WEBVTT

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[Music]

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Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump.

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My name is Rick Archer.

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Buddha at the Gas Pump is an ongoing series of conversations with spiritually awakening

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people.

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We've done nearly 700 of them now over the past 14 years.

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If this is new to you and you'd like to watch previous ones, we've got your work

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cut out for you because there's nearly 700 of them.

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They're about two hours each, but you can check out all the previous ones by going to

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batgap.com, B-A-T-G-A-P, and looking under the past interviews menu.

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And while you're at it, check out under the content search menu and you'll find a couple

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interesting things, one of which is an AI chatbot now that incorporates all the transcripts of all

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the interviews. 20,000 files all together. I've uploaded books and video transcripts and so on.

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It's getting more and more interesting and we're just writing a guide to it which I'll be notifying

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people about pretty soon. A lot of that work has been made possible through the assistance of

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volunteers. So if you would like to volunteer to do something, primarily as a transcript proofreader,

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get in touch and we'll set you up. Yeah, some people really enjoy it and I've transcribed quite

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a few of them. All of this is made possible through the support of appreciative listeners

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and viewers. So if you appreciate it and would like to help support it, there are PayPal buttons

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on every page of the website and a page which explains some alternatives to PayPal. My guest

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Yesterday is Mary Terhune. I'm not going to read her bio because she's a very smooth,

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not, I don't know, get the right adjective here, she speaks very well, and she's written

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a very interesting book called Out of the Blue. I'm just going to let her introduce

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herself in a minute, but it's basically an account of her spiritual experiences of awakening,

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revelation and transformation over the years.

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And it has a forward by Raymond Moody, MD, PhD.

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And also there's a really nice reading of one of the chapters by Wayne Dyer, who most

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of you are probably aware of.

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Anyway, Mary got in touch a while back, and I really enjoyed listening to her whole book,

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and I'm going to enjoy talking to her, and I think you will enjoy it, too.

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So hi, Mary, welcome.

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Thank you Rick for having me on your program and you wanted me to introduce

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myself. So a little bit about my background, I trained as an RN, worked in

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the field for about 15 years, went back to college. I thought I was going to

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become a clinical psychologist. Instead I entered the field of massage therapy

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because when I needed healing for myself I found it so effective that I entered a

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school and did that for three years. After that I became a Reiki master and after

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that in the 90s I became a homeopath. So I've been on this path of healing for

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many many years but it all began my path really switched when in 1984 I had a

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crisis, a life crisis, and I lost everything that I had earned. I lost all

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my retirement money and found myself a single woman with an 11-year-old daughter.

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I was in debt and I was beside myself with anxieties and I felt that I had failed because

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I didn't get a lawyer to protect myself and I was standing in the living room, my daughter

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was visiting her father at the time, and I was standing in the living room so bereft

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and feeling like such a failure that I began to sob and I couldn't think one more horrible

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thought about myself.

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It's just my mind could not take any more anxiety and it just stopped.

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And when it stopped, this space opened up and through the window poured this light and this

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light began speaking to me.

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The literal window of your house?

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Window of my house in the living room.

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Meanwhile, I have no context for any of this, as I didn't know anything about spiritual

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paths, I didn't know anything about spiritual teachers, nothing about yoga, I knew nothing.

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I was stuck in sort of the ego mind, just living life and feeling pretty miserable.

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And when this light entered, it began speaking to me.

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And when this light began speaking to me, I recognized the voice, and the voice was that

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of the mystic Jesus.

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Now some people say, "How did you know it was him?"

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And all I can say is, "You know when you know."

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And he began speaking to me, the seven revelations and the first revelation.

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My attitude is, I give everybody the benefit of the doubt, and I also take everything with

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a grain of salt, you know, and proportions vary.

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Sometimes it's all salt, sometimes it's very little salt, and I really believe the thing.

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And I've spoken to a number of people who've had interactions with what they feel to be

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Jesus and as far as I know, it very well may be Jesus.

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Who am I to say?

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He's a busy guy, actually.

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He gets around.

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Like Gina Lake, a friend of mine, she's written a whole bunch of books where Jesus has basically

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dictated stuff to her and the books are really profound.

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So why not?

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But is there anything else you can say that might just assuage the doubts of someone who

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is a little bit more skeptical than me?

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No, there's nothing more I can say because...

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If you were a Hindu, do you think you might have interpreted it as Krishna or something

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different?

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I don't know.

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In the end, I feel all these mystics belong to the world and they don't belong to any

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particular religion.

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That was my experience with him.

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I had been brought up a Catholic, but I had long left the dogma of it and was just living

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life in the egoic structure.

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And I wasn't happy, that's for sure.

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All I can say is when it happens to you, that's when you know, because no one can tell you.

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Nobody can tell anybody anything.

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You have to experience these things for yourself.

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The first thing he spoke about was forgiveness.

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And he said, "Now do you see that true forgiveness is self-forgiveness?"

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And when he spoke those words, he gave me the experience of self-forgiveness.

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And I understood that we have to be compassionate with ourselves on this earth plane because

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we all go through these tests, this life.

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We have karmas we have to live out and blaming somebody else for it isn't going to work because

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it's going to make you miserable in the end.

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And so self-forgiveness, he said, was the true forgiveness.

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It isn't up to us to forgive someone else or someone to forgive me.

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I have to forgive myself for everything.

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And it takes that burden off of people than just to forgive yourself for anything that

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you have to go through in life because it's not an easy task on this earth to come back

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to your true self.

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I mean, you go through a lot.

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So he spoke about that, self-forgiveness, and he worked his way...

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So let's take an example of that.

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So there's this guy on the news today who had killed four kids in Michigan with a gun, and

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he was expressing contrition and remorse for his behavior.

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So let's say you're him and you're going to be in jail for the rest of your life now.

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How would that work in terms of his inner psychology, forgiving himself?

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Would it be like, "All right, I was a stupid kid, I shouldn't have done it, and I'm forgiven"?

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Or do you think it's really a kind of an ongoing thing that might take a lifetime of introspection

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and deep self-exploration to really get to the root of why he behaved that way and resolve

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it once and for all.

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Barbara: You have to have some sort of an inner awakening to your divine nature and

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by doing so, the divine nature of everyone as one and that takes a lot.

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Who knows that may happen for that person in this lifetime or, you know, a hundred lifetimes

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from now.

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you think that true, thorough, deep self-forgiveness can't really happen without some kind of inner

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awakening? Yeah, you have to have some sort of inner understanding of yourself and the divine

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nature of things. It takes a lot of inner contemplation. So, it's not just like an

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affirmation of some kind of... It's not a mental, it's just not an idea, a construct. It's an inner

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experience that's very, very deep and profound.

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And how do you evoke that experience? Let's say this kid in jail now, how could he

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do that? Would he need a spiritual teacher? Could he get it from reading books?

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Is it voluntary to have one of these things?

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Who knows how it comes? Grace is part of the construct of our divine nature.

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Who knows how that happens and how it comes? How did it happen in my life? I don't know.

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maybe it's just time for me to wake up. It's a mystery. It is a very deep mystery.

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Pete That's an interesting point,

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which we can discuss more later after you've gone through these seven points and everything. But,

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you know, the question of can one do something to bring about the kinds of experiences that you're

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going to describe today? Or is it just like divine grace and you're lucky if you have them, you know,

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too bad if you don't. Mary Everybody has divine grace.

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Okay, it's part of our constructs. When it is time to happen for us, that's a mystery. I don't know.

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How did I wake up? I don't know. Well, you were doing spiritual practice.

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I wasn't doing any spiritual practice. Not in 84. No, not in 84. I knew nothing about anything.

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And when someone told me I entered a spiritual path, I had to ask them what a spiritual path was.

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I didn't even know what it was. So, the mystery of when it's time for you to wake up to your inner

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divinity is itself a mystery. I don't know. I just don't know.

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Pete: Do you think that past life spiritual work tends to predispose one to have this sort of thing?

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Susan: I would say over the years that that's true. And especially when I met my spiritual teacher,

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and she said we're coming together again to complete something,

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and showed me that I had been a monk of hers in a past life. And then when you go through these

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deep, deep spiritual experiences, you do have recurrences or memories of having your past lives.

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And clearly, I had a lot of past lives, not only as a monk, but as a nun. And that comes to you as

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you walk your spiritual path, whatever it is. And some people, it happens to and they remember,

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and some people don't, but that's, you know, it's all a divine mystery. So much is a divine mystery.

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Pete Yeah, I've never had any,

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well, a couple of things, but not much in terms of vivid recollections of past lives. But I have

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this deep conviction that I have had them and that I've probably been a spiritual seeker in many of

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them. Mary Certainly. And then he when he told me everything that I needed to know in that moment

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about forgiveness, he moved on to judgment. And he said, "Now do you understand what judgment is all

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about?" And then he gave me the experience that when you judge someone else in a critical way,

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because we are all one, you are judging yourself. Now that's a very esoteric, deep contemplation.

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It doesn't mean you don't have discernment and don't hang around with people who bring you down.

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but when it comes to judgment and wasting your precious energy on criticizing others, just for

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the sake of criticizing them, for the egoic joy of blaming other people, that is not going to help you

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and it comes back at you. So you mean you shouldn't hang out on Facebook and call people

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idiots for voting for the other candidate? Well, it's probably not. It's kind of a waste of your

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time. It doesn't do anything for you, you know. It makes you feel better in an instant, but then what

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does that do, really? You're putting that out in the universe, it doesn't help. It doesn't mean you

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don't have discernment and make good decisions for yourself that leads you to your true inner state.

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I think some people get addicted to the hormones that they're associated with, anger and negativity

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and so on. Just like some people like to watch a lot of horror movies or they like to go on scary

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roller coasters because of the adrenaline or whatever, but there's a certain biochemistry,

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I think, to being argumentative with people. And there's so much of that online these days,

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people get addicted to it.

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Dr. Anneke Vandenbroek Yeah, well, it keeps the egoic

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construct in place. And in the end, does that really satisfy your life? Not for me.

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You know, I can't speak for others, but he made that clear. And then when I understood that,

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then he moved on to the Bible and he said, "Now do you understand how they misuse my words in the

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Bible?" And when he said that, I could feel his sorrow in my heart. I felt it. And I felt so sad

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that his message was understood and used against people to make them feel less than,

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even speaking about this now, so many years later, it brings tears.

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Yeah, and I could feel that, and that's really all that he said about that.

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That was enough for me to understand never to use words like that of mystics and masters to

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hurt somebody else, to put somebody else down. That was very powerful in that moment.

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- Before you go on to the next one, let me ask you a quick question. So you mentioned that this

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light came in through the window and this voice started speaking to you and you knew it to

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be the voice of Jesus.

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Was there any visual thing associated with it or was it just a voice?

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Aside from the light, did you see a figure of Jesus?

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Elaine: Well, it was the feeling that happened inside of me as well because he initiated,

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after he spoke these seven revelations, he initiated an awakening of the Kundalini in

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my body and all the centers.

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I could feel all the centers spinning.

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Wow.

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And I knew I had heard a little bit about Reiki prior to that, but I didn't really know what

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it was.

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And I'm like, oh my God, there are these centers that are awakening and they started spinning.

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So he was my first Kundalini experience.

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He was my first Kundalini master.

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And of course, I had no context for this, except that I knew that this felt true, that

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this was the most important thing that could ever happen to anyone because my soul knew

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the truth even if I was not very connected with it prior to that.

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But when it happens to you and you get plugged into it, you come to know yourself or you

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come to know that truth.

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So as I began to speak, these centers started to awaken inside of me and I felt this tremendous

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love that started to pour through me.

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He went on to speak on weight and emotions.

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Now you can imagine like, why is Jesus talking about weight and emotions of all the things

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in the world that he would talk about?

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But I think it was because I was in the healing arts and he wanted me to understand this from

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that point of view.

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And he explained that the energies that are stuck here, I didn't know a word for it then,

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consciousness, but I didn't know the word consciousness then, that these emotions stuck

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and consciousness have an impact on your physical body and that you have to deal with your emotions

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and your mind, your feelings, because that impacts you and it impacts how your systems work.

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So basically, I think that's why he told me this. And of course, now all the chakras are spinning

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in my body. All of them are spinning. Not this one yet. That came later.

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You're pointing to the crown chakra.

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The crown chakra. Not yet.

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But that all started spinning and I started feeling this immense presence and love.

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By the way, I should add that when the light came into the room,

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I had to lay down because it was so powerful.

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I couldn't stand up in its presence.

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So I was laying down on the couch as all of this was happening to me and unfolding in me.

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After that, he then spoke about disease.

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And again, why disease?

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Because I was part of the healing path and I would 14 years later come to understand this

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on a deeper level.

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And he spoke about disease and that the reason that disease happens is that we have stuck

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emotions.

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And when we have stuck emotions and traumas that aren't resolved completely, they have

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an impact on the physical body.

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I'll talk about this later, specifically about what happened to me and my thyroid years later

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how I came to really understand this better. So he said, the

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disease occurred because of stuck traumas. He didn't use the

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word trauma, then he said stuck emotions later, I would come to

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understand traumas. And that has a tremendous impact on your

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whole being, your glandular system, your cardiovascular

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system, all your systems, and that disease had to be resolved

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on that level. First, the issues had to be resolved on that level

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first so you didn't end up having to experience what we call disease, which later I came to

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understand as disharmony. Now, this is as much as I could understand. When he finished with that,

00:18:06.920 --> 00:18:13.080
he spoke about, and I have notes because this is a lot for me to remember, he spoke about aging.

00:18:13.080 --> 00:18:19.480
And again, it's because I was in the healing arts, and this is why he spoke about aging. So,

00:18:19.480 --> 00:18:26.280
I could understand that aging was really because the mind and emotions and body, there was so much

00:18:26.280 --> 00:18:33.560
friction in your mind that negative thoughts wears you out. It wears your system out. It wears out

00:18:33.560 --> 00:18:40.120
how everything functions properly. Your energy can't flow completely. We call it stress, but it's

00:18:40.120 --> 00:18:46.280
really the mind and emotions and the thoughts, the discursive mind that's constantly berating you,

00:18:46.840 --> 00:18:52.520
putting you down, putting others down, you know, just this negativity that is this background that

00:18:52.520 --> 00:18:59.480
seems to have a life of its own that wears you out. And when I understood that, then he moved on

00:18:59.480 --> 00:19:04.840
to the ego. He didn't say, "Now do you understand the ego?" He didn't come at it from that point of

00:19:04.840 --> 00:19:14.120
view. He impressed me with this understanding that the ego is a mental construct. Later, I would call

00:19:14.120 --> 00:19:22.120
it a case of mistaken identity. That's what I would call it later, but I didn't have those words for it

00:19:22.120 --> 00:19:29.080
at that time. He just said that you're not your thoughts, you're not the job you do, you're not

00:19:29.080 --> 00:19:35.080
a man or a woman, you're not a gender, you're beyond that. But of course, to understand all of

00:19:35.080 --> 00:19:42.280
this was a lot for me to take in and try to assimilate. Later, I would understand that the ego

00:19:42.280 --> 00:19:47.800
it's just a case of mistaken identity. You identify as a body, you identify with your thoughts,

00:19:47.800 --> 00:19:52.520
like they're so important, and you identify with your mental constructs,

00:19:52.520 --> 00:19:58.440
your ideas of how you view the world, how you view yourself, how you view other people, and

00:19:58.440 --> 00:20:07.000
that's the ego. I understood that and I understood that not only did I suffer from this, but everybody

00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:15.160
suffered in the egoic construct. And it gave me not only compassion for myself, but compassion for

00:20:15.160 --> 00:20:23.640
others. And basically, when that ended, that was the ending of his instructions to me. But now he

00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:30.760
was fully enlivening my Kundalini so that the chakras were spinning. And I'm feeling this

00:20:30.760 --> 00:20:37.320
incredible bliss, this incredible love. And I'm like, "Why didn't anybody ever tell me about this?

