You're listening to the Ina ran Institute live
podcast series.
So
when I found out we were come to
Amsterdam
for confidence in Amsterdam and and, you know,
just my...
What I've been doing recently is I've been
reading a lot about, the enlightenment about European
history
about,
you know, the the the the rise of
christianity, the dominance of christianity,
and then kind of
what happened during the enlightenment in spite of,
christianity.
It it came to me that,
you know, this is 1 of the most
important cities
in Western history.
This is the city in which in many
respects, the enlightenment is born.
This is city that reflects many of the
via of the values
that the enlightenment manifest.
And I thought, yep, we should do something
about
Amsterdam. We should talk about Amsterdam. You you
guys are here. You're walking the streets.
Are there's real meaning to what you're seeing
out there, particularly if you have chance to
visit to museums and get a little bit
of sense.
Of, the city itself.
So I started reading up a bunch of
stuff on
Amsterdam, and of got as I started reading,
I discovered how much I didn't know and
how how rich the history really is, much
more than I expected. So
so I'm gonna give the caveat. I am
not a historian. I'm not an expert on
Amsterdam.
You know, I'm gonna give you a little
flavor of few things that I think are
really important and interesting and fascinating
and how they relate to some of the
themes that we've had during in the conference,
including a what you just heard from from
Nico, so though,
I think I think, Ams amsterdam is a
more positive
than than what we just heard. Right?
So this is not the definitive.
This is not,
you know, the complete history, hopefully,
if you find this interesting,
and, you know, you'll go and do some
reading and and discovering
on your own. But as you walk around
in answer amsterdam,
And in particularly if you go to the
museums, and in particularly if you go to
the odd museums.
What you discover is that there was a
period in the city's history.
With this city
was by far, the richest city in the
world.
During the renaissance,
we think in terms of Italy, we think
Florence, we think we're rome.
We think about the great art that was
being produced during the renaissance. We think about
some of the scientific progress.
The economic progress that was happening. Primarily, we
think
renaissance, we think Italy.
But the reality is that for most people,
life in Italy was
really difficult.
That Italy barely
economically from a quality of life instead of
living barely
escaped
the middle ages.
From 1500 to 1700
estimates of Gdp per capita quality of life
standard of living from a material perspective
in Italy the richest country in 1500,
at least in Europe probably the world was
flat.
I mean, it's hard to imagine today when
we... We get really disappointed if the economy
is not growing even a little bit
for 200 years.
The economy of Italy was basically
flat.
What is fascinating
is join those 200 years
here in the Netherlands.
Gdp capita
doubled.
Making
Holland by far, the Richest country, in the
world on a per capita in terms of
in terms of the wealth and individual's experience
in terms the quality of life in terms
of the state of living
this was
during the seventeenth century,
the richest place on the planet.
And it's interesting to think
how that happened,
why it happened.
And then kinda of what were the consequences
of that wealth. And the consequences of the
wealth will stop maybe they is
go to the museum and you see the
fantastic art that was created here.
The the the beautiful paintings and innovative paintings
and what's unique and in the Italian paintings.
What's the number 1 thing you notice when
you go and see Dutch paintings
versus
Italian, even Renaissance.
Very few Jesus as Jesus. Is that a
G,
the themes have changed.
Whereas the Italian renaissance is primarily
Christian themes, at least.
What's being portrayed. I don't think the actual,
you know, theme of the painting is is
a religious theme. But the the story is
being told our religious stories.
It... There's a an evolution after that, you
get you get some...
You get, old testament stories?
Which are less Christian and less
orthodox and less kind of within the boundaries
of what is permitted by the church,
And then, of course, you get Greek
mythology?
And but once you come to
Poll, what do you start what do you
see in in the paintings?
You see couples?
You see rich merchants?
You see if you go to the the
museum, the... I I can't pronounce it. What
is it? The vials?
Likes music something like that. Anyway,
if you go to the resume and... And
and you should. Right? Everybody should. You really
should. Not just before the aesthetic experience, the
historical experience, just the the getting the sense
of what this was like. You should read.
When you watch, see the paintings read a
little bit because there's so much history there.
