1
00:00:11,279 --> 00:00:13,380
Welcome back to Live It Out a podcast.

2
00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:15,859
We are in the last week of series,

3
00:00:16,024 --> 00:00:16,765
Real Life

4
00:00:17,385 --> 00:00:19,785
Jesus, His Kingdom, and You, Tim Boobar. What's

5
00:00:19,785 --> 00:00:21,704
going on today, dude? Let's do it. Let's

6
00:00:21,704 --> 00:00:24,265
record a podcast. Let's record a podcast. And

7
00:00:24,265 --> 00:00:25,945
while we're here, we have microphones in front

8
00:00:25,945 --> 00:00:26,765
of us. Yeah.

9
00:00:27,144 --> 00:00:30,664
In this studio setup, thanks to one Jess

10
00:00:30,664 --> 00:00:31,164
Jones.

11
00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:34,159
We found that out lately. That's a recent

12
00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:36,719
discovery. Yeah. Did you know that? I knew

13
00:00:36,719 --> 00:00:38,320
it. I I mean I mean, no. I

14
00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:39,600
didn't know it before. I know it now.

15
00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:42,880
Out on a circle. Right. I think, man,

16
00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:44,159
did I know it before this moment that

17
00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,060
Jesse Jones, production director, Two Rivers Church,

18
00:00:47,734 --> 00:00:49,895
is is not only just cool with, he

19
00:00:49,895 --> 00:00:51,414
preferred to go by Jess. Yeah. It's sort

20
00:00:51,414 --> 00:00:53,195
of been, like, his I think his typical

21
00:00:53,894 --> 00:00:57,094
His typical nickname or thing. Yeah. Short name.

22
00:00:57,094 --> 00:00:59,414
Yeah. And we were all shocked and and

23
00:00:59,414 --> 00:01:01,015
awe. And now he hears that we're talking

24
00:01:01,015 --> 00:01:02,375
about it, and he doesn't like it. Looking

25
00:01:02,375 --> 00:01:05,040
at us. He's looking at us. So, yeah,

26
00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:06,560
I'm gonna tell you if you if you

27
00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:07,700
like the sound effects,

28
00:01:08,239 --> 00:01:09,140
tell Jess,

29
00:01:09,599 --> 00:01:11,760
hey, dude. Awesome. If you don't like the

30
00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:12,500
sound effects,

31
00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:14,260
don't say anything.

32
00:01:16,334 --> 00:01:18,015
But he's given us some new ones that

33
00:01:18,015 --> 00:01:20,015
we get to drop in today. Alright. So

34
00:01:20,015 --> 00:01:21,155
it's gonna be fun.

35
00:01:21,454 --> 00:01:23,555
Hey. This weekend, we did talk about,

36
00:01:25,295 --> 00:01:27,454
the topic of forgiveness. Now forgiveness is one

37
00:01:27,454 --> 00:01:28,194
of those things,

38
00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:31,040
super easy to say. We started talking about

39
00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:32,659
that. Easy to say. Well, forgive.

40
00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:35,119
Really hard to do, but even more than

41
00:01:35,119 --> 00:01:37,759
that, it seems so simple and yet it's

42
00:01:37,759 --> 00:01:40,079
really complicated. And so real life with Jesus

43
00:01:40,079 --> 00:01:40,899
in his kingdom

44
00:01:41,254 --> 00:01:44,215
is fueled by grace, demonstrated by forgiveness. It

45
00:01:44,215 --> 00:01:46,555
really in this teaching in chapter 18,

46
00:01:46,935 --> 00:01:47,674
the culmination

47
00:01:48,134 --> 00:01:49,274
of of this

48
00:01:49,814 --> 00:01:50,314
teaching,

49
00:01:50,774 --> 00:01:53,094
hey, who's the greatest in the kingdom? And

50
00:01:53,094 --> 00:01:53,994
Jesus says,

51
00:01:54,579 --> 00:01:56,979
it's those who enter into the kingdom like

52
00:01:56,979 --> 00:02:00,019
a child, humble, independent. Right? And those are

53
00:02:00,019 --> 00:02:00,599
the ones

54
00:02:00,979 --> 00:02:02,340
that are great in the kingdom. So the

55
00:02:02,340 --> 00:02:03,619
people who are in the kingdom are the

56
00:02:03,619 --> 00:02:05,140
greatest in the kingdom because in order to

57
00:02:05,140 --> 00:02:06,579
enter the kingdom, you have to become like

58
00:02:06,579 --> 00:02:08,500
a child. And then he goes on to

59
00:02:08,500 --> 00:02:10,784
describe that life. And so over the past

60
00:02:10,784 --> 00:02:12,544
two weeks, we saw that. Saw it played

61
00:02:12,544 --> 00:02:13,604
out last week

62
00:02:13,985 --> 00:02:17,185
that as, Jesus left off with talking about

63
00:02:17,185 --> 00:02:18,485
the shepherd who goes

64
00:02:18,864 --> 00:02:21,824
the week before into last week, Mark talked

65
00:02:21,824 --> 00:02:22,324
about

66
00:02:22,784 --> 00:02:23,284
how

67
00:02:26,530 --> 00:02:27,669
how is it that we,

68
00:02:28,530 --> 00:02:30,930
pursue people, really what it is. Right? Like,

69
00:02:30,930 --> 00:02:32,949
what's got reduced to church discipline

70
00:02:33,489 --> 00:02:35,810
Right. Is really the pursuit of people, which

71
00:02:35,810 --> 00:02:38,229
is kind of funny. I mean, for years.

72
00:02:38,289 --> 00:02:40,150
In fact, we invented, like, a

73
00:02:40,665 --> 00:02:42,905
we invented, like, a verb. Yeah. What is

74
00:02:42,905 --> 00:02:43,564
it, Tim?

75
00:02:44,745 --> 00:02:47,485
The the infinitive form is to Matthew 18

76
00:02:47,544 --> 00:02:49,705
or to Matthew 18 someone. That's really what

77
00:02:49,705 --> 00:02:51,705
it is. So Yeah. So what if they

78
00:02:51,705 --> 00:02:53,784
got Matthew 18? Did somebody did they Matthew

79
00:02:53,784 --> 00:02:54,685
18 you?

80
00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:56,840
That's what that was that's what you said,

81
00:02:56,840 --> 00:02:58,840
actually. Yeah. And so now it's like, oh,

82
00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:00,680
yeah. Now it it has all kind of

83
00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:02,759
variations because it's now, like, okay. Did they

84
00:03:02,759 --> 00:03:04,780
did they actually forgive you? So,

85
00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:07,319
once again, it is it's one of those

86
00:03:07,319 --> 00:03:07,819
things

87
00:03:08,199 --> 00:03:09,020
that is,

88
00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:10,540
man,

89
00:03:11,935 --> 00:03:13,234
it's far more complicated

90
00:03:14,014 --> 00:03:15,074
when you start

91
00:03:15,614 --> 00:03:16,834
digging into it.

92
00:03:18,094 --> 00:03:20,834
And I think starting applying to real life

93
00:03:21,215 --> 00:03:21,715
situations.

94
00:03:22,174 --> 00:03:23,935
Like that kind of digging in, really. It

95
00:03:23,935 --> 00:03:24,995
does. Right.

96
00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:25,980
Because

97
00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:26,939
this parable

98
00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:28,020
just

99
00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:31,319
I mean Okay. One of the things I

100
00:03:31,319 --> 00:03:34,060
really liked about this section through Matthew,

101
00:03:35,719 --> 00:03:37,420
chapter 13 into 18,

102
00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:38,460
is,

103
00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:40,620
it just is.

104
00:03:41,454 --> 00:03:43,694
Like, you don't sometimes with scripture, you have

105
00:03:43,694 --> 00:03:45,375
to work through the nuance, and and we've

106
00:03:45,375 --> 00:03:47,534
learned that some places along the way. You

107
00:03:47,534 --> 00:03:50,734
know, like, okay, what's the location? What's that

108
00:03:50,734 --> 00:03:53,074
communicating? And all those kinds of things.

109
00:03:53,375 --> 00:03:55,715
And you have to to cross the cultural

110
00:03:55,775 --> 00:03:56,275
divide.

111
00:03:57,110 --> 00:03:58,250
And in this one,

112
00:03:58,629 --> 00:04:00,169
it's it's really

113
00:04:01,509 --> 00:04:04,229
it's really as simple as it appears Mhmm.

114
00:04:04,389 --> 00:04:06,009
That, wait a minute.

115
00:04:06,629 --> 00:04:08,629
You've got things all out of whack. You've

116
00:04:08,629 --> 00:04:09,370
been forgiven,

117
00:04:10,870 --> 00:04:11,610
yet you

118
00:04:12,165 --> 00:04:12,665
you

119
00:04:13,044 --> 00:04:15,145
the debt is insurmountable,

120
00:04:16,564 --> 00:04:20,105
yet you won't forgive someone else. And it's

121
00:04:20,404 --> 00:04:22,884
it's still a debt, and it's still a

122
00:04:24,199 --> 00:04:25,419
it's not inconsequential.

123
00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:27,259
Three months wage. Right?

124
00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:30,040
It's the the debt that somebody has against,

125
00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:32,060
the other, you know, the

126
00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:34,779
the first servant who was forgiven.

127
00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,620
This weekend mentioned, you know, somewhere between $1,314,000,000,000

128
00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:40,060
dollars worth of debt,

129
00:04:40,814 --> 00:04:42,654
which I didn't comment on this weekend. It

130
00:04:42,654 --> 00:04:45,055
it like, if we're gonna really pick apart

131
00:04:45,055 --> 00:04:48,095
and over over analyze the parable Uh-huh. We

132
00:04:48,095 --> 00:04:50,115
could be like, wow. Well, that was really

133
00:04:50,735 --> 00:04:51,555
a a terrible

134
00:04:51,935 --> 00:04:54,415
king that gave him that much credit. Let

135
00:04:54,415 --> 00:04:56,069
him get that much in debt. Yeah.

136
00:04:56,470 --> 00:04:58,550
Yeah. And it's just a perfect it's just

137
00:04:58,550 --> 00:05:00,170
a perfect example of,

138
00:05:01,430 --> 00:05:02,490
doing things to

139
00:05:03,110 --> 00:05:04,490
a a parable that we should do. Overcooking

140
00:05:04,550 --> 00:05:06,870
the parable. Overcooking the parable. Yeah. All I

141
00:05:06,870 --> 00:05:08,629
had to say though that that it is

142
00:05:08,629 --> 00:05:09,129
this,

143
00:05:10,069 --> 00:05:10,569
hyperbolic

144
00:05:11,865 --> 00:05:14,105
distance between the two examples. And we talked

145
00:05:14,105 --> 00:05:16,605
before. Often I think we have.

146
00:05:17,545 --> 00:05:18,845
I get confused sometimes.

147
00:05:19,305 --> 00:05:19,805
K.

148
00:05:20,185 --> 00:05:22,025
We have so many conversations. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

149
00:05:22,025 --> 00:05:23,085
What did we say

150
00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:25,240
on the podcast? What was said in a

151
00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:26,839
sermon? What was said in the hallway? Yes.

152
00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:28,360
That kind of thing. Yeah. Or what did

153
00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:30,279
I just walk into your office and sit

154
00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:31,339
down and unload?

155
00:05:32,039 --> 00:05:33,500
What was the one this week?

156
00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:36,120
Hanukkah. That was the one this week. Right?

157
00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,214
Yeah. Yeah. Just sit down and dump it

158
00:05:39,214 --> 00:05:40,194
all in your mouth.

159
00:05:40,574 --> 00:05:41,875
I'm a verbal processor.

160
00:05:42,894 --> 00:05:44,254
It yeah. I need I need that. You

161
00:05:44,254 --> 00:05:46,654
don't believe what I learned about Hanukkah. What

162
00:05:46,654 --> 00:05:47,474
the Hanukkah?

163
00:05:47,854 --> 00:05:50,194
Yeah. Anyway, all that to say,

164
00:05:51,740 --> 00:05:53,419
oh, that would be cool. Maybe in December,

165
00:05:53,419 --> 00:05:55,339
we can do a podcast on Hanukkah. Yeah.

166
00:05:55,339 --> 00:05:56,939
It just came to me right now. Okay.

167
00:05:56,939 --> 00:05:57,759
Let's do it.