00:20:37.320 --> 00:20:42.120
Nobody's talking about this. This is the most important thing in the world.

00:20:42.120 --> 00:20:48.120
How come I wasn't told? Nobody's told me this. How did I know?" And at that point, then he

00:20:48.120 --> 00:20:56.120
took his energy and removed a veil from my third eye. And when he removed that veil,

00:20:56.120 --> 00:21:03.160
I felt this immense love just pour from me. At that point, there was also a saying that came

00:21:03.160 --> 00:21:10.040
into my mind, and the saying was, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle

00:21:10.040 --> 00:21:15.880
than it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven." And when I heard that, it's like it was

00:21:15.880 --> 00:21:23.080
impressed on me. I understood by rich man, it didn't mean riches necessarily, but it meant

00:21:23.080 --> 00:21:30.440
your thoughts, you know, holding on to constructs, weighted down with all these thoughts and ideas.

00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:36.920
And of course, taking all of this in was very difficult. But the overwhelming feeling was

00:21:36.920 --> 00:21:44.760
there was so much love pouring out of me and envy. I was just an absolute bliss, which was a reprieve

00:21:44.760 --> 00:21:50.440
from the anxiety that I was feeling. Oh, there was another song that played. And it was like,

00:21:50.440 --> 00:21:55.080
Sweet little Jesus child, they had you born in a manger.

00:21:55.080 --> 00:21:56.440
And that was going through me too.

00:21:56.440 --> 00:22:00.360
Sweet little holy child, they didn't know who you were.

00:22:00.360 --> 00:22:03.560
And I understood that we don't know who each other is.

00:22:03.560 --> 00:22:06.520
That child is in our heart.

00:22:06.520 --> 00:22:09.640
And when you hurt another, that's what you're hurting.

00:22:09.640 --> 00:22:11.320
That we really are one.

00:22:11.320 --> 00:22:13.800
And all of this just, you know, stirred me.

00:22:13.800 --> 00:22:17.880
And even just talking about it now really stirs me, kind of makes me tear up.

00:22:18.520 --> 00:22:23.080
At some point, when he was finished, all these instructions,

00:22:23.080 --> 00:22:28.760
finished awakening my Kundalini, which I had no idea what would happen to me afterwards, of course,

00:22:28.760 --> 00:22:31.880
he withdrew his energy out through the window.

00:22:31.880 --> 00:22:38.200
And here I was in this state of bliss and wonder and awe,

00:22:38.200 --> 00:22:43.160
and I felt like I needed to go to the backyard, open the door and get some fresh air.

00:22:43.160 --> 00:22:46.820
And so I went to the back door, opened the door,

00:22:46.820 --> 00:22:50.760
and what I saw, because he had removed something

00:22:50.760 --> 00:22:52.460
from my hair, right, remember?

00:22:52.460 --> 00:22:55.980
What I saw was packets of light everywhere.

00:22:55.980 --> 00:22:59.180
I looked at the tree, and there were packets of light

00:22:59.180 --> 00:23:01.460
glimmering over it, almost like a Christmas tree.

00:23:01.460 --> 00:23:02.860
And I didn't understand then

00:23:02.860 --> 00:23:05.220
that it was photonic packets of light.

00:23:05.220 --> 00:23:10.220
And that light was alive with love and omniscience.

00:23:10.600 --> 00:23:18.760
And I understood that everything that we see is created from those packets of light.

00:23:18.760 --> 00:23:24.520
And there was so much love emanating that I burst into tears and I said out loud,

00:23:24.520 --> 00:23:30.520
"Oh my God, this is paradise, but we have made it into something else."

00:23:30.520 --> 00:23:34.560
And I felt we had made it into a hell for each other,

00:23:34.560 --> 00:23:42.560
when really this is paradise if we awaken to that inside ourselves.

00:23:42.560 --> 00:23:48.060
And something else got awakened within me and it was poetry.

00:23:48.060 --> 00:23:53.160
I started writing poetry and I wrote a poem about this particular moment

00:23:53.160 --> 00:23:55.160
and to the Kalilini. It's very short.

00:23:55.160 --> 00:24:00.560
I'll recite it now. Chakra one, chakra two, chakra three and four,

00:24:00.560 --> 00:24:03.360
up the ladder, down the ladder.

00:24:03.560 --> 00:24:05.040
Can you tell me more?

00:24:05.040 --> 00:24:07.400
Chakra five, six and seven,

00:24:07.400 --> 00:24:09.760
when your consciousness is pure,

00:24:09.760 --> 00:24:14.760
you will find that earth's a heaven waiting at your door.

00:24:14.760 --> 00:24:19.920
And so I was in so much love and so much joy and bliss.

00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:23.080
So then what happened, right?

00:24:23.080 --> 00:24:25.980
Afterwards, I was working at that time

00:24:25.980 --> 00:24:30.640
in research administration at a very big Boston hospital.

00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:31.960
I had to go to work.

00:24:31.960 --> 00:24:33.660
I didn't want to go to work.

00:24:33.660 --> 00:24:41.700
I wanted to sit like Eckhart Tolle on a park bench and watch the phantasmagoria of life.

00:24:41.700 --> 00:24:46.620
Just watch it and feel that love and let, just let me be in, you know, swim in this

00:24:46.620 --> 00:24:49.840
love, this amazing bliss.

00:24:49.840 --> 00:24:52.060
But I couldn't, I had to go to work.

00:24:52.060 --> 00:24:59.060
And it was very difficult because I was supposed to be working with numbers, statistics, with

00:24:59.060 --> 00:25:05.540
work. And when I sat down to look at the papers and do the work, I couldn't do it. I couldn't

00:25:05.540 --> 00:25:12.260
make numbers work. I couldn't function. I was in bliss. What can I say, you know?

00:25:12.260 --> 00:25:18.100
And I didn't have anybody to talk to. I had never heard of any of this. I didn't know what

00:25:18.100 --> 00:25:24.580
consciousness was. And I had no context for it. But what I was left with was I wanted to meet

00:25:24.580 --> 00:25:31.460
somebody on earth, not just the mystic Jesus visiting me, which was fine, but I needed a

00:25:31.460 --> 00:25:36.340
teacher on earth. I need someone who could give me a context for this. I had no context for any of this.

00:25:36.340 --> 00:25:41.460
Pete: Sounds like you knew some because you knew what chakras were in order to write that poem.

00:25:41.460 --> 00:25:47.300
Barbara: Well, that's because he awakened it in me. I mean, I had heard something about chakras,

00:25:47.300 --> 00:25:51.220
you know, I heard it and I'm like, what's that anyway? You know, is that true that there's light?

00:25:51.220 --> 00:25:57.460
what light? What are you talking about? So he gave me the full experience of it, but I had no context

00:25:57.460 --> 00:26:03.380
to understand why this light was pouring through me and out of me and everywhere I looked all I

00:26:03.380 --> 00:26:08.020
saw was love and when I looked at people all I saw was love and I was in love with everybody and

00:26:08.020 --> 00:26:13.620
everything and everywhere and I remember having to go to work standing in an elevator going up

00:26:13.620 --> 00:26:19.220
the elevator to my office and there were doctors standing in there and one of them was making fun

00:26:21.220 --> 00:26:24.020
I remember, oh, you know, that's a bunch of nonsense,

00:26:24.020 --> 00:26:26.580
all this energy and stuff, that's a bunch of crap,

00:26:26.580 --> 00:26:28.300
and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and he was going on,

00:26:28.300 --> 00:26:32.140
and I'm thinking, if you only understood what I understood,

00:26:32.140 --> 00:26:33.580
you wouldn't say that.

00:26:33.580 --> 00:26:36.100
And so I remember, you know, getting off the elevator

00:26:36.100 --> 00:26:37.260
and just watching people,

00:26:37.260 --> 00:26:41.620
the way they treated each other in an unkind way

00:26:41.620 --> 00:26:44.860
and not even really noticing each other.

00:26:44.860 --> 00:26:45.860
It kind of broke my heart.

00:26:45.860 --> 00:26:48.100
It's like, don't you know who you are?

00:26:48.100 --> 00:26:50.180
And of course I had no understanding

00:26:50.180 --> 00:26:56.820
how to integrate all of this and I didn't understand why we didn't know about it, why no one spoke of

00:26:56.820 --> 00:27:02.580
it and I had no one to talk to. So I was thinking in my mind, well maybe if I met someone who

00:27:02.580 --> 00:27:08.260
understood Einstein's theory of relativity, energy equals mass times light, then they could help me

00:27:08.260 --> 00:27:12.980
understand this. You know, what happened to this energy and all this light and my physical body

00:27:12.980 --> 00:27:18.020
and all of this, you know. So I had this in my mind and I also had in my mind, I need to meet

00:27:18.020 --> 00:27:25.220
someone who has a clear pair of eyes. That's what I need to meet. And so I would go to different

00:27:25.220 --> 00:27:32.100
talks by different teachers and I would be like, "No, that's not it. No, that's not. Nope, that's

00:27:32.100 --> 00:27:37.540
not right." And they would say things like, "No, that's not right. That's not right." Until one day,

00:27:37.540 --> 00:27:45.140
two years later, 1986, I went to a talk at a place called Interface at the time in Watertown, Mass.

00:27:45.940 --> 00:27:50.100
it was a panel of speakers, they were going to be talking about energy medicine. I go,

00:27:50.100 --> 00:27:55.300
"Yes, energy medicine, that's up my alley, you know, energy, they're going to talk about that."

00:27:55.300 --> 00:28:02.420
So one after another stood up and, "No, that's not right. No, that's not right." Until one person

00:28:02.420 --> 00:28:08.980
stood up and he said, first thing he said was, "E equals mc squared, Einstein's theory of

00:28:08.980 --> 00:28:15.540
relativity. That's right. I have to talk to him." And so he turned out to be an energy healer,

00:28:15.540 --> 00:28:22.180
he called himself, and I ran up to him afterwards and I said, "I have to see you. I have to make

00:28:22.180 --> 00:28:26.420
an appointment. Let's make an appointment right now." So I did make an appointment. I went to

00:28:26.420 --> 00:28:31.700
his office. When I walked into his office, he said, "I'll be right back. I have to go get something."

00:28:31.700 --> 00:28:37.380
So I said, "Fine." And I noticed this picture on the wall, and it was a picture of this person,

00:28:37.380 --> 00:28:44.820
a woman. And I looked into her eyes. Those are the eyes. That's the one. And he walks into the room,

00:28:44.820 --> 00:28:51.700
And I said, "Who is that anyway?" She told me her name. Because prior to him walking into the room,

00:28:51.700 --> 00:28:58.100
when I looked into her eyes, the picture came alive and began to speak to me. And this sounds

00:28:58.100 --> 00:29:04.260
strange, but when it happens to you, it's not so strange. And she said, "We're coming together again

00:29:04.260 --> 00:29:09.700
to complete something." And she showed me this little movie clip that I had been among of hers

00:29:09.700 --> 00:29:16.020
in the past life and that for political reasons or whatever we got separated so I couldn't complete

00:29:16.020 --> 00:29:20.900
my journey. And I had no idea who this person was when he walked back, the healer walked back

00:29:20.900 --> 00:29:26.180
into the room. I said, "Who is that? Is she a monk?" And he goes, "Yes, she's going to be in

00:29:26.180 --> 00:29:31.620
Boston in a few weeks. You want to meet her?" Heck yes, I do. And the hour-long session,

00:29:31.620 --> 00:29:36.180
little did I know at that time when I looked into her eyes, I had also received another

00:29:36.180 --> 00:29:41.460
Kundalini awakening, like I did from Jesus. And it was supposed to be an hour-long session of

00:29:41.460 --> 00:29:47.140
his energy and using his breath and moving energy and all of that. It turned into a six-hour event

00:29:47.140 --> 00:29:53.940
where the most amazing experiences happened. All my meridians opened with light pouring through,

00:29:53.940 --> 00:29:59.540
light coming out of my hands, out of my feet. And I thought, "God's here. I wonder why.

00:29:59.540 --> 00:30:04.420
Wonder what this is all about." And then I thought, "Ah, I remember pictures of Jesus and

00:30:04.420 --> 00:30:09.860
pictures of Mary, they all have light coming out of them. Oh, this is what this light is. That's

00:30:09.860 --> 00:30:17.060
what they heal with. And there was so much that happened at that time. He told me that this child

00:30:17.060 --> 00:30:22.420
that I gave up for adoption when I was 19 and unmarried in the 60s, and that's what was expected

00:30:22.420 --> 00:30:27.700
of you. I was in my third year as a nurse. You know, there was no such thing as single mothers

00:30:27.700 --> 00:30:33.140
back then. And you were expected to give your child up. This is the cultural norm. And you didn't dare

00:30:33.140 --> 00:30:37.240
stray from that because there was no support for you. So he said, I'm not

00:30:37.240 --> 00:30:40.960
supposed to tell you this, but your daughter has contacted me and told me

00:30:40.960 --> 00:30:46.520
she's not mad at you, that she loves you. And so I started sobbing, he started

00:30:46.520 --> 00:30:52.440
sobbing, and it was just the most amazing healing. And years later, I would be

00:30:52.440 --> 00:30:54.080
reunited with my daughter.

00:30:54.080 --> 00:30:56.920
Do you mean esoterically your daughter contacted him?

00:30:56.920 --> 00:30:57.420
Yes.

00:30:57.420 --> 00:30:58.680
Psychically or something?

00:30:58.680 --> 00:30:59.180
Psychically.

00:30:59.180 --> 00:30:59.680
Right.

00:30:59.680 --> 00:31:02.680
He goes, you know, I'm not supposed to tell you this, but I'm going to tell you this.

00:31:02.680 --> 00:31:07.680
And he told me that and at the end, I mean, I was sobbing, just sobbing.

00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:09.680
He was sobbing, I was sobbing.

00:31:09.680 --> 00:31:16.680
It was like this immense healing and I didn't understand that that's what happens when the Kundalini is awakened powerfully.

00:31:16.680 --> 00:31:25.680
The Kundalini, this spiritual energy in you that clears out all of your life issues and karmas when it gets awakened.

00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:31.920
awakened because that's all connected with your ego structure and all of that that you're held

00:31:31.920 --> 00:31:39.280
on to gets evaporated so that you can have this experience of your divine nature. Yeah. So I

00:31:39.280 --> 00:31:44.800
finally did meet the monk and the monk started talking about the ego and I thought that's just

00:31:44.800 --> 00:31:51.040
what Jesus said about the ego. Wait a minute, what's going on here? You know, I thought this

00:31:51.040 --> 00:31:57.940
This is the teacher that I want to be with, because whatever she has, I want it for me.

00:31:57.940 --> 00:32:00.120
So I didn't look at her as an icon.

00:32:00.120 --> 00:32:06.240
I looked at her as a teacher who could help me discover something in me that I wanted

00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:07.240
so much.

00:32:07.240 --> 00:32:11.120
>> Had her teacher died by this time and she was kind of the main teacher?

00:32:11.120 --> 00:32:12.120
>> Yes.

00:32:12.120 --> 00:32:13.120
>> So you never met her teacher?

00:32:13.120 --> 00:32:15.000
>> No, I never did.

