[Music]
Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer. Buddha at the Gas Pump is an ongoing
series of conversations with spiritually awakening people and about spiritual topics. We've done over
700 of these now, so if this is new to you and you'd like to check out previous ones,
please go to batgap.com and look under the interviews menu where you'll see them organized in
several different ways. This program is made possible through the support of appreciative
listeners and viewers. So if you appreciate it and would like to help support it, there
are PayPal buttons on the website and a page explaining alternatives to PayPal. My guest
today is Kim Sheraton. Kim is an award-winning author, naturopath, entrepreneur, and more.
Her focus includes animals, the afterlife, health, the environment, veganism, and all topics related
to compassion for humans and animals alike. She is a highly respected expert on life after death
for animals and much of her time is devoted to rescuing animals, caring for them, and providing
hospice care for elderly animals making their transition to spirit. Kim is the author of
Animals and the Afterlife, there's her book, and the founder of Compassion Circle,
a non-profit organization with a mission to expand the circle of compassion to all beings.
Compassion Circle is comprised of animal rescue, animal sanctuary, and a line of nutritional
products for animals, all proceeds of which help fund the rescue and sanctuary. Kim's goal is to
help make the world a better place, to provide comfort to those grieving the loss of a beloved
animal, and to be a voice for the voiceless, teaching compassion and respect for all beings.
And I just want to read a little blurb from the back of her book.
When Kim grew up with animals as her constant companions, each time she faced the death
of a beloved animal, along with the pain, came the same questions, to which she could
find no answers.
Then, mysterious things began to happen that she couldn't explain, which led her on an
incredible journey to uncover the truth.
Along with her own extraordinary experiences, she compiled heartwarming and meaningful true
stories of everyday people around the world and discovered compelling evidence that forever
erased her own doubts about an afterlife for animals. This book provides enormous comfort
and reassurance to anyone who has ever cherished an animal and food for thought for anyone who
has ever questioned the place of these beloved creatures in the larger scheme of things,
both here on earth and beyond.
Okay, thanks Kim. So Kim has been very busy lately and
She's really been doing backflips to get ready for this interview amidst a million other things she has to do
So I really appreciate your you're doing all that Kim and you don't look like somebody who didn't sleep much last night
Well, I'm glad to hear I had it. Well
You're welcome, it's an honor it's not gonna have you and I really enjoyed your book
I read most of it and I read some of every chapter but all of some chapters and I really enjoyed it
It was full of very uplifting stories and really nice quotes from people like Mahatma Gandhi
and Albert Schweitzer, perhaps he was in there, and others about the importance of how we
treat animals as a barometer or an indicator of the spiritual maturity of our society.
I'm afraid that in many respects that barometer is not very high on its scale yet, but what
you're doing I think is helping to raise it.
doing my part, you know? We all do our part. So let's do the usual biographical thing. I alluded
to it in that little blurb from the back of your book, but take us back, you know, to your childhood
and what got you going on this life's mission that you are now so engaged in. Well, I was always a
really sensitive child, I guess what you would call an HSP. Highly sensitive person. Highly sensitive
person, yes. So I've always felt a connection to animals as long as I can remember. And I
just felt compelled to help them. Like if a bird had fallen out of a tree or whatever,
it was just second nature to do my best to nurse them back to health. So I always definitely felt
a kinship with animals in some ways more than humans. I mean, I was really close with my family,
but as far as other kids, I was often more comfortable just in the presence of the animals.
So yeah, it started really, really early. Simultaneously, I was a very interesting, a very,
I don't know, different, unusual kid. A lot of the kids would be out playing and I'd be studying
things like ghosts and the afterlife and infinity, the universe, you know. I was just very introspective
and so I kind of had those two interests pretty much growing throughout my life from the very
young age, for as long as I can remember actually, right from my earliest, earliest memories.
In fact, my earliest memory is of lying in my crib with this toy that I found disturbing because it
had, it was like a stuffed bunny rabbit, but it had a hard plastic kind of scary human face on it.
And I found it very creepy, so I used to throw it out of my crib. And then my mom would, bless her
heart, I remember she'd come in the room and pick it off the floor and put it back in my crib,
thinking I wanted it and I'm thinking, "No, she doesn't understand! I don't know how to talk yet,
but she doesn't understand. I threw this thing out because it creeps me out." That was probably my
earliest experience with an animal was it had a human face on it. I tend to resonate more with
animals with animal faces. It's amazing you remember that from such a young age. You couldn't
even talk yet. That was the first memory, yep. Aside from an intellectual interest in this kind
of thing, reading about ghosts and the afterlife and the other things you mentioned, did you have
any what we might call mystical experiences as a child? I had a lot. I regularly and still do
have dreams that come true, precognitive dreams. It got to the point where my family would ask me
because they took it seriously because they saw that my dreams would come true.
I would see auras glow around people, I still do. And I remember before getting on an airplane,
I had this sense that I should check everybody's aura who was getting on the plane to make sure
that their aura was intact. And I didn't even know the word aura yet. I just knew that I needed to
make sure that they had this life force glow around them. And if they did, then we'd be safe
getting on the plane. But if they didn't, we shouldn't get on the plane. So for the rest of my
dad's life, rest his soul, he would always ask me, "Are our auras intact before we get on the plane?
Are we good to get on the plane? That's great, especially as the pilots are intact. You want
to know that. Yeah, for sure. And it's interesting, years later, like I think not until I was in
college, I was studying the work of Edgar Cayce, and I learned that he had this same gift or whatever
you call it, and one time he was about to get on an elevator and he saw that none of the people on
the elevator had auras, if I remember the story correctly, and he did not get on the elevator,
and then that elevator crashed and they all passed. So I don't know exactly how to explain that other
than there must be some divine order, which I always come back to, and their souls have already
on some level checked out because they know that their time is up. Yeah, those were early memories.
I've had mystical experience. I've had angelic encounters, sensing presences at the foot of my
bed, lots of profound experiences throughout my early childhood all the way to today.
Did you ever have like a dark night of the soul period, like maybe during your teenage years
where you lost these abilities and got too involved in the world and then they came back? Or did that
never happen to you? You know, there was a point when I was a preteen and a teenager when I had a
lot of dreams in which I saw the death of somebody and it wasn't usually someone that I was particularly
close to. One time it was the next door neighbor who I didn't actually even know personally. And
and another time it was the father of a friend at church.
And I would feel pretty devastated
because I would know it was about to happen.
And yet many times I would have the experience
of having a dream in which someone I knew of
or someone I knew or knew of was about to pass
or in the dream, actually in the dream they had just passed.
And I knew from experience what this meant
was that they were going to pass.
So I would have this dilemma like, okay, well, I know this,
what can I do to prevent this?
It was a real burden.
And then when they inevitably passed,
just as I saw in the dream, I felt heartbroken.
I felt like, why am I seeing this
if I can't do anything to stop it?
I remember my mom called the wife of my pastor
and told her about this.
And I remember what she said.
The pastor's wife, really sweet lady, said,
"Well, it must be a gift from God."
And so I remember grappling with that.
If this is a gift, why is it so painful
and why am I really not able to make a difference?
So I think at that point,
I did turn it off for some years as best I could.
It never went away entirely
because I have this interesting experience
that's happened more times than I can count
where I'm pretty much on the verge of dying,
whether it be a car accident or an earthquake or some sicko,
or in one case, a guy running a tank truck
through a parking lot,
And something will tell me not to be there at that time
that I should have been there.
And I get these warnings.
One time it was a full-blown vision
not to go to the prom with somebody
or I'd die in a car crash and I saw the whole thing.
I saw the future that would have unfolded
had I gone to the prom with this guy
who later passed actually the way that I saw in the vision,
he drove off a cliff.
I can't say I ever turned it off entirely
because even when I tried,
it was always there to save my life.
And so I did have to finally surrender to the fact that,
yes, this is a gift and I'm very grateful for it.
And it must not be my time to go
because I'm always somehow protected
and I'm grateful for that.
One of the things I have had to find peace with,
maybe they call it survivor's guilt, I don't know,
is that when other people are not protected
or prevented from passing,
what I've really concluded is that means it was their time
and on some level, some sole contract
they had already agreed to or planned
it was already ordained or whatever to pass when they did. That's how I've found peace
with that, particularly with close loved ones in my own life. When you lose someone really
close to you, that's, I think, the only way you can find peace with it is to know that
they're okay, you will see them again, and it was their time.
Jared Yeah. If one reads your book, there's just
so many stories that reaffirm the notion that we don't die when the body dies. It's more
like casting off a worn-out garment, as the Bhagavad Gita puts it. And the Gita says, "What
grief is there in this?" You know, it's like you're changing clothes.
Jodie Right, yes. Yes.
Pete But still, you know, we're human beings and
we have human emotions and it probably is a little unnatural to get all cold and philosophical
about it if someone or some animal very dear to us dies. It's natural to grieve.
Jodie I think it's impossible to get cold and philosophical
about it, I guess, unless you're a sociopath. But for the other 96% of us, we do the best
we can and I think we use all of this information, which is what I've done with my research,
to provide as much comfort as we can knowing that grieving will still take place and that
is a necessary, a very painful but necessary part of the human experience.
And I do also think that there's strength in numbers, so to speak.
In other words, if someone has been through something traumatic and then you go through
something traumatic, there's some kind of a bonding that takes place.
I know that for me, I've found comfort from others who have been there and get it.
