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Announcer: This is a Getty
podcast.

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[Rising, meditative music]

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Lilit Sadoyan: Hi—I’m Lilit
Sadoyan, the host of OMMM,

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Our Museum Mindfulness
Meditation podcast, Getty’s

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first video podcast.

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Welcome to this Deeper Dive,
where we explore the themes of

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our weekly episodes with experts
in everything from gardening

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to the history of colors.

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Shoukei Matsumoto: The moment
you can nurture your mindfulness

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is not limited within the
practice of, you know, fancy,

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zen-like sitting meditation,
but any moment could be

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your mindfulness practice.

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Sadoyan: This week, we
did a cleaning meditation

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inspired by Jean-Baptiste
Greuze’s The Laundress.

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I spoke with Buddhist
monk Shoukei Matsumoto

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from his home in Japan.

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He’s author of A Monk’s Guide
to a Clean House and Mind.

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We talked about his philosophy
on cleaning as a meditative

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and caretaking practice.

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Now, let’s dive in.

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[On video call] Shoukei,
thank you so much for joining

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me today on this podcast.

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Matsumoto: Hi, Lilit.

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Thank you so much
for inviting me.

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It's a real pleasure for me.

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Sadoyan: And for me as
well, too, thank you.

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So Shoukei, in your book, A
Monk’s Guide to a Clean House

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and Mind, you discuss cleaning,
and specifically, polishing

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floors as a means to clean the
earthly dirt from your soul and

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to polish your heart and mind.

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This really resonated with
me, so I was wondering

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if you could just speak a
little bit more about that.

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Matsumoto: Sure.

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Um, so...

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yeah—Let me ask a question.

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So do you—do you like

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sweeping on the floor?

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Sadoyan: I actually
really love sweeping.

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It gives me great satisfaction.

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Matsumoto: Ah, so we
are like-minded people.

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[both laugh] So I also
love cleaning and sweeping

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because, um, it’s like a

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meditation in motion, right?

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[Sadoyan:  Mm-hmm.] So, yes,
at the end of the practice, we

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find that the floor is clean,

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but the process itself has

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a meaning.

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Sadoyan: Mm-hmm.

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Matsumoto: So, uh,

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while I’m cleaning, I can
immerse myself completely

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in the practice of sweeping.

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So this makes

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my mind clear.

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Sadoyan: Mm-hmm.

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Yeah, so it has–it sounds
like a direct impact on

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somebody’s mind or even their
soul, their consciousness?

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Matsumoto: Yes,
you could say so.

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But at the same time, what
I want to emphasize is that,

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you know, there is no end
in the practice of cleaning.

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You could imagine when you
visit a Japanese temple,

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which looks impeccably clean,

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okay, so monks in this temple
should, uh, must do this

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with 100% effort to
clean everything 100%

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impeccably.

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But if you practice cleaning
as a finite game which has

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ends and, you know, in this
mindset you kind of fight

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against the dirt, right?

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But at the end of the practice
you’d find, oh—there is no

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end in this practice because
once you assume, okay, this

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is the end of cleaning, at
that moment the leaves fall.

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So, you never complete cleaning.

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Sadoyan: Yeah, I mean, the
work is never done, of course,

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and I think that’s why we call
it a practice, essentially.

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Matsumoto: Uh-huh.

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And the practice has no end.

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Sadoyan: Right.

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What you’re saying is reminding
me of one of the central tenets

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of Buddhist philosophy, which
is about non-striving, right?

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This kind of shift
from doing to being.

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Um, and I’m wondering if
you could speak about that

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concept of non-striving, that
philosophy of non-striving

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in relation to cleaning.

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How do we account for
non-striving in our cleaning?

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Matsumoto: Do you know the
meaning of the word Buddha?

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Buddha means

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the one who

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has no attachment.

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But everywhere, everybody,
including me, has an

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attachment as long as
you are a human being.

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I’m attached to the future,
I’m attached to the past.

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Every moment my mind is
easily, um, captured with

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the anxiety over the future
or the regrets on the past.

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So my monkey-mind is
very naughty, [laughs]

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so easily, goes to the

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past and future.

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So, you know,

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the meaning of cleaning
practice, you know,

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is getting yourself

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grounded in this very moment,
right here, right now.

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Right?

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So which makes

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you less attached to something.

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And specifically, in today’s
world, we are always striving

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for a certain purpose, right?

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But, you know, essentially,
the meaning to have a purpose,

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goal, dream, whatever,

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essentially it means you
have something, or there

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is something, which you
don’t have right now, right?

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Which is not fulfilled yet.

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[Sadoyan: Right.] So
this way of thinking

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makes you far

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from Buddha state.

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So, um, essentially for the
people living in today’s

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world, I think the practice of
cleaning is keeping yourself

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away from goal-oriented
mindset in many cases.

