Welcome back to Live It Out a podcast.
We are in the last week of series,
Real Life
Jesus, His Kingdom, and You, Tim Boobar. What's
going on today, dude? Let's do it. Let's
record a podcast. Let's record a podcast. And
while we're here, we have microphones in front
of us. Yeah.
In this studio setup, thanks to one Jess
Jones.
We found that out lately. That's a recent
discovery. Yeah. Did you know that? I knew
it. I I mean I mean, no. I
didn't know it before. I know it now.
Out on a circle. Right. I think, man,
did I know it before this moment that
Jesse Jones, production director, Two Rivers Church,
is is not only just cool with, he
preferred to go by Jess. Yeah. It's sort
of been, like, his I think his typical
His typical nickname or thing. Yeah. Short name.
Yeah. And we were all shocked and and
awe. And now he hears that we're talking
about it, and he doesn't like it. Looking
at us. He's looking at us. So, yeah,
I'm gonna tell you if you if you
like the sound effects,
tell Jess,
hey, dude. Awesome. If you don't like the
sound effects,
don't say anything.
But he's given us some new ones that
we get to drop in today. Alright. So
it's gonna be fun.
Hey. This weekend, we did talk about,
the topic of forgiveness. Now forgiveness is one
of those things,
super easy to say. We started talking about
that. Easy to say. Well, forgive.
Really hard to do, but even more than
that, it seems so simple and yet it's
really complicated. And so real life with Jesus
in his kingdom
is fueled by grace, demonstrated by forgiveness. It
really in this teaching in chapter 18,
the culmination
of of this
teaching,
hey, who's the greatest in the kingdom? And
Jesus says,
it's those who enter into the kingdom like
a child, humble, independent. Right? And those are
the ones
that are great in the kingdom. So the
people who are in the kingdom are the
greatest in the kingdom because in order to
enter the kingdom, you have to become like
a child. And then he goes on to
describe that life. And so over the past
two weeks, we saw that. Saw it played
out last week
that as, Jesus left off with talking about
the shepherd who goes
the week before into last week, Mark talked
about
how
how is it that we,
pursue people, really what it is. Right? Like,
what's got reduced to church discipline
Right. Is really the pursuit of people, which
is kind of funny. I mean, for years.
In fact, we invented, like, a
we invented, like, a verb. Yeah. What is
it, Tim?
The the infinitive form is to Matthew 18
or to Matthew 18 someone. That's really what
it is. So Yeah. So what if they
got Matthew 18? Did somebody did they Matthew
18 you?
That's what that was that's what you said,
actually. Yeah. And so now it's like, oh,
yeah. Now it it has all kind of
variations because it's now, like, okay. Did they
did they actually forgive you? So,
once again, it is it's one of those
things
that is,
man,
it's far more complicated
when you start
digging into it.
And I think starting applying to real life
situations.
Like that kind of digging in, really. It
does. Right.
Because
this parable
just
I mean Okay. One of the things I
really liked about this section through Matthew,
chapter 13 into 18,
is,
it just is.
Like, you don't sometimes with scripture, you have
to work through the nuance, and and we've
learned that some places along the way. You
know, like, okay, what's the location? What's that
communicating? And all those kinds of things.
And you have to to cross the cultural
divide.
And in this one,
it's it's really
it's really as simple as it appears Mhmm.
That, wait a minute.
You've got things all out of whack. You've
been forgiven,
yet you
you
the debt is insurmountable,
yet you won't forgive someone else. And it's
it's still a debt, and it's still a
it's not inconsequential.
Three months wage. Right?
It's the the debt that somebody has against,
the other, you know, the
the first servant who was forgiven.
This weekend mentioned, you know, somewhere between $1,314,000,000,000
dollars worth of debt,
which I didn't comment on this weekend. It
it like, if we're gonna really pick apart
and over over analyze the parable Uh-huh. We
could be like, wow. Well, that was really
a a terrible
king that gave him that much credit. Let
him get that much in debt. Yeah.
Yeah. And it's just a perfect it's just
a perfect example of,
doing things to
a a parable that we should do. Overcooking
the parable. Overcooking the parable. Yeah. All I
had to say though that that it is
this,
hyperbolic
distance between the two examples. And we talked
before. Often I think we have.
I get confused sometimes.
K.
We have so many conversations. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
What did we say
on the podcast? What was said in a
sermon? What was said in the hallway? Yes.
That kind of thing. Yeah. Or what did
I just walk into your office and sit
down and unload?
What was the one this week?
Hanukkah. That was the one this week. Right?
