[Music]
Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer. Buddha at the Gas Pump is an ongoing series of conversations with spiritually awakening people.
All those words in the previous sentence were chosen carefully. I've done over 700 of these now.
If this is new to you and you would like to check out previous ones, go to batgap.com, B-A-T-G-A-P, and look under the past interviews menu.
you. This program is made possible through the support of appreciative listeners
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sight, but there's still quite a few to do, so if you would like to help proofread
some transcripts, get in touch. And we also have, well, I'm not sure if this is relevant,
we have a thing called the BatGap Bot, which is an AI chat bot to which I've uploaded tens
of thousands of relevant documents, and it's getting more and more popular. So if you'd like
to check that out, go to BatGap, and you'll see a menu item for that. Okay, my guest today is
Constance Casey, MDIV. I'll tell you in a minute what that is. Constance is an author and teacher
providing spiritual guidance for those interested in living a gentle and peaceful life.
That sounds nice.
Constance offers guidance for those entering deeper practice into the nature of reality
and adjusting to a shift in consciousness.
Her awakening occurred in 2008.
She has been practicing in the contemplative arts for over 40 years,
first through her years in recovery, and then as she deepened in Buddhist practice in 2007,
which she shares in her memoir.
This is her memoir. It's called "A Time for Awakening" and I read it in the previous week or so.
She's a graduate of the Spirit Rock Dharma Leader Program. Some of her teachers include Trudy Goodman
and Jack Kornfield. Constance obtained a Master's of Divinity focusing on religious studies and went
on to do hospital chaplaincy work. As an interfaith hospital chaplain, she offered compassionate care
for patients and families while embracing the spectrum of human experiences. Although she tells
me that work is tapered off because they weren't too crazy about Buddhist chaplains, but anyway,
we'll talk about that too. She's also authorized by Naropa University to teach meditation. Constance's
practice is primarily informed by the suttas in Theravada Buddhism, where she has developed her
own online classes, the most recent one called "Clearing Skies, Dispelling the Clouds that Hinder
Us," and she leads support groups for dedicated meditation practitioners. Through her experience,
she respects and values your unique spiritual practice and journey while supporting you to
find balance and significance in the face of adversity. Constance will encourage you to
attune toward being more mindful and aware for release and serenity. Her first book,
which I just held up, called Time for Awakening, a memoir, shares her story of awakening and deeper
meditation practice and is what brings her to our meeting today. And so welcome Constance.
Thank you. Thank you, Rick.
The main thing that hit me about your book, the main impression I was left with,
was the ardency and intensity of your spiritual search. There are a lot of spiritual teachers
and also various scriptures such as Patanjali's Yoga Sutras which correlate the termination or
the intensity of the seeker with the speed and fullness with which realization is attained.
Patanjali actually breaks it down in terms of like lukewarm and medium and vehemently intense,
and he says those are the ones that get it the fastest. The impressive thing is that, you know,
you had this really burning desire and you put it into practice with hours and hours and hours
of meditation, many of which were not all that comfortable, and in the meanwhile,
you're renovating a house, building websites, raising kids, dealing with all the vicissitudes
of life and you managed to balance that because you know a lot of people you tell them about
this kind of thing and they'll say well I'm just too busy I couldn't possibly spend 20
minutes meditating I don't have time I will say to them well then time has you so anyway
congratulations it was inspiring to read your story well thank you Rick I'm really glad
to hear that I've heard a lot of different things about the book and everyone has a different
reaction. And I'm really glad that you brought that up about the ardency and the different
ways of tuning in, like our different levels of ardency. The Buddha also had described
four different levels of people who are open to receiving the Dharma. And he said that
there were those who had a lot of dust in their eyes. In fact, he was so concerned on
the night of his awakening that he didn't think he would want to teach because he thought
This is very subtle.
This is very difficult.
And there's maybe too many with dust in their eyes.
And then he was visited and told, "No, there are some.
There are some."
And he assessed that there were like four different levels.
Those with too much dust that maybe many, many lifetimes they need to really work with getting
grounded in kindness and gentleness and honesty in their lives and connection.
And those people are learning a lot.
And then there's another level of people who are learning through mistakes, lots of mistakes
and falling back and getting back up and falling back, getting back up.
And then there are those that are really listening and kind of getting it, kind of clicking.
Then there are those that like really get it.
They just need a little bit of instruction and they get it.
And I feel like in this lifetime, I was like the third, I was falling down.
In my book, it may seem like it happened in just one year, but no, it was a long practice.
Yeah, I am inclined to believe in reincarnation.
And when I meet somebody like you, and I've met many people about whom I could say this,
I figure, well, you've been at this for quite a while, and you're just picking up where
you left off.
Right, exactly.
Exactly.
And I just really want to impress upon your listeners and anyone out there who's listening
right now.
importance of this precious human life. How beautiful and important this life is.
The life that you have right here on this earth is a divine expression and
that if we can just tune in to just pause right now like wherever you are if
you are washing your dishes right now or you're out in the yard raking and
listening to this on a podcast can you just take a pause because really it's
about being here right now. Can you just tune in even if you're washing the
dishes right now? Can you feel the temperature as you're washing the
dishes? Can you just really tune in and be more present in your life? For me, right
now I'm sitting here and I'm thinking this conversation is the most important
thing because it's right now, happening right now. And so even as I pick up my
tea, you know I enjoy my tea, it's right here I can hold it in my hand and I can
feel that and I can see you. What are you having? Do you have coffee or tea?
David Not the moment, but I'll survive. My former
teacher's teacher had this quote where he said, "There are so many lives one can live
before getting a chance to be human." He said, "Once you have achieved a human life, make
good use of the time. It's a precious opportunity. If you fail to reach God in this life, then
you have sold a diamond for the price of spinach." Which is not to make people feel bad, because
I've said things like this when I was teaching and there were some older people or people
with a disease that might kill them, you know, and they began to literally cry because they
felt, "Oh my God, I've blown it.
I won't make it."
That kind of thing.
But I think you probably would agree, see this life as one rather brief chapter in a
very long book.
And wherever you are, and anybody listening to this probably doesn't have much dust in
their eyes, so they wouldn't be listening to it.
You know, make hay while the sun shines.
Do what you can.
That's right. I agree. One of my earliest memories is I remember being a little girl. I was like
four or five years old and I was out in the backyard playing with my brother and neighborhood
kids. We just wore our underwear and we would play in the sprinkler and the hose and we
had little pool that the sides folded down but you could fill it up and then it would
stay up. And my mom even brought out a stepstool so that we could jump off the stepstool into
the pool. And we were just little kids, you know, running around, running around in the
yard and I just loved being outside and I was just like playing in the sprinkler and just
all day we would just play outside.
And of course, at a certain point, my mom comes out and she's got curlers in her hair and she's
like, "This is it, you gotta come in."
And I was like, "Nuh-uh, I don't wanna come in."
And my brother went scampering in right away and she comes running after me and she circles
me and circles me in the yard and the yard is so muddy.
Oh by then it was just all mud and your mother slipped
She slipped and she got up and she was mad and she came
Beelined across from me and she grabbed me really hard by the arm
And she held me really tight and she said in a really intense voice
Just who do you think you are?
And I stopped completely and looked at her and went that's a really good question
That's great. And I fainted wow
Yeah, I fainted. The question just overwhelmed my child mind.
Like I knew that question.
And I just fainted. And she scooped me up and she was so mad at me.
Because all the mud.
The next thing I knew I woke up in the tub and was getting washed up.
And I was just like walking around and going, "What does that mean?
What does that mean? Who am I?"
Wow, that's so interesting.
And I did have some memories as a little girl of previous life.
And I did say to my mother a few times, "I don't think you're my real mom."
And she did not like that at all.
Pete: She didn't understand what you were saying, right?
Kirsten: She did not understand.
She did not like that.
So, that question is a question for each of us to ask.
What is this life about?
It's a good curiosity.
It's a wonderful curiosity.
And just relaxing and opening up to the whole event of the moment can allow in so much knowing,
much presence. It's really rich, these energies that are moving through us.
Pete Yeah. You told another story where you and
your brother were digging tunnels in the snow and you were burrowing under and sliding down
and this and that, and then the snow collapsed and buried your brother and he could have easily
have died. And you were like digging frantically and you're freezing cold, you had your gloves
off because you could dig better and you finally got him out and he ran home. But then you stayed
until late at night, sledding and looking at the stars and this and that, and then eventually
lying on the sidewalk in front of your house.
And I got the feeling that in all of that, you were having some kind of mystical experience.
Yeah, I basically spent the whole day practicing in a natural way, just really feeling the
snow, the crunch, listening to the sound of the snow as I walked on it with the crunch,
seeing even the difference in temperature throughout the day and the sound would change on the
snow with my footfall.
And so my attention was really present, really tuned in all day long.
And when I just flipped over and lied back on my sled later and the snow started falling
on my face, it was like the whole universe opened.
And I just was like every snowflake was like also a falling star.
whole universe wasn't separate from me and everything that happened, like a slush from
the street landing near me as a car went by, was also a passing galaxy.
It was like beyond time and space and just really amazing.
And I just kept sliding my way home and going, "Whoa!"
(Laughter)
Pete: How old were you then?
at that point about nine.
Randy: Nine.
I've interviewed quite a few people who had some pretty amazing experiences when they were
young like that.
And then, you know, when they got into their teenage years, they eventually kind of shut
down.
But I think it's probably symptomatic of ripeness for spiritual awakening later on.
I think a lot of kids are pretty open, but it's not like we're tabula rasas when we're
born and we're just perfectly enlightened and, you know, then we get screwed up by the world.