There's so much embedded in these, in these
great paintings. But if you see, Rem night's
watch. Right?
Rem right? Night's watch is this massive painting
in a in a massive room at the
museum.
And it's a group painting. There's a there's
a lot of people in this painting. Right?
And but it's a revolutionary painting.
It's very different than paintings
that have been done before. And what is
it that makes it
dramatically different. You have a group.
Usually group paintings before this, everybody's static.
Everybody's
specialist.
Here you have for the first time, a
massive group paintings of people in action.
And every face as you look through them,
is an individual face with individual characteristics,
expressing
their emotions, their,
presence at that
in this place.
It might not... It's as a painting as
an aesthetic experience. It might not resonate with
you. You might not feel
strong emotions, like, I don't know. I feel
when I see my is David and maybe
some of you do.
But in terms of
a cultural experience in terms of understanding the
culture
of the period,
it is incredibly
meaningful
and incredibly important. But
In many respects, what you're seeing in the
painting
is the beginning of a sense that started
in the Italian Renaissance and is maturing
in the Dutch enlightenment
of individual
of individual emotions being expressed
of individual character.
And of wealth,
1 of the things that Dutch painting celebrate
is the wealth that people have. Not only
in the way they dressed
and in the backgrounds that are present
in,
you know, in those group paintings, how they
all you know, a tired,
but also in the still lives,
if you if you go and at the
rooms of still life. And I know again
for for many people,
still life's that's kinda boring.
But actually go experience them and, give yourself
a chance.
To actually stand in front of some of
these paintings and experiencing them. And first what
you see is just the wealth that is
presented for you.
The abundance
that is presented before. And if you know
anything about human... In... If you know anything
about European history,
this abundance is new.
And it's not the abundance of kings,
indeed during this great period during this period
in in dutch history.
The Netherlands is republic.
It's not the wealth
of
Aristocrats.
This is the wealth of merchants.
This is the wealth of the middle class.
In a sense this is
the first, real middle class wealth that we
see
in Europe
and really the world
is right here where we are sitting
in the Netherlands. As you walk
along
the canals,
you know, we we just take the canals
for granted.
But somebody built those canals.
So built those canals when there was very
little technology to build canals.
Most of the land around us
is
land
that is being created
artificially. This is all the bay. This is
all water
that is being filled in.
If you look at the Netherlands more broadly,
if you drive around the Netherlands,
those of you who live here know this.
Right?
This whole country is a massive feat of
engineering.
This is a country that is below for,
I think a of it or 2 thirds
of it, something between there. Is below sea
level.
It used to flood regularly.
And they build bikes.
They build canals.
It is the convergence of 5 major rivers,
European rivers all come in here.
So it's a delta.
And if you've been anywhere in the world
where their delta, it's swamp.
It's
almost impossible to live
in this kind of environment, and he yet
the Dutch took this area
and they made something of it.
Human ingenuity,
human engineering
building d, building canals, canals, by the way,
are the cheapest way of moving goods from
point to point.
Is on barges
on boats.
So if you can imagine
Europe sending all its good, Central, Europe, Germany,
sending all its goods along the rivers,
all converging right here.
And then a series of canals, taking those
to the ports onto ships and shipping them
to the rest of the world, this becomes
a major trading hub.
But it's that building into the canals, the
building of the d,
that
really establishes
creates
out of nothing out of nature out of
this
space that we all today in inhabit.
And all this beauty
is artificial beauty.
All those canals
artificial canals.
This though nature doesn't create these nice round,
you know, nice shaped,
places in which you can you can move
around. So this is a city
which is an engineering feat
And then engineering feed actually happens before it's
golden age. So this is kind of the
setup
for
for the Netherlands. It also is a source
of of migration. Lots of people come here
to work in the building of the canals
and the buildings
of the of the d,
from Central Europe,
people are coming into the Netherlands
and the the the population is growing because
initially, not a lot of people here because
it's not particularly l.
So a lot of activity is going on.
This is...
You know, fifteenth century, 14 hundreds,
15 hundreds, early 15 hundreds.
The building the takes, the reclaiming land,
And at the same time,
there's a growing
intellectual
world that that that starts happening here in
the in in in in in Holland.
