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Hi, beauties.

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Before we get into today's show,
I wanted to take a minute because

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for those of you
who've been listening for a while,

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first of all, thank you so much.

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But you will notice a small change
in the top of the show today.

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And that's
because when we started the show in 2018,

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we really wanted a place where we could
talk honestly and candidly about beauty

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without having brands pay us to say, well,
what they wanted us to say.

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And when we started, we were having fun.

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It was a passion project

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and we came up with this tagline,
The Real Truth about the Fake Shit.

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We were talking about plastic surgery.
It was a lot of fun.

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But since then, and almost over 200
episodes later, we realized that

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we're talking about real stuff and stuff
that's really important.

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And so we are tweaking our tagline
a little bit

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to be always
reaching for truth and beauty.

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Why is that important?

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Because the brands are still not paying us
to be on the show and that allows us

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to have these candid conversations
with experts, with founders

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about everything from products
to technologies and everything in between.

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And I hope that you will appreciate this
new change.

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I think it's just a small tweak
in our evolution of bringing you content

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that matters

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because at the end of the day,
we want you to be informed

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so you can make the best decisions
for yourself.

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And I couldn't kick off this new branding
them with a better, more exciting guest.

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We are talking today to the founder
of Citrus Labs about clinical testing,

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how we can understand that,
how we can see through the claims.

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And I think you're going to love it.

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So thank you so much for your continued
support.

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Enjoy the show.

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This is the Art Beauty podcast,
where we are always reaching for

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truth in beauty.

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Now remember,
this is an UNsponsored podcast,

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which means the brands who are on here
are not paying to be on here,

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which allows us to have honest
and candid conversations

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because at the end of the day,
we believe you deserve to be informed

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so you can make the best choice
for yourself.

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I'm Amber, and today
my fabulous co-host is Suzanne

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Mitschke,
she is the CEO and founder of Citrus Labs.

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And I could not imagine
having a better show

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to kick off our new branding
with than with you.

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Suzanne, thank you so much for being here.

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Thank you so much for having me.

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I'm really excited.

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So, you know, part of this,

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you know, ideas, when we started
this podcast, we wanted a space

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where we could talk candidly
and honestly with brands like yourselves,

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you know, about the products.

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But one of the things
that is so fascinating why I'm so excited

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today is because so many of us
who have bought a product, who've done any

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even like the most basic
research on a product, have seen the term

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clinically proven,
clinically tested clinical trials.

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You know, and in the spirit of education,
I'm so excited to have you on

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because Citrus Labs is where
a lot of these clinical studies happen.

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Correct. For beauty.
Yeah, that is correct.

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So basically what we do, what Citrus Labs
does as we conduct clinical studies

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on behalf of consumer
brands like skincare,

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we also do
supplements, superfoods, devices, and then

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we help these brands to actually make
research backed product claims.

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And the prime
example of our work is a claim like 75%

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reduction in the appearance of fine lines
and wrinkles.

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Right?
And so we've all heard these before.

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And what I'm hoping

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today is for us to talk a little bit
about what that process is with you

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so that we know how to sort of interpolate

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that data, how we know how to make sure
that that's data that we want to follow.

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Also to talk about the difference
between things like clinical perception

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studies and then also like clinical
research studies and kind of

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understand a little bit more of the claim.

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So let's get right into it.

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When a company approaches you
like a skincare company,

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what goes into doing a clinical study?

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What goes into doing this
clinical research and making those claims?

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Yeah.

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So if you specifically
look at the cosmetics, the beauty space,

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beauty has conducted clinicals
since forever.

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And typically what you need to launch
a brand is obviously a product,

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you need a website,
you need to pick it Instagram account

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and typically either a clinical trial

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or a consumer perception study
to then substantiate product claims.

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And at this point, most of these brands

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have clinicals attached to them,

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which is, as I mentioned,
either perception

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or an actual clinical trial
in most cases for cosmetics.

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So it is a perception study
and I'm happy to talk a little bit more

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what the difference is, because I guess
what you're probably interested in.

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Well.

