1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,220 Imagine this, you're at the Hyatt Regency Chicago 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:05,859 surrounded by the top minds in the ambulatory 3 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:07,540 surgery center industry. 4 00:00:07,919 --> 00:00:10,960 Welcome to the Becker's 30th annual meeting, the 5 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:14,259 business and operations of ASCs from October 30th 6 00:00:14,355 --> 00:00:16,214 to November 2, 2024. 7 00:00:16,994 --> 00:00:19,554 Picture the excitement as you collect business cards 8 00:00:19,554 --> 00:00:22,855 from over a 1000 executive level attendees forging 9 00:00:22,914 --> 00:00:23,974 priceless connections. 10 00:00:24,434 --> 00:00:27,094 Feel the buzz of conversations as you participate 11 00:00:27,234 --> 00:00:29,969 in more than 60 sessions led by over 12 00:00:30,849 --> 00:00:33,030 225 elite ASC speakers. 13 00:00:33,649 --> 00:00:37,090 Envision yourself gaining actionable insights on topics like 14 00:00:37,090 --> 00:00:38,390 private equity strategies, 15 00:00:38,929 --> 00:00:43,030 ASC business growth, and innovations in spine, orthopedics, 16 00:00:43,635 --> 00:00:45,734 GI, ophthalmology, and cardiology. 17 00:00:46,354 --> 00:00:49,954 Now imagine yourself listening to inspiring keynotes from 18 00:00:49,954 --> 00:00:53,094 hall of fame boxing world champion, Lila Ali, 19 00:00:53,155 --> 00:00:56,879 and professional basketball player, Caitlin Clark. Their stories 20 00:00:56,879 --> 00:00:59,199 will motivate you to take your business to 21 00:00:59,199 --> 00:01:01,600 new heights. You'll leave with a wealth of 22 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:03,920 knowledge and a network of connections to help 23 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:06,719 lead your ASC into the next year. Don't 24 00:01:06,719 --> 00:01:09,700 miss out. Get registered today. Visit beckershospitalreviewdot 25 00:01:10,954 --> 00:01:12,715 com and click on the events page to 26 00:01:12,715 --> 00:01:15,135 find the conference website. That's the beckershospitalreview.com 27 00:01:17,114 --> 00:01:19,215 events page. See you in Chicago. 28 00:01:21,915 --> 00:01:24,155 This is Laura Dierda with the Becker's Healthcare 29 00:01:24,155 --> 00:01:24,655 podcast. 30 00:01:24,980 --> 00:01:26,819 I'm thrilled today to be joined by doctor 31 00:01:26,819 --> 00:01:28,920 Mahdi Schnur, who is the neuromuscular 32 00:01:29,219 --> 00:01:32,579 skeletal dyad leader and interventional pain physician at 33 00:01:32,579 --> 00:01:33,079 Aspirus 34 00:01:33,380 --> 00:01:35,700 St. Luke's Hospital. Doctor Schnur, it's a pleasure 35 00:01:35,700 --> 00:01:37,240 to have you on the podcast today. 36 00:01:38,224 --> 00:01:39,924 Yes. Great to be here. 37 00:01:41,104 --> 00:01:43,204 Now I'm really looking forward to our conversation. 38 00:01:43,424 --> 00:01:45,584 I know there's a lot, that you're doing 39 00:01:45,584 --> 00:01:48,704 at Aspirus St. Luke's and really looking forward 40 00:01:48,704 --> 00:01:49,920 to learning more about, 41 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:53,519 how you can really galvanize a physician team's 42 00:01:53,519 --> 00:01:54,019 productivity. 43 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:56,079 But before we dive in, I was wondering 44 00:01:56,079 --> 00:01:57,200 if you could tell us a little bit 45 00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:58,819 more about yourself and your background. 46 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:04,174 Sure. So as, everyone heard, I'm doctor Mady 47 00:02:04,174 --> 00:02:06,435 Schnur. I'm an interventional pain physician 48 00:02:06,895 --> 00:02:08,355 with a background of anesthesia. 