WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:03.919 My friend, welcome to the Badass Agile podcast. This week, 2 00:00:03.919 --> 00:00:07.359 I'm bringing back an old favorite. There's very few people that I brought back more 3 00:00:07.359 --> 00:00:10.955 than once. One is Karl Locksholm. The other one is 4 00:00:10.955 --> 00:00:14.315 Adam Smith. I met Adam Smith when we were working together at one of the 5 00:00:14.315 --> 00:00:17.869 big consulting firms, and there was something about him I just 6 00:00:17.869 --> 00:00:21.310 liked. I think it was because, like me, he's not terribly 7 00:00:21.310 --> 00:00:25.085 corporate. He doesn't necessarily fit in in a great 8 00:00:25.085 --> 00:00:27.505 big design firm. Where he does fit in 9 00:00:28.925 --> 00:00:32.604 is serving his customers like an artist. And I think in an age of 10 00:00:32.604 --> 00:00:36.410 AI, there's so much sameness out there that 11 00:00:36.410 --> 00:00:40.089 everything we look at is starting to look the same. And so what I 12 00:00:40.089 --> 00:00:43.710 respect about what Adam does is the integrity with which 13 00:00:44.155 --> 00:00:47.835 he treats the practice and his clients. And most 14 00:00:47.835 --> 00:00:51.460 importantly, he's an entrepreneur like me, and so 15 00:00:51.460 --> 00:00:54.900 I appreciate and respect the way he's been able to dig in and survive through 16 00:00:54.900 --> 00:00:58.500 ups and downs. And I wanna hear all about what's happened since we last saw 17 00:00:58.500 --> 00:01:01.954 him back in probably 2020 or 18 00:01:01.954 --> 00:01:05.254 2021. I'm really happy that his firm, Tension, 19 00:01:06.490 --> 00:01:10.009 has just passed its 4th year milestone. That's a 20 00:01:10.009 --> 00:01:13.369 huge achievement. So please welcome Adam Smith. Adam, how are 21 00:01:13.369 --> 00:01:17.075 you? I'm great. Thank you. How are you? I'm wonderful. It's 22 00:01:17.075 --> 00:01:20.675 nice to see you. You as well. Always. So first of all, 23 00:01:20.675 --> 00:01:24.280 congratulations on 4 years. That's a huge accomplishment. Thank you. 24 00:01:24.520 --> 00:01:28.119 And I'm curious, how has it been? Has it been everything that you 25 00:01:28.119 --> 00:01:31.659 expected? Been nothing I expected. Really? 26 00:01:31.799 --> 00:01:35.505 Yeah. You know, I I I think in the beginning, it was 27 00:01:35.505 --> 00:01:39.265 it was just all wonderful. And, you know, we had 28 00:01:39.265 --> 00:01:42.645 some really good traction. Things were going really, really well. And 29 00:01:42.780 --> 00:01:46.220 I we hit some obstacles as pretty much 30 00:01:46.220 --> 00:01:49.840 every start up or or organization does. And 31 00:01:50.220 --> 00:01:53.655 you I can look back, and at the time, I was pretty 32 00:01:54.274 --> 00:01:58.115 negative about it. But in retrospect, I think it was probably the greatest thing 33 00:01:58.115 --> 00:02:01.729 that ever happened to Tension because it forced us to 34 00:02:01.729 --> 00:02:05.490 take a real hard, long look at what we do and 35 00:02:05.490 --> 00:02:09.245 how we do it. And a few things changed. Obviously, 36 00:02:09.305 --> 00:02:13.065 we we optimized processes. We figured out how to do things better 37 00:02:13.065 --> 00:02:16.745 and faster and more efficiently. But what what's more important are the things that 38 00:02:16.745 --> 00:02:20.120 didn't change. And that is, as you said and 39 00:02:20.120 --> 00:02:23.880 mentioned, thank you very much. I'm I'm honored that you mentioned that, but it's 40 00:02:23.880 --> 00:02:27.625 our dedication to what we do. It's our love for what 41 00:02:27.625 --> 00:02:31.085 we do, and it's the care and painstaking 42 00:02:32.345 --> 00:02:35.790 detail that we put into the work that we do because we love it. We 43 00:02:35.790 --> 00:02:39.390 love the work. It is art to us and 44 00:02:39.390 --> 00:02:43.150 we love making our clients successful. I mean, that's why 45 00:02:43.150 --> 00:02:46.585 we're here. At the time, it was a lot. But in 46 00:02:46.585 --> 00:02:49.565 retrospect, it it it to be honest, it was everything, 47 00:02:50.985 --> 00:02:54.760 and reinforced why I started the company in the first place. Now you mentioned 48 00:02:55.540 --> 00:02:58.660 that when things were tough, that you're a little bit negative about it. What what 49 00:02:58.660 --> 00:03:01.895 does that mean, and what do you think you learned from it? You said that 50 00:03:01.895 --> 00:03:04.375 it was probably the best thing that ever happened to you. What was the big 51 00:03:04.375 --> 00:03:08.055 lesson? It made me take a really introspective look 52 00:03:08.055 --> 00:03:11.860 at myself, why I started this thing, why I still want to do it 53 00:03:11.860 --> 00:03:15.299 in the face of everything that we were looking at. And then it my 54 00:03:15.299 --> 00:03:18.974 desire to keep tension going and to do the work that we 55 00:03:18.974 --> 00:03:22.034 do and and to do it even better than we did before 56 00:03:22.495 --> 00:03:25.990 never wavered. The the 57 00:03:25.990 --> 00:03:29.110 roadblocks, the walls that were put in front of us, yeah, they got they got 58 00:03:29.110 --> 00:03:32.950 bigger. But even even when things felt dark, it 59 00:03:32.950 --> 00:03:36.585 was it was never a question of whether we continued. It 60 00:03:36.585 --> 00:03:40.265 was about how do we get to a point where we 61 00:03:40.265 --> 00:03:44.090 can continue. Which is usually a sign that the work is embossed in 62 00:03:44.090 --> 00:03:47.930 your soul in the sense that it doesn't matter how hard the surfing is. I'm 63 00:03:47.930 --> 00:03:51.755 going out every day Yep. And I'm gonna ride. And 64 00:03:51.755 --> 00:03:55.114 my question well, you know what a good logical question is to ask here 65 00:03:55.114 --> 00:03:58.815 is, what does tension do? Who do you do it for? 66 00:03:59.670 --> 00:04:03.270 And why would someone choose Tension? Great 67 00:04:03.270 --> 00:04:06.630 questions. So first, we are an experience and 68 00:04:06.630 --> 00:04:10.474 design agency and user experience, visual design, 69 00:04:10.474 --> 00:04:13.995 interface design. But, really, what we do is 70 00:04:13.995 --> 00:04:17.540 more strategy and more getting to the 71 00:04:17.540 --> 00:04:21.220 root of the real problems. Everything else sort of falls into 72 00:04:21.220 --> 00:04:25.045 place during that period of a year ago. I 73 00:04:25.045 --> 00:04:28.185 came to the realization that there are times now 74 00:04:28.485 --> 00:04:31.705 where I find it difficult to start 75 00:04:32.005 --> 00:04:35.600 work unless we have gone extremely 76 00:04:35.900 --> 00:04:39.420 deep into understanding who our clients are, who their 77 00:04:39.420 --> 00:04:42.895 customers are, what their objectives are, and how they want to achieve 78 00:04:42.895 --> 00:04:46.415 it. And I for a period, I was thinking back. I was like, you know, 79 00:04:46.415 --> 00:04:50.160 when I was when I was younger, just getting started, I could 80 00:04:50.160 --> 00:04:53.760 just