168
00:05:58,060 --> 00:05:59,919
Let's go. Let's do it. Okay.

169
00:06:00,379 --> 00:06:01,439
All I had to say,

170
00:06:01,899 --> 00:06:03,759
when you when you come to this text,

171
00:06:04,425 --> 00:06:06,824
it's the ultimate mirror. And we talked about

172
00:06:06,824 --> 00:06:08,824
that this weekend. It's just pick up the

173
00:06:08,824 --> 00:06:11,165
mirror, look, and go. If

174
00:06:11,705 --> 00:06:12,205
if

175
00:06:12,745 --> 00:06:14,044
you if you have this

176
00:06:14,665 --> 00:06:16,824
space and place in your life where if

177
00:06:16,824 --> 00:06:17,324
somebody

178
00:06:17,704 --> 00:06:18,509
offends you

179
00:06:18,910 --> 00:06:21,230
or they do they do something, it is

180
00:06:21,230 --> 00:06:23,310
an offense. It doesn't mean it's it was

181
00:06:23,310 --> 00:06:25,009
insignificant. It could be a really

182
00:06:25,389 --> 00:06:28,029
significant thing. But you're like, I'm not gonna

183
00:06:28,029 --> 00:06:30,210
forgive you because you don't deserve it.

184
00:06:31,334 --> 00:06:33,334
The question of whether or not you believe

185
00:06:33,334 --> 00:06:35,995
the gospel actually comes into play. Yeah.

186
00:06:36,375 --> 00:06:38,235
Like, do you really grasp the gospel?

187
00:06:38,935 --> 00:06:39,435
Because

188
00:06:40,615 --> 00:06:42,694
the amount of forgiveness that you've been given

189
00:06:42,935 --> 00:06:43,435
Right.

190
00:06:44,490 --> 00:06:47,949
Should change your perspective on forgiveness. Right? Like,

191
00:06:50,490 --> 00:06:52,509
yeah. It's all it's like it's not a

192
00:06:52,889 --> 00:06:55,790
rule about you're not allowed to be forgiven

193
00:06:55,850 --> 00:06:57,610
if you don't forgive. This is the way

194
00:06:57,610 --> 00:06:58,675
I I kind of have been thinking about

195
00:06:58,675 --> 00:06:59,634
it. It's not like so much that it's

196
00:06:59,634 --> 00:07:00,775
a rule. Like,

197
00:07:01,634 --> 00:07:02,675
well, this is the rule. If you don't

198
00:07:02,675 --> 00:07:04,935
forgive, you can't be forgiven. It's like if

199
00:07:05,395 --> 00:07:07,555
you can't forgive someone because you don't think

200
00:07:07,555 --> 00:07:09,715
they're they're worthy of forgiveness, then you probably

201
00:07:09,715 --> 00:07:10,375
have not

202
00:07:10,949 --> 00:07:11,449
grasped

203
00:07:11,750 --> 00:07:13,430
what God has done for you, and that's

204
00:07:13,430 --> 00:07:15,129
the issue. Yeah. Yeah.

205
00:07:16,149 --> 00:07:18,810
And so we talked about how we're called,

206
00:07:19,189 --> 00:07:20,490
to cancel offenses,

207
00:07:21,029 --> 00:07:22,490
not track them. Mhmm.

208
00:07:23,110 --> 00:07:24,490
What an anti

209
00:07:26,064 --> 00:07:27,125
worldly approach.

210
00:07:27,985 --> 00:07:29,764
Right? It it's just totally

211
00:07:30,225 --> 00:07:31,685
contrary to the world,

212
00:07:32,225 --> 00:07:33,204
which then,

213
00:07:33,665 --> 00:07:35,504
for us as followers of Jesus, we should

214
00:07:35,504 --> 00:07:37,985
say, wait. If it's contrary to the world

215
00:07:37,985 --> 00:07:38,485
system,

216
00:07:39,345 --> 00:07:40,600
that likely

217
00:07:41,139 --> 00:07:43,800
sounds like the kingdom of God. Because it's

218
00:07:44,180 --> 00:07:45,560
the world's upside down.

219
00:07:46,180 --> 00:07:48,199
Jesus came and he flips things upright.

220
00:07:48,740 --> 00:07:50,519
And upright looks like

221
00:07:51,699 --> 00:07:55,495
instead of tracking how many times a person

222
00:07:55,495 --> 00:07:55,995
has

223
00:07:56,774 --> 00:07:57,675
wronged me,

224
00:07:58,375 --> 00:08:00,955
I'm I'm canceling offenses as they happen.

225
00:08:03,814 --> 00:08:04,314
Crazy.

226
00:08:04,615 --> 00:08:06,074
It is crazy, and it makes,

227
00:08:07,254 --> 00:08:07,754
everybody

228
00:08:08,670 --> 00:08:09,569
a little nervous

229
00:08:10,509 --> 00:08:11,009
because

230
00:08:11,389 --> 00:08:12,290
it sounds

231
00:08:12,670 --> 00:08:15,389
dangerous to live that way. It kinda you

232
00:08:15,389 --> 00:08:16,370
know, like, either

233
00:08:16,750 --> 00:08:17,490
you're gonna

234
00:08:19,230 --> 00:08:21,389
either you're gonna get yourself into trouble because

235
00:08:21,389 --> 00:08:23,310
you're gonna forgive somebody who needs to be

236
00:08:23,735 --> 00:08:26,214
who shouldn't doesn't deserve forgiveness, or you're gonna

237
00:08:26,214 --> 00:08:27,975
make me feel really bad about myself because

238
00:08:27,975 --> 00:08:29,654
you're way more forgiving than I'm willing to

239
00:08:29,654 --> 00:08:30,875
be. You know, like,

240
00:08:31,334 --> 00:08:33,254
when someone is that's that that I mean,

241
00:08:33,254 --> 00:08:34,615
I just think that happens a lot with

242
00:08:34,615 --> 00:08:36,855
the way of Jesus. It is countercultural enough

243
00:08:36,855 --> 00:08:37,355
that

244
00:08:37,894 --> 00:08:38,955
it ends up sounding

245
00:08:40,830 --> 00:08:41,330
disconcerting

246
00:08:42,509 --> 00:08:43,649
because it's not

247
00:08:44,110 --> 00:08:46,290
it's not normal. Right. Yeah.

248
00:08:46,670 --> 00:08:49,809
So I I recommended, Keller's book, Forgiveness.

249
00:08:51,070 --> 00:08:52,529
Difficult title. Forgive.

250
00:08:53,095 --> 00:08:54,535
You know, forgive. That's what the book is

251
00:08:54,535 --> 00:08:55,035
called.

252
00:08:55,575 --> 00:08:57,654
Why should I and how can I? And

253
00:08:57,654 --> 00:08:59,695
he talked about in it that it does

254
00:09:00,054 --> 00:09:03,575
forgiveness actually does cost us something. Mhmm. We

255
00:09:03,575 --> 00:09:04,134
have to

256
00:09:04,774 --> 00:09:06,315
it's not just like, oh

257
00:09:07,409 --> 00:09:09,570
oh, no big deal. It means wait. There's

258
00:09:09,570 --> 00:09:11,570
a there's a real offense that happened. I

259
00:09:11,570 --> 00:09:12,070
was

260
00:09:12,450 --> 00:09:12,950
harmed

261
00:09:14,209 --> 00:09:16,209
maybe really in a physical kind of way,

262
00:09:16,209 --> 00:09:17,029
but definitely

263
00:09:17,409 --> 00:09:18,149
in a

264
00:09:18,850 --> 00:09:19,350
emotional,

265
00:09:20,875 --> 00:09:23,355
kind of way. There's a weight to it.

266
00:09:23,355 --> 00:09:26,334
There's there's real damage that was done.

267
00:09:27,034 --> 00:09:30,315
Instead of exacting payment from another person, I'm

268
00:09:30,315 --> 00:09:32,815
willing to take the payment upon myself.

269
00:09:33,674 --> 00:09:34,495
Mhmm. And that's

270
00:09:35,309 --> 00:09:37,309
really starting to connect it to the gospel.

271
00:09:37,309 --> 00:09:39,649
And so we really did, this weekend, emphasize

272
00:09:39,710 --> 00:09:42,210
just out of the gate, this is complicated.

273
00:09:42,269 --> 00:09:43,490
And because it's complicated,

274
00:09:44,509 --> 00:09:46,290
use the parable as a mirror,

275
00:09:46,830 --> 00:09:49,330
but don't stop there. Go through process.

276
00:09:50,764 --> 00:09:52,845
In other words, if if this is something,

277
00:09:52,845 --> 00:09:55,404
like, you're you're like, I have this issue

278
00:09:55,404 --> 00:09:57,165
from way back in my history, and I

279
00:09:57,165 --> 00:09:58,304
still haven't forgiven.

280
00:09:58,605 --> 00:10:00,845
And I know I need to, but I

281
00:10:00,845 --> 00:10:02,304
can't. And all that like,

282
00:10:02,684 --> 00:10:04,705
reach out for help. Yeah.

283
00:10:05,330 --> 00:10:08,049
Right? Right. Because it's complicated. Like, I mean,

284
00:10:08,049 --> 00:10:08,629
you like,

285
00:10:10,529 --> 00:10:10,929
human,

286
00:10:11,570 --> 00:10:14,389
mind, heart, emotions, and experiences are complicated,

287
00:10:15,090 --> 00:10:15,590
and

288
00:10:17,714 --> 00:10:19,794
relationships are complicated, and this gets into all

289
00:10:19,794 --> 00:10:21,394
of that. So, yeah, don't just try and

290
00:10:21,394 --> 00:10:22,134
go, well,

291
00:10:23,235 --> 00:10:24,434
nothing I can do about it, or I

292
00:10:24,434 --> 00:10:26,855
can just figure this out. Yeah. I think

293
00:10:27,315 --> 00:10:28,054
being able

294
00:10:28,995 --> 00:10:30,214
to be humble enough

295
00:10:30,799 --> 00:10:33,199
and maybe desperate enough to say, I I

296
00:10:33,199 --> 00:10:35,120
need somebody to help me sort this out

297
00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:36,659
is really important. Yeah.

298
00:10:37,759 --> 00:10:38,659
Because then

299
00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:41,679
it's one thing just to say it is

300
00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:41,759
a

301
00:10:43,784 --> 00:10:45,245
it's a spirit empowered

302
00:10:45,704 --> 00:10:48,024
kind of thing. That it's, you know, hey,

303
00:10:48,024 --> 00:10:49,704
you can't do this. We we know that.

304
00:10:49,704 --> 00:10:52,264
We can't follow Jesus on our own. It's

305
00:10:52,264 --> 00:10:54,904
only through the holy spirit that we're born

306
00:10:54,904 --> 00:10:55,404
again,

307
00:10:55,860 --> 00:10:58,100
made a new creation in Christ, empowered by

308
00:10:58,100 --> 00:11:00,440
the holy spirit who's resident within us,

309
00:11:00,820 --> 00:11:04,019
that we are a new creation. And so

310
00:11:04,019 --> 00:11:05,860
if we're going to forgive that kind of

311
00:11:05,860 --> 00:11:08,899
way, it is a spirit empowered kind of

312
00:11:08,899 --> 00:11:09,399
thing.

313
00:11:10,085 --> 00:11:12,404
But that's one thing to say, hey, I

314
00:11:12,404 --> 00:11:14,425
believe that that's factually true.

315
00:11:14,965 --> 00:11:16,985
But it's another thing to actually

316
00:11:17,684 --> 00:11:19,445
do it. Whereas we talked about forgiveness as

317
00:11:19,445 --> 00:11:21,445
a journey with Jesus empowered by the spirit

318
00:11:21,445 --> 00:11:22,184
over time.

319
00:11:22,725 --> 00:11:24,325
That's, I think, where we need a lot

320
00:11:24,325 --> 00:11:24,904
of help.

321
00:11:25,580 --> 00:11:28,379
Because forgiveness begins with a decision, but it

322
00:11:28,379 --> 00:11:30,779
doesn't end there. Mhmm. It's a it's a

323
00:11:30,779 --> 00:11:33,259
beginning. I I decide. Yes. I know it's

324
00:11:33,259 --> 00:11:35,500
forgiveness, and now I have to let that

325
00:11:35,500 --> 00:11:37,980
play out over and over and over again.

