And it is wild. It is not tame. We're not a pristine French garden.
We are a wild forest.
Yes, exactly. When you turn over a log, that life proliferating in that dark, wet space,
you know, that's what we are. And cultivating the ability to enjoy the wildness,
you know, makes the whole thing much more fun.
Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer.
Buddha at the Gas Pump, if you have never seen it before, is an ongoing series of
conversations with spiritually awakening people.
I've done about 725 of them now and if you would like to watch previous ones,
go to batgap.com and you'll see them organized in various ways and you'll also see a link
to an audio podcast thing where you can subscribe on iTunes or Spotify or any of those things.
This program is made possible through the support of appreciative listeners and viewers,
so if you appreciate it and would like to help support it, there are PayPal buttons
on every page of the site and a page that explains alternatives to PayPal.
My guest today is Lisa Carrillo, and I'm going to have her introduce herself rather than me
read a little canned bio.
So Lisa, tell us about yourself for starters.
Thank you so much, Rick.
It's really great to be here.
I actually had a chemical engineering degree and was working in engineering and product
management.
But spirituality was always, since I was a child, the most important thing to me.
And there came a point when somebody told me enlightenment is real.
And I had no idea what that meant, but to me it meant something very intimate and alive
with the infinite.
And I wanted it.
It rang a bell.
Yes.
So I started listening to many teachers, some of whom you've interviewed.
At a silent retreat in 2009, my thoughts of an individual person just completely dropped
away.
the mechanism in my mind that had created the sense that I was choosing, I was making things
happen and it was a lot of machinations my mind had to go through to create that individual
identity.
Once that was done, it stayed gone for three weeks or so, I could just see so clearly this
singleness that is erupting as everything and then those thoughts came back but they
no longer seemed real, instead they just seemed like a curiosity to explore.
And so in that process, I started being able to understand even better what we do to make
ourselves suffer, what we do to make ourselves feel independent, separate, and I end up having
all these tools for helping them unravel and put them down in one book.
And then as I saw people play with them, I noticed that there's a lot of really fundamental
ideas that we have to also let go of if we want to be able to really fully experience
this that we already are.
And so my second book was driven by helping really tease out some of those fundamental
things that aren't even true.
Now it's just this ongoing joy, lightness of being, moving in the flow, and finding conditionings
and still get to be with God and dropped away.
You not only have a chemical engineering degree, you have like about five lifetimes worth of
education.
You've got an MBA and all these other degrees and various other things.
I don't know how you found the time and were able to sustain the student loan debt to do
all that, but it was impressive.
has come easily and some of my employers helped pay for it and so then my fields I worked
in made enough money where I could pay for it.
Good.
I read all of your second book and most of your first book and I seem to recall that even
as a young child, like three years old and all, you had certain insights that perhaps
were precursors of the fact that you ended up on a rather spiritual path.
You want to tell us about those a little bit?
Yes, sure. I remember the moment that an identity formed, that it solidified. My parents had
brought me next door to say goodbye to some friends who were moving away. I wanted to
go play in the back room. They said no, and they said we didn't have time. And after however
many minutes, I decided, oh, there was enough time, and they weren't looking out for me.
And so in that moment, I started developing strategies to look out for myself.
Then it was less than a year later, we also had moved, and at night, some big pressure
would come on me, and I'd feel like I was about to suffocate.
I would close my eyes and hope that I would live through it.
And then it would go away, and I'd forget about it.
And then it would happen again at night.
And one time I decided I've got to open my eyes and see what this thing is.
When I opened my eyes, I saw it was invisible.
And then I knew no adult could help me.
So I started thinking, okay, I have to handle this by myself.
And what I realized is I wasn't stronger than this thing.
But I questioned, was I actually being hurt?
And I noticed every time I survived.
So I thought maybe I'll always live through it.
So the next time I just let the pressure come and waited and noticed I was still getting
enough air and then it went away and shortly after that it stopped coming.
And one other time I picked up a picture of Jesus and the children and I looked at the
picture and I knew that it was describing this place I remembered being.
I thought to myself, it doesn't quite look like that, but I know they're getting that.
And I brought it to my mom and said, "How can I get here?"
And she said something about church or something.
And I thought, "Oh, she doesn't know what she's talking about."
Because I knew it was a real place.
It wasn't something you had to do all this other stuff to get there.
So what was this pressure?
I have no idea what it actually was.
What did it feel like?
It felt like I was going to suffocate.
It felt like something very heavy on top of me.
I don't remember feeling particularly hot, but I wasn't cold either.
It was more on the warm side.
But it felt like something all over my whole body on top of me.
Could it have been the presence of being pushing up into your awareness or am I misinterpreting
that?
I have wondered.
Could it be something like that or could it be it was my astral body finally deciding
to take full residence in my body?
I don't know.
time. I can say that it felt threatening at first, then once I stopped being afraid
of it, it did no longer felt threatening. They say that when kids are really young
they really aren't in their body yet, they're just out there and then
there's this coming down to earth so to speak and getting more and more embodied
and maybe that's what the terrible twos are all about. We're like really pissed
that we're getting so localized. Who knows?
Who knows? The thing I can say is it feels like a gift. Now that I have had that experience,
there's a certain amount of fear I could never have after that because I just know what is
right now is what you have. You can't be afraid of what isn't fear.
And what was the second thing you said? There was the pressure and then your parents. Picture
of Jesus, are you suggesting that you were perhaps having some kind of past life memory
or what are you suggesting there?
Yeah.
In between lives. So you're not saying that you were one of those children that hung out
with Jesus, you're just saying it was reminiscent of some kind of higher realm that you could
still vaguely remember.
Yes, exactly.
Okay.
Exactly. I love Michael Newton's books. It has definitely brought back memories for me.
One thing about that, even the soul is still not as real as what we are.
So it feels to me like there's these levels of awareness.
The physical realm is the least real, the most transient, the most like a play.
But even the spirit realm, the soul realm, is still somewhat of a projection and what
we are, that's the absolute.
So while certainly I feel the strong draw to the soul realm, the what we are doesn't require
any of that.
It's here and what we are.
Do you know about the pancha-kosha model in Vedanta?
No.
Pancha means five and kosha means sheath.
And so the five, I'll go through it very quickly.
So the grossest one is called the anamaya-kosha and anamaya means food and it's the physical
body which is made of food.
And then subtler, it was prana-maya-kosha, breath. Subtler than that, mano-maya-kosha,
mind. Subtler than that, vijnana-maya-kosha, intellect. And subtler than that, ananda-maya-kosha,
which ananda means bliss. But you'll note that in every one of those koshas or sheaths,
and you can think of Russian dolls perhaps, we have the word maya, which means that it's
not ultimately real. And so beyond all that is Atman. But the subtle body, which is made
up of the four subtler sheaths, discounting the grossest one, the physical body, the subtle
body, is that which continues after the gross body dies and that which has the kinds of experiences
you alluded to, some kind of subtle realm that you occupied in some previous state.
So like what you just said, you just said all these subtle levels are cool, but ultimately
I know there's something more fundamental than that.
And that's what this model is meant to describe.
Yeah, exactly.
And there's nothing we have to do to be that.
It's what we've always been and we can't get out of it.
But is there something we might want to do or could do to realize we are that?
Because there's a difference between realizing and being.
Yes, exactly.
And that realization does nothing for the absolute.
purely for our own enjoyment.
It's no achievement.
It's something that just helps us enjoy ourselves more.
An asteroid could hit the earth and we'll all be blown to bits.
It won't affect the absolute one way or the other.
It couldn't care.
It doesn't have feelings or anything.
But it might make a difference to us.
It was a bad day for the dinosaurs.
It could be a bad day for us.
Yeah.
And ultimately, for me the discovery is that because that is what I really am, there is
not a bad day.
Because each thing that gets challenged is either taking away something I didn't need
or showing me something that I thought was important to me, turns out it's not.
Yeah.
And when I hear statements like that, and I agree with it, my life pretty much flows in
the same way, but I think, would that perspective hold up if I were being tortured to death?
Take it to some horrible extreme?
Or would the intensity of that experience overshadow that realization?
Yes, this is a common question.
And for me, I actually can say it was confidence.
Because I was in the hospital, and there were three days that felt like my body was being
ripped apart. I'd been given less than 50% chance of living, my body is not doing
well, I could only take a certain amount of medication, and part of the treatment
was extremely painful. And I just remember there was no awfulizing possible. It was
just pure pain now, and then pure pain now. It was just pure physical pain, but
There really wasn't suffering. It was just a very present moment. And what was amazing is there was strength that was sufficient for each moment.
Like somehow the surviving, the strength just kept showing up. And I really feel like there's an inner strength we don't know until there's a time when we actually get to experience how much it really is.
Yeah, and if you think of some of the horrific things people have been through, concentration
camps and the situation in Gaza and whatnot, and many other situations, you wonder there
but for the grace of God go I, but you can't help but think how would I hold up under such
a circumstance?
Would I have the resources to somehow manage?