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Sadoyan: So would you say
that there, when you’re

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cleaning, that there are
no goals associated with

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that part of the practice?

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Matsumoto: Um, That's a

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good question.

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So, hmm.

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When we clean, there
is a certain direction.

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Uh, I mean, when I give
a broom to someone,

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nobody tried to make the
state of this, you know,

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this room more messy, right?
[laughs] 

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So there is a
certain direction, but,

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you know, there is a saying
in a Japanese monastery,

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“Hachikujo”, which means,
don’t make 100% effort.

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Just make your effort as
80%, 90%, because the notion

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of 100% is just illusion.

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The notion of 100% effort is
based on finite game mindset.

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Right?

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It’s, in other words,
it’s binary thinking.

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So--

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Sadoyan: All or nothing.

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Matsumoto: Yes, all or nothing.

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Sadoyan: It sounds like
with focusing on the 100%

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that there’s a lot of ego
attached to that as well.

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Matsumoto: Yes.

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Yes, indeed.

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Sadoyan: And it sounds
like, also, cleaning as a

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means to ground into the
present moment, right?

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[Matsumoto: Mm-hmm] And ground
ourselves in the present moment.

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So I’m wondering if you have
any advice or suggestions

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for our listeners who would
like to practice mindfulness

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while doing their chores.

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Matsumoto: Um, okay.

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So if I come back to this
picture, Laundress.

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I’m not that familiar with
the art, but, you know,

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I guess in the time when
this picture, this painting

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was created, the audience
or the people who saw this

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painting was kind of
noble class, right?

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And—-

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Sadoyan: Yes.

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Matsumoto: But

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the subject of this
painting itself is a kind

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of daily routine in the

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people’s class, right?

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Sadoyan: Correct.

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Matsumoto: Hmm.

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So in that sense, there
is a separation, you know?

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The people who looked at these
paintings were separated from

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the subject of this painting.

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But the beauty of
this painting is

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the lady in this picture
looks happy and strong.

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So, these days,

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many people are getting
liberated from the works, thanks

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to AI robots maybe, you know.

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We have cleaners and laundry
machines, and so, uh,

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we are getting liberated
from the daily routine.

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But, at the end of the
day, the question is

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okay, if you are liberated
from these house chores

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then what do you do?

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Mm-hmm.

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As you may know—may not—the
life in the monastery in Japan

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is full of daily routine.

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The monks in a monastery
doesn’t put, uh, doesn’t

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immerse themselves 100% with,
you know, fancy mindfulness,

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meditation practice in sitting.

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But they–what they actually
do is just a daily life,

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you know, a care of their
habitat in a monastery.

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Of course, they put some
minutes, some hours,

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in the practice of
mindfulness sitting, but

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they put more time on cleaning,
gardening, cooking, and so on.

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Right?

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So, these things like
laundry or cleaning are

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not something we–I
want to avoid, but

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I can change, I can turn
any single moment in our

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life, whatever you are
doing, into mindfulness

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practice as long as you

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do it with a focus.

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Sadoyan: Yes, and
intention, right?

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Matsumoto: Intention, yes, yes.

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[Sadoyan: Mm-hmm.] Yeah, yeah.

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That’s a great point.

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You know,

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this is the real threat
in our society, I believe.

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Um, in this attention
economy, our attention and the

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intention are stolen for many
hours in our everyday life.

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So this is a real threat.

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Sadoyan: Yes,

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and the opportunity to practice
mindfulness or the practice

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of mindfulness itself is a
way to reclaim that attention

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and intention, in my mind.

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Matsumoto: Yes, yes.

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And you remember
the fact that—-so

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the moment you can nurture
your mindfulness is not

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limited within the practice
of, you know, fancy, Zen-like,

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sitting meditation, [Sadoyan
laughs] but any moment

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could be your mindfulness
practice or, yeah, to

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retrieve your autonomy,
agency, with full attention

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and intention in everyday life.

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Sadoyan: That’s exactly right.

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[Theme music begins]

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Well, Shoukei, you’ve given
me so much to think about,

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especially the next time I
pick up a broom or a towel

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[laughs] and start to clean.

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Um, I’m so grateful for all
of your insight, and just want

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to thank you again for joining
me on the podcast today.

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Matsumoto: Yeah,
thank you so much.

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So, I’m looking forward
to visiting your museum to

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see this lady in laundry.
[laughs]

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Sadoyan: Please, anytime,
you’d be my guest.

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Matsumoto: Thank you so much.

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Sadoyan: Thank you.

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To find the related
meditation and see images,

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transcripts, and additional
resources, visit our website

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00:19:08,139 --> 00:19:10,129
at Getty dot edu slash OMMM.

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That’s O-M-M-M.