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Well,
you know, before we get into the two types

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of studies, you know, I know that,
you know, beauty, cosmetic, skincare,

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it's it's
a highly sort of unregulated industry.

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However,

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from what I understand

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now, I used to work with Murad,
and I know that working with QVC, QVC

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takes its clinicals
and making those claims

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very seriously,
and especially when it comes to marketing,

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if you're going to make a claim,
there has to be

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it has to be substantiated. Right?

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So where. Yeah. Okay.

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So that these clinical
you know, when you're when you're talking

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about clinicals and we're going to talk
about the difference between sort of a

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a clinical study and a perception study.

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But they have to
they have to have actual like

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truth and science
and fact behind them, Correct.

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They should have, yes.

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Okay. Okay.

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But they don't have to
as a regulation on that there.

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So there is a new regulation called MACRA.

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I think it stands for the Modernization
of Cosmetics Regulation Act.

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And it's actually the first change
in regulation

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of these personal care products
since I think it's 1938.

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So since a very long time.

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And now we are seeing
in this new regulation

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actually mandatory safety substantiation.

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But at the same time, the FTC

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actually

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also submitted new regulation around
how to actually substantiate claims.

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So that is very interesting now.

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So you actually have to have four claims

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substantiate,
you have to have clinical backing.

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But then obviously the claims you see,

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we don't know if you know,

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in most cases
we don't know who conducted the study.

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We don't know how big the sample size was,

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and we don't know if they might have done
some statistical

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calculations in the background,
maybe left out some groups.

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So this is all, you know, not regulated.

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Okay.

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So let's get into,
you know, let's start at the beginning,

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because I I'm assuming that everybody else
is is fascinated with this as I am.

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So when it comes to, you know, clinicals,

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what are the different types of studies
that brands can be doing right now?

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Yeah.

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So clinical trials in cosmetics,

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research studies that evaluate

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if a product works and basically does
what it's supposed to do.

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For example, I have four months
to research the goal of a moisturizer.

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It's to hydrate and maybe I want to make

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some claims around obviously hydration,

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maybe even fine
lines, wrinkles, skin texture, glow.

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So the clinical study then would assess,

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obviously, first and foremost hydration
and then also would look

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how fine lines and wrinkles

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develop, how my skin texture changes.

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And also if I get a nice glow now,

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you know, clinical trials
and clinical trials,

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especially in skin care,
I see that clinical trials and consumer

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perception studies are actually often
used interchangeably.

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But you know, as we already established,
there is a huge difference.

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Clinical trials typically involve
objective data measurement.

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For example, they involve a skin

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analyzer that objectively measures

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things like wrinkles,
fine lines, hyperpigmentation,

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sensitive skin parts

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seen in rosacea, for example,
usually damage brown spots.

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Skin monster

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Objective data

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measurement can also happen
through instruments

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like a corneal reader,
a tattoo imager or to a meter.

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And then there's also expert
skin grading done

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by a dermatologist,
which also is objective data measurement.

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And then typically clinical trials
involve statistical data analysis,

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and then you can make claims
like significantly improve skin hydration.

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Right.

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And also, if you test if you test
to protect against a placebo, you can also

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see increases hydration

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by X percent,
significantly greater than a placebo.

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But testing against
the placebo is very rare.

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Unfortunately, in cosmetics.

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And then we have perception
studies, perception

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studies as more subjective.

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They only involve questionnaires

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and frankly, there can also be
a huge difference in these questionnaires.

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For example, a higher standard is

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when you have a questionnaire
that uses the like hard scale from 1 to 5

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and you

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have, for example, the question
how would you rate your dark

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circles under eyes and then go number one,
not noticeable.

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Number two, barely noticeable.

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Number three, mild, number four, moderate.

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And then number five, severe.

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Then the same question, can
we ask in a different way?

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You can ask, do you agree or disagree
that your dark circles under eye improves

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and then you go 1 to 5 from strongly agree
to strongly disagree?