Not Holland. In the Netherlands because, you know,
Holland is just 1 part of the Netherlands.
And, you know, I don't know why, and
I I haven't found a particular explanation. I
don't know There is an explanation, but this
became the hub
of human.
The hub of a,
of the
integration or the attempt to integrate,
Greek ideas, greek philosophy,
greek individual
into the ideas of Christianity.
And when you read the first kind of
dutch,
human,
Christian human.
You can see them struggling with the ideas
of Christianity
and the ideas of
individual
individuality,
relationship of the individual to God, Even before
the protestant
information, they are already struggling with breaking away
from the Catholic church breaking away from the
dogma, breaking away from authoritarianism.
And
placing
the core of
ideas are beliefs
at the level of the individual rather than
a level of a loyalty to some pope
and some church.
Follow away in rome.
And, of course, this makes it very much
fertile ground for the reformation. So once the
reformation happens,
it it is it is here that that
did you... It just really catches fire. I
mean, Holland
again, Netherlands
is 1 of the places that becomes
that becomes protestant
very very quickly.
And
this protestantism
Well, you know, we can debate and and
there are debates about,
you,
which religion protestants a Catholic, which 1 is
more I don't know more what? More rational.
When you talk about irrational philosophies, which 1
is more rational is a interesting conversation. But
1 thing is is clear.
That the protestant break away from dogma. They
break away from
a blind following for 1 set of
belief established by an authoritarian church.
And is a reason why protestantism breaks apart
into a thousand different sec. It's It's because
it allows now for the freedom to interpret
these ideas in a much more individualistic way.
And that,
that happens
right here.
A lot of that is happening right here.
1 of the great thinkers of that period.
Wrath rat.
Alright? I'll I'll learn Dutch slowly.
Is is again, right here in in Athens
consider in Athens. In the Netherlands considered 1
of the great thinkers
of, the very early reformation,
a a, again, a challenger to Luther. He's
not... He's not buying into the particular
story that Luther telling. He's got his own
interpretation of this with clearly breaking away from
the Catholic church, the authoritarianism, the dogma,
and and, you know,
placing much more
of the
you know, of the input of the,
how you choose your beliefs and how you
choose your ideas
in the in the in the minds of
individuals, in the
belief sets of individuals The lights just went
off somewhere here.
And you see AAA slow progression of
increased in intellectual activity here. I try to
pronounce the other guy's named,
but I can't. So,
another thinker who's crucial is also right here,
crucial to development of the concept of individual
rights, lock is inspired by him.
Also somebody who develops
a significant theory of, just war theory, some
of you know that I've written about this.
And
and and if figure and put... Again, an
important figure within this reformation, another split within
the reformation. And what happens
because of all this more focus on
individual
interpretation rather than on dogma
is that the netherlands become very tolerant,
they they emphasize really religious tolerance. It's actually
declaration of religious tolerance in the Netherlands in
the late sixteenth century, which allows for different
sec to come here and different peoples to
inhabit here. And again, what you get
is significant
migration in,
1 of the 1 of the significant migrations
is a migration of Jews,
Jews who are are persecuted in Spain
who are kicked out of Spain during the
acquisition, go to Portugal,
and then Portugal,
adopt the acquisition. So they all have to
leave Portugal and many of them.
Come to Amsterdam, bringing their wealth,
and their knowledge,
and they
you know, they their contacts
in their ib peninsula. Remember this is appeared
with Spain and Portugal go, a dominant powers
in the world, and they bring their contact
from Siberian in Spain, and they settle here
in amsterdam and they are welcome.
And it's the 1 place in Europe where
there's
very little semitism.
And, of course, 1 of these jews who
come from poor
from Portugal,
is a young man
who is clearly a genius,
is identified within the Jewish community as a
genius,
But there's a challenge with geniuses, particularly geniuses
who are
thinkers who who who are, you know, use
your mind to question.
And the challenge with him his he questions,
Any questions,
any questions
to the point where the rabbi say enough.
Too many questions.
You're challenging our dogma,
and they ultimately kick him out.
They ex communicate him from the religion.
