36:06.940
Two days later I came back and I said well were you serious?

00:36:06.940 --> 00:36:11.020
So he came to my sitting room floor, I thought ok I'll pull out an old mattress and a sleeping

00:36:11.020 --> 00:36:14.220
bag and throw him on top of that and he fell asleep.

00:36:14.220 --> 00:36:15.220
Perfect.

00:36:15.220 --> 00:36:16.220
Ok, he's asleep.

00:36:16.220 --> 00:36:22.100
Now I'll just sit here and think, ok, I've set it up, now voice from wherever you are,

00:36:22.100 --> 00:36:26.300
tell me what to do, and lo and behold his chakra system became visible and I went, oh

00:36:26.300 --> 00:36:30.260
my god, look at these colors, look at these wheels, oh my god, look at this mess, and

00:36:30.260 --> 00:36:36.100
my hand started to move and turn this and twist that and then explaining this to a friend

00:36:36.100 --> 00:36:39.660
of mine, she said, these are chakras, you can buy books about these, there's charts

00:36:39.660 --> 00:36:43.640
about these in my yoga class, and I went, "OK, tell me what to do."

00:36:43.640 --> 00:36:47.440
So I went and I had a psychic reading with somebody and she just said, "You get this

00:36:47.440 --> 00:36:49.720
book, you get this book, you do this course."

00:36:49.720 --> 00:36:54.280
She was fantastic and put me on the track of the new age, because I needed that language,

00:36:54.280 --> 00:36:57.480
I needed that world, because that's what was appearing in front of me, so I needed the

00:36:57.480 --> 00:36:58.480
skill to manage there.

00:36:58.480 --> 00:37:03.600
>>Rick: Let me just interject a question, was that Master Jose who came to you and changed

00:37:03.600 --> 00:37:06.880
your marching orders to start weekend living, was it him again?

00:37:06.880 --> 00:37:08.560
>>Kiran: Yeah, I think so.

00:37:08.560 --> 00:37:13.440
There was nothing else that responded to any kind of authority except to his authority

00:37:13.440 --> 00:37:14.440
I think.

00:37:14.440 --> 00:37:20.920
There was a sense of all the other stuff, "Ah, go away, go away, go away."

00:37:20.920 --> 00:37:25.040
There was something about his energy that was just unquestionable.

00:37:25.040 --> 00:37:26.040
It would be like, "Sure."

00:37:26.040 --> 00:37:31.820
Doubt would come in, there was a trust there.

00:37:31.820 --> 00:37:37.560
So from there into the New Age thing I ended up at a sweat lodge and met somebody at a sweat

00:37:37.560 --> 00:37:42.520
at large who told me about sanctidae me. So then I did sanctidae me intensively for a

00:37:42.520 --> 00:37:44.360
couple of months. What's that?

00:37:44.360 --> 00:37:51.360
Oh yeah, it's a plant from Brazil which is quite connected to a church. It's a medicine,

00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:55.360
a plant medicine. It's hallucinogenic for sure it is.

00:37:55.360 --> 00:37:59.360
Ok. Yeah. And there's quite a lot of that in Europe.

00:37:59.360 --> 00:38:04.160
It's legal now in Holland, that the church is actually recognized as a church. And this

00:38:04.160 --> 00:38:06.720
would be the sacrament, the sanctidae me would be a sacrament.

00:38:06.720 --> 00:38:22.160
I don't think it needs to be really because now it's a recognised church at least in Europe.

00:38:22.160 --> 00:38:27.360
And so from that somebody said, well if you're drawn to this, then what about Ayahuasca?

00:38:27.360 --> 00:38:29.480
I was like, well what's that?

00:38:29.480 --> 00:38:34.780
And so I got very interested in Ayahuasca, I got very interested in that and ended up

00:38:34.780 --> 00:38:38.420
spending some time in Peru, I know, just a few weeks, but an intensive camp.

00:38:38.420 --> 00:38:42.460
I went back to Bolivia several times and worked closely with a shaman there.

00:38:42.460 --> 00:38:46.940
>>Rick: So what did all this do for you, the sanctidaim in the Ayahuasca, what were your

00:38:46.940 --> 00:38:47.940
experiences with those?

00:38:47.940 --> 00:38:52.300
>>Kiran: Oh, they were wild of course, because I was so open and so available.

00:38:52.300 --> 00:38:56.660
>>Rick: And you were already seeing stuff, you must have started really seeing stuff.

00:38:56.660 --> 00:38:59.900
>>Kiran: It was wild, it was crazy, it was nuts.

00:38:59.900 --> 00:39:03.860
You know, in the feedback, like in the early morning, at dawn, when everybody's talking,

00:39:03.860 --> 00:39:08.100
I'd be like, "I'm going to have to taper down what I'm going to say here," and I was looking

00:39:08.100 --> 00:39:12.820
around because I just picked out one bit of a story because they ain't seen nothing, you

00:39:12.820 --> 00:39:13.820
know?

00:39:13.820 --> 00:39:17.740
>>Rick: Is it worth telling us some details or do you feel like now that would be just

00:39:17.740 --> 00:39:19.380
sort of a distraction?

00:39:19.380 --> 00:39:27.420
>>Kiran: Yeah, I think so because it's all simply just different aspects of mind.

00:39:27.420 --> 00:39:32.300
Any concept that can be thought manifests in some shape or form, that's the deal with the

00:39:32.300 --> 00:39:33.300
concept.

00:39:33.300 --> 00:39:40.460
It has the capacity to manifest in form or formless or in some dimension or some place

00:39:40.460 --> 00:39:47.900
and I suppose I was able to access those dimensions very easily on plant medicine.

00:39:47.900 --> 00:39:54.620
One thing, one story I'll tell, because it might be somebody's experience, I was taking

00:39:54.620 --> 00:40:00.740
San Pedro, and there's a specific way that you take this medicine, in that you're walking

00:40:00.740 --> 00:40:07.460
around a fire within a corralled area until about 4am in one direction, which is the unwind.

00:40:07.460 --> 00:40:12.180
And then the shaman stops the whole thing, a little ceremony happens and you walk the

00:40:12.180 --> 00:40:13.180
opposite way.

00:40:13.180 --> 00:40:18.100
I can't remember when it's clockwise and when it's anticlockwise, I don't remember.

00:40:18.100 --> 00:40:25.140
So in the winding in of it, the shedding of stuff as I was going out, and at 4am you start

00:40:25.140 --> 00:40:28.580
to pull back in until dawn comes.

00:40:28.580 --> 00:40:35.500
Since I was coming back in there was like a shudder and my vibration energetically would

00:40:35.500 --> 00:40:42.700
drop and it made me understand how energy works in some way and I would feel like you get

00:40:42.700 --> 00:40:45.940
the shake of somebody walking on your grave, you know that kind of a shudder and something

00:40:45.940 --> 00:40:52.060
would feel more dense and in that density it would be, and so you think this and so

00:40:52.060 --> 00:40:55.780
this is real and so this person is in your life because you're holding this belief and

00:40:55.780 --> 00:40:59.800
this isn't cleared and so there's this belief going on and so then this person is in your

00:40:59.800 --> 00:41:03.280
life and this is the scenario and that's why you're in the job you're in and that's why

00:41:03.280 --> 00:41:05.880
you're married to this person and I was like shit!

00:41:05.880 --> 00:41:12.660
So as each little belief system that Jack was holding at the time of how she thought the

00:41:12.660 --> 00:41:18.920
world worked, as each one was coming back in I could feel a density, a thickness, a yucky,

00:41:18.920 --> 00:41:25.760
shitty, crappy feeling kind of coming in at a cellular level and it's like something or

00:41:25.760 --> 00:41:32.560
or I don't know actually really what it was, was there some astral body coming in or some

00:41:32.560 --> 00:41:38.320
density which had blown out but the parts that hadn't been dissolved were coming back in because

00:41:38.320 --> 00:41:43.400
I wasn't ready or I couldn't integrate the shifts, maybe something like this.

00:41:43.400 --> 00:41:50.720
And so I could actually see, oh my god, this is just total density, the world as I see it

00:41:50.720 --> 00:41:53.920
is the world because I see it like this.

00:41:53.920 --> 00:41:59.440
And only because I see it, I've totally created everything that I believe, everything how

00:41:59.440 --> 00:42:02.000
it is, is not how it is at all.

00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:04.520
It's only how it is because I believe it's how it is.

00:42:04.520 --> 00:42:07.280
Oh my God, that's what I have to do.

00:42:07.280 --> 00:42:13.160
So it gave me a fantastic reorientation to see that this is totally my belief system,

00:42:13.160 --> 00:42:17.560
there's nothing else, this isn't about faith or going someplace, this isn't about anything

00:42:17.560 --> 00:42:22.800
except the belief system of believing that I'm Jack who thinks the world is like this.