open up a document and start designing. At first, I was like, I wish 81 00:04:53.760 --> 00:04:57.200 I could just do that again. And then I realized that, no, I can't because 82 00:04:57.200 --> 00:05:00.705 now I know what I didn't know then. I know now that if I just 83 00:05:00.705 --> 00:05:04.485 try to open something up and start designing without understanding the context, 84 00:05:04.545 --> 00:05:08.380 understanding the subtleties of the business or the, of the market, of the 85 00:05:08.380 --> 00:05:11.820 product or service we're working on, and the brand and personality of the company we're 86 00:05:11.820 --> 00:05:15.595 working with. I'm gonna do it not as well as I want to and 87 00:05:15.595 --> 00:05:19.355 not as well as our customers deserve. So when it all comes down to it, 88 00:05:19.355 --> 00:05:22.555 that's what we do. We we we dig in. You know? We have we have 89 00:05:22.555 --> 00:05:26.060 this 5 week engagement. Right? And it is 90 00:05:26.060 --> 00:05:29.900 an intensive deep dive into our customers, what their 91 00:05:29.900 --> 00:05:33.645 needs are, what their problems are, how we should solution them, so on and so 92 00:05:33.645 --> 00:05:36.945 forth. Very involved with the clients. It's very interactive, very 93 00:05:37.085 --> 00:05:40.765 collaborative. And oftentimes, we'll walk our customers through what's 94 00:05:40.765 --> 00:05:44.470 going to happen. And they're like, yeah. Sounds great. 2 weeks in, they're 95 00:05:44.470 --> 00:05:48.090 like, why do you need to know this? And I'm like, well, just 96 00:05:48.550 --> 00:05:51.705 bear with us. Yeah? We get to the end of the week, the end of 97 00:05:51.705 --> 00:05:55.324 the 5 weeks, and it's just like a light bulb goes off, and it happens 98 00:05:55.544 --> 00:05:58.925 every single time. Our clients are like, now I understand 99 00:05:59.225 --> 00:06:02.690 why we did all this. Now I understand why you needed to know these things. 100 00:06:02.690 --> 00:06:06.130 Because for us to help create an 101 00:06:06.130 --> 00:06:09.865 experience around your business and your product 102 00:06:09.865 --> 00:06:13.705 or service, we need to understand your business and product and service as 103 00:06:13.705 --> 00:06:17.545 well, hopefully, as as, you know, many of you do, at our 104 00:06:17.545 --> 00:06:21.370 clients. Probably not to the granular detail that they do, but we 105 00:06:21.370 --> 00:06:24.570 have to get pretty close. Because if we're gonna work on behalf of our clients, 106 00:06:24.570 --> 00:06:27.995 and that's what we are, we're we're we're design servants to our clients, 107 00:06:28.055 --> 00:06:31.815 right, and extensions of of them with 108 00:06:31.815 --> 00:06:35.495 design expertise. If we're not there with them and understanding as much as they do, 109 00:06:35.495 --> 00:06:38.660 then we're not we're not able to deliver it at the level that they need 110 00:06:38.660 --> 00:06:42.420 it to be delivered. Right. And in agile, we struggle with 111 00:06:42.420 --> 00:06:46.185 this stuff because we've been taught that there should be no upfront planning. There 112 00:06:46.185 --> 00:06:49.645 should be no upfront documentation. K. And yet, 113 00:06:50.104 --> 00:06:53.240 what are we what are we what spec are we building on if we don't 114 00:06:53.240 --> 00:06:56.680 understand these things about a customer? Now not to say that we should spend 6 115 00:06:56.680 --> 00:07:00.395 months planning something before we start building it. But 116 00:07:00.395 --> 00:07:04.014 nonetheless, one of the things that agile people don't get quite frequently 117 00:07:04.395 --> 00:07:07.915 is what is the business? Who is the customer? What are they what are their 118 00:07:07.915 --> 00:07:11.580 desires? What do they fear? What what is it that they 119 00:07:11.580 --> 00:07:14.940 want when they experience our product? Some people want 120 00:07:14.940 --> 00:07:18.000 nostalgia. Some people want realism or authenticity. 121 00:07:18.814 --> 00:07:22.655 Some people want a certain tactileness. Some people want pure simplicity. Just give me one 122 00:07:22.655 --> 00:07:26.495 knob, one button. And it really depends on 123 00:07:26.495 --> 00:07:30.000 the context of the customer, what they're doing, who they 124 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:33.520 trust, why they trust it or don't. Like, there's so many questions to 125 00:07:33.520 --> 00:07:37.360 answer around understanding the customer that makes future decisions so much 126 00:07:37.360 --> 00:07:40.875 easier, and I think most people miss that. 127 00:07:41.575 --> 00:07:45.415 Let me ask you this. How's your business changed since you started 128 00:07:45.415 --> 00:07:48.860 it 4 years ago given global pandemic, recession, 129 00:07:49.480 --> 00:07:52.380 all different kinds of war breaking out all over the world, 130 00:07:53.080 --> 00:07:56.440 layoffs, you know, economic trouble and pressure and 131 00:07:56.440 --> 00:08:00.194 inflation. All of these things change the nature of our business. How does it 132 00:08:00.194 --> 00:08:03.574 affect not just your business, but what you do? 133 00:08:04.194 --> 00:08:07.670 And don't forget by the way, don't forget AI. Probably the biggest single 134 00:08:07.670 --> 00:08:11.110 change. We can leave that last one to its own topic. 135 00:08:11.110 --> 00:08:14.725 But I'll be honest. The pandemic never 136 00:08:14.725 --> 00:08:18.425 really had much of an impact in terms of change 137 00:08:18.725 --> 00:08:22.265 for us because we started the company 1 week before 138 00:08:22.325 --> 00:08:26.020 lockdowns. We've always operated in a remote 139 00:08:26.160 --> 00:08:29.380 model with our clients. I think that the economic 140 00:08:30.160 --> 00:08:33.715 uncertainty over the last year, probably 141 00:08:34.095 --> 00:08:37.855 the wars as well, have led to a little bit of 142 00:08:37.855 --> 00:08:41.690 less consumer confidence with our customers. Now with the market in 143 00:08:41.690 --> 00:08:45.230 general, to be quite honest, everybody was sort of consciously 144 00:08:45.610 --> 00:08:49.405 prepping for a recession. And a recession that, for the 145 00:08:49.405 --> 00:08:53.165 most of the country, actually never really happened. It didn't really impact 146 00:08:53.165 --> 00:08:56.870 us too, too much in that respect. Most of the changes that have 147 00:08:56.870 --> 00:09:00.630 come to us over the last 12 months or so was 148 00:09:00.630 --> 00:09:03.930 a re restructuring of the founders of the company. 