WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.000 --> 00:00:07.359 - Welcome to Working Writers episode five. I'm Pete 2 00:00:07.359 --> 00:00:07.859 - Alden. 3 00:00:08.320 --> 00:00:10.400 - And I'm Brian Chaffin. Make sure to check 4 00:00:10.400 --> 00:00:12.644 - out our website at workingwriters.io. 5 00:00:12.884 --> 00:00:16.505 - You can also contact us via workingwriters.io. 6 00:00:16.725 --> 00:00:18.324 - And while you're there, sign up for our 7 00:00:18.324 --> 00:00:20.024 - newsletter. 100%. 8 00:00:20.164 --> 00:00:21.225 - Yep. Pete, 9 00:00:21.525 --> 00:00:24.025 - I wanted to talk today about 10 00:00:25.530 --> 00:00:27.210 - another topic that is very near and dear 11 00:00:27.210 --> 00:00:28.030 - to my heart, 12 00:00:28.650 --> 00:00:30.970 - and and that's critique partners and the importance 13 00:00:30.970 --> 00:00:33.530 - of critique partners. Yeah. Yeah. And they are 14 00:00:33.530 --> 00:00:34.270 - very important. 15 00:00:34.890 --> 00:00:38.010 - They are very, very important. So let's start 16 00:00:38.010 --> 00:00:38.490 - with, 17 00:00:38.890 --> 00:00:41.085 - what exactly a critique partner is. 18 00:00:42.125 --> 00:00:42.945 - 100%. 19 00:00:43.004 --> 00:00:45.484 - So given the word critique or in keeping 20 00:00:45.484 --> 00:00:46.545 - with the word critique, 21 00:00:47.244 --> 00:00:49.984 - it's not somebody who criticizes our work. 22 00:00:50.364 --> 00:00:52.844 - It's somebody who analyzes and assesses what we 23 00:00:52.844 --> 00:00:54.924 - are in the midst of writing. So a 24 00:00:54.924 --> 00:00:57.060 - project that's live or work in progress, 25 00:00:57.940 --> 00:00:59.539 - and they are there for us to bounce 26 00:00:59.539 --> 00:01:02.039 - ideas off and often to read 27 00:01:02.579 --> 00:01:04.040 - either an entire project, 28 00:01:04.579 --> 00:01:06.180 - if we're lucky enough to have that kind 29 00:01:06.180 --> 00:01:07.079 - of critique partner, 30 00:01:07.700 --> 00:01:09.939 - pardon me, who's got the time, or even 31 00:01:09.939 --> 00:01:10.520 - a chunk 32 00:01:10.965 --> 00:01:12.805 - of that, and then give us feedback on 33 00:01:12.805 --> 00:01:14.584 - how it's coming across and how it's working 34 00:01:14.724 --> 00:01:15.704 - or not working. 35 00:01:16.484 --> 00:01:17.444 - Well, I, 36 00:01:18.484 --> 00:01:18.984 - I 37 00:01:19.844 --> 00:01:21.224 - I look at it a little bit differently, 38 00:01:21.525 --> 00:01:22.825 - everything you just said, 39 00:01:23.125 --> 00:01:26.180 - but I also think that a critique partner 40 00:01:26.239 --> 00:01:27.219 - is going to 41 00:01:28.239 --> 00:01:29.060 - be your, 42 00:01:30.719 --> 00:01:32.899 - your your your your pre arc 43 00:01:34.159 --> 00:01:34.899 - your critic. 44 00:01:35.359 --> 00:01:36.879 - They're they're going to go through and they're 45 00:01:36.879 --> 00:01:38.719 - going to do their, you know, line by 46 00:01:38.719 --> 00:01:39.219 - line 47 00:01:39.795 --> 00:01:40.534 - or their, 48 00:01:40.995 --> 00:01:44.355 - you know, essentially development edit or a copy 49 00:01:44.355 --> 00:01:46.775 - edit or whatever their their strength is. 50 00:01:47.394 --> 00:01:49.395 - And I and I think as you've just 51 00:01:49.395 --> 00:01:51.655 - indicated, that depends on the strength of the 52 00:01:52.130 --> 00:01:53.730 - or the strengths that they have and the 53 00:01:53.730 --> 00:01:55.569 - skills that they have and the time and 54 00:01:55.569 --> 00:01:57.890 - the the affection that they have for you 55 00:01:57.890 --> 00:01:58.710 - that they'll they'll 56 00:01:59.170 --> 00:02:01.650 - give up that give up that time because 57 00:02:01.650 --> 00:02:03.350 - it is it can take a while. 58 00:02:03.810 --> 00:02:04.630 - So Yeah. 59 00:02:05.185 --> 00:02:07.125 - And just not really side dragging, but having 60 00:02:07.344 --> 00:02:08.405 - being in a, 61 00:02:09.504 --> 00:02:10.705 - a writing group that I'm not part of 62 00:02:10.705 --> 00:02:11.824 - anymore, but I was in it for the 63 00:02:11.824 --> 00:02:13.044 - better part of a decade. 64 00:02:13.905 --> 00:02:15.985 - And there were periods where there were there 65 00:02:15.985 --> 00:02:17.985 - were three of us in particular, sometimes four 66 00:02:17.985 --> 00:02:20.710 - of us, who were reading each other's full 67 00:02:20.849 --> 00:02:21.349 - drafts. 68 00:02:21.889 --> 00:02:22.389 - And 69 00:02:22.770 --> 00:02:24.930 - when the writer was in the early part 70 00:02:24.930 --> 00:02:27.810 - of that that process of drafting that, then 71 00:02:27.810 --> 00:02:29.330 - the feedback might be a little bit more 72 00:02:29.330 --> 00:02:29.830 - general. 73 00:02:30.210 --> 00:02:31.569 - It might be a little bit more big 74 00:02:31.569 --> 00:02:32.069 - picture, 75 00:02:32.385 --> 00:02:34.465 - bird's eye view with maybe some comments and 76 00:02:34.465 --> 00:02:35.925 - maybe a few tweaks to, 77 00:02:36.224 --> 00:02:37.824 - you know, to line edits and things like 78 00:02:37.824 --> 00:02:40.465 - that. When that writer was in the the 79 00:02:40.465 --> 00:02:43.444 - final processes of of polishing it, that's when, 80 00:02:43.985 --> 00:02:45.425 - we were lucky enough to have three of 81 00:02:45.425 --> 00:02:46.885 - us in particular who were happy 82 00:02:47.370 --> 00:02:49.069 - to do those full line edits. 83 00:02:49.610 --> 00:02:51.689 - And I gotta tell you, it was interesting 84 00:02:51.689 --> 00:02:53.449 - to when you get line edits from two 85 00:02:53.449 --> 00:02:54.270 - different people 86 00:02:54.889 --> 00:02:56.270 - on the same project, 87 00:02:57.289 --> 00:02:59.610 - it's really, really interesting when you see some 88 00:02:59.610 --> 00:03:03.074 - difference differences of opinion there too. But, yeah, 89 00:03:03.074 --> 00:03:04.835 - I agree with you. I think there's stages. 90 00:03:04.835 --> 00:03:06.294 - So it depends on what 91 00:03:06.675 --> 00:03:08.294 - what point of your process, 92 00:03:08.675 --> 00:03:10.194 - they're coming in. And I don't think we 93 00:03:10.194 --> 00:03:13.014 - should be afraid to seek our critique partners 94 00:03:13.074 --> 00:03:15.300 - at all sorts of phases as long as 95 00:03:15.300 --> 00:03:16.340 - it's helpful to us. 96 00:03:16.979 --> 00:03:18.340 - I think at some point, we need to 97 00:03:18.340 --> 00:03:19.939 - be confident enough in our own work to 98 00:03:19.939 --> 00:03:22.180 - kind of, you know, go through it again 99 00:03:22.180 --> 00:03:24.180 - ourselves, fix some things that we see, tweak 100 00:03:24.180 --> 00:03:26.659 - it a bit, and maybe then then hang 101 00:03:26.659 --> 00:03:29.060 - on and get those higher level edits from 102 00:03:29.060 --> 00:03:30.194 - somebody. Yeah. 103 00:03:31.155 --> 00:03:32.835 - Right. So do you still have those critique 104 00:03:32.835 --> 00:03:33.335 - partners? 105 00:03:33.955 --> 00:03:35.814 - Not those two. No. So my 106 00:03:36.115 --> 00:03:38.115 - critique partner world is kinda narrowed down to 107 00:03:38.115 --> 00:03:39.875 - a couple. So there's a very good friend 108 00:03:39.875 --> 00:03:41.235 - of mine who I would see as a 109 00:03:41.235 --> 00:03:42.135 - novel buddy. 110 00:03:42.930 --> 00:03:44.770 - He and I have often we we often 111 00:03:44.770 --> 00:03:45.990 - go to each other in 112 00:03:46.370 --> 00:03:48.050 - the the last phases of a novella or 113 00:03:48.050 --> 00:03:49.430 - a full novel and 114 00:03:49.889 --> 00:03:52.050 - say, hey. I think this is okay to 115 00:03:52.050 --> 00:03:53.110 - send to my editor. 116 00:03:53.569 --> 00:03:55.409 - But before I do, you know, I want 117 00:03:55.409 --> 00:03:57.705 - their time to be well well spent on, 118 00:03:57.784 --> 00:04:00.344 - you know, making higher level polishes. Please go 119 00:04:00.344 --> 00:04:02.205 - through this. Tell me if something's not working. 120 00:04:02.585 --> 00:04:04.905 - And we're we've known each other for about 121 00:04:04.905 --> 00:04:07.564 - thirteen years. We met in an online critique 122 00:04:08.104 --> 00:04:10.985 - group, back in around 02/2011, 123 00:04:10.985 --> 00:04:13.405 - 2012, so it's actually longer than thirteen years. 124 00:04:14.789 --> 00:04:16.629 - He he and I would be well, he 125 00:04:16.629 --> 00:04:18.470 - would be my main go to, and then 126 00:04:18.470 --> 00:04:20.490 - there's a there's another person. And then sometimes, 127 00:04:21.029 --> 00:04:23.189 - for smaller chunks of things, there's another person 128 00:04:23.189 --> 00:04:25.189 - I'd go to. So at the moment, I 129 00:04:25.189 --> 00:04:27.689 - am without writing group, although that may well 130 00:04:28.024 --> 00:04:29.884 - change as we've discussed off air 131 00:04:32.824 --> 00:04:34.904 - Yeah. Given that we're, yeah, given that we're, 132 00:04:35.625 --> 00:04:38.024 - moving in different networks at the moment. Yes. 133 00:04:38.024 --> 00:04:38.925 - I I certainly, 134 00:04:39.384 --> 00:04:42.104 - plan to become your your your contributor. Just 135 00:04:42.104 --> 00:04:42.604 - spoiler. 136 00:04:44.610 --> 00:04:44.850 - Yeah. 137 00:04:45.889 --> 00:04:46.550 - All right. 138 00:04:47.729 --> 00:04:50.289 - So let's talk about let's talk about the 139 00:04:50.289 --> 00:04:52.229 - different strengths because I I think that 140 00:04:53.169 --> 00:04:55.889 - that piggybacks off of what what you just 141 00:04:55.889 --> 00:04:57.350 - talked about very well because 142 00:04:58.894 --> 00:05:01.154 - it is absolutely a fact 143 00:05:02.014 --> 00:05:04.274 - that everybody has different strengths as a writer, 144 00:05:05.375 --> 00:05:05.875 - and 145 00:05:06.735 --> 00:05:08.514 - they also have different strengths 146 00:05:09.375 --> 00:05:11.160 - as an editor or a critiquer. 147 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:14.139 - And sometimes sometimes 148 00:05:15.959 --> 00:05:17.879 - the, you know, the Venn diagram for that 149 00:05:17.879 --> 00:05:19.879 - may be like that. The, you know, their 150 00:05:19.879 --> 00:05:21.480 - strengths as a writer may not be the 151 00:05:21.480 --> 00:05:24.220 - same thing as their strengths as an editor. 