And I try my best to be that person for other people who are going through it.
You know, in many cases with animals, losing a pet, that's that person's best friend in
the whole world.
That's the person who was there.
That's the person who didn't argue or fight back or take advantage.
That's the person who was just there to love unconditionally.
And then when that person, that person in fur or feathers or fins or whatever is gone, it's
absolutely devastating and I acknowledge that.
And anything I can do to help someone going through that, I'm on it.
That's great.
You know, as I was reading your book, I was impressed by the intensity with which you
have loved your pets and also the intensity with which you grieved when they died.
And I think that somehow correlates with what you were just saying about how you've had
this subtle perception all your life of seeing auras and sensing future events and all that
stuff, perhaps it's kind of natural. If they're as sensitive perceptually as you are, perhaps
that's indicative of a very open heart, which is capable of both loving and grieving deeply.
- Well said. Every time a new animal comes into my life, I do think to myself, "Okay,
"Here comes another future broken heart, but I'm going to love them to pieces anyway."
And ultimately, it is worth it, even though sometimes it's hard. Yeah, it's hard, you know?
There's no other word for it. It's hard, but it's rewarding. And I really wouldn't, well,
I shouldn't say I wouldn't have it any other way. I would. I would have it that no one ever died,
but, you know, in this realm, or, you know what I mean? But seriously, the love is so worth it
every single time.
Pete: Well, it would get kind of crowded if no one ever died.
Sarah: This is true. I've grappled with that in my mind also.
Pete: Yeah.
Sarah: I hear about the immortalists talking about living forever, I'm thinking, well,
that's not really practical A, and B, at this point I know way too much about the afterlife
to be that excited about staying here forever.
Pete: I once had a spiritual teacher who said, he was talking about immortality and he said,
"After all, if we want to be immortal, there must be much better bodies than these in which to do it."
Oh, well said. So true. And the spirit body that we and all of our animal friends end
up with are way better and they don't have all the aches and the pains and the emotional
torment that we can all go through on this plane, for sure. And you know, back to what
you're asking about A Dark Night of the Soul, I did have another one as an adult, and that
was when I had a missing pet. And I felt responsible for her getting loose. And I enlisted a whole
bunch of professional animal communicators to help me to find her and it was an amazing experience
that I will write about in a future book. But in the end, it turned out that she had passed
and she wasn't missing. She hadn't gotten loose or she had passed. And then I was grappling with
and I talked to the professional animal communicators about this and that was before
I understood that because they're tuning into the spirit of the animal, they don't always know that
the animal is out of body either. If that little being is still around describing exactly what's
going on, they're still around describing exactly what's going on, they are still involved, it's
just we don't see them. It was an interesting time. It was like, "Oh my God, everything I
thought I believed and now they weren't even here." But later I kind of came all the way around to,
that gave me an actually a deeper understanding of how things work.
I see. So you were saying that you began to doubt the animal communicators because they were getting
messages from this pet and it turned out the pet had deceased.
Had deceased, yes.
And so you thought they were phonies or something.
Well, I was like, "Well, how come they didn't know that she had passed?"
And that's when I had a conversation with each of them.
But before I had that conversation, I was, "I've been going down this path and
she's been dead this whole time and she's been right here.
You know, she's been right here. She didn't go anywhere. She's just dead."
Anyway, it was a bizarre experience, but one I think I needed to have so I could
communicate even better that this is a gift of the spirit.
- And there are a number of accounts of animal communicators in your book which make at least
some of them seem really quite legitimate and accurate in what they do.
- Absolutely, profoundly, profoundly accurate. And I will say there are some who actually have a,
you know, we all have gifts in different areas and there have been particular animal communicators.
Of course, all of the ones in my books are amazing. And at the time that this animal went
missing. It was after my book came out and none of them were available because after my book came
out, they all got even busier. So, I had to start fresh with new animal communicants who I wasn't as
familiar with. So, I think that played a role in that whole dark night of the soul I went through
as well. But I will say, yes, it's a true gift that they have for sure. And some of them have
more of a gift toward being able to discern whether an animal is in spirit or in the body.
and some of those are actually specialized in finding lost pets. And that's a true gift because
I mean, my goodness, what a horrible experience to go through when someone loses a loved one,
whether animal or human, and they don't know where they are. There's no closure. There's
just this constant tumultuous, heartbreaking, unchecked box, like, where are they? So anyone
who goes through that with people and does that work, I just have the utmost respect for.
Jeffrey Yeah, talk about not being able to sleep.
It would be hard to go to bed at night.
Angela Yeah, for sure.
Jeffrey And it sounded like you were fairly rigorous in
testing these animal communicators. You know, you matched them against each other and did various,
it was almost like a scientific experiment sometimes to winnow out the more accurate ones.
Angela Absolutely. Even though I've always had these very profound spiritual experiences,
I'm a very logical-minded, OCD, no-stone-left-unturned, thinker-analyzer personality type who doesn't
just take things at face value.
They say a sucker's born every minute.
I was like the off-minute because I'm the one who's always suspicious and testing and
so forth.
So I think that was good I was actually put in this role in life because, one, I can really
be there to test and make sure that this is legit.
I'm not going to put anything out there as it may seem unless I've really tested it to the utmost and be I think for me
Personally it has helped me to have these otherworldly
Experiences so often in my life because I hate to say it
But I'm one of those people if I didn't experience any of this myself, I wouldn't believe it
So I kind of have that duality within me that real strong skeptic along with that personal. Okay?
Well, I can explain this way all I want but this is what's happening right in front of my eyes
So, I think it's a real balance. I consider it a gift for which I'm grateful.
Petey - I think that's really what our society needs more than anything is a balance of the
scientific and the mystical, if we want to call it the mystical for lack of a better
word because we're way too top-heavy on the scientific these days and mystics are dismissed
by the scientific types as being nutcases, I guess, you know, like unrealistic people.
Obviously, as your book discusses and many other people discuss, there are many realities
to this universe that the scientists don't have the tools to investigate, and they kind
of need the mystics if they really want to understand, or if we as a species want to really
understand what makes the universe tick.
We need both, and there's no reason they can't be collaborators rather than opponents.
>> I couldn't agree more. And I think the interesting thing, or the irony, or whatever you want to call
it, is that someday when all these scientific types pass away, and the body is gone and
decomposing, and they're in this whole vast universe, this whole spiritual realm, they're
going to realize that they were kind of in many ways the ignorant ones, and the thing they poo-pooed
is reality, ultimately. And they just knew tiny bits about a tiny piece of reality,
and so much was missed. Oh yeah, I have a good friend named Curtis. We have these long, friendly
debates, and he's pretty much an atheist, although kind of open-minded, but basically he's pretty
convinced that when you die, that's it, lights out, and I am the complete opposite. So we have
these lively debates, and I keep trying to think of what evidence is there that I could present to
him that would put a crack in his conviction, but I ultimately end up saying, "Well, don't worry,
Curtis, you know, when you die, you'll be pleasantly surprised. You know, you say,
"God, I should get in touch with Rick and tell him he was right."
Yeah, totally. Maybe he will. You never know. It's interesting. But, you know, I try to tell people,
I mean, skeptical people, you know, it doesn't matter what you tell them. If they've made their
mind up, they've made their mind up. It's like banging your head against the wall. However,
at this point, there's so much evidence. There's so many categories, you know, we talk about
mediums, we talk about animal communicators, we talk about personal experience, visions, etc.
But NDEs, yes, near-death experiences, there is so much, so much in those experiences that cannot be
just explained away or dismissed when you think about, you know, the people who are floating
outside of their bodies and they're seeing what's going on. They're describing the, "Oh,
they let you sew the syringe up inside of my body," or whatever. "I saw you drop your pen
under the thing and then..." - "There's a red sneaker on the roof of the hospital."
- "There's a red sneaker, exactly." And then they come back in their body, they describe these
these things, they're still on the bed and those things happened and those things are
true. And there's absolutely no way they could have known that unless they were out of their
body actually witnessing these things. And so that right there, how is an atheist or
whatever going to explain that away? I mean, they'll probably try to find ways, but it's
like, come on, there comes a point where we need to acknowledge that there's a bigger picture.
And also we're so intricately created, the way the body's put together and the lungs
to breathe and that, I mean, for this to all be random just blows my mind. To me, that would be
much harder to wrap one's mind around when you really start looking into the grand design,
the divine design of our world.
Pete You're singing my song. I love this topic.
It's almost like God is hiding in plain sight if we just have the eyes to see and the insight to
accept what we're seeing. You've probably heard of the idea of fine-tuning of the universe,
how there are a whole bunch of different variables that if they're off by just a fraction of a
percent, we either wouldn't have a universe, or it wouldn't have life, or things like that.
Scientists, when they look at that, they come up with the notion of a multiverse,
because they said, "Okay, well, there must be an infinite number of universes, and we just
happen to have lucked out to be in the one where all these variables were just right,
and the odds of them being just right are astronomically small." And that's kind of
of their cop-out that, "Well, there must be a lot of universes and all the other ones
are duds and we lucked out."
Kind of a desperate attempt to avoid admitting that there's some kind of intelligence orchestrating
everything.
Well said, and it actually sounds desperate to me, but, you know, whatever keeps them
comfortable in their paradigm.
Yeah.