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And, you know,
basically that gives you better change

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a better chance to have like a claim
like X consent decree that they're under I

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dark circles improved
and then you have actually

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a third option for question
you can do like

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do you agree that your dark circles
under your eyes improved compared to

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when you first started using the product
and then you just have yes or no?

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Right. And

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typically the best questions

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that I always have to smile on
is when they are around hydration, right?

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When you have a super
hydrating moisturizer and then ask like,

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do you agree that your skin gets
more hydrated after using that product?

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Of course any person would say yes.

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And then you have these claims that stayed
like 100% of participants agree.

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You know, you bring up a good point.

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Is there any way So just
I want to make sure that I'm clear.

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So a clinical trial is something that is
generally more scientifically backed

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about collective data
using scientific measurements.

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I know we had Dr. Murad on the show once.

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He talked about a product
that he was doing

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that actually did skin puncture
like a skin punch stance,

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and they were looking at this
under a microscope.

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So so those are really scientific claims

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versus the consumer perception,
which is not that they're not important,

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but then have maybe

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a greater degree of variability.

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Is there any way for us to be able to read

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into those and decipher them?

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Yeah.

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So, you know, first of all, when something

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sounds too
good to be true, it typically is.

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But generally
when when I see something that states

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100% sets and 100%

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accrete to me,
this is a super, super red flag.

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And of course, you know, their products
achieve all of that in 2 to 4 weeks.

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To me, I highly doubt that,
especially as our skin typically

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needs about 30 days to show any results
because that is how long,

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you know, skin cells turn over.

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The exception isn't moisturizer
you pretty much told me

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to be if it
if it helps, if it works or not. But

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interestingly, for

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for me and also my work
is that most of our clients actually met

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when they don't get results, the high 92
or even 100% claims.

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But then when you look at a company
like Skinceuticals,

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for example,
they are like the Holy Grail, right?

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The super science forward brand, their

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C Ferulic,
which I think is their bestseller,

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that vitamin C serum
has results in the 20 to 30%.

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And that is something
that I can get behind.

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Like 30 something
percent said that their firm is increased,

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30% reduction
in the appearance of wrinkles.

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These are like results that are actually
coming from clinical studies

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and that's great.

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And they like a 30% decrease in fine
lines.

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Wrinkles is actually really,
really meaningful.

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Yeah.

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Now I go, so it's funny, I get to go.

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In my career, I've gotten to go
to a lot of different launch events.

242
00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:38,160
I see a lot of the time with,
you know, these noninvasive procedures.

243
00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:42,680
And sometimes I'm they're looking at their
before and afters and I'm like, well,

244
00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:46,920
okay, you know, her neck in one picture
it was like this.

245
00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:49,800
And then the other one, yes, of course,
it looks a lot better.

246
00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:52,800
Or, you know, you can tell like
sometimes they're hunched over, so her

247
00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:56,080
stomach looks a little more flabby
and then she's standing up straight.

248
00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:58,080
You know,
I think braids have gotten better at this.

249
00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:01,240
I'm talking about like, you know, 15 years
ago, I used to go and be like, really?

250
00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:02,920
Are you trying to pull that over on us?

251
00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:07,800
But, you know, nowadays
I will see a lot of these studies.

252
00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:13,040
And then sometimes, you know, looking
at the sample size, that's important to.

253
00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:14,800
Right,
because sometimes they'll see something.

254
00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:19,800
And it's like in a study of 20 people,
100% said this, but it's

255
00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:22,720
20 people.

256
00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:25,680
Or is that kind of a normal

257
00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:26,320
sample size?

258
00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:30,840
I think 10 to 20 people is quite low,
obviously.

259
00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:34,680
And so each study
should have a power calculation

260
00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:40,640
and, you know,
to basically get to choose the sample size

261
00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:45,000
that you can make
statistically significant claims.

262
00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,520
But training people seems fairly low.

263
00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:52,760
But typically that is again,
what we see specifically

264
00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:57,880
in perception studies and also it's funny
that you mentioned before

265
00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:00,960
and after photos, often
when we work with brands,

266
00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:05,640
they are coming to us with examples
from other brands and they tell us,

267
00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:09,800
I want professional before and afters
and I want them to look like this.

