Hello,
and welcome to the Adventures and earning pod.
Cast where we analyze, explore and celebrate the
creative journey.
My name is Julie Fe ann Ba, and
I'm a working artist living outside of Boston.
And if you wanna develop a strong and
thriving art practice, I hope you'll check out
my art practice dot com. You can get
on the waitlist list, and be the first
to know when the doors open in August.
And for cycle 2, where we're gonna be
talking about iteration or working in a series.
So I'm excited about that. So mom is
in here today, but we do have a...
For fabulous guest, Angela.
There.
You know what? I just had it in
your head. This is the fear fair
thing, which is me talked about it. Now
it's in my head, and it's so sore
on around. No worries.
So, Angela, so excited that you could do
this. I wanna read a quick bio about
you, and then we'll chat a little bit.
From her home in Northern British Columbia, Canada
through her video lessons on her website and
Youtube for Created a community of watercolor lovers
that spans the globe. And in fact, this
isn't in your bio but I happened to
know. You just came back from Greece. Right?
Drake? Yep.
She wants every painter to know the freedom
of fearless self expression, and she has made
it her mission to share this empowering message
through lessons and heart prioritizing
watercolor
technique and loose intuitive painting.
And I believe your membership is called something
like heart or heart,
Yeah. Bartlett
Yeah. Part is Smart com. Yeah. There you
go. And more than anything, she demonstrates that
the most important thing you need to bring
to your r... Is you. So welcome, Angela.
Thank you.
So I quite love why you were saying
about iteration,
as your is your upcoming theme because that's
a lot of what we do as well.
Yeah.
Well, you know, let's just talk about iterations
were there anyway and just talk about it
Like, what what do you as an artist
and a teacher find useful
about that whole idea. Of working in a
series of trying something sort of multiple times
multiple ways.
I think
I think I'm not that you... I'm not
that unique and I'm not that original instinctively.
Right? So if I'm going to start painting
something,
I generally rely heavily on my reference photo.
It's very literal to what I see.
It's just, like you ask somebody, you know,
how do you just... Love, and they were
gonna start talking about the most common symbols
that we might use are most common ideas.
But when you spend a little more time,
you get to get a little deeper, you
get to edit out the cliche or the
non essential,
and maybe dig into,
what does this really mean to me? You
know, if I get beyond the the key
phrase or the... Yeah, the keywords or whatever
that people tend to commonly expect to hear?
Let's have a, you know, I I get
to have a deeper conversation. And
I love that. I love seeing what
when comes when you start scratching at an
idea and see what emerges.
Okay. Yeah. I think, like, your first idea
is not the best idea. And I'm actually
taking a piece of favor and writing down
what you just said about a deeper
Conversation because I just think that's such a
beautiful way of just describing what happens. It's
like,
that sort of,
quick 2 minute chat. You have with somebody
at the post office
conversation. Which is what you get to do
when you're spending, like, 6 hours in the
car with somebody, and that's all you're doing
is stocking.
Exactly. I was gonna say grocery store. So,
yeah, We're on the see same area go.
Yeah. Let's get deeper. I mean, here in
canada. We talk about the weather. It's the
first thing you... And I just... I don't
even wanna go there.
You know, let's...
Obviously, you can't have a heart to hurt
with everybody you meet, but it's really interesting
what happens when you take that little bit
of extra time
and and see what's there. And in art,
we get to do that with ourselves, and
then maybe share it with the world is
Yeah. Mh. Mh. I think that's so true
now. So you and I actually have a
kind of similar
similar, but different.
If that can be a thing sort of
trajectory background sort of in how we came
to what we're doing, Do you want to
tell people a little bit about your story.
Yeah. I love the fact that you and
I, like, I first heard of you because
I was involved in paper crafting when my
kids were little, And so I I think
your name popped up and... Some of the
paper crafting magazines that I was subscribed to.
And and for a while, I started painting
in watercolor when I was 18. And so
it making art
has always been something I kind of wanted
to do as a business,
but I never believe that I could really,
every artist that I know in Northern British
Columbia in my in my
circle,
at the time anyhow, not a single 1
was actually making a living as a full
time artist. It was a hobby. And so,
you know, to have a nice little side
income, maybe make a couple hundred dollars a
month, you know, that would that would be
a nice little pipe dream for me. And
so I pursued watercolor,
off and on.
And
then when my kids were a little, I
started doing paper crafting. And I did that
as a little side business for a while
and had people over and and started teaching
little groups of of friends
and then I... When I had... When I
wanted to decide, what industry do I kinda
throw myself at?
I realized,
I actually... Watercolors is something that I do
kind of in my own unique way? Why
would I not wanna niche down to that?
So that's kinda of when I... About 20
12, I think, was when I kinda started
to really drill down on watercolor and and
made that commitment to pursue
to identify myself, I think as a watercolor
artist and instructor and and pursue that that
kind of angle. So it's been... I haven't
looked back, been really
amazing how how I've been able to create
relationships and community,
and it's and find my voices and artist
and just continue to move in that direction.
Well, I love what you said,
about you have a unique way of doing
watercolor
and why wouldn't you, like, niche damage that
go after it because I I think it,
like,
I am always
screening for the roof rooftops that people that,
like, whatever makes you weird is also what
makes you awesome.