And I don't know, if you interviewed everybody who survived Auschwitz, I wonder what kind
of answers you would get?
We can try to project and try to figure out the different categories of suffering, but
for me, I keep it mostly personal and I go back to everything that looked negative in
my life.
And really, it's been a very deliberate practice of checking every single one until I decided
I wouldn't trade it.
has been more good that came out of it. And part of it did require a shift in values.
If my value was going to be, I don't know, as recognized or as expressed in my creativity
or as whatever, then maybe I wouldn't have come to that conclusion. But for me, the thing
more important than anything is knowing what's true. More important than anything. And every
single one helped me get to the point where I knew more and more of what's true. And I
wouldn't trade that. I would not trade that.
Yeah, if you see the universe as ultimately benign, if we could zoom out far enough, and
as being this big evolution machine that helps everyone progress as best they can, then from
that perspective you really can't dismiss anything as just capricious or arbitrary or
Some people use these kinds of examples to dismiss the possibility that there could be
anything resembling God or however we want to define God because how could God allow
such things?
If we think of God as this all-pervading intelligence which has this evolutionary force, imperative,
that guides the universe or governs the universe to evolve more and all the souls within it
to do, then as difficult as it may seem, from that perspective, you have to accept that everything
that happens is in the interest of evolution.
Right.
And if anybody wants to send in questions, objecting, that's fine with us.
It feels like we are it.
We aren't separate from that.
And in fact, it is love driving us out to an experience of separation to bring back these
experiences.
It is love that motivates this.
But as a concept, I don't know that it's at all helpful, but what seems to be much more
helpful is really getting to know this that we are.
And I know you have intimate experiences too.
As we feel this infinite, we feel its benevolence, we feel its creativity, we feel its harmony.
just the opening and relaxation that happens, a letting go, a willingness to savor, just
this sweetness that starts to purvey life and my gosh, what more could you ask for?
You may know that T.S.
Eliot line about coming back to the place from which we started and knowing it for the
first time.
But what would you say is the purpose of the whole rigamarole, this whole going out as you
said and then bringing things back and pure intelligence losing itself as it were apparently
supposedly and then rediscovering itself. What do you think is the purpose of that game?
When I sit in that point of the absolute and the manifestation and just feel right in that
vortex there, fulcrum. What I feel is something like a precursor to joy. That is the rush
of joy expressing itself. It's right before joy and then as joy erupts it decides and
how do I express this joy and it comes into manifestation.
Good answer. A teacher of mine who was very influential in my life used to say that the
purpose of creation is the expansion of happiness, which is what you just said.
That's perfect.
Yeah.
You said initially you were on some retreat or course and there was a shift where you lost your sense of personal identity and then it reassembled a few weeks later.
I often ponder this question because a lot of people bring it up and perhaps you could define what you mean by personal identity.
Because I imagine during those three weeks when you were in that phase, if someone had
said "Hey Lisa" you would have turned your head or if you had stubbed your toe there would
have been pain that some guy in New Zealand wouldn't have felt.
It was felt there in the Lisa body.
Which suggests some kind of personal identity even though at the same time you felt like
it had been lost.
So what do you say to that?
The main thing that was so absent was any construct required to make it feel like there's a local
choice being made.
I could see how in every moment my mind was projecting oodles of possibilities of what
the mind-body might do and then when the choice came through, which was coming from somewhere
much deeper, then all those other options would fall away and the one that actually happened
would crystallize and then it would feel like I had chosen it because I had pre-thought
it.
Instead of I had pre-thought every other thing too.
I just was forgetting that.
All there is just this one harmonious movement like a giant choreographer.
That's all there ever is so there never can be a mistake.
And this harmonious movement just erupts in through each mind body.
It's like when you're trying to make a decision and you don't know what to do, you can't make
yourself make a decision.
I would, and I guess can still do this, feel into, okay, what if I did that?
What if I did that?
And just feel which one feels like there's an avenue inside for it.
Because what's going to happen is where the avenue is coming out of the absolute.
So that's the biggest way where I would say there's not a personal beam here.
So it almost sounds like there is and there isn't.
So there's your mind, which does mind things, like, "What about this?
What about that?"
And individual mind having thoughts.
But then when it comes right down to it, when push comes to shove, the action tends to be
a spontaneous expression of some intuitive thing that is beyond all that mind chatter.
Sounds like that's what you're saying.
Yeah, exactly.
I would say the mind is almost like another sense organ.
It senses ideas and organizes the ideas, but it can't really make anything happen.
It's like the tongue tastes food.
it tastes something bad it'll spit it out just automatically. But it can't make another
flavor come into its experience. The mind can't create anything. It can just receive.
Yeah, it doesn't feel like the mind is anything more than an organizer.
The other day I re-watched a little video that I love about three minutes long by Carl
Sagan called Pale Blue Dot. I don't know if you've ever watched that, but it's a picture
of the Earth taken from somewhere out around the rings of Saturn and you can see this little
pale blue dot. And Carl Sagan, who is a famous astronomer, goes into this explanation of
"it's on this little dot that all these wars have been fought over little tiny bits
of the dot and people have considered themselves to be so important because they are the ruler
of that little tiny bit of the dot." And it all seems so absurd from that perspective.
The mind can only comprehend so much, a human mind, right?
It's very limited in its comprehension.
We have little snippets of this information and that experience and that learning and
so on.
But it sounds like you're saying is that when the action actually arises, it's arising from
something that is not constrained by mental limitations.
We could think of there being a kind of a field of all knowledge that underlies everything
and that can somehow motivate individual life.
There's a saying, I think I told you this on the phone the other day, that Brahman is
the charioteer.
So that there's that vast vastness that can actually guide the reins of our life, despite
what our individual mind might conjure up.
Which is always guiding the reins of our life.
For me it feels like this perfect harmonious web that is spontaneously intelligent.
things shift, it doesn't have to pre-plan. It just brings all the shifts into the
next perfect moment. One thing that seems helpful in being able to feel this is
what part of us can sense space or resonates with space. We don't have any
sense organ that can feel space but most of us can actually be in space, be in
silence and there's something that resonates with it.
Different people have different capacities for being in silence. Of course everyone has
silence at their core, but people have varying degrees of mental chatter going on and in
some it's such a cacophony that the silence is pretty much obliterated. And so they're
just bounced around by the cacophony and often make very unwise decisions. And many spiritual
teachings advise to somehow quieten the chatter so it doesn't obscure the
silence so much and then we can attune ourselves better to that silence and it
can be in the driver's seat more. Yes? Yeah, the meditation that I have as my home
ground meditation is feeling the aliveness erupting here. So just where's
that core beingness and then it doesn't so much require having to silence the
brain because the brain does what the brain does but it's directing attention
towards something that is really interesting it really has its own life
it is this very vibrant necessary essential aspect of what we are. And when
you do that what how would you describe it again? Feeling where the aliveness is
emerging into this being.
And so when you actually practice that, I presume it's a practice that you might also teach,
you just close your eyes and let your mind settle down?
Or you explain it, what is it exactly that you do?
So close my eyes and just feel there's something that says "I am," and then there's a knowing
of being and then where is that point of eruption that the being is sprouting from?
It's that root of aliveness.
Where being sprouts from.
Is that immediately obvious or does it sometimes take 10-15 minutes to settle down to the point
where you cognize that level of sprouting?
For me it's pretty obvious.
But I think...
You've been doing it for a long time.
I think it can take several minutes.
It's just some people, all you notice is breath and heartbeat.
But then you feel that they're generated out of something and you just keep going a little
more core, a little deeper into the gut and it's just this sense.
Oh yeah, being is before emotions and thoughts and sensations and before being is this root
of aliveness. Yeah, and I imagine you find it to be a charming experience, enjoyable, right?
Yeah, definitely enjoyable. And do you feel like your attention follows the charm? In other words,
there's two ways of keeping a dog at the door, right? One would be to chain it up, and another
is to put some nice food there, and the dog, "Oh, I'll stay there." There's some kind of charm that
leads your attention inward, would you say? Absolutely. I really am not a fan of any method
of control for spiritual practice.
I mean, ego is control, right?
Yeah, I agree.
That's always been my orientation.
I presume, aside from the fact that you have a normal job and stuff, you do some spiritual
teaching, right?
You work with some people and all, and you teach them this.
Not that there's a whole lot to teach, it's a natural thing, right?
And the people pretty much take to it like ducks to water, or do some people say, "I
don't get it, I can't settle down, I'm having a problem."
no place to get to. So in that case, then I just look at life. I feel like life is an
endless workshop, always offering me exactly what I need as the doorway in. And whatever
it is in my life where I'm trying to wrestle control is exactly the place where if I let
go, I'll discover this natural harmony already there. So I just ask people, what is it that
you are chasing in life or what is it that you're struggling with in life and what's
the identity that holds you to doing that. So it could be I have to be responsible or
I can't be bored or my time is my own or I need to be understood or respected. Whatever
it is, there's a need that is driving that. If we just look and question, is that need
true. And that's what the whole first book is. All these different ways of getting to
the point of realizing it's not. In fact, I share in that first book this dream I had
where I arrived to this place, you could go on a tour, it was paradise. And when you go
out anywhere in this place, everything is constantly shifting to give you the best experience.
