Alright. We are live. We tried to wait
for for Isaac,
but he he's he's late as usual.
I don't know what his excuse is today,
but I'm sure he's got,
an okay one, a decent one.
But at any rate, I appreciate you guys,
joining us, tuning in.
Today's gonna be a a pretty
pretty fun one. I think it's gonna be
a pretty fun one.
We wanted to start off with with John,
and I'll have him introduce himself,
in just a a tad bit. But I
think a a couple weeks ago,
John sent me a a message
on social medias
saying things
about
the way we're we're advertising,
some classes.
And there's Isaac. We are live, so don't
say anything about
how you
how you love The Rock naked.
I haven't said that in a long time.
It's been a while.
I was I was just setting the scene,
so you didn't miss much, but I was
setting the scene.
I love your board. The board is dope.
Shit is awesome. The four rules suck. That's
that's a great one. Maybe we'll talk about
that later on. But, yeah, John, like like
I was saying, John, hit me up,
And he says, hey. What the fuck?
Why are you saying
that
people need if I remember correctly, people don't
need to take the class. If you already
took the the class for, four or five
years ago, six years ago, whatever, that counts.
You're making it hard for us instructors
because now the Denver people are gonna pass
more laws.
And, obviously, I told him how I disagree,
and he says, well, I I don't know
if we disagree, but,
you're fucking shut up for the world. So
I was like, well, this would be good
for for the Internet.
Why don't we we have this discussion on
the Internet? Because,
I always appreciate a human who instead of
going on
a on a signal
chat room,
goes directly to the people that they disagree
with or have an issue with. And,
this is how we become better, and this
is how we understand each other, and this
is how
how we interact with with other human beings
even if we disagree with them.
So
I'm gonna let John say his version,
because I said my version. So I think
it's only appropriate for for John to say
his version
and his account. But before you do that,
tell the humans
that are listening
and that will listen,
what Seven Hills Security is and what you're
all about. And then after that, you can
give your version of this.
Hey. Thanks, Edgar. I I really appreciate it.
Thanks for both your time, both Isaac and
Edgar.
My name is John Pusheen. I'm I'm the
owner and operator of Seven Hills Security.
I primarily focus now on firearms training, security
training, and de escalation.
I'm a retired law enforcement, former military.
I've done stuff on the federal level as
well.
Trained in both, the law enforcement and,
the military levels.
And,
Edgar's
explanation is
pretty on par except for the expletives. I
tried to say, like, those.
So,
but, yes, I I fully agree with the,
you know, civilly disagreeing with one another, and
we're in the same realm here.
We're all instructors. We we all wanna promote
safe firearms
instruction, I believe.
The and it's the, I believe I put
it as a poke in the bear
as far as
going out
so far
for recognizing
classes.
And that's something that I would like to
get into deeper because different jurisdictions within the
state of Colorado are dealing with that specific
point
very differently.
And there's no
there is no concrete
line on how to actually handle that. So
that is up for debate. It is up
for discussion.
I'm here in Larimer County. I'm a Larimer
County verified instructor. Number one on the list
for all those out there. You don't have
to go too far.
So
even Larimer County is dealing with it differently.
They're putting a cap on how long
beforehand
the the classes are good for, which is
not in the law.
So
everyone's dealing with it differently. We as instructors,
as you know, we have a
we're scratching our head on how to figure
out how to navigate this this new law
because it is vague, it is ambiguous,
and trying to figure out what to do
in a reasonable way
that
doesn't,
that well, let's focus on the focus on
the positive that does get education out there
to the people.
Yeah. So, again, I I just wanna thank
you for for jumping on a little explanation
of of who you are and what you're
all about and and all that stuff. And
and I'm glad my memory doesn't
doesn't fail me that bad just yet. But
I I I do want to
kinda discuss what the law says. Right? Because
we get this a lot.
We get this with,
a lot of instructors. They're like, well, this
jurisdiction is doing this and this jurisdiction. Like,
for us, we don't give a shit. The
law is the law. And if I have
to follow the law, the sheriff has to
follow the law. Eighteen twelve two zero one
prohibits,
sheriffs from making their own laws,
and the law is very clear that the
law is actually not ambiguous. The law is
is actually super clear. Clear. It says,
very specifically, the eight hours of instructions in
a course do not need to be consecutive.
Hard stop.
There there is nothing that says or prohibits
us.
There's no time sensitivity. There's nothing that says
the eight hours must be done within ninety
days, within sixty days, within six months, within
a year.
It is a hard stop. The eight hours
of instruction in a course do not need
to be consecutive.
And and I think this is the the
difference. Right? This is the difference between,
regular instructors,
and and I hate to categorize it like
that. So and and I don't I don't
mean it in any type of way, but
instructors
who are just instructors
and Guns for Everyone National, who is an
international organization,
we we operate not just here in The
US, but but we conduct classes in other
countries as well. So I think that's the
difference is we are willing
to go fight the bear. We we won't
just poke that motherfucker. We will wrestle with
it. We we will we will do the
Lombardo with it. We will we will fight.
We've sued your county, and we won.
We were successful during COVID when they wanted
to do silly stuff,
and we got them to to change their
ways. Now,
if we need to do it again, we
will definitely do it again.
And and we're not very liked because of
this because a lot of organizations
that
that deal with our in our space are
friends with your sheriff. They're friends with your
neighboring sheriff,
Reem's.
And and we'll call that Reem's bullshit, and
we'll call it because we're not we're not
we don't mind being friendly with these people,
but we're also not gonna tolerate
the bullshit because it hurts the the
the student at the end of the day.
So,
go for
it. There's another,
issue which is coming up across the counties,
which I think is relevant for for you,
John,
because you're so close to to Weld County.
And this is as far as I understand,
this is happening. It might have changed in
the last
several weeks,
but there are a handful of sheriffs that
are requiring that the student must take the
class from an instructor that is verified within
the county that they're trying to get their
permit in, which
is not lawful and limits
the student's selection of who they train with.
Larimer County is not a small county,
but
the market share for Larimer County would be
much bigger if it included
the North Denver Metro Area.
If you have sheriffs who
are not following
the law,
they need to be stood up for, against
on all of these points, not just some
of these points
because
it affects the student, it affects the instructor,
and it affects people's perception of what what
they can be doing or should be doing
within their own counties.
So Larimer County did put out, an email
and informational to all the verified instructors
stating that,
the
verified instructor
certification
would be
allowed to cross those county lines as you're
talking about.
What they suggested we do is we simply
write on any certificate
that we were Larimer County, that we are
Larimer County verified instructors. So if it does
go outside of Larimer County,
they have a way to look it up
expeditiously.
Just check out the Larimer County site, find
the person on that site. But I agree
there's there's a
that's what happens with this new law. It
appears is that everyone's interpreting in it differently.
Part of what I meant when I was
talking about the laws ambiguous is not just
this one section about the eight hours. There's
a lot more inside that law. As a
retired law enforcement, that section about teach how
to deal with law enforcement when you're armed,
that can vary person by person.
And I I don't know your guys' background.
I don't know if you've ever been in
law enforcement, but if you've never been in
law enforcement, now you're supposed to teach that.
How do you do that? Mhmm. So that's
very subjective.
And I teach with a number of guys
up here up in Northern Colorado,
roughly four or five guys.
None of them have been in law enforcement.
They're all civilian based law enforcement instructors,
great instructors and absolutely.
But they've never had that other side of
the badge
experience on how to deal with someone with
a firearm.
And now civilian instructors are supposed to somehow
teach that. So it's not just this one
section about the eight hours. It has a
lot there are a lot of other things
inside the law. And, no, I'm not a
politician. I'm not a lawyer. But trying to
put this stuff onto civilian
instructors who have no real world experience,
education, or background is very tough on them.
I wanna
add on to your point there because that
part of the law doesn't just say how
to deal with law enforcement
when you have a firearm. It says in
emergency situations,
which is even more ambiguous,
when it comes to, like, what kind of
emergency are we talking about. And then on
top of that,
the requirement to teach what the law states
around the
carrying, possession, purchasing,
storage of firearms,
the law has gotten complex enough that
I don't even feel like in good faith
I can teach
the what the spirit of the law is
asking me to do
to somebody in an eight hour class. I
really think that it should be a lawyer
that's covering
this stuff in the if if we're going
to teach to what the law states here,
the responsible way to do that would be
to teach to have a lawyer come in
and cover all that stuff if we're trying
to really, meet the spirit of the law
here. Because even even as a law enforcement
officer
who's interacted with parts of the law constantly,
that doesn't mean that you know how to
interpret
the next new thing in the law.
I agree with you 100%
where where the ambiguity
comes in if the state,
the legislature on the state level puts out
a class,
a section of a class
for the instructors to
play for through recording
to their students, then everyone can be on
the same page. I guarantee you all three
of us can teach this very same class
by the statute
completely different because of our own
experience
and
style of teaching. We're gonna interpret it three
different ways. And that shouldn't happen. If you
if there's going to be a law that
affects instructors on how we put out information
to students,
then we should have a guideline. And there
hasn't been any guideline whatsoever
given to any of us as instructors.
In in addition to that,
having
just a a complete lack of guidance
from the state level. And I'm not talking
to sheriffs. The sheriffs are put in a
horrible spot, in my opinion.
This law is coming from the state. So
from the state level, there's no guidance set
down other than
what can be interpreted in this law. So
now the sheriff's departments are dealing with with
it differently. The instructors are dealing with it
differently. And now you have no consistent training
to be put out there for the students.
I fully agree with higher education
when possible
put out there to as many people as
possibly can.
But it need it should be consistent.
Yeah. It should be consistent
consistent within what is useful and,
correct
to
to to teach the students. So you said
that, you know, the three of us would
all teach it differently based on our own
understanding. We'd also teach it differently,
and you said this earlier, based on the
student. So if you're gonna teach somebody how
to interact with law enforcement
and within five minutes, you're like, this person
maybe doesn't have
as many IQ points as this other person
does,
you might instruct them a little bit differently
or based on their background or their experience
with law enforcement. So it's also highly dependent
on the class or the student that you're
talking to and what needs to be communicated
to that person.
It's one of the reasons why mandated training
and structured mandated training
is
is a is a risk, not a benefit
to the learning process and helping
helping
people learn how to
safely carry and handle a firearm in public.
Absolutely.
So back to
the the original point. Yes, sir.
The
if if if you are an instructor
who
is concerned with guns for everyone
following the law
to a tee,
which is not something we like to do
and or or advocate for, we usually are
more on the
the politicians don't know anything, and they create
really bad laws.