268
00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:13,840
And then we look at the photos
and they clearly show a model

269
00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:19,720
and they were clearly taken in a studio
and the results are obviously amazing.

270
00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:23,480
It's like, you know,
a person has severe acne and then,

271
00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:27,400
you know, 12 weeks later,
all of their pitfalls are gone.

272
00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:28,680
Right.

273
00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:32,880
And, you know, it
basically gets sometimes to a point where

274
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:38,000
I think the the ethics of running
an objective clinical trial

275
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:42,320
or even a fairly objective
perception study are a little stretched.

276
00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:43,920
Gosh.

277
00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:46,360
So, I mean,
is there anything that a consumer can do?

278
00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:49,560
You know, you we hear these terms
and of course, they sound really powerful.

279
00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:51,960
But like, you know,
I know you said if it you know,

280
00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,560
maybe if it sounds too good to be true,
it might just be.

281
00:15:55,840 --> 00:16:01,080
Is there anything else
that we can be looking for?

282
00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:06,120
So we try to push our clients
to be more transparent.

283
00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:10,800
And I think the more transparent
the brands are, the better they are,

284
00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:14,720
you know, because looking at looking
at study results, right.

285
00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:17,280
Most of them
put something on their website like,

286
00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:21,800
you know, based on a third party
clinical trial.

287
00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:24,280
But again,
who conducted this clinical trial?

288
00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:24,640
Right.

289
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:28,080
Is it is it like, well,
the qualified people

290
00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:32,640
that were actually third party or was it
your cousin was a dermatologist

291
00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:37,480
or was it a marketing agency
that, you know, self

292
00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:41,160
perception studies and markets
them as clinical trials?

293
00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:44,280
So we are really pushing our clients

294
00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:48,600
to actually tell who the studying
in this case study results.

295
00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:54,080
And then also if it was a clinical study
link to the clinicaltrials.gov page,

296
00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:59,520
which is basically a history where all
clinical trials are registered and then

297
00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:04,000
anybody can read about the methodologies,
right?

298
00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:07,080
Methodologies meaning, you know,
what kind of assessment was used?

299
00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:08,400
Was it a skin analyzer?

300
00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:09,400
Was it an instrument?

301
00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:10,440
Was it

302
00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:14,400
expert
skin creating done by a dermatologist?

303
00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,720
And also talking a little bit about,
you know, questionnaires,

304
00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:23,080
because all studies involve questionnaires
even when they are clinical trials

305
00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:26,560
that also include objective data,
they also include questionnaires.

306
00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:29,200
You know, how are these questionnaires
structured, for example?

307
00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:33,440
And that's, you know, gives you
as a consumer more transparency

308
00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:37,920
and also gives you a chance
to interpret these results.

309
00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:41,640
So now does every clinical trial

310
00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:45,080
have to be registered
on clinicaltrials.gov?

311
00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:51,080
Unfortunately,
there is no law, no regulation.

312
00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:54,800
That's, you know, basically
because it's cosmetics, Right.

313
00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:58,240
Cosmetics don't need to don't
need to get registered.

314
00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:01,280
But for me personally,
I think it's best practice.

315
00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:05,400
We talked
previously a little bit about MACRA right.

316
00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:09,320
That that new regulation that came out
and I think it's a step

317
00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:13,360
in the right direction
but especially for, you know,

318
00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:17,520
consumers transparency,
making misleading false claims.

319
00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:21,360
I think they really need to,
you know, push it

320
00:18:21,360 --> 00:18:24,960
more towards
we have the good manufacturing practices.

321
00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:28,520
Maybe we also need
good clinical trial practices.

322
00:18:29,120 --> 00:18:29,560
Yeah.

323
00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,920
You know, it's funny, too,
because I know when it comes

324
00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:36,240
to claims legally like brands,
you said at the beginning,

325
00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:39,840
this can improve the appearance

326
00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:42,760
of longer fuller lashes.