00:42:22.800 --> 00:42:27.360
There's something inherently unstable about this, because it can be thrown off and it

00:42:27.360 --> 00:42:30.560
can come back in, so it's just a ball of conditioning.

00:42:30.560 --> 00:42:37.160
So somehow it became clear of the years of therapy that I did when I started at 19 to

00:42:37.160 --> 00:42:44.680
25, just going to a psychotherapist, that part clicked in, that's what the pull was

00:42:44.680 --> 00:42:46.280
to get rid of conditioning.

00:42:46.280 --> 00:42:50.880
That's why it feels so awful to believe your own story and why there's freedom when you

00:42:50.880 --> 00:42:55.680
shed something because energetically there's the loosening, there's a contraction which

00:42:55.680 --> 00:42:58.360
ceases.

00:42:58.360 --> 00:43:01.760
So that was a great seeing, that was probably the best one actually, it's the one that comes

00:43:01.760 --> 00:43:02.760
to mind now.

00:43:02.760 --> 00:43:07.240
>>Rick: That's very interesting, I wish everyone could have that experience.

00:43:07.240 --> 00:43:12.120
>>Kiran: Yeah, it was a great one.

00:43:12.120 --> 00:43:21.040
The other big whammy then was on sancto daime where everything was stripped and this serious

00:43:21.040 --> 00:43:31.740
vacuum sucked any concept that I was clinging to, excluding the idea of myself.

00:43:31.740 --> 00:43:37.440
And that awful void continued for hours and hours and hours, even after the ceremony, but

00:43:37.440 --> 00:43:42.240
the organizers of the ceremony were trying to bring me back and my body was, I mean totally

00:43:42.240 --> 00:43:46.720
I could look and of course the mental faculties were going on and I could talk but I had no

00:43:46.720 --> 00:43:48.560
power at all from the neck down, none.

00:43:48.560 --> 00:43:50.560
You mean you couldn't walk or anything?

00:43:50.560 --> 00:43:53.640
Nothing, nothing, I was lying on the floor, I was just limp.

00:43:53.640 --> 00:43:57.320
Was it really awful to be stripped of concepts or did you actually kind of like it in some

00:43:57.320 --> 00:43:58.320
way?

00:43:58.320 --> 00:44:00.160
No, it was horrific.

00:44:00.160 --> 00:44:07.100
There was nothing to stand on, no ground, there was just nothing and then even nothing was

00:44:07.100 --> 00:44:09.700
taken away, there wasn't even a comfort in nothing.

00:44:09.700 --> 00:44:14.300
You should know this one as a Catholic, "For the foxes have their holes and the birds have

00:44:14.300 --> 00:44:17.060
their nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head."

00:44:17.060 --> 00:44:18.060
That's exactly it.

00:44:18.060 --> 00:44:24.100
I think that's what he was talking about, but he had adjusted to it obviously.

00:44:24.100 --> 00:44:25.100
Yes, yes.

00:44:25.100 --> 00:44:30.660
You're dead right Rick, that's exactly what that was, that there's nothing stable in any

00:44:30.660 --> 00:44:31.660
of this.

00:44:31.660 --> 00:44:37.740
And I try, you know, even in the middle of that I was saying, "But Jesus Christ, you

00:44:37.740 --> 00:44:42.220
know, if you're a Christian you're like, Jesus let me grab something, somewhere that

00:44:42.220 --> 00:44:44.540
was valid for a while, maybe."

00:44:44.540 --> 00:44:50.420
And I clung to that and it was like, no, a concept, a belief system, another relative

00:44:50.420 --> 00:44:56.540
story, it was like, shit, shit, there was nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing.

00:44:56.540 --> 00:45:04.880
So from that what was deduced was that existence, existence itself is a myth.

00:45:04.880 --> 00:45:07.380
It's not that which exists, it's not real.

00:45:07.380 --> 00:45:11.380
>>Rick: You mean manifest existence or concrete existence?

00:45:11.380 --> 00:45:15.780
>>Kiran: Yes, yes, and that something can exist.

00:45:15.780 --> 00:45:19.300
It was prior to the something, this was about existence going.

00:45:19.300 --> 00:45:23.180
It wasn't that the things, in the beginning the things went, you know, Jesus or my life

00:45:23.180 --> 00:45:28.300
or whatever, the physical world, the cosmos, all the dimensions, I was jumping from anywhere

00:45:28.300 --> 00:45:29.780
for some rest.

00:45:29.780 --> 00:45:37.780
So when the things went, existence itself went and that's what the horror was.

00:45:37.780 --> 00:45:43.920
You will cling to survive in any capacity you will, you can, the basic instinct of any

00:45:43.920 --> 00:45:49.220
human individual is to cling to life, that instinct will kick in no matter how clear

00:45:49.220 --> 00:45:53.180
the understanding is that it's not real or that this is an illusion or only an appearance,

00:45:53.180 --> 00:45:58.860
some basic instinct will kick in to keep the form alive until it's done.

00:45:58.860 --> 00:45:59.860
And then it's done and that's fine.

00:45:59.860 --> 00:46:01.860
>>Rick: Were you still married at this point?

00:46:01.860 --> 00:46:03.660
Were you going through all this stuff and going to South America?

00:46:03.660 --> 00:46:06.220
But your husband was cool with it?

00:46:06.220 --> 00:46:14.300
>>Kiran: He said, "If I didn't know you for so long beforehand," because I met him when

00:46:14.300 --> 00:46:18.820
I was 17, he said, "If I didn't know you for so long I would be gone, girl, gone."

00:46:18.820 --> 00:46:25.820
because this is just too much, but actually I'm finding it interesting because it's you.

00:46:25.820 --> 00:46:30.300
So actually he was just, she worked in the post office, real stable, solid guy, played

00:46:30.300 --> 00:46:37.100
his golf, so he was very grounded which enables me to go off and do wacky stuff and come back

00:46:37.100 --> 00:46:38.540
to base and be okay.

00:46:38.540 --> 00:46:39.540
So he allowed the integration.

00:46:39.540 --> 00:46:43.980
Yeah, it must have been good for you to have an anchor.

00:46:43.980 --> 00:46:44.980
That was wonderful.

00:46:44.980 --> 00:46:50.340
Definitely, if there's no anchor there, gosh, it's tough.

00:46:50.340 --> 00:46:51.340
It's tough, yeah.

00:46:51.340 --> 00:46:55.460
It can be very tough for people who don't have any reference point for that integration

00:46:55.460 --> 00:47:00.700
while the human life is in transition, you know, until that phase finishes.

00:47:00.700 --> 00:47:04.980
I got pretty darn crazy myself before I got married, I mean just being on this totally

00:47:04.980 --> 00:47:09.980
dedicated to a spiritual path and boy, when I think back, I think, God, was I nuts, you

00:47:09.980 --> 00:47:19.640
It took many years to get more and more integrated and get rid of a lot of my idiosyncrasies,

00:47:19.640 --> 00:47:23.900
but I wasn't having any kind of experiences like you were having, but still meditating

00:47:23.900 --> 00:47:26.140
hours a day and so on.

00:47:26.140 --> 00:47:28.180
>>Karen: Yeah, yeah.

00:47:28.180 --> 00:47:32.340
And when you look back at that now Rick, what was that at play?

00:47:32.340 --> 00:47:40.820
I sort of feel like all is well and wisely put. I take the long view of things, the big

00:47:40.820 --> 00:47:47.460
time eyes, as I think somebody put it, and I just sort of feel like everything is unfolding

00:47:47.460 --> 00:47:55.860
just as it should. I started out really nuts, heavily into drugs as a teenager and dropped

00:47:55.860 --> 00:48:01.420
out of school and just a real mess. I don't want to turn this into a whole thing about

00:48:01.420 --> 00:48:06.540
me, but I learned to meditate when I was 18 and it really turned me around profoundly

00:48:06.540 --> 00:48:10.580
and dramatically, but there was many years of healing and restructuring and all that

00:48:10.580 --> 00:48:15.580
needed to take place, because I'd really gone at it as a younger person and had a rough

00:48:15.580 --> 00:48:17.380
family life and all that stuff.

00:48:17.380 --> 00:48:20.820
But anyway, let's get back to you.

00:48:20.820 --> 00:48:25.700
And here you are now, domestic again, touching into it from within a domestic scenario, you

00:48:25.700 --> 00:48:26.700
know.

00:48:26.700 --> 00:48:32.900
It's amazing, they're not in opposition to each other at all are they?

00:48:32.900 --> 00:48:33.900
No.

