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Hello,

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and welcome to the ventures an earning podcast

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where we analyze, explore and celebrate the creative

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journey. My name is Julie Bay Ann Bowser,

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and I am a working artist living outside

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of Boston. I've been hosting this podcast with

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my super special c host and my mom.

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Eileen lean Shu Since 2012

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Hi, mom.

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I wanna really?

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So if you want to develop a strong

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and thriving our practice. I hope you'll check

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it out my art practice dot com. My

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art practice dot com is a monthly membership

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site with a robust community and tons of

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great art content at your fingertips. Day or

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night.

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I asked people on the message were recently

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about what they were most looking to get

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out of my our practice, and, remember,

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Molly said

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I'm looking forward to all of it. There's

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so much here community, learning, techniques, guess artist

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art movements and discovery, practice lessons. There's are

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such a wealth of material, and I am

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excited to dig through all of it. Thank

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you for setting up the space julie. It's

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dutch definitely worth the money. I have so

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many ideas after working through half of the

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passion and purpose section. I'll have to sit

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down, organize my thoughts and ideas. I probably

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have enough inspiration perfectly 5 years worth of

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work, if not more.

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I recently purchased your carb December workbook and

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I'm gonna start 1 for each of my

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ideas and themes, so I'm set up to

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move forward when I'm am ready. The tricky

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part is deciding which inspiration to pursue first.

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I thought that was a great comment and

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really got at, hey how much there is

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in the my art practice dot com,

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classroom and online site. So don't wait

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get on the waitlist list at my r

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practice dot com and be the first to

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know when the doors open in August for

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cycle 2.

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The focus of cycle 2 is gonna be

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on iteration. Otherwise known 1 is working on

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a or working in a series. So I'm

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super excited about it. Now today's episode is

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a little bit of a surprise. I usually

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give mom a, Pdf before

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the show so she can know what it

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is. Talking about and today she's going in

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blind just like the old days.

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So the reason that I need today, a

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blind podcast is because I knew she would

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never agree to it.

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Well I haven't agreed to it. So this

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is episode 01:60

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to called why Do you host this podcast

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with your mom?

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Oh, why.

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Okay. So it's it's too it's a light

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version of what I've threatened you with before,

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which is a podcast all about you. And

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I ask you. Is it?

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Why do you host this podcast with your

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mom

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or why do you host this podcast

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with your mom? In other words,

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Is it why I'm the other host?

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Yeah. It's why you are so important to

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the incredible...

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And undeniable success of the show. A wisdom

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up that comes out as we do again

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just comes flying out of your mouth at

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every moment, it's very exciting,

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So I've organized the podcast

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into into sections to warm mom up for

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when she'll tell us all her childhood with

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secrets and bed wedding stories.

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And we begin with the spark or the

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origin story really of the podcast and how

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that came out, then we go into sort

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of challenges of learning and growth that we've

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had a little bit of the behind the

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scenes of making the podcast.

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Then we go into the mom sections question.

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I'm saying that with very threatening face right

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now, and she's looking very coy.

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And then, finally, we get to sort of

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the evolution of the podcast and then, talk

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a little bit about sort of any future

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plans and aspirations. Right So let's make begin

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easy and say, do you remember when I

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told you that I wanted to do a

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podcast?

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Long ago. Mh. I might think at all.

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But

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as with most of your ideas that involve

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a change.

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I always start out by saying, oh, no.

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Not me, that won't work.

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Are you sure

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why are we doing this? Yes. Yeah. Yes.

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So,

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back in 2012,

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if you can get in your time machine

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with me.

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It was a time when podcasts were not

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that common.

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Like, there were podcasts,

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but,

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it... There weren't a lot of, like, podcasts

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plugins or easy ways to do it. So

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you had to have a lot of technical

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knowledge, which was something of a barrier.

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People were using, like, sound mixing boards and

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serious audio equipment, and

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even, like, listening to a podcast. Like, it's

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not like you you could... It was super

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easy. Like, you had to... There's, like, what

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sort of, like, different ways you had to

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do it. Anyway, all that is to say,

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I went this... Huge blogging conference. And I

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just got exposed

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to a lot of different ideas about blogging,

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and there was AAA

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breakout session bell podcasts.

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And I was sort of fascinated by this

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idea because if there's 1 thing I can

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do to it's talk.

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And I thought... That's her secret power. It's

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your secret superpower act actually. I don't think

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it's secret though.

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But there's... You know, it was 1 of

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those things where I was like, wow, something

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where you can just, like, talk. That sounds

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amazing.

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And I still remember there was a woman

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there who had a...

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I don't think it was Barn themed It

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was... But it was somehow animal themed and

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it has... Converted into my head and Barn

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came game because she demonstrated how she, like,

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played animal noises and talked and how she

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mixed it all I was very intrigued. And

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so after that, I did some research, and

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I found a guy who coached people in

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how to start podcasts. That was his whole

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business.

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And So I hired him. And he took

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me through, like, all the equipment that you

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needed to do, and I told mom who

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said she wasn't gonna do it, and I

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told her she was. And then she said

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she absolutely wasn't gonna do it, and then

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I told her she was, and then we

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had a podcast.

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And you know, my original

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vision

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of this. The reason I called it adventures

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and earning

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is at, at the time, and I... I

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believe I still have, but was the idea

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of that there are many

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different

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sort of,

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kinds of artists, which is why we've had

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as guests,

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people who are singers, people who are bot

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us, people who are you know,

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do things that are,

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outside of just visual art. I would say

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the last, like,

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5 years it has turned much more primarily

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over individual art as opposed to the wide

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wide variety of art, but that was the

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original

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intention.

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And

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I had also been a guest on there

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was a scrapbook booking podcast

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back in the day. And I have been

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a guest on that podcast, and I had

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found

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that to be very intriguing and their model

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was to have it was called paper clipping

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round table,

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and their model was to have likes, 3

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guests maybe who talked all on some certain

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topic.

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And so because of that, I immediately was

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like, oh, a podcast has guests. And to

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be fair that was the format for most

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podcasts at the time. And so we booked

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a lot of guests as you'll recall, like,

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almost every single episode was an interview with

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a guest.

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And and then I... My recollection of it,

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although it could be hazy because it is

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how many years ago is it?

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2000 my math is terrible.

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12 years.

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So 12 years ago was that

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you know, we've tried all sorts of different

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segments. We've done, like, favorite things or

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recommendation or what what's a supplier using or

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You know what I mean? Any sort of

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thing we've tried. So we've tried to kinda,

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like, the segment idea and it never really

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worked for us. We've been very,

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I don't know. I tenant

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with the podcast.

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Until recently, it's, like, sometimes it was worth

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the month, and it was once every other

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week that it was once a... A year

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that was

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once... And I think we've managed to do

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a podcast in every single year since 2012.

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But I'm not sure that we quite managed

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to keep up with the regular of it.

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I did find out that you are in

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the top 1 percent, of podcast

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if you make it past 21 episodes.

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Yeah. Which I thought was pretty amazing. So

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apparently, there are, like, 2000000

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podcasts or something that people have started.

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And, basically, there are 20000

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that have made it past 21 episode. Because

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the fact is, like, you're not getting rich.

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It is a technical barrier.

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Podcast podcasts. There are certain people I talked

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to who are like, I don't do podcasts.

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So the same... Which is so funny to

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me because it's the same way that, like,

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if I said like, oh,

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I don't read books.

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I feel like there'd be a lot of

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judgment. Like, who just says books are stupid

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books are not for me. Like, I don't

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know. I think that that's a bit... That's

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a... There's a big leap in my opinion.

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And so the same thing for me is

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true at podcasts. Like, you may not like

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podcasts, and I think that's fair to say.

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But, like, I don't do podcast podcasts. I

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never... That always seems to me like, a

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very...

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Anyway, that's a whole other conversation that we

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don't have because obviously, you are listening to

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a podcast. Why do you need to hear

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me say this?

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Okay. So that was kind of like, my

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memory of the origin story. Do you remember

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anything else?

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No. But I remember that loan you have

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guests, it makes the scheduling so difficult.

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Mh.

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Right. Because recording 83 people's

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schedules that point. We're trying to get the

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guest and you and me and figure it

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out. 1 of the things that we started

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doing to make the podcast more regular

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in this in 20 24, which I'm very

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proud we've put out a podcast every single

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week in 20 24, and it's it's, you

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know, this is this episode will be out

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in July.

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Is that we've now made a regular date

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00:09:46,466 --> 00:09:49,283
that we schedule it on. And so course

273
00:09:49,662 --> 00:09:52,314
we on that regular date today. Right? With

274
00:09:52,314 --> 00:09:53,992
some... Because that's the other good thing. When

275
00:09:53,992 --> 00:09:56,150
you only can me as your guest You

276
00:09:56,150 --> 00:09:57,908
could just shove me around and say, oh,

277
00:09:58,148 --> 00:09:59,826
I'm not doing it then. And I'm doing

278
00:09:59,826 --> 00:10:00,785
it another time.

279
00:10:01,358 --> 00:10:04,620
And I just obedient shuffle along to the

280
00:10:04,620 --> 00:10:05,120
appointed

281
00:10:05,972 --> 00:10:07,325
appointed time in place.

282
00:10:07,961 --> 00:10:10,126
Yeah. To be fair though, we generally do

283
00:10:10,126 --> 00:10:12,036
do it on Wednesdays of 4 these days.

284
00:10:13,389 --> 00:10:14,981
And that has been working in terms of

285
00:10:14,981 --> 00:10:17,149
keeping it regularly. Like, that there's just there's

286
00:10:17,149 --> 00:10:19,066
an appointment in the calendar, and if we

287
00:10:19,066 --> 00:10:20,345
have to move it, we move it. I

288
00:10:20,345 --> 00:10:21,303
mean, this is the thing that I see

289
00:10:21,303 --> 00:10:22,981
in my art clients too, which is, like,

290
00:10:23,061 --> 00:10:24,995
if you're doing a hundred day project or

291
00:10:24,995 --> 00:10:27,955
daily project or carb December or anything that

292
00:10:27,955 --> 00:10:29,634
involves, like, having to show up every day,

293
00:10:30,355 --> 00:10:31,894
you can't make

294
00:10:32,209 --> 00:10:34,787
whatever the task is so draco corny

295
00:10:35,405 --> 00:10:37,803
that it's hard to keep up with. You

296
00:10:37,803 --> 00:10:39,641
have to make it flexible and easy and

297
00:10:39,641 --> 00:10:40,200
understand that, like,

298
00:10:40,853 --> 00:10:42,842
you know, it could be as simple as

299
00:10:43,001 --> 00:10:46,978
I resolve that I will do something art

300
00:10:46,978 --> 00:10:47,376
related.

301
00:10:47,949 --> 00:10:50,503
For 10 minutes every day. And then even

302
00:10:50,503 --> 00:10:51,562
if you're in,

303
00:10:51,940 --> 00:10:53,855
you know, I don't know 10 bucks 2,

304
00:10:54,494 --> 00:10:56,662
you know, or stuck in a submarine like

305
00:10:56,662 --> 00:10:59,468
you can find a way to do something

306
00:10:59,525 --> 00:11:00,638
for 10 minutes,

307
00:11:01,513 --> 00:11:03,501
you know, that's art related. That's a lot

308
00:11:03,501 --> 00:11:04,932
easier than saying, I will do a finished

309
00:11:04,932 --> 00:11:07,019
painting every day for this. I will finish

310
00:11:07,019 --> 00:11:08,936
a collage, I will... Whatever it is. Like,

311
00:11:09,096 --> 00:11:09,176
that's...

312
00:11:10,134 --> 00:11:12,132
I think when you put the emphasis on

313
00:11:12,132 --> 00:11:14,304
the outcome as opposed to the effort is

314
00:11:14,304 --> 00:11:16,622
on showing up. It's really hard. So technically,

315
00:11:16,782 --> 00:11:18,220
we've never said we're gonna put out a

316
00:11:18,220 --> 00:11:20,378
podcast every week. We have said we're gonna

317
00:11:20,378 --> 00:11:21,976
show up every Wednesday at 4 and record

318
00:11:21,976 --> 00:11:22,636
a podcast.

319
00:11:23,175 --> 00:11:23,230
This

320
00:11:24,141 --> 00:11:25,489
And and, you know, the rest of it

321
00:11:25,489 --> 00:11:26,916
has kind of followed. I think this is

322
00:11:26,916 --> 00:11:28,660
the whole thing that people say, like, I

323
00:11:28,660 --> 00:11:30,483
mean, this is again theory because I don't

324
00:11:30,483 --> 00:11:32,169
do this. But, like, if you wanna go

325
00:11:32,169 --> 00:11:33,921
to the gym, put your shoes by the

326
00:11:33,921 --> 00:11:35,992
door, Make it easy for yourself. Have a

327
00:11:35,992 --> 00:11:37,903
second set of clothes. Have everything ready to

328
00:11:37,903 --> 00:11:39,576
go so that there's no barrier.

329
00:11:39,989 --> 00:11:40,705
To doing it.

330
00:11:41,898 --> 00:11:42,136
Anyway.

331
00:11:43,488 --> 00:11:46,613
Okay. So behind the scenes, the making

332
00:11:46,988 --> 00:11:48,204
of the podcast

333
00:11:51,616 --> 00:11:53,048
So mom, would you like to explain the

334
00:11:53,048 --> 00:11:54,719
making of the podcast from your perspective?

335
00:11:56,250 --> 00:11:57,549
Oh, you send me

336
00:11:58,490 --> 00:11:59,209
once a week,

337
00:12:01,610 --> 00:12:03,782
sort of memo of what the podcast is

338
00:12:03,782 --> 00:12:05,456
gonna be except not this week.

339
00:12:06,733 --> 00:12:08,987
Why. But there's a whole

340
00:12:09,364 --> 00:12:11,598
ethical thing about why you wanna trick your

341
00:12:11,598 --> 00:12:12,098
podcast

342
00:12:12,808 --> 00:12:14,078
you know, partner.

343
00:12:16,618 --> 00:12:17,673
I would say

344
00:12:18,284 --> 00:12:19,102
it's usually,

345
00:12:21,560 --> 00:12:23,016
not self explanatory.

346
00:12:23,792 --> 00:12:24,292
So

347
00:12:24,669 --> 00:12:26,662
I sort of look at it, and then

348
00:12:26,822 --> 00:12:28,337
I wait to find out.

349
00:12:29,149 --> 00:12:31,539
What you're gonna do on the actual podcast,

350
00:12:31,698 --> 00:12:34,110
which is what adds the incredible freshness

351
00:12:34,884 --> 00:12:35,283
to this,

352
00:12:36,650 --> 00:12:37,762
to this recording.

353
00:12:38,318 --> 00:12:39,056
And then

354
00:12:40,621 --> 00:12:42,607
we sit down. There's usually some 1 of

355
00:12:42,607 --> 00:12:44,139
us has a computer problem.

356
00:12:45,570 --> 00:12:47,809
Right? Because we do this on our computers.

