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[Music]

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Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer. Buddha at the Gas Pump is an ongoing series of conversations with spiritually awakening people.

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All those words in the previous sentence were chosen carefully. I've done over 700 of these now.

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If this is new to you and you would like to check out previous ones, go to batgap.com, B-A-T-G-A-P, and look under the past interviews menu.

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you. This program is made possible through the support of appreciative listeners

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and viewers, so if you appreciate it and would like to help support it, there are

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PayPal buttons on every page of the website and a page that offers

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alternatives to PayPal. We have had a project going on for a few years now of

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having transcripts of all the interviews properly proofread, and the end is in

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sight, but there's still quite a few to do, so if you would like to help proofread

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some transcripts, get in touch. And we also have, well, I'm not sure if this is relevant,

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we have a thing called the BatGap Bot, which is an AI chat bot to which I've uploaded tens

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of thousands of relevant documents, and it's getting more and more popular. So if you'd like

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to check that out, go to BatGap, and you'll see a menu item for that. Okay, my guest today is

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Constance Casey, MDIV. I'll tell you in a minute what that is. Constance is an author and teacher

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providing spiritual guidance for those interested in living a gentle and peaceful life.

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That sounds nice.

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Constance offers guidance for those entering deeper practice into the nature of reality

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and adjusting to a shift in consciousness.

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Her awakening occurred in 2008.

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She has been practicing in the contemplative arts for over 40 years,

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first through her years in recovery, and then as she deepened in Buddhist practice in 2007,

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which she shares in her memoir.

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This is her memoir. It's called "A Time for Awakening" and I read it in the previous week or so.

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She's a graduate of the Spirit Rock Dharma Leader Program. Some of her teachers include Trudy Goodman

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and Jack Kornfield. Constance obtained a Master's of Divinity focusing on religious studies and went

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on to do hospital chaplaincy work. As an interfaith hospital chaplain, she offered compassionate care

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for patients and families while embracing the spectrum of human experiences. Although she tells

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me that work is tapered off because they weren't too crazy about Buddhist chaplains, but anyway,

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we'll talk about that too. She's also authorized by Naropa University to teach meditation. Constance's

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practice is primarily informed by the suttas in Theravada Buddhism, where she has developed her

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own online classes, the most recent one called "Clearing Skies, Dispelling the Clouds that Hinder

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Us," and she leads support groups for dedicated meditation practitioners. Through her experience,

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she respects and values your unique spiritual practice and journey while supporting you to

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find balance and significance in the face of adversity. Constance will encourage you to

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attune toward being more mindful and aware for release and serenity. Her first book,

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which I just held up, called Time for Awakening, a memoir, shares her story of awakening and deeper

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meditation practice and is what brings her to our meeting today. And so welcome Constance.

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Thank you. Thank you, Rick.

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The main thing that hit me about your book, the main impression I was left with,

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was the ardency and intensity of your spiritual search. There are a lot of spiritual teachers

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and also various scriptures such as Patanjali's Yoga Sutras which correlate the termination or

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the intensity of the seeker with the speed and fullness with which realization is attained.

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Patanjali actually breaks it down in terms of like lukewarm and medium and vehemently intense,

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and he says those are the ones that get it the fastest. The impressive thing is that, you know,

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you had this really burning desire and you put it into practice with hours and hours and hours

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of meditation, many of which were not all that comfortable, and in the meanwhile,

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you're renovating a house, building websites, raising kids, dealing with all the vicissitudes

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of life and you managed to balance that because you know a lot of people you tell them about

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this kind of thing and they'll say well I'm just too busy I couldn't possibly spend 20

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minutes meditating I don't have time I will say to them well then time has you so anyway

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congratulations it was inspiring to read your story well thank you Rick I'm really glad

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to hear that I've heard a lot of different things about the book and everyone has a different

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reaction. And I'm really glad that you brought that up about the ardency and the different

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ways of tuning in, like our different levels of ardency. The Buddha also had described

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four different levels of people who are open to receiving the Dharma. And he said that

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there were those who had a lot of dust in their eyes. In fact, he was so concerned on

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the night of his awakening that he didn't think he would want to teach because he thought

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This is very subtle.

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This is very difficult.

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And there's maybe too many with dust in their eyes.

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And then he was visited and told, "No, there are some.

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There are some."

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And he assessed that there were like four different levels.

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Those with too much dust that maybe many, many lifetimes they need to really work with getting

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grounded in kindness and gentleness and honesty in their lives and connection.

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And those people are learning a lot.

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And then there's another level of people who are learning through mistakes, lots of mistakes

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and falling back and getting back up and falling back, getting back up.

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And then there are those that are really listening and kind of getting it, kind of clicking.

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Then there are those that like really get it.

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They just need a little bit of instruction and they get it.

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And I feel like in this lifetime, I was like the third, I was falling down.

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In my book, it may seem like it happened in just one year, but no, it was a long practice.

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Yeah, I am inclined to believe in reincarnation.

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And when I meet somebody like you, and I've met many people about whom I could say this,

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I figure, well, you've been at this for quite a while, and you're just picking up where

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you left off.

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Right, exactly.

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Exactly.

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And I just really want to impress upon your listeners and anyone out there who's listening

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right now.

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importance of this precious human life. How beautiful and important this life is.

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The life that you have right here on this earth is a divine expression and

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that if we can just tune in to just pause right now like wherever you are if

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you are washing your dishes right now or you're out in the yard raking and

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listening to this on a podcast can you just take a pause because really it's

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about being here right now. Can you just tune in even if you're washing the

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dishes right now? Can you feel the temperature as you're washing the

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dishes? Can you just really tune in and be more present in your life? For me, right

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now I'm sitting here and I'm thinking this conversation is the most important

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thing because it's right now, happening right now. And so even as I pick up my

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tea, you know I enjoy my tea, it's right here I can hold it in my hand and I can

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feel that and I can see you. What are you having? Do you have coffee or tea?

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David Not the moment, but I'll survive. My former

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teacher's teacher had this quote where he said, "There are so many lives one can live

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before getting a chance to be human." He said, "Once you have achieved a human life, make

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good use of the time. It's a precious opportunity. If you fail to reach God in this life, then

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you have sold a diamond for the price of spinach." Which is not to make people feel bad, because

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I've said things like this when I was teaching and there were some older people or people

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with a disease that might kill them, you know, and they began to literally cry because they

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felt, "Oh my God, I've blown it.

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I won't make it."

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That kind of thing.

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But I think you probably would agree, see this life as one rather brief chapter in a

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very long book.

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And wherever you are, and anybody listening to this probably doesn't have much dust in

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their eyes, so they wouldn't be listening to it.

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You know, make hay while the sun shines.

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Do what you can.

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That's right. I agree. One of my earliest memories is I remember being a little girl. I was like

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four or five years old and I was out in the backyard playing with my brother and neighborhood

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kids. We just wore our underwear and we would play in the sprinkler and the hose and we

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had little pool that the sides folded down but you could fill it up and then it would

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stay up. And my mom even brought out a stepstool so that we could jump off the stepstool into

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the pool. And we were just little kids, you know, running around, running around in the

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yard and I just loved being outside and I was just like playing in the sprinkler and just

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all day we would just play outside.

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And of course, at a certain point, my mom comes out and she's got curlers in her hair and she's

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like, "This is it, you gotta come in."

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And I was like, "Nuh-uh, I don't wanna come in."

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And my brother went scampering in right away and she comes running after me and she circles

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me and circles me in the yard and the yard is so muddy.

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Oh by then it was just all mud and your mother slipped

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She slipped and she got up and she was mad and she came

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Beelined across from me and she grabbed me really hard by the arm

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And she held me really tight and she said in a really intense voice

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Just who do you think you are?

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And I stopped completely and looked at her and went that's a really good question

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That's great. And I fainted wow

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Yeah, I fainted. The question just overwhelmed my child mind.

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Like I knew that question.

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And I just fainted. And she scooped me up and she was so mad at me.

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Because all the mud.

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The next thing I knew I woke up in the tub and was getting washed up.

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And I was just like walking around and going, "What does that mean?

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What does that mean? Who am I?"

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Wow, that's so interesting.

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And I did have some memories as a little girl of previous life.

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And I did say to my mother a few times, "I don't think you're my real mom."

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And she did not like that at all.

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Pete: She didn't understand what you were saying, right?

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Kirsten: She did not understand.

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She did not like that.

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So, that question is a question for each of us to ask.

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What is this life about?

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It's a good curiosity.

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It's a wonderful curiosity.

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And just relaxing and opening up to the whole event of the moment can allow in so much knowing,

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much presence. It's really rich, these energies that are moving through us.

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Pete Yeah. You told another story where you and

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your brother were digging tunnels in the snow and you were burrowing under and sliding down

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and this and that, and then the snow collapsed and buried your brother and he could have easily

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have died. And you were like digging frantically and you're freezing cold, you had your gloves

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off because you could dig better and you finally got him out and he ran home. But then you stayed

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until late at night, sledding and looking at the stars and this and that, and then eventually

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lying on the sidewalk in front of your house.

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And I got the feeling that in all of that, you were having some kind of mystical experience.

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Yeah, I basically spent the whole day practicing in a natural way, just really feeling the

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snow, the crunch, listening to the sound of the snow as I walked on it with the crunch,

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seeing even the difference in temperature throughout the day and the sound would change on the

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snow with my footfall.

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And so my attention was really present, really tuned in all day long.

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And when I just flipped over and lied back on my sled later and the snow started falling

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on my face, it was like the whole universe opened.

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And I just was like every snowflake was like also a falling star.

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whole universe wasn't separate from me and everything that happened, like a slush from

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the street landing near me as a car went by, was also a passing galaxy.

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It was like beyond time and space and just really amazing.

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And I just kept sliding my way home and going, "Whoa!"

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(Laughter)

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Pete: How old were you then?

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at that point about nine.

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Randy: Nine.

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I've interviewed quite a few people who had some pretty amazing experiences when they were

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young like that.

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And then, you know, when they got into their teenage years, they eventually kind of shut

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down.

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But I think it's probably symptomatic of ripeness for spiritual awakening later on.

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I think a lot of kids are pretty open, but it's not like we're tabula rasas when we're

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born and we're just perfectly enlightened and, you know, then we get screwed up by the world.

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We come in at different levels and some people come in at a fairly high level and are open

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to having such experiences when they're young.

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Kim: Yeah, it's too bad that a lot of children who are very sensitive are sort of judged and

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shunned and pushed aside.

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It's difficult because I was really sensitive and pretty quiet as a kid.

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Ricky: You said something in your notes about how this book came about, Time for Awakening.

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It's incredible to you.

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How is it incredible?

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Well, I wrote the book in 2009, 2010.

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Right when I was starting BATGAP.

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Yeah, of course, we are always struggling to get by.

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I think a lot of the books you see in bookstores are written by people who have a lot more resources.

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So that's something to consider.

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I looked for help and support with it a little bit on and off over the years, but didn't

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have enough support for it.

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I had shown it to my teachers, Jack and Trudy, in 2010, and they said, "Yes!

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Keep going!

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Work on it!

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This is nice!

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I think people will benefit."

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But I just couldn't bring it forward until something happened in December 2022.

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I got COVID and I got really ill with it.

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I particularly was affected with my heart and I needed to go to the ER.

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The doctors were very concerned about me and they had plugged me into all this stuff to

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check on my heart.

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And one of my sons, Forrest, was with me.

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And the doctor came in and he said, "We're really concerned."

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I told Forrest, I said, "Well, if I die, there's this manuscript up in the attic, in the corner,

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on this dusty little corner shelf, and I would really like you to get it out and read it.

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I'm leaving that for you. And I really wrote it for my sons because it's so important to

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me as a mother to be a mother and to leave something behind like breadcrumbs for my sons.

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And so that was really, really important. And he said, Okay. So then I got better. I

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got better really quickly. It was just a minor problem that was resolved really quickly.

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Both of my sons read it, they looked at it and read it. And they brought it to me and

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And they said, "If this is your dying wish, this is good, and we're going to help you

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with this now."

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So I was like, "Wow, really?"

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And as it turned out, one of my sons is really talented with commas and grammar and all kinds

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of editing.

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And I had each one of them sitting next to me, one on one side, one on the other, and

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we spent months and months looking at it and discussing it.

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And actually, this was more important to me than the book.

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Oh, yeah.

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That's nice that you had that time with them, especially since you kind of wrote it for them,

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you know?

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Yes.

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And it was really healing because they were able to talk about things that I've shared

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in the book because it is a memoir.

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And they were able to really look back at things that were happening at that time.

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And then we would stop sometimes for a week and really discuss, you know, those memories

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and the things that they were going through in high school and the struggles that they

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were having.

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And then we were able to really apply some wisdom to looking at healing what they need

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to heal now.

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It was so wonderful.

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There's a story in the book where you're in some restaurant and there are a bunch of gay

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guys at the next table.

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And you say, "Hey, are you guys gay?"

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And they say, "Yeah!"

00:16:56.880 --> 00:16:59.640
And you say, "I think maybe one of my sons is gay."

00:16:59.640 --> 00:17:03.500
And you end up sitting down with them and they're kind of like you become their mom

00:17:03.500 --> 00:17:07.160
or something and they're hugging you and all that stuff.

00:17:07.160 --> 00:17:12.100
I don't know why that just came to mind just now, but it's like, I just, from talking to

00:17:12.100 --> 00:17:16.940
you now and having read the book, I just think, wow, I wish all mothers could be like this.

00:17:16.940 --> 00:17:20.040
Even though you're running off to retreats and things like that, which you needed to

00:17:20.040 --> 00:17:25.300
do for your spiritual pursuits, your love and open-mindedness and everything for your

00:17:25.300 --> 00:17:27.200
sons is really beautiful.

00:17:27.200 --> 00:17:28.200
Thank you.

00:17:28.200 --> 00:17:33.920
Being a parent is something that I took upon myself as a really sacred responsibility.

00:17:33.920 --> 00:17:34.920
And it is.

00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:35.920
It is.

00:17:35.920 --> 00:17:41.740
very heavy karma and we need to pay close attention to it. I think that's also a result of my

00:17:41.740 --> 00:17:43.140
own childhood though too.

00:17:43.140 --> 00:17:48.540
But I mean, the whole humanity could be turned around in one generation if all parents were

00:17:48.540 --> 00:17:53.620
enlightened, but of course that's a very improbable hypothesis. It doesn't work that way. But

00:17:53.620 --> 00:17:58.820
here's the flip side to that. I've known people who were ardent meditators and spiritual seekers

00:17:58.820 --> 00:18:02.620
who neglected their children because they were so absorbed in their practice. They would

00:18:02.620 --> 00:18:06.420
leave their kids alone for hours and the kids would get into all kinds of mischief and stuff.

00:18:06.420 --> 00:18:13.360
So, you kind of have to juggle things more artfully than that and integrate spiritual

00:18:13.360 --> 00:18:17.860
practice into your circumstances without neglecting either.

00:18:17.860 --> 00:18:20.820
Kindra Right. And that's why I really shared in my

00:18:20.820 --> 00:18:25.980
book about how parenting was a part of my life, you know, it was everything. My practice

00:18:25.980 --> 00:18:30.420
was more intense, of course, on the cushion. When you're sitting, you can be really still

00:18:30.420 --> 00:18:33.420
and totally inward focus.

00:18:33.420 --> 00:18:36.460
But when I was with them, I was with them.

00:18:36.460 --> 00:18:37.460
That's it.

00:18:37.460 --> 00:18:38.540
I was with them.

00:18:38.540 --> 00:18:41.860
And I was really listening and really paying close attention.

00:18:41.860 --> 00:18:44.120
And what is it that we need to talk about?

00:18:44.120 --> 00:18:45.820
What is it that we can do?

00:18:45.820 --> 00:18:48.660
How are you really experiencing life?

00:18:48.660 --> 00:18:50.580
This was really important.

00:18:50.580 --> 00:18:54.260
Being sons, also, they would come home from school when they were kids and they would

00:18:54.260 --> 00:18:58.300
be told things like, "Boys, don't cry."

00:18:58.300 --> 00:19:05.060
butts kicked on the playground or shoved and all kinds of violence happening. And I would

00:19:05.060 --> 00:19:10.300
just say that's ridiculous. This is not about you being a boy or a girl. This is about you

00:19:10.300 --> 00:19:15.620
being a human and having a heart. And it's okay to have these feelings. These feelings

00:19:15.620 --> 00:19:16.620
are really important.

00:19:16.620 --> 00:19:21.860
What do you feel about parenting as a spiritual practice? Because I know that some people,

00:19:21.860 --> 00:19:27.100
I don't know about parents, but I know of some guys who decide to become monks who think,

00:19:27.100 --> 00:19:30.860
"Oh, that would be just the worst thing I could do for my spiritual development."

00:19:30.860 --> 00:19:35.700
And I was actually living an intentionally monastic life for about 15 years, although

00:19:35.700 --> 00:19:40.420
it was a very active monastic life, of course, I was traveling around doing projects.

00:19:40.420 --> 00:19:43.660
But the attitude was, "Yeah, that's kind of a lesser dharma.

00:19:43.660 --> 00:19:45.340
If you do that, you're really selling out."

00:19:45.340 --> 00:19:48.220
And it took me a while to adjust to the idea that it wasn't.

00:19:48.220 --> 00:19:53.580
And even though we never had children, on the other hand, I feel like the challenges of

00:19:53.580 --> 00:19:59.100
married life, and I'm sure this is true of having children as well, were very evolutionary,

00:19:59.100 --> 00:20:03.540
not some kind of trap or distraction from the spiritual path.