Whatever makes you different is, like, the key
to your success, and that people are always
trying to sort of homo homo.
Constantly, which I which I never understand because
any work you make that looks like someone
else is just a pale limitation
of someone else. Right? You always wanna make
work that looks like you And I know,
like, that you very specifically say that it's
important for you to help people sort of
bring themselves
to their art. And I'm wondering,
is that something that you just sort of
intrinsically
new. Is this something that you came to
after a while of teaching? Is this something
that was a path of self discovery? Like,
how did that become an important tenant for
you?
Yeah. Yeah. It is a really important tenant
for me, and I I was just, like,
patti myself on the back yesterday for the
fact that... I get to applaud myself for
committing to something even in the face of
rejection, even in the face of not knowing
where it's taking me.
You know, and you just keep committing to
that authenticity of your process, and that is
huge, but I didn't start there.
I started with the idea that if I
could just make a perfect painting, I would
feel fulfill as an artist, I would consider
myself successful.
I even remember bringing a painting very controlled,
giant orc painting
to a local gallery, And I'm showing the
the gallery owner my work.
And
and even in, like, in Northern Bc, you
don't just get to have an art gallery,
you if you're a private art at gallery,
you also are wearing other their hats, like,
framing and all the things.
We... You know, it's it's it's so hard
to make living as an artist here or
in an art field,
And, but I remember showing him my painting
and going. It's perfect, and he's like, well,
but that was my my thought is that
I don't see... You know, I what I've
done here is I... I've created something that
I don't have visible mistakes in. And so
I don't have to be embarrassed by
you know, my... I I get to hide
behind this painting and it's
controlled aspect.
And
and what I realized was Yeah. That's all
subjective.
I'm still gonna feel like I'm hiding because
paintings never go the way you think they're
going to go.
And so you're always in a problem solving
kind of cycle. And if perfection is well,
you know, I'm never gonna get there. And
so it took some rejection. It took apa
empathy
to help me to start to realize that,
oh, maybe I'm not needing to win approval.
By making that perfect painting.
And I took the model of other artists
who are courageous enough to trust their audience,
to just pour their love into what they
were doing and then leave it up to
others as to whether or not, you know,
it was
accepted or or not
And so brave artist than me have led
the way, And and I'm so thankful fly
stumbled across some of these artists. And and
saw in their work, the kind of freedom
that I wanted to have and didn't know
it. So last 1 of their favorite artists.
The 1 first 1 I think of is
Linda Camp. She's a Canadian watercolor artist, and
actually, she's doing more with, with acrylics now.
But she,
has a negative painting process.
So she's generally
painting around the object rather than... You know,
you're working light to dark, you're creating... Carving
out those shapes in the painting.
But what I saw in her work was
a willingness to kind of leave a lot
said.
And it it made me wanna paint with
that kind of freedom.
And then the other was Jean Haynes,
And I remember... I was just looking at
a painting on the wall, and it was
the first painting that I did after reading
Jean book atmospheric watercolors, and she...
That it was the text of the work
of the book as much as the images
that drew me because she was talking to
newer painters
about the fact that you get decide what
kind of painting you're gonna create. And you
get to be in control regardless of whether
or not you feel like you are, and
you get to pour your love to for
watercolor out into the paper. And she she
articulated that over and over again that she
just really,
approached her work with this deep compassion and
love. For her subject for her medium,
and
I want... I wanted to be able to
express that freely
instead of trying to hide behind all this
control.
Well, so I get your newsletter, which is
excellent. And you're a fantastic writer.
And
you actually recently wrote a newsletter that was
I thought very much about control.
And
I actually wrote down also something that you
had sent me where you were talking about
using watercolor and having to let go of
control or you said any original intention must
be released.
If the painting turns in a new direction,
and this brings me into a relationship and
intimacy with my chosen medium that is dangerously
vulnerable and continually new.
Yeah. Yeah.
I think I pulled that from the... I
I was working on a landscape book, and
I think that was actually part of that.
That script
which I have to rewrite the landscape because
my landscape process is changing again. But.
So it's still in manuscript stage, but That
is, I think for me,
actually, a huge part of my process is
that while I am painting,
I have to remind myself that I don't
get to be in control,
you know, Jean Han in her book talking
about you are in control. It is You
are the 1 making decisions. And so that
means you have to be the 1 to
make the decision. Am I gonna fight what's
happening on the painting? Or am I going
to somehow kind of align into it? And
I think that to me is that idea
of letting go of control and saying, okay,
I had this initial idea.
But what I'm seeing here is more important
to me than committing to whatever's locked to
my brain, which probably wasn't very well formed
to begin with.
And and I'm going to to I'd react
and respond to what's happening on the paper,
and that's the control my choosing
to let go of whatever I intended.
Because I see something else going on here.
And I actually will,
signal to myself that I'm not,
I don't have to dominate the painting,
often all have placed a bunch of, you
know, beautiful brush marks on my paper. And
they're really special to me because they look
so promising at the beginning of the painting.
And then I start trying to protect them
and work away from them, so I don't
mess them up And whenever I noticed myself
doing that, generally, I get my spray bottle
out, and I release those marks, and I
spritz them with some water and and let
go of them a little bit.