00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:23.720
So in the meantime, between 1984 and meeting this monk, so that was two years of waiting

00:32:23.720 --> 00:32:27.400
to meet somebody, I was having such a difficult time.

00:32:27.400 --> 00:32:31.880
And meanwhile, I graduated from my third year in massage school.

00:32:31.880 --> 00:32:37.360
I had strange interactions with people because I had so much light just pouring out of me

00:32:37.360 --> 00:32:42.560
that in massage school with my peers, I had one woman yell at me.

00:32:42.560 --> 00:32:47.820
And she said, "You have so much light coming out of you, I can't stand it."

00:32:47.820 --> 00:32:50.260
And I didn't know what to do with that.

00:32:50.260 --> 00:32:56.800
It was so difficult and so hard to live in this world, in this state.

00:32:56.800 --> 00:33:00.320
And I had no one to speak to about it.

00:33:00.320 --> 00:33:02.040
That was just not available.

00:33:02.040 --> 00:33:03.440
Consciousness was not a word.

00:33:03.440 --> 00:33:07.360
And certainly if you ever mentioned these things, you'd probably put you in a mental hospital

00:33:07.360 --> 00:33:10.840
and drug you with some drug because you're crazy.

00:33:10.840 --> 00:33:16.120
meantime, here I am at work, I'm trying to function, I still can't function. I have all this life

00:33:16.120 --> 00:33:23.160
pouring out of me, all this love, and I can't function. Eventually, the director realized

00:33:23.160 --> 00:33:28.840
something's happening here, I don't quite understand it, but one day she said to me,

00:33:28.840 --> 00:33:34.280
"Oh, Mary's found the path of love." And I go, "Oh, she feels something from me."

00:33:34.280 --> 00:33:39.880
Although she never directly mentioned it. So she reorganized the office, I was reorganized out

00:33:39.880 --> 00:33:46.760
in a nice way, so I got a little bit of money, you know, in leaving. And meanwhile, all this time,

00:33:46.760 --> 00:33:53.880
in my personal life, I was going through relationships like potato chips. The Kundalini

00:33:53.880 --> 00:34:01.720
was so alive in me, clearing out all the karmas, all the relationships that I had to go through

00:34:01.720 --> 00:34:08.360
in this life, to meet the beginning, clear it out. It was like this tornado that went through my life

00:34:08.360 --> 00:34:14.840
for about eight years. This tornado clearing out my mental emotional state, relationships

00:34:14.840 --> 00:34:18.920
that I would get into and then I would leave because I knew that wasn't right, but yet I had

00:34:18.920 --> 00:34:24.360
to be in it because I now I'm understanding this is karma, but there are no shortcuts.

00:34:24.360 --> 00:34:27.640
So what I'm trying to say. So let me ask a question here. So all these relationships

00:34:27.640 --> 00:34:33.480
are with various men that you had been with in a previous life, I think you're implying

00:34:33.480 --> 00:34:39.720
some men and women, both. Okay. And weren't you kind of creating new karma by having these

00:34:39.720 --> 00:34:47.960
relationships? What it really felt like was, I was having to complete lifetimes from a past life,

00:34:47.960 --> 00:34:54.280
because when I would leave, it wasn't done with malice. It was done with understanding. And I

00:34:54.280 --> 00:34:59.720
would complete that. So I wouldn't leave it so that it was bad, leftover stuff. But it just felt

00:34:59.720 --> 00:35:07.000
like I was cleaning out. Many years later, I would be told that my basic karma in this lifetime was

00:35:07.000 --> 00:35:13.640
with relationships and that I had a lot to clear out with them. So I would just go through them,

00:35:13.640 --> 00:35:20.200
clear it out and not leave a bad feeling, just complete it. And it just happened like a tornado,

00:35:20.200 --> 00:35:25.080
like my emotions were being cleared out, my issues were being cleared out, and every time

00:35:25.640 --> 00:35:28.600
I would feel better, but then again there'll be another storm.

00:35:28.600 --> 00:35:32.840
So when the next one was coming, would you actually think, "All right, well this will

00:35:32.840 --> 00:35:37.800
probably last two weeks, but I'm going to clear out stuff."? No, no, I wasn't that aware. Let's

00:35:37.800 --> 00:35:42.440
put it this way. I was sort of a codependent person, really feeling I needed to be in a

00:35:42.440 --> 00:35:47.640
relationship because I didn't feel strong enough inside myself to not be in a relationship,

00:35:47.640 --> 00:35:53.000
because I enjoy relationships, even though for the past 18 years I haven't. I've been in a

00:35:53.000 --> 00:35:59.400
relationship with just myself. Because at some point that ended and I realized if you're not

00:35:59.400 --> 00:36:05.880
in a serious relationship with yourself, this is just going to continue. And so that just stopped.

00:36:05.880 --> 00:36:11.640
It just stopped. And then I started the real more serious inner journey. Mind you, you know,

00:36:11.640 --> 00:36:16.280
karmas play out in all kinds of ways. Usually it's in relationships and in family systems,

00:36:16.280 --> 00:36:22.520
also in physical diseases that you have weaknesses. And so that played out for me as well.

00:36:22.520 --> 00:36:28.840
But at any rate, to get back to after Jesus and those two-year waiting period, and I left,

00:36:28.840 --> 00:36:35.200
I finally was separated from the hospital, and I left, I had nothing left in my bank account

00:36:35.200 --> 00:36:36.200
at all.

00:36:36.200 --> 00:36:37.600
Your actual, literal bank account.

00:36:37.600 --> 00:36:40.040
You're not talking about your karmic bank account here.

00:36:40.040 --> 00:36:45.360
No, my, well, that's probably less, a little less, but not complete, right?

00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:53.440
And I could go visit my teacher now and there was an initiation that I wanted to initiate

00:36:53.440 --> 00:36:56.040
deeper levels of the Kundalini.

00:36:56.040 --> 00:37:02.040
And in order to go to this, it was going to cost me some money and I would have to travel.

00:37:02.040 --> 00:37:08.800
And I had such faith that I used up the last bit of money in my bank account.

00:37:08.800 --> 00:37:12.960
I didn't have a job yet, but I went and did this.

00:37:12.960 --> 00:37:15.720
I went and did it and I spent everything.

00:37:15.720 --> 00:37:20.080
When I got back from that meeting at a meditation center,

00:37:20.080 --> 00:37:22.960
I opened up the Boston Globe at the time

00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:25.920
and in it there was an advertisement

00:37:25.920 --> 00:37:30.240
looking for a manager for the new office

00:37:30.240 --> 00:37:32.480
at the Space Center at MIT.

00:37:32.480 --> 00:37:36.360
And because I had helped the director of research

00:37:36.360 --> 00:37:40.320
open up our new office where I was in the hospital

00:37:40.320 --> 00:37:42.400
and it became very successful,

00:37:42.400 --> 00:37:45.520
I thought I could do this, I know how to do this, I know how to open it.

00:37:45.520 --> 00:37:48.320
It was the Center for Theoretical Geocosmoplasmic Physics.

00:37:48.320 --> 00:37:54.080
And so I know how to do this, I could do that, and I could get my former boss to give me a

00:37:54.080 --> 00:37:56.020
recommendation which she did.

00:37:56.020 --> 00:37:58.360
And I went in, had the interview and got hired.

00:37:58.360 --> 00:38:02.320
So immediately, my bank account went from zero to something.

00:38:02.320 --> 00:38:08.400
And it was just this leap of faith that I had so much faith in this inner journey that I

00:38:08.400 --> 00:38:11.200
took the leap to do this.

00:38:11.200 --> 00:38:18.180
So it was 1986 that happened and of course, you know, I was going through my different

00:38:18.180 --> 00:38:23.660
life experiences and trying to integrate all of this in my being.

00:38:23.660 --> 00:38:29.900
By now I started reading spiritual texts like the Bhagavad Gita, the Viveka Chudamani, which

00:38:29.900 --> 00:38:30.900
is all about Brahman.

00:38:30.900 --> 00:38:34.740
So I was reading these things and feeling nourished by them.

00:38:34.740 --> 00:38:40.480
Oh, by the way, one of the side effects when Jesus awakened me is when I had so much light

00:38:40.480 --> 00:38:46.240
pouring through me, I didn't need much in food because the light was feeding me on some level.

00:38:46.240 --> 00:38:55.520
So I lost about 10 pounds. I went from like 119 to 109 or even, but I felt so full in my spirit

00:38:55.520 --> 00:38:59.520
that I didn't need very much food. So that was an interesting experience as well.

00:38:59.520 --> 00:39:04.800
- I was gonna ask because Jesus had talked to you about weight, whether you had been overweight or

00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:07.520
something, but you said you're only 119, which is not bad.

00:39:07.520 --> 00:39:14.640
on it. But that happened and I really understood how this energy in us when it gets awakened,

00:39:14.640 --> 00:39:22.960
you don't crave food as much, physical food, because your soul is being fed this amrita

00:39:22.960 --> 00:39:29.840
that pours from you and it's quite delicious, as I can describe it, absolutely delicious amrita.

00:39:29.840 --> 00:39:38.480
So now it's 1986, met my teacher, took this initiation, now working at MIT. My teacher

00:39:38.480 --> 00:39:44.160
leaves for a couple of years. In the meantime, I'm doing practices, I'm meditating, chanting,

00:39:44.160 --> 00:39:51.760
you know, doing selfless service, reading books, and living my life, trying to integrate all of this

00:39:52.320 --> 00:40:01.840
every day and when she returns in 1988 it was now the summer it was actually July 4th which we

00:40:01.840 --> 00:40:08.240
recognize as our liberation day right here in the United States and I was taking a course at that

00:40:08.240 --> 00:40:17.440
time at the meditation center on basically the ego and releasing the ego and on the third day

00:40:18.080 --> 00:40:24.480
of the course, I was sitting outside on the meditation ground, sitting in an Adirondack

00:40:24.480 --> 00:40:31.600
chair under this huge pine tree by myself. I was eating my lunch, being in silence, and

00:40:31.600 --> 00:40:40.240
that night before the instruction was, "If you want to get rid of negativities, then repeat

00:40:40.240 --> 00:40:47.840
these words 24 hours a day, even in your sleep. So I repeated these words 24 hours a day.

00:40:47.840 --> 00:40:48.960
- Some chant.

00:40:48.960 --> 00:40:51.520
- Some chant, yeah, very small.

00:40:51.520 --> 00:40:53.120
- Sounds good thing or something.

00:40:53.120 --> 00:40:57.280
- Yeah, and I thought, well, how am I going to do this in my sleep? And I thought, oh, I know,

00:40:57.280 --> 00:41:01.520
I'll repeat it as I'm going to sleep and then it'll just repeat itself. So I worked that out.

00:41:01.520 --> 00:41:06.960
So here I am the next day, same thing. I'm repeating these words, repeating these words.

00:41:06.960 --> 00:41:13.360
people are all around, hundreds of people all around, but I'm sitting by myself and I'm trying

00:41:13.360 --> 00:41:20.160
to read this book called the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali by Alice Bailey and this one sentence

00:41:20.160 --> 00:41:27.680
captivated me and it said, "At some point, at some point, the ego will have to take the back seat

00:41:27.680 --> 00:41:36.400
and let the soul lead the way." And I thought, "Yes! I want that to happen to me!" That was

00:41:36.400 --> 00:41:44.480
a defining moment. In that moment, this powerful energy came over my head. It was the most powerful

00:41:44.480 --> 00:41:52.240
energy and I recognized it. I'll give it the word God, but not as a persona or as a person,

00:41:52.240 --> 00:41:58.160
but as an energy. I gave it a different name after that. And this energy was so powerful,

00:41:58.720 --> 00:42:06.240
I knew what it was and it opened up my crown chakra, this crown chakra here and it went down

00:42:06.240 --> 00:42:15.200
to the kundalini and boom awakened that kundalini to its fullest extent and as the awakening of the

00:42:15.200 --> 00:42:22.080
kundalini happened it started to roll up inside me up the shishumna, the central channel you have

00:42:22.080 --> 00:42:27.040
the ida and pangala which is duality male-female but when those two come together in union and

00:42:27.040 --> 00:42:30.840
and go up to Shishumna, a divine alchemy of light happens,

00:42:30.840 --> 00:42:33.880
and you turn into a divine being instead.

00:42:33.880 --> 00:42:36.280
And it entered up through the Shishumna, through here.

00:42:36.280 --> 00:42:37.960
As it did, I could feel it rolling up

00:42:37.960 --> 00:42:39.960
the script of life as Mary.

00:42:39.960 --> 00:42:41.440
That was my experience.

00:42:41.440 --> 00:42:44.520
Oh, it's rolling up the script of life as Mary.

00:42:44.520 --> 00:42:46.120
Rolling it up, all the issues.

00:42:46.120 --> 00:42:48.520
And I understood at some point from here down,

00:42:48.520 --> 00:42:50.520
your script of your individual life

00:42:50.520 --> 00:42:52.440
is written on your chakras.

00:42:52.440 --> 00:42:54.480
All the things you're gonna go through,

00:42:54.480 --> 00:42:56.320
all written there, right there.

00:42:56.320 --> 00:42:59.120
And when you've cleared out all of that,

00:42:59.120 --> 00:43:01.720
and it's your time, Kundalini awakens,

00:43:01.720 --> 00:43:04.000
rolls up, when it reached here,

00:43:04.000 --> 00:43:05.900
picture of my teacher showed up,

00:43:05.900 --> 00:43:08.800
I got divine permission to enter the higher.

00:43:08.800 --> 00:43:11.040
And as soon as that happened,

00:43:11.040 --> 00:43:16.040
this light of a thousand suns awakened within my crown,

00:43:16.040 --> 00:43:18.920
and the words that came out,

00:43:18.920 --> 00:43:22.840
or the words that I heard, felt, was,

00:43:22.840 --> 00:43:27.840
Aham Brahmasmi, I am Brahman and all this is my creation.

00:43:27.840 --> 00:43:32.760
And as I looked out, I saw like a gossamer,

00:43:32.760 --> 00:43:34.880
it was like a gossamer covering everything.

00:43:34.880 --> 00:43:38.840
I will call it maybe Maya or gossamer over everything.

00:43:38.840 --> 00:43:43.720
And I thought, ah, the world is created from that.

00:43:43.720 --> 00:43:47.040
And I knew that Brahman was my natural state

00:43:47.040 --> 00:43:50.080
and the natural state of all humanity,

00:43:50.080 --> 00:43:54.720
that this is why we've come to reclaim our inheritance

00:43:54.720 --> 00:43:59.560
as Brahman, the ultimate field of omniscience, divine reality.

00:43:59.560 --> 00:44:02.080
I looked up over this building

00:44:02.080 --> 00:44:07.080
and there was Jesus rising in a cloud with his hands up.

00:44:07.080 --> 00:44:10.440
He looked at me and he rose up into the clouds

00:44:10.440 --> 00:44:11.660
and disappeared.

00:44:11.660 --> 00:44:14.940
And I thought, am I ascending too?

00:44:14.940 --> 00:44:18.360
And then I thought, yes, I'm ascending here

00:44:18.360 --> 00:44:20.220
in this physical body.

00:44:20.220 --> 00:44:25.180
And I understood we're here to reclaim our divinity

00:44:25.180 --> 00:44:28.900
and to anchor it in this physical body

00:44:28.900 --> 00:44:33.100
and then to create the world that we live in here

00:44:33.100 --> 00:44:36.220
from that state of mind.

00:44:36.220 --> 00:44:39.260
When I looked out, I could see also what happened

00:44:39.260 --> 00:44:41.020
as this energy opened.