Out of Judaism. His name is Bo spin,
my norm is the great spin... The great
philosopher esp Spin mendoza.
And but he finds within the community of
Intel shows him an amsterdam, he finds a
home
in in
in the Netherlands.
And he creates a community of students around
him. And he has incredible influence on the
thinkers and the students around. Now, again, I'm
no expert, Spin knows
But many writers on the enlightenment consider him
kind of the
original
radical enlightenment thinker
somebody who kinds of sets a tone against,
somebody you influences people like lock, and many
of the French enlightenment thinkers
Spin nose is a crucial force
behind
the establishment of an enlightenment
intellectual world.
The fact
that there is tolerance
in the Netherlands.
Also makes it possible for Netherlands for publishers
and then other, Book publishers in the united
to start publishing
books that other countries will not publish.
So Spin books, which he publishes by the
way, without
signing them without his name anonymously
because they are so controversial in the world
because he's challenging
a Christian or Jewish God.
He's challenging
much of the dogma that exists in the
world They're published here.
The Netherlands becomes the center
of of
publishing,
intellectual books in the world.
That by some estimates, some there were between
50 percent and 2 thirds of all, the
books published in Europe.
Are published here in the Netherlands.
Anybody controversial is publishing here. They're willing to
publish him here.
So
you know,
when Law has leave England because he's worried
because there's a Catholic King,
he comes here.
When volta tear wants to publish books,
in the eighteenth century, they're published in Amsterdam.
So think have think after to think who
are controversial
and who faced censorship in their local communities
in their local countries, are publishing in Amsterdam
and then there's an entire networks during the
enlightenment. I mean, the alignments are fascinating than
any period. But their entire networks,
a book smuggling if you will.
Because these books are banned in different countries.
And yet they reach
all over Europe.
So everybody is reading or all the intellectual
are reading these books. In spite of the
fact that they're being since band. But Ams
amsterdam is a hub of that. Ams amsterdam
is the middle of that, the publishing industry
here until the end of the eighteenth century
in is a dominant publishing industry in the
world.
So
these are just some of
what you get if you if you if
you think about finance, the world of finance,
the first stock market in the world, is
right here in Amsterdam.
The first
publicly listed
corporation
is here in Amsterdam, the East India company,
which is responsible for Dutch colonialism,
particularly in Indonesia and the Far East.
1 of the 1 of the reasons just
to round out. Right, 1 of the reasons,
the museum here, the the museum of Ava
dam has It used to be there used
to be a whole segment of the museum
about the golden age
of the Netherlands.
Right? This is the age of Rem brand
and Vi.
This is the age of the great painting
and the wealth and and and everything we've
described and the intellectual of spin.
Well, now it's no longer called to golden
age. Golden age has being removed.
Why anybody know why the they they no
longer call it the golden age.
It's not politically correct, but why?
Well, because of colonialism and 1 real sin
that the that that that the Dutch committed,
not a not a politically correct sin, but
1 1 real. What
what would do they trade? Well, the
Yes. The so so the the the largest
the largest slave merchants
during the
during the seventeenth Century with the Dutch.
So they had the the slave votes. They
they... So...
No. It was actually... I mean, It was
actually the Dutch for a while. They later
replaced by the British, by the English,
but for a while, it was the Dutch
who had the largest.
Dutch it's
Now you blame Holland. Okay.
Now it's just holland.
At 1 other point I wanna make,
make a lot of points. But 1 other
point is during this period. 1 of the
amazing thing when I was reading about this
is during this period when when
Netherlands became as as it became.
It was actually a period of war.
The netherlands for an 80 year war. 88
0 year war against Spanish
for independence.
And it lasted
technically, it lasted 80 years. It only ended
in 16 48
with the signing of the was australian
peace treaty, which also ended the 30 year
war,
30 year award for those of you don't
know, probably the most brutal war and all
of european he in history on a per
capita, casualty per capita basis.
The Germans managed to kill a third of
the own population
in the name of what? Anybody you know
what the war was fought in name of?
Religion. So this was the war between Catholics
and protestants.
And within Germany, a third of the population
was was was slaughtered.