Because suddenly, you know, they are starting to
control the painting or starting to dominate. And
so there's a whole process there for me
of reminding myself. That it's not, you know...
I don't know.
The language we use around painting is so
difficult.
It's not me needing to...
Master
the painting so much as, you know, be
relational with it. And
I'm always trying to tune myself to. What's
my body language saying about my my control
issues.
You know, what... What's the language I'm using
as I talk to myself about the painting?
How do I kind of just
stay present.
And
yeah, stop trying to parent this painting, I
guess.
Yeah. It's really hard. I mean, I think
that
it's
having
freedom
when you're... Painting is something that strikes me
is quite often found in
complete amateur,
or children?
Yeah. Or
very experienced painters, but hard to find when
you're somewhere in the middle
you know, And I and I feel like
it's because when you sort of don't know
anything,
then there's is seen enormous freedom because you're
just... It's not playing. You're just, you're experimenting,
you're seeing what's gonna happen. And when you,
you know, know a lot, then you know
all the tricks like you were saying that
you have to like go, I have just
tell myself all the time, walk away, stop
controlling it, stop doing that, Like, you know
I mean?
And then I think when you're in the
middle somewhere where you're, like, trying to keep
your design principles in mind. To remember your
color wheel and figure out if you're doing
this the right way that, like, your brain
gets so into it. It's to so much
harder
at that point to, let, not possible, but
it's, like, you just have to push yourself
harder to do it.
Yeah. I agree. I think... I'm... I almost
think we need to schedule in time for
it.
Mh. If it because we do tend to
schedule a lot of time for skill development
as artists.
It's very, very easy to fix your mind
on, you know, I'm improving my brush handling.
I'm studying color theory. I'm studying design,
but,
I'm making time for play.
For experiments that don't seem to take me
anywhere. That's a lot harder to feel productive
with
but I think
I like to try to to warm up
when I come into the studio, and I
I do that,
1 way I do it is just by
really pacing myself before I ever pick up
a brush, and I ramble through the room,
and I move paintings around, and I kind
of... Observe past work, and I I get
really inefficient with starting,
try to tidy up a little bit and
see where that takes to me. And so
there's that beginning.
And it's kind of, like you're getting your
feet wet or, you know, getting used to
that cold water of, k. Now I have
to be creative.
And and then I also try to make
time to just mess around with something. So
maybe it's a painting that I know isn't
going anywhere, and I can poke at it.
And do something crazy
because it's it's not a it's not a
successful painting. Let's just take a risk.
Sometimes it's just let's watch color move on
a wet wash for a while,
and see if I can't trigger that part
of my brain that starts to get excited.
And
find that little that little hint of flow.
And if I can't find out then I
just pretend for a while.
Well, I think the fake till you make
it thing works for me all the time,
which is, like, you just sort of start
our moving and eventually you find yourself
dropping into it. You know? It's like,
your
your body picks up. I don't know if
it's an automatic or it's like, a learned
a learned behavior based on, like, past experience
or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. I don't
know what it is either,
it's been interesting because I was just in
Greece, and I was teaching and art and
travel workshops. So we... As a group, we're
traveling in different locations in Greece
and doing Plan air. And so you just...
I I didn't know where we were gonna
show up on a given day. And then
I just get to do a demo for
everyone. And, a lot of times, it starts
with that feeling of tension and stiffness and
the awareness that, you know, when we were
in Santa, we had a hundred people walk
past design demoing.
And,
So there's
learning how to tune all that out,
and then also seeing the painting kind of
often to start out with a little struggle.
All of that tension. And
as, you know, the the 1 thing that
I'm forced to do as a as an
instructor is keep going.
And it's amazing to me. I learned as
much through that
idea, just keep going and then all of
a sudden,
oh,
Wait a minute. Some... This little thing is
working, and maybe I can use more of
that over here.
That's just been power. Full. But in the
meantime, and my students don't know that I'm
dealing with all of these thoughts of, oh,
man, this isn't going well and how do
I salvage this somehow
And, I mean, sometimes I try to articulate
that because I think it's Right. It's an
important
conversation to have. But I think...
Even when the painting is going well, there's
a lot of that little voice kind of
cycling
and trying to shove it out of the
way. So the painting can continue
Yeah. It's... I think art as a performance
is so hard,
and it's... And I know that many times
that I'm doing a demo. I feel like
I
do something too early because I'm trying to
just get this thing finished make it look
good or I'm, you know, pulling out checks.
And so then it's it's not really alive
at that point. It's actually 1 of the
reasons that I love
online
teaching because that means that, like, I can
spend 3 hours in the studio
in a very natural version of my practice.
Shorten it to a fit 15 minute video
or pick the section that actually is helpful
to somebody instead of the part where I
d around. This fear this this this, you
know,
and I think that, like,
pardon me. For me, like, that has been
a great way to feel like I'm being
authentic in my process
and with everything else and yet give people
something that I'm also, like, proud of whereas
when you catch the line show, it's always
50 50,
whether I'm gonna be. Excited I did about
how that turns out.
Yep. Oh, yeah. I mean, half the time
when I'm doing a demo with a class,
you know, they'll walk away after the first
demo done, and all the second painting I'll
day was just like, Oh, man. That was
even better. It's like, come back for the
second 1.