152 00:05:24.995 --> 00:05:26.834 - And and I I guess there's the third 153 00:05:26.834 --> 00:05:28.274 - thing, of course, you know, how much they 154 00:05:28.274 --> 00:05:29.875 - like you. That was I had never thought 155 00:05:29.875 --> 00:05:30.375 - about 156 00:05:30.914 --> 00:05:33.654 - that, but that that's that's a real thing. 157 00:05:33.714 --> 00:05:35.414 - Like, you know, I've I've critiqued, 158 00:05:39.009 --> 00:05:40.069 - eight, nine 159 00:05:40.769 --> 00:05:42.230 - of Nick Snape's books. 160 00:05:44.050 --> 00:05:46.870 - That's cool. Lucky you too. And lucky him. 161 00:05:46.930 --> 00:05:49.730 - Yeah. Yeah. Yes. For sure. And I I 162 00:05:49.730 --> 00:05:50.790 - I love doing it. 163 00:05:51.254 --> 00:05:53.435 - Not everybody could do that. Yeah. 164 00:05:54.215 --> 00:05:56.634 - That's a big investment of time. Yes. Yeah. 165 00:05:56.855 --> 00:05:58.634 - And you have to 166 00:06:00.694 --> 00:06:02.155 - you have to be mindful 167 00:06:05.509 --> 00:06:07.689 - of the people that are helping you write 168 00:06:10.310 --> 00:06:11.129 - their strengths, 169 00:06:11.509 --> 00:06:13.829 - their ability to do something. You you have 170 00:06:13.829 --> 00:06:15.910 - to be mindful of of other people as 171 00:06:15.910 --> 00:06:18.535 - people. Right? I mean, we should always be 172 00:06:18.535 --> 00:06:19.035 - mindful 173 00:06:20.615 --> 00:06:22.314 - of people as people, 174 00:06:22.855 --> 00:06:25.514 - but this is especially true for writers 175 00:06:25.895 --> 00:06:27.754 - and the people in your close circle. 176 00:06:31.729 --> 00:06:32.229 - Alright. 177 00:06:32.849 --> 00:06:35.329 - So for Just just before you jump in, 178 00:06:35.329 --> 00:06:36.930 - the what that makes me think of I'm 179 00:06:36.930 --> 00:06:38.310 - sorry to interrupt you. But 180 00:06:38.849 --> 00:06:40.529 - the first the first place my mind goes 181 00:06:40.529 --> 00:06:42.689 - to is kind of a continuum between arrogance 182 00:06:42.689 --> 00:06:43.349 - and humility. 183 00:06:43.824 --> 00:06:46.324 - Mhmm. For for us as the people receiving 184 00:06:47.264 --> 00:06:48.564 - the the critique, 185 00:06:49.185 --> 00:06:51.285 - it's very, very easy for us to be 186 00:06:51.425 --> 00:06:52.324 - overly humble 187 00:06:53.024 --> 00:06:54.944 - when we're not super confident in our writing. 188 00:06:54.944 --> 00:06:56.625 - We and we might be in early stages 189 00:06:56.625 --> 00:06:58.069 - or or we've written a lot of things, 190 00:06:58.069 --> 00:06:59.589 - but this project is a new kind of 191 00:06:59.589 --> 00:07:00.649 - thing that we're attempting. 192 00:07:01.029 --> 00:07:02.709 - And we get what we think of as 193 00:07:02.709 --> 00:07:03.209 - negative 194 00:07:03.990 --> 00:07:06.389 - feedback. Sometimes it's very easy just to accept 195 00:07:06.389 --> 00:07:06.889 - that, 196 00:07:07.269 --> 00:07:09.449 - oh, you know, what they've said is true. 197 00:07:09.745 --> 00:07:11.204 - This is a pointless exercise 198 00:07:12.225 --> 00:07:14.324 - and go straight into that kind of catastrophic 199 00:07:14.464 --> 00:07:14.964 - thinking. 200 00:07:16.384 --> 00:07:16.884 - Or 201 00:07:17.185 --> 00:07:19.024 - we've written so many things, and we're so 202 00:07:19.024 --> 00:07:20.785 - confident in our ability and, you know, the 203 00:07:20.785 --> 00:07:22.384 - reviews that we've had or whatever it is 204 00:07:22.384 --> 00:07:24.099 - that someone gives us a bit of negative 205 00:07:24.099 --> 00:07:25.539 - feedback and a little bit of, hang on 206 00:07:25.539 --> 00:07:28.259 - a second. Wait a second. And we think, 207 00:07:28.259 --> 00:07:30.259 - what do they know? But I think that 208 00:07:30.259 --> 00:07:31.699 - coming back in the middle is part of 209 00:07:31.699 --> 00:07:33.539 - what what helps to come back in the 210 00:07:33.539 --> 00:07:35.240 - middle is what you just said about 211 00:07:35.985 --> 00:07:37.845 - getting to know that critique partner, 212 00:07:38.225 --> 00:07:40.145 - being aware of their their strengths and some 213 00:07:40.145 --> 00:07:41.985 - of their not strengths. I wouldn't say weaknesses, 214 00:07:41.985 --> 00:07:44.305 - but areas that they're not strong in, and 215 00:07:44.305 --> 00:07:45.824 - sort of running it through that grid and 216 00:07:45.824 --> 00:07:47.504 - saying, you know what? They are actually better 217 00:07:47.504 --> 00:07:48.750 - at grammar than I am. 218 00:07:50.110 --> 00:07:51.629 - They are, you know, they do have a 219 00:07:51.629 --> 00:07:52.610 - lot more experience 220 00:07:52.910 --> 00:07:53.410 - with 221 00:07:54.110 --> 00:07:56.029 - whatever it is, with, you know, working in 222 00:07:56.029 --> 00:07:58.670 - that that industry or whatever it is. Maybe 223 00:07:58.670 --> 00:08:00.269 - on this occasion, I'll listen to them a 224 00:08:00.269 --> 00:08:02.449 - bit more than I might have already, or 225 00:08:03.154 --> 00:08:05.875 - saying, you know, just because they're good at 226 00:08:05.875 --> 00:08:08.274 - critiquing doesn't mean they're right in every single 227 00:08:08.274 --> 00:08:10.435 - instance as well. So at some point, I 228 00:08:10.435 --> 00:08:12.435 - need to back myself as well. So Yeah. 229 00:08:12.435 --> 00:08:13.495 - Yeah. Yeah. I 230 00:08:13.875 --> 00:08:15.414 - I I I think it's very 231 00:08:16.354 --> 00:08:17.574 - it is very important 232 00:08:18.379 --> 00:08:19.740 - to know when to say yes and when 233 00:08:19.740 --> 00:08:20.879 - to say no when 234 00:08:21.420 --> 00:08:23.259 - it comes to what a critique partner, when 235 00:08:23.259 --> 00:08:24.620 - it comes to what an editor is saying 236 00:08:24.620 --> 00:08:25.120 - too. 237 00:08:25.660 --> 00:08:26.460 - 100%. 238 00:08:26.460 --> 00:08:28.699 - I mean, just because I don't care how 239 00:08:28.699 --> 00:08:29.199 - good 240 00:08:29.995 --> 00:08:32.815 - a copy editor is or a development editor. 241 00:08:33.995 --> 00:08:36.174 - If what they say does not 242 00:08:36.634 --> 00:08:39.355 - work for me, I will not take that 243 00:08:39.355 --> 00:08:42.254 - advice. Yeah. I remember Michael Stackpole, 244 00:08:42.955 --> 00:08:44.730 - talk he's a fantasy writer and a big 245 00:08:44.730 --> 00:08:46.269 - one of the early Star Wars, 246 00:08:46.970 --> 00:08:48.269 - you know, novel writers, 247 00:08:48.809 --> 00:08:50.730 - saying that he got a a very prolific 248 00:08:50.730 --> 00:08:52.570 - guy. He he had a book back from 249 00:08:52.570 --> 00:08:53.549 - his editor at 250 00:08:54.409 --> 00:08:56.329 - a door, you know, a tour, one of 251 00:08:56.329 --> 00:08:57.470 - one of these big places. 252 00:08:58.004 --> 00:08:59.845 - And they had changed no. I can't remember 253 00:08:59.845 --> 00:09:01.545 - which way around it was. They either changed 254 00:09:01.605 --> 00:09:04.184 - every instance of further further 255 00:09:04.725 --> 00:09:05.705 - into farther, 256 00:09:06.325 --> 00:09:08.404 - or they changed farther into further. You know, 257 00:09:08.404 --> 00:09:10.965 - maybe 50 or 60 instances across this this 258 00:09:10.965 --> 00:09:13.304 - 150 page novel word novel, 259 00:09:13.750 --> 00:09:14.789 - 150,000 260 00:09:14.789 --> 00:09:15.449 - word novel. 261 00:09:15.909 --> 00:09:18.089 - And he just went ahead and went, reject. 262 00:09:18.149 --> 00:09:20.069 - Reject. Just changed every single one of them 263 00:09:20.069 --> 00:09:21.049 - back without discussion. 264 00:09:21.509 --> 00:09:23.269 - So he got to that point where he 265 00:09:23.269 --> 00:09:25.029 - could go, I don't care if they are 266 00:09:25.029 --> 00:09:26.629 - the editor for one of the top publishing 267 00:09:26.629 --> 00:09:27.129 - houses. 268 00:09:27.584 --> 00:09:30.225 - This word in my book is this. And 269 00:09:30.225 --> 00:09:31.824 - he just went with it. And he said, 270 00:09:31.824 --> 00:09:33.605 - nobody ever questioned it. Yeah. 271 00:09:33.985 --> 00:09:34.804 - Yeah. That 272 00:09:35.345 --> 00:09:36.964 - that that's that's that's 273 00:09:38.225 --> 00:09:40.544 - that's that's probably a topic for another, another 274 00:09:40.544 --> 00:09:42.404 - another time. Alright. So 275 00:09:43.879 --> 00:09:45.660 - it is important also 276 00:09:46.440 --> 00:09:46.940 - to, 277 00:09:47.480 --> 00:09:49.019 - you know, you want to put together 278 00:09:50.200 --> 00:09:53.000 - if you're lucky as a writer, you will 279 00:09:53.000 --> 00:09:53.660 - put together 280 00:09:54.600 --> 00:09:56.620 - a group of other writers 281 00:09:57.565 --> 00:09:58.065 - who 282 00:09:58.524 --> 00:09:59.024 - fill 283 00:10:00.284 --> 00:10:01.584 - various roles 284 00:10:02.605 --> 00:10:03.825 - in the critique process. 285 00:10:05.245 --> 00:10:06.065 - For instance, 286 00:10:07.084 --> 00:10:10.065 - for my novel, my debut novel Accidental Intelligence, 287 00:10:11.164 --> 00:10:11.664 - I 288 00:10:12.809 --> 00:10:15.289 - had Courtney, who was is the queen of 289 00:10:15.289 --> 00:10:16.429 - grammar, that woman. 290 00:10:18.409 --> 00:10:21.549 - She's a grammar goddess. She is, she is 291 00:10:22.649 --> 00:10:25.529 - unbelievably good on on grammar. I learned so 292 00:10:25.529 --> 00:10:27.595 - many things from her. And then I had 293 00:10:27.595 --> 00:10:28.095 - Dimitri, 294 00:10:28.715 --> 00:10:30.735 - who I called the king of plot. 295 00:10:31.595 --> 00:10:32.095 - He 296 00:10:32.875 --> 00:10:34.815 - sucks at grammar. Sorry, Dimitri, 297 00:10:35.915 --> 00:10:38.634 - buddy. You're you're you're not so great at 298 00:10:38.634 --> 00:10:39.855 - grammar. And, 299 00:10:41.195 --> 00:10:42.095 - but he was 300 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:44.019 - so good 301 00:10:44.399 --> 00:10:45.059 - at plot. 302 00:10:45.600 --> 00:10:46.100 - Yeah. 303 00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:46.959 - And, 304 00:10:48.320 --> 00:10:50.559 - you know, I I'm looking to to those 305 00:10:50.559 --> 00:10:53.039 - people for their strengths. I'm not looking to 306 00:10:53.039 --> 00:10:55.934 - Dimitri for development edit. I'm not looking to 307 00:10:56.014 --> 00:10:56.754 - for Dimitri 308 00:10:57.214 --> 00:10:59.235 - for a copy editor or line edit. 309 00:10:59.615 --> 00:11:00.115 - Right? 