326
00:11:37,980 --> 00:11:38,799
I have to

327
00:11:39,495 --> 00:11:41,654
stay at it over and over and over

328
00:11:41,654 --> 00:11:44,315
again as it as it transforms

329
00:11:44,855 --> 00:11:47,035
me, actually Uh-huh. Over time.

330
00:11:48,054 --> 00:11:50,615
I had somebody say to me recently, it's

331
00:11:50,615 --> 00:11:52,615
something they learned was, like I can't remember

332
00:11:52,615 --> 00:11:54,240
exactly what it is. But it's, like, it's

333
00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:56,000
one thing to forgive like, you can forgive

334
00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:56,899
someone for,

335
00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:01,200
I can't remember the terminology they use. Basically,

336
00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:03,940
you can forgive forgive someone for the

337
00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:06,419
action they did,

338
00:12:07,065 --> 00:12:08,904
but then it's another thing to forgive them

339
00:12:08,904 --> 00:12:11,225
for the, like, the con the results of

340
00:12:11,225 --> 00:12:11,965
that action.

341
00:12:12,425 --> 00:12:14,105
So I can go, I okay. I forgive

342
00:12:14,105 --> 00:12:15,945
you for that thing you did, but then

343
00:12:15,945 --> 00:12:19,144
I suffered consequences from that. And I still

344
00:12:19,144 --> 00:12:20,125
am. And

345
00:12:20,459 --> 00:12:22,639
that's another process is now

346
00:12:25,339 --> 00:12:27,740
I forgiving you for how I have felt

347
00:12:27,740 --> 00:12:30,379
or what I've gone through since that thing

348
00:12:30,379 --> 00:12:32,699
that you said or did. And that really

349
00:12:32,699 --> 00:12:34,299
does it was helpful to me because it

350
00:12:34,299 --> 00:12:35,985
just highlighted that how much of it is

351
00:12:35,985 --> 00:12:38,865
a process with Jesus. And we should I

352
00:12:38,865 --> 00:12:40,565
think when you hear Jesus

353
00:12:41,264 --> 00:12:41,764
say

354
00:12:43,745 --> 00:12:46,085
to Peter, you know, yeah, you're gonna

355
00:12:46,785 --> 00:12:48,705
forgive your brother over and over again. And

356
00:12:48,705 --> 00:12:50,804
when you hear this story, you should say

357
00:12:50,980 --> 00:12:53,379
forgiveness is the living in forgiveness is the

358
00:12:53,379 --> 00:12:55,139
right way to live. So I should say

359
00:12:55,139 --> 00:12:57,480
that, but I also shouldn't say,

360
00:12:58,820 --> 00:13:00,820
oh, I can't do that, or I did

361
00:13:00,820 --> 00:13:02,519
it and I'm done. You know, like,

362
00:13:03,004 --> 00:13:05,644
to agree with Jesus is to agree that

363
00:13:05,644 --> 00:13:07,644
I think that there's a process to it.

364
00:13:07,644 --> 00:13:10,365
Yeah. Yeah. So I I wanna read a

365
00:13:10,365 --> 00:13:11,584
little excerpt

366
00:13:11,884 --> 00:13:12,384
from,

367
00:13:13,964 --> 00:13:15,345
Keller's book, Forgive.

368
00:13:15,779 --> 00:13:16,279
And

369
00:13:16,740 --> 00:13:18,440
it it's about what forgiveness

370
00:13:18,740 --> 00:13:19,240
is.

371
00:13:19,779 --> 00:13:21,720
So he the the book itself,

372
00:13:22,500 --> 00:13:24,340
I just introduced it. He used a quote

373
00:13:24,340 --> 00:13:25,860
to kinda set up the idea of forgiveness.

374
00:13:25,860 --> 00:13:25,940
But,

375
00:13:27,875 --> 00:13:30,034
in the book, it's in particular, the whole

376
00:13:30,034 --> 00:13:32,034
book is kind of about this parable that

377
00:13:32,034 --> 00:13:33,174
Jesus tells about

378
00:13:33,794 --> 00:13:34,294
forgiveness

379
00:13:34,674 --> 00:13:36,355
here in Matthew at the end of chapter

380
00:13:36,355 --> 00:13:36,855
18.

381
00:13:37,394 --> 00:13:38,695
And here's what he writes.

382
00:13:39,315 --> 00:13:42,169
When someone seriously wrongs you, there is an

383
00:13:42,169 --> 00:13:44,190
unavoidable sense that the wrongdoer

384
00:13:44,730 --> 00:13:45,549
owes you.

385
00:13:46,409 --> 00:13:48,409
So this is what he's saying is why

386
00:13:48,409 --> 00:13:50,829
why Jesus uses the parable of debts.

387
00:13:51,529 --> 00:13:53,929
Is it there's there's been something. So okay.

388
00:13:53,929 --> 00:13:55,769
Said it this weekend. This parable isn't about

389
00:13:55,769 --> 00:13:58,065
money. It might apply. It might apply to

390
00:13:58,065 --> 00:14:00,384
a money situation, you know, but this isn't

391
00:14:00,384 --> 00:14:01,764
about money. It's not about

392
00:14:02,304 --> 00:14:04,545
literally forgiving debt. It's a parable. He's making

393
00:14:04,545 --> 00:14:06,785
a point about the forgiveness that we extend

394
00:14:06,785 --> 00:14:07,524
to other people.

395
00:14:07,985 --> 00:14:10,705
So the wrong has incurred an obligation, a

396
00:14:10,705 --> 00:14:13,790
liability, a debt. Anyone who is wronged

397
00:14:14,250 --> 00:14:15,309
feels a compulsion

398
00:14:15,610 --> 00:14:18,330
to make the other person pay down that

399
00:14:18,330 --> 00:14:18,830
debt.

400
00:14:19,529 --> 00:14:21,930
We do that by hurting them, yelling at

401
00:14:21,930 --> 00:14:24,670
them, making them feel bad in some way,

402
00:14:25,194 --> 00:14:28,894
or even just waiting and watching and hoping

403
00:14:29,115 --> 00:14:31,615
that something bad happens to them. Yeah.

404
00:14:32,235 --> 00:14:35,115
Only after we see them suffer in some

405
00:14:35,115 --> 00:14:35,615
commensurate

406
00:14:36,554 --> 00:14:38,794
way do we sense that the debt has

407
00:14:38,794 --> 00:14:41,860
been paid and the feeling of obligation is

408
00:14:41,860 --> 00:14:42,360
gone?

409
00:14:42,980 --> 00:14:45,000
This sense of debt slash liability

410
00:14:45,300 --> 00:14:48,120
and obligation is impossible to escape.

411
00:14:48,660 --> 00:14:50,920
Anyone who denies it exists

412
00:14:51,620 --> 00:14:54,600
has simply not been wronged or sinned against

413
00:14:54,740 --> 00:14:55,480
in any

414
00:14:55,995 --> 00:14:56,735
serious way.

415
00:14:57,835 --> 00:15:00,414
Forgiveness means giving up the right to revenge.

416
00:15:00,475 --> 00:15:02,394
And that's I actually used that quote this

417
00:15:02,394 --> 00:15:02,894
weekend,

418
00:15:04,315 --> 00:15:05,535
but all that to say,

419
00:15:05,995 --> 00:15:06,815
it's complicated.

420
00:15:07,274 --> 00:15:09,290
Yeah. And it's something that we can go

421
00:15:09,290 --> 00:15:09,790
wait.

422
00:15:10,250 --> 00:15:12,330
Because it's something, like, you you run it

423
00:15:12,330 --> 00:15:13,610
through your mind, and you run it through

424
00:15:13,610 --> 00:15:14,889
your mind, and you run it through your

425
00:15:14,889 --> 00:15:15,389
mind.

426
00:15:15,929 --> 00:15:18,029
And if it's been a serious offense,

427
00:15:18,490 --> 00:15:20,649
and I write just referred to and I

428
00:15:20,649 --> 00:15:22,809
didn't mean to be overly generic this weekend,

429
00:15:22,809 --> 00:15:23,309
but

430
00:15:23,654 --> 00:15:25,654
the details of the thing aren't aren't important.

431
00:15:25,654 --> 00:15:27,595
Mhmm. And it happened a long time ago.

432
00:15:28,054 --> 00:15:30,294
But but the level of the wounding was

433
00:15:30,294 --> 00:15:32,235
significant. The level of betrayal

434
00:15:33,414 --> 00:15:33,914
was

435
00:15:34,695 --> 00:15:35,195
significant.

436
00:15:35,975 --> 00:15:37,274
When someone says,

437
00:15:38,269 --> 00:15:39,330
Hey, you're here

438
00:15:40,590 --> 00:15:43,309
at our church, talks you into taking a

439
00:15:43,309 --> 00:15:43,809
job,

440
00:15:44,350 --> 00:15:44,850
says,

441
00:15:46,350 --> 00:15:48,750
literally straight looks your wife straight in the

442
00:15:48,750 --> 00:15:50,750
eye and says, You have nothing to worry

443
00:15:50,750 --> 00:15:52,370
about. As long as I'm here,

444
00:15:52,704 --> 00:15:54,464
we will take care of you. Looks are

445
00:15:54,464 --> 00:15:55,445
dead in the eye.

446
00:15:56,625 --> 00:15:57,904
And at the time, it's like we had

447
00:15:57,904 --> 00:15:59,745
other options. We got other things we could

448
00:15:59,745 --> 00:16:01,125
do. But, like, okay,

449
00:16:02,225 --> 00:16:03,684
this is what we're to do.

450
00:16:04,225 --> 00:16:04,725
And,

451
00:16:05,580 --> 00:16:07,600
you know, just over a year later,

452
00:16:08,860 --> 00:16:10,879
it's radically different than that.

453
00:16:11,740 --> 00:16:13,040
And and not only that,

454
00:16:14,379 --> 00:16:15,679
denied that conversation

455
00:16:16,220 --> 00:16:16,960
at dinner

456
00:16:17,660 --> 00:16:20,125
ever happened. Mhmm. You know, like, of course

457
00:16:20,125 --> 00:16:22,284
I never said that. I mean, radical, radical,

458
00:16:22,284 --> 00:16:24,845
radical. It's far worse than that. All that

459
00:16:24,845 --> 00:16:25,504
to say,

460
00:16:25,964 --> 00:16:27,884
that wasn't something that I got over in

461
00:16:27,884 --> 00:16:30,044
a week. Yeah. It wasn't like, oh, okay.

462
00:16:30,044 --> 00:16:31,584
I guess I'm I'm cool.

463
00:16:32,470 --> 00:16:34,790
It really was over a few a span

464
00:16:34,790 --> 00:16:36,809
of years that I had to

465
00:16:37,590 --> 00:16:39,429
reckon with. And it wasn't always at the

466
00:16:39,429 --> 00:16:41,429
front of my mind. It wasn't always there,

467
00:16:41,429 --> 00:16:42,870
but I had to wrestle my way through

468
00:16:42,870 --> 00:16:43,529
it. And

469
00:16:44,230 --> 00:16:46,730
because the person had wronged me,

470
00:16:47,154 --> 00:16:47,894
in particular,

471
00:16:48,274 --> 00:16:50,214
it was connected with a church and

472
00:16:50,595 --> 00:16:52,434
he's a Christian and I'm a Christian and

473
00:16:52,434 --> 00:16:54,695
it's connected to church work. It it got

474
00:16:54,835 --> 00:16:55,894
even more

475
00:16:57,154 --> 00:16:57,654
convoluted

476
00:16:58,115 --> 00:16:59,335
in the sense of,

477
00:16:59,960 --> 00:17:01,799
well, God, why did you do this to

478
00:17:01,799 --> 00:17:04,299
me? And that gets complicated. Yeah.

479
00:17:04,759 --> 00:17:06,839
So then you have to to go, okay.

480
00:17:06,839 --> 00:17:07,900
Wait. Over time,

481
00:17:08,599 --> 00:17:10,140
how am I actively

482
00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:12,140
pursuing forgiveness?

483
00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:14,440
And once again, it's not something maybe that

484
00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:16,494
was always at the front. It was initially,

485
00:17:16,494 --> 00:17:17,695
it was always at the front of my

486
00:17:17,695 --> 00:17:18,195
mind.