So the more compliant we are, the more
they get away with. So it's it's this
this thing. So
here's here's my my position, and I don't
know if I expressed this to you when
we were having our it it wasn't a
a a huge back and forth. I think
we said a couple of things, and then
we agreed, yeah, let let's have a further
conversation about this. And and the law gets
lost in text. That's the other thing I
don't like about text is
we don't know what what the intentions are
and and all that stuff. So this is
a better platform because we get to talk
to each other, and then
people get to hear it and and share
it and all that stuff. But at any
rate,
if if
instructors because there's a lot of instructors who
are probably on your side. Why is Edgar?
Why is Isaac? Why is guns for everyone
advertising it? They're gonna make more laws,
be passed because of the way they're doing
it. They're gonna amend this law, and it's
all gonna be guns for everyone's fault.
And and first off, everybody always needs somebody
to blame. So even if it's not our
fault, they're gonna blame us. Go go go
to Reddit really quick, and and you'll see
that people blame us for this law that
exists right now. In fact, some people try
calling it, the guns for everyone law.
And and
that is people just wanna blame other people
for for the stuff. But
if you are
if you're already acting as if a new
law existed so
if instructors are saying here, I don't want
this law to pass, so I'm not going
to do what Edgar is doing.
I'm just gonna tell students to take an
eight hour course,
so that the law doesn't change. Then for
me, it's just like the politicians kind of
already won because they're already having you act
ahead
instead of in in in the the current.
So you're already in fear of new laws.
So you're already acting as if a new
law already passed. So, like, there's instructors who
are already,
nope. I'm just gonna make, students take a
class all all over again, which for me
is
is, one, not legal, but the other side
of it is potentially disingenuous
depending on the instructor.
Because now it's just like you see another
way to make money instead of, like, granny
doesn't have an extra $300,
and now you're forcing her to spend $300
because you don't want a lot of past
in the future. It's like it's what is
that movie?
Future crimes.
I forget the name of that movie. Report.
Minority report.
So so we're if we're already acting as
if the law changed, then what's what's the
problem with guns for everyone
following the law? And they it potentially change.
So Go.
So I'm not necessarily coming at this from
a point of fear of another law. I'm
really not. I'll give you a real life,
example here in Larimer County
is Larimer
County created
a,
part of their you can check on their
website,
and I'm I'm hoping I get this right
as far as the the time frame for
each.
Though a
initial class is only good for one calendar
year, and a renewal class is only good
for six months.
So that's what Larimer County is saying. So,
example,
if somebody who took your class six years
ago gets your cert, then they bring it
to Larimer County, Larimer County is gonna kick
it back. And then that causes that
problem on the student end.
So it it can lead possibly
to some frustration on the student end.
Also some it's a if you go to
the Larimer County
sheriff's office website, if that's what you're trying
to find now.
If you
if they are
discouraged
because they're being told one thing from an
instructor and something else from the sheriff's office
themselves,
Again, those two entities aren't on the same
page.
So the person who's going to
get the backlash from that is the student
and student themselves,
and then they're gonna be discouraged from actually
following the process.
Whether you agree with the law, disagree with
the
law, agree with, you know,
open carry or
constitutional carry, that that doesn't matter in this
situation.
It is simply how can we get the
information out to the students
in the correct way
where the jurisdictions on which they live
are going to accept the paperwork that we
as instructors give to them and make it
less complicated on them. So that's kinda where
I'm coming from. That's why I say I
don't I don't agree
with having something be five, ten years
from
yesterday
because here in Larimer County, they've even put
a cap. Like I said, they put a
cap of one year for new, I believe
it is, and six months for renewals.
So that that's not a that's not a
a a cap on when you could take
the next class. So for the the people
listening,
that are in Colorado potentially,
The state law says that once you complete
the entire eight hours, once you get the
certificate,
once that happens, you have one calendar year
to go apply for a new applicant
for a new application, a new permit. And
if you're a renewal,
it is six months that your certificate is
good for. That is not a cap
on when you take the full eight hours.
It's from the day you you receive your
certificate,
you have one year to go apply.
That's what that cap is for.
And that and that's, that's state law. That's
not just Larimer County.
And so
to to your point, John, about it affecting
the student, we we do think about that
a lot. We and we occasionally run into
issues where,
you know, the
the county is not accepting
a certificate for one reason or another.
And
we we come at it from two directions.
One, let's get this problem solved right away
for the student. Mhmm. And it can happen
for a lot of reasons. Like, you know,
I'm sure this has happened to lots of
instructors at some point where
the date is wrong on the certificate. It
was dated a year prior or maybe even
a year in the future. You and nobody
picked you know, nobody caught that mistake
before the student took it to the sheriff,
and the sheriff's not gonna accept that because
the date's wrong.
And, you know, that's that's a problem that's
just an administrative error that needs to be
resolved immediately because it, again, it affects the
student.
Mhmm. But if the sheriff's department is not
following the law and the student is affected
by that,
that's not the instructor's fault. Right. That's the
sheriff's fault. And so if Yes.
If if the sheriff is rejecting let's just
say in Weld County,
is rejecting
a student certificate because the instructor is verified
in Larimer County and not in Weld County,
and the student says, hey. You screwed me.
No. I didn't. The sheriff is screwing you
right now,
and we need to get the sheriff to
comply with the law,
and not and not bend the situation
around these unlawful requirements.
We need to educate the sheriff, and if
if necessary, we need to take it beyond
that. So
I I think that's kind of, like,
where you're saying
we don't wanna do things that affect the
student,
and that's absolutely true. But in many of
these cases, it's the sheriff that's affecting the
student, not the the instructor.
So so let me ask you guys this,
and I see and I appreciate the highlighted
portion of the
of the statute here.
Are you taking it that whenever
the
completion
of your shoot is done is when your
time period for your certificate your certificate as
a student is then
even though they may have taken the classroom
portion five,
seven, eight years ago? Is that how you
you guys
are interpreting it? And again, it's an interpretation.
I'm not
I I I really truly appreciate the civil
conversation
and and the fact that we can disagree
and all still have the same intent.
I'm just curious where you guys are coming
from on that end.
So,
I'll let Edgar answer the
interpretation part, but I'll tell you what our
our what our practice is is that once
you complete
all of the requirements
under the new law, that's when you receive
your certificate and is dated for the day
that you complete all of the requirements.
Yeah. And and from the the other perspective
is from the legal perspective, it's
it's it's not just an interpretation.
It is what the law says at this
moment is we're not doing anything that is
illegal. That's
from the if we go back to the
the highlighted portion. Right? It says,
if I go back to the eighteen twelve
two zero three, for the people that are
not watching, this is alexisnexus.com/hottopics,
slash colorado. Eight that's the official source in
the state of Colorado. +1 812203,
subsection one,
h,
in h six,
it says a training certificate from a concealed
handgun training class obtained within
one year from the proceedings,
submittal of the application. So that's when you
get the certificate.
So we would not issue the certificate in
the until they've completed the entire eight hours.
And, again, we already read in in the
other portion,
but I'll I'll say it again for for
the people that are are just tuning in.
It it talks about getting a concealed handgun
training class must be held in person, blah
blah blah. And then the last sentence is
the eight hours of instruction in a course
do not need to be consecutive.
So if you took my class three years
ago, four hours,
and you join us at the range for
another four hours, that's a total of eight
hours. It wasn't consecutive,
but the certificate would not be issued until
you complete the entire eight hours.
And that's what we would fight. Now if
if we, took this to court, because I'm
sure,
they're because so my position is because there's
not enough instructors
that are fighting for people's rights,
sheriffs get to do whatever the fuck they
want. So until we have enough sheriffs I'm
sorry. Until we have enough instructors
who are fighting against this and kind of
jumping on board, say, yeah. We we want
to fight for rights.
We're probably gonna have more sheriffs who are
like, well, see, we have
16 instructors who just bend at our will,
and that that's a problem. So we will
have to fight sheriffs
on this. I'm sure we will.
And, we're ready for it. And I think
that's the
the
the the huge difference between our students
and and other stew and other people's students
is I our students never have to worry
about
whether or not we'll fight for them. I
get a long
I I I couldn't tell you how many
times just today.
I can show you in in the messages
that we get.
There's this one,
really odd. It's too bright. But this one
right here,
this is a
a message from a a student who says,
hey. I'm having issues with my sheriff,
and we're walking them through it. How to
how to deal with it and keep me
updated. The next step is we we send
an angry letter from the attorneys.
But, yeah, that that is the the position
that Guns for Everyone has taken is you
you don't need to do the eight hours
after July 1. You already you already did
four hours.
We're
we're and we're willing to fight it,
because that's that's what the law
says. That's what the law says. There's there's
no
there's no no confusing part on our end,
for that,
for that. So that is 100%
the the position, and that's 100% the way,
the way we're moving forward with that stuff.
We're getting a little bit from the competitions
too. A lot of people are like, what
do you mean your competition's qualified? Yeah. We're
five one c three. We've been holding competitions
since pre COVID.
We we have organized competitions, and and a
lot of people don't like that either. But
that's been the law
Right. Forever.
That's that's been in the law for forever.
That's nothing new. That that's not a new
thing. Obviously, we go ahead. Sorry. I I
cut you off. I apologize. No. You're good.
No. I sit on the board of directors
of a of a private gun club, and
I run the monthly defensive pistol as well.
And we decided that as a board that
we are not getting involved in that part
whatsoever because we just don't have a way
to
to regulate it to,
keep track of it on the administrative side.
So as a non for profit gun club,
we
decided as a board not to be involved
in that part
of the laws that's written and just
we have instructor members I teach out of
that club.
In fact,
and,
though from the the board volunteer side, we
decided just not to
be involved and,
you know,
guide people towards actual
certified
and verified
instructors.
Yeah.
So I wanna add something to the part
part of the,
the logic or or I guess you could
say the the justification for for reading the
law, Edgar, that that, if you wanna put
that back up there,
where it says, you know, when the certificate
is issued,
one year from when the certificate is issued.
Yep.
United States follows the philosophy of of,
I can't remember what it's called right now,
the opposite of positive law. Positive law states
or the positive law philosophy is, like, it's
only lawful because the law says it's lawful.
Whereas the way The United States functions is
the restrictions are written down, but if the
restriction does not exist, then it is a
lawful act. It's kinda like when you talk
about,
What would you say with the law? Duty
oh, say that again? What was it called?
Positive law,
versus natural law. There you go. Yeah. Positive
law theory.
In Colorado, there's no duty to inform a
law enforcement officer that you are carrying.
Why is that true? It's because it's not
addressed in the law. It's not that there's
a law that says you don't have to
tell a cop if you're carrying. It's that
the issue is not addressed in the law.
And because it's not addressed, then there is
no requirement to do it.
So that's where that
interpretation
of that comes in, where we say we
take what the law says, and we don't
add anything to it. We just take what
it says, black and white. And if it
doesn't say differently,
then the
then there is no restriction beyond what it
what it says there in the law. So
I hope that makes sense. I did a
really shitty job of explaining that.
I
I I can I can see
the points that you two are
standing on in regard to this section about
the eight hours and that's the eight hours?