Yeah. Yeah. Just sit down and dump it
all in your mouth.
I'm a verbal processor.
It yeah. I need I need that. You
don't believe what I learned about Hanukkah. What
the Hanukkah?
Yeah. Anyway, all that to say,
oh, that would be cool. Maybe in December,
we can do a podcast on Hanukkah. Yeah.
It just came to me right now. Okay.
Let's do it.
Let's go. Let's do it. Okay.
All I had to say,
when you when you come to this text,
it's the ultimate mirror. And we talked about
that this weekend. It's just pick up the
mirror, look, and go. If
if
you if you have this
space and place in your life where if
somebody
offends you
or they do they do something, it is
an offense. It doesn't mean it's it was
insignificant. It could be a really
significant thing. But you're like, I'm not gonna
forgive you because you don't deserve it.
The question of whether or not you believe
the gospel actually comes into play. Yeah.
Like, do you really grasp the gospel?
Because
the amount of forgiveness that you've been given
Right.
Should change your perspective on forgiveness. Right? Like,
yeah. It's all it's like it's not a
rule about you're not allowed to be forgiven
if you don't forgive. This is the way
I I kind of have been thinking about
it. It's not like so much that it's
a rule. Like,
well, this is the rule. If you don't
forgive, you can't be forgiven. It's like if
you can't forgive someone because you don't think
they're they're worthy of forgiveness, then you probably
have not
grasped
what God has done for you, and that's
the issue. Yeah. Yeah.
And so we talked about how we're called,
to cancel offenses,
not track them. Mhmm.
What an anti
worldly approach.
Right? It it's just totally
contrary to the world,
which then,
for us as followers of Jesus, we should
say, wait. If it's contrary to the world
system,
that likely
sounds like the kingdom of God. Because it's
the world's upside down.
Jesus came and he flips things upright.
And upright looks like
instead of tracking how many times a person
has
wronged me,
I'm I'm canceling offenses as they happen.
Crazy.
It is crazy, and it makes,
everybody
a little nervous
because
it sounds
dangerous to live that way. It kinda you
know, like, either
you're gonna
either you're gonna get yourself into trouble because
you're gonna forgive somebody who needs to be
who shouldn't doesn't deserve forgiveness, or you're gonna
make me feel really bad about myself because
you're way more forgiving than I'm willing to
be. You know, like,
when someone is that's that that I mean,
I just think that happens a lot with
the way of Jesus. It is countercultural enough
that
it ends up sounding
disconcerting
because it's not
it's not normal. Right. Yeah.
So I I recommended, Keller's book, Forgiveness.
Difficult title. Forgive.
You know, forgive. That's what the book is
called.
Why should I and how can I? And
he talked about in it that it does
forgiveness actually does cost us something. Mhmm. We
have to
it's not just like, oh
oh, no big deal. It means wait. There's
a there's a real offense that happened. I
was
harmed
maybe really in a physical kind of way,
but definitely
in a
emotional,
kind of way. There's a weight to it.
There's there's real damage that was done.
Instead of exacting payment from another person, I'm
willing to take the payment upon myself.
Mhmm. And that's
really starting to connect it to the gospel.
And so we really did, this weekend, emphasize
just out of the gate, this is complicated.
And because it's complicated,
use the parable as a mirror,
but don't stop there. Go through process.
In other words, if if this is something,
like, you're you're like, I have this issue
from way back in my history, and I
still haven't forgiven.
And I know I need to, but I
can't. And all that like,
reach out for help. Yeah.
Right? Right. Because it's complicated. Like, I mean,
you like,
human,
mind, heart, emotions, and experiences are complicated,
and
relationships are complicated, and this gets into all
of that. So, yeah, don't just try and
go, well,
nothing I can do about it, or I
can just figure this out. Yeah. I think
being able
to be humble enough
and maybe desperate enough to say, I I
need somebody to help me sort this out
is really important. Yeah.
Because then
it's one thing just to say it is
a
it's a spirit empowered
kind of thing. That it's, you know, hey,
you can't do this. We we know that.
We can't follow Jesus on our own. It's
only through the holy spirit that we're born
again,
made a new creation in Christ, empowered by
the holy spirit who's resident within us,
that we are a new creation. And so
if we're going to forgive that kind of
way, it is a spirit empowered kind of
thing.
But that's one thing to say, hey, I
believe that that's factually true.
But it's another thing to actually
do it. Whereas we talked about forgiveness as
a journey with Jesus empowered by the spirit
over time.
That's, I think, where we need a lot
of help.