357
00:12:48,450 --> 00:12:50,850
Traditional. Yeah. So there's always a kind of

358
00:12:50,850 --> 00:12:53,509
a mess there. And then we do it

359
00:12:54,063 --> 00:12:55,200
And then after

360
00:12:55,894 --> 00:12:57,110
we kind of chat

361
00:12:57,645 --> 00:13:00,930
since I've starved for attention from you. Oh.

362
00:13:01,799 --> 00:13:03,236
This is a good segue into talking about

363
00:13:03,236 --> 00:13:04,434
you. But, anyway, what I was gonna say.

364
00:13:04,593 --> 00:13:06,908
So from my perspective, I keep a trello

365
00:13:06,908 --> 00:13:09,703
board with all of the podcast op that

366
00:13:09,782 --> 00:13:12,113
I thought of or that, like, somebody suggested

367
00:13:12,113 --> 00:13:14,031
to me or guess I wanna invite, etcetera.

368
00:13:14,191 --> 00:13:15,469
And then it... If you don't know, what

369
00:13:15,629 --> 00:13:15,948
Trello,

370
00:13:16,507 --> 00:13:18,425
Board is based on the kanban system,

371
00:13:19,236 --> 00:13:20,984
which is a way of, like, organizing your

372
00:13:20,984 --> 00:13:22,732
thoughts so that they sort of go through

373
00:13:22,732 --> 00:13:24,957
different steps. So, like, it starts off in

374
00:13:24,957 --> 00:13:26,644
an idea that it's, like, a shortlist list,

375
00:13:26,804 --> 00:13:28,961
meaning I've drafted that memo, then I'm gonna

376
00:13:28,961 --> 00:13:30,559
send to mom, and that's ready to go,

377
00:13:31,198 --> 00:13:31,698
or

378
00:13:32,077 --> 00:13:34,129
it's, you know, been recorded, but it needs

379
00:13:34,249 --> 00:13:36,646
editing or it's been edited, but it needs

380
00:13:36,646 --> 00:13:38,504
promotion, etcetera, etcetera. So

381
00:13:38,963 --> 00:13:40,641
it's sort of just, like, that's where that

382
00:13:40,641 --> 00:13:42,252
all sort of goes through. And then, like

383
00:13:42,412 --> 00:13:44,167
I said, so I need to obviously edit.

384
00:13:45,204 --> 00:13:46,720
And we've been doing this thing where we're

385
00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:47,858
doing both video

386
00:13:49,206 --> 00:13:51,674
and an audio podcast, and that's been interesting

387
00:13:51,674 --> 00:13:53,265
to have to edit both of those.

388
00:13:53,902 --> 00:13:56,544
But it's also ann a berg because and

389
00:13:56,704 --> 00:13:57,824
I used to be able to do this

390
00:13:57,824 --> 00:13:59,684
come in my pajamas or whatever,

391
00:14:00,384 --> 00:14:02,064
you know, haven't brushed my hair,

392
00:14:02,704 --> 00:14:04,464
and then now I have to, like, think

393
00:14:04,464 --> 00:14:04,784
about it.

394
00:14:05,518 --> 00:14:07,510
Which is just 1 more layer of pressure.

395
00:14:07,908 --> 00:14:09,183
To be fair, I still come in into

396
00:14:09,183 --> 00:14:11,175
my pajamas and don't brush my hair, but

397
00:14:11,175 --> 00:14:13,326
that's just that's just the no 1 can

398
00:14:13,326 --> 00:14:15,412
tell on you. I'm willing to to the

399
00:14:15,412 --> 00:14:18,117
world. Older you get the more being pulled

400
00:14:18,117 --> 00:14:21,481
together is important to not appear too solemn

401
00:14:21,935 --> 00:14:24,656
out Well, so I'm just s in middle

402
00:14:24,656 --> 00:14:25,770
aged, I've accepted it.

403
00:14:26,725 --> 00:14:28,316
And someday, I'll be old and s, and

404
00:14:28,396 --> 00:14:29,271
I'll still accept it.

405
00:14:30,639 --> 00:14:33,027
Okay. Not we call you eccentric.

406
00:14:33,504 --> 00:14:35,176
Accent... There you go. I'm entering my gray

407
00:14:35,176 --> 00:14:35,733
garden space.

408
00:14:36,609 --> 00:14:36,927
So...

409
00:14:38,041 --> 00:14:38,780
And then

410
00:14:40,207 --> 00:14:42,442
goes up on Youtube, it goes up on

411
00:14:42,442 --> 00:14:43,878
the channels is something I need to get

412
00:14:43,878 --> 00:14:46,592
better at, a personal goal for me, flipping

413
00:14:46,592 --> 00:14:48,202
ahead to the goal section for the podcast

414
00:14:48,202 --> 00:14:50,433
is. I'm really terrible about marketing the podcast.

415
00:14:50,911 --> 00:14:52,584
I know there there's a I know there

416
00:14:52,584 --> 00:14:53,779
are lots of different ways to do it,

417
00:14:53,938 --> 00:14:57,059
and I just different dealt. So that's something

418
00:14:57,218 --> 00:14:58,492
I need to work on.

419
00:14:59,368 --> 00:15:00,323
Yeah. You?

420
00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:02,972
Yeah. It was you haven't done for

421
00:15:03,283 --> 00:15:05,511
like, a hundred of tied care. I know.

422
00:15:05,750 --> 00:15:07,342
I know. I will. It's on my to

423
00:15:07,342 --> 00:15:09,172
do list. It's... There's a lot of stuff

424
00:15:09,172 --> 00:15:10,445
on my trello board to do list.

425
00:15:11,895 --> 00:15:13,730
And what I would say is some of

426
00:15:13,730 --> 00:15:15,825
the things that I think

427
00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:18,754
have happened as we have sort of like,

428
00:15:18,913 --> 00:15:20,845
worked on the podcast is figured a lot...

429
00:15:21,085 --> 00:15:22,524
They're to figured out on our feet,

430
00:15:23,725 --> 00:15:26,125
what it's about. A lot of times, I

431
00:15:26,125 --> 00:15:27,404
find that what I

432
00:15:28,139 --> 00:15:30,214
other people respond to and what we enjoy

433
00:15:30,214 --> 00:15:32,209
doing is just sort of ji chatting. But

434
00:15:32,369 --> 00:15:35,003
I have tried more and more to make

435
00:15:35,003 --> 00:15:36,335
the podcast have

436
00:15:36,692 --> 00:15:39,578
not just an entertainment value, but useful content

437
00:15:40,112 --> 00:15:43,134
that people can, you know, write down, think

438
00:15:43,134 --> 00:15:44,962
about, you know, listen to the podcast to

439
00:15:44,962 --> 00:15:45,837
get and kind of stuff.

440
00:15:46,489 --> 00:15:48,162
So I wonder if it would be...

441
00:15:48,799 --> 00:15:51,429
I'd like to encourage people to write to

442
00:15:51,429 --> 00:15:54,138
you. Mh. If they think of something that

443
00:15:54,138 --> 00:15:55,811
would be useful content for them.

444
00:15:56,543 --> 00:15:57,921
So that they... We can

445
00:15:58,537 --> 00:16:00,452
have some topics they were thought of just

446
00:16:00,452 --> 00:16:01,967
by your Devious brain.

447
00:16:02,605 --> 00:16:04,838
Yes. Although I have asked your Dbs brain

448
00:16:04,838 --> 00:16:06,035
to come up with some topics too.

449
00:16:07,885 --> 00:16:11,237
At. We actually laughed our our podcast that

450
00:16:11,237 --> 00:16:11,876
we did,

451
00:16:12,594 --> 00:16:13,632
01:59

452
00:16:13,632 --> 00:16:15,954
maybe on focus was based on a comment

453
00:16:15,954 --> 00:16:16,985
and so like, That's 1 of the reasons

454
00:16:17,065 --> 00:16:19,129
I like the listener mail podcast too because

455
00:16:19,208 --> 00:16:20,954
I feel like then it's a conversation. Because

456
00:16:20,954 --> 00:16:22,224
at the end of the day, we're not

457
00:16:22,224 --> 00:16:24,385
getting famous off this podcast and we're definitely

458
00:16:24,385 --> 00:16:26,138
not making any money off of it. I

459
00:16:26,138 --> 00:16:29,005
think it chooses, I know. Right? It loses

460
00:16:29,005 --> 00:16:31,655
money because paying for podcast hosting,

461
00:16:32,031 --> 00:16:34,355
paying, you know, website fees, paying for all

462
00:16:34,355 --> 00:16:36,742
the equipment and blah blah, like, we're definitely

463
00:16:36,742 --> 00:16:37,697
losing money on it.

464
00:16:39,051 --> 00:16:40,722
And I think that at the end of

465
00:16:40,722 --> 00:16:42,177
the day, then what's the point

466
00:16:42,489 --> 00:16:44,088
in doing it, and I think it really

467
00:16:44,088 --> 00:16:45,307
is about

468
00:16:46,006 --> 00:16:49,043
community because I find that the people who

469
00:16:49,043 --> 00:16:51,461
do listen to the podcast are like the

470
00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:55,819
nicest kind most loyal, you know, intelligent, interesting

471
00:16:55,819 --> 00:16:57,879
people and I I just... That's the part

472
00:16:57,879 --> 00:16:59,171
for me that really

473
00:16:59,718 --> 00:17:02,506
drives wanting to do it. Way to stroke

474
00:17:02,506 --> 00:17:04,497
the audience. I will just say in fairness,

475
00:17:04,656 --> 00:17:08,342
you could go, monetize it by selling advertising

476
00:17:08,654 --> 00:17:10,115
So we couldn't go wanna

477
00:17:10,414 --> 00:17:11,795
by selling advertising

478
00:17:12,255 --> 00:17:15,535
because we are not big enough for any

479
00:17:15,535 --> 00:17:15,615
time...

480
00:17:17,295 --> 00:17:19,548
We because we don't have the pressure of

481
00:17:19,548 --> 00:17:22,185
anybody else's issues. Yes. Yes.

482
00:17:23,703 --> 00:17:24,603
Okay. So

483
00:17:25,462 --> 00:17:26,581
that's sort of all that. So now we

484
00:17:26,581 --> 00:17:27,755
get to the mom question.

485
00:17:28,510 --> 00:17:30,817
This is like when you put the pill

486
00:17:30,817 --> 00:17:32,249
in inside from peanut butter.

487
00:17:32,885 --> 00:17:34,260
Why will there be

488
00:17:35,288 --> 00:17:37,997
Julie questions. They're here julie questions, but I

489
00:17:37,997 --> 00:17:39,590
think like, 1 of the things that is

490
00:17:39,590 --> 00:17:41,047
very true is that

491
00:17:41,901 --> 00:17:44,388
I miss piggy in our relationship. And so

492
00:17:44,548 --> 00:17:46,701
I have definitely made this all about m,

493
00:17:47,898 --> 00:17:50,450
and you hate the spotlight. And so now

494
00:17:50,450 --> 00:17:51,987
it is going to be about you.

495
00:17:53,728 --> 00:17:56,211
So mom, would you like me

496
00:17:56,821 --> 00:17:58,908
to jump off into

497
00:17:59,613 --> 00:18:01,283
telling people some places I think we should

498
00:18:01,283 --> 00:18:02,635
start? Or would you like to begin by

499
00:18:02,635 --> 00:18:04,385
just saying a little something about, you know?

500
00:18:04,623 --> 00:18:06,611
I would like you to be check to

501
00:18:06,611 --> 00:18:07,407
drive this bus.

502
00:18:08,217 --> 00:18:09,172
Okay. Okay. Okay.

503
00:18:11,162 --> 00:18:11,662
So

504
00:18:12,276 --> 00:18:12,776
my

505
00:18:13,470 --> 00:18:13,970
mother

506
00:18:14,584 --> 00:18:16,971
grew up in the suburbs of Chicago.

507
00:18:18,023 --> 00:18:18,523
And

508
00:18:19,140 --> 00:18:21,613
your father, my grandfather was a professor of

509
00:18:21,692 --> 00:18:23,448
Amp anthropology and your mom was a stay

510
00:18:23,448 --> 00:18:24,006
at home mom.

511
00:18:25,219 --> 00:18:27,935
Was this interesting to anyone yet? Because it's

512
00:18:27,935 --> 00:18:28,755
not interesting

513
00:18:29,214 --> 00:18:30,332
lots of people.

514
00:18:30,971 --> 00:18:32,430
Wait a second? And

515
00:18:32,903 --> 00:18:36,488
you... I'm interested to know because anthropology and

516
00:18:36,488 --> 00:18:38,082
art are not totally unrelated.

517
00:18:39,516 --> 00:18:40,414
Did you

518
00:18:40,790 --> 00:18:42,087
talk about art

519
00:18:42,399 --> 00:18:44,552
you know, in your household with your parents,

520
00:18:44,712 --> 00:18:45,509
was that a thing.

521
00:18:46,546 --> 00:18:48,221
You know, when I think about it, I'm

522
00:18:48,221 --> 00:18:49,896
gonna give a lot of credit to my

523
00:18:49,896 --> 00:18:51,593
father, who's the 1 who

524
00:18:52,544 --> 00:18:53,663
took me to museums.

525
00:18:54,302 --> 00:18:54,462
Mh.

526
00:18:55,341 --> 00:18:56,240
Took me to

527
00:18:56,859 --> 00:18:58,457
cultural events, you know,

528
00:18:59,496 --> 00:19:00,455
took me to theater,

529
00:19:01,348 --> 00:19:04,158
and who basically I took my little

530
00:19:04,933 --> 00:19:06,150
vegetable brain

531
00:19:07,005 --> 00:19:07,505
and

532
00:19:08,694 --> 00:19:11,095
fed a lot of stuff that made me

533
00:19:11,095 --> 00:19:13,355
realize that the world was much bigger

534
00:19:14,295 --> 00:19:14,795
than

535
00:19:16,227 --> 00:19:17,102
just my house.

536
00:19:18,296 --> 00:19:19,830
I I think

537
00:19:20,364 --> 00:19:22,614
1 of the things that you after

538
00:19:23,244 --> 00:19:25,724
not underestimate is, even if you take your

539
00:19:25,724 --> 00:19:28,684
children to things and they don't become artists

540
00:19:28,684 --> 00:19:29,184
dancers

541
00:19:29,565 --> 00:19:29,805
musicians,

542
00:19:30,445 --> 00:19:31,744
still then they become

543
00:19:33,252 --> 00:19:33,491
aware,

544
00:19:34,127 --> 00:19:34,604
appreciative,

545
00:19:35,478 --> 00:19:36,455
Consumers of

546
00:19:36,988 --> 00:19:38,362
all the above. So

547
00:19:40,105 --> 00:19:43,304
III could still remember having every time you're,

548
00:19:43,625 --> 00:19:45,224
My father would do something like you would

549
00:19:45,224 --> 00:19:46,984
say, oh, we're going to see the moist

550
00:19:46,984 --> 00:19:47,704
of dancers,

551
00:19:48,264 --> 00:19:50,914
and people would... I would say, what? The

552
00:19:50,914 --> 00:19:52,830
voice of dancers, and this was a time

553
00:19:52,830 --> 00:19:55,325
when there were not a lot of cultural

554
00:19:55,544 --> 00:19:56,900
exchanges between Russia,

555
00:19:57,554 --> 00:19:58,054
and

556
00:19:58,513 --> 00:20:00,750
the United States and this was this Russian

557
00:20:00,750 --> 00:20:03,307
dance troop that had never come before. That's

558
00:20:03,307 --> 00:20:05,006
how old I am. And

559
00:20:05,719 --> 00:20:08,112
it was eye opening to me. It just...