00:20:03.540 --> 00:20:08.020
But I think I'm in much better shape now than I would have been had I been up in the

00:20:08.020 --> 00:20:10.140
Himalayas with my old buddies now.

00:20:10.140 --> 00:20:11.780
Kindra Right.

00:20:11.780 --> 00:20:13.620
Spiritual practice is whatever is here.

00:20:13.620 --> 00:20:14.620
Pete Yeah.

00:20:14.620 --> 00:20:15.980
Kindra Oh, it's whatever it's here.

00:20:15.980 --> 00:20:22.100
And the Buddha, you know, he went back to his son, and his son came into his community,

00:20:22.100 --> 00:20:25.900
And there's the stories about him and Rahula, his son.

00:20:25.900 --> 00:20:32.480
And he was a dad in the whole community with Rahula as he was teaching.

00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:36.940
And it's important, whatever we have, whatever we have to deal with, we need to deal with

00:20:36.940 --> 00:20:37.940
it.

00:20:37.940 --> 00:20:39.460
And that's the way I live.

00:20:39.460 --> 00:20:41.020
I had a house that was a mess.

00:20:41.020 --> 00:20:42.580
Okay, I need to fix it.

00:20:42.580 --> 00:20:43.940
I need to work on it.

00:20:43.940 --> 00:20:45.540
I have children that I love dearly.

00:20:45.540 --> 00:20:51.020
Well, then let's find ways to be healthy and supportive and functional.

00:20:51.020 --> 00:20:52.940
I like to put the fun in functional.

00:20:52.940 --> 00:20:53.940
Yeah, that's good.

00:20:53.940 --> 00:20:56.700
That's a lot of what I like to do.

00:20:56.700 --> 00:21:02.100
So you mentioned that you were an invisible child and homeless, but yet a little while

00:21:02.100 --> 00:21:06.020
ago you were talking about your mother and running around the swimming pool.

00:21:06.020 --> 00:21:09.100
In what respect were you invisible or homeless?

00:21:09.100 --> 00:21:17.780
Well, with my mother, she had some mental illness and she was really not balanced at all and

00:21:17.780 --> 00:21:26.340
wasn't able to really raise us as children. And my father divorced her when I was eight.

00:21:26.340 --> 00:21:32.740
And he really tried to seek custody to protect us from her violence and emotional abuse. But

00:21:32.740 --> 00:21:40.340
he wasn't able to get custody. And then he died when I was 12. And for most of my life,

00:21:40.340 --> 00:21:44.780
my mother would often remind me that I was unwanted.

00:21:44.780 --> 00:21:47.460
She hadn't intended to get pregnant in that sense?

00:21:47.460 --> 00:21:48.460
Right.

00:21:48.460 --> 00:21:53.380
And that she did not want me, that she had no interest in taking care of me.

00:21:53.380 --> 00:21:56.840
And she did neglect me severely.

00:21:56.840 --> 00:22:03.260
So there was a lot of invisibility, but also just in the family system of being so dysfunctional,

00:22:03.260 --> 00:22:06.500
I sort of became the fly on the wall.

00:22:06.500 --> 00:22:09.100
I just would sort of retreat.

00:22:09.100 --> 00:22:12.940
And my main focus was, "Let's just stay out of trouble.

00:22:12.940 --> 00:22:14.980
I don't want to get in trouble.

00:22:14.980 --> 00:22:19.100
I don't want to be part of this trouble, and I don't want to participate in it.

00:22:19.100 --> 00:22:23.260
One of my family members said to me recently, "Remember such and such and such and such happening?"

00:22:23.260 --> 00:22:24.260
And I said, "Yes."

00:22:24.260 --> 00:22:26.140
And he said, "Well, where were you?"

00:22:26.140 --> 00:22:27.940
And I was right there.

00:22:27.940 --> 00:22:29.140
So they didn't even notice you?

00:22:29.140 --> 00:22:30.900
They didn't notice me.

00:22:30.900 --> 00:22:35.980
So anyway, when my father died, there wasn't anyone to take care of me.

00:22:35.980 --> 00:22:39.460
So I became a ward, and I was homeless.

00:22:39.460 --> 00:22:41.660
I went out and I found support.

00:22:41.660 --> 00:22:46.820
There was a group of hippies that were living on the West Bank in Minneapolis, and it was

00:22:46.820 --> 00:22:53.140
the first year that they had started a home for kids who had basically been tossed out

00:22:53.140 --> 00:22:54.660
and didn't have any support.

00:22:54.660 --> 00:22:56.180
How old were you then?

00:22:56.180 --> 00:22:57.180
I was 12.

00:22:57.180 --> 00:22:58.180
Wow!

00:22:58.180 --> 00:22:59.180
That's young.

00:22:59.180 --> 00:23:00.180
I mean, that's illegal.

00:23:00.180 --> 00:23:02.060
You don't toss out a 12-year-old.

00:23:02.060 --> 00:23:03.060
A lot of kids are.

00:23:03.060 --> 00:23:07.900
In fact, those gay men that I spoke with in the restaurant, they said that they were mostly

00:23:07.900 --> 00:23:08.900
tossed out.

00:23:08.900 --> 00:23:11.420
They were tossed out of their homes.

00:23:11.420 --> 00:23:19.260
Probably by some very religious parents who are blind to the hypocrisy of what they were

00:23:19.260 --> 00:23:20.260
doing.

00:23:20.260 --> 00:23:25.220
I was out of the home a lot starting from about the age of 14 because of my father's

00:23:25.220 --> 00:23:30.740
alcoholism and my mother's hospitalization for mental illness and stuff like that, but

00:23:30.740 --> 00:23:32.460
12 is really young.

00:23:32.460 --> 00:23:33.540
How did you get along?

00:23:33.540 --> 00:23:34.540
What happened?

00:23:34.540 --> 00:23:39.980
Well, eventually they found a foster home, but sometimes I was homeless.

00:23:39.980 --> 00:23:45.360
I was out on the street and finding places to stay with other homeless people.

00:23:45.360 --> 00:23:49.040
And then when a home was found, I went into foster care.

00:23:49.040 --> 00:23:51.640
And I was in a series of foster homes.

00:23:51.640 --> 00:23:55.560
And then I was emancipated by the court when I was 17.

00:23:55.560 --> 00:23:59.800
Meaning you could just be on your own, didn't have to be anybody's ward anymore.

00:23:59.800 --> 00:24:00.800
Right.

00:24:00.800 --> 00:24:05.560
The judge just said that if you get picked up, they will bring you downtown because you're

00:24:05.560 --> 00:24:07.100
under age of 18.

00:24:07.100 --> 00:24:09.000
So just stay out of trouble.

00:24:09.000 --> 00:24:10.600
And I was like, "Okay."

00:24:10.600 --> 00:24:16.400
So I actually started college when I was 17, through the help of a man who was at the high

00:24:16.400 --> 00:24:19.320
school, alternative high school that I went to.

00:24:19.320 --> 00:24:23.040
Well, it's good that you came through that relatively unscathed.

00:24:23.040 --> 00:24:28.720
I mean, these days, kids end up in sex trafficking situations and things like that, and all kinds

00:24:28.720 --> 00:24:29.720
of horrible things.

00:24:29.720 --> 00:24:30.720
That's true.

00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:34.480
Even more so in other countries, sometimes, like India.

00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:38.400
In fact, people sell their children in India sometimes for that purpose.

00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:43.920
That's right. I have a good friend named Robin who's been on BatGap. Robin Charasia who has a

00:24:43.920 --> 00:24:48.880
whole organization that takes care of girls who were born in the red light district of Mumbai

00:24:48.880 --> 00:24:54.560
and she deals with so many difficult situations. It's amazing. She happens to be in the U.S. right

00:24:54.560 --> 00:25:00.560
now actually fundraising. What really helped me was I worked. I always worked like three jobs.

00:25:00.560 --> 00:25:06.720
Kept you busy? It kept me really busy and out of trouble but I did get into recovery. You weren't

00:25:06.720 --> 00:25:10.880
drinking or anything. It was recovery for people who've had a rough life kind of a program.

00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:14.400
Yeah, I never really was attracted to drinking that much.

00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:16.960
But you mentioned you were at Al-Anon or something, right?

00:25:16.960 --> 00:25:22.960
Yes, right. And I got into using the tools of recovery, which I talk about in my book.

00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:29.280
And the tools is what really helped me. I started to, every Friday night, light a candle and just

00:25:29.280 --> 00:25:35.040
sit down with my feelings. And I looked at the tools and the tools that I outlined in my book

00:25:35.040 --> 00:25:42.240
are really simple seven tools. Attend meetings, work the steps, connect with others, use the phone list,

00:25:42.240 --> 00:25:50.400
engage in meditation or prayer, read informative and wise literature, write or journal about your

00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:57.040
questions or concerns, get a sponsor and meet with that person, be generous and provide support to

00:25:57.040 --> 00:26:04.240
the whole group. And I just took up these tools like they were like, wow, okay, I love it. I was

00:26:04.240 --> 00:26:07.320
I was like, okay, these are the tools, I'm gonna use them.

00:26:07.320 --> 00:26:08.420
Let's do it.

00:26:08.420 --> 00:26:10.880
And I immediately asked for a sponsor.

00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:15.160
And my first sponsor mostly just said things like, why not?

00:26:15.160 --> 00:26:17.600
'Cause I just had so much oppression,

00:26:17.600 --> 00:26:20.360
internalized oppression against myself.

00:26:20.360 --> 00:26:22.920
And I had so much internalized shame

00:26:22.920 --> 00:26:25.980
and I didn't know how to really let myself be free again

00:26:25.980 --> 00:26:28.420
after all of those years of homelessness.

00:26:28.420 --> 00:26:31.640
And I kind of consider the shame and stuff like this

00:26:31.640 --> 00:26:38.240
sort of like, see this string, it sort of squeezes you down, and it prevents you from opening

00:26:38.240 --> 00:26:40.760
up and learning.

00:26:40.760 --> 00:26:45.060
And so I was kind of squeezed down and my sponsor could see that.

00:26:45.060 --> 00:26:49.480
And so I would ask her things like thinking about taking the day off work and just going

00:26:49.480 --> 00:26:50.480
for a bike ride.

00:26:50.480 --> 00:26:51.480
And she'd go, "Why not?"

00:26:51.480 --> 00:26:54.520
I didn't know, go for it.

00:26:54.520 --> 00:26:59.640
And when I was going out on dates, I mean, she was just like, "Take a quarter and a $20

00:26:59.640 --> 00:27:04.580
bill, stick it in your bra, and if you have any problem, you can call me with that quarter.

00:27:04.580 --> 00:27:07.800
And then you have the $20 bill for a cab if you need it.

00:27:07.800 --> 00:27:09.960
And I just had this support.

00:27:09.960 --> 00:27:14.360
It was just available and I would just go to meetings and feel this love.

00:27:14.360 --> 00:27:15.440
And it's here.

00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:16.820
It's like a revolution.

00:27:16.820 --> 00:27:20.780
It's an underground revolution throughout the world.

00:27:20.780 --> 00:27:24.880
In church basements, in places you wouldn't know.

00:27:24.880 --> 00:27:25.880
It's just amazing.

00:27:25.880 --> 00:27:28.120
I was just like, "This is amazing."

00:27:28.120 --> 00:27:33.280
I discovered something so awesome, and I just dug into it, and it really changed my whole

00:27:33.280 --> 00:27:34.280
life.

00:27:34.280 --> 00:27:35.280
It changed my whole life.

00:27:35.280 --> 00:27:41.040
Even when I met my husband, I'd say, "Can you pick me up on Wednesday at this corner?"

00:27:41.040 --> 00:27:42.480
And he'd say, "Why on that corner?"

00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:44.920
And I'd say, "Well, it's right after a meeting."

00:27:44.920 --> 00:27:47.800
And then he started coming into the meetings too.

00:27:47.800 --> 00:27:50.240
I had this foundation for raising my children.

00:27:50.240 --> 00:27:51.240
Yeah.

00:27:51.240 --> 00:27:55.440
And I had these principles that were just like coming alive in me.

00:27:55.440 --> 00:27:59.480
This wisdom is part of these principles and it just came alive in me.

00:27:59.480 --> 00:28:03.320
Are those kinds of tools the same in AA as they are in Al-Anon?

00:28:03.320 --> 00:28:05.960
I think those tools can be used even in any religion.

00:28:05.960 --> 00:28:10.000
Right, but I mean formally in AA, they're pretty much the same thing?

00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:11.560
Pretty much the same thing.

00:28:11.560 --> 00:28:14.560
I'm not a spokesperson for the program.

00:28:14.560 --> 00:28:15.800
I'm just sharing my experience.

00:28:15.800 --> 00:28:16.800
Yeah, of course.

00:28:16.800 --> 00:28:17.800
Yeah.

00:28:17.800 --> 00:28:18.800
And I've heard wonderful things about it.

00:28:18.800 --> 00:28:24.000
I have a really good friend who might be listening to this now who had problems with drugs and

00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:28.680
stuff and was in one of these programs and benefited tremendously. I wish my father had

00:28:28.680 --> 00:28:34.000
gotten into one of those things. It is a very spiritual program from what I understand,

00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:40.160
and I think that many of the problems in contemporary spirituality with ethics and people being

00:28:40.160 --> 00:28:45.680
treated respectfully and kindly and responsibly and all that kind of stuff would be addressed

00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:52.120
by an ethical structure like the tools you just described. So, I think in some spiritual

00:28:52.120 --> 00:28:54.920
circles, that sort of thing is sorely lacking.

00:28:54.920 --> 00:28:56.600
Patti: I suppose it is.

00:28:56.600 --> 00:29:00.720
Pete: I mean, think of some of the scandals in Buddhist circles, for instance, you know,

00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:04.640
which you're probably more familiar with than you might be in other circumstances, but if

00:29:04.640 --> 00:29:11.560
those spiritual teachers had been trying to abide by codes such as you just described,

00:29:11.560 --> 00:29:13.120
perhaps they wouldn't have behaved that way.

00:29:13.120 --> 00:29:17.920
Patti: That's right. That's right. And perhaps if there were some old timers around to watch

00:29:17.920 --> 00:29:19.080
them and go watch it.

00:29:19.080 --> 00:29:26.220
Yeah, if they had a sponsor or some feedback mechanism, I see you slipping here. Yeah, let's check in

00:29:26.220 --> 00:29:32.540
Yeah, that's one of the problems a lot of times spiritual teachers don't have a peer who can be a feedback mechanism

00:29:32.540 --> 00:29:36.980
And can call them on their stuff. So they just kind of go off the rails

00:29:36.980 --> 00:29:39.180
more and more

00:29:39.180 --> 00:29:46.280
Well, there's an old saying in the program that we're at different places on the path, but we're the same distance from the ditch

00:29:46.800 --> 00:29:53.200
Interesting. That's a good one. You probably heard of Pabba Sambhava because he was a Buddhist sage of some sort so that there's something

00:29:53.200 --> 00:29:57.680
He said once he said although my awareness is as vast as the sky

00:29:57.680 --> 00:30:01.340
My attention to karma is as fine as a grain of barley flour

00:30:01.340 --> 00:30:08.400
Yeah, in other words he's saying you can be pretty cosmic but you can still screw up if you're not careful that's right

00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:11.740
I think about that every time I stand at my table saw

00:30:11.740 --> 00:30:14.200
Yeah, right

00:30:14.520 --> 00:30:16.800
>> Right, be very careful.

00:30:16.800 --> 00:30:18.840
>> Good point.

00:30:18.840 --> 00:30:23.200
You know, some of the more time-honored traditions like Buddhism and certain aspects of Hinduism

00:30:23.200 --> 00:30:27.280
have had plenty of time to incorporate this kind of stuff.

00:30:27.280 --> 00:30:33.880
They're big on kindness, you have the whole Sharon Salzberg meditation kind of emphasis,

00:30:33.880 --> 00:30:40.160
whereas some of the more contemporary spiritual circles and Neo-Advaita and so on, they don't

00:30:40.160 --> 00:30:44.440
paying attention to this and if it's brought up, they might even dismiss it as Maya or

00:30:44.440 --> 00:30:50.680
as superfluous. It's just like a compromise with illusion if you're even taking this stuff

00:30:50.680 --> 00:30:51.680
seriously.

00:30:51.680 --> 00:30:56.880
Well, my training and my background in Buddhism is that the Buddha taught that there is self

00:30:56.880 --> 00:31:03.640
and not self, and that we need to be skillful in whatever realization that we've had. We

00:31:03.640 --> 00:31:09.520
also need to be skillful. We have this human form, and we need to be moral in our conduct.

00:31:09.520 --> 00:31:14.960
to be cleared. So, that's been my training. So, I've just really stayed with that because I feel

00:31:14.960 --> 00:31:19.680
really comfortable with that. And it's given me a lot of freedom and liberation and happiness and

00:31:19.680 --> 00:31:23.920
I can go to sleep at night and feel really good. Pete That's a good point. Ultimately,

00:31:23.920 --> 00:31:30.080
one is one's own barometer. If there's sensitivity, you should feel it if you're out of Dharma, you

00:31:30.080 --> 00:31:36.240
know, there should be some kind of discomfort as a consequence. And I think often that people manage

00:31:36.240 --> 00:31:42.000
just stuff that to repress it and thereby become less sensitive. And that can be a vicious

00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:46.320
circle where you become less and less and less sensitive. Humanity has done horrific

00:31:46.320 --> 00:31:55.280
things and you have to be quite blind to your own, to yourself in order to engage in such

00:31:55.280 --> 00:31:56.280
experiences.