310 00:11:00.975 --> 00:11:01.714 - And, Courtney, 311 00:11:02.174 --> 00:11:02.995 - I would 312 00:11:04.574 --> 00:11:05.615 - I absolutely trusted, 313 00:11:05.934 --> 00:11:08.254 - what she had to say about, things like, 314 00:11:08.414 --> 00:11:09.235 - the development 315 00:11:10.139 --> 00:11:11.120 - edit kinds of things. 316 00:11:12.459 --> 00:11:13.980 - But the number one thing I was going 317 00:11:13.980 --> 00:11:15.600 - to her for was was grammar. 318 00:11:16.139 --> 00:11:18.559 - Right? And I was lucky to have them. 319 00:11:18.779 --> 00:11:20.799 - I was very lucky to have them. 320 00:11:21.659 --> 00:11:23.259 - And How did you how did you find 321 00:11:23.259 --> 00:11:26.235 - them? What was your process for kind of 322 00:11:26.695 --> 00:11:28.855 - both stumbling upon them, but also building that 323 00:11:28.855 --> 00:11:29.355 - relationship? 324 00:11:29.894 --> 00:11:32.535 - Alright. Well, that's that's that is okay. Great. 325 00:11:32.535 --> 00:11:33.035 - So 326 00:11:34.295 --> 00:11:36.419 - we're going back many years now 327 00:11:36.980 --> 00:11:37.480 - to, 328 00:11:38.100 --> 00:11:40.600 - to, to win the absolute riot forums. 329 00:11:41.299 --> 00:11:41.799 - We're 330 00:11:42.179 --> 00:11:43.959 - probably the biggest online 331 00:11:44.659 --> 00:11:46.980 - hangout for writers, especially writers trying to query 332 00:11:46.980 --> 00:11:49.059 - because this was, this was before self publishing 333 00:11:49.059 --> 00:11:50.279 - was really taking off. 334 00:11:56.295 --> 00:11:59.434 - I was constantly on the lookout for people 335 00:11:59.575 --> 00:12:00.075 - to, 336 00:12:01.815 --> 00:12:03.514 - that I could meet on that forum 337 00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:04.820 - that 338 00:12:05.680 --> 00:12:08.340 - basically I could talk about writing with. 339 00:12:08.800 --> 00:12:10.720 - I was always on the lookout for people 340 00:12:10.720 --> 00:12:11.940 - to work with, basically. 341 00:12:13.279 --> 00:12:14.500 - We ended up exchanging, 342 00:12:15.120 --> 00:12:15.779 - a chapter 343 00:12:17.615 --> 00:12:19.454 - and just, you know, doing doing a critique 344 00:12:19.454 --> 00:12:21.375 - of of that chapter. And that went well 345 00:12:21.375 --> 00:12:23.154 - and we continued to talk. And 346 00:12:23.855 --> 00:12:25.855 - I found I found I found her her 347 00:12:25.855 --> 00:12:27.154 - input so valuable 348 00:12:27.615 --> 00:12:30.200 - that I, you know, I I basically, 349 00:12:30.820 --> 00:12:32.279 - developed and cherished that friendship. 350 00:12:34.179 --> 00:12:37.300 - She she unfortunately isn't, doesn't have time for 351 00:12:37.300 --> 00:12:39.540 - writing right now, but she is still a 352 00:12:39.540 --> 00:12:41.399 - she's still a dear friend to this day. 353 00:12:42.019 --> 00:12:43.720 - I appreciate her greatly. Dimitri 354 00:12:44.825 --> 00:12:46.845 - was I met in World of Warcraft. 355 00:12:47.625 --> 00:12:50.205 - Oh, really? Wow. Yes. We were the cofounders 356 00:12:50.425 --> 00:12:51.565 - of our guild, 357 00:12:52.024 --> 00:12:54.524 - and that eventually imploded spectacularly, 358 00:12:55.625 --> 00:12:56.764 - and we connected, 359 00:12:57.225 --> 00:12:58.045 - years later, 360 00:13:00.750 --> 00:13:02.190 - and, because he was he was writing a 361 00:13:02.190 --> 00:13:04.750 - book. He unfortunately stopped writing that book, but 362 00:13:04.750 --> 00:13:05.809 - he was writing a book. 363 00:13:06.190 --> 00:13:08.769 - So, you know, we would meet every week. 364 00:13:09.149 --> 00:13:11.409 - We would go over, like, you know, the 365 00:13:12.115 --> 00:13:13.715 - the the the latest thousand words that we 366 00:13:13.715 --> 00:13:14.915 - had we had written. And, 367 00:13:16.995 --> 00:13:18.675 - so I you know, that that that was 368 00:13:18.675 --> 00:13:20.675 - a that started off as a friendship before 369 00:13:20.675 --> 00:13:23.154 - before it became a critique partner. Which is 370 00:13:23.154 --> 00:13:24.215 - a pretty good foundation. 371 00:13:25.199 --> 00:13:27.299 - Yeah. That kind of yeah. Partnership. Yeah. 372 00:13:28.959 --> 00:13:31.440 - I've been at a few conventions usually when 373 00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:32.799 - I'm when I've got a table and I'm 374 00:13:32.799 --> 00:13:34.899 - selling books, and I'll occasionally get 375 00:13:35.679 --> 00:13:36.179 - somebody 376 00:13:36.815 --> 00:13:39.214 - who's a budding writer, who's starting to write, 377 00:13:39.214 --> 00:13:41.214 - who's experimenting with it, who's kind of, you 378 00:13:41.214 --> 00:13:42.815 - know, fill filling in some of the cracks 379 00:13:42.815 --> 00:13:44.274 - in life with a little bit of writing. 380 00:13:44.414 --> 00:13:45.315 - And they actually 381 00:13:45.855 --> 00:13:47.774 - once or twice, they've asked, where would I 382 00:13:47.774 --> 00:13:49.534 - find other writers to kind of get together 383 00:13:49.534 --> 00:13:51.534 - with and and bounce ideas off? And for 384 00:13:51.534 --> 00:13:53.340 - me, it's a lot of what you've just 385 00:13:53.340 --> 00:13:55.019 - said is instrumental in that. It's the same 386 00:13:55.019 --> 00:13:57.500 - as, you know, if you don't have friends, 387 00:13:57.500 --> 00:14:00.299 - be one. You've gotta go and somehow get 388 00:14:00.299 --> 00:14:01.840 - involved in the world of people, 389 00:14:02.539 --> 00:14:03.039 - but 390 00:14:03.340 --> 00:14:05.259 - the the corners of that world where you're 391 00:14:05.259 --> 00:14:07.519 - likely to meet other writers. So 392 00:14:07.944 --> 00:14:10.024 - like you've just mentioned, there are so many 393 00:14:10.024 --> 00:14:11.404 - online critique groups, 394 00:14:11.944 --> 00:14:14.264 - you can go and dig around in. Usually, 395 00:14:14.264 --> 00:14:14.764 - to 396 00:14:15.384 --> 00:14:17.625 - to receive critiques, you have to give critiques. 397 00:14:17.625 --> 00:14:19.065 - You have to earn that right with a 398 00:14:19.065 --> 00:14:20.764 - lot of them, and you've gotta earn points 399 00:14:21.089 --> 00:14:22.529 - sometimes to be able to post your own 400 00:14:22.529 --> 00:14:24.329 - work, which I think is fabulous. You'll learn 401 00:14:24.329 --> 00:14:25.350 - a lot by critiquing, 402 00:14:25.730 --> 00:14:28.129 - but you're also building rapport with people that 403 00:14:28.129 --> 00:14:29.990 - you get you're going to get along with. 404 00:14:30.289 --> 00:14:32.049 - You're kinda getting to know each other through 405 00:14:32.049 --> 00:14:33.669 - that conversation that you're having. 406 00:14:34.165 --> 00:14:35.524 - Or there are, you know, like you said, 407 00:14:35.524 --> 00:14:37.924 - social groups that could be online, that could 408 00:14:37.924 --> 00:14:38.665 - be in person. 409 00:14:39.045 --> 00:14:40.804 - The the writing group and I've been in 410 00:14:40.804 --> 00:14:42.404 - several writing groups. A lot of them have 411 00:14:42.404 --> 00:14:44.404 - kind of, you know, overlapped each other, but 412 00:14:44.404 --> 00:14:46.325 - the one that was the longest, we met 413 00:14:46.325 --> 00:14:48.264 - in a in a science fiction and fantasy 414 00:14:48.325 --> 00:14:48.825 - bookshop. 415 00:14:49.589 --> 00:14:52.389 - So this bookstore had just opened here in 416 00:14:52.389 --> 00:14:52.889 - Melbourne. 417 00:14:53.669 --> 00:14:56.230 - I was chatting with the the owner one 418 00:14:56.230 --> 00:14:57.669 - day, and he was talking about getting and 419 00:14:57.669 --> 00:14:59.269 - we were talking about writing, and he was 420 00:14:59.269 --> 00:15:01.350 - talking about getting some writing groups happening. I 421 00:15:01.350 --> 00:15:03.190 - think at one stage, he had five meeting 422 00:15:03.190 --> 00:15:04.089 - in the store. 423 00:15:05.274 --> 00:15:07.514 - So we so that started from a bunch 424 00:15:07.514 --> 00:15:10.075 - of people who love science fiction, fantasy, horror 425 00:15:10.075 --> 00:15:10.575 - books, 426 00:15:11.115 --> 00:15:12.095 - also writing, 427 00:15:12.555 --> 00:15:14.735 - also coming together through that bookstore, 428 00:15:15.195 --> 00:15:16.715 - meeting in the bookstore for as long as 429 00:15:16.715 --> 00:15:17.909 - the bookstore was open. 430 00:15:18.309 --> 00:15:20.709 - And then the group surviving for about seven 431 00:15:20.709 --> 00:15:21.529 - years after 432 00:15:21.909 --> 00:15:23.370 - the bookstore sadly closed. 433 00:15:24.069 --> 00:15:25.669 - So, yeah, be being out there in the 434 00:15:25.669 --> 00:15:28.470 - world of people, one of the best critique 435 00:15:28.709 --> 00:15:31.909 - almost helpful critique partners I've I've had, particularly 436 00:15:31.909 --> 00:15:33.529 - when I was writing a lot of military 437 00:15:34.274 --> 00:15:36.615 - based stuff, particularly the zombie apocalypse, 438 00:15:37.554 --> 00:15:38.054 - books. 439 00:15:39.315 --> 00:15:39.815 - He 440 00:15:40.274 --> 00:15:40.774 - was 441 00:15:42.355 --> 00:15:45.075 - a, Navy Seal, and he was a Navy 442 00:15:45.075 --> 00:15:45.975 - Seal instructor. 443 00:15:46.559 --> 00:15:48.720 - So I didn't realize until years after we 444 00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:51.440 - we started our friendship that he was actually 445 00:15:51.440 --> 00:15:53.360 - a master chief, so he he'd gotten pretty 446 00:15:53.360 --> 00:15:55.600 - high up in the Navy SEALs. Very experienced 447 00:15:55.600 --> 00:15:58.080 - guy. Well, I was knocking around a zombie 448 00:15:58.080 --> 00:16:00.480 - forum, and he posted a request for someone 449 00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:02.394 - just to read his book. And at that 450 00:16:02.394 --> 00:16:04.235 - stage, I thought, sure. I've got a bit 451 00:16:04.235 --> 00:16:06.554 - of time to to read. Let let's have 452 00:16:06.554 --> 00:16:07.774 - a look at this guy's book. 453 00:16:08.154 --> 00:16:11.274 - I gave him some fairly honest feedback. I, 454 00:16:11.274 --> 00:16:12.475 - you know, I checked what what he was 455 00:16:12.475 --> 00:16:13.855 - looking for when he told me. 456 00:16:15.149 --> 00:16:16.990 - So most of my feedback was simply around 457 00:16:16.990 --> 00:16:18.529 - grammar and style and layout. 