[0:00] Chris Badgett: Our support queue has like gone down 75%. And our usage has not.

[0:07] Chris Badgett: I want you to interview me until you're 95% certain you have my unique context.

[0:13] Chris Badgett: The problem we have is that a lot of people will go to AI to learn, maybe instead of a course or a membership.

[0:21] Vic Dorfman: Welcome to MemberFix Radio. I'm Vic. My guest today is Chris Badgett, co-founder and CEO of LifterLMS, the WordPress LMS behind millions of course enrollments. A while back, Chris had me on his show, LMScast, and today I get to return the favor. Chris's team has built an AI agent that has read every line of LifterLMS code ever written. And they've just made it possible for AI to work directly on your courses and students. So today I want to find out how a WordPress company actually works with AI and what that means for you if you run a membership or sell courses. Chris, welcome to MemberFix Radio.

[1:11] Chris Badgett: Thanks for having me, Vic. I'm super excited for this conversation.

[1:15] Vic Dorfman: Me too. And when you first had me on LMScast, that episode went out at the end of 2023. What's changed? And I'm being a little cheeky with this question. What's changed most at LifterLMS since then?

[1:29] Chris Badgett: I mean, I would probably say the influence of AI. It it's affecting everybody from software developers at Lifter to the agencies that build sites for clients to students themselves when they're trying to learn something to teachers. It's just rippled through all parts of e-learning. So that's really what's changed the most and just adapting to that landscape and trying to empower people, all those different stakeholders in all the different ways.

[2:01] Vic Dorfman: Yeah, and we were talking off camera that it's a really exciting time for us as professionals in this space to to be doing our work. It's it's rejuvenated some of the enthusiasm that the daily grind of business can sometimes whittle away. Do you feel that way? Do you feel reinvigorated?

[2:20] Chris Badgett: 100%. And and what I wanna do is like spread that. I I think of it kind of like as a WordPress moment. So like when WordPress came out and I found it in 2008, myself as a non-developer could create and publish a website and put up a message that anybody in the world would see. And that was just mind blowing to me. But I feel like we're in one of those once in a decade kind of moments right now with AI, where if you use it and har- harness all that intelligence, it makes you more productive, but it also gives you more time. So the big decision is what do you do with that time? And if you're an entrepreneur, you have plenty of things to do. But it's it's just such a cool, powerful moment.

[3:11] Vic Dorfman: Yeah, and you actually built an AI agent for your team to work with your code base called Maurice. What are some exciting ways that you're using it internally?

[3:23] Chris Badgett: Well first I just wanna say context is the name of the game. Like using ChatGPT or Claude out of the box is awesome and it's cool. But when you give an agent or your instance more context, it's just amazing what it can do. So it's every line of code, every YouTube video we've published, every podcast episode, twelve years of conversations in our support desk, which is powered by Help Scout, our Google Analytics, our Stripe metrics. And I'm just scratching the surface. Everything that's happened in ActiveCampaign, our CRM over the past 12 years, all the tags and you know, customer journey, like everything. So once it has all that context, it's just even more useful. So I want to say that. But there's a lot that it does for education entrepreneurs who are building sites. So for example, one of the things I'm most excited about is I'm trying to share what we've discovered, like you, Vic, the early adopter like insights with everybody else. So one of the things we did recently at LifterLMS is we created over a hundred MCP endpoints, which just means ways for AI to interact with a learning management system website. So in the past, LifterLMS has always had an API, which allows developers to extend the software and, you know, build mobile apps or do other like custom things. But when you translate an API to an MCP, then anybody with their AI agent or Claude or ChatGPT can start just talking to their website, which is really that's why I say it's a WordPress moment. It's kind of a mind-blowing thing when, you know, you don't necessarily have to click on all the settings and do all the things and read all the documentation and know where everything is. You can just talk to your AI and let it know what kind of e-learning experience you want to build, if you want it to grade assignments for you, if you want it to analyze your order data and come up with a marketing strategy and all kinds of things, it's now totally possible. But I think it's our job as technologists to, you know, help bring everybody else into the tent and see what's possible with AI in a constructive, positive way.