00:31:56.280 --> 00:32:02.040
Right. Well, I was really fortunate to have an amazing teacher early on in my 20s, Ann

00:32:02.040 --> 00:32:03.040
Wilson-Shafe.

00:32:03.040 --> 00:32:04.920
Oh, yeah. Talk about her.

00:32:04.920 --> 00:32:09.480
didn't consider herself even in a hierarchical way.

00:32:09.480 --> 00:32:14.320
She was really honest about her process and what was going on with her.

00:32:14.320 --> 00:32:20.220
And she really admitted so much, and that really was a role model for me, to be honest

00:32:20.220 --> 00:32:23.440
about what is really going on, to be sensitive.

00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:28.200
That honesty is what we really need over and over again, to keep coming back into the moment

00:32:28.200 --> 00:32:35.000
and feeling into those moments of fear, those moments of tension, and what is really true.

00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:41.560
I practiced with this one way in which she defined addiction for quite a while.

00:32:41.560 --> 00:32:47.880
And for many years, like 24 years, I practiced in this way where I created an acronym for

00:32:47.880 --> 00:32:56.240
her definition, one of her primary definitions of addiction, which was what I call DIED.

00:32:56.240 --> 00:32:59.520
The first D was denial.

00:32:59.520 --> 00:33:02.400
So I was continually checking throughout the day

00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:05.560
as I was parenting, working on the house, doing my work.

00:33:05.560 --> 00:33:07.680
Is there anything I'm in denial about?

00:33:07.680 --> 00:33:09.000
Do I need to eat?

00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:10.440
Do I need to drink a water?

00:33:10.440 --> 00:33:11.440
Do I need to stop?

00:33:11.440 --> 00:33:13.560
Do I need to reprioritize?

00:33:13.560 --> 00:33:16.460
What is the most important thing right now?

00:33:16.460 --> 00:33:18.700
Is there anything I'm in denial about?

00:33:18.700 --> 00:33:21.700
Is there anything I don't want that I'm pushing away?

00:33:21.700 --> 00:33:22.800
That's denial.

00:33:22.800 --> 00:33:25.600
Is there anything I'm wanting that I just can't get?

00:33:25.600 --> 00:33:31.000
it's not going to happen. That's denial. So I was really practicing with denial over and

00:33:31.000 --> 00:33:35.260
over again. And then the next thing I looked into, which is connected to denial is the

00:33:35.260 --> 00:33:40.880
illusion of control. Was I not aware of all the many streams that are coming together at

00:33:40.880 --> 00:33:46.680
any point in time because it's huge? What can I do? And what can I not do? And that was

00:33:46.680 --> 00:33:49.480
part of the recovery program with the serenity prayer.

00:33:49.480 --> 00:33:51.280
Yeah, that famous quote.

00:33:51.280 --> 00:33:57.760
Yes, it's trying to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can,

00:33:57.760 --> 00:34:00.200
and the wisdom to know the difference.

00:34:00.200 --> 00:34:05.320
So this is the prayer of working with the illusion of control and really working with

00:34:05.320 --> 00:34:06.920
anything unskillful.

00:34:06.920 --> 00:34:10.200
And I had to stop often, pause, feel.

00:34:10.200 --> 00:34:11.760
This was a practice.

00:34:11.760 --> 00:34:17.800
And then for me, I also really looked at external referencing, which is the E, because the way

00:34:17.800 --> 00:34:20.200
The way I came in, the way I'm wired up,

00:34:20.200 --> 00:34:22.800
is that I often care about everybody else.

00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:24.480
What's going on with everybody else?

00:34:24.480 --> 00:34:28.000
And I have to be aware that I'm old, I'm tipped over,

00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:30.040
I leaned in too much on everybody else

00:34:30.040 --> 00:34:31.360
and I have to come back.

00:34:31.360 --> 00:34:33.000
What is going on here?

00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:35.520
And find that balance between me and the kids,

00:34:35.520 --> 00:34:38.240
me and the house, me and my work,

00:34:38.240 --> 00:34:42.760
and what is going on, and find out why have I tipped over.

00:34:42.760 --> 00:34:45.000
So external referencing,

00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:47.040
worrying about what other people think,

00:34:47.040 --> 00:34:52.360
spending more effort on the perceptions of others is also external referencing, and not

00:34:52.360 --> 00:34:54.840
just being at home in my own skin.

00:34:54.840 --> 00:34:58.000
And then the next one was dualistic thinking.

00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:02.480
Dualistic thinking is common, we think, in either/or, black and white thinking.

00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:06.160
It's just got to be this way or this way or your way or my way.

00:35:06.160 --> 00:35:10.400
Instead of really looking in the situation and feeling into the whole event of the moment

00:35:10.400 --> 00:35:16.200
and seeing a variety of options and a variety of ways of seeing it, and even a way of seeing

00:35:16.200 --> 00:35:21.120
it from other people's perspective as well as mine, and what would be the best, what

00:35:21.120 --> 00:35:23.660
would be the best outcome for both of us.

00:35:23.660 --> 00:35:27.220
And I might have to give something up, and they might have to give something up, and we

00:35:27.220 --> 00:35:29.800
can come to some negotiated solution.

00:35:29.800 --> 00:35:32.000
You should run for Congress.

00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:35.560
Oh boy, that'd be hard.

00:35:35.560 --> 00:35:38.440
But this is what I practiced with for 24 years.

00:35:38.440 --> 00:35:43.240
And so this was the groundwork for what happened in 2007.

00:35:43.240 --> 00:35:51.740
after 24 years of practicing with DIED, I started really looking at my practice and at all of

00:35:51.740 --> 00:35:56.420
my practice in the recovery and going, "There's something that's like right here."

00:35:56.420 --> 00:35:57.720
What do you mean by that?

00:35:57.720 --> 00:36:01.040
You're pushing your hand up to your nose for the audio listeners here.

00:36:01.040 --> 00:36:02.040
There's something right here.

00:36:02.040 --> 00:36:06.980
There's something right here and it's so close, but it feels separate.

00:36:06.980 --> 00:36:11.280
There was still this illusion of separation, this feeling of separation.

00:36:11.280 --> 00:36:16.480
And I kept having these mystical experiences because part of my recovery program was that

00:36:16.480 --> 00:36:22.820
I would leave for times and I would go and sit in hermitages and I would practice contemplative

00:36:22.820 --> 00:36:28.560
prayer and I would again have these huge openings and these big mystical experiences and I would

00:36:28.560 --> 00:36:33.520
cycle through that and then come back home and go like, "Now what?

00:36:33.520 --> 00:36:35.520
This is not satisfying.

00:36:35.520 --> 00:36:36.520
It's over.

00:36:36.520 --> 00:36:38.360
It's just another experience.

00:36:38.360 --> 00:36:39.360
That's not it."

00:36:39.360 --> 00:36:41.240
I didn't even know I was a seeker.

00:36:41.240 --> 00:36:44.360
I just felt like something isn't right.

00:36:44.360 --> 00:36:48.680
Well, when you had these mystical experiences, did you put them in a spiritual context?

00:36:48.680 --> 00:36:53.040
When you say you don't know you were a seeker, but did you interpret them in terms of having

00:36:53.040 --> 00:36:54.520
spiritual significance?

00:36:54.520 --> 00:37:01.720
Yeah, it was almost like when I was a kid on the sled out in the snow, like, wow, very

00:37:01.720 --> 00:37:02.720
present with it.

00:37:02.720 --> 00:37:08.680
A lot of energy flying in and through the body and appreciating it, but then it would just

00:37:08.680 --> 00:37:09.520
- Yeah.

00:37:09.520 --> 00:37:11.360
- It was gone, and I knew it was gone,

00:37:11.360 --> 00:37:13.520
and I needed to get back to work.

00:37:13.520 --> 00:37:15.600
I needed to get back to the business of living

00:37:15.600 --> 00:37:18.040
and let it go, and just move on

00:37:18.040 --> 00:37:20.120
with what's the next thing to do.

00:37:20.120 --> 00:37:21.840
Now I have to do the dishes.

00:37:21.840 --> 00:37:23.680
This is just the dishes now.

00:37:23.680 --> 00:37:25.080
But I knew that there was something

00:37:25.080 --> 00:37:27.920
that was calling me further, further.

00:37:27.920 --> 00:37:29.440
And then I had these experiences,

00:37:29.440 --> 00:37:32.440
like I sat for an LSAT,

00:37:32.440 --> 00:37:35.320
and I'd sit in the room and be completely quiet,

00:37:35.320 --> 00:37:37.960
and I would just be like, I love this silence.

00:37:37.960 --> 00:37:41.320
I love the silence of this room.

00:37:41.320 --> 00:37:46.120
And I'd hear this sound coming through and this voice would go, "This isn't it."

00:37:46.120 --> 00:37:48.560
And I was like, "What does that mean?

00:37:48.560 --> 00:37:51.020
I don't know, but this isn't it."

00:37:51.020 --> 00:37:54.720
And so I kept getting this pull to go further, further.

00:37:54.720 --> 00:37:55.720
What is it?

00:37:55.720 --> 00:37:57.040
Well, then what is it?

00:37:57.040 --> 00:37:58.040
What is it?

00:37:58.040 --> 00:38:03.680
And that's why I started the book in 2007 when I just went, "I need to check into a

00:38:03.680 --> 00:38:09.360
meditation center and I need to look around further for support because I just need to

00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:16.400
broaden my horizons. And that's when eventually that led to my meeting Adya, Adya Shantay,

00:38:16.400 --> 00:38:21.720
and talking with him. And I just really needed to know like straight, is there something

00:38:21.720 --> 00:38:27.840
that is further here? And what I heard him say in so many words was, yes, yes, there's

00:38:27.840 --> 00:38:33.200
something here. And I said to him, I said, "Well, one of the phrases that kept coming

00:38:33.200 --> 00:38:36.560
to me in this process was 'half measures avail us nothing.'"

00:38:36.560 --> 00:38:38.520
What's that again?

00:38:38.520 --> 00:38:41.160
Half measures avail us nothing.

00:38:41.160 --> 00:38:42.600
Avail us nothing, yes.

00:38:42.600 --> 00:38:49.560
And that's a statement from the big book. And I read that over and over and over again,

00:38:49.560 --> 00:38:55.960
half measures avail us nothing. And so I realized I needed to do this full-on, that I couldn't

00:38:55.960 --> 00:39:01.400
do it halfway. And I told Adi, I'm willing, I'm really, really willing. I'm willing to

00:39:01.400 --> 00:39:07.240
go to any lengths. And he said, Well, then you can't be stopped. Right? I realized that

00:39:07.240 --> 00:39:11.840
I was ready. I was ready to go further, much further. But you still managed to balance

00:39:11.840 --> 00:39:16.020
your family responsibilities and stuff. It's not like you just said, Bye, kids, maybe I'll

00:39:16.020 --> 00:39:22.880
see you in 20 years. No, no, it was just, again, a matter of really learning and having

00:39:22.880 --> 00:39:25.280
day at a time for years and years and years.

00:39:25.280 --> 00:39:27.880
One day at a time, what's right here?

00:39:27.880 --> 00:39:28.880
What are the priorities?

00:39:28.880 --> 00:39:30.840
What do I need to discern today?

00:39:30.840 --> 00:39:31.840
How are you?

00:39:31.840 --> 00:39:32.840
How is your health?

00:39:32.840 --> 00:39:35.640
What kind of food do we need in the house?

00:39:35.640 --> 00:39:36.880
The things do we need to do?

00:39:36.880 --> 00:39:37.880
Pete: Yeah.

00:39:37.880 --> 00:39:41.080
See, I think this is a really good example for people because some people might feel

00:39:41.080 --> 00:39:47.360
frustrated that they have to work in a job or deal with this or that responsibility and,

00:39:47.360 --> 00:39:51.000
you know, I just want to be in a cave on a mountain top, whatever, they just want to devote

00:39:51.000 --> 00:39:52.360
themselves to spirituality.

00:39:52.360 --> 00:39:54.400
Kim: Well, you can simplify.

00:39:54.400 --> 00:39:55.400
Pete: You can, yes.

00:39:55.400 --> 00:39:59.000
Kim: A lot of people's lives are pretty chaotic and they can simplify.

00:39:59.000 --> 00:40:00.000
Pete: Right.

00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:06.360
Kim: Like, I remember ending a lot of magazine subscriptions and I remember not going to

00:40:06.360 --> 00:40:13.360
some of my external volunteer activities as much and cutting back on many different things

00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:17.640
and really just like going, okay, every activity needs to be in devotion of this.

00:40:17.640 --> 00:40:18.640
Pete: Yeah.

00:40:18.640 --> 00:40:24.640
even if it's folding the laundry, even if it's nailing boards together, every activity needs

00:40:24.640 --> 00:40:31.040
to be a devotion. So, I could simplify things more and more so that I would have these periods

00:40:31.040 --> 00:40:35.920
where I could do focus sitting meditation morning, afternoon, and evening. But there

00:40:35.920 --> 00:40:40.080
were things that had to go in my life that had to become more simplified.

00:40:40.080 --> 00:40:43.680
Pete Sure. And you know, I think in our modern society,

00:40:44.240 --> 00:40:50.880
there are a lot of people, perhaps a majority, who are unaware that the deepest, most genuine,

00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:57.040
abiding fulfillment is to be found within. And so, therefore, they're seeking it externally

00:40:57.040 --> 00:41:01.520
and quite desperately. Around Christmas time every year, they always have on the news,

00:41:01.520 --> 00:41:06.400
these mob scenes in the malls, you know, where people are battling each other over the latest

00:41:06.400 --> 00:41:12.720
gadget and breaking the doors down and stampeding and doing all this crazy stuff. And you just think,

00:41:12.720 --> 00:41:18.120
"Wow, these people are just desperate for something that is not going to make them happy."

00:41:18.120 --> 00:41:23.200
But it's still a big phenomenon in our society, something our society needs to evolve out

00:41:23.200 --> 00:41:27.600
of I'd say, given the state of the world and the environment and the economy and all

00:41:27.600 --> 00:41:28.600
that stuff.

00:41:28.600 --> 00:41:30.600
Yeah, that's true.

00:41:30.600 --> 00:41:36.520
Yeah, there's a lot of benefit in just taking time with your family, just really getting

00:41:36.520 --> 00:41:40.760
to know them, sitting down, just keeping it really simple.

00:41:40.760 --> 00:41:46.280
Yeah, I listen to your book while walking in the woods about two hours every morning, which is what I do

00:41:46.280 --> 00:41:49.640
But I want to ask you about that you talk about being here now

00:41:49.640 --> 00:41:52.440
Focusing on what you're doing and so on and so forth

00:41:52.440 --> 00:41:55.720
Do you consider it to be in a violation of that to be?

00:41:55.720 --> 00:42:00.200
Listening to a podcast or something while you're walking in the woods like i'm dividing my mind

00:42:00.200 --> 00:42:04.920
Or would you do a thing like that or would you either just listen to the podcast or walk in the woods?

00:42:04.920 --> 00:42:10.520
Well notice how that's kind of dualistic and that there's actually many different levels of attention

00:42:10.520 --> 00:42:13.880
There's different levels of attention when I'm driving a car.

00:42:13.880 --> 00:42:19.320
I don't want the same level of attention that I'm giving when I'm meditating deeply and as

00:42:19.320 --> 00:42:21.880
focused sit as when I'm driving a car.

00:42:21.880 --> 00:42:23.960
Very true, you'd crash it.

00:42:23.960 --> 00:42:24.960
Right.

00:42:24.960 --> 00:42:26.640
So there's different levels of attention.

00:42:26.640 --> 00:42:32.400
And so the chosen level of attention was to walk in the woods and listen to the podcast.

00:42:32.400 --> 00:42:37.120
My wish is that it's pleasant, but that even if it's unpleasant, you're paying attention

00:42:37.120 --> 00:42:38.120
to that.

00:42:38.120 --> 00:42:39.120
Well, that's a good answer.

00:42:39.120 --> 00:42:43.720
Actually I heard from somebody I've interviewed, I think it was Rick Hansen, who's a neuroscientist,

00:42:43.720 --> 00:42:49.360
that they found through studies that it's really good for your brain to be doing something

00:42:49.360 --> 00:42:54.600
intellectually stimulating while getting aerobic exercise as you get older especially.

00:42:54.600 --> 00:42:58.400
Maybe it's because it brings more blood flow to the brain or something, I don't know.

00:42:58.400 --> 00:43:02.760
We all have different brains and we all have different ways of being and one of the things

00:43:02.760 --> 00:43:06.720
for me was I'm also really very visual.

00:43:06.720 --> 00:43:12.400
It's actually taken me quite a while to become more verbal and more articulate about talking

00:43:12.400 --> 00:43:16.560
about this and writing the book did help me with that.

00:43:16.560 --> 00:43:22.320
But for instance, after I was at Adia's retreat, I drew a picture and I just didn't even know

00:43:22.320 --> 00:43:24.080
how to talk about what had happened.

00:43:24.080 --> 00:43:32.280
I'd had this huge opening and drew this picture of all this energy just like coming out of

00:43:32.280 --> 00:43:36.560
me and I just didn't even know how to say anything about this to anybody because it just was

00:43:36.560 --> 00:43:42.360
huge. It was a really big opening because I was practicing really intensively at that

00:43:42.360 --> 00:43:48.560
retreat. It wasn't necessarily attributed to Adiya, it was attributed to the level of

00:43:48.560 --> 00:43:54.840
devotion and practice that I was giving moment by moment at the retreat. And so when we do

00:43:54.840 --> 00:43:58.920
the practice, there are a lot of openings and some people may not have words for it,

00:43:58.920 --> 00:44:05.200
may not have really an intellectual understanding of it. It could be very overwhelming. Here's

00:44:05.200 --> 00:44:07.080
another picture from a retreat.