149 00:09:04.425 --> 00:09:07.645 My, my ex founder left in February 150 00:09:08.185 --> 00:09:11.785 of 2023, and we had a bit of 151 00:09:11.785 --> 00:09:15.380 a a change in how we wanted to to grow and how we wanted 152 00:09:15.380 --> 00:09:18.820 our team makeup to look after that. We've brought 153 00:09:18.820 --> 00:09:22.260 in pretty senior people in in in the time since 154 00:09:22.260 --> 00:09:25.975 then that, has really helped us and, frankly, 155 00:09:25.975 --> 00:09:29.515 me be able to offer better services and, you know, 156 00:09:29.815 --> 00:09:33.540 sometimes sleep well at night. I have a question for you about the 157 00:09:33.540 --> 00:09:37.060 name of your company. Tension is such a great word. Yes. In 158 00:09:37.060 --> 00:09:40.500 storytelling, which is something that I talk a lot about now and in 159 00:09:40.500 --> 00:09:44.154 communication, tension refers to the distance 160 00:09:44.154 --> 00:09:47.535 between where you are and where you wanna go. It refers to the constantly 161 00:09:47.755 --> 00:09:51.275 changing landscape of getting where you're trying to be. 162 00:09:51.275 --> 00:09:55.080 Okay. And it's what makes a story tick. Yep. If there's no tension, 163 00:09:55.080 --> 00:09:58.380 there's no roller coaster ride. It's like having a track that's completely 164 00:09:58.440 --> 00:10:01.455 flat. The tension is the hills and the anticipation 165 00:10:02.475 --> 00:10:06.235 that's released when gravity takes over and you start 166 00:10:06.235 --> 00:10:09.339 heading downhill, which is the fun part. It's the thrill part. It's the uncertainty. What 167 00:10:09.339 --> 00:10:12.120 does tension mean? Why did you choose that name for your business? There's a number 168 00:10:12.120 --> 00:10:12.993 of reasons behind it. The most important is, with what we do and and what 169 00:10:12.993 --> 00:10:14.319 we do in experience design, 170 00:10:18.225 --> 00:10:21.445 with what we do and and what we do in experience design, 171 00:10:21.825 --> 00:10:25.265 there's often a push pull between multiple 172 00:10:25.265 --> 00:10:28.870 parties or or 2 opposing objectives 173 00:10:29.089 --> 00:10:32.870 or two sides of the same coin from, for example, 174 00:10:33.490 --> 00:10:37.305 customers, business. The tension between those, it's not 175 00:10:37.305 --> 00:10:41.064 about one winning. It's not about one yanking the other. 176 00:10:41.064 --> 00:10:44.740 It's about finding that perfect balance that creates the tension 177 00:10:45.040 --> 00:10:48.560 between the 2 in the same way that the three 178 00:10:48.560 --> 00:10:52.264 points of a sail creates the tension, against the 179 00:10:52.264 --> 00:10:56.105 wind and pushes the boat forward. Mhmm. So that is a that is 180 00:10:56.105 --> 00:10:59.884 a huge thing. There's also we are generally multidisciplinary 181 00:11:00.345 --> 00:11:03.610 here at Tension and the needs and objectives 182 00:11:04.070 --> 00:11:07.910 of so many of what we do, whether it be developer 183 00:11:07.910 --> 00:11:11.265 partners that we're working with or marketers or brand strategists 184 00:11:11.485 --> 00:11:15.265 or product owners, designers, UX designers, researchers. 185 00:11:15.805 --> 00:11:19.519 We all kinda need to know the same thing, and we all 186 00:11:19.519 --> 00:11:23.040 need to start from the same place. What we do with that information is slightly 187 00:11:23.040 --> 00:11:26.880 different, but it's finding that tension between 188 00:11:26.880 --> 00:11:30.705 those multiple perspectives that allows us to create a 189 00:11:30.705 --> 00:11:34.385 single vision that works and is 190 00:11:34.385 --> 00:11:37.925 going to drive the ball forward and everyone can work together towards. 191 00:11:38.160 --> 00:11:41.760 When I think about like the researcher the research that a marketer would do 192 00:11:41.760 --> 00:11:45.575 upfront, it's very similar to research that we would do. And it 193 00:11:45.575 --> 00:11:49.335 also factors into everything that we do, whether it be a click or an interaction 194 00:11:49.335 --> 00:11:52.955 or an animation. So there is definitely that tension. 195 00:11:53.110 --> 00:11:56.950 There's also a tongue in cheek reference to things like 196 00:11:56.950 --> 00:12:00.250 working with me being tense. Is that true? 197 00:12:01.404 --> 00:12:04.845 It can be. It can be. Yeah. I'm a I'm a little bit 198 00:12:04.845 --> 00:12:08.605 dogged when I believe in something. And I'll 199 00:12:08.605 --> 00:12:12.320 push and fight for what I think is right for the business and and for 200 00:12:12.320 --> 00:12:15.680 our clients and and their clients. That's an 201 00:12:15.680 --> 00:12:18.660 interesting point because I was about to ask you, 202 00:12:19.305 --> 00:12:22.445 why does user experience or experience design 203 00:12:22.904 --> 00:12:26.665 matter? Because a lot of people would say, look. You know, I can 204 00:12:26.665 --> 00:12:30.410 get chat gpt to generate an interface. And I can 205 00:12:30.410 --> 00:12:34.170 get Canva to make me a design. Like, these things are so 206 00:12:34.170 --> 00:12:37.975 pedestrian. Why would you write a book with a pen 207 00:12:38.274 --> 00:12:42.055 when a word processor is right in front of you make it so much faster? 208 00:12:42.355 --> 00:12:45.959 Why does this why does this still matter? I think the word 209 00:12:46.420 --> 00:12:49.779 processor processor to pen, analogy is is 210 00:12:49.779 --> 00:12:52.839 really fitting. There's a tactile nature 211 00:12:53.464 --> 00:12:57.225 to user experience in, in the same way there is, a 212 00:12:57.225 --> 00:13:01.005 feeling the, the, the ball or a ballpoint pen roll over 213 00:13:01.305 --> 00:13:04.440 nice paper. Right? Can you create 214 00:13:05.380 --> 00:13:09.080 user experience? Can you create visual design through 215 00:13:09.700 --> 00:13:13.334 AI? Sure. Sure you can. But is it 216 00:13:13.334 --> 00:13:17.175 going to embody the personality? Is 217 00:13:17.175 --> 00:13:20.535 it going to embody the brand? Is it going to 218 00:13:20.535 --> 00:13:24.250 give the user and hold their hand when you know 219 00:13:24.250 --> 00:13:28.009 they particularly need to have their hands held? Not 220 00:13:28.009 --> 00:13:31.535 necessarily. There is so much more to it. And as you 221 00:13:31.535 --> 00:13:35.315 inferred right at the beginning, there it's an art and it's very much 222 00:13:35.535 --> 00:13:39.360 a unique expression, balancing the the customer, 223 00:13:39.420 --> 00:13:43.260 balancing the business, and baling balancing the objectives of the 224 00:13:43.260 --> 00:13:47.045 application. What you get with AI is a facsimile of 225 00:13:47.045 --> 00:13:50.425 the most popular other ideas that are already out there. 226 00:13:50.565 --> 00:13:54.160 Right. So it's it it it's very much an echo chamber. Mhmm. 227 00:13:54.220 --> 00:13:57.440 And if if that's all that you wanna do, like, you wanna 228 00:13:57.660 --> 00:14:00.720 copy Uber or copy some kind of an application, 229 00:14:01.655 --> 00:14:05.035 Probably gonna be enough. Sure. Is it going to 230 00:14:05.575 --> 00:14:08.715 make your customers or your users feel 231 00:14:09.175 --> 00:14:12.170 loved and appreciated? No. No. Right. 