So for example, I went to a restaurant and they shut down the restaurant and moved me
to a different restaurant.
In your dream or in real life?
In my dream.
Okay, yeah.
And it was because this other restaurant had food that I would like even better.
And then I went into a store that was something like a drugstore, a dime store kind of thing,
and then it changed into a floating carpet ride.
Oh, nice.
Yeah.
So I was like, wow, this place is terrific.
And you could stay if you wanted.
You could change residence and live there forever for free.
I was all about that.
And so I went back at the very center was the hotel.
And I was like getting my stuff and leaving.
And most people were not.
And in fact, in the hotel, they tried not to follow the rules of the place and tried
to give you only what you asked for.
So if you ordered something at a restaurant, they actually tried to make sure that's what
you end up getting. And everybody else was like treating paradise like just a fun thing
to taste, that they didn't like the constant uncertainty of it. So they were going home,
and I was just shocked. But that's what our life is. We are in paradise, but if we are
trying to find certainty by what we think our preferences are, then it's not going to
feel like paradise.
Yeah, I forget who said it, but some famous person said, "Certainty is the hobgoblin
of little minds."
I think it was certainty.
Yeah.
And Osho said something about, "It's a love affair with the unknown," is what we actually
are.
And that applies also to awakening.
People have an idea sometimes that awakening is going to be suddenly in this safe place
of permanent peace and wow there is this amazing underlying peace and I guess
it's safety but it's nothing like that static idea. There's no permanent
anything. It's constant impermanence and it's this welcoming of the impermanence
of welcoming of dynamism that constant now that is always different rather than
a stabilized box of any sort. Yeah, I forget what spiritual teacher said it, but
somebody said that you're in free fall forever, but don't worry because there's
no bottom, you're not gonna go splat. Yes, yes, yeah. And it is what has gotten us
this far. Originally I would have thought it was all my efforting that got me this
far and now I'm turning over to something else and how can I trust that?
But that's it turns out my effort. He never did anything but put labels on everything
If there's anything good in my life right now
I owe it to this that we are and if I think I've got something pretty good then there we go
It's gonna continue being pretty good. Let's talk about efforting a little bit
Let's say you're a college student and you need to study for exams and that's gonna take some effort
and you need to apply yourself throughout the semester and so on to get good enough
grades to stay in college, to go on to graduate school or whatever you want to do.
You can't just spend your time going out to parties and bars, or you can,
but you're going to flunk out.
Maybe you could contrast for us the notion of just following your whims
wherever they may lead or disciplining yourself a little bit and making the choices.
Even though you feel like going to the party, I have an exam tomorrow.
I don't want to be hung over.
I better study and making actual decisions.
that perhaps make your life turn out a little bit more successfully?
I love this question. I went back to school in 2015 and I was very curious,
how is this going to work? I realized right away I couldn't even be certain I was going to graduate.
There's just not a knowing of that. But there also is not an attachment to my life looking
any particular way. As it arose that, "Oh, it turns out this test is going to require
more intense time than I thought," there was also the motivation that arrived. Now,
I don't own that motivation. I don't own any interest. I don't own any desire to
participate or improve or give. None of that is local. But I just checked, "Okay, I
I did poorly on a test and lo and behold, the motivation to cut back on my social life and
spend more time studying just showed up.
There's the motivation and there's the interest.
Seems like we're going forward.
And so I just kept doing that until I graduated.
The same thing with taxes.
I was like, okay, what if I truly don't even pretend I'm good at effort?
Let's just see what happens with my taxes.
And lo and behold, there was this thought, "Okay, taxes are going to be happening."
And after a few weeks, there was, "And here's some time, and here's the things to do."
And there was no resistance.
Once there's no resistance, there's no preference that things have to look a certain way, then
when something comes up that needs to be done, there's just willingness.
And taxes always get done well in advance.
quotes come to mind. One is "humility is the quality of not insisting that things happen
any particular way." That's one quote. And another is "turn your desires into preferences."
I hope people get the drift of those. Desires can sometimes be very adamant and rigid and
insistent. "Gotta have this!" But it's more like, you can think of Jesus in the
Garden of Gethsemane, "If it is possible, let this cup pass from me." And then, "After
all that they will be done. And there's a difference between desire implies individual insistence
and concretization, if that's the right word to say, where you just got to be this way,
my way or the highway, whereas preferences, okay, this would be nice, but let's see what
the nature has in store for me. And you want to comment on that?
Absolutely. That my whole second book, or a lot of my second book is devoted to that. There's
so many subtle things we think are absolutely true. I need to be treated
with respect by my boss. No, it turns out. And so it turns out I just started
teasing with him and it became this real playful relationship and lo and behold
because he wasn't respectful it turned into this new avenue or somebody needs
to show up for me like they said they would. They need to keep their
commitments? No, they don't. I learn a whole new way of resilience within myself or whatever
it turns out to be. No. Turns out sometimes it's time to move on, time to say no. And
then when I watch later, I see things, benefits they have because they're not spending time
with me. I mean, there's, I can't be angry with my husband. No, it turns out. I was angry
with my husband, then I went and apologized and he was so loving, so forgiving. It was
this reminder of how much I'm loved.
And if I hadn't done that little tantrum,
I wouldn't have seen that his love is that big.
So being the receiver of whatever it is,
now it's my time to be forgiven,
or now it's my time to be helped,
or now it's my time to be weak, whatever it is,
all these things we think are the bad things to be,
the receiver of somebody else's anger and frustration are always just opportunities to see this
amazing dance play out in a new way that brings us love in a new avenue. So there's no absolute
rule. There's no reason to hold any preference. We can just stay in discovery.
I would agree with the word absolute, but I would question the word preference. I prefer
if it's zero degrees out to have a warm coat on.
That example just came to mind.
Or I prefer if I am really hungry to have some food available.
If I don't have a warm coat or I don't have the food or whatever,
then my insistence that I have some isn't going to help me.
I think it's natural to have desires and preferences and motivations and initiatives and so on.
There's nothing wrong with that. That provides impetus to our life, don't you think?
It's just about being adamant about those things that gets us into trouble.
Thank you for clarifying that.
I meant there's no need to hold on to those preferences.
If life's showing up in a different way, then we might as well explore that.
But yes, it's funny, so many people will say something along the lines of, "Then why is
this terrible thing happening?"
And they're somebody who's helping that.
And obviously the universe is making that thing improve because it's made you interested and
motivated to do something about it.
So somehow we'll try to put ourselves outside while I'm fixing it because the universe did
it.
But we are the universe fixing it.
We are the hands.
We are the heart.
So there's no position outside to evaluate from.
Yeah, I think that what this gets down to is the degree to which one is attuned to cosmic
intelligence or whatever you want to call it.
So choose your synonym, the subtle all-pervading intelligence that governs the universe or
not.
And if one is not, if one is isolated in very individual boundaries, then there is a tendency
to hammer against the way things roll and try to insist that they go this way or that
when the universe might have other ideas, but if your orientation is perhaps more with the
unboundedness than with the individuality, although you have both, the individuality
is more of a willing participant in the plans of the universality.
Yes, and this is always a difficult conversation because even that is not absolute.
And the words are inadequate, but yeah.
If our experience right now is that we have to be adamant like we just can't be any other
way, then that is what the universe wants to experience through us and adamants go at
it.
And there may be situations which call for that.
And adamants, it will eventually run its course and generally, a fluidity starts to arrive,
but exactly.
There's no thing that isn't right for a reason at some point.
Yeah, I've seen videos of somebody trying to kidnap a child who's walking home from school
and somebody intervenes and says, "No, you are not going to do that!"
They are adamant and they make the situation stop and bravo for them.
It's not a situation that calls for, you know...
Exactly.
This, that we are, is not passive.
It's so dynamic.
We are so alive.
In fact, I would say it's more dynamic than what our egoic idea is because there's no
more second guessing and there's no more what if they don't like it or what if it doesn't
succeed, none of that. There's just a willingness to just move forward and move forward.
Yeah, there's a Gita verse which keeps coming to mind so I might as well just say it and let you
comment on it and we can discuss it. It says, "You have control over action alone, never over
its fruits." The way I relate to that is if something has already happened or if it's happening now,
that's the fruits of some previous action and I have no control over it. I can't say this
shouldn't have happened, my father shouldn't have done that or whatever. It's cut and
stolen already. You can't change that. But right now, I feel like I have some volition,
some wiggle room, and that will have an impact on tomorrow's fruits and the next year's fruits
and so on. Do you concur with that or would you see it differently? I would say, I'm just
Lightly tuning the language, that's it.
That what I am is a constant participation.
Right.
Of course I'm going to participate.
This is what I am.
This is everything else is what I am.
And of course, there's going to be constant participation.