458 00:16:19.230 --> 00:16:21.389 - And there was a lot of feedback, unfortunately, 459 00:16:21.389 --> 00:16:22.990 - and I thought this guy's gonna hate me. 460 00:16:22.990 --> 00:16:24.350 - I didn't know anything about him. I just 461 00:16:24.350 --> 00:16:26.029 - just just read the book. He wrote back 462 00:16:26.029 --> 00:16:27.629 - to me after he received that and said, 463 00:16:27.629 --> 00:16:29.409 - thanks so much for this critique. 464 00:16:30.304 --> 00:16:32.804 - Everybody else BS's me. 465 00:16:33.264 --> 00:16:33.924 - You didn't, 466 00:16:34.304 --> 00:16:35.985 - and it means the world. So thank you. 467 00:16:35.985 --> 00:16:38.144 - Anything I can do for you? Then when 468 00:16:38.144 --> 00:16:39.904 - I found out he was a, you know, 469 00:16:39.904 --> 00:16:42.565 - a navy seal, he kinda became my military 470 00:16:42.865 --> 00:16:44.950 - consultant for a lot of stuff because what 471 00:16:44.950 --> 00:16:46.549 - the heck do I know living in Australia 472 00:16:46.549 --> 00:16:48.629 - where gun laws are tight, and we don't, 473 00:16:48.629 --> 00:16:50.629 - you know, we're we're not allowed to open 474 00:16:50.629 --> 00:16:51.830 - carry and things like that. 475 00:16:52.870 --> 00:16:54.389 - I don't know very much about those things, 476 00:16:54.389 --> 00:16:56.089 - let alone military tactics. So 477 00:16:56.389 --> 00:16:58.549 - he would read my full drafts, but only 478 00:16:58.549 --> 00:17:00.169 - with that eye. He wouldn't give me commentary 479 00:17:00.284 --> 00:17:01.985 - on grammar or things. He would just say, 480 00:17:02.365 --> 00:17:04.284 - Pete, there's no there's no, 481 00:17:04.684 --> 00:17:06.224 - safety catch on a Glock. 482 00:17:07.884 --> 00:17:09.505 - Right? Pete, this character, 483 00:17:09.884 --> 00:17:11.644 - with his military background, he would not enter 484 00:17:11.644 --> 00:17:13.085 - the building this way. He would enter it 485 00:17:13.085 --> 00:17:13.740 - this way. 486 00:17:14.460 --> 00:17:17.740 - That's that's super valuable, man. But that's an 487 00:17:17.740 --> 00:17:19.679 - example of you you know, I gave without 488 00:17:19.819 --> 00:17:21.740 - really without any expectation. I just had some 489 00:17:21.740 --> 00:17:23.019 - time to do it and thought I'll do 490 00:17:23.019 --> 00:17:24.640 - it. And this beautiful, 491 00:17:25.179 --> 00:17:27.545 - friendship, very helpful friendship. And we've, you know, 492 00:17:27.545 --> 00:17:29.305 - we've critiqued each other's books over the years 493 00:17:29.305 --> 00:17:30.045 - ever since. 494 00:17:31.384 --> 00:17:34.345 - But, yeah, very, very lucky that that happened. 495 00:17:34.345 --> 00:17:35.785 - But if I wasn't out there in the 496 00:17:35.785 --> 00:17:37.884 - world of people just trying things and, 497 00:17:38.505 --> 00:17:40.365 - you know, saying yes to things occasionally, 498 00:17:41.144 --> 00:17:42.329 - that that wouldn't have happened. 499 00:17:44.009 --> 00:17:45.069 - Yeah. To that end, 500 00:17:46.089 --> 00:17:47.929 - I I put together a serious station from 501 00:17:47.929 --> 00:17:49.149 - people I met on threads. 502 00:17:50.730 --> 00:17:52.429 - And, you know, so, 503 00:17:53.769 --> 00:17:55.929 - whatever social media place you hang out in, 504 00:17:55.929 --> 00:17:57.869 - if you are around writers, 505 00:18:00.154 --> 00:18:01.055 - talk to them 506 00:18:01.674 --> 00:18:03.375 - through the social media app. 507 00:18:06.875 --> 00:18:08.875 - If you could have a private conversation with 508 00:18:08.875 --> 00:18:09.375 - them, 509 00:18:11.434 --> 00:18:12.174 - sound out 510 00:18:14.549 --> 00:18:17.049 - how open they are to doing something. And, 511 00:18:17.909 --> 00:18:18.890 - you know, it's 512 00:18:20.069 --> 00:18:22.390 - my my point is that it 513 00:18:23.909 --> 00:18:26.329 - if you don't have a local place 514 00:18:26.964 --> 00:18:29.684 - where science fiction authors are hanging out for 515 00:18:29.684 --> 00:18:31.144 - you to meet people, 516 00:18:32.325 --> 00:18:33.224 - meet them online. 517 00:18:33.764 --> 00:18:36.004 - You you do have to put yourself out 518 00:18:36.004 --> 00:18:38.325 - there. Yeah. You do have to put yourself 519 00:18:38.325 --> 00:18:40.264 - out there. And, you know, like, so 520 00:18:40.769 --> 00:18:43.730 - what I recommend people do is to identify 521 00:18:43.730 --> 00:18:46.289 - the people that are posting things that you 522 00:18:46.289 --> 00:18:48.789 - agree with and that you find interesting. 523 00:18:49.650 --> 00:18:51.809 - And that you find interesting whether or not 524 00:18:51.809 --> 00:18:53.474 - you agree with it is even better. 525 00:18:54.434 --> 00:18:54.934 - Right? 526 00:18:55.554 --> 00:18:56.054 - And, 527 00:18:57.075 --> 00:18:58.994 - you know, if if if if you play 528 00:18:58.994 --> 00:19:00.694 - the the the the the patient 529 00:19:01.234 --> 00:19:03.794 - the patient game where where you're not trying 530 00:19:03.794 --> 00:19:06.294 - to to to to to rush things, 531 00:19:06.950 --> 00:19:08.730 - you could probably meet people 532 00:19:09.269 --> 00:19:09.769 - that 533 00:19:10.869 --> 00:19:12.490 - you can talk about writing with. 534 00:19:13.109 --> 00:19:14.730 - And some of those people 535 00:19:15.430 --> 00:19:16.890 - might become critique partners. 536 00:19:17.430 --> 00:19:17.930 - And 537 00:19:18.309 --> 00:19:20.170 - some of those people 538 00:19:20.654 --> 00:19:21.394 - might stick 539 00:19:21.934 --> 00:19:22.434 - around. 540 00:19:23.535 --> 00:19:25.234 - Yeah. Even if you're an introvert. 541 00:19:25.934 --> 00:19:27.475 - Even if you're an introvert. Yeah. 542 00:19:27.934 --> 00:19:30.015 - Because us introverts do tend to like talking 543 00:19:30.015 --> 00:19:32.255 - about stuff we're interested in. Yeah. And we 544 00:19:32.255 --> 00:19:34.529 - could be very, very garrulous and have a 545 00:19:34.529 --> 00:19:36.009 - great time doing that. So why not? That's 546 00:19:36.009 --> 00:19:37.190 - a that's great advice. 547 00:19:37.730 --> 00:19:38.630 - And that becomes 548 00:19:39.329 --> 00:19:41.650 - a case of if you can't excuse me. 549 00:19:41.650 --> 00:19:42.710 - Coughing a lot today. 550 00:19:43.169 --> 00:19:45.329 - If you can't find a group of people 551 00:19:45.490 --> 00:19:46.769 - you know, if you can't find a critique 552 00:19:46.769 --> 00:19:48.434 - group, make a critique group. Launch a critique 553 00:19:48.755 --> 00:19:50.295 - Gather a critique group. 554 00:19:50.595 --> 00:19:51.955 - I would just say if you're gonna start 555 00:19:51.955 --> 00:19:53.875 - thinking along that line, just do it carefully 556 00:19:53.875 --> 00:19:55.575 - as Brian's been saying. You know? 557 00:19:56.035 --> 00:19:56.934 - Test the waters. 558 00:19:57.634 --> 00:19:58.615 - Test the friendship. 559 00:19:59.475 --> 00:20:01.015 - I love the idea of 560 00:20:01.315 --> 00:20:03.555 - building relationship with people who don't always agree 561 00:20:03.555 --> 00:20:05.920 - with you. We're we're we live in such 562 00:20:06.220 --> 00:20:06.880 - a bubbly 563 00:20:07.339 --> 00:20:07.820 - world 564 00:20:08.299 --> 00:20:09.900 - Yeah. Now where we we share the same 565 00:20:09.900 --> 00:20:12.400 - political views, the same whatever, cultural views, 566 00:20:12.940 --> 00:20:14.779 - the same views on Doctor Who, whatever it 567 00:20:14.779 --> 00:20:15.279 - is. 568 00:20:15.740 --> 00:20:16.400 - We need 569 00:20:17.054 --> 00:20:19.054 - we need other opinions and other ways of 570 00:20:19.054 --> 00:20:19.954 - looking at things. 571 00:20:20.494 --> 00:20:20.994 - But, 572 00:20:21.375 --> 00:20:23.154 - yeah, build build that network, 573 00:20:23.454 --> 00:20:25.615 - but build it carefully, build it wisely, build 574 00:20:25.615 --> 00:20:26.274 - it thoughtfully, 575 00:20:26.974 --> 00:20:29.134 - and build those relationships in such a way 576 00:20:29.134 --> 00:20:30.514 - as if it 577 00:20:31.090 --> 00:20:33.250 - if it's not working, you can back out 578 00:20:33.250 --> 00:20:35.110 - of it easily without anybody getting 579 00:20:35.490 --> 00:20:36.710 - their feelings hurt, 580 00:20:37.809 --> 00:20:40.369 - too. So not just rushing straight into meeting 581 00:20:40.369 --> 00:20:41.970 - someone and saying, great. Would you like to 582 00:20:41.970 --> 00:20:45.085 - be my critique partner? Yeah. But That that's 583 00:20:45.085 --> 00:20:46.944 - not going to end well. No. 584 00:20:48.045 --> 00:20:48.944 - Not at all. 585 00:20:49.244 --> 00:20:51.164 - Nope. It's not. And if, 586 00:20:53.244 --> 00:20:55.005 - like so I I'm I'm thinking about I'm 587 00:20:55.005 --> 00:20:56.605 - thinking about the person who's might be listening 588 00:20:56.605 --> 00:20:58.049 - to us talk about this, right? Here, we're, 589 00:20:58.049 --> 00:20:59.970 - you know, we're blithely saying, Go ahead and 590 00:20:59.970 --> 00:21:01.750 - meet people. You know, just do things. 591 00:21:02.529 --> 00:21:04.609 - Apparently, for you and I, that's actually fairly 592 00:21:04.609 --> 00:21:06.069 - easy. Yeah. Right? 593 00:21:06.929 --> 00:21:09.105 - So for someone for whom that is not 594 00:21:09.585 --> 00:21:10.085 - easy, 595 00:21:11.184 --> 00:21:11.684 - understand 596 00:21:12.304 --> 00:21:13.845 - that you're going to fail 597 00:21:14.144 --> 00:21:15.285 - some at least. 598 00:21:15.744 --> 00:21:17.585 - You're going to meet the wrong person. You're 599 00:21:17.585 --> 00:21:19.025 - going to meet you're going to meet the 600 00:21:19.025 --> 00:21:19.984 - person who, 601 00:21:20.544 --> 00:21:22.565 - who can't give feedback 602 00:21:23.309 --> 00:21:23.809 - kindly. 603 00:21:24.509 --> 00:21:27.329 - Yeah. You're going to meet the person who, 604 00:21:28.509 --> 00:21:29.009 - can't 605 00:21:29.710 --> 00:21:30.450 - be mean 606 00:21:31.470 --> 00:21:33.730 - or what they perceive as mean, and that 607 00:21:33.950 --> 00:21:34.450 - person 608 00:21:35.644 --> 00:21:37.424 - is not worth much to you 609 00:21:37.964 --> 00:21:39.744 - as as a critique partner. 