[Music]
Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump.
My name is Rick Archer. Buddha at the Gas Pump is an ongoing series of conversations with
spiritually awakening people. I've done over 700 of them now, and if this is new to you
and you'd like to check out previous ones, go to bathgap.com, B-A-T-G-A-P, and look under
the interviews menu. I think we're going to still have that menu. We're redesigning the
website, but you'll be able to find it. We're redesigning it so it'll be even easier to
find things and look nicer. This program is made possible through the support of
appreciative listeners and viewers, so if you appreciate it and would like to help
support it, there are PayPal buttons on every page of the site and a page that
offers alternatives to PayPal. I haven't mentioned this lately, but we have a
bunch of volunteers doing different things, and if you'd like to volunteer in
some way, get in touch. One of the things is proofreading transcripts. Some people
really enjoy doing that and I haven't mentioned this lately so it's slacked
off a little bit but we still have some yet to proofread. And another thing is we
have this AI chatbot called the Backgap Bot which I don't know about over 4,000
people have used it so far and five or six hundred people use it per week and
And it's loaded with tens of thousands, over a hundred thousand documents of a bat-gap nature, spiritual and philosophical stuff, as well as 1700 of the world's sacred texts.
So, you could call it a vertical bot, meaning it's a specialist in this kind of content, as opposed to a horizontal bot like ChatGPT, which gobbles up everything on the internet,
and it's kind of diluted if you really want to ask spiritual or philosophical questions.
So you're actually going to get better results for those kind of questions with this than
you would with a commercial bot.
And so there's a menu item for this on batgap.com.
It's called the BatGapBot.
Okay, my guest today is Georgette Starr.
Georgette is an intuitive Soulstream life coach, which she will explain, and mentor with over
30 years of experience dedicated to empowering adults and youth to live soul-embodied, joyful
and purposeful lives.
Her deep quest for self-realization and sharing this journey with others inspired her to found
the Life Blessing Institute, LBI, a transformational learning community designed to guide individuals
on the journey of spiritual awakening, actualization of their soul's agenda, and human potential.
Through LBI, Georgette developed a variety of programs, including Maiden, Spirit, and Peace
Warriors youth programs, individual and community rites of passage celebrations, and the Soul
Stream Method practitioner training.
Currently practicing as a Soul Stream and Life Coach and Mentor, Georgette is also working
on a documentary film titled "The Woman's Rite."
The film examines the challenges of ageism faced by women and explores how these limitations
can be transformed through spiritual awakening, creative expression, and conscious rites of
passage. It highlights the opportunity for women to step into empowered, vibrant, and
respected elderhood, offering their wisdom, creativity, light, and love to a world that
deeply needs their contributions.
There will be a link on Georgette's Backgap page, not only to her website, but also to
that film, so you can watch a trailer or a promo of it.
Georgette holds a master's degree from the Naropa Institute and a doctorate of ministry
from the University of Creation Spirituality, which was founded by Matthew Fox, who has been
on BatGap.
In addition to her professional work, she cherishes being a mom, a grandmother, artist, forest
dweller, and daughter of Mother Earth.
Okay, Georgette, you were wondering, like, what inspired us to invite you to be interviewed
on BatGap.
Well, it seems like we've known you for a long time.
I met you in person at one of the S.A.N.D. conferences and you brought me a really lovely
goodie bag.
I forget all the things that were in it, but there were probably some chocolates and some
cards and some useful, interesting things.
And that was really sweet.
No one's ever brought me a goodie bag at a S.A.N.D. conference, so you're unique in that
respect.
You and Irene have struck up a friendship and been corresponding for years, so you're just
Kind of like an old friend, and we always had it in the back of our minds that one of these
days we would interview you, and I guess this is a good time because you're working on this
film, this is a really important thing, and we wanted to help you boost support for that
and bring awareness to it.
Kristi Wow, thank you so much, Rick.
I'm so honored to be here with you today, and you know, I want to share with you and
Irene, you know, I've heard the analogy of like the spiritual path of awakening, to be
somewhat like climbing a mountain. And at the bottom of the mountain, there's cities and
villages and there's just people everywhere that you can talk to about what you're experiencing
and find some support and communion. And then the farther up the mountain, the more rarefied
the air and people kind of drop off because it gets a little harder, a little more challenging.
And then, you know, there's these peaceful plateaus where you find a whole village up
there way up high where it's like a comfortable place and everybody's meditating together and
It's wonderful, but there's still this calling to continue and there's this sense of being eventually kind of being
somewhat alone on the journey because there aren't that many people that one can actually share some of the
embodied experiences that are very uncommon and
So I remember especially after what I would consider like the major shift for me in my sense of self and reality
listening to these interviews over and over and over all day long for days and weeks and months
because it was so helpful for me to hear other people share their story.
- Back gap interviews or what?
- Yeah, back gap interviews.
- Oh, great.
- Yeah, I can't even remember how many.
- Yeah.
- But there was something so stabilizing about, first of all,
understanding that every human being is so unique and every path is unique.
And that was comforting to me as the air became more rarefied and there were less people that I could share my experience with or
find community with
So it's been a lifesaver to me and i'm just so appreciative of both of you
For your generous act of service that you just show up for over and over and over again
Well, thanks. There's this uh old bengali saying
if no one comes on your call, then go ahead alone. But fact of the matter is, we're not alone because
there are a lot of people around the world these days who are into this kind of thing,
on this kind of journey. And one of the reasons I actually started Bed Gap was I was in this little
meeting group here in Fairfield, Iowa. We'd meet once a week and have these discussions and some
people had had profound spiritual awakenings, but when they would tell friends about it,
friends would be skeptical. They'd say, "Oh, come on, I've known you for years, you're just Joe
Schmo, you know, this couldn't happen to you or somebody like you." And so, I thought, "Oh,
I'm going to start interviewing these people and demonstrate to a wider audience that this happens
to and can happen to ordinary people," which is the tagline of Batgap, "Conversations with Ordinary
Spiritually Awakening People." And we actually sometimes intentionally avoid interviewing some
some of the more famous people, although we also interviewed them, but we are happy to
interview housewives and truck drivers and just ordinary people who have had a spiritual
awakening just to make it clear that it is not the exclusive right of, you know, somebody
who floats two feet off the ground or wears white robes or anything like that. It can
happen to anybody. It's everyone's birthright.
Yeah, and it's rare that someone kind of Eckhart Tolle's right like they just have these bursts of complete realization and
For me the journey of awakening has been more like, you know, they talked about the thousand petal lotus
So I think the petals are infinite
There's just another opening and another opening and every opening. There's also another challenge - yeah
And so it's like a never-ending
Unfolding process that's one of my main themes
>> That it never ends, the journey never ends. Later on, I'll be talking about my mom because
she was such an incredible teacher and guide and example in many ways, including becoming a
conscious elder. But she was determined to use this incarnation to her very last breath to process
anything that is not of pure light and love. So anything that she would come up, any fear,
any anger, any reaction pattern to whatever was happening. Even when she was interacting in her
assisted living care center and dealing with lots of challenging things, she just used it all as an
opportunity to evolve. Rick That's great. I guess we could say that everything is an opportunity to
evolve, even though sometimes things can be very challenging, obviously, and I don't want to make
light of that. I just feel like the whole universe is one giant evolution machine, and there's nothing
that is designed to prevent you from evolving, it's all designed to help you evolve.
Jennifer Yes, and on the process, there's a dissolving
of the self that we once knew. During the dissolving phases of the awakening process,
like, we really need the support of each other and spiritual communion and connection to stabilize and
to function in this world and fulfill our destiny path in terms of how we're here to contribute
to the evolution of not just our own, but the collective.
Pete Yeah. This thing of ever evolving,
a quote I've mentioned many times on this show is from St. Teresa of Avila. She said,
"It appears that God himself is on the journey." So, you know, no matter how high up you are,
so to speak, there's a next horizon. There's evolution yet to undergo.
Julie Absolutely. I wanted to also just
acknowledge that on the journey to get to this moment, which is obviously a whole lifetime,
but specifically to this interview, I had to fill out some paperwork, right? To, you know, information.
Pete: Information forms.
Kirsten: I was, yeah, I had to pick a category and I was looking at that, like, how do you pick a
category? And then the whole problem of language. Everything I say I know is not actually true.
Like, the words never can convey. And so, I just wanted to acknowledge that we have to make
concessions for the purpose of communication, but that was a challenge. So, eventually I
ended up on Awakening Process Facilitator, but even that doesn't sound true, but I'll
take it for now. But when I really sat with, if I could choose a category, there would be
no one else in that category, or maybe there would be, but it would be somewhat something
like bowing down like a servant to the mystery.
Rick>> That's nice. Yeah, the reason we have categories is, you know, we have a categorical
index on Bathgap and, you know, there's Buddhism and Hinduism and Judaism and psychedelics and
therapists and creative artists and all kinds of different things. Obviously, a person could
be in many categories. In fact, we did have people in three categories up until last year,
but times 700, that's over 2,000 listings on the page. It wasn't that helpful. So Irene
went through the whole thing and tried to narrow them down to one category, and then I emailed
everybody I had interviewed and said, "We had to choose just one, and would you like
to change it? Let us know."