There's no need to be passive and resigned or accepting in a way that's not engaged.
It's just a natural engagement.
Do you have any children?
No, I don't actually.
Alright, so let's say you had a little child, it might have been 20 years ago, but you had
a child, and the kid was like Calvin from the Calvin and Hobbes comic strip, and Calvin's
favorite breakfast cereal was chocolate frosted sugar bombs, and he at least used to like
to dump a lot of sugar on top of it in addition to the sugar that was already in it.
And so then naturally Calvin would have a huge sugar rush and then crash later on.
If you're a mother and your kid wanted chocolate frosted sugar bombs every morning for breakfast
donuts for dinner, I imagine you would put your foot down, you would be decisive, you
would be disciplining to some extent, kindly, wouldn't you say?
I'd want to help the child cultivate a taste for what actually made them feel good.
Any time that we're suffering, we've abandoned what makes us feel good.
We've attached to an idea, and that idea is very painful.
And it feels like letting go of that idea is going to be more painful.
What if I just let these people not understand me?
What if I just let these people think I'm a bad person or whatever it is?
What if I just let that happen?
That's going to be even worse.
I'm going to sit here, think about how they mistreated me or I'm going to sit here and
think about all the mistakes I made so I won't make them in the future.
I've definitely done that one.
All of those things are attached to a particular idea that actually is making it worse.
We layer suffering upon suffering and there's a lightness when we realize we're already
whole, already complete.
We don't have to be anything else and everything we need is actually within this being within
us.
It's so light.
to me is the hallmark that, okay, when you're light, okay, now the truth is starting to
filter through more and more.
Yeah, I want to respond to that, but first I'm chuckling at another Calvin and Hobbes.
There was a scene where Calvin is pounding nails into the coffee table and his mother
comes in and says, "Calvin, what are you doing?"
And Calvin looks up at her and says, "Is this a trick question?"
That's the obvious way he's doing it.
Yes, that's exactly it. All day long, it's just that simple.
All anybody's ever doing is pounding meals into the coffee table.
That's all they're ever doing. And we're making it mean,
they like me, they don't like me. I'm going to get money, I'm not going to get money.
My house is going to fall apart, my house isn't going to fall apart.
Yeah, alright. What would you say if, let's say you went to Los Angeles and decided to
counsel the people whose homes have burned down, who are living in shelters if they're
lucky enough to find one. What would you say to such people that would actually connect
to them if possible, and that wouldn't seem like a lot of spiritual bypassing?
acknowledging this sense of loss, obviously,
they're feeling this sense of loss,
and then most of them,
once you actually hear enough of the loss,
on their own, people can only talk about loss so much,
on their own, they'll mention, but at least I'm alive.
- Yeah. - At least
I've still got my dog.
It's this natural thing we've got.
- Yeah. - And so,
nurturing that, wow, that's true.
That's really true. I've been wanting to move out of LA for a while. I think now it's time.
You have?
All of a sudden...
Oh, they have.
No, that will often happen. They actually were planning to do what they're about to have to do anyways.
Yeah. Of course, they weren't all planning to move out, but yeah.
I use examples like that because these spiritual principles that we discuss sound fine.
They sound lovely, but they have to meet the nitty-gritty of life and be interpretable
in the most dire circumstances if they are really solid, if they're really valid, I think.
And even though you and I aren't experiencing the most dire of circumstances, it's worth
conjecturing as to how they might be useful or apply in such circumstances.
At least that's what I go through in my thought experiments.
Yeah, in the middle of the catastrophe, there's a lot of just, OK, what do we have to do next?
What do we have to do next?
How are we going to get our dinner tonight?
That kind of thing.
And it's a little bit later when you can look back and then there's the choice point.
Am I going to re-traumatize myself by adding on all this, oh, I was so bad, I should have done this.
Or now this is going to happen and I'm never going to get that.
We awfulize and just gently noticing, helping people notice,
well, I'm actually making myself feel worse.
I'm rehearsing all the mistakes I made that led to this or all the future
things that won't happen now, but really that's not the truth.
We don't know what's the future.
For me, it just keeps turning out.
Good things always come.
And all those things I thought were mistakes were essential.
The interpretation just adds so much pain and just helping people step back for the interpretation,
notice the good that is being provided, and really being focused on like when I was being crushed,
am I okay right now? What's the next thing I've got to do? Is there support around me to help that
Yeah, if anybody's listening to this wants to send in questions that are good cases in point about the things we're talking about, feel free to do so.
I was just thinking about a webinar that I participated in yesterday and there was a woman who had worked a lot for the Kamala Harris campaign.
And she said she's been in a state of deep depression ever since the election.
And I chimed in with the story of the Chinese farmer, that one?
Yeah.
Who keeps just saying, we'll see every time something happens that either
seems catastrophic or wonderful.
He just says, we'll see.
I think things go in cycles.
Nature goes in cycles.
Naturally, the whole universe goes in cycles and it's inevitable.
Winter, let's say, isn't a bad thing.
If we didn't have winters, we wouldn't have summers, at least in temperate climates.
You need those cycles of rest and activity.
I don't know, that's just how I come to terms with things like that.
It's not the end of my world if my particular political candidate doesn't win or something
because I feel like, all right, then I guess we've got to go through this for a while and
then we'll learn something.
It might appear that damage is done, but somehow that's how humanity progresses through.
Fits and starts, war is in peace.
We don't know if something's going to turn out for good or for not good.
If we could just look at how everything has happened up till now, it's going to turn out
for good.
But that's okay, we don't have to know even that.
But it's very easy to get obsessed with these projections and really, humans are so good.
When I walk down the street, if I fall, there's four people who will help me up.
Yeah.
I mean, the amount of people who are wanting to stand for someone else or want to help
out the people who are hurting or chronically ill or diseased or whatever it is, the number
of people stepping forward to help them and this spiritual awakening that's happening,
I just feel so much goodness bursting through humanity because I'm focusing on the people
I meet every day.
I work in a hospital, I meet all kinds of people. It's a trauma hospital where people get flown
in. There's a goodness that is just erupting in all of humans and when I'm focusing on
this person I'm interacting with and this person, I just feel like we are in such a
positive time.
Yeah, you must be a wonderful person to encounter in a hospital when you're in dire straits.
You're just so cheerful and uplifting. You must have a very nice effect on people, aside
from what your job requires you to do for them.
Yeah, it really is nice to be a calm presence.
Some people that's all they can receive is just the calm presence.
Some people are open to seeing opportunities for where they can feel more hopeful or where
they can have a new perspective on themselves.
As a travel hospital, there's this guy, he was telling me he had this weird tractor situation
where he ended up underneath the tractor and there wasn't any good reason for that to have
happened.
And then he told me actually blah blah blah he went through five other weird accidents
that happened to him.
At first he was getting down about it, what is happening, something's out for him and
then I just said to him, wow it's a miracle you're alive, somebody really wants you to
be alive.
So there's so many different ways you can just stop and see, am I using my thoughts to make
this worse or to make it better? Yeah, I would say somebody really wants you to stop getting
run over by tractors. Wise up buddy, what are you doing? Yeah, we said Michael Newton. Michael
Newton, yeah. Yes, there are souls. Journey of Souls and Life Between Lives, I think that's
what the names of his books were. Destiny of Souls. Destiny of Souls. There are some souls
who specifically choose very challenging lifetimes because they want to get something positive out of
them. They want to learn a wisdom about suffering. I can remember a lifetime
when I had four kids. It was like a tenement period of time and I could not
provide well enough for them and they all died from disease and starvation, low
nutrition. And I came into this life with this guilt that I was gonna end up
causing somebody to die. I was a man in that life. And when I finally went to
that place of the guilt and realizing I was so guilty about these four kids, I just paused
and went and asked their souls, "I messed up. I wasn't there for you. Are you okay?"
And every single one of them said to me, "We didn't want a long life in that life. It was
perfect." And there's just this lightness that came over me like, "Oh, what if I didn't
mess up at all. When you hit truth, that's what happens. It's, "Oh, it's even better
than I thought it could be." I was hoping they'd say something like, "I forgive you.
You did a good job." It's, "No!" They said, "No, that's exactly what we wanted." That's
the lightness. When you hit truth, that's the lightness that's available in any situation.
Yeah, there's a story like that at the beginning of the Mahabharata where these celestial beings
are cursed to live a human life. Whoever is cursing them says, "Okay, it'll be a real
short one. You're the main guy who made the mistake. You have to live a full life. The
rest died right after they were born and the other guy had to live a long life." From the
human perspective, it might seem like a tragedy. And I'm not being glib here. I'm not suggesting
that it's okay for babies to be blown up with bombs or whatever, all the horrible things
that happen. Anything we can do to prevent such things from happening, we should do.
nobody dies ultimately. If we live a short life is it a mistake or do we have a
contract that designates that this will be a short life and then we fulfilled
our contract. It's just gift after gift. The mind lots of times needs these
concepts to relax. So the concept that wow I'm a healer soul over many lifetimes
and I wanted to have this horrible body for this lifetime to help me develop my
capacities or I wanted to have this mental illness to help me develop my
capacity, it helps our mind relax. Yeah. And then fundamentally more and more the
mind just knows, okay maybe there's good here that I don't know. And so then the
mind starts to just automatically relax because fundamentally we're more in
touch with this goodness that is so deep that is what we are. We play with the
mind to help it get these other perspectives that aren't also true. There's no true
theology or dogma. There just means to help the mind relax so that eventually we can get
more and more grounded in this infinite benevolence, this pure love that we are, this pure joy
that we are.