[6:05] Vic Dorfman: It sounds like based on what you're saying, Chris, that a lot of the uses with an MCP server or or with just generally being able to connect AI to your website and to your tech stack, the uses are somewhat maybe mundane or pedestrian, but that's actually what makes it exciting from from a business perspective and for for a business owner or or membership site or course site owner is that a lot of the things that used to be such a pain in the butt to do can now be done quickly, accurately, instantly more or less things like pulling reports. And and and gleaning gleaning insights from those reports, those are the kinds of things that would require you to set aside all this extra time. Whereas now you could just set a goal in Claude Code or ChatGPT or whatever and just have it work overnight or while you're at the gym or bring it up on your mobile phone or while you're on the train. Or it's so it's a lot of what I would say boring, quote unquote boring things that that are somehow made exciting by AI because they're so accessible and they don't feel like such a burden to the to the business.

[7:23] Chris Badgett: Yeah, is I think of it like in two ways. One way is as an entrepreneur, if you're humble, you can you there's this idea that you wanna hire people smarter than you to in your team, right? And in various tasks and things like that. But we basically all have PhD level personal assistants that can help us, particularly with those deep work, intensive data organization things, like never before, and have it done in minutes instead of weeks. That's like a it's a huge, huge unlock. And the other big idea is really the concept of what's sometimes called a second brain. So the if you really want to get the most out of AI, you have to feed it a lot of context. So if you're you know, an expert website builder for clients, or you're an education entrepreneur, you know, you have all this stuff all over the place. You might have a podcast, a YouTube channel, a website, a book you wrote. Ten, twenty, thirty years of email history, you can feed all that and much, much more into your AI. And that's the superpower is really building that second brain. And I think one of the biggest challenges in the e-learning space that course creators and coaches and people building membership sites need to figure out is like, okay, the the problem we have is that a lot of people will go to AI to learn, maybe instead of a course or a membership. But like you as a human and an expert in the space, like how can you design a learning experience that's better than just what the generic large language model is gonna do, like a ChatGPT or a Claude, if you're trying to get help with something? And I find that question really interesting. And I think there's a lot that course creators, coaches, membership site builders can do to add value on top of information.

[9:43] Vic Dorfman: For example.

[9:47] Chris Badgett: Well, one is curation. So, you know, you can find a lot of ideas on the internet, on YouTube, in a large large language model. But you know, curating the best stuff for a specific customer avatar or ideal customer profile is like a different thing. So that whole thing that we hear in social media, everything where people like the the role of the human is to provide taste, like to provide an opinion, to provide a point of view, that's one thing. So just like curating the best stuff is one. Two is what I call support mechanisms. So if you're just selling information, like say a Udemy course. Th- that's gonna be really challenging going forward because AI already has all the you know, the information that's publicly available in a lot of these courses and whatnot. But it's about the personalized support, the coaching, the community. And it's not like you have to do all these things. But humans like the desire to connect and belong in a community has never been higher. So not just designing like content, but an actual experience that includes human interaction that's helpful, useful, relevant, has a vibe of belonging, that's really powerful going forward. And humans are hungry for that. So it's like, yeah, we got the information, we have our AI brains, and we're doing all this stuff, but people still want to connect with other people and get help from personalized help from other humans that are not just using science, which is what AI is, essentially. It's data-driven, logical. There's this creative component, this intuition component that only humans can deliver.

[11:48] Vic Dorfman: Okay. Yeah, you just made me think of a of a funky little video I saw online of people going to a nightclub in Japan and they've all got their phones with them. It's not a typical nightclub. It's just a place where you sit down and it's playing super, super chill ambient music, and everybody's just quietly sitting there on in their own little bubble w- with their phones. And obviously that's an extreme interpretation of of that s- scenario, but a little bit of a...

[12:17] Chris Badgett: People. They still wanna be together, right? They still wanna be in space with other humans.