And it does not, I will acquiesce, that
it does not state
when that eight hours
has to
start
or end. Though the end date, that end
date needs to be within the year. Mhmm.
I just think and this is where the
poking the bear part
on my perspective comes in, is that if
you guys are gonna go back three, five,
ten years for your start date,
that and and I would love to I
would love to,
watch
the
the and hopefully it doesn't get there. I'm
I'm not hoping it does. Hopefully, it doesn't
get to a a litigation
of
interpretation
that, as you said, Isaac, there is nothing
there in the law. And, Edgar, you've said
as well when the start of that course
actually is and what that means. I hope
it never gets there. I just think that's
where the poke and the bear on my
part comes that I believe that someone's gonna
look at this sooner or later. Yeah. And
they're just gonna
bring that proverbial hammer down. Yeah. And hopefully,
you guys come out on the on the
good end, not just for you, though for
all instructors and the students because that's why
we do it. We're not doing it. Yes.
I so you guys work for a nonprofit.
I work for a for profit. Seven Hills
Security is a for profit. I don't I
don't teach nonprofit. I do my volunteer time
for the defensive pistol shoot I run, but
the Seven Hills Security side is for profit.
I don't want my students wasting money either.
I don't want them coming in and spending
money to for me to pass on my
knowledge and experience
for them to get things kicked back.
So that's just where I'm coming from.
And I I really hope it works out
for all of us because if it works
out for all of us in the positive,
it that means better for the students. That
means better for the people that are coming
to us
for the information, the knowledge, the skills
that they are looking for from all of
us as
instructors.
Yeah. I I I hope it does happen.
I 100%
hope it happens because that's the only way
we'll get clarity. Right? I I I wish
instructors
and and and this is why I appreciate
you,
being here and and and actually having a
conversation with us,
because because we we we're very strong with
with our words when we talk about other
instructors, very, very strong
because a lot of instructors
won't even do this, what you're doing right
now.
But, also, most instructors, instead of
trying to to understand why we're doing what
we're doing, they will go off on a
signal chat, and they will talk shit on
the signal chat. And then they will go
tell their sheriff, hey. Edgar's doing this instead
of being on the side of freedom. Like,
we should be on the side of freedom.
We shouldn't be on the side of tyranny.
In fact, most a lot of us
are instructors because not only is it self
defense, but also the bat check crazy side.
Right? The
the seventeen seventy six side of of the
guns.
Now if if you're an instructor who loves
tyranny, then then by all means, go go
snitch on us. But I actually do want
litigation to happen.
I 100
this this happened to us when,
here in the state of Colorado and the
ATF was really hammering down on
privately made firearms.
The ATF
got ahold of our organization and and said,
hey. We we heard you that you guys
are are hosting events and competitions
where people who make guns privately,
quote, unquote, ghost ghost guns, three d print
their own guns, and they get to compete
with them.
We want to talk to you guys about
this. And we openly said, hey. ATF is
welcome
to come in. And people are like, what
do you mean the ATF is welcome? Yep.
Because either you're going to arrest me,
and we're gonna figure that shit out in
court, or you're gonna not do anything, and
then we can tell the whole world, hey.
Look. The ATF was here, and they didn't
do shit because they have nothing on us.
And that's what we want. We we want
sheriffs to understand they have nothing on us.
We are very open about this, and we're
very confident
to an almost arrogant,
almost. Almost.
I didn't like the fucking unison there.
See, you're getting it from both sides now.
Yeah. To an to an almost arrogant level
of or an arrogant level, we're so confident
in our understanding of the law
because we've been here.
We we are, like, 17 and o with
with against sheriffs.
And most of them are small, tiny fights.
Hey, sheriff. You're doing this wrong.
And not a single time
have we lost against the sheriffs. Not once.
Not not a single time. The other Go
ahead. I was gonna say the other part
of pay poking the bear because there's really
two avenues for poking the bear. One is
arguing with the sheriffs and then ending up
in a lawsuit, which
I don't see any way you would lose
this argument from our side in a lawsuit.
The other side is the legislative side where
the legislature says, let's close-up that hole now
that it's by been identified and change the
law. And
we
we don't really have a lot of sway
in that because we're just one small organization.
But
the problem with gun laws in this state
is that gun owners
are not paying attention and are not engaged.
And we have almost 2,000,000 gun owners in
this state.
And I'm sure you know because, I mean,
I wasn't I didn't see you, but I'm
sure that you've shown up,
to testify
at
the Capitol
against some of these laws. I haven't been
to all of them. I don't think anybody's
been to all of them. But when you
show up, you're looking around, and you're like,
this is it. This is all we could
get to show up today. We have 2,000,000
gun owners in the state. We can't get
400 people to show up to testify in
the legislative committee.
So part of the
poking the bear is to get gun owners
to pay attention,
that they have a responsibility
to stand up for their rights. And if
you rely on other people to do that
for you, you're gonna end up where we
are now, where we're this close to an
assault weapons ban.
We do have a licensing scheme in place
now for for, for assault weapons, and we
have these new restrictions and requirements. And there's
elements you know, we all we all appreciate
that people are getting out in training, but
there's elements of the class that we don't
think are responsible to teach that are required
now that we have to teach.
And
so
we want
we don't we're not afraid of poking the
bear,
but if gun owners are gonna sit on
the sidelines and complain
rather than get engaged,
then poking the bear is probably going to
end up costing
us more rights.
But
that's that's because the gun
gun community would rather sit down and and
wait for bad things to happen than to
be proactive and and to stop them from
happening in the first place. So,
a lot of instructors
did speak up against this law in the
first place, but there's only a handful of
instructors in the state compared to the total
population.
And we're not gonna stop this law if
if every instructor in the in the entire
state showed up. We're not gonna stop this.
We need
all of the people who carry a gun
to show up.
So
I understand the idea of poking the bear
and, like, let's not make things worse,
but I don't think that this is the
thing that makes it worse. I think the
thing that makes it worse is that gun
owners don't do anything
to stop it. Yeah. Yeah. To kinda piggyback
on that, it it's
it's people
on from our perspective anyways, and I think
Isaac and I are on the same page
with this.
It's when instructors are defending sheriffs
for whatever reason,
that is what's ultimately going to lead to
our to a demise.
Mostly because,
like, we're not fans of the word law
abiding.
I know
I know you're you used to be a
cop, and law abiding was was the thing.
Because law abiding gets to the point where
we're just
conceding.
Right? And I'm not saying go out, be
be fucking felons and murderers. Like, that's not
what I'm saying. What I what I'm saying
is you get to a point where, like,
where I'm a I'm a law abiding citizen.
I'm a law abiding citizen.
All that means at some point is that
any law you pass, I'm just gonna follow
100%,
never gonna push back on it because it
passed, and I'm just gonna become complacent.
And,
we we we can't get to this point
where we're not where we're not fighting back.
We can't get to the point where we're
not
poking the bear because we we have to
poke the bear. I I want to poke
the bear because that's the only way we
we know where we stand with the bear.
That that's the only way.
And this is,
I I appreciate Pink is being on,
to encourage us,
the the pair the the bear poking.
Mhmm. If you guys don't know who Rob
Pincus is, go go Google.
So I I don't
disagree with
some of the stuff you guys are saying.
When it comes to
I don't believe the fight is with the
sheriff
offices, departments per se. I believe the fight
is with the legislature.
We've done a good job during this discussion
not getting political. This would be the one
political thing. And when I teach classes, politics
are not allowed, period. I say it at
the beginning of every class I teach. I'm
not there for politics. I'm there for
firearms instruction,
period. And I take that very seriously
because you lose half your class one way
or the other if you if you go
down that rabbit trail.
Though when it comes to
when it comes to
the political side,
until that math in the state of Colorado
changes,
these laws aren't gonna change.
And I agree with you absolutely 100%
get involved,
be out
there, and and speak your mind,
testify.
But until those numbers change in the state
capital,
we're gonna have a real hard time,
changing anything,
if not impossible time. I mean, we all
saw the videos of whoever was playing Tetris
on their phone.
Not nothing was going to change. Nothing.
Well,
I
I you could be right.
There's no way to know until it happens.
You could be right. Right. But Just just
as you guys could be as well. Yeah.
But
I I need a fact check on this.
Maybe Edgar can fact check me real time
while we're doing this. But in 2013,
I believe Colorado had a Democratic governor, Democratic
house, and a Democratic senate.
Yeah. I believe that was true in 2013.
Correct.
The 2013
legislature
passed, and the governor signed the magazine
restriction law.
And a very small group of gun owners
who had no affiliation with any large group,
they just, on their own,
organized a recall effort against three legislators
and successfully
recalled two legislators.
And
what happened,
for seven years, there was no significant
threat, legally speaking, to our gun rights in
this state.
So
I don't think the math has to be
on our side. I think
active
people
need to be on our side.
And
what changed in 2021,
we had a mass shooting at, the grocery
store in Boulder,
and the legislature was ready and waiting for
this moment of opportunity
and also got zero resistance
from the gun community. I'm not talking about
RMGO. I'm sure they sent out a 100
emails a day about it.
But the actual gun community, the gun owning
community
didn't even know
that they repealed
or or, yeah, repealed the,
what's the word I'm looking for, Edgar?
Recalled?
No. No. No. In 2021,
I I can't believe I'm blanking on this.
They changed the law so that individual
cities, towns, and counties oh, preemption. They're here.
Preemption. Preemption. They they repealed preemption for concealed
carry in the state of Colorado, and I
I asked students for years about this, and
nobody even knew that it happened. Yeah.
So
we don't we might need the numbers to
change the direction
in the house and senate and in the
governor's seat, maybe,
but we are not gonna make anything happen
if we stay on the sidelines.
I agree with I agree with that part.
If if we just stay and do nothing,
and that's why I give instructors who are
out there
putting out good information,
and doing it
respectfully
and the way it should be done and
not just teaching a bunch of garbage,
that's, you know, that's
where the change can start to come from
is good instructors putting out good information,
getting a
a better educated public.
And in that, it will help build that
coalition
to help with
it it what it might not be a
numbers changes. You know, there's no way to
tell, Isaac. I agree with you there. But
get better educated people out there.
And there there is another there's a woman
here in Colorado. I've spoken with her a
few times.
I believe her company name is Lipstick Tactical.
She's trying to create a firearms,
instructor,
basically, board or, union.
And
I don't know where she is with that,
though they're all She gave she gave up
on that.
I've yeah. I I You think hurting cats
is hard.
Yeah. It is. It is because everyone the
the problem is as we all know, I
mean, look at what happened with this last
thing with all the with with all the
testimony is all the infighting. That stuff needs
to stop. That stuff needs to end. We
can disagree.
I you guys don't agree with some of
the stuff I've said, and I don't agree
with some of the stuff you've said. Doesn't
mean that we can't be civil about it.