610 00:21:40.605 --> 00:21:41.184 - You know, 611 00:21:41.724 --> 00:21:43.404 - critique partners have to be honest with each 612 00:21:43.404 --> 00:21:45.825 - other, but you're going to meet people who, 613 00:21:47.819 --> 00:21:48.319 - who 614 00:21:48.619 --> 00:21:50.539 - have issues. You're going to meet people who 615 00:21:50.539 --> 00:21:51.039 - don't 616 00:21:51.420 --> 00:21:52.799 - jive with you. 617 00:21:54.779 --> 00:21:55.920 - That's going to happen. 618 00:21:58.779 --> 00:22:00.904 - If you're someone who has a 619 00:22:01.285 --> 00:22:02.825 - difficulty meeting people, 620 00:22:04.164 --> 00:22:04.904 - just understand 621 00:22:05.365 --> 00:22:07.384 - that it will take some trial and error. 622 00:22:07.845 --> 00:22:08.345 - Yeah. 623 00:22:08.644 --> 00:22:11.625 - But then when you find that first person 624 00:22:13.605 --> 00:22:14.759 - that gels with you, 625 00:22:16.920 --> 00:22:18.220 - Cherish that friendship. 626 00:22:19.400 --> 00:22:20.920 - Mhmm. You know, and and and build it, 627 00:22:20.920 --> 00:22:22.940 - and make sure you're there for them too. 628 00:22:24.519 --> 00:22:26.059 - Yeah. Right? You you, 629 00:22:26.994 --> 00:22:28.835 - so I know we we said, I forget 630 00:22:28.835 --> 00:22:30.034 - which episode it was, but it was one 631 00:22:30.034 --> 00:22:31.174 - of the first four episodes 632 00:22:31.474 --> 00:22:33.734 - where I said that I've learned 633 00:22:36.674 --> 00:22:38.615 - at least as much probably more 634 00:22:39.410 --> 00:22:42.130 - from critiquing other people than I've learned from 635 00:22:42.130 --> 00:22:43.509 - having people critique me. 636 00:22:45.009 --> 00:22:45.509 - Right? 637 00:22:47.490 --> 00:22:47.990 - So 638 00:22:49.730 --> 00:22:51.429 - I look at that obligation 639 00:22:52.210 --> 00:22:53.589 - to critique someone else 640 00:22:54.345 --> 00:22:55.944 - as an opportunity. I don't look at it 641 00:22:55.944 --> 00:22:58.424 - as an as an obligation. It's it's like, 642 00:22:58.424 --> 00:23:00.684 - oh, goody. I get to critique someone else. 643 00:23:01.625 --> 00:23:02.125 - That's 644 00:23:03.065 --> 00:23:04.845 - that's going to help me so much. 645 00:23:05.224 --> 00:23:06.825 - Yep. Some of the beauty of it is 646 00:23:06.825 --> 00:23:08.684 - not just seeing, like, learning. 647 00:23:09.380 --> 00:23:10.519 - Oh, I do that. 648 00:23:10.980 --> 00:23:12.820 - Whoops. You know, what I'm picking on in 649 00:23:12.820 --> 00:23:15.140 - their writing, oh, I've actually been guilty of 650 00:23:15.140 --> 00:23:16.980 - that myself. That that's that can be part 651 00:23:16.980 --> 00:23:18.900 - of it. But it could also be, oh, 652 00:23:18.900 --> 00:23:20.279 - I see how they've 653 00:23:20.980 --> 00:23:22.820 - nailed it in this chapter or this scene 654 00:23:22.820 --> 00:23:23.720 - or this paragraph. 655 00:23:24.744 --> 00:23:26.664 - I can actually see the technique behind what 656 00:23:26.664 --> 00:23:27.964 - they did. That is brilliant. 657 00:23:28.585 --> 00:23:31.065 - I can not copy it, not plagiarize, but 658 00:23:31.065 --> 00:23:32.125 - I can use that, 659 00:23:33.065 --> 00:23:35.704 - approach or that skill, and I can develop 660 00:23:35.704 --> 00:23:36.444 - that myself. 661 00:23:37.359 --> 00:23:39.279 - So it's both. It's kinda learning from what 662 00:23:39.279 --> 00:23:41.759 - you think, oh, that doesn't work, but also 663 00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:43.359 - what does work in their writing and and 664 00:23:43.359 --> 00:23:46.720 - really having that moment. Yeah. Yeah. And that 665 00:23:46.720 --> 00:23:47.539 - can especially 666 00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:48.740 - come out 667 00:23:49.355 --> 00:23:51.115 - when you've got a critique partner that can 668 00:23:51.115 --> 00:23:52.394 - actually go back and forth with you. So 669 00:23:52.394 --> 00:23:53.695 - what I mean by that is, 670 00:23:55.115 --> 00:23:56.734 - you give me a thousand pages. 671 00:23:57.595 --> 00:23:58.734 - Sorry. A thousand pages. 672 00:23:59.755 --> 00:24:01.134 - You give me a thousand words. 673 00:24:02.200 --> 00:24:03.799 - I do my line by line edit. That's 674 00:24:03.799 --> 00:24:05.500 - what I'm best at, as I've said before. 675 00:24:06.840 --> 00:24:07.340 - Then 676 00:24:07.720 --> 00:24:08.220 - you 677 00:24:08.920 --> 00:24:10.619 - take my line by line edit. 678 00:24:11.400 --> 00:24:11.900 - You 679 00:24:12.680 --> 00:24:14.220 - go through and make whatever changes 680 00:24:14.920 --> 00:24:17.000 - whichever of the suggested changes that I've made 681 00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:18.015 - that you want to make, 682 00:24:19.055 --> 00:24:21.634 - and then we talk about it. That 683 00:24:23.055 --> 00:24:26.015 - that is extra extra extra valuable to me. 684 00:24:26.015 --> 00:24:29.134 - Now, that's not something that every every critique 685 00:24:29.134 --> 00:24:30.240 - partner will be able to do. 686 00:24:31.039 --> 00:24:32.579 - That because that 687 00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:35.140 - that multiplies the time involved 688 00:24:35.759 --> 00:24:38.339 - by probably two extra three x because, 689 00:24:39.519 --> 00:24:43.119 - the the the the the discussing the discussing 690 00:24:43.119 --> 00:24:44.660 - your notes process always 691 00:24:45.315 --> 00:24:47.255 - always takes longer than even making the notes. 692 00:24:47.794 --> 00:24:49.315 - Right? And it takes longer than you think 693 00:24:49.315 --> 00:24:49.894 - it will. 694 00:24:50.355 --> 00:24:52.194 - It does. Yeah. The more people you add 695 00:24:52.194 --> 00:24:55.174 - to the conversation to. Yes. Yeah. So 696 00:24:58.690 --> 00:25:01.009 - if you find someone that will do that 697 00:25:01.009 --> 00:25:01.750 - with you, 698 00:25:03.490 --> 00:25:04.710 - that, again, is 699 00:25:05.089 --> 00:25:05.990 - super valuable, 700 00:25:06.529 --> 00:25:07.589 - to me as a writer. 701 00:25:07.970 --> 00:25:08.470 - Yeah. 702 00:25:08.944 --> 00:25:10.545 - And this is part of building that friendship 703 00:25:10.545 --> 00:25:12.304 - and that relationship and getting to know them 704 00:25:12.304 --> 00:25:12.804 - over 705 00:25:13.184 --> 00:25:14.884 - years. We're often in a hurry 706 00:25:15.424 --> 00:25:17.505 - to publish. We're in a hurry to submit 707 00:25:17.505 --> 00:25:19.184 - things. We're in a hurry to just get 708 00:25:19.184 --> 00:25:20.384 - that off our plate and move on to 709 00:25:20.384 --> 00:25:22.005 - the next project. So 710 00:25:22.740 --> 00:25:24.660 - we'll go quickly quickly quickly. Give me some 711 00:25:24.660 --> 00:25:26.019 - advice so I can polish this up and 712 00:25:26.019 --> 00:25:27.000 - get it out there. 713 00:25:27.700 --> 00:25:28.200 - But 714 00:25:28.500 --> 00:25:30.519 - not being in a hurry to do that, 715 00:25:30.740 --> 00:25:32.420 - like you said, toing and froing on things 716 00:25:32.420 --> 00:25:34.579 - and then doing that over years, over two, 717 00:25:34.579 --> 00:25:35.960 - three, four, ten years, 718 00:25:38.234 --> 00:25:40.075 - you then get to know who you can 719 00:25:40.075 --> 00:25:42.555 - go to with certain things, and you start 720 00:25:42.555 --> 00:25:43.195 - to develop, 721 00:25:43.674 --> 00:25:46.474 - shorthand in your conversation with each other. I 722 00:25:46.474 --> 00:25:48.815 - know you've said you were telling me about 723 00:25:49.035 --> 00:25:50.795 - you were line editing someone's work, and you 724 00:25:50.795 --> 00:25:53.039 - kind of had a a little shortcut phrase 725 00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:54.400 - that you would put in the comments next 726 00:25:54.400 --> 00:25:55.919 - to it. Can you remind me what that 727 00:25:55.919 --> 00:25:56.419 - was? 728 00:25:56.720 --> 00:25:57.679 - It's the, 729 00:25:59.359 --> 00:26:01.200 - there were two that I started doing with 730 00:26:01.200 --> 00:26:03.279 - Nick in particular. Yeah. He would do a 731 00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:03.779 - thing, 732 00:26:04.515 --> 00:26:05.815 - and I hated that thing. 733 00:26:06.674 --> 00:26:08.755 - And I think it was the second the 734 00:26:08.755 --> 00:26:10.535 - second book in the series, 735 00:26:10.994 --> 00:26:12.055 - I started going, 736 00:26:12.515 --> 00:26:13.015 - grr. 737 00:26:14.595 --> 00:26:17.575 - That's it. Yeah. And each instance of grr 738 00:26:17.715 --> 00:26:18.615 - became longer. 739 00:26:20.190 --> 00:26:21.630 - So by the end of the book, it 740 00:26:21.630 --> 00:26:21.950 - was like 741 00:26:23.630 --> 00:26:24.130 - and, 742 00:26:24.990 --> 00:26:27.789 - the the the next book had almost no 743 00:26:27.789 --> 00:26:28.849 - instances of that. 744 00:26:29.630 --> 00:26:31.710 - Uh-huh. So I learned from it. Yeah. Yes. 745 00:26:32.029 --> 00:26:33.970 - The victory is mine, so I'll take it. 746 00:26:34.774 --> 00:26:36.375 - And then and then my my other thing 747 00:26:36.375 --> 00:26:38.075 - is, is is nicks. 748 00:26:38.934 --> 00:26:39.434 - So 749 00:26:39.734 --> 00:26:42.315 - yeah. So if like, I've I've I've 750 00:26:43.014 --> 00:26:43.575 - I've got a, 751 00:26:44.534 --> 00:26:47.190 - I would nicks this. I'd nicks this. That 752 00:26:47.190 --> 00:26:49.909 - means that, yeah, that that that I think 753 00:26:49.909 --> 00:26:51.429 - you should do this, but that's still my 754 00:26:51.429 --> 00:26:51.929 - preference. 755 00:26:52.470 --> 00:26:54.250 - Or you should nix this 756 00:26:55.190 --> 00:26:57.690 - or you consider nixing this 757 00:26:58.470 --> 00:27:00.545 - and then nix. Yeah. 758 00:27:01.005 --> 00:27:01.904 - Which is like, 759 00:27:02.205 --> 00:27:04.445 - You have to delete this. This should not 760 00:27:04.445 --> 00:27:06.305 - be here, and I will Brooke 761 00:27:07.164 --> 00:27:07.744 - Brooke, no 762 00:27:08.205 --> 00:27:09.505 - discussion on the matter whatsoever. 