00:44:07.080 --> 00:44:09.680
Lightning coming out of dark clouds.

00:44:09.680 --> 00:44:15.960
Right. And it was a really difficult state. I was just like beads of sweat pouring down

00:44:15.960 --> 00:44:22.280
and I was just staying with it and just really breathing through this really intense feeling.

00:44:22.280 --> 00:44:27.480
So I didn't know how to even put this into words when I was on retreat and going on to

00:44:27.480 --> 00:44:32.280
these some of these retreats, I would show the picture to a teacher and they go, "Well,

00:44:32.280 --> 00:44:36.560
you're supposed to describe your experience."

00:44:36.560 --> 00:44:38.320
I didn't know what to say.

00:44:38.320 --> 00:44:40.860
There was so much happening.

00:44:40.860 --> 00:44:43.120
Sometimes I think a picture is like a thousand words.

00:44:43.120 --> 00:44:45.280
Sure, especially if you're a visual person.

00:44:45.280 --> 00:44:48.440
I mean, yeah, that's your medium.

00:44:48.440 --> 00:44:52.280
One thing I was impressed with whenever I hear stories like this, I'm grateful that that

00:44:52.280 --> 00:44:59.040
wasn't the nature of my path, is that how you could sit there and experience a lot of physical

00:44:59.040 --> 00:45:05.240
pain trying to sit still for hours on end and just soldier on.

00:45:05.240 --> 00:45:08.960
The way I was taught, we're supposed to be comfortable, first of all, because if you're

00:45:08.960 --> 00:45:12.400
in a lot of pain, it distracts you from what you're doing there.

00:45:12.400 --> 00:45:15.840
And actually, I heard a story, I think it was from Jeff Carrera, whom I interviewed.

00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:19.680
He used to be with Andrew Cohen, and they would do these long, long things where they'd be

00:45:19.680 --> 00:45:23.760
meditating from four in the morning till ten at night with very few breaks and stuff and

00:45:23.760 --> 00:45:29.040
you know they'd be slapping each other to try to stay awake. I actually heard a story of someone

00:45:29.040 --> 00:45:33.920
getting a stroke because they had cut off the circulation in their legs so badly. In fact,

00:45:33.920 --> 00:45:37.520
you told the story of a lady breaking her ankle because her foot went to sleep.

00:45:37.520 --> 00:45:38.560
She tore a tendon.

00:45:38.560 --> 00:45:43.680
Tore a tendon. And so I just kind of like, it's one thing to be gung-ho on the spiritual path,

00:45:43.680 --> 00:45:48.480
it's another thing to actually damage the vehicle because you push it too hard.

00:45:48.480 --> 00:45:52.480
Right, and I did actually do that. I had a ganglion cyst on my wrist

00:45:52.480 --> 00:45:57.680
I'm holding a mudra and too tight of a mudra. This is a mudra

00:45:57.680 --> 00:46:03.760
Yeah, right and the circulation coming down my arm got stuck in my wrist from the way I was leaning

00:46:03.760 --> 00:46:09.440
And I had to have that removed so I felt like that was a casualty of really learning

00:46:09.440 --> 00:46:15.280
That I needed to be more flexible and find my own rhythm and pay attention more

00:46:15.280 --> 00:46:17.440
to my own rhythm

00:46:17.440 --> 00:46:21.740
and to get up and move if I needed, to adjust my posture if needed,

00:46:21.740 --> 00:46:26.900
and that it's a real fine balance between not too tight and not too loose.

00:46:26.900 --> 00:46:30.200
It's like a real fine balance.

00:46:30.200 --> 00:46:34.880
That taught me. I had to really, really tune into that more and more.

00:46:34.880 --> 00:46:38.400
So, yeah, these casualties can happen as we learn.

00:46:38.400 --> 00:46:42.640
I was like one of those ones that you learn from a lot of mistakes.

00:46:42.640 --> 00:46:45.580
I went through a phase where I was fasting a lot

00:46:45.580 --> 00:46:50.860
got down to under 120 pounds or something like that just because of the fanatical mindset

00:46:50.860 --> 00:46:51.860
I was in.

00:46:51.860 --> 00:46:54.820
Oh my goodness, that makes me want to make you a sandwich right now.

00:46:54.820 --> 00:46:56.220
Oh yeah, send it down.

00:46:56.220 --> 00:46:58.300
Well, that was like in the 70s.

00:46:58.300 --> 00:47:00.180
I'm a lot heavier than that now.

00:47:00.180 --> 00:47:02.700
But as Jesus said, the body is the temple of the soul.

00:47:02.700 --> 00:47:03.700
It is.

00:47:03.700 --> 00:47:05.140
Now, all I do is eat, Irene says.

00:47:05.140 --> 00:47:09.740
In fact, I just polished off a big piece of cheesecake that my sister brought me.

00:47:09.740 --> 00:47:14.820
I guess we won't dwell on this point too long, but just in passing, like you said, actually

00:47:14.820 --> 00:47:19.620
the Buddha talked about the middle way, right, in terms of balance, and in the Bhagavad Gita,

00:47:19.620 --> 00:47:24.180
says this yoga is not for him who eats too much or too little, who sleeps too much or too little.

00:47:24.180 --> 00:47:27.140
So moderation is advocated by both of those traditions.

00:47:27.140 --> 00:47:27.700
- Yep.

00:47:27.700 --> 00:47:31.060
- Doesn't mention cheesecake in the Gita. I don't know, what does Buddha say about that?

00:47:31.060 --> 00:47:36.580
- Cheesecake, go ahead, enjoy. The Buddha talks a lot about appreciation of life.

00:47:36.580 --> 00:47:37.220
- Yeah.

00:47:37.220 --> 00:47:42.900
- Mudita is about appreciation, and we're to appreciate life, enjoy life. Meditation

00:47:42.900 --> 00:47:48.620
doesn't need to be torture. Meditation is actually designed to be pleasant so that we can liberate

00:47:48.620 --> 00:47:53.500
and feel free and we can feel more at ease in the world and a part of the world and not

00:47:53.500 --> 00:48:00.060
separate and that we are connected and we have this amazing divine energy flowing through

00:48:00.060 --> 00:48:01.060
us.

00:48:01.060 --> 00:48:02.060
Pete: Yeah.

00:48:02.060 --> 00:48:05.700
Kirsten: And that we have these capacities that are now freed up that we can actually

00:48:05.700 --> 00:48:12.280
help the world in a way, much more. So, the Buddha definitely talked about that. And what

00:48:12.280 --> 00:48:17.420
What really also freed me up after I met Adia was that I had discovered something called

00:48:17.420 --> 00:48:19.360
the progress of insight.

00:48:19.360 --> 00:48:24.600
And when I learned about that, I realized that the cycles that I'd been going through were

00:48:24.600 --> 00:48:26.520
actually pretty normal.

00:48:26.520 --> 00:48:29.240
And that made me go, "Oh, thank you.

00:48:29.240 --> 00:48:31.040
You know, I'm okay."

00:48:31.040 --> 00:48:36.640
I have been cycling through these like contracted states and then these more expanded states,

00:48:36.640 --> 00:48:41.480
and I think I had some ideas about just, it should just be always good or expansive or

00:48:41.480 --> 00:48:46.880
better or something. And it was normal to go through those states. And what I needed to

00:48:46.880 --> 00:48:54.200
do was to just really become more skillful in self care and gentleness and kindness and

00:48:54.200 --> 00:49:00.040
really patience and finding that middle way. Yeah, those difficult states. And after a

00:49:00.040 --> 00:49:04.800
big opening, there's generally going to be a more difficult state.

00:49:04.800 --> 00:49:11.860
Yeah, because a big opening is conducive to the nervous system being able to free itself

00:49:11.860 --> 00:49:16.400
from impurities or some scars or, you know, deep impressions.

00:49:16.400 --> 00:49:22.060
And then when those things get released, you're going to experience some roughness probably.

00:49:22.060 --> 00:49:25.320
It's like when you're vacuuming the house, there's a lot of noise and commotion, but

00:49:25.320 --> 00:49:26.960
you're getting the dust up.

00:49:26.960 --> 00:49:27.960
That's right.

00:49:27.960 --> 00:49:31.960
And the mind seems like it can only handle so much.

00:49:31.960 --> 00:49:36.340
just kind of goes like this and it wants to rest. And sometimes you want to just be a couch

00:49:36.340 --> 00:49:42.440
potato for a while. There would be times when I'd have a big opening and then I'd go into

00:49:42.440 --> 00:49:48.140
my wood shop and I'd put my hand down on the iron top of my table saw and I'd feel my hand

00:49:48.140 --> 00:49:53.860
shaking and I would just go, "Not a good day to cut wood." I think today's a good day for

00:49:53.860 --> 00:49:59.500
organizing the shop and for straightening out all of my wood pieces and for making a

00:49:59.500 --> 00:50:03.500
plan and for sweeping and vacuuming and getting out my shop back.

00:50:03.500 --> 00:50:06.340
And it's not a good day for cutting wood.

00:50:06.340 --> 00:50:11.340
So that was how I was always discerning, you know, the way through.

00:50:11.340 --> 00:50:15.700
When you said you're balancing, I always feel like some people think that you're balancing,

00:50:15.700 --> 00:50:18.580
like you have some kind of overview plan or something.

00:50:18.580 --> 00:50:22.500
I was just really with each day, like what does each day need?

00:50:22.500 --> 00:50:23.500
What is right now?

00:50:23.500 --> 00:50:27.260
What is needed right now and for the rest of the day, just a little bit further into the

00:50:27.260 --> 00:50:28.380
future?

00:50:28.380 --> 00:50:29.860
What do we need for supper?

00:50:29.860 --> 00:50:31.620
What do we need next?

00:50:31.620 --> 00:50:35.820
And that is the way to balance it that I knew.

00:50:35.820 --> 00:50:36.820
So we're just...

00:50:36.820 --> 00:50:40.260
Well, I think what you said about when you have a big opening, you might need to rest

00:50:40.260 --> 00:50:44.940
is important because sometimes what you might really need is to sleep a lot or to have a

00:50:44.940 --> 00:50:50.660
massage or, you know, do something really soothing, go swimming, something that's rejuvenative

00:50:50.660 --> 00:50:51.660
and restful.

00:50:51.660 --> 00:50:57.260
And if you keep pushing when your body actually needs rest, then you're... it's counterproductive.

00:50:57.260 --> 00:51:01.260
Exactly, exactly. Great time to take a bath.

00:51:01.260 --> 00:51:02.260
Yeah, I kind of think.

00:51:02.260 --> 00:51:03.260
Get some oils in the bath.

00:51:03.260 --> 00:51:08.260
And also what you said about meditation should be enjoyable, I hardly agree with that.

00:51:08.260 --> 00:51:12.260
If it isn't, if it's torture to sit and meditate, hardly anybody would stay with it.

00:51:12.260 --> 00:51:16.260
And they probably shouldn't, because if it's torture, you're doing something wrong.

00:51:16.260 --> 00:51:19.260
You should probably give it up or find something different.

00:51:19.260 --> 00:51:21.260
Probably too tight, gotten too tight.

00:51:21.260 --> 00:51:22.260
Yeah.

00:51:22.260 --> 00:51:25.560
focus is too narrow, and to open it up, relax,

00:51:25.560 --> 00:51:30.360
sit back in and down, and breathe in a way that's nourishing.

00:51:30.360 --> 00:51:32.440
I mean, you can breathe in ways that's nourishing

00:51:32.440 --> 00:51:34.280
and opening so much of what people are doing

00:51:34.280 --> 00:51:36.300
is they're pinching off the breath

00:51:36.300 --> 00:51:38.000
in different parts of the body,

00:51:38.000 --> 00:51:39.620
and you can open those areas,

00:51:39.620 --> 00:51:42.700
you can offer breath energy to those areas

00:51:42.700 --> 00:51:44.560
to open them up and relax,

00:51:44.560 --> 00:51:47.880
and let the whole body be filled with breath energy.

00:51:47.880 --> 00:51:50.600
And it's really opening and lovely,

00:51:50.600 --> 00:51:52.240
And it can happen this way.

00:51:52.240 --> 00:51:57.440
It's really the way forward, I think, is to just relax and tune in.

00:51:57.440 --> 00:51:59.800
Yeah, you guide people in this stuff, right?

00:51:59.800 --> 00:52:02.600
You have one-on-ones with people and so on.

00:52:02.600 --> 00:52:03.600
Yeah.

00:52:03.600 --> 00:52:07.120
After this interview, you might want to set up a Zoom thing, if you haven't done it already,

00:52:07.120 --> 00:52:10.720
where you can meet with whole groups on a regular basis because there might be a lot

00:52:10.720 --> 00:52:11.720
of inquiries.

00:52:11.720 --> 00:52:18.080
I have a wise circle that I'm developing with practitioners to come together and really focus

00:52:18.080 --> 00:52:23.120
on this middle way of practice where it can be gentle and refreshing and fulfilling.

00:52:23.120 --> 00:52:24.120
Yeah.

00:52:24.120 --> 00:52:25.120
And deepening.

00:52:25.120 --> 00:52:30.000
It gets deeper and deeper, but you do have to be willing to face into the difficult states

00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:33.000
because we do have to become friends with fear.

00:52:33.000 --> 00:52:37.600
More and more, we have to become friends with fear and that takes more humility and more

00:52:37.600 --> 00:52:40.840
openness to the broad open path.

00:52:40.840 --> 00:52:44.480
In my own case, I've been through a difficult childhood and I ended up dropping out of high

00:52:44.480 --> 00:52:48.880
school and getting into drugs and getting arrested a couple times and when I finally learned

00:52:48.880 --> 00:52:54.240
to meditate, it was like, "Oh my God, this is so refreshing," and I stuck with it and

00:52:54.240 --> 00:52:57.560
have actually never missed one since 1968.

00:52:57.560 --> 00:52:59.520
I just felt like, "Okay, this is my lifeline.

00:52:59.520 --> 00:53:04.120
I'm going to stick with this," and I was able to, even though I was a very flaky guy who

00:53:04.120 --> 00:53:08.160
wasn't able to be consistent about anything, but I was able to stick with it because it

00:53:08.160 --> 00:53:13.520
was so enjoyable and I began to notice so much more motivation.

00:53:13.520 --> 00:53:17.200
I got back into school and got a job and this and that.

00:53:17.200 --> 00:53:21.320
And I've gone through all kinds of crazy phases over the years as one does as you go through

00:53:21.320 --> 00:53:22.760
all the changes of life.

00:53:22.760 --> 00:53:28.000
You know, I can look back at certain periods where I was a total nutcase, but if you just

00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:33.000
hang in there and stay on the path, you work through that stuff and, you know, it gets

00:53:33.000 --> 00:53:34.240
better and better.

00:53:34.240 --> 00:53:38.000
I can, you know, I'm happier now at the age of 74 than I've ever been.

00:53:38.000 --> 00:53:39.200
Jill: Yay!

00:53:39.200 --> 00:53:40.600
Hey, wonderful.

00:53:40.600 --> 00:53:42.240
We can celebrate this human life.

00:53:42.240 --> 00:53:43.240
It's so precious.

00:53:43.240 --> 00:53:44.240
Yeah, send me a sandwich.

00:53:44.240 --> 00:53:45.240
Wonderful.

00:53:45.240 --> 00:53:46.240
Yeah, there you go.

00:53:46.240 --> 00:53:47.240
Definitely.

00:53:47.240 --> 00:53:51.920
I feel like we're always, you know, making our own banana cream pie.

00:53:51.920 --> 00:53:55.760
As we meditate, we also have to be aware that we're each a little bit different, and we're

00:53:55.760 --> 00:53:57.720
in different states of being.

00:53:57.720 --> 00:54:01.760
And so I would make a banana cream pie that's gluten free.

00:54:01.760 --> 00:54:06.600
So whenever I would practice, I would have to tune into what is the state that's here,

00:54:06.600 --> 00:54:10.160
and how can I breathe in a way that's supportive of this state?

00:54:10.160 --> 00:54:14.340
Or maybe I need to do walking meditation, maybe walking through the woods, listening to a

00:54:14.340 --> 00:54:19.040
podcast or doing something else, maybe taking a bath.

00:54:19.040 --> 00:54:23.440
My banana cream pie is gluten-free and sometimes crustless.

00:54:23.440 --> 00:54:28.880
And sometimes it's as simple as a slice of banana with some ready whip.

00:54:28.880 --> 00:54:29.880
And that's it.

00:54:29.880 --> 00:54:30.880
I'm done.

00:54:30.880 --> 00:54:31.880
I'm done.

00:54:31.880 --> 00:54:33.640
I just got one little bite and it's perfect.

00:54:33.640 --> 00:54:37.000
And so we're always kind of making our own pie each day.

00:54:37.000 --> 00:54:38.000
What is our pie?

00:54:38.000 --> 00:54:39.600
What fits for you?

00:54:39.600 --> 00:54:43.760
What is your particular state and what is the context of your life?

00:54:43.760 --> 00:54:47.040
There might be some other priorities that need to be assessed.