Over during the 30 year war. But at
same time the 30 year war was going
on here in the Netherlands are fighting an
80 year war against Spanish
to achieve their independence.
And while they're fighting that war,
they're also becoming the richest country in the
world, in spite of the wall, you know
the the marxist might say because of the
world, but it is in spite of the
world. Right? So
this is an incredibly rich place an incredibly
interesting place.
A place where
immigration played a huge positive role.
1 of the things that happened is Spain
took over the South Netherlands, which today is
called Belgium.
Right? And
all the protestants,
the the Spanish required the protestants to leave.
They had 4 years. To pack up their
stuff and leave.
And where did they all come? They left
un unbroken, which was 1 of the wealthiest
most successful trading ports and they all came
here again to the Amsterdam and its regions
and
and the Netherlands. So it's a place of
in immigration. It's a place of wealth.
And it's a place of intellectual activity, and
that's not an accident. It's intellectual it's set
up, set this up These human
was setting this place up as a place
that had
a positive
attitude was the individual. A place,
really,
maybe the first place in Europe to start
celebrating wealth,
celebrating achievement,
having a positive
attitude towards wealth
because think about the Christian attitude to towards
wealth,
Even in Italy, there was a huge amount
of criticism
ongoing within
christianity and with their catholicism,
attacking wealth creation. Here,
at least for that period,
there was real
celebration of that wealth.
At the Netherlands ultimately starts declining
for a variety of different political reasons. It
gets attacked by the French and ultimately,
that happens,
after the Netherlands Conquer En, England. Right? Are
there any British here?
Right? Yeah. I mean, it's the Netherlands that
conquer you guys.
William for orange rounds arrives in England and
and basically becomes king.
And starts to lion and cent of gravity
interestingly enough of economic activity,
intellectual activity,
trade
and military might shift from the Netherlands to
to the United Kingdom,
and The Netherlands starts declining as the United
Kingdom starts rising
significantly
in every 1 of those dimensions. And even
if you look at the odds, the art
starts declining,
and by the nineteenth century, clearly, the center
of gravity has shifted
statically
to places like france.
And away from the Netherlands. But this is
a... It's an example of this city rising
being incredibly successful
and then kind of peaking and and tapering
off.
But a an example of
vibrant
intellectual activity... Aesthetic activity to follow up on
Nico
you want intellectual vibrant intellectual, vibrant aesthetics
and a vibrant economy, the foundations, the the
the
ideas and the foundations
that later become kind of british
and American capitalism, the ideas of individual rights,
the ideas of secularism in, Spin mendoza and
others,
those
foundations are laid right here in the city.
So enjoy it as you walk around,
appreciate it. It is a testament to the
human mind. It is a testament to human
engineering.
It's a testament to human success and prosperity.
Thank you.
Alright. I know there were... So the questions,
any questions on this, but also, I know
people, had questions from yesterday
that they didn't get to ask. There was
a long line of questions and people didn't
get to ask or feel free to ask
about anything you want, including what we covered
yesterday or anything else.
Is this working?
Yeah.
Okay.
It relates to what you talked about now
as well, but, does the capacity to? Automate
romantic art and other aesthetic forms through Ai
programs like Mid journey,
which can incorporate centuries of artistic technology in
minutes
diminish its value in Rand view of objective
aesthetics will art ultimately favor content over technical
skill.
I don't know.
I mean, I think it's fascinating.
I think we're in for a period where
art is going to have to... Artists are
gonna have to figure this out.
And figure out,
what these tools are capable of, where does
their artistic expression come in
how do they use these tools
better
to enhance their own art.
What is just copying?
And dull and uni interesting and what is
a true aesthetic experience.
It it it it is it is
it's going to be complicated and it's gonna
be super interesting. And and if you're an
artist today. And I think if you have
anything today,
you've got any profession? You've gotta start thinking
about,
how is this new technology going to affect
me? How is this new technology?
How can I make it a tool to
make myself better?
The last thing you want is to be
afraid of it. The last thing you want
is to present it, The last thing you
want is to try to protect your stuff
from it because it it's it's...
You know, this is an amazing technology.