- I know, I was thinking, like, how could I, you know, if I could pick one category,
okay, I am a teacher, I mean, that is a function, and there is spirituality embedded in what
I teach, but to claim the title of spiritual teacher, that seems, at least for me, like
bowing down to the mystery that nobody knows the deeper truth of ultimate reality.
Pete There's a great line toward the end of the Rig Veda,
a rough paraphrase, something like, "From whence did this creation come?" He said, "The gods don't
know because they were subsequent to creation." Perhaps Brahman or the highest god knows, or maybe
he doesn't know. And if he doesn't know, maybe nobody knows. So, even the Rig Veda is saying this.
>>Rick: Yeah, that's cool. Well, I think it's a good attitude to have, don't you? Not to
be cocksure of our beliefs and opinions and convictions and so on.
>>Kate: Yeah, I like that symbol. I think it's called the orzo.
>>Rick: Yeah, the snake biting its tail?
>>Kate: Well, it's an open circle.
>>Rick: Right. Oh yeah, the Zen thing with the brush stroke, yeah.
>>Kate: I really love that symbol because it's like an invitation to always know there's
never a completion. It's always open to the mystery and open to, as we talked a little
bit before we started our conversation recorded today, around the scientific method of just
always looking at, I think you described it as everything is a working hypothesis.
David That's right.
Kirsten And the best of our knowledge are filtered
through our most recent up-to-date conditioning that we're looking through.
David Some spiritual teacher, might have been Nisargadatta,
I forget who said, "The bad news is you're always going to be in free fall, and the good
news is there's no ground.
You're never going to go splat."
[Laughter]
Kim: That's so good!
I want to start you.
Yeah, I know.
I've been talking to a lot of people about this topic of aging into saging or from role
to soul or transitioning as a human being into an elder season or cycle of life, and that
concept of befriending the unknown.
We're always in it, but we just don't realize that we have lots of coping mechanisms to recognize
how much we don't know.
And wisdom often, it's like after so much life practice of surrendering into the unknown,
we get better at it.
It gets easier to trust that free fall, even though there's always going to be a biological
response in the body to something that feels uncertain.
I think fundamentalism of any sort is probably a reaction to the uncertainty and fear of the
unknown.
You know, you want certainty, and so you grasp onto something that somebody has told you,
and then as soon as you grasp onto some limited perspective and make it absolute, it clashes
with every other perspective.
So everybody else is wrong now, and I've got the best perspective here.
They're all going to hell.
I'm going to the special heaven.
But it's obviously a very tenuous or indefensible position because it's not ultimate.
And so, it's constantly going to be challenged.
But if you take a God's eye view, what would God's perspective be?
It would incorporate all perspectives.
Kirsten Yeah.
Well, in the mapping system that my mom taught me that I'll share later, there's a perspective
that looks at all these different realms of human development, and one of them is represented
geometrically by the square or the number four, and that sense of becoming really stagnant
within a structure, there's a certain point in the beginning where it can be helpful as
a building block, but then when it becomes stagnant, we fall inside the square, and then
we're just looking at the walls, and there's no fresh air, there's no progress.
- Yeah, I had a spiritual teacher who outlined what he called the fundamentals of progress,
And they were stability, adaptability, integration, purification, and growth.
And some of those qualities are kind of opposed to one another, like stability and adaptability.
If something is stable, how can it change?
How can it adapt?
But then there's integration.
Perhaps its stability and adaptability can be integrated with one another.
And then purification, you know, you need to continually purify the mirror or the vehicle
through which this is experienced, and then all of that results in growth.
I love that. I mean, when we talk about having to have concessions for language, it's like,
language is so binary, right? It's like this or that, and that's not reality. So, all of those
things can be simultaneously true and work together as an integrated whole. And old systems eventually
do have to crack open though, in order for transformation and evolution to happen.
Rick Yeah, speaking of things can be simultaneously
true, Nisargadatta again said that the ability to appreciate paradox and ambiguity is a sign
of spiritual maturity.
Julie Yes, absolutely.
I feel that.
Rick Which means, paradox, things can be paradoxically
opposed or incompatible with one another, but both can be true.
Like search is a candy mint, search is a breath mint, that kind of thing, the search paradox.
>> Yes, I heard of a t-shirt that was like a pair of ducks.
[Laughter]
>> The paradox.
>> Yeah, I used to know two doctors that practiced together and they were also meditators. I used to
call them the divine paradox.
>> That's great. Yeah, you know, another sign of wisdom developing, right, is like the capacity
to be able to withstand the tension of being in the center of the polarity or the duality
and knowing that both can be part of the same wholeness in the center.
>> What do you think about what we're just talking about in light of what's happening
in society today in which there seems to be greater polarity than perhaps in our nation's history and
you know the tensions that that causes and how people seem to be seeing things from such
diametrically opposed perspectives? I mean I think that anything that happens in society
is symptomatic of something happening at a deeper level. So, what do you think this signifies?
Katie Well, once again, I'm bowing to the mystery
here because it's beyond human comprehension, but I do believe there's like these compensatory
counter-movements on the journey of evolution that you can only see from big, vast cycles of time,
and there's something, in a sense, talking about the old structures, like they have to
get to the breaking point before a new possibility can come in. You know, I was reflecting upon
why has my journey somewhat emphasized the sacred feminine as being that principle and humanity as
being so important to strengthen. And I have always been drawn to the Baha'i metaphor of
humanity as the great bird. The Baha'i metaphor describes one wing as being the masculine and
one wing being the feminine for men and women. And I don't see it quite so literally. I think of more
like this vast cosmic bird flying through the universe and the masculine side, which is not
a gender, it's one side of the polarity, right? It's the yang energy and Taoism. It's just been
more strengthened. So, that wing is stronger than the feminine side, and so the bird is just
spiraling out of control. And that's kind of where we are right now. There's some upsurges of effort,
right, with all these people on the path of spiritual awakening to connect to those more
internal ways of connecting to self and others and compassion and empathy and all of that.
we just haven't reached that point where we're coming back into some kind of balance.
Pete Yeah, some ancient traditions and even modern
prognosticators feel like, you know, we really have to go through a almost catastrophic collapse of
social structures and order and society in order to rise to a new, kind of a more enlightened world.
Do you view it that way or do you think we can transition without too much cataclysm?
I do have a hopeful, optimistic focus. I do believe in the soul of humanity as being
on the journey to wholeness and to more balance. I know it's sketchy and challenging,
and right now we just happen to be in one of those really tense moments politically, right,
with the elections coming up and we feel all of that tension. It reminds me a lot of the contraction
process of the birthing, you know, the labor process where there's these incredible moments
of tension and it's painful and then eventually there's a release and a relaxation and something
can open up. So I tend to feel more like we're in that birthing process. The soul of humanity is in
of labor process, and that there's enough God-force in awakened humans to help us move ultimately
to something better. I don't know what it's going to look like along the way, though,
right now. It certainly isn't very pretty.
Rick Yeah. So, you're thinking maybe we won't need
a cesarean. The birth is going to go successfully. Well, as you say, people will be watching
this for years and they'll look back and they'll know what actually happened, but you and I
at this point are like, "Oh my God, what's going to happen?"
I know. You know, something I just thought was interesting, I'm going to talk later about
my mom and her teachings in the Nine Pathways mapping system, but I took a look at the charts
of the two candidates.
Interesting, okay. The numerology charts.
Yes. Just a real brief look, but it was really fascinating to me just looking at Kamala's
middle name. Do you know what her middle name is?
No, I know her first name means "Lotus." In fact, I have a friend who has a t-shirt that says "Lotus for POTUS."
Well, her middle name is "Davy."
Oh, Davy. I heard that. Which means "Goddess."
Just saying. There's little signs, little sparks of life coming up in different places, in different ways, and I don't know what it all means, but I can't help but notice.
I also know that it doesn't help the world for us to dwell on what is beyond our control.
What helps the world, how we can contribute to the creation of a more balanced world,
a healthier planet and human population is to do what we came here to do, which is exactly
what you're doing.
You and Irene and all of your team, you're choosing to use your creative life force to
contribute.
I love that and I also really appreciate that you're a little farther down the road in your
age.
Pete: 75, just turned 75 a couple weeks ago.
Kirsten: Yeah, so you didn't hit the wall of it's time to retire.
Pete: Bit boring.
Kirsten: Many people do.
It's kind of baked in, unless for someone like yourself who's done a lot of spiritual
practice, that conditioning comes up and it just turns something off.
And then we stop feeling like we have what it takes to contribute.
We want to keep the lie alive.
I've done maybe 25 years of my life doing stuff that had no intrinsic meaning to me.
It was just ways to earn money.
But then at least another 30 years or so has been teaching meditation or doing spiritual
stuff which was meaningful to me, or BATGAP which is meaningful, and it doesn't feel like
work at all.
Irene has to say, "Rick, it's Sunday.
Get away from the computer.
Stop working.
something else. I think, "What working? This isn't working. This is like exciting. This
is fun."
That's just a real example or role model, right? Of like tapping into what, where the
world's need and our personal joy can meet. Our personal sense of fulfillment. And that's
going to be really unique for everyone. And not everyone is going to have like an external
sense of big purpose, but it will be small, in small ways every day. And the way they
they show up and shine, and I think that's what we most need right now, to make it through
these tumultuous times, is to stay focused on where the light is, where we can bring
the light and be the light.