00:54:47.040 --> 00:54:51.760
And then I think it's really important to find a safe home and to ground yourself at

00:54:51.760 --> 00:54:56.160
home and have a place where you feel really at home and you feel safe.

00:54:56.160 --> 00:54:59.280
Give me a literal home, a physical home.

00:54:59.280 --> 00:55:00.840
Yeah, sure.

00:55:00.840 --> 00:55:01.840
Yeah.

00:55:01.840 --> 00:55:07.360
And wherever that is, just really ground yourself there and feel that this is your safe place.

00:55:07.360 --> 00:55:10.400
And from that, then you can build your practice more and more.

00:55:10.400 --> 00:55:11.800
That's what it was for me.

00:55:11.800 --> 00:55:14.440
It was really important to me to build my own home.

00:55:14.440 --> 00:55:16.000
Literally, you did.

00:55:16.000 --> 00:55:17.480
Here's my tape measure.

00:55:17.480 --> 00:55:19.820
Yeah, you're a carpenter actually.

00:55:19.820 --> 00:55:20.820
You and Jesus, yeah.

00:55:20.820 --> 00:55:21.820
Right.

00:55:21.820 --> 00:55:26.640
So I just would pick this up every day, and this was my grounding, my tape measure.

00:55:26.640 --> 00:55:29.840
This is a fairly new one, not as beat up as my old one.

00:55:29.840 --> 00:55:35.920
Our house is a really old house, and we ended up tearing off the back of the house and really

00:55:35.920 --> 00:55:41.320
having to rebuild the whole thing from the ground up. I had to learn all kinds of stuff

00:55:41.320 --> 00:55:47.560
about first getting the structure, getting the foundation, putting up the studs, doing

00:55:47.560 --> 00:55:52.760
everything, you know, the drywall on and the framing, everything had to be just right.

00:55:52.760 --> 00:55:57.440
And I was always checking. I have my level here, but I always checking to see is it level

00:55:57.440 --> 00:56:02.880
or plumb. I remember I worked with one guy who really helped me, he was really great.

00:56:02.880 --> 00:56:08.600
And he and I put up a steel column in the basement because what had happened was the back of

00:56:08.600 --> 00:56:14.200
the house collapsed at one point and I had to run to Home Depot at the store and run in

00:56:14.200 --> 00:56:16.160
and get a jack.

00:56:16.160 --> 00:56:20.160
And so I had to get that jack and get home, put that jack up.

00:56:20.160 --> 00:56:23.680
And then we had to put in a steel support in the middle of the house to hold up the main

00:56:23.680 --> 00:56:25.880
beam coming across.

00:56:25.880 --> 00:56:29.360
And then we had to get a portable welder out here to work with that.

00:56:29.360 --> 00:56:31.000
And it was like 30 below zero.

00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:36.240
It's really cold winter and just do the next thing but I remember he I checked

00:56:36.240 --> 00:56:43.240
It wasn't plum when he helped me with this and I said, it's not plum. He said, oh, it's fine. It'll be fine

00:56:43.240 --> 00:56:45.760
actually those words well means like

00:56:45.760 --> 00:56:53.880
Perpendicular or perfectly straight perfectly straight. Okay, perfectly straight, but a lot of people I worked with would say it'll be fine

00:56:53.880 --> 00:56:56.080
Right, they're sloppy. It's not fine

00:56:56.320 --> 00:57:00.840
So I would say no and then he'd say it'll be fine

00:57:00.840 --> 00:57:01.600
I'd say well

00:57:01.600 --> 00:57:07.760
I'm going to think about you every time I walk by that and the next thing I know he came back and fixed it

00:57:07.760 --> 00:57:14.480
So we got along great. So I did have some help with it, but a lot of the work I did myself

00:57:14.480 --> 00:57:22.600
Yeah, and this one I'm for years and years years and years while you're raising sons and creating websites and going to

00:57:22.600 --> 00:57:25.120
spiritual retreats

00:57:25.200 --> 00:57:28.620
Must have figured out the by location city or something

00:57:28.620 --> 00:57:37.320
Yeah, but having a home is really really important and all those poor people in Gaza right now who are crowded into Rafa

00:57:37.320 --> 00:57:41.860
Living in tents and waiting for the next invasion and so on

00:57:41.860 --> 00:57:48.080
It's insane and the trauma of little children at that age going through that kind of thing

00:57:48.080 --> 00:57:53.200
I know it breaks which is not to say it wasn't traumatic for the Israelis when Hamas invaded

00:57:53.200 --> 00:57:57.360
I'm not saying that but anyone anywhere the Ukraine for instance

00:57:57.360 --> 00:58:05.360
I mean, it's just so sad when people are subjected to all this stuff. I know it's like there's this complete denial about the importance

00:58:05.360 --> 00:58:11.360
Of this human life. Yeah, and it just creates trauma that I think lasts a lifetime for many people

00:58:11.360 --> 00:58:18.000
Yeah, I'm really grateful for the people here speaking out for them. Mm-hmm. I'm really really grateful

00:58:18.040 --> 00:58:24.300
It's so important. You know, we do need to speak out. We need to do what we can with this human life. Yeah

00:58:24.300 --> 00:58:31.600
Let's keep moving along because you did have and you say you awakened in 2008 and we're proceeding a little bit

00:58:31.600 --> 00:58:34.120
Chronologically here and we haven't gotten to that yet

00:58:34.120 --> 00:58:39.360
But I want to be sure to get to it and also your book you finished it 15 years ago or something

00:58:39.360 --> 00:58:44.000
So I want to find out what's been going on since then. So let's budget our time and make sure we cover all that

00:58:44.460 --> 00:58:45.460
Okay.

00:58:45.460 --> 00:58:50.340
You've done a bunch of camping trips and spiritual retreats and you went to Malaysia for three

00:58:50.340 --> 00:58:52.940
months and all kinds of stuff.

00:58:52.940 --> 00:58:53.940
Right.

00:58:53.940 --> 00:59:00.460
And then I had discovered the progress of insight and I went, okay, all right.

00:59:00.460 --> 00:59:03.600
And I saw that I had been cycling just like that.

00:59:03.600 --> 00:59:07.020
I had been going through these same states over and over again.

00:59:07.020 --> 00:59:11.680
And I'd been getting into this wonderful, beautiful state of equanimity, which was really

00:59:11.680 --> 00:59:13.500
high functioning for me.

00:59:13.500 --> 00:59:17.460
And so often when I would get into the state of equanimity, I would be like, "Well, come

00:59:17.460 --> 00:59:19.900
on, kids, let's go for a bike ride.

00:59:19.900 --> 00:59:21.560
Let's build another wall.

00:59:21.560 --> 00:59:23.580
Let's do all this cool stuff."

00:59:23.580 --> 00:59:28.220
And then after reading that, I realized that was the point I needed to stay still.

00:59:28.220 --> 00:59:29.980
I needed to be really still.

00:59:29.980 --> 00:59:30.980
Pete: Because?

00:59:30.980 --> 00:59:37.340
Kirsten: Because that was where the whole mind has such an open and vast perspective that

00:59:37.340 --> 00:59:42.140
this was almost like a moment of potential for something deeper.

00:59:42.140 --> 00:59:45.140
So stay still means don't take a bike ride, don't build a wall.

00:59:45.140 --> 00:59:47.540
In other words, don't sort of try to busy yourself.

00:59:47.540 --> 00:59:48.540
Right.

00:59:48.540 --> 00:59:49.540
Okay.

00:59:49.540 --> 00:59:50.700
Just sit still.

00:59:50.700 --> 00:59:53.620
And so then I realized I needed to have continuous practice.

00:59:53.620 --> 00:59:56.660
I needed really focused practice on retreat.

00:59:56.660 --> 01:00:02.440
And so that's when I decided to go to Malaysia and check into an intensive meditation center.

01:00:02.440 --> 01:00:03.520
Pretty intensive.

01:00:03.520 --> 01:00:04.520
It sounded intensive.

01:00:04.520 --> 01:00:06.260
I read all about it in the book.

01:00:06.260 --> 01:00:12.980
all kinds of stuff going on there and physical difficulties with mosquitoes and mud and leaky

01:00:12.980 --> 01:00:21.380
things and spicy things and bats and lizards and snakes creepy things monkeys over there yeah right

01:00:21.380 --> 01:00:27.460
but it sounded like it went well for you for the most part you had a big opening there um the

01:00:27.460 --> 01:00:33.700
teacher there liked you and yeah he almost became kind of peers at a certain point it seemed he sat

01:00:33.700 --> 01:00:38.900
down on the floor with you rather than sitting up on his chair and you know there's a camaraderie.

01:00:38.900 --> 01:00:44.900
Yeah there was. I think it takes a great deal of maturity to really see your teacher

01:00:44.900 --> 01:00:50.820
as a human being and to see your teacher and appreciate your teacher as an awakened human

01:00:50.820 --> 01:00:57.460
being here and now and that there is no hierarchy ultimately. Right. That we are just here. So in

01:00:57.460 --> 01:01:01.860
other words if someone were less spiritually mature they might idolize their teacher or

01:01:01.860 --> 01:01:08.180
consider themselves to be just a fallen creature by comparison with that lofty soul that's sitting in

01:01:08.180 --> 01:01:12.900
front of them and that kind of thing. Right, I think that's really disempowering. It is,

01:01:12.900 --> 01:01:17.860
and it can be problematic too because you can let the teacher get away with all kinds of shenanigans

01:01:17.860 --> 01:01:24.180
if you do that. It's really disempowering and it's insulting to the practice. And yet one can be

01:01:24.180 --> 01:01:29.620
respectful to one's teacher. Of course. You know, it's not like, "Hey man, let's go shoot some pool."

01:01:29.620 --> 01:01:32.580
There's an appreciation and even a reverence and a devotion.

01:01:32.580 --> 01:01:37.060
- Yes, that's why it's beyond dualistic thinking.

01:01:37.060 --> 01:01:39.060
All of these parts are together.

01:01:39.060 --> 01:01:42.260
All of this multi way of viewing is together.

01:01:42.260 --> 01:01:45.140
And there's a deep, deep respect for my teacher.

01:01:45.140 --> 01:01:46.740
He lives in my heart.

01:01:46.740 --> 01:01:48.260
He lives in my heart always.

01:01:48.260 --> 01:01:50.740
- Let's get subjective for a while,

01:01:50.740 --> 01:01:53.460
because we've been talking about all these objective things

01:01:53.460 --> 01:01:57.700
like house building and traveling and kids and whatnot.

01:01:58.580 --> 01:02:05.620
I know it's difficult because these subjective states are sometimes beyond words, but try to

01:02:05.620 --> 01:02:13.460
chart out for us the stages of your subjective growth, your inner experience, how you view the

01:02:13.460 --> 01:02:19.220
world, how you view yourself as your consciousness has shifted, if we want to use those words.

01:02:19.220 --> 01:02:21.220
Well, everything is just happening.

01:02:21.220 --> 01:02:23.300
Well, everyone can say that, right? Everything's happening.

01:02:23.300 --> 01:02:30.740
It is just happening. So there isn't any separation. It's almost indescribable. And there's a deep

01:02:30.740 --> 01:02:37.780
intimacy with what is, with what is. Even right now, it's just feel my seat. You know, I feel

01:02:37.780 --> 01:02:45.540
appreciation, I feel the breath in the body, a connection with everything that is. And it's

01:02:45.540 --> 01:02:50.260
already here. It's a gift. It's already arising and passing. So when you say there isn't any

01:02:50.260 --> 01:02:55.700
separation, how would you compare that experience with what you might have experienced 30 or

01:02:55.700 --> 01:03:01.100
40 years ago when you looked at a tree or person or something? What's the difference?

01:03:01.100 --> 01:03:07.640
It was like that's over there, but it's not over there. It's also here. So there's no

01:03:07.640 --> 01:03:14.940
over there, there. It's also here. And it's so rich and deep. And it's also flowing. There's

01:03:14.940 --> 01:03:21.660
There's a flowing, a vital aliveness within us, you know, and there's also a deep, deep

01:03:21.660 --> 01:03:24.060
connection with our divinity.

01:03:24.060 --> 01:03:29.100
And also, like, one of my concerns is that people think that if you're awakened that

01:03:29.100 --> 01:03:36.460
you're like better than other people or something, you know, you're actually just more human.

01:03:36.460 --> 01:03:43.160
And just more present to being here now, and more caring, more compassionate.

01:03:43.160 --> 01:03:48.920
me anyway. That's my experience. It's hard to describe. It's really indescribable. You know,

01:03:48.920 --> 01:03:54.840
I use a lot of different words in my book for this sense of being is what I felt after stream entry.

01:03:54.840 --> 01:04:03.880
This just being like down and connected and through and being with everything that is. And

01:04:03.880 --> 01:04:11.000
there's been a lot of adjusting, a lot of adjusting to this over the years and deepening more and more.

01:04:11.000 --> 01:04:16.280
Jordan: So, stream entry happened in Malaysia? Describe what is meant by stream entry.

01:04:16.280 --> 01:04:22.520
Jessica: Well, in Theravada Buddhism, they consider that the first stage of abiding awakening.

01:04:22.520 --> 01:04:25.720
That means that it's irreversible.

01:04:25.720 --> 01:04:28.120
Jordan: What is the stream that you're entering?

01:04:28.120 --> 01:04:34.680
Jessica: The stream is life, all of life and through, and you're in it.

01:04:34.680 --> 01:04:39.480
Jordan: Like the flow of divine consciousness or intelligence or something like that?

01:04:39.480 --> 01:04:40.200
Jessica: Yeah.

01:04:40.200 --> 01:04:45.940
And so rather than not being aware that there is such a thing or resisting it or something

01:04:45.940 --> 01:04:49.440
like that, you just have merged with it to the extent that you can flow with it.

01:04:49.440 --> 01:04:56.200
Well, there were still times where old habitual patterns would come up where I'd be like pushing

01:04:56.200 --> 01:05:00.880
away and it would really hurt more.

01:05:00.880 --> 01:05:07.380
It was more painful to push against it at that point, really painful.

01:05:07.380 --> 01:05:10.960
So it's a process of cooperation.

01:05:10.960 --> 01:05:13.520
We need to cooperate with this human life.

01:05:13.520 --> 01:05:17.240
And it's way more powerful than even the mind can handle.

01:05:17.240 --> 01:05:18.240
It's beyond the mind.

01:05:18.240 --> 01:05:19.240
It's huge.

01:05:19.240 --> 01:05:20.240
It's just awesome.

01:05:20.240 --> 01:05:28.560
Because what you're referring to is a much vaster consciousness or a much vaster intelligence.

01:05:28.560 --> 01:05:30.760
It's not just contained within our skull.

01:05:30.760 --> 01:05:34.920
So if we're going to merge with that, we have to cooperate with it.

01:05:34.920 --> 01:05:38.840
the word stream. The stream is flowing along. If you're gonna get in the stream, you want

01:05:38.840 --> 01:05:43.200
to flow with the stream. If you're kind of like hanging on to a rock or something like

01:05:43.200 --> 01:05:45.200
that, then there's all this turbulence.

01:05:45.200 --> 01:05:50.840
Right. And the Buddha talked about using the Noble Eightfold Path, for sure, all the way

01:05:50.840 --> 01:05:53.760
to the stream. And once you're in the stream, continue.

01:05:53.760 --> 01:05:56.880
Would it be worth running through what those eight things are?

01:05:56.880 --> 01:06:01.000
The Noble Eightfold Path, first right view.

01:06:01.000 --> 01:06:02.000
Meaning what?

01:06:02.000 --> 01:06:07.920
Having a view of life which I developed early in life, which is that we are participants,

01:06:07.920 --> 01:06:13.480
that we are all participants in this human life, that we are part of it, and having an

01:06:13.480 --> 01:06:15.720
openness to life.

01:06:15.720 --> 01:06:20.720
And probably I would include less dualistic thinking, really.

01:06:20.720 --> 01:06:25.780
Looking at some of the things that I was doing was actually Right View, working with Dyed.

01:06:25.780 --> 01:06:29.240
I think that was a development of Right View quite a bit.

01:06:29.240 --> 01:06:32.120
I don't know if I can name all of them right now.

01:06:32.120 --> 01:06:33.120
Oh, that's okay.

01:06:33.120 --> 01:06:36.720
Maybe just any ones that come to mind as being most significant or...

01:06:36.720 --> 01:06:43.960
Really having an intention for clarity, for presence, for honesty, connection, gentleness

01:06:43.960 --> 01:06:46.000
for me was the way.

01:06:46.000 --> 01:06:47.000
You do seem very gentle.

01:06:47.000 --> 01:06:48.560
I really appreciate that.

01:06:48.560 --> 01:06:53.280
I wasn't one of your sons and didn't get to experience what it was like if I broke a window,

01:06:53.280 --> 01:06:55.000
but you seem very gentle.

01:06:55.000 --> 01:06:56.000
Yeah.

01:06:56.000 --> 01:06:57.720
And being gentle is so important.

01:06:57.720 --> 01:06:58.720
Yeah.

01:06:58.720 --> 01:07:05.140
important I think but we also have to be firm sometimes too. Okay that's enough of

01:07:05.140 --> 01:07:10.540
that. You can be both. That's right. Gentle I sometimes would equate with the word

01:07:10.540 --> 01:07:18.820
subtle as opposed to crude, gross, you know, heavy. One can be very subtle and at the

01:07:18.820 --> 01:07:23.920
same time be firm it doesn't mean you become a pushover. That's right. I just

01:07:23.920 --> 01:07:28.420
didn't feel like I was doing it anymore. Everything is just sort of happening.