It it can contribute enormously to human progress
and human success. I'm sure that in the
hands of the right artists,
it can enhance our aesthetic experiences,
but you're gonna have the right off, you're
gonna have to find the right right artist.
And and 1 of the
1 of the really sad things about the
world in which we live is how few
great art
artists they are today.
III
can't think of very many areas in which
they are all good. Maybe in the... Maybe
in the movies, Tv stuff there's there's some
good artists, but,
you know, I I don't consider much of
the music today, particularly autistic. There's almost no
painting in sculpture. That's worth anything.
The play writers as novel lists,
you know, there's this some, but nothing great,
nothing that is really outstanding.
So first, we have to get the great
artist, and then they have to figure out
how to work with Ai. The problem is
going to be that we're gonna be flooded
by mediocre
superficial stupid stuff.
Okay. Thank you That that that's gonna be
what's gonna dominate.
Thanks.
Hi. So my question rates to 1 part
of like talk. So do you think that's
which 1 of the denomination of Krishna christianity
better, protest
or.
Do you wanna die of cancer a heart
attack?
It better for what,
and better for whom?
So
you know,
catholicism has
quote Advantage,
of being of of of appealing for the
most
of appealing in a certain segment of it
and certain part of it to kind of
this idea of reason and
and figuring stuff out,
in in real detail, protestantism,
particularly as it manifested itself played in in
evangelical,
is very emotional. It's a very about being
being emotional, expressing emotion and and put reason
aside. Right?
But which protestants...
Did all of them are different.
I you know, I hesitate to say this
because I'm not an a story and and
and somebody's gonna have to really do the
work, by the way, maybe some of you
will do this work. I think it's fascinating
because the more I read about this the
more interesting I get into.
But the advantage of pot
protestantism
or whatever. Right? Yeah of the reformation is
that again, it breaks the dogma.
But but there's also this weird
situation where Calvin and and Luther. Calvin and
Luther.
A really, really, really h people.
I mean, it's hard to over
overstate how h they are and how
how how the... What they think about us
as human beings. I mean, they think we
have fallen
where with despicable,
they also think you're pre
to either go to heaven or hell. So
before you're born,
you'll be determined about whether you go to
heaven an hell.
And there's a sense in which people took
that to me, it doesn't really matter what
I do while I'm alive.
I'm already determined where they go to heaven
a hell. So if the Catholics
really towards the end of their life really
focused on...
Doing altruistic stuff and giving their money waste
they could buy themselves into heaven.
Calvin and Luther says forget it. You it's
already determined, so you can try all you
want. If you're going to hell, you're going
to hell. And 1 of the things that
happened
is that a charitable giving towards the end
of 1 life dropped significantly
in in the protestant world, and there was
much more of accumulation of capital within families.
There was much more inheritance since passed along
to children, and there was much more accumulation
of capital and the Protestant world was in
the catholic quote because
it's you know, because of this idea of
pre destination. Then the other thing that happened
was, you know, us as being considered a
sin by by the Catholic Church. And the
Catholic Church and Usually is not excess interest.
Used was perceived. As any interest.
So there was real difficulty in doing banking,
in in the Catholic world.
Luther
view was, he says, look,
this world sucks
This is an awful sinful horrible world. You
wanna do usually,
go ahead. It doesn't matter.
He literally says he says in the kingdom
of heaven, there's no user.
The ideal, there's no user, but this world,
it's gru anyway.
So go foot, so banking develops here in
a way that it cannot in the south
and 1 of the reasons I think, that
the north becomes richer
than Italy, which starts off much richer because
it has the heritage of rome,
is because
people
quote, allowed
to to engage in economic activity
because, you know, who cares
what really matters is the next world, so
it enjoy this 1. Right?
If you can and you'll pre destined anyway.
And they don't take... I mean, obviously, you
you can't be motivated that way. That is
the individuals and are motivated that way. But
at least, it takes a certain burden off
them and it takes a certain level of
authoritarianism off of them. So
it... So in that sense, in terms of
the economic development, I think the broadest world
is better. I don't think it's about the
protestant work ethic.