Doesn't mean that we have to, you know,
call each other names and go down that
path because it just makes us all look
bad. That's kind of my intention. What I
what I wrote to Edgar,
when we were messaging back and forth
is simply
let's just stop the infighting.
I mean, that stuff is silly. It just
really isn't. It makes us look bad. It
makes the instructors look bad. It makes the
firearms industry look bad. And the people who
don't like firearms, it gives them the ammunition
to say, look. These guys can't even get
along. So why should we trust them with
firearms?
Yeah. Yeah. I I do wanna go back
just just a tad bit and and talk
about why we're fighting the sheriffs and why
it's important to fight the sheriffs.
Because the the legislature passed a a law,
and we we had our opportunity at at
the committee hearings and all that stuff to
to talk about,
or or fight it and and fight them
and send the emails. We had our time
with them.
Now when you go to the state law,
it says each chair shall verify instructors and
county who satisfies the requirement verification.
To become a verified instructor, an applicant must
hold a valid permit,
be a certified
be certified as a farm instructor by one
of the following entities that has,
that has instructors certified by,
a nationally recognized organization, Guns for Everyone National,
that customarily offers training, Guns for Everyone National.
And then three, an instructor verification issue pursuant
is valid for ten years. So that's it.
That that's all that we're required to have.
And then look at what Larimer County is
asking for. It's asking for a course,
copy of your course curriculum,
instructor certification of compliance with statutory instruction requirements,
copy of your firearms instructor training certificate. That
one's valid because that's that's what they asked
for. It's asking for your driver's license.
It's asking for payment, fuckers.
So of of the stuff that's here, the
only the only ones they should be asking
for is your concealed handgun permit
and then your certification
from an organization like Guns for Everyone National,
and payment, I guess. Everything else is not
required there. Who's requiring that? The sheriff is.
That is illegal for the sheriff to to
require. That's why the fight is now with
the sheriff
because they're they're adding
on top of,
on top of what they already,
is outlined
in the in the law. Yeah. So so
I had this fight with Pueblo County, and
I, you know, I I submitted my application
without the course curriculum. And they
they called me, and they're like, where where
is this? This is required. And I said,
no. It's not. Tell me in the law
where it's required. And then they came back
a couple days later, and they're like, you're
you're right. It's not required. Approved. And they
changed their website to say they want you
to submit it, but it is not required.
And that's the kind of conversation
that we're really looking for from every sheriff's
department, but, unfortunately,
it's not usually the way it goes. Right.
But
what's to stop the sheriff from just saying,
I don't like your course curriculum. Boom. You're
not verified. Now you can't do what you
plan to do. You can't teach in this
county because I don't agree
with your, course curriculum.
No. I I see that perspective, and I
I can't speak for the sheriff's office, and
I won't.
Though
that may be on their end and and
you may want to I know you had
the Weld County sheriff. You had discussion with
him a little while ago.
I would encourage you guys to have discussions
with all of them to see what where
the different
points of views are. I'd be very surprised
if,
they wouldn't come on and talk with you
regardless of the 64 counties that we have
here in Colorado.
That may be just simply, hey. What are
you teaching?
Where you know, what I did for that
is I copied and pasted.
I'm an NRA instructor.
I copied and pasted the NRA
outline, said here you go, this is what
I teach. You know, add the add the
new law stuff in there, on top of
the NRA stuff.
That's it. And they
they approved
it. So,
you know, is it in the law as
it's written? No. It's not. Could it be
a checks and balance? And is that possibly
why they're doing it? Possibly.
But again, I'm not going to try to
speak for a sheriff's
office or department. Yeah. We shouldn't try. The
but the point is is is that it's
it's a requirement beyond what the law states,
and,
they don't have the authority
to do that.
You know, if if they all put on
their preferred, we would like you to do
this. I bet you most instructors would do
it. I wouldn't do it, but I bet
you most would,
and they'd be accomplishing really the same thing.
They're they're they're staking
or they're claiming an authority that doesn't belong
to them when it comes to requesting that
or demanding that stuff.
And we can't have law enforcement writing their
own laws like that.
No. I mean a bad recipe.
I I agree there. Yeah. And one of
the things that that I wrote to Edgar
is I didn't agree with every law that
I enforce when I was in law enforcement.
Though I fully agree with you, Isaac.
Law enforcement is not the one who writes
the laws, period. Decently enforce it. That's it.
That's what they do. That's your job. Stay
in your wheelhouse
type of thing.
I wanna go back kinda to what you
said about politics in the class and something
that, Pink has put in the chat.
I don't talk politics in class when it
comes to parties,
because that's a waste of time. But
the discussion that I have in class when
it comes to politics
is
if you don't like the way the gun
laws are going,
then
you need to do something about it.
If you just complain
without doing anything,
I have no time to listen to you
complain.
Gun owners are
very disengaged
in this state, and
that's
you know, I'm gonna have that discussion in
the class, and I don't know what your
party is in the class, and I don't
care what your party is. If you claim
to care about gun rights,
or your gun rights,
then then I'm challenging you to to actually
do something or just be quiet. Don't don't
talk about it if you're not gonna do
anything about it.
No. I agree I agree with that. It
it really is the be be involved.
Mhmm. Be involved
to your ability
your ability, and everybody has their own ability.
And,
sorry. I'm reading and going back. Yeah. I
know.
Edgar is, like, triggering my ADD.
But be involved to the best of your
ability. As you said, you didn't see a
lot of people down to State house.
There there are many reasons why people didn't
go down.
But be involved to the best of your
ability to what your ability is. On my
end, like I said, I I teach on
the private side. I volunteer,
for,
one of the things that we did as
verified instructors for our gun club members
is we put on, I believe it was
a three hour symposium
of the new gun laws from the past
ten years to club members.
We filled the room and we had to
turn people away.
And, you know, we're doing what we can
on on our end in a very small
way on our end, and we're trying to
get that information out there and getting the
information out there as much as we possibly
can. It much like what you guys are
doing combined with this type of conversation where
we have people
involved, and I'll read that one in a
second.
We will, I mean, that's that just furthers
what we are trying to do, I believe,
as not only in instructors,
but people who actually care about the second
amendment and people who actually want to pass
on legitimate good information. And, Edgar, if you
could put that one back up, I'll stop
talking and read that one now.
Yeah. Pincus is is and this would be
more of a question,
I I think, for you, John, than than
it would. But I think it's just a
general question.
I ought to just send a link to
to Pincus and and have him jump on
really quick.
We don't have enough bald people in here
already.
Yeah.
So this one, it implies that you would
be okay. For those of you guys,
only listening and not watching,
Pincus asked the question, why are you okay
with them asking for info that isn't required?
And then a follow-up to that is
it implies that you would be okay with
them rejecting an instructor
application based on the curriculum.
Wouldn't that be the sheriff,
in quotations writing the law?
I'll I'll give you the frank blunt answer
answer. I never thought of that as a
big deal. I really didn't. I didn't think
of it as a big deal. If you
wanna see my curriculum, my curriculum's open to
the public. Here you go.
I didn't see it as a big deal
as it being
not in the law.
I wanna pass on information.
So if
if anyone wants to know what I teach,
I'll send you a copy what I teach,
here you go. The
the the PowerPoint slide,
that's not where you get information from me.
You get information from me on the range.
I show you
what I say in networking. I do a
lot of networking. I'm the one gun guy
up here in color Northern Colorado who goes
out to civilian networking events. And what I
say out there is anyone can pull the
trigger, I can teach you how to shoot.
So where you're gonna gain
knowledge from me is on the range where
I'm watching you and you tie together everything
and you put it in words yourself, not
me telling you how your shot grouping is
different, how you feel differently because I'm not
an instructor that says, oh, you're shooting better.
I spend the time with each student and
I say, okay. I want you to tell
me what was different from the beginning of
the class to the end of the class
in your words So in the future, you
can replicate it. So
that's my curriculum.
I wanna I wanna address this purely from
a practical point of view, not from a
philosophical point of view. Because I had this
exact conversation with the Pueblo County sheriff when
they said, where's your curriculum? And I said,
I'm not gonna send it, and here's why.
And the clerk, very nice lady. I've talked
to her several times before. She said,
okay. I get what you're saying, but,
you know, it would just be easier if
you sent this.
And it would be easier in the moment
to go ahead and send it.
But now I've opened the door to 64
different sheriffs calling me
and saying, this is the way we do
it,
and I just need you to do it
my way. And now I've got 64 different
requirements possibly.
And that is not easier. That that's not
a that's not a quick solution
when we open the door to let the
sheriff's decide they're gonna have this administrative
requirement or that, you know, training requirement.
And you have Larimer County, and they take
your curriculum, and they're like, yep. You're good
to go. And then Garfield County calls you
one day and says, hey. I I gotta
look at your curriculum. I don't accept that.
And your student is not gonna get a
a permit in my state because your curriculum
doesn't meet my standards.
I I agree I agree with that. I
do.
The issue that I that I have with
instructors just complying,
it's it's it's one of those things that
and we talk about this. We bitch about
this when we're fighting the capital.
When we're at the capital fighting, we we
say
every single time we say, oh, it it's
it's death by a thousand paper cuts. They
they're doing it very slowly. So when instructors
simply comply,
that is exactly what they're doing. They're helping
the legislation.
The legislators at at the Capitol kill the
two a
little by little by complying
for every little thing. I I get what
you're talking about. Like, I understand in the
moment, you're like, oh, it's not that big
of a deal. It's not even publicized. It's
just for them to to look at it
internally, but it's not a requirement,
And I will push back as much as
possible.
Yeah. We we get emails all the time,
not so much anymore, but definitely at the
beginning,
when we went from not being a a
well known organization
to very quickly
40,000 students, 50,000. We're over a 100,000 students
now.
And sheriffs would call up and be like,
hey. I think you should add this to
your certificate. You should do this to your
certificate. It'd be better for us if you
do this for for your certificate. I was
like, I'm not I'm not gonna do that
until you tell me where in the law
it says that I'm not gonna do that.
I can't do that.
So it it's it's
sometimes being the nice guy in the room
is what what kills the the second amendment.
I absolutely see both of your points, and
I would 100%
agree for a verified instructor to have to
comply to 64 different jurisdictions
within the state
is
not something that is realistic.
With that, I think that's why the reciprocity
from county to county with the,
the email that I mentioned earlier in this
conversation where Larimer County put out to the
verified instructors
right on your cert,
Larimer verified instructor.
So something So let me just add to
that. El Paso County
wanted us to include
the verified instructor number.
So now you have two different requirements on
these two front range counties.
So which one are you gonna do? Now
if if if El Paso County requires it
to have the instructor number, you did what
Larimer County said, and then somebody moves, you
know, in that one year between the time
they got the certificate and the time they
apply, moves down to El Paso County. That
certificate should be valid, but El Paso County
is not gonna accept it. And now that
affects the student because now they gotta go
track you down and tell you, hey. El
Paso County is not accepting this.