327
00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:46,000
They're not saying it's
going to give you longer fuller lashes

328
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:48,480
because they can't necessarily
guarantee that. Right.

329
00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:49,640
But they also.

330
00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,080
Are not allowed to do that
because that's a claim.

331
00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:53,760
That's a drug claim.

332
00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:54,680
Got it. Okay.

333
00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:58,480
So so what
what what is the drug claim entitled?

334
00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:01,160
What does that for example?

335
00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:01,640
Oh, yeah.

336
00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:03,320
So, for example, acne.

337
00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:04,920
Acne is a skin condition.

338
00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,080
Acne is the health condition.

339
00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:11,280
And you cannot say if your cosmetic
you cannot say that

340
00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,360
this product reduces acne.

341
00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:19,760
That would be that would be a health claim
and that is flagged by the FDA

342
00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,960
because now you are basically falling
under FDA regulation.

343
00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:27,080
But you can say it reduces the appearance

344
00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:30,600
of ethylene. Wow.

345
00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:34,760
And so I guess because I see that in a lot
of like hair growth serums or like,

346
00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:40,480
Oh, yes, because I guess hair
loss would be a medical condition.

347
00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:41,280
Alopecia.

348
00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:44,280
It is a medical condition.

349
00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:46,560
But I can make those claims.

350
00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:49,920
They don't look at aging and wrinkles
as a medical condition.

351
00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:54,680
No, that is not a medical that is just,
you know, our body doing start it.

352
00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:56,880
Got it.

353
00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:59,600
So, you know, I mean, I feel like
this is so fascinating.

354
00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:01,840
Do you have any thoughts?

355
00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:03,360
So some

356
00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:05,880
cosmetic brands

357
00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:09,040
are actually owned by medical companies.

358
00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:12,080
So I know, you know, Skin
Medica is one of them.

359
00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:12,880
And I know that they have

360
00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:16,080
to be very careful about the claims
that they're making because they,

361
00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:20,200
as a brand, do fall under

362
00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:22,320
other regulations of the FDA,

363
00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:25,680
that they fall under.

364
00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:26,520
Yeah.

365
00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:29,360
You know, I think it really comes down to

366
00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:33,160
so we actually work with with a law group

367
00:20:33,360 --> 00:20:37,560
that is only focusing on these claims

368
00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:41,600
for cosmetic companies
and also supplement companies.

369
00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:44,640
And they always tell everybody

370
00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:48,240
that it always comes down
to the risk profile of a brand.

371
00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:52,160
So I'm friends,
you know, don't worry about the FDA

372
00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:56,280
sending them a warning letter
because they can make that fine.

373
00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:57,440
Right.

374
00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:00,120
But once they are penalized,
they have to pay a fine

375
00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:04,680
and then, you know, they can make that
with that claim in like a week or two.

376
00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:06,440
And it's fun, right?

377
00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:10,160
But other brands are a little bit
more conservative when it comes

378
00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:11,880
to how they are making claims.

379
00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:14,440
And I think most of small brands
are conservative.

380
00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:15,640
How they are making claims.

381
00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:17,760
And then you see the appearance claims.

382
00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:21,600
The thing is that, you know,
also how the claims are phrased

383
00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:26,040
does not necessarily show you
if it was a clinical

384
00:21:26,120 --> 00:21:30,960
it was an actual clinical trial
or a perception study,

385
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:35,640
because again, coming down to the risk
profile, we have many clients that,

386
00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:41,160
you know, decided to invest
in a full clinical trial, sometimes even

387
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:43,840
with the placebo risk and analysis

388
00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,160
instruments and expert skin craving.

389
00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:52,720
But their claims still look as if they
would have conducted a perception study

390
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:56,920
just because this is how they decided
they are appraising their claims.

391
00:21:57,840 --> 00:21:58,560
So how so?

392
00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,920
Because I feel like the perceptions
are like 99% of consumers.

393
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,560
They generally say, well,
how wouldn't they take a clinical one

394
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:06,000
and make it sound like a consumer one?

395
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,120
Like, for example,

396
00:22:09,120 --> 00:22:13,200
50% showed a 50% presented threat.