Okay. But,
at the same time, I think,
that being forced as an instructor during a
demonstration
to keep persisting through a, I think we
do have the opportunity to teach so well.
This idea of iterating, even through 1 painting,
we can iterate a series, but we also
iterate in the moment on that single painting.
You know, okay. This is working.
Let's do it somewhere else. Or sometimes, this
is not working,
But if I do it again over here,
it's gonna look like I planned it. So
that's that's actually 1 of my favorite ways
to to solve the painting is. Take that
thing you kinda thought was ugly and make
it look intentional.
You know, I think there is, like,
there's an art in
I don't know how to say, hiding stuff
or, like, figuring out mistakes or there's just...
There's an art in...
In in learning about the process,
you know? It's like, we were talking about
skill building and how people are worried about
loading their brush and, you know, blah app.
But it's, like, there's a skill and play.
There's a skill in, you know, on, like,
letting yourself go in the process. There's a
skill in pushing through.
There's a skill in so many things that
I think people don't think of as
traditional, like, I'm working on an art skill,
but they really are important important skills.
I remember... So I have I have a
4 year old, and I remember reading this
article
about Blue, which we're very into at the
moment.
In which they were saying, like, 1 of
the things about Blue as a cartoon is
that it's helping
adults
understand how to play with their children.
And
I had a moment where I was, like,
adults need help,
understanding how to play with a child.
And then I would And then I realized
how many of my friends ask me, you
know, weird play questions that I always sort
of, like, didn't think a lot about. And
then I was like, oh, I'm the weirdo.
I... This is part of, like, Artist brain,
where because I don't to play with art
supplies. It's like, I also just understand how
to play with Legos or play man things
because I do it. It's a muscle
that I have developed and or haven't let
go of, childhood.
And that was such a
that was a big realization for me about
the fact that we often walked through the
world, like, not understanding that our
view of it is not the same as
other people's. Yep. You know? And that's is
that thing, which is how exciting for you
that you were able to figure out
that the... Your approach to watercolors is still
unique that that's your, you know, thing.
That not that. Yeah. Well, it's not even
that my approach to watercolor was unique. I
didn't have that much confidence, but it's just...
I didn't know anybody else who was a
watercolor
I have a whole bunch of friends who
are paper crafting. You know? I... Mh. And
we're working with things products other people had
designed. So here's something, I get to take
ownership of the entire kit in Cabo. Well,
that...
That's kind of freeing, kind of scary,
but also, there's a freedom in that.
You know, I think the thing that brings
that play out and... Because I had a
lot of fun with my kids,
they're... My my youngest just turned 18 last
week. So
I think I need to grieve of some
childhood
memories, but
this is... You know, this is his last
last last week of school.
And I remember I was just thinking about
how 1 year for their last week of
school. The last day of school, I took
them to 07:11, and we all bought our
height in licorice.
And, you know, it's, like the crazy mom
playful thing that maybe that's an Arts thing
to do. I don't know, but,
we had those kind of fun.
But
I think it's the what if factor
because as artists were continually asking what if,
that's imaginative, and that does translate into play.
So I think... Yeah. And what you're saying
makes a lot of sense. I think that's
fine.
Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know,
now you obviously are coming at
you know, teaching people and coaching people and
all that kind of stuff through this, your
heart,
you know,
point of view, which I think is very...
Well, I mean, I don't wanna put words
your mouth. Why don't you tell me
a little bit about your sort of the
that approach?
Yeah.
I I like calling it heart or heart
prioritizing
because that was not something that I
did or that I
thought about as being important when I was
learning to paint. It was, like I said,
figuring out my standard of excellence,
and
I think in
the art world,
it's very... That's a... Oh, it's also something
that's very difficult to quantify.
And so when you are,
submitting your art to
exhibitions or Jury shows,
the criteria they're using is not did the
artist prioritize their heart in this painting,
or mean, are their self expression, How does
the art is showing who they are.
Prioritize it's that's very rare to find.
And, yet, I think it's so...
I needed that.
I need... I needed that for myself.
It's very, very easy to find ourselves falling
into a... Fitting into a system in some
way. So,
you know, it's do what your boss needs
you to do at work, so you can
be an excellent employee and get that raise
or whatever.
Win approval
in
your
relationships,
you know, be the satisfactory partner and spouse,
and
you know, when I lose sight of my
relationship, and I focus on my role, the
relationship actually suffers.
And somehow I get trapped in that sometimes.
And
raising 3 kids for a very close in
age. It was very easy to get lost
in mom and lose sight of the the
play
and
trying to get the job done. And so
I had all of these things in my
life that that
demanded a level of excellence or performance for
me. And by doing that in my art,
you know, it wasn't good for me. It
wasn't what I actually needed.
I needed a place where I could create
at that safe space to just...
Who am I? How do I show up
in in this space in my art? And
when I learned how to do that and
began to learn how to do that?
I was able to show up as myself
in other spaces and suddenly realized, oh, this
is what I was missing?
And why would I want... Why would I
want others to miss out on on knowing
me because I was so busy trying to
be a good way, mother.
Partner,
you know, all of the things.
Community member.
So
I needed that safe space. And so Art
has been that for me. And I've actually
come to the place where I think in
my art,
what I like to do when I come
into studio is ask myself, What do I
need? What do I need to hear today?