See and that's and
that would have been my second point of
what I was saying in regard to
when legislation is put out
where there aren't it's not spelled out,
now you come up with these different situations
and different scenarios,
64 different counties doing things 64 different ways.
We need, as instructors,
the guideline,
period. The guideline.
That's kinda my point is give us one
way to do it, show us what you
want. If you're gonna create this law, which
they've already done, show us show us what
you want. Tell us what you want.
But that's what happens when you have people
who are not familiar with the industry
writing laws about firearms.
I'll I'll take this one step further. As
I mentioned earlier, I trained security. I'm a
Denver guard card instructor. The Denver guard card
eight hour class instruction is different criteria than
the eight hour class that we have, and
I mess that up during a Facebook post
once because, the Denver guard card is five
hours classroom, three hours,
on the range. And I incorporated that into
what we're talking about the civilian side. And
it was a 100% my mistake because I
have so many laws of the 13 different
jurisdictions running through my head
that all have 13 different rules for security
licensing
on top of
this now new law.
So get us get us on the same
page people, please. You know? Well, yeah. I
mean, I think you figure that out. I
think you identified the point, which is that
the laws are being written by retards
who don't understand the context or the the
the information.
They're just writing a law, and they have
no possible way that they could think through
this stuff.
This so but the law is written the
way the law is written, and that is
our guideline. We don't need guideline from the
sheriff. We have the guideline. The guideline sucks.
Correct. But we're not gonna do anything more
for the guideline. We well,
like,
this would make it easier.
No. That that's their job. That that's the
that's the legislature's
job is to write laws that can be
complied with and make sense or not write
laws at all, just quit their jobs and
stop being legislators,
which is what I would prefer.
But asking
for clarification
from the sheriff
is the wrong way to go because the
sheriff
doesn't have any authority.
The sheriff is required to follow what the
law says.
And so the way that we get to
the point where all the sheriffs are on
the same page is we stop asking the
sheriffs to answer these questions,
and we inform them
that if they're not gonna follow what the
law says, then they're gonna have a problem
with us,
and we're going to
fight them
legally
to get them to comply with the guideline
or the law. So,
because the sheriff's just kinda have this opinion
of, like, well, this is the way I
do it, and fuck that. That is not
the way it goes. Yeah. You do it
the way the law says. I don't get
to show up to court and say, hey,
judge. This is the way I do it.
You know? Like, I know it's against the
law to do this, but this is the
way I do it. That's not how it
works.
Yeah. And and and it it it can't
it can't be that way. It it is
it is detrimental
to to the second amendment. It's detrimental just
freedom in general.
Because because I promise you, if Larimer County
had a Democratic,
sheriff,
holy shit.
If if Larimer County had a a a
Democrat sheriff,
everybody
that's
second amendment friendly
would be on that doorstep,
wanting their head. But because he has an
arm behind it, oh, it's not that big
of a deal. It it's alright. He's our
buddy. He's our he's our friend.
We're gonna play nice.
And we we we talked about this in
a podcast,
previously is that we we become so
our interest in the second amendment has become
financial,
not freedom based.
It's awesome to make money because I have
to pay rent and pay the pay the
phone bill and feed the kids and and
and all that stuff. Right? That that's super
awesome. But
at some point in the society, we put
money here way up top and then freedom
somewhere in in the fourth. So, like, if
freedom goes away, it's not that big of
a deal.
But going back to what Isaac says, yeah,
like, right now,
it's not that big of a deal. But
in the long run, you're gonna wish you
had some freedom. You're gonna wish we had
the second amendment.
And
from from our perspective is the the more
we allow the sheriffs to do whatever they
want
just because it is easier, the the less
freedom we're going to have.
I wish every sheriff
stood at the committee hearings and said, you
know what? Go ahead. Pass pass this law.
We're not going to enforce it.
Pass this law. Go ahead.
Have at it. High five. We're we're just
not gonna do this.
Even if it was just in solidarity,
even if it's just blowing smoke up our
asses, because that's usually what they do. But
none of them. In fact, with the assault
weapons ban that they just passed, they said,
no. We're going to enforce it.
We we don't like it, but we're going
to enforce it.
And and I understand that that's that's not
the way we we win 100%. I understand
that that's controversial
on on on its own,
to have a sheriff not enforce it, but,
like, I wish they were on our side.
The the law says they can't be more
restrictive, but the law doesn't say they can't
be more lenient.
So it doesn't prohibit them from being more
lenient. It just simply says they cannot add
restrictions beyond what's already in part two.
Yeah. Actually,
the law was changed to specifically spell out
that they cannot be more lenient. But if
they were pro freedom sheriffs and they did
tell the legislature
that they weren't going to enforce the law,
I'd I'd fill up their campaign donation.
Like,
I would I would support that. These pro
freedom sheriffs get away with saying I'm pro
freedom and then turn around and,
you know, act differently. And I don't mean,
like, Weld County sheriff, sheriff Reams doesn't charge
for the permit.
That's pro freedom.
You know, within within the ability
that he has to take away the financial
barrier to carrying a gun, he does it,
and that's good for
him. But,
if he's requiring that you get take a
class from a verified instructor within his county,
then he's not pro freedom.
So we need we need to hold them
to their word, especially the Republican,
supposedly pro freedom ones, and not let any
of this stuff slide,
and hold them accountable
for for these extra restrictions.
While going back to, something that one of
you I can't remember who made the made
the statement, which is true.
The sheriff's offices and departments are not
the lawmakers.
So either enforcing
a law or not enforcing a law that
is on the books is the same thing.
That makes them the de facto law writer,
and that's not the job of law enforcement.
As I said, there were there were laws
many times that I did not want to
enforce, but it was my job to do
so.
There there are sheriffs that may or may
not agree with the laws on the books,
and to them it shouldn't matter.
That's the law on the book, and you
enforce it. And then
behind the scenes or other organizations
such as yourself
or other
entities that do fight this stuff, it's in
their hands.
And then until that law changes. Yeah. Yeah.
I I totally agree
from a practical point of view. The I
think the reason why we bring this up
is because the sheriffs have, like, sheriff Roybal
and sheriff Elder. And to some extent, I
think some of the other sheriffs like sheriff
Reams
talk about how they're not going to enforce
certain laws within their county. With the magazine
law,
back in 2013 when it was passed, almost
all the sheriff said, we're not going to
enforce that law.
And so they get away with saying it,
and then the citizen believes that it's true,
and then they turn around and then create
new
restrictions,
on on the laws that are already on
the book. So if you're gonna go around
saying that we're not gonna enforce this law,
then then
why are you enforcing any of these anti
freedom laws?
So don't say it if you're not gonna
do it. Don't don't go around running on
this platform of being pro freedom if you're
not going to actually
give the middle finger to the legislature and
stand up for your citizens and say, this
is not happening in my county. I agree.
I agree. I wanna clear up something really
quick, that Isaac and I interacted with. The
sheriff's
cannot be,
they can't be more restrictive.
They can be more lenient.
Local governments, when creating new gun laws, cannot
Yeah. Okay. You got me. I should have
known better than to go head to head
with you.
So
the jurors yeah. Cities, counties, municipalities,
when they're writing gun laws, they cannot be
more lenient than what the law already has.
It's just more restrictive. Yeah. The sheriffs themselves,
because they don't write laws when issuing permits,
they're not
bounded by being they they don't have to
be,
they can be, I'm sorry, they can be
more lenient. There's nothing in here that says
they cannot be more lenient. In fact,
under the old laws, a lot of sharers
would accept
Hunter safety. Hunter safety permits, which was not
part of the law.
In fact, didn't even meet the the legal
requirements under the old law, and a lot
of shares like, I don't care. The hunter
safety is good enough for us. That was
them being more lenient.
So they can't be more lenient. They cannot
be more restricted. But, anyway, sorry. I I
cut you off, John.
No. No. That's fine. It's it's hard not
to in this platform. Mhmm. So Yeah.
Is there anything else that you would like
to get off your chest?
Isaac
Isaac and I will still continue having a
conversation about other things, and you're welcome to
join us. But I I told you thirty
minutes, and I knew that was being ambitious.
Thirty minutes. We've taken an hour of your
time. I think this has been a good
conversation. The podcast is not ending for those
of you guys listening.
Isaac and I still have shit to talk
about. Like, the four rules suck.
So the rules absolutely suck. But if if
there's anything else, John, that that you wanted
go.
No. I I really appreciate your time. I
appreciate this conversation.
I do appreciate the adult, which seems lacking
in today's world where people can disagree about
things and still have an overall same understanding.
The fact that you guys are willing to
have me on with someone who says, hey.
Don't agree with how you're doing this.
And your response was perfect. Hey. At least
you have the gumption. I'll change your word
to,
to say that,
you don't agree as others
don't.
So I I truly appreciate your time. Feel
free. I'll do this again with you guys
whenever you want.
I I think that constructive
conversation
can only promote better
understanding
and and a better
firearms
community here in Colorado or wherever people may
be listening to this from.
Yeah. There that's this this thing called respectful
irreverence.
Pincus, who has been chiming in, throughout the
podcast,
a mentor
of mine and somebody who I appreciate being
in my life, although he can he can
rattle my my my feathers a little bit
sometimes. Or break your teeth. Break my teeth.
He did break one of my teeth. Like,
literally, it was fucking I kept it. He's
like, oh, fix it. I was like, nah.
That shit's fucking there forever to remind you
that you broke my tooth. We were teaching
in Mexico, and that's
where he broke it. In my own fucking
country, he's like, fuck you Mexican, and he
fucking broke my tooth.
But this idea of respectfully reverence is this.
I don't have to agree with you to
respect
where you're at in in the platform or
respect,
what we wanna do at the end of
the day, whether we agree or don't, is
understand where we're coming from. Because if I
understand where you're coming from, that gets us
a step closer to to really having
true dialogue and and change and and challenge
my information, challenge your information.
We do this with students too. At at
the end of every class, we have a
debrief,
and the students have to provide feedback with
the class right then and there. So let's
talk about our differences. Let's let's talk about,
what what you like, what you didn't like,
and and let's talk let's hold each other
accountable at the end of the day. Let
let's hold each other accountable. And I always
appreciate and and I meant to at least
you had the balls
to reach out to me directly instead
of going on that signal chat and and
saying it, you know, behind our back because
that's not constructive in any way, shape, or
form.
And and this proves to the humans that
humans can disagree
and and and still like each other and
still work with each other and and and
still have a a a level of respect
for each other.
So that that's why this is always important
for sure. Yeah. And I I wanna echo
that, everything he said, and, also,
not only thank you for your time, but
thank you for staying longer.
If we had stopped at thirty minutes, we
would have been right in the middle of
the conversation.