560
00:20:09,148 --> 00:20:09,808
I think

561
00:20:10,505 --> 00:20:12,738
so similarly, I once took your brother and

562
00:20:12,738 --> 00:20:14,253
his friend when they were, I think in

563
00:20:14,253 --> 00:20:14,891
middle school,

564
00:20:16,103 --> 00:20:16,603
to

565
00:20:18,336 --> 00:20:20,888
the opera or the Ballet or something,

566
00:20:21,287 --> 00:20:21,787
and

567
00:20:22,164 --> 00:20:24,898
they drove me crazy, but I always feel

568
00:20:25,927 --> 00:20:27,516
that it was good that I did that.

569
00:20:28,549 --> 00:20:30,775
You know? You they know it's out there.

570
00:20:31,411 --> 00:20:33,731
Yeah. I think exposures is such... An important

571
00:20:33,731 --> 00:20:35,481
thing. And even though, like, it drives me

572
00:20:35,481 --> 00:20:36,833
crazy to take my 4 year old to

573
00:20:36,833 --> 00:20:38,504
the museum Like I can't enjoy the museum.

574
00:20:38,663 --> 00:20:40,670
I have to be on him, an have

575
00:20:40,670 --> 00:20:42,589
to really watch him. I can't me and

576
00:20:42,589 --> 00:20:44,430
he's complaining the whole time. I still feel

577
00:20:44,430 --> 00:20:45,410
like it's

578
00:20:45,869 --> 00:20:48,589
important that he's there, and, you know, learns

579
00:20:48,589 --> 00:20:49,470
all these things.

580
00:20:50,758 --> 00:20:53,166
Okay. So now I know that you traveled

581
00:20:54,653 --> 00:20:56,243
as a child. In fact you lived abroad

582
00:20:56,243 --> 00:20:57,038
in India.

583
00:20:58,406 --> 00:21:01,355
And this is a time that's somewhat pre

584
00:21:01,355 --> 00:21:03,348
as much airplane travels as you do, so

585
00:21:03,348 --> 00:21:03,986
you took a boat.

586
00:21:05,833 --> 00:21:09,088
Yes. But also, I think my parents liked

587
00:21:09,088 --> 00:21:11,390
bolts. Mh. But that was was in the

588
00:21:11,390 --> 00:21:12,184
days when...

589
00:21:13,867 --> 00:21:16,892
Airplane travel was not so common. Mh.

590
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,906
And the dinosaur wasn't running at that time.

591
00:21:22,145 --> 00:21:23,043
So we

592
00:21:24,067 --> 00:21:26,527
The D would had to swim very, very

593
00:21:26,527 --> 00:21:27,241
far. It gets,

594
00:21:28,273 --> 00:21:30,573
from Chicago all the way to India.

595
00:21:31,779 --> 00:21:33,768
Yes. But so I've lived in India. I've

596
00:21:33,768 --> 00:21:34,643
lived in Japan.

597
00:21:35,279 --> 00:21:37,108
I've lived in England. Mh.

598
00:21:38,794 --> 00:21:40,312
Which is I real... I think is a

599
00:21:40,312 --> 00:21:42,470
really good thing for a child to learn

600
00:21:42,470 --> 00:21:44,147
that there's more than 1 way to do

601
00:21:44,147 --> 00:21:46,165
things, more than 1 way to

602
00:21:46,877 --> 00:21:49,268
have school, more than 1 kind of food,

603
00:21:49,428 --> 00:21:51,261
you know, to eat more than 1 way

604
00:21:51,261 --> 00:21:52,297
to speak to people,

605
00:21:52,935 --> 00:21:53,435
and

606
00:21:54,862 --> 00:21:56,212
I think you had the benefit of a

607
00:21:56,212 --> 00:21:58,117
lot of travel when you were a little

608
00:21:58,117 --> 00:22:00,603
and opens you up in a different way

609
00:22:00,976 --> 00:22:02,088
to notice things.

610
00:22:02,659 --> 00:22:03,375
Mh. Right?

611
00:22:04,171 --> 00:22:04,489
And

612
00:22:05,046 --> 00:22:07,275
You could probably talk about what traveled did

613
00:22:07,275 --> 00:22:07,832
for you.

614
00:22:09,264 --> 00:22:11,254
While there's a you you and dad towed

615
00:22:11,254 --> 00:22:13,739
us around to... The... Back back in the

616
00:22:13,739 --> 00:22:16,471
days a hundred years ago when airline travel

617
00:22:17,407 --> 00:22:19,400
heard me wasn't as draco corny as it

618
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:19,958
is now.

619
00:22:21,408 --> 00:22:22,863
Whenever my father

620
00:22:23,318 --> 00:22:25,547
would go on a business trip, he would

621
00:22:25,547 --> 00:22:28,731
cash in his business class ticket that had

622
00:22:28,731 --> 00:22:30,721
been paid for for 4 coach tickets.

623
00:22:31,291 --> 00:22:33,116
And we would all go wherever he was

624
00:22:33,116 --> 00:22:33,433
going.

625
00:22:34,941 --> 00:22:36,868
And oftentimes it was very interesting

626
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:37,876
places.

627
00:22:38,369 --> 00:22:39,087
And so,

628
00:22:39,566 --> 00:22:41,742
you know, I think we managed to hit

629
00:22:42,439 --> 00:22:45,950
every continent of except for Australia and antarctica,

630
00:22:46,284 --> 00:22:48,193
as a family. Although I did make it

631
00:22:48,193 --> 00:22:49,466
to Australia on my own.

632
00:22:50,342 --> 00:22:52,251
But, yeah, We went to Africa. We went

633
00:22:52,251 --> 00:22:54,422
to South America. We went all over

634
00:22:55,369 --> 00:22:57,609
you know, Central Mari. We went to Europe,

635
00:22:57,849 --> 00:23:00,410
and I remember t through lots of things

636
00:23:00,410 --> 00:23:02,170
that I hated that I felt boring that

637
00:23:02,250 --> 00:23:04,730
I wanna kick the little snot nose 8

638
00:23:04,730 --> 00:23:06,955
year old who was, you know, born in

639
00:23:07,114 --> 00:23:09,021
Italy because wouldn't I love to take that

640
00:23:09,021 --> 00:23:09,736
trip right now.

641
00:23:10,867 --> 00:23:12,382
But, you know, I mean, I think that

642
00:23:12,382 --> 00:23:14,855
that's the thing which is, like, I was

643
00:23:14,855 --> 00:23:16,529
aware at a very young age how lucky

644
00:23:16,609 --> 00:23:19,775
I was, because I saw real poverty that's

645
00:23:19,973 --> 00:23:21,805
scared the Jesus out of me, you know,

646
00:23:22,044 --> 00:23:23,476
on lots of our trips. When we went,

647
00:23:23,636 --> 00:23:24,989
and you would see what are what a

648
00:23:24,989 --> 00:23:26,741
real slum is like and what, you know,

649
00:23:26,979 --> 00:23:28,908
people are living like and understand that it

650
00:23:28,908 --> 00:23:30,286
was different. I think that,

651
00:23:30,744 --> 00:23:32,201
you know, to know that

652
00:23:32,580 --> 00:23:33,638
cultures are different

653
00:23:34,096 --> 00:23:36,092
wherever you go. Like, I remember when we

654
00:23:36,092 --> 00:23:36,890
went to Thailand,

655
00:23:37,544 --> 00:23:39,061
You guys were very clear with us, like,

656
00:23:39,221 --> 00:23:42,493
don't touch other children's heads. Don't, you know,

657
00:23:42,653 --> 00:23:44,329
don't do this. Don't do that so that

658
00:23:44,329 --> 00:23:45,846
we would know sort of what the cultural

659
00:23:45,846 --> 00:23:48,196
norms are. And I think that that's something

660
00:23:49,848 --> 00:23:51,942
that helps you un center yourself

661
00:23:53,036 --> 00:23:54,492
to remember that

662
00:23:55,125 --> 00:23:57,144
you are not the center of the universe

663
00:23:57,525 --> 00:23:59,924
and what you think is normal. Is just

664
00:23:59,924 --> 00:24:01,924
your normal. It's not the normal.

665
00:24:03,217 --> 00:24:04,573
As they say, and I think it's true,

666
00:24:04,653 --> 00:24:06,648
like, people who don't travel, the world is

667
00:24:06,648 --> 00:24:08,483
a book and people who don't travel read

668
00:24:08,483 --> 00:24:09,281
only 1 page.

669
00:24:10,414 --> 00:24:12,414
Well, it doesn't it also open you up

670
00:24:12,414 --> 00:24:14,754
to things to noticing things like

671
00:24:15,375 --> 00:24:17,694
architecture, for example. Mh. I remember you went

672
00:24:17,694 --> 00:24:19,630
through a phase where you... Which you still

673
00:24:19,630 --> 00:24:21,549
may be in where you used to photograph

674
00:24:21,549 --> 00:24:22,049
doorways.

675
00:24:22,349 --> 00:24:24,269
Well, I still do it. I love doorways.

676
00:24:24,509 --> 00:24:26,589
Paris is my favorite doorway City, but, yes,

677
00:24:26,829 --> 00:24:27,789
doors doors doors.

678
00:24:28,364 --> 00:24:29,503
I mean, I just think

679
00:24:29,961 --> 00:24:30,200
it...

680
00:24:32,116 --> 00:24:33,713
It's like when you move something in your

681
00:24:33,713 --> 00:24:35,709
house and suddenly that room in your house

682
00:24:35,709 --> 00:24:37,759
looks different. When you go to a different

683
00:24:37,958 --> 00:24:38,275
setting,

684
00:24:39,226 --> 00:24:41,208
visual setting. Yeah. You know,

685
00:24:42,556 --> 00:24:44,459
he start cue in on some of those

686
00:24:44,459 --> 00:24:44,959
things

687
00:24:45,663 --> 00:24:46,536
in your own life.

688
00:24:47,171 --> 00:24:48,838
Mh. I think it's true. And you know,

689
00:24:48,997 --> 00:24:51,141
I often talk about how I as a

690
00:24:51,141 --> 00:24:53,936
bi racial person, you know, are I'm dealing

691
00:24:53,936 --> 00:24:55,846
with, like, different cultures and a lot of

692
00:24:55,846 --> 00:24:57,937
perception versus reality, but you grew up

693
00:24:58,313 --> 00:25:01,351
in a very bi cultural household your parents

694
00:25:01,351 --> 00:25:03,658
sort of accidentally immigrated from China,

695
00:25:04,931 --> 00:25:06,681
because they didn't intend to, but then they

696
00:25:06,681 --> 00:25:07,769
kinda got stuck here

697
00:25:08,526 --> 00:25:09,322
and you...

698
00:25:10,039 --> 00:25:12,587
But they want... We're really, like, interested in

699
00:25:12,587 --> 00:25:14,657
being American in a lot of ways. Can

700
00:25:14,657 --> 00:25:15,931
you talk a little bit about that?

701
00:25:16,662 --> 00:25:18,732
I don't think that's right. I think what

702
00:25:18,732 --> 00:25:22,076
it was was my father had had gone

703
00:25:22,076 --> 00:25:23,907
to graduate school in England.

704
00:25:24,957 --> 00:25:26,413
And my mother always

705
00:25:26,790 --> 00:25:28,007
said that he was

706
00:25:28,463 --> 00:25:29,521
not really Chinese.

707
00:25:30,615 --> 00:25:33,563
He was the a marginal man, meaning he

708
00:25:33,563 --> 00:25:34,063
he

709
00:25:34,615 --> 00:25:37,015
didn't have sort of the a lot of

710
00:25:37,015 --> 00:25:39,595
the characteristics that you think of as typically

711
00:25:40,694 --> 00:25:41,335
that culture.

712
00:25:42,054 --> 00:25:42,714
I think

713
00:25:44,383 --> 00:25:44,883
And

714
00:25:45,493 --> 00:25:47,396
he was... He already had a lot of

715
00:25:47,396 --> 00:25:47,872
facility,

716
00:25:48,269 --> 00:25:50,648
obviously, in English and a lot of other

717
00:25:50,648 --> 00:25:51,148
languages.

718
00:25:51,774 --> 00:25:54,115
My mother came to America and she didn't

719
00:25:55,054 --> 00:25:57,615
speak anything but Chinese. So she had a

720
00:25:57,615 --> 00:25:59,430
hard... I think she had a very hard

721
00:25:59,549 --> 00:26:02,130
Simon. I have the greatest respect for her

722
00:26:03,070 --> 00:26:05,549
because she, as you said, didn't intend to

723
00:26:05,549 --> 00:26:06,430
stay. They were...

724
00:26:07,244 --> 00:26:09,244
They came. My father was invited to teach

725
00:26:09,244 --> 00:26:11,085
at Columbia so they came for that and

726
00:26:11,085 --> 00:26:13,164
then he taught to Car and then at

727
00:26:13,484 --> 00:26:14,660
Northwestern and then they were

728
00:26:15,176 --> 00:26:17,028
we were literally on a boat

729
00:26:18,754 --> 00:26:21,299
sort of on our way to Hawaii because

730
00:26:21,299 --> 00:26:23,142
they were bringing us all back to China.

731
00:26:23,300 --> 00:26:25,125
I was, like, 4 years old, so I...

732
00:26:25,443 --> 00:26:27,664
Or even 3. So I was kind of

733
00:26:27,664 --> 00:26:29,831
oblivious to what was happening. And then

734
00:26:30,539 --> 00:26:31,199
the Chinese

735
00:26:31,578 --> 00:26:32,078
revolution

736
00:26:32,457 --> 00:26:33,416
happened and,

737
00:26:35,493 --> 00:26:37,811
my father wrote his brother and said, what

738
00:26:37,811 --> 00:26:39,823
do you think should I still keep coming

739
00:26:39,823 --> 00:26:41,741
and the brother wrote back and so, why

740
00:26:41,741 --> 00:26:42,940
don't you wait and see what happens.