01:07:28.420 --> 01:07:33.420
whatever's left of the eye is just trying to participate and continue to cooperate.

01:07:33.420 --> 01:07:39.940
And any resistance to what is just needs to be faced into. Row, row, row your boat

01:07:39.940 --> 01:07:45.300
gently down the stream. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The stream's doing it, really. You're just kind

01:07:45.300 --> 01:07:51.300
of using the paddle just a little bit so you don't crash into something. Yeah, exactly.

01:07:51.300 --> 01:07:57.060
When I went off to Malaysia, I was so glad because they had changed from analog

01:07:57.060 --> 01:08:03.780
to digital on our TVs. Oh, yeah. And I told my sons, Oh, you guys won't be able to watch

01:08:03.780 --> 01:08:09.740
your TV shows. When I go, oh, well, I thought would help them focus more on their homework

01:08:09.740 --> 01:08:15.660
and doing first things first and taking good care of themselves and stuff like that. And

01:08:15.660 --> 01:08:22.620
I thought, well, we don't have a thing to convert the analog to digital. So, oh, well,

01:08:22.620 --> 01:08:26.580
and I had this experience in Malaysia where I sort of had a psychic experience where I

01:08:26.580 --> 01:08:30.820
I popped in on them, and I saw that they were helping each other at the computer because

01:08:30.820 --> 01:08:35.100
I had set them up with two computers side by side, like, to help each other.

01:08:35.100 --> 01:08:36.380
And I thought, "Oh, that's good.

01:08:36.380 --> 01:08:37.620
They're helping each other."

01:08:37.620 --> 01:08:41.660
And then when I got home, I realized that they had helped each other find their shows

01:08:41.660 --> 01:08:42.660
on the internet.

01:08:42.660 --> 01:08:44.420
Pete: Ah, so they could watch them.

01:08:44.420 --> 01:08:45.420
Kirsten: Right.

01:08:45.420 --> 01:08:49.460
So, they were very, very inventive and they figured out another way to get what they needed

01:08:49.460 --> 01:08:50.460
anyway.

01:08:50.460 --> 01:08:51.460
Pete: That's great.

01:08:51.460 --> 01:08:52.460
Kirsten: Even though I was gone.

01:08:52.460 --> 01:08:59.460
So that's when I realized, when I came back, I realized I can't go against this dream.

01:08:59.460 --> 01:09:04.020
They're connecting with film, they're connecting with all kinds of things in the world.

01:09:04.020 --> 01:09:09.380
And I have these two sons, ages 14 and 17 and 18, right in there.

01:09:09.380 --> 01:09:13.100
And I went, "Okay, we're going to have to get a digital TV."

01:09:13.100 --> 01:09:14.100
And they were like, "What?"

01:09:14.100 --> 01:09:17.180
And I said, "Yeah, we're going to have to do that."

01:09:17.180 --> 01:09:23.260
So then what I did is I spent years watching what they watch and sharing it with them.

01:09:23.260 --> 01:09:26.660
And after we watch a show, we really talk about it.

01:09:26.660 --> 01:09:28.900
We really, really talk about it.

01:09:28.900 --> 01:09:33.700
And I watch them, like watch all of these shows that have all this male toxicity in

01:09:33.700 --> 01:09:37.940
them and these hero things that they are watching.

01:09:37.940 --> 01:09:42.900
And so then I would just ask questions afterwards, like how did that feel?

01:09:42.900 --> 01:09:45.380
And what do you guys think about that?

01:09:45.380 --> 01:09:50.340
And did you notice that that African-American man was eliminated in the first 20 minutes?

01:09:50.340 --> 01:09:52.240
Why is that always happening?

01:09:52.240 --> 01:09:53.900
Let's look into this.

01:09:53.900 --> 01:09:57.660
And so over the years, we've had a lot of conversations.

01:09:57.660 --> 01:10:01.860
When we watch a film, we talk about the film for at least an hour.

01:10:01.860 --> 01:10:03.200
Wow, that's great.

01:10:03.200 --> 01:10:07.740
And we look at it from the psychological point of view, the theological point of view, the

01:10:07.740 --> 01:10:13.020
sociological point of view, the internalized oppressive point of view, if there's any of

01:10:13.020 --> 01:10:14.640
that in the system.

01:10:14.640 --> 01:10:19.560
We talk about it from the political point of view and also from the materialistic point

01:10:19.560 --> 01:10:20.560
of view.

01:10:20.560 --> 01:10:26.320
So, years went by, okay, and I asked my son one day, "One of your favorite old movies is

01:10:26.320 --> 01:10:28.280
coming up and there's a sequel.

01:10:28.280 --> 01:10:29.280
Do you want to see it?"

01:10:29.280 --> 01:10:32.360
And he went, "Mom, it's just war propaganda."

01:10:32.360 --> 01:10:33.360
Interesting.

01:10:33.360 --> 01:10:37.520
And I was like, "Wow."

01:10:37.520 --> 01:10:42.640
You know, all these conversations have really shaped a lot of things in my family and how

01:10:42.640 --> 01:10:48.240
we discuss things and how we look at things. And so, that's also, I think, an outcome of

01:10:48.240 --> 01:10:49.240
the awakening.

01:10:49.240 --> 01:10:50.640
Pete: That's very interesting. Wow.

01:10:50.640 --> 01:10:55.080
Kirsten: Leaning in and being curious about the people we love and what are they thinking

01:10:55.080 --> 01:10:57.400
and trying to have conversations that matter.

01:10:57.400 --> 01:10:58.400
Pete: Yeah.

01:10:58.400 --> 01:11:02.960
Kirsten: And trying to talk about things where what they view is also out on the table. Because

01:11:02.960 --> 01:11:07.200
I would see them disagreeing and they'd be fighting with each other and I'd go, oh,

01:11:07.200 --> 01:11:11.920
that's just a sociological point of view and that's the psychological point of view.

01:11:11.920 --> 01:11:14.720
And they'd go, "Oh, thanks."

01:11:14.720 --> 01:11:18.180
And we could have these conversations more and more.

01:11:18.180 --> 01:11:23.040
And that's what's been so rich is this aliveness that I brought home from the awakening that

01:11:23.040 --> 01:11:28.600
I don't know if I would have really gotten it as much beforehand, because I just wasn't

01:11:28.600 --> 01:11:32.380
afraid to approach these conversations and difficulties.

01:11:32.380 --> 01:11:35.280
And I wasn't able to discern all of these different points of view.

01:11:35.280 --> 01:11:37.640
Like there's a lot of different points of view.

01:11:37.640 --> 01:11:42.200
Like we've said, we've talked about really tragic and horrific points of view that are

01:11:42.200 --> 01:11:47.180
out there, and they're so limited, you know, but we can open our consciousness and we can

01:11:47.180 --> 01:11:49.320
look at our capacities in different ways.

01:11:49.320 --> 01:11:54.480
And we can discuss things in ways that really help people kind of go, "Oh, yeah, hmm, I'm

01:11:54.480 --> 01:11:57.480
kind of holding on to this point of view.

01:11:57.480 --> 01:12:00.760
What if I loosened it up and I saw that I don't have to be right?

01:12:00.760 --> 01:12:02.280
I don't have to be right.

01:12:02.280 --> 01:12:05.080
I can be a student of life.

01:12:05.080 --> 01:12:08.480
And I can learn, I can learn here about this life.

01:12:08.480 --> 01:12:13.200
What are some of the most interesting and informative movies that you and your family

01:12:13.200 --> 01:12:15.580
have watched together and discussed?

01:12:15.580 --> 01:12:21.120
I can think of like four, but one that we like, of course, is The Matrix.

01:12:21.120 --> 01:12:22.960
We like The Matrix a lot.

01:12:22.960 --> 01:12:23.960
Sure.

01:12:23.960 --> 01:12:24.960
And Inception.

01:12:24.960 --> 01:12:25.960
Oh, yeah.

01:12:25.960 --> 01:12:27.840
With Leonardo DiCaprio, was it?

01:12:27.840 --> 01:12:28.840
Yeah.

01:12:28.840 --> 01:12:36.280
really deals with the deep levels of consciousness, deep inside the mind, you know, and what is

01:12:36.280 --> 01:12:40.960
hiding in there that really wants to be seen, really wants to be seen.

01:12:40.960 --> 01:12:45.920
And that also happened to me after stream entry, I was able to really see these deep

01:12:45.920 --> 01:12:52.080
parts of myself that I had still been holding, but that I was able to go, I was still holding

01:12:52.080 --> 01:12:57.780
that and these, these little adhesions would come up more and more and I could see them

01:12:57.780 --> 01:13:02.340
and free them up with so much compassion and so much openness.

01:13:02.340 --> 01:13:04.140
It was so much better.

01:13:04.140 --> 01:13:05.740
I was able to do that.

01:13:05.740 --> 01:13:09.500
One of my favorite films I'd like to recommend is a film called The Quiet Girl.

01:13:09.500 --> 01:13:10.500
The Quiet Girl.

01:13:10.500 --> 01:13:11.500
The Quiet Girl.

01:13:11.500 --> 01:13:13.620
Highly recommend it.

01:13:13.620 --> 01:13:20.780
It's a movie that's about how a girl needs a home and she stays with some relatives and

01:13:20.780 --> 01:13:22.620
they're kind to her.

01:13:22.620 --> 01:13:26.980
They treat her with kindness and just the tender kindness is shown throughout the film,

01:13:26.980 --> 01:13:29.420
little by little how she's transformed.

01:13:29.420 --> 01:13:32.180
And actually watching the film for the first time,

01:13:32.180 --> 01:13:33.780
I was a little worried about her.

01:13:33.780 --> 01:13:35.700
But I'll give you a spoiler alert.

01:13:35.700 --> 01:13:37.120
You don't have to worry.

01:13:37.120 --> 01:13:38.140
(laughing)

01:13:38.140 --> 01:13:39.660
You don't have to worry about her.

01:13:39.660 --> 01:13:44.220
Because she, just like us, gets kindness.

01:13:44.220 --> 01:13:45.300
We get it.

01:13:45.300 --> 01:13:46.140
- It's nice.

01:13:46.140 --> 01:13:48.760
- When you're treated with sincerity and kindness,

01:13:48.760 --> 01:13:49.600
you get it.

01:13:49.600 --> 01:13:52.300
And that's what we need to do with one another.

01:13:52.300 --> 01:13:54.580
So another movie recently that I like

01:13:54.580 --> 01:13:57.500
that we were just talking about was "Perfect Days."

01:13:57.500 --> 01:14:00.180
We really do connect a lot with film.

01:14:00.180 --> 01:14:02.140
One of my sons is a great editor.

01:14:02.140 --> 01:14:03.460
He loves film.

01:14:03.460 --> 01:14:06.060
Yeah, they're both wonderful.

01:14:06.060 --> 01:14:07.380
If anybody came over to the house

01:14:07.380 --> 01:14:08.440
and watched a movie with us,

01:14:08.440 --> 01:14:11.140
they would be amazed at what happens after the movie

01:14:11.140 --> 01:14:12.900
with these conversations,

01:14:12.900 --> 01:14:14.260
because we have to just go,

01:14:14.260 --> 01:14:16.580
okay, you go, now you, now you.

01:14:16.580 --> 01:14:20.980
We have so much rich view of what's happening

01:14:20.980 --> 01:14:21.820
and understanding,

01:14:21.820 --> 01:14:24.620
and when you watch them, you participate in it.

01:14:24.620 --> 01:14:27.460
You know, feel what is happening to you.

01:14:27.460 --> 01:14:30.700
How are you affected by what is going on?

01:14:30.700 --> 01:14:33.700
And this is also a metaphor for life.

01:14:33.700 --> 01:14:36.500
How are we affected when you walk down the street?

01:14:36.500 --> 01:14:38.340
When you see a dog barking?

01:14:38.340 --> 01:14:40.260
When you see things around you?

01:14:40.260 --> 01:14:41.980
How are you affected by that?

01:14:41.980 --> 01:14:44.540
I mean, this is what we need to pay attention to.

01:14:44.540 --> 01:14:45.980
So I really brought that home.

01:14:45.980 --> 01:14:49.000
I think this was more of a key change

01:14:49.000 --> 01:14:51.420
that I think really impacted my life

01:14:51.420 --> 01:14:55.860
the life of my family. Because we could just talk about the description of consciousness

01:14:55.860 --> 01:15:00.700
and all these feelings and all this stuff like that. But it really impacted my life

01:15:00.700 --> 01:15:07.980
and my family's life. And also a lot of patience came up too. It took 11 years to get the kitchen.

01:15:07.980 --> 01:15:15.700
Okay. It takes what it takes. Little by little, cabinet by cabinet, we built it and we got

01:15:15.700 --> 01:15:17.580
it done. And it's really nice.

01:15:17.580 --> 01:15:23.380
That's great. Well, if I ever come to Minneapolis, I'll come over for a movie, a sandwich, and

01:15:23.380 --> 01:15:24.380
some cheesecake.

01:15:24.380 --> 01:15:25.380
That'd be great. Or a banana cream pie.

01:15:25.380 --> 01:15:32.860
A banana cream pie, yeah, and a big discussion. So, stream entry, okay. As I understand it,

01:15:32.860 --> 01:15:36.940
stream entry is kind of an initial stage, you know, considering how many more stages

01:15:36.940 --> 01:15:41.300
there are. I've heard about all these genres, I couldn't tell you what they are. Daniel

01:15:41.300 --> 01:15:47.380
Ingram says he's an arhot, and he's not shy to say it, but I'm not so much conversant with

01:15:47.380 --> 01:15:52.540
the Buddhist terminology, but in your own experience after the stream entry thing, which happened

01:15:52.540 --> 01:15:58.780
15 years ago or more, can you outline how it has evolved, some stages of progress? And

01:15:58.780 --> 01:16:01.700
I know that there's that whole thing of, you know, those who know don't say and those who

01:16:01.700 --> 01:16:07.180
say don't know, but still, as Daniel would emphasize, or as Jesus said, we shouldn't

01:16:07.180 --> 01:16:11.500
hide our light under a bushel, we can, we should be able to talk about these things.

01:16:11.500 --> 01:16:15.020
At least that's how books got written about them, or the ancient scriptures, somebody

01:16:15.020 --> 01:16:20.940
wrote it down and people should know well if I'm going to do this what's the payoff?

01:16:20.940 --> 01:16:25.100
What could I expect to experience after 20 years of practice or something that would

01:16:25.100 --> 01:16:26.740
really make it worthwhile?

01:16:26.740 --> 01:16:29.900
It just continues to unfold more and more.

01:16:29.900 --> 01:16:33.820
More happiness, blissfulness, wisdom or...

01:16:33.820 --> 01:16:34.820
Yes.

01:16:34.820 --> 01:16:35.820
Compassion.

01:16:35.820 --> 01:16:36.820
Love.

01:16:36.820 --> 01:16:40.220
Wisdom, love, over and over.

01:16:40.220 --> 01:16:46.300
I was just eating something the other day and I realized I understand so many things.

01:16:46.300 --> 01:16:49.380
Like when Jesus said, "This is my body, this is my blood."

01:16:49.380 --> 01:16:50.380
Like I get that.

01:16:50.380 --> 01:16:52.060
How do you interpret that?

01:16:52.060 --> 01:16:54.460
We are all connected through everything.

01:16:54.460 --> 01:17:00.420
We're actually in every breath and every drink of water and everything that we do, the earth

01:17:00.420 --> 01:17:04.440
and every piece is all connected through everything.

01:17:04.440 --> 01:17:06.620
And it's just deeper and deeper.

01:17:06.620 --> 01:17:13.420
The levels of training and the levels of work that I'm doing, I reserve for my teachers.

01:17:13.420 --> 01:17:18.700
The closer conversations with my teachers about stages and levels at this point, but

01:17:18.700 --> 01:17:21.620
I am free to talk about stream entry.

01:17:21.620 --> 01:17:26.100
And I have been given support by my teachers to talk about stream entry.

01:17:26.100 --> 01:17:27.100
Okay.

01:17:27.100 --> 01:17:31.100
So in other words, you're actually advised not to talk about some of these more things

01:17:31.100 --> 01:17:35.520
because they're too intimate or it wouldn't be constructive to talk about them for you

01:17:35.520 --> 01:17:36.800
or perhaps others.

01:17:36.800 --> 01:17:40.320
Right, on this forum, but in more close circles.

01:17:40.320 --> 01:17:42.240
Right, private classes and things.

01:17:42.240 --> 01:17:48.240
Private classes I would, with private students, but in this forum it's better for me not to.

01:17:48.240 --> 01:17:49.920
No, I understand.

01:17:49.920 --> 01:17:55.800
I've been on courses where, you know, six-month meditation courses where people are mic hogs,

01:17:55.800 --> 01:17:59.800
they're just getting up on the mic and just boasting about all these flashy experiences

01:17:59.800 --> 01:18:04.480
that they're having and everything, and then 20 years later they've really gone off the

01:18:04.480 --> 01:18:08.680
deep end into some dark place. And so what was all that about? You know, I've

01:18:08.680 --> 01:18:12.480
interviewed some other people who, like Swami Sarvapayananda, for instance, who

01:18:12.480 --> 01:18:17.280
I respect a lot, and in his tradition he says, "We just don't say. You never get me

01:18:17.280 --> 01:18:20.680
to admit to any state of enlightenment or anything else. It's not something that

01:18:20.680 --> 01:18:25.280
you would talk about." Well, once you get into the stream, you pretty much get

01:18:25.280 --> 01:18:31.520
moving forward. If you have good teaching and you have good support, you really just get

01:18:31.520 --> 01:18:37.600
pulled more and more closer and more intimate into the process. It's been hard for me to

01:18:37.600 --> 01:18:41.200
talk about it. I haven't had that many people talk about it. So it's fun to talk about it

01:18:41.200 --> 01:18:46.160
with you, Rick. And hopefully others will benefit from this. And that was how my teachers

01:18:46.160 --> 01:18:52.680
approved of this book and said, for this purpose, we would like this to be inspiring to others.