49 00:02:09,294 --> 00:02:11,615 I work in a small Midwest city at 50 00:02:11,615 --> 00:02:14,335 a hospital based practice, and I have an 51 00:02:14,335 --> 00:02:17,300 administrative role at my hospital. And I'm quite 52 00:02:17,300 --> 00:02:20,280 involved in several professional societies in my field, 53 00:02:20,500 --> 00:02:23,300 including WIPA, which is the Society of Women 54 00:02:23,300 --> 00:02:25,860 Innovators and Team Management, of which I'm one 55 00:02:25,860 --> 00:02:27,000 of the founding members, 56 00:02:27,699 --> 00:02:29,539 as well as a current board member and 57 00:02:29,539 --> 00:02:30,039 treasurer. 58 00:02:30,585 --> 00:02:33,944 I have my MBA from Cornell, and I'm 59 00:02:33,944 --> 00:02:36,685 about 5 years post fellowship training, 60 00:02:36,985 --> 00:02:38,764 which I did at Mayo Rochester. 61 00:02:39,465 --> 00:02:42,525 And in my free time, I really enjoy 62 00:02:42,585 --> 00:02:43,965 archery and running. 63 00:02:46,199 --> 00:02:48,699 Well, it's fantastic. And, you know, 64 00:02:49,159 --> 00:02:51,879 really cool to have those passions of archery 65 00:02:51,879 --> 00:02:54,599 and running. I can imagine, you know, it 66 00:02:54,599 --> 00:02:56,060 is really helpful after 67 00:02:56,519 --> 00:02:58,840 a lot of, the clinical and administrative work 68 00:02:58,840 --> 00:02:59,659 that you do. 69 00:03:01,055 --> 00:03:02,354 Yes. I'm so excited 70 00:03:02,655 --> 00:03:03,875 to watch the Olympics. 71 00:03:04,254 --> 00:03:05,875 Really rooting for team USA. 72 00:03:06,895 --> 00:03:08,974 Absolutely. It's going to be a a fun 73 00:03:08,974 --> 00:03:10,675 summer here coming up. So, 74 00:03:11,375 --> 00:03:13,215 from your perspective, what do you see as 75 00:03:13,215 --> 00:03:15,259 being some of the biggest challenges for physician 76 00:03:15,259 --> 00:03:16,719 productivity in 2024? 77 00:03:18,860 --> 00:03:21,659 Yeah. So one of the biggest challenges is 78 00:03:21,659 --> 00:03:24,959 honestly maintaining a consistent team around you. And 79 00:03:25,019 --> 00:03:27,259 what I mean by that is it always 80 00:03:27,259 --> 00:03:30,560 helps to have rad techs, nurses, medical assistants, 81 00:03:30,675 --> 00:03:31,175 fillers 82 00:03:31,474 --> 00:03:32,215 that really 83 00:03:32,514 --> 00:03:33,014 know 84 00:03:33,314 --> 00:03:33,814 your 85 00:03:34,115 --> 00:03:34,615 practice 86 00:03:34,915 --> 00:03:37,895 and can do their jobs well. And so 87 00:03:38,354 --> 00:03:41,635 having this team and really convincing them to 88 00:03:41,635 --> 00:03:44,675 stay with you for long time periods, I 89 00:03:44,675 --> 00:03:46,135 think, is super important. 90 00:03:46,889 --> 00:03:48,590 And second to this, 91 00:03:48,889 --> 00:03:49,629 I think 92 00:03:50,009 --> 00:03:52,409 also important, is really finding out what others 93 00:03:52,409 --> 00:03:54,430 in the field are doing in terms of, 94 00:03:54,889 --> 00:03:57,949 timing and number of procedures and clinic visits. 95 00:03:58,090 --> 00:03:58,590 It's 96 00:03:58,995 --> 00:04:01,094 really helped me so much to 97 00:04:01,794 --> 00:04:04,534 really be able to go to, multiple conferences 98 00:04:05,235 --> 00:04:05,895 a year 99 00:04:06,355 --> 00:04:07,875 and to be part of, 100 00:04:08,275 --> 00:04:09,495 professional societies. 