741
00:26:43,818 --> 00:26:45,437
So we ended up

742
00:26:45,976 --> 00:26:46,795
not going

743
00:26:47,429 --> 00:26:49,365
quote back to China. So

744
00:26:49,742 --> 00:26:50,960
I think my mother

745
00:26:51,337 --> 00:26:54,071
adjusted incredibly well to the point where

746
00:26:54,861 --> 00:26:56,691
you know, after all that time here,

747
00:26:58,600 --> 00:26:59,100
she

748
00:27:00,270 --> 00:27:01,009
she could

749
00:27:02,199 --> 00:27:04,356
read English. She could speak English. She could

750
00:27:04,356 --> 00:27:06,034
enjoy a movie in English. She could, you

751
00:27:06,034 --> 00:27:06,854
know, do

752
00:27:07,632 --> 00:27:09,730
math in English. But I think

753
00:27:10,365 --> 00:27:12,125
that was not her intention. As far as

754
00:27:12,125 --> 00:27:14,464
my father goes, he's very he was very

755
00:27:14,845 --> 00:27:15,345
adaptable.

756
00:27:16,684 --> 00:27:17,184
So

757
00:27:18,857 --> 00:27:20,763
that was not a problem for him. I

758
00:27:20,763 --> 00:27:22,749
think he actually would be... Would have been

759
00:27:22,749 --> 00:27:25,529
happier here than if he had made it

760
00:27:25,529 --> 00:27:26,323
back to China.

761
00:27:27,611 --> 00:27:29,205
And your... Just tell me if I'm wrong,

762
00:27:29,364 --> 00:27:31,913
but my recollection is that there weren't a

763
00:27:31,913 --> 00:27:33,267
ton of Chinese women.

764
00:27:34,079 --> 00:27:36,226
In America. Right. That was a time when

765
00:27:36,226 --> 00:27:38,078
when it was very hard to

766
00:27:38,771 --> 00:27:39,271
integrate

767
00:27:40,124 --> 00:27:42,055
if you were in certain categories,

768
00:27:42,763 --> 00:27:44,696
Chinese being 1 of them, and

769
00:27:45,230 --> 00:27:46,048
they were

770
00:27:47,220 --> 00:27:49,231
not encouraging people to

771
00:27:50,259 --> 00:27:52,656
Bring their families because they basically wanted them

772
00:27:52,656 --> 00:27:53,535
to go back,

773
00:27:54,733 --> 00:27:56,411
You know, come work and then go back.

774
00:27:56,651 --> 00:27:57,151
So

775
00:27:58,102 --> 00:28:00,409
I know now when you go to any

776
00:28:00,409 --> 00:28:02,023
college or you go to any

777
00:28:02,955 --> 00:28:05,820
urban that you see lots of asians of

778
00:28:05,820 --> 00:28:06,638
all kinds

779
00:28:07,189 --> 00:28:08,787
But when I was growing up no.

780
00:28:09,826 --> 00:28:10,145
Mh.

781
00:28:10,705 --> 00:28:12,542
Must have been even harder, I was thinking

782
00:28:12,542 --> 00:28:14,700
for grandma when there aren't a lot of

783
00:28:14,700 --> 00:28:17,671
it... Other Chinese women around at all. So

784
00:28:17,671 --> 00:28:19,508
then you're really feeling at sea.

785
00:28:20,467 --> 00:28:20,706
Right.

786
00:28:22,954 --> 00:28:23,193
So,

787
00:28:24,704 --> 00:28:26,557
let's talk a little bit about you

788
00:28:27,250 --> 00:28:29,717
have studied art history, like, actually taken art

789
00:28:29,717 --> 00:28:30,592
history classes.

790
00:28:31,402 --> 00:28:33,728
Was that part of the required

791
00:28:34,181 --> 00:28:36,166
curriculum for you? Like, it's part that I

792
00:28:36,166 --> 00:28:38,072
go here. Was just wanted to do?

793
00:28:38,945 --> 00:28:39,819
It was an interest.

794
00:28:40,549 --> 00:28:41,509
Mh. In college.

795
00:28:42,150 --> 00:28:42,630
Mh.

796
00:28:43,029 --> 00:28:45,029
And my boyfriend at the time wasn't our

797
00:28:45,029 --> 00:28:45,830
history major.

798
00:28:46,230 --> 00:28:46,869
Mh You know?

799
00:28:48,884 --> 00:28:49,683
All sorts of things,

800
00:28:50,722 --> 00:28:52,000
and then also I had...

801
00:28:54,317 --> 00:28:56,475
Intellectually, I find it very interesting art history.

802
00:28:57,368 --> 00:28:59,282
Because... And there's a lot of...

803
00:29:00,478 --> 00:29:00,978
There's

804
00:29:01,675 --> 00:29:04,488
cultural stuff to learn their psychological

805
00:29:05,025 --> 00:29:06,755
stuff to figure out

806
00:29:07,192 --> 00:29:09,759
as well as the visual stuff and

807
00:29:10,212 --> 00:29:10,712
the

808
00:29:12,915 --> 00:29:13,415
the

809
00:29:14,346 --> 00:29:14,846
comparison

810
00:29:15,539 --> 00:29:16,039
between

811
00:29:16,428 --> 00:29:18,433
cultures can easily be

812
00:29:18,804 --> 00:29:19,122
done,

813
00:29:20,627 --> 00:29:22,053
studying the different art.

814
00:29:23,653 --> 00:29:25,187
Art styles, art history,

815
00:29:25,959 --> 00:29:26,698
the subjects,

816
00:29:27,470 --> 00:29:29,379
you know, what they think is important in

817
00:29:29,379 --> 00:29:31,628
1 culture may not be important in another

818
00:29:31,923 --> 00:29:34,961
the materials. It's anything to do with people,

819
00:29:35,279 --> 00:29:37,904
I find interesting. Mh. I'm compelling.

820
00:29:38,699 --> 00:29:39,199
So

821
00:29:40,703 --> 00:29:42,377
artist history? Yes, it fits.

822
00:29:43,651 --> 00:29:45,028
Is there a particular

823
00:29:45,564 --> 00:29:48,127
peak period of art that you're like This

824
00:29:48,127 --> 00:29:50,117
is it. This is my art period. I'd.

825
00:29:50,276 --> 00:29:52,208
Like, for me, I could look at the

826
00:29:52,424 --> 00:29:55,289
abstract expression all day long and never get

827
00:29:55,289 --> 00:29:56,085
bored by it.

828
00:29:57,932 --> 00:29:58,730
I don't think so.

829
00:30:00,085 --> 00:30:00,404
I think...

830
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,313
In that in that sense, I have very

831
00:30:04,313 --> 00:30:06,886
catholic taste, meaning, I have very broad

832
00:30:07,679 --> 00:30:07,919
taste.

833
00:30:11,275 --> 00:30:13,054
So let's talk a little bit

834
00:30:14,551 --> 00:30:15,051
about

835
00:30:16,404 --> 00:30:17,999
Well, I was gonna say, let's talk a

836
00:30:17,999 --> 00:30:19,753
little bit about how there was sort of

837
00:30:19,753 --> 00:30:21,746
a cultural shift. While you were in school

838
00:30:21,746 --> 00:30:23,420
there. I remember you've talked about, which is

839
00:30:23,420 --> 00:30:24,776
when you went into college,

840
00:30:25,349 --> 00:30:26,470
it was very,

841
00:30:28,230 --> 00:30:30,869
you know, women required to wear skirts at

842
00:30:30,869 --> 00:30:33,279
dinner and you had to, like, you know,

843
00:30:33,518 --> 00:30:35,818
it was it was very what I think

844
00:30:35,818 --> 00:30:36,690
of as, like,

845
00:30:37,404 --> 00:30:38,991
how can this be the world we live

846
00:30:38,991 --> 00:30:40,869
in, you know, you... The sort of x

847
00:30:41,227 --> 00:30:42,898
expectation that most of the women even in

848
00:30:42,898 --> 00:30:44,489
college would go on to be home and

849
00:30:44,489 --> 00:30:46,239
all this kind of stuff. And then by

850
00:30:46,239 --> 00:30:47,693
the time you left college

851
00:30:48,004 --> 00:30:50,311
something had shifted enormously and a lot of

852
00:30:50,311 --> 00:30:52,698
the rules had changed. I was in college

853
00:30:52,698 --> 00:30:53,834
in the late sixties.

854
00:30:55,338 --> 00:30:57,010
And so a lot of social movements were

855
00:30:57,010 --> 00:30:59,340
going on. There was a lot of rethinking

856
00:31:00,273 --> 00:31:00,773
about

857
00:31:01,944 --> 00:31:02,763
what was

858
00:31:03,949 --> 00:31:04,585
what was

859
00:31:06,734 --> 00:31:07,473
the norm

860
00:31:08,007 --> 00:31:08,325
changed.

861
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:09,780
So

862
00:31:10,568 --> 00:31:11,682
What I think is,

863
00:31:12,318 --> 00:31:14,568
there are times when social changes more

864
00:31:15,262 --> 00:31:15,580
quick,

865
00:31:16,296 --> 00:31:17,171
There are times when it's...

866
00:31:17,983 --> 00:31:20,457
Slower or it's regroup or re trench,

867
00:31:21,095 --> 00:31:21,414
but

868
00:31:23,250 --> 00:31:25,106
1 of the secrets I think of

869
00:31:25,499 --> 00:31:26,694
having a happy life,

870
00:31:27,809 --> 00:31:30,221
which is probably everybody it should be everybody's

871
00:31:31,075 --> 00:31:31,394
goal,

872
00:31:32,684 --> 00:31:33,742
is that you

873
00:31:34,678 --> 00:31:37,251
don't keep looking over your shoulder and saying

874
00:31:37,469 --> 00:31:38,767
it was better than

875
00:31:39,304 --> 00:31:41,377
because it isn't then, and it's never gonna

876
00:31:41,377 --> 00:31:42,095
be then again.

877
00:31:42,986 --> 00:31:45,611
You figure out what's gonna work for you

878
00:31:45,611 --> 00:31:46,486
in the new life.

879
00:31:47,122 --> 00:31:49,293
Doesn't mean you have to adopt every new

880
00:31:50,083 --> 00:31:52,875
social thing that comes along, cultural thing, but

881
00:31:52,875 --> 00:31:55,508
you have to figure out what's gonna work

882
00:31:55,508 --> 00:31:56,066
for you,

883
00:31:56,958 --> 00:31:59,030
now, and then look ahead to the future

884
00:31:59,030 --> 00:32:00,863
and say, oh, maybe I better learn to

885
00:32:00,863 --> 00:32:02,377
use a computer because when I went to

886
00:32:02,377 --> 00:32:05,025
college, nobody had a computer. I took 1

887
00:32:05,025 --> 00:32:07,745
course that was a very specialized course where

888
00:32:07,745 --> 00:32:09,904
we had the punch cards. Remember the punch

889
00:32:09,904 --> 00:32:10,144
cards,

890
00:32:10,785 --> 00:32:11,184
you don't.

891
00:32:11,825 --> 00:32:13,265
I don't. Not old enough.

892
00:32:13,917 --> 00:32:14,950
You know, and

893
00:32:17,495 --> 00:32:19,346
I remember learning that the

894
00:32:20,198 --> 00:32:21,391
the basic punch cards,

895
00:32:21,963 --> 00:32:23,719
had just these slots and it was either

896
00:32:23,719 --> 00:32:24,756
a plus or a minus,

897
00:32:25,314 --> 00:32:26,133
and you

898
00:32:29,239 --> 00:32:31,417
Remember learning that those were originally

899
00:32:32,276 --> 00:32:33,575
a result of

900
00:32:35,632 --> 00:32:39,154
centuries before figuring out how to weave textiles,

901
00:32:39,392 --> 00:32:40,923
and it was the textile

902
00:32:41,454 --> 00:32:43,754
designs that they did with punch cards,

903
00:32:46,468 --> 00:32:47,107
It makes sense.

904
00:32:48,065 --> 00:32:50,380
So well it's all related to art. That's

905
00:32:50,380 --> 00:32:51,519
why I heard. Sort

906
00:32:52,056 --> 00:32:54,372
panel. You know, it's either a little prong

907
00:32:54,372 --> 00:32:56,083
or it's not a frog. So

908
00:32:57,093 --> 00:32:57,991
I feel like

909
00:32:58,842 --> 00:33:00,853
for a long time, I could

910
00:33:01,863 --> 00:33:03,453
say, oh, I don't wanna learn how to

911
00:33:03,453 --> 00:33:06,674
do this computer thing. It's to... It's too

912
00:33:07,369 --> 00:33:07,869
difficult,

913
00:33:08,564 --> 00:33:10,317
and I'll need somebody else to do it

914
00:33:10,317 --> 00:33:11,831
for me, or you just go ahead and

915
00:33:11,831 --> 00:33:13,664
say, well, this is gonna be important in

916
00:33:13,664 --> 00:33:15,748
my daily life to figure it out. And

917
00:33:15,748 --> 00:33:17,497
it's the same thing with a lot of

918
00:33:17,497 --> 00:33:19,722
other things and same thing with art. I

919
00:33:19,722 --> 00:33:21,789
could sit around and say, all day, Oh,

920
00:33:21,949 --> 00:33:23,959
you know, I don't like this modern music

921
00:33:24,095 --> 00:33:26,683
to I went to several John Cage

922
00:33:28,337 --> 00:33:28,815
concert.

923
00:33:31,048 --> 00:33:33,202
For pup I don't know John Cage by

924
00:33:33,202 --> 00:33:35,212
the way. Just to be clear, like, a

925
00:33:35,372 --> 00:33:38,086
John Cage concert could involve like all the

926
00:33:38,086 --> 00:33:40,880
instruments being played at once, no instruments being

927
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,490
played, 1 note being held for 20 minutes

928
00:33:43,688 --> 00:33:45,041
like, it could be a lot of stuff.

929
00:33:45,518 --> 00:33:48,222
So perhaps, 1 of the... I went to

930
00:33:48,222 --> 00:33:48,722
1

931
00:33:49,177 --> 00:33:49,677
where

932
00:33:50,703 --> 00:33:53,031
it was Mae Cunningham was a chore.

933
00:33:53,485 --> 00:33:56,188
He was chore these dancers, and the music

934
00:33:56,188 --> 00:33:56,688
was

935
00:33:57,062 --> 00:33:59,049
someone was going around the building of the

936
00:33:59,049 --> 00:33:59,367
theater.

937
00:34:01,138 --> 00:34:01,638
With

938
00:34:02,177 --> 00:34:04,893
broadcasting equipment, and he would be, like, in

939
00:34:04,893 --> 00:34:06,571
the basement banging on the pipes,

940
00:34:08,423 --> 00:34:11,120
just taking noises from the building,

941
00:34:11,596 --> 00:34:14,237
and then the dancers would be dancing. So

942
00:34:15,483 --> 00:34:16,141
that was

943
00:34:17,245 --> 00:34:18,996
That was 1 of those situations where it

944
00:34:18,996 --> 00:34:19,553
was either...