00:48:33.900 --> 00:48:34.900
Isn't it funny?

00:48:34.900 --> 00:48:35.900
Yeah.

00:48:35.900 --> 00:48:42.580
It's funny because I have a sister who seems to have this skill to kind of see where Jack

00:48:42.580 --> 00:48:48.380
is at, where the character is at, and she often says, "Jack, you know, someday, someday

00:48:48.380 --> 00:48:50.220
you will go into a relationship again."

00:48:50.220 --> 00:48:57.740
I'm like, I'm so far from that, the Jack character is so far from that.

00:48:57.740 --> 00:49:01.860
It's funny, you know, and she just says, "No, you will, you will, it'll just go around like

00:49:01.860 --> 00:49:02.860
that."

00:49:02.860 --> 00:49:06.300
So it's funny, you know, I wonder will that integration happen for Jack again, I don't

00:49:06.300 --> 00:49:07.300
know.

00:49:07.300 --> 00:49:08.300
Never say never.

00:49:08.300 --> 00:49:09.980
Yeah, never say never.

00:49:09.980 --> 00:49:13.620
I mean, your master Jose, he was married and had a kid, right?

00:49:13.620 --> 00:49:14.620
Yeah, he's still married.

00:49:14.620 --> 00:49:15.620
Yeah, he's still with her.

00:49:15.620 --> 00:49:16.620
He seems to be doing okay.

00:49:16.620 --> 00:49:17.620
You bet.

00:49:17.620 --> 00:49:26.020
>>Rick: It's fascinating that he was able to scope you out from Spain and find this woman

00:49:26.020 --> 00:49:30.260
in Ireland who's having this experience and appear at your bedside and have all this interaction,

00:49:30.260 --> 00:49:33.060
where must someone be at to be functioning in that way?

00:49:33.060 --> 00:49:35.500
>>Kiran: That's right, that's right.

00:49:35.500 --> 00:49:38.220
>>Rick: Does he speak English?

00:49:38.220 --> 00:49:39.220
Maybe I should interview him.

00:49:39.220 --> 00:49:40.220
>>Kiran: No, he doesn't speak English at all.

00:49:40.220 --> 00:49:47.260
And he's completely in retreat, he never physically appears.

00:49:47.260 --> 00:49:54.260
So where am I at?

00:49:54.260 --> 00:49:55.260
Where were we at?

00:49:55.260 --> 00:50:00.980
R: Ok, well you had jumped ahead six years to your visit with Master Jose in Spain and

00:50:00.980 --> 00:50:05.500
then I kind of backtracked you back to the Amazon and Peru and everything, we went through

00:50:05.500 --> 00:50:12.700
some of those hallucinogenic experiences, so we can take it up from wherever you like now.

00:50:12.700 --> 00:50:21.420
>>Karen Yeah, so okay, so from the connection with Master Jose, there was a few big wobblers

00:50:21.420 --> 00:50:26.840
I think really, with Ama, as in the hugging mother, and from those retreats from the Master

00:50:26.840 --> 00:50:27.840
Jose school.

00:50:27.840 --> 00:50:30.580
>>Rick Yeah, I want to hear about that because I'm

00:50:30.580 --> 00:50:35.740
very fond of Ama and my wife and I have been seeing her since about 11 years and we go

00:50:35.740 --> 00:50:38.500
2, 3, 4 times a year and spend time with her.

00:50:38.500 --> 00:50:41.960
And you also spent some time when you were camping in Spain, but maybe that's the Master

00:50:41.960 --> 00:50:42.960
Jose thing.

00:50:42.960 --> 00:50:46.060
Yes, that was the Master Jose thing.

00:50:46.060 --> 00:50:51.040
So maybe we should go on to Amrita Puri, I don't know.

00:50:51.040 --> 00:50:58.600
The first time with Emma, she was in Ireland, it was her very first trip in Ireland, and

00:50:58.600 --> 00:51:03.000
after the, just before the hug, when I was coming up to the hug I thought, I'm going

00:51:03.000 --> 00:51:06.400
to puke, I'm going to puke, what am I going to do, I'm queuing up here and I'm going to

00:51:06.400 --> 00:51:08.740
vomit on this lady, you know.

00:51:08.740 --> 00:51:16.420
And of course I didn't, because I felt like, oh this is an energetic, then I twigged, this

00:51:16.420 --> 00:51:20.860
isn't food, I didn't eat, it's been hours I've been sitting here, ok fine, this is energetic,

00:51:20.860 --> 00:51:22.780
calm down Jack, calm down.

00:51:22.780 --> 00:51:28.500
And the shift that happened after the hug, it's like the energetic movement happened

00:51:28.500 --> 00:51:34.940
and I spent an hour and a half in some kind of trance, whereby I felt I was communicating

00:51:34.940 --> 00:51:40.060
with her, I was sitting down, my body was shaking because there was a friend of mine holding

00:51:40.060 --> 00:51:44.580
my jacket as I went up, so she was just sitting there watching me doing this shaking thing

00:51:44.580 --> 00:51:49.260
for an hour and a half, and at that time she told me, "You will have to leave your husband,

00:51:49.260 --> 00:51:53.540
your marriage is going to end, you will" and I was like, "You get a grip, you're just playing

00:51:53.540 --> 00:51:54.540
with me here."

00:51:54.540 --> 00:51:56.220
>>Rick: Self-admittedly she said that.

00:51:56.220 --> 00:51:59.340
>>Kiran: Yeah, sure.

00:51:59.340 --> 00:52:06.740
So she told me some home truths like this, which came to pass.

00:52:06.740 --> 00:52:13.500
I shut everything down at one point, now let me think, maybe a year after Amma.

00:52:13.500 --> 00:52:16.180
What do you mean you shut everything down?

00:52:16.180 --> 00:52:24.020
Yeah, I knew, ok, I was working as a healer at this point, so as a healer, maybe I was

00:52:24.020 --> 00:52:28.620
about 36, ok so the Kainikin and Kaspar was when I was 30, ok?

00:52:28.620 --> 00:52:33.580
So then there was about six years until I hit the Master Jose thing, where I had done the

00:52:33.580 --> 00:52:37.140
energy work, the New Age, the Ayahuasca, all the shamanic stuff.

00:52:37.140 --> 00:52:43.540
I hit the Master Jose thing, started cleaning up everything because it was more meditation,

00:52:43.540 --> 00:52:46.740
more chanting, more contemplative.

00:52:46.740 --> 00:52:53.900
And so from those two years with Master Jose, I felt that whatever I'm doing, giving workshops

00:52:53.900 --> 00:52:59.060
on chakra healing, on chanting, running weekend residentials, on healing the family tree,

00:52:59.060 --> 00:53:00.960
I got involved in all that stuff.

00:53:00.960 --> 00:53:08.860
And so, it has its place like everything, it just came clear that this is going nowhere,

00:53:08.860 --> 00:53:13.820
this is a service, fine, and everything in my life at that point was a service, because

00:53:13.820 --> 00:53:20.000
that was all that made sense, and that really all I'm doing is gathering information and

00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:24.360
sharing information and this is just engaging my mind all the time, I'm trying to balance

00:53:24.360 --> 00:53:30.420
it out with meditation and with observation and there's something amiss here, I keep accumulating

00:53:30.420 --> 00:53:36.420
more information and engaging my mind in a way that I know is not helping, I've got to

00:53:36.420 --> 00:53:38.220
in some way leave all of this.

00:53:38.220 --> 00:53:43.860
And so I started doing my work but without the third eye capacity, so I thought ok, shut

00:53:43.860 --> 00:53:48.980
down this extra information and just be normal, just be normal and see if that churns up more

00:53:48.980 --> 00:53:49.980
crap.

00:53:49.980 --> 00:53:54.860
And so I did and I was able to like, no, only the physical realm, only the physical realm

00:53:54.860 --> 00:53:57.340
and that's possible to do.

00:53:57.340 --> 00:54:02.220
And so that was too much also, it was like, "Ok Jack, but I want more silence, I need

00:54:02.220 --> 00:54:06.060
to go away, where am I going to go, what am I going to do?"

00:54:06.060 --> 00:54:08.820
And I thought, ok, I go to where there's more light.

00:54:08.820 --> 00:54:09.820
Now what's light?

00:54:09.820 --> 00:54:13.940
I thought, ok, the sun is light, after that, the rest of it is just ideas.

00:54:13.940 --> 00:54:17.520
The sun is light, ok, I'll trust that, we're down to the physical realm again.

00:54:17.520 --> 00:54:23.480
So I put my tent on my back and I went to a campsite in the south of Spain for 3 months

00:54:23.480 --> 00:54:30.720
and my husband came out once for a week and I would phone him every now and then or something

00:54:30.720 --> 00:54:36.240
and when I came back to Ireland in the airport and he collected me I was like, it's gone,

00:54:36.240 --> 00:54:41.560
it's gone, something is finished here, I can't be his wife anymore, something is broken.