232 00:14:12.950 --> 00:14:16.310 And so so here's a question for you. I think what I'm really getting at 233 00:14:16.310 --> 00:14:19.455 because this is the essence of you is that you're 234 00:14:19.915 --> 00:14:23.595 creative. And I think in 2024 and beyond, 235 00:14:23.595 --> 00:14:27.250 creativity is gonna become more important than it ever has been. And here's why. 236 00:14:27.250 --> 00:14:30.930 Here's a perfect example. When you go on YouTube, every 237 00:14:30.930 --> 00:14:34.070 video thumbnail, every what they call a cover 238 00:14:34.745 --> 00:14:38.125 is the same thing. It's the owner of the channel 239 00:14:38.585 --> 00:14:42.265 with their mouth hanging open in some sort of mock, shock, 240 00:14:42.265 --> 00:14:45.530 and surprise gesture 241 00:14:46.230 --> 00:14:50.070 pointing at something on the screen, usually the title or a device or the 242 00:14:50.070 --> 00:14:53.825 thing that they're unwrapping or trying to sell. And 243 00:14:53.825 --> 00:14:57.505 that's what catches attention and makes people think, well, this is a glossy video. This 244 00:14:57.505 --> 00:15:01.345 is a professional. I should pay attention to this. But when all of 245 00:15:01.345 --> 00:15:05.160 the videos look the same way, aren't we 246 00:15:05.160 --> 00:15:08.779 lying to everybody? Aren't we just creating 247 00:15:09.079 --> 00:15:12.735 noise like so much stuff, so much so much, 248 00:15:14.015 --> 00:15:17.795 signal and nothing really stands out. And I think to me, the word tension 249 00:15:18.015 --> 00:15:21.769 means in this aspect, creativity going against 250 00:15:21.769 --> 00:15:24.990 the grain, doing not what others are doing 251 00:15:25.529 --> 00:15:29.310 because we know it's scientifically tested to attract attention, but rather 252 00:15:30.005 --> 00:15:33.365 doing what we believe is our truest and most 253 00:15:33.365 --> 00:15:37.065 authentic expression because that's what describes 254 00:15:37.205 --> 00:15:40.860 the brand accurately. It's honest. It's authentic. 255 00:15:41.560 --> 00:15:45.400 And it may not be faster, better, or cheaper Okay. To 256 00:15:45.400 --> 00:15:49.105 get what we're trying to do done, but it's more right. 257 00:15:49.105 --> 00:15:52.945 And I think in 2024, people want more right. What what's your opinion 258 00:15:52.945 --> 00:15:56.565 on that? Yes. That's my opinion. 259 00:15:57.650 --> 00:16:01.330 That is that is my philosophy described probably 260 00:16:01.330 --> 00:16:04.870 better than I've ever thought about it myself. It's about 261 00:16:05.415 --> 00:16:09.015 doing the right thing for regardless of what's popular, 262 00:16:09.015 --> 00:16:12.855 regardless of what's standard or the way things are normally done. None of 263 00:16:12.855 --> 00:16:16.510 those things really factor in for me because when you 264 00:16:16.510 --> 00:16:20.270 operate and I'll I'll jump back to, like, really understanding your clients. When 265 00:16:20.270 --> 00:16:23.905 you look deeply at the problems that are actually 266 00:16:23.905 --> 00:16:27.665 being faced, and you look at them holistically and 267 00:16:27.665 --> 00:16:31.510 understand the audience that are facing those problems, It's really 268 00:16:31.510 --> 00:16:35.270 difficult to just take an off the shelf solution and and try to make it 269 00:16:35.270 --> 00:16:38.950 work. What you're going to do in that scenario generally is via ripple 270 00:16:38.950 --> 00:16:42.074 effect, create more problems. So for me, 271 00:16:42.615 --> 00:16:46.214 it's it's never been about faster. It's never been about 272 00:16:46.214 --> 00:16:49.579 hypergrowth, at least for me or for, the 273 00:16:49.579 --> 00:16:53.339 organization, my organization. It's about doing what's 274 00:16:53.339 --> 00:16:57.045 right. And when you believe what you're 275 00:16:57.045 --> 00:17:00.885 doing is right, oof, it's hard to get off that train. Is that 276 00:17:00.885 --> 00:17:04.665 what's kept you going for the past 4 years? Is that, like, at this point, 277 00:17:05.359 --> 00:17:09.200 if someone said to you, you know, the entrepreneurship thing, it's not paying 278 00:17:09.200 --> 00:17:11.919 off real big. Why don't you go back to the kind of job you used 279 00:17:11.919 --> 00:17:15.684 to have? Working for someone else's agency, working working in a shop, 280 00:17:15.684 --> 00:17:19.125 working as part of a consulting business. Would you be able to go, 281 00:17:19.444 --> 00:17:23.170 I mean, it's not perfect, but sure. It's work. Or is it like, I 282 00:17:23.170 --> 00:17:26.930 can't like, dude, I can't. I I I I've spent the 283 00:17:26.930 --> 00:17:30.345 better part of my career significant better part of my career, 284 00:17:30.725 --> 00:17:34.565 independent. Mhmm. And it it allows 285 00:17:34.565 --> 00:17:38.390 us a freedom with our customers that you 286 00:17:38.390 --> 00:17:42.070 just don't get in other models. We work with 287 00:17:42.070 --> 00:17:45.750 them directly. Like, we we we talk to them directly. We talk to their 288 00:17:45.750 --> 00:17:49.485 customers. We can influence them and work with them to 289 00:17:49.485 --> 00:17:53.184 help them understand the implications and ramifications of their business. 290 00:17:53.645 --> 00:17:57.320 It's far more than what anyone 291 00:17:57.700 --> 00:18:01.000 who would hire someone as a user experience designer or, 292 00:18:01.940 --> 00:18:05.635 interface designer would allow the, audacity 293 00:18:06.174 --> 00:18:09.775 to try to solve, you know, and and we get to work on bigger, deeper 294 00:18:09.775 --> 00:18:13.360 things about this way. You know, I I was just thinking, 295 00:18:13.679 --> 00:18:17.280 and having a conversation with one of my employees today that he's 296 00:18:17.280 --> 00:18:20.980 he's been exposed to a way of working with customers 297 00:18:21.425 --> 00:18:24.725 that is just unnatural for a lot of user experience 298 00:18:24.945 --> 00:18:28.245 folks. And the expectation 299 00:18:28.625 --> 00:18:32.400 of how our ideas are received by our clients 300 00:18:33.420 --> 00:18:35.920 is is relatively unnatural, and and, 301 00:18:37.100 --> 00:18:40.825 hopefully, he never leaves. But if he does, he's in for kind of a 302 00:18:40.825 --> 00:18:43.885 rude awakening, at the next place Jim goes 303 00:18:44.265 --> 00:18:48.060 because we we work with such a level of 304 00:18:48.060 --> 00:18:51.900 trust with our customers that in the same way that in those 305 00:18:51.900 --> 00:18:54.300 first 5 weeks in the middle, they're like, I don't know what's going on, but 306 00:18:54.300 --> 00:18:57.815 let's see what happens. Once we've gotten past that, once we get into 307 00:18:57.815 --> 00:19:01.415 prototyping and testing and validating and and, they can see 308 00:19:01.415 --> 00:19:04.990 how our work is being shaped by the voices of their 309 00:19:04.990 --> 00:19:08.510 customers and their own internal processes and how that sort of 310 00:19:08.510 --> 00:19:11.965 molding and, like, evolving into a product. That 311 00:19:11.965 --> 00:19:15.325 level of trust there is really, really 312 00:19:15.325 --> 00:19:18.924 powerful. And to be honest, I think we 313 00:19:18.924 --> 00:19:22.679 have we have probably some of the best customers ever, 314 00:19:22.820 --> 00:19:26.580 but I think we've also manufactured them through our process. Yeah. 315 00:19:26.580 --> 00:19:30.405 How how so? Explain that. Oh, so because of your process. You 316 00:19:30.405 --> 00:19:33.865 know, I, I'm about as transparent and candid 317 00:19:34.085 --> 00:19:37.465 as you get. I wear my emotions on my sleeve. I, 318 00:19:37.845 --> 00:19:41.610 I try to make our our work environment enjoyable. 