487
00:17:18,815 --> 00:17:21,134
But eventually, over time, you know, you're like,

488
00:17:21,134 --> 00:17:22,815
okay. You move on and it's a year

489
00:17:22,815 --> 00:17:25,134
later. It's two years later. It's three years

490
00:17:25,134 --> 00:17:25,634
later.

491
00:17:26,095 --> 00:17:29,259
And you realize you're still maybe not fully

492
00:17:29,259 --> 00:17:30,400
embracing the forgiveness

493
00:17:31,500 --> 00:17:33,740
that Jesus is teaching here in Matthew chapter

494
00:17:33,740 --> 00:17:35,740
18. And then you have to go, okay.

495
00:17:35,740 --> 00:17:36,240
Wait.

496
00:17:36,700 --> 00:17:38,700
Where where is that? Holy Spirit, what are

497
00:17:38,700 --> 00:17:39,680
you doing in that?

498
00:17:40,220 --> 00:17:42,320
And it led to a situation where

499
00:17:43,325 --> 00:17:45,325
I didn't even know in the back of

500
00:17:45,325 --> 00:17:46,065
my mind

501
00:17:47,325 --> 00:17:49,164
that I had a question. Like, I I

502
00:17:49,164 --> 00:17:50,285
I would lead to a point where I

503
00:17:50,285 --> 00:17:52,045
finally felt like, okay, listen. This is I've

504
00:17:52,045 --> 00:17:54,445
forgiven him. I've forgiven him. Like, I think

505
00:17:54,445 --> 00:17:56,369
we're good. You know? I think it's played

506
00:17:56,369 --> 00:17:57,490
out, and I can't say it was, like,

507
00:17:57,490 --> 00:17:59,090
on this date, at this time, or whatever.

508
00:17:59,090 --> 00:18:00,710
But I was like, no. I think

509
00:18:01,730 --> 00:18:03,410
I think this is it's no longer a

510
00:18:03,410 --> 00:18:04,789
thing. Mhmm. And

511
00:18:05,250 --> 00:18:07,590
then to run into him at a conference

512
00:18:08,289 --> 00:18:08,789
and

513
00:18:10,049 --> 00:18:10,710
be like,

514
00:18:11,465 --> 00:18:11,965
wow.

515
00:18:12,825 --> 00:18:15,625
It's real. Because because I didn't have any

516
00:18:15,625 --> 00:18:16,125
of

517
00:18:16,744 --> 00:18:19,224
the the feeling indicators. None of the like,

518
00:18:19,224 --> 00:18:20,205
I wasn't uncomfortable.

519
00:18:20,664 --> 00:18:21,325
I wasn't,

520
00:18:22,184 --> 00:18:24,345
I didn't feel anything welling up within me.

521
00:18:24,345 --> 00:18:26,605
There was no anger there. There was no

522
00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:28,720
residual anger. Because that could go either way.

523
00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:29,920
You could see him at the conference and

524
00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:32,000
go, oh, I guess I haven't forgiven this

525
00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:33,920
person. Yeah. Yeah. And so then, like I

526
00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:36,000
said this weekend, when I walked away and

527
00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:37,599
I really saw it as a gift from

528
00:18:37,599 --> 00:18:39,984
God. First off, that, like, it would, it's

529
00:18:39,984 --> 00:18:42,224
not like, oh, yeah. That's I'm gonna run

530
00:18:42,224 --> 00:18:43,744
into him. I went to this place and

531
00:18:43,744 --> 00:18:44,804
he went to this place,

532
00:18:45,105 --> 00:18:47,605
you know. This was years later. I had

533
00:18:47,825 --> 00:18:49,044
two jobs later,

534
00:18:49,904 --> 00:18:52,884
you know. Like, the scenario had radically changed

535
00:18:52,944 --> 00:18:53,444
and

536
00:18:54,109 --> 00:18:54,849
I was like, wow.

537
00:18:55,710 --> 00:18:57,250
You know? Like,

538
00:18:58,269 --> 00:18:59,630
I hadn't I had come to this point

539
00:18:59,630 --> 00:19:01,950
too where there hadn't been like I probably

540
00:19:01,950 --> 00:19:04,109
hadn't had conscious thought about it for a

541
00:19:04,109 --> 00:19:05,009
while. Mhmm.

542
00:19:05,470 --> 00:19:07,974
And but I I realized walking away in

543
00:19:07,974 --> 00:19:09,654
the back of my mind, I I kind

544
00:19:09,654 --> 00:19:11,355
of had always had that question.

545
00:19:12,295 --> 00:19:13,674
I wonder what would happen

546
00:19:14,295 --> 00:19:16,134
if I saw him, if I ran into

547
00:19:16,134 --> 00:19:17,575
him. Yeah. Could I talk to him? Could

548
00:19:17,575 --> 00:19:19,335
I be kind? Could I smile? And I

549
00:19:19,335 --> 00:19:19,994
was like,

550
00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:21,920
my goodness. And I really did see it

551
00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:23,680
as a gift from God. Yeah. Like, it

552
00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:25,359
it took a span of time to get

553
00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:26,960
to the point of saying, okay, wait. Not

554
00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:27,619
not just,

555
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:30,660
hey, am I am I okay?

556
00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:32,099
But no, legitimately,

557
00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:33,859
I think the forgiveness

558
00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:35,460
is ultimately,

559
00:19:36,775 --> 00:19:39,355
not just about what I'm extending that person.

560
00:19:39,894 --> 00:19:42,295
It's the transformation that it brings to me.

561
00:19:42,295 --> 00:19:42,795
And

562
00:19:43,255 --> 00:19:45,414
I think that's where we're missing it often

563
00:19:45,414 --> 00:19:46,634
when it comes to forgiveness

564
00:19:46,934 --> 00:19:47,434
is

565
00:19:48,809 --> 00:19:50,109
we're not grasping that.

566
00:19:50,970 --> 00:19:52,890
And you mentioned that, you know, of course,

567
00:19:52,890 --> 00:19:54,250
the span of time and that it's a

568
00:19:54,250 --> 00:19:56,970
process. And so when when Jesus says at

569
00:19:56,970 --> 00:19:58,409
the end of this parable, so also my

570
00:19:58,409 --> 00:20:00,089
heavenly father will do to every one of

571
00:20:00,089 --> 00:20:01,230
you if you do not

572
00:20:01,875 --> 00:20:03,954
if you do not forgive your brother from

573
00:20:03,954 --> 00:20:04,615
your heart.

574
00:20:05,075 --> 00:20:07,174
You know, it's it's that's pretty heavy.

575
00:20:07,875 --> 00:20:10,615
So what about the timing and the like,

576
00:20:11,075 --> 00:20:11,575
so

577
00:20:14,500 --> 00:20:16,900
how do I know if I can't forgive

578
00:20:16,900 --> 00:20:17,799
someone now,

579
00:20:19,859 --> 00:20:22,919
or I haven't forgiven someone now? Am I

580
00:20:23,940 --> 00:20:25,880
is Jesus ready to is

581
00:20:26,819 --> 00:20:28,519
is is his father ready to

582
00:20:29,365 --> 00:20:30,184
Smite you?

583
00:20:30,484 --> 00:20:32,664
Throw me into jail with the torturers?

584
00:20:33,125 --> 00:20:34,345
You know, like Yeah.

585
00:20:35,044 --> 00:20:36,345
What do I do today

586
00:20:38,325 --> 00:20:39,944
knowing I oh,

587
00:20:40,404 --> 00:20:41,704
I'm not there yet?

588
00:20:42,470 --> 00:20:45,430
I'm gonna steal a baseball phrase. Okay. And

589
00:20:45,430 --> 00:20:47,430
once again, this is now we're just into

590
00:20:47,430 --> 00:20:47,930
opinion.

591
00:20:48,470 --> 00:20:49,829
There's not I can't go to, like, a

592
00:20:50,309 --> 00:20:52,570
Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is using baseball.

593
00:20:53,750 --> 00:20:54,250
Embrace

594
00:20:55,029 --> 00:20:55,769
the process.

595
00:20:57,285 --> 00:20:59,144
I believe that if you embrace

596
00:20:59,845 --> 00:21:00,585
the process

597
00:21:02,565 --> 00:21:03,384
in other words,

598
00:21:04,244 --> 00:21:06,005
I don't want to forgive him in my

599
00:21:06,005 --> 00:21:07,684
heart, but I want to want to forgive

600
00:21:07,684 --> 00:21:09,384
him in my heart. Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

601
00:21:09,765 --> 00:21:10,265
And

602
00:21:11,660 --> 00:21:13,200
I wanna get to the place

603
00:21:13,980 --> 00:21:16,240
where I forgive him in my heart. Mhmm.

604
00:21:16,940 --> 00:21:18,720
I wanna be obedient to Jesus

605
00:21:19,099 --> 00:21:19,919
above all.

606
00:21:20,460 --> 00:21:20,960
Jesus

607
00:21:21,419 --> 00:21:23,119
life in Jesus' kingdom

608
00:21:23,794 --> 00:21:26,194
is where my allegiance is. And because my

609
00:21:26,194 --> 00:21:27,335
allegiance is

610
00:21:28,194 --> 00:21:29,174
following Jesus

611
00:21:29,554 --> 00:21:30,375
in his kingdom,

612
00:21:32,355 --> 00:21:34,694
I that's the life I want,

613
00:21:35,075 --> 00:21:36,134
and I'm willing

614
00:21:36,835 --> 00:21:37,414
to pursue

615
00:21:38,589 --> 00:21:39,089
Jesus

616
00:21:39,549 --> 00:21:40,849
in order to see

617
00:21:41,389 --> 00:21:43,409
that happen, and that's gonna require

618
00:21:43,789 --> 00:21:45,649
that I have to confront this offense,

619
00:21:46,029 --> 00:21:48,210
and I have to work through the process.

620
00:21:49,549 --> 00:21:51,389
Is that helpful? Yeah. It is. And it's

621
00:21:51,389 --> 00:21:53,309
the difference between, like, oh, I

622
00:21:53,994 --> 00:21:55,534
it's the the difference between

623
00:21:57,034 --> 00:21:57,855
I need to

624
00:21:58,714 --> 00:22:00,894
try to hate this person less.

625
00:22:01,274 --> 00:22:03,355
Right. And I need to go through this

626
00:22:03,355 --> 00:22:06,974
process of understanding better and believing more

627
00:22:07,619 --> 00:22:09,059
what God has done for me and what

628
00:22:09,059 --> 00:22:10,980
he's forgiven me of. And it just it

629
00:22:10,980 --> 00:22:11,960
reminds me of,

630
00:22:12,259 --> 00:22:13,640
you know, a verse that

631
00:22:14,180 --> 00:22:16,019
comes up a lot, I think, for us

632
00:22:16,019 --> 00:22:16,519
in

633
00:22:16,820 --> 00:22:19,000
in Titus chapter two when

634
00:22:19,625 --> 00:22:21,625
Paul writes, for the grace of God. The

635
00:22:21,625 --> 00:22:23,085
grace of God has appeared,

636
00:22:23,545 --> 00:22:25,404
bringing salvation for all people,

637
00:22:25,865 --> 00:22:27,965
training us to renounce ungodliness,

638
00:22:28,505 --> 00:22:30,825
worldly passions, and to live self controlled, upright,

639
00:22:30,825 --> 00:22:33,005
godly lives in this present age. Like,

640
00:22:33,609 --> 00:22:35,929
it's God's grace showed up to and and

641
00:22:35,929 --> 00:22:39,210
it's it is training us. God's grace is

642
00:22:39,210 --> 00:22:42,029
training us. So, of course, it's a process

643
00:22:42,169 --> 00:22:43,549
that I'm gonna need

644
00:22:44,730 --> 00:22:47,869
the more I understand and receive God's grace,

645
00:22:48,009 --> 00:22:49,275
then that's training

646
00:22:49,734 --> 00:22:51,494
me to go, oh, God has forgiven me

647
00:22:51,494 --> 00:22:53,194
of even more than I thought.

648
00:22:53,734 --> 00:22:55,815
I actually needed him more than I realized.

649
00:22:55,815 --> 00:22:57,494
My debt to him was greater than I

650
00:22:57,494 --> 00:22:57,994
understood.