00:54:41.560 --> 00:54:48.600
So then I knew that this is very drastic here, I'm actually going to have to lose everything,

00:54:48.600 --> 00:54:51.800
I can't play with this one at all.

00:54:51.800 --> 00:54:55.520
So we talked about it and he said, "Ok, it will finish when it will finish."

00:54:55.520 --> 00:55:00.840
That was June and by September it was, "I actually can't be engaged with you sexually

00:55:00.840 --> 00:55:01.840
anymore."

00:55:01.840 --> 00:55:04.840
And he said, "Well now it's finished, now it's done."

00:55:04.840 --> 00:55:13.240
And that was the end of it, you know.

00:55:13.240 --> 00:55:14.240
So I went to Spain.

00:55:14.240 --> 00:55:18.600
R: Although you've got to give him credit for having been very patient for a long time.

00:55:18.600 --> 00:55:21.400
J: I should have found him a sweetheart.

00:55:21.400 --> 00:55:28.080
And we're great mates, you know, his girlfriend is lending me her car next week.

00:55:28.080 --> 00:55:31.720
It's lovely, it's lovely, we've just always been great mates, it's just that we couldn't

00:55:31.720 --> 00:55:33.240
do the marriage thing anymore.

00:55:33.240 --> 00:55:37.080
He now says, "Jack, the best thing you ever did for me was leave me, the best thing you

00:55:37.080 --> 00:55:39.240
ever did, because it threw me upside down."

00:55:39.240 --> 00:55:44.400
And so of course everything works out fine, you just have to ride through the uncertainties,

00:55:44.400 --> 00:55:47.400
you know.

00:55:47.400 --> 00:55:56.200
From that, yes, I moved to Tenerife and I met somebody who said, "I want to go to India

00:55:56.200 --> 00:55:58.880
to study yoga and will you come with me?"

00:55:58.880 --> 00:56:05.720
like okay, okay, let's see what yoga is about, went to this yoga center which was at the back

00:56:05.720 --> 00:56:13.160
of Arunachala and after three days this crack about saluting the sun and my hands up and

00:56:13.160 --> 00:56:21.640
my legs down and crabs and dogs and cats and forget it, I am not a yogic, I'm quitting,

00:56:21.640 --> 00:56:24.440
and so it's like okay I'm going around to the other side of the mountain and I'll wait

00:56:24.440 --> 00:56:28.360
in the local village and see you in three weeks time when the course is over and over

00:56:28.360 --> 00:56:35.360
at the other side of the village, it was Thiruvanamalai, and I was like, Jesus, where was I, what was

00:56:35.360 --> 00:56:42.360
I messing around with for so long, they're putting words on what I know, they're putting

00:56:42.360 --> 00:56:47.240
words on that which I thought had no words, we can point towards that which is beyond

00:56:47.240 --> 00:56:54.240
mind, the relief Rick, it was wild, just to like, Jesus, people talk about it, oh my God,

00:56:54.440 --> 00:56:57.360
the word non-dual for the first time.

00:56:57.360 --> 00:57:02.520
I suppose this probably couldn't have happened now because nowadays there's non-dual people

00:57:02.520 --> 00:57:07.000
on every street corner talking about it.

00:57:07.000 --> 00:57:15.600
And YouTube wasn't there, it just wasn't available.

00:57:15.600 --> 00:57:24.560
So from there I spent a lot of time on my own, I spent a lot of time just doing self inquiry,

00:57:24.560 --> 00:57:30.400
a few years really, until Richard Miller knocked on my door and that was the end of Jack's

00:57:30.400 --> 00:57:31.400
solitude.

00:57:31.400 --> 00:57:34.000
Good old Richard Miller, he gets around.

00:57:34.000 --> 00:57:38.560
He sure does.

00:57:38.560 --> 00:57:41.880
And then at what point did you go to Amritapuri?

00:57:41.880 --> 00:57:48.880
>>K: Yeah, to just get a break from Tiruvannamalai, when the season would be there in January,

00:57:48.880 --> 00:57:53.440
February and Amma is doing her Indian tour, she's hanging out in the ashram, it's like

00:57:53.440 --> 00:57:57.680
"Okay, too many Westerners here, it's too busy, it's too much of a party scene" and

00:57:57.680 --> 00:58:00.480
I was going in too much at that point, I couldn't engage.

00:58:00.480 --> 00:58:05.880
So yeah, get a train across to Amrita Puri and stay for a week or two weeks or something.

00:58:05.880 --> 00:58:12.200
>>Rick: You said something on your biography about really being incapacitated there and

00:58:12.200 --> 00:58:17.520
having to be fed or just sort of being completely out of it for six days, what was that all about?

00:58:17.520 --> 00:58:25.440
>>Kiran: Yeah, there was a mantra which appeared, as they often do, you know, just a sentence

00:58:25.440 --> 00:58:30.560
comes which obviously you've heard somewhere or something, and it was "I am the supreme

00:58:30.560 --> 00:58:35.120
consciousness, I am the supreme consciousness" and it was running, running, running, running,

00:58:35.120 --> 00:58:41.400
as things were at that point because my mind was very much going to a single point.

00:58:41.400 --> 00:58:49.000
And I remember looking out the window of the little rooms in Amrita Puri, looking out the

00:58:49.000 --> 00:58:56.720
window way down to the queue, right out from the temple of hundreds and hundreds of people,

00:58:56.720 --> 00:59:02.800
and seeing so clearly that, oh my gosh, look, that really requires a lot of imagination

00:59:02.800 --> 00:59:08.280
to imagine that we are all people and that they are individuals doing separate things

00:59:08.280 --> 00:59:12.000
and that they have lives and that she is the mother of that child.

00:59:12.000 --> 00:59:18.400
What a load of make-believe ideas placed on top of just balls of energy which we call bodies

00:59:18.400 --> 00:59:24.360
which are moving completely just as the cosmos is moving, it's just particles moving and

00:59:24.360 --> 00:59:27.000
somehow we believe we are separate from this?

00:59:27.000 --> 00:59:32.480
What a crazy idea, but that idea is just part of the movement too.

00:59:32.480 --> 00:59:42.880
And so some seeing of there is no individuality at all, concepts are never the truth, they're

00:59:42.880 --> 00:59:49.680
not real, they can be taken as real but they don't represent capital and reality.

00:59:49.680 --> 00:59:58.000
And so in the seeing of that I seemed to not be there and functioning was happening because

00:59:58.000 --> 01:00:01.620
I was thankfully with somebody who could say, "Come on Jack, I need to eat" and pull me off

01:00:01.620 --> 01:00:08.260
the floor and I would just eat and go back to the room and lie down again and then it

01:00:08.260 --> 01:00:19.420
was six days later and it was like, okay, what's appearing now and how come this is sort of

01:00:19.420 --> 01:00:21.140
solid again and what's going on?

01:00:21.140 --> 01:00:28.060
But the thought that brought me back was sex, the idea of sex, because the partner I was

01:00:28.060 --> 01:00:34.100
with was having a shower and I was just lying there and I could see him having a shower

01:00:34.100 --> 01:00:39.100
and thinking, "Why does this body imagine it connects with that body in a pleasurable

01:00:39.100 --> 01:00:40.100
way?

01:00:40.100 --> 01:00:46.820
What on earth could imagine that there is a subject of pleasure in this?"

01:00:46.820 --> 01:00:49.340
And somehow it's like, "Oh my God, yeah!

01:00:49.340 --> 01:00:53.940
Oh now I can see how that works, oh that's amazing and boom!"

01:00:53.940 --> 01:00:56.580
There was Jack again!

01:00:56.580 --> 01:01:02.960
much less, it was just seeing that, oh what was left then was that the sense of I am an

01:01:02.960 --> 01:01:10.540
individual is only alive when there is desire running, it only kicked in and it wasn't that,

01:01:10.540 --> 01:01:14.540
it was clear that there isn't an I here all the time that tunes in with self image or

01:01:14.540 --> 01:01:21.580
tunes in with desire, not at all, the I is part of that thought, it's like it's a quality

01:01:21.580 --> 01:01:24.220
attached to a particular thought at any time.

01:01:24.220 --> 01:01:31.920
Some thoughts have an "I" sense about them and the wonderful magic of that is that it

01:01:31.920 --> 01:01:35.620
has the capacity to make you believe you're real and you're separate from the thought

01:01:35.620 --> 01:01:36.620
that you're having.

01:01:36.620 --> 01:01:37.620
It's like, what a joke!