397
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,280
Instead of saying,
you know, 20% reduction in wrinkle.

398
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:17,640
Got it.

399
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,720
Oh, my gosh.
So this terminology is is nuts.

400
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,760
You know, I have to ask
just as know a fellow consumer,

401
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,960
are there brands that
you really get behind or you love to say.

402
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,960
Yeah, I love most of our brands.

403
00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:36,800
But are these brands that you do
the study with?

404
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,280
Like you don't have any
they're hiring you right as a third party.

405
00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:43,920
You don't have any sort of affiliation
or anything to them, Correct?

406
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:44,760
Okay.

407
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:47,720
We don't have any affiliation.

408
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:48,360
Obviously.

409
00:22:48,360 --> 00:22:52,880
I do test a lot of these products myself,
and I do have a lot of friends

410
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,000
that I love
and that I probably would not have,

411
00:22:56,440 --> 00:23:00,360
you know, bought in Sephora
if I would have seen them.

412
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,240
But so some of our some of the brands
we work with, they are really

413
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:09,240
science forward and they have really,
really good products.

414
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,000
Well, tell us, I mean, let's get on that.

415
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:13,640
Are you allowed to tell us some of them?

416
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,040
Yeah, Yeah. Of course, of course.

417
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:19,240
So one of my favorite brands
is actually called Common Air,

418
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,200
and they are clean beauty.

419
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:24,520
I think right now they've three products.

420
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:28,640
They have vitamin C,
then they have retinol,

421
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:32,280
then they have that product it
and fortunately just forgot.

422
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:34,440
But they are retinol is amazing.

423
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,400
The vitamin C is really, really great.

424
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,800
And all of that is also clean,

425
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,080
clean packaging, you know, plastic.

426
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:47,960
There they have the portions
basically cut my little capsules.

427
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:48,560
Okay?

428
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:49,120
And it's like

429
00:23:49,120 --> 00:23:51,840
super easy when you travel a lot
and it gives you right

430
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:55,080
the exact amount you need for your face
and neck, which is awesome.

431
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:56,840
Then another one

432
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,000
we we love

433
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:04,080
with tremendous results
and say beauty, for example,

434
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,680
they are, I think, a makeup

435
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,480
with skin care combined brand
and you know,

436
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,840
we love our makeup that also has

437
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,480
that also nourishes skin or is amazing.

438
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:24,040
Yeah other brands
we really like for example naked puppy

439
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:29,040
they they have amazing amazing product.

440
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:35,920
Another brand we recently worked with,
they only have one product so far.

441
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,280
It's called a super light skin.

442
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:42,720
They are entirely new on the market
and their moisturizer is nuts.

443
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,080
Oh really is probably one of the best.

444
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,240
It's actually a zero moisturizer, zero
hydrating serum

445
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,320
and you know, just from

446
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:55,600
I remember
when I first used it on my skin,

447
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:59,160
I was like, wow,
that is an amazing, amazing product.

448
00:24:59,360 --> 00:25:01,440
And here we had the same.

449
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:02,600
So they actually went through

450
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,720
a full clinical study with implementation,
with expert skin grading,

451
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:09,720
and their claims weren't in the 100%

452
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,960
because you don't get that right
in an objective study.

453
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:17,160
There's no way that your fine lines
and wrinkles will improve by 100%.

454
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,440
That's just impossible, right?

455
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:23,280
And they were quite you know,
they were happy with the process, but

456
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,000
quite unhappy with their claims.

457
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,720
But then when we showed
but this is what skinceuticals,

458
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,440
you know, the science forward
brand Skinceuticals says.

459
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,800
So then they were like,
Oh yeah, that is actually true.

460
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,400
So yeah,
because we conducted a clinical study

461
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,920
and not a perception study
that makes a ton of sense.

462
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:43,760
So again, you know,
if I see claims that I,

463
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,880
you know, percentage wise too high for me,
that's the super red flag.

464
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,720
Oh man, I kind of want to send you
a whole list of things

465
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:53,200
that I'm like,
What do you think about what?