How do I need to feel?
And
when I
really think about that, and I become that
person who listens to me because I think
we all want someone to do that for
us. You know, it's a really normal how
really are you
But yet, we don't do that to ourselves.
And so this is a place where I
get to teach myself. How I wanna be
treated.
And so it's it's a really important
relationship,
and
I come
out of a a student community, like I
grew up in in the church. And
and I think...
And I'm still I'm still involved in that
community
But I also see how we can very
quickly twist something into a system and then
lose sight up relationship and start to figure
out how do I fit into this system
and how do perform well in it. And
then the individual gets lost. And you know,
we don't do church well when we're doing
that and we don't do our... Well, we're...
When we're... When we're thinking that way out.
You know, we just... We we miss so
much. And so I get to create that
space in my heart, and that's really valuable.
For me.
I hope that. I can share that with
others too. Yeah.
Well, I think, you know, it always seems
to me at least from the outside
that you are definitely, like, encouraging people constantly
to
not
have that kind of tension
that art should be like a safe
space. Mh. You. Know.
And I think, like, I know that,
art has
done, you know, a lot of
stuff for me as well where, like, and
a lot of people where it definitely is
a safe place. It's a place you can
explore ideas as a place you can be
brave. It's definitely a place where
I was brave in arch before I was
able to be brave in my life and
yet. Yep. 1 follow of the other. As
soon as I started to be able to
break rules in art, I started to feel
like I could break some rules,
you know,
outside of that. I think, I definitely suffer
from kind of a good girl good syndrome
zoom. I'm gonna be good. And if I'm
just good, do all my good things, know,
then I'll be rewarded and you know, that,
of course, you want to be...
And I think if you been a good,
like, student
academically,
then you come at art from almost like
an academic point of view where you're trying
to d.
Okay. I can memorize the color wheel, and
then I can memorize the names of all
the tools, and then I can memorize, but
it's like, it doesn't quite
translate, like, your orc painting that you were
talking about
into,
something
exciting. I mean, I 1 of the things
that we're dealing with right now or dealing
with, like, it's a problem with of the
things that we're talking about right now
over in my art practice which is my
membership is that,
is the idea of like, Ka,
and which is the Japanese art of mend,
you know, with gold,
And I think that,
of, just like it's embracing
mistakes of sort of, you know,
not feeling the need
to constantly,
post something and point out to everybody like,
oh, I don't really like this, and this
is a problem. It's like, you would attack
it before anybody else could because you're so
scared,
that somebody's gonna attack it, but then you
basically do their job
for them. You know? I think it's I
think it's a really hard thing to get
over. So...
Yeah. I'm sure you see of about that.
Yeah. And I think 1 thing I
I need to come down even harder on,
I think is the way we use language
because I think that's a... Big part of
it. You know, We talk about mistakes. We
talk about... I'm just a... You know, our
people will post their work in the. I'm
just a beginner. I'm just
whatever.
And I... The other day... Not that long
ago, a few months ago, I realized I
was still saying I'm unjust. I'm just from
the north where we don't have these resources
that, you know, you have
in these communities with big networks of art
and so suddenly, I'm like, wait a sit.
I'm still dismissing myself.
And
and so it's it's being, kind of a
att to when that language kind of triggers
those kinds of things.
That's been a big part of it for
me and and hopefully,
when I talk about how we use language
kind how I how I talk about my
paintings as I'm painting them, how I describe
them to others,
maybe
you know, others can can start to go,
oh, yeah. I use that word, and and
maybe it's impacting how I approach my work.
And, you know, band perfect band, this is
a bad painting.
Because
generally the failed paintings, the ones I consider
failed
are teaching me more than all my successes
do where my successes are often they keep
me safe because I'm just gonna do the
same thing I've always done, and Mh. End
up with this nice safe results. So, yeah.
Let's let's think about how we use language,
to describe our way yeah. I just read
to creative act by Rick Rubin. I don't
know if you've read it yet. Just sitting
of myself that I need to just open
it up and actually read it know.
Well, it's 1 of those books that's good
to kinda, like, dip in and dip out
of. You know what I mean?
And you could honestly open it to any
page. And, like, read a page or 2
and then have something to think about for
a couple days. But he does talk sort
of exactly about that, which is if you
are still doing the same thing, you know,
kind of over and over,
to get to mediocre, like,
that's not great. You know, nobody is dreaming
of mediocre
like, you want to
try
new things and to get uncomfortable and to
do things in a way that you haven't
done them before. And, you know, I think
I think that's exciting, and that's interesting and,
you know, but it's also... And I... I
know you've used this word before, so I
know it's something that you think about, which
is it's vulnerable.
Mh.
Yeah. Yeah. And I have a and and
I struggle with the vulnerability.
It's very easy actually as an instructor.
I can come across with a lot of
on authenticity, but I'm still managing what I
share.
And, my husband and I last year, we
joined
a community group. And and we go to
these
get together, and I would... And on the
way home might be like, don't know if
I can go back. Like, I'm so embarrassed
what's the... That's something I said in conversation.