319 00:19:42.149 --> 00:19:45.929 I try I try to make our engagements enjoyable. We have 320 00:19:46.665 --> 00:19:49.885 candor. We have an openness. There's 321 00:19:50.265 --> 00:19:53.945 always an open ear, for our customers. Everything that they 322 00:19:53.945 --> 00:19:57.169 have concerns with, we'll we welcome. 323 00:19:57.950 --> 00:20:01.390 We address it as best as possible, and and we create this 324 00:20:01.390 --> 00:20:05.145 environment where we are just essentially, like, 325 00:20:05.365 --> 00:20:09.205 extensions of them. And we show that with our deep 326 00:20:09.205 --> 00:20:12.730 interest in how they work, how their customers 327 00:20:12.730 --> 00:20:16.409 work. You know, oftentimes, we'll we'll be in situations and I'm when I say often, 328 00:20:16.409 --> 00:20:20.215 I mean, like, 80, 90% of the the time, we're talking to our clients, 329 00:20:20.215 --> 00:20:23.595 telling them what their customers are going through and they don't know. 330 00:20:24.375 --> 00:20:27.720 They don't know. It's and it's not that they don't talk to their customers. They 331 00:20:27.720 --> 00:20:31.480 do. It's just the questions that we ask, the scenarios we 332 00:20:31.480 --> 00:20:35.195 put those customers in, just things come out. 333 00:20:35.195 --> 00:20:38.715 And we become like, when I say we're an 334 00:20:38.715 --> 00:20:42.480 extension, it very much so is, and that's a really sweet 335 00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:45.780 spot to be in. And they can see that we're working 336 00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:50.240 diligently and and with with a level of passion and care 337 00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:53.145 for their business. So those things combined 338 00:20:53.765 --> 00:20:57.605 really creates symbiotic, but it it it's it's very 339 00:20:57.605 --> 00:21:01.150 much a relationship based on trust. You know what it sounds 340 00:21:01.150 --> 00:21:04.929 like? We were speaking about tension before and the concept of a roller coaster. 341 00:21:05.070 --> 00:21:08.750 So think about one of those modern roller coasters where it's usually just like 342 00:21:08.750 --> 00:21:12.535 one, it's like one beam. You know, it's not a set of 343 00:21:12.535 --> 00:21:15.995 tracks. It's one beam. And the car 344 00:21:16.054 --> 00:21:19.809 has wheels wrapped around that railing. And it's very 345 00:21:19.809 --> 00:21:23.409 secure and it's very smooth, but it's almost like 346 00:21:23.409 --> 00:21:26.710 saying, okay. Forget the car. I want you to ride the ride on your bike. 347 00:21:27.235 --> 00:21:30.855 You know what I mean? It's the exact same ride but there's no rails. 348 00:21:31.235 --> 00:21:34.355 And so all of the tension now comes from the fact that it's up to 349 00:21:34.355 --> 00:21:38.120 you to stabilize and balance on that ride. So the freedom that 350 00:21:38.120 --> 00:21:41.640 you describe, Agilists will understand this 351 00:21:41.640 --> 00:21:45.160 natively. Many Agilists love their process. You said you had a 352 00:21:45.160 --> 00:21:48.855 process. I'm gonna bet. If I saw your process, it's a heck of a lot 353 00:21:48.855 --> 00:21:52.375 less prescriptive than even a modern 354 00:21:52.375 --> 00:21:55.595 Agile process, much less a project management process. 355 00:21:56.920 --> 00:22:00.360 And so the freedom in having a process that's 356 00:22:00.360 --> 00:22:04.200 lightweight, meaning we can make our own decisions, we're free to suggest what we want, 357 00:22:04.200 --> 00:22:08.025 we don't have to follow anything rigorous, and we certainly don't have 358 00:22:08.025 --> 00:22:11.705 to get approval from the big boss to recommend what we think is 359 00:22:11.705 --> 00:22:15.360 best for our client, means that the whole terrain is unknown. 360 00:22:16.220 --> 00:22:19.840 Unless you're being asked to repeat something, it's like that thing that you did for, 361 00:22:20.225 --> 00:22:22.965 you know, Downey. Can you do that for us too? 362 00:22:23.745 --> 00:22:27.330 Unless you're dealing with highly repetitive work, which you're not. 363 00:22:27.809 --> 00:22:30.710 Everything is a blank slate. Everything is adventure. 364 00:22:31.409 --> 00:22:35.190 Everything is risk. And the biggest challenge we have as Agilist 365 00:22:35.325 --> 00:22:39.165 is convincing other people on the team, other 366 00:22:39.165 --> 00:22:42.684 people in the organization or the leaders, the people who are paying for our 367 00:22:42.684 --> 00:22:45.720 services to just trust that process. 368 00:22:46.419 --> 00:22:50.039 And that failure and cocreation and collaboration 369 00:22:51.415 --> 00:22:55.255 is what's gonna drive us to a desirable outcome. Would you say 370 00:22:55.255 --> 00:22:58.855 that's true for your organization? And the second part of that 371 00:22:58.855 --> 00:23:02.480 question is that the future of work, would 372 00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:06.320 we be better off with less process? Because we're not we're 373 00:23:06.320 --> 00:23:10.145 not running jig saws and band saws. I'm not worrying about you cutting your 374 00:23:10.145 --> 00:23:13.665 thumb off here. It's just a question of you make a drawing and the client 375 00:23:13.665 --> 00:23:17.345 doesn't like it. It's not the same kind of risk. Should the 376 00:23:17.345 --> 00:23:20.880 future of work be more free in your 377 00:23:20.880 --> 00:23:24.639 opinion? It has to be. For people to be creatives, you 378 00:23:24.639 --> 00:23:27.385 need that freedom. You need that risk. You need that 379 00:23:28.025 --> 00:23:31.705 fear. And I don't mean, like, a deep seated, like, sitting in the 380 00:23:31.705 --> 00:23:34.685 corner shaking fear, but the the unknown 381 00:23:36.130 --> 00:23:39.809 is one hell of a motivator. And whether you whether 382 00:23:39.809 --> 00:23:42.950 you choose to make it known 383 00:23:43.875 --> 00:23:47.395 or avoid it is up to you. But those with the 384 00:23:47.395 --> 00:23:50.615 freedom to explore, 385 00:23:51.970 --> 00:23:55.270 to investigate, to play within a problem space, 386 00:23:55.809 --> 00:23:59.590 and a willingness and desire to make the unknown known, 387 00:23:59.970 --> 00:24:03.774 yes. That is absolutely the future of work. It has to 388 00:24:03.774 --> 00:24:07.235 be. And I don't I don't particularly mean 389 00:24:07.455 --> 00:24:11.059 somebody who's traditionally considered a creative. Solutioning 390 00:24:11.200 --> 00:24:14.259 in anything is an act of creativity. 