945
00:34:21,065 --> 00:34:22,895
You can open your mind to it and

946
00:34:22,895 --> 00:34:24,661
try to figure out if any part of

947
00:34:24,661 --> 00:34:26,174
it works for you or you can just

948
00:34:26,174 --> 00:34:29,201
say, oh, that's not for me. Mh. That's

949
00:34:29,201 --> 00:34:32,488
dumb. Mh. And then On, and I think

950
00:34:33,278 --> 00:34:33,778
that

951
00:34:34,393 --> 00:34:35,429
a lot of times,

952
00:34:36,066 --> 00:34:38,615
I try to think, well, you know, what

953
00:34:38,615 --> 00:34:39,651
is my resistance?

954
00:34:40,302 --> 00:34:42,286
What is the basis of my resistance to

955
00:34:42,286 --> 00:34:44,428
this new art form, and then I try

956
00:34:44,428 --> 00:34:46,753
to figure out, is there anything here

957
00:34:47,537 --> 00:34:49,783
that appeals to me because

958
00:34:50,235 --> 00:34:53,329
just rejecting things is not the way that

959
00:34:53,488 --> 00:34:54,123
I like to live.

960
00:34:54,773 --> 00:34:56,385
Yeah. And that's something you've definitely

961
00:34:56,917 --> 00:34:58,108
given to me. I mean you've taken me

962
00:34:58,108 --> 00:34:59,458
to a lot of eye rulers.

963
00:35:00,649 --> 00:35:02,896
You take takes through a lot of the

964
00:35:03,110 --> 00:35:05,994
recycling any events. Would it be in place

965
00:35:05,994 --> 00:35:09,105
true. But everything from simple things like jazz

966
00:35:09,105 --> 00:35:11,155
concerts where I was, like, what has happened

967
00:35:11,432 --> 00:35:13,102
as the music fell heard around me, and

968
00:35:13,181 --> 00:35:16,043
I don't understand anything that's happening to, you

969
00:35:16,043 --> 00:35:20,017
know, modern dance, where again, I'm deeply confused.

970
00:35:20,826 --> 00:35:21,326
To

971
00:35:21,699 --> 00:35:23,365
contemporary arts. So just a lot of things,

972
00:35:23,524 --> 00:35:24,818
and you've always been

973
00:35:25,190 --> 00:35:26,563
a person who

974
00:35:27,889 --> 00:35:31,338
pushes me to look harder or look further

975
00:35:31,393 --> 00:35:34,009
think about it. Like, and and to understand

976
00:35:34,009 --> 00:35:36,650
context as well? Like, what is

977
00:35:37,119 --> 00:35:39,612
what is John Cage doing that as a

978
00:35:39,671 --> 00:35:41,744
reaction to? And if you can understand the

979
00:35:41,744 --> 00:35:43,659
intellectual underpinning of what he's trying to get

980
00:35:43,659 --> 00:35:45,754
to, can you then at the very least

981
00:35:45,892 --> 00:35:46,392
appreciates

982
00:35:47,103 --> 00:35:48,400
you know, the thought

983
00:35:48,936 --> 00:35:51,327
that's out there, even if you're not like,

984
00:35:51,726 --> 00:35:54,116
moving your body to the pipes or whatever

985
00:35:54,116 --> 00:35:54,570
else

986
00:35:55,006 --> 00:35:56,831
may happening. And so I think that's very

987
00:35:56,831 --> 00:35:58,045
much a way that I

988
00:35:58,815 --> 00:36:01,433
try to approach my own making and try

989
00:36:01,433 --> 00:36:04,237
to have conversations with people about. There are

990
00:36:04,237 --> 00:36:06,469
my art and, you know, try to also

991
00:36:06,469 --> 00:36:09,260
embrace in the teaching is like, it's that

992
00:36:09,260 --> 00:36:11,587
old thing a little bit about walking a

993
00:36:11,587 --> 00:36:13,738
mile and somebody else's shoes in some way

994
00:36:13,738 --> 00:36:15,890
because it's the idea that you need to

995
00:36:15,890 --> 00:36:17,802
not just, like, have a wall of judgment,

996
00:36:19,014 --> 00:36:20,313
that snaps up

997
00:36:20,692 --> 00:36:21,171
automatically,

998
00:36:21,570 --> 00:36:23,568
but you need to take a moment with

999
00:36:23,568 --> 00:36:25,805
all sorts of things and say like, okay.

1000
00:36:26,219 --> 00:36:28,295
Let's try to drill down here. And it's

1001
00:36:28,295 --> 00:36:31,029
it's even in this little stuff like somebody

1002
00:36:31,407 --> 00:36:33,243
gives you attitude gives you the finger on

1003
00:36:33,243 --> 00:36:34,840
the road, like as a total jerk, like,

1004
00:36:35,094 --> 00:36:36,534
can you take a moment and breathe and

1005
00:36:36,534 --> 00:36:36,855
say,

1006
00:36:38,215 --> 00:36:39,815
maybe they're having a terrible day?

1007
00:36:40,614 --> 00:36:41,914
You know? And

1008
00:36:43,987 --> 00:36:45,900
They will. Yeah. And if they're not, they

1009
00:36:45,900 --> 00:36:48,769
are gonna be now. Anyway, yeah. So there

1010
00:36:48,769 --> 00:36:49,725
a lot of about that.

1011
00:36:51,001 --> 00:36:53,633
Okay. So now you have been an art

1012
00:36:53,633 --> 00:36:55,853
collector as long as I have known you.

1013
00:36:57,438 --> 00:36:58,786
Is that something that you like.

1014
00:36:59,519 --> 00:37:01,597
Started early on? Is this something that you

1015
00:37:01,597 --> 00:37:03,275
came to later in life? Or did you

1016
00:37:03,275 --> 00:37:05,193
always like to buy art?

1017
00:37:05,753 --> 00:37:07,691
Well, I'll tell you where, I think

1018
00:37:09,918 --> 00:37:10,316
You know,

1019
00:37:11,112 --> 00:37:13,419
when your teenager, you decorate your rooms, so

1020
00:37:13,419 --> 00:37:15,329
you have posters and you stuff like that.

1021
00:37:15,488 --> 00:37:16,920
And then I went to college and the

1022
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:19,502
college I went to, actually had a program

1023
00:37:19,557 --> 00:37:21,090
still has it where you can

1024
00:37:21,622 --> 00:37:22,122
borrow

1025
00:37:23,130 --> 00:37:23,630
art

1026
00:37:24,877 --> 00:37:26,703
from the museum that's connected.

1027
00:37:27,673 --> 00:37:29,588
You know, not know that. That's really cool.

1028
00:37:29,987 --> 00:37:32,082
Borrowed for your dorm room

1029
00:37:33,417 --> 00:37:35,685
for the year. Wow. So

1030
00:37:36,538 --> 00:37:39,164
I started doing that. Mh. And as a

1031
00:37:39,164 --> 00:37:41,654
result, I I enjoyed the

1032
00:37:42,364 --> 00:37:44,304
I enjoyed it. And so

1033
00:37:45,164 --> 00:37:46,925
I also am kind of a pack rat,

1034
00:37:47,005 --> 00:37:48,784
and I like to have

1035
00:37:49,976 --> 00:37:52,282
something from where I... I went on a

1036
00:37:52,282 --> 00:37:53,259
trip or,

1037
00:37:53,634 --> 00:37:54,929
you know, I might

1038
00:37:55,463 --> 00:37:58,007
save something from a restaurant that had us

1039
00:37:58,007 --> 00:37:58,507
particularly

1040
00:37:59,374 --> 00:37:59,693
Mh.

1041
00:38:00,491 --> 00:38:00,991
Important

1042
00:38:01,528 --> 00:38:03,703
moment for me there or something. So

1043
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:04,900
I

1044
00:38:05,277 --> 00:38:06,256
I like having

1045
00:38:06,807 --> 00:38:07,603
those things.

1046
00:38:08,240 --> 00:38:08,638
And

1047
00:38:09,514 --> 00:38:11,685
so the combination just sort of

1048
00:38:13,175 --> 00:38:14,926
was good for me. And then I like

1049
00:38:14,926 --> 00:38:15,744
going to

1050
00:38:16,373 --> 00:38:18,518
craft fares, artisan and fares, you know what

1051
00:38:18,598 --> 00:38:19,631
I mean? Art fairs.

1052
00:38:20,584 --> 00:38:21,084
And

1053
00:38:22,730 --> 00:38:24,795
when you see something that you like, maybe

1054
00:38:24,795 --> 00:38:26,324
like to take it home and maybe it's

1055
00:38:26,324 --> 00:38:28,317
in your price range, so you do take

1056
00:38:28,317 --> 00:38:30,548
it home. Mh. But I will also cut

1057
00:38:30,548 --> 00:38:31,367
things out

1058
00:38:31,744 --> 00:38:32,994
and put them up wanna

1059
00:38:34,230 --> 00:38:36,005
you know, just because

1060
00:38:37,179 --> 00:38:39,012
I like to be reminded of that, so

1061
00:38:39,172 --> 00:38:40,606
I'll cut something out of a,

1062
00:38:41,977 --> 00:38:43,253
program or something.

1063
00:38:44,529 --> 00:38:46,762
Yes. And you always have early calendars it's

1064
00:38:46,762 --> 00:38:48,358
become quite a tradition that you can all

1065
00:38:48,358 --> 00:38:50,272
of us are at calendars each year too.

1066
00:38:51,641 --> 00:38:55,007
Yes. Currently, the the grandchildren are in the

1067
00:38:55,780 --> 00:38:56,280
Dinosaur

1068
00:38:57,690 --> 00:39:00,817
t mutant ninja turtle calendars, which are less

1069
00:39:02,248 --> 00:39:02,748
less

1070
00:39:04,885 --> 00:39:06,563
interesting to me, but I try to get

1071
00:39:06,563 --> 00:39:08,880
something that's interesting to them and then every

1072
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:11,129
month is like changing little art show in

1073
00:39:11,129 --> 00:39:12,404
their rooms. Mh.

1074
00:39:13,121 --> 00:39:14,636
Well, also, I have the best our calendar.

1075
00:39:14,875 --> 00:39:16,071
I mean, I do have a Ka ski

1076
00:39:16,071 --> 00:39:17,665
monthly calendar that's stuck on March.

1077
00:39:18,955 --> 00:39:21,345
But I also have this art a day

1078
00:39:21,345 --> 00:39:23,655
calendar from the met that this is the

1079
00:39:23,655 --> 00:39:24,930
second year in a row. They've got me

1080
00:39:24,930 --> 00:39:27,001
this calendar. Is my absolute favorite calendar at

1081
00:39:27,161 --> 00:39:29,241
I 2 thumbs up recommended it to anybody.

1082
00:39:29,717 --> 00:39:32,496
It's a daily calendar. It's a desk calendar,

1083
00:39:32,734 --> 00:39:34,560
and it has a work of art from

1084
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:37,120
the Med collect. In with a picture, and

1085
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:39,508
then a little bit about the art r

1086
00:39:39,508 --> 00:39:39,906
on it.

1087
00:39:41,020 --> 00:39:42,771
Weekends very disappointing.

1088
00:39:43,184 --> 00:39:45,173
Saturday of Sunday are lumped together, so it's

1089
00:39:45,173 --> 00:39:48,197
not every day. Seems wrong. Doesn't it... Advertising

1090
00:39:48,197 --> 00:39:49,311
says it's every day of the week.

1091
00:39:50,107 --> 00:39:52,275
But, yeah. So it's great. I love it.

1092
00:39:52,514 --> 00:39:54,588
I discover Ulcers sorts mentioning things. I thought,

1093
00:39:55,147 --> 00:39:57,242
in a in a interesting coincidence

1094
00:39:58,032 --> 00:39:58,532
yesterday,

1095
00:39:59,460 --> 00:40:01,706
there was a statue by Harriet H,

1096
00:40:02,237 --> 00:40:06,179
who actually is who many things in this

1097
00:40:06,298 --> 00:40:07,807
town that we live in in Water town

1098
00:40:07,807 --> 00:40:10,506
were named after Harriet H. So I was

1099
00:40:10,506 --> 00:40:11,935
like, oh my gosh. And I don't think

1100
00:40:12,014 --> 00:40:13,974
I'd ever really seen a picture of town

1101
00:40:14,173 --> 00:40:15,601
it's a picture of her with 1 of

1102
00:40:15,601 --> 00:40:17,664
her enormous sculptures, and I don't think I

1103
00:40:17,664 --> 00:40:19,965
had ever seen in that picture, so that

1104
00:40:19,965 --> 00:40:21,488
was kind of an exciting. And I I

1105
00:40:21,488 --> 00:40:23,395
felt like, a real home hometown when I

1106
00:40:23,395 --> 00:40:24,904
was like, oh my god. It's... And I

1107
00:40:25,063 --> 00:40:25,937
I had him moment where I was like,

1108
00:40:26,096 --> 00:40:27,129
I know her. And I was like, you

1109
00:40:27,129 --> 00:40:29,132
don't know her. She's dead. What are you

1110
00:40:29,132 --> 00:40:32,317
talking about? But anyway, it felt very personal

1111
00:40:32,317 --> 00:40:33,591
more than, like, when you see a, you

1112
00:40:33,591 --> 00:40:35,025
know, a famous pager. But there been a

1113
00:40:35,025 --> 00:40:37,349
couple of contemporary painters in the calendar, who

1114
00:40:37,428 --> 00:40:38,942
I've been like, oh, I didn't know this

1115
00:40:38,942 --> 00:40:40,854
person and now I do, and that's exciting

1116
00:40:40,854 --> 00:40:42,367
and I go look them up, you know,

1117
00:40:42,606 --> 00:40:44,040
somebody new to think about.

1118
00:40:45,088 --> 00:40:45,247
Okay.

1119
00:40:46,358 --> 00:40:48,025
That's neither here nor there. I was gonna

1120
00:40:48,025 --> 00:40:50,328
say, now the question I have is, has

1121
00:40:50,328 --> 00:40:51,145
the podcast

1122
00:40:52,647 --> 00:40:55,059
in any way, changed your thinking

1123
00:40:55,755 --> 00:40:57,827
about art or clarified it in some way.

1124
00:40:58,464 --> 00:40:59,522
I don't think it's

1125
00:40:59,913 --> 00:41:02,082
change the way I think about art because

1126
00:41:02,695 --> 00:41:04,603
we're often talking about artists.

1127
00:41:05,159 --> 00:41:06,988
Mh. And the work of being an artist,

1128
00:41:07,147 --> 00:41:08,737
and the life of being an artist.

1129
00:41:09,309 --> 00:41:09,809
And

1130
00:41:10,582 --> 00:41:11,241
I think

1131
00:41:12,651 --> 00:41:15,039
it gives me insight into some of the

1132
00:41:15,039 --> 00:41:16,551
issues that you have.

1133
00:41:17,043 --> 00:41:17,681
In your work.

1134
00:41:18,476 --> 00:41:20,148
And since I'm interested in you,

1135
00:41:21,502 --> 00:41:22,378
at least for now,

1136
00:41:23,492 --> 00:41:24,607
it's interesting to me.