01:01:37.620 --> 01:01:47.980
>>Rick: So would it be fair to say that it has its function when it's needed but that

01:01:47.980 --> 01:01:55.940
it gets sort of overindulged in ordinarily and becomes something which really should just

01:01:55.940 --> 01:02:01.460
be sort of an occasional functional useful thing becomes the predominant permanent situation.

01:02:01.460 --> 01:02:07.900
>>Kiran: It does, it does, in order to make having a human life possible.

01:02:07.900 --> 01:02:13.820
So it's totally wonderful the fact that it concretizes in some way.

01:02:13.820 --> 01:02:19.020
It's amazing that it actually is believable and it's 100% believable, especially when

01:02:19.020 --> 01:02:20.020
they're suffering.

01:02:20.020 --> 01:02:23.620
It's more believable when they're suffering, because that density is there.

01:02:23.620 --> 01:02:24.620
>>Rick: Very dense, yeah.

01:02:24.620 --> 01:02:31.380
I mean if we held our hand over a candle flame or something like that, it would concretize

01:02:31.380 --> 01:02:32.820
very quickly.

01:02:32.820 --> 01:02:38.980
Or if I held mine over a candle flame and you didn't, the pain would be located here,

01:02:38.980 --> 01:02:39.980
not there.

01:02:39.980 --> 01:02:46.920
I'd be the one who, there'd be a sense of, get that arm away and you wouldn't have that

01:02:46.920 --> 01:02:51.100
sense so much, because this is my kind of concrete manifestation.

01:02:51.100 --> 01:02:53.600
>>K: That's right, that's right.

01:02:53.600 --> 01:02:58.740
And there are layers to it, because the instinct for the body to protect itself, that's always

01:02:58.740 --> 01:03:08.220
there of course, and for some it's overlaid with a fear of, I'm going to die, or I'm vulnerable,

01:03:08.220 --> 01:03:15.420
or don't remind me that I'm mortal, and even with those gone, there is a basic instinct

01:03:15.420 --> 01:03:16.940
that moves to protect itself.

01:03:16.940 --> 01:03:21.660
>>Rick: Yeah, which anyone, Ramana Maharshi had, anybody.

01:03:21.660 --> 01:03:23.220
>>Kiran: Sure, sure.

01:03:23.220 --> 01:03:27.660
>>Rick: I heard you talking about this in one of your satsangs, how you were saying that

01:03:27.660 --> 01:03:33.860
there's always going to be some remnant of I or ego or sense of self as long as you're

01:03:33.860 --> 01:03:35.620
alive.

01:03:35.620 --> 01:03:40.160
I'm not a Sanskrit scholar by any stretch, but I happen to know of one phrase which is

01:03:40.160 --> 01:03:44.980
called "leisha vidya" in Sanskrit, and what it means is "faint remains of ignorance."

01:03:44.980 --> 01:03:50.420
And the idea is that as long as you're a functioning human being, there has got to be some leisha

01:03:50.420 --> 01:03:56.260
vidya in order for you to function, otherwise you couldn't distinguish the wall from the

01:03:56.260 --> 01:03:59.460
door or know to put food in your mouth.

01:03:59.460 --> 01:04:02.860
>>Kiran That's right, that's right, yeah.

01:04:02.860 --> 01:04:08.580
And I guess it's the working mind, because the thinking mind is the part that achieves

01:04:08.580 --> 01:04:13.260
liberation, it's a mental phenomenon, liberation anyway.

01:04:13.260 --> 01:04:19.180
So that seeing of the illusion as the illusion is just for the thinking capacity of mind.

01:04:19.180 --> 01:04:27.820
So the working mind is there but yet something enables a movie to appear as a movie.

01:04:27.820 --> 01:04:28.820
The appearance still appears.

01:04:28.820 --> 01:04:31.820
It's an appearance, but it appears to appear, still.

01:04:31.820 --> 01:04:38.740
R: Yeah, and there's some kind of mutuality in it too, because if you and I were sitting

01:04:38.740 --> 01:04:42.940
in the same room, we'd both see the same table and the same chair and the same wall

01:04:42.940 --> 01:04:48.460
and everything else, and if one of us were to die, that table, chair and wall, the other

01:04:48.460 --> 01:04:50.020
one would still see those things.

01:04:50.020 --> 01:04:55.480
So it's not like we totally create our own individual reality afresh and uniquely, each

01:04:55.480 --> 01:04:59.920
one of us, there's some kind of a universal thing and we all just sort of tune into it

01:04:59.920 --> 01:05:04.280
to whatever extent we do, or however we perceive it.

01:05:04.280 --> 01:05:10.360
>>Karen: Yes, and then at satsang you find somebody an hour into it saying, "Every question

01:05:10.360 --> 01:05:13.760
that was asked could have been mine."

01:05:13.760 --> 01:05:18.760
So at the subtle layer also there's such a commonality because it's just one ball of

01:05:18.760 --> 01:05:22.920
energy, it just keeps moving around and so there isn't a whole lot that's subjective

01:05:22.920 --> 01:05:28.400
actually, it depends on how wide a lens you want to look through.

01:05:28.400 --> 01:05:34.680
>>Rick: So as far as the Jack story is concerned, we left you kind of lying on the floor in

01:05:34.680 --> 01:05:43.000
Amrita Puri, did you ever reach a point where you felt like, "Okay, this is the final stroke

01:05:43.000 --> 01:05:48.720
and is that farther along in your telling here?"

01:05:48.720 --> 01:05:58.880
I don't know because I have no plan.

01:05:58.880 --> 01:06:05.080
Okay I remember walking around, I used to have a practice of walking meditation, of walking

01:06:05.080 --> 01:06:10.760
around the Samadhi Shrine of Ramana Maharshi and I remember walking around that, I think

01:06:10.760 --> 01:06:17.760
it was like in August or something, there was nobody there, and the sentence, the show

01:06:17.760 --> 01:06:21.960
The show is over, the show is over, and I often use that now actually, the show is over, the

01:06:21.960 --> 01:06:29.920
show is over, the show is over, and something just went, what makes an I appear?

01:06:29.920 --> 01:06:30.920
What is it?

01:06:30.920 --> 01:06:37.280
Desire, ok, ok, ok, I think it was desire, let's see, let's see if desire, where's desire,

01:06:37.280 --> 01:06:39.480
what's desire?

01:06:39.480 --> 01:06:43.600
And after that sentence, that repeated sentence, because it was running for ages before it

01:06:43.600 --> 01:06:50.160
was heard and it was like, "Oh gosh, I seem to have lost something."

01:06:50.160 --> 01:06:56.720
Within a few days later, in the shower, again in Teru, I'm doing this because you throw

01:06:56.720 --> 01:07:03.000
jugs of water over yourself, in the shower, and it was like, "Oh, my mind is breaking,

01:07:03.000 --> 01:07:07.360
my mind is breaking," and there was this sense of an iceberg breaking into particles and

01:07:07.360 --> 01:07:08.360
particles flowing away.

01:07:08.360 --> 01:07:13.960
I was like, I'm losing my marbles here, ok, ok, fine, psychiatric hospital in India, so

01:07:13.960 --> 01:07:14.960
be it, so be it.

01:07:14.960 --> 01:07:18.040
>>Rick: Oh, you must have been used to losing your marbles by that time.

01:07:18.040 --> 01:07:21.360
>>Kiran: Yeah, totally, it was like, ok, what's next?

01:07:21.360 --> 01:07:26.600
Yeah, totally, well off the Richter scale at this point.

01:07:26.600 --> 01:07:36.920
So those two experiences were, in hindsight now, they felt like that some wiring, some

01:07:36.920 --> 01:07:43.360
essential wiring that's necessary to make the I be believed.

01:07:43.360 --> 01:07:53.640
That wiring was burning out, that the I never, ah God, it's just not authentic, there's a

01:07:53.640 --> 01:08:00.840
gap between an I story and what is believed.

01:08:00.840 --> 01:08:02.160
How can anything be believed?

01:08:02.160 --> 01:08:09.160
idea of believing anything, it's just nuts, nothing can be believed, who could it be believed

01:08:09.160 --> 01:08:16.480
by? Believing is just part of a ball of energy that moves through consciousness, why would

01:08:16.480 --> 01:08:24.480
it be owned or believed? Some link broke in what gives an authenticity to the manifested

01:08:26.600 --> 01:08:27.600
world.

01:08:27.600 --> 01:08:32.840
So in hindsight I would have to say it was those two incidences that happened quite close

01:08:32.840 --> 01:08:34.840
to each other in linear time.