And I really appreciate you coming on, and
I'm looking forward to, more stuff in the
future. You're gonna hear from us soon,
about something else that we're hoping to get
some instructors on the front range on board
with and has nothing to do with any
of this
and shouldn't be controversial in any way.
But we're looking to organize some instructors to
start exploring
better mental health training in the classroom.
So
you'll you'll hear from us soon about that.
Well, that it's,
yeah, that's that's funny. I just I'm gonna
be starting up something with a neurodivergent
therapist in Boulder.
We we have our second meeting tomorrow, so
we definitely need to
talk offline about that stuff. Awesome. Well, I
look forward to future communications with you guys.
Let's do this again. I think it's been
fantastic. And,
Rob Pincus, thank you for your,
repeated input as we've gone through this.
Yeah. I appreciate it. Remember, the podcast is
not done. I'm gonna very awkwardly
kick him
out.
Have a good night. Thank you, John. I
appreciate it being here. Thank you, gentlemen. Have
a great night. You too. Alright.
That was good. That was good stuff. Alright.
He's gone. We could talk shit now.
So,
yeah, that was good. That that was that
was good. Obviously, we we we got to
a point where,
we probably still don't agree 100%, but it
it's always good to have the conversation. And
we invite any other instructor who who's kind
of in that that position,
to to talk about it.
I I do wanna talk about your board.
I know we've talked about it before, but
Yeah. It's there. Yeah. Actually,
I wanna kinda share a video
Oh, okay. That,
I don't I don't know how it if
it directly relates to to what's on the
board, but because I don't know, like,
how to how to relate the specific rules
to the sequence of events that happen in
this video.
But it is a firearm safety
video, and it is a an accident with
a firearm. And it's not graphic in any
way,
but it demonstrates
what what we mean when we say,
keep in mind that you're in control of
a firearm, and that it could hurt you
or kill you or someone else if used
negligently or or maliciously.
So I think I'm sharing my screen.
Am I sharing my screen? Yep. Okay.
Am I on the DB?
So we have this woman shooting a large
revolver, probably a larger caliber, probably thirty eight
three fifty seven at least. And
she is I like how you call the
38 a larger caliber. Well, I mean, not
a 22.
You know?
So,
let's just watch what happens here. Bang.
It's beautiful, really, in its simplicity.
So She just wanna make sure it worked.
Yeah.
So I don't it's it's not high enough
resolution for me that to know this for
sure, but I suspect
that she thought she was pulling the trigger
and nothing was happening
on the gun. And she was trying to
figure out what was wrong
by turning the gun into a position where
she could see the trigger
and then function check the firearm by fully
pressing the trigger
and returning back to her,
okay. Now we're ready to shoot. It works.
But this this happened. This is one of
the things that I I I posted.
I I forget who it was.
It was
about,
in in a competition.
And I I reshared the video, and a
couple
people shared it. So I reshared it, put
it to the stories,
and it was a a dude doing a
competition. He had a hole in his leg.
Oh, this has been going around in the
last couple days. Yeah. Did you see it?
Yeah. Yeah. So it was this idea of,
like, the that's it's stupid
to press the trigger after you've already verified
that it's empty. Verifying
if a gun is loaded by pressing the
trigger is super dumb.
Well, so that that's a USPCA
requirement.
Right?
The as far as I understand, and correct
me if I'm wrong, anybody in the chat
can correct me if I'm wrong,
but the the,
protocol
for verifying that the gun is unloaded is
to, in front of the RSO,
drop the mag, lock the gun open,
or rack the slide,
point the gun downrange, and pull the trigger
Press the trigger. And then reholster the gun.
Yeah. And I think that this came from
because I'm not real I'm not real studied
on competition, but from my understanding, this came
from the fact that if you if you
had a firearm and you're walking around in
the safe area
with a cocked firearm,
how does anybody know that that gun's not
about to go off by itself? Correct. Because
the gun's not allowed to be out of
the holster as far as I understand.
But
a cocked gun is a dangerous gun. So
in order for us to to make sure
it's not cocked, you're gonna have to go
ahead and just point the trigger or point
the gun downrange and and pull the trigger.
What was the understanding? No. That that's that
that's 100%
is is back when we had hammer guns,
primarily.
The only way people would
believed
that there was only one way to know
and that's if the the hammer was down.
They disregarded that double action is is a
thing.
And
but
for you, how how would how else could
we know?
You could look. You could lock the gun
open. You could look into the chamber, look
into the magazine well, show it to the
RSO,
close the gun if you want to, and
put it back in the holster.
Yeah. I mean, once two humans have verified
that the gun is is empty, I mean,
that's that should be enough. That should be
the rule. Right? Like, everybody
verifies that the gun is up. But we
do this at the end of our classes
where,
we have,
them line up, shoulder,
drop the mag, lock it open.
Two people have to verify. And then once
that's done, it remains locked open, and then
you go back to the holster with the,
action open. Mhmm. Why? Because now nobody has
that question if you have
the loaded gun or not the loaded gun
and and all that stuff. So did you
read the guy's
explanation
about what happened in that video? My fucking
brain
went like, because it's, like, seven fucking pages
worth of explanation.
Yeah. So for those who don't know, I'll
give the short version of what happened in
this competition. Can I take this video now?
Yeah. Yeah. I might put it back up
in a minute, but, yeah, I can take
it down.
This guy was shooting competition.
He
loaded his gun,
put it in his holster,
and
after he loaded the gun and put it
in his holster to start the stage, somebody
yelled, hey. There's somebody downrange.
At which point, the RSO told the guy
to take, to unload and show clear
while somebody's downrange. Now this guy explained that
he's new to
competition shooting,
and he was already a little
hyped up, already a little bit nervous. Yeah.
And finding out that there is somebody downrange
and being told to unload and show clear
apparently was too much
information for him in the moment.
And he explained that stressed out, he
he I don't I don't remember the sequence
of events that he thinks happened,
but when he went to pull the trigger
to show clear,
it was pointed at his leg when he
did it. And somehow, he,
still had a round in the gun and
shot himself.
So
from a safety point of view,
not from a protocol point of view, but
from a safety point of view,
what is the
what what what was probably the best course
of action in that moment when there's somebody
downrange and there's a person about to start
the stage with a holstered loaded handgun?
Keep the gun in the holster. Keep the
gun in the fucking holster.
Like, if if Tell him. Somebody's if if
somebody's downrange, there should not be any administrative
touching of the like, you shouldn't be dusting
it off. Yeah. But but mistakes happen. The
world is a is a beautiful complex place,
and mistakes happen. Correct. And it's not the
first time somebody's been downrange when a gun
somebody's preparing to start the the the,
the stage.
So
the gun is in the holster.
If we're worried about somebody getting shot, then
the best thing to do would be not
touch
the gun.
The gun's not going to go off by
itself unless it's a p three,
three twenty,
and it's already pointed down when it's in
the holster.
So here's where a rule
superseded the concept
of safety, and there we go. We have
tied
to Yeah. There we go.
The rule superseded the concept
in that moment.
It's not about how do we handle this
situation in the safest way possible. It's what
is the protocol to unload the firearm
Yeah. Which was the wrong thing to do
in that moment.
Because even if he hadn't shot himself, it
would still have been the wrong thing to
do in that moment.
100%.
Your your
your policy, your your rules,
because this dude was thinking about, like, I
don't wanna be dequeued if I don't listen
to to the RSO.
Mhmm. But, like, the RSO was wrong,
but the RSO was following
the the game rules,
which were not to be I'm I'm sure
USPSA, to their credit, probably doesn't say if
there's people down rage. Fuck it. Just clear
the gun. Make sure everything's clear. Yeah. And
I wouldn't know. I I've not read the
the safety protocols,
but we do know what the safety protocol
is to unload the firearm
while you're on the stage. Correct.
So
and that's why we don't teach
rules
first. We don't teach rules
as how safety works. Correct. Rules are important,
but you need to understand first and foremost
how to manage safety in a dynamic,
dangerous environment, where if if there's a firearm,
there is the potential that that firearm could
harm somebody.
So
USP USPSA
rules
I probably been saying it wrong.
USPS. Specify what should happen, but could you
tell us what should happen,
in that situation? So because that's where I
don't know. I just don't know
what what USPSA
rules are in that context.
Yeah. Automated approaches to safety.
The only available response to these guys is
unload and show clear.
So
the concept of safety is is what is
the safest thing to do given the,
expected result in this in this situation? How
do we balance the expected benefit with the
known,
or perceived risks? So not getting shot would
be the expected benefit. If we start handling
a gun when somebody is downrange,
that is unnecessarily
dangerous
in this particular concept.
Yeah, you have to actually think about safety.
I think there's this there's this problem that
happens with guns, especially when it comes to
instructors or people who think in that teaching
mindset,
is that
people are too retarded to think and shouldn't
be given the option to think. And that
that that's why we have to just give
them four rules and tell them, like, you
follow these rules a 100% of the time
no matter what, and that takes all the
thinking out of it.
Yeah. But the the the problem is now
you enter the complexity of the brain. Right?
Because the the
the reason
people tend to break a lot of these
rules is because the brain cannot comprehend that
you said
always treat it as if it were loaded,
and then you proceeded to show it unloaded.
And then directly after that, press the trigger,
which would violate that rule that you just
said you were going to follow. Because if
I were to treat this gun as if
we're out loaded, I'm not gonna fucking press
the trigger when there is nothing to shoot
at. There's there's there's no
there's no target to shoot at. And we
see this all the time. We see people
pressing the trigger even on Glocks,
even on Stryker Fire Firearms. We see them
pressing the trigger just to make sure nothing's
there.
Just to make sure the spring isn't whatever.
Just to make sure it relaxes. Whatever the
bullshit excuse is. So now you enter the
this reality of the brain is going to
reject your words because your actions
are not consistent with what it was. So
in the long run, when you're doing the
unconscious stuff,
the system one stuff, that's when you enter
into this, like, the the brain is like,
you don't mean those words. Mhmm. Because your
actions are always and I think this is
where a lot of people get in trouble.
Right? Because the the default is they should
have just been following the rules. Mhmm. Well,
no. That's that's we gotta get away from
that because that's we can't follow those rules.
You gotta be responsible.
That that's the mindset is, first and foremost,
you have to be responsible. Going back to
the discussion about the law, we're not trying
to make law abiding citizens out of these
students. We're trying to make responsible gun owners
out of these citizens. Correct. So the responsible
thing to do
when a a gun is already holstered and
there is somebody downrange is to not touch
your gun.
Don't increase the risk by doing something that's
not necessary in the moment.
So Joseph says, the rule says someone, anyone,
yell stop,
shooter doesn't move. That makes sense to me.
So this this sounds like the breakdown
started with the RSO
going to the wrong safety protocol
because,
they they I guess they figured an unloaded
gun
makes it safer now for that person to
be downrange.
Yeah.