1137
00:41:25,498 --> 00:41:27,253
Is it a surprise to you that I

1138
00:41:27,253 --> 00:41:27,891
became an artist?

1139
00:41:29,407 --> 00:41:31,719
Well, yes. Because first, you decided you were

1140
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:33,873
gonna be a political scientist for... I have

1141
00:41:33,873 --> 00:41:34,751
no idea why.

1142
00:41:35,483 --> 00:41:36,781
And then you became,

1143
00:41:37,477 --> 00:41:38,993
but theatrical director.

1144
00:41:40,668 --> 00:41:42,183
And then you were busy working as a

1145
00:41:42,183 --> 00:41:44,996
theatrical director in New York, and then

1146
00:41:45,867 --> 00:41:47,701
We had this little scrapbook hobby.

1147
00:41:48,338 --> 00:41:48,817
Mh.

1148
00:41:49,215 --> 00:41:50,672
The the next thing I know

1149
00:41:51,129 --> 00:41:52,883
you decide you're gonna do that.

1150
00:41:54,808 --> 00:41:57,425
And actually managed to make money at that.

1151
00:41:59,566 --> 00:42:01,548
And then the next thing I know now,

1152
00:42:02,199 --> 00:42:02,915
you're doing this.

1153
00:42:03,950 --> 00:42:07,374
I think what's what I... It's logical. The

1154
00:42:07,374 --> 00:42:08,272
progression is logical,

1155
00:42:09,126 --> 00:42:09,444
but

1156
00:42:11,055 --> 00:42:12,335
The thing is that both you and your

1157
00:42:12,335 --> 00:42:13,875
brother have ended up doing

1158
00:42:15,375 --> 00:42:15,875
Arts

1159
00:42:16,335 --> 00:42:17,555
careers, which

1160
00:42:18,508 --> 00:42:20,420
is not the right surprising to me at

1161
00:42:20,420 --> 00:42:22,173
all because like think... Same for you as

1162
00:42:22,173 --> 00:42:23,049
an Asian parent,

1163
00:42:23,766 --> 00:42:26,174
deep shame for you. Have you Have you

1164
00:42:26,174 --> 00:42:28,492
no Asian tiger mom and you at all?

1165
00:42:30,010 --> 00:42:32,168
Where's your dad Yes. You should be answering

1166
00:42:32,168 --> 00:42:32,328
that.

1167
00:42:33,047 --> 00:42:35,045
You're the 1 can be answering that.

1168
00:42:35,697 --> 00:42:37,999
I have no shame. I'm out... I've been

1169
00:42:37,999 --> 00:42:40,063
shamed too much. I've got 1 parent who's

1170
00:42:40,142 --> 00:42:41,967
Jewish, 1 parent who's chinese. There's so much

1171
00:42:41,967 --> 00:42:44,525
shame in between. It has negated itself. And

1172
00:42:44,605 --> 00:42:45,644
Have become a positive.

1173
00:42:46,045 --> 00:42:47,025
Now I'm shameless.

1174
00:42:48,765 --> 00:42:50,365
And I married a catholic man, so I'm

1175
00:42:50,365 --> 00:42:52,525
just saying guilt guilt guilt guilt guilt guilt

1176
00:42:52,525 --> 00:42:52,765
guilt.

1177
00:42:54,530 --> 00:42:55,428
Okay. So

1178
00:42:56,121 --> 00:42:57,018
I would say,

1179
00:42:58,268 --> 00:43:00,016
how do you think that if the podcast

1180
00:43:00,016 --> 00:43:01,702
hasn't sort of changed or shaped to you.

1181
00:43:01,940 --> 00:43:03,850
How do you think you have changed or

1182
00:43:03,850 --> 00:43:06,635
shave the podcast. The podcast is different because

1183
00:43:06,635 --> 00:43:07,669
you are a part of it?

1184
00:43:08,464 --> 00:43:11,025
I think because I am or so much

1185
00:43:11,025 --> 00:43:11,423
older.

1186
00:43:11,980 --> 00:43:12,878
Yeah I

1187
00:43:13,809 --> 00:43:14,628
view things,

1188
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:16,139
in a more

1189
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:18,358
you know,

1190
00:43:19,074 --> 00:43:20,210
a mile high

1191
00:43:20,982 --> 00:43:23,209
viewpoint as opposed to on the ground.

1192
00:43:23,924 --> 00:43:25,833
And I think it's a good balance.

1193
00:43:26,469 --> 00:43:26,787
Mh.

1194
00:43:27,439 --> 00:43:29,355
Because often and I... I think because you're

1195
00:43:29,355 --> 00:43:32,149
older though. I think, like, that has you...

1196
00:43:32,469 --> 00:43:34,065
I mean, like, hey, yes. You've always been

1197
00:43:34,065 --> 00:43:35,502
older than me. It is the nature of

1198
00:43:35,502 --> 00:43:38,150
being a mother and a daughter. But like,

1199
00:43:38,708 --> 00:43:40,143
you have always been something and I think,

1200
00:43:40,223 --> 00:43:42,535
like, on all the committees you work on

1201
00:43:42,535 --> 00:43:44,130
and all the things you've done, people have

1202
00:43:44,130 --> 00:43:47,277
always said, like, you're the... Person who always

1203
00:43:47,336 --> 00:43:47,836
takes

1204
00:43:48,213 --> 00:43:48,873
the longer

1205
00:43:49,411 --> 00:43:52,066
bigger picture view who wants to talk about

1206
00:43:52,204 --> 00:43:53,024
the consequences

1207
00:43:53,561 --> 00:43:54,061
past

1208
00:43:54,453 --> 00:43:57,713
a single action who sees the big picture

1209
00:43:57,713 --> 00:43:59,405
and insists upon

1210
00:43:59,860 --> 00:44:01,847
shoving the ugly big picture in your face

1211
00:44:01,847 --> 00:44:03,438
when you just wanna focus on some other

1212
00:44:03,438 --> 00:44:04,669
things like that always

1213
00:44:05,046 --> 00:44:07,778
been who you are and it's not unrelated

1214
00:44:08,314 --> 00:44:11,605
to the idea of, like, being open.

1215
00:44:13,033 --> 00:44:13,352
Right,

1216
00:44:14,070 --> 00:44:14,570
to

1217
00:44:15,266 --> 00:44:17,739
things that are happening and not like slamming

1218
00:44:17,739 --> 00:44:19,095
up a wall. I mean, it's a very

1219
00:44:19,095 --> 00:44:21,088
similar way of thinking in my mind. Do

1220
00:44:21,088 --> 00:44:22,147
you agree

1221
00:44:23,259 --> 00:44:23,898
My god.

1222
00:44:24,777 --> 00:44:25,176
Yes.

1223
00:44:26,215 --> 00:44:27,653
Like I know you.

1224
00:44:28,692 --> 00:44:30,849
I'm gonna be mu this over to tonight.

1225
00:44:31,898 --> 00:44:32,532
And new site?

1226
00:44:33,644 --> 00:44:35,017
Yes. Your this therapy

1227
00:44:35,390 --> 00:44:36,898
will be 475

1228
00:44:36,898 --> 00:44:37,215
dollars.

1229
00:44:38,168 --> 00:44:38,985
So my...

1230
00:44:40,009 --> 00:44:42,016
Podcast will be 500

1231
00:44:42,072 --> 00:44:42,310
horse.

1232
00:44:43,183 --> 00:44:44,850
My am I always losing money on this

1233
00:44:44,850 --> 00:44:45,350
podcast.

1234
00:44:46,914 --> 00:44:48,343
Yeah. I mean, I think that...

1235
00:44:49,073 --> 00:44:50,369
I know that you

1236
00:44:50,745 --> 00:44:51,723
have always

1237
00:44:52,179 --> 00:44:52,679
been

1238
00:44:53,054 --> 00:44:54,408
sort of the voice of reason,

1239
00:44:54,965 --> 00:44:56,262
the person who...

1240
00:44:57,530 --> 00:44:58,429
I'm I

1241
00:44:58,809 --> 00:45:00,809
I can be hot headed.

1242
00:45:01,210 --> 00:45:01,690
Shall we say?

1243
00:45:02,650 --> 00:45:04,489
Yeah. Just a little bit Union insight for

1244
00:45:04,489 --> 00:45:06,170
you then. The big sight.

1245
00:45:07,221 --> 00:45:08,415
And have a little bit of a spark.

1246
00:45:08,574 --> 00:45:10,885
And so it's very interesting because I think

1247
00:45:10,885 --> 00:45:13,194
both you and Steve, my husband often are

1248
00:45:13,194 --> 00:45:14,947
the ones who are like, whoa whoa, whoa.

1249
00:45:16,396 --> 00:45:16,714
Ref,

1250
00:45:17,351 --> 00:45:17,989
calm down.

1251
00:45:19,184 --> 00:45:20,857
Let's think about this for a moment.

1252
00:45:22,784 --> 00:45:25,833
And, like, that's that's an important dynamic.

1253
00:45:27,087 --> 00:45:29,159
Well, if there's 1 thing I do often

1254
00:45:29,159 --> 00:45:32,031
say, I think, when something comes up, that's

1255
00:45:32,031 --> 00:45:33,695
upsetting. I say time is a player.

1256
00:45:34,804 --> 00:45:35,938
You. So

1257
00:45:38,153 --> 00:45:40,867
many things, which are feel urgent,

1258
00:45:43,183 --> 00:45:45,498
I'm not saying everything, But many things which

1259
00:45:45,498 --> 00:45:46,317
feel urgent

1260
00:45:47,588 --> 00:45:48,567
time will

1261
00:45:50,780 --> 00:45:51,280
help

1262
00:45:52,297 --> 00:45:53,813
figuring it out. Mh.

1263
00:45:54,212 --> 00:45:54,712
So

1264
00:45:55,503 --> 00:45:58,213
they don't have to necessarily be resolved this

1265
00:45:58,213 --> 00:45:58,692
second.

1266
00:46:00,126 --> 00:46:02,358
You may change circumstances may change, you know,

1267
00:46:02,597 --> 00:46:02,995
whatever.

1268
00:46:03,963 --> 00:46:04,463
So

1269
00:46:04,916 --> 00:46:07,717
it's a way of thinking about life where

1270
00:46:08,170 --> 00:46:10,234
it means that you're not moving from crisis

1271
00:46:10,234 --> 00:46:12,155
to Crisis. All the time. Now, course course,

1272
00:46:12,315 --> 00:46:13,427
there are some things that are.

1273
00:46:14,143 --> 00:46:14,643
Urgent.

1274
00:46:15,256 --> 00:46:18,379
But I'm saying not everything that is upsetting

1275
00:46:19,644 --> 00:46:21,633
has to be resolved this minute.

1276
00:46:22,190 --> 00:46:22,985
At a level 10.

1277
00:46:23,781 --> 00:46:25,770
Yeah. I agree. Alright agree.

1278
00:46:26,503 --> 00:46:28,257
Well, how do you think that the podcast

1279
00:46:28,257 --> 00:46:30,251
has changed over the last 12 years?

1280
00:46:31,049 --> 00:46:31,927
Well, for 1 thing,

1281
00:46:32,724 --> 00:46:34,718
as you said, we used to have a

1282
00:46:34,718 --> 00:46:37,362
guest every time. Mh. And now we have

1283
00:46:37,362 --> 00:46:39,193
a guest sometimes. Mh.

1284
00:46:39,989 --> 00:46:41,603
So it's actually

1285
00:46:42,297 --> 00:46:43,332
enabled your voice,

1286
00:46:43,983 --> 00:46:45,806
particular to be heard more, which is I

1287
00:46:45,806 --> 00:46:46,306
think

1288
00:46:47,073 --> 00:46:49,609
the basis of why people are attracted to

1289
00:46:49,609 --> 00:46:50,584
this podcast,

1290
00:46:51,035 --> 00:46:53,679
particular Because with something you used to tell

1291
00:46:53,679 --> 00:46:54,555
me all the time,

1292
00:46:55,352 --> 00:46:56,945
which is you would say you need to

1293
00:46:56,945 --> 00:46:59,654
talk more. You need to. When you were

1294
00:46:59,654 --> 00:47:00,212
you were, like,

1295
00:47:01,024 --> 00:47:02,882
the moderator slash hostess,

1296
00:47:03,501 --> 00:47:05,338
and you do walked to... You wanted to

1297
00:47:05,338 --> 00:47:06,238
have the guest

1298
00:47:06,857 --> 00:47:07,256
shine,

1299
00:47:07,815 --> 00:47:08,315
but

1300
00:47:08,949 --> 00:47:10,704
I feel like a lot of times people

1301
00:47:10,704 --> 00:47:12,779
were tuning in not just for the guest,

1302
00:47:13,498 --> 00:47:14,455
but for you,

1303
00:47:15,094 --> 00:47:18,557
your thoughts, your reactions, you're. Experiences. And so

1304
00:47:19,012 --> 00:47:21,500
this has been, I think a good trend

1305
00:47:22,113 --> 00:47:23,249
for the podcast.

1306
00:47:24,101 --> 00:47:24,578
Mh.

1307
00:47:25,373 --> 00:47:27,219
I will say that I think that the

1308
00:47:27,219 --> 00:47:28,973
reason when I think about the podcast that

1309
00:47:29,133 --> 00:47:29,633
I

1310
00:47:30,010 --> 00:47:30,329
like.

1311
00:47:31,286 --> 00:47:34,876
It's almost always that there's something about the

1312
00:47:34,876 --> 00:47:36,093
host personality,

1313
00:47:36,963 --> 00:47:39,423
or something that I'm attracted to. Usually, if

1314
00:47:39,503 --> 00:47:41,407
I get annoyed by the host even when

1315
00:47:41,407 --> 00:47:43,152
the content is really good and like, for

1316
00:47:43,152 --> 00:47:44,818
instance, there are a couple marketing podcast that

1317
00:47:44,977 --> 00:47:46,505
I had stop listening to because I was

1318
00:47:46,505 --> 00:47:47,404
so annoyed

1319
00:47:48,338 --> 00:47:50,332
by the hosts that I just couldn't do

1320
00:47:50,332 --> 00:47:51,687
it. And there are other pockets were, like,

1321
00:47:51,926 --> 00:47:53,521
I'm not even really interested in the topic.