Rick Yeah, I'm reminded of Joseph Campbell saying,
"Follow your bliss."
I don't think he meant, "If it feels good, do it," which is what we went by in the
60s.
It's more like, bliss is actually different than happiness or sensory gratification.
a subtler value. And I think that the more in tune with the force of evolution we are,
the more bliss tends to resonate in our experience. Even if we're doing something that externally
might not seem like a spiritual occupation or something, one can take the long view and
be patient. Someone said, "All will be well in the end, and if all is not well, it's not
the end."
I was in the grocery store the other day and I saw this quintessential elderly woman who
was decked out.
She had her little suit on, she had her makeup, she had her hair perfectly, and she came up
to me and she said, "Excuse me, excuse me."
She was very direct.
She said, "How old are you?"
I said, "I'm 66."
And she said, "Well, I really like your coat and I love your braid.
Don't ever stop putting your hair in a braid."
And I'm like, "Okay."
And then she says, "I have made it my life purpose to show up wherever I am every day
and say a good word to somebody."
Rick: Oh, how nice.
That's so sweet.
Patti: Yeah.
And that was her way.
That was her bliss.
Rick: That's beautiful.
Yeah.
Patti: And sometimes, I don't know about you, Rick, because you're in a different phase,
but sometimes I know that I'm called to do something that isn't easy.
So there's bliss in knowing I'm aligned with a calling and it's divine.
I know that, but what I have to go through to do it isn't pleasant, it's a challenge.
You remember Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane saying, "If it's possible, let this cup pass
from me."
And then after a while, He said, "All right, they will be done, whatever."
It wasn't going to be easy, but I guess He resigned Himself to that fate being in kind
of the divine order of things.
Yeah, and the awakening process isn't always easy.
And actually the aging process isn't always easy, especially in a world that is so programmed
towards anti-aging.
There's trailblazers out there who are giving us a new vision of possibility for what that
can look like, and I want to be a part of that.
Well, this would be a good segue to talking about the Women's Right Documentary Project
that you're working on.
Let's talk about the evolutionary value of, let's say, the last quarter of one's life.
people might think, "Well, it's all over. I'm not going to have the kind of fun I used to have,"
you know, or anything. "I'm too old for that." But this could be the best time of one's life,
couldn't it? - Oh, absolutely. You know, I think of like a rose that its petals are just glorious
in its midlife, and then all the juice and the medicine goes into the hip, into the rose hip.
And so, it's actually our most potent time because we've had all of these life experiences,
and we process through so much and we have, if we have been processing through things, we do have
some wisdom and the capacity to be a steady state of resilience and presence for those who are more
in the turbulence of their younger years and their awakening process. You know, my perspective is it's
actually our time of ultimate power and our culture doesn't teach that, but there are cultures who do.
do and have and what might it look like if every child from the time they were born were given
this impression through the media, through images, through stories, that the elder phase
of their life is going to be a time of incredible well-being and vitality and opportunities
because they will have more time.
Hopefully, they'll have more time and more resources, they'll have more space because
they've done a lifetime, to be able to become mentors, conscious mentors, to show up in
new ways.
You know, I think of my mom again as an example of someone who even up to when she could no
longer be, like she worked until she was 78 in the marketplace as a physical therapist
and she continued her spiritual practice of awakening and she became rather luminous.
And when she wasn't able to physically contribute in that way, she started collecting adult
godchildren.
Anyone that she felt was missing, she called it the mother to the motherless, missing that
really focused support and spiritual support.
And even though she couldn't physically help them, she could talk with them and pray with
them and that was her form of being able to contribute.
she did that for people just talking on the phone all the way till her last week of her life.
Rick That's great. I'm thinking it's more
blessed to give than to receive, but perhaps more blessed because it's actually more enjoyable if
you can do something like what your mother was doing. Being on the giving end of a situation
like that is very gratifying and evolutionary. You become a conduit for the force of evolution
actually when you step into a role that is conducive to people's evolution.
Yeah, absolutely. And also skills. She had some skills and they became very fine-tuned.
We all have that. We all have that ability. But not everyone becomes wise. Some people just get old.
Yeah, it kind of depends on how you live your life, what you do during it.
Yeah, so I can tell you a little bit more about how the project came to be.
this lifetime has been informed by a series of visionary experiences and dreams and
This one came out of a vision
But that vision started
Around the time I turned 65 when I started getting all of these social security and the propaganda
All these messages coming in. Okay, you're old now and I was so surprised
I really didn't think I had those beliefs until I hit that age
Until I started having to make those changes because I suddenly felt like my motivation dropped off and I just
Started thinking like oh don't buy anything new. You need to start giving away your things
This is like a subconscious like thing going on in my mind and it was pulling me away from
life actually
and
I remembered that when my mom
was in her 70s and she told me once she was so afraid that people would find out how old
she was because she was still working.
Ricky: And they might make her stop working?
Is that what she was afraid of?
Kirsten: Yeah, she was terrified that anybody would find out her age because she was ashamed
of it.
She felt like it was a bad thing and that if they found out that maybe she would lose
her job or she would lose respect because that is one of the cultural messages, unfortunately,
that you become more invisible and not as valuable.
for a female even more, like you have no more beauty on top of it.
So she told me, and for some reason I had the presence of mind to say, "Mom, that doesn't
sound right, and would you like to have a ceremony, a rite of passage?"
And I only knew about this because I'd heard someone tell me a story about having a celebrated
rite of passage when she began her elder cycle.
So my mom came up to Oregon, I gathered a bunch of friends, she didn't know any of them, and
she told her story and she got the feedback and everybody gave her little gifts and we
created what was called a grandmother bundle with all of these little objects to represent
how we see her, how we want her to see herself. And I swear to God, it was like a 24-hour change.
She went from being like, "Oh, I don't want anybody to know," and being ashamed,
to being very proud of it. And she like, you know, put a staff in the ground, "I'm an elder now."
and she presided. And I watched that and I saw that and I wasn't thinking of that for myself,
but I'm having those negative thoughts about myself. And I went to Hawaii for my birthday.
I was very blessed to have that experience. I was meditating at a peace garden and I had this
luminous visionary experience. And this is hard to describe going back to words and all of that,
the concessions of language, but there was a gathering of luminous beings around me that
somehow I knew they were called the pearls. And they were basically inviting me into a rite of
passage to say yes to take on a rite of passage that would be documented for others to see as an
example of how we can make it through that negativity into a new possibility through
connecting with the deeper truth of who we are, which of course is the soul stream or the leg.
I wasn't so sure I was up for that, but I felt the call and when I came out of the meditation
and I wandered out through the gift store, I saw a pearl. There was a pearl necklace and I just
looked at the pearl and I knew if I took it home, it would mean I was saying yes. And I'm wearing
it today. This is my pearl. I said yes to having that, to be the stand-in, to step in, to represent
all women, all humans, because this is not a gender issue. The transition into empowerment at aging
and have that documented in a film. And it started as an idea that just came through in spirit,
and I just started talking to a few people about it, and suddenly it started gaining
momentum and people started coming in and a year later there was a film crew and a whole
project has manifested out of that and we're just entering the post-production phase. I have found
it really fascinating in this lifetime because I can see how many times this has happened over my
life where when I'm listening and trusting and acting on that inner guidance and knowing something
happens in the outer world. So if you could summarize in a few sentences what the main
purpose of this film is. The main purpose is to bring awareness to this topic and to contribute
to the cultural narrative and to present another possibility of what it could look like and also
what we need in order to make that transition in a positive way. And the thematic backdrop
is actually a rite of passage ceremony, which includes some of the pieces that we all have
to face, kind of being symbolically enacted. We've all heard that more traditional Indigenous
societies value older people. They don't just lock them away in homes where you can't see them,
they become the spiritual guides for the community. I see your film as being a contribution to
restoring that value. We were talking earlier about how society might go through a big tumultuous
transition but might end up in a much better place after that. I think this will be one of
the characteristics of that much better place. Kind of the re-establishment of the value of
older people and the critical role really that they have to play. You don't just put them out
the pasture and out of sight, out of mind. They really have a critical role to play, which if
they don't play, society is impoverished as a result.
- Absolutely. And these rites of passage are a way to stop, to pause, and to acknowledge
and to be conscious about stepping into that role or into that phase in a way that feels
empowered and having other people reflect that back and to confirm it.
It's cool that you do a ceremony for it too, because you know, we have baptisms, we have
graduations, we have weddings, we have ceremonies at various stages of our lives, but who does
ceremonies for, you know, becoming an older person?
I guess they give you a gold watch if you've been working at the company long enough, but
for the most part, there's no traditional society-wide ceremony when you turn a certain
age, 65 or whatever.
this is a good time for me to just kind of give you a little snapshot of what that was like.
There was an elder who's farther down the road from me who was going to be the one to initiate
me into elderhood. There was a community of men, women, boys, and girls that gathered.
The ceremony started, everyone had kind of passed through an arbor and added their touch to it. So
they put flowers on the arbor and then they found their seats. And then the elder walked beside me
to take my place and
I found that really beautiful to not be alone on that walk like there was someone to show me what it could look like
moving farther down the road
There were a few other phases to this ceremony. So I found my spot
The first part of the ceremony was I held him. I called it looking in the mirror. And so a little boy
Held a mirror. He kind of held it. It was a mirror that belonged to my mom
and he kind of held it right here at his chest. It's just how it worked out. He kneeled down in
front of me and he held this mirror to me and my intention was to look in the mirror and look at
all the wrinkles and look at all the things and call out what's challenging about this part of
the journey and what I anticipate are the challenges about this part of the journey.