Yeah. It's it's it's this this weird,
mentality, and and people follow that stuff almost
like a cult.
I don't know if you've had this in
in class when when you,
talk about this this subject and people are
like, well, I've had the rules, just the
the rules that we follow and and the
ones that that we we teach.
And then people are like, you're missing stuff
on there. And then that gives the opportunity
to talk about why, like, we're not missing
anything.
And in fact, these are complete and why
they're complete.
And then some people are like, well, but
that's not what if I can and Yeah.
They enter this well. The one I get
most often is,
when they say it's not complete is,
always treat every gun as if it's loaded.
So, a, it's not missing because
you have rule number three, the big picture
rule,
always or not always. Keep in mind that
you're in control of a firearm, and they
could hurt or kill someone if used negligently
or maliciously. So it's covered there. Correct. But,
also, let's just take a second to talk
about how
always
treat every firearm as if it's loaded doesn't
make any sense.
Yeah. Give me give me one example.
Okay. Say that again. I was I was
Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's the only reason I'm
sorry. Always treat every firearm as if it's
loaded.
Okay.
How how does that like, give me a
circumstance where that absolutely makes zero sense.
Glock's cleaning guns. Cleaning your gun,
and you have a Glock.
And so for those of you who don't
know, in order to take the gun apart
on the Glock, you need to make sure
the trigger is not engaged.
And so you're gonna make sure it's unloaded,
which means you're going to rack the slide,
which will engage the trigger. So the only
way to disassemble the gun at that point
is to press the trigger before you start
the takedown sequence on the gun.
So if you were treating it as if
you were it were loaded, you're not gonna
pull the trigger on the gun in your
basement, your living room, your bedroom, wherever you're
cleaning that firearm.
Yeah.
So some people have said, well, what if
you just changed it to always know the
condition of your firearm?
Yeah. I mean, you're entering into this realm
of
the the absolutes. Right? Like, always know the
condition of your firearm.
You can't always know the condition of the
firearm. That's
it's a mechanical device. It it is prone
to failure at some point in its life.
There could be a circumstance where you have
to take control of a firearm, and there's
no way that you're gonna know the condition
of that firearm when you take control of
it. Now Correct. You might have an opportunity
to discover the condition of the firearm,
but that might not be the best thing
to do in that moment.
Correct.
Yeah. I think that's that's the issue is
in large is is this idea of always
and never and and the absoluteness of these
these laws.
The I'm sorry. Not the laws, but but
the rules
is this idea that I can always do
something when we we know damn well you
can't always,
do something. Yeah.
Like, we must avoid absolutes as much as
we possibly can. Mhmm.
And these rules don't allow. In fact, they've
more prayed that they don't say always point
in a safe direction anymore. They've changed that
to say, if you're not willing to kill
it or destroy it, your muzzle should not
be pointing in that direction. And that has
its flaws because, I mean, we we see
mass shootings and and people defending humans out
in public, and that is incredibly dangerous. But
that's going back to the concept of safety
is it's worth it at that point. Mhmm.
It is worth it to be
riskier than usual. Yeah.
Well, there's plenty of things in my office
where I handle I do most of my,
you know, gun handling at home in this
room, and there's plenty of things in here
that individually by themselves,
it would be okay if I broke it.
But there's nothing in here that would be
okay if I shot it,
if I destroyed it with a bullet, because
there's nothing in here that's gonna stop that
round
at that one thing.
You know? So, oh, yeah. I pointed it
at my desk because it's okay if I
put a hole in my desk. Yeah. Correct.
But what happens past the desk?
So
this idea of, like, well, you know, there's
things in here. It's okay. I mean, it
wouldn't be the greatest thing in the world,
but it's okay. It's like, no. Not really.
If you're in a residential
home, no. It's not okay for a bullet
to go in any direction. Explain that
to
your
wife.
Explain that to your husband. Explain that to
your kids. Like, no. This is okay. I
was okay with with shooting the wall.
Like, it
that was that was that was Well, so
let me just tell my,
one of my ND stories.
I've had a couple of NDs that were
really kind of just
happened on the range,
and the bullet went in the general direction.
It should have, but it was not
the gun wasn't supposed to go off in
that moment. But the one real ND that
I've ever had in my life where it
was like a holy shit moment was I
had a gun malfunction, and I racked the
slide and the the seer did not engage
the,
firing pin or stiker, and the gun went
off. And the it was a 22, and
it hit the extra magazine
and didn't do damage to anything else in
the house. It was a miracle.
And I'll take that l any day Yeah.
Over over anything else that could have happened
in that moment. So
Rob is working very hard. I am I
am working hard to keep up with your,
intense
conversations
and keep the camera oriented correctly.
I don't know. The hammock's moving. I think
it's throwing off the the gyroscope. Off the
vibe.
So you,
you do not take credit for this different
approach to firearm safety, if I'm if I'm
not mistaken, Rob. You credit this to, another
instructor that you met early on in your
instructing career. Is that correct?
No. No. You're thinking of the the the
idea
of contextually based training and the up command
and a lot of the idea of,
accepting that everybody
responds as an individual before a member of
a team and
extension of that being reacts
as a, like, human animal, right, before a
trained person. But, no, actually, I I think
I have to take credit for for coming
up with rules
that made sense to me, and this was
a reaction. The the exact rules that we
still use today that you've been talking about,
really were were written down formally in 02/2003.
And it was, I had to come up
with the official rules that we were gonna
use at the Valhalla Training Center, and there
had just been an incident down at gun
site where,
a very respected instructor, guy who was a
mentor of mine who who's who's passed since,
had two of his students
dry fire
speed drawing against one another. And one Oh
my god. Yeah. One guy had loaded gun,
killed himself, killed his buddy. And the response
from the whole community in the aftermath of
that was, well, they should have followed the
rules.
And my thing was, well, maybe the rules,
quote unquote,
aren't good enough, team. Because we keep saying,
because I had been watching it at that
point for, you know, ten, fifteen years, every
time something bad happens, people say, well, they
didn't follow the rules.
Like I'm sure there's some asshole saying, well,
that guy pointed the gun at himself, so
he didn't follow the rule.
He didn't treat it as if it was
loaded, so he didn't follow the rules.
Right. Because he was a newbie,
panicking,
being given an instruction that was completely counterintuitive,
because he knew if he pulled the gun
and pointed in the direction he normally would
pull the gun out to unload and show
clear,
there was a potentially a person down there.
Mhmm. So it didn't fit. Right? And that's
why these always never
limited instruction,
limited thought process.
Everyone's gonna be safe today. Right, guys? Approaches
to safety,
they just keep failing.
You know? And you guys have made that
point well. And,
and then Edgar's like, hey. You wanna jump
on? And I'm like, yeah. I'm not doing
anything else. Yeah. So let me ask you.
I kinda brought it up already. I don't
know if you heard it or not, but
I, my experience with the working with instructors
and other people who like to educate people
about firearms is generally
people are stupid. We can't give them the
opportunity to think. We have to give them
absolute rules that apply in every situation that
they just memorize
because we can't count on any kind of
critical thought
from these people, especially when things get complicated
or or stressful.
I I think that's that's a pretty good
summary of the way a lot of people
approach it, but it's like delusions of grandeur.
Right? Like, does that e is that does
is that I know who you, mister man,
who's saying that must be omnipotent and super
capable of controlling everything for these poor students
you've invited to the range. But, what about
the new instructor? What about the guy who
just got certified by the NRA after a
a two or three day class?
What about the quote unquote instructor that got
certified by some organization to teach a PowerPoint,
but has never really been taught how to
teach on the range or run a live
fire range that now invites people out there?
Are they just as awesome as you, mister
man, who thinks
the little students can't think on their own?
You know, that's the problem. Is it's it's
this weird, I'm gonna put myself up on
a pedestal.
You know, it's why I say, like, you
know what I say. Like, I say every
class, listen, if something happens today, it's my
fault.
I'm gonna take responsibility if somebody gets hurt
today.
Because that's my job, my number one job
is to prevent anything
from from happening. And if if literally somebody
takes a gun out of their holster, shoots
the dude next to them in the head,
and then shoots themselves in the face, I'm
gonna take some accountability for not having seen
that coming, not having picked up on some
signs. Maybe there weren't any. I don't know.
But that's the way I approach every day
on the range. So
there are plenty of people who would say,
hey. That's not on me. I can't if
some guy's gonna intentionally pull a gun out
and shoot somebody, what am I supposed to
do about that?
Well, that's the that's the responsibility you take,
my friend, when you say you're gonna run
the range. And that's why that third rule,
the big picture rule says negligently
or maliciously. It's supposed to be a reminder
to all of us that if if somebody
wants to hurt us with these guns,
they have the opportunity. Ask Chris Kyle.
Right? You have the opportunity
to hurt somebody on the range when you
come to a class. So if everybody's not
thinking about that a little bit and looking
around a little bit,
Right? And then what does that do? That
eventually gets us back to proactive mental health
care. It gets us back to really talking
about these things in a serious adult way
that requires some subjectivity and some processing. And
unfortunately,
you know, most instructors don't wanna do that.
They wanna just say, here's the rules, follow
them,
and then proceed thirty seconds later to unload
a gun and say, okay, this gun's unloaded
right now. I'm gonna do some demos. Mhmm.
And not expect any of these students to
raise their hand and say, wait, sir,
Didn't you just say treat every gun as
if it's always loaded? Now I'm super fucking
confused. Right. Well, I think also it's just
it cut it's a generally lazy attitude to
assume that everybody Absolutely. Too dumb. And I
don't I'm not really particularly interested in an
instructor who is going to default to a
lazy
attitude about teaching anything, but especially
safety.
You're kind of saying, like, I don't wanna
take the time and effort to make sure
that my students understand the concept of what
we're doing out here. That's part of it.
I I think I think it's it's hard
to in 2025,
for me to point a finger at the
average instructor because, unfortunately, now they're like three
three or four generations of instructors if you
assume like there's a turnover every decade or
so. They're three or four decades or three
or four generations into just repeating this
and and they're looking up to these people
that have written books and have been on
TV and have been their gurus and have
run the big schools or founded the big
schools,
and and this is what they said. You
know, that's why so in 02/2003, I actually
went to Clint Smith,
before he shut down Thunder Ranch one and
moved up to, Oregon, which which recently he
and Heidi have left and,
relocated and moved on to the next chapter.
But when he was shutting down Thunder Ranch,
Texas was when I was standing up Valhalla
Training Center. And I went down there, all
of this had just happened, and I'm like,
man, it's it's frustrating.
And And he goes well, let me tell
you something, and I'm not gonna try to
do the Clint voice, he goes but let
me tell you something, you know the rules,
the universal rules, those four rules that everybody
credits the gun site, which which he was
the original operations director of? He goes let
me tell you something, I painted the sign
with the original rules,
and there were only three,
and they were the rules for gun handling
during a gunfight.