Because forgiveness begins with a decision, but it
doesn't end there. Mhmm. It's a it's a
beginning. I I decide. Yes. I know it's
forgiveness, and now I have to let that
play out over and over and over again.
I have to
stay at it over and over and over
again as it as it transforms
me, actually Uh-huh. Over time.
I had somebody say to me recently, it's
something they learned was, like I can't remember
exactly what it is. But it's, like, it's
one thing to forgive like, you can forgive
someone for,
I can't remember the terminology they use. Basically,
you can forgive forgive someone for the
action they did,
but then it's another thing to forgive them
for the, like, the con the results of
that action.
So I can go, I okay. I forgive
you for that thing you did, but then
I suffered consequences from that. And I still
am. And
that's another process is now
I forgiving you for how I have felt
or what I've gone through since that thing
that you said or did. And that really
does it was helpful to me because it
just highlighted that how much of it is
a process with Jesus. And we should I
think when you hear Jesus
say
to Peter, you know, yeah, you're gonna
forgive your brother over and over again. And
when you hear this story, you should say
forgiveness is the living in forgiveness is the
right way to live. So I should say
that, but I also shouldn't say,
oh, I can't do that, or I did
it and I'm done. You know, like,
to agree with Jesus is to agree that
I think that there's a process to it.
Yeah. Yeah. So I I wanna read a
little excerpt
from,
Keller's book, Forgive.
And
it it's about what forgiveness
is.
So he the the book itself,
I just introduced it. He used a quote
to kinda set up the idea of forgiveness.
But,
in the book, it's in particular, the whole
book is kind of about this parable that
Jesus tells about
forgiveness
here in Matthew at the end of chapter
18.
And here's what he writes.
When someone seriously wrongs you, there is an
unavoidable sense that the wrongdoer
owes you.
So this is what he's saying is why
why Jesus uses the parable of debts.
Is it there's there's been something. So okay.
Said it this weekend. This parable isn't about
money. It might apply. It might apply to
a money situation, you know, but this isn't
about money. It's not about
literally forgiving debt. It's a parable. He's making
a point about the forgiveness that we extend
to other people.
So the wrong has incurred an obligation, a
liability, a debt. Anyone who is wronged
feels a compulsion
to make the other person pay down that
debt.
We do that by hurting them, yelling at
them, making them feel bad in some way,
or even just waiting and watching and hoping
that something bad happens to them. Yeah.
Only after we see them suffer in some
commensurate
way do we sense that the debt has
been paid and the feeling of obligation is
gone?
This sense of debt slash liability
and obligation is impossible to escape.
Anyone who denies it exists
has simply not been wronged or sinned against
in any
serious way.
Forgiveness means giving up the right to revenge.
And that's I actually used that quote this
weekend,
but all that to say,
it's complicated.
Yeah. And it's something that we can go
wait.
Because it's something, like, you you run it
through your mind, and you run it through
your mind, and you run it through your
mind.
And if it's been a serious offense,
and I write just referred to and I
didn't mean to be overly generic this weekend,
but
the details of the thing aren't aren't important.
Mhmm. And it happened a long time ago.
But but the level of the wounding was
significant. The level of betrayal
was
significant.
When someone says,
Hey, you're here
at our church, talks you into taking a
job,
says,
literally straight looks your wife straight in the
eye and says, You have nothing to worry
about. As long as I'm here,
we will take care of you. Looks are
dead in the eye.
And at the time, it's like we had
other options. We got other things we could
do. But, like, okay,
this is what we're to do.
And,
you know, just over a year later,
it's radically different than that.
And and not only that,
denied that conversation
at dinner
ever happened. Mhmm. You know, like, of course
I never said that. I mean, radical, radical,
radical. It's far worse than that. All that
to say,
that wasn't something that I got over in
a week. Yeah. It wasn't like, oh, okay.
I guess I'm I'm cool.
It really was over a few a span
of years that I had to
reckon with. And it wasn't always at the
front of my mind. It wasn't always there,
but I had to wrestle my way through
it. And
because the person had wronged me,
in particular,
it was connected with a church and
he's a Christian and I'm a Christian and
it's connected to church work. It it got
even more
convoluted
in the sense of,
well, God, why did you do this to
me? And that gets complicated. Yeah.
So then you have to to go, okay.
Wait. Over time,
how am I actively
pursuing forgiveness?
And once again, it's not something maybe that
was always at the front. It was initially,
it was always at the front of my
mind.
But eventually, over time, you know, you're like,
okay. You move on and it's a year
later. It's two years later. It's three years
later.