But actually what happened instead, Rick, is that right at that moment that he put the mirror there,
the sun came up over the trees and a big burst of light went onto the mirror and it reflected back
into my face. And it was just like, "Okay, that's the deeper truth." All of those limiting ideas are
something that I've been taught or I've seen role models and they're not really the truth.
And so, I put that mirror down and that was one phase of the ceremony. And the next phase was
recognizing that the journey through a lifetime we pass through different seasons and phases.
But in a sense, we never really lose connection with all of those different facets. So, for example,
there was a girl who came up to represent the innocence and the enthusiasm of the child
archetype, and she blew bubbles and all the children blew bubbles and there's bubbles everywhere.
You know, we felt that. And then we hugged. And that was like to represent the merging and the
reintegration of that. You know how they say you go back to where you started at the end of your life
if you're lucky. You know to reclaim that joyful present aliveness of just being here and now and
excited about what creative opportunity there might be. And so there was an integration of the
child. The next was a mother with two children that came up and she was to represent the season
of our life that's and this is non-gendered really where it's all about the selfless service.
And then we had an integration of that.
These are not the phases I'm in anymore, but they're still in me and they're in all of us as archetypes.
And then the midlife person. This was a CEO, a woman who's a CEO of her company
and she's in that phase of her life where she has to persevere.
Persevere, keep going, keep at it. It's a time of strength and perseverance.
I remember that woman that I used to be where it was so motivated by
the marketplace and work in the world and you know, we hugged and integrated and then the last one was the elder and so
Just the acting out this opportunity. We have to become whole and complete
As we age into that sage function
Because when I really go deep into what's true about what it means to be an elder for me
I don't really identify with it. Like I don't say I am an elder really
if I do, those words don't really ring true. It's more like,
eldering is a function, it's a way of being that I can go in and out of when it's called for,
but I choose to be available to be called for that and to respond to the call when life presents an
opportunity or I create an opportunity. Pete Did you choreograph that whole ceremony?
Kirsten It was created by a council of women who I
formed when I first received this inspiration because I knew I couldn't create it on my own.
And in fact, that's one of the wisdom pearls that I have gathered in this lifetime. It's just no fun
to do anything on one's own, really. Collaboration, at least for how I'm organized, is what brings the
juice and the joy. So I just want to be a part of that process. And I was willing to be the one who
stands in to represent that woman or that human. Yeah, it's more of a metaphor than a thing. So,
I helped to collaborate on that, but there were others who designed the ceremony.
- Nice. Okay, let's turn on the Wayback Machine and talk about your childhood,
your adolescence, your early life, and, you know, some of the things you've gone through. I get the
impression that you're one of these people who had some pretty interesting stuff going on, even from
an early age. - Well, you know,
because I have the perspective of the soul map, which I'll talk about later, I see every human
being as being so unique in what they come in with and what they're here for. And I feel like I came
in with a lot of development already in some areas. And I think I just woke up really early.
So I just want to describe briefly that I had many ecstatic mystical experiences as a very young
child, I would never have been able to talk about that or describe that to you, but I just remember
laying on the cement in the summertime with water on the cement and the warmth of the sun and the
water and the body and this sense of just being part of everyone and everything. So undifferentiated
well-being and many experiences like that, being underneath a tree and just smelling the sap
and the senses seem to be gateways to this explosion of love and presence. And that went on
until I was around 10 and then I had a like a massive contraction and my dad had a major heart
attack and you know we thought he was going to die. Fortunately he didn't die but he also was
never well again, but my sense of being safe or secure, that freedom to feel safe enough to just
blend with everyone and everything really shut down for me. But something else opened up, and
this became my search for the divine, for God. I do remember so vividly in all the Bible school
classes and everything, the only thing that made sense to me was this idea that God is love. Like,
that seems so true and so logical, but I didn't feel it in the church. I didn't feel it really
very much from any of the people. I just didn't, there was no aliveness. So I asked my parents if
they would take me to other people's churches. So at age 12, I began my search as a seeker.
And, you know, they took me to Glide Memorial Church. That's a big church in San Francisco,
a Buddhist monastery. Somehow I got into a Mormon situation, I'm not sure how.
Pete They showed up at your door.
Kristin The one that really, really made a difference,
changed my life. My mom took me to an Hindu guru in Berkeley, California, and I was 12 years old,
and we took the bus. They were chanting, they were singing and chanting and the music, I'm like,
"Wow, this is so cool!" You know, I love that part. And then they took me to see the master.
And he didn't speak English, but someone was translating, and he had a peacock feather,
and he just hit my forehead with a peacock feather. They gave me a mantra, and the instruction was to
go home and at night to put your attention right here and to say the mantra. And so I did. But
But before we left, we had to wait for the bus and I was so filled with energy, I couldn't
stand still.
I was like running back and forth while my mom was waiting for the bus, just filled with
life.
And that's when I knew there was something going on.
There's something here.
So I would get in my little bunk bed at night and I would concentrate here and I'd say the
mantra and I'd get these like painful headaches.
But for some reason, I persevered and sometimes that would pop open, and when it would pop
open, that's just some way to describe this, I would just go back to that feeling of the
waves of well-being and beyond the words to describe.
And this was going on in my little bunk bed for years.
Pete: That must have been Muktananda, right?
Peacock feather.
Yeah.
Kirsten: I think it was later I researched to find out who that was.
Yeah, it was Muktananda.
But I never had a conversation with him again, it was just the instruction to meditate.
Yeah, that's cool.
I wish I had learned to meditate when I was 12.
It took me 6 more years, during which time I did some damage to myself that had to be
repaired.
What was this about mom and Jane in the kitchen?
It was in your notes.
What was that one?
Yeah, so throughout my whole childhood, but around 12 when I was old enough to really
be paying attention.
My mom was in the kitchen often with my godmother Jane, who was also quite a bit older than my
mom so she was a mentor for my mom.
And Jane had taught my mom a numerologically based mapping system and they would be having
conversations, they were reading charts of neighbors and friends and relatives and having
these conversations about the metaphysical perspective on what a life is all about.
both of my parents were metaphysically oriented. They were both Rosicrucians and they were both
really compassionate human beings and I just was kind of born into that field.
Pete The Bhagavad Gita says what a good fortune it is to be born in a family of yogis.
Kristi Yeah, well, I would say they were more like
wounded healers. Pete
But yeah, they were cool people to be raised by.
Kristi Yes, and I didn't know any different, right?
so I never even thought I'd like to learn this. It was just a conversation going on in the background
of my life and later it became more of something that came to the front. So that meditation you
learned when you were 12 and you got a mantra, you kept doing that throughout your adolescence?
Yeah, and I also continued to have these visionary or intuitive impulses,
knowings of things that just continued on and on, small things to big things, that I, for
some reason, knew to listen to and trust and act on.
Rick: That's great.
So apparently you missed the whole drug phase that many of us went through in those days.
Julie: I didn't miss it completely.
I mean, I tried, but I found that I was experiencing a natural high from this ability to tap into
this inner source, because it also was a source of creativity.
There was just all this music that would flow out of me and poetry.
It was so joyful that doing something to alter that also kind of felt like bringing me down.
So I tried and I didn't spend a lot of time with it.
That's good.
That was kind of my conclusion once I took drugs quite a bit for a year before I learned
to meditate.
But after I learned to meditate, I never did them again.
But my feeling was, "Hey, I feel better all the time than drugs made me feel temporarily,
So why would I do that anymore?
Yeah.
I mean, I see all these poor people taking fentanyl and all this stuff.
You know, it's like, there's a better way.
Whatever chemicals these drugs are able to trigger in your brain, your brain can produce
them on its own and much more enjoyably than introducing some artificial substance.
Now, that's not to say that psychedelics don't have value under certain circumstances, but
still, we're capable of tremendous bliss through our own neurophysiology.
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely. And I wonder why it is that we have, many of us have a resistance to that.
Even though we know that potential is there, we make other choices.
I think to a great extent it might be due to lack of proper guidance. I mean, you had
really good guidance as a child, given who your parents were, and their open-mindedness
taking you to all these different things. The average kid doesn't get that. You know,
I didn't have a clue that this kind of thing existed until I was 17, and it took me a while
to find something that I could really do. So I finally started when I was 18. But, you know,
ideally, there should be an introduction to this in grammar school appropriate to the age level of
the children. And there are some schools which do that, but it's pretty rare. And if there's ever
any attempt to introduce it into the public schools, it usually gets shut down by religious
fundamentalists. - It's really, really true. Well, I do feel really blessed. My godmother,
Jane also had a guru. His name was Charan Singh. I vaguely remember hearing about him.
I was like 14 when I started going to these groups and I was just so drawn to anyone who was talking
about spirituality that was a little different than the way that it was being portrayed to me
in our family church. So I actually was initiated by that guru, which is,
I never saw him. He was like somewhere on the other side of the planet
And also there were all these rules
All the things that you had to not do in order to be pure enough, right?