And my husband looked at me and he's
like,
when you say stupid things, it's you being
vulnerable. Like, you're... The real you is showing
up. You're not managing every word that comes
out of your mouth, and that's a good
thing. And he was kinda there to coach
me that, yeah, you're gonna feel uncomfortable because
you're being vulnerable in the way you haven't
before. You're building these relationships.
And you know, new people and get to
say the stupid things and hope they still,
you know, are interested in hanging out with
me. And we've built some really wonderful
relationships, but it's often driving home. I'm like,
oh, man.
I don't know if I can go back.
So learning how to be vulnerable, Yeah, It's
gonna be uncomfortable and probably continue to be.
It is and it's hard because, like, when
you're vulnerable and someone doesn't like you,
then they really don't like you, Right? And
that's hard to take. Whereas when you're not
really yourself, and they don't like you, You
can be, like, whatever, you know what I
mean, They don't... They're even really know me.
Right?
And so... And I think that's 1 of
the things that's so hard because our art
is it shouldn't be us, but it is
us. You know what I mean? What you
make is such a representation of who you
are, your perspective on the world your point
of view, like, what you're thinking about, your
hopes, your dreams, like, it just is. And
so when someone
rejects that, it can feel
very much like a rejection of you, especially
if you're being all the way open. On
the other hand, I have to say, like,
I think,
I kinda say great.
Like mean by that
is,
like, but
I don't think
that, for instance, you should have to chase
somebody to tell them why dating you is
a good idea.
Yep. Right? Like, either if they're like, oh,
yeah. And the same with the friendship. Like,
I don't think you have to list off
for somebody. These are my good qualities and
why I should be my friend. Like, either
they like you and they vibe with you
or they don't. And that's, like that's fine.
That's their choice. Yeah. Do it. And so
the same thing is true I think with
your art, which is, like, it's okay for
people not to like your art. Like, that's
normal. Yeah. If everybody likes your art is
probably very middle of the road.
You know? Don't... Yeah. Don't you think that,
like, when we're trying... So hard to make
art that kind of is approved by everyone.
Then it's more the rejection stings more because
you're like, I tried it's so hard to
please you. But for me, I'm learning that
I'm making art now to please myself.
I was teaching in Santa Fe this spring,
and III
don't paint people, and I don't paint urban
scenes, and I've been pushing myself a little
bit in that way. And so we're in
the San fe Plaza,
and I'm
drawing painting,
1 of the buildings there. And I had
a little line in the corner by the
building, and I'm like, that kinda it looks
like a pair of legs.
And so I
drew a person. I'm like, let's put a
person in there, and I drew... Like, it
was a stick figure with the potato body
and it made me so happy. I because
it was exactly the same way I would
have drawn children I was 2 years old.
And
so it just felt like a little joke
to myself that here. I put a person
in and it's a little stick figure with
the potato body, and I like him so
much. I'm gonna give him a friend, and
I'm gonna make them hold hands and now
I have a love story. And that was
the... I was so happy with that because
it was just so silly. It was my
story.
It was personal to me, and whether anybody
are... Liked it or not.
There was such a... You know, is such
a full circle moment and
and that permission to just have that little
bit of fun with the painting. I ended
up selling it at the workshop. So other
people did like it too, but I think
that's what came alive was that this is
relational. It's me talking to myself, and, oh,
this is just silly enough to work. And,
you know, that was just really special. And,
yeah,
it's...
And it it was so personal.
And yet somehow, that was what made the
connection happen. In between me and and, yeah,
other people kind of watching that demo and
Yeah. I don't know. It's pretty close to
like, the other side of white people. Right?
Right. I was gonna say speaking the fact
that you don't... Use and you don't do
urban and you don't do people. I know
that you said that,
in your bile that nature informs both your
subject in your process.
So are you a
Hike? Are you a, like, walk out, are
you a look her through the window? Like,
you know, what kind of what kind of
nature
fan are you? Yeah.
When I was 2 months old, I was
born in this area. My mom put me
in a backpack and they hike down to
the Peace River,
and I slept the whole way there and
back apparently. But my earliest memories are
being in the forest with family,
my grandma picked wild strawberries, we had a
little path that would go to their house.
And there was violence in the woods in
the spring. And so there was always that
sense of
walking in the forest and trying to find
stuff. Trying to find the wild strawberries or
whatever was bloom at the time. And now
we live on an acreage in Northern Bc,
and I have miles of trails that actually
connect to my backyard. So I do try
to hike, walk in the forest.
Couple times a week at least. And
yesterday, you know, we were wandering and out
of the corner on my eye. Saw something
white, and we went off the trail, my
dog and I.
And found some oyster mushrooms and the squirrels
had already been eating them, so I left
them for for the squirrels, but
there is that sense of, let's go ramble
around and keep our eyes peeled and see
what we see.
And, you know, every day is a little
different.
And you can kind of start to predict
the seasons based on, you know, the the
small bits of knowledge that accumulate.
And I like that. There's something very open
ended about it. And I think it is
mirrored in my art practice because I'll start
a painting and
kinda see where it goes and hope to
discover or notice something special or beautiful.
And, you know, maybe bring that to light,
maybe uncover it a little bit.
And so I think there is an ethic
there that it's very much mirrored in my
in my painting practice.
And I hope that regardless of subject because
when I travel, you know, I, I don't
always get to choose what what I'm looking
at and painting.