And you realize you're still maybe not fully
embracing the forgiveness
that Jesus is teaching here in Matthew chapter
18. And then you have to go, okay.
Wait.
Where where is that? Holy Spirit, what are
you doing in that?
And it led to a situation where
I didn't even know in the back of
my mind
that I had a question. Like, I I
I would lead to a point where I
finally felt like, okay, listen. This is I've
forgiven him. I've forgiven him. Like, I think
we're good. You know? I think it's played
out, and I can't say it was, like,
on this date, at this time, or whatever.
But I was like, no. I think
I think this is it's no longer a
thing. Mhmm. And
then to run into him at a conference
and
be like,
wow.
It's real. Because because I didn't have any
of
the the feeling indicators. None of the like,
I wasn't uncomfortable.
I wasn't,
I didn't feel anything welling up within me.
There was no anger there. There was no
residual anger. Because that could go either way.
You could see him at the conference and
go, oh, I guess I haven't forgiven this
person. Yeah. Yeah. And so then, like I
said this weekend, when I walked away and
I really saw it as a gift from
God. First off, that, like, it would, it's
not like, oh, yeah. That's I'm gonna run
into him. I went to this place and
he went to this place,
you know. This was years later. I had
two jobs later,
you know. Like, the scenario had radically changed
and
I was like, wow.
You know? Like,
I hadn't I had come to this point
too where there hadn't been like I probably
hadn't had conscious thought about it for a
while. Mhmm.
And but I I realized walking away in
the back of my mind, I I kind
of had always had that question.
I wonder what would happen
if I saw him, if I ran into
him. Yeah. Could I talk to him? Could
I be kind? Could I smile? And I
was like,
my goodness. And I really did see it
as a gift from God. Yeah. Like, it
it took a span of time to get
to the point of saying, okay, wait. Not
not just,
hey, am I am I okay?
But no, legitimately,
I think the forgiveness
is ultimately,
not just about what I'm extending that person.
It's the transformation that it brings to me.
And
I think that's where we're missing it often
when it comes to forgiveness
is
we're not grasping that.
And you mentioned that, you know, of course,
the span of time and that it's a
process. And so when when Jesus says at
the end of this parable, so also my
heavenly father will do to every one of
you if you do not
if you do not forgive your brother from
your heart.
You know, it's it's that's pretty heavy.
So what about the timing and the like,
so
how do I know if I can't forgive
someone now,
or I haven't forgiven someone now? Am I
is Jesus ready to is
is is his father ready to
Smite you?
Throw me into jail with the torturers?
You know, like Yeah.
What do I do today
knowing I oh,
I'm not there yet?
I'm gonna steal a baseball phrase. Okay. And
once again, this is now we're just into
opinion.
There's not I can't go to, like, a
Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is using baseball.
Embrace
the process.
I believe that if you embrace
the process
in other words,
I don't want to forgive him in my
heart, but I want to want to forgive
him in my heart. Yeah. Yeah. Yep.
And
I wanna get to the place
where I forgive him in my heart. Mhmm.
I wanna be obedient to Jesus
above all.
Jesus
life in Jesus' kingdom
is where my allegiance is. And because my
allegiance is
following Jesus
in his kingdom,
I that's the life I want,
and I'm willing
to pursue
Jesus
in order to see
that happen, and that's gonna require
that I have to confront this offense,
and I have to work through the process.
Is that helpful? Yeah. It is. And it's
the difference between, like, oh, I
it's the the difference between
I need to
try to hate this person less.
Right. And I need to go through this
process of understanding better and believing more
what God has done for me and what
he's forgiven me of. And it just it
reminds me of,
you know, a verse that
comes up a lot, I think, for us
in
in Titus chapter two when
Paul writes, for the grace of God. The
grace of God has appeared,
bringing salvation for all people,
training us to renounce ungodliness,
worldly passions, and to live self controlled, upright,
godly lives in this present age. Like,
it's God's grace showed up to and and
it's it is training us. God's grace is
training us. So, of course, it's a process
that I'm gonna need
the more I understand and receive God's grace,
then that's training
me to go, oh, God has forgiven me
of even more than I thought.
I actually needed him more than I realized.
My debt to him was greater than I
understood.
And thankfully,
God is gentle with us and shows us
that over time.
And I think what you're talking about is
that that's the process. Is as I'm recognizing
that more, I'm experiencing god's grace more, then
it becomes natural for me to give
more grace, including forgiveness. Yeah. And this weekend,
I kinda I I used Ephesians and Colossians
to kinda talk about that process,
in the sense of,
you know, it's not just, like,
forgive and move on. That's not it.