And I was doing all that stuff, you know, it's like okay quit everything everything
I mean some of it was just ridiculous like food restrictions like pour any honey you have in the house out
You know celibacy was definitely on the you know
like there were so many things to be pure and I just wanted to be pure enough to know God.
Pete: Right.
Kirsten: You know, even though I was knowing God, I just didn't realize that's what it was,
you know, all along.
Pete: Yeah.
Kirsten: And so, I went through a, like a, you know, that process where you give your power
away to an outer authority in order to somehow find that out there, you know, the God out there,
and it didn't work for me ultimately. And I had to find the inner strength to say,
and it's my godmother that this isn't my path. Yeah, and then more often than not,
turns out the guru is doing all the things he's telling everybody else not to do.
I'm afraid that happens pretty often. I will never know because I did have one of those
visionary dreams where I was walking down the street and he was walking down the other side
of the street and we just went like this. There was no contact. Interesting. A question came in
from somebody. This is Paul Diaz in the United States. How does an older person work through
feelings of resignation when facing the physical challenges of aging. The pull to just sit
on the couch seems to be intensifying as I age, but at a deeper level, I know it's not
in my ultimate best interest."
That is such an important, good question. Just asking the question, I feel like questions
are like keys because it opens up the cosmic URL or whatever, the Google in the sky. It
It just opens up the possibility that there is to ultimately become the answer to that
question.
So, just asking it is like inviting an exploration of that feeling.
That feeling of, "Well, I might as well just stop or give up and investigate to inquire
to discover what that really is about."
So I can give an example of one that came up for me recently.
I used to love to dance and I would go to like group dancing like ecstatic dance things and this was years ago and I really
Loved it
And then kovat happened and none of that was possible. And then when I thought about going again
I I just found like resistance like i've been saying I want to do this now for years. It's like why am I not doing this?
I just want to sit here. I don't want to go
And when I really tuned in what I discovered is that there was a a belief under there that was i'm too old
I'm too old like a woman my age should not be there's a certain way that you're supposed to look
There's a certain way you're supposed to behave
And so I discovered there was a limiting belief that now I could question. Is that really true?
And do I really have to hold that as true? So self-inquiry and
Like going into the emotion and discovering what that might be. Yeah
One thing I would say to paul is there's a saying
Sitting is the new smoking. As I mentioned earlier, I'm 75. I'm pretty physically active and I really
feel like, you know, I sit so much at the computer when I want to actually accomplish things that I
can only accomplish at the computer. And personally, I just get kind of stir crazy if I sit here too
long. I got to do something. So I go and walk four or five miles in the woods every morning,
and I'm usually listening to stuff or talking to people on the phone, but it's great exercise.
It's hilly, you know, so I get a lot of exercise. Before that, I was playing pickleball for a few
years before COVID struck. So I don't know what Paul's physical condition is or his age, but my
personal recommendation is get off the couch, do something. If you're bored by just walking,
listen to a podcast, listen to Buddha at the Gas Pump while you're walking and find something you
enjoy that doesn't have to be walking, it can be all kinds of things, and just build it up. It's
so good for your health, it'll add years to your life. I think my resting heart rate is in the low
50s and my blood pressure is 100 over 60 or something like that.
Wow, that's amazing.
And maybe some of that is genetic, I don't know. But in any case, I'm not bragging, I just want to
set an example to say that the oldest man to climb to the summit of Mount Everest was 81.
And I saw an article about some lady in her 90s who was doing triathlons,
which are these really intense physical things. So, yeah, use it or lose it, man.
[Laughter]
Yeah, well I just feel so much compassion for the inertia, like that feeling of wanting to just stop.
Because it does feel to me like there's also so much pressure, evolutionary pressure, that we're all feeling on some level on the planet today as it is.
That it's almost like a natural coping mechanism.
Is to be safe, you just stop.
Right? And a freeze, it's a freeze response.
And when we recognize that maybe we're picking up on that collective energy, it's possible to summon
the motivation to just try moving. And, you know, it is really true that movement is life,
even if it's the smallest movement, it's possible. And there's so many resources online for like
online yoga and just simple things that are designed for people who don't have as much
mobility. So there's lots of resources. Sure, it all depends on what your condition is. I mean,
you could join a square dancing group or you could play pickleball. Pickleball is great. A lot of
older people do it and it's fun. It makes you feel good. It actually creates endorphins and stuff in
your system and helps with purification of the system. Anyway, we don't want to harp on that
too much. But one thing I thought about though is, let's say a person just feels tired and they feel
lethargic and all. You know how you said when you were 12 and you learned to meditate, all of a sudden
you had so much energy you were running back and forth at the bus stop. Sometimes people find if
they do an effective meditation practice that they start to get a lot more energy and they find
themselves becoming more dynamic. There's a verse in the Bhagavad Gita which is "Yoga is skill in
action" and the whole teaching of that book was that going into the transcendent can actually be
a preparation for dynamic activity and can make you more dynamic. If you want to shoot an arrow
You can't just hold it on the bow and let go of it, it's just going to flop to the ground.
But if you pull it back on the bow, it'll shoot with great speed.
And meditation can be like that, where you bring your mind to a state of silence, and
then when you come back to activity, you just feel energized and you're more motivated to
do stuff.
It's a good question though, and I'm glad that it was brought to our focus just a little
bit today, because that is one of the perils and pitfalls of the programming around aging.
And everything just gets smaller and smaller and smaller, and it just doesn't have to be
that way.
And we all have to find our own way.
Yeah.
Okay.
Another one of your notes here was initiation of motherhood.
Oh, okay.
Going back again.
We're reeling back to the earlier life.
I feel that the experience of conception and pregnancy and labor and birth and then responsibility
for parenting and mothering was also a huge initiatory process for me because suddenly
my life was no longer about me. It was about being of service and that started for me.
I had my son when I was 18. So I started that really young of recognizing every choice I
made had an effect on someone else and always had to be taken into consideration. And so
So I feel like it took me immediately onto the path of service and also the recognition
of the miraculous experience of having a human body and having a female body and, you know,
just the miracle of it all.
Yeah.
Just as you're doing a whole thing about the evolutionary value of the older phase of one's
life, whatever you want to call it, I imagine one could make a documentary and perhaps some
have been made about the evolutionary value of the motherhood phase.
There's a lady I interviewed a couple times in New Zealand named Lucy Grace, and she had
this young child, and the child was, you know, she was used to this nice meditative routine,
you know, and all of a sudden she has this kid that won't let her sleep or do anything,
and she's like, "Oh my God!"
But she very clearly got the message, "This is your spiritual practice now.
Get into it.
Take advantage of it."
Yes
I remember lucy and her daughter and just absolutely like if we keep rolling it back to earlier
For a girl her first really big initiatory experience is with her first menstruation
and that has been for some reason felt called to
Acknowledge these rites of passage for women at these different ages and phases and in fact for
more than 15 years of my life, I was dedicated to and created a program called Maiden Spirit
that was all about helping girls to experience the conscious and celebrated rite of passage
at their first noon experience, but also to prepare them for becoming conscious young women in a way
that gave them access to their wisdom source within. So it was a spirituality and rites of
passage program for girls. And that started because I was working with women and they had daughters,
and they kept asking me, "Would you do something like this for our girls?"
And at that time, I'm like, "Well, I'm not qualified for that. I don't have that experience.
I have a son, not a daughter. Thank you for trusting me with that, but I'm not going to do
that and then I had another one of those visionary experiences again in Hawaii and this time I was
camping at a ancient village site in Maui and I had another really profound experience of being a child,
being a little girl and being chased into a cave and it was really scary and somehow I found my way
out of the cave and I was hiding underneath a banyan tree and that person left and then I started
to hear the sound of like tinkling bells, thousands and thousands of bells. And out of that same cave
came a light, a beautiful light. And then out of the light emerged this tall woman. And she's just
kind of beckoned to me and I followed her into the cave and she took me down into the cave into
a cavern and it was really beautiful. And I felt really safe. And she said, "This isn't the way it
should be. And somehow I knew when she said that, not feeling safe, not feeling safe as a girl,
and not feeling good about myself as a girl. And then I don't remember what happened. It was like
something went dark. I don't remember it, but I knew when I came out of it, when I woke up or my
eyes opened up, I felt so empowered and so happy, so glad to be myself, so alive. And then she said
to me, "Now, I want you to go out and bring the other girls back to me." And that was my instruction
to create that program, to create a place where I could bring the girls to have that experience,
to support them in having that experience. And that became the visionary inspiration and
instruction that turned into Maiden Spirit. That's cool. You have some pretty amazing
visions. That was all just like in a meditative session? Amazing, wow. What do you think when
you hear the statistics these days about all the kids, especially young girls, committing suicide
and they're all addicted to social media and they're so concerned about what people are saying
about them on social media? There's an information overwhelm now that kids have that we didn't have
when we were that age, and it's taking a toll. What would be your advice to young girls or to
their parents or whatever about that particular thing? It's very concerning, you know, the dark
side of technology. In fact, I was just talking to a young school counselor and she was telling me
that her girls that are like age 12 or so, they all do TikToks and they do like their morning routines
And their morning routines involve 15 different products and they're asking their mothers for retinol and
other anti-aging products at the age of 12
And I'm like, wow, what is that all about? And she said well now because we're on you know, the social media is everything
It's all about your face
So there's like this incredible need to look a certain way and it is very concerning
I think it's really up to the parents
To recognize that they need to have limits but also to find alternative
opportunities for their children
To be in environments where they're having an alternative type of experience in education
And there are programs like that. I know maiden spirit was specifically designed for that
And when I started that work, there was hardly anything
For girls like that and now there's many many programs i'm not in touch with what they are at this moment
but there are resources and I think it has to be really intentional.