101 00:04:10,115 --> 00:04:10,615 When 102 00:04:11,180 --> 00:04:13,260 I came from fellowship, it was easy to 103 00:04:13,260 --> 00:04:15,439 kind of continue that routine that I had, 104 00:04:16,220 --> 00:04:17,980 but I soon realized that if I did 105 00:04:17,980 --> 00:04:18,480 that, 106 00:04:19,020 --> 00:04:21,920 I wasn't going to make really my personal 107 00:04:22,060 --> 00:04:25,035 productivity goals, and I wasn't gonna have good 108 00:04:25,035 --> 00:04:27,375 patient access in my practice, particularly, 109 00:04:29,274 --> 00:04:32,074 because I I live in a a small 110 00:04:32,074 --> 00:04:33,134 town, and, 111 00:04:33,834 --> 00:04:36,555 there aren't as many physicians as there would 112 00:04:36,555 --> 00:04:38,175 be in really bigger cities. 113 00:04:42,850 --> 00:04:44,930 That makes a lot of sense. And, certainly, 114 00:04:44,930 --> 00:04:46,370 I can imagine a lot of, 115 00:04:46,689 --> 00:04:49,990 physicians and organizations are in a similar situation. 116 00:04:50,769 --> 00:04:52,149 So when you look at 117 00:04:53,035 --> 00:04:55,454 the idea around productivity and how you can, 118 00:04:55,915 --> 00:04:56,894 boost that within 119 00:04:57,194 --> 00:04:59,855 the different hospitals and systems, 120 00:05:00,394 --> 00:05:02,574 what do you do to design your productivity 121 00:05:02,794 --> 00:05:03,294 targets? 122 00:05:05,389 --> 00:05:08,110 Yeah. So, I use one of the big 123 00:05:08,110 --> 00:05:09,569 databases, so NGMA, 124 00:05:09,949 --> 00:05:11,170 really, as a guide. 125 00:05:11,790 --> 00:05:14,430 I think not all of the databases are 126 00:05:14,430 --> 00:05:17,069 correct in every aspect of, the data that 127 00:05:17,069 --> 00:05:19,649 they use, but they're certainly quite useful. 128 00:05:20,694 --> 00:05:23,654 Additionally, I have found it super helpful to 129 00:05:23,654 --> 00:05:25,035 ask my close colleagues 130 00:05:25,415 --> 00:05:28,375 and friends really what their goals are and, 131 00:05:28,375 --> 00:05:29,995 you know, what are the number of procedures 132 00:05:30,055 --> 00:05:32,055 they're doing in a day, and what are 133 00:05:32,055 --> 00:05:34,154 the number of patients they're seeing in clinic 134 00:05:35,500 --> 00:05:38,220 important to this? And something that I think 135 00:05:38,220 --> 00:05:39,279 has taken me, 136 00:05:39,979 --> 00:05:41,500 a bit of time to find out is, 137 00:05:41,500 --> 00:05:44,300 you know, what what are the numbers of 138 00:05:44,300 --> 00:05:47,339 ancillary staff, they use and the resources that 139 00:05:47,339 --> 00:05:48,399 they have available. 140 00:05:48,995 --> 00:05:50,915 I think we all know that if we 141 00:05:50,915 --> 00:05:54,214 had an infinite team and infinite resources, 142 00:05:54,595 --> 00:05:56,535 you know, we could all be quite productive. 143 00:05:56,754 --> 00:05:59,475 But knowing the resources that you have and 144 00:05:59,475 --> 00:06:01,175 what's feasible with that, 145 00:06:01,540 --> 00:06:03,939 I think, is is good and then seeing 146 00:06:03,939 --> 00:06:06,120 what other people are doing with similar resources. 147 00:06:07,939 --> 00:06:10,259 That's fascinating to to hear about. And, you 148 00:06:10,259 --> 00:06:13,620 know, I can imagine having those targets and 149 00:06:13,620 --> 00:06:15,805 looking at, you know, what is available to 150 00:06:15,805 --> 00:06:17,664 you. I I know a lot of organizations 151 00:06:17,724 --> 00:06:18,785 are are in a similar 152 00:06:19,164 --> 00:06:22,125 situation in in trying to understand, you know, 153 00:06:22,125 --> 00:06:24,365 what makes the most sense for them so 154 00:06:24,365 --> 00:06:27,164 they can continue to provide excellent patient care 155 00:06:27,164 --> 00:06:27,904 even if 156 00:06:28,229 --> 00:06:30,069 they're they're still trying to go through and 157 00:06:30,069 --> 00:06:31,209 figure out exactly, 158 00:06:31,990 --> 00:06:34,310 what that productivity looks like and how to 159 00:06:34,310 --> 00:06:36,009 strengthen their teams. And so, 160 00:06:36,310 --> 00:06:39,110 you know, what from your