00:44:41.020 --> 00:44:42.880
It was like a fire hose of light.

00:44:42.880 --> 00:44:43.780
That's all I can describe.

00:44:43.780 --> 00:44:44.740
It was like a fire hose.

00:44:44.740 --> 00:44:46.820
You know, fire hose which shoots out water?

00:44:46.820 --> 00:44:50.900
that's what it was, a fire hose and it just came down and it kept pouring. And then when it got

00:44:50.900 --> 00:44:57.060
to my heart, it burst it open so that it was pouring this divine energy and the feeling of

00:44:57.060 --> 00:45:04.340
it was bliss and compassion. Not compassion out of pity, but compassion because it was a natural

00:45:04.340 --> 00:45:10.420
state of being. And all of that was happening all at once. And as I looked out and people walked by,

00:45:10.980 --> 00:45:16.740
saw people walking by from this state and I could see their souls that hovered over their head.

00:45:16.740 --> 00:45:21.860
It was like right here and I could see the soul. It was like filtering down like a Christmas tree

00:45:21.860 --> 00:45:27.860
over them and I wanted to shout at them, "Hey, look up! Your soul is right there! Look, look!"

00:45:27.860 --> 00:45:32.500
But I could see that they were caught in mind. They were caught in mind stuff because I saw that

00:45:32.500 --> 00:45:39.940
too and I thought, "Don't you know you're God? Don't you know? Look, look, look!" But I couldn't

00:45:39.940 --> 00:45:47.860
shout it. I couldn't shout it out, but I felt it. And the tremendous, I was so elated, so blissful,

00:45:47.860 --> 00:45:54.340
fear fled. Fear cannot go past here. Fear is part of the egoic structure.

00:45:54.340 --> 00:45:57.620
For those who are just listening in audio, you're pointing to your third eye area,

00:45:57.620 --> 00:46:03.300
the macular point it's called, and you're saying fear cannot go past that spot to any higher state.

00:46:03.300 --> 00:46:09.380
No, because fear is part of the dualistic state. And that is the first feeling people feel when

00:46:09.380 --> 00:46:13.700
they're separated is fear. How do I know that? I'll explain that in a bit.

00:46:13.700 --> 00:46:15.140
Pete There's actually a line from the

00:46:15.140 --> 00:46:19.540
Upanishads about that very thing. It just says, "Certainly all fear is born of duality."

00:46:19.540 --> 00:46:23.220
Susan Yes, absolutely the truth. And so, here I am

00:46:23.220 --> 00:46:30.100
reclaiming my statement, like, yes, this is our natural state. Now, it's omniscient and it's

00:46:30.100 --> 00:46:36.420
divine and it's blissful, but it's our natural state. And I remember the egoic state and how

00:46:36.420 --> 00:46:43.140
unnatural and hellish it was to live in it because now I had something to compare it to.

00:46:43.140 --> 00:46:49.220
And it seemed to me that we've bought into this egoic structure as our natural state,

00:46:49.220 --> 00:46:57.700
which is so convincing and has held you like a prisoner with no escape. Save my teacher's grace,

00:46:57.700 --> 00:47:05.220
who else can I turn to? And so this state I recognize as our natural state and that everybody,

00:47:05.220 --> 00:47:13.460
that it's in everybody, everyone, in the beggar, in a rich person, in the terrorist, in the saint,

00:47:13.460 --> 00:47:20.260
it's all there inside us and it's that you access it and why it's so important to wake up to it.

00:47:20.260 --> 00:47:26.260
Because if you don't wake up to it and you turn to fear and hate, you will do horrible things to

00:47:26.260 --> 00:47:33.540
other people because you will see them as other and able then to easily kill them, either with words,

00:47:33.540 --> 00:47:39.700
either with actions or literally physically. And this is why it's so important to reclaim

00:47:39.700 --> 00:47:46.580
this state and I understood this is why we came to Earth. This is why Earth is such an important

00:47:46.580 --> 00:47:53.060
place to be and to reclaim it here, that's the great purpose. And later I would come to know

00:47:53.060 --> 00:48:00.180
a word called Jivan Mukta. It's a Sanskrit word which means Jivan is body and Mukta is liberation.

00:48:00.180 --> 00:48:07.380
so being liberated while here in a physical body. When I looked down at my arm as I was having this

00:48:07.380 --> 00:48:16.020
experience, I could see light pouring all around my flesh, and I understood that it was the light

00:48:16.020 --> 00:48:24.660
that was alive. The flesh had no life of its own other than this light that innervated it and gave

00:48:24.660 --> 00:48:32.020
it life and the words that I was given for humanity or the message was, "Here is your

00:48:32.020 --> 00:48:37.540
divinity, the divinity that awaits all mankind.

00:48:37.540 --> 00:48:41.140
Your soul wants full expression now.

00:48:41.140 --> 00:48:43.340
This is the presence.

00:48:43.340 --> 00:48:46.000
This is the living presence.

00:48:46.000 --> 00:48:48.440
This is living.

00:48:48.440 --> 00:48:50.980
This is real."

00:48:50.980 --> 00:48:58.040
And that's the message that I want everyone to know, and that is the truth.

00:48:58.040 --> 00:49:00.620
No matter what others say, this is the living truth.

00:49:00.620 --> 00:49:03.480
And when it happens to you, you know it.

00:49:03.480 --> 00:49:05.980
You're a changed person.

00:49:05.980 --> 00:49:11.360
As I was going through that state, I was also given an understanding of the different kingdoms,

00:49:11.360 --> 00:49:17.180
the mineral kingdom, the animal kingdom, the plant kingdom, the human kingdom, and then

00:49:17.180 --> 00:49:18.880
the divine kingdom.

00:49:18.880 --> 00:49:25.880
And that humans were unique because only humans ask the question, "Who am I?

00:49:25.880 --> 00:49:26.880
Why am I here?"

00:49:26.880 --> 00:49:28.440
A tree doesn't ask it.

00:49:28.440 --> 00:49:30.040
A dog doesn't ask it.

00:49:30.040 --> 00:49:32.180
A flower doesn't ask it.

00:49:32.180 --> 00:49:33.940
Only humans can ask it.

00:49:33.940 --> 00:49:39.820
And when you ask that question sincerely, you begin the journey to your divine nature.

00:49:39.820 --> 00:49:45.440
And when you come into your divine nature, it affects the consciousness of the universe

00:49:45.440 --> 00:49:53.440
because you're one. It's all one universe, one consciousness, one consciousness as divinity.

00:49:53.440 --> 00:50:01.040
And that's why it's important. So when we rise up as humanity, rising up from human state to divine,

00:50:01.040 --> 00:50:06.400
all the other kingdoms rise up with it. And that's what makes us so unique. And that's what makes it

00:50:06.400 --> 00:50:12.880
so important. And that's what makes everyone important. Every single person on this planet

00:50:12.880 --> 00:50:19.840
important because this is what they have within them and the possibilities of that. Now at the

00:50:19.840 --> 00:50:26.960
end of all of this for 20 minutes I had signed up to do dishes in the dishroom, huge dishroom,

00:50:26.960 --> 00:50:34.400
many people, soap suds, machine going, crashing around, lights, you know, from the water, all the

00:50:34.400 --> 00:50:38.640
smoke and everything, you know, coming up from this is the last I went, entered the dishroom

00:50:38.640 --> 00:50:46.240
and I was still in this state. I had my gloves on and the water and the dirty dishes and washing

00:50:46.240 --> 00:50:51.520
the dishes and I am in bliss. And I happened to look up and the woman across from me happened to

00:50:51.520 --> 00:50:58.320
look at the same time and she looked into my eyes and she burst into tears because the state that I

00:50:58.320 --> 00:51:05.200
was feeling ignited and reminded her of the state within her and she burst into tears. I finished

00:51:05.840 --> 00:51:13.520
my dishwashing and I left the dishroom. As I left the dishroom, someone stopped me to ask me a question.

00:51:13.520 --> 00:51:23.360
In that moment, I could feel the energy pulling me down, back, down, down, down, into separation.

00:51:23.360 --> 00:51:32.480
I was so distraught because now I was experiencing the fall from grace and very consciously.

00:51:32.480 --> 00:51:40.400
The agony of it was so severe I wanted to sob completely, but I restrained myself from doing

00:51:40.400 --> 00:51:48.000
that. And the first feeling that I had was fear, fear, just like that. And I entered back into this

00:51:48.000 --> 00:51:54.000
egoic state. It was a magnet like pulling, it was like maya just pulling you down. You can't fight

00:51:54.000 --> 00:52:00.320
it. You can't argue with it. This is your karma. You've got stuff to handle. You've got stuff to

00:52:00.320 --> 00:52:05.360
clean out. You got stuff to go through and you will see the wisdom of it at some point and I'm like,

00:52:05.360 --> 00:52:14.560
no, no, absolutely not. I was absolutely in agony and later on, maybe three years later,

00:52:14.560 --> 00:52:20.000
I was reading this book called the Shiva Stotravali and in it, Upaladeva, one of the,

00:52:20.000 --> 00:52:24.080
I think, a ninth century saint said, when you experience it, he gave a word for it,

00:52:24.080 --> 00:52:31.120
It's called Vipralambha, the agony of separation. Then I understood that all the separations you

00:52:31.120 --> 00:52:38.320
go through in this life from your loves of your life were all a mirror to that greater separation

00:52:38.320 --> 00:52:44.720
that you were really suffering from and trying to seek in each other, trying to find each other,

00:52:44.720 --> 00:52:51.600
trying to find a relationships. And believe me, I tried myself to find that. And the days that

00:52:51.600 --> 00:52:58.560
followed, it was so difficult for me to have to deal with this and to integrate it and accept it.

00:52:58.560 --> 00:53:05.040
This took a lot of surrender on my part and I wrote to my teacher about it. What in the what?

00:53:05.040 --> 00:53:12.000
And she wrote back that the reason that I experienced this because my great face in the

00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:17.920
Shakti, that's why I experienced it. In other words, I had no doubt that this could happen.

00:53:17.920 --> 00:53:23.600
I didn't have enough training to tell me it couldn't happen. I wasn't a scholar to read that it's very

00:53:23.600 --> 00:53:30.240
difficult and hardly anyone ever enters this state. I had none of that in my way because I didn't have

00:53:30.240 --> 00:53:36.160
any doubt that this could happen to me, none whatsoever, and it did happen. And then after

00:53:36.160 --> 00:53:41.600
I wrote to my teacher, I got phone calls once a week for three weeks to tell me that this was a

00:53:41.600 --> 00:53:50.000
great experience. Now this is 1988, July, July 4th, my liberation day and yet I had to go back.

00:53:50.000 --> 00:53:56.080
So time went on and I had to integrate this, live my life, go to work, do the practices,

00:53:56.080 --> 00:54:03.840
find some acceptance, live my life with the knowledge that one day I'd return to my natural

00:54:03.840 --> 00:54:09.520
state which is Brahman, our natural state and everyone's natural state. You can call it whatever

00:54:09.520 --> 00:54:16.480
you want, but divine being. It was now October. I was working at MIT and I would be during the

00:54:16.480 --> 00:54:22.480
winter time, I would meditate in a lobby in the engineering building, electrical engineering

00:54:22.480 --> 00:54:27.520
building at MIT. Because I had a nice big lobby and in the middle there was a door that swung around

00:54:27.520 --> 00:54:32.240
and basically students would come through and cut through to go to the other parts of the campus.

00:54:32.240 --> 00:54:37.520
So I would meditate on a bench. I would take my lunch, meditate on the bench for a little while

00:54:37.520 --> 00:54:43.920
and then go back to work. Now it's October 1988. I'm still reeling from self-realization and having

00:54:43.920 --> 00:54:49.920
to go back and live my life, not really finding anybody even on the path who I would speak to

00:54:49.920 --> 00:54:55.600
about this, who could not understand what the heck was I talking about. So it was a rather lonely

00:54:55.600 --> 00:55:02.160
time, a rather lonely thing, and a lot of people on a path find that is a rather lonely event in

00:55:02.160 --> 00:55:10.160
walking the path and now I'm reading about a monk, a realized monk, who had passed and I knew that I

00:55:10.160 --> 00:55:15.120
would never meet him because now he was on the other side. So I was feeling kind of sad about it.

00:55:15.120 --> 00:55:19.600
So I closed my eyes to meditate, put the book down, I thought I had to meditate. So I closed my eyes to

00:55:19.600 --> 00:55:26.240
meditate. It's a few moments later, my eyes still closed. I hear, "Are you ready?" And I'm like,

00:55:26.240 --> 00:55:32.720
"Oh, that's just a student. He's bothering me. He sees I'm meditating. He's... pay no attention to him."

00:55:32.720 --> 00:55:39.360
I hear again, "Are you ready? Wait a minute." And so I kind of look to my left and there's the monk.

00:55:39.360 --> 00:55:45.600
And now I'm like, "Wait a minute. People have talked about these experiences in meditation,

00:55:45.600 --> 00:55:51.920
that they're really life. You can see this person coming towards you. Oh my God, it's true."

00:55:52.480 --> 00:55:59.040
And so he turned and he walked towards me and as he walked towards me, he turned into the Milky Way.

00:55:59.040 --> 00:56:04.640
His energy turned into the Milky Way and entered my solar plexus. When he entered my solar plexus,

00:56:04.640 --> 00:56:11.760
mind you, I still had my eyes closed, it made such a racket inside me. This whirling, this tornado,

00:56:11.760 --> 00:56:17.520
lights and energy and you know, conscious blowing and I could hear a locomotive of a train and I

00:56:17.520 --> 00:56:26.880
I heard bells ringing and this energy was moving up and some of it went down, but it was all moving up

00:56:26.880 --> 00:56:33.600
and it was so loud and so powerful and so strong that I thought my ears were going to burst. Of

00:56:33.600 --> 00:56:39.360
course, I had the thought my tympanic membranes were going to burst. This energy just kept coming

00:56:39.360 --> 00:56:44.480
up and up and up and when it reached here I thought, "I'm leaving my body. Is that okay?

00:56:46.400 --> 00:56:55.040
Is that all right?" And he said, "Yes." I just went with it. At some point, like a split second,

00:56:55.040 --> 00:57:04.320
there I was, my energy body, standing next to the energy body of this monk. Now, looking at a window

00:57:04.320 --> 00:57:10.160
of light, two windows of light, one above the other, the light that was pouring from those windows was

00:57:10.160 --> 00:57:17.200
so powerful, it was such a magnetic pull that I couldn't resist. I've got to go. I'm going.

00:57:17.200 --> 00:57:24.960
Wait a minute, you have a daughter. No, I'm going. I'm going. I'm going. As I went to move towards

00:57:24.960 --> 00:57:32.400
the light, he stopped me and he said, not yet. Oh no, I have to go back. I don't want to go back.

00:57:32.400 --> 00:57:35.920
I have to go back, but I have to go back. It's like, well, how am I going to get back?

00:57:35.920 --> 00:57:41.280
I didn't have a physical body, it was just in my light body. And I looked down and there was this

00:57:41.280 --> 00:57:48.880
filament of light, this silver cord that somehow was attached to me around the umbilical area.