Back to what I was saying also about the design of us, I'm often struck because of all the
animal rescue work I do, from time to time I see animal x-rays and to see their little
bodies look so much like ours, right down to the lungs. I mean, there are differences,
obviously, but I see the little spine and the legs. They're like little miniature, in
some cases large, like horses or whatever, you know, versions of us. And that is coupled
with my experience with them, being with them, being in their presence, looking in their
their eyes and seeing how they behave and seeing things they do that are not just survival,
not just instinct, but seeing one animal go out of their way to assist another animal,
an ailing animal, an elderly animal, whatever, for no personal gain other than to help this
other animal.
It's just a grand design.
Yeah, tell that story from your book about where there was an old rat and she couldn't
see or move very well or anything.
Yes, Madeline.
And then this other rat brought her all these banana slices and guarded it so she could eat them.
Yes. I just told the story, but go ahead and embellish it.
No, no, you told it well. Thank you. I didn't have to test you. Did you read the book?
I pretty much did, yeah.
That was just one example of many. The older rat couldn't get around as readily, and so the younger
rat would grab her all the, actually the best slices, the most choice slices of banana, and
run and put them there. And yeah, and stand guard right in front to make sure she could eat enough
without any of the less honorable little creatures coming to take her stash. And I see those
types of things again and again. And it touches my heart. And yeah, it's like the God within
all things, you know, the love, you just see that in all creatures. And it's so rewarding
to be getting to know these other little creatures and to have a level of connection and communication
that goes beyond human speech. And I think that's one of the things that does bond us
with them. It helps us to get more in touch with our spiritual aspect when we don't have
words in the way. I mean, think about all the times humans have had misunderstandings,
whether verbally or emails, you know, "Well, I didn't mean to have a tone in my email,"
or whatever. And with animals, that's all stripped away. And it's just pure bonding,
pure connection. And it's a beautiful part of life. And that's another part of life that
that I think a lot of the really serious scientific types
are missing out on.
Obviously some have a dog or cat or whatnot in their life,
but for many, there's just never been that connection.
And it's like that one quote,
"Until one has loved an animal,
a part of one's soul remains unawakened."
And I think that's true.
I think it's a part of life
that a lot of people have missed out on.
But thank God a lot of people have that.
And I think that is what gets a lot of people through life.
You know, enough humans let you down.
you're sure glad to have your beloved animal companions in your life.
Yeah.
To quote the Bhagavad Gita again, there's a verse which says that the enlightened being
sees the self in all beings and all beings in the self.
The second part of it means the self is so universal that we're all contained in it like
fish in water.
But the self in all beings, you look into the eyes of a dog or a cat or a rat or something
and basically you see yourself.
Yeah.
more similar than we are different for sure. For sure. Our essence is completely the same.
Yes. Kind of like there's a verse from light that is one though the lamps be many.
Well said, I like that. It's a line from the incredible string band which was before your time
I'm sure. I'll have to look them up. From the 60s. I had a couple of interviews with a woman who's an
animal communicator and very good at it, Anna Breitenbach if you've heard of her. She's from
South Africa originally. And we had this little debate, which we never resolved, in which
she was asserting that there's no hierarchy, that all levels, all beings are kind of like
of equal value. And I said, "Well, what about, let's say, in Africa, children are
dying of malaria, and we want to do what we can to control the mosquito population so
kids don't get malaria so much? Is the life of a child more valuable than the life of
mosquito and she couldn't agree that it was. And it's funny because my last time I interviewed her
she had like a a stye or an eye infection of some kind and she was taking antibiotics and putting
an ointment on there and I thought I didn't think to say it but I thought how about those little
bacteria they're biting the dust for the benefit of her eye. What do you think about that the whole
idea that there are levels of evolution and in some respects, perhaps, the more complex
forms of life are, it's like God has more invested in them than it does in the simpler
forms of life.
Angela: You know, I've grappled with that one a lot and here's where I'm at currently
with that. I don't see a hierarchy, I'll say that for number one. Like, in other words,
I know a lot of rats or dogs or cats or whatnot, or fish, who I feel, and I see a greater spiritual
evolution in than some, well, a lot of humans I've had experiences with.
So on that level, I don't see a hierarchy.
However, as far as you're talking about bacteria and mosquitoes, and I had my own experience
with bedbugs, and I will admit to the world that I allowed the bedbugs to starve.
I didn't feed them.
blood feast that they live on. I actually had to move out of the bedroom for over a year,
but anyway, that's another story. But the way I see it, if you look at it biblically,
don't kill or eat creatures with the lifeblood in them, my interpretation of that is very
different than what historical humans did. They saw that to mean you just bleed someone
alive, you know, gut them and bleed them alive in front of the other terrified animals and
then eat them. I see that as animals who don't really have blood like us in the first place.
So then that does bring to mind certain creatures that are different from us.
So yeah, do evolved and evolving souls like us and our animal friends, do they inhabit
bedbugs?
I don't know.
I mean, I think that the life of a person or an animal is more important than the bacteria
that you're using, antibiotics or whatever you're using to kill.
I don't know if that's clear what I'm saying, but I'm kind of wrapping around to saying I
I agree with you.
Petey It is sort of a hierarchical consideration,
although there are kind of negative implications to the word hierarchy, you know, and that
notion has been abused a lot to justify a lot of mistreatment of animals.
Nicole Yes. And of different groups.
Petey Absolutely.
Nicole Races or women, you know, like the early
rabbis, the things they said about women, don't be in their presence, you know, you
might as well be killed if you entrust any spiritual knowledge to them and so forth.
And so, sorry, I'm grossly misquoting that, but you get the idea.
Pete – I know what you mean, yeah.
Sarah – Throughout history.
Pete – All sorts of egregious examples.
Sarah – Yes, yes.
Pete – That spiritual teacher I alluded to earlier also once said, "If you have to
eat somebody, eat lesser evolved life."
I think what he was getting at is, you know, a cabbage is less evolved than a chicken, or
certainly than a cow, and whatever.
So, he was advocating vegetarianism basically there.
Yeah, and I agree with that.
Like, I've always said, you know, the day my broccoli screams and tries to run away from
me is the day I stop eating broccoli.
Yeah.
And to take that one step further, actually, like the secret life of plants and all of
that type of research, when you think about it, the plants, when they know that, at least
from the research I've looked at, I'm no expert on this, when the plants know that a person
is about to come in and do them harm, they will put themselves in, I guess, what we would
consider a coma, they'll like check out. Whereas the sentient beings among us, you know, the
humans and the animals, we don't tend to have that luxury. There is the suffering and the
torment and I think that's the difference. If we don't want to contribute to suffering,
then we just take a look at that with our every choice.
Which reminds me actually of what you said about people getting on an airplane who didn't
have an aura or on an elevator. It's like in a sense that they somehow have checked out.
some kind of premonition that they weren't even aware of themselves, but there was some
kind of a checkout process.
And I've also heard of people, like in car accidents, who felt like just before impact
they rose above their body or something and were out of it when the actual trauma injury
happened.
Yes, yes, I've heard cases of that as well, and I've spoken with people who've had that
experience.
You know, there are multiple levels in this, and I think we, as human beings as we are right
now only make the best choices we can with what's in front of us. And most people don't
see auras checking out or not, and so we consider that when there's a sense of being in front
of us, we treat them the way that we would expect to be treated. And yet, at the same
time when we're in the experience of grieving, to remind ourselves that there is some kind
of divine order.
Pete Yeah. As we talk, feel free to sprinkle our
conversation with stories from your book because there's so many good stories in there, and
if anything we're talking about reminds you of a story that helps to illustrate the point
we're making, then just go for it and bring that up.
Okay, awesome.
Thank you.
Any now come to mind?
The chapter I have on people having actual visitations where people see the animal come
visit them, and I've had many experiences.
The one I've had quite often is feeling the animal, like jumping on the bed and so forth,
which is a real common one as well.
It's a reminder to me that even when people have checked out, it's not like some people
"Oh, they're now living in bliss."
How's that gonna help somebody who's grieving the loss of an animal, really?
Or a person, you know?
And I've had some major human losses in my life that I will write about at some point.
That was a whole 'nother dark night of the soul that I'm probably still coming out of.
And the thing is, that doesn't help anybody, and I don't even think it's true.
In my experience, when people and animals pass,
and often when I say people, I mean animals, I'm trying to clarify here,
because to me, they are people, they're just people with different costumes on.
They don't usually just move on.
In my experience, they stick around at least long enough to try to let us know that they're
around.
We don't always get it because when we're grieving, it really does tend to put up a
wall that can make it harder for us to see what's right there.
But they do, in my experience, try to find some way to let us know that they're okay.
Because they do still care about us.
There still is that connection.
Leaving the body doesn't change the perception at all.
I mean, I've had my own out-of-body experiences.
And I remember the first time I had a waking one,
I think I believe we have them often when we're asleep,
but my first waking one,
where I consciously felt myself leaving my body,
I remember I still felt a little bit nervous,
like, oh my gosh, you know, I was still me,
I was still totally me.
So there's still totally them.
And there are experiences where people actually see them.
Some people have the gift so they can see "ghosts" more readily than others.
I have a good friend who has that gift.
It scares her, but I always tell her I'm jealous of her.
I wish I had that gift.
But a couple of things.
One of them is that, A, if you don't have this experience, it doesn't mean they're not
trying to let you know that they're okay.
It doesn't mean they're not around.
It just means maybe you've got a wall up because you're just so deep in grief.
And I've been there.
they will find someone else to let us know that they're still around and they're okay.