perspective, what are 161 00:06:39,110 --> 00:06:41,110 the challenges that you see, especially in the 162 00:06:41,110 --> 00:06:42,709 field of pain management over the next 2 163 00:06:42,709 --> 00:06:45,345 to 3 years, and what are you really 164 00:06:45,345 --> 00:06:46,245 focusing on? 165 00:06:48,464 --> 00:06:50,865 Yeah. I think every year, and and, you 166 00:06:50,865 --> 00:06:53,745 know, I'm only 5 years post fellowship, there 167 00:06:53,745 --> 00:06:56,144 seem to be so many new technology and 168 00:06:56,144 --> 00:06:57,269 procedures that, 169 00:06:57,829 --> 00:06:59,689 we see being introduced into 170 00:07:00,069 --> 00:07:02,009 the field of, pain management. 171 00:07:02,870 --> 00:07:03,370 And 172 00:07:03,829 --> 00:07:06,229 I personally have found it quite difficult to 173 00:07:06,229 --> 00:07:08,389 know which ones are appropriate and feasible to 174 00:07:08,389 --> 00:07:10,649 really bring into my everyday practice. 175 00:07:11,404 --> 00:07:12,384 When I go 176 00:07:12,925 --> 00:07:15,564 to conferences or when I, talk with my 177 00:07:15,564 --> 00:07:18,925 colleagues, I find it helpful to really have 178 00:07:18,925 --> 00:07:21,024 them talk about their experience with different 179 00:07:21,404 --> 00:07:23,264 products and new techniques, 180 00:07:23,805 --> 00:07:27,060 before I'm really able to to introduce that. 181 00:07:27,060 --> 00:07:27,879 The other thing 182 00:07:28,259 --> 00:07:29,560 is most companies 183 00:07:30,180 --> 00:07:32,680 will provide training for a lot of these 184 00:07:33,139 --> 00:07:34,680 procedures. And so, 185 00:07:34,980 --> 00:07:37,699 you know, going to the trainings, whether it, 186 00:07:37,699 --> 00:07:39,939 you know, be at a big conference like 187 00:07:39,939 --> 00:07:41,720 NAMS, Aspen, WIPA, 188 00:07:42,615 --> 00:07:44,935 or one of the the private trainings they 189 00:07:44,935 --> 00:07:46,314 provide has been 190 00:07:46,855 --> 00:07:47,915 quite helpful. 191 00:07:49,095 --> 00:07:51,975 The other thing is knowing what resources these 192 00:07:51,975 --> 00:07:53,675 companies have for you. 193 00:07:54,389 --> 00:07:55,669 So being in a, 194 00:07:56,149 --> 00:07:58,490 kind of small Woodwest town, I 195 00:07:58,870 --> 00:08:01,990 wanna know if, the companies have reps that 196 00:08:01,990 --> 00:08:04,629 can come out and be there when I 197 00:08:04,629 --> 00:08:06,649 introduce their products or 198 00:08:07,029 --> 00:08:08,789 be there for the patients if the patients 199 00:08:08,789 --> 00:08:09,610 have questions, 200 00:08:10,134 --> 00:08:11,834 you know, provide me with pamphlets 201 00:08:12,134 --> 00:08:12,634 or, 202 00:08:13,175 --> 00:08:14,634 guides, things like that. 203 00:08:16,855 --> 00:08:18,774 I I definitely see where that would be 204 00:08:18,774 --> 00:08:21,514 extremely helpful to have, you know, the the 205 00:08:21,654 --> 00:08:23,735 companies and and make sure there's support on 206 00:08:23,735 --> 00:08:24,955 their from the reps. 207 00:08:25,639 --> 00:08:27,740 When you think about some of the different 208 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,039 technologies that you've seen and experiences that you've 209 00:08:30,039 --> 00:08:32,440 had, is there anything that you're really excited 210 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:32,940 about? 211 00:08:36,039 --> 00:08:37,980 So when I came out of 212 00:08:39,125 --> 00:08:39,625 fellowship, 213 00:08:40,004 --> 00:08:41,544 peripheral nerve stimulation 214 00:08:42,004 --> 00:08:42,504 had 215 00:08:42,884 --> 00:08:44,884 kind of had a moment where it was 216 00:08:44,884 --> 00:08:45,945 starting to flourish, 217 00:08:46,644 --> 00:08:48,024 and I really 218 00:08:49,605 --> 00:08:51,845 took on to that and started using it 219 00:08:51,845 --> 00:08:54,184 in my everyday practice even though in fellowship 220 00:08:54,210 --> 00:08:56,050 I had really only done it a few 221 00:08:56,050 --> 00:08:56,550 times. 