00:57:48.880 --> 00:57:54.480
And I was told that I had to follow the cord back to wherever the heck I was going. And so

00:57:54.480 --> 00:58:01.360
I followed the cord and it took all of my energy to concentrate to get back. And as I'm following

00:58:01.360 --> 00:58:07.040
this chord it was dark and all of a sudden the vista opens up and now I see the solar system

00:58:07.040 --> 00:58:14.000
and I go wow I've been far away from wherever I was so now I started flying past the different

00:58:14.000 --> 00:58:20.640
planets very quickly and just amazed you know at the beauty of them and coming back and then I was

00:58:20.640 --> 00:58:28.400
like a zoom you know like google zoom's like and so I was like and finally I reach earth like oh

00:58:28.400 --> 00:58:33.560
I'm going to earth. I was like, Oh, I'm going to North America. And

00:58:33.560 --> 00:58:36.740
I was like, Oh, I'm going to Massachusetts. Oh, I'm going to

00:58:36.740 --> 00:58:42.040
MIT. And now I find myself looking down at a body. This

00:58:42.040 --> 00:58:46.320
meditating on a bench. That's the body you have to go back to.

00:58:46.320 --> 00:58:51.640
Really? I was quite happy where I was. No, you got to go back

00:58:51.640 --> 00:58:54.600
into the body. I had no connection with that body. I had

00:58:54.600 --> 00:58:57.840
no feeling about it. I didn't know if it was a man or a woman.

00:58:58.120 --> 00:59:02.520
I just had to go back into a body and I had to enter through the head.

00:59:02.520 --> 00:59:03.720
That's how I came out.

00:59:03.720 --> 00:59:07.720
And so I entered through the head and when I did the physical body

00:59:07.720 --> 00:59:08.920
jumped like boom.

00:59:08.920 --> 00:59:13.920
It was like, oh like your foot going into a very tight shoe and

00:59:13.920 --> 00:59:18.120
then all of a sudden all the mental emotional stuff connected

00:59:18.120 --> 00:59:23.520
with this being and body all flooded back and I went, oh, no, I

00:59:23.520 --> 00:59:25.220
have to deal with this mind.

00:59:25.220 --> 00:59:27.120
I have to deal with these thoughts.

00:59:27.620 --> 00:59:30.140
Oh no, this is terrible.

00:59:30.140 --> 00:59:33.180
And all of a sudden, the picture of the monk showed up again.

00:59:33.180 --> 00:59:35.700
He showed up and he goes to me,

00:59:35.700 --> 00:59:40.700
"You see, the veil is very thin between here and there.

00:59:40.700 --> 00:59:42.760
Very thin."

00:59:42.760 --> 00:59:45.260
And he disappears.

00:59:45.260 --> 00:59:47.860
Now I'm sitting, I'm in this physical body,

00:59:47.860 --> 00:59:49.740
sitting on the bench at MIT

00:59:49.740 --> 00:59:51.300
in the electrical engineering building,

00:59:51.300 --> 00:59:54.500
looking out on Mass Ave and wondering

00:59:54.500 --> 00:59:55.980
if people were standing around me

00:59:55.980 --> 00:59:57.520
'cause it was such a racket

00:59:57.520 --> 01:00:00.920
When I opened my eyes, there was nobody there, nobody around.

01:00:00.920 --> 01:00:02.720
Then I had the thought, wait a minute,

01:00:02.720 --> 01:00:05.600
I didn't have a physical body, but I could move,

01:00:05.600 --> 01:00:08.020
I could see, I could be.

01:00:08.020 --> 01:00:10.060
Wait a minute, you don't die.

01:00:10.060 --> 01:00:12.840
Your physical body drops, but you're eternal.

01:00:12.840 --> 01:00:15.400
You move on to whatever.

01:00:15.400 --> 01:00:19.020
Then I thought, wait a minute, if there's no death,

01:00:19.020 --> 01:00:20.660
then how can you have birth?

01:00:20.660 --> 01:00:22.420
The dualistic version of it.

01:00:22.420 --> 01:00:25.760
Oh my God, the whole thing, it's not real.

01:00:25.760 --> 01:00:27.860
Oh my God, the whole thing's an illusion.

01:00:27.860 --> 01:00:30.460
You were never born, you never die,

01:00:30.460 --> 01:00:31.980
you're an eternal being.

01:00:31.980 --> 01:00:33.680
And from that moment on,

01:00:33.680 --> 01:00:37.680
there was no such concept of death to me anymore.

01:00:37.680 --> 01:00:39.500
Death died on that day.

01:00:39.500 --> 01:00:42.460
And I no longer feared that.

01:00:42.460 --> 01:00:44.480
The thing that I wasn't happy about

01:00:44.480 --> 01:00:45.720
was being back in a body,

01:00:45.720 --> 01:00:48.860
having to deal with the egoic construct

01:00:48.860 --> 01:00:52.680
and living life in an environment of egoic construct.

01:00:52.680 --> 01:00:54.840
That bothered me a heck of a lot more.

01:00:54.840 --> 01:01:00.840
Do you feel that just being itself is eternal, impersonal being, or do you feel that even

01:01:00.840 --> 01:01:06.920
with some kind of personality of some sort, some type of individuality, I mean we don't

01:01:06.920 --> 01:01:09.080
get into the fine points, is eternal?

01:01:09.080 --> 01:01:13.800
Like there's that Gita verse, "Never a time when I was not, nor you, nor all these rulers

01:01:13.800 --> 01:01:17.360
of men, and never shall there be a time when all of us shall cease to be."

01:01:17.360 --> 01:01:22.520
And that implies some kind of individuality being immortal, not just being itself.

01:01:22.520 --> 01:01:23.520
No, no individuality.

01:01:23.520 --> 01:01:26.720
You think he's referring to being itself there?

01:01:26.720 --> 01:01:28.720
Yes, being itself.

01:01:28.720 --> 01:01:31.040
Individuality belongs with the egoic construct.

01:01:31.040 --> 01:01:32.040
That's all egoic construct.

01:01:32.040 --> 01:01:34.080
I can tell you that for sure.

01:01:34.080 --> 01:01:39.160
But then that monk showed up, having died, with some kind of individuality to interact

01:01:39.160 --> 01:01:40.160
with you.

01:01:40.160 --> 01:01:45.360
Well, you interpret it as an individuality, but it's just an energy.

01:01:45.360 --> 01:01:48.560
An energy that you recognize as that particular person.

01:01:48.560 --> 01:01:56.460
But I can tell you, it's so difficult to describe all of this and even it is a very much a mystery.

01:01:56.460 --> 01:02:02.300
But I can tell you when I experienced Aham Brahmasmi, I am Brahman and all this is my

01:02:02.300 --> 01:02:03.300
creation.

01:02:03.300 --> 01:02:12.700
It's a oneness that cannot be described, understood from a mental construct or having a physical

01:02:12.700 --> 01:02:13.700
body.

01:02:13.700 --> 01:02:15.100
It's impossible.

01:02:15.100 --> 01:02:16.880
I can try to describe it.

01:02:16.880 --> 01:02:18.180
It's impossible.

01:02:18.180 --> 01:02:23.400
And no one can, I know, because I was on the other side of that, no one can tell you, no

01:02:23.400 --> 01:02:26.900
one can describe it in words that will make you get it.

01:02:26.900 --> 01:02:29.140
It's an experience you have in yourself.

01:02:29.140 --> 01:02:31.700
And when you're one, it's one.

01:02:31.700 --> 01:02:35.220
We may have a physical body, but we're not physical bodies.

01:02:35.220 --> 01:02:39.020
We may have a personality that expresses, but we're not a personality.

01:02:39.020 --> 01:02:41.940
We may have thoughts, but we're not thoughts.

01:02:41.940 --> 01:02:48.020
We are that which comes through and expresses in this world.

01:02:48.020 --> 01:02:55.500
And there's no way I could convince anybody of anything, but I can tell you for sure,

01:02:55.500 --> 01:02:56.580
you don't die.

01:02:56.580 --> 01:02:57.960
There is no such thing.

01:02:57.960 --> 01:03:00.520
And for sure, you are Brahman.

01:03:00.520 --> 01:03:05.740
We all are, all one, and you can call it whatever you want, whatever you want.

01:03:05.740 --> 01:03:13.180
And there's no way, no words or ideas that I can describe that can give anybody that experience.

01:03:13.180 --> 01:03:18.220
So, do you think that once that realization of Brahman is stabilized, not just something

01:03:18.220 --> 01:03:24.100
that disappears after you wash dishes, and then eventually the body dies, do you think

01:03:24.100 --> 01:03:27.700
that's the end of any kind of experience?

01:03:27.700 --> 01:03:32.100
It's like the drop merges in the ocean and that's the end of the drop once and for all?

01:03:32.100 --> 01:03:33.740
Like Jesus came to you, right?

01:03:33.740 --> 01:03:34.740
And interacted with you.

01:03:34.740 --> 01:03:41.900
So, somehow Jesus, as Jesus, was still functioning on some level, apparently, to have that interaction

01:03:41.900 --> 01:03:45.700
with you, and yet, you know, presuming he had attained Brahman, how do you reconcile

01:03:45.700 --> 01:03:46.700
that?

01:03:46.700 --> 01:03:50.340
You know, when things filter down into this physical world, they do get filtered down.

01:03:50.340 --> 01:03:51.980
That's the only way I can describe it.

01:03:51.980 --> 01:03:58.540
I don't know for sure, but that's the only way my mind can kind of conjure up an explanation

01:03:58.540 --> 01:04:05.420
of it to say, "Just like we have physical bodies on this earth, you, me, physical body, you're

01:04:05.420 --> 01:04:13.180
not that. You're not that." It's just an expression on a plane called earth that has these physical

01:04:13.180 --> 01:04:18.380
constructs for whatever reason, but we're not the constructs. You may have a construct,

01:04:18.380 --> 01:04:23.780
but you're not the construct. And Jesus might come down as light as a construct, but it's

01:04:23.780 --> 01:04:32.100
just a way of relating in that moment. But once you're anchored in Brahman, like very few masters

01:04:32.100 --> 01:04:39.140
on this planet right now are anchored in that 24/7, but if you ever are around one, you feel it.

01:04:39.140 --> 01:04:47.780
And that state is yours. Just because you're not accessing it, doesn't mean it's not the same.

01:04:48.340 --> 01:04:53.460
it is the same. There is only one. And you can call it whatever you want. You can call it Christ

01:04:53.460 --> 01:04:58.900
Consciousness. You can call it Brahman. You can call it whatever you want to call it. Once you

01:04:58.900 --> 01:05:03.620
experience it, you're like, "What?" The jig is up. And you have to be...

01:05:03.620 --> 01:05:08.420
I understand all that. And, you know, I understand I, my father, one that Jesus said.

01:05:08.420 --> 01:05:13.860
But I'm just wondering, as a case in point, you had this interaction with a being that seemed to

01:05:13.860 --> 01:05:17.380
to be Jesus or with an energy that you identified as Jesus.

01:05:17.380 --> 01:05:22.500
So it's just a personal curiosity of mine as to whether once enlightenment has been attained,

01:05:22.500 --> 01:05:27.180
there's still some functionality that can interact with people as Jesus was interacting

01:05:27.180 --> 01:05:28.540
with you.

01:05:28.540 --> 01:05:34.700
So in some respect, one's life goes on even though it's not bound by individuality.

01:05:34.700 --> 01:05:40.380
But there's still an individual expression as if an instrument of the divine which can

01:05:40.380 --> 01:05:41.700
play a certain role apparently.

01:05:41.700 --> 01:05:49.460
Yeah, and I wasn't privy to be allowed to go past those windows of light. So I can't speak to how

01:05:49.460 --> 01:05:56.500
all of that operates. I don't know how all that operates. It is a divine mystery of all mysteries.

01:05:56.500 --> 01:06:04.980
And I don't know, but I know for sure, for sure, we are one. And I know for sure,

01:06:04.980 --> 01:06:10.740
we are eternal beings. How all of that hellskiss works out, I guess I don't need to know that right

01:06:10.740 --> 01:06:12.980
now. Find out when you find out.

01:06:12.980 --> 01:06:17.220
Yeah, you find out when you find out. I mean, if you need to know, it is a need to know basis.

01:06:17.220 --> 01:06:21.300
It's just a curiosity. It's a theme that comes up from time to time.

01:06:21.300 --> 01:06:28.180
Yeah, I mean, the mind wants to make sense of it. The mind wants to make sense of something that

01:06:28.180 --> 01:06:33.940
is beyond the mind. The mind is an instrument and it's a beautiful instrument, but it's limited

01:06:33.940 --> 01:06:41.940
in terms of all of that. And then when you're in beingness, you can use the mind as a instrument,

01:06:41.940 --> 01:06:47.140
as a tool. You can use it for that. And thoughts, you can use thoughts as a tool.

01:06:47.140 --> 01:06:54.020
But you know, when my mind stopped and Jesus entered, it's because I was in between thoughts.

01:06:54.020 --> 01:07:01.940
And so that space in between thoughts, that's the state of divinity. The space in between breaths

01:07:01.940 --> 01:07:08.820
is the state of divinity, your divine nature. So, that's that space that's not empty,

01:07:08.820 --> 01:07:15.700
it's filled with the no thing. This is as much as I've been given to know, which is quite a bit,

01:07:15.700 --> 01:07:22.580
but the rest is trying to understand it from the mind. It's interesting, the questions are

01:07:22.580 --> 01:07:27.620
interesting, but I don't think their answers can be very satisfactory in the end.

01:07:27.620 --> 01:07:30.580
Pete It's like a hypothetical speculation.

01:07:30.580 --> 01:07:37.660
Yeah, which is kind of fun to banter around. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, I mean a lot of traditions say well the drop merges into the ocean

01:07:37.660 --> 01:07:44.980
That's the end of any individuation or personal experience once enlightenment has been attained and the body does but then you have all these people

01:07:44.980 --> 01:07:49.100
Having Jesus come to them and Ramana Maharishi's coming to visit and all this stuff. Yes

01:07:49.100 --> 01:07:51.300
How do you reconcile those two ideas?

01:07:51.300 --> 01:07:58.020
Because there are other states of being in consciousness that are in other places in this

01:07:59.020 --> 01:08:04.800
Cosmic universe there are other places that I haven't been invited to

01:08:04.800 --> 01:08:11.120
In my father's house there are many mansions yes, so I haven't been invited there

01:08:11.120 --> 01:08:17.460
Check that out, but not yet, but not yet. I mean eventually you know yeah find out

01:08:17.460 --> 01:08:23.160
Okay, that's just a little curiosity of mine. It comes up from time to time in these interviews

01:08:23.160 --> 01:08:25.520
It's one of those little things that you on over the years. I

01:08:26.180 --> 01:08:32.980
I think it's a great contemplation because the more you focus in contemplating it, in asking the

01:08:32.980 --> 01:08:42.020
questions, the more the answer is in the question and gets revealed. So I think that's very worthwhile.

01:08:42.020 --> 01:08:47.140
That's called contemplation. When I was reading that line from the Yoga Sutras, you have to let

01:08:47.140 --> 01:08:52.580
the ego take the back seat and let the soul drive the vehicle. And I thought, "I want that to happen

01:08:52.580 --> 01:08:57.460
to me. I wonder what that would be like? That was a question and it was my time to get an answer.

01:08:57.460 --> 01:09:00.020
And I got a big time answer.

01:09:00.020 --> 01:09:01.380
David Yeah, you know,

01:09:01.380 --> 01:09:05.540
there's something you mentioned a little while back about when you had that Brahman experience

01:09:05.540 --> 01:09:12.660
and the world seemed to be like this sheen or this thin veneer on Brahman. There's actually a

01:09:12.660 --> 01:09:17.700
term for that in the Yoga Sutras, which is Leysa Vidya, which means faint remains of ignorance.