651
00:22:59,734 --> 00:23:00,554
And thankfully,

652
00:23:00,855 --> 00:23:02,855
God is gentle with us and shows us

653
00:23:02,855 --> 00:23:03,835
that over time.

654
00:23:04,669 --> 00:23:06,269
And I think what you're talking about is

655
00:23:06,269 --> 00:23:08,210
that that's the process. Is as I'm recognizing

656
00:23:08,349 --> 00:23:11,309
that more, I'm experiencing god's grace more, then

657
00:23:11,309 --> 00:23:13,730
it becomes natural for me to give

658
00:23:14,190 --> 00:23:16,750
more grace, including forgiveness. Yeah. And this weekend,

659
00:23:16,750 --> 00:23:18,909
I kinda I I used Ephesians and Colossians

660
00:23:18,909 --> 00:23:20,450
to kinda talk about that process,

661
00:23:21,284 --> 00:23:22,504
in the sense of,

662
00:23:24,325 --> 00:23:25,865
you know, it's not just, like,

663
00:23:27,204 --> 00:23:29,625
forgive and move on. That's not it.

664
00:23:30,804 --> 00:23:33,125
Forgiving isn't forgetting, you know. It's not like,

665
00:23:33,125 --> 00:23:35,440
hey, forget the offense and and move on.

666
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,960
It's forgiving the offense. And so that's not

667
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:39,460
exacting

668
00:23:39,839 --> 00:23:40,339
payment.

669
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:42,339
It it's not denying

670
00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:45,299
there was ever a debt. Right.

671
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,664
Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's forgiveness. Yeah. That is

672
00:23:48,664 --> 00:23:51,565
important. It's it's forgiving. It's not forgetting. Right.

673
00:23:51,785 --> 00:23:53,884
And so so the process of,

674
00:23:54,265 --> 00:23:56,744
in Ephesians chapter four, at the end of

675
00:23:56,744 --> 00:23:59,005
four and ended the beginning of chapter five,

676
00:23:59,950 --> 00:24:02,190
where, Paul wrote, do not grieve the Holy

677
00:24:02,190 --> 00:24:04,369
Spirit of God by whom you were sealed

678
00:24:04,509 --> 00:24:06,509
for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness

679
00:24:06,509 --> 00:24:08,529
and wrath and anger and clamor and slander

680
00:24:08,990 --> 00:24:10,990
be put away from you along with all

681
00:24:10,990 --> 00:24:11,490
malice.

682
00:24:12,234 --> 00:24:14,315
Be kind to one another, tend to harder,

683
00:24:14,315 --> 00:24:15,615
forgiving one another

684
00:24:15,994 --> 00:24:18,335
as God in Christ forgave you.

685
00:24:18,875 --> 00:24:21,774
Therefore, be imitators of God as beloved children

686
00:24:22,154 --> 00:24:24,394
and walk in love as Christ loved us

687
00:24:24,394 --> 00:24:26,759
and gave himself up for us, A fragrant

688
00:24:26,980 --> 00:24:28,440
offering and a sacrifice

689
00:24:29,299 --> 00:24:31,859
to God. That's that's a spirit empowered thing.

690
00:24:31,859 --> 00:24:32,519
That is

691
00:24:33,059 --> 00:24:35,059
that's living out the life. And then, you

692
00:24:35,059 --> 00:24:36,900
know, whether it's the fruit of the spirit

693
00:24:36,900 --> 00:24:39,480
in Galatians, but it goes on, you know,

694
00:24:39,904 --> 00:24:42,384
in Colossians chapter three. Forgiving each other as

695
00:24:42,384 --> 00:24:44,804
the Lord has forgiven you. So you also

696
00:24:44,944 --> 00:24:47,984
must forgive. Like, it is the spirit empowered

697
00:24:47,984 --> 00:24:49,924
life. Yeah. Well, how do I do that?

698
00:24:50,065 --> 00:24:52,065
The I think, you know, like, it's what

699
00:24:52,065 --> 00:24:53,764
you said. The more that I grasp

700
00:24:54,769 --> 00:24:55,269
the

701
00:24:55,970 --> 00:24:56,710
the the profound

702
00:24:58,450 --> 00:25:00,630
debt that Jesus paid for me,

703
00:25:01,089 --> 00:25:02,929
that's one side of a coin. And I

704
00:25:02,929 --> 00:25:05,029
think the other side of the coin is

705
00:25:05,409 --> 00:25:07,089
the more that I'm able to put in

706
00:25:07,089 --> 00:25:07,589
truth,

707
00:25:07,924 --> 00:25:09,204
the more that I'm able to put in

708
00:25:09,204 --> 00:25:11,865
truth into my mind and into my heart,

709
00:25:12,164 --> 00:25:13,384
I'm able to go,

710
00:25:14,565 --> 00:25:15,784
wait a minute.

711
00:25:16,644 --> 00:25:18,184
Wait a minute. That

712
00:25:18,565 --> 00:25:19,464
that's not

713
00:25:19,765 --> 00:25:20,724
that's actually

714
00:25:21,599 --> 00:25:23,380
I I wanna say, like, maybe even

715
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:25,839
okay. You can push back on this. I

716
00:25:25,839 --> 00:25:27,619
I just thought of this right now. Okay.

717
00:25:27,839 --> 00:25:28,740
Maybe even

718
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:31,920
like, he's not pointing towards pure motive. Like,

719
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:33,279
I think a lot a lot of time

720
00:25:33,279 --> 00:25:34,625
we get we get a little,

721
00:25:35,005 --> 00:25:37,825
maybe like, okay, where is my motive pure

722
00:25:38,365 --> 00:25:40,845
in the forgiveness? And and this parable doesn't

723
00:25:40,845 --> 00:25:43,244
point to motive. Sure. And so I would

724
00:25:43,244 --> 00:25:45,585
even be able to say, in some way,

725
00:25:46,619 --> 00:25:47,359
the motive

726
00:25:47,819 --> 00:25:49,759
like, if I really grasp

727
00:25:50,539 --> 00:25:52,559
the power of the gospel to forgive me,

728
00:25:53,180 --> 00:25:55,420
what Jesus has done, and if I'm like,

729
00:25:55,420 --> 00:25:57,200
if I wanna live in that freedom

730
00:25:58,220 --> 00:26:00,855
that he's given me Yeah. I can't hold

731
00:26:00,855 --> 00:26:02,775
on to this. I wanna enjoy that freedom

732
00:26:02,775 --> 00:26:04,375
he's given me. Yeah. It's okay to want

733
00:26:04,454 --> 00:26:05,815
I think you're right. I think it's okay

734
00:26:05,815 --> 00:26:06,474
to want

735
00:26:07,015 --> 00:26:07,674
to enjoy

736
00:26:09,015 --> 00:26:10,775
the the freedom that we have in Christ

737
00:26:10,775 --> 00:26:12,615
and to go, I wanna I wanna I

738
00:26:12,615 --> 00:26:13,674
don't wanna live,

739
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,320
like, beholden to malice. You know, when you

740
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,580
read that verse, I was like, yeah. Sometimes

741
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:21,980
malice feels good. Like, I wanna

742
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:24,440
hold on to hatred in my heart, but

743
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,440
it does not work long term. You know?

744
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:28,519
But in the short term? Yeah. Sometimes it

745
00:26:28,519 --> 00:26:30,375
does feel good. Yeah. It does. You're like,

746
00:26:30,375 --> 00:26:32,695
oh, now I'm just gonna slander this person.

747
00:26:32,695 --> 00:26:34,615
Uh-huh. And how dated they, and could you

748
00:26:34,615 --> 00:26:37,255
believe they did? Yeah. And that's that's why

749
00:26:37,255 --> 00:26:39,095
I said, like, as I was concluding this

750
00:26:39,095 --> 00:26:40,875
weekend, the irony of forgiveness

751
00:26:41,494 --> 00:26:42,955
is that it restores you.

752
00:26:43,494 --> 00:26:46,160
Right? Yeah. It's not just that and and

753
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,360
in the end, your your relationship

754
00:26:49,299 --> 00:26:50,440
may never return

755
00:26:51,380 --> 00:26:53,220
to what it was. It it might not

756
00:26:53,220 --> 00:26:54,680
even be appropriate

757
00:26:55,140 --> 00:26:56,119
for your relationship

758
00:26:56,580 --> 00:26:58,785
to return to what it was. Right. But

759
00:26:58,785 --> 00:27:00,465
that doesn't mean there's not gonna be forgiveness.

760
00:27:00,465 --> 00:27:02,085
Right. So it doesn't mean, like,

761
00:27:02,465 --> 00:27:05,265
you have a business partner. He stole all

762
00:27:05,265 --> 00:27:07,045
your money. Uh-huh. He

763
00:27:07,505 --> 00:27:09,904
he left town and stole all your money.

764
00:27:09,904 --> 00:27:11,585
That doesn't mean that you don't go to

765
00:27:11,585 --> 00:27:12,244
the police

766
00:27:12,730 --> 00:27:15,369
and have him prosecuted. Right. But at the

767
00:27:15,369 --> 00:27:17,690
same time, when you come face to face

768
00:27:17,690 --> 00:27:20,809
with him, there's there's a level of I'm

769
00:27:20,809 --> 00:27:23,470
I'm not harboring anything against you

770
00:27:24,009 --> 00:27:26,250
because I have forgiven you for the offense

771
00:27:26,250 --> 00:27:28,255
that you've committed to me. Yeah. But that

772
00:27:28,255 --> 00:27:30,674
doesn't mean that you're alleviated from the consequences

773
00:27:31,775 --> 00:27:34,575
of sin Yeah. Alleviated from the consequences of

774
00:27:34,575 --> 00:27:37,375
the law. That's absolutely true. If there's a

775
00:27:37,375 --> 00:27:39,615
case of abuse Uh-huh. If there's a case

776
00:27:39,615 --> 00:27:40,914
of abuse, your relationship

777
00:27:41,759 --> 00:27:43,839
isn't ever gonna be what it was. Right.

778
00:27:43,839 --> 00:27:45,519
But that doesn't mean that there there can't

779
00:27:45,519 --> 00:27:48,000
be forgiveness. Right. It's not pretending that it

780
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:49,680
didn't happen. And like we said, it's not

781
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,480
forgetting. I heard years ago read something from

782
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:52,980
a

783
00:27:53,835 --> 00:27:54,335
a

784
00:27:54,875 --> 00:27:57,515
researcher, you know, like from Stanford or something

785
00:27:57,515 --> 00:27:58,815
on forgiveness. And

786
00:27:59,115 --> 00:28:00,634
I don't think he's a believer, but he

787
00:28:00,634 --> 00:28:01,835
said he wrote something like

788
00:28:02,554 --> 00:28:03,755
this is the way I've quoted it for

789
00:28:03,755 --> 00:28:05,115
years. I don't know if I'm accurate or

790
00:28:05,115 --> 00:28:07,194
not. Forgiveness is all is giving up all

791
00:28:07,194 --> 00:28:08,494
hope of a better past.

792
00:28:09,809 --> 00:28:12,210
And that's not the whole picture of it,

793
00:28:12,210 --> 00:28:13,650
but I do think that's part of it

794
00:28:13,650 --> 00:28:16,609
is it's not forgetting the past. It's not

795
00:28:16,609 --> 00:28:19,269
pretending it didn't happen, but it's giving up,

796
00:28:19,490 --> 00:28:20,789
like, that somehow

797
00:28:21,575 --> 00:28:24,295
if I make this person suffer, the my

798
00:28:24,295 --> 00:28:27,095
past will get better. Because it won't. That

799
00:28:27,095 --> 00:28:30,214
that thing happened. That experience happened. And instead

800
00:28:30,214 --> 00:28:31,355
of holding

801
00:28:32,934 --> 00:28:34,295
holding them in

802
00:28:34,855 --> 00:28:36,690
yeah. Until they pay for it somehow, until

803
00:28:36,690 --> 00:28:38,929
they are punished enough for it. Instead of

804
00:28:38,929 --> 00:28:41,190
that, I'm gonna go, the past has happened,

805
00:28:41,409 --> 00:28:43,269
and there are results of that.