01:18:52.680 --> 01:18:54.920
And that's what I hope is.

01:18:54.920 --> 01:18:57.240
Did you ever read Peace Pilgrim's little book?

01:18:57.240 --> 01:18:58.240
No.

01:18:58.240 --> 01:19:13.240
You'd like it. It was this lady who called herself Peace Pilgrim and she just walked around the United States wearing a sweatshirt that said Peace Pilgrim on it, with nothing but the clothes on her back, no money, no nothing, completely at the mercy of God or nature or whatever.

01:19:13.240 --> 01:19:21.240
And she did this for years. And she was never harmed, she was always fed or given a place to sleep, almost always, it was a little rough sometimes.

01:19:21.240 --> 01:19:25.880
And she just has this radiant, saintly look on her face. The reason I thought of her was that you

01:19:25.880 --> 01:19:30.680
talked about how after stream entry, it just sort of really accelerates. And she actually had this

01:19:30.680 --> 01:19:35.000
little chart in her book. She didn't call it stream entry, but prior to awakening, whatever

01:19:35.000 --> 01:19:40.600
she called it, that it was sort of wiggly up and down. But then once you reach a certain point,

01:19:40.600 --> 01:19:46.040
it just takes off because God is in the driver's seat or something after that. And so, it's a lot

01:19:46.040 --> 01:19:47.000
better driving.

01:19:47.000 --> 01:19:52.460
Jill: And it's true, a lot of it depends on your willingness. Like, I continued to be

01:19:52.460 --> 01:19:58.720
extremely willing and open. And I did go to Spirit Rock. I came home in November and I

01:19:58.720 --> 01:20:05.760
went to Spirit Rock in March on a full, intensive, silent retreat. And that really brought deeper

01:20:05.760 --> 01:20:12.680
practice, intensive practice very quickly. And that pile of rocks that was on my driveway

01:20:12.680 --> 01:20:14.000
when I got home from Malaysia...

01:20:14.000 --> 01:20:15.600
- Oh yeah, I heard about that.

01:20:15.600 --> 01:20:18.400
- I sat there for about three years.

01:20:18.400 --> 01:20:20.520
I was going through a lot of adjustment

01:20:20.520 --> 01:20:22.920
and we had to rebuild that retaining wall

01:20:22.920 --> 01:20:24.500
because it wasn't plumb.

01:20:24.500 --> 01:20:28.800
So it took us a while to do a lot of things and go slow.

01:20:28.800 --> 01:20:32.560
And I really want my story to help people understand

01:20:32.560 --> 01:20:36.080
to go slow, be gradual, take it easy.

01:20:36.080 --> 01:20:40.640
You know, you don't need a lot of bleed through and trouble.

01:20:40.640 --> 01:20:43.080
You can actually be gentle and take it easy,

01:20:43.080 --> 01:20:47.740
slow things down. Reminds me of Brother Sun Sister Moon. There's that beautiful song

01:20:47.740 --> 01:20:52.080
and it would do few things and do them well take your time go slowly. Yeah.

01:20:52.080 --> 01:20:58.440
Remember that? Donovan sang those songs. It's beautiful. Is your husband Stuart still in the game?

01:20:58.440 --> 01:21:04.680
Oh yeah he's okay. We all work together. Okay good. He's a saint. He was just

01:21:04.680 --> 01:21:09.960
hanging in there with you know all this wild stuff you're going through. I know. I

01:21:09.960 --> 01:21:15.960
I know. He's just got his way of supporting us and he loves us, you know, through the things that he does.

01:21:15.960 --> 01:21:16.960
That's great.

01:21:16.960 --> 01:21:26.960
We have different ways of being, different ways of communicating, and I really respect and love him for all of the work he's done and that he continues to do for us.

01:21:26.960 --> 01:21:31.960
Several times in the last few minutes you've said, "My teacher said I could do this, my teacher said I could do that."

01:21:31.960 --> 01:21:37.960
And some people might hear that and they think, "Well, wait a minute. Can't she do whatever the heck she wants? Why does she have to take orders from her teachers?"

01:21:37.960 --> 01:21:41.960
And I could give an answer to that, but I'd like to hear you respond to that.

01:21:41.960 --> 01:21:45.960
Well, I think it's about a resonance in the advice.

01:21:45.960 --> 01:21:49.960
It isn't just what they said, but I resonate with it.

01:21:49.960 --> 01:21:53.960
And so, I think that it's wise for me.

01:21:53.960 --> 01:21:57.960
I also don't really want to give ideas about other stages of awakening.

01:21:57.960 --> 01:22:01.960
Well, I'm not questioning that, the decision not to talk about those stages.

01:22:01.960 --> 01:22:05.960
But just the point of obeying a teacher, you know, that's a little

01:22:05.960 --> 01:22:07.360
problematic for some people.

01:22:07.360 --> 01:22:08.200
- Yeah, I'm actually--

01:22:08.200 --> 01:22:11.200
- And it's actually, it's abused in some cases.

01:22:11.200 --> 01:22:13.040
- Well, I'm not very good at that.

01:22:13.040 --> 01:22:15.160
I've never been very good at that.

01:22:15.160 --> 01:22:18.360
Generally, I don't get along very well with hierarchy

01:22:18.360 --> 01:22:20.920
because of all of my years in recovery

01:22:20.920 --> 01:22:22.920
where everyone was equal

01:22:22.920 --> 01:22:25.160
and if there was someone else that needed to speak,

01:22:25.160 --> 01:22:27.920
I actually love the days when we didn't have a speaker

01:22:27.920 --> 01:22:31.560
and someone just had to step up and that was the day

01:22:31.560 --> 01:22:34.080
and we all learned from that person.

01:22:34.080 --> 01:22:37.640
I've had trouble in organizations where there's a lot of hierarchy.

01:22:37.640 --> 01:22:40.040
I don't do well with that.

01:22:40.040 --> 01:22:45.440
Also, a lot of women have been harmed through the patriarchy for a long time, and I've really

01:22:45.440 --> 01:22:48.560
felt that, and I'm aware of that.

01:22:48.560 --> 01:22:53.960
And so, it isn't that my teacher said, it's just that in conversation, it felt wise for

01:22:53.960 --> 01:22:54.960
me to agree.

01:22:54.960 --> 01:22:55.960
Yeah.

01:22:55.960 --> 01:23:00.360
I was just having a conversation with a friend this morning, and we were talking about how

01:23:00.360 --> 01:23:07.480
some spiritual teachers lament that they actually don't have any friends who are peers, you know,

01:23:07.480 --> 01:23:12.680
who are not treating them special. And the only friends they have are their students,

01:23:12.680 --> 01:23:17.320
but there's this hierarchical feeling, especially if they wanted to, you know, have a kind of

01:23:17.320 --> 01:23:21.880
romantic relationship with somebody, it's very problematic. And we were talking about how

01:23:21.880 --> 01:23:27.880
teachers really need to have a circle of friends who can call them on their stuff,

01:23:27.880 --> 01:23:32.520
treat them like an ordinary Joe, not make a big fuss about them, things like that.

01:23:32.520 --> 01:23:34.600
Jill That's right, and that's why I'm interested

01:23:34.600 --> 01:23:40.360
in this organization that you've started. And, you know, signing up for that as well,

01:23:40.360 --> 01:23:41.800
and getting to know other people.

01:23:41.800 --> 01:23:45.080
Pete You're referring to the Association for

01:23:45.080 --> 01:23:52.280
Spiritual Integrity, which is spiritual-integrity.org. And that's one of our functions is to help to

01:23:52.280 --> 01:23:57.240
create networks. We actually have this little thing where people create these little subgroups

01:23:57.240 --> 01:24:02.120
and have a monthly Zoom meeting or something with just four people where they can kind of touch

01:24:02.120 --> 01:24:07.080
base and see how they're doing and check up on each other, things like that. Yeah, it's true.

01:24:07.080 --> 01:24:12.920
I feel like the kind of role that I would hold is sort of like we're at different places on the path,

01:24:12.920 --> 01:24:17.560
but we're the same distance from the ditch. Yeah, I like that phrase. I remember that one. Yeah,

01:24:17.560 --> 01:24:24.440
I really feel that there is some respect for having more experience and holding space that is

01:24:24.440 --> 01:24:31.720
based in respect and kindness and really working with skills around that. But that everyone has

01:24:31.720 --> 01:24:38.680
a voice. Everyone has wisdom to share. Everyone is something to offer. I don't want to be like this

01:24:38.680 --> 01:24:44.440
little, you know, attention. I don't think I could do that. I would like to hear from others like a

01:24:44.440 --> 01:24:49.960
wisdom circle. Pete: Yeah, that's really good. I've actually seen situations in which constructive

01:24:49.960 --> 01:24:57.160
criticism is not allowed. And if it's offered, that person is ostracized. Literally, their bags are

01:24:57.160 --> 01:25:02.280
packed for them and they're out of there. That's really difficult. I like to be corrected. Please

01:25:02.280 --> 01:25:08.760
correct me if I'm wrong. I want to be corrected. And everyone needs it because nobody, in my

01:25:08.760 --> 01:25:17.640
experience, is above or beyond self-delusion. It's easy to be blind to one's own weak spots and

01:25:17.640 --> 01:25:23.400
limitations and you really need a peer of some sort, perhaps a spouse, perhaps a friend,

01:25:23.400 --> 01:25:26.000
or perhaps a circle of friends.

01:25:26.000 --> 01:25:30.520
Where's that poem by Robert Burns, "Oh, would some God the gift he give us to see ourselves

01:25:30.520 --> 01:25:31.520
as others see us."

01:25:31.520 --> 01:25:32.520
You know?

01:25:32.520 --> 01:25:33.520
Pete It's true.

01:25:33.520 --> 01:25:34.520
I think we need feedback.

01:25:34.520 --> 01:25:39.040
And like, I recently told someone who is a friend of mine who's very highly enlightened

01:25:39.040 --> 01:25:40.040
that he is an oaf.

01:25:40.040 --> 01:25:44.400
Pete You're acting a lot like an oaf.

01:25:44.400 --> 01:25:47.900
And the indifference is inappropriate.

01:25:47.900 --> 01:25:52.380
This is not a time for that kind of, I don't know if it's equanimity, but the near enemy

01:25:52.380 --> 01:25:55.060
of equanimity is indifference.

01:25:55.060 --> 01:25:59.060
And there can be a lot of spiritual teachers that get into this sort of indifference, like

01:25:59.060 --> 01:26:00.860
they're above it all or something.

01:26:00.860 --> 01:26:06.300
No, we need to stay centered in the heart and connected with the heart and have compassion

01:26:06.300 --> 01:26:11.900
for many things and struggles and traumas that are part of our own lives.

01:26:11.900 --> 01:26:14.900
I was recently part of a trauma in my own life.

01:26:14.900 --> 01:26:17.900
So I'm really, really aware of that.

01:26:17.900 --> 01:26:19.900
Yeah, that's really good.

01:26:19.900 --> 01:26:23.900
People can connect with me on conversations and on Substack.

01:26:23.900 --> 01:26:27.900
I have some videos and newsletters and learn more about me.

01:26:27.900 --> 01:26:31.900
And my way of being in the world is to just be myself,

01:26:31.900 --> 01:26:34.900
just working with life as it is.

01:26:34.900 --> 01:26:36.900
I don't want to be above anything.

01:26:36.900 --> 01:26:38.900
I want to just be with what is right here,

01:26:38.900 --> 01:26:44.260
even if it's really difficult, and it has been many, many times in my life, very difficult.

01:26:44.260 --> 01:26:48.540
Yeah, that's interesting what you said about indifference. You know, there's that phrase

01:26:48.540 --> 01:26:49.540
spiritual bypassing.

01:26:49.540 --> 01:26:50.540
Oh, yeah.

01:26:50.540 --> 01:26:56.800
You've heard of that one, where people somehow use some spiritual concept or even experience

01:26:56.800 --> 01:27:00.820
to elude things that they actually should be dealing with.

01:27:00.820 --> 01:27:06.620
Yeah, I guess I just look at that as one of the hindrances. And part of the way I teach

01:27:06.620 --> 01:27:09.280
is to look at the five hindrances.

01:27:09.280 --> 01:27:13.060
And as we bring up and we awaken

01:27:13.060 --> 01:27:15.380
the factors of enlightenment within us,

01:27:15.380 --> 01:27:16.900
the hindrances go down.

01:27:16.900 --> 01:27:19.960
So the factors of enlightenment are within us.

01:27:19.960 --> 01:27:22.820
And as they go up, the hindrances go down.

01:27:22.820 --> 01:27:24.380
And we don't want to hide.

01:27:24.380 --> 01:27:25.820
We don't want to be dishonest.

01:27:25.820 --> 01:27:26.980
We want to know.

01:27:26.980 --> 01:27:28.620
We want to really work with this.

01:27:28.620 --> 01:27:30.740
This is workable material.

01:27:30.740 --> 01:27:32.960
This is cool stuff.

01:27:32.960 --> 01:27:34.860
We want to know it and be with it.

01:27:34.860 --> 01:27:39.420
and it's juicy, it's alive, it's got vital life force

01:27:39.420 --> 01:27:41.900
flowing through all the time.

01:27:41.900 --> 01:27:42.980
It's amazing.

01:27:42.980 --> 01:27:44.380
- Nice.

01:27:44.380 --> 01:27:46.420
What is your method of teaching now?

01:27:46.420 --> 01:27:48.700
Like, what do you do?

01:27:48.700 --> 01:27:51.860
How often do you do it with people?

01:27:51.860 --> 01:27:52.800
- I have a chart.

01:27:52.800 --> 01:27:55.660
- Why don't you go into some details on those,

01:27:55.660 --> 01:27:56.700
we have time.

01:27:56.700 --> 01:28:01.700
- So I actually, whenever I was doing a fourth step,

01:28:01.980 --> 01:28:03.680
which is in the 12-step program.

01:28:03.680 --> 01:28:06.380
For many, many years, I was taking inventory

01:28:06.380 --> 01:28:08.860
on what was going on with me that was preventing me

01:28:08.860 --> 01:28:12.100
from being closer to turning over my will and my life.

01:28:12.100 --> 01:28:15.460
And I didn't realize it that actually it was the same

01:28:15.460 --> 01:28:19.140
as these five hindrances, which the Buddha talked about

01:28:19.140 --> 01:28:21.580
and are discussed in Theravada Buddhism.

01:28:21.580 --> 01:28:23.700
And so it really helps to get familiar

01:28:23.700 --> 01:28:25.060
with these five hindrances.

01:28:25.060 --> 01:28:28.020
They're like clouds that once we see them,

01:28:28.020 --> 01:28:30.220
we can just see, oh, that's a delusion.

01:28:30.220 --> 01:28:31.960
And then-- - Remind us what they are.

01:28:31.960 --> 01:28:33.960
The first one is desire.

01:28:33.960 --> 01:28:38.480
So desire is grasping for something, greed or desire.

01:28:38.480 --> 01:28:41.440
You really want something, you're pulling it toward you.

01:28:41.440 --> 01:28:43.080
And then the next one is--

01:28:43.080 --> 01:28:44.360
- Wait a minute, before you go to the next one.

01:28:44.360 --> 01:28:45.800
So what's the difference between,

01:28:45.800 --> 01:28:47.600
I want some cheesecake or,

01:28:47.600 --> 01:28:49.440
I want some cheesecake.

01:28:49.440 --> 01:28:50.600
- That's the difference.

01:28:50.600 --> 01:28:51.520
That's the difference.

01:28:51.520 --> 01:28:54.080
The compulsiveness, the real urgency.

01:28:54.080 --> 01:28:55.000
- Attachment, maybe.

01:28:55.000 --> 01:28:56.180
- The attachment, yeah.

01:28:56.180 --> 01:28:59.120
The clinging, instead of seeing that this is an option

01:28:59.120 --> 01:29:00.920
and it's not harmful.

01:29:00.920 --> 01:29:06.920
there's nothing wrong with it. You can enjoy it. But if you don't get it, it's not the end of the world. Right, right.

01:29:06.920 --> 01:29:13.920
And so then the next one is inappropriate anger or ill will. And that also includes boredom.

01:29:13.920 --> 01:29:19.920
Because sometimes when we're bored, we're saying to the universe, you're not interesting enough to me.

01:29:19.920 --> 01:29:27.920
I don't like you universe. And we don't see our participation. So we have to look at our participation in these.

01:29:27.920 --> 01:29:32.320
Some say that anger is blocked desire, thwarted desire.

01:29:32.320 --> 01:29:36.960
If you desire something and you meet up against a wall,

01:29:36.960 --> 01:29:41.280
then the inappropriate but all too common reaction is to flare up in anger.

01:29:41.280 --> 01:29:47.600
Right, right. And so for these first two hindrances, the desire and the anger are like

01:29:47.600 --> 01:29:50.720
two sides, like that's one side and that's the other side.

01:29:50.720 --> 01:29:56.720
So one is grasping, clinging, and one is pushing away, not wanting.

01:29:56.720 --> 01:30:05.360
And so it's really important to be aware of this happening because in samsara is nirvana.