We come in at different levels and some people come in at a fairly high level and are open
to having such experiences when they're young.
Kim: Yeah, it's too bad that a lot of children who are very sensitive are sort of judged and
shunned and pushed aside.
It's difficult because I was really sensitive and pretty quiet as a kid.
Ricky: You said something in your notes about how this book came about, Time for Awakening.
It's incredible to you.
How is it incredible?
Well, I wrote the book in 2009, 2010.
Right when I was starting BATGAP.
Yeah, of course, we are always struggling to get by.
I think a lot of the books you see in bookstores are written by people who have a lot more resources.
So that's something to consider.
I looked for help and support with it a little bit on and off over the years, but didn't
have enough support for it.
I had shown it to my teachers, Jack and Trudy, in 2010, and they said, "Yes!
Keep going!
Work on it!
This is nice!
I think people will benefit."
But I just couldn't bring it forward until something happened in December 2022.
I got COVID and I got really ill with it.
I particularly was affected with my heart and I needed to go to the ER.
The doctors were very concerned about me and they had plugged me into all this stuff to
check on my heart.
And one of my sons, Forrest, was with me.
And the doctor came in and he said, "We're really concerned."
I told Forrest, I said, "Well, if I die, there's this manuscript up in the attic, in the corner,
on this dusty little corner shelf, and I would really like you to get it out and read it.
I'm leaving that for you. And I really wrote it for my sons because it's so important to
me as a mother to be a mother and to leave something behind like breadcrumbs for my sons.
And so that was really, really important. And he said, Okay. So then I got better. I
got better really quickly. It was just a minor problem that was resolved really quickly.
Both of my sons read it, they looked at it and read it. And they brought it to me and
And they said, "If this is your dying wish, this is good, and we're going to help you
with this now."
So I was like, "Wow, really?"
And as it turned out, one of my sons is really talented with commas and grammar and all kinds
of editing.
And I had each one of them sitting next to me, one on one side, one on the other, and
we spent months and months looking at it and discussing it.
And actually, this was more important to me than the book.
Oh, yeah.
That's nice that you had that time with them, especially since you kind of wrote it for them,
you know?
Yes.
And it was really healing because they were able to talk about things that I've shared
in the book because it is a memoir.
And they were able to really look back at things that were happening at that time.
And then we would stop sometimes for a week and really discuss, you know, those memories
and the things that they were going through in high school and the struggles that they
were having.
And then we were able to really apply some wisdom to looking at healing what they need
to heal now.
It was so wonderful.
There's a story in the book where you're in some restaurant and there are a bunch of gay
guys at the next table.
And you say, "Hey, are you guys gay?"
And they say, "Yeah!"
And you say, "I think maybe one of my sons is gay."
And you end up sitting down with them and they're kind of like you become their mom
or something and they're hugging you and all that stuff.
I don't know why that just came to mind just now, but it's like, I just, from talking to
you now and having read the book, I just think, wow, I wish all mothers could be like this.
Even though you're running off to retreats and things like that, which you needed to
do for your spiritual pursuits, your love and open-mindedness and everything for your
sons is really beautiful.
Thank you.
Being a parent is something that I took upon myself as a really sacred responsibility.
And it is.
It is.
very heavy karma and we need to pay close attention to it. I think that's also a result of my
own childhood though too.
But I mean, the whole humanity could be turned around in one generation if all parents were
enlightened, but of course that's a very improbable hypothesis. It doesn't work that way. But
here's the flip side to that. I've known people who were ardent meditators and spiritual seekers
who neglected their children because they were so absorbed in their practice. They would
leave their kids alone for hours and the kids would get into all kinds of mischief and stuff.
So, you kind of have to juggle things more artfully than that and integrate spiritual
practice into your circumstances without neglecting either.
Kindra Right. And that's why I really shared in my
book about how parenting was a part of my life, you know, it was everything. My practice
was more intense, of course, on the cushion. When you're sitting, you can be really still
and totally inward focus.
But when I was with them, I was with them.
That's it.
I was with them.
And I was really listening and really paying close attention.
And what is it that we need to talk about?
What is it that we can do?
How are you really experiencing life?
This was really important.
Being sons, also, they would come home from school when they were kids and they would
be told things like, "Boys, don't cry."
butts kicked on the playground or shoved and all kinds of violence happening. And I would
just say that's ridiculous. This is not about you being a boy or a girl. This is about you
being a human and having a heart. And it's okay to have these feelings. These feelings
are really important.
What do you feel about parenting as a spiritual practice? Because I know that some people,
I don't know about parents, but I know of some guys who decide to become monks who think,
"Oh, that would be just the worst thing I could do for my spiritual development."
And I was actually living an intentionally monastic life for about 15 years, although
it was a very active monastic life, of course, I was traveling around doing projects.
But the attitude was, "Yeah, that's kind of a lesser dharma.
If you do that, you're really selling out."
And it took me a while to adjust to the idea that it wasn't.
And even though we never had children, on the other hand, I feel like the challenges of
married life, and I'm sure this is true of having children as well, were very evolutionary,
not some kind of trap or distraction from the spiritual path.
But I think I'm in much better shape now than I would have been had I been up in the
Himalayas with my old buddies now.
Kindra Right.
Spiritual practice is whatever is here.
Pete Yeah.
Kindra Oh, it's whatever it's here.
And the Buddha, you know, he went back to his son, and his son came into his community,
And there's the stories about him and Rahula, his son.
And he was a dad in the whole community with Rahula as he was teaching.
And it's important, whatever we have, whatever we have to deal with, we need to deal with
it.
And that's the way I live.
I had a house that was a mess.
Okay, I need to fix it.
I need to work on it.
I have children that I love dearly.
Well, then let's find ways to be healthy and supportive and functional.
I like to put the fun in functional.
Yeah, that's good.
That's a lot of what I like to do.
So you mentioned that you were an invisible child and homeless, but yet a little while
ago you were talking about your mother and running around the swimming pool.
In what respect were you invisible or homeless?
Well, with my mother, she had some mental illness and she was really not balanced at all and
wasn't able to really raise us as children. And my father divorced her when I was eight.
And he really tried to seek custody to protect us from her violence and emotional abuse. But
he wasn't able to get custody. And then he died when I was 12. And for most of my life,
my mother would often remind me that I was unwanted.
She hadn't intended to get pregnant in that sense?
Right.
And that she did not want me, that she had no interest in taking care of me.
And she did neglect me severely.
So there was a lot of invisibility, but also just in the family system of being so dysfunctional,
I sort of became the fly on the wall.
I just would sort of retreat.
And my main focus was, "Let's just stay out of trouble.
I don't want to get in trouble.
I don't want to be part of this trouble, and I don't want to participate in it.
One of my family members said to me recently, "Remember such and such and such and such happening?"
And I said, "Yes."
And he said, "Well, where were you?"
And I was right there.
So they didn't even notice you?
They didn't notice me.
So anyway, when my father died, there wasn't anyone to take care of me.
So I became a ward, and I was homeless.
I went out and I found support.
There was a group of hippies that were living on the West Bank in Minneapolis, and it was
the first year that they had started a home for kids who had basically been tossed out
and didn't have any support.
How old were you then?
I was 12.
Wow!
That's young.
I mean, that's illegal.
You don't toss out a 12-year-old.
A lot of kids are.
In fact, those gay men that I spoke with in the restaurant, they said that they were mostly
tossed out.
They were tossed out of their homes.
Probably by some very religious parents who are blind to the hypocrisy of what they were
doing.
I was out of the home a lot starting from about the age of 14 because of my father's
alcoholism and my mother's hospitalization for mental illness and stuff like that, but
12 is really young.
How did you get along?
What happened?
Well, eventually they found a foster home, but sometimes I was homeless.
I was out on the street and finding places to stay with other homeless people.
And then when a home was found, I went into foster care.
And I was in a series of foster homes.
And then I was emancipated by the court when I was 17.
Meaning you could just be on your own, didn't have to be anybody's ward anymore.
Right.
The judge just said that if you get picked up, they will bring you downtown because you're
under age of 18.
So just stay out of trouble.
And I was like, "Okay."
So I actually started college when I was 17, through the help of a man who was at the high
school, alternative high school that I went to.
Well, it's good that you came through that relatively unscathed.
I mean, these days, kids end up in sex trafficking situations and things like that, and all kinds
of horrible things.
That's true.
Even more so in other countries, sometimes, like India.
In fact, people sell their children in India sometimes for that purpose.
That's right. I have a good friend named Robin who's been on BatGap. Robin Charasia who has a
whole organization that takes care of girls who were born in the red light district of Mumbai
and she deals with so many difficult situations. It's amazing. She happens to be in the U.S. right
now actually fundraising. What really helped me was I worked. I always worked like three jobs.
Kept you busy? It kept me really busy and out of trouble but I did get into recovery. You weren't
drinking or anything. It was recovery for people who've had a rough life kind of a program.
Yeah, I never really was attracted to drinking that much.
But you mentioned you were at Al-Anon or something, right?
Yes, right. And I got into using the tools of recovery, which I talk about in my book.
And the tools is what really helped me. I started to, every Friday night, light a candle and just
sit down with my feelings. And I looked at the tools and the tools that I outlined in my book
are really simple seven tools. Attend meetings, work the steps, connect with others, use the phone list,
engage in meditation or prayer, read informative and wise literature, write or journal about your
questions or concerns, get a sponsor and meet with that person, be generous and provide support to
the whole group. And I just took up these tools like they were like, wow, okay, I love it. I was
I was like, okay, these are the tools, I'm gonna use them.