806
00:28:43,730 --> 00:28:45,089
And, you know, some of the things you

807
00:28:45,089 --> 00:28:46,450
just named, it may be the results of

808
00:28:46,450 --> 00:28:48,150
that. But I'm not gonna

809
00:28:48,484 --> 00:28:50,164
I'm not gonna live that I somehow the

810
00:28:50,164 --> 00:28:52,724
past will be better. Yeah. So Keller's book,

811
00:28:52,724 --> 00:28:54,025
it does go through,

812
00:28:55,365 --> 00:28:57,605
and I'm not familiar, like, I can't remember

813
00:28:57,605 --> 00:28:59,285
just off my the top of my head

814
00:28:59,285 --> 00:29:00,984
how recently he passed away.

815
00:29:01,285 --> 00:29:01,684
But,

816
00:29:03,009 --> 00:29:04,950
it it goes into all, like,

817
00:29:05,410 --> 00:29:08,849
pretty pretty current since COVID, since 2020 Yeah.

818
00:29:08,929 --> 00:29:10,710
Through a lot of cultural

819
00:29:11,170 --> 00:29:13,809
Mhmm. Examples of things that have needed forgiveness

820
00:29:13,809 --> 00:29:15,569
and how the world kind of gives a

821
00:29:15,569 --> 00:29:18,414
contrary message. Like, you know, you'll get taken

822
00:29:18,414 --> 00:29:20,174
advantage of if you try and forgive. Like,

823
00:29:20,174 --> 00:29:21,535
the world will take advantage of you. And

824
00:29:21,535 --> 00:29:23,615
don't be a doormat and don't keep getting

825
00:29:23,615 --> 00:29:24,674
run over. And

826
00:29:25,055 --> 00:29:26,994
he actually writes this.

827
00:29:27,934 --> 00:29:28,674
He writes,

828
00:29:29,134 --> 00:29:32,095
to forgive is to cancel the debt by

829
00:29:32,095 --> 00:29:34,650
paying it or absorbing it yourself.

830
00:29:35,750 --> 00:29:36,250
Someone

831
00:29:36,549 --> 00:29:37,049
always

832
00:29:37,590 --> 00:29:38,090
pays

833
00:29:38,710 --> 00:29:40,710
every debt. And he uses like, this is

834
00:29:40,710 --> 00:29:42,410
how monetary debt works.

835
00:29:43,109 --> 00:29:45,450
So when you forgive somebody a monetary

836
00:29:45,830 --> 00:29:48,090
debt and you write that off,

837
00:29:48,505 --> 00:29:50,424
you lose the money. Right. You don't get

838
00:29:50,424 --> 00:29:52,424
the money. Right. That's gonna cost you something.

839
00:29:52,424 --> 00:29:53,944
You were supposed to get it, and now

840
00:29:53,944 --> 00:29:55,704
you're not gonna get it. Right. And so

841
00:29:55,704 --> 00:29:58,025
just, you know, not over cooking the parable,

842
00:29:58,025 --> 00:30:00,345
but, okay, 13 to $14,000,000,000

843
00:30:00,345 --> 00:30:01,484
is the one master.

844
00:30:01,865 --> 00:30:02,765
He absorbed

845
00:30:03,144 --> 00:30:04,125
it. Yeah.

846
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:05,220
He lost

847
00:30:06,079 --> 00:30:06,980
it. The other one

848
00:30:07,519 --> 00:30:10,639
wasn't willing to absorb the $15,000

849
00:30:10,639 --> 00:30:12,480
hit. I'm not gonna absorb that kind of

850
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,839
loss. And that was really it really was

851
00:30:15,839 --> 00:30:19,539
helpful for me because it's not like, okay,

852
00:30:21,174 --> 00:30:23,255
just pretend like it didn't happen. It literally

853
00:30:23,255 --> 00:30:25,115
is flipping that and saying,

854
00:30:25,894 --> 00:30:27,595
it's it is a gospel picture.

855
00:30:28,055 --> 00:30:29,035
I will take

856
00:30:30,055 --> 00:30:33,015
the debt that that person owes, I'll pay

857
00:30:33,015 --> 00:30:33,515
it.

858
00:30:34,090 --> 00:30:36,090
I'll pay it. I'll write it off. And

859
00:30:36,090 --> 00:30:38,029
that means that I have to deal with

860
00:30:38,490 --> 00:30:41,210
all of the emotional scars, all of the

861
00:30:41,210 --> 00:30:42,029
hurt, pain.

862
00:30:42,570 --> 00:30:44,890
Yeah. That that I'm willing to take that

863
00:30:44,890 --> 00:30:48,330
on rather than venting in anger against the

864
00:30:48,330 --> 00:30:49,710
person who has

865
00:30:50,224 --> 00:30:51,365
perpetrated the crime,

866
00:30:51,825 --> 00:30:53,765
I'm going to take that all on

867
00:30:54,465 --> 00:30:56,465
and and and believe that the gospel is

868
00:30:56,465 --> 00:30:58,945
bigger. Yeah. And that Christ is bigger and

869
00:30:58,945 --> 00:31:01,845
the spirit is going to transform that for,

870
00:31:02,559 --> 00:31:04,559
you know, for god's good in my and,

871
00:31:04,559 --> 00:31:06,240
you know, it's like for god's glory and

872
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:07,940
my good. I almost got that backwards.

873
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:10,660
That'd be very bad.

874
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:11,700
My glory.

875
00:31:13,279 --> 00:31:15,494
Yeah. That'd that'd be really bad. You know,

876
00:31:15,494 --> 00:31:15,974
there's,

877
00:31:16,455 --> 00:31:18,134
I I I need well, one, I need

878
00:31:18,134 --> 00:31:19,414
to read that book. I have never read

879
00:31:19,414 --> 00:31:20,234
it, I don't think.

880
00:31:20,535 --> 00:31:22,535
Yeah. I think it's 24 that just came

881
00:31:22,535 --> 00:31:25,174
out. Okay. And then I definitely haven't read

882
00:31:25,174 --> 00:31:25,835
it. And

883
00:31:27,269 --> 00:31:29,930
but that idea of, like, okay. So when

884
00:31:30,789 --> 00:31:33,190
the offense comes to my mind, I think

885
00:31:33,190 --> 00:31:35,289
from my own experience, when the when

886
00:31:35,670 --> 00:31:37,430
when that offense comes to my mind, there

887
00:31:37,430 --> 00:31:39,029
is something, I don't know how else to

888
00:31:39,029 --> 00:31:41,850
put it, sort of therapeutic or cathartic about

889
00:31:42,105 --> 00:31:44,204
telling someone else. Yeah. Like saying,

890
00:31:46,105 --> 00:31:48,045
you wanna know how badly I was wronged?

891
00:31:48,184 --> 00:31:48,585
Like, it

892
00:31:49,464 --> 00:31:50,664
I I don't know how else to describe

893
00:31:50,664 --> 00:31:52,825
it except that it feels good. It it

894
00:31:52,825 --> 00:31:54,365
almost feels like some relief.

895
00:31:55,559 --> 00:31:57,160
And I feel like that's maybe part of

896
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:58,460
that burden that is

897
00:31:59,319 --> 00:32:01,240
the price that you pay to go, I'm

898
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:02,759
gonna deal with this a different way. So

899
00:32:02,759 --> 00:32:04,919
instead of taking it to somebody else who

900
00:32:04,919 --> 00:32:06,599
will just go, yeah, I can't believe what

901
00:32:06,599 --> 00:32:08,815
a jerk that person is, I'm gonna

902
00:32:09,194 --> 00:32:12,394
wrestle with God about it and work through

903
00:32:12,394 --> 00:32:13,295
it with him.

904
00:32:13,994 --> 00:32:15,674
And that does that's like a kind of

905
00:32:15,674 --> 00:32:17,535
work that's costly, and

906
00:32:18,075 --> 00:32:20,234
it doesn't have the sense of maybe it

907
00:32:20,234 --> 00:32:21,375
has longer term

908
00:32:22,539 --> 00:32:23,039
relief,

909
00:32:23,900 --> 00:32:26,299
but not short term in the same way.

910
00:32:26,299 --> 00:32:27,580
I don't know. Maybe that's some of what

911
00:32:27,580 --> 00:32:29,980
Keller's getting at. No. He has he actually

912
00:32:29,980 --> 00:32:30,380
has,

913
00:32:31,339 --> 00:32:33,420
four appendix in the back of the book,

914
00:32:33,420 --> 00:32:35,660
and one of them on forgiveness practice speaking

915
00:32:35,660 --> 00:32:37,259
to just what you're talking to. Okay. You

916
00:32:37,259 --> 00:32:37,845
know, like,

917
00:32:38,804 --> 00:32:40,565
one of one you know, he's got some

918
00:32:40,565 --> 00:32:42,804
steps, but one of the ways is,

919
00:32:44,085 --> 00:32:46,484
that we demonstrate forgiveness is by refusing to

920
00:32:46,484 --> 00:32:48,484
cut the person down to others. Yeah. You

921
00:32:48,484 --> 00:32:50,325
refuse to diminish them in the eyes of

922
00:32:50,325 --> 00:32:53,204
others by innuendo or spin or hint or

923
00:32:53,204 --> 00:32:53,704
gossip

924
00:32:54,059 --> 00:32:56,940
or direct slander. Don't run them down to

925
00:32:56,940 --> 00:32:59,819
others under the guise of warning people about

926
00:32:59,819 --> 00:33:00,319
them.

927
00:33:00,779 --> 00:33:02,000
Don't run them down,

928
00:33:02,460 --> 00:33:04,960
to others under the guise of seeking sympathy

929
00:33:05,419 --> 00:33:06,240
and support

930
00:33:06,619 --> 00:33:08,000
and sharing your hurt.

931
00:33:08,325 --> 00:33:08,825
That's

932
00:33:09,284 --> 00:33:09,784
Yeah.

933
00:33:11,284 --> 00:33:12,424
Yeah. That's

934
00:33:13,444 --> 00:33:14,825
that's a spirit empowered

935
00:33:15,444 --> 00:33:18,904
thing because that's the that's the human response.

936
00:33:19,204 --> 00:33:21,144
Like, if I can just get you

937
00:33:21,619 --> 00:33:24,500
to buy into this, you're gonna understand just

938
00:33:24,500 --> 00:33:26,740
how how terrible this was. Yeah. And if

939
00:33:26,740 --> 00:33:29,559
enough people agree that that person is terrible,

940
00:33:30,100 --> 00:33:31,640
that will help me.

941
00:33:32,019 --> 00:33:34,039
Yeah. I'm gonna feel better about me. Yeah.

942
00:33:34,125 --> 00:33:34,625
And,

943
00:33:35,325 --> 00:33:38,384
we we know a ministry down in Mexico

944
00:33:38,444 --> 00:33:39,424
City Mhmm.

945
00:33:41,325 --> 00:33:43,164
That we just sent a team there to.

946
00:33:43,164 --> 00:33:45,164
They they get to deal with some stuff

947
00:33:45,164 --> 00:33:47,565
that is beyond imagination. And so I think

948
00:33:47,565 --> 00:33:48,625
we all have,

949
00:33:49,529 --> 00:33:53,261
I don't I man, maybe we all don't.

950
00:33:53,261 --> 00:33:56,246
But but there's probably something in our past.

951
00:33:56,246 --> 00:33:59,231
It's like you don't you don't know the

952
00:33:59,231 --> 00:34:02,216
pattern, the the ongoing rejection, the ongoing betrayal,

953
00:34:02,216 --> 00:34:04,954
the ongoing offense. You don't know. Right?

954
00:34:05,335 --> 00:34:06,794
The the thing, like,

955
00:34:07,494 --> 00:34:08,635
the deep, deep

956
00:34:08,934 --> 00:34:10,875
cutting thing that happened. Uh-huh.

957
00:34:11,655 --> 00:34:13,494
And the answer is, no, I don't. Uh-huh.

958
00:34:13,494 --> 00:34:15,094
You know, I said it this weekend. I

959
00:34:15,094 --> 00:34:16,234
don't know what that is.

960
00:34:16,534 --> 00:34:17,434
But I know

961
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:20,219
that this parable

962
00:34:21,559 --> 00:34:22,299
is saying

963
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:25,259
your debt was 14,000,000,000.

964
00:34:26,679 --> 00:34:27,900
Was it 14,000,000,000?

965
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,259
Alright. Were you forgiven 14,000,000,000?

966
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:32,920
Was this person 14,000,000,000

967
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:33,644
in debt to you?