01:30:05.360 --> 01:30:07.200
Define those terms.

01:30:07.200 --> 01:30:12.400
So samsara is the cycle of suffering that we're going through over and over again.

01:30:12.400 --> 01:30:16.920
And when we get closer and closer into it and we get really close and gentle and feel

01:30:16.920 --> 01:30:22.080
it in our body and the sensate awareness, the release comes.

01:30:22.080 --> 01:30:26.080
So we have to get intimate with what is going on and what we're participating in and what

01:30:26.080 --> 01:30:28.340
these habitual tendencies are.

01:30:28.340 --> 01:30:30.560
And so we all have these too.

01:30:30.560 --> 01:30:31.560
We all have them.

01:30:31.560 --> 01:30:35.560
And that's one of the things that freed me up in studying Theravada Buddhism was because

01:30:35.560 --> 01:30:39.680
I had been looking at all of these things going on within me for years and years and

01:30:39.680 --> 01:30:40.680
years.

01:30:40.680 --> 01:30:44.120
And in the program, they were labeled as defects of character.

01:30:44.120 --> 01:30:47.840
And so I thought there's something wrong with me, but there's nothing wrong.

01:30:47.840 --> 01:30:50.840
It's just part of what we need to work with.

01:30:50.840 --> 01:30:55.560
It's just part of the workable batter that's here, that we can learn to become more and

01:30:55.560 --> 01:30:58.820
more skillful with and more honest about.

01:30:58.820 --> 01:31:01.400
And so those two are like one side of the coin,

01:31:01.400 --> 01:31:02.480
the other side of the coin,

01:31:02.480 --> 01:31:05.680
it's compulsive desire and then the anger and ill will.

01:31:05.680 --> 01:31:08.920
And then the next two hindrances are also like

01:31:08.920 --> 01:31:10.840
one side of the coin and the other.

01:31:10.840 --> 01:31:13.680
So the next one is stagnation,

01:31:13.680 --> 01:31:17.980
which we can label as a kind of overall sort of stuckness,

01:31:17.980 --> 01:31:20.360
kind of like a mud puddle with sticks and moss

01:31:20.360 --> 01:31:22.880
and everything grown over it.

01:31:22.880 --> 01:31:24.360
- Like dullness, lethargy.

01:31:24.360 --> 01:31:27.160
fullness, lethargy, just kind of like a,

01:31:27.160 --> 01:31:30.760
uh, like real cloudiness.

01:31:30.760 --> 01:31:32.640
The next one is agitation,

01:31:32.640 --> 01:31:35.960
where you're just overexcited, overstimulated.

01:31:35.960 --> 01:31:40.120
Now, agitation is just like the water is just all like this.

01:31:40.120 --> 01:31:43.320
And then the stagnation is like the water's like this.

01:31:43.320 --> 01:31:45.800
And so those two are also good to be aware of,

01:31:45.800 --> 01:31:48.320
like how is the energy moving here and here?

01:31:48.320 --> 01:31:51.040
And what can you do to support yourself

01:31:51.040 --> 01:31:53.760
to move through that with some clarity

01:31:53.760 --> 01:31:56.160
and some kindness and gentleness.

01:31:56.160 --> 01:31:59.320
And then underneath all of these is doubt.

01:31:59.320 --> 01:32:02.920
And with stream entry, the doubt gets severely,

01:32:02.920 --> 01:32:04.320
the doubt is gone,

01:32:04.320 --> 01:32:06.200
because you realize at this point

01:32:06.200 --> 01:32:09.160
that there isn't any other way but this.

01:32:09.160 --> 01:32:11.520
You have to pay attention to what is.

01:32:11.520 --> 01:32:15.240
And so the doubt is also something to become friends with,

01:32:15.240 --> 01:32:18.160
because when you look at your relationship with doubt,

01:32:18.160 --> 01:32:21.120
you're building a sense of faith in the process.

01:32:21.120 --> 01:32:25.060
And so I feel like the doubt is sort of like the bottom,

01:32:25.060 --> 01:32:28.980
like all in here, and then these are these hindrances here.

01:32:28.980 --> 01:32:30.640
And so I wanted to do a drawing about it,

01:32:30.640 --> 01:32:31.960
but I haven't done that yet.

01:32:31.960 --> 01:32:34.320
And this is really important.

01:32:34.320 --> 01:32:36.520
We have to get honest with ourselves.

01:32:36.520 --> 01:32:38.320
Like I said before, in the beginning,

01:32:38.320 --> 01:32:40.400
you have to remove shame.

01:32:40.400 --> 01:32:42.200
You have to remove inappropriate shame

01:32:42.200 --> 01:32:45.080
and feelings of unworthiness when these things come up

01:32:45.080 --> 01:32:47.080
because that prevents you from learning.

01:32:47.080 --> 01:32:49.880
If there's overwhelming shame, you can't learn.

01:32:49.880 --> 01:32:55.380
But like you said, it's okay to have shame for inappropriate behavior.

01:32:55.380 --> 01:32:58.080
If I've done something wrong, I want to be corrected.

01:32:58.080 --> 01:33:00.580
And so there might be some appropriate shame.

01:33:00.580 --> 01:33:02.880
I want to resolve not to do that again.

01:33:02.880 --> 01:33:06.380
And I want to apologize and I want to repair and make amends.

01:33:06.380 --> 01:33:08.380
That's an appropriate amount of shame.

01:33:08.380 --> 01:33:13.380
But sometimes in our culture, there's just an overwhelming, constricted sense of shame

01:33:13.380 --> 01:33:16.880
for learning, for just learning about this human life.

01:33:16.880 --> 01:33:25.880
Because as kids and in school, you don't get taught emotional states of being and being in different states and working through difficult states.

01:33:25.880 --> 01:33:30.880
You know, this just this emotional intelligence is not honored and supported in our society.

01:33:30.880 --> 01:33:37.840
I try to teach through that and then the mindfulness of being aware of these states with a sense

01:33:37.840 --> 01:33:43.800
of generosity and kindness for yourself as you really tune in to what's happening and

01:33:43.800 --> 01:33:50.200
possibly also uncover some deeply hidden beliefs that are there and working through whatever

01:33:50.200 --> 01:33:55.080
it is and then getting closer and closer into meditation and what you're comfortable with

01:33:55.080 --> 01:33:56.320
for sitting times.

01:33:56.320 --> 01:34:00.760
I think people should build up gradually, very gradually.

01:34:00.760 --> 01:34:02.800
I've been sitting for years and years and years,

01:34:02.800 --> 01:34:04.800
but before I went to Malaysia,

01:34:04.800 --> 01:34:06.440
I was sitting three times a day

01:34:06.440 --> 01:34:09.200
and then I was doing half day retreats

01:34:09.200 --> 01:34:13.080
and then weekend retreats and then a five day retreat

01:34:13.080 --> 01:34:15.060
and then a 10 day retreat.

01:34:15.060 --> 01:34:17.700
And then I went on a big long retreat.

01:34:17.700 --> 01:34:19.840
So I do think it's really important

01:34:19.840 --> 01:34:23.000
to gradually build up your sitting practice

01:34:23.000 --> 01:34:25.440
so that you're really staying centered

01:34:25.440 --> 01:34:32.320
you're integrated with your life and your family and at home, you feel safe, you can start to work

01:34:32.320 --> 01:34:36.960
with what's happening because this sense of self gets all broken up. And you probably need some

01:34:36.960 --> 01:34:42.960
instruction on how to meditate, otherwise you can't just sit and you need to know what to do a little

01:34:42.960 --> 01:34:47.520
bit. There needs to be some kind of confirmation that you're doing the right thing or not doing the

01:34:47.520 --> 01:34:52.800
right thing and so on. It's different for different people. The Buddha taught like 37 different types

01:34:52.800 --> 01:34:57.280
of meditation. Yeah, there's something called the Shiva Sutras, which outlines something

01:34:57.280 --> 01:35:03.040
like 108 different ways of transcending. Yeah, and that's a discovery process. You know,

01:35:03.040 --> 01:35:07.560
I'm not a Buddha and I'm not as wise as all of that. So it's a discovery process with

01:35:07.560 --> 01:35:12.680
each student, they sometimes find their own path through that too. You had the other side

01:35:12.680 --> 01:35:17.440
of that chart, you had the hindrances side and the enlightenment side. So the other side

01:35:17.440 --> 01:35:24.000
is mindfulness. So mindfulness, investigation. So really need to have a sense of natural

01:35:24.000 --> 01:35:29.900
curiosity and be open with what's happening and then being aware of energy. You do need

01:35:29.900 --> 01:35:34.920
energy. Now, if you're in stagnation, then we need to get things moving, need to get

01:35:34.920 --> 01:35:40.680
things opened up, bring in some fresh air, bring in some water energy, and really move

01:35:40.680 --> 01:35:46.200
energy. You do need energy. And it has to be wholesome energy. It's balanced, like not

01:35:46.200 --> 01:35:48.680
too tight, too loose.

01:35:48.680 --> 01:35:51.600
Finding that middle ground with energy is so important.

01:35:51.600 --> 01:35:54.400
And then right in the middle here is nurturing contentment.

01:35:54.400 --> 01:35:59.920
A lot of people don't realize that when they're sitting on a bench waiting for the bus, just

01:35:59.920 --> 01:36:00.920
enjoy that.

01:36:00.920 --> 01:36:02.840
And you feel like, "Ugh!"

01:36:02.840 --> 01:36:04.440
Doesn't make the bus come any faster.

01:36:04.440 --> 01:36:05.440
Right!

01:36:05.440 --> 01:36:06.440
When is it going to get here?

01:36:06.440 --> 01:36:07.440
When is it going to get here?

01:36:07.440 --> 01:36:08.440
You know, just enjoy.

01:36:08.440 --> 01:36:09.440
Yeah.

01:36:09.440 --> 01:36:12.040
There are so many moments throughout the day.

01:36:12.040 --> 01:36:15.280
Maybe have a nice conversation with somebody who's sitting on the bench with you.

01:36:15.280 --> 01:36:20.600
Yes, yes, I met a beautiful woman once who really helped me on the bus stop.

01:36:20.600 --> 01:36:21.600
She was beautiful.

01:36:21.600 --> 01:36:23.560
She really gave me advice.

01:36:23.560 --> 01:36:26.480
She was like 40 years older than me at the time.

01:36:26.480 --> 01:36:27.480
She was so nice.

01:36:27.480 --> 01:36:29.480
Yeah, we can pay attention.

01:36:29.480 --> 01:36:31.860
And then the next thing is tranquility.

01:36:31.860 --> 01:36:37.880
How can you build more tranquility into your life, more peace, more simplicity, and then

01:36:37.880 --> 01:36:43.340
feeling the tranquility as you settle into meditation, you feel that sense of inner peace

01:36:43.340 --> 01:36:49.180
and calm and letting that arise, those feelings of delight, like you said when you enjoyed

01:36:49.180 --> 01:36:50.860
meditation, letting that arise.

01:36:50.860 --> 01:36:52.100
Yes, blissful.

01:36:52.100 --> 01:36:56.020
For some people it arises for a few seconds and they're like, "What's that?"

01:36:56.020 --> 01:36:58.300
They're not used to it, you know, like, "What?

01:36:58.300 --> 01:36:59.580
What just happened?

01:36:59.580 --> 01:37:00.980
That was nice.

01:37:00.980 --> 01:37:01.980
Oh!"

01:37:01.980 --> 01:37:03.540
You can deepen in that.

01:37:03.540 --> 01:37:08.460
You can let that deepen and you can refresh yourself with that more and more.

01:37:08.460 --> 01:37:11.340
And then that leads you into Samadhi.

01:37:11.340 --> 01:37:15.340
That leads you into deep samadhi and then that leads you to equanimity.

01:37:15.340 --> 01:37:21.660
And equanimity is that wonderful harmonious balance within that's just right here, right

01:37:21.660 --> 01:37:22.820
here.

01:37:22.820 --> 01:37:24.500
And we don't realize it.

01:37:24.500 --> 01:37:29.460
I didn't know until I really got into Buddhist practice that when you're practicing meditation,

01:37:29.460 --> 01:37:31.420
these hindrances are at bay.

01:37:31.420 --> 01:37:32.540
They're relaxed.

01:37:32.540 --> 01:37:33.780
They're not there.

01:37:33.780 --> 01:37:35.960
And so then the mind is free.

01:37:35.960 --> 01:37:44.740
It's free to just really be present with these beautiful states of being, delight, joy, peace.

01:37:44.740 --> 01:37:50.780
These other states are available to us and you don't need any drugs.

01:37:50.780 --> 01:37:54.700
You don't need any drugs, they're like perfectly here and available.

01:37:54.700 --> 01:37:59.520
It's amazing to me, well, if so many people knew about this and they could just take their

01:37:59.520 --> 01:38:04.380
time and go slow and be gentle and develop this more and more as part of their life,

01:38:04.380 --> 01:38:05.380
it would help the whole world.

01:38:05.380 --> 01:38:09.540
And we've all got it within us. It's like I sometimes say it's like we've all won the lottery

01:38:09.540 --> 01:38:15.880
But most of us have the winning ticket in a sock drawer, and we don't realize we've won and we're begging on the street

01:38:15.880 --> 01:38:18.360
You know what we're actually multi millionaires, right?

01:38:18.360 --> 01:38:20.660
exactly

01:38:20.660 --> 01:38:26.640
Just flying here. Oh my isn't it. What is that saying Kermit the Frog times fun when you're having flies?

01:38:31.580 --> 01:38:38.080
Yeah, so this has been a delightful couple of hours. I've really enjoyed talking to you and getting to know you better and

01:38:38.080 --> 01:38:41.480
you really radiate what you talk about and

01:38:41.480 --> 01:38:45.020
Not an ounce of phoniness in you

01:38:45.020 --> 01:38:47.060
Appreciate it

01:38:47.060 --> 01:38:51.740
so I'll be putting up a page on that gap with a link to your website and

01:38:51.740 --> 01:38:55.940
Anything else you want me to link to like you said this sub stack thing or something?

01:38:55.940 --> 01:38:58.860
I can link to that make sure I have everything I need to link to and

01:38:59.460 --> 01:39:04.700
And people can go there and get in touch, get on a mailing list if you have one, or organize

01:39:04.700 --> 01:39:07.640
to have classes with you, or whatever.

01:39:07.640 --> 01:39:08.640
Thank you so much.

01:39:08.640 --> 01:39:13.940
I have a Substack newsletter, Constance Casey on Substack.

01:39:13.940 --> 01:39:19.420
That's where most people sign up to know about my events and classes and things like that.

01:39:19.420 --> 01:39:20.420
Yeah.

01:39:20.420 --> 01:39:23.860
So I hope you get a nice back-gap bump, as we call it.

01:39:23.860 --> 01:39:25.140
Thank you.

01:39:25.140 --> 01:39:27.140
May this be a benefit to all beings.

01:39:27.140 --> 01:39:30.140
Yeah, well that's the idea for all this.

01:39:30.140 --> 01:39:40.140
So thanks Constance and thank you to your husband and your sons and everybody who has been supporting you and enabling you to make the wonderful progress that you've made.

01:39:40.140 --> 01:39:47.140
Yeah, the apparent me is made that's here, that's grateful, that's so grateful for all of the support.

01:39:47.140 --> 01:39:52.860
Good. Alrighty. Well, thanks to those who've been listening or watching. And there's an

01:39:52.860 --> 01:39:58.340
upcoming interviews page on datgap.com so you can see who we've got scheduled. We usually

01:39:58.340 --> 01:40:02.180
only schedule about a month in advance, but you can always take a look at that. And then

01:40:02.180 --> 01:40:06.420
of course, check out all the other menus on datgap.com. Like if you'd like to be notified

01:40:06.420 --> 01:40:11.660
by email whenever there's a new interview, sign up for that or subscribe to the YouTube

01:40:11.660 --> 01:40:16.460
channel and YouTube will notify you and so on. You guys know how to do this kind of stuff.

01:40:16.460 --> 01:40:18.460
Let's check out what we have to offer.

01:40:18.460 --> 01:40:22.820
Yeah, I think it's really great that you have all this variety and that you're really encouraging.

01:40:22.820 --> 01:40:24.940
I feel like you're like an awakening doula.

01:40:24.940 --> 01:40:27.700
Oh, yeah, doula is like a birth person, right?

01:40:27.700 --> 01:40:29.300
Or no, a death person.

01:40:29.300 --> 01:40:30.300
They have death doulas also.

01:40:30.300 --> 01:40:32.820
They have birth doulas and death doulas now.

01:40:32.820 --> 01:40:33.820
Yeah.

01:40:33.820 --> 01:40:38.980
Like an awakening doula and bringing all of these voices together and giving this voice

01:40:38.980 --> 01:40:41.500
to let people know that there are these options.

01:40:41.500 --> 01:40:43.700
Yeah, maybe I'm a yenta.

01:40:43.700 --> 01:40:45.820
Remember Fiddler on the Roof?

01:40:45.820 --> 01:40:47.820
Oh, that's right.

01:40:47.820 --> 01:40:51.820
Yeah, you know, I love playing that kind of role.

01:40:51.820 --> 01:40:55.820
So, thanks to you, thanks to those who have been listening or watching,

01:40:55.820 --> 01:40:57.820
and we'll see you for the next one.

01:40:57.820 --> 01:40:58.820
Okay, bye-bye.

01:40:58.820 --> 01:40:59.820
Bye.

01:40:59.820 --> 01:41:23.420
Thank you.