01:08:34.840 --> 01:08:45.240
R: It's interesting how most spiritual seekers, there's definitely a personal motivation

01:08:45.240 --> 01:08:49.160
it seems that they start out with where they kind of have some realizations that there's

01:08:49.160 --> 01:08:50.920
something more and they think, "I've got to get that."

01:08:50.920 --> 01:08:55.880
And so they start doing practices and reading books and going to seminars and there's this

01:08:55.880 --> 01:09:01.560
a very purposeful thing. In your case, you were just going along, living your life, and

01:09:01.560 --> 01:09:05.080
it's like a big hook came in and grabbed you by the neck and said, "Here's what we've

01:09:05.080 --> 01:09:10.920
got planned for you." Obviously, you've gone and pursued all sorts of things over

01:09:10.920 --> 01:09:19.400
the years, but it's more like you just stumbled onto a fast-moving train and had not much

01:09:19.400 --> 01:09:25.840
choice in the matter. You were destined for this thing and you were almost chosen. I'm

01:09:25.840 --> 01:09:31.280
I mean, like in the Master Jose incident, he just kind of came along and boom.

01:09:31.280 --> 01:09:35.840
So it's fascinating, it does happen to some people that way.

01:09:35.840 --> 01:09:36.840
Not everyone.

01:09:36.840 --> 01:09:40.840
>>Kiran: No, not everyone, and both must exist, you know, that you go after it or that it

01:09:40.840 --> 01:09:41.840
comes after you.

01:09:41.840 --> 01:09:48.680
I was playing catch up, I was just constantly trying to make sense of something because

01:09:48.680 --> 01:09:50.880
the next thing was already on top of me.

01:09:50.880 --> 01:09:53.840
>>Rick: Some people might speculate that…

01:09:53.840 --> 01:10:00.200
I often remember thinking, maybe I'll ask to slow it down, maybe I'll ask to slow it down,

01:10:00.200 --> 01:10:04.640
and I did once, because I thought about it so much I can remember, I asked once, it has

01:10:04.640 --> 01:10:10.720
to slow down, and about three days later I thought, no, no, actually I'm ok now again,

01:10:10.720 --> 01:10:12.000
I'm ok now again, off it goes.

01:10:12.000 --> 01:10:13.480
Who do you think you're asking?

01:10:13.480 --> 01:10:17.560
Ah, sure, good question, my mind I suppose, what else?

01:10:17.560 --> 01:10:22.360
Either that or some bigger intelligence, you know, some higher, I mean…

01:10:22.360 --> 01:10:24.960
>>Karen: Yeah, maybe so, who knows?

01:10:24.960 --> 01:10:26.960
I don't know, it just went out there.

01:10:26.960 --> 01:10:33.360
>>Rick: Obviously, you look at the universe, it's vast and fascinating and complex and

01:10:33.360 --> 01:10:38.800
you and I couldn't create a housefly if we needed to, there's just so much intelligence

01:10:38.800 --> 01:10:40.480
inherent in everything.

01:10:40.480 --> 01:10:42.880
So to me it always seems like there's…

01:10:42.880 --> 01:10:46.640
I mean I start my day every day by looking at some astronomy pictures of galaxies and

01:10:46.640 --> 01:10:47.640
stuff like that.

01:10:47.640 --> 01:10:54.600
Rick - It seems like there's some much bigger intelligence running the show and we fathom

01:10:54.600 --> 01:10:59.480
that to whatever extent we can and essentially we are that but as human beings, individual

01:10:59.480 --> 01:11:05.200
human beings, we don't have that kind of power.

01:11:05.200 --> 01:11:11.000
But it seems like there is a bigger power and perhaps deputies and sub-deputies and

01:11:11.000 --> 01:11:17.860
so on, who were all involved in running this thing and you got tagged.

01:11:17.860 --> 01:11:21.280
Some people might speculate that you had done a lot of spiritual work in previous lives

01:11:21.280 --> 01:11:25.200
or something and therefore you were ready for this, who knows?

01:11:25.200 --> 01:11:27.520
>>Karen: Who knows, who knows?

01:11:27.520 --> 01:11:33.840
But I suppose the deputies and the sub-deputies and the magnificence of galaxies, we are all

01:11:33.840 --> 01:11:34.840
of it.

01:11:34.840 --> 01:11:39.680
We are all of it, mind just says we are this body so therefore there are these other things

01:11:39.680 --> 01:11:44.960
that can be labeled, but we are all of it, we cannot not be all of it.

01:11:44.960 --> 01:11:47.120
We are all of it.

01:11:47.120 --> 01:11:52.400
Somebody posted a question on my blog the other day and I wrote a little answer, and this

01:11:52.400 --> 01:11:54.480
is going to shift gears for us here.

01:11:54.480 --> 01:11:58.200
I want to read it to you, it'll just take a minute, and then see what your response is

01:11:58.200 --> 01:11:59.200
to it.

01:11:59.200 --> 01:12:04.880
He said, "Although I am impressed with the abilities of the many non-duality teachers

01:12:04.880 --> 01:12:10.120
and more every day, but where are they coming from, to describe and point to nonduality

01:12:10.120 --> 01:12:16.800
in all the ways that they do, I have not seen anyone wake up as a result of experiencing

01:12:16.800 --> 01:12:17.800
their teachings.

01:12:17.800 --> 01:12:18.920
Have you?

01:12:18.920 --> 01:12:24.520
And I wrote, "I have, and I believe it happens, but I think it only happens when one is ready

01:12:24.520 --> 01:12:25.520
to awaken.

01:12:25.520 --> 01:12:29.320
It doesn't help people climbing a mountain to hear a man standing on the mountaintop

01:12:29.320 --> 01:12:31.520
describe his surroundings.

01:12:31.520 --> 01:12:36.360
If such a description is offered, it should be to inspire people to continue climbing.

01:12:36.360 --> 01:12:39.600
Or it may be that some people have reached the summit, but climbing has become such a

01:12:39.600 --> 01:12:42.320
habit that they think they need to keep doing it.

01:12:42.320 --> 01:12:46.920
For them, the assurance that this is it can legitimately end the search.

01:12:46.920 --> 01:12:50.540
But most people are still well down the mountain, and they need instructions relevant to where

01:12:50.540 --> 01:12:51.540
they are.

01:12:51.540 --> 01:12:56.480
The man at the top may forget his own climb and say, "There is no climb, only this view

01:12:56.480 --> 01:12:57.680
from the top."

01:12:57.680 --> 01:13:01.880
The climbers may believe him and give up the climb, believing they have already reached

01:13:01.880 --> 01:13:02.880
the summit.

01:13:02.880 --> 01:13:07.480
They may even start advising fellow climbers that they too have arrived.

01:13:07.480 --> 01:13:11.880
A real teacher recognizes that different people need instructions and practices relevant to

01:13:11.880 --> 01:13:13.960
their level of experience.

01:13:13.960 --> 01:13:16.120
One size does not fit all.

01:13:16.120 --> 01:13:20.680
Traditionally, Advaita was intended to provide the final stroke of knowledge to complete

01:13:20.680 --> 01:13:24.480
the enlightenment of people who had traversed many developmental stages.

01:13:24.480 --> 01:13:28.540
It was not intended as a general instruction for spiritual seekers.

01:13:28.540 --> 01:13:32.700
In the hands of beginners and intermediates it can become a channel for fundamentalist

01:13:32.700 --> 01:13:33.700
mentality.

01:13:33.700 --> 01:13:38.200
I also believe, and often mention during these interviews, that there are many stages of

01:13:38.200 --> 01:13:39.200
awakening.

01:13:39.200 --> 01:13:42.740
Some of these can be very profound and are easily misinterpreted as final.

01:13:42.740 --> 01:13:46.100
So, what do you think about all that?

01:13:46.100 --> 01:13:52.620
>>Kiran: Yeah, yeah, I go with, I think, pretty much all of it.

01:13:52.620 --> 01:13:58.220
Yeah, absolutely.

01:13:58.220 --> 01:14:00.780
All the styles are out there.

01:14:00.780 --> 01:14:04.140
There are non-Jewish speakers who sit at the top and say, "There's only the view from the

01:14:04.140 --> 01:14:06.620
top of the mountain and nothing else is real."

01:14:06.620 --> 01:14:13.500
And then there's, I don't know, I suppose Jack's style is like putting a torch to see

01:14:13.500 --> 01:14:18.060
if I can shine a bit of light at the rock in front of somebody's toe and say, "Listen,

01:14:18.060 --> 01:14:21.500
would you just watch this one coming up or go to the right of it or go to the left of

01:14:21.500 --> 01:14:29.060
or time on top of it, because that's what was done for Jack, you know, there was always

01:14:29.060 --> 01:14:33.900
that sense of, ok if I just know the next step and something was always showing me the

01:14:33.900 --> 01:14:39.580
next step, no matter how wacky it was, I always took it and then from there the next step

01:14:39.580 --> 01:14:43.540
would come and of course I fell on my ass loads of times, of course, I'm sure it still

01:14:43.540 --> 01:14:48.020
happens, which is a lot, that's just life.