Let's do it.
And I immediately asked for a sponsor.
And my first sponsor mostly just said things like, why not?
'Cause I just had so much oppression,
internalized oppression against myself.
And I had so much internalized shame
and I didn't know how to really let myself be free again
after all of those years of homelessness.
And I kind of consider the shame and stuff like this
sort of like, see this string, it sort of squeezes you down, and it prevents you from opening
up and learning.
And so I was kind of squeezed down and my sponsor could see that.
And so I would ask her things like thinking about taking the day off work and just going
for a bike ride.
And she'd go, "Why not?"
I didn't know, go for it.
And when I was going out on dates, I mean, she was just like, "Take a quarter and a $20
bill, stick it in your bra, and if you have any problem, you can call me with that quarter.
And then you have the $20 bill for a cab if you need it.
And I just had this support.
It was just available and I would just go to meetings and feel this love.
And it's here.
It's like a revolution.
It's an underground revolution throughout the world.
In church basements, in places you wouldn't know.
It's just amazing.
I was just like, "This is amazing."
I discovered something so awesome, and I just dug into it, and it really changed my whole
life.
It changed my whole life.
Even when I met my husband, I'd say, "Can you pick me up on Wednesday at this corner?"
And he'd say, "Why on that corner?"
And I'd say, "Well, it's right after a meeting."
And then he started coming into the meetings too.
I had this foundation for raising my children.
Yeah.
And I had these principles that were just like coming alive in me.
This wisdom is part of these principles and it just came alive in me.
Are those kinds of tools the same in AA as they are in Al-Anon?
I think those tools can be used even in any religion.
Right, but I mean formally in AA, they're pretty much the same thing?
Pretty much the same thing.
I'm not a spokesperson for the program.
I'm just sharing my experience.
Yeah, of course.
Yeah.
And I've heard wonderful things about it.
I have a really good friend who might be listening to this now who had problems with drugs and
stuff and was in one of these programs and benefited tremendously. I wish my father had
gotten into one of those things. It is a very spiritual program from what I understand,
and I think that many of the problems in contemporary spirituality with ethics and people being
treated respectfully and kindly and responsibly and all that kind of stuff would be addressed
by an ethical structure like the tools you just described. So, I think in some spiritual
circles, that sort of thing is sorely lacking.
Patti: I suppose it is.
Pete: I mean, think of some of the scandals in Buddhist circles, for instance, you know,
which you're probably more familiar with than you might be in other circumstances, but if
those spiritual teachers had been trying to abide by codes such as you just described,
perhaps they wouldn't have behaved that way.
Patti: That's right. That's right. And perhaps if there were some old timers around to watch
them and go watch it.
Yeah, if they had a sponsor or some feedback mechanism, I see you slipping here. Yeah, let's check in
Yeah, that's one of the problems a lot of times spiritual teachers don't have a peer who can be a feedback mechanism
And can call them on their stuff. So they just kind of go off the rails
more and more
Well, there's an old saying in the program that we're at different places on the path, but we're the same distance from the ditch
Interesting. That's a good one. You probably heard of Pabba Sambhava because he was a Buddhist sage of some sort so that there's something
He said once he said although my awareness is as vast as the sky
My attention to karma is as fine as a grain of barley flour
Yeah, in other words he's saying you can be pretty cosmic but you can still screw up if you're not careful that's right
I think about that every time I stand at my table saw
Yeah, right
>> Right, be very careful.
>> Good point.
You know, some of the more time-honored traditions like Buddhism and certain aspects of Hinduism
have had plenty of time to incorporate this kind of stuff.
They're big on kindness, you have the whole Sharon Salzberg meditation kind of emphasis,
whereas some of the more contemporary spiritual circles and Neo-Advaita and so on, they don't
paying attention to this and if it's brought up, they might even dismiss it as Maya or
as superfluous. It's just like a compromise with illusion if you're even taking this stuff
seriously.
Well, my training and my background in Buddhism is that the Buddha taught that there is self
and not self, and that we need to be skillful in whatever realization that we've had. We
also need to be skillful. We have this human form, and we need to be moral in our conduct.
to be cleared. So, that's been my training. So, I've just really stayed with that because I feel
really comfortable with that. And it's given me a lot of freedom and liberation and happiness and
I can go to sleep at night and feel really good. Pete That's a good point. Ultimately,
one is one's own barometer. If there's sensitivity, you should feel it if you're out of Dharma, you
know, there should be some kind of discomfort as a consequence. And I think often that people manage
just stuff that to repress it and thereby become less sensitive. And that can be a vicious
circle where you become less and less and less sensitive. Humanity has done horrific
things and you have to be quite blind to your own, to yourself in order to engage in such
experiences.
Right. Well, I was really fortunate to have an amazing teacher early on in my 20s, Ann
Wilson-Shafe.
Oh, yeah. Talk about her.
didn't consider herself even in a hierarchical way.
She was really honest about her process and what was going on with her.
And she really admitted so much, and that really was a role model for me, to be honest
about what is really going on, to be sensitive.
That honesty is what we really need over and over again, to keep coming back into the moment
and feeling into those moments of fear, those moments of tension, and what is really true.
I practiced with this one way in which she defined addiction for quite a while.
And for many years, like 24 years, I practiced in this way where I created an acronym for
her definition, one of her primary definitions of addiction, which was what I call DIED.
The first D was denial.
So I was continually checking throughout the day
as I was parenting, working on the house, doing my work.
Is there anything I'm in denial about?
Do I need to eat?
Do I need to drink a water?
Do I need to stop?
Do I need to reprioritize?
What is the most important thing right now?
Is there anything I'm in denial about?
Is there anything I don't want that I'm pushing away?
That's denial.
Is there anything I'm wanting that I just can't get?
it's not going to happen. That's denial. So I was really practicing with denial over and
over again. And then the next thing I looked into, which is connected to denial is the
illusion of control. Was I not aware of all the many streams that are coming together at
any point in time because it's huge? What can I do? And what can I not do? And that was
part of the recovery program with the serenity prayer.
Yeah, that famous quote.
Yes, it's trying to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.
So this is the prayer of working with the illusion of control and really working with
anything unskillful.
And I had to stop often, pause, feel.
This was a practice.
And then for me, I also really looked at external referencing, which is the E, because the way
The way I came in, the way I'm wired up,
is that I often care about everybody else.
What's going on with everybody else?
And I have to be aware that I'm old, I'm tipped over,
I leaned in too much on everybody else
and I have to come back.
What is going on here?
And find that balance between me and the kids,
me and the house, me and my work,
and what is going on, and find out why have I tipped over.
So external referencing,
worrying about what other people think,
spending more effort on the perceptions of others is also external referencing, and not
just being at home in my own skin.
And then the next one was dualistic thinking.
Dualistic thinking is common, we think, in either/or, black and white thinking.
It's just got to be this way or this way or your way or my way.
Instead of really looking in the situation and feeling into the whole event of the moment
and seeing a variety of options and a variety of ways of seeing it, and even a way of seeing
it from other people's perspective as well as mine, and what would be the best, what
would be the best outcome for both of us.
And I might have to give something up, and they might have to give something up, and we
can come to some negotiated solution.
You should run for Congress.
Oh boy, that'd be hard.
But this is what I practiced with for 24 years.
And so this was the groundwork for what happened in 2007.
after 24 years of practicing with DIED, I started really looking at my practice and at all of
my practice in the recovery and going, "There's something that's like right here."
What do you mean by that?
You're pushing your hand up to your nose for the audio listeners here.
There's something right here.
There's something right here and it's so close, but it feels separate.
There was still this illusion of separation, this feeling of separation.
And I kept having these mystical experiences because part of my recovery program was that
I would leave for times and I would go and sit in hermitages and I would practice contemplative
prayer and I would again have these huge openings and these big mystical experiences and I would
cycle through that and then come back home and go like, "Now what?
This is not satisfying.
It's over.
It's just another experience.
That's not it."
I didn't even know I was a seeker.
I just felt like something isn't right.
Well, when you had these mystical experiences, did you put them in a spiritual context?
When you say you don't know you were a seeker, but did you interpret them in terms of having
spiritual significance?
Yeah, it was almost like when I was a kid on the sled out in the snow, like, wow, very
present with it.
A lot of energy flying in and through the body and appreciating it, but then it would just
- Yeah.
- It was gone, and I knew it was gone,
and I needed to get back to work.
I needed to get back to the business of living
and let it go, and just move on
with what's the next thing to do.
Now I have to do the dishes.
This is just the dishes now.
But I knew that there was something
that was calling me further, further.
And then I had these experiences,
like I sat for an LSAT,
and I'd sit in the room and be completely quiet,
and I would just be like, I love this silence.
I love the silence of this room.
And I'd hear this sound coming through and this voice would go, "This isn't it."
And I was like, "What does that mean?
I don't know, but this isn't it."
And so I kept getting this pull to go further, further.
What is it?
Well, then what is it?
What is it?
And that's why I started the book in 2007 when I just went, "I need to check into a
meditation center and I need to look around further for support because I just need to
broaden my horizons. And that's when eventually that led to my meeting Adya, Adya Shantay,
and talking with him. And I just really needed to know like straight, is there something
that is further here? And what I heard him say in so many words was, yes, yes, there's
something here. And I said to him, I said, "Well, one of the phrases that kept coming
to me in this process was 'half measures avail us nothing.'"
What's that again?
Half measures avail us nothing.
Avail us nothing, yes.