968
00:34:34,605 --> 00:34:35,105
And

969
00:34:36,204 --> 00:34:38,304
it's just it's just a

970
00:34:39,244 --> 00:34:39,905
a refusal

971
00:34:40,445 --> 00:34:41,265
to admit

972
00:34:41,644 --> 00:34:42,625
how awesome

973
00:34:43,644 --> 00:34:45,105
the gospel is

974
00:34:45,405 --> 00:34:46,304
in the forgiveness

975
00:34:46,684 --> 00:34:47,425
of me

976
00:34:48,639 --> 00:34:49,699
that would really

977
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:52,719
keep me in a place of saying, I'm

978
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,359
not gonna forgive that person. Yeah. Because I

979
00:34:55,359 --> 00:34:57,359
I I've lost I've lost the grasp. Yeah.

980
00:34:57,359 --> 00:34:59,139
I've lost the grasp of how amazing

981
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:01,780
the grace of God truly is

982
00:35:02,445 --> 00:35:05,405
that that I have been brought from death

983
00:35:05,405 --> 00:35:06,065
to life.

984
00:35:06,605 --> 00:35:08,465
Mhmm. And I've I've I've forgotten

985
00:35:08,765 --> 00:35:10,605
along the way or what you said earlier.

986
00:35:10,605 --> 00:35:12,844
I never do it. Yeah. And it's important

987
00:35:12,844 --> 00:35:14,545
that we would go, wait, this isn't

988
00:35:15,244 --> 00:35:17,744
this isn't just theory. This is really important.

989
00:35:18,250 --> 00:35:19,610
And one of the things that I've seen

990
00:35:19,610 --> 00:35:20,750
in real practical ways

991
00:35:21,210 --> 00:35:22,890
and for years, I've called this the golden

992
00:35:22,890 --> 00:35:25,469
key. Forgiveness is the golden key that unlocks

993
00:35:26,090 --> 00:35:26,590
life.

994
00:35:27,369 --> 00:35:29,789
It really does. And as Jesus teaches

995
00:35:30,250 --> 00:35:32,269
at the end of the model prayer,

996
00:35:32,735 --> 00:35:34,414
hey, if you don't forgive, you won't be

997
00:35:34,414 --> 00:35:36,655
forgiven. What's he talking about there? And we

998
00:35:36,655 --> 00:35:38,255
could debate that. We don't really have time

999
00:35:38,255 --> 00:35:40,574
to debate all that. But but all that

1000
00:35:40,574 --> 00:35:43,155
to say is there's something powerful

1001
00:35:43,695 --> 00:35:44,515
when somebody

1002
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:46,339
goes to

1003
00:35:46,639 --> 00:35:49,359
a deep wound and the spirit brings healing

1004
00:35:49,359 --> 00:35:51,539
and wholeness and forgiveness to it? And,

1005
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:54,799
the the ministry down in Mexico City, El

1006
00:35:54,799 --> 00:35:56,159
Pozo de Vida, that we just sent a

1007
00:35:56,159 --> 00:35:56,980
team to,

1008
00:35:58,474 --> 00:35:59,135
They have

1009
00:35:59,434 --> 00:36:01,775
just story after story of,

1010
00:36:03,275 --> 00:36:04,015
young girls,

1011
00:36:04,635 --> 00:36:05,135
tragic,

1012
00:36:05,515 --> 00:36:06,015
terrible,

1013
00:36:06,635 --> 00:36:07,535
beyond description,

1014
00:36:08,155 --> 00:36:08,974
going through

1015
00:36:09,275 --> 00:36:10,974
this process of

1016
00:36:11,429 --> 00:36:14,069
forgiveness to people that the world would say

1017
00:36:14,069 --> 00:36:16,010
should never be forgiven. Not

1018
00:36:16,309 --> 00:36:17,289
not like,

1019
00:36:19,030 --> 00:36:20,710
oh, it it would be really hard to

1020
00:36:20,710 --> 00:36:23,210
forgive them. The world's version is

1021
00:36:23,589 --> 00:36:24,089
actually,

1022
00:36:24,875 --> 00:36:26,714
you're foolish to forgive them. Yeah. It's wrong

1023
00:36:26,714 --> 00:36:28,315
to forgive them. You never should. It's like

1024
00:36:28,394 --> 00:36:30,414
we talked about this weekend. It's like Lamech

1025
00:36:30,474 --> 00:36:32,815
in Genesis Yeah. Chapter four.

1026
00:36:33,114 --> 00:36:36,014
Like, I'm gonna I'm gonna keep the revenge

1027
00:36:36,155 --> 00:36:37,775
on you. It's gonna be limitless

1028
00:36:38,155 --> 00:36:38,655
revenge.

1029
00:36:39,469 --> 00:36:41,869
And Jesus takes that, flips it upside down,

1030
00:36:41,869 --> 00:36:43,630
flips it or or I wanna say, flips

1031
00:36:43,630 --> 00:36:45,710
right side up, and says, no. What I

1032
00:36:45,710 --> 00:36:46,769
wanna see is

1033
00:36:47,309 --> 00:36:50,349
limitless forgiveness. Mhmm. Limitless. And it doesn't have

1034
00:36:50,349 --> 00:36:51,010
any balance.

1035
00:36:51,485 --> 00:36:53,244
And so I just have to choose to

1036
00:36:53,244 --> 00:36:55,724
believe while I don't understand the hurt that

1037
00:36:55,724 --> 00:36:56,945
anybody experienced.

1038
00:36:57,565 --> 00:37:00,125
I do understand that this is really clear.

1039
00:37:00,125 --> 00:37:02,065
Scripture seems to be super clear.

1040
00:37:03,005 --> 00:37:04,465
Forgiveness isn't optional,

1041
00:37:04,869 --> 00:37:06,329
no matter what the offense was.

1042
00:37:06,710 --> 00:37:07,769
And it's mind blowing.

1043
00:37:08,469 --> 00:37:10,409
It's mind blowing. It doesn't seem fair.

1044
00:37:11,109 --> 00:37:13,030
And so I think to be able to

1045
00:37:13,030 --> 00:37:15,589
go like, okay, if this is something people

1046
00:37:15,589 --> 00:37:16,089
are

1047
00:37:16,389 --> 00:37:17,369
struggling with,

1048
00:37:18,364 --> 00:37:20,684
if it's a repeated pattern that you're struggling

1049
00:37:20,684 --> 00:37:21,184
with,

1050
00:37:21,565 --> 00:37:23,025
it is worth it

1051
00:37:23,324 --> 00:37:24,144
to get

1052
00:37:25,005 --> 00:37:26,224
counseling, help,

1053
00:37:27,164 --> 00:37:29,425
a resource like, Keller's book,

1054
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:31,519
and actually go, you know what? I'm I'm

1055
00:37:31,519 --> 00:37:33,840
gonna finally address this in my life, whatever

1056
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,480
that is. And don't believe you know, to

1057
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:38,079
hear some of those, yeah, some of those

1058
00:37:38,079 --> 00:37:40,159
stories from El Pos or Davida, you go,

1059
00:37:40,159 --> 00:37:42,079
okay. There's a kind of forgiveness that's possible

1060
00:37:42,079 --> 00:37:43,619
that I wouldn't think is possible.

1061
00:37:43,994 --> 00:37:45,755
And that's good for us to be reminded

1062
00:37:45,755 --> 00:37:47,355
of because if you're in a situation and

1063
00:37:47,355 --> 00:37:49,934
you say, not in my situation. I can't.

1064
00:37:50,234 --> 00:37:52,494
I could never ever forgive this person.

1065
00:37:53,034 --> 00:37:55,134
I think the starting point is just going,

1066
00:37:55,194 --> 00:37:56,815
Jesus says it's possible.

1067
00:37:57,275 --> 00:37:58,734
Otherwise, he wouldn't say

1068
00:37:59,250 --> 00:38:00,469
it's required.

1069
00:38:01,170 --> 00:38:02,550
So he says it's possible.

1070
00:38:02,849 --> 00:38:05,829
So I go, okay. So don't freak out.

1071
00:38:07,409 --> 00:38:08,550
Jesus is patient.

1072
00:38:09,809 --> 00:38:11,829
Just know it's possible. So

1073
00:38:12,515 --> 00:38:13,414
start to

1074
00:38:14,594 --> 00:38:16,614
what you tried so far hasn't worked. Okay.

1075
00:38:17,074 --> 00:38:19,635
But really working through it with a with

1076
00:38:19,635 --> 00:38:20,135
a

1077
00:38:20,474 --> 00:38:20,974
with

1078
00:38:21,315 --> 00:38:21,974
a good

1079
00:38:22,355 --> 00:38:22,855
counselor,

1080
00:38:23,315 --> 00:38:25,094
a therapist, you know, like

1081
00:38:25,635 --> 00:38:26,135
okay.

1082
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:28,440
Don't you don't have to go into it

1083
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:30,280
going, well, no. No. No. This I can

1084
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,780
never forgive this person. Jesus says you can,

1085
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:34,760
and he's gonna help you do it. And,

1086
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:36,760
also, there are some people and resources and

1087
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:39,320
processes that will help you do it. Oh,

1088
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,800
just go I I I'm again, maybe it's

1089
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:43,364
just, oh, it's easy for you to say

1090
00:38:43,364 --> 00:38:45,684
boo bar. But I think that's a starting

1091
00:38:45,684 --> 00:38:48,164
point for somebody. Just to go, Jesus seems

1092
00:38:48,164 --> 00:38:50,965
to expect that this is possible. So even

1093
00:38:50,965 --> 00:38:52,405
though I haven't been able to figure it

1094
00:38:52,405 --> 00:38:54,244
out yet, I'm gonna act like it's possible

1095
00:38:54,244 --> 00:38:56,485
and try something. No. I think that's really

1096
00:38:56,485 --> 00:38:57,144
good advice.

1097
00:38:57,500 --> 00:38:58,940
I think it's possible. So I'm gonna try

1098
00:38:58,940 --> 00:38:59,440
something.

1099
00:38:59,980 --> 00:39:02,780
And and then I would also think that

1100
00:39:02,780 --> 00:39:04,460
that it is important that we would give

1101
00:39:04,460 --> 00:39:05,039
a caution.

1102
00:39:05,579 --> 00:39:06,940
That if you are in a place of

1103
00:39:06,940 --> 00:39:07,440
saying,

1104
00:39:08,940 --> 00:39:10,880
no, it's not possible Mhmm.

1105
00:39:11,255 --> 00:39:12,394
And I would never.

1106
00:39:13,735 --> 00:39:15,755
It does now I think the end of

1107
00:39:15,974 --> 00:39:18,215
where you just read earlier, you really need

1108
00:39:18,215 --> 00:39:19,735
me to go back and read that. Yeah.

1109
00:39:19,735 --> 00:39:22,554
Reckon what with what you're saying to Jesus.

1110
00:39:23,269 --> 00:39:24,889
If you're saying oh, because

1111
00:39:25,269 --> 00:39:27,050
because then you are saying no.

1112
00:39:28,710 --> 00:39:29,609
You're wrong.

1113
00:39:29,989 --> 00:39:32,329
Yeah. I'm right. Yeah. Yeah.

1114
00:39:32,710 --> 00:39:34,789
And we do that sometimes. Yeah. I do

1115
00:39:34,789 --> 00:39:36,710
that all the time. Yeah. But Jesus is

1116
00:39:36,710 --> 00:39:38,534
just, I think that's why he's saying that.

1117
00:39:38,534 --> 00:39:40,054
It's a wake up call. This is what's

1118
00:39:40,054 --> 00:39:40,715
at stake.

1119
00:39:41,815 --> 00:39:44,375
Don't don't live that way. Don't live calling

1120
00:39:44,375 --> 00:39:45,275
God a liar.

1121
00:39:45,894 --> 00:39:47,574
Yeah. And just like at the end of

1122
00:39:47,574 --> 00:39:49,094
the prayer back in the Sermon on the

1123
00:39:49,094 --> 00:39:51,779
Mount, the model prayer, back in chapter six,

1124
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:54,880
hey, listen. You're gonna forgive. You're not gonna

1125
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,760
be forgiven. Here, it's like, listen. Uh-huh. Hey,

1126
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:00,579
pay attention. This is really, really important. And

1127
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:02,659
and as we go further into

1128
00:40:04,074 --> 00:40:06,795
Matthew's gospel in the new year, in 2026,

1129
00:40:06,795 --> 00:40:09,195
we're gonna work, chapter 29 all the way

1130
00:40:09,195 --> 00:40:11,755
to the end of Matthew's gospel on Easter

1131
00:40:11,755 --> 00:40:12,255
weekend.