Do you have many experiences like that where you remember past lives?
Yes, I remember one that was almost pure suffering.
I was some kind of a slave in this place.
They were using humans in a place where it wasn't good for humans.
Like it was way too hot because they were doing something with very hot fire,
but they needed a human body.
So they just worked until they died.
Nobody lived past 30.
It developed this sense of strength in me.
It developed a sense that, okay, I'm unharmable.
Look what I survived.
That lifetime was so invaluable.
I had another one where I was coming out west, somewhere out in the Redwoods,
the Northern California or Oregon, Washington kind of area, and I had my
young bride, I was bringing her, I was so excited, we had all this potential.
I had worked hard to have some money to establish this and she died.
None of my dreams have.
And I felt so lonely and I became a very contributing person in my community.
But I just thought of her my whole life and had this like deep melancholy while I was participating in life.
And then as I came back to that, because I was tuning into that life and resolving it, I checked to see, was I ever really alone?
I felt alone, but was I alone?
And when I asked that part of me that question, no, like I had always held her memory as an
inspiration for the rest of my life. I had all these people I interacted with. It was actually
a very rich life. Even those few years with her, she was such a vibrant person. Those few years
were a gift. They really propelled me through the rest of my life. So no, I had never been alone.
How do you remember dreams in such detail? Do they just come to you spontaneously in visions, in meditation, in dreams or what?
So I took a course with the IAC, the International Academy of Consciousness, to learn how to do astral travel and it's in the vibrational state is where I seem to have most access.
So, what I'll have is I'll have a feeling in this life and it just doesn't seem quite in
proportion to this situation.
Like I can just feel there's another element present.
So then I'll step back and go into the vibrational state, which is just that same state we're
in when we're first waking up.
Sometimes we'll even feel like we're buzzing.
And so I'll just go into that and then check and see, okay, let's feel, where does this
feeling come from? And as I sit there listening for where this feeling has come from, then
the rest of the life comes forward, and then I kind of work with that.
Quite vividly, it seems.
Yes, oh yes. Especially the emotions. The emotions are the most vivid part of it.
Some people say not to try to remember past lives because the past is always a lesser
developed state, but it sounds to me that your remembering them has helped you to resolve
things and learn things from them. Right. And it makes the weight in this life lighter because
somehow some weight from back then is still being carried now. Yeah and you realize, oh,
like you just said, okay, that's where this is coming from. So I can just understand it and not
not worry about it too much. Right. And resolve it. Yeah, I need to be guilty or feel.
Interesting. If people don't believe in past lives, what can we do? For me, it's a piece of
the puzzle without which the whole puzzle would fall apart and a lot of things wouldn't make
sense.
So, I take it for granted, but if people don't believe in it, no problem, they don't need
to.
You don't have to believe in past lives.
Some people believe that there is some kind of thing from our ancestors that we carry.
Okay, maybe I'm resolving something from that.
Or some people could say it's just something in your unconscious.
Okay, great.
I'm tapping into something in my unconscious that's getting resolved.
It doesn't matter where it's coming from.
always only a model. Because none of this is real, even the soul life isn't real.
Perhaps a thousand lifetimes that we're all living, we're living them
simultaneously and they just seem sequential. I would say the model
I would use is it depends on what dimension you're at. In this dimension
things happen sequentially. Then you can go to the next dimension and you can jump
into the sequence wherever you want. You can go to the next dimension and
And everything's happening simultaneously and everything possible is happening simultaneously.
And you keep going. It just depends upon how much limitation you're holding as far as how much you can perceive.
And all those things you just said might be simultaneously true.
It's just that they're filtered differently in different dimensions.
Just the way a tree is a tree, but a bird sees it one way, a frog sees it another way, and a person sees it another way, and so on.
Exactly.
I listened to your books mostly while driving or walking in the woods and I didn't take notes,
although I have in front of me printouts of the tables of contents, are some key elements in
your two books, or even that you didn't put in your books, that would be fun for us to discuss
and helpful for people. Yeah, I think as we're learning to let go, I can't remember what I
I call it in my book, it's this sense of basic goodness that enables the letting go to happen.
Because I see it as two things, here's a side note. We've got the deepening that knows more
and more what we are, and then we've got the unraveling that's dropping conditioning. It
seems like both are important. But the unraveling will be easier done if we tap into the basic
goodness. And some people come into this life with so little experience of love that there's
so much constriction that letting go is their slow process. So how can we build up the sense
of goodness so that the constriction can start to relax? And gratitude is one way, just checking
to see what good thing has happened, what good thing has happened.
It's setting positive intention, just because what we fill our minds with filters in everywhere,
right?
So if we're setting a positive intention for the day and then we see that some of it happens,
it's oh wow, yes, there is some goodness here.
So there's a lot of practices we can do to build that sense of, oh, there is a goodness
here I can relax into. You may know some other ways that people can tap into this.
Oh yeah, there is a holding, like every mistake I've made and yet look my life
didn't go down the drain. Yeah, or what if it did seem to go down the drain? What if
one ends up a drug addict or in prison or something like that? Again I'm using the
dire example techniques or you test a assumption or a teaching against
the darkest example you can think of and see if it holds up. Like there are a couple of
kids in this town who murdered their Spanish teacher because she was giving them a failing
grade and now they're in prison for 30 or 35 years. And I don't know, if you could talk
to those kids, I don't know if it's fair to ask you this, but if you could talk to those
kids, what would you say to them?
I would love to talk to those kids. Because I 100% know that they wouldn't say their life
is 100% misery. They wouldn't. They would probably say I really screwed up, but I learned something.
And in fact, I watched the trial of one of the kids or parts of it, and he was saying,
I hope I can make something good out of this. I hope I can be an example to other kids to
not do such a thing. And perhaps I can learn something when I'm in prison and better myself
in some way, that kind of thing. They could be going through school, they could be meeting
other prisoners that they end up being a light for. You cannot try to be in
somebody else's shoes. You have to ask them, "So has any good showed up?" And nine
times out of ten people have already seen the good that has showed up. And if they
aren't yet, there's no need yet for them to see it. They can allow their misery,
that's okay, but probably it's not going to stay in misery because it just turns
turns out, good shows up. And you have to ask them. But I am 100% sure that if I ask every
prisoner 9 times out of 10 they would say that there has been some good that has shown up
in prison. Yeah, maybe 9 times out of 10, maybe 8, I don't know. Because some people are pretty
hardened and pretty psychotic and it might not be easy for them to see it. But again,
Zooming out, I do think that ultimately everything is in the interest of evolution, whether you
like it or not.
You are on the evolution train and you can kick and scream, but you can't jump off the
train.
And again, that concept is just a way of relaxing the mind.
The more enduring support is just tuning into what we are.
It just turns out we are timeless.
We are unharmable.
that seemed to harm us was just harming our interpretations, our reputation, our image
of ourselves. Nothing ever hurt our real self. In fact, it only made our real self shine
out more clearly. So as we tap into this that is real, we discover that. And so the willingness
to tap into this that is real, it's a gradual willingness. The more that we think we have
to have our own time or be respected or whatever it is, the less the willingness
will be there. Probably anybody who's listening to this has already a
willingness and probably way more than that of knowing this that we are and it
is wild. It is not tame. We're not a pristine French garden. We are a wild forest.
jungle. Exactly. When you turn over a log, that life proliferating in that dark wet
space, that's what we are. And cultivating the ability to enjoy the wildness makes
the whole thing much more fun. Yeah. And I alluded to earlier that we can have
these boxes, a box that looks like confusion or a box that looks like I'm
getting what I want. But either one of them, the happiness of getting what I thought I
wanted and the unhappiness of getting something different, they're still just a box. When
we're tuned into what we are, it's a totally different experience. It's not that box of
getting what I want. It's a discovery and a discovery. So anytime we're not getting
what we want. It's just an invitation into the mystery, to live from mystery, live in
discovery. That's where this life force is more obvious.
Yeah, the Rolling Stones song, right? You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes
you might find you get what you need.
Exactly, exactly.
Okay, what are some other little tidbits from your book? You have all kinds of chapters
on relationships and the length of relationships and friendships and reliability and psychological
health and all kinds of different things. So what are some other little things that you
think might be nice for people to hear about?
There's no should.
There's no should. I thought you said no shit.
No should. So my relationship is better if it lasts longer. Nope, that's not a should.
My financial state will make me happier if I have more money.
Nope, that's not a should.