[12:26] Vic Dorfman: Exactly, exactly. In in some kind of, I suppose, uniquely Japanese way. And but I I wanna go back real quick to the idea of the second brain because I think there's a really potentially a nice practical gold nugget for for our listeners. Because I think I certainly have this misconception that of course, context is everything, but that doesn't mean that AI can, at a moment's notice, take all of your context and and and consider it for a particular purpose. Rather, what it does is it determines what information it needs based on what conversation you're having. And so you kind of need to route it to the correct places, right? And so for a second brain type scenario, I assume you're using something like Obsidian.

[13:16] Chris Badgett: I mean our we're we're not using Obsidian. We more just use our agent who we call Maurice to like hold all the context. And for for us, like when I say second brain, as an advanced AI user, I'm thinking of like skills libraries, project folders, personality loops, like automated tasks that repeat and things like that. But it's mostly about like the integrations. 'Cause the problem is humans are really spread out. Like most of us don't have everything we've ever done and and know like on our website. So the the challenge with building a second brain is like, well, how do you get you in there? So, you know, it's connecting all the tools and and then it it actually gets even more challenging when you work with the team. So it's one thing for a single individual to have their second brain, but then there's all these humans who do other things like at a company, you know, talk to customers, write code, have their own sources of knowledge and things like that. So just like getting it all in to the agent, in my view, is the that's how we do the second brain. However, I have been looking at Obsidian and thinking about doing something like that. That would be very cool as well.

[14:40] Vic Dorfman: Okay, so the general concept is you externalize all of your knowledge and you put everything in one place so that your harness or your agent, whatever, can access that information and it'll, for the most part, know what to look for. Based on how you how you ask a question, it'll it'll contextually understand, oh, I actually need to go look in this folder for this thing. And in your 10.0 launch of LifterLMS post, you wrote that in an AI world, human expertise becomes the product. And now that AI is becoming so integral to how we all work, it can be quite hard to know, even for technologists, but I think probably more especially for lay people, so to speak, where and when it's appropriate to lean on AI versus when primarily a human should be directing the action or doing the t- the task or the knowledge work. Do you have any philosophy or rules of thumb on developing that level of discernment? Like this is where human needs to be in the loop. This is where AI needs to be doing its thing. And primarily I'm asking not so much f- for yourself, but more for like a customer of LifterLMS, what would be appropriate for their use case?

[16:05] Chris Badgett: The biggest thing I would say is the human in the loop. I call it the human knowledge dump. So like if you're gonna create a course as an example, you could just say, hey, AI, create me a course about XYZ. But in my view, you can do that, but what you want to do is before you create that. I want you to interview me until you're 95% certain you have my unique context, points of view, resources, influences that have inspired me and so on to to like really make it unique. Not just for the sake of being unique, but the human input really, really matters. So like if I and I've I created a YouTube video about this, like how to create an online course with ChatGPT. This was a a while ago, but it still stands up. The most important lesson in there is the human knowledge dump, which is and I show people how to create in in the example I used, I think I created like a 60 page Google document. That came from me just talking to AI, copying and pasting like pillar sources that I really believe in that would be important to this and so on, and then make the course. So that's the human knowledge dump part is important. I was talking to a course creator just the other day and they said something really interesting which was that working with AI has made them a better public speaker. And I use it was a big unlock for me because I'm a slow typer. I started using Wispr Flow, where I could just talk to, you know, to the AI and tran-, you know, transform that into text much faster than I could type. That was like 10X productivity. But whenever I do something with AI or whenever a a course creator or coach or whoever is creating e-learning content, I recommend they do a lot of talking and and really like bulk out the input. It's not like I just want this result. It's like, yes, I want this result, but 90% of the time I'm gonna be talking to you or dropping in files and resources and context to to make it mine. So that's in my opinion, that's the most important part. And then that that, you know, the large language model underneath is gonna fill in the gaps, you know, provide other resources and stuff, but doing the human knowledge dump is like so important. So most of what I do with AI, it probably I'm talking to it for much longer than it's processing and spitting out things. So as an example like ev- even me as a non-developer, instead of showing up to a company meeting where I'm like, hey, let's build this new product, like recently, we build a new product called Name Your Price, which allows people buying courses and memberships to, you know, have flexible pricing, which is for things like support the creator or global reach, where you you can like offer the same thing, but different parts of the world, people can pay less or more. Or maybe you're doing price discovery where you're trying to figure out what the thing you made is actually work- worth. But, anyways, instead of showing up to the meeting and being like, hey, I think we should build this add-on for this reason, I actually showed up with a working plugin that already did what we're supposed to. What I wanted to do. And as a non-developer, of course, I want my engineering team to like use it, check it out, throw it away, or use it and modify it and make it actually solid, secure, and and put it through the paces of a real developer. But creating that new add-on with AI, it's mostly about the conversation of like why we're doing this, what we wanted to do. Hey, let's follow these patterns from this other thing for like group memberships that we do and all this other stuff. So that the the UI is good and everything. But it's all about that, you know, huge amount of conversation before the output.