And that's a statement from the big book. And I read that over and over and over again,
half measures avail us nothing. And so I realized I needed to do this full-on, that I couldn't
do it halfway. And I told Adi, I'm willing, I'm really, really willing. I'm willing to
go to any lengths. And he said, Well, then you can't be stopped. Right? I realized that
I was ready. I was ready to go further, much further. But you still managed to balance
your family responsibilities and stuff. It's not like you just said, Bye, kids, maybe I'll
see you in 20 years. No, no, it was just, again, a matter of really learning and having
day at a time for years and years and years.
One day at a time, what's right here?
What are the priorities?
What do I need to discern today?
How are you?
How is your health?
What kind of food do we need in the house?
The things do we need to do?
Pete: Yeah.
See, I think this is a really good example for people because some people might feel
frustrated that they have to work in a job or deal with this or that responsibility and,
you know, I just want to be in a cave on a mountain top, whatever, they just want to devote
themselves to spirituality.
Kim: Well, you can simplify.
Pete: You can, yes.
Kim: A lot of people's lives are pretty chaotic and they can simplify.
Pete: Right.
Kim: Like, I remember ending a lot of magazine subscriptions and I remember not going to
some of my external volunteer activities as much and cutting back on many different things
and really just like going, okay, every activity needs to be in devotion of this.
Pete: Yeah.
even if it's folding the laundry, even if it's nailing boards together, every activity needs
to be a devotion. So, I could simplify things more and more so that I would have these periods
where I could do focus sitting meditation morning, afternoon, and evening. But there
were things that had to go in my life that had to become more simplified.
Pete Sure. And you know, I think in our modern society,
there are a lot of people, perhaps a majority, who are unaware that the deepest, most genuine,
abiding fulfillment is to be found within. And so, therefore, they're seeking it externally
and quite desperately. Around Christmas time every year, they always have on the news,
these mob scenes in the malls, you know, where people are battling each other over the latest
gadget and breaking the doors down and stampeding and doing all this crazy stuff. And you just think,
"Wow, these people are just desperate for something that is not going to make them happy."
But it's still a big phenomenon in our society, something our society needs to evolve out
of I'd say, given the state of the world and the environment and the economy and all
that stuff.
Yeah, that's true.
Yeah, there's a lot of benefit in just taking time with your family, just really getting
to know them, sitting down, just keeping it really simple.
Yeah, I listen to your book while walking in the woods about two hours every morning, which is what I do
But I want to ask you about that you talk about being here now
Focusing on what you're doing and so on and so forth
Do you consider it to be in a violation of that to be?
Listening to a podcast or something while you're walking in the woods like i'm dividing my mind
Or would you do a thing like that or would you either just listen to the podcast or walk in the woods?
Well notice how that's kind of dualistic and that there's actually many different levels of attention
There's different levels of attention when I'm driving a car.
I don't want the same level of attention that I'm giving when I'm meditating deeply and as
focused sit as when I'm driving a car.
Very true, you'd crash it.
Right.
So there's different levels of attention.
And so the chosen level of attention was to walk in the woods and listen to the podcast.
My wish is that it's pleasant, but that even if it's unpleasant, you're paying attention
to that.
Well, that's a good answer.
Actually I heard from somebody I've interviewed, I think it was Rick Hansen, who's a neuroscientist,
that they found through studies that it's really good for your brain to be doing something
intellectually stimulating while getting aerobic exercise as you get older especially.
Maybe it's because it brings more blood flow to the brain or something, I don't know.
We all have different brains and we all have different ways of being and one of the things
for me was I'm also really very visual.
It's actually taken me quite a while to become more verbal and more articulate about talking
about this and writing the book did help me with that.
But for instance, after I was at Adia's retreat, I drew a picture and I just didn't even know
how to talk about what had happened.
I'd had this huge opening and drew this picture of all this energy just like coming out of
me and I just didn't even know how to say anything about this to anybody because it just was
huge. It was a really big opening because I was practicing really intensively at that
retreat. It wasn't necessarily attributed to Adiya, it was attributed to the level of
devotion and practice that I was giving moment by moment at the retreat. And so when we do
the practice, there are a lot of openings and some people may not have words for it,
may not have really an intellectual understanding of it. It could be very overwhelming. Here's
another picture from a retreat.
Lightning coming out of dark clouds.
Right. And it was a really difficult state. I was just like beads of sweat pouring down
and I was just staying with it and just really breathing through this really intense feeling.
So I didn't know how to even put this into words when I was on retreat and going on to
these some of these retreats, I would show the picture to a teacher and they go, "Well,
you're supposed to describe your experience."
I didn't know what to say.
There was so much happening.
Sometimes I think a picture is like a thousand words.
Sure, especially if you're a visual person.
I mean, yeah, that's your medium.
One thing I was impressed with whenever I hear stories like this, I'm grateful that that
wasn't the nature of my path, is that how you could sit there and experience a lot of physical
pain trying to sit still for hours on end and just soldier on.
The way I was taught, we're supposed to be comfortable, first of all, because if you're
in a lot of pain, it distracts you from what you're doing there.
And actually, I heard a story, I think it was from Jeff Carrera, whom I interviewed.
He used to be with Andrew Cohen, and they would do these long, long things where they'd be
meditating from four in the morning till ten at night with very few breaks and stuff and
you know they'd be slapping each other to try to stay awake. I actually heard a story of someone
getting a stroke because they had cut off the circulation in their legs so badly. In fact,
you told the story of a lady breaking her ankle because her foot went to sleep.
She tore a tendon.
Tore a tendon. And so I just kind of like, it's one thing to be gung-ho on the spiritual path,
it's another thing to actually damage the vehicle because you push it too hard.
Right, and I did actually do that. I had a ganglion cyst on my wrist
I'm holding a mudra and too tight of a mudra. This is a mudra
Yeah, right and the circulation coming down my arm got stuck in my wrist from the way I was leaning
And I had to have that removed so I felt like that was a casualty of really learning
That I needed to be more flexible and find my own rhythm and pay attention more
to my own rhythm
and to get up and move if I needed, to adjust my posture if needed,
and that it's a real fine balance between not too tight and not too loose.
It's like a real fine balance.
That taught me. I had to really, really tune into that more and more.
So, yeah, these casualties can happen as we learn.
I was like one of those ones that you learn from a lot of mistakes.
I went through a phase where I was fasting a lot
got down to under 120 pounds or something like that just because of the fanatical mindset
I was in.
Oh my goodness, that makes me want to make you a sandwich right now.
Oh yeah, send it down.
Well, that was like in the 70s.
I'm a lot heavier than that now.
But as Jesus said, the body is the temple of the soul.
It is.
Now, all I do is eat, Irene says.
In fact, I just polished off a big piece of cheesecake that my sister brought me.
I guess we won't dwell on this point too long, but just in passing, like you said, actually
the Buddha talked about the middle way, right, in terms of balance, and in the Bhagavad Gita,
says this yoga is not for him who eats too much or too little, who sleeps too much or too little.
So moderation is advocated by both of those traditions.
- Yep.
- Doesn't mention cheesecake in the Gita. I don't know, what does Buddha say about that?
- Cheesecake, go ahead, enjoy. The Buddha talks a lot about appreciation of life.
- Yeah.
- Mudita is about appreciation, and we're to appreciate life, enjoy life. Meditation
doesn't need to be torture. Meditation is actually designed to be pleasant so that we can liberate
and feel free and we can feel more at ease in the world and a part of the world and not
separate and that we are connected and we have this amazing divine energy flowing through
us.
Pete: Yeah.
Kirsten: And that we have these capacities that are now freed up that we can actually
help the world in a way, much more. So, the Buddha definitely talked about that. And what
What really also freed me up after I met Adia was that I had discovered something called
the progress of insight.
And when I learned about that, I realized that the cycles that I'd been going through were
actually pretty normal.
And that made me go, "Oh, thank you.
You know, I'm okay."
I have been cycling through these like contracted states and then these more expanded states,
and I think I had some ideas about just, it should just be always good or expansive or
better or something. And it was normal to go through those states. And what I needed to
do was to just really become more skillful in self care and gentleness and kindness and
really patience and finding that middle way. Yeah, those difficult states. And after a
big opening, there's generally going to be a more difficult state.
Yeah, because a big opening is conducive to the nervous system being able to free itself
from impurities or some scars or, you know, deep impressions.
And then when those things get released, you're going to experience some roughness probably.
It's like when you're vacuuming the house, there's a lot of noise and commotion, but
you're getting the dust up.
That's right.
And the mind seems like it can only handle so much.
just kind of goes like this and it wants to rest. And sometimes you want to just be a couch
potato for a while. There would be times when I'd have a big opening and then I'd go into
my wood shop and I'd put my hand down on the iron top of my table saw and I'd feel my hand
shaking and I would just go, "Not a good day to cut wood." I think today's a good day for
organizing the shop and for straightening out all of my wood pieces and for making a
plan and for sweeping and vacuuming and getting out my shop back.
And it's not a good day for cutting wood.
So that was how I was always discerning, you know, the way through.
When you said you're balancing, I always feel like some people think that you're balancing,
like you have some kind of overview plan or something.
I was just really with each day, like what does each day need?
What is right now?
What is needed right now and for the rest of the day, just a little bit further into the
future?
What do we need for supper?
What do we need next?
And that is the way to balance it that I knew.
So we're just...
Well, I think what you said about when you have a big opening, you might need to rest
is important because sometimes what you might really need is to sleep a lot or to have a
massage or, you know, do something really soothing, go swimming, something that's rejuvenative
and restful.
And if you keep pushing when your body actually needs rest, then you're... it's counterproductive.
Exactly, exactly. Great time to take a bath.