391 00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:18.179 And as long as you're working to solve real problems, then 392 00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:22.105 solutioning is pretty important regardless of how 393 00:24:22.184 --> 00:24:25.725 Mhmm. How you how you implement, whether you're an accountant, 394 00:24:25.865 --> 00:24:29.419 developer, or a designer, really. Maybe creative accounting. 395 00:24:29.419 --> 00:24:33.020 Let's let's strike that from the record. Sure. But I think 396 00:24:33.020 --> 00:24:36.320 everyone everyone has the opportunity to be creative. 397 00:24:36.784 --> 00:24:40.085 It is kinda scary because with creativity comes 398 00:24:40.705 --> 00:24:44.164 paramount accountability. Mhmm. It is on you, 399 00:24:44.450 --> 00:24:48.050 You know? But we've create and and in corporate, we've 400 00:24:48.050 --> 00:24:51.810 created a world where it's easier and safer to not 401 00:24:51.810 --> 00:24:55.425 be creative because it's easier and safer to not put your 402 00:24:55.425 --> 00:24:59.185 neck on the line and throw an idea out there because it's because 403 00:24:59.185 --> 00:25:02.890 it can be wrong. I love being wrong. I literally 404 00:25:03.030 --> 00:25:06.870 love being wrong There you go. Because it allows me to figure out where 405 00:25:06.870 --> 00:25:10.525 I need to fix it. Our entire process is, like, exposed. 406 00:25:10.745 --> 00:25:14.265 It's it's right out there in front of our clients. They're watching as we go. 407 00:25:14.265 --> 00:25:17.630 We're building. We're changing. We're learning what wasn't right. And there's 408 00:25:17.630 --> 00:25:21.390 no let me explain it this way. The first thing we ever do 409 00:25:21.390 --> 00:25:24.750 with our clients when we're talking about an experience, once we figured out what the 410 00:25:24.750 --> 00:25:28.385 real problems we should be solving are, what those solutions should be, first thing we 411 00:25:28.385 --> 00:25:32.145 do is we hand them a paper sketch because I could care less if 412 00:25:32.145 --> 00:25:35.890 I crumpled up a paper sketch and throw it away. There's no 413 00:25:35.890 --> 00:25:39.570 ownership. Exactly. None. Am I accountable for that idea? 414 00:25:39.570 --> 00:25:42.945 Yes. Is it wrong? Yes. Yeah. A lot of 415 00:25:42.945 --> 00:25:46.625 times compared to final outcomes, yeah, it is. Mhmm. Can 416 00:25:46.625 --> 00:25:50.165 you can you tell that it's a couple generations before that evolution? 417 00:25:50.465 --> 00:25:53.970 Yeah. Absolutely. But we're okay with 418 00:25:53.970 --> 00:25:57.650 that. Being okay with being wrong is is absolutely 419 00:25:57.650 --> 00:26:01.030 critical, and it's part of our process. In fact, being wrong 420 00:26:01.895 --> 00:26:05.735 as early as possible really defines our entire 421 00:26:05.735 --> 00:26:09.175 design process. Right. There's there's no pride. There's 422 00:26:09.175 --> 00:26:12.860 no pomp and circumstance to it. There really isn't. Right. 423 00:26:13.400 --> 00:26:16.760 What would you say then is the most important quality that you 424 00:26:16.760 --> 00:26:20.515 need when you're working with someone, I e, an employee Mhmm. Or a 425 00:26:20.515 --> 00:26:23.715 partner in the organization? When you're working on a team, what is the most important 426 00:26:23.715 --> 00:26:27.395 quality they need to have, and what is the most important quality that a client 427 00:26:27.395 --> 00:26:30.820 needs to have? Great questions. So an 428 00:26:30.820 --> 00:26:34.360 employee needs to be able to to draw upon 429 00:26:34.500 --> 00:26:38.115 the experience that they have, but but 430 00:26:38.115 --> 00:26:41.554 be instantly willing to drop what they've 431 00:26:41.554 --> 00:26:45.395 learned in order to learn something new or 432 00:26:45.395 --> 00:26:49.149 apply it in a different way. Oftentimes, you know, it's like, well, 433 00:26:49.149 --> 00:26:52.669 this is the way it's done. We're gonna do it this way. It doesn't. It 434 00:26:52.669 --> 00:26:56.135 doesn't. Obviously, the the years of experience that a 435 00:26:56.135 --> 00:26:59.975 practitioner brings to the table is tremendously important. What I like to 436 00:26:59.975 --> 00:27:03.206 think about the way I like to think about it and the way I I 437 00:27:03.206 --> 00:27:07.020 I I like to to communicate it to my team is it's like you 438 00:27:07.020 --> 00:27:10.860 know, those those engineering animations where they'll take a object and then they'll 439 00:27:10.860 --> 00:27:14.684 blow it out and then you'll see all the little pieces. I like to do 440 00:27:14.684 --> 00:27:18.365 that. Like, that's that's the way I think our our 441 00:27:18.365 --> 00:27:22.049 operation works. My brain works for sure this way. I'll take it apart 442 00:27:22.110 --> 00:27:24.590 and I'll take something else apart. I'll take a piece from over here and a 443 00:27:24.590 --> 00:27:27.950 piece from over here and a piece from over here, remix it, and hit it 444 00:27:27.950 --> 00:27:30.955 back to you. It's it's being able to 445 00:27:31.495 --> 00:27:35.015 take the ideas and notions and 446 00:27:35.015 --> 00:27:38.820 extract them from the structure from which they existed previously 447 00:27:39.679 --> 00:27:43.360 to create something new and a new structure around it, and 448 00:27:43.360 --> 00:27:46.515 be absolutely comfortable with 449 00:27:46.975 --> 00:27:50.815 putting it out there. And as I said, being wrong have to be 450 00:27:50.815 --> 00:27:54.490 wrong first. So that's interesting. I call that the concept 451 00:27:54.550 --> 00:27:58.230 of novelty plus, familiarity. So in 452 00:27:58.230 --> 00:28:01.210 all studies of virality or memorable, 453 00:28:02.425 --> 00:28:06.265 what's the word I'm looking for, memorability? That's probably probably not the right word. But 454 00:28:06.265 --> 00:28:09.965 things that stand out in our memory are generally something that's comfortable enough 455 00:28:10.470 --> 00:28:14.150 for us to accept it and embrace it without too much resistance, but 456 00:28:14.150 --> 00:28:17.830 novel enough to, again, create a bit of tension. Because 457 00:28:17.830 --> 00:28:20.795 tension creates attention. And so 458 00:28:21.655 --> 00:28:25.415 you're basically saying the same thing that if we're if you're making 459 00:28:25.415 --> 00:28:28.929 a Super Bowl ad this year, you don't want to make something so crazy that 460 00:28:28.929 --> 00:28:31.890 nobody can relate to it. But you want to make it different enough that it 461 00:28:31.890 --> 00:28:35.730 doesn't resemble last year's winner because that's not what clients are paying you 462 00:28:35.730 --> 00:28:39.485 for. They're paying for you to get that one piece of attention 463 00:28:39.945 --> 00:28:43.645 in a 32nd spot that never comes again. 