And when it comes to an animal, one of the biggest things we need to hear, and I'm talking
about myself here just as much as anyone else, we need to know we made the right end of life
decisions because that's never easy. It's never easy. Maybe it is for some. I've never
had it be easy. And I've been at the bedside of, at this point, literally hundreds of beings,
really close humans and hundreds of animals. And we need to know that they're around and
they are. And whether it be a professional animal communicator or a medium, as I talk
about in my book, whether it be an outside person who has to bring us that message or
whether we get that contact ourself, they really are letting us know. And what I was
starting to say when I went off on a tangent was the number one thing I do believe we do
need to know is that we made the right decision, that we didn't mess up. We're not the reason
they died were not the reason they suffered. Every step of the way, we did the best we
could in the moment, and they know that. And they're not in that moment anymore. I think
one of the biggest things we need to do is get ourselves out of that moment and remind
ourselves that they're not in it. Even if it looked horrendous at one point, it was
just that time, and it's long in their history now, and they feel great. They're in their
spirit bodies. And spirit bodies don't hurt, which is wonderful.
Yeah, we've had a few pets that we felt afterwards that we had dragged it out too long, you know,
before having them euthanized and that, you know, obviously they wouldn't have remained
alive in the wild, although domesticated animals wouldn't anyway, but it's like, what were
we thinking?
They were just so far gone and blind and walking around in circles and we should have just
put them down, but it was so hard to do that.
But we didn't beat ourselves up afterwards for not having done it because we felt, okay,
They're in a good place and maybe we should live and learn maybe next time. We'll you know, not drag it out
So long good for you for not beating yourselves up. You know, that's something I'm actually still working on
Yeah, they say you teach what you most need to learn
I'm still working on that one Dakota woulda should is you know, that's something I'm still trying to banish from my world
Well, I'm still beating myself up over my childhood dog that I got when I was like 12 or 13
She was a constant companion and yeah, I can tell you stories about how close we were
But at a certain point I was a little older in my early 20s and a spiritual teacher had said that
Don't be that close with animals. They drain your energy and I believed it. So I just started behaving very aloof toward the dog
It's a whole different mindset and one evening
I was going for a walk with friends and I saw my dog
Sitting a couple hundred yards away in a neighbor's yard just sitting there like forlorn and I thought oh my god
And what have I done? So I can like I completely like, you know
Please forgive me
It's weird, yeah, this is like over 50 years ago
But it still comes to mind sometimes and you know, I wish I had been more sensitive or something
You know, we're on our journey. We all have our regrets
Regrets are rough, but we all do the best we can in the moment
And you know that also brings to mind a lot of spiritual teachers in various religions religions and philosophical beliefs
I've had some people come to me who were told some horrible things
That can't help anybody and I'm thinking who is this person this human being I don't care how enlightened they think they are
They're not very enlightened at all. If they're saying something to somebody that is so obviously hurtful like oh
"Oh, there's no afterlife for pets, you'll never see your dog again."
What kind of a human... I'm sorry.
Or someone gets cancer and they say, "Oh, it must be their karma."
It must be their karma, yeah.
Okay, well, if that's the case, and everyone has bad karma, because you stick around long enough,
just about everyone ends up with cancer. So the ones who got it early,
that must mean they had good karma, because they got to go home sooner.
- [laughs] - So there.
To all the people who say that.
People need to be sensitive to other people, and I truly believe that,
I don't care how enlightened somebody thinks they are, to have that lack of compassion,
even if they believe it.
Okay, let's say some spiritual teacher really believes that there's no afterlife for animals.
Let's say they really believe it.
If they're enlightened, they're still not going to say that to somebody who lost a pet.
Because I mean, compassion 101, hello, you know, compassion is a key component of love,
and that's all missing.
So, in my book, write them off.
They're not a good spiritual teacher anymore.
I know the one you mentioned, that was a whole different topic, but that just brought this
to mind because this has come up a lot from people in various religions, or that the animals
are going to a different place, or that they're going to reincarnate immediately in some other
form and they'll never see them again.
All of these things I've heard.
I will say right now, from my research, none of it's true.
You know, we're souls and we form bonds and those bonds don't end when we pass.
Some people have their pets waiting for them when they pass.
Other pets return to do some more time with them here on the plane because they love them
so much and most of them tend to have shorter lifespans than we do.
And there have been many cases of animals coming back.
I've had the experience and many others have and I do talk about that in my book as well.
Some have criticized my book for that topic, for saying animals reincarnate, but I'm happy
to debate them over this because there's, and I don't care what religion, there's biblical
evidence of reincarnation, and I have a background in Christianity and a lot of biblical studies,
and I'm very familiar with the scriptures and the various interpretations and misinterpretations
and the original Hebrew and the original Greek and so forth. So, I say that just to let people
know I don't feel that we should let any "religion" scare us away from believing what's right
in front of our own eyes. The evidence that animals do sometimes come back to us is completely
overwhelming, and at this point, I'm comfortable admitting that publicly.
Pete: Sure.
Sarah: Again, going back to what we talked about at the beginning of the conversation,
I wouldn't put something out there and put my reputation on it unless I had seen enough
evidence to really be able to stand behind it. And I mean, what kind of a, you know,
God is love. Of course, God loves us. And if God has brought this beautiful creature
into our lives to bring us love that perhaps we never got from another human being and
that animal passes and does return in another form to us.
And that seems like a beautiful gift from God.
And I've had many people who've had this experience and it ran counter to their religion
and they were confused by it.
So I feel it's important to address that.
It's nothing to be confused by, that's what love would do.
It's like, what would love do?
What would compassion do?
And that's not to say that they always come back to us, it's just to say that there are
times when they do, when it's on their life journey as well.
But regardless, I do believe 100% that that reunion will happen, whether it's here or in
the afterlife.
Pete: Yeah, I'm afraid that many religions have become perhaps very distorted from what
they started out to be.
Kirsten: Yes.
Pete: You know, like some great sage like Jesus or somebody comes out and has a very
pure teaching and then it's like the party game of telephone, it gets passed around and
around and around and around until it bears little resemblance to what was originally
said.
true and I feel that in some ways this breaks God's heart. I see that, I mean, and I've had a very
personal relationship with Jesus. He actually showed up at the foot of my bed at a point in
my life when I didn't even believe He existed. That is one compassionate being who really would
not stand behind a lot of what's being said and done in His name. And yeah, Jesus rocks,
and I think that if people understood His message better, we would have a much more
compassionate world.
Pete: That reminds me of Jesus saves, Moses invests.
[Laughter]
I interviewed a wonderful woman named Lorna Byrne. You may have heard of her, she's Irish
and she's been seeing angels all of her life. She grew up in Ireland, very Catholic upbringing.
She insisted during the interview that animals don't have souls. And I didn't want to get
into a big argument with her, but I felt at the time and still do that she probably just
pick that up from her Catholicism, which I guess they say. I'm not an expert on Catholicism,
but apparently that's a Christian misbelief that somehow crept into the doctrine. But anyway,
to address that issue, how about if you try to define what a soul is to the best of your
understanding and experience?
Sarah: The soul is, I believe, the part that animates us and that is still very much here
and very much the same. Some people divide it between spirit, soul, and person, or in
this case, animal. I believe we have a higher self that kind of is already living in the
heavenly realm in some ways, and then we have the soul. And different people switch the
terms. Some people say soul is one and spirit's the other. Some people say spirit's one and
soul is the other. But just for the purpose of general conversation, the way most people
communicate it is that the soul is the part that lifts up out of the body when the body
passes.
>> Like the dweller in the body, could you say that?
>> Dweller, yes, the dweller, I like that. And back to what you were saying, yes, I have
had people come to me in tears after a Catholic priest told them that their beloved pet wouldn't
go to heaven. And I thought, my goodness, what a horrible thing to say to somebody.
A man of God, and God is love, and Jesus is love and compassion for all creatures, the
least of these, so to speak, which in many ways are the greatest of these, in my opinion,
it's mind-boggling that somebody would say that to somebody. And it's also interesting that one of
the most famous Catholics that we all know of is St. Francis. And St. Francis was like the original
animal communicator. And he used to go telepathically with animals and he tamed the wolf.
And he used to preach the gospel to fish. He'd be out in a boat and the fish would look up above
the water. And I have a fish rescue, so I often think of that when I'm communicating with the fish.
he would preach the gospel to them to save their souls. And a really devout Catholic,
like St. Francis, very evolved soul in many ways, he obviously saw that they had souls that go on,
or he wouldn't be preaching the gospel to them. Yeah, there's just been so many misinterpretations
by humans. For ego, I don't know what it is. I really don't, for whatever the reasons are.
But once compassion is out the door, I think it's time to find a new church or
a new spiritual teacher.
Or in your religion, yeah. I suppose that one reason people come up with these ideas is that it helps to absolve them of guilt for the way they treat or mistreat animals.
Thank you! Yes, that's huge.
I mean, Descartes, you know, René Descartes, he said animals are like mechanisms, they don't even feel anything, and they would do vivisection on animals, and the screaming of the animal, he would say it was like the squeaking of a machine or something that was going on. Just crazy.
I just heard a talk the other day where they were debating whether animals are conscious.
I don't even know what they mean by consciousness because obviously a mouse can see things and
that necessitates consciousness.
So people just have funny ideas about things.
And you're right, I believe it is to justify their own behavior.