Yeah, maybe this would be hard for a 12-year-old or a 13-year-old, but eventually, if you're
fortunate, you come to the realization that you are so much more than your body.
I don't mean to keep talking about myself, but I'm sometimes so oblivious to my body that,
you know, Irene says, "Have you combed your hair this week?" or, you know,
"Do you realize how ridiculous that outfit looks that you're wearing?" I think, "Oh, okay, I don't
And I think when I was younger, I also was kind of a basket case, but I was very hyper concerned
You know aware of it and how how nerdy I was or whether my hair looked good
Or you know whether I had zits on my face or stuff like that. I
Hopefully you grow out of that stuff
I know that there have been cases of you know
Beautiful movie stars who just fall into a deep deep depression when they start to lose their beauty
So, I think the normal spiritual development process, I think, should enable a person to
realize the truth of the matter, which is that we are way more than our physical body.
The spiritual teachings all say that, you are so much more than your body, but it doesn't
just have spiritual significance, it has kind of practical significance for the way one
feels throughout life, our social interactions and stuff like that.
Yeah, I mean the perennial questions like who am I, that deep question, that for me opened
up when I was 12.
It began and because of that I began to access resources, right, that pointed back to that
deeper truth that we are so much more than we appear to be and the body is an incredible
blessed vessel, an instrument, but it's not who we are.
But the world keeps telling you that it is.
And so, it takes a tremendous amount of mental and spiritual strength to counteract those
forces.
Pete Yeah, the body is a vehicle, like your car.
It's nice to have a car that works well, but you are not your car.
Kirsten Yeah, absolutely.
So, somehow, so interesting, like we're going back and forth, like there's no linear flow,
but I can see there's like this thread that runs through from the beginning of my life
until now. And it's taken different forms of expression, but it always has that common
thread of remember the deeper truth of who you are and what this life really is. And
when we forget to reach out to someone who's established in that knowing to reconnect and
re-stabilize again.
I think another thing about all this is the whole fear of death thing. I mean, speaking
of aging as we get old. I don't know how it is for most older people. Maybe you would
know because you've been studying this and making a movie about it, but does fear of
death become more acute as most people get older? Obviously, it would seem that a spiritual
orientation would help to ameliorate that.
Katie Well, that has been, I haven't done a lot
of research, but that has been my experience so far. That yeah, those who have a direct
connection have developed the resources and the skills and the capacities to be able to trust the
unknown, to be able to step into the unknown. And because we don't know what that's going to be,
how that will be, cultivating that sense of trusting one's ability, like you said, to free
fall, but there's no ground. It becomes much more of like an anticipatory, I can't wait, almost like
I'm looking forward to that.
This is tough being here in the body
and there are inevitable,
there's just different kinds of challenges
at each of these ages and stages,
these different rites of passage in human development.
There's just different challenges,
but the same skills and capacities that we can develop
will help us to meet those challenges.
Meditation, just stilling, getting quiet and tapping in.
You know, that was something I felt was so important
teach those children and the curriculum was the first thing we talked about, you know, the real
you. And I would take them on a guided journey to meet their inner wisdom source. That's where I
learned that the wise man, the wise woman, the wise one is an archetype because those children
actually know. They already know. So many of them, what now we might call the elder,
the wise elder, they already have it inside and they can connect to it and they can get their own
information and knowledge and be guided by that inner resource. And it doesn't, you know, that
doesn't end. Pete Yeah, that's important too. I mean, on the death thing, there's that saying,
"Die before you die," which I think means get to that level of life that is beyond the manifest,
which is eternal and immortal and so on. And most of the people I know who've had near-death
experiences, I've interviewed a lot of them, and they're like, completely obliterates the fear of
of death because they've had a glimpse of something that's so marvelous.
Not that they're in a hurry to die, but when it happens, no big deal.
But this thing you just said about the young people finding this inner guidance, this relates
to what we were just saying about social media, how people are so influenced by, they call
them social influencers, you know, "I'm an influencer."
But what kind of influence are a lot of these people exerting on young people?
I think the ability to have greater self-determination and autonomy and less, not only young people,
but it seems like a huge swath of our society these days is easily brainwashable, and being
able to be more centered in oneself and less permeable, less influenced by external stimuli
is a critical need in our day and age.
and agree more.
You know, I talked a little bit about
the nine pathways of the soul.
Those are realms of human development
and this is one of the realms of human development
is being able to withdraw from outer focus
to discover all that is within.
- Yeah.
- And eventually that is often described as the scientist
who is willing to ask the questions
and explore to discover the answer.
But then there's a point where the scientist can't find the answer by looking outside and
asking anyone or anything and turns and faces the mystery and becomes a mystic.
Rick Nice.
Did you have a guru other than Muktananda?
There was a point here he said, "Leaving my guru."
Julie That was the first one, Charan Singh.
Rick Oh, right, that guy, yeah.
Julie Yeah, leaving him was scary because I was
still believing that God is out there.
And like I said in the beginning, these progressive openings and shocks and awakenings, and then
I'd fall back into like God's out there and I'm separate.
Right?
Like a toggle switch, I'd have these expansions and I'd fall back to feeling like I'm separate
and I'm in charge and going back and forth and back and forth.
But there was one big opening that happened for me about five years ago, and I just want
presence it because when we started our conversation, I talked about the mountain and having less people
to be able to talk with or communicate with, and this happened for me. I was on my way to a retreat
with Shakti Katarina Magi, who I believe. Ricky Oh yeah, I know Shakti. I interviewed her.
Debra Yes, she's a wonderful non-dual teacher. I really like her feminine expression of that.
and I was following my GPS, right? I'm following my GPS, although my intuition is saying, "Don't do
this. Don't go this way. Don't go this way." And I didn't listen. I have no idea. I feel like I was
on, you know, logging roads, kind of. It took me the fastest route. And over the Santa Cruz
Mountains up to Mount Madonna, it's in Santa Cruz, it's a retreat center. I didn't realize I was this
close but maybe it was like two or three miles and it's windy like this and there's no room for two
cars and there's blind curves and I'm being careful but all of a sudden and there's a wall of mountain
right here so there's nowhere to go and there was a truck coming right at me and it's right into me.
It hit you? Yeah it hit me. Wow. It was like my worst fears being like alone in a deserted area
Being in a car accident by myself all these things that I've had in the past that were I was afraid of happened
But what also happened is that?
Okay, my car smashed into the mountain the guy stops. He comes out and
All I remember is he was Mexican and he had a Guadalupe gold charm right here. I'm looking at his charm
I'm looking at this Guadalupe and he's talking to me and all the sudden
It was like I suddenly lost my sense of individuation.
I totally felt him completely as myself, the mountain, my car, the human sitting there,
crunched and traumatized.
It all happened all at once.
And then, I don't know how this worked out, but somehow my car was somewhat drivable.
And the guy, I think he was high on pot and he didn't give me his real license.
It was sketchy.
somehow I drove my car shaking and rattling to the retreat center and I get there. Of course,
my car had to be towed from there, but I never left that state. But my body was traumatized.
And so I walk into my room, I have a roommate, I've never met her before. I just said, I was
just in a car accident. She goes, I'm a somatic trauma therapist, so let me help you. So she
immediately put her hands on me and my body trembled and shook and did all this stuff.
and then I went on with the retreat. I've never been the same. Really? That's interesting. I mean,
so that was a watershed moment and things have never been the same since. Very interesting.
It's been difficult to express or communicate and for a few years I really needed things like Buddha
at the gas pump and a few other people that I could talk to because my experience was so out
of the ordinary. It was as if, like at night, I'd be laying in bed and I couldn't tell where I was.
I couldn't tell where the ceiling was or the floor. I just felt like I was all of that.
That sounds lovely, but it was really scary.
Pete: Yeah.
Kirsten: For so much of my life, I had this really concrete feeling of being a
separate human being. And even though there was these moments of expansion,
there'd be a contraction back. And this time it just never contracted back.
It took a while to reorient
It was a little challenging and now it's like there's a silence and a stillness and an emptiness
Like when I came out of that rite of passage my older rite of passage
I thought people were going to be right there in front of me to give me a hug
That's not what happened
They all moved out into a big semi-circle and I walked down into empty space and that's how it is
It's like even now we're talking and we're having this flow of communication
creative, beautiful, and I feel such an emptiness inside, a stillness, a silence.
Pete And in this context,
emptiness doesn't have a negative connotation. Like you said, stillness and silence. You might
even be able to say fullness, but it's a stillness and silence.
Julie Yeah, it's going back to the paradox.
Pete Right.
Julie Paradox.
Pete Yeah.
Julie Like, I'm here, I'm doing all the things,
I have to go through all the human stuff. The body's experiencing that, but it's also
experiencing all of it.
Rick: Interesting. I've heard of other instances, and I think it's probably come up in some
of my interviews, where a traumatic experience like that precipitates an awakening.
Julie: I've heard that too.
Rick: Yeah, and it doesn't reverse.