464 00:28:44.510 --> 00:28:48.350 And so for your work to be memorable, I can understand 465 00:28:48.350 --> 00:28:51.950 why people need to be free to take some risk to find 466 00:28:51.950 --> 00:28:54.375 those edges. I always say it's like a pizza dough. When you pull on a 467 00:28:54.375 --> 00:28:57.815 pizza dough at first, it goes back to where it wants to be. But 468 00:28:57.815 --> 00:29:01.115 eventually, you keep tugging in all of the edges and it becomes 469 00:29:01.790 --> 00:29:05.630 a crust, not a ball of dough. So the second question was, 470 00:29:05.630 --> 00:29:08.990 what do you need your customers to embrace? Who do they need to be to 471 00:29:08.990 --> 00:29:12.235 work well with you? Open minded, for 1. 472 00:29:12.375 --> 00:29:16.215 Passionate about their own business and their customer. We can't be sec we we can't 473 00:29:16.215 --> 00:29:20.020 be successful if they're not. Like, we just can't. You know, I 474 00:29:20.020 --> 00:29:23.620 don't think there's many things that that that I can speak 475 00:29:23.620 --> 00:29:27.380 to about our clients in terms of their market or 476 00:29:27.380 --> 00:29:31.205 their industry or or their technology. None of that matters. It's a culture 477 00:29:31.205 --> 00:29:34.345 thing. And a a willingness 478 00:29:34.965 --> 00:29:38.725 to to be open to to new ways of approaching 479 00:29:38.725 --> 00:29:42.570 things. And, you know, hopefully 480 00:29:42.710 --> 00:29:46.549 it's not something that's crazy out there because 481 00:29:46.549 --> 00:29:50.184 generally as a rule, if it feels crazy and out there 482 00:29:50.184 --> 00:29:53.945 and unfamiliar, to your point, we're not gonna we're not hit hitting the 483 00:29:53.945 --> 00:29:56.960 mark. But sometimes you gotta go there and then pull it back a little bit. 484 00:29:56.960 --> 00:30:00.340 Right? It depends on the client and the situation. But 485 00:30:00.880 --> 00:30:04.660 I really think it's about openness and and willingness to learn. 486 00:30:05.200 --> 00:30:08.934 And and, again, willingness to be not necessarily the 487 00:30:08.934 --> 00:30:12.615 authority on all things. Oh, yeah? Yes. We have most of our 488 00:30:12.615 --> 00:30:16.230 clients know their their work and what they do way better 489 00:30:16.230 --> 00:30:20.070 than we do. What we can do is bring that lens with the 490 00:30:20.070 --> 00:30:23.910 same level of of rigor to their customers and find the balance between 491 00:30:23.910 --> 00:30:27.735 them. Because ultimately, what you're doing is creating relationships with the customer. 492 00:30:28.035 --> 00:30:30.755 Right? You're not doing this for the people that you work for. You're doing this 493 00:30:30.755 --> 00:30:34.149 for the people who buy things from the people that you work for. I had 494 00:30:34.149 --> 00:30:37.850 a question for you. Do do those 495 00:30:37.990 --> 00:30:41.775 characteristics that you just described, would you call them courage? Because I'm 496 00:30:41.775 --> 00:30:45.535 fascinated with the notion of courage. Because you meet people 497 00:30:45.535 --> 00:30:49.135 in large organizations, and they're like, we're not 498 00:30:49.135 --> 00:30:52.970 usually trusted with that decision. We're not we're not sure this is the right 499 00:30:52.970 --> 00:30:55.550 move. We're not comfortable with being wrong sometimes. 500 00:30:56.650 --> 00:31:00.424 And so all of this is new, and change requires courage 501 00:31:00.485 --> 00:31:04.245 to fully embrace and adopt. Would you say that's true? I'm just 502 00:31:04.245 --> 00:31:07.850 trying to think because generally, I I I think of it as belief. 503 00:31:07.990 --> 00:31:11.509 Belief in self, belief in the idea, belief in outcomes. Mhmm. But 504 00:31:11.509 --> 00:31:15.355 courage is yeah. I mean, I feels weird. Yeah. 505 00:31:15.355 --> 00:31:18.815 I'm a courageous person, but I would imagine 506 00:31:19.755 --> 00:31:23.195 that courage is an absolute requirement to have steadfast belief in 507 00:31:23.195 --> 00:31:27.010 something. True. Very true. Here's a question that 508 00:31:27.010 --> 00:31:30.770 I have for you. You mentioned something before that I wanna shine a light 509 00:31:30.770 --> 00:31:34.525 on. That is all solutions are creativity. I believe when 510 00:31:34.525 --> 00:31:38.125 we make things, they're almost 511 00:31:38.125 --> 00:31:41.725 birthed onto the world, and now they're here. And now they're undeniable, and they're 512 00:31:41.725 --> 00:31:45.550 irreversible. And those things have the potential to create ripples. 513 00:31:45.550 --> 00:31:49.390 We satisfy a customer. We create an experience that connects 514 00:31:49.390 --> 00:31:53.035 with them emotionally, either through nostalgia or a feeling of 515 00:31:53.035 --> 00:31:56.735 being cared for, being part of something special. Any of those things 516 00:31:57.035 --> 00:32:00.700 can happen because of a solution. And I 517 00:32:00.700 --> 00:32:04.480 also think that one of the ripples that we create is 518 00:32:05.180 --> 00:32:08.860 the culture that we change, whether it's for our clients, for 519 00:32:08.860 --> 00:32:12.515 ourselves, for the community. And I don't know if you see yourself this way, but 520 00:32:12.515 --> 00:32:16.294 I do. I see you as doing something that's radically different 521 00:32:16.355 --> 00:32:19.930 than what most people do. It could be because you're 522 00:32:19.930 --> 00:32:23.530 small, because you're nimble, because you're hungry, because you're new, because or it could 523 00:32:23.530 --> 00:32:27.130 be because of you. And I know you would never 524 00:32:27.130 --> 00:32:30.685 take all the credit for something like this, but I 525 00:32:30.685 --> 00:32:33.405 still want I still want to assign it. And I still want to say that 526 00:32:33.405 --> 00:32:36.385 a big chunk of why I like talking to you so often 527 00:32:37.110 --> 00:32:40.870 is because you're that creative person. You understand the impact of what 528 00:32:40.870 --> 00:32:44.405 you make. And so I want 529 00:32:44.405 --> 00:32:48.005 your thoughts on that. Is that something that drives you? Is that something that you're 530 00:32:48.005 --> 00:32:51.419 able to see in what you're building? Yes. Sometimes 531 00:32:51.419 --> 00:32:55.120 resulting in an absolute disregard for everything. 