I think it's about this idea of
Go Right? And there's no authoritarian dogma. This
is what you have to do,
all the time. There's much more of leaving
it enough to use as an individual to
decide the nature of your faith.
Rather than
a particular formula that the catholic church sticks
to.
Thank you.
But they're both Horrible. Just
I'm very anti christian.
I
Said that yesterday.
And we compete on who's more anti Christian,
the 2 of us. So
then I'm sure you'd love this question. Yeah.
This is a difficult somewhat here 1 with
when you look at religions, there's only non
objective and objective thinking, Right? And
the subjective thinking, whether it's religion, marxism, whatever,
It's all wishy washy, not objective and
looking at religions this way.
I'm interested to hear your opinion. Seeing that
the 30 years war is not very different
from the religious conflicts of Ireland and today
in Israel I must, they're not throwing theological
arguments,
Sweden got involved in the 30 years were
to protect protestant lives, and they certainly didn't
do it because they wanted to get their
point across,
to the Christian to the Catholic church.
So
to draw another
string of reference you put in yesterday, which
was you'd like the country the world to
be as few countries as possible, These big
blocks.
Yeah. I would love to hear your
stance on this, then when you see that
if you look at Christianity
compared to Islam, how much of a how
how often Christianity splits off from itself
and how much Islam doesn't?
When you look at
certainly, the objective thinkers of the world are
not in majority,
yet, Hopefully,
Hopefully,
It seems to me that all the free
states of the world are ones that that
managed to play the big states off of
each other. It seems to me that the
religion that reformed itself that the peasants were
allowed to read the bible themselves because you
were supposed to think for yourself now.
And make your own opinion of this, it
seems that the only reason Americas survived the
greatest political document, the founding fathers that even
though they were d in grand Revered. Yeah.
As the best that we had until now.
Yeah. And that's the way I see it
too. So I would like to see your
point of
aren't you
with this perspective, of
these
objective as close to objective as thinkers as
possible.
It being a 2000 year journey in that
sense of humanity actually learning to think for
itself and
playing the big non objective powers against each
other because if France and England formed that
personal union. Yeah. American never would have been.
And we would have 200000 years more maybe
of So I don't view as,
you know, a size of country or anything
like that as being relevant.
Look,
but there's a there's a hint there of
it's christianity to give us the modern world.
And the answer to that is no no.
No.
It's in spite of Christianity. We got all
the benefits.
It's in spite of them. That is... I'm,
I'm reading now to
really, really good books that I think Ben
Bai at the interviewed recommended in a and
a fascinating. The first 1, it's a it's
a the same author. The first one's called
the closing of the western mind.
And it basically starts with greece
and the flourishing of grease a success of
reason, and how wonderful grease is
and how wonderful rome is to logic extent.
And then Christianity comes around and shuts it
down,
literally shuts it down.
Shuts the mind down.
And for thousand years,
there no
observations in the west. At the Greece,
every generation, they're observing. They they don't get
it right, but they're observing and they're adding
to our body of knowledge for a thousand
years is 0.
But thousand years and no new discoveries in
christianity
about medicine. Nothing.
Nothing.
Until Harvey,
It's over a thousand. It's almost 1500 years
from... I forget the name of the
Roman
physician.
But anyway, the the this the the Western
mine is shut completely. And then his second
book is the reopening of the Western mine.
And the reopening of the Western wine is
not by christianity.
It's my people within the Christian world because
the whole world in this part of the
world is christian,
starting
to discover
greece
It's An even plato and the
all the Greek philosophers.
Who open up the Western world, in spite
of K christianity, and in spite of K
christianity, said attempt to close it.
If you look at all the the the
the thinkers who to using Greek ideas into
the world that K christianity would like to
suppress them or would like to stop them.
So it's ideas that shape the world, not
countries, not size, not shape. And indeed, if
you look at Islam, first all islam sp
before christianity.
Because Slump splinter to shi and Sun well
before Christianity had Protestants. And... But
Islam went to a golden age the book
makes the case, islam to the extent that
they adopted Greek ideas during a certain period
in their history.
And They were the 1 making astronomical
observations.
They were hundreds of years ahead of the
Christian Wilderness as a medicine.