763 00:27:11.005 --> 00:27:11.505 - I 764 00:27:13.309 --> 00:27:14.369 - frankly dubbed myself, 765 00:27:15.070 --> 00:27:17.490 - this, but, I call myself Captain Nix. 766 00:27:17.789 --> 00:27:19.869 - Captain Nix. I like it. Captain Nix. Yeah. 767 00:27:19.869 --> 00:27:21.470 - Alright. So I'll get ready for that when 768 00:27:21.470 --> 00:27:23.390 - you're critiquing my work. I, 769 00:27:23.950 --> 00:27:25.070 - I too look at diff 770 00:27:25.950 --> 00:27:28.049 - at communicating different this is probably 771 00:27:28.644 --> 00:27:30.325 - to do with the etiquette of critiquing as 772 00:27:30.325 --> 00:27:30.964 - well. But, 773 00:27:31.285 --> 00:27:32.345 - you know, I was editing, 774 00:27:33.204 --> 00:27:35.924 - a a younger or less experienced writer who's 775 00:27:35.924 --> 00:27:36.904 - who's a great writer, 776 00:27:37.285 --> 00:27:38.664 - less experienced who 777 00:27:39.045 --> 00:27:41.285 - last year, who was writing something that was 778 00:27:41.285 --> 00:27:43.065 - their first step into that genre. 779 00:27:43.410 --> 00:27:45.970 - And so I was editing their their fairly 780 00:27:45.970 --> 00:27:46.710 - short book, 781 00:27:47.410 --> 00:27:47.910 - because, 782 00:27:48.450 --> 00:27:50.369 - you know, we've we've kind of known each 783 00:27:50.369 --> 00:27:52.450 - other around conventions for a while, but we 784 00:27:52.450 --> 00:27:53.970 - don't really know each other that well. So 785 00:27:53.970 --> 00:27:55.650 - I was very careful in the feedback I 786 00:27:55.650 --> 00:27:57.269 - was giving as I was going through. 787 00:27:57.684 --> 00:27:58.984 - You know, there was no. 788 00:27:59.525 --> 00:28:00.664 - There was no just 789 00:28:01.125 --> 00:28:02.805 - meh. There was none of that kind of 790 00:28:02.805 --> 00:28:03.785 - stuff. It was 791 00:28:04.964 --> 00:28:06.345 - this sentence is 792 00:28:06.884 --> 00:28:08.805 - landing like this. This is how I'm taking 793 00:28:08.805 --> 00:28:09.305 - it. 794 00:28:09.619 --> 00:28:11.059 - Have a think about so it was actually 795 00:28:11.059 --> 00:28:12.259 - a lot of work. There's a lot of 796 00:28:12.259 --> 00:28:14.340 - feedback to give them, but that was important 797 00:28:14.340 --> 00:28:16.420 - because I didn't want I didn't want to 798 00:28:16.420 --> 00:28:18.580 - be rude, and I wanted them to understand 799 00:28:18.580 --> 00:28:19.700 - what I was saying and why I was 800 00:28:19.700 --> 00:28:21.080 - saying it. Whereas 801 00:28:21.619 --> 00:28:23.654 - very quickly off the bat back of that, 802 00:28:23.654 --> 00:28:25.495 - that main kind of novel buddy that I 803 00:28:25.495 --> 00:28:27.835 - was mentioning, I I I read a novel, 804 00:28:28.295 --> 00:28:30.215 - of his about the same length more as 805 00:28:30.215 --> 00:28:31.755 - a beta reader, more as a critiquer 806 00:28:32.295 --> 00:28:34.134 - off the back of that. And I found 807 00:28:34.134 --> 00:28:36.615 - myself simply going you know, highlighting something and 808 00:28:36.615 --> 00:28:38.715 - putting in the comments next to it, meh. 809 00:28:40.119 --> 00:28:40.619 - Yes. 810 00:28:41.320 --> 00:28:43.799 - Echo, see above, you know, a bit of 811 00:28:43.799 --> 00:28:45.640 - highlighting, two paragraphs above it. You know, you've 812 00:28:45.640 --> 00:28:47.559 - already said this or you keep using the 813 00:28:47.559 --> 00:28:48.680 - same word. Yeah. 814 00:28:49.079 --> 00:28:50.059 - He will often 815 00:28:50.759 --> 00:28:52.940 - just highlight something in my work and say, 816 00:28:53.160 --> 00:28:54.059 - on the nose. 817 00:28:55.445 --> 00:28:57.125 - Right? So if that was a complete stranger 818 00:28:57.125 --> 00:28:58.884 - writing that to me, I would be pretty 819 00:28:58.884 --> 00:28:59.384 - offended 820 00:28:59.684 --> 00:29:01.365 - if they said on the nose. With him, 821 00:29:01.365 --> 00:29:01.945 - I'm like, 822 00:29:02.484 --> 00:29:05.365 - no worries. Yep. Gotcha. Fair enough. Yeah. That's 823 00:29:05.365 --> 00:29:06.825 - fair. So I I 824 00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:09.539 - I want to essentially restructure 825 00:29:09.839 --> 00:29:10.899 - what you just said. 826 00:29:11.839 --> 00:29:13.619 - When you're starting off with someone, 827 00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:16.179 - be thoughtful 828 00:29:16.559 --> 00:29:17.380 - and kind 829 00:29:18.079 --> 00:29:18.579 - and 830 00:29:19.119 --> 00:29:19.619 - tend 831 00:29:20.255 --> 00:29:21.075 - tend towards 832 00:29:22.894 --> 00:29:25.795 - saying more than you might need to. Yeah. 833 00:29:26.015 --> 00:29:28.355 - But be be, you know, 834 00:29:30.495 --> 00:29:32.575 - especially if it's someone that you don't know 835 00:29:32.575 --> 00:29:33.795 - well at all. 836 00:29:34.750 --> 00:29:35.250 - Because 837 00:29:36.349 --> 00:29:38.849 - chasing off someone who might 838 00:29:39.710 --> 00:29:40.210 - become 839 00:29:41.150 --> 00:29:44.289 - a great critique partner, maybe a great writer 840 00:29:45.869 --> 00:29:48.609 - because you're too much of a dick 841 00:29:49.775 --> 00:29:50.994 - just right off the bat, 842 00:29:51.295 --> 00:29:53.634 - that no one benefits from that. 843 00:29:55.855 --> 00:29:57.054 - No one benefits from that. I mean, at 844 00:29:57.054 --> 00:29:57.795 - the same time, 845 00:30:00.335 --> 00:30:02.575 - my whole Brian Lite, the medium Brian or 846 00:30:02.575 --> 00:30:03.795 - the full Brian, right? 847 00:30:06.450 --> 00:30:07.509 - I don't think 848 00:30:08.369 --> 00:30:10.070 - I'm a dick with the full Brian. 849 00:30:10.529 --> 00:30:12.549 - It's possible some people would think that, though. 850 00:30:13.090 --> 00:30:15.250 - Well, again, that that's a matter for where 851 00:30:15.250 --> 00:30:17.490 - the relationship's at, isn't it? Where the rapport 852 00:30:17.490 --> 00:30:19.830 - is and the communication is. Yeah. 853 00:30:20.465 --> 00:30:22.305 - So if if you don't have that kind 854 00:30:22.305 --> 00:30:24.625 - of rapport where you can be blunt and 855 00:30:24.625 --> 00:30:25.445 - say, grrr, 856 00:30:26.625 --> 00:30:28.785 - or this is really annoying me, that's something 857 00:30:28.785 --> 00:30:30.705 - that I'll occasionally say to somebody I know 858 00:30:30.705 --> 00:30:32.865 - well. You know? This is the third time 859 00:30:32.865 --> 00:30:34.919 - this happened. This is really annoying me. But 860 00:30:34.919 --> 00:30:36.679 - even then, I'll usually put a little smiley 861 00:30:36.679 --> 00:30:37.179 - face 862 00:30:38.119 --> 00:30:40.220 - just to show them I'm not really angry. 863 00:30:40.279 --> 00:30:41.960 - You know? Yeah. Because I because I always 864 00:30:41.960 --> 00:30:43.179 - feel like I wanna lean 865 00:30:43.720 --> 00:30:45.259 - more on the side of being 866 00:30:45.799 --> 00:30:47.055 - being kind about it. 867 00:30:48.414 --> 00:30:51.134 - Yeah. Yeah. I I do too. I do 868 00:30:51.134 --> 00:30:53.455 - too. I I I believe very strongly in 869 00:30:53.455 --> 00:30:55.475 - the port in the importance of being kind, 870 00:30:56.575 --> 00:30:58.335 - you know, in as many aspects of life 871 00:30:58.335 --> 00:30:59.955 - as as as we can be. 872 00:31:00.414 --> 00:31:02.115 - But if it's someone 873 00:31:02.789 --> 00:31:05.289 - if it's someone who's a serious writer, 874 00:31:05.750 --> 00:31:08.630 - like basically, the more serious you are about 875 00:31:08.630 --> 00:31:09.369 - your craft, 876 00:31:10.630 --> 00:31:13.350 - the less inclined I am to to dance 877 00:31:13.350 --> 00:31:14.170 - around anything. 878 00:31:16.085 --> 00:31:18.024 - That's a fair call. Yeah, I agree. 879 00:31:20.644 --> 00:31:21.304 - I hope 880 00:31:21.764 --> 00:31:22.984 - that any relationship 881 00:31:23.764 --> 00:31:25.464 - well, I'll say it this way. 882 00:31:26.164 --> 00:31:27.944 - What I suspect is that 883 00:31:28.690 --> 00:31:29.509 - any relationship 884 00:31:30.769 --> 00:31:31.750 - that persists 885 00:31:32.049 --> 00:31:34.549 - any writing relationship that persists with me 886 00:31:34.850 --> 00:31:37.250 - is probably going to be a relationship where 887 00:31:37.250 --> 00:31:38.549 - we can be, you know, 888 00:31:39.170 --> 00:31:41.250 - just straight up and and and not beat 889 00:31:41.250 --> 00:31:42.704 - around the bush with each other. 890 00:31:43.585 --> 00:31:45.265 - And in in my life, I think the 891 00:31:45.265 --> 00:31:48.384 - relationship with James Jackson, that former Navy Seal, 892 00:31:48.384 --> 00:31:50.944 - is proof of of that. But, you know, 893 00:31:50.944 --> 00:31:51.444 - obviously, 894 00:31:52.544 --> 00:31:54.625 - whatever I wrote and whatever I changed and 895 00:31:54.625 --> 00:31:56.304 - whatever I suggested and I was I was 896 00:31:56.304 --> 00:31:58.579 - pretty pretty blunt and honest about things. Well, 897 00:31:58.579 --> 00:32:00.039 - I I think I would have been polite. 898 00:32:00.819 --> 00:32:03.000 - It was exactly what he wanted. He was 899 00:32:03.460 --> 00:32:05.779 - re and that forged the basis for a 900 00:32:05.779 --> 00:32:07.940 - great relationship. So he felt free then to 901 00:32:07.940 --> 00:32:08.440 - go, 902 00:32:09.299 --> 00:32:10.035 - Pete, nope. 903 00:32:10.595 --> 00:32:12.215 - Cara just not gonna do this. 904 00:32:13.634 --> 00:32:15.795 - Go and watch this video or, you know, 905 00:32:15.795 --> 00:32:18.035 - have a think about this. So valuable, man. 906 00:32:18.035 --> 00:32:19.894 - Really great. Yeah. I'm super jealous. 907 00:32:20.515 --> 00:32:22.595 - I'm super jealous. Alright. So one one last 908 00:32:22.595 --> 00:32:23.494 - question for you. 909 00:32:26.650 --> 00:32:28.890 - Let's talk about how many critique partners we 910 00:32:28.890 --> 00:32:29.869 - should probably have. 911 00:32:32.009 --> 00:32:32.669 - Good question. 