01:09:17.700 --> 01:09:21.780
It's said that you have to have that faint remains of ignorance in order to function in the world,

01:09:21.780 --> 01:09:26.100
otherwise you wouldn't recognize the world and wouldn't be able to feed yourself or do anything.

01:09:26.100 --> 01:09:30.580
But presumably there's the possibility of living in that state permanently,

01:09:30.580 --> 01:09:36.740
but still having enough of a cognition of a world, howsoever ephemeral it may seem,

01:09:36.740 --> 01:09:40.180
to be able to function normally and drive cars and all the stuff you have to do.

01:09:40.180 --> 01:09:48.020
Mary>> Or do the dishes. I mean, I could still do the dishes and appreciate the construct of this

01:09:48.020 --> 01:09:53.300
beautiful world. I could still do that, but I was be in the world but not of the world.

01:09:53.300 --> 01:10:00.820
That's it right there. Be in the world but not of the world. So it's all here and it's astonishing

01:10:00.820 --> 01:10:08.020
and amazing and I'm just not the same from having known all this, you know, having experienced it,

01:10:08.020 --> 01:10:14.020
having been given the understanding and the experiences. When they happen to you, then you

01:10:14.020 --> 01:10:20.500
And you know, I would say that you and some people are wired to have these kinds of experiences,

01:10:20.500 --> 01:10:24.920
but people shouldn't feel envious if they're not having them, because you can mature into

01:10:24.920 --> 01:10:31.260
a very nice, highly enlightened state without having all these flashy experiences, if we

01:10:31.260 --> 01:10:32.260
want to call it flashy.

01:10:32.260 --> 01:10:35.620
Yeah, I mean, this happened all spontaneous for me.

01:10:35.620 --> 01:10:39.100
I was just an ignorant kid born in New Jersey.

01:10:39.100 --> 01:10:41.360
That's pretty bland.

01:10:41.360 --> 01:10:43.060
That's pretty normal.

01:10:43.060 --> 01:10:45.860
And why it came to me, I don't know.

01:10:45.860 --> 01:10:50.740
One can only conjure up maybe from a past life, I've done all this work and blah, blah, blah,

01:10:50.740 --> 01:10:53.340
blah, blah, but who knows in reality, I don't know.

01:10:53.340 --> 01:10:55.580
David: Well, you know, you get what you need.

01:10:55.580 --> 01:11:00.540
And some people need experiences like this, it's important for them to have experiences

01:11:00.540 --> 01:11:01.540
like this.

01:11:01.540 --> 01:11:04.980
And certainly everyone would like to have experiences like this, but I'm just trying to emphasize

01:11:04.980 --> 01:11:08.940
that if you're not having experiences like this, those who are listening, don't feel

01:11:08.940 --> 01:11:09.940
bad about it.

01:11:09.940 --> 01:11:13.940
Get on to a good spiritual practice and path and just keep on truckin'.

01:11:13.940 --> 01:11:18.980
And know that it's true. Just know that it's true and be curious. Just be curious.

01:11:18.980 --> 01:11:21.220
Seek and you shall find.

01:11:21.220 --> 01:11:24.100
Yeah, and knock on the door will be open. But you know, for me,

01:11:24.100 --> 01:11:30.660
it came from that moment of crisis with Jesus. The words that I said out loud,

01:11:30.660 --> 01:11:35.300
I didn't share this, but the words that I said out loud in that moment before Jesus entered

01:11:35.300 --> 01:11:40.980
was, "Please, God, just let me die. I can't take this anymore."

01:11:40.980 --> 01:11:42.820
Pete: Because you're so broke and miserable.

01:11:42.820 --> 01:11:50.900
Barbara: I was so broke and miserable. I didn't realize "let me die" was the beginning of the

01:11:50.900 --> 01:11:58.980
death of the egoic structure. That's the real death that occurs. And it's painful and difficult,

01:11:58.980 --> 01:12:05.380
and anybody who's on this earth at this time, it's amazing that you're here and you should feel,

01:12:05.380 --> 01:12:09.540
you know, whatever you're doing in the world, know that it's important. I don't care what you're

01:12:09.540 --> 01:12:14.660
doing. I don't care if you're washing dishes. It's all very important because you are carrying

01:12:14.660 --> 01:12:21.140
with you the Holy Grail. You carry the Holy Grail in you. I don't care if you're depressed,

01:12:21.140 --> 01:12:25.620
if you're anxious, if you're happy, if you're sad, if you're lonely, if you've got a great

01:12:25.620 --> 01:12:30.180
relationship, you carry the Holy Grail within you. Everyone does.

01:12:30.180 --> 01:12:32.900
David Everybody's got it on their minds these days,

01:12:32.900 --> 01:12:39.540
you know, with the wars in Ukraine and Israel-Gaza and so on. You know, it's interesting to contemplate

01:12:39.540 --> 01:12:44.660
those in light of experiences like yours and think, you know, for God's sake, I mean,

01:12:44.660 --> 01:12:49.940
these people are fighting and killing each other and here they are, these divine beings,

01:12:49.940 --> 01:12:53.620
not recognizing their divinity and beating the hell out of each other.

01:12:53.620 --> 01:12:56.420
This is why it's important to wake up.

01:12:56.420 --> 01:13:02.060
And anybody who hears this, you've already begun the process.

01:13:02.060 --> 01:13:05.540
If you're hearing this, you're already in it.

01:13:05.540 --> 01:13:06.540
It is significant.

01:13:06.540 --> 01:13:07.540
It's already happening.

01:13:07.540 --> 01:13:11.780
If you're even aware that such a thing is possible, that's a big step.

01:13:11.780 --> 01:13:16.140
Well, yes, that's your consciousness saying, "I want to know itself."

01:13:16.140 --> 01:13:20.940
So if you even hear this, you're already on the path, because I didn't know any of this.

01:13:20.940 --> 01:13:24.940
I never heard these words, you know, before my spontaneous awakening.

01:13:24.940 --> 01:13:28.940
And the reason I wrote the book, Out of the Blue, was because,

01:13:28.940 --> 01:13:31.940
you know, I went through a lot of karma, including physical karma.

01:13:31.940 --> 01:13:34.940
And in 2006, I died of a major heart attack.

01:13:34.940 --> 01:13:38.940
In fact, it was the widow maker, where the main artery shut down.

01:13:38.940 --> 01:13:41.940
And I happened to be with my grandson at the time.

01:13:41.940 --> 01:13:46.940
We were at a lake, very close to the house that I lived in with my daughter at the time.

01:13:46.940 --> 01:13:49.100
And I felt really sick.

01:13:49.100 --> 01:13:51.100
I didn't realize what was happening to me.

01:13:51.100 --> 01:13:52.980
And I felt this vice in my back

01:13:52.980 --> 01:13:54.540
and I thought maybe I have food poisoning.

01:13:54.540 --> 01:13:56.140
I started to feel nauseous

01:13:56.140 --> 01:13:57.420
'cause I had my grandson with me.

01:13:57.420 --> 01:13:58.460
I called my daughter and I said,

01:13:58.460 --> 01:13:59.860
"Look, I think I have to go to the hospital.

01:13:59.860 --> 01:14:01.460
"I think I have food poisoning."

01:14:01.460 --> 01:14:03.020
She calls our neighbor.

01:14:03.020 --> 01:14:05.060
Our neighbor is an EMT.

01:14:05.060 --> 01:14:06.740
Our neighbor, our good friends,

01:14:06.740 --> 01:14:09.660
is in charge of all the ambulances in the area.

01:14:09.660 --> 01:14:11.060
She calls him and says,

01:14:11.060 --> 01:14:13.380
"I think my mother's sick with food poisoning."

01:14:13.380 --> 01:14:17.640
And he intuitively somehow knew it was a heart attack.

01:14:17.640 --> 01:14:22.020
He called up the ambulances in the area to come to me

01:14:22.020 --> 01:14:24.080
because he was in charge of them.

01:14:24.080 --> 01:14:27.340
And she got to me along with the police.

01:14:27.340 --> 01:14:30.060
The ambulance got there like two seconds later.

01:14:30.060 --> 01:14:34.240
I get into the ambulance and I'm slipping away.

01:14:34.240 --> 01:14:35.740
I'm slipping away from this life

01:14:35.740 --> 01:14:38.260
and the window of light shows up as I'm dying.

01:14:38.260 --> 01:14:40.840
I don't realize I'm dying of a heart attack, by the way.

01:14:40.840 --> 01:14:42.600
The window of light shows up and I thought,

01:14:42.600 --> 01:14:45.240
"Oh, it's God again, I guess everything's okay."

01:14:45.240 --> 01:14:48.400
And I could hear them say, "We're losing her."

01:14:48.400 --> 01:14:50.880
And I completely went into the void.

01:14:50.880 --> 01:14:53.440
I had no consciousness then.

01:14:53.440 --> 01:14:56.500
That ambulance met up with another ambulance

01:14:56.500 --> 01:14:59.000
on the way that had critical care equipment in it,

01:14:59.000 --> 01:15:00.540
transferred me into that.

01:15:00.540 --> 01:15:03.120
It was my friend, my neighbor, Ben,

01:15:03.120 --> 01:15:07.120
who drove that ambulance to the hospital on the way,

01:15:07.120 --> 01:15:09.160
calling the cardiologist

01:15:09.160 --> 01:15:11.420
because he had all these contacts, right?

01:15:11.420 --> 01:15:17.820
saying this was the situation, be ready to receive her, get to the ambulance, the emergency room door,

01:15:17.820 --> 01:15:23.900
opens the back, I go into cardiac arrest, he grabs the paddles, shocks me back, which I have no memory

01:15:23.900 --> 01:15:31.020
of, although he said I did try to punch him, and wheels me in and says to the cardiologist,

01:15:31.020 --> 01:15:36.380
"You better not let her die because she's a good friend of mine." And I said, "Well, what did he

01:15:36.380 --> 01:15:41.180
saying he goes he didn't say anything he just smiled. They saved my life and I

01:15:41.180 --> 01:15:45.820
lived through all of that miraculously. I was in the intensive care unit for three

01:15:45.820 --> 01:15:51.460
days completely unconscious and I woke up to my daughter and I think her husband

01:15:51.460 --> 01:15:56.340
repeating the mantra to me to wake me up and the mantra she was repeating is a

01:15:56.340 --> 01:16:00.340
very common mantra called Om Namah Shivaya. Most people know this mantra and

01:16:00.340 --> 01:16:03.920
I woke up to her saying that saying those words those the first words I

01:16:03.920 --> 01:16:09.440
heard. And then I had a two bit and everything and I'm trying to get free from the being tied down.

01:16:09.440 --> 01:16:14.880
I was saying the word Nicholas, my grandson, I was worried about my grandson. And she goes,

01:16:14.880 --> 01:16:20.960
don't worry, he's fine. He's fine. And I slipped back in. You know, finally, I did wake up on the

01:16:20.960 --> 01:16:26.880
third day. So this was 2006. And the reason that I decided to write this book, because it took me a

01:16:26.880 --> 01:16:32.880
year to recover was because in 2000 when my grandson was born, when he was one month old

01:16:32.880 --> 01:16:39.040
in a dream, I walked over to the crib, he was lying on his back and he was emanating all this light

01:16:39.040 --> 01:16:46.480
and he said, "God is consciousness. I am consciousness. Everything is consciousness.

01:16:46.480 --> 01:16:52.320
The people need to know. I'm glad you're here with me, Mary. I like the name Mary."

01:16:52.320 --> 01:16:53.160
- Nice.

01:16:53.160 --> 01:16:54.000
- And so--

01:16:54.000 --> 01:16:57.280
- Well, I better write a book 'cause I might die again.

01:16:57.280 --> 01:16:58.400
- Well, exactly.

01:16:58.400 --> 01:16:59.540
And I thought, oh my God,

01:16:59.540 --> 01:17:02.640
I don't know if I'm going to live much longer.

01:17:02.640 --> 01:17:04.560
I have to write down these experiences.

01:17:04.560 --> 01:17:07.840
And I did write the book and self-published it.

01:17:07.840 --> 01:17:11.040
Six years later, it made its way to Wayne Dyer.

01:17:11.040 --> 01:17:13.400
He read the chapter on self-realization,

01:17:13.400 --> 01:17:14.880
said it was the best explanation

01:17:14.880 --> 01:17:16.480
of self-realization he's ever heard.

01:17:16.480 --> 01:17:18.920
He invited me to his Divine Love Seminar.

01:17:18.920 --> 01:17:21.040
And then he had Hay House publish the book.

01:17:21.040 --> 01:17:27.200
Unfortunately, Wayne died three months before the book came out. He died in August, it came out in

01:17:27.200 --> 01:17:31.920
November. And because he was the one promoting the book, there was no one at Hay House to promote it,

01:17:31.920 --> 01:17:37.840
so it just kind of died on the shelves. And I finally got the publishing rights back about six

01:17:37.840 --> 01:17:42.960
years later, so I've been looking for a publisher to republish it in a way. That's what happened

01:17:42.960 --> 01:17:48.160
with the book, but it did get published. And so anyway, the thing I also want to talk about is

01:17:48.160 --> 01:17:51.920
what happened to me about 14 years after my Jesus experience.

01:17:51.920 --> 01:17:55.520
A few questions came in from listeners. You want to do those or you want to...

01:17:55.520 --> 01:17:56.080
Let's do that.

01:17:56.080 --> 01:17:58.480
Okay, we'll do that and then we'll come back to this.

01:17:58.480 --> 01:18:02.320
The first question is from Rin Eser from Turkey.

01:18:02.320 --> 01:18:06.960
Is initiation necessary for experiencing deeper states of consciousness?

01:18:06.960 --> 01:18:11.680
I read and I joined satsangs for many years now and I don't see any change in me.

01:18:11.680 --> 01:18:17.520
Great question. I don't know how to answer that. I know I needed a teacher.

01:18:17.520 --> 01:18:21.920
I don't know what other souls need, but that's what I needed.

01:18:21.920 --> 01:18:27.420
And I wasn't aware of what I was seeking other than I wanted to find a pair of eyes.

01:18:27.420 --> 01:18:31.520
I'm not even sure that I called it a spiritual teacher, but it just came to me.

01:18:31.520 --> 01:18:32.720
It just happened.

01:18:32.720 --> 01:18:36.420
So I would say just keep doing your practices.

01:18:36.420 --> 01:18:39.220
And if you're seeking a teacher, ask.

01:18:39.220 --> 01:18:43.720
I want to find someone who can help me and maybe that will work.

01:18:43.720 --> 01:18:44.120
I don't know.

01:18:44.120 --> 01:18:49.280
that's how it happened to me, but I have no formula, but you're already on a path and

01:18:49.280 --> 01:18:53.760
whatever comes will come to you, that is supposed to come to you.

01:18:53.760 --> 01:18:58.040
And to know that you carry the grail within you and it's there.

01:18:58.040 --> 01:19:01.720
And I would add, find yourself a spiritual practice, some form of meditation.

01:19:01.720 --> 01:19:03.680
This is my own recommendation.

01:19:03.680 --> 01:19:07.600
It seems to work for you and work means it actually should be enjoyable.

01:19:07.600 --> 01:19:08.920
It shouldn't be a chore.

01:19:08.920 --> 01:19:12.480
You should actually look forward to doing it twice a day or whatever.

01:19:12.480 --> 01:19:17.120
And if you don't find it enjoyable and you don't want to do it, then look around a little

01:19:17.120 --> 01:19:21.640
bit more because there are things out there that you will enjoy and that you will be easily

01:19:21.640 --> 01:19:22.640
do regularly.

01:19:22.640 --> 01:19:28.560
I mean, I've been meditating regularly for 55 years and that you'll benefit from.