Julie: I don't recommend it.
Rick: No, I mean, there are probably more graceful ways of doing it, but...
Julie: Mostly it's been nice. You can integrate afterwards.
Rick: Yeah.
Julie: I remember my friends, like, they could listen, but they just couldn't understand
to relate and I didn't know how to explain what was happening. It's funny, I even forget
time, thinking of like stepping into this elder season. When one is identified more
as the self, there is no time. So, there's no old age either. It's just now.
Rick The word "identified" is a good one because
obviously there are all these different dimensions to our life and one dimension is the body
and it is aging, but if that's your primary locus, then it's a problem. But it could be
much more peripheral than that, and you could be primarily established in being, which is ageless.
- Yeah, I love having this human. I find the senses, it's like going back to where I started
as a child, but now there's more of like an individuated consciousness here, so it's not so
diffuse. The senses are what bring me so much incredible happiness and just feeling the
aliveness. Sometimes I'll just look at something and I'll just really see it. It's so incomprehensibly
beautiful.
Rick You know, it's said that a progression after
Self-Realization can very often be the refinement of the senses. That refinement needs the establishment
the
God realization is out of the question.
He couldn't even telephone from a distance, you'd be crushed.
So, you need that stability and then the senses can just really start to flourish.
Kim: Yes.
I remember with Jane, you know, she used to tell me that there's self-realization before
God realization.
Dave: Exactly, right.
Kim: And I'm like, "What?
I don't get that.
Why?
Why would you want to have self-realization if you could just go right to God realization?"
So, it took me a few decades of maturing to recognize the importance of developing the
vessel to be capable of withstanding the intensity.
Another analogy might be a small shallow pond can't rise up in great tidal waves.
It would only just stir up the mud, but an ocean can do that.
Exactly.
This also pertains to the idea of devotion, the expansion of the heart.
Okay, we have about half an hour left.
I want to make sure that we don't miss out on something important.
You know, there are a few little tidbits from your younger years, but maybe we've covered
that.
You have alluded to this work you have done with young girls and also young boys.
We might want to talk more about that.
And then there's the Life Blessing Institute, and maybe there's more to say about the Women's
Right Documentary Project.
And then there's Matthew Fox, who you studied with, Thomas Hubel you studied with.
So what would you like to cover in the next half hour?
I do want to just mention again, my filter, I guess, is always looking towards what's
working, what can feel better, how can it be improved, rather than what's wrong.
One of my greatest teachers around this concept is Matthew Fox.
And the way that I discovered Matthew was, I was at a Franciscan renewal center for just
some contemplative time and I went into the library and I looked at the books and I saw
this book and it just had the title of "Original Blessing" and I'd never heard of original
blessing, I'd certainly heard of original sin.
Pete: [Laughter]
Kirsten And it's almost like that moment changed my
life.
Like, wow, you mean all this really is is sacred and a blessing, this human experience,
human body, this creation is inherently good and sacred. And I didn't really even need to read the
book. I mean, it was just like, yes, that resonated with me and later became woven into everything that
I do. And I've heard you talk about this many times, Rick, but whatever we focus on will increase.
So why don't we focus on how to bring more love and compassion and beauty and justice
into the world, even if it's just like that woman in the grocery store who told me she liked my
braids. The main tenet of creation spirituality is that life creation is a blessing. And I also
really loved that woven into that philosophy is this idea that spirituality is lived both through
science as well as through spiritual practice or spiritual values. And I like that. I also like
that Matthew really specifically talked about the feminine aspects of the divine and really
celebrated that and it resonated with me. I just found an organization and a community and a belief
system that I could fit into somewhat, but life as original blessing is I think the main takeaway
for me from that whole educational process because I got my master's through the Naropa Institute and
and the creation spirituality track, and my doctoral project was to create a curriculum
to train mentors for the main spirit work. But I always appreciate and bow down to important
mentors along the way, and Matthew Fox was one of them.
Rick Yeah, he's a neat guy. I first saw him at
the S.A.N.D. conference and liked him a lot and then interviewed him a little bit later.
But you know, what you're saying here I think is really important because I know I've gone
through phases in my life under the influence of certain spiritual teachings where I maligned
and belittled life. It was more like something to escape from. Let me get off the wheel,
and kind of like life sucks, then you die kind of a thing. And you know, there are spiritual
traditions which emphasize that, you know, this world is horrible, but then you'll go
to heaven if you're a good person. But to me, that kind of demeans God. It kind of makes
God into some kind of sadist who would just set up this torture chamber for everybody,
as opposed to seeing the beauty of life and the potential and the value of it as something
to enjoy rather than to escape from.
Katie - Yes.
Yeah, we have so much power in our - we don't have much free will or choice, but we do have
the choice of where we put our attention.
Pete - Yeah.
Wiggle room, I always say, when the topic of free will comes up.
It's like I can't play basketball like LeBron James, but I can do, you know, within my dharma,
within my field of possibilities, there's a window of freedom, and you can move it this
way or that way.
Greater freedom, greater bondage, depending on what you do with that window.
Well, I say, "Let's do love."
Yeah.
What are these Soul Stream life map readings?
So Jane and my mom were practicing this life mapping system, and they eventually, when
I entered into my first wave of career path was as a hands-on healer, and I did body work,
and that quickly transformed into a body-centered coaching or counseling method called Hikomi.
And I'm working, yeah, with Hikomi, I'd be working with my clients and we'd, you know,
come to a place where they're repeating patterns, they're stuck, and it's just recycling, and
nothing that we're doing is helping to break through.
And I would go consult with my mom, and she would give me some impressions from her looking
at their soul map, that would be helpful for me to bring back into the session and would
often help to catalyze a breakthrough.
So after years and years of consulting with my mom, it became obvious that I should take
it on and learn.
And so I did.
And what I find really helpful, as we both know, as everyone knows, the map is not the
territory.
So it's like language.
You know, it's a pointer, symbolic.
can help us to gain access to what we are own deeper knowing. But it is helpful and
I find it really helpful for getting out of the self-criticism and judgments that
so many people have around the places where they have fears and have limiting
belief systems and as well as to step more powerfully into their gifts and
abilities. It's also really helpful when you have a kind of a basic understanding
about how a human's operating system works, to be more compassionate and patient with the
differences because everyone is organized really differently.
And just like we have a genetic inheritance, it's not going to change tremendously.
If I didn't know what my partner, my husband's soul code is, we might have more friction
because I just understand.
It's nothing personal.
There's some areas that we just don't understand each other or jive because he has different
degree of development in that area, or he's more developed, like he's real analytical and
I'm more mystical, and it's just helpful to have this understanding that is impersonal
in a sense.
Nathan: And so how do you do it?
Miriam: So the real nutshell version is that it's a mathematical process.
There have been throughout time and cultures many numerological systems.
The ancient Egyptians had a system, the Hebrew Kabbalah is their numerical system, I think
the I Ching may be a numerical system, but Pythagoras is the Greek philosopher who was
given credit to what became the system that my godmother Jane was taught.
And I don't really know anything more about her mentors, but it's based on this idea that
your full name at birth and birth date can be translated to numbers. So there's a mathematical
sentence, it's like your cosmic URL, you put it up there and you click the button and it
just kind of shows a basic framework, not for the truth of you as intelligence of light,
that presence of the divine spark that is the real you, but it can elaborate or illuminate
some of the framework for this lifetime. Your sense of purpose, the need for fulfillment,
personality structure of your human self, your greatest abilities. It also reveals what are
called in this system the karmic learning pathways. And those are the areas that I've found most
useful in working with clients is to see where there are areas in those nine pathways where
there's something that's occluding that they were born with. And then it just gets layered on top.
I found it to be a really useful assessment tool for helping people move past those barriers,
or move, actually consciously recognize them for what they are, and then have more compassion with
the process of melting some of that. I guess in some systems you would call it a trauma reaction,
or a samskara, or a vasana, depends on the system. I converted your book about the nine pathways to
audio and listen to the whole thing. And there was useful stuff in every chapter, I thought,
that pertained to anybody in every chapter, but I imagine that there would be different
classifications of people that it would pertain more to than the other ones would.
Katie We all have to evolve on all of the nine pathways.
Pete Right.
Katie And we're learning and developing on all of them all the time.
Pete Yeah.
Katie It's just there's specific ones. There's an archetypal energy that represents my purpose in
this life and it's manifesting right here with you because my number is nine for that particular part
of my map and that's all about selfless service. So, I'm willing to get past my forced bump like
introversion and show up here and have this conversation because I know it might touch
somebody and make a difference in their lives and if it does, that's fulfilling to my sense of purpose.
you know, I can't not do that. It's just there. And even when I've tried to have a different kind
of lifestyle, it's like the desire to serve and contribute always overpowers that. So, yeah,
that's an example of a specific archetype that affects me personally, but all human beings have
to learn about selfless service and being connected to the greater good.
Pete Yeah. And the actual mechanism of boiling
it down to a number. I don't understand it. It seems kind of arbitrary to me. You know,
name you happen to be given. I could have been given a different name, but I don't know. It's
not something we could resolve. But you know, there's a lot of things I don't understand.
So that's just one of them. I can share with you what my mom told me about that.
She said that the name, it's a vibration. It's a vibration. And in a way, the parent is tapping in
or tuning in to that vibration and is being influenced by the incoming soul to choose that
name. Because it's -
I was named after my father.