Whether it's an addiction to meat or good money they're making in animal research or
whatever they believe, or looking for a cure for a nutritionally caused disease rather
than saving two animals with one mission by not eating those animals in the first place.
But yeah, I do think finding justification is a big part of it. And it's a shame there
really is that disconnect. But I understand it. I have compassion even for the people
who do that because I understand on some level there is some part of them that must feel
so, so bad about what they're doing. Maybe it's suppressed, or maybe they're a sociopath
and they don't. But for the other 96%, maybe they feel so bad about what they're doing
on some level that they've pushed it down and had to build up these justifications to
find peace with whatever it is they're engaging in that on some level they feel does contribute
to unnecessary cruelty. And I don't think cruelty is ever necessary.
Pete: Forgive them, Father, they know not what they do.
Angela: Yes.
Pete: Okay, some more on souls. You said something a minute ago that piqued my interest, and
I've heard this from various sources that it's like we don't even fully incarnate here.
We maybe incarnate 25% or something and the higher self or some greater part of our soul
is still in some kind of astral or celestial realm or something and just a small portion
of it is being represented or animating our body here.
Some have even said that the soul could actually be in several bodies or at least two or something
at the same time and yet some of it's still in some higher realm.
I'm, again, no expert on that particular avenue, but I will say from what I've looked at, that
does feel like, and just from the stories and the information I've compiled, it feels
like we all still do have a foot in the other realm, and I do feel that communicating that
is a higher self.
The part of us, maybe the wisdom inside of us that helps us, the peace of God within
us, I don't know if I'm wording that right at all, or the peace of us that is still with
God maybe is a better way to say it. Even though God's everywhere, God, you know, if you believe
in the heavenly throne of God, a part of us is there perhaps. Again, I'm not an expert on this,
it just feels right because I do know that when I did my work, my experimenting with intentional
out-of-body experience, when I was there, it was me and God or God and me. That was my experience.
It felt like there was a part of me that had already been there with God.
some of these things it's hard to put into words, so I'm sorry if I'm stumbling right now a bit.
Pete I think people get a sense of what you're saying. A related question,
and this actually came up in my last interview, on the notion of reincarnation, which we've been
talking about, if all beings have souls and souls reincarnate from one body to another and perhaps
move up the evolutionary chain and eventually become humans or something, if maybe you don't
agree with that, but it seems to me that there are a lot more of lower life forms than there
are higher life forms.
For instance, here in our yard, there are probably 10,000 earthworms and trillions of
little bacteria and a lot of bugs and a bunch of birds outside, but there's only two humans
here.
And the whole earth is like that.
So I wonder how the math works out, or whether perhaps as souls evolve, they conglomerate
just as our body is a collection of trillions of cells, each of which has its own life,
and perhaps in some sense has its own soul, perhaps souls can conglomerate in order to
form more complex beings.
Do you have any thoughts on that?
That's not something I've looked into a lot.
I do plan to, because the subject of insects does actually come up a lot, so it's something
I've only just begun looking into a little bit lately, or, you know, focusing more of
my attention on.
But what you're saying I do think does make a lot of sense, and I know a lot of professional
animal communicators who, they do this full-time, and very respected ones who I've known for
many, many years, have talked about a group soul, like some species on some level there's
a group soul that they're all a part of.
Maybe in the case of like a colony of ants, I'm just...
Yeah, or hive of bees, or...
Yeah.
A swarm of starlings, or...
Right, yeah.
Or a colony of bedbugs, I hate to say.
That's something I recommend
Life experience I would have preferred to have done without
Because their only purpose is to suck blood
That's what they do
Cartoon there these two dung beetles at the dung beetle bar and they're sitting at the bar and the bartender is also a dung beetle and
One dung beetle says to the bartender. So Louie, is this all there is to life eat shit and die
Louis says something like, "Yeah, that's about it."
That's funny, but yeah, it makes a lot of sense.
I'm going to just answer this not as an expert, but just as an observer and say that that makes
a lot of sense to me.
Remind us of what makes a lot of sense.
What are we referring to here?
The conglomeration of souls?
The conglomeration.
Right.
Yeah, like let's say a whole colony of ants decides to do something else next time.
I don't know.
I mean, that makes sense because there are a lot of them.
We are outnumbered.
And spiders, you know, where do they fit in?
Alright, we're getting out there a little bit, aren't we?
A lot of this is very speculative.
It reminds me of a quote that I heard recently, I've mentioned it in a few interviews.
It was from Aldous Huxley, and he said that the greatest innovation of the scientific revolution
was the development of the working hypothesis.
And I really like that because, you know, prior to the scientific revolution,
dogmatism dominated society, and people could be burned at the stake
for disagreeing with the prevailing dogma. And the scientific revolution kind of broke through that.
Even now, of course, many scientists aren't really scientists because they're dogmatic and they
refuse to consider certain possibilities as working hypotheses. They just think they know
what the truth is and won't even look at the evidence for something that contradicts it.
But personally, I like to try to live my life that way, so anything anybody proposes to me,
I don't say absolutely or absolutely not. I say interesting, you know, let's see where the evidence lies, you know, how much
Justification or support is this for this particular idea?
I like to just it echo on what you said I feel the same way with a lot of things
I'm open to hearing people's impression or experience and so forth
And I don't pretend to be an expert on all of this
I'm I guess considered an expert on just a little piece of it that I have a lot of experience with and
That kind of wraps down to the more in some ways mundane
But when we're here on the earth plane
It's the most profound thing in the world and that is just knowing that those we love and we have these deep
Love bonds with that that love continues and that that being we love continues. I know that for me when I lost
Well, I've had a number of really bad losses
One of the worst things I found that people could say to me bless their hearts out of the goodness of their hearts with something
like oh
His spirit is everywhere now or he's among the stars or there's something about the grieving heart that
Doesn't want to hear that the grieving heart wants to hear that he's still him and he's still around, you know
And he still remembers me and not only does the grieving heart need to hear that
But from everything I've seen in my research, that's absolutely true. I mean that is so true
They do still care about us
They are still part of our life and we are still part of their life and that bond is not broken at death
They haven't become some in my opinion. Well, I shouldn't say my opinion. This is my experience
They haven't become some star or some piece of the universe or whatever. They're still them
Yeah, I think we really need to hear that while we're here. We need you
I don't really have any experience like you do but in my bones I feel like that's the way it is
There's a line from Star Wars where obi-wan Kenobi said to Darth Vader if you strike me down
I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine
Which is to say I'm still gonna be around dude
Yeah, I like it. I love it and it's true and they are still around. I mean, they're so still around
The stories I could tell what I mean
For those who don't know I run the rat refuge
So I've rescued and sanctuary at a lot of rats in my day for those who don't know and thank you
I could show you some really cute pictures and then that you would quickly turn to all
But just really quickly to bring those up to speed who don't know. They're like a combination of cats and dogs
They're very clean and very quiet
like cats
But they're super playful and personable like dogs, you know, like pick me up pick me up play with me wrestle, you know
And they're smart. Very smart. I would say if they were as big as us, they'd probably have
taken over the world by now. And they're very clean. And just real quick, I always put a plug
in for the rats because I have gotten some criticism for including rats in my book, but that's a huge
part of my life story. And actually, it was the death of a rat that precipitated all of my research
on this and the fact that this book was even written. That's all owed to a rat named June.
So, acknowledgement to June.
They preen themselves like cats do, right?
They do, they do all that. Yeah, yeah.
Okay, so this was a rat, his name was Mr. William.
He was very skittish and shy, he came from a very abusive background,
and so it took him a while to warm up.
He was always kind of skittish, but toward the end of his life,
he finally bonded and he learned to trust, and he'd let me pick him up, and he was so sweet.
And after he passed, sometimes they try to find different ways,
and his spirit knocked something off the wall, a picture, and it actually broke. And my husband,
Jameis, he used to always impersonate the, or my late husband, but I will talk about that in
the future, he used to impersonate the rats, and he'd say, "Ah, I'm sorry, Mom, I didn't mean to
knock the picture off the wall." And it was really cute. Now, the skeptics listening in are going to
say, "How do you know the rat knocked the picture off the wall? Pictures fall off walls, you know."
Right, but the thing is they'll often find something that they did in their life. At least that's been
my experience. And do it again. And he was the one who was always like knocking things off and
they would accidentally break. I don't know, it was one of those cute little snippets in life where
that's exactly what happened even after he passed. He knocked something off and it broke. Stories
like those are the ones that you have to have a personal experience with. That's why in my research
I'd like to definitely focus on the stories that are more
Indisputable for example, I think the most profound stories in that arena would be
people who witness the actual
ghost
Of an animal who has passed
And they're not grieving themselves because a lot of people will say oh that was a hallucination conjured up by a grieving mind to comfort you
Okay valid that's valid if someone wants to say that I don't think it's true
not in my experience, but that's a valid excuse or explaining way. And I can agree with that if that
were it. But there have been many cases. There's one story in particular, I do believe I cover this
one in the book. Their dog passed and they hadn't really told many people yet. And a complete
stranger was visiting in the kitchen, saw this beautiful, I believe it was a golden retriever,
if I'm not mistaken, if I remember correctly, and was petting the dog. The other person was in the
shower, came out of the shower, and the visitor said, "Oh, I was just petting your dog. She's
so beautiful." And then the other person says, "What dog? What do you mean?" And the house
guest says, "Well, the dog that was just in here," and describes the dog. And the person
who just got out of the shower says, "Well, that was my dog, but he passed." So that's
the case where the person seeing it is not grieving, so it can't have been something
that their grieving mind conjured up because that person didn't even know the dog had
died and yet they still saw the ghost. And there have been many other cases of this.