912 00:32:35.289 --> 00:32:36.109 - To be honest, 913 00:32:37.244 --> 00:32:38.845 - at the moment, I'm kinda happy with a 914 00:32:38.845 --> 00:32:41.964 - small number. Yeah. Yeah. I'd I'd like a 915 00:32:41.964 --> 00:32:43.565 - small number too. Yeah. And and I think, 916 00:32:43.565 --> 00:32:45.964 - you know, having written in various contexts, and 917 00:32:45.964 --> 00:32:47.025 - you have too for 918 00:32:47.565 --> 00:32:49.980 - for thirty years, really, but mainly twenty years, 919 00:32:50.539 --> 00:32:52.880 - I'm confident enough in what I'm doing 920 00:32:53.339 --> 00:32:54.460 - that I can pick up a lot of 921 00:32:54.460 --> 00:32:55.900 - my own problems so I can kinda narrow 922 00:32:55.900 --> 00:32:57.359 - it down to what I need. 923 00:32:57.980 --> 00:33:00.859 - So for for Ian, my novel buddy, I'll 924 00:33:00.859 --> 00:33:03.099 - often say, tell me where the character tell 925 00:33:03.099 --> 00:33:04.700 - me where things are popping. Tell me where 926 00:33:04.700 --> 00:33:06.394 - they are popping, so where it's really working 927 00:33:06.394 --> 00:33:07.694 - or it's really not working. 928 00:33:07.994 --> 00:33:09.775 - Tell me where the characters aren't distinct. 929 00:33:10.634 --> 00:33:12.974 - If there's anything that's that you think 930 00:33:14.394 --> 00:33:16.714 - it's losing the the audience's interest in terms 931 00:33:16.714 --> 00:33:18.079 - of plot, in terms 932 00:33:18.539 --> 00:33:19.359 - of scene. So, 933 00:33:19.740 --> 00:33:21.259 - you know and then if you see any 934 00:33:21.259 --> 00:33:21.759 - gotchas, 935 00:33:22.140 --> 00:33:24.720 - which is just, you know, the the 936 00:33:25.179 --> 00:33:27.659 - or massive spelling mistakes, you know, the wrong 937 00:33:27.659 --> 00:33:28.159 - there 938 00:33:28.460 --> 00:33:30.220 - or whatever it is. Mhmm. Sure. Go ahead. 939 00:33:30.220 --> 00:33:31.579 - But these are the main things I need 940 00:33:31.579 --> 00:33:32.799 - from from you, buddy. 941 00:33:34.115 --> 00:33:36.134 - That's kinda where I'm at the moment. So 942 00:33:36.674 --> 00:33:37.174 - then 943 00:33:37.474 --> 00:33:39.075 - I might have someone so I've got another 944 00:33:39.075 --> 00:33:40.674 - friend that I'll go to for proofreading, and 945 00:33:40.674 --> 00:33:42.914 - that's all he does. He's just proofreading because 946 00:33:42.914 --> 00:33:45.240 - he's an absolute master at it. Better than 947 00:33:45.559 --> 00:33:47.319 - any of the proofreaders that I've paid big 948 00:33:47.319 --> 00:33:49.160 - money for, the ones that belong to big 949 00:33:49.160 --> 00:33:51.339 - big groups. I'm just really lucky to have 950 00:33:51.640 --> 00:33:53.960 - stumbled apart built this friendship over a long 951 00:33:53.960 --> 00:33:54.460 - time. 952 00:33:55.400 --> 00:33:57.559 - Back in the early days, though, I think 953 00:33:57.559 --> 00:33:58.940 - I benefited from 954 00:33:59.400 --> 00:34:01.099 - a massive amount of 955 00:34:02.015 --> 00:34:04.174 - input from a a large group of people, 956 00:34:04.494 --> 00:34:05.954 - a wide range of people, 957 00:34:06.255 --> 00:34:08.034 - most of whom didn't know each other, 958 00:34:08.494 --> 00:34:10.355 - so they couldn't influence each other. 959 00:34:10.974 --> 00:34:13.054 - Yes. It was annoying when I might have 960 00:34:13.054 --> 00:34:13.795 - six different 961 00:34:14.340 --> 00:34:16.300 - opinions on a scene that I'd submitted or 962 00:34:16.300 --> 00:34:18.039 - a short story that I'd worked on, 963 00:34:18.739 --> 00:34:19.239 - but 964 00:34:19.700 --> 00:34:21.019 - it was all I don't know. It was 965 00:34:21.019 --> 00:34:22.820 - a lot more information for me to kind 966 00:34:22.820 --> 00:34:23.320 - of 967 00:34:23.700 --> 00:34:25.300 - it was grist for the mill. You know? 968 00:34:25.300 --> 00:34:26.820 - It got me thinking in lots of different 969 00:34:26.820 --> 00:34:27.320 - directions. 970 00:34:28.525 --> 00:34:29.965 - So for me, yeah, I I think I 971 00:34:29.965 --> 00:34:32.764 - kinda started with that big fishing fishing pond 972 00:34:32.764 --> 00:34:34.284 - of full full of big fish and then 973 00:34:34.284 --> 00:34:35.485 - narrowed it down to the ones that I 974 00:34:35.485 --> 00:34:36.704 - know that I really need. 975 00:34:37.965 --> 00:34:39.985 - That's me. What what about you? 976 00:34:41.390 --> 00:34:43.950 - Well, I I definitely started off with with, 977 00:34:44.750 --> 00:34:46.590 - there were a lot of people there were 978 00:34:46.590 --> 00:34:48.610 - a lot of people that I didn't know 979 00:34:49.630 --> 00:34:51.570 - that were that I was reaching out to 980 00:34:51.950 --> 00:34:54.030 - back, you know, when when I was especially 981 00:34:54.030 --> 00:34:56.130 - when I was first putting together the 982 00:34:56.875 --> 00:34:58.875 - the the first and and major second draft 983 00:34:58.875 --> 00:35:00.575 - of, of Accidental Intelligence, 984 00:35:01.434 --> 00:35:02.894 - which, you know, is right there. 985 00:35:03.355 --> 00:35:05.595 - Yeah. Which I'm reading at the moment. It's 986 00:35:05.595 --> 00:35:07.914 - a great book. Oh, thanks. Yeah. Thank you 987 00:35:07.914 --> 00:35:09.114 - very much. That's very I knew you went 988 00:35:09.114 --> 00:35:10.608 - fishing for that, but you reached out to 989 00:35:10.608 --> 00:35:12.079 - a lot of people, you said? Yeah. 990 00:35:14.320 --> 00:35:15.059 - And really, 991 00:35:15.680 --> 00:35:17.059 - there were three people 992 00:35:18.400 --> 00:35:18.900 - that 993 00:35:21.519 --> 00:35:24.160 - there there were three writers in particular who 994 00:35:24.160 --> 00:35:24.660 - who 995 00:35:25.445 --> 00:35:26.744 - gave me the most feedback 996 00:35:27.204 --> 00:35:28.744 - by the time I finished that book. 997 00:35:29.684 --> 00:35:30.905 - I would say 998 00:35:32.565 --> 00:35:34.105 - that generally speaking 999 00:35:34.965 --> 00:35:35.784 - as a writer, 1000 00:35:36.804 --> 00:35:39.445 - I would want a minimum of two other 1001 00:35:39.445 --> 00:35:40.989 - authors to have 1002 00:35:41.609 --> 00:35:43.789 - given my book a once over before 1003 00:35:45.210 --> 00:35:47.130 - I certainly before I released it, really before 1004 00:35:47.130 --> 00:35:49.049 - I let anyone else read it. Yep. I'd 1005 00:35:49.049 --> 00:35:51.869 - agree with that. Yeah. Minimum of two, and 1006 00:35:51.929 --> 00:35:52.429 - if 1007 00:35:52.809 --> 00:35:54.589 - I can get three or four or five 1008 00:35:55.014 --> 00:35:55.835 - at the most, 1009 00:35:58.215 --> 00:35:59.835 - then I'm going to be a happy camper, 1010 00:36:00.695 --> 00:36:03.514 - but a minimum of two. If you're 1011 00:36:04.454 --> 00:36:05.755 - out there and you're writing 1012 00:36:06.534 --> 00:36:09.255 - and you're not having other authors read your 1013 00:36:09.255 --> 00:36:11.069 - book, you were doing yourself and your readers 1014 00:36:11.069 --> 00:36:12.690 - a disservice, I think. 1015 00:36:14.509 --> 00:36:16.750 - And I would I'd chuck in there that 1016 00:36:16.750 --> 00:36:18.369 - I might get one 1017 00:36:18.750 --> 00:36:20.589 - writer to so particularly if it's a third 1018 00:36:20.589 --> 00:36:21.569 - book in a series, 1019 00:36:22.545 --> 00:36:23.984 - and I've got a friend I know who's 1020 00:36:23.984 --> 00:36:25.585 - read the other two books. They might become 1021 00:36:25.585 --> 00:36:27.184 - the main beta reader for me, the main 1022 00:36:27.184 --> 00:36:29.925 - critiquer. And they might look at that book 1023 00:36:30.545 --> 00:36:32.144 - as a whole once and then look at 1024 00:36:32.144 --> 00:36:33.764 - chunks of it multiple times. 1025 00:36:34.385 --> 00:36:36.269 - Right. But I will 1026 00:36:36.650 --> 00:36:38.590 - usually pretty much always get 1027 00:36:38.890 --> 00:36:41.530 - or ask somebody else maybe not to read 1028 00:36:41.530 --> 00:36:43.050 - the entire thing if they're really, really busy 1029 00:36:43.050 --> 00:36:44.750 - and if it's a 100,000 word 1030 00:36:45.050 --> 00:36:47.050 - novel rather than the 30 or 40,000 word 1031 00:36:47.050 --> 00:36:49.130 - project. I might ask them to look at 1032 00:36:49.130 --> 00:36:50.670 - the first three chapters. 1033 00:36:51.065 --> 00:36:52.765 - I might ask them to look at, 1034 00:36:53.305 --> 00:36:55.485 - the first 50 pages, a 100 pages. 1035 00:36:56.025 --> 00:36:57.644 - Just so that I know 1036 00:36:58.105 --> 00:37:00.265 - that because there are things I can we've 1037 00:37:00.265 --> 00:37:01.785 - talked about this before. There there are things 1038 00:37:01.785 --> 00:37:03.724 - I can extrapolate from that feedback. 1039 00:37:04.889 --> 00:37:07.369 - If they are telling me that, yeah, your 1040 00:37:07.369 --> 00:37:09.449 - opening's fine. Like, if everything they kinda say 1041 00:37:09.449 --> 00:37:10.829 - about the structural stuff 1042 00:37:11.289 --> 00:37:13.150 - agrees with my main critique 1043 00:37:13.690 --> 00:37:14.190 - partner, 1044 00:37:15.369 --> 00:37:17.704 - that's great. But they might pick up on 1045 00:37:17.785 --> 00:37:20.125 - you have a tendency, Pete. You're using just 1046 00:37:20.505 --> 00:37:21.485 - way too much. 1047 00:37:22.425 --> 00:37:25.305 - Your characters are looking too much. You've got 1048 00:37:25.305 --> 00:37:27.005 - Fred saw, Jane 1049 00:37:27.305 --> 00:37:28.844 - looked, you know, 1050 00:37:29.559 --> 00:37:31.719 - Benny spied. You've got way too much of 1051 00:37:31.719 --> 00:37:33.480 - that stuff in there. Then I can go, 1052 00:37:33.480 --> 00:37:34.920 - right. I'm gonna do a word I'm gonna 1053 00:37:34.920 --> 00:37:36.519 - do a search through the entire novel and 1054 00:37:36.519 --> 00:37:38.199 - see how often I've done that. Mhmm. So 1055 00:37:38.199 --> 00:37:39.239 - you know what I mean? There are things 1056 00:37:39.319 --> 00:37:39.819 - so 1057 00:37:40.280 --> 00:37:41.894 - even if I'm in the midst you know, 1058 00:37:41.894 --> 00:37:42.934 - I'm in a network with a lot of 1059 00:37:42.934 --> 00:37:44.454 - busy people, they might not have time to 1060 00:37:44.454 --> 00:37:45.835 - read the entire project. 