That's just what she said. And this is where the logic and reason, like, my predisposition is to
try things and see if they work and then if they do, I'll develop some faith in them. And because
I was born into this system and I practiced and I discovered it to be so accurate, I just gained
confidence and kind of gave up the need to totally understand all the logic and reason for how the
system works. I know that in the Vedic system, they use Jyotish or Vedic astrology to help to
determine what a child should be named based upon their chart. In my niece's case, her name was
supposed to have a "k" sound, start with a "k" sound, so they named her Camille, which fit with her
jokish thing. And of course, if they named her Amy or something, I don't know what kind of effect that
would have had on their life. Maybe nothing? Why not? Well, you know, if something's useful,
of course, we always have to have our own filters, right? And check everything with what really
resonates. But I have found it to be a really joyful way of interacting with people. I love
doing those readings, something happens. It's not just the map because there's an intuitive element
to it. It's like something starts to come through that is beyond the map itself. Yeah, it's almost
like a catalyst for you to just sit and interact and have the stuff come through. Exactly. So you
still do those I presume over Zoom or Skype or something. How's the film coming along? Do you
have enough funding? Are you going to be able to finish it up on time? We were able to do an Indiegogo
fundraiser and get enough money to pay for all the filming, so that part's done. Thank you, God.
And now we go into post-production, which is a tremendous job to edit. Four and a half days of
film distilled down into probably a half hour film. And it's going to have poetic elements to it, and
You know working with a director and an editor and that is a slow process
Just even organizing all the files
so all of that to say
We're going to be in post-production for months and months and hopefully by the end of spring we'll have something to
Actually bring forth to the world and we might need to do another fundraiser. I don't know most likely
That's a cool project. See you at the oscars
Well, thank you, I so appreciate you recognizing the value of this
topic of bringing light to empower that spiritual awakening even more so at this age and stage.
Pete Yeah, you know, as we've been talking,
I've been thinking about the spiritual significance of every age. Your single-digit years and your
adolescence and your married years and business years and your retirement years, each one has
its own flavor and its own evolutionary potential. And none of them are better or worse than the
others. And if you believe in reincarnation, we've probably been through thousands of such cycles.
So you just take full advantage of each one as you go.
- Yeah, I love metaphors and I love the nesting doll metaphor.
- Right, the Russian dolls, yeah.
- Yeah, like we just progressively like become more expansive, but we never really lose the core,
the spark at the center. It just develops and mature. You know, we're here to develop on all
of these pathways as human beings. But we're also here through the ripple effects, through
our interconnectivity to contribute to the creation of a more enlightened culture. So
there's two different levels of evolution going on at the same time. And who knows what
the smallest thing, like I'm thinking of those mentors I had when I was in my early
twenties that taught me about having this opportunity to live off the land and learning
how to live off the grid and they didn't teach me like here's the book and here are the steps,
they just lived it and I just watched them and all these years later I'm like wow I've recreated that
in my life so much. That opportunity to contribute through the ripple effect by just being more
completely aligned with who we are here to be and to eventually become, I could describe it
Another metaphor is the pearl, right? The pearls came to me, the pearl was given to me.
What is a pearl? You know, how's a pearl formed?
>> RICK: There's an irritant in the oyster.
>> SONIA: Yes. So every age and stage, you know, of our development,
along with the fun and the creativity, there's also irritants. And they have to be worked.
and then slowly in the fullness of time, if we stay with our process and don't become lost,
we become living pearls. If you could imagine an ideal society in which children were raised in
the ideal manner and each phase of life was lived in what you would conceive of as the ideal manner,
what would that look like? This is a big question, but what would that look like both individually and
collectively, you know, what kind of world would it be?
Well, what kind of world would it be? I guess every child would be given that education from
the beginning, like they would be directly invited into communion and connection with
that wisdom source within and be mentored and guided in how to actualize their realizations
or their feelings, their knowings into contribution to find their gift and then bring it into the
world and be supported in being able to do that and be infused with a vision of possibility
that is inspiring rather than degrading, you know, about what it means to have a physical body,
what it means to have a female body if you're a female, male body, whatever type of body you're
given, what it means to be at these different ages and phases would all be described as
desirable and good. So, I guess education from the beginning, spiritual education from the
beginning.
Rick Yeah, I'll add to that if I may, and maybe
you can elaborate more, but you know, you think of all the problems in the world with
climate change and social unrest and wars and poverty and famine and disease and drug
abuse and all these things, any one of which almost seems unsolvable.
But ultimately, who's creating all that stuff?
It's us.
It's everybody in the world.
It's just a reflection of our collective consciousness, our collective level of development or undevelopment.
And we're trying to tackle all these problems through political means and economic means
and so on.
I heard the other day someone said, "There isn't a poverty problem, there's an ethics
problem."
and you could kind of say that with all the different problems I just enumerated,
it all comes back to the state of consciousness of each individual in the world, all eight billion of
them. I think that's important for people to contemplate because, as Einstein said, if you
try to solve a problem with the same level of consciousness or understanding at which it was
created, you're bound to fail. One of the themes of my life has always been... remember that radio
show called New Dimensions, where Justine and Tom's, and I forget what her husband's name
was, but their little intro was always to say, "It's only through a change of consciousness
that the world will be changed."
I used to love that show.
I think that's what it boils down to.
We obviously need all the other stuff.
We need education and technologies and food, all the different things that we need to make
a world.
If we don't have the consciousness piece in place, then the foundation is missing, and
we're always going to have all these problems.
I didn't mean to give such a speech, but I just wanted to make that point.
Oh, that's beautiful.
I couldn't agree more, and I also love hearing you share your wisdom.
Yeah.
Well, you know, I'm standing on the shoulders of giants.
I didn't dream any of this stuff up.
the things I've come to believe over the years based on my experiences and observations.
And it is also part of what makes what you do so unique and beautiful is that you do
enter into the flow of communion with another soul and you share your side.
Yeah, it's also the biggest criticism I get. People say, "You talk too much. I just want to
hear the guest." But people don't usually want to do a two-hour monologue. They want to have
a conversation. Yes, because for me, speaking publicly
is one of my fears, right? So the gentleness of being able to flow back and forth has been
really important for me and I knew it would be that way with you, which is why I said yes to this
and also because I know that spirit has shown throughout my lifetime that there are important
ways that we can contribute to the creation of a better world through that shift in consciousness.
and this project, the Women's Right, and it's like R-I-T-E, the right, but also behind that is all
the women's rights that are being challenged, that are not well established on the planet. There's an
awareness of how the real pragmatic side, how will that change if we don't have a change of
consciousness? Yeah, there's some politicians now who are actually saying women shouldn't be allowed
to vote. If they want to take us back to the 1910s or something, there's a guy who has a political
sign in his yard, we walked past it when we walked the dogs around the block, it says,
"Take America Back."
I'm thinking, where do you want to take it back to?
The 1840s or something?
Moving forward is a better idea.
- Yeah.
Look at his soul map, we'd probably see he has a karmic lesson and some really fundamental
area of like marriage, home, and family or something, I don't know.
Coming out to the big picture also helps me to stay in that more neutral space, even though
I have preferences.
Exactly.
I totally agree.
There's the universal value of it all, God's eye view, and then, you know, we're individuals.
We have preferences.
Yes.
So, how can people get in touch with you?
Oh, well, you know, I know you're going to share my website.
That's right.
specific link to the Women's Right Project and also I love doing the life maps if anyone's
interested. I have trained some others to do that also. I am thinking about creating a
monthly Zoom gathering for people who are interested in the topic of illuminated aging, vivacious
aging, through the expansion of consciousness. I can give you more information about that.
I'm going to see if just in my community if there's an interest there.
And if there is also...
Rick>> I bet you there will be just as a result of this interview.
There will probably be a lot of inquiries.
Make sure you have some kind of email list people can sign up for.
Katie>> Yeah, on my website there's a place to sign up for my newsletter and there's also
a contact me.
Rick>> Good.
Yeah, so if somebody's watching this a few years from now who knows what you might be
doing but go to your website and see what's going on.
Katie>> I'm a baby elder.
I just stepped through the portal, right, and I'm like out in the space, and it hasn't filled
in yet.
It's just like, wow, I don't know what's next.
And I'm open.
I'm befriending the unknown.
And showing up here today with you has been part of that.
Nice.
Well, thanks, Georgette.
I've really enjoyed doing this.
And if I ever get out to Oregon, I'll come and visit you.
And I don't know, I've never been to Oregon.
It's one of the few states I've never been to.
I'd love to come visit and please give Irene a big hug for me too.
Rick>> Will do.
Okay, so thank you everybody who has been watching this.
If you happen to be watching the live one or watch this in the next few days, my next
one will be with a fellow named Thomas LeGrand who has written a book called "The Politics
of Being" about how a lot of things we talked about today, how spirituality is the ultimate
sauce which will make politics a much more wholesome instrument for the well-being of
society.
And I'm just listening to his book now.
Interesting guy, he's been working with the United Nations for a couple of decades, doing
all kinds of cool things, but he has been in Thich Nhat Hanh's community in Plum Village
in France for a long time.
Okay, good.
Talk to you later.
Thanks, everybody.
Thanks, Georgette.
Thank you, Rick.
Bye.
Thank you.