[20:41] Vic Dorfman: Yeah, and I I would I would say that's super important because precisely because AI fills in the gap so well, right? It if if you don't give sufficient context, if you don't kind of clobber it over the head with, hey, this is what I want this thing to look like, it'll just make a bunch of sometimes very ridiculous assumptions. And the maddening thing about it is too that it'll sound kind of plausible. I've been having this conversation with folks, is that if you, for example, if you have AI write copy, a non-copywriter like myself would look at it and be like, oh, that's great copy. That's this is gonna, this is gonna, this is gonna crush it. But then a real copywriter who has been doing it for 10 years and has written multi-million dollar sales pages and knows what they're doing is gonna look at it and be like, this isn't gonna sell thing one. But it it sounds that way because AI is so good at at at making things seem plausible, you know? And I think like a good way to visualize that is to think about how AI renders video avatars, you know, it kind of messes up the fingers, it messes up the mouth, and it's like, oh, that kind of looks like a person, but that's not really a person. Although I think we're quickly heading into it being pretty indistinguishable from from humans. It's it's just getting hard to to pick it up now. Yeah.

[22:14] Chris Badgett: Yeah, copywriting, I love copywriting personally. I don't consider myself like an expert copywriter, but I've been doing it I've been writing words that sell for a long time. And I see the gaps if I just use AI by itself. And so I I use that like 10-80-10 principle. So 10% up front, let AI do the heavy lifting, but you need to like review the output at the end to make sure it's solid. And so that 10-80-10 framework is like super useful. If you skip the 10 on the front end, you're not providing good context and you're gonna get generic. And then if you skip the the 10% on the end, you're just kind of crossing your fingers and hoping for the best. So yeah, it's always good to have a human in the loop. Like there's very little situations, just like I said with creating a new piece of software for LifterLMS. I wasn't like, cool, we're good. I built it. I was like, all right, real humans gonna look at it, work with their AI, harden it, you know, review the code themselves, make it super tight, secure, you know, make sure it works well and everything. The you the user experience is rock solid, and then it ships.

[23:39] Vic Dorfman: Yeah, it makes total sense. And you're coming back to your Maurice agent. You talked in August, you actually talked about putting Maurice in your developer Slack for the agencies that build on LifterLMS. How do you anticipate agencies and qualified experts using the tool that you built to help your mutual customers?

[24:04] Chris Badgett: Yeah, we haven't we haven't put Maurice front facing yet, but I want to. The biggest benefit the way I think about it is Maurice can see every line of code that LifterLMS has written. So we have a complex core learning management system, which is actually free, but then we have like 25 different add-ons that extend and do a lot of different things. So anytime so so the way I think about it is this like I was interviewing a developer the other day on my podcast and they were like, you know what, the code is the single source of truth, like when it comes to software. And then, you know, us marketers like me get a hold of it and we write blog posts and then team members write documentation and sometimes the blog post is leaving out some details or the documentation maybe missed something or the software has evolved past that point that it's been written but the code is always the single source of truth. So that's that's one of the cool things about Maurice. So if like an agency is building a learning management system website and they have a client and a client has requirements it's like Maurice would be very like straightforward about like what's possible out of the box, which is likely a lot, but in my experience particularly higher end clients are like 95% happy and then they want like this five percent thing that doesn't exist. Maurice could then like coach them through that custom plugin or additional tweaks or hosting configuration or whatever to like optimize and make the client go from 95% to 100%. And because Maurice has all that context, it's n- and not just the code, like what other people have done and all this stuff. It it's just gonna really accelerate the outside world just like it has inside the company.