Yeah, I kind of think.
Get some oils in the bath.
And also what you said about meditation should be enjoyable, I hardly agree with that.
If it isn't, if it's torture to sit and meditate, hardly anybody would stay with it.
And they probably shouldn't, because if it's torture, you're doing something wrong.
You should probably give it up or find something different.
Probably too tight, gotten too tight.
Yeah.
focus is too narrow, and to open it up, relax,
sit back in and down, and breathe in a way that's nourishing.
I mean, you can breathe in ways that's nourishing
and opening so much of what people are doing
is they're pinching off the breath
in different parts of the body,
and you can open those areas,
you can offer breath energy to those areas
to open them up and relax,
and let the whole body be filled with breath energy.
And it's really opening and lovely,
And it can happen this way.
It's really the way forward, I think, is to just relax and tune in.
Yeah, you guide people in this stuff, right?
You have one-on-ones with people and so on.
Yeah.
After this interview, you might want to set up a Zoom thing, if you haven't done it already,
where you can meet with whole groups on a regular basis because there might be a lot
of inquiries.
I have a wise circle that I'm developing with practitioners to come together and really focus
on this middle way of practice where it can be gentle and refreshing and fulfilling.
Yeah.
And deepening.
It gets deeper and deeper, but you do have to be willing to face into the difficult states
because we do have to become friends with fear.
More and more, we have to become friends with fear and that takes more humility and more
openness to the broad open path.
In my own case, I've been through a difficult childhood and I ended up dropping out of high
school and getting into drugs and getting arrested a couple times and when I finally learned
to meditate, it was like, "Oh my God, this is so refreshing," and I stuck with it and
have actually never missed one since 1968.
I just felt like, "Okay, this is my lifeline.
I'm going to stick with this," and I was able to, even though I was a very flaky guy who
wasn't able to be consistent about anything, but I was able to stick with it because it
was so enjoyable and I began to notice so much more motivation.
I got back into school and got a job and this and that.
And I've gone through all kinds of crazy phases over the years as one does as you go through
all the changes of life.
You know, I can look back at certain periods where I was a total nutcase, but if you just
hang in there and stay on the path, you work through that stuff and, you know, it gets
better and better.
I can, you know, I'm happier now at the age of 74 than I've ever been.
Jill: Yay!
Hey, wonderful.
We can celebrate this human life.
It's so precious.
Yeah, send me a sandwich.
Wonderful.
Yeah, there you go.
Definitely.
I feel like we're always, you know, making our own banana cream pie.
As we meditate, we also have to be aware that we're each a little bit different, and we're
in different states of being.
And so I would make a banana cream pie that's gluten free.
So whenever I would practice, I would have to tune into what is the state that's here,
and how can I breathe in a way that's supportive of this state?
Or maybe I need to do walking meditation, maybe walking through the woods, listening to a
podcast or doing something else, maybe taking a bath.
My banana cream pie is gluten-free and sometimes crustless.
And sometimes it's as simple as a slice of banana with some ready whip.
And that's it.
I'm done.
I just got one little bite and it's perfect.
And so we're always kind of making our own pie each day.
What is our pie?
What fits for you?
What is your particular state and what is the context of your life?
There might be some other priorities that need to be assessed.
And then I think it's really important to find a safe home and to ground yourself at
home and have a place where you feel really at home and you feel safe.
Give me a literal home, a physical home.
Yeah, sure.
Yeah.
And wherever that is, just really ground yourself there and feel that this is your safe place.
And from that, then you can build your practice more and more.
That's what it was for me.
It was really important to me to build my own home.
Literally, you did.
Here's my tape measure.
Yeah, you're a carpenter actually.
You and Jesus, yeah.
Right.
So I just would pick this up every day, and this was my grounding, my tape measure.
This is a fairly new one, not as beat up as my old one.
Our house is a really old house, and we ended up tearing off the back of the house and really
having to rebuild the whole thing from the ground up. I had to learn all kinds of stuff
about first getting the structure, getting the foundation, putting up the studs, doing
everything, you know, the drywall on and the framing, everything had to be just right.
And I was always checking. I have my level here, but I always checking to see is it level
or plumb. I remember I worked with one guy who really helped me, he was really great.
And he and I put up a steel column in the basement because what had happened was the back of
the house collapsed at one point and I had to run to Home Depot at the store and run in
and get a jack.
And so I had to get that jack and get home, put that jack up.
And then we had to put in a steel support in the middle of the house to hold up the main
beam coming across.
And then we had to get a portable welder out here to work with that.
And it was like 30 below zero.
It's really cold winter and just do the next thing but I remember he I checked
It wasn't plum when he helped me with this and I said, it's not plum. He said, oh, it's fine. It'll be fine
actually those words well means like
Perpendicular or perfectly straight perfectly straight. Okay, perfectly straight, but a lot of people I worked with would say it'll be fine
Right, they're sloppy. It's not fine
So I would say no and then he'd say it'll be fine
I'd say well
I'm going to think about you every time I walk by that and the next thing I know he came back and fixed it
So we got along great. So I did have some help with it, but a lot of the work I did myself
Yeah, and this one I'm for years and years years and years while you're raising sons and creating websites and going to
spiritual retreats
Must have figured out the by location city or something
Yeah, but having a home is really really important and all those poor people in Gaza right now who are crowded into Rafa
Living in tents and waiting for the next invasion and so on
It's insane and the trauma of little children at that age going through that kind of thing
I know it breaks which is not to say it wasn't traumatic for the Israelis when Hamas invaded
I'm not saying that but anyone anywhere the Ukraine for instance
I mean, it's just so sad when people are subjected to all this stuff. I know it's like there's this complete denial about the importance
Of this human life. Yeah, and it just creates trauma that I think lasts a lifetime for many people
Yeah, I'm really grateful for the people here speaking out for them. Mm-hmm. I'm really really grateful
It's so important. You know, we do need to speak out. We need to do what we can with this human life. Yeah
Let's keep moving along because you did have and you say you awakened in 2008 and we're proceeding a little bit
Chronologically here and we haven't gotten to that yet
But I want to be sure to get to it and also your book you finished it 15 years ago or something
So I want to find out what's been going on since then. So let's budget our time and make sure we cover all that
Okay.
You've done a bunch of camping trips and spiritual retreats and you went to Malaysia for three
months and all kinds of stuff.
Right.
And then I had discovered the progress of insight and I went, okay, all right.
And I saw that I had been cycling just like that.
I had been going through these same states over and over again.
And I'd been getting into this wonderful, beautiful state of equanimity, which was really
high functioning for me.
And so often when I would get into the state of equanimity, I would be like, "Well, come
on, kids, let's go for a bike ride.
Let's build another wall.
Let's do all this cool stuff."
And then after reading that, I realized that was the point I needed to stay still.
I needed to be really still.
Pete: Because?
Kirsten: Because that was where the whole mind has such an open and vast perspective that
this was almost like a moment of potential for something deeper.
So stay still means don't take a bike ride, don't build a wall.
In other words, don't sort of try to busy yourself.
Right.
Okay.
Just sit still.
And so then I realized I needed to have continuous practice.
I needed really focused practice on retreat.
And so that's when I decided to go to Malaysia and check into an intensive meditation center.
Pretty intensive.
It sounded intensive.
I read all about it in the book.
all kinds of stuff going on there and physical difficulties with mosquitoes and mud and leaky
things and spicy things and bats and lizards and snakes creepy things monkeys over there yeah right
but it sounded like it went well for you for the most part you had a big opening there um the
teacher there liked you and yeah he almost became kind of peers at a certain point it seemed he sat
down on the floor with you rather than sitting up on his chair and you know there's a camaraderie.
Yeah there was. I think it takes a great deal of maturity to really see your teacher
as a human being and to see your teacher and appreciate your teacher as an awakened human
being here and now and that there is no hierarchy ultimately. Right. That we are just here. So in
other words if someone were less spiritually mature they might idolize their teacher or
consider themselves to be just a fallen creature by comparison with that lofty soul that's sitting in
front of them and that kind of thing. Right, I think that's really disempowering. It is,
and it can be problematic too because you can let the teacher get away with all kinds of shenanigans
if you do that. It's really disempowering and it's insulting to the practice. And yet one can be
respectful to one's teacher. Of course. You know, it's not like, "Hey man, let's go shoot some pool."
There's an appreciation and even a reverence and a devotion.
- Yes, that's why it's beyond dualistic thinking.
All of these parts are together.
All of this multi way of viewing is together.
And there's a deep, deep respect for my teacher.
He lives in my heart.
He lives in my heart always.
- Let's get subjective for a while,
because we've been talking about all these objective things
like house building and traveling and kids and whatnot.
I know it's difficult because these subjective states are sometimes beyond words, but try to
chart out for us the stages of your subjective growth, your inner experience, how you view the
world, how you view yourself as your consciousness has shifted, if we want to use those words.
Well, everything is just happening.
Well, everyone can say that, right? Everything's happening.
It is just happening. So there isn't any separation. It's almost indescribable. And there's a deep
intimacy with what is, with what is. Even right now, it's just feel my seat. You know, I feel
appreciation, I feel the breath in the body, a connection with everything that is. And it's
already here. It's a gift. It's already arising and passing. So when you say there isn't any
separation, how would you compare that experience with what you might have experienced 30 or
40 years ago when you looked at a tree or person or something? What's the difference?
It was like that's over there, but it's not over there. It's also here. So there's no
over there, there. It's also here. And it's so rich and deep. And it's also flowing. There's
There's a flowing, a vital aliveness within us, you know, and there's also a deep, deep
connection with our divinity.