For some people like the skeptics, you need to really look at those stories. Skeptics can write
a lot of things off like, "Oh, you felt your cat jump on the bed." Well, I wasn't there. I didn't
feel it. How do I know that's true? Well, personally, I have had that experience. So,
it's kind of funny because I was compiling stories for many years and people would talk
about how they'd feel their deceased animal jump on the bed. And so, I'm compiling the stories.
But then one day, the first time it happened to me, a rat had just passed and then I felt her jump
like on the bed and go across my leg. And I actually screamed and flinched like, "Ah, what's
that?" And I had to laugh at myself because I'm like, "Okay, well, I should know what that is by
now." So I believe that for the skeptics, we need to look at them more in depth, the NDE type stories,
the third party witness stories where a third party is witnessing the spirit of an animal,
describing them in depth, and then finding out that that animal has passed. Beyond that, again,
there's going to be some people who just, even if all the evidence in the world is right in front of
them of an afterlife for animals or humans, they're going to put their blinders on because for whatever
reason, I don't know why, I really don't know why, but it's some kind of ego, particularly in the
scientific community, there's some kind of ego thing. Perhaps it's that if someone's that attached
to this world, this physical world, and their career, what they've basically created their
whole identity around as being a "scientist" and their career is in explaining everything
in this world, then anything that's outside of their realm that they can't explain, that
they can't wrap around physically, perhaps on some level is a threat to them. And so
it's easier for them to just dismiss it and dismiss those who have these experiences as
nut jobs. In some way, I feel sorry for them for that because I think that they're missing
out on a huge, richly rewarding piece in the tapestry of life. And I think they're completely
missing out on that. And it kind of hurts my heart to know that they're not having that
experience. But I also do know that those who have had these experiences, even if they're
a deeply personal experience and they don't have a third party witness, when you know,
know and you know that you know. And anyone who has had these experiences know that they're
real. You feel it, you know it, you see it, you know you're not crazy.
Another piece of advice I would like to share is not to let anyone talk you out of it. If
you have a profoundly meaningful experience of visitation, I don't care if it's from a
a departed human, a beloved animal, an angel, or whoever. Don't let someone talk you out of it.
They weren't there. Maybe on some level they're jealous or I don't know what. They have their
story. But those of us who do have these mystical experiences need to never allow others to talk us
out of them because it's a real gift. And many times when someone's grieving, these experiences
happen when we need them the most. And again, going back to what I said earlier, what kind of
a spiritual leader, teacher, counselor, or friend, or family member, whoever, what kind of a person
would kick someone when they're down and tell them what they experienced didn't happen? In my opinion,
that's not someone you want to be spending time with. Yeah. Cast you not your pearls before a
swine. I mean, you have to be careful who you say things to. Yes, it's true. It's true. And I will
say, you know, when my book first came out, I started writing it when I was very young. It's
a long time ago. There weren't mediums on TV or professional, none of this was really known back
then. And I was very sensitive, you know, and I was picked on in school and it was hard.
You weren't writing your book when you were in school, you mean picked on because you were
sensitive in general. For other things, yeah, for other things, for being skinny or pale or
whatever the thing was at the time, being smart, whatever it was that made people hate me, I don't
know. But yeah, so I was already a traumatized person and I will tell you, it was terrifying
to put this into a book and to put it out there and then to brace myself for reviews. You know,
someone will flippantly read a few chapters, see something they don't like, and then write a
scathing review. And they never think about the person who spent years of their life researching,
staying up all night at the computer, putting this thing together to try to inform and help others.
And then someone can just so flippantly find something they don't like and write it off.
And so I had to really brace myself for that. It was scary at first. At this point,
I'm kind of the point where I think life has beaten me up enough that I've had to,
the best I can for an HSP, do the best I can to create kind of a thick skin and to know that
I have my God-given purpose and if I can help one person, then all of it will have been worth it.
Or if I can help one animal, it will all have been worth it. And I'm just doing my part.
I met President Obama one time and shook his hand and I said, "We love you. Don't let the
turkeys get you down?" And he laughed and he said, "There's a lot of them out there. They
just keep on gobbling." There's a quote from Mark Twain, he said, "Don't argue with idiots.
They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."
That's funny, yeah. And I always tell the turkeys not to let the people let them down.
Right, good point. I was listening to a discussion one time between Sean Carroll,
who's a very brilliant physicist and has a nice podcast about science, and a guy named B. Alan
Wallace, who's a Buddhist teacher. And at one point, Sean Carroll said to B. Alan Wallace,
"When you die, that's it. End of story. There's nothing after that. Nothing happens." And he said
it with such adamant certainty that B. Alan Wallace could only scratch his head and say something like,
"Okay, if you say so." It's like, again, this point I made earlier, if a person is so cocksure,
if they take an opinion and make it an adamant assertion, they're not a scientist, at least
in that regard or in that instance, because science has to always be open to the possibility
that new evidence can change one's understanding.
Thank you. Thank you. It's interesting and true that you would say that because scientists,
in my experience, are often the most closed-minded among us. And like you're saying, how can
knowledge or true wisdom, how can any of that move forward if someone already has a wall up,
an area they're not even willing to go in? And it's sad. And I think perhaps that's a big part
of what has held science back is that closed-mindedness. And that's something that
really in school they should be taught open-mindedness. And I understand again,
because I am a thinker-analyzer type, personality type, so I understand that needing to see evidence
and so forth, but you have to be open to it in the first place, for sure. And then not write it off
or dismiss it when you do see a little inkling that, "Oh, boy, there's something there that I
don't believe in," and just put the blinders back on. Maybe that's easier, but it's not,
ultimately it isn't, I think. I think it's sad.
Pete: There's something in the UK called the Science and Medical Network, and a branch of
it called the Galileo Commission, and they named it that because church authorities refused to
to look through Galileo's telescope because they said Jupiter can't have moons because
for some reason that conflicted with church doctrine, don't ask me why. And so they said,
"So we're not even going to bother to look." Again, we're just kind of beating up on scientists
here, but it's not a scientific attitude to say something like that. I'm going to interview
a guy two weeks from now who's high up in that organization who is also really into the Theosophical
society and he was telling a story about how some scientist had discovered something and
it was completely in contrast to his established belief and research.
And so the person said, "Well, what are you going to do with it?"
He said, "I'm not going to do anything.
I'm going to bury it because if this got out, it would undermine my whole career."
Wow.
Yeah, you know, and I've had that kind of experience even with medical doctors with "I
can't say cure.
illegal to cure anything unless you're a medical doctor, but let's say having someone's disease
suddenly not be there anymore. I've had medical doctors say to me, "Okay, well, don't tell me
what you did, but keep doing it." Because then they'd have to be responsible for it.
I guess there's a moral dilemma in some cases, like, "Okay, well, they're not legally allowed
to tell their other patients these things. So if they don't know, then they're kind of off the hook.
If they know, then all of a sudden they're accountable.
I will say though, just to wrap up on the scientist thing and not to beat up on all of them, I
do also have some good friends who are scientists and who are also closet believers and believe
in a lot of this stuff.
In fact, I remember one of my friends, Madeline, she was an amazing woman, very scientific,
very esteemed, very brilliant.
And I gave her a copy of my book when it had come out recently.
She told me later, she said, "Well, I wasn't going to tell you this, but I came at it, you
know, because I love you, and I thought, 'Okay, I'll give this a read because I love her, but
I'm going to be able to see through all of this and find holes in the whole thing.'"
But I came through the end of that book, and by the end, I was like, "I believe!"
That meant so much to me to hear that from my most stiff, scientific friend I know.
And she came away thinking, "Okay, there's something here."
One thing about your book is that there are hundreds of stories, hundreds of examples,
and you have them all categorized.
I might read some of the categories and have you give us an example or two from each one.
That's kind of the way science works, too.
One example of something is just a fluke, it's an anomaly, but once there are dozens
and hundreds of them, then you're building a case that really is hard to dismiss.
Thank you, and that is why I did that.
That's why, I mean, the original version of my book, believe it or not, was over a thousand
pages.
Wow.
So I spent a year just editing it down to a reasonable size.
And that was my reasoning for having that many stories is exactly what you're saying.
That was my exact intention, to build a case, to show that these aren't just random one-ups.
This is a real phenomenon and these are real, real experiences that people are having.
Well, I know you have to drive to Arizona after this and you didn't get much sleep last
So I don't want to keep you too long, but if we could, I'll read you some chapter titles,
and maybe you could just give us some highlights of what that chapter is about, if you remember.
I mean, you wrote this book years ago. For instance, asking the animals, asking them what?
That's animal communicators, calling an animal communicator, someone who's gifted in telepathically
communicating and finding out what the animal has to say. And if you've never done that,
it's a really amazing experience. We have done that. I didn't just do one, I had to test them. So I'd
call like a dozen different animal communicators, not tell them that I was calling the others,
asking the same question and making sure they're all giving me the same data. And when they did,
time and time again, I'm like, okay, what are the odds that they're all making the same thing up?
Yeah, I think the first time we called an animal communicator, it might've been the first time,
we had adopted this dog. My wife worked for the local no-kill animal shelter for about eight years
doing dog adoptions and there was a dog that she particularly liked that we named Shanti.