Forgiving isn't forgetting, you know. It's not like,
hey, forget the offense and and move on.
It's forgiving the offense. And so that's not
exacting
payment.
It it's not denying
there was ever a debt. Right.
Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's forgiveness. Yeah. That is
important. It's it's forgiving. It's not forgetting. Right.
And so so the process of,
in Ephesians chapter four, at the end of
four and ended the beginning of chapter five,
where, Paul wrote, do not grieve the Holy
Spirit of God by whom you were sealed
for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness
and wrath and anger and clamor and slander
be put away from you along with all
malice.
Be kind to one another, tend to harder,
forgiving one another
as God in Christ forgave you.
Therefore, be imitators of God as beloved children
and walk in love as Christ loved us
and gave himself up for us, A fragrant
offering and a sacrifice
to God. That's that's a spirit empowered thing.
That is
that's living out the life. And then, you
know, whether it's the fruit of the spirit
in Galatians, but it goes on, you know,
in Colossians chapter three. Forgiving each other as
the Lord has forgiven you. So you also
must forgive. Like, it is the spirit empowered
life. Yeah. Well, how do I do that?
The I think, you know, like, it's what
you said. The more that I grasp
the
the the profound
debt that Jesus paid for me,
that's one side of a coin. And I
think the other side of the coin is
the more that I'm able to put in
truth,
the more that I'm able to put in
truth into my mind and into my heart,
I'm able to go,
wait a minute.
Wait a minute. That
that's not
that's actually
I I wanna say, like, maybe even
okay. You can push back on this. I
I just thought of this right now. Okay.
Maybe even
like, he's not pointing towards pure motive. Like,
I think a lot a lot of time
we get we get a little,
maybe like, okay, where is my motive pure
in the forgiveness? And and this parable doesn't
point to motive. Sure. And so I would
even be able to say, in some way,
the motive
like, if I really grasp
the power of the gospel to forgive me,
what Jesus has done, and if I'm like,
if I wanna live in that freedom
that he's given me Yeah. I can't hold
on to this. I wanna enjoy that freedom
he's given me. Yeah. It's okay to want
I think you're right. I think it's okay
to want
to enjoy
the the freedom that we have in Christ
and to go, I wanna I wanna I
don't wanna live,
like, beholden to malice. You know, when you
read that verse, I was like, yeah. Sometimes
malice feels good. Like, I wanna
hold on to hatred in my heart, but
it does not work long term. You know?
But in the short term? Yeah. Sometimes it
does feel good. Yeah. It does. You're like,
oh, now I'm just gonna slander this person.
Uh-huh. And how dated they, and could you
believe they did? Yeah. And that's that's why
I said, like, as I was concluding this
weekend, the irony of forgiveness
is that it restores you.
Right? Yeah. It's not just that and and
in the end, your your relationship
may never return
to what it was. It it might not
even be appropriate
for your relationship
to return to what it was. Right. But
that doesn't mean there's not gonna be forgiveness.
Right. So it doesn't mean, like,
you have a business partner. He stole all
your money. Uh-huh. He
he left town and stole all your money.
That doesn't mean that you don't go to
the police
and have him prosecuted. Right. But at the
same time, when you come face to face
with him, there's there's a level of I'm
I'm not harboring anything against you
because I have forgiven you for the offense
that you've committed to me. Yeah. But that
doesn't mean that you're alleviated from the consequences
of sin Yeah. Alleviated from the consequences of
the law. That's absolutely true. If there's a
case of abuse Uh-huh. If there's a case
of abuse, your relationship
isn't ever gonna be what it was. Right.
But that doesn't mean that there there can't
be forgiveness. Right. It's not pretending that it
didn't happen. And like we said, it's not
forgetting. I heard years ago read something from
a
researcher, you know, like from Stanford or something
on forgiveness. And
I don't think he's a believer, but he
said he wrote something like
this is the way I've quoted it for
years. I don't know if I'm accurate or
not. Forgiveness is all is giving up all
hope of a better past.
And that's not the whole picture of it,
but I do think that's part of it
is it's not forgetting the past. It's not
pretending it didn't happen, but it's giving up,
like, that somehow
if I make this person suffer, the my
past will get better. Because it won't. That
that thing happened. That experience happened. And instead
of holding
holding them in
yeah. Until they pay for it somehow, until
they are punished enough for it. Instead of
that, I'm gonna go, the past has happened,
and there are results of that.