[26:19] Vic Dorfman: Yeah, it makes total sense because the the logic of how the plugin works and what it's capable of doing and all of the classes and functions and methods and so forth are in the context that you give to AI. So then it's it's it's not assuming things. It's not making things up. It's like, okay, here's my reference and and my primary source, right? The source of truth as as you put it. But for someone listening who runs a membership or or e-learning site of some sort and isn't really interested in becoming an AI power user per se, but wants to take steps in the right direction, what is one thing, one step that they could take to continuing to ad- adopt and adapt with AI?

[27:10] Chris Badgett: There's several. Like I'll I'll give a couple pro tips. Like if you're using you're just getting started and you're using ChatGPT or Claude. One thing you can do is you can actually take like LifterLMS, the plugin as a zip file, and just drop it into the chat. And then the AI will like read all that code. You can actually do that same thing with WordPress code itself, like the core WordPress software. So you can just try to provide more context about what you're trying to do. And you'd be amazed at how much AI can handle like huge amounts of data, whether that's lines of code, you know, a bunch of PDF documents or whatever. So just like push more than you think is possible to the AI and prepare to be amazed. So that's one. Another one is to just be honest about your strengths and weaknesses. So if you have issues with like project management and getting the project over the finish line, use AI to help, you know, project manage a project for you. Like ask it like, hey, what should I do today? This is where I'm at. And then just listen to what it says, give it the context of where you're at, what you've done, what needs to be done, and so on, and let it like chunk down the next steps. So using AI to fill in your weaknesses. And maybe it's like the technology piece. Like maybe you're trying to configure the options on your hosting account, or you're trying to set up a piece of software, or you're trying to integrate CRM or marketing automation tool and you're like, hey, I heard I need a lead magnet. Can you walk me through the steps on what I need to do and what I need to do in my Mailchimp account to make this possible? It's you know, like as an example, LifterLMS support, like our support queue has like gone down 75%. And our usage has not. And I think what's going on is that people are just not not waiting for customer support to like send a ticket, get the ticket back. They're just going to AI and be like, hey, how do I do this in LifterLMS? How do I do this thing in Mailchimp? How do I do this thing in my hosting account? How do I do this thing in my email? So like just ask when you're stuck.

[29:49] Vic Dorfman: It's actually a huge benefit for the the software producers like LifterLMS. I was I was thinking about this. I've I have been thinking about this for a while that even even acquisition of plugins by private equity notwithstanding, where s- support usually takes a turn for the worst, right? Even companies that are still owned by the founders and are founder led and so forth. It's like now you don't really need the support of the developer to the same degree because of exactly what you just said. You could just pop all that context into AI. And so much the better if you actually have somebody on your team who's a technical professional, who's a developer, because then they're so much more leverage than you would be because they actually know about this area of expertise. Whereas you won't know if it knows or doesn't, right? Like you're not in a position to judge as a non-developer. But it's getting to the point where even that's becoming less of a barrier, right? Because if you give it enough context and it's the right context, you don't need to be a developer. It'll, it'll just, you can essentially just auto accept everything and it'll probably get it right. And one pro tip that I can give too is oftentimes if because I was telling you off camera that now I'm tinkering with with using AI for editing video, and I'm kind of blown away by how good it is and how how accurate it is. Like these are the edits that a human would make. And but when I was setting up that whole system, I knew that it's that Claude's not going to get it right. It it doesn't really have enough context and guidance. So the first thing I asked it to do is I said, okay, launch a subagent or a couple of subagents using Sonnet and Firecrawl. Like huge shout out to Firecrawl. It's probably one of the like most underutilized things ever. It's so good because it searches really, really well and it scrapes data really well. Better than like the native search of Claude. And I said, go like find me some skills. Go find me some go research how to how AI should edit stuff and then download those skills, check them for malware, make sure there's no prompt injections or anything. And then let's start building up our own set of rules and guardrails. So that we can continuously iterate and improve. And I think the first time I edited a video with AI, it took like seven hours for it to run. Because I had to download a bunch of stuff, I had to research a bunch of stuff and figure it out. And it did a pretty good job for a one-shot. But then this after doing that and giving a feedback loop from our producer and our editor, it cut down to an hour and a half and it did a substantially better job. And just last night I left it running overnight to edit the podcast that I did with David Risley. And it did such a freaking good job. It outputted the whole long form video, all the shorts with all the captions and subtitles. It picked the shorts itself. It edited out a bunch of sort of fluff conversations that we had, and it produced the blog post, it produced all the social media posts. And I think it took like two hours to run. And I woke up and it was all in Google Drive. It had already sent it all to my producer to approve it. And I'm like, dude, this is crazy, crazy good.