532 00:32:55.580 --> 00:32:59.184 But, yes, I I I don't I don't see myself that 533 00:32:59.184 --> 00:33:02.804 way. I I I don't I know that I do things a little differently, 534 00:33:03.585 --> 00:33:07.265 but I don't really know what's going on inside the heads of anyone else. 535 00:33:07.265 --> 00:33:11.000 So I I I don't truly know how they think and 536 00:33:11.000 --> 00:33:14.760 how they operate. For me, there is no other way. This is this is 537 00:33:14.760 --> 00:33:18.164 it. And Yeah. It's the one 538 00:33:18.164 --> 00:33:21.605 defining factor that that is consistent in everything that we 539 00:33:21.605 --> 00:33:25.205 do, and has been consistent with everything that I've done for the last 540 00:33:25.205 --> 00:33:28.720 25 some odd years. Mhmm. You know, it 541 00:33:28.800 --> 00:33:31.700 it's it's going in and and 542 00:33:32.320 --> 00:33:35.780 just being stubborn about 543 00:33:36.075 --> 00:33:39.675 finding the right thing. Yeah. Most rule breakers and hell 544 00:33:39.675 --> 00:33:43.275 raisers would say the same thing. I'm just being me. I don't see myself as 545 00:33:43.275 --> 00:33:46.960 a pioneer. I don't see myself as anything special. I'm just being 546 00:33:47.660 --> 00:33:51.200 me. But that insistence, and you mentioned this earlier too, your insistence 547 00:33:51.580 --> 00:33:54.960 on doing it in the way that you feel is right 548 00:33:55.835 --> 00:33:59.675 is nonnegotiable. Like, there's just no going back to 549 00:33:59.675 --> 00:34:03.195 what I did before because I didn't belong there. I'm not a rule 550 00:34:03.195 --> 00:34:06.480 worshiper. I'm not a rule follower. I'm not a template 551 00:34:08.219 --> 00:34:11.900 stamper. And so I think that's a big part of what makes tension so 552 00:34:11.900 --> 00:34:14.534 interesting. And one of the cool things that you're doing, by the way, that people 553 00:34:14.534 --> 00:34:18.155 need to know about is that you actually, in celebration of your 4th anniversary, 554 00:34:18.694 --> 00:34:22.500 ran a sort of contest. Can you tell us about that? So in 555 00:34:22.500 --> 00:34:26.099 celebration of the of surviving 4 years, we're 556 00:34:26.099 --> 00:34:29.699 actually giving one selected company in 557 00:34:29.699 --> 00:34:33.054 either the spatial computing space or the AI space, 558 00:34:33.514 --> 00:34:37.034 a complete product strategy through dev ready 559 00:34:37.034 --> 00:34:40.829 design engagement at absolutely no cost. My my employees told 560 00:34:40.829 --> 00:34:44.529 me I was crazy. And, yeah, it is a little crazy. Yeah. But 561 00:34:44.829 --> 00:34:48.594 we've had some really, really outstanding clients. Not like 562 00:34:48.594 --> 00:34:51.795 we need to find something that's fun to work on. We're like, everything that we 563 00:34:51.795 --> 00:34:55.429 work on is fun. But we've built this company thanks to 564 00:34:55.429 --> 00:34:59.190 startups. And that's not to say we don't have large enterprise clients. We 565 00:34:59.190 --> 00:35:02.790 love them too. But our company exists because of startups. And 566 00:35:02.790 --> 00:35:06.395 something that I've always wanted to figure out is how do we get 567 00:35:06.455 --> 00:35:09.495 what we do in the hands of more start ups as early as possible. And 568 00:35:09.495 --> 00:35:11.975 this is a this is a great way to do it and to give back 569 00:35:11.975 --> 00:35:15.799 to the community that allowed us to be here today. Maybe by the 570 00:35:15.799 --> 00:35:19.480 time, this airs, we'll have results and we'll be able to share 571 00:35:19.480 --> 00:35:23.240 that. But, yeah, it's, it's we've got some really interesting stuff 572 00:35:23.240 --> 00:35:26.045 coming in. That is very exciting, and I'm sure it's a fun way to get 573 00:35:26.045 --> 00:35:29.805 the word out and get people who otherwise wouldn't encounter you in 574 00:35:29.805 --> 00:35:33.085 front of you and to choose a challenge that's maybe unique and something you've never 575 00:35:33.085 --> 00:35:36.609 done before. Congratulations on that. Congratulations on the 4 years. 576 00:35:37.069 --> 00:35:40.670 Where can people find you? I want people to know about Tension and 577 00:35:40.670 --> 00:35:44.485 where's the best what's the best way to engage with you? LinkedIn, obviously. 578 00:35:44.705 --> 00:35:47.685 Tension Consulting Inc. Obviously, our website, 579 00:35:49.105 --> 00:35:52.730 wearetension.com. So we are Tension is my, 580 00:35:53.210 --> 00:35:56.910 my son's URL choice. Uh-huh. Decide to run with it. 581 00:35:57.370 --> 00:36:01.195 Anything from there, always works. LinkedIn is all I'm I'm always 582 00:36:01.195 --> 00:36:04.635 on that. Direct email through the website always goes straight to me. So 583 00:36:05.115 --> 00:36:08.650 When I interview you next, because we know we're going to, where do you 584 00:36:08.809 --> 00:36:11.849 let's say that's 2 years from now. Where do you think you'll be? Maybe a 585 00:36:11.849 --> 00:36:15.549 a larger team by a bit. I'm not here for hyper growth. 586 00:36:15.655 --> 00:36:19.335 I'm not about multiple locations and trying to franchise this. I 587 00:36:19.335 --> 00:36:23.175 just wanna work on cool projects, man. I just wanna do good things for good 588 00:36:23.175 --> 00:36:26.910 companies. Dude, that is awesome. But that's why I think that's why what 589 00:36:26.910 --> 00:36:30.750 you're doing is working because your reason is good as 590 00:36:30.750 --> 00:36:34.105 they say. My friend, it's so great to talk to you. I enjoy all of 591 00:36:34.105 --> 00:36:37.465 our conversations, as I said, and I love having you on the air. And I 592 00:36:37.465 --> 00:36:40.445 hope that more people get to know you because of this show. 593 00:36:41.039 --> 00:36:44.240 And I look forward to the next time we get to talk. In the meantime, 594 00:36:44.240 --> 00:36:48.079 everything about Adam is gonna be in the show notes below so that you can 595 00:36:48.079 --> 00:36:51.385 check him out. And please do because he's doing fantastic 596 00:36:51.445 --> 00:36:55.225 work that in in our modern age, I think 597 00:36:56.085 --> 00:36:59.880 runs the risk of being bypassed. We think that design, 598 00:37:00.099 --> 00:37:03.619 intentional design, and focus on the customer is a 599 00:37:03.619 --> 00:37:07.415 luxury when really it's the reason for being here. And I think 600 00:37:07.415 --> 00:37:10.555 Adam is someone who gets that, and I think that's why he's doing so well. 601 00:37:10.615 --> 00:37:14.375 So not only can Agilist learn from this, entrepreneurs can learn from a fellow 602 00:37:14.375 --> 00:37:17.849 entrepreneur who's done it and has done it, as Frank 603 00:37:17.849 --> 00:37:21.369 Sinatra used to say, doing it my way. And I really dig that. So thank 604 00:37:21.369 --> 00:37:24.565 you, my friend, for being on the show. Always. Great to talk. 605 00:37:25.425 --> 00:37:29.265 Well, there he is, my old friend, Adam Smith. If you're in the market for 606 00:37:29.265 --> 00:37:32.930 some expert UI UX services, do me a favor. The very least 607 00:37:32.930 --> 00:37:36.609 go check him out at weartension.com. Follow what he 608 00:37:36.609 --> 00:37:40.185 does. He's an artist and I really respect his work and he's got 609 00:37:40.185 --> 00:37:43.945 great insights into modern delivery that any Agilist could learn 610 00:37:43.945 --> 00:37:47.625 from. And that's about it for this week. As for me, you can check 611 00:37:47.625 --> 00:37:51.359 out my products and services at learning.fusechamber.com. We've got 612 00:37:51.359 --> 00:37:55.200 some great discounts happening right now on the forge cohort 8 starting 613 00:37:55.200 --> 00:37:59.005 in June 2024. Reach out to find about some special 614 00:37:59.065 --> 00:38:02.744 discounts and some volume pricing if you wanna bring a few people from your 615 00:38:02.744 --> 00:38:06.265 company. I'll be back next week with some new stuff, so make sure you stay 616 00:38:06.265 --> 00:38:09.752 tuned. And until then, thank you for listening and stay 617 00:38:09.752 --> 00:38:10.252 badass.