1061 00:37:46.295 --> 00:37:48.215 - But even if they can give me feedback 1062 00:37:48.215 --> 00:37:50.135 - on a scene or a chunk or the 1063 00:37:50.135 --> 00:37:50.635 - beginning, 1064 00:37:51.335 --> 00:37:53.494 - that is for me, that's that getting multiple 1065 00:37:53.494 --> 00:37:54.119 - eyes on it. 1066 00:37:55.079 --> 00:37:56.760 - I'm always then gonna go to an editor 1067 00:37:56.760 --> 00:37:57.740 - anyway at some 1068 00:37:58.119 --> 00:38:00.039 - point. So I I'm always getting that layered 1069 00:38:00.039 --> 00:38:01.640 - approach. But, yes, I I think before it 1070 00:38:01.640 --> 00:38:03.079 - goes to the editor, it needs to be 1071 00:38:03.079 --> 00:38:03.579 - read 1072 00:38:03.960 --> 00:38:04.780 - every time. 1073 00:38:05.880 --> 00:38:07.320 - Did you sorry. Did you wanna say anything 1074 00:38:07.320 --> 00:38:08.280 - else on that? Because it does give me 1075 00:38:08.280 --> 00:38:10.034 - another thought, but I don't wanna interrupt you. 1076 00:38:10.114 --> 00:38:10.694 - No. Good. 1077 00:38:11.074 --> 00:38:11.574 - Well, 1078 00:38:11.954 --> 00:38:13.394 - I had the thought before when you're talking 1079 00:38:13.394 --> 00:38:15.474 - about, you know, sometimes it can be difficult 1080 00:38:15.474 --> 00:38:17.414 - for us to build this network and to 1081 00:38:17.875 --> 00:38:19.554 - to take a risk with with other people. 1082 00:38:19.554 --> 00:38:20.054 - But 1083 00:38:20.355 --> 00:38:21.014 - I think 1084 00:38:21.315 --> 00:38:24.210 - building that network, let alone belonging to an 1085 00:38:24.210 --> 00:38:25.889 - an actual writing group where you've got a 1086 00:38:25.889 --> 00:38:27.109 - commitment to each other, 1087 00:38:27.409 --> 00:38:28.789 - that can be one of the 1088 00:38:29.250 --> 00:38:32.070 - antidotes and the prevention to this tendency towards 1089 00:38:32.130 --> 00:38:34.469 - AI and leaning on AI and LLMs. 1090 00:38:35.650 --> 00:38:36.224 - You know, 1091 00:38:37.105 --> 00:38:38.785 - rather than just sitting in a room by 1092 00:38:38.785 --> 00:38:39.765 - yourself and letting 1093 00:38:40.065 --> 00:38:42.864 - chat GBT or or Claude or whatever pat 1094 00:38:42.864 --> 00:38:44.144 - you on the back and say, that's a 1095 00:38:44.144 --> 00:38:47.105 - fantastic idea for a novel. This scene really, 1096 00:38:47.105 --> 00:38:49.105 - really pops. You know? Just think about it. 1097 00:38:49.105 --> 00:38:51.469 - Blah blah blah. You've got real human beings 1098 00:38:51.469 --> 00:38:53.389 - who are the end users of the product 1099 00:38:53.389 --> 00:38:54.929 - that you're creating who are saying, 1100 00:38:55.789 --> 00:38:58.190 - really, I love this character. I want more 1101 00:38:58.190 --> 00:39:00.030 - of that. You know? This character is not 1102 00:39:00.030 --> 00:39:02.190 - working. This character is actually quite offensive, and 1103 00:39:02.190 --> 00:39:03.570 - here are the reasons why. 1104 00:39:04.284 --> 00:39:05.965 - That's what I need to hear is real 1105 00:39:05.965 --> 00:39:08.545 - feedback from real people. Mhmm. And, 1106 00:39:09.005 --> 00:39:09.744 - you know, we 1107 00:39:10.204 --> 00:39:10.864 - we we 1108 00:39:11.164 --> 00:39:13.405 - love really, even if we're introverts, we actually 1109 00:39:13.405 --> 00:39:14.144 - love being 1110 00:39:14.445 --> 00:39:15.965 - in groups of people where we can talk 1111 00:39:15.965 --> 00:39:17.969 - about the same things because you don't always 1112 00:39:17.969 --> 00:39:19.909 - talk about your writing. You start talking about 1113 00:39:20.449 --> 00:39:22.769 - that TV show you've been watching or a 1114 00:39:22.769 --> 00:39:24.369 - game you're playing or whatever it is. It 1115 00:39:24.449 --> 00:39:26.449 - it's better socially. Like, yeah. I think it's 1116 00:39:26.449 --> 00:39:27.890 - it's a bit of an antidote to the 1117 00:39:27.890 --> 00:39:30.550 - AI tendency. Yeah. Yeah. And 1118 00:39:32.445 --> 00:39:32.945 - I 1119 00:39:33.325 --> 00:39:34.864 - I I I would stick in there that 1120 00:39:36.045 --> 00:39:37.744 - don't use generative AI 1121 00:39:38.125 --> 00:39:40.305 - for your writing. Yeah. Yeah. 1122 00:39:40.684 --> 00:39:43.485 - But that is absolutely a topic for for 1123 00:39:43.485 --> 00:39:45.869 - another show. It is. But I think this 1124 00:39:45.949 --> 00:39:47.309 - you know, it it can be an easy 1125 00:39:47.309 --> 00:39:48.369 - go to for people, 1126 00:39:48.750 --> 00:39:50.589 - particularly if we're nervous or we've been hurt 1127 00:39:50.589 --> 00:39:51.969 - by people before. But 1128 00:39:52.349 --> 00:39:54.190 - there are good people out there. You know? 1129 00:39:54.190 --> 00:39:56.030 - There are there are people that want to 1130 00:39:56.030 --> 00:39:57.949 - help you with your project, that wanna believe 1131 00:39:57.949 --> 00:39:58.609 - in you. 1132 00:39:58.909 --> 00:39:59.409 - And, 1133 00:40:00.054 --> 00:40:01.894 - Americans would say root for you, and Australia 1134 00:40:01.894 --> 00:40:03.355 - would say barrack for you. 1135 00:40:03.894 --> 00:40:05.335 - You know, they they wanna be in your 1136 00:40:05.335 --> 00:40:07.414 - corner, and they need you to be in 1137 00:40:07.414 --> 00:40:09.255 - theirs as well. They need you and your 1138 00:40:09.255 --> 00:40:11.815 - expertise. Can I say one more thing just 1139 00:40:11.815 --> 00:40:12.315 - about 1140 00:40:12.789 --> 00:40:14.309 - the group of people that we draw on? 1141 00:40:14.309 --> 00:40:16.230 - I think it's important even if we're because 1142 00:40:16.230 --> 00:40:17.750 - I've kinda been in the narrowing down, and 1143 00:40:17.750 --> 00:40:19.369 - I know I'm coming back to the expanding, 1144 00:40:20.710 --> 00:40:22.230 - sort of process at the moment in terms 1145 00:40:22.230 --> 00:40:23.509 - of the people that I go to with 1146 00:40:23.509 --> 00:40:24.009 - projects. 1147 00:40:24.549 --> 00:40:26.009 - But it it's always been 1148 00:40:26.694 --> 00:40:29.094 - important to remind myself, and I've had other 1149 00:40:29.094 --> 00:40:30.934 - people remind me as well, to look for 1150 00:40:30.934 --> 00:40:31.434 - people 1151 00:40:32.295 --> 00:40:34.135 - who are not in my demographic in my 1152 00:40:34.135 --> 00:40:35.734 - bubble. And I think we've kinda said this, 1153 00:40:35.734 --> 00:40:37.914 - but what I mean is when I suddenly 1154 00:40:39.099 --> 00:40:40.719 - let a 20 year old 1155 00:40:41.099 --> 00:40:42.780 - have a look at the the draft of 1156 00:40:42.780 --> 00:40:44.139 - a short story that I'm writing with the 1157 00:40:44.139 --> 00:40:45.599 - idea for a for a chapter, 1158 00:40:46.219 --> 00:40:47.900 - I get very different feedback than I would 1159 00:40:47.900 --> 00:40:49.900 - from a 60 year old, and it's just 1160 00:40:49.900 --> 00:40:52.159 - as valid. And to get that cross generational 1161 00:40:52.300 --> 00:40:52.800 - feedback's 1162 00:40:53.204 --> 00:40:55.204 - massively important, not to just go to people 1163 00:40:55.204 --> 00:40:56.664 - who think the way I do. 1164 00:40:57.204 --> 00:40:59.684 - But if I want 20 year olds, 30 1165 00:40:59.684 --> 00:41:02.005 - year olds, 16 year olds to read my 1166 00:41:02.005 --> 00:41:02.505 - work, 1167 00:41:03.125 --> 00:41:04.905 - might be helpful just occasionally 1168 00:41:05.650 --> 00:41:07.489 - to hear what they think of it and 1169 00:41:07.489 --> 00:41:09.329 - make some adjustments. You know, think about some 1170 00:41:09.329 --> 00:41:11.969 - adjustments based on that. That also applies to 1171 00:41:11.969 --> 00:41:13.829 - what are called sensitivity readers 1172 00:41:14.610 --> 00:41:16.130 - that you know, I don't wanna open up 1173 00:41:16.130 --> 00:41:18.130 - a whole new topic, but just being sure 1174 00:41:18.130 --> 00:41:20.309 - if I'm writing a character who's from another 1175 00:41:20.934 --> 00:41:22.234 - culture, another nationality, 1176 00:41:23.815 --> 00:41:25.034 - you know, another sexuality, 1177 00:41:25.655 --> 00:41:26.155 - another 1178 00:41:26.694 --> 00:41:28.155 - who has a disability economics. 1179 00:41:28.614 --> 00:41:29.914 - Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. 1180 00:41:30.375 --> 00:41:30.875 - Just 1181 00:41:31.255 --> 00:41:34.054 - sometimes getting someone who has some experience there 1182 00:41:34.054 --> 00:41:34.554 - to 1183 00:41:35.300 --> 00:41:36.659 - to read it from their point of view 1184 00:41:36.659 --> 00:41:37.400 - and say, 1185 00:41:38.420 --> 00:41:38.920 - yeah. 1186 00:41:39.619 --> 00:41:41.699 - You know, to to share their reservations or 1187 00:41:41.699 --> 00:41:43.300 - share their no. No. That's fine. That's good 1188 00:41:43.300 --> 00:41:44.679 - what you're doing there. Yeah. 1189 00:41:45.780 --> 00:41:46.920 - Okay. To recap, 1190 00:41:47.300 --> 00:41:48.760 - critique partners are essential. 1191 00:41:49.605 --> 00:41:51.545 - Different partners have different strengths. 1192 00:41:52.244 --> 00:41:54.344 - Build those relationships over time. 1193 00:41:54.885 --> 00:41:55.945 - Start small. 1194 00:41:56.405 --> 00:41:58.724 - Yes. Learn how to receive criticism. Because they're 1195 00:41:58.724 --> 00:42:01.125 - not critique partners. Yeah. Honest but kind when 1196 00:42:01.125 --> 00:42:01.945 - giving criticism. 1197 00:42:02.750 --> 00:42:05.409 - Critiquing other writers improves your own writing. 1198 00:42:05.949 --> 00:42:08.530 - Get multiple sets of eyes on your manuscript. 1199 00:42:09.389 --> 00:42:12.369 - Seek perspective outside your bubble and reciprocate. 1200 00:42:12.989 --> 00:42:13.710 - Right? Does that, 1201 00:42:14.989 --> 00:42:16.609 - does that about, cover it? 1202 00:42:17.244 --> 00:42:17.744 - Yep. 1203 00:42:19.484 --> 00:42:22.784 - Alright, Pete. Well, thanks, man. It's been a 1204 00:42:23.164 --> 00:42:26.224 - very good discussion, man. I always appreciate our 1205 00:42:26.844 --> 00:42:28.464 - our talks for sure. 1206 00:42:29.500 --> 00:42:31.579 - And looking forward to, to the next one. 1207 00:42:31.579 --> 00:42:32.079 - Yeah. 1208 00:42:32.460 --> 00:42:34.460 - This is perhaps one of the most crucial, 1209 00:42:34.460 --> 00:42:35.119 - if not 1210 00:42:35.660 --> 00:42:37.440 - the most crucial and 1211 00:42:37.820 --> 00:42:38.320 - rewarding 1212 00:42:38.700 --> 00:42:40.940 - beneficial topic, I think, we've talked about and 1213 00:42:40.940 --> 00:42:41.864 - we will talk about. 1214 00:42:42.344 --> 00:42:44.704 - So, yeah, take take it seriously and and 1215 00:42:44.704 --> 00:42:46.664 - give it give it some energy and some 1216 00:42:46.664 --> 00:42:49.304 - thought and some time. Yeah. Always good always 1217 00:42:49.304 --> 00:42:50.605 - good talking, man. Yeah.