And the first time Shanti really spent time with us was we took her on a camping trip
and we had this pop-up and there were these little metal steps to the pop-up that she had to
climb up to get into it. And then we went back home eventually and we were in a duplex that didn't have
any steps so they just walked right in the front door. But Irene was talking to this animal
communicator and perhaps she can correct me if I'm not getting the story totally right,
but Shanti conveyed through the animal communicator that she liked her little home that we had her
in where she had to go up these steps. Three steps, which is how many steps there were to
the pop-up, right? Did I get that right? She was proud of herself for going up the steps.
That's so beautiful. That's so sweet. Yeah, they're just like us. They're proud and they
want mom and dad or whoever to know they did a good thing. Okay. Obviously, there's lots of
stories in every chapter, but we're going to skip through them. So, bridging heaven and earth,
What are some aspects of that one?
>> Those are stories about professional mediums.
And I went and saw all the famous mediums in the day, and time and again, they all said
there would be at least one, if not a number of animals who would come through with messages
for their people during a group reading, for example.
Yeah, and that's across the board.
People want to know this, and people are always so moved when they get a message from a dog
or a cat or whatever kind of animal.
I will say even that I was at a Christian NDE conference, and there they said the same thing,
the number one thing people want to know is are animals in heaven, and they're like, "Yeah,
absolutely."
So that's pretty universal.
We all love our pets, regardless of what religion somebody is.
Great.
Let's see, there and back.
Those are people who've had NDEs.
People or animals?
People.
I had trouble compiling animal stories of NDEs, although in the book, too, if it ever
sees the light of day, which it eventually will. Life kind of took me in other directions for a
while. These are humans when they're on the other side who saw either their beloved pets or other
animals like farm animals or whatnot in the afterlife, in the other realm. It's all of the
compelling, really indisputable evidence that supports an NDE happening to begin with, but then
when they have their temporary encounter with the other side, they see animals there. And sometimes
this third beloved pet who died in the past, just greeting them and letting them know they're okay.
There's one animal communicator in my book, wonderful lady Sharon Callahan, and her departed
cat was there during her NDE and actually gave her information on creating flower essences
and going in a whole new career path when she returned from her NDE.
So, they're wise beings.
Rick Yeah, that's interesting.
We were talking earlier about how there's perhaps so much more to our potential than
actually gets embodied in this life, and I suppose that may be true of animals also,
there's much more wisdom to them than they can easily express through their little animal
body, you think?
>> Yes, absolutely. That's my experience for sure.
>> Yeah.
>> Yes, yes, for sure.
>> I interviewed this Swedish woman named Emily Kajdatter, and she was telling me things
about communicating with chickens and trees and all kinds of beings where they were conveying
information to her that was way beyond the scope of what you'd think a chicken could
communicate or a tree.
Yes, I've had that experience as well.
And there have been animals also on the other side who have saved people's lives, like they'll
come through with a message like, "Change your tire," you know, "Fix your tire, your
tire is bald," or whatever.
So they're actually literally looking out for us.
Interesting.
Cool.
Okay, did I do Heavenly Visitors?
No.
I'm embarrassed to say I don't remember which stories I put in that chapter.
Oh, that's okay.
Let's go on to another one.
A Touch of Heaven.
A Touch of Heaven, that's when people feel like, very common.
I've had it with people and animals touching me after they've passed.
Whether touch, if it's a person, they often touch the back of your head or you feel a hug.
If it's an animal, many times you'll feel them walk across your foot, which I have with
rats, or people will feel them jump on the bed.
And a lot of times people, you know, you're half asleep and then you wake up and you feel
your dog on your bed and you're like, "Okay, yeah, there's Fido or whoever."
Because there's always this moment, and I've had this many times when grieving, you have
this moment when you first wake up that you forget that you're grieving and you forget
that this love of your life passed, and then you have that moment where you remember, "He's
dead!
Well, then who's on my foot?"
You know?
So, yeah, there's a lot of stories like that.
It's very common.
>>Rick We had a beloved cat that died, and we both heard the cat meowing as we were kind
of drifting off to sleep.
I think in the gap, you know, between waking and sleeping, you're more receptive or more
open, and it would wake us up.
We were like, "Where?
Where is she?"
You know, but she had passed, and there were no other cats around, and we were just in a
no neighbors had cats or anything. Yeah, so real, real experience as you know.
How about music to my ears? That's hearing them. That's another like I just said.
Exactly. Yes, you had a premonition where you're going to say that one next.
That's a really common one too. I've had that experience. In fact, when I was writing the book,
I would hear other people's pets that started happening later is I would hear other people's
pets, either a certain growly noise in the right ear or a certain really distinct meow.
and then like immediately their person would call me saying their pet passed, they wanted some
comfort and I would describe what I just heard like, "Oh my god, that's how I used to make this
little snarly noise" or whatever. It's very common to hear it, a meow or a bark or whatnot, super
common. And I don't think it's just conditioning like you've heard a meow a million times and then
you're recollecting it like you might have some song running through your head that you've heard
during the day. It seems to be more substantial than that, not just some conditioned thing.
- It's really them. Yeah, yeah. I agree. And I know that one time my alarm didn't go off for
whatever reason, and I had an important something to do with the book, and I heard a dog bark in my
ears so clearly, and it woke me out of a sound sleep. Just exactly when the alarm was supposed
to go off. Like, okay, well, they're looking out for... They know I'm trying to be a voice for them
with my book, so they're looking out for me. And I do think maybe me being an intermediary
and having people's pets often meow or bark or whatever to me, right before they called me or
emailed me, was their pet's way of letting them know through a third party that this wasn't just
their imagination, they're really hearing it. Because I'm hearing it, I didn't even know the
animal. The heaven scent was smelling them, right? Yes, you got it. And that's pretty common too,
smelling their shampoo or their fur or whatever, like all of a sudden, and I've had this experience,
also angelic encounters, that usually smells like flowers. But when you have a loved one,
and I had that with my grandfather, I smelled his cologne after he passed, and there's nothing in
the house that could have accounted for that. Other people will smell like their cigar, if it's
a human. If it's an animal, many times it'll be their shampoo or whatever their fur smelled like.
Very common.
- Okay. When seeing is believing.
- That's when you actually see a ghost, so to speak, a spirit of the departed pet. It's not
scary. It's really cool. I will say those aren't as common as the other types. I do think that it's
more difficult for us in this realm. We live in a very physical and usually, unless God forbid
somebody's blind, a very visual world. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if a blind person would
be more likely to see that because they don't have these so-called blinders that we put on when we're
awake. So it's less common, but it does happen. And again, the ones that are the most compelling
for skeptics are the ones where other people see these animals and then find out they died.
Like that story you mentioned?
Yes.
Okay. Visions of the other side.
These are visions, often they're waking visions. I've had visions myself. All of a sudden it's like
you're awake, it's the middle of the day, you're not asleep, but it's almost like a dream kind of
takes over your visual field and you will see the other realm. And it's kind of hard to describe if
you haven't had it, but I've compiled stories of others who have had these visions where they will
see their cat or whatever, kind of almost going through a portal and then entering this light
realm, which is they're heading to the afterlife. So, those are relatively common as well. Waking
dreams might be another way to put it. Yeah. Sweet dreams. Speaking of dreams,
is the name of the next chapter sweet dreams? Those are getting context when you're fully
asleep. And those are common. And somehow you know, again, you know that you know, they feel
different than regular dreams. And in that chapter, I share one experience where I have a profound
contact dream from a departed animal. So profound, it wakes me up. And in that moment, I heard my
late husband making a noise. I thought maybe he was having a nightmare or something. So I woke him
up. And I said, "Are you okay? Do you have a nightmare?" He said, "No, no, Henry, he just
appeared to me it was so clear and he started describing it and it was exactly what I had
just dreamed. So the chance of that... You were both being the same thing.
They were both contacted by him at the same time or like right bam bam and there's a lot
of experiences like that. So yeah I don't want people to, maybe I'm not wording it right,
but it's important to me to let people know that not to just dismiss contacts in dreams
because they're very real and many times that's the easiest way they can contact us
because our waking blinders are all put away and we are more open and more receptive.
I love dreams dreams are the most interesting part of my day
I don't try to remember them
But ever if I wake up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom, it's like i'll find myself
Chuckling and amazed at the whole adventure i've just been having it's fascinating
Yeah, it's awesome. It's great. And there's a lot of things we do in dreams. We travel we learn
We work things out now. I do want to point this out for those who are grieving
Sometimes we work things out or we go through our our fears and our traumas and so forth in dreams
So every dream, like if we have a negative dream about a departed loved one or an animal,
that doesn't mean that it's something we need to hang our hat on.
That's our mind working through our trauma or whatnot.
But when you have one of the contact dreams where you know that you know those are real
and you know, when you have one, you know.
You can tell the difference.
Yeah, some dreams are just kind of hallucinatory and others are more like cognitions or something.
Yes.
Okay, signs and messages.
So those are various signs that a lot of people get.
You know, you hear about pennies from heaven or people seeing feathers or butterflies.
There are a lot of very common signs.
>> Suzanne Geisman, remember?
Do you ever hear her story?
>> Yes, yes.
Yeah, those are very common and very comforting for people.
>> And probably not that hard to organize from the other side, you know, just making
little things happen, making butterflies or feathers or whatever show up in improbable
ways.