And, you know, some of the things you
just named, it may be the results of
that. But I'm not gonna
I'm not gonna live that I somehow the
past will be better. Yeah. So Keller's book,
it does go through,
and I'm not familiar, like, I can't remember
just off my the top of my head
how recently he passed away.
But,
it it goes into all, like,
pretty pretty current since COVID, since 2020 Yeah.
Through a lot of cultural
Mhmm. Examples of things that have needed forgiveness
and how the world kind of gives a
contrary message. Like, you know, you'll get taken
advantage of if you try and forgive. Like,
the world will take advantage of you. And
don't be a doormat and don't keep getting
run over. And
he actually writes this.
He writes,
to forgive is to cancel the debt by
paying it or absorbing it yourself.
Someone
always
pays
every debt. And he uses like, this is
how monetary debt works.
So when you forgive somebody a monetary
debt and you write that off,
you lose the money. Right. You don't get
the money. Right. That's gonna cost you something.
You were supposed to get it, and now
you're not gonna get it. Right. And so
just, you know, not over cooking the parable,
but, okay, 13 to $14,000,000,000
is the one master.
He absorbed
it. Yeah.
He lost
it. The other one
wasn't willing to absorb the $15,000
hit. I'm not gonna absorb that kind of
loss. And that was really it really was
helpful for me because it's not like, okay,
just pretend like it didn't happen. It literally
is flipping that and saying,
it's it is a gospel picture.
I will take
the debt that that person owes, I'll pay
it.
I'll pay it. I'll write it off. And
that means that I have to deal with
all of the emotional scars, all of the
hurt, pain.
Yeah. That that I'm willing to take that
on rather than venting in anger against the
person who has
perpetrated the crime,
I'm going to take that all on
and and and believe that the gospel is
bigger. Yeah. And that Christ is bigger and
the spirit is going to transform that for,
you know, for god's good in my and,
you know, it's like for god's glory and
my good. I almost got that backwards.
That'd be very bad.
My glory.
Yeah. That'd that'd be really bad. You know,
there's,
I I I need well, one, I need
to read that book. I have never read
it, I don't think.
Yeah. I think it's 24 that just came
out. Okay. And then I definitely haven't read
it. And
but that idea of, like, okay. So when
the offense comes to my mind, I think
from my own experience, when the when
when that offense comes to my mind, there
is something, I don't know how else to
put it, sort of therapeutic or cathartic about
telling someone else. Yeah. Like saying,
you wanna know how badly I was wronged?
Like, it
I I don't know how else to describe
it except that it feels good. It it
almost feels like some relief.
And I feel like that's maybe part of
that burden that is
the price that you pay to go, I'm
gonna deal with this a different way. So
instead of taking it to somebody else who
will just go, yeah, I can't believe what
a jerk that person is, I'm gonna
wrestle with God about it and work through
it with him.
And that does that's like a kind of
work that's costly, and
it doesn't have the sense of maybe it
has longer term
relief,
but not short term in the same way.
I don't know. Maybe that's some of what
Keller's getting at. No. He has he actually
has,
four appendix in the back of the book,
and one of them on forgiveness practice speaking
to just what you're talking to. Okay. You
know, like,
one of one you know, he's got some
steps, but one of the ways is,
that we demonstrate forgiveness is by refusing to
cut the person down to others. Yeah. You
refuse to diminish them in the eyes of
others by innuendo or spin or hint or
gossip
or direct slander. Don't run them down to
others under the guise of warning people about
them.
Don't run them down,
to others under the guise of seeking sympathy
and support
and sharing your hurt.
That's
Yeah.
Yeah. That's
that's a spirit empowered
thing because that's the that's the human response.
Like, if I can just get you
to buy into this, you're gonna understand just
how how terrible this was. Yeah. And if
enough people agree that that person is terrible,
that will help me.
Yeah. I'm gonna feel better about me. Yeah.
And,
we we know a ministry down in Mexico
City Mhmm.
That we just sent a team there to.
They they get to deal with some stuff
that is beyond imagination. And so I think
we all have,
I don't I man, maybe we all don't.
But but there's probably something in our past.
It's like you don't you don't know the
pattern, the the ongoing rejection, the ongoing betrayal,
the ongoing offense. You don't know. Right?
The the thing, like,
the deep, deep
cutting thing that happened. Uh-huh.
And the answer is, no, I don't. Uh-huh.
You know, I said it this weekend. I
don't know what that is.
But I know
that this parable
is saying
your debt was 14,000,000,000.
Was it 14,000,000,000?
Alright. Were you forgiven 14,000,000,000?
Was this person 14,000,000,000
in debt to you?