01:14:48.020 --> 01:14:57.300
So yes, there is a lot of speaking from the top of the mountain which is completely a waste

01:14:57.300 --> 01:15:01.100
of time for those who are at the bottom of the mountain.

01:15:01.100 --> 01:15:08.100
There has to be a maturity to be able to hear words which come from that which is beyond,

01:15:08.100 --> 01:15:12.740
without story, if those words are story.

01:15:12.740 --> 01:15:18.280
Intellectually I think a person can be still fairly low on the mountain and sort of grok

01:15:18.280 --> 01:15:21.480
what somebody means when they speak from the top of their head.

01:15:21.480 --> 01:15:24.640
They say, "Yeah, intuitively I understand what you're saying.

01:15:24.640 --> 01:15:25.640
Nothing ever happened.

01:15:25.640 --> 01:15:26.640
There's only one of us."

01:15:26.640 --> 01:15:29.040
There's this and so on and so forth.

01:15:29.040 --> 01:15:36.240
I think what seems to happen too often is that people mistake that intellectual insight

01:15:36.240 --> 01:15:39.560
as the actual experience of being on top of the mountain.

01:15:39.560 --> 01:15:41.400
Then they think, "I'm done."

01:15:41.400 --> 01:15:45.520
All this talk of progress and all these gurus and all this stuff is a lot of bunk because

01:15:45.520 --> 01:15:47.520
I've got this idea, I'm finished.

01:15:47.520 --> 01:15:50.000
I think it's just a concept.

01:15:50.000 --> 01:15:52.120
Yeah, they did, it's just a concept.

01:15:52.120 --> 01:15:59.720
And the word fundamentalist that I used here, not only in Neo-Advaita but in Christianity

01:15:59.720 --> 01:16:07.320
or Islam or whatever, there's a certain kind of mentality that loves to latch on to a concept

01:16:07.320 --> 01:16:15.160
of an absolute reality and try to make it absolute but it's really only a concept.

01:16:15.160 --> 01:16:20.000
Because it's really only a relative perspective, which is all it can be from that level of

01:16:20.000 --> 01:16:23.880
experience, it ends up clashing with every other relative perspective.

01:16:23.880 --> 01:16:29.320
Then we fight wars over our concepts and we kill each other, we fly airplanes into buildings

01:16:29.320 --> 01:16:30.320
and so on.

01:16:30.320 --> 01:16:31.320
Yes, apparently we do.

01:16:31.320 --> 01:16:40.420
Yes, I mean look what happened to you in Catholic Girls School, they were feeding you a load

01:16:40.420 --> 01:16:45.080
of concepts and presenting them as absolute and saying this is what you have to believe

01:16:45.080 --> 01:16:49.600
and we're training you so you can get others to believe this, but what does it matter what

01:16:49.600 --> 01:16:52.960
anybody believes, they're just concepts.

01:16:52.960 --> 01:16:58.000
Yes, they are just concepts, they are just concepts, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:16:58.000 --> 01:17:07.560
And I don't know, there is such a supermarket now of Advaita out there, I suppose for listeners,

01:17:07.560 --> 01:17:14.880
take whatever is useful, but to be so honest with yourself, is it real or do I want to

01:17:14.880 --> 01:17:15.880
believe this?

01:17:15.880 --> 01:17:20.840
Is this actually going to, is this the next step or does this make sense?

01:17:20.840 --> 01:17:25.880
Now if you wake up, that's fine, that's magic, wonderful, delighted for anybody who wakes

01:17:25.880 --> 01:17:29.080
up on the park bench, they don't have to do all the madness, the jacket.

01:17:29.080 --> 01:17:35.400
So but you can't sit around and wait for that to happen, and it might or might not happen,

01:17:35.400 --> 01:17:39.880
if it's going to happen it's going to happen anyway, but in the meantime, gosh, yeah, of

01:17:39.880 --> 01:17:44.560
course, let the maturing happen, let the eye finish out what it needs to do, find out if

01:17:44.560 --> 01:17:48.720
there's something that still wants to experience something and have those experiences and go

01:17:48.720 --> 01:17:53.280
go and live and go and travel and go and do whatever it is the I wants to do, so that

01:17:53.280 --> 01:17:58.200
there are no regrets, that experiences are seen through, that desires are seen through,

01:17:58.200 --> 01:18:04.480
and maturity needs to kick in, so that it's seen that none of these things are real enough,

01:18:04.480 --> 01:18:09.640
the juice is gone from what the phenomenal world can offer, from even what my mind and

01:18:09.640 --> 01:18:13.600
my concepts can offer, the juice is gone.

01:18:13.600 --> 01:18:19.680
that maturity needs to happen and for many that won't happen at all in a meditation hall.

01:18:19.680 --> 01:18:23.760
For some you can see an immature eye sitting in a meditation hall and it's like, "Jesus,

01:18:23.760 --> 01:18:28.880
if you went out and lived in the world, you know what, there'd be a different energy

01:18:28.880 --> 01:18:31.560
form sitting here two years later."

01:18:31.560 --> 01:18:34.200
You know, it's totally, totally individual.

01:18:34.200 --> 01:18:36.520
Thankfully there are no two paths the same.

01:18:36.520 --> 01:18:40.720
So really feeling where you're at and not grabbing, because the spiritual supermarket

01:18:40.720 --> 01:18:44.640
like any supermarket, you know, give me the color red first, regardless of what's in the

01:18:44.640 --> 01:18:45.640
packet.

01:18:45.640 --> 01:18:48.200
You know, it's like, hold on, hold on, what do you need?

01:18:48.200 --> 01:18:49.200
What makes sense?

01:18:49.200 --> 01:18:50.200
Where are you stuck?

01:18:50.200 --> 01:18:51.200
Where is there a contraction?

01:18:51.200 --> 01:18:53.960
Where is there a tightness?

01:18:53.960 --> 01:18:55.960
Where are you holding on to a belief system?

01:18:55.960 --> 01:18:59.240
Because the belief system is making you think you're an individual.

01:18:59.240 --> 01:19:00.960
So and then there's an I who hangs on to it.

01:19:00.960 --> 01:19:05.240
It's like, okay, have a look at self-image, have a look at these sticky ones, you know,

01:19:05.240 --> 01:19:08.560
have a look at when you defend yourself, have a look at these things that make you feel

01:19:08.560 --> 01:19:10.320
that you are an individual.

01:19:10.320 --> 01:19:12.560
That's the work, that's what it is.

01:19:12.560 --> 01:19:16.080
>>Rick: Speaking of the work, I'm sure you've heard of Byron Katie, right?

01:19:16.080 --> 01:19:18.960
She's very good at it, she has a nice little technique for helping to do that.

01:19:18.960 --> 01:19:22.160
>>Katie: She has a nice technique, she does, she does.

01:19:22.160 --> 01:19:23.920
That helps a lot of people.

01:19:23.920 --> 01:19:26.280
It does, yeah, it does.

01:19:26.280 --> 01:19:32.840
Whatever tool it is, and this intellectual snobbery that's part of this non-dual movement

01:19:32.840 --> 01:19:35.560
now, it's like, "Oh, Jesus!"

01:19:35.560 --> 01:19:40.560
no maturity at all and so many people are just grabbing the intellectual aspect of it and

01:19:40.560 --> 01:19:42.600
it's like, what good is that to you?

01:19:42.600 --> 01:19:46.640
You know when you're trying to pay a mortgage, now balance it up, balance it up.

01:19:46.640 --> 01:19:51.520
When you're in the horrors because you're in physical pain and you're attached to your

01:19:51.520 --> 01:19:55.120
physical pain and you believe that you are doing your body, what good is it now?

01:19:55.120 --> 01:20:00.240
I'll send you a link to a very funny cartoon, it's an animated cartoon, it lasts about ten

01:20:00.240 --> 01:20:04.440
minutes but it's about a conversation with a neo-advaitist and someone who just says,

01:20:04.440 --> 01:20:07.780
"Hey look at the beautiful tree" and he goes into this whole thing about there is no tree,

01:20:07.780 --> 01:20:09.280
there is no beauty, there is no self.

01:20:09.280 --> 01:20:12.000
They go back and forth, I'll send you the link.

01:20:12.000 --> 01:20:13.000
Good, good, good, thank you.

01:20:13.000 --> 01:20:14.000
I'm sorry, I interrupted you.

01:20:14.000 --> 01:20:15.000
No, not at all, sure, whatever.