>> Totally, or lights going on and off.
Those are all very common.
There's a guy named Jeffrey Mishlove who does an interview show called "New Thinking
Aloud" and he recently won a half million dollar prize for an essay on the existence
of consciousness after death, you know, a kind of continuation of consciousness or the fundamental
nature of consciousness.
And he had a whole section of that essay where there were examples of sounds of deceased
people showing up on radios or in recordings or something like that. There's another guy named
Mark Pitsdick whom I interviewed. He's working with this guy at the University of Arizona,
Tucson, to create what they call a "soul phone" where they can actually communicate.
Yes.
Have you known that guy?
I'm on his email list. Yeah, that's awesome.
It's a little primitive in terms of what you actually hear, but it's not just static.
They're picking up information that is worth investigating.
It's real and I did touch briefly on evp electronic voice phenomenon in my book
With a cat like actually the cat who warned the woman about the bald tires that was through an evp
There was an evp unbeknownst till they were playing the recording of the medium reading where the the cat is telling the woman
To change her tires so she doesn't get an accident
And then when you play it back you hear her cat meowing on the tape
There's another time when I was doing a tv interview actually for a local news station
And they they all called me excited the news, you know, the reporter and so forth afterwards. They listen to this
While we were interviewing you, you can hear the dog barking.
There's no dog anywhere, you know, there was no dog on the property in Acres and Acres.
Interesting.
Okay, how about this one, Sweet Reunions?
That is about reincarnation.
You mentioned some stories of a rat you had that you were quite sure came back to you
as another rat, and there was reasons to believe it was the same rat.
Yes, yes.
And the same soul.
Yes, the same behaviors, and there's so many stories of this.
I've had many experiences myself and then there was a woman who had this experience when she
was with a dog and all of a sudden she looked at her dog like she just knew that that was
her former dog who had passed.
She just recognized him.
I don't remember his particular quirks, but there are so many stories where that dog will
bury that bone or that toy or whatever in a very certain spot that no other dog in the
household ever does.
There is a story of a cat who used to be a dog, the dog came back as a cat and he'd hang
his head out the window and act like a dog.
Those are very heartwarming stories.
Again, that's the topic I've probably gotten the most criticism for, which is kind of funny
because all I'm saying is God loves you so much, he's sending your loved one back for
a little more time.
How's that, evil?
Well, as you were saying that, I was thinking, yeah, I bet you the critics have a field day
with this one, you know, because, you know, how could there be anything so distinctive
about a rat's behavior?
Rats are rats and you're reading a lot into it if you think this rat is the reincarnation
of some previous rat.
if you read your book, you get the impression that these animals have extremely distinctive
personalities. Absolutely. Quirks and habits and whatnot that are very convincing. Very convincing,
yeah. And again, this is all coming from myself, who's inherently a skeptic and needs to. And again,
that's again why there's so many stories. I was convincing myself just as much as the next person
in the early days of my research. And then when it started happening to me more and more, it's like,
like, "Okay, I can't dispute that."
The journey continues.
There's a quote from Werner Von Braun in the beginning of it, "Everything science has taught
me and continues to teach me strengthens my belief in the continuity of our spiritual
existence after death.
Nothing disappears without a trace."
That's probably the gist of the chapter.
You're just talking about how we carry on.
We carry on, for sure.
The hard part is letting go.
That's a chapter on grief, because I'm one of them.
reminder to all of us not to beat ourselves up. You know, I did my best with that chapter. It
took a long time to write because I know that a lot of people who read my book read it because
they've just lost someone very close to them. And it was either they bought it while they were
searching or someone gave it to them as a gift. So I really did my very best to provide as much
comfort as I can in that chapter. - Making the leap.
That's making the leap from the relevance of humans in the world in being treated with
compassion and so forth. That's making the leap to animals, that they too are sentient
beings. They're capable of being compassionate. They're deserving of compassion. They're brilliant.
They have their own little lives and their own relationships and so forth. So that's
really kind of tying it all together. I wrote this book for two reasons. I wrote it to people
who are grieving, people grieving the loss of a beloved animal, and I also wrote this
book for the animals themselves so that I could be a voice for them because they are
voiceless in our world. They don't speak our language, you know, they don't speak, not
the way we speak. Well, parakeets do or parrots.
Pete: That's true.
Angela: You know what I mean? But in general, yeah, so that chapter is just kind of tying
it all together.
Pete: Yeah. And I think your book has undoubtedly had an impact in terms of getting people to
treat animals more compassionately and regard them as more sentient than they're often thought
to be.
That was certainly my goal, and over the years I've heard from people who either they went
vegan or they started an animal rescue or whatever after reading the book, and I'm like,
"Wonderful!"
That was what I was hoping would happen, you know, because if we've been through a trauma,
and usually a loss, a loss that drives someone to read a book on what happened to their loved
one when they passed, that's a trauma.
And one of the ways we can really work through trauma, I believe, is to find a mission, a
cause.
So many of the most wonderful causes in this world were initially triggered by a trauma
that that person went through and it was in their own healing that they then found something
meaningful to put their energy into.
So if someone reads my book and comes away doing something for the animals, whatever
that is, no matter how small or big, I feel like that's something that they can do in
the honor of the loved one they've lost.
Nice.
Okay.
"Holding animals in a new light."
That is similar to the "Making the Leap."
I honestly don't remember at this point.
Yeah, what was different about it?
It's been a long time since I wrote it all.
And then after I wrote it, you know, years, and I put it in categories and so forth.
Sure.
But same thing.
Putting you through quite a test here for someone who hasn't slept much last night,
making you remember these things.
This is good for my mind.
It learns how to think on its toes even without sleep.
Yeah.
Okay, final chapter.
full circle.
>> Full circle, and that was my own experience of coming full circle and then, you know,
the chapter ends with me going through a loss in my own life, and that's how the book ends.
I won't tell you how the ending is. It kind of wraps it back around to my own personal
experience and why I wrote this in the first place.
>> Yeah. Okay, I guess we didn't get a lot of questions during the interview, but there's
There's one that came in the other day from someone named Deborah Thunderchild, and sounds
Native American maybe.
She said, "I wanted to thank you for your magnificent book.
I used to give it to all my clients after they had a beloved animal past.
I love too that you rescue animals, and especially love your description of the ratties that
you have loved.
And I loved all your stories about animals."
So just a nice little comment from her.
Thank you, and I want to thank her for doing that, for sharing the book and helping others
with it.
That really means a lot to me.
Okay, I'll let you go, but is there anything you want to say in conclusion, or any final
thoughts or anything that I haven't thought to ask you that you wanted to comment on?
Not that I can think of on the top of my head.
I appreciate you, this is very thorough, and I appreciate how much you covered.
And yeah, I will just say that, you know, anything I share that might have seemed like
you mentioned a skeptic might think, "Oh, I don't know."
you know, read the book, because, and if you can't afford the book, find it in a library or something,
because I do think it's helpful for everyone to know. I think it's very comforting,
and hopefully my goal is to awaken some compassion in those who have that part of themselves shut off
right now. And I would say, and you have said during this interview, that there's nothing wrong
with being skeptical. Just don't dig your heels in too hard. Be open, doubt all you like, but also
keep an open mind to at least look at evidence if it presents itself and, you know, don't just kind
of slam the door and refuse to look at it.
Well said, and I agree, and that's true. I've always called myself an open-minded skeptic.
And I will say that there were some stories that people submitted to my book that I did turn down
because I did feel that those were perhaps a stretch of wishful thinking. So, I didn't just
include everything, and, you know, I was gentle about it, of course, but we have to maintain that
that healthy skepticism. Otherwise, my research would lose credibility and I wouldn't be able
to continue to grow and learn more and hopefully refine my approach and my beliefs over time.
It would evolve like we're all doing or trying to do or hopefully doing.
One way I put it is, "I gave everything the benefit of the doubt, but I take everything
with a grain of salt and proportions vary."
I love it. That's awesome. Great recipe.
All right. Well, thanks so much, Kim. I really enjoyed talking to you.
Likewise.
you for all the hoops you had to jump through to get this done. It was all worth it. Thank you for
your patience with me in jumping through all these hoops. I really appreciate it. And also,
I want to acknowledge those who tried to do the live stream the first time and my tech,
my computer and everything else was not cooperating. And I apologize for anyone who sat
waiting and wondering why I didn't show up that day. So here we are. I put a little message on
there explaining what happened. Hopefully they came back today. Otherwise they can see the
permanent version when we put it up. Wonderful. Yeah. Thanks for what you do. I appreciate it.
Oh, thank you. And have a safe trip to Arizona. Be careful if you get sleepy, pull over and take
a nap or have a coffee or something. I've got some organic cacao all lined up, so I'll be good.
Thank you. Yeah. I mean, we've had drives that, you know, I was like starting to nod off and I'm
pinching my leg and trying to keep myself awake. And next thing I know, I'm hitting the rumble bars
at the side of the road, say, "Boy, you just have to be careful."
Kim: Yeah, I learned the hard way on that one. I had a relationship with a fire hydrant once,
but I don't recommend, so yeah, I will not take any chances.
Dr. Jim Martin: Good. All right, so thanks so much, Kim.
Kim: Thank you so much.
Dr. Jim Martin: And thanks to those who've been watching or listening,
and we'll see you for the next one.
Awesome. Take care. Bye-bye.
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Thank you.