01:19:28.560 --> 01:19:30.800
Don't just read books and listen to YouTube videos.

01:19:30.800 --> 01:19:31.800
You got to do some practice.

01:19:31.800 --> 01:19:33.440
Yeah, that's a great, great.

01:19:33.440 --> 01:19:35.000
Okay, another question.

01:19:35.000 --> 01:19:40.960
This is from Satvik S. Is it just an experience for you or are you in that state all the time

01:19:40.960 --> 01:19:41.960
now?

01:19:41.960 --> 01:19:44.460
(laughing)

01:19:44.460 --> 01:19:47.540
I wish I were in the state of Brahman all the time.

01:19:47.540 --> 01:19:49.340
- You must be in some, I mean,

01:19:49.340 --> 01:19:50.620
obviously you're a different person

01:19:50.620 --> 01:19:52.580
than you were 50 years ago.

01:19:52.580 --> 01:19:55.420
- I'm aware that I'm not in the state of Brahman.

01:19:55.420 --> 01:19:59.620
I'm aware that I am in the state of egoic structure.

01:19:59.620 --> 01:20:01.260
However, that's not what I focus on.

01:20:01.260 --> 01:20:04.460
I focus on my thoughts every day,

01:20:04.460 --> 01:20:07.740
from moment to moment, remembering the true state,

01:20:07.740 --> 01:20:09.780
just remembering that within me.

01:20:09.780 --> 01:20:12.720
just remembering it and that practice of remembering.

01:20:12.720 --> 01:20:16.340
And I'm not in that state of union,

01:20:16.340 --> 01:20:20.280
but I know that that is my natural state for sure.

01:20:20.280 --> 01:20:23.400
And that I do my best to do practices

01:20:23.400 --> 01:20:26.000
and to function in this state of egoic issues

01:20:26.000 --> 01:20:28.160
without being too reactive to the world.

01:20:28.160 --> 01:20:30.600
- Do you feel a fair degree of contentment all the time?

01:20:30.600 --> 01:20:31.560
- Yes, yes I do.

01:20:31.560 --> 01:20:32.400
- So you're not like thinking,

01:20:32.400 --> 01:20:34.240
"Oh my God, I'm not in this state of union."

01:20:34.240 --> 01:20:35.320
- No, no, no.

01:20:35.320 --> 01:20:39.600
Yes, life goes up and down and we all have challenges,

01:20:39.600 --> 01:20:42.160
But I don't stray far from that state.

01:20:42.160 --> 01:20:44.540
I don't stray far from it, but I'm very aware

01:20:44.540 --> 01:20:46.400
that I'm not in that state.

01:20:46.400 --> 01:20:47.240
- Okay, well that's good to be--

01:20:47.240 --> 01:20:49.340
- But maybe I'm here just to talk about it.

01:20:49.340 --> 01:20:52.220
- Yeah, it's good to be real and humble about it.

01:20:52.220 --> 01:20:53.060
Question three.

01:20:53.060 --> 01:20:54.600
- Thank you, thank you for that question.

01:20:54.600 --> 01:20:56.500
- Yeah, this is from the same guy.

01:20:56.500 --> 01:20:58.200
If there is not individuality,

01:20:58.200 --> 01:21:01.700
then how did you differentiate between you and the monk?

01:21:01.700 --> 01:21:03.820
I think it's kind of like what I was asking you before.

01:21:03.820 --> 01:21:06.340
You know, he's saying, well, if there is no individuality,

01:21:06.340 --> 01:21:08.420
how did you know that I am this monk

01:21:08.420 --> 01:21:11.580
who is someone, some being is talking to me

01:21:11.580 --> 01:21:13.220
who is some other being.

01:21:13.220 --> 01:21:15.580
- Yeah, this is so hard to understand.

01:21:15.580 --> 01:21:17.460
- It's kind of what we were going around about

01:21:17.460 --> 01:21:18.300
a little while ago. - Yeah, it was kind of

01:21:18.300 --> 01:21:19.120
what we were going around about

01:21:19.120 --> 01:21:20.100
if you listen to that again,

01:21:20.100 --> 01:21:24.180
but you're not identifying as a separate individual

01:21:24.180 --> 01:21:27.220
and you realize that other people aren't separate individuals

01:21:27.220 --> 01:21:30.680
but on this earth, on this plane,

01:21:30.680 --> 01:21:34.140
we have these constructs called bodies.

01:21:34.140 --> 01:21:37.660
But when you realize your oneness,

01:21:37.660 --> 01:21:43.060
You're interacting with people from a state of oneness, rather than just looking at their

01:21:43.060 --> 01:21:46.420
body and interacting that way with them.

01:21:46.420 --> 01:21:49.300
Yes, this is a creation and we have it.

01:21:49.300 --> 01:21:51.380
You're in the world, but not of the world.

01:21:51.380 --> 01:21:53.060
That's the best way I can explain it.

01:21:53.060 --> 01:21:57.260
I think the wave and ocean analogy would be handy here, because the wave can say, "Okay,

01:21:57.260 --> 01:22:00.780
I'm this wave and I see that wave over there, but hey, we're the same ocean."

01:22:00.780 --> 01:22:01.780
The same, yeah.

01:22:01.780 --> 01:22:06.300
So we're fundamentally just one, and yet we have a wavy nature, and I seem to be functioning

01:22:06.300 --> 01:22:10.460
as this way when you're functioning is that way but we're really the same. But when you interact

01:22:10.460 --> 01:22:16.220
with people you're interacting if the other person is interacting on that level where you know you're

01:22:16.220 --> 01:22:23.180
Brahman, interacting with Brahman, you feel that state very much, very much so, you do feel that.

01:22:23.180 --> 01:22:28.460
And it's delightful, it's joyful and you try to be helpful then in the world. There's another

01:22:28.460 --> 01:22:34.300
verse in the Gita which says contact with Brahman is infinite joy. It is, it is, it's why I can tell

01:22:34.300 --> 01:22:39.020
you that much. It's infinite and it's ever new. It's just unfolding. It's like this

01:22:39.020 --> 01:22:46.300
it's like that. It's wonderful. Okay, one more question from the same fellow, Satvik S.

01:22:46.300 --> 01:22:52.220
You know you were referring earlier to a gap between thoughts and gap between breaths.

01:22:52.220 --> 01:22:57.820
Yes. And he's asking well how can you be in that gap between breaths or thoughts? How to get there?

01:22:57.820 --> 01:23:03.740
Well it's a state. State. It's a state. It's a state of uh Brahman is what it is. It's a state

01:23:03.740 --> 01:23:07.900
of full realization, a state of the now. So, there is no past or future.

01:23:07.900 --> 01:23:08.220
This is just...

01:23:08.220 --> 01:23:10.540
I guess he's saying, "Sounds good to me. How do I do it?"

01:23:10.540 --> 01:23:18.300
Focus on the space between your breaths. Focus on the space between your thoughts

01:23:18.300 --> 01:23:20.380
and let that space broaden a little bit.

01:23:20.380 --> 01:23:26.060
You know that word "turiya", I'm sure you're familiar with, means "fourth". And it's kind of

01:23:26.060 --> 01:23:31.420
said that "turiya" is like glimpsed in the gaps between waking, dreaming, and sleeping,

01:23:31.420 --> 01:23:38.380
between thoughts, between breaths, but eventually it becomes a continuum that is there as you go

01:23:38.380 --> 01:23:43.180
through the cycles of waking, dreaming, sleeping, or breathing, or thinking, or whatever. It just

01:23:43.180 --> 01:23:48.940
underlies. You can almost think of it like a tone where maybe initially the tone just comes as a

01:23:48.940 --> 01:23:54.940
beep and then here it is beep, but eventually it becomes a continual tone, but it's not really a

01:23:54.940 --> 01:23:59.740
tone. I'm using that as an analogy. And you don't actually have to pay attention. You don't even

01:23:59.740 --> 01:24:03.900
have to remind yourself that the tone is going all the time. In fact, it's in the background and

01:24:03.900 --> 01:24:07.980
you're going about your activities, but if you care to, you could always check it. Oh yeah,

01:24:07.980 --> 01:24:13.900
tone's still there. I'm using the tone as an analogy or metaphor for consciousness or Brahman,

01:24:13.900 --> 01:24:21.260
if you will. It becomes an abiding continuum, but it's not like blam in your face all the time

01:24:21.260 --> 01:24:26.780
where you can't function. It's just a sort of a foundation or a background in the midst of whatever

01:24:26.780 --> 01:24:31.100
else you're doing. So you were going to tell us something earlier and then I did the questions.

01:24:31.100 --> 01:24:34.060
Next crisis in my life that changed me.

01:24:34.060 --> 01:24:35.260
For a dull moment, huh?

01:24:35.260 --> 01:24:42.620
Never a dull moment in this life or in anybody's life really. 14 years later, I found myself with a

01:24:42.620 --> 01:24:50.540
diagnosis of Hashimoto's thyroid and my thyroid was failing and it was diagnosed as an autoimmune

01:24:50.540 --> 01:24:56.060
disease and I was given a drug to take. What does it do to you? Does it make you

01:24:56.060 --> 01:25:02.700
sleep all the time. You start gaining weight, you don't feel energetic, you feel really weak,

01:25:02.700 --> 01:25:08.540
your mind is not clear, you just feel tired, you're going up the stairs and you can hardly breathe,

01:25:08.540 --> 01:25:15.260
you know, it's just wipes you out, that kind of experience. And I was also losing my eyebrows,

01:25:15.260 --> 01:25:19.580
and I thought I needed to go to a dermatologist because I was losing my eyebrows, like why am I

01:25:19.580 --> 01:25:24.300
losing my eyebrows? That's another symptom. So I go to the dermatologist and she said,

01:25:24.300 --> 01:25:26.780
"Have you ever been tested for your thyroid?"

01:25:26.780 --> 01:25:28.460
"That's a thyroid issue."

01:25:28.460 --> 01:25:29.740
"You might have Hashimoto's."

01:25:29.740 --> 01:25:32.700
So I got tested for Hashimoto's and sure enough, I didn't.

01:25:32.700 --> 01:25:36.060
Then they gave me the typical drug that went Synthroid.

01:25:36.060 --> 01:25:39.500
And when I took the drug, it made me so sick and I felt even worse.

01:25:39.500 --> 01:25:43.660
So I thought, "I need to find a different way."

01:25:43.660 --> 01:25:47.340
"I have to find something else that's going to work for me because this isn't working."

01:25:47.340 --> 01:25:49.740
So I said a prayer, a deep prayer.

01:25:49.740 --> 01:25:52.300
"Look, Brahmin, teacher, whatever."

01:25:52.300 --> 01:25:59.420
I know you know the answer to what I need and I know by now that this lack of function has an emotional

01:25:59.420 --> 01:26:05.980
component to it because Jesus told me about disease a long time ago and that if things

01:26:05.980 --> 01:26:12.700
get stuck in your mind emotions they'll show up in your physical body as a disease we'll call it that.

01:26:12.700 --> 01:26:18.140
So I knew by then and I said I want to understand what's going on behind this and I want a cure.

01:26:18.140 --> 01:26:23.580
So the very next day I go to work and I tell this to my colleague and she turns around and hands me a

01:26:23.580 --> 01:26:28.780
flyer and she goes, "Ah, then you're going to need homeopathic medicine." I'm like, "Homeopathic? What

01:26:28.780 --> 01:26:34.300
the heck is that?" And I knew with the energy that was shown to me that this is the answer.

01:26:34.300 --> 01:26:38.780
I asked the question, this is the answer. Okay, follow the answer. Pick up the phone. We then

01:26:38.780 --> 01:26:43.580
had still had rotary dials and I called a practitioner and I said, "I have to see you. I

01:26:43.580 --> 01:26:47.500
want to see you." She said, "I'm going to send you some forms. You fill them out and meet me in such

01:26:47.500 --> 01:26:53.100
at such a time. So I fill out the forms and part of the forms was, she's a registered nurse by the way

01:26:53.100 --> 01:27:00.940
and a homeopath, and the forms included that I had to write a timeline of all the never well since

01:27:00.940 --> 01:27:07.820
events in my life from in utero when my mother was pregnant with me throughout my life. The

01:27:07.820 --> 01:27:13.820
significant events, the traumas, like you lost your dog, you had to move, I had this and whatever,

01:27:13.820 --> 01:27:18.780
I got a divorce, I got married and there was worse, you know, whatever the never well since events in

01:27:18.780 --> 01:27:24.700
your life were, car accident, whatever. So I did that and I called my mother up because my mother

01:27:24.700 --> 01:27:29.820
was still alive at that time and I said, "I have a question for you. Did anything significant happen

01:27:29.820 --> 01:27:35.740
to you when you were pregnant with me?" And she said, "Yes, as a matter of fact, when I was eight

01:27:35.740 --> 01:27:42.860
months pregnant with you, my mother, who was my very best friend and support in this world,

01:27:42.860 --> 01:27:50.860
died. And I never got over it. And I thought, "Okay, thanks." I showed this whole timeline,

01:27:50.860 --> 01:27:57.340
I did this interview with a homeopath. It was the most enlightening experience as I looked at all the

01:27:57.340 --> 01:28:03.420
never well since events in my life. They all involved relationships, failed relationships,

01:28:03.420 --> 01:28:08.700
I could never find the right partner. It always ended up in a mess. You know, it was just a mess.

01:28:08.700 --> 01:28:15.180
And so she said to me, "What is the worst thing that ever happened to you?" And I said, "My mother

01:28:15.180 --> 01:28:21.100
left when I was 11 years old." There's that mother loss again, right? And then she said, "Do you have

01:28:21.100 --> 01:28:27.020
any recurrent dreams?" I said, "Yes, I've always had this dream of the ocean coming over me."

01:28:27.020 --> 01:28:32.460
And just as I was about to hit anxiety, and I was like, "Oh my God!" And it was always a recurrent

01:28:32.460 --> 01:28:36.820
and dream. And then she gave me a remedy to take. And I took this

01:28:36.820 --> 01:28:40.060
remedy. I remember standing at the kitchen looking out the

01:28:40.060 --> 01:28:43.540
window, and I put that was in water and I took a teaspoon of

01:28:43.540 --> 01:28:48.020
the remedy in my mouth. As soon as I took a teaspoon of that in

01:28:48.020 --> 01:28:52.500
my mouth, my consciousness went out into the void. And in the

01:28:52.500 --> 01:28:56.740
void, I saw this twinkling little light like a star. And I

01:28:56.740 --> 01:29:00.020
go, Oh, that's where my energy stuck. And then I saw another

01:29:00.020 --> 01:29:03.180
twinkling light. Oh, that's the remedy. And it looks like the

01:29:03.180 --> 01:29:07.300
same thing is this. This looks like this. And it went like

01:29:07.300 --> 01:29:12.100
this and it exploded. And I went flying back into my body. And I

01:29:12.100 --> 01:29:16.340
went, Oh my god, that's like yours. Like, that's how

01:29:16.340 --> 01:29:19.940
homeopathy works. It works on the level of consciousness, where

01:29:19.940 --> 01:29:23.260
you're stuck mentally, emotionally. And that's how it

01:29:23.260 --> 01:29:27.280
works. Oh my god, it was like this download of understanding I

01:29:27.280 --> 01:29:33.040
have to study this because I see how important it is to myself and for my family. When I asked her

01:29:33.040 --> 01:29:39.680
about the remedy, and I read about the remedy in the book written by Catherine Coulter called

01:29:39.680 --> 01:29:44.320
Portraits of Homeopathic Medicines, the Psychophysical Analysis of Selected Constitutional

01:29:44.320 --> 01:29:50.480
Types. And I read about this remedy and the remedy was Nat Muir, Nat Muir's table salt,

01:29:51.120 --> 01:29:57.520
homeopathic remedies and it's not herbal medicine, when that salt is so highly diluted,

01:29:57.520 --> 01:30:05.200
as you can think of it on a continuum of material, into the essence of consciousness, non-material,

01:30:05.200 --> 01:30:10.640
so it's this continuum. So you highly dilute it and highly dilute it so there's no more molecules

01:30:10.640 --> 01:30:16.640
that you can see from it, but it still exists on a data level and an informational level.