222 00:08:57,090 --> 00:08:57,590 One 223 00:08:58,210 --> 00:09:01,490 one company in particular I found, quite easy 224 00:09:01,490 --> 00:09:02,470 to use their 225 00:09:02,850 --> 00:09:03,350 devices, 226 00:09:03,730 --> 00:09:04,230 and, 227 00:09:04,690 --> 00:09:07,090 I really started offering it almost as a 228 00:09:07,090 --> 00:09:08,309 Hail Mary. And, 229 00:09:09,024 --> 00:09:11,105 my patients have really loved it. It's really 230 00:09:11,105 --> 00:09:13,424 given me something else I can offer to 231 00:09:13,424 --> 00:09:16,164 them when there really isn't much else, 232 00:09:16,544 --> 00:09:17,365 to be done. 233 00:09:17,904 --> 00:09:20,784 And, you know, probably 50% or greater of 234 00:09:20,784 --> 00:09:22,865 the time, I've had good success with it, 235 00:09:22,865 --> 00:09:25,690 which for me is a big win. I 236 00:09:25,690 --> 00:09:27,789 think my biggest worry when I'm 237 00:09:28,410 --> 00:09:29,470 using products, 238 00:09:29,850 --> 00:09:31,549 I worry that 239 00:09:32,490 --> 00:09:35,129 the research and the promises that they're giving 240 00:09:35,129 --> 00:09:36,429 to me just aren't 241 00:09:36,815 --> 00:09:37,315 true. 242 00:09:37,695 --> 00:09:40,355 And so if I'm using a product and 243 00:09:40,815 --> 00:09:41,794 I've given it, 244 00:09:42,495 --> 00:09:44,654 you know, several tries, I would say 5 245 00:09:44,654 --> 00:09:46,355 to 10, and I haven't seen 246 00:09:46,815 --> 00:09:49,534 the success that was touted, you know, I 247 00:09:49,534 --> 00:09:51,375 I start to think to myself maybe it's 248 00:09:51,375 --> 00:09:52,274 something that 249 00:09:53,190 --> 00:09:54,809 I don't wanna continue on. 250 00:09:57,590 --> 00:10:01,029 That's really helpful perspective and especially, you know, 251 00:10:01,029 --> 00:10:03,029 wanting to make sure that you're actually seeing 252 00:10:03,029 --> 00:10:04,629 the results as you said with your patients 253 00:10:04,629 --> 00:10:07,294 and it's making sense for you. Now is 254 00:10:07,294 --> 00:10:09,134 there anything else that you think about when 255 00:10:09,134 --> 00:10:10,975 you're trying to decide which new procedures to 256 00:10:10,975 --> 00:10:12,274 integrate into your practice? 257 00:10:14,334 --> 00:10:17,214 Yeah. I I think that when new exciting 258 00:10:17,214 --> 00:10:19,134 things come out, you're always in a rush 259 00:10:19,134 --> 00:10:19,634 to, 260 00:10:20,990 --> 00:10:23,149 you know, go do it. And I find 261 00:10:23,149 --> 00:10:25,950 that giving yourself a little bit of time 262 00:10:25,950 --> 00:10:28,769 before integrating into your practice is good. 263 00:10:29,230 --> 00:10:33,570 1, because oftentimes, companies will develop parts of 264 00:10:34,105 --> 00:10:36,664 their products that weren't there right at the 265 00:10:36,664 --> 00:10:39,865 beginning stages, but, also, it gives you time 266 00:10:39,865 --> 00:10:40,524 to see, 267 00:10:41,144 --> 00:10:43,544 how other people have used the product or 268 00:10:43,544 --> 00:10:44,205 the techniques 269 00:10:44,825 --> 00:10:46,044 and really, 270 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:48,480 you know, kind of form a plan on 271 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:49,620 how you're going to, 272 00:10:50,399 --> 00:10:52,259 integrate it in your everyday practice. 