And also, like, one of my concerns is that people think that if you're awakened that
you're like better than other people or something, you know, you're actually just more human.
And just more present to being here now, and more caring, more compassionate.
me anyway. That's my experience. It's hard to describe. It's really indescribable. You know,
I use a lot of different words in my book for this sense of being is what I felt after stream entry.
This just being like down and connected and through and being with everything that is. And
there's been a lot of adjusting, a lot of adjusting to this over the years and deepening more and more.
Jordan: So, stream entry happened in Malaysia? Describe what is meant by stream entry.
Jessica: Well, in Theravada Buddhism, they consider that the first stage of abiding awakening.
That means that it's irreversible.
Jordan: What is the stream that you're entering?
Jessica: The stream is life, all of life and through, and you're in it.
Jordan: Like the flow of divine consciousness or intelligence or something like that?
Jessica: Yeah.
And so rather than not being aware that there is such a thing or resisting it or something
like that, you just have merged with it to the extent that you can flow with it.
Well, there were still times where old habitual patterns would come up where I'd be like pushing
away and it would really hurt more.
It was more painful to push against it at that point, really painful.
So it's a process of cooperation.
We need to cooperate with this human life.
And it's way more powerful than even the mind can handle.
It's beyond the mind.
It's huge.
It's just awesome.
Because what you're referring to is a much vaster consciousness or a much vaster intelligence.
It's not just contained within our skull.
So if we're going to merge with that, we have to cooperate with it.
the word stream. The stream is flowing along. If you're gonna get in the stream, you want
to flow with the stream. If you're kind of like hanging on to a rock or something like
that, then there's all this turbulence.
Right. And the Buddha talked about using the Noble Eightfold Path, for sure, all the way
to the stream. And once you're in the stream, continue.
Would it be worth running through what those eight things are?
The Noble Eightfold Path, first right view.
Meaning what?
Having a view of life which I developed early in life, which is that we are participants,
that we are all participants in this human life, that we are part of it, and having an
openness to life.
And probably I would include less dualistic thinking, really.
Looking at some of the things that I was doing was actually Right View, working with Dyed.
I think that was a development of Right View quite a bit.
I don't know if I can name all of them right now.
Oh, that's okay.
Maybe just any ones that come to mind as being most significant or...
Really having an intention for clarity, for presence, for honesty, connection, gentleness
for me was the way.
You do seem very gentle.
I really appreciate that.
I wasn't one of your sons and didn't get to experience what it was like if I broke a window,
but you seem very gentle.
Yeah.
And being gentle is so important.
Yeah.
important I think but we also have to be firm sometimes too. Okay that's enough of
that. You can be both. That's right. Gentle I sometimes would equate with the word
subtle as opposed to crude, gross, you know, heavy. One can be very subtle and at the
same time be firm it doesn't mean you become a pushover. That's right. I just
didn't feel like I was doing it anymore. Everything is just sort of happening.
whatever's left of the eye is just trying to participate and continue to cooperate.
And any resistance to what is just needs to be faced into. Row, row, row your boat
gently down the stream. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The stream's doing it, really. You're just kind
of using the paddle just a little bit so you don't crash into something. Yeah, exactly.
When I went off to Malaysia, I was so glad because they had changed from analog
to digital on our TVs. Oh, yeah. And I told my sons, Oh, you guys won't be able to watch
your TV shows. When I go, oh, well, I thought would help them focus more on their homework
and doing first things first and taking good care of themselves and stuff like that. And
I thought, well, we don't have a thing to convert the analog to digital. So, oh, well,
and I had this experience in Malaysia where I sort of had a psychic experience where I
I popped in on them, and I saw that they were helping each other at the computer because
I had set them up with two computers side by side, like, to help each other.
And I thought, "Oh, that's good.
They're helping each other."
And then when I got home, I realized that they had helped each other find their shows
on the internet.
Pete: Ah, so they could watch them.
Kirsten: Right.
So, they were very, very inventive and they figured out another way to get what they needed
anyway.
Pete: That's great.
Kirsten: Even though I was gone.
So that's when I realized, when I came back, I realized I can't go against this dream.
They're connecting with film, they're connecting with all kinds of things in the world.
And I have these two sons, ages 14 and 17 and 18, right in there.
And I went, "Okay, we're going to have to get a digital TV."
And they were like, "What?"
And I said, "Yeah, we're going to have to do that."
So then what I did is I spent years watching what they watch and sharing it with them.
And after we watch a show, we really talk about it.
We really, really talk about it.
And I watch them, like watch all of these shows that have all this male toxicity in
them and these hero things that they are watching.
And so then I would just ask questions afterwards, like how did that feel?
And what do you guys think about that?
And did you notice that that African-American man was eliminated in the first 20 minutes?
Why is that always happening?
Let's look into this.
And so over the years, we've had a lot of conversations.
When we watch a film, we talk about the film for at least an hour.
Wow, that's great.
And we look at it from the psychological point of view, the theological point of view, the
sociological point of view, the internalized oppressive point of view, if there's any of
that in the system.
We talk about it from the political point of view and also from the materialistic point
of view.
So, years went by, okay, and I asked my son one day, "One of your favorite old movies is
coming up and there's a sequel.
Do you want to see it?"
And he went, "Mom, it's just war propaganda."
Interesting.
And I was like, "Wow."
You know, all these conversations have really shaped a lot of things in my family and how
we discuss things and how we look at things. And so, that's also, I think, an outcome of
the awakening.
Pete: That's very interesting. Wow.
Kirsten: Leaning in and being curious about the people we love and what are they thinking
and trying to have conversations that matter.
Pete: Yeah.
Kirsten: And trying to talk about things where what they view is also out on the table. Because
I would see them disagreeing and they'd be fighting with each other and I'd go, oh,
that's just a sociological point of view and that's the psychological point of view.
And they'd go, "Oh, thanks."
And we could have these conversations more and more.
And that's what's been so rich is this aliveness that I brought home from the awakening that
I don't know if I would have really gotten it as much beforehand, because I just wasn't
afraid to approach these conversations and difficulties.
And I wasn't able to discern all of these different points of view.
Like there's a lot of different points of view.
Like we've said, we've talked about really tragic and horrific points of view that are
out there, and they're so limited, you know, but we can open our consciousness and we can
look at our capacities in different ways.
And we can discuss things in ways that really help people kind of go, "Oh, yeah, hmm, I'm
kind of holding on to this point of view.
What if I loosened it up and I saw that I don't have to be right?
I don't have to be right.
I can be a student of life.
And I can learn, I can learn here about this life.
What are some of the most interesting and informative movies that you and your family
have watched together and discussed?
I can think of like four, but one that we like, of course, is The Matrix.
We like The Matrix a lot.
Sure.
And Inception.
Oh, yeah.
With Leonardo DiCaprio, was it?
Yeah.
really deals with the deep levels of consciousness, deep inside the mind, you know, and what is
hiding in there that really wants to be seen, really wants to be seen.
And that also happened to me after stream entry, I was able to really see these deep
parts of myself that I had still been holding, but that I was able to go, I was still holding
that and these, these little adhesions would come up more and more and I could see them
and free them up with so much compassion and so much openness.
It was so much better.
I was able to do that.
One of my favorite films I'd like to recommend is a film called The Quiet Girl.
The Quiet Girl.
Highly recommend it.
It's a movie that's about how a girl needs a home and she stays with some relatives and
they're kind to her.
They treat her with kindness and just the tender kindness is shown throughout the film,
little by little how she's transformed.
And actually watching the film for the first time,
I was a little worried about her.
But I'll give you a spoiler alert.
You don't have to worry.
(laughing)
You don't have to worry about her.
Because she, just like us, gets kindness.
We get it.
- It's nice.
- When you're treated with sincerity and kindness,
you get it.
And that's what we need to do with one another.
So another movie recently that I like
that we were just talking about was "Perfect Days."
We really do connect a lot with film.
One of my sons is a great editor.
He loves film.
Yeah, they're both wonderful.
If anybody came over to the house
and watched a movie with us,
they would be amazed at what happens after the movie
with these conversations,
because we have to just go,
okay, you go, now you, now you.
We have so much rich view of what's happening
and understanding,
and when you watch them, you participate in it.
You know, feel what is happening to you.
How are you affected by what is going on?
And this is also a metaphor for life.
How are we affected when you walk down the street?
When you see a dog barking?
When you see things around you?
How are you affected by that?
I mean, this is what we need to pay attention to.
So I really brought that home.
I think this was more of a key change
that I think really impacted my life
the life of my family. Because we could just talk about the description of consciousness
and all these feelings and all this stuff like that. But it really impacted my life
and my family's life. And also a lot of patience came up too. It took 11 years to get the kitchen.
Okay. It takes what it takes. Little by little, cabinet by cabinet, we built it and we got
it done. And it's really nice.
That's great. Well, if I ever come to Minneapolis, I'll come over for a movie, a sandwich, and
some cheesecake.
That'd be great. Or a banana cream pie.
A banana cream pie, yeah, and a big discussion. So, stream entry, okay. As I understand it,
stream entry is kind of an initial stage, you know, considering how many more stages
there are. I've heard about all these genres, I couldn't tell you what they are. Daniel
Ingram says he's an arhot, and he's not shy to say it, but I'm not so much conversant with
the Buddhist terminology, but in your own experience after the stream entry thing, which happened
15 years ago or more, can you outline how it has evolved, some stages of progress? And
I know that there's that whole thing of, you know, those who know don't say and those who
say don't know, but still, as Daniel would emphasize, or as Jesus said, we shouldn't
hide our light under a bushel, we can, we should be able to talk about these things.