01:30:17.200 --> 01:30:23.760
Nat Muir was the remedy and it is the law of which is innate within us which is like yours like.

01:30:23.760 --> 01:30:29.760
I asked her about the remedy, I read about the remedy. The remedy has a stuck emotional

01:30:29.760 --> 01:30:38.000
mind to it. They call it a delusion or a fixed idea and the fixed idea or delusion of Nat Muir is

01:30:38.000 --> 01:30:44.320
the mother is dead. I went, oh my god, that's what happened. It's a grief remedy about relationships.

01:30:44.320 --> 01:30:52.400
so that when my mother was pregnant with me, her grief was imprinted upon me that the mother is dead.

01:30:52.400 --> 01:30:56.800
And that has to do with relationships, whether it's the mother is dead physically,

01:30:56.800 --> 01:31:02.160
or the nurturing is dead. I was imprinted with that. So when I came out of the womb,

01:31:02.160 --> 01:31:09.280
I kept repeating the lack of relationship, personal relationship throughout that was not nurturing.

01:31:09.280 --> 01:31:16.480
so I could never get free from it, and we can call it karma, until I took the remedy and it started to

01:31:16.480 --> 01:31:24.240
unwind this samskara of this thought and emotions that was layered upon me, this deep grief

01:31:24.240 --> 01:31:30.880
that I held for 56 years, because that's when I found homeopathy. And when I took the remedy that

01:31:30.880 --> 01:31:37.440
night, I had a dream, and in the dream I met someone who was sort of like a representative

01:31:37.440 --> 01:31:42.640
of all my failed relationships and we kind of sorted it out with what, "Oh, I'm sorry, yeah,

01:31:42.640 --> 01:31:46.880
it was just a misunderstanding. Oh, yeah, I understand. It's okay. We're friends."

01:31:46.880 --> 01:31:51.440
And I had the dream. So I'd be beginning my healing and from that time on, I never had that

01:31:51.440 --> 01:31:58.320
recurrent dream of the ocean, ocean is emotions, being overwhelmed by these emotions. So I never

01:31:58.320 --> 01:32:04.240
had that happen again. And I began my healing path, whereas I took the remedy over time,

01:32:04.240 --> 01:32:10.160
these emotions of past grief of relationship would come up, I would sob and then sob it out.

01:32:10.160 --> 01:32:15.200
I would cry it out and I'd feel so much better and so much lighter. So you could say that homeopathic

01:32:15.200 --> 01:32:21.200
medicine almost on a consciousness level helps to remove the some scars in the sense that the

01:32:21.200 --> 01:32:28.560
Kundalini does to remove. And so I didn't take Synthroid anymore, I did find a natural pig

01:32:28.560 --> 01:32:33.600
substitute, Armour Thyroid is called. I started taking that and over the years I need less and

01:32:33.600 --> 01:32:40.560
and less and less and less of it. So now I may take one in a week and I don't even know if I need that.

01:32:40.560 --> 01:32:46.640
And it just cleared out this whole grief and the way I held grief and all of this. So it was the

01:32:46.640 --> 01:32:53.040
clearance of all this karma. So you could say on a higher level and the most esoteric level

01:32:53.040 --> 01:33:00.240
of homeopathic medicine, it helps to remove some scars so that you can freely flow this

01:33:00.240 --> 01:33:06.560
and restores inner harmony on a mental emotional level so that you can experience your divine

01:33:06.560 --> 01:33:14.000
nature in an unimpended way, in an easier way. And so I went on to study it and it cured me of,

01:33:14.000 --> 01:33:18.640
I had recurring bronchitis, it cleared that out which has to do with the lungs and the lungs have

01:33:18.640 --> 01:33:24.160
to do with grief and so I cleared out all the bronchitis, I cleared out my constant problem with

01:33:24.160 --> 01:33:32.560
colds and all of that. And so, so began my journey into homeopathic medicine, which I later found out

01:33:32.560 --> 01:33:39.280
was, and I went back to school with the doctor, an MD, who I trained with for three years, and along

01:33:39.280 --> 01:33:45.200
with 88 other people. Homeopathic medicine was once part of our medical system in the United States. I

01:33:45.200 --> 01:33:50.480
had no idea. It was taught in our hospitals. It was taught in our medical schools. What happened?

01:33:51.120 --> 01:33:57.680
What could have happened? There was even a monument dedicated to Dr. Samuel Hahnemann, the father of

01:33:57.680 --> 01:34:03.360
homeopathic medicine, and the only doctor who has a monument to him to this day in Washington, D.C.,

01:34:03.360 --> 01:34:10.080
at Scott Circle, a mile and a half from the White House, dedicated June 21, 1900, by President

01:34:10.080 --> 01:34:17.520
McKinley and Houses of Congress, dedicated to him as the great medical reformer of the 19th century.

01:34:17.520 --> 01:34:24.800
It was so popular then because it was so well used in the prevention and cure of all communicable

01:34:24.800 --> 01:34:31.200
disease. This is how it became so popular, and it was in our institutions, and it was used,

01:34:31.200 --> 01:34:36.880
and we had doctors and hospitals across the United States at that time, and I'm thinking,

01:34:36.880 --> 01:34:44.240
"How in the world did this knowledge get lost? How did we lose this knowledge? How is it possible

01:34:44.240 --> 01:34:50.800
we could lose this knowledge. And I came to understand that Rockefeller Sr. loved homeopathy,

01:34:50.800 --> 01:34:56.000
actually, and he used it. He had two homeopathic physicians for himself and his family.

01:34:56.000 --> 01:35:01.760
He liked it, but he also owned Standard Oil. And at this point, they learned that they could create

01:35:01.760 --> 01:35:08.240
synthetic petrochemical drugs using this synthetic oil, right? And so you could create synthetic

01:35:08.240 --> 01:35:15.280
petrochemical drugs that would mimic what comes from nature. And so he was a philanthropist,

01:35:15.280 --> 01:35:18.800
so he told his son, "I want you to give equal amounts to homeopathic medicine,

01:35:18.800 --> 01:35:23.600
but I also want it for our drugs, because now if we could create synthetic drugs,

01:35:23.600 --> 01:35:27.600
we could patent them and charge a lot of money and nobody could take the information,

01:35:27.600 --> 01:35:32.160
but homeopathic drugs, you can't patent it because it's from nature. There's no

01:35:32.160 --> 01:35:38.720
particular patent on them. And so he wanted both, but the son decided no, we're just going to get

01:35:38.720 --> 01:35:44.160
rid of that because then we will just be able to have our synthetic petrochemical drugs and we won't

01:35:44.160 --> 01:35:50.640
have any competition. And so they got it out of the hospitals and they told doctors if you try to

01:35:50.640 --> 01:35:54.960
use homeopathic medicine anymore we're going to take away your license. So that's how we removed

01:35:54.960 --> 01:36:00.000
it. And then they basically said well there's nothing scientific about it, you can't prove it.

01:36:00.000 --> 01:36:04.080
Well, this is a hundred years ago, this is a hundred years ago. And of course, the science

01:36:04.080 --> 01:36:11.120
then was just in the material realm. And so we're on the precipice now of a renaissance,

01:36:11.120 --> 01:36:16.720
not only in the system of medicine, but in all the systems, we're in big, huge paradigm shifts.

01:36:16.720 --> 01:36:22.400
The only difference with homeopathy is that instead of using, if you take homeopathic medicine and

01:36:22.400 --> 01:36:26.320
material and you start breaking it down and you dilute it and dilute it and dilute it,

01:36:26.320 --> 01:36:35.320
It goes into data level, you can call it consciousness level, but we cut it off here, so that we're only in the physical body pushing around chemicals and stuff.

01:36:35.320 --> 01:36:42.320
And we forgot this part. Now we're waking up to this part to reclaim it because we have to have both.

01:36:42.320 --> 01:36:48.320
We need trauma medicine. I've used it. I still use it. And we need homeopathic medicine.

01:36:48.320 --> 01:36:51.320
Homeopathic medicine is prevention and cure.

01:36:51.320 --> 01:36:59.560
Trauma medicine is to save your life and to fix you up if you have needed surgeries. I've used it,

01:36:59.560 --> 01:37:05.480
it saved my life. We need both. And if you look at it as a duality, that this is the masculine

01:37:05.480 --> 01:37:11.160
principle with trauma medicine and that homeopathy is the feminine principle. If you bring them

01:37:11.160 --> 01:37:17.560
together, you have an amazing system of medicine and I've used it for 25 years now. And we're on

01:37:17.560 --> 01:37:23.240
the precipice of this, this because we want more, because we are consciousness. And the more you

01:37:23.240 --> 01:37:29.560
wake up to realize your consciousness, and as Jesus said, it all starts here. It has to be resolved

01:37:29.560 --> 01:37:36.600
here, otherwise it's going to show up here. As I say, you need both. So I live in both, I use both.

01:37:36.600 --> 01:37:42.840
So there comes our balance. Just like it's time to wake up from egoic structure to our divinity,

01:37:42.840 --> 01:37:48.440
right? So we're in this incredible renaissance. This is an amazing renaissance now. I actually

01:37:48.440 --> 01:37:53.240
have a quote from Joseph Campbell that I want to sort of end with. Let me ask you before you

01:37:53.240 --> 01:37:57.640
read that, did your eyebrows grow back? A little bit. Those are penciled most of the time. Yeah,

01:37:57.640 --> 01:38:02.280
I still have some. I still have a very similar thing. I hardly have any eyebrows. I read pencils

01:38:02.280 --> 01:38:07.160
eyebrows on me before interviews, but I don't have any other symptoms. I have tons of energy.

01:38:07.160 --> 01:38:12.040
That's just aging then, you know, that's the natural aging process. I was wondering if maybe

01:38:12.040 --> 01:38:15.880
I had Hashimoto's or something. Well, you don't have any symptoms. I feel just fine, you know.

01:38:15.880 --> 01:38:21.000
Yeah, you don't have any symptoms. So just, you know, we're in the renaissance of the souls.

01:38:21.000 --> 01:38:25.880
That's what we're in. Yeah. Good stuff. And as we come into our divine nature and understanding

01:38:25.880 --> 01:38:31.400
consciousness as the underpinning of everything, we will create systems that reflect that

01:38:31.400 --> 01:38:37.560
while we also have a physical world. You have to have discernment when to use both.

01:38:37.560 --> 01:38:43.000
So, Joseph Campbell, I just came across this today. He said, "The dark night of the soul

01:38:43.000 --> 01:38:51.880
comes just before revelation, when everything is lost and all seems darkness. Then comes the new

01:38:51.880 --> 01:38:59.320
life and all that is needed." And this is the precipice we are on now. So, this is the good

01:38:59.320 --> 01:39:03.960
news. We're in the midst of it. Pete I think about that all the time. We could have a whole

01:39:03.960 --> 01:39:09.620
interview about that because I feel we're on the precipice of something huge. It's not

01:39:09.620 --> 01:39:15.040
necessarily going to be a real smooth ride as we transition into it. A lot of people

01:39:15.040 --> 01:39:19.040
aren't going to make it, but hang on to your, I was going to say hang on to your hat or

01:39:19.040 --> 01:39:23.480
your seat or something, but actually more useful information or advice would be hold

01:39:23.480 --> 01:39:29.160
on to yourself. Know thyself and that'll be the best prophylactic for making it through

01:39:29.160 --> 01:39:30.160
smoothly.

01:39:30.160 --> 01:39:32.160
Mary>> Yes, this is true. This is true, Rick.

01:39:32.160 --> 01:39:36.480
Okay, Mary, well this has been a fascinating discussion. You're a great conversationalist.

01:39:36.480 --> 01:39:40.720
Your book again is out of the blue and it is in print, right? I mean, you found a publisher?

01:39:40.720 --> 01:39:42.560
I haven't found a publisher yet.

01:39:42.560 --> 01:39:43.920
Can people get it on Amazon?

01:39:43.920 --> 01:39:47.600
Some people can get some copies on Amazon. They're probably charging you more for it now,

01:39:47.600 --> 01:39:51.200
but I would love another publisher to come along and maybe scoop it up.

01:39:51.200 --> 01:39:54.880
Have you done some of the standards like Sounds True or New Harbinger?

01:39:54.880 --> 01:40:00.640
I have tried, but it's so difficult unless you have somebody. Wayne Dyer was the one who

01:40:00.640 --> 01:40:06.000
found how important it was to him. You kind of had to find someone who's already in it and can help

01:40:06.000 --> 01:40:12.000
you along. I have contacts at a few publishers. We can talk about that. Maybe something will happen.

01:40:12.000 --> 01:40:17.280
It's a pleasure talking with you, Rick. It really is so much fun to talk about these things and

01:40:17.280 --> 01:40:23.280
it's joyful, actually. It is, isn't it? Nothing I'd rather do. Me too. Pretty much. Yeah. Thank

01:40:23.280 --> 01:40:28.160
you so much. Oh, you're welcome. And thanks to those who've been listening or watching. Yeah,

01:40:28.160 --> 01:40:29.160
Yeah, thank you.

01:40:29.160 --> 01:40:33.600
There are a couple hundred of them on our live call today and there will be thousands in

01:40:33.600 --> 01:40:34.600
the coming weeks.

01:40:34.600 --> 01:40:35.600
Go ahead, what are you going to say?

01:40:35.600 --> 01:40:39.640
If people want to contact me and learn more about homeopathy, you can book a session with

01:40:39.640 --> 01:40:41.680
me from my website.

01:40:41.680 --> 01:40:45.980
So it's Conversations with Mary on my website, which is maryterhune.com.

01:40:45.980 --> 01:40:50.080
You can book either a homeopathic session with me and I can explain it and maybe give you

01:40:50.080 --> 01:40:54.680
some remedies you might be interested for prevention of colds and flus.

01:40:54.680 --> 01:40:58.880
And also, if you want to talk about spiritual matters, so you can do that too.

01:40:58.880 --> 01:40:59.880
Or all of it.

01:40:59.880 --> 01:41:00.880
Or all of it.

01:41:00.880 --> 01:41:01.880
Yeah.

01:41:01.880 --> 01:41:07.400
And I'll have links to all that on your Batcat page, so people can just click on that link.

01:41:07.400 --> 01:41:10.280
My next interview was with a friend named David Doyle.

01:41:10.280 --> 01:41:14.040
I've never met him in person, but we've been in touch for a few years.

01:41:14.040 --> 01:41:20.120
And his primary path seems to have been Qigong, and he has some pretty profound realizations

01:41:20.120 --> 01:41:24.240
too, not unlike some of the things Mary has been describing.

01:41:24.240 --> 01:41:28.480
seems like a really interesting guy. I think it'll be a fascinating conversation as was this one.

01:41:28.480 --> 01:41:31.920
Well, thanks Mary and thanks to those who've been listening or watching

01:41:31.920 --> 01:41:35.200
and we'll see you for the next one. Bye.

01:41:35.200 --> 01:41:37.200
Bye.

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