Hundred... Few under study medicine, you went Persia
in the in the tenth century eleventh century
twelfth century.
They they were making... I mean, think of
Algebra.
Think of,
I mean, stunning that until I think is
the twelfth of thirteenth century, in the in
in the Christian world, we were still using
Roman numerals. Can you imagine doing math with
Roman numerals?
And what brought,
you know, the new... The the the the
the
number system we have today, The that.
Learned from India and brought it into the
West. So
no, it's not how many countries of the
division or all of that, what it is
is ideas. It is intellectual. It is the
red discovery of a great civilization of the
past, which is Greece,
that ultimately shaped. And once those ideas were
introduced, then there was no question, Christianity with
splinter, there was no question that they would
start challenging dogma, start thinking a new they
weren't quite ready to give up on God
and give up in Christianity, but things were
going to break up and there was going
to be... There was gonna be conflict And
the question is what kind of conflict that
was and how it would manifest itself. But
it it is... If you're gonna give, you
know, the credit for the world just which
we live goes to the Greeks and it
goes to the Greek thinkers and the Greek
philosophers
and to the people in the west who
discovered them, and
courageous enough and brave enough to challenge the
church
and to advocate for these ideas in spite
of the fact that many of them risked
their lives in order to do it. The
new testament is in Greek.
He was all it was all in Greek.
Right? I mean, at least civilization was Greek.
I mean, that the Western church split and
became in in turn to Latin, but the
but all of the important writings were originally
in Greek.
And and part of, a lot of what
a lot of that has been lost because
because the Christians burnt down a lot of
libraries.
Thank you.
You may have just answered my question about
the books.
Closing of the western mine running of the
western mine. Was it something else that you
would recommend about the enlightenment. You said you
read a recently saw thing what apart from
these 2? Well, I mean, a a favorite
off of mine about the alignment is a
guy named Jonathan Israel. He... He's written a
lot of book. Now he's quite academic, some
of them quite academic. And, you know, so
when I was wanted to re read about
the history of the Netherlands.
I went... You know, I I knew Jonathan
and Israel role was interested. So I I
found a book of his on the history
of the Netherlands, not available in
in audiobook book not available Kindle Either had
buy an actual book, which I don't do
anymore. And it showed up in my house,
and it was
it was atlas shrugged as like tiny in
comparison. It was this thick.
And I have to admit I haven't read
the whole thing. I just... You know, I
But it's fascinating, and he is a little
academic. He can be a little academic Has
some pop more popular books, but but he's
a favorite
There's 1,
the enlightenment, the pursuit of happiness, something about
the pursuit of happiness, which is quite good.
It's it's got pursuit of happiness in the
title and enlightenment.
IIII
really like the book the cave in the
light, which is a history of all the
of western history, basically from the perspective is
a battle between and potato. Mh. Thanks.
Okay. Year,
for those who don't don't know me. I've
lived my whole life in the Netherlands and
by far, you addressed most positive
that I've ever heard,
but I like to,
recommend maybe you've read him already, but after
the 80 years war with Spain, we had
a government and that period was called True
Freedom. And that was by Johan D vid.
And basically, he motivated a lot of people
to for instance so you got to hurt
to write about free cs. So as you
go to Melee, maybe you can bring some
of joe on the its side id because
he was a guy in his thirties,
running our country with specifically calling freedom is
required. Yeah. And and
there was a a republic here. And there
it it was it was
this was probably the frees country at the
time in Europe
that unfortunately ended at some point, Again, and
I think because of the war with France.
But
but there was a period here there was
a there was a probably it was under
real public in the same sense as America,
but it was given the times, it was
about a free as you could get, in
Europe it was more similar to the kind
of the Venetian republics and the,
quarantined republics and and topics that have been...
That had been around for a while, not,
you know, kind of the the the the
American system of government. But as good as
it got. So
this is in in that sense,
very much AAAA
part of the the beginning of civilization and...
Oh or crucial,
key point in civilization and transmission of civilization
from Italy Northern Europe york.
And the end of his regime, basically we
don't know it, but they were shirts and
then we got kings back. Yes. So,
and that's the decline. Yeah. Yep. Thanks.
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