And
it's just it's just a
a refusal
to admit
how awesome
the gospel is
in the forgiveness
of me
that would really
keep me in a place of saying, I'm
not gonna forgive that person. Yeah. Because I
I I've lost I've lost the grasp. Yeah.
I've lost the grasp of how amazing
the grace of God truly is
that that I have been brought from death
to life.
Mhmm. And I've I've I've forgotten
along the way or what you said earlier.
I never do it. Yeah. And it's important
that we would go, wait, this isn't
this isn't just theory. This is really important.
And one of the things that I've seen
in real practical ways
and for years, I've called this the golden
key. Forgiveness is the golden key that unlocks
life.
It really does. And as Jesus teaches
at the end of the model prayer,
hey, if you don't forgive, you won't be
forgiven. What's he talking about there? And we
could debate that. We don't really have time
to debate all that. But but all that
to say is there's something powerful
when somebody
goes to
a deep wound and the spirit brings healing
and wholeness and forgiveness to it? And,
the the ministry down in Mexico City, El
Pozo de Vida, that we just sent a
team to,
They have
just story after story of,
young girls,
tragic,
terrible,
beyond description,
going through
this process of
forgiveness to people that the world would say
should never be forgiven. Not
not like,
oh, it it would be really hard to
forgive them. The world's version is
actually,
you're foolish to forgive them. Yeah. It's wrong
to forgive them. You never should. It's like
we talked about this weekend. It's like Lamech
in Genesis Yeah. Chapter four.
Like, I'm gonna I'm gonna keep the revenge
on you. It's gonna be limitless
revenge.
And Jesus takes that, flips it upside down,
flips it or or I wanna say, flips
right side up, and says, no. What I
wanna see is
limitless forgiveness. Mhmm. Limitless. And it doesn't have
any balance.
And so I just have to choose to
believe while I don't understand the hurt that
anybody experienced.
I do understand that this is really clear.
Scripture seems to be super clear.
Forgiveness isn't optional,
no matter what the offense was.
And it's mind blowing.
It's mind blowing. It doesn't seem fair.
And so I think to be able to
go like, okay, if this is something people
are
struggling with,
if it's a repeated pattern that you're struggling
with,
it is worth it
to get
counseling, help,
a resource like, Keller's book,
and actually go, you know what? I'm I'm
gonna finally address this in my life, whatever
that is. And don't believe you know, to
hear some of those, yeah, some of those
stories from El Pos or Davida, you go,
okay. There's a kind of forgiveness that's possible
that I wouldn't think is possible.
And that's good for us to be reminded
of because if you're in a situation and
you say, not in my situation. I can't.
I could never ever forgive this person.
I think the starting point is just going,
Jesus says it's possible.
Otherwise, he wouldn't say
it's required.
So he says it's possible.
So I go, okay. So don't freak out.
Jesus is patient.
Just know it's possible. So
start to
what you tried so far hasn't worked. Okay.
But really working through it with a with
a
with
a good
counselor,
a therapist, you know, like
okay.
Don't you don't have to go into it
going, well, no. No. No. This I can
never forgive this person. Jesus says you can,
and he's gonna help you do it. And,
also, there are some people and resources and
processes that will help you do it. Oh,
just go I I I'm again, maybe it's
just, oh, it's easy for you to say
boo bar. But I think that's a starting
point for somebody. Just to go, Jesus seems
to expect that this is possible. So even
though I haven't been able to figure it
out yet, I'm gonna act like it's possible
and try something. No. I think that's really
good advice.
I think it's possible. So I'm gonna try
something.
And and then I would also think that
that it is important that we would give
a caution.
That if you are in a place of
saying,
no, it's not possible Mhmm.
And I would never.
It does now I think the end of
where you just read earlier, you really need
me to go back and read that. Yeah.
Reckon what with what you're saying to Jesus.
If you're saying oh, because
because then you are saying no.
You're wrong.
Yeah. I'm right. Yeah. Yeah.
And we do that sometimes. Yeah. I do
that all the time. Yeah. But Jesus is
just, I think that's why he's saying that.
It's a wake up call. This is what's
at stake.
Don't don't live that way. Don't live calling
God a liar.
Yeah. And just like at the end of
the prayer back in the Sermon on the
Mount, the model prayer, back in chapter six,
hey, listen. You're gonna forgive. You're not gonna
be forgiven. Here, it's like, listen. Uh-huh. Hey,
pay attention. This is really, really important. And
and as we go further into
Matthew's gospel in the new year, in 2026,
we're gonna work, chapter 29 all the way
to the end of Matthew's gospel on Easter
weekend.