There's no should.
There's nothing we have to do.
My mental health means I'm more evolved.
Really, there is no should.
Everything that we think we have to live up to, we don't.
We're already complete and we're discovering it.
So here's an image that I got in a sort of vision.
No image is 100% true.
In fact, I'll tell two.
Neither of them are 100% true, but they give a sense of this mystery.
Here's the infinite, and from this glowing ball, it picks out a recipe of 30 different
things, puts the conglomerate together, makes a soul, and throws it out and says, "I wonder
what this recipe would be."
You can't fail.
All you're doing is showing, oh, this is what that recipe does.
That's it.
You can't fail, but be your own recipe.
Just a cat can't be a bad cat.
A cat is a cat.
Whatever it's doing, it's being a cat.
And then the other vision I had was on a Ferris wheel.
When you're on earth, you're in the bottom of the Ferris wheel and in other
realms, you're on the top of the Ferris wheel.
The people on the top of the Ferris wheel always want to have more
than a Ferris wheel experience.
they'd like it to feel a little bit more like a roller coaster. So the job of the
people on the bottom is to make a big ruckus. So the Ferris wheel will rock a
little bit and then when you're on the top you get to feel like a roller
coaster. It turned out that the most mature souls when they were on earth
were making the biggest ruckus because the people on the top were getting the
best ride. So we don't know who is the mature soul. We don't know whether we're
We're living our purpose. We're always living our purpose. You can't do it wrong.
So to translate that vision into a concrete example, Adolf Hitler made a big ruckus. And
in fact, Byron Katie said in her book, Losing the Moon, that Hitler brought more people to
God or might have brought more people to God than Jesus. And she ended up taking that book
out of publication because it was causing so much of a ruckus.
We really don't know, like I said they're just models, but they're opening us up to letting
go of our concepts and being in the mystery.
That's the purpose here, is to be in the mystery and not be so certain that we know that so
and so shouldn't be doing that.
We don't know what Trump is supposed to be doing.
Turns out he's doing what he is doing, what he naturally does.
And I don't know, it's like, again, that doesn't mean passivity or not opposing the situation.
Like Hitler was progressively taking over more and more of Europe and killing more and more
people as he did.
And Neville Chamberlain, who was some kind of diplomat in England, was saying, "I think
we can appease Hitler.
He said he won't do such and such."
And all basically Chamberlain did was give Hitler more time to get ready to cause even
more damage.
And finally, Britain and eventually the US and the various allies said, "We got to stop
this guy.
We can't just be all philosophical about it.
He needs to be clobbered militarily in order to be stopped or it's going to be even worse."
It is.
Infinite is the force stopping and the force initiating, and that's what our human brains
go nuts over.
We say the infinite has to be on one side.
The infinite is on both sides.
like hammering the nails, we want to say, "That is a war and that is bad.
That's an adventure."
Yeah.
You know, it really is.
And we can feel it in ourselves in little moments.
Have you ever, when you were a kid, built a tower of blocks and hashed them to the ground?
Sure.
At St. Lucia's Exuberant!
We have that within ourselves.
The more I own all the parts of myself, the more I feel the friendliness of the universe.
Because I recognize, "Oh yeah, I have that in myself, and yet I know that there's a fundamental
goodness to me."
So how did the fundamental goodness knock all the blocks down?
And as I explore that in myself, when we try to explore things philosophically, the mind
is just not adequate.
But when we feel within ourselves, "Oh, that movement is within me and that movement is
within me," somehow they coexist.
In fact, they create this dynamic exchange that I wouldn't trade.
Then we're starting to understand more and more of what we are.
I feel like, for me, looking inward and feeling what I am demonstrates way more about the
universe than any philosophy ever could.
Yeah, when you think about it, if God is the ultimate reality, or let's call it God for
the time being, just there's some all-encompassing, all-consuming ultimate reality that pervades
and contains everything. Everything means everything. The dark and the light, the violent
and the peaceful, the hot and the cold, the good and the bad, or whatever. If those polarities,
we can say perhaps they don't ultimately have any reality either, but insofar as they
exist relatively, the totality contains them all. So I guess the question is, is there
a preference? Is this divine intelligence just as content with good as with evil as
we understand it? Or is there a trajectory of the universe to move to greater and greater
evolution, which would mean greater happiness for all beings, which seems to be what all
great religious leaders espoused and tried to achieve. But are the bad guys, Attila the
Hun and Adolf Hitler and all the rest, are they equally valid participants in the game
of life as Jesus and Buddha and Krishna and all the... Oh, Krishna, he was advocating
a war, but as all these sort of religious figures, these saintly figures. Obviously,
they play a necessary role, but does the universe have a preference for the good guys to win
over the bad guys in the final analysis.
I can't philosophize on that.
When I feel inside the expression of movement that we seem to be on seems to be moving towards
less slavery, more freedom, more connection, more understanding.
That seems to be the trajectory that this timeline is moving on.
Are there other timelines doing another adventure?
could be, but this timeline when I feel into what the game is we're playing here, that
seems to be the ultimate moving motivation where the life force tends to be proliferating
the most.
And you actually alluded earlier to a mass awakening or a global awakening or whatever,
which I also feel is happening or it seems to be happening from my perspective, and that
actually gives me a lot of optimism, which some people don't have because they just watch
the news and they don't realize that this other stuff is percolating up.
But, yeah.
Yeah, I actually had a vision because I asked, "Why are there so many negative powers, positions
of authority in our world?"
And I was shown this vision where I was in this other dimension and I had no wisdom.
We all did everything right, but we had no wisdom.
For example, this guy was stealing, a friend of mine was stealing from me, and I went and
confronted him and said, "Why are you stealing from me?"
And then I looked and he had taken all the shoes I never wore, and he probably didn't
know, but he was going to be giving them to other people who could use them.
So he was stealing, but it was all for good.
But there was no wisdom in that place.
There was perfect harmony, but there was no wisdom.
Here we get to have the experience of wisdom.
What place are you referring to where there's no wisdom?
This is a vision that I had.
Some other realm or something you say?
Yes.
And it was another realm I went to.
For example, I was getting ready for work and then all of a sudden I found myself distracted
and I end up going to work like three hours late.
And I couldn't believe it.
Like I had been getting ready for work and then all of a sudden I was going to work.
And when I got to work, nobody was upset because they knew if she's not here, it's supposed
to be that way.
And lo and behold, I didn't have any patience for those first three hours.
So here we go.
So everybody knew there that everything happens right.
They just didn't stop.
As a result, they just knew everything was right, but they didn't have a sense of wisdom.
We get to have something that feels like wisdom because it looks to us like there's alternatives
and different possibilities and we can effort to make things happen.
That gives us more of a sense of participation and we get to have the experience of wisdom.
And then I was shown that we have, as a humanity, we've had a tendency to look to higher authorities
instead of tune in.
And by looking to higher authorities, we created a gap where some beings came in who are on
a different timeline, a timeline of merging together through experiences of power.
We're merging through experiences of love and connection, but they're merging on experience
of power.
And it's weird to have the people who are merging through power and the people who are
merging through love in the same place.
And what I have shown is the moment that we no longer looking outside for authority as
a collective, we're tuning in to our inner authority, then there will be no space for
them and it will separate.
And so the people who are on the power timeline or beings or whatever will move on and we will
be listening to our inner authority and it's going to fall off like an old scab. We don't
have to fight to get them to go away. We don't. The moment that we're all tuned into our inner
authority or nephibos or something, we reach that stage, then there will be no space. It
will be like an old scab falling out. Just plop.
That's very interesting. I find that fascinating because not only in this country but around
the world, right-wing authoritarian governments are in the ascendant and fascist or totalitarian
leaders are gaining prominence.
There's even a resurgence of a sort of a Nazism in Germany, which is illegal but it's happening
anyway.
And one thinks, "Oh, this has to be stopped, this has to be opposed."
But those movements gain their oxygen from people who adulate authoritarian figures, who
abdicate their own authority and apply it to some external figure whom they follow as a
cult leader. But if one could become more self-referral and take recourse to one's own
authority, then those people would lose their support very concretely. People would just
follow the beat of their own drummer. Is that the phrase? And wouldn't be giving these
leaders the adulation that they crave, most of them being malignant narcissists anyway.
I see ways that they are giving gifts and we can... I find everybody in the world giving
me gifts. But yes, wherever there are authorities that appear to be out of control, we don't
have to resist them. If it's a calling, somebody came into this life, they wanted to get to
be a warrior. Fabulous. Go for it. If you don't want to be a warrior, you don't have to be
a warrior. Just tuning into the inner wisdom is all it takes, and everything moves on to
its next stage.
Perhaps that's what Jesus meant when he said, "Resist not evil."
Yeah. Yeah. Even people who are considered narcissists, I learned something from them.
There's a certain, I want to say self-love, it's not really self-love, but an enjoyment
of their self that we can all learn from. Why not just totally enjoy what I am? Doesn't
have to be putting it on to other people, but just enjoy exactly my particular recipe. I
can't see anybody that I would say is pure evil.