1132
00:40:13,434 --> 00:40:15,515
Super excited about that series. But but as

1133
00:40:15,515 --> 00:40:17,980
we do that, we'll see more, like, this

1134
00:40:17,980 --> 00:40:20,480
isn't fair, this isn't you know,

1135
00:40:20,860 --> 00:40:22,940
like, according to the world's economy, this doesn't

1136
00:40:22,940 --> 00:40:23,840
seem fair.

1137
00:40:25,099 --> 00:40:26,719
But to be able to say,

1138
00:40:27,739 --> 00:40:28,880
even if you say,

1139
00:40:30,140 --> 00:40:30,800
I know

1140
00:40:31,635 --> 00:40:33,335
I'm supposed to.

1141
00:40:34,755 --> 00:40:36,054
Like, if you say that,

1142
00:40:36,675 --> 00:40:38,675
but I just can't right now. Uh-huh. I

1143
00:40:38,675 --> 00:40:40,054
would I would say don't

1144
00:40:41,315 --> 00:40:43,554
don't land there. Yeah. Don't land there. That's

1145
00:40:43,554 --> 00:40:44,855
not a safe landing.

1146
00:40:45,394 --> 00:40:46,614
That's different than,

1147
00:40:46,940 --> 00:40:49,500
I don't think I can Yeah. I don't

1148
00:40:49,500 --> 00:40:51,260
know how I can. Right. I don't know

1149
00:40:51,260 --> 00:40:52,400
how I could. Yeah.

1150
00:40:52,940 --> 00:40:54,079
But Jesus

1151
00:40:54,460 --> 00:40:55,680
says it's possible,

1152
00:40:56,539 --> 00:40:57,760
so I'm going to

1153
00:40:58,140 --> 00:41:00,860
follow Jesus on this path. Yeah. And it

1154
00:41:00,860 --> 00:41:02,835
may take a couple years. It may take

1155
00:41:03,714 --> 00:41:05,094
it may be a supernatural

1156
00:41:05,474 --> 00:41:06,934
act of God that happens

1157
00:41:07,394 --> 00:41:08,214
in a millisecond,

1158
00:41:08,594 --> 00:41:10,594
or it could take you five years to

1159
00:41:10,594 --> 00:41:12,295
be able to work through a process.

1160
00:41:12,835 --> 00:41:15,234
And I'd and as long as you're you're

1161
00:41:15,234 --> 00:41:17,094
doing the I'm following Jesus

1162
00:41:17,539 --> 00:41:19,400
on a spirit empowered journey

1163
00:41:20,500 --> 00:41:21,159
of transformation

1164
00:41:21,460 --> 00:41:23,619
over time. Mhmm. Like, I'm I'm I'm not

1165
00:41:23,619 --> 00:41:25,460
gonna be who I was. This is gonna

1166
00:41:25,460 --> 00:41:27,619
transform me. Mhmm. And then I keep working

1167
00:41:27,619 --> 00:41:29,059
on it, and I keep you know? And

1168
00:41:29,059 --> 00:41:31,224
and then along the way, if I think

1169
00:41:31,224 --> 00:41:33,385
he is gracious and kind in it, and

1170
00:41:33,385 --> 00:41:34,445
there's a real

1171
00:41:35,304 --> 00:41:38,184
allegiance question that we demonstrate our allegiance to

1172
00:41:38,184 --> 00:41:41,065
Jesus by saying, I want to want that.

1173
00:41:41,065 --> 00:41:43,304
I I want to want what Jesus wants

1174
00:41:43,304 --> 00:41:44,045
from me.

1175
00:41:44,344 --> 00:41:47,269
Right? I mean, like, I'm six steps removed

1176
00:41:47,269 --> 00:41:49,510
from there. Uh-huh. But, man, I I wanna

1177
00:41:49,510 --> 00:41:51,190
be five. Yeah. And then when I get

1178
00:41:51,190 --> 00:41:53,110
there, I wanna be four. I I still

1179
00:41:53,110 --> 00:41:55,429
don't know how it's gonna happen, but Jesus

1180
00:41:55,429 --> 00:41:57,590
says it's possible. Uh-huh. So I'm gonna go

1181
00:41:57,590 --> 00:41:58,789
to three. I'm gonna go to two. I'm

1182
00:41:58,789 --> 00:42:00,550
gonna go to one. I'm gonna keep at

1183
00:42:00,550 --> 00:42:01,050
it,

1184
00:42:01,485 --> 00:42:03,485
But I feel like if we just go,

1185
00:42:03,485 --> 00:42:05,644
I know that's what Jesus says, but that's

1186
00:42:05,644 --> 00:42:06,545
too hard.

1187
00:42:08,445 --> 00:42:09,825
I think we need to be careful.

1188
00:42:11,085 --> 00:42:13,485
Like, be careful. And that seems to be

1189
00:42:13,485 --> 00:42:15,345
the warning. Yeah. That's the warning. Yeah.

1190
00:42:16,940 --> 00:42:18,460
So this was kind of a heavy one.

1191
00:42:18,460 --> 00:42:19,500
I I was gonna,

1192
00:42:20,219 --> 00:42:20,859
I was gonna,

1193
00:42:21,739 --> 00:42:24,219
unleash some things here. Oh, yeah. This was

1194
00:42:24,219 --> 00:42:26,139
a little heavy for the sound effects. Yeah,

1195
00:42:26,139 --> 00:42:29,579
man. So maybe maybe, Hanukkah will unleash some

1196
00:42:29,579 --> 00:42:30,859
of those. But we do we do need

1197
00:42:30,940 --> 00:42:32,675
no. Yeah. Okay. So we need to we

1198
00:42:32,675 --> 00:42:34,034
need to just talk a little bit about

1199
00:42:34,034 --> 00:42:36,515
Tim Bubar. Everybody loves Tim. Right? Does everybody

1200
00:42:36,515 --> 00:42:37,255
love Tim?

1201
00:42:38,355 --> 00:42:39,175
I don't know.

1202
00:42:40,114 --> 00:42:42,195
But but this is one of those things

1203
00:42:42,195 --> 00:42:44,594
that Mark Hoffman and I would say to

1204
00:42:44,594 --> 00:42:45,815
you all the time.

1205
00:42:46,789 --> 00:42:49,190
And you never knew what we were talking

1206
00:42:49,190 --> 00:42:49,690
about.

1207
00:42:50,789 --> 00:42:53,369
Oh, Hercules. Hercules. Hercules.

1208
00:42:53,909 --> 00:42:54,409
Hercules.

1209
00:42:55,590 --> 00:42:57,349
You guys would quote that, and I thought

1210
00:42:57,349 --> 00:42:59,295
you were I just thought you were quoting

1211
00:42:59,295 --> 00:43:01,534
the Disney there's a Disney animated movie called

1212
00:43:01,534 --> 00:43:02,675
Hercules, I think.

1213
00:43:03,934 --> 00:43:04,974
I just thought it was

1214
00:43:06,014 --> 00:43:07,474
Still, dude, this

1215
00:43:07,934 --> 00:43:09,234
still makes me laugh.

1216
00:43:10,014 --> 00:43:10,974
Yeah. But instead

1217
00:43:11,695 --> 00:43:12,914
Instead, it's from

1218
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:15,839
it's Eddie it's Eddie Murphy. Right? It is.

1219
00:43:15,839 --> 00:43:16,339
Yeah.

1220
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:18,420
In some sort of crazy costume,

1221
00:43:19,119 --> 00:43:21,299
which became his thing, kind of.

1222
00:43:22,079 --> 00:43:24,159
Playing big mama. Yeah. And you guys you

1223
00:43:24,159 --> 00:43:26,000
and Mark referenced it last week. Oh, that's

1224
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:27,359
how that came up. That's why Jesse put

1225
00:43:27,359 --> 00:43:29,280
it on there. In last week's podcast, you

1226
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:31,335
and Mark, Mark used that as a verb

1227
00:43:31,335 --> 00:43:32,934
just like he uses Matthew 18 as a

1228
00:43:32,934 --> 00:43:34,934
verb. He said, I can Hercules and Herculize

1229
00:43:34,934 --> 00:43:37,675
some Hercules somebody all day long. But yeah.

1230
00:43:37,735 --> 00:43:39,175
Yeah. We know we use we use that

1231
00:43:39,175 --> 00:43:41,114
all the time. Yeah. Hercules. Hercules.

1232
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:42,739
Anyway,

1233
00:43:43,119 --> 00:43:45,619
so as we come to

1234
00:43:46,079 --> 00:43:48,639
this point so with that, as we get

1235
00:43:48,639 --> 00:43:51,599
ready to head into this week, Tim Boobar,

1236
00:43:51,599 --> 00:43:53,519
do you have a final word for us?

1237
00:43:53,769 --> 00:43:54,269
Word.

1238
00:43:55,344 --> 00:43:57,425
Very practical. This week, I think Wednesday, I

1239
00:43:57,425 --> 00:43:58,704
think that's what it is. But this week

1240
00:43:58,704 --> 00:44:01,105
in Live It Out, we're gonna read a

1241
00:44:01,105 --> 00:44:03,684
big chunk of Joseph's story.

1242
00:44:04,065 --> 00:44:06,805
So my last word is don't skip it.

1243
00:44:07,359 --> 00:44:09,599
I highly encourage you to listen to it.

1244
00:44:09,599 --> 00:44:11,679
Just click the link if you're on, you

1245
00:44:11,679 --> 00:44:14,800
know, on the website. Just click the link

1246
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:16,480
or listen to it in an app. Listen

1247
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:18,480
to that story and let the whole just

1248
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:19,940
engage with the whole story.

1249
00:44:20,405 --> 00:44:22,085
And it's a story of forgiveness, and it's

1250
00:44:22,085 --> 00:44:24,244
profound and powerful, and it's something only God

1251
00:44:24,244 --> 00:44:27,304
can do. And knowing and believing that story,

1252
00:44:27,364 --> 00:44:28,964
I think, can have an impact on your

1253
00:44:28,964 --> 00:44:29,464
own.

1254
00:44:29,764 --> 00:44:31,864
That's good. And I I almost never

1255
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:34,440
add a tag on here. But if somebody's

1256
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:36,699
still listening to the podcast at this point,

1257
00:44:37,079 --> 00:44:39,900
they're committed. Yeah. And so I would ask

1258
00:44:40,119 --> 00:44:41,960
if you would do the survey that's in

1259
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:43,480
this week's wait it out. We're setting a

1260
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:45,559
baseline as we're going in the catalyst campaign.

1261
00:44:45,559 --> 00:44:47,775
We're setting a baseline for where we are

1262
00:44:47,934 --> 00:44:50,094
when it comes to spiritual transformation. We need

1263
00:44:50,094 --> 00:44:50,835
your participation

1264
00:44:51,135 --> 00:44:52,574
in order for us to set a great

1265
00:44:52,574 --> 00:44:53,074
baseline.

1266
00:44:53,375 --> 00:44:55,375
And then over twelve, twenty four, thirty six

1267
00:44:55,375 --> 00:44:56,275
months. And so,

1268
00:44:56,654 --> 00:44:58,414
it is something that we're gonna do now.

1269
00:44:58,414 --> 00:45:00,174
And six weeks from now, we're gonna ask

1270
00:45:00,174 --> 00:45:01,694
you to do a follow-up. And then twelve

1271
00:45:01,694 --> 00:45:03,650
months, twenty four months, thirty six

1272
00:45:03,949 --> 00:45:05,809
months, really so we can just say,

1273
00:45:06,349 --> 00:45:08,109
how is God at work and what we're

1274
00:45:08,109 --> 00:45:10,190
doing, and, just a way for us to

1275
00:45:10,190 --> 00:45:11,789
try and put a gauge on that. So

1276
00:45:11,789 --> 00:45:13,630
if you would do that this week, greatly

1277
00:45:13,630 --> 00:45:14,130
appreciated.

1278
00:45:14,510 --> 00:45:16,210
That'll be cool. Have a great week.