[33:25] Chris Badgett: I think that's awesome. And what you're saying, Vic, is it to me is the most important part, which is it's about iteration. Like if you do something, then do it again and train your AI like, hey, you said this, but this is the actual published blog post that we did or the published lesson that we did, you know. Add to your skill or update the skill so that in the future it's closer to this or let's remove this inefficiency and so on. And I I do want to give a shout out to AutoMem, which is the memory system that we use. Jack Arturo at WP Fusion created that. So like when it's one thing to give AI context and skills and projects and loops and all these things, but once it has like a prof- persistent memory, that's where the game really changes. And it it you go from like, you know, regular chat based AI where every time you start a new chat, it has no memory of what's happened before. Maybe you put a system prompt in about who you are and it remembers that. But if you install a memory system, it it really unlocks, particularly when you're iterating and trying to improve things over time. That's really powerful. And for people who are new to AI, I had to learn this lesson, which is that hey, Chris mentioned AutoMem and installing a memory system, but I don't know how to do that. Neither did neither did I. But you can just ask the AI, here's AutoMem. I want to use it. Talk to me like I'm a 12 year old and help me get this thing set up. And it will, and then as soon as you don't understand something, just be like, hey, I didn't get that. Can you explain that to me again or whatever? So memory, like a memory system is a a huge unlock as well.

[35:21] Vic Dorfman: Yeah, I'm a I'm a big fan and user of AutoMem as well. And actually Jack was on the podcast a little while ago too, talking about it. And it's what's cool about it. Well, first of all, it's free. And I did this exactly the same thing you did, which was like, okay, I have no idea about Docker or any of this stuff. Like, walk me through it. And I was just talking with Terminal for an hour. But what's cool about it is it doesn't, it's not like a literal transcript of everything that you that you've discussed with AI, but what it does, it's kind of a complex model and you can read about it on the site. It's based on neuroscience, and it's it's kind of this whole thing that Jack did with a broken leg in the hospital. He's a genius. But what it basically does is it gives you a persistent memory layer across all your different sessions, and it saves summaries and key ideas and links them in kind of a neural net, very much like like an Obsidian second brain type of a of a thing, but it's it's automated for the most part. And it does seem to improve the quality of the outputs. Well I I wouldn't know because I have been using it for like a year, so I wouldn't know what it would be like without that. But it sounds like you have the experience that without a memory layer, you're kind of starting from scratch on every session in a sense. I mean Claude has its own memory, but it's not as robust.

[36:47] Chris Badgett: Yeah, it's not as robust and it it and even if you call it out, you're like, hey, store a memory of this, but it will automatically do it anyways, like whatever you're working on and it it's just like context on steroids. It's not just like, oh, we have all these resources to pull from. It's also like, hey, we've seen this movie before. And it just it's it has ultimate context.

[37:13] Vic Dorfman: You are a copywriter. You're like context on steroids. That's a great headline for AutoMem. Give that one [to] Jack. You can have it. That's that's that's a freebie. So what's next for LifterLMS? What do you guys have in the hopper for the next year or so?