I would agree. Nothing is pure anything in the relative field. Everything is a mixed
bag with varying proportions.
I feel this that we are is unharmed and this that we are is moving us in what we consider
positive.
I think it's probably the opposite that wherever a particular group is moving, they're going
to feel like that's positive.
So if we happen to be on some other timeline where it was going to totally dissolve into
chaos, to us that would feel like positive because wherever we're being pulled to, whatever
draws us at the deepest level, whatever's served by our deepest creativity and connection,
that is what's going to feel positive and that is what we're all being moved towards
is this birthing of life and love and more manifest connection.
Yeah, and that reminds me of a thought that I was having while listening to your books,
which is that people say, "Everybody does the best they can."
And is that really true?
And when I think about it, I think, yeah, it is actually.
Even if they appear to be doing something really creepy,
it's the best they can do,
given their particular state of development
and wisdom and evolution and so on.
Does that relate to what you were just saying?
- Yeah, that's actually, I have a saying better than that.
Like, 'cause that includes a literal resignation.
what's the best they can do.
I'm saying, no, they're doing exactly
what they're designed to do
so that I can be confronted
in the things that I need to let go of.
They could be a very advanced soul
that's doing that to bring grace to my life
so I can let go of some way that I'm stuck,
I've become ossified in some area.
Everybody's doing exactly what they're supposed to do,
what they're designed to do,
what they are destined to do.
this harmony, this fabric, it can't go wrong.
Yeah, sounds good.
And I agree with you.
I can see your perspective and agree with it from part of me.
But then when I think of Dylan Roof shooting up all the people in that church in
Charleston, or the kid who went in and shot all the kids in the Sandy Hook
elementary school, it's tough to say that's what they're supposed to do.
But I can see the perspective from which you're saying that.
There's levels of awareness, right?
So yeah.
There's a part of us that jumps in and says,
"What can we do to make that not happen again?"
And that's the goodness in us,
that's the truth in us, of course.
We are very dynamic because we are the infinite
moving in constantly.
So of course, there's gonna be this response,
and that's the universe too.
But at the same time, we don't have to regret
what has already happened if we look at it
from the highest or deepest, whatever you wanna say.
Because at that point, we are unharmable.
And that is not a philosophy.
I have zero belief.
Pretty much about anything.
If I find a belief, I kill the belief.
Basically, don't have any belief.
It's just been a discovery that everything
that looked like hurt in my life went for good.
And I just test that with other people.
That is the fundamental.
And it can only be an experience.
It cannot be a theory.
It's a horrible theory because it gets misused.
And no, you cannot have it as a theory.
It has to be as a lived experience that is dynamic with all of the creativity that is also what we are.
I just discovered that my wife, Irene, who is in the hospital, has been doing her job of fielding questions that have come in because she has a laptop up there.
So she sent me a couple of questions which I'm going to ask you from people.
This one is from Eamon Kelly in Dublin, Ireland.
He said, "I would like to know what Lisa thinks
about how this spiritual awareness applies to climate change."
- I did ask specifically about that.
And I was shown in a vision, two dead branches,
and what we are, the energy of the universe,
put them together and immediately turn them into a tree.
What it looks like we've done to the earth
is just our interpretation.
But obviously there's a movement within us to be kinder to the earth.
That is what we are called to do.
That is what this dynamic universe is doing through us.
And there's no need to be hopeless.
No need to be hopeless.
What we are has the possibility to flip everything in any moment that it becomes necessary.
So there is the opportunity to just let the creativity and connection, the love of nature
have more and more fruitful expression.
We don't have to fight anything unless that's what's calling to be a warrior.
Great.
That there's no have to nothing that we have to fight.
It, it is the right thing actually in going towards where we are supposed to go.
Yeah.
Different people have different roles to play.
Trump is doing everything he can to stop wind and solar now and has
withdrawn from the Paris climate accord.
And there are people who have legal skills and various other types of authority who
will hopefully counteract that because that's going to have severe consequences.
But how much can I do?
Or you?
I am a chemical engineer.
Right.
I will just say that some of the things that have been done in that idea that we
were helping the climate have not, they've actually made things worse.
Whenever we're sticking our fingers in from that kind of a place, we're often
not doing as well as we think. To trust that you even think you know so and so definitely
has the solution, so and so definitely doesn't. I would even hold that lightly. Be in love
with nature, do the best that you know, but any dogma about what's the best for the earth
has to be held lightly.
Certain solutions are mixed blessings because, for instance, making batteries for electric
cars requires extracting precious metals and some African nations and other places are having
their environment devastated by the mining and it's a lousy job to have mining this stuff
on three dollars a day or whatever.
So a lot of these things are, but maybe as we evolve, maybe we'll come up with more and
more benign solutions that aren't so mixed.
will find ways of creating energy sources that aren't deleterious in their manufacture to
the environment that they're trying to help.
Supposedly, if we had followed the models that were created in the 70s and then totally
revamped in the 90s and revamped again in the early 2000s, we're living in an earth
that shouldn't exist.
It shouldn't look like this.
It was supposed to look totally different.
So I would not trust any of the models.
I would trust just loving the earth.
Yeah.
Okay.
I won't hammer on that one too much.
Loving the earth, but also taking practical steps with this little
harm as possible to ensure it's it's wellbeing and nature.
Because that's our nature.
Yeah.
So we're called to, it doesn't have to be a should or a
don't, it's what we are.
It's doing the best we can.
Yes.
It's what we are.
Yeah.
But not drill baby drill because like there's no tomorrow in my opinion.
Cause there is a tomorrow and the temperature is rising and the Thwaites
glacier in Antarctica is losing its foothold on the continent and could go
into the ocean and raise sea levels by 10 meters.
That one's just a bunch of beliefs that there are people who have evidence
to other types of interpretations.
Yeah.
Although there is such a as science as you're a scientist of sorts.
And there is data and some of the data has very strong consensus.
What's the plural of consensus?
Consensi.
Supporting it.
And so the whole thing of everyone is entitled to their own opinion is all well
and good, but we came up with the scientific method.
I heard a great quote.
I like this one.
It's from Aldous Huxley.
He said that the greatest contribution of the scientific revolution was the
development of the scientific method itself and the concept of the working
hypothesis because it got us away from believing things without any
substantiation. If we're going to form a belief we have to be able to pony up and
provide evidence supporting it and science works by virtue of consensus.
That is a dogma that I see there are elements that are true and there's
elements even in that that I couldn't say resonate with what we are.
Like what?
There was a time, the Taoists for example, they were able to map on the face different
spots that correlated with areas in the body.
Now modern medicine is discovering the same thing.
They can do thermographic analysis of the face and lo and behold it's there.
Now how did the Taoists find that?
It was not by the scientific method.
They found it because they were listening very intently, internally to their system
and discovering the innate wisdom of their system and they discovered it.
Now when you stop that kind of listening and you go to the scientific method is really
good at finding generalities and it's terrible at finding the specifics of individual uniqueness.
So then you have to, okay, let's use the scientific method differently.
We're going to narrow down our populations and we're going to try to include more and
more causes because if we just focus on 10, that's enough.
It turns out we have to focus on 200.
So the scientific method might eventually get us there, but the listening got us there
already.
I'm not against the scientific method, but I'm just saying it has some limitations.
We're trying to hone it and get it to be better.
But this inner listening got us there pretty fast, so I'm not going to discard that either.
And some people really do have a way of listening to their body and their body will tell them,
I need this substance, I don't need this substance, and later the scientific method will eventually
prove it.
But I'm not going to tell them no, because if they have learned to listen to their body,
they got there faster than the scientific method.
I can't tell them the scientific method says you need this substance in your body because
maybe they don't and maybe the scientific method will validate that far into the future.
Well I agree with everything you just said.
As I said my wife is in the hospital right now and I was there the other day and this
pharmacist Nazi came in and said I want to know everything you brought with you here.
And so I said we have some vitamin C, we have some vitamin D, these few things.
And she was just taking notes.
I thought, oh, that's nice.
She wants to know what Irene is taking.
And she said, we're going to have to either lock all those up or you're
going to have to take them home with you because we can't let you take
anything that you have brought yourself.
So after she left the room, we just hid the stuff.
Obviously science gave us the atomic bomb.
Science has given us all kinds of things that have destroyed the environment
and petroleum refinement and many other things, but science was a necessary
corrective to the Middle Ages in which you could be burned at the stake for
suggesting that the stars might be other suns like our own and might even have
planets around them. Someone was burned at the stake for suggesting that and all
kinds of nutty ideas were propagated and enforced and so the whole idea of the
working hypothesis where you really have to show a consensus of evidence for your
hypotheses has been a pretty good system but as you say the whole thing of
objective means of gaining knowledge has predominated because we have, for the most part, lost the
subjective means of gaining knowledge, intuitive, inner vision kind of knowledge. And that's,
I think, why science has been such a mixed blessing and has done so much harm. And the
technologies that science has spawned, I think what we don't want to throw that out, but
We need to counterbalance it with a commensurate degree of inner development.