But I think always there's that idea of
what's
what's small enough to notice?
And and how do we linger there? Yeah.
I love that. I'm reading this step. What's
small enough
to notice. Oh like that down too.
Yeah. Well the reason I like that so
much is because I think that so often,
we think about more along the lines of
what's big enough to attract Know. Yeah. You
know what Mean. And it's like you're
And but what's small enough to attract my
nose is a wonderful way to think about
looking.
I... With my son, I... We go outside
a lot. I mean, I live in an
urban area. So Yeah. Our version of outdoors
to, like, houses sidewalk, whatever. But we've spend
a lot of times talking about, like, what
are you observe it? What are you seeing?
And like, you know, I'm always delighted when
he, you know, find some little thing that
you know, I didn't see or find some
little animal whatever it is. It it's it's
an exciting game, And I think it's a
wonderful way to walk through life, and it
goes back to that idea. I think we
were talking about earlier about
what is sort of an artist's mindset? Like,
what does that mean? And I think maybe
being really observe and looking for things. To
notice is part of that.
Yeah. I think there's a sense of,
get your head up, I had...
Someone I cared about who was struggling with
depression, and it was a very inward, like,
the head was down, and it was like,
maybe if you lifted your gaze a little
bit. There would be a little more freedom
there. And you know,
there's there's... That's a long conversation, but there
was that sense of how do I... Encourage
you to look
beyond
just the current situation. And
and I try to do that for myself
too. But
being looking for something small enough to notice
also is a way of if... I think
it's app of a life affirming because
we often feel pretty small and insignificant and,
you know, my little art practice,
of,
maybe isn't
you know, making a splash worldwide or maybe
I'm not getting in the shows I wanna
get into or selling the painting, paintings I
wanna sell, but maybe in this small place,
it's doing something really significant. And
I believe that, Well, I I think that
always,
your our practice is doing something very significant
for you. You know? And, like, that's enough.
Yep.
Exactly and
be enough. Yeah.
And I think that's that's the other thing
I think we have a tendency to do.
And I don't know if it's the social
media era, but
we all want to make our our struggle
whatever we're dealing with right now. We kinda
wanna make it productive. We wanna see it
produce something we wanna
have, you know, turn it into
a way to,
I don't know, get our wisdom devoted into
the world or whatever it is.
And
and we'd rather do that than actually kind
of sit with it,
and
there needs to be that place where. I'm
gonna sit with this
situation. I'm gonna
get quiet in my studio and and just
be in my situation. Rather than thinking that
I would immediately need to make this productive.
In some way.
It's so interesting because I think, like, this
to me is related out to, like, fast
fast in or, like, the way that we
can communicate so quickly. So it's like, you...
People know that you can text them, email
them call them, like, whatever. And it's, like,
it's
it doesn't give you the time to sort
of process to think about it, you know,
in the old in the olden days,
when I was a little girl, you were
to, like, you know, take the time. Write
the letter find the address walks in the
mailbox, like, you know what I mean? And
wanna give you some times you'd be like,
okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Let's relax. Yeah. I
really wanna, you know, do this. And and
I think that there so many things that
I love about modern
society, but are there so many times when
I'm like, I do think we have lost
the ability to sit in things. I mean,
this is also an iteration
thing too, which is
as an artist you sometimes need to sit
it to have that deeper conversation. You sometimes
need to just like
dwell
with an idea, tang through something that complicated,
know what I mean to try to get
to something good. And you you probably have
to generate a lot of crap,
you know, Know, to get to something
that again is really good, But there's a
very,
1 of the performative things about social media
or, and having a newsletter and doing this
And all that kind of stuff is that
you kind of have to be continually producing
something
that is at least mediocre
because as much as people say they want
to see the failures and they wanna see
the bad things, They don't really wanna see
it a lot.
They want... In order for them to trust
you and to feel. They wanna see a
lot of success. Yeah. They wanna see that
you've
overcome all the things. Yeah. Yes. So that's
interesting.
I have noticed that, you know, I get
emails. I get a lot of emails, and
that's 1 thing I've... Encourage. I have I
have an assistant to kind of filter through
it because I I will get sucked into
trying to reply to everything, But that was
1 thing we talked about is that sometimes
the easiest thing in the world is to
send that email and say, So how do
you do such and such? How what, you
know, I wanna get started with doing this
thing that I see you doing? And so
can you get me started? And a lot
of times it's like, actually, a Google search
would advance through that question?
A little bit of research, and that's not
my job to do that for you, so
I've actually really pulled back from... I've... Because
I want people to do the work. I
want them to know how it's feels to
to have that light bulb moment to see
what it produces for them. That's
been such a rewarding thing for me. I
wouldn't want to rob somebody of that because,
you know, they're gonna...
You know, I I love sharing what I
know. But at the same time, there's that
idea of you...
Where is your... How are you committing to
the to the path you're choosing?
Right. Well, it's also the old. I am
a great believer, and this is part of
my teaching philosophy v too in that old
adage, if you give a man sheets for
a day. If you teach them man sheets,
for a lifetime. Right? And so I am
very guilty of when students ask me or
even when my child asked me, frankly, a
question of parenting right back. Well, what do
you think?