[37:28] Chris Badgett: We're just continuing down the line. The fun part is, you know, we're moving ten times faster than we have before, mostly because of AI and of course because of a talented team and all that. But so it's fun to move fast. What I find interesting in AI is that the bottleneck has moved in tech companies. It used to be engineering was the bottleneck, like writing code, creating product. That's changed. Marketing and s- you know, sales, but like lead generation, getting new orders is like the next frontier in terms of leveraging AI. So to me I'm trying to figure out how to help more people who are education entrepreneurs do what they want to do and and have them discover LifterLMS as an option. Like, yes, we're continuing to make awesome product. It's never been more AI ready, we're AI forward company. We believe strongly that the human behind the project is just as important as all the tech and information. But you know, there's there's like a change in society, right? Like some of the smartest developers I know say that they don't even write code anymore. And I find that really interesting because, you know, they figured out how to become like a AI orchestrator. And they don't necessarily need to read every line of code. Like they have systems and processes in place and, you know, memories and models for development that is l- that are in place. So it it it just works. So like AI is coming for everything, particular and code was like kind of the first thing to fall in in my view. Like these disrupted developers, I think we can learn a lot from them. And the ones that have transcended to AI orchestrator, is an interesting concept. But it doesn't but they're still a human in the loop and they're still needed in the role that they do. But when it comes to things like marketing and sales and e-learning experience design and, you know, tutoring, coaching, all these things, like AI is already at the party. But how do we help all the humans who want to teach and coach and help people or even in business contexts like developing internal training or continuing education and things like that? Like how do we help all these people, you know, do what they need to do and just be humans in the AI world that are of value? So that's where I spend most of my time.

[40:23] Vic Dorfman: Yeah, that's super fascinating, Chris. Especially because anything dealing with human psychology, so sales, marketing, that's where AI is going to have the hardest time. Getting those nuances, that's where the human in the loop really becomes. Like code is actually [Chris: Science.] very... Yeah, it's science, it's logic, it it it is it's very amenable to to AI use cases. And but it again, still you you need to be, 'cause those developers, they are not generating the code, but they are approving the code and they're refining the systems that that write QA and deploy that code and maintain that that code base. And if you're a non-developer, you wouldn't know how to do any of that stuff because you would have had to learn it. So it actually raises even a more interesting question is like, are there going to be new developers who know how to code from scratch anymore? Is that even going to be a thing? Or is that going to be like learning shorthand? You know, something you do just for fun as a hobby. You know what I mean?

[41:35] Chris Badgett: I think it is. Like, I think of that like organic food. We're gonna have like it's sort of like a craftsman type thing for organically human-made things, whether that's marketing or code or products, you know, it's the it's the craftsperson thing, is I I think that's like a trend. And I think membership site creators should think about that a lot in terms of like how are they indisputable sages or craftsmen of their craft. Without technology. It's sort of like that thing. Like I've done a lot of mountain climbing and mountaineering and rock climbing in my day. And when you're new, you show up with all this gear and all this stuff and you do the thing. But as you get better, you you bring less technology. And I'm not like a big free solo guy, like no rope, nothing. But you know, it's it's a thing to really know how to do something from scratch, like with your hands. And there there will be demand for that, but you know, faster, better, cheaper is always a momentum in the economy that's, you know, if you can do something for cheap and it's decent quality, like there will be a huge market for that. But there will be like that craftsman style niche in the market.

[43:04] Vic Dorfman: A carbon-based coding. Still be still be around. So where can people find you? I know you have a course, a free course at academy.lifterlms.com. Where should we direct folks to to learn more about Lifter and what you guys are up to?

[43:24] Chris Badgett: Yeah, if you're digging this episode, check out our free course on how to create an online course with ChatGPT. And again, that's not like a single prompt, like make me a course about X. It's like 15 lessons, 15 prompts. You do have to do the hard work of the human knowledge dump in the middle. But like check that out. You can find me at lifterlms.com. I'm easy to reach out to on X. And I have a podcast that I've been doing for over 12 years called LMScast.

[43:57] Vic Dorfman: Amazing Chris. Thanks so much for coming on MemberFix Radio. Hope to do it again sometime.

[44:02] Chris Badgett: Thanks, Vic.