01:20:15.000 --> 01:20:16.000
Good.

01:20:16.000 --> 01:20:30.280
Yeah, so I don't know, it goes the way it goes, you know, and is there a path, is there

01:20:30.280 --> 01:20:31.280
not a path?

01:20:31.280 --> 01:20:36.560
There's a path for an eye and there's no point in dropping a spiritual path until it is totally

01:20:36.560 --> 01:20:42.200
known and seen and understood that it's useless.

01:20:42.200 --> 01:20:46.440
You know, you have to mature to the point to see that the spiritual search is actually

01:20:46.440 --> 01:20:47.440
the obstacle.

01:20:47.440 --> 01:20:53.520
But to grab that, because like for Jack, I never heard that sentence, that the search

01:20:53.520 --> 01:20:54.520
is blocking me.

01:20:54.520 --> 01:21:00.080
It popped, it was like, "Jesus Christ, here I am doing japa, this is the problem, this

01:21:00.080 --> 01:21:04.880
is the problem, because there's me and there's some participants, holy shit, what am I going

01:21:04.880 --> 01:21:05.880
to do now?

01:21:05.880 --> 01:21:08.560
You can't do anything, whatever you do is going to be a block.

01:21:08.560 --> 01:21:13.200
So in one way it was a blessing that there was no, even though I was like, God, will

01:21:13.200 --> 01:21:16.520
somebody tell me what I'm going through, somebody tell me what this thing is about, and I could

01:21:16.520 --> 01:21:21.440
get answers nowhere, because it was pre this internet availability of this information.

01:21:21.440 --> 01:21:28.280
So now people have that, so arriving at these points isn't happening, the natural maturing

01:21:28.280 --> 01:21:29.280
isn't happening.

01:21:29.280 --> 01:21:36.280
And I would suggest that your Joppa and various other things you did were not blocks at a certain stage until they were.

01:21:36.280 --> 01:21:43.280
It's like training wheels on a bicycle. At a certain stage you need the training wheels and then at a certain stage the training wheels just get in your way.

01:21:43.280 --> 01:21:51.280
They just get in your way. You got it. And make flow as it does and enjoy the flow because it's organic and it's not you anyway.

01:21:51.280 --> 01:21:55.280
But you think it's you and even enjoy that it's you while you think it's you because that too spins out.

01:21:55.280 --> 01:21:56.280
out.

01:21:56.280 --> 01:22:00.160
>>Rick: Yeah, I mean all things must pass as George Harrison is saying.

01:22:00.160 --> 01:22:07.200
>>Kiran: Yeah, exactly, with whatever is presenting as real, it's just presenting as real, so be

01:22:07.200 --> 01:22:12.960
honest about it, let it be where it is, and it will pass, it all passes, of course, the

01:22:12.960 --> 01:22:15.800
whole thing goes up in smoke anyway.

01:22:15.800 --> 01:22:19.360
>>Rick: That's good, I think this point needs to be brought out more because there are so

01:22:19.360 --> 01:22:25.600
so many voices saying, "Give up the search, there is no search, all paths and techniques."

01:22:25.600 --> 01:22:32.300
There's a Zen saying which is something like, "Enlightenment happens accidentally but spiritual

01:22:32.300 --> 01:22:34.120
practices make you accident prone."

01:22:34.120 --> 01:22:37.800
>>Karen: Wonderful, I love it, I love it.

01:22:37.800 --> 01:22:40.400
That's a beaut, I haven't heard that before.

01:22:40.400 --> 01:22:43.400
That's a beaut, that says it in one.

01:22:43.400 --> 01:22:46.400
Yeah, that's how it is.

01:22:46.400 --> 01:22:48.880
>>Rick: Well, this has been a lovely talk.

01:22:48.880 --> 01:22:56.120
I'm so happy that I stumbled across you on YouTube and I'll put this up on my site and

01:22:56.120 --> 01:23:00.880
help more people stumble across you.

01:23:00.880 --> 01:23:02.600
I'll link to your site.

01:23:02.600 --> 01:23:06.880
I've already put a thing up on the site but I haven't added this interview obviously because

01:23:06.880 --> 01:23:09.840
I haven't done it yet.

01:23:09.840 --> 01:23:15.760
I will link to your website and people who want to go there to find out more.

01:23:15.760 --> 01:23:19.600
There are tons of talks that you've given on the site.

01:23:19.600 --> 01:23:25.040
I have this little tool in Firefox called Download Them All and I applied it to your page and

01:23:25.040 --> 01:23:28.880
it downloaded over 7 gigabytes of audio, just audio.

01:23:28.880 --> 01:23:32.640
God, is there that much up there?

01:23:32.640 --> 01:23:35.800
And then there's tons of videos.

01:23:35.800 --> 01:23:39.240
People are going to have a feast if they want to listen to you.

01:23:39.240 --> 01:23:44.920
Yeah, if it works for them and if it drives them nuts, there's other people out there,

01:23:44.920 --> 01:23:48.160
know, whatever works. And you travel around and I'm sure you have

01:23:48.160 --> 01:23:51.440
some kind of mailing list people can get on if they want to be notified of where you're

01:23:51.440 --> 01:23:54.680
going to be. It's just on my website really, I don't have

01:23:54.680 --> 01:23:58.600
a mailing list. It's just on my website, people check in where they want to check in,

01:23:58.600 --> 01:24:02.160
but a retreat center is being built in Costa Rica so I'm going to live there.

01:24:02.160 --> 01:24:06.160
Oh nice, will it be yours exclusively or sort of for other teachers to help?

01:24:06.160 --> 01:24:11.240
No, it's just myself, somebody's building it and I'm going to live there.

01:24:11.240 --> 01:24:18.440
It's just a small intimate, whoever wants to come.

01:24:18.440 --> 01:24:24.880
Something here is moving away from giving isolated satsang events, it just feels like a spiritual

01:24:24.880 --> 01:24:28.360
opener or something, it's kind of like too much of a supermarket, "Oh who's in town this

01:24:28.360 --> 01:24:29.360
weekend?"

01:24:29.360 --> 01:24:37.280
"Ah, give me somebody who's a mature seeker, who's done a lot of work" and in some way

01:24:37.280 --> 01:24:38.880
way then.

01:24:38.880 --> 01:24:51.320
I don't know, I'm not drawn to working with a mind that's suspicious and just checking

01:24:51.320 --> 01:24:53.640
out, testing out to see what something is like.

01:24:53.640 --> 01:24:54.640
It's like, "Oh come on, come on, come on."

01:24:54.640 --> 01:24:58.280
>>Rick: Well you know I see that too as a stage in your progress, because you went through

01:24:58.280 --> 01:25:03.560
the phase of doing the satsangs and come one, come all, and now you're entering a new phase,

01:25:03.560 --> 01:25:06.560
which probably won't be your final phase, it's another phase.

01:25:06.560 --> 01:25:12.480
I'm sure, it's just another phase, so now it's residentials, it's just all residentials,

01:25:12.480 --> 01:25:14.520
you know, that's where it's moving to now.

01:25:14.520 --> 01:25:18.880
So yeah, that will fade too and that will seem like a bad idea at some point and then we'll

01:25:18.880 --> 01:25:19.880
do something else.

01:25:19.880 --> 01:25:21.880
R: Yeah, but each phase serves its purpose.

01:25:21.880 --> 01:25:25.560
K: Yeah, it does of course, it keeps moving and changing, thank heaven.

01:25:25.560 --> 01:25:28.320
R: And Costa Rica is not such a bad place to hang out?

01:25:28.320 --> 01:25:36.280
K: I believe so, yeah, it's got a nice vibe, you know, something slow, something gentle,

01:25:36.280 --> 01:25:43.280
and the weather is a hell of a lot nicer than in Ireland.

01:25:43.280 --> 01:25:44.800
Rick>> Thanks so much Jack.

01:25:44.800 --> 01:25:46.600
Janna>> Thanks so much Rick.

01:25:46.600 --> 01:25:47.600
It was fun.

01:25:47.600 --> 01:25:49.840
Rick>> Yeah, don't hang up on me quite yet.

01:25:49.840 --> 01:25:54.840
I just want to wrap it up here and then we'll talk for just a second after we wrap it up.

01:25:54.840 --> 01:26:02.360
So this has been Buddha at the Gas Pump, episode number 41 I believe.

01:26:02.360 --> 01:26:10.060
My name again is Rick Archer, I've been speaking with Jack O'Keefe in Ireland and not sure

01:26:10.060 --> 01:26:12.960
who's going to be next week, but we'll see you then.

01:26:12.960 --> 01:26:13.800
Thank you for listening.

01:26:13.800 --> 01:26:40.780
[ Music ]