466
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,400
We're not going to get into that now.

467
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,040
You know, I want to think
because I feel like this is something

468
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:01,480
that, you know, hopefully
I feel like the world is shifting.

469
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,080
Consumers are brands
are certainly getting more transparent.

470
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:06,240
And a lot of that
has been because of the consumers.

471
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:07,560
Consumers are more educated.

472
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:09,400
They know how to look.
They're doing more research.

473
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,760
They talk a lot more.
We all talk a lot more.

474
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,120
Social media has sort of been
the great equalizer in a lot of that.

475
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:19,200
But then certainly
it helps to have experts like yourself on,

476
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,680
you know, who are really have
that third party view and who also have

477
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,720
the scientific backing to say yes or no.

478
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,640
I feel like I could talk with you
for hours about this, Suzanne.

479
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:34,320
But, you know, in the interest of time,
if people want to know more about

480
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,040
citrus labs, if they want to know more
about what you do,

481
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:39,920
if they want to know more about
maybe some of your studies,

482
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:41,040
is there somewhere they can go?

483
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:43,600
Yeah, absolutely.

484
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:48,280
Just check out w w w dot citrus dot com.

485
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:52,520
And we are always looking for volunteers
for our studies.

486
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:58,000
There is a prescreening process
and also not everybody gets enrolled.

487
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:02,240
But yeah, if you're interested
in becoming a product tester,

488
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,040
a subject for a research study,

489
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:10,440
then you can also send an email
to hello at Citrus Lipscomb.

490
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,120
Or find out before you do these.

491
00:27:13,120 --> 00:27:16,840
Like so as a lab,
do they have to have some safety protocols

492
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,840
before your calling people in to try this?

493
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:21,080
Yeah, absolutely.

494
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:26,280
So clinical studies are typically approved
by an IAB, an institutional review board

495
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,000
that is reviewing studies based on

496
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:34,200
if they are ethical, if there are
any risks involved for participants.

497
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,400
And then once they are approved,
the study, then

498
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:39,760
after that we start recruitment.

499
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:44,440
And then obviously for each study
there's an exhaustive set of inclusion,

500
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,480
exclusion criteria.

501
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:52,560
And based on that, we then screen
participants and enroll participants.

502
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,040
Amazing. Now, is this only your base?

503
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,120
I love this to your citrus
Labs is based in Los Angeles.

504
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:01,080
We are based in Los Angles.

505
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,320
Most of our studies
conducted nationwide, though.

506
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:05,400
Oh, okay.

507
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:07,560
Oh, great, great. Amazing. Hey, listen.

508
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,440
Maybe sign me up. I'm excited.
Maybe sign me up.

509
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,480
If there's something that you think
is really, really promising.

510
00:28:14,120 --> 00:28:16,680
I. I want to thank you, Suzanne,
so much for being on here.

511
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:18,480
I'm going to make sure
to get that list of the brands

512
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:20,520
that you work with
to put in the show notes.

513
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:22,560
The people can go
and check those out for themselves

514
00:28:23,360 --> 00:28:25,720
and just thank you so much
for being on today.

515
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:27,760
I feel like this is so fascinating

516
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:29,520
and I hope that people just have
a little bit

517
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:33,240
more information and a little bit
more of that inside information to again,

518
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:35,800
be able
to make these choices for themselves,

519
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,600
to be able to decipher some of the data
that we're seeing out there.

520
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:41,160
Yeah, that was a lot of fun.

521
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:42,240
Thank you so much.

522
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:42,760
Thank you.

523
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:43,760
And of course, if you

524
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,960
the question you want me to pass on
to Suzanne or her teammates at your lab,

525
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:48,360
I'm always happy to do that.

526
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,480
You can email us at hello at art
beauty podcast dot com.

527
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:56,320
You can find us on Facebook Instagram
and of course YouTube @ArtBeautyPodcast.

528
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,360
And as always,
we will see you next Tuesday.

529
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:11,720
Hopefully a little bit smarter. Bye.