At least that's how books got written about them, or the ancient scriptures, somebody
wrote it down and people should know well if I'm going to do this what's the payoff?
What could I expect to experience after 20 years of practice or something that would
really make it worthwhile?
It just continues to unfold more and more.
More happiness, blissfulness, wisdom or...
Yes.
Compassion.
Love.
Wisdom, love, over and over.
I was just eating something the other day and I realized I understand so many things.
Like when Jesus said, "This is my body, this is my blood."
Like I get that.
How do you interpret that?
We are all connected through everything.
We're actually in every breath and every drink of water and everything that we do, the earth
and every piece is all connected through everything.
And it's just deeper and deeper.
The levels of training and the levels of work that I'm doing, I reserve for my teachers.
The closer conversations with my teachers about stages and levels at this point, but
I am free to talk about stream entry.
And I have been given support by my teachers to talk about stream entry.
Okay.
So in other words, you're actually advised not to talk about some of these more things
because they're too intimate or it wouldn't be constructive to talk about them for you
or perhaps others.
Right, on this forum, but in more close circles.
Right, private classes and things.
Private classes I would, with private students, but in this forum it's better for me not to.
No, I understand.
I've been on courses where, you know, six-month meditation courses where people are mic hogs,
they're just getting up on the mic and just boasting about all these flashy experiences
that they're having and everything, and then 20 years later they've really gone off the
deep end into some dark place. And so what was all that about? You know, I've
interviewed some other people who, like Swami Sarvapayananda, for instance, who
I respect a lot, and in his tradition he says, "We just don't say. You never get me
to admit to any state of enlightenment or anything else. It's not something that
you would talk about." Well, once you get into the stream, you pretty much get
moving forward. If you have good teaching and you have good support, you really just get
pulled more and more closer and more intimate into the process. It's been hard for me to
talk about it. I haven't had that many people talk about it. So it's fun to talk about it
with you, Rick. And hopefully others will benefit from this. And that was how my teachers
approved of this book and said, for this purpose, we would like this to be inspiring to others.
And that's what I hope is.
Did you ever read Peace Pilgrim's little book?
No.
You'd like it. It was this lady who called herself Peace Pilgrim and she just walked around the United States wearing a sweatshirt that said Peace Pilgrim on it, with nothing but the clothes on her back, no money, no nothing, completely at the mercy of God or nature or whatever.
And she did this for years. And she was never harmed, she was always fed or given a place to sleep, almost always, it was a little rough sometimes.
And she just has this radiant, saintly look on her face. The reason I thought of her was that you
talked about how after stream entry, it just sort of really accelerates. And she actually had this
little chart in her book. She didn't call it stream entry, but prior to awakening, whatever
she called it, that it was sort of wiggly up and down. But then once you reach a certain point,
it just takes off because God is in the driver's seat or something after that. And so, it's a lot
better driving.
Jill: And it's true, a lot of it depends on your willingness. Like, I continued to be
extremely willing and open. And I did go to Spirit Rock. I came home in November and I
went to Spirit Rock in March on a full, intensive, silent retreat. And that really brought deeper
practice, intensive practice very quickly. And that pile of rocks that was on my driveway
when I got home from Malaysia...
- Oh yeah, I heard about that.
- I sat there for about three years.
I was going through a lot of adjustment
and we had to rebuild that retaining wall
because it wasn't plumb.
So it took us a while to do a lot of things and go slow.
And I really want my story to help people understand
to go slow, be gradual, take it easy.
You know, you don't need a lot of bleed through and trouble.
You can actually be gentle and take it easy,
slow things down. Reminds me of Brother Sun Sister Moon. There's that beautiful song
and it would do few things and do them well take your time go slowly. Yeah.
Remember that? Donovan sang those songs. It's beautiful. Is your husband Stuart still in the game?
Oh yeah he's okay. We all work together. Okay good. He's a saint. He was just
hanging in there with you know all this wild stuff you're going through. I know. I
I know. He's just got his way of supporting us and he loves us, you know, through the things that he does.
That's great.
We have different ways of being, different ways of communicating, and I really respect and love him for all of the work he's done and that he continues to do for us.
Several times in the last few minutes you've said, "My teacher said I could do this, my teacher said I could do that."
And some people might hear that and they think, "Well, wait a minute. Can't she do whatever the heck she wants? Why does she have to take orders from her teachers?"
And I could give an answer to that, but I'd like to hear you respond to that.
Well, I think it's about a resonance in the advice.
It isn't just what they said, but I resonate with it.
And so, I think that it's wise for me.
I also don't really want to give ideas about other stages of awakening.
Well, I'm not questioning that, the decision not to talk about those stages.
But just the point of obeying a teacher, you know, that's a little
problematic for some people.
- Yeah, I'm actually--
- And it's actually, it's abused in some cases.
- Well, I'm not very good at that.
I've never been very good at that.
Generally, I don't get along very well with hierarchy
because of all of my years in recovery
where everyone was equal
and if there was someone else that needed to speak,
I actually love the days when we didn't have a speaker
and someone just had to step up and that was the day
and we all learned from that person.
I've had trouble in organizations where there's a lot of hierarchy.
I don't do well with that.
Also, a lot of women have been harmed through the patriarchy for a long time, and I've really
felt that, and I'm aware of that.
And so, it isn't that my teacher said, it's just that in conversation, it felt wise for
me to agree.
Yeah.
I was just having a conversation with a friend this morning, and we were talking about how
some spiritual teachers lament that they actually don't have any friends who are peers, you know,
who are not treating them special. And the only friends they have are their students,
but there's this hierarchical feeling, especially if they wanted to, you know, have a kind of
romantic relationship with somebody, it's very problematic. And we were talking about how
teachers really need to have a circle of friends who can call them on their stuff,
treat them like an ordinary Joe, not make a big fuss about them, things like that.
Jill That's right, and that's why I'm interested
in this organization that you've started. And, you know, signing up for that as well,
and getting to know other people.
Pete You're referring to the Association for
Spiritual Integrity, which is spiritual-integrity.org. And that's one of our functions is to help to
create networks. We actually have this little thing where people create these little subgroups
and have a monthly Zoom meeting or something with just four people where they can kind of touch
base and see how they're doing and check up on each other, things like that. Yeah, it's true.
I feel like the kind of role that I would hold is sort of like we're at different places on the path,
but we're the same distance from the ditch. Yeah, I like that phrase. I remember that one. Yeah,
I really feel that there is some respect for having more experience and holding space that is
based in respect and kindness and really working with skills around that. But that everyone has
a voice. Everyone has wisdom to share. Everyone is something to offer. I don't want to be like this
little, you know, attention. I don't think I could do that. I would like to hear from others like a
wisdom circle. Pete: Yeah, that's really good. I've actually seen situations in which constructive
criticism is not allowed. And if it's offered, that person is ostracized. Literally, their bags are
packed for them and they're out of there. That's really difficult. I like to be corrected. Please
correct me if I'm wrong. I want to be corrected. And everyone needs it because nobody, in my
experience, is above or beyond self-delusion. It's easy to be blind to one's own weak spots and
limitations and you really need a peer of some sort, perhaps a spouse, perhaps a friend,
or perhaps a circle of friends.
Where's that poem by Robert Burns, "Oh, would some God the gift he give us to see ourselves
as others see us."
You know?
Pete It's true.
I think we need feedback.
And like, I recently told someone who is a friend of mine who's very highly enlightened
that he is an oaf.
Pete You're acting a lot like an oaf.
And the indifference is inappropriate.
This is not a time for that kind of, I don't know if it's equanimity, but the near enemy
of equanimity is indifference.
And there can be a lot of spiritual teachers that get into this sort of indifference, like
they're above it all or something.
No, we need to stay centered in the heart and connected with the heart and have compassion
for many things and struggles and traumas that are part of our own lives.
I was recently part of a trauma in my own life.
So I'm really, really aware of that.
Yeah, that's really good.
People can connect with me on conversations and on Substack.
I have some videos and newsletters and learn more about me.
And my way of being in the world is to just be myself,
just working with life as it is.
I don't want to be above anything.
I want to just be with what is right here,
even if it's really difficult, and it has been many, many times in my life, very difficult.
Yeah, that's interesting what you said about indifference. You know, there's that phrase
spiritual bypassing.
Oh, yeah.
You've heard of that one, where people somehow use some spiritual concept or even experience
to elude things that they actually should be dealing with.
Yeah, I guess I just look at that as one of the hindrances. And part of the way I teach
is to look at the five hindrances.
And as we bring up and we awaken
the factors of enlightenment within us,
the hindrances go down.
So the factors of enlightenment are within us.
And as they go up, the hindrances go down.
And we don't want to hide.
We don't want to be dishonest.
We want to know.
We want to really work with this.
This is workable material.
This is cool stuff.
We want to know it and be with it.
and it's juicy, it's alive, it's got vital life force
flowing through all the time.
It's amazing.
- Nice.
What is your method of teaching now?
Like, what do you do?
How often do you do it with people?
- I have a chart.
- Why don't you go into some details on those,
we have time.
- So I actually, whenever I was doing a fourth step,
which is in the 12-step program.
For many, many years, I was taking inventory
on what was going on with me that was preventing me
from being closer to turning over my will and my life.
And I didn't realize it that actually it was the same
as these five hindrances, which the Buddha talked about
and are discussed in Theravada Buddhism.
And so it really helps to get familiar
with these five hindrances.
They're like clouds that once we see them,
we can just see, oh, that's a delusion.