1322
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:55,844
So but I like the host so much

1323
00:47:56,083 --> 00:47:57,515
I enjoy it or I find it funny,

1324
00:47:57,834 --> 00:48:00,221
so I keep listening because I think podcasts

1325
00:48:00,221 --> 00:48:01,176
are intimate,

1326
00:48:01,748 --> 00:48:03,731
like it's... For the most part, it's somebody

1327
00:48:03,731 --> 00:48:06,191
in your house, you're doing something. They're with

1328
00:48:06,191 --> 00:48:08,016
you. They're in your car... They're sitting in

1329
00:48:08,016 --> 00:48:09,523
their car with you. I mean, when I

1330
00:48:09,523 --> 00:48:11,135
paint to... A painting and listen to a

1331
00:48:11,135 --> 00:48:12,655
podcast. Like, there's 1 where I was on

1332
00:48:12,655 --> 00:48:14,815
a street with this podcast Morbid, which is

1333
00:48:14,815 --> 00:48:17,775
all, like, I'm... It's a murder podcast basically,

1334
00:48:18,575 --> 00:48:21,539
a serial killer podcast, also, and I swear

1335
00:48:21,539 --> 00:48:23,766
to you, I just... Every time I look

1336
00:48:23,766 --> 00:48:26,153
at that painting, I just think she was

1337
00:48:26,153 --> 00:48:29,041
murdered. She was found crammed under the bed

1338
00:48:29,041 --> 00:48:30,879
naked and I'm like, oh, gosh, that's in

1339
00:48:30,879 --> 00:48:33,355
the painting now because it's in my head.

1340
00:48:34,009 --> 00:48:35,997
So I should really listen to more positive

1341
00:48:35,997 --> 00:48:37,509
things what I'm working. I feel like...

1342
00:48:39,815 --> 00:48:40,531
Okay. So...

1343
00:48:41,024 --> 00:48:43,895
I would say thinking about where the podcast

1344
00:48:43,895 --> 00:48:46,288
might be going? Yeah. Where would you like

1345
00:48:46,288 --> 00:48:47,803
it to go? We when I like it

1346
00:48:47,803 --> 00:48:49,637
to go Well, I mean, I'd like it

1347
00:48:49,637 --> 00:48:51,959
if it magic made money or something that

1348
00:48:51,959 --> 00:48:52,832
would be great. But,

1349
00:48:54,023 --> 00:48:55,213
at the end of the day, like, where

1350
00:48:55,213 --> 00:48:56,245
would I like it to go? What would

1351
00:48:56,403 --> 00:48:58,388
I like it to do? I would love

1352
00:48:58,388 --> 00:49:01,663
it if we the workflow of it could

1353
00:49:01,663 --> 00:49:03,494
become a little bit easier for me. Like,

1354
00:49:03,653 --> 00:49:05,643
there... I love coming up with the topics,

1355
00:49:05,802 --> 00:49:08,031
and I love drafting the thoughts. I love

1356
00:49:08,031 --> 00:49:10,274
the recording of it. I hate editing it.

1357
00:49:10,910 --> 00:49:13,217
I hate all the technical back end stuff

1358
00:49:13,217 --> 00:49:14,887
that has to get done to like, generate

1359
00:49:14,887 --> 00:49:16,183
a transcript and

1360
00:49:16,572 --> 00:49:18,795
get the metadata in it and little, you

1361
00:49:18,795 --> 00:49:20,938
know, like, the really boring technical part of

1362
00:49:20,938 --> 00:49:23,105
it. I hate all that part. So maybe

1363
00:49:23,557 --> 00:49:24,851
your phone because

1364
00:49:25,319 --> 00:49:27,075
A lot of podcasts don't have any of

1365
00:49:27,075 --> 00:49:28,692
that, and yet you

1366
00:49:29,389 --> 00:49:31,465
decided to put that in. Well, I mean,

1367
00:49:31,624 --> 00:49:33,242
some ago you do

1368
00:49:33,793 --> 00:49:34,848
are the master

1369
00:49:35,220 --> 00:49:36,964
faith there. None of it you need to

1370
00:49:36,964 --> 00:49:38,787
do. I really I should... If... If the

1371
00:49:38,787 --> 00:49:39,976
pie hasn't ever made my money, Feel like

1372
00:49:40,056 --> 00:49:40,928
I would pay somebody?

1373
00:49:41,419 --> 00:49:43,096
To do it do. That's the main thing.

1374
00:49:43,335 --> 00:49:43,734
Right? Sure.

1375
00:49:44,771 --> 00:49:46,128
But I think, like, in terms of where

1376
00:49:46,128 --> 00:49:49,002
it's going, I think for me in some

1377
00:49:49,002 --> 00:49:51,960
ways the podcast is reflection always of where

1378
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:52,778
I am

1379
00:49:53,787 --> 00:49:56,885
in my thought process, and I I love

1380
00:49:56,885 --> 00:49:59,047
that about it. Like, this I...

1381
00:49:59,684 --> 00:50:01,994
Yeah. It's old about you. It is. I'm

1382
00:50:01,994 --> 00:50:03,986
the mis piggy in the situation. I've said

1383
00:50:03,986 --> 00:50:04,544
that before.

1384
00:50:07,029 --> 00:50:08,784
She's a heart of gold, but she's got

1385
00:50:08,784 --> 00:50:10,936
a short fuse, and it's all about.

1386
00:50:11,972 --> 00:50:13,806
So I think like, the thing is,

1387
00:50:14,937 --> 00:50:15,097
It's...

1388
00:50:16,053 --> 00:50:16,849
I like the...

1389
00:50:17,646 --> 00:50:19,878
I like sort of that idea that it

1390
00:50:19,878 --> 00:50:21,232
reflects where Am because when I look back

1391
00:50:21,232 --> 00:50:23,400
at Episodes, from a year ago, 2 years

1392
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:25,553
ago, I can see that I was thinking

1393
00:50:25,553 --> 00:50:27,068
about the whole idea, for instance, of an

1394
00:50:27,068 --> 00:50:28,982
art practice and my art practice and all

1395
00:50:28,982 --> 00:50:30,758
that kind of stuff. But I I hadn't

1396
00:50:30,817 --> 00:50:33,784
actually from formalized it even to myself, but

1397
00:50:33,784 --> 00:50:35,859
all the seeds were there, and it's, like,

1398
00:50:35,939 --> 00:50:38,014
now I have this record of it that's

1399
00:50:38,014 --> 00:50:40,663
fascinating to me that it's there. That it

1400
00:50:40,663 --> 00:50:43,617
exists that it was what's I was interested

1401
00:50:43,617 --> 00:50:45,453
in. And the same thing with, you know,

1402
00:50:45,533 --> 00:50:47,928
the very first podcast we ever did was

1403
00:50:47,928 --> 00:50:48,986
with Rhonda Palo

1404
00:50:49,538 --> 00:50:51,942
and it was on the topic of failure.

1405
00:50:52,393 --> 00:50:53,290
And I think

1406
00:50:53,900 --> 00:50:56,620
that has been something that

1407
00:50:57,802 --> 00:50:58,859
is still

1408
00:50:59,632 --> 00:51:01,144
something that I think is important that I

1409
00:51:01,144 --> 00:51:03,156
wanna scream from the rooftops to people

1410
00:51:03,929 --> 00:51:05,918
that failure is not to be feared and

1411
00:51:05,918 --> 00:51:08,088
failure is a step in the process, and,

1412
00:51:08,248 --> 00:51:10,186
you know, we just did our growth mindset

1413
00:51:10,485 --> 00:51:12,643
podcast, which is all about how you have

1414
00:51:12,643 --> 00:51:14,641
to view failure differently. And so I see

1415
00:51:14,641 --> 00:51:17,688
certain strands that keep coming through time and

1416
00:51:17,688 --> 00:51:19,122
time again. And it's just like it's a

1417
00:51:19,122 --> 00:51:21,375
reminder me that I'm still the same person

1418
00:51:21,751 --> 00:51:24,800
that I'm still developing being and growing and,

1419
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:27,699
you know, actually, Sonia, my friend Sonia

1420
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:30,800
texted me today, you know Sonia, And she

1421
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:32,480
said the for so this is someone who

1422
00:51:32,559 --> 00:51:33,855
I've been friends with first grade.

1423
00:51:35,855 --> 00:51:37,694
And she lives in another state, and she

1424
00:51:37,694 --> 00:51:38,894
texted me to say that she had been

1425
00:51:38,894 --> 00:51:40,414
listening to podcast, and I had mentioned her

1426
00:51:40,414 --> 00:51:42,014
on the podcast and some advice she had

1427
00:51:42,014 --> 00:51:43,469
given, and she said she's felt very good

1428
00:51:43,469 --> 00:51:45,630
about it. She listens every week, and she's

1429
00:51:45,630 --> 00:51:46,110
a doctor.

1430
00:51:46,910 --> 00:51:48,989
And she know that she listens to didn't

1431
00:51:48,989 --> 00:51:51,238
neither. I neither, but she it was nice

1432
00:51:51,238 --> 00:51:52,588
to hear and it was just a reminder

1433
00:51:52,588 --> 00:51:53,858
to me that again,

1434
00:51:54,890 --> 00:51:56,501
there's something so nice

1435
00:51:57,034 --> 00:51:57,431
about...

1436
00:51:58,398 --> 00:52:00,626
That feeling of connecting with others. So I

1437
00:52:00,626 --> 00:52:02,932
guess if anything, like, I just... I'm hoping

1438
00:52:02,932 --> 00:52:05,023
the podcast continues to create

1439
00:52:05,969 --> 00:52:07,635
connections. That's really my goal. I don't have

1440
00:52:07,635 --> 00:52:10,675
any sexy like, our new segment will be

1441
00:52:10,890 --> 00:52:13,271
5 paint colors that you should try this

1442
00:52:13,271 --> 00:52:15,928
week and then we'll have, you know, an

1443
00:52:15,983 --> 00:52:18,521
interview with famous artist you know, zones so

1444
00:52:18,521 --> 00:52:21,376
like, it's just... That's that's this podcast is

1445
00:52:21,376 --> 00:52:21,693
like a...

1446
00:52:22,584 --> 00:52:24,102
It's a scrappy, happy,

1447
00:52:24,501 --> 00:52:27,378
little side project that I enjoy doing and

1448
00:52:27,378 --> 00:52:29,535
that I hope other people enjoy too.

1449
00:52:30,268 --> 00:52:32,571
Right? What are... Do you have hopes for

1450
00:52:32,571 --> 00:52:34,478
the future of this podcast, the fame and

1451
00:52:34,557 --> 00:52:34,954
Fortune?

1452
00:52:36,940 --> 00:52:39,402
No. I'm expecting neither fin nor fortune.

1453
00:52:41,253 --> 00:52:42,611
But it's a... You know what it is?

1454
00:52:43,251 --> 00:52:44,390
It gives us

1455
00:52:44,768 --> 00:52:45,988
a little tiny

1456
00:52:46,766 --> 00:52:47,725
portion of time.

1457
00:52:48,298 --> 00:52:50,388
To just sit and chat, which

1458
00:52:51,954 --> 00:52:52,454
between

1459
00:52:52,907 --> 00:52:54,440
everybody's busy life and

1460
00:52:55,132 --> 00:52:57,854
kids and, you know, health and all these

1461
00:52:57,854 --> 00:52:58,252
things

1462
00:52:58,889 --> 00:52:59,389
Is

1463
00:53:00,083 --> 00:53:00,583
rare

1464
00:53:01,118 --> 00:53:03,586
to just allow ourselves to just sit and

1465
00:53:03,586 --> 00:53:03,746
check.

1466
00:53:04,478 --> 00:53:07,984
Yeah. I agree. I agree. Okay. So I'm

1467
00:53:07,984 --> 00:53:09,180
glad people got to know a little bit

1468
00:53:09,180 --> 00:53:10,853
about you. This was the most non threatening

1469
00:53:10,853 --> 00:53:12,782
way I could think of. Of interviewing you,

1470
00:53:12,942 --> 00:53:14,298
although I know you still thought of threatening,

1471
00:53:14,458 --> 00:53:15,256
but you did a good job.

1472
00:53:16,932 --> 00:53:18,390
Let's just close out

1473
00:53:18,927 --> 00:53:21,490
condescending much of only a little, only 1

1474
00:53:21,649 --> 00:53:22,047
I have to be.

1475
00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:24,432
But what I was gonna say is, why

1476
00:53:24,432 --> 00:53:26,101
don't we close out with,

1477
00:53:26,657 --> 00:53:28,963
what are a couple podcasts that you would

1478
00:53:28,963 --> 00:53:31,443
recommend to other people to listen to? They

1479
00:53:31,443 --> 00:53:32,875
do not have to be art related. But

1480
00:53:32,875 --> 00:53:33,908
what are what are the ones that you

1481
00:53:33,908 --> 00:53:35,021
listen to and you enjoy?

1482
00:53:36,373 --> 00:53:38,697
1 of them is is it called how

1483
00:53:38,857 --> 00:53:40,773
I made this. How I built this. With

1484
00:53:40,773 --> 00:53:42,549
guy built Yeah. Where

1485
00:53:44,045 --> 00:53:45,880
it started on Npr, but I don't know

1486
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:47,493
if it's still on Npr, but I know

1487
00:53:47,493 --> 00:53:49,570
the podcast is still going and some people

1488
00:53:49,570 --> 00:53:51,429
talking about how they built their businesses.

1489
00:53:52,048 --> 00:53:52,548
And

1490
00:53:53,246 --> 00:53:54,706
the surprising terms

1491
00:53:55,659 --> 00:53:57,417
that things took. And 1 of the things

1492
00:53:57,417 --> 00:54:00,633
that always comes across in every successful entrepreneurs

1493
00:54:00,853 --> 00:54:03,110
life is this thing about failure that

1494
00:54:03,583 --> 00:54:05,597
they come up against various

1495
00:54:05,973 --> 00:54:07,269
roadblocks and they

1496
00:54:07,646 --> 00:54:08,841
pivoted their business.

1497
00:54:10,528 --> 00:54:11,878
And actually actually, it might have become a

1498
00:54:11,878 --> 00:54:12,934
whole new business

1499
00:54:13,466 --> 00:54:16,007
because they... You don't... You can't succeed with

1500
00:54:16,007 --> 00:54:18,880
this mindset that you're gonna make it this

1501
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:22,291
1 thing no matter what. And I find

1502
00:54:22,291 --> 00:54:22,791
that

1503
00:54:23,956 --> 00:54:24,353
reassuring,

1504
00:54:25,067 --> 00:54:27,543
you know, to think about whenever I'm trying

1505
00:54:27,543 --> 00:54:28,338
to do something,

1506
00:54:28,814 --> 00:54:30,721
okay. If I come up against something that's

1507
00:54:30,721 --> 00:54:32,945
making it that impossible, can I turn this

1508
00:54:32,945 --> 00:54:34,932
into something good? That works for me?

1509
00:54:35,584 --> 00:54:37,581
Almost every single founder who's on that podcast,

1510
00:54:37,742 --> 00:54:39,659
always talks about it the millions of ways

1511
00:54:39,659 --> 00:54:41,417
they failed, and the millions of people who

1512
00:54:41,417 --> 00:54:42,296
told them they were crazy.

1513
00:54:42,855 --> 00:54:43,095
Right.

1514
00:54:43,826 --> 00:54:45,019
It's good to know. Right?

1515
00:54:45,655 --> 00:54:46,927
Any other recommendations?

1516
00:54:50,186 --> 00:54:50,504
I do...