Super excited about that series. But but as
we do that, we'll see more, like, this
isn't fair, this isn't you know,
like, according to the world's economy, this doesn't
seem fair.
But to be able to say,
even if you say,
I know
I'm supposed to.
Like, if you say that,
but I just can't right now. Uh-huh. I
would I would say don't
don't land there. Yeah. Don't land there. That's
not a safe landing.
That's different than,
I don't think I can Yeah. I don't
know how I can. Right. I don't know
how I could. Yeah.
But Jesus
says it's possible,
so I'm going to
follow Jesus on this path. Yeah. And it
may take a couple years. It may take
it may be a supernatural
act of God that happens
in a millisecond,
or it could take you five years to
be able to work through a process.
And I'd and as long as you're you're
doing the I'm following Jesus
on a spirit empowered journey
of transformation
over time. Mhmm. Like, I'm I'm I'm not
gonna be who I was. This is gonna
transform me. Mhmm. And then I keep working
on it, and I keep you know? And
and then along the way, if I think
he is gracious and kind in it, and
there's a real
allegiance question that we demonstrate our allegiance to
Jesus by saying, I want to want that.
I I want to want what Jesus wants
from me.
Right? I mean, like, I'm six steps removed
from there. Uh-huh. But, man, I I wanna
be five. Yeah. And then when I get
there, I wanna be four. I I still
don't know how it's gonna happen, but Jesus
says it's possible. Uh-huh. So I'm gonna go
to three. I'm gonna go to two. I'm
gonna go to one. I'm gonna keep at
it,
But I feel like if we just go,
I know that's what Jesus says, but that's
too hard.
I think we need to be careful.
Like, be careful. And that seems to be
the warning. Yeah. That's the warning. Yeah.
So this was kind of a heavy one.
I I was gonna,
I was gonna,
unleash some things here. Oh, yeah. This was
a little heavy for the sound effects. Yeah,
man. So maybe maybe, Hanukkah will unleash some
of those. But we do we do need
no. Yeah. Okay. So we need to we
need to just talk a little bit about
Tim Bubar. Everybody loves Tim. Right? Does everybody
love Tim?
I don't know.
But but this is one of those things
that Mark Hoffman and I would say to
you all the time.
And you never knew what we were talking
about.
Oh, Hercules. Hercules. Hercules.
Hercules.
You guys would quote that, and I thought
you were I just thought you were quoting
the Disney there's a Disney animated movie called
Hercules, I think.
I just thought it was
Still, dude, this
still makes me laugh.
Yeah. But instead
Instead, it's from
it's Eddie it's Eddie Murphy. Right? It is.
Yeah.
In some sort of crazy costume,
which became his thing, kind of.
Playing big mama. Yeah. And you guys you
and Mark referenced it last week. Oh, that's
how that came up. That's why Jesse put
it on there. In last week's podcast, you
and Mark, Mark used that as a verb
just like he uses Matthew 18 as a
verb. He said, I can Hercules and Herculize
some Hercules somebody all day long. But yeah.
Yeah. We know we use we use that
all the time. Yeah. Hercules. Hercules.
Anyway,
so as we come to
this point so with that, as we get
ready to head into this week, Tim Boobar,
do you have a final word for us?
Word.
Very practical. This week, I think Wednesday, I
think that's what it is. But this week
in Live It Out, we're gonna read a
big chunk of Joseph's story.
So my last word is don't skip it.
I highly encourage you to listen to it.
Just click the link if you're on, you
know, on the website. Just click the link
or listen to it in an app. Listen
to that story and let the whole just
engage with the whole story.
And it's a story of forgiveness, and it's
profound and powerful, and it's something only God
can do. And knowing and believing that story,
I think, can have an impact on your
own.
That's good. And I I almost never
add a tag on here. But if somebody's
still listening to the podcast at this point,
they're committed. Yeah. And so I would ask
if you would do the survey that's in
this week's wait it out. We're setting a
baseline as we're going in the catalyst campaign.
We're setting a baseline for where we are
when it comes to spiritual transformation. We need
your participation
in order for us to set a great
baseline.
And then over twelve, twenty four, thirty six
months. And so,
it is something that we're gonna do now.
And six weeks from now, we're gonna ask
you to do a follow-up. And then twelve
months, twenty four months, thirty six
months, really so we can just say,
how is God at work and what we're
doing, and, just a way for us to
try and put a gauge on that. So
if you would do that this week, greatly
appreciated.
That'll be cool. Have a great week.