And then-- - Remind us what they are.
The first one is desire.
So desire is grasping for something, greed or desire.
You really want something, you're pulling it toward you.
And then the next one is--
- Wait a minute, before you go to the next one.
So what's the difference between,
I want some cheesecake or,
I want some cheesecake.
- That's the difference.
That's the difference.
The compulsiveness, the real urgency.
- Attachment, maybe.
- The attachment, yeah.
The clinging, instead of seeing that this is an option
and it's not harmful.
there's nothing wrong with it. You can enjoy it. But if you don't get it, it's not the end of the world. Right, right.
And so then the next one is inappropriate anger or ill will. And that also includes boredom.
Because sometimes when we're bored, we're saying to the universe, you're not interesting enough to me.
I don't like you universe. And we don't see our participation. So we have to look at our participation in these.
Some say that anger is blocked desire, thwarted desire.
If you desire something and you meet up against a wall,
then the inappropriate but all too common reaction is to flare up in anger.
Right, right. And so for these first two hindrances, the desire and the anger are like
two sides, like that's one side and that's the other side.
So one is grasping, clinging, and one is pushing away, not wanting.
And so it's really important to be aware of this happening because in samsara is nirvana.
Define those terms.
So samsara is the cycle of suffering that we're going through over and over again.
And when we get closer and closer into it and we get really close and gentle and feel
it in our body and the sensate awareness, the release comes.
So we have to get intimate with what is going on and what we're participating in and what
these habitual tendencies are.
And so we all have these too.
We all have them.
And that's one of the things that freed me up in studying Theravada Buddhism was because
I had been looking at all of these things going on within me for years and years and
years.
And in the program, they were labeled as defects of character.
And so I thought there's something wrong with me, but there's nothing wrong.
It's just part of what we need to work with.
It's just part of the workable batter that's here, that we can learn to become more and
more skillful with and more honest about.
And so those two are like one side of the coin,
the other side of the coin,
it's compulsive desire and then the anger and ill will.
And then the next two hindrances are also like
one side of the coin and the other.
So the next one is stagnation,
which we can label as a kind of overall sort of stuckness,
kind of like a mud puddle with sticks and moss
and everything grown over it.
- Like dullness, lethargy.
fullness, lethargy, just kind of like a,
uh, like real cloudiness.
The next one is agitation,
where you're just overexcited, overstimulated.
Now, agitation is just like the water is just all like this.
And then the stagnation is like the water's like this.
And so those two are also good to be aware of,
like how is the energy moving here and here?
And what can you do to support yourself
to move through that with some clarity
and some kindness and gentleness.
And then underneath all of these is doubt.
And with stream entry, the doubt gets severely,
the doubt is gone,
because you realize at this point
that there isn't any other way but this.
You have to pay attention to what is.
And so the doubt is also something to become friends with,
because when you look at your relationship with doubt,
you're building a sense of faith in the process.
And so I feel like the doubt is sort of like the bottom,
like all in here, and then these are these hindrances here.
And so I wanted to do a drawing about it,
but I haven't done that yet.
And this is really important.
We have to get honest with ourselves.
Like I said before, in the beginning,
you have to remove shame.
You have to remove inappropriate shame
and feelings of unworthiness when these things come up
because that prevents you from learning.
If there's overwhelming shame, you can't learn.
But like you said, it's okay to have shame for inappropriate behavior.
If I've done something wrong, I want to be corrected.
And so there might be some appropriate shame.
I want to resolve not to do that again.
And I want to apologize and I want to repair and make amends.
That's an appropriate amount of shame.
But sometimes in our culture, there's just an overwhelming, constricted sense of shame
for learning, for just learning about this human life.
Because as kids and in school, you don't get taught emotional states of being and being in different states and working through difficult states.
You know, this just this emotional intelligence is not honored and supported in our society.
I try to teach through that and then the mindfulness of being aware of these states with a sense
of generosity and kindness for yourself as you really tune in to what's happening and
possibly also uncover some deeply hidden beliefs that are there and working through whatever
it is and then getting closer and closer into meditation and what you're comfortable with
for sitting times.
I think people should build up gradually, very gradually.
I've been sitting for years and years and years,
but before I went to Malaysia,
I was sitting three times a day
and then I was doing half day retreats
and then weekend retreats and then a five day retreat
and then a 10 day retreat.
And then I went on a big long retreat.
So I do think it's really important
to gradually build up your sitting practice
so that you're really staying centered
you're integrated with your life and your family and at home, you feel safe, you can start to work
with what's happening because this sense of self gets all broken up. And you probably need some
instruction on how to meditate, otherwise you can't just sit and you need to know what to do a little
bit. There needs to be some kind of confirmation that you're doing the right thing or not doing the
right thing and so on. It's different for different people. The Buddha taught like 37 different types
of meditation. Yeah, there's something called the Shiva Sutras, which outlines something
like 108 different ways of transcending. Yeah, and that's a discovery process. You know,
I'm not a Buddha and I'm not as wise as all of that. So it's a discovery process with
each student, they sometimes find their own path through that too. You had the other side
of that chart, you had the hindrances side and the enlightenment side. So the other side
is mindfulness. So mindfulness, investigation. So really need to have a sense of natural
curiosity and be open with what's happening and then being aware of energy. You do need
energy. Now, if you're in stagnation, then we need to get things moving, need to get
things opened up, bring in some fresh air, bring in some water energy, and really move
energy. You do need energy. And it has to be wholesome energy. It's balanced, like not
too tight, too loose.
Finding that middle ground with energy is so important.
And then right in the middle here is nurturing contentment.
A lot of people don't realize that when they're sitting on a bench waiting for the bus, just
enjoy that.
And you feel like, "Ugh!"
Doesn't make the bus come any faster.
Right!
When is it going to get here?
You know, just enjoy.
Yeah.
There are so many moments throughout the day.
Maybe have a nice conversation with somebody who's sitting on the bench with you.
Yes, yes, I met a beautiful woman once who really helped me on the bus stop.
She was beautiful.
She really gave me advice.
She was like 40 years older than me at the time.
She was so nice.
Yeah, we can pay attention.
And then the next thing is tranquility.
How can you build more tranquility into your life, more peace, more simplicity, and then
feeling the tranquility as you settle into meditation, you feel that sense of inner peace
and calm and letting that arise, those feelings of delight, like you said when you enjoyed
meditation, letting that arise.
Yes, blissful.
For some people it arises for a few seconds and they're like, "What's that?"
They're not used to it, you know, like, "What?
What just happened?
That was nice.
Oh!"
You can deepen in that.
You can let that deepen and you can refresh yourself with that more and more.
And then that leads you into Samadhi.
That leads you into deep samadhi and then that leads you to equanimity.
And equanimity is that wonderful harmonious balance within that's just right here, right
here.
And we don't realize it.
I didn't know until I really got into Buddhist practice that when you're practicing meditation,
these hindrances are at bay.
They're relaxed.
They're not there.
And so then the mind is free.
It's free to just really be present with these beautiful states of being, delight, joy, peace.
These other states are available to us and you don't need any drugs.
You don't need any drugs, they're like perfectly here and available.
It's amazing to me, well, if so many people knew about this and they could just take their
time and go slow and be gentle and develop this more and more as part of their life,
it would help the whole world.
And we've all got it within us. It's like I sometimes say it's like we've all won the lottery
But most of us have the winning ticket in a sock drawer, and we don't realize we've won and we're begging on the street
You know what we're actually multi millionaires, right?
exactly
Just flying here. Oh my isn't it. What is that saying Kermit the Frog times fun when you're having flies?
Yeah, so this has been a delightful couple of hours. I've really enjoyed talking to you and getting to know you better and
you really radiate what you talk about and
Not an ounce of phoniness in you
Appreciate it
so I'll be putting up a page on that gap with a link to your website and
Anything else you want me to link to like you said this sub stack thing or something?
I can link to that make sure I have everything I need to link to and
And people can go there and get in touch, get on a mailing list if you have one, or organize
to have classes with you, or whatever.
Thank you so much.
I have a Substack newsletter, Constance Casey on Substack.
That's where most people sign up to know about my events and classes and things like that.
Yeah.
So I hope you get a nice back-gap bump, as we call it.
Thank you.
May this be a benefit to all beings.
Yeah, well that's the idea for all this.
So thanks Constance and thank you to your husband and your sons and everybody who has been supporting you and enabling you to make the wonderful progress that you've made.
Yeah, the apparent me is made that's here, that's grateful, that's so grateful for all of the support.
Good. Alrighty. Well, thanks to those who've been listening or watching. And there's an
upcoming interviews page on datgap.com so you can see who we've got scheduled. We usually
only schedule about a month in advance, but you can always take a look at that. And then
of course, check out all the other menus on datgap.com. Like if you'd like to be notified
by email whenever there's a new interview, sign up for that or subscribe to the YouTube
channel and YouTube will notify you and so on. You guys know how to do this kind of stuff.
Let's check out what we have to offer.
Yeah, I think it's really great that you have all this variety and that you're really encouraging.
I feel like you're like an awakening doula.
Oh, yeah, doula is like a birth person, right?
Or no, a death person.
They have death doulas also.
They have birth doulas and death doulas now.
Yeah.
Like an awakening doula and bringing all of these voices together and giving this voice
to let people know that there are these options.
Yeah, maybe I'm a yenta.
Remember Fiddler on the Roof?
Oh, that's right.
Yeah, you know, I love playing that kind of role.
So, thanks to you, thanks to those who have been listening or watching,
and we'll see you for the next one.
Okay, bye-bye.
Bye.
Thank you.