1517
00:54:51,393 --> 00:54:53,064
I wasn't to a lot of sports podcasts,

1518
00:54:53,223 --> 00:54:55,530
which... There may be other sports people out

1519
00:54:55,530 --> 00:54:57,280
there when do you like. They'll have to

1520
00:54:57,280 --> 00:54:57,996
find their own.

1521
00:55:00,886 --> 00:55:03,942
And I all I also listen to

1522
00:55:06,093 --> 00:55:07,231
you turned me on...

1523
00:55:07,847 --> 00:55:08,804
Is it smart?

1524
00:55:09,203 --> 00:55:10,400
I mean, I love Smart,

1525
00:55:11,835 --> 00:55:12,654
which is

1526
00:55:13,111 --> 00:55:13,611
3

1527
00:55:15,438 --> 00:55:15,938
actors.

1528
00:55:17,422 --> 00:55:17,922
Basically

1529
00:55:19,090 --> 00:55:21,392
interviewing that people, but they're very...

1530
00:55:22,027 --> 00:55:24,113
It's an interesting thing Because on the 1

1531
00:55:24,113 --> 00:55:25,492
hand, they're very

1532
00:55:27,629 --> 00:55:29,067
knowledgeable in some areas,

1533
00:55:29,467 --> 00:55:31,519
they also interview people who think

1534
00:55:32,274 --> 00:55:32,774
are

1535
00:55:33,306 --> 00:55:34,204
connect in

1536
00:55:34,815 --> 00:55:36,801
areas that they don't really have knowledge and

1537
00:55:36,801 --> 00:55:39,207
they're as much in awe of these celebrities

1538
00:55:40,057 --> 00:55:40,851
as we are.

1539
00:55:41,900 --> 00:55:44,628
And there's also a good kind of

1540
00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:45,878
charming...

1541
00:55:49,395 --> 00:55:52,505
Charisma between the 3 hosts, which is again,

1542
00:55:52,664 --> 00:55:55,215
back to the thing about you being the

1543
00:55:55,215 --> 00:55:57,702
host and people tuning in. No matter what

1544
00:55:57,702 --> 00:55:58,261
the topic.

1545
00:55:59,058 --> 00:56:01,610
Gonna tanya this week, we're talking about mud.

1546
00:56:02,009 --> 00:56:03,844
And I think people would still listen.

1547
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:06,715
And so we're gonna do it next week.

1548
00:56:07,129 --> 00:56:08,007
Just to test it out.

1549
00:56:09,843 --> 00:56:10,742
I just think

1550
00:56:11,201 --> 00:56:12,339
the host is

1551
00:56:13,276 --> 00:56:14,016
the whole

1552
00:56:14,474 --> 00:56:15,272
ball of wax.

1553
00:56:15,911 --> 00:56:16,230
Mh.

1554
00:56:16,724 --> 00:56:18,322
You know, it's just like, I listen to

1555
00:56:18,322 --> 00:56:18,822
audiobooks.

1556
00:56:19,442 --> 00:56:21,380
And if I don't like

1557
00:56:21,999 --> 00:56:22,558
the reader.

1558
00:56:23,197 --> 00:56:25,115
Mh. I can't enjoy it no matter how

1559
00:56:25,115 --> 00:56:25,835
good the book is.

1560
00:56:26,649 --> 00:56:27,149
Because

1561
00:56:27,687 --> 00:56:30,883
the relationship between me, the listener and the

1562
00:56:30,883 --> 00:56:32,720
reader has to work for me.

1563
00:56:33,770 --> 00:56:33,929
Agreed.

1564
00:56:34,722 --> 00:56:34,961
Agreed.

1565
00:56:36,627 --> 00:56:37,897
I would say, I probably listen to, like,

1566
00:56:38,056 --> 00:56:39,587
10 or 12 podcasts

1567
00:56:40,357 --> 00:56:41,333
fairly regularly.

1568
00:56:42,119 --> 00:56:44,194
The ones that, like, I'm would...

1569
00:56:44,913 --> 00:56:46,988
That I think might be useful, let's say,

1570
00:56:47,148 --> 00:56:48,903
in the art category, I would say I

1571
00:56:48,903 --> 00:56:50,340
really like the week arch.

1572
00:56:50,993 --> 00:56:53,057
Which is a podcast out of the Uk.

1573
00:56:53,216 --> 00:56:54,804
And so it does focus more on the

1574
00:56:55,122 --> 00:56:56,019
Uk art

1575
00:56:56,472 --> 00:56:59,266
scene, but it is very global. It's out,

1576
00:56:59,425 --> 00:57:01,646
as an art advisory in the Uk, who

1577
00:57:01,646 --> 00:57:03,709
hosts it, and they give you all the

1578
00:57:03,709 --> 00:57:04,820
information about important exhibits,

1579
00:57:05,454 --> 00:57:06,962
acquisitions, things that have happened. They do,

1580
00:57:07,930 --> 00:57:09,519
interviews. They do... It's like a, you know,

1581
00:57:09,599 --> 00:57:11,927
a couple segments in a show. Very, very

1582
00:57:12,143 --> 00:57:14,289
interesting and thoughtful. So I like that and

1583
00:57:14,289 --> 00:57:15,958
a little bit of, you know, contemporary art

1584
00:57:15,958 --> 00:57:16,117
knowledge.

1585
00:57:16,768 --> 00:57:19,002
Global contemporary knowledge never heard anybody.

1586
00:57:20,438 --> 00:57:21,974
And then I

1587
00:57:23,150 --> 00:57:25,622
have been listening to a lot of morbid.

1588
00:57:26,914 --> 00:57:28,293
Which again is

1589
00:57:28,831 --> 00:57:31,329
if if you like true crime mystery,

1590
00:57:31,708 --> 00:57:33,785
then Morbid is good for you.

1591
00:57:35,628 --> 00:57:36,842
I also really

1592
00:57:37,533 --> 00:57:38,033
enjoy

1593
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:42,001
marketplace, which is a financial podcast from Npr

1594
00:57:42,215 --> 00:57:42,691
formulaic.

1595
00:57:43,183 --> 00:57:44,219
Yeah. They don't...

1596
00:57:44,856 --> 00:57:46,790
They neither dumb it down

1597
00:57:47,326 --> 00:57:49,477
nor do shop talk too much.

1598
00:57:50,209 --> 00:57:52,838
So I feel like I am being spoken

1599
00:57:52,838 --> 00:57:55,627
to in plain language. I understand the economics

1600
00:57:55,627 --> 00:57:58,512
that they're talking about. I get... Some human

1601
00:57:58,512 --> 00:58:00,187
interest stories along with it.

1602
00:58:01,862 --> 00:58:02,739
You know, I just...

1603
00:58:03,536 --> 00:58:05,770
I feel like it's it's gives me a

1604
00:58:05,770 --> 00:58:07,046
basic handle on, like,

1605
00:58:07,859 --> 00:58:09,614
what the fed is doing right now, which

1606
00:58:09,614 --> 00:58:10,969
is not a sentence I thought I would

1607
00:58:10,969 --> 00:58:12,804
ever say, but I'm in my forties and

1608
00:58:12,884 --> 00:58:14,559
I feel like that's a good sentence to

1609
00:58:14,559 --> 00:58:15,356
be able to say.

1610
00:58:18,084 --> 00:58:20,081
Let's see What else? 1 other podcast do

1611
00:58:20,161 --> 00:58:22,159
I really like right now that I'm super

1612
00:58:22,159 --> 00:58:23,837
listening to. Oh, you know what? I've been

1613
00:58:23,837 --> 00:58:25,835
binging a lot of pop culture happy hour.

1614
00:58:26,809 --> 00:58:28,510
Which is a daily podcast.

1615
00:58:28,969 --> 00:58:31,050
And what I like about it is, I

1616
00:58:31,050 --> 00:58:32,349
don't have to watch

1617
00:58:32,890 --> 00:58:33,390
anything,

1618
00:58:34,010 --> 00:58:35,565
but I know it, everything

1619
00:58:36,585 --> 00:58:37,644
about what

1620
00:58:38,105 --> 00:58:40,425
is happening. So even... So they do... Because

1621
00:58:40,425 --> 00:58:42,344
there's pop culture not just movies and. They

1622
00:58:42,344 --> 00:58:42,985
do movies,

1623
00:58:43,399 --> 00:58:43,797
Tv,

1624
00:58:44,434 --> 00:58:44,934
music,

1625
00:58:45,549 --> 00:58:47,540
books, like, if people are talking about it.

1626
00:58:47,699 --> 00:58:49,690
If it's in the cultural zeitgeist, they are

1627
00:58:49,690 --> 00:58:52,079
talking about it. And so I feel like

1628
00:58:52,335 --> 00:58:55,295
This obscure series on Netflix or the really

1629
00:58:55,295 --> 00:58:58,014
popular Star Wars, you know, series or whatever

1630
00:58:58,014 --> 00:58:59,855
it is. Like, I don't have to watch

1631
00:58:59,855 --> 00:59:01,783
it. I listen to it. I can have

1632
00:59:01,783 --> 00:59:04,253
a conversation with somebody about it later, and,

1633
00:59:04,332 --> 00:59:04,571
like,

1634
00:59:05,208 --> 00:59:05,607
I'm good.

1635
00:59:06,244 --> 00:59:06,744
So

1636
00:59:07,534 --> 00:59:10,501
That's of it again. Pop culture. Pop culture

1637
00:59:10,558 --> 00:59:11,354
happy hour.

1638
00:59:11,991 --> 00:59:13,981
And they have an ever rotating panel of

1639
00:59:13,981 --> 00:59:15,891
people. So there, like, 4 main hosts,

1640
00:59:16,448 --> 00:59:16,948
but

1641
00:59:17,419 --> 00:59:19,334
they're rarely the 4 of them together.

1642
00:59:20,211 --> 00:59:22,047
It's it's almost always, like, 1 or 2

1643
00:59:22,047 --> 00:59:23,722
of the hosts with other people. And, like,

1644
00:59:23,882 --> 00:59:25,891
they make an effort, to bring in, sort

1645
00:59:25,891 --> 00:59:26,291
of

1646
00:59:27,328 --> 00:59:29,721
demographic appropriate people. So, like, I listened to

1647
00:59:29,721 --> 00:59:31,578
1 today that was

1648
00:59:32,607 --> 00:59:33,981
talk about the new

1649
00:59:35,071 --> 00:59:37,614
this the new native movie that Lilly Glad

1650
00:59:37,614 --> 00:59:39,601
jones in, and so they had a panel

1651
00:59:39,601 --> 00:59:41,214
that was mostly native people

1652
00:59:41,684 --> 00:59:43,672
you know, there... If it's a lot next

1653
00:59:43,672 --> 00:59:45,025
situation, if it's a, you know what? Like,

1654
00:59:45,104 --> 00:59:47,729
they try, I think to generally have people

1655
00:59:47,729 --> 00:59:51,077
who can speak to whatever the cultural experience

1656
00:59:51,077 --> 00:59:52,585
might be that's going on with it, which

1657
00:59:52,585 --> 00:59:54,726
is also interesting because it'll be... You know,

1658
00:59:54,885 --> 00:59:56,684
there'll be somebody on the panel who speaks

1659
00:59:56,804 --> 00:59:58,816
Korean who says, like, oh, the Korean

1660
00:59:59,669 --> 01:00:01,579
and this was, like, really weird and not

1661
01:00:01,579 --> 01:00:03,489
the... You know what Mean? And somebody else

1662
01:00:03,489 --> 01:00:05,478
who doesn't and they can have a conversation

1663
01:00:05,478 --> 01:00:07,882
about that that. You know, so I enjoy

1664
01:00:07,882 --> 01:00:08,042
it.

1665
01:00:09,476 --> 01:00:10,295
Anyway, so

1666
01:00:10,751 --> 01:00:12,423
let us know what podcasts you're listening to.

1667
01:00:12,662 --> 01:00:14,273
I always find that Jay had love him

1668
01:00:14,273 --> 01:00:16,371
add more to my rotation, have a few

1669
01:00:17,390 --> 01:00:19,947
have some... Have fewer murder podcasts in my

1670
01:00:19,947 --> 01:00:21,305
mind and some more happy stuff.

1671
01:00:22,916 --> 01:00:24,591
In the meantime, if you wanna connect, you

1672
01:00:24,591 --> 01:00:26,984
can find me at julie balls dot com

1673
01:00:26,984 --> 01:00:29,318
or all over social media as at balls

1674
01:00:29,457 --> 01:00:32,184
designs. Mom keeps a lockdown and private it

1675
01:00:32,184 --> 01:00:33,143
so you can't find her.

1676
01:00:35,061 --> 01:00:36,420
I really hope that you'll sign up for

1677
01:00:36,420 --> 01:00:38,497
the free weekly newsletter. That's the best way

1678
01:00:38,497 --> 01:00:39,536
to make sure you keep up on the

1679
01:00:39,536 --> 01:00:41,389
latest news, and you can there's a big

1680
01:00:41,389 --> 01:00:43,227
button on the homepage of Julie balls dot

1681
01:00:43,227 --> 01:00:44,265
com where you can do that or you

1682
01:00:44,265 --> 01:00:45,384
can go to the show page for this

1683
01:00:45,384 --> 01:00:47,621
podcast to find the link. If you'd like

1684
01:00:47,621 --> 01:00:48,840
to help the show

1685
01:00:49,233 --> 01:00:51,302
you can leave a review. I saw today

1686
01:00:51,302 --> 01:00:53,553
that there are, like, 97

1687
01:00:54,008 --> 01:00:56,236
reviews or something on Apple Podcasts, which I

1688
01:00:56,236 --> 01:00:57,293
appreciate so

1689
01:00:57,748 --> 01:00:58,066
much.

1690
01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:01,039
It really helps other people find the show.

1691
01:01:01,200 --> 01:01:02,960
Like, that's the thing that when I'm saying

1692
01:01:02,960 --> 01:01:05,200
that I need to work on marketing for

1693
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:05,840
the podcast.

1694
01:01:06,414 --> 01:01:08,811
1 of the more than any market I

1695
01:01:08,811 --> 01:01:12,006
can do, you writing a review like, times

1696
01:01:12,006 --> 01:01:13,857
10, what I could do. So that would

1697
01:01:13,857 --> 01:01:15,213
be awesome if you'd be willing to do

1698
01:01:15,213 --> 01:01:17,686
that, mentioning us on social media, telling a

1699
01:01:17,686 --> 01:01:18,005
friend,

1700
01:01:18,563 --> 01:01:20,716
putting you know, giving a letter to a

1701
01:01:20,716 --> 01:01:23,005
snail to carry somewhere, all of those things

1702
01:01:23,283 --> 01:01:25,351
help other people find the show. So thank

1703
01:01:25,351 --> 01:01:28,932
you so much for listening and subscribing. We'll

1704
01:01:28,932 --> 01:01:31,811
see you the next time. The adventures art

1705
01:01:31,811 --> 01:01:32,311
podcast.

1706
01:01:37,140 --> 01:01:37,275
On