What happened when you tried it. Like, you
know, all those kinds of things because I
do think that as frustrating
as it can be because we want answers,
and I get guilty of less too, you
know, I've screamed at my computer more than
once? Well, I long don't you just tell
me the answer of this.
But it's like you
too the discovery, the path of discovery helps
you so much
in really understanding concepts, in really understanding ideas
and also in finding your own way into
it.
Exactly. Yeah.
Yeah.
And I've I've experienced that. For years, I
would read
artist interviews, and they would say in order
to be a great artist, you need to
do section such. And to me it felt
like gate keeping because I'm like well, I
don't know how to do that.
But I kept painting, and in the process,
I realized, oh, what they were articulating,
is actually something that's inevitably gonna happen when
you make that commitment to make your art.
It's... You inevitably learn how to
draw, but you learn how to do it
your way.
And I learned to draw, like a painter
would draw, not like a pencil artist, which
is what I would here when they would
say you need to know how to draw.
And so, you know, learning
kind of
kind of ignoring the advice
and yet still continuing to do the art,
was was a way of learning that for
me. And
so that was So it's interesting because that
piece of advice
sounds helpful,
and yet, I had to learn it for
myself,
and I would... And I heard it wrong
for all those years. So... Yeah. It's kinda
interesting.
That is interesting.
I think there's probably advice all the time
that I get that I'm mis hearing And
that later I'm, like, 000,
okay. Yeah. I guess I feel like I
was here back words. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Get. I need to get out
of my own way. That's my... I I'd...
Should get a t shirt that just says
that. I need to have of my own
way.
So before we wrap up, I just wanted
to say, 1 of the things I like
that you said
in... I... I, when I was asking you
some, you know, pre interview questions here. As
you said, art offers me a space to
create a world that is only limited
by my
imagination.
And since you do create work so closely
tied to nature and you are, so interested
understood in nature, I'm,
interested in just hearing a little bit about,
you know, how closely do you try to
huge to what you see versus what you're
sort of dreaming of?
Yeah. Yeah. I think
I think I think of it like,
like, when you're dreaming
because when we're dreaming nothing's flushed out. You
know, we know that we were in a
in this place, so these people were there
and yet, somehow they had someone else's face
or, you know, everything's kind of mashed together.
And so there's not that a bill. It's
it's kind of a ep, and it's kind
of poetic.
And so I like to think about
I tend to be very literal in my
first iterations. And so...
And there's a place for that, You know,
my plan air practice is pretty literal.
And
and yet, there comes up a time when
it's, like,
in this process
of painting the same subject over and over
again and yet letting go of it a
little bit each time. There's a part where
you kind of get to the poetry of
the subject. And I'd like to think the
that's what I'm attempting to do is find
a way of capturing
share... Or not even capturing because I don't
like that word capturing. But sharing,
expressing my love for,
my subject,
that moment of fascination where time fell away,
I think when you're
when your president and beauty,
you kind of lose... It it kind of
lives outside of time.
And
so I... But I get to try to
talk about those things without words,
and
And I and I never know how well
I'm doing it. You know, that's... I I
hopefully I'd hit something that resonates for me.
And what other c, you know, if that's
kind of on them. And so,
in fact, there's kind of a 3 phase
process behind my head right now here in
the studio,
on this side, we've got something from a
few years ago, and it's letting go of
a lot of detail to Paint Mountain forest
team. And then in the middle,
there's another mountain, and the forest is kinda
disappeared, and they're on the far side, it's,
you know, it's it's monochromatic.
It's it's definitely a landscape? But we don't
know where it is? And and just did
I capture a remove? Did I share
a little bit of a little bit of
my love, and and really, that's
all I can really say.
Yeah. And and there's letting go of the
need for it to match anything,
to match my idea, to match my reference
photo,
or even to call the same story to
someone else's mind.
And so there's a lot of unknowns. And
I think we end up as as artists,
the deeper we get into this,
giant massive making art,
the more we just are living with the
whole bunch of questions.
And
and realizing just how how wonderful it is
to be able to ask them and kind
of play with different ideas and just see
see what what ends up happening.
I don't know.
Well, Angela, this has been such a wonderful
conversation. You're so intelligent and well spoken, and
I know you're a great teacher as well.
If people are interested in taking in class
with you or phone you online or signing
up for your fantastic newsletter, where can they
do that?
Fastest easiest way it's just to head over
to Angela fair dot com. I do have
a monthly
membership, which is kind of a, look over
my shoulder into my studio practice
and my process. So, it's it's kind of
a mentorship as as much as we can
do that online. In just opening up my
practices
as much as I can to kind of
dig into how how this all works, And
let's see if we can figure it So
that's all yeah, try it down at angela
fair dot com.
Awesome.
Well, if you wanna connect with me, you
can find me at julie vol dot com
or all over social media as at or
designs. And I hope you'll sign up for
my weekly newsletter at that's the best way
to keep make sure you keep up on
latest news. There's a big button on the
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find the link. As always, if you'd like
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All of those things help other people find
the show. So thanks so much for listening
and subscribing, and thank you, Angela for your
time and your wisdom. I appreciate it. Well,
thank you, Julie. This was such a fun
conversation. Thank you.
And we'll see you the next time on
the Adventures art podcast.