And so then the powerful tools of science will no longer be like guns in the hands of children.
They'll be able to be used wisely in conjunction with inner wisdom.
Yeah, and this was a lot of mind stuff.
And I just want to bring it back to present moment.
There's an inner wisdom and I trust each person for their path.
I don't want any outside authority, but as they are, they're doing exactly what they're
supposed to do.
And the idea that there's an outside authority who has figured it out, I feel like this is
moving towards the end of that, but even if I'm wrong, I could be totally wrong, what
we are is unharmable.
And what we are is going to thrive through each of these stages.
So there's not a need to figure it out. There's just going to be discovery and discovery.
Yeah. Sure, what we are is unharmable. As the Gita puts it, "Know that to be indeed
indestructible by which all this is pervaded. None can work the destruction of this immutable
being." And that's fine for being. But individual beings have varying degrees of wisdom. And
as Lao Tzu and the Tao Te Ching and other such traditional teachings say, the degree to which
you need laws and societal controls like that is proportional to the degree to which people
are in tune with the Tao or not. A society in which being in tune with the Tao or the
norm wouldn't hardly need any laws or much government. Everything would just be hunky
Dory spontaneously, but a society which is very much out of tune with that needs some laws
because otherwise you have people who are way out of tune with the Tao doing whatever
they please and creating problems for everyone.
And then my book, A Non-Principled Life, every principle can be held lightly, even that one.
Maybe it's going to be the opposite, that you don't wait for the entombment to show
up and then release the laws, could end up that we release the laws and then that creates
the tomb into flourish.
I don't even know, I can't hold any particular concept as a definite.
So we can get rid of all the speed limits and the stop lights and all that stuff and
let people just work it out and drive however they want.
It might happen that way, I really don't know how it's going to happen.
I'm just saying that I'm not attached to it happening in one order or the other order.
It feels like the life moving in us is orchestrating this dance that we're going through and it's
the pendulum swinging and the letting go and the tightening in and letting go and tightening
in.
It feels like this dance is perfect, really.
I'm not taking sides in that.
Okay, next question.
This is from Jamie Mac, somewhere in the US.
I'm curious what your thoughts are about the role or selection of content in your life.
put the word content in quotes. For example, are you able to watch our current political
situation unfold without angst? And what are your thoughts about the impact TV, movies,
news have on our lives? We might also throw social media in there.
Yes, that's a great question. I am totally at peace with everything happening politically,
everything. It just feels like what we are is not being harmed. Like I said, I know
everything negative that's happened to me has brought forth an opportunity to
discover, "Oh my gosh, I'm stronger than I knew. I'm more self-sufficient than I
knew. I have more support than I knew. I'm more courageous than I knew." It doesn't
matter what it was. I don't have any angst for anybody going through anything.
That doesn't mean that I don't participate in the things that I think are helping.
I have a lot of participation, but I don't have any angst about it.
I don't have any resistance about it.
It does feel like it's a dance.
It's perfectly choreographed because I have explored every single one of those in myself
and I'm not afraid of anything I see in myself.
time that I become more selfish or any time that I become more manipulative, somehow the
universe works even that out. Now, what amount of time do I give to that? That's something
totally different. I try to get just a little bit of information so I can know approximately
what's happening. No information comes that says what is happening. It always comes through
an interpretation and a filter of story and a filter of what would be better. I don't
spend a lot of time following updates and getting, because I don't know, to me it's
the deepest moves, the ultimate trajectory, the day by day is okay. I don't see how that's
furthering anything for me. I'm very busy and connected creatively every day with the
people I'm with. So that to me just feels like where my energy is drawn. Other people could
be totally different. Interestingly, a friend of mine who was testing the pH of her urine,
who knows that everybody would validate that, but she was finding that the healthy things,
eating more fruits and vegetables and blah blah blah, caused improvements. But what actually
caused much greater improvement was not watching the scary movies that you pick to watch.
Yeah, I agree with that.
I really have let go of being concerned and stressed.
So we have a leak in our house right now and a couple months ago my husband did something
that resulted in this leak of this gummy fluid in our camper that can never be fully dried.
And until there's a motivation to do anything about either one of those, I've decided I can
live with leaks. I'm not going to stress. I can live with somebody not showing up at the
time we said they were going to show up because I don't need the stress. I know there's an
ultimate benevolence. So I don't find that news furthers that for me.
You discussed urine and leaks in consecutive paragraphs. The thing about not watching scary
movies, there is some biblical quote on this, but I forget what it is, but it's not only
what we eat in terms of food but what we take into all of our senses that has a whole effect
on our mind-body system. And you could eat the purest diet and probably you wouldn't
find too many people who ate really pure diets but loved watching slasher movies all the time.
Nonetheless, in principle, we can be very pure in one channel but if we're loading ourselves
up with impurities in other channels it's going to counteract what we're doing with
our pure diet or whatever.
Yeah. Oh, one more thing about politics. I have good friends on both sides of the spectrum.
All ends of the spectrum, actually. And I like to get emails from them and see what they're
concerned about and what they see as positives from what they would like to see improved in
the world. And I actually do see positives coming on every front. Really, I'm not upset
by whoever takes position because I can see, "Oh, okay, sounds like this group might bring
in this and I would like that. Oh, sounds like this group might bring in that, I would like
that. Really, I'm without care."
I like Bill Maher and Sam Harris and people like that who do something very similar. They
just speak their mind and if it happens to be a right-wing thing, they'll say it. And
even if they get a lot of flack and lose some viewers, if it's a left-wing thing, they'll
say it and they just because nothing is perfect.
Even a broken clock tells the correct time twice a day.
That's right.
Yeah.
Do you vote?
I vote if I think that it's going to be a positive difference making the vote.
For the US, I would like to see a third party eventually.
That seems like it might be helpful.
So if I can do things that help that happen, that tends to be where I move.
But you know, it can change.
Yeah.
Jill Stein gave us George W. Bush and Donald Trump.
We won't go into this, but there are political systems in places like Australia, I forget
what they call it, but they have some whole system that is much more sensible than just
the either or choice that we have here.
But again.
Ranked choice voting or something it's called.
Yeah, I've heard of other methods.
But really, to me, politics feels like a very thin veneer.
Yeah.
It really feels like the biggest movement is what's not covered by the media.
Oh, you're right. Of course.
Yes. This movement of consciousness has so much momentum.
It is a tidal wave that is irresistible.
And all the other stuff is just splashes coming off of this wave.
Yeah. Poly means many and ticks are blood-sucking insects.
insects. And as Mark Twain put it, politicians and diapers should be changed often and for
the same reason.
And I love the politicians. They're not doing the role I would like, but they're holding
a position where they get so much hate sent towards them, both sides. What a courageous
position.
It's a tough job, yeah.
Yeah, I just try to be a loving force towards them. They've got waves of hate they're constantly
dealing with.
Yeah, you gotta have a bit of a thick skin.
Is there anything you feel like you would like to say
that we haven't said, or anything you wanna say in closing?
The thing I just want to constantly marinate in
is this that we are is unharmable and is benevolent.
There's just only exuberance and delight
to experience each thing.
And if we're not experiencing that, that's fine.
And that's our gift back.
Our gift back is this is what sorrow tastes like.
And when we're tired of giving that gift back, there's an avenue that we can tap back into
the joy and the delight.
So it doesn't matter which one we're doing, but if we want to give back the joy and the
delight, it's available.
And that's the processes I discuss in both my books.
Just really letting go of the ideas we think about what we should be or what the world
to be and noticing what we are.
The richness that we are is so much bigger than what we're usually noticing.
Great.
Okay, I'll leave it at that.
That's very profound and beautiful and I appreciate it.
It's been nice spending time with you.
Yeah, you too, Rick.
Thank you so much.
You've just been quite generous with your attention and your interest and your wisdom.
Thank you.
Yeah, and I hope people don't feel like I was giving you a hard time.
Like I said to you before we even started recording,
I like to make these like a conversation.
And if you're having a conversation with somebody in your living room,
you might say, "I don't agree with that," or "What do you think about this?"
And you might get a little bit animated without being disrespectful
or disapproving of your friend.
Exactly. I feel completely honored and I love the opportunity to be able to challenge
every single sacred cow. I think the more that we don't hold ideas and we just tune into
what we are, the more we discover, at least for me, the more I discover that there's an
unharmability and the blight and benevolence.
Yeah. Challenge good. Yeah, I agree with challenging. Everything should be susceptible to challenge,
But that doesn't mean that everything is equally valid or invalid.
Things stand on their own merit or fall for lack of it.
And you just have to be discerning and discriminating about many things,
including spiritual teachers for that matter, who are not all equally meritorious or ethical.
But I can only make that choice for myself.
Exactly.
Okay, so good. Thank you very much. And thanks for those who've been listening or watching.
And we'll see you for the next one.
Yeah, big hug.
Big hugs to everybody.
Thank you.
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