273 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:53,460 If 274 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:56,480 I feel like something looks feasible and I 275 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:57,620 wanna add it in, 276 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:00,580 one of the first things I do 277 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:01,460 is 278 00:11:01,774 --> 00:11:04,575 I really get these sheets that the that 279 00:11:04,575 --> 00:11:06,975 the reps can, give to you. They're almost 280 00:11:06,975 --> 00:11:08,754 like pro little pro formas. 281 00:11:09,615 --> 00:11:11,235 And then I bring it to 282 00:11:11,934 --> 00:11:14,815 the value analysis committee at my hospital, which 283 00:11:14,815 --> 00:11:17,154 I think is a a pretty common, 284 00:11:18,070 --> 00:11:21,350 entity where you basically present the product you 285 00:11:21,350 --> 00:11:22,169 wanna use 286 00:11:22,549 --> 00:11:23,610 and talk about 287 00:11:24,230 --> 00:11:26,809 how it's new and helpful for your patients 288 00:11:27,350 --> 00:11:29,289 and, really, how it's 289 00:11:29,924 --> 00:11:32,245 it's going to, you know, make money and 290 00:11:32,245 --> 00:11:34,264 the value that you're gonna bring to your, 291 00:11:34,965 --> 00:11:35,784 either hospital 292 00:11:36,644 --> 00:11:37,384 or practice. 293 00:11:39,764 --> 00:11:41,205 That makes a lot of sense. And, you 294 00:11:41,205 --> 00:11:43,945 know, I'm glad you mentioned having that opportunity 295 00:11:44,245 --> 00:11:44,745 to 296 00:11:45,149 --> 00:11:46,690 show, the value 297 00:11:47,149 --> 00:11:49,230 for any of the new types of procedures 298 00:11:49,230 --> 00:11:50,829 you're trying to bring in. I can imagine 299 00:11:50,829 --> 00:11:52,589 everything comes with a cost. And so when 300 00:11:52,589 --> 00:11:54,750 you're you're looking at the value and thinking 301 00:11:54,750 --> 00:11:56,909 about the value of what you're doing both 302 00:11:56,909 --> 00:11:59,329 for the patient as well as, the organization 303 00:11:59,549 --> 00:12:00,049 overall, 304 00:12:00,884 --> 00:12:03,065 package that in a way that really resonates 305 00:12:03,125 --> 00:12:03,625 within, 306 00:12:04,004 --> 00:12:05,144 the committee leadership? 307 00:12:07,125 --> 00:12:10,245 Yeah. So, 1, I usually tell them, you 308 00:12:10,245 --> 00:12:11,845 know, these are the number of patients that 309 00:12:11,845 --> 00:12:14,585 I think I'll have every month, every year. 310 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:17,580 And then oftentimes, 311 00:12:18,039 --> 00:12:20,940 I've gotten buy ins from my partners, 312 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:24,279 as well as, some of the other services 313 00:12:24,279 --> 00:12:26,840 that I work very closely with. So, for 314 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:27,899 example, neurosurgery 315 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:29,980 or, PM and R. 316 00:12:30,544 --> 00:12:33,184 And, really, with their buy in, I have 317 00:12:33,184 --> 00:12:36,304 found it's quite easy to move forward in 318 00:12:36,304 --> 00:12:37,125 saying that, 319 00:12:37,904 --> 00:12:41,024 this product or this technique is gonna be 320 00:12:41,024 --> 00:12:41,524 useful 321 00:12:42,065 --> 00:12:42,884 in the practice. 322 00:12:43,879 --> 00:12:46,039 That's great advice. Doctor Cheniere, thank you so 323 00:12:46,039 --> 00:12:47,720 much for joining us on the podcast today. 324 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:49,960 This has been a really fascinating conversation, and 325 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:51,480 I look forward to connecting with you again 326 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:51,980 soon. 327 00:12:53,159 --> 00:12:54,860 Yes. Thank you for having me.