They weren't the universal rules. They weren't what
people make them out to be today, and
that whole thing is misrepresented and misunderstood.
Now to be fair, he still uses
those rules on his range or derivation of
those rules on the range, and whether you
use the three rules or the four rules,
or even if you use our rules,
it all comes back to something you said
earlier is balancing risk and benefit. And if
you're not thinking about that in the moment
as the instructor or as the gun owner,
you can't turn around afterwards and say, Well,
the rules.
I'm sorry, that means your rules weren't good
enough.
And I say that sitting on a hammock
after
twenty five years
next month
of teaching as my primary profession,
and never had a student shoot themselves or
anybody else in a class.
And and it's the the operational tempo, so
to speak, that I've had, the number of
classes I've taught, you know, people told me
I shouldn't say that, I should knock on
wood or whatever, but I started saying it
about twenty years there, about
five years ago once I hit twenty years,
because it's worth celebrating.
And and and it should give guys like
you who have adopted this practice
some level of of confidence in it, and
knowing that there's other instructors out there who've
been going at it for a decade or
more who also have that kind of track
record,
that means something. Because most of the gurus
that people look up to who use the
rules
can't sit on a hammock and say that.
Mhmm.
Yeah. Well, not only that, I think it
if you took a class
if you take an IDS class,
you might, as an observer or even as
a student, might feel like there's something significantly
missing from the class. And I'll give you
an example.
I'm sure you've run into this. In your
classes, you're very specific about what you've told
them to do and what and not telling
them things that you don't want them to
do. And, you know, I'm I'm telling you
I want you to do this.
And then
everybody turns around to go reload mags, and
you hear somebody
on the line pointed the gun in the
right direction and everything unloading their gun.
And you turn around, hey. What the fuck
are you doing? Like, I'm I'm I'm unloading
my gun. Why? I didn't tell you to
unload the gun. And then they're like, well,
isn't it unsafe? So there's a perception that
there's a hole
in the program because this thing wasn't addressed
at the beginning of the class even though
it wasn't addressed. Tell them to that that's
a that's a cold range. I think the
I think the concept of a cold range
sets people up for failure. Yeah. Right? It's
like the whole idea. Like, you can't and
and the the problem is it's the it's
the lack of critical thinking or the hypocrisy
of the person who at at one time
says, treat every gun as if it's loaded
all the time, every time, no matter what.
And then also accepts the concept of a
cold range.
Right? It's like that infamous
there was that that n d heard around
the entire instructor community by one of the
gurus. Again, guy who's brought a lot to
our community, been teaching since the nineties as
well,
and he fires around up into the sky
trying to show people how to press a
trigger properly on a double action revolver with
20 something
supposed instructors,
six sorry. I think six or seven of
his instructor staff there, and then a bunch
of instructor candidates
watching him with a revolver, which you usually
can tell if it's loaded,
supposedly watching his trigger press, watching that cylinder
turn, watching the hammer come back, and the
round goes off into the sky. And then
afterwards, instead of saying, yeah, that was totally
fucked up, saying, oh, well, we had the,
what, fourth or fifth level of safety in
play because we were in a remote area.
Fuck up. Like, come on, man. Like, I
love you. I'll buy you a beer. I
have bought you a beer, but that no.
We can't be saying things like that. Sometimes
we just have to say, yeah. We missed
it. We screwed up. That was bad. Glad
no one died. Don't follow my example. And
it was all based on the idea that
he thought the range was cold. And he
didn't know that one of his instructors
had been working with somebody else on reloads,
loaded her gun, and then handed it to
him for a demo without then unloading it.
But it was a cold range, so there
was no way that could happen. Mhmm. And
that's that's the freaking problem. But and again,
one of the guys who says always treat
a gun as it's loaded, but also we're
gonna have a cold range. It's like,
you're not thinking. Right. And you're you're defaulting
to a non thinking pattern.
That to me is how people get hurt.
So you call cold range, and then
you you're like, this is a cold range.
So then you walk in front of everybody
instead of thinking to yourself, everybody on this
line has a gun, and I need to
make sure
instead
of thinking to yourself, everybody on this line
has a gun, and I need to make
sure every gun's in the holster before I
walk in front of everybody.
Because we're not treating the range as cold,
I'm looking at your behavior and saying, is
this thing I'm about to do safe enough
given, you know, what we can see what's
going on right now? So Yeah. Yeah. There's
a pattern, and people get into patterns, you
know, that that cold and range thing. I
was at a conference,
couple few years ago
as a student.
I was like I was like a captain
of a group. We were doing, like, a
round robin. So I was like I I
had taught there previously a couple years, and
I was there. I don't I think I
might have been teaching on another day or
lecturing or something. But on this day, I
was a captain of a group. So I
brought the group to another instructor.
I knew he was a new instructor, but
I did not know that it was literally
his first time teaching. So here he is
invited to a conference and put up on
a pedestal, and he's going through the motions
of his class, and the girl next to
me had a, malfunction. And she didn't know
how to clear it. It was beginners, and
and everybody knew this was a group of
beginners in this group, right, except for the
team captains.
And the guy looks over. He sees the
girl with a gun in his hand. He
is walking out to give his lecture. He
looks over, looks right at her, goes back
to his lecture, but kinda looks at it
looks double takes. And I'm like, hey, dude.
She's still she's got a malfunction.
He's like, okay.
Can you help her with that?
Alright. And goes back to his lecture. And
I'm like, you're downrange,
man.
You can't be there. And then then, subsequently,
two of his two students had NDs within
the next half hour. And I finally then
I called the range call. I said, alright.
Stop. This is out of control. And then,
of course, I got in trouble, and now
I'm not invited back to that conference.
I I because I told the guy I
told the guy he just had to stop.
Isaac and I were the group before you,
and and we we warmed him up. Oh,
that's right. I forgot you guys were there.
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's what you were oh,
yeah. I,
I remember that. Isaac Isaac seen me go
at it with him before
you guys had an ND. Yeah. That guy
had a rough day. Well, and and and
this is this is the the the big
issue that I've always had. When I first
became an instructor, one of the very first
things that I questioned was how the gun
industry approaches safety.
And every instructor that I search for, and
this is why I'm always grateful for for
how open you were and and how receptive
you were of us in spite of us
being crazy,
is every instructor I would ask that was
ahead of me, the the previous generation,
quote, unquote,
what about the rules? Like, they it doesn't
make sense to me. It doesn't make sense
the way we approach them because
I just clean my Glock, and and one
of the things I did was press the
trigger
and that that's it's just small shit like
that. It seems like we're okay with just
regurgitation
in the say just for the sake of
tradition.
Well, that's that's what they did before.
And then this is how you have this
new instructor
set up for failure. It's probably not even
his fault. I mean, he was the tar
that did fucking retarded shit, but he was
taught that way. He was
he was led that way. He was led
to believe,
regurgitate the information, and and you'll be you'll
be just fine.
I did not know that was his first
day teaching.
Literally his first day teaching. Talk about getting
set up. Yeah. You have Edgar come through
first and then
And then and then it was that, oh,
you know, that guy really looked up to
you. He can't and and then you embarrassed
him. Hey, man. I did not said I
didn't put him on that stage.
I tried to pull him off. I tried
to do it politely, quietly with little hints
along the way, but then at some point,
it it just it turned into, no. Everyone
stop. You're not safe here. He's not taking
care of you. He's not meeting his responsibility
as an instructor.
And then then it was bad. But it's
like, you know,
could that have been handled differently? Well, no.
Honestly. Like, I gave him three hints.
He was he kept walking in front of
students with guns in their hands. He kept
challenging students to quick draw that had never
presented from the holster before on a timer
in some made up drill. He demoed the
drill and did it really fast, but didn't
hit the target.
Like, there everything was wrong.
It's like, man. Well, so I So yeah.
So
I just I I use I I guess
the reason I bring up a couple of
those examples,
it it it's
the other another big example is and a
lot of people know this one about the
instructor who shot his AI,
like, multiple times
in a shoot house
because he wanted to get a run-in after
all the students, and he ran into the
shoot house and didn't realize his assistant instructor
was inside the shoot house setting up targets.
And it was like, that came from this
demo because this the other people were like,
well, how fast can you do the run?
Mhmm. So he wanted to go in and
do the run so so he could tell
his students how fast he could do it.
Oh,
phone died. Phone died.
Phone died. Oh, he's back. Oh, oh, okay.
I'm back. Yeah. No. Anastasia's like, why haven't
you come back down to the I'm up
on the hilltop. She expected me back down
at the house. I'm trying I'm hanging out
with you guys. So it was,
yeah. But but do people get into these
habits of of this is okay to do?
Mhmm. It's o and and I'm the instructor.
It's okay for me to cut corners.
Mhmm. I'm the I'm the instructor. I'm doing
what I was taught to do or told
to do. Yeah. Yeah.
So Joseph has a question. How many hours
of training should instructors get, and how many
hours under another instructor before going solo?
Relevant topic since we're talking about somebody who
was flying solo for the first time.
Yeah. Unfortunately, it's a very subjective thing. I
don't think there's a magic answer. Right? It's
it's kinda like when people say, well, I
mean, I've sat in
the the
legislative halls with you guys test testifying
in committees
about the fact that you can't draw a
line and say students should have twelve hours
of training. Students should have eight hours of
training before they can carry a gun in
public. Some students are gonna need more than
that. Some students aren't gonna need that much.
Right?
And that's why it it's freedom.
And freedom isn't safe, and we need to
encourage people to meet their responsibility
to truly be prepared
if they're gonna and responsibly prepared if they're
gonna carry a gut in public. I think
it's the same thing. We as certifying instructors
need to make sure that that person, in
our eyes, is capable of taking responsibility for
what happens on a range with all the
variables that go with that. And that's why,
I don't know, ten, twelve years ago,
we instituted the requirement to team teach before
any of our certified instructors can be put
in what we call active status and and
advertise themselves as certified IDS or at the
time CFS instructors,
we need to make sure that.
Whether I'm signing off on them, Edgar is,
Derek, whoever is signing off on these people,
we again, I take responsibility for that. If
I've signed off on somebody,
that means I think they can handle it.
Right? And, and I don't put a time
limit on that. I, and we make it,
as you guys know, we make it very
clear when people come to our instructor course,
they're not gonna have a shooting test to
take at the end of it that denotes
they're good enough shooters to teach a class.
I mean, that's what it usually is, and
that's ridiculous.
Right? Even if they pass the written test,
they have a subjective teaching test they have
to do to convince us they know how
to convey the information to other people.
And then even if they pass both of
those tests and meet the requirements, quote, unquote,
for certification,
they still have to team teach with a
senior instructor, and there's no promise
that the first time you'll get cut loose
on your own. It may be two, three,
five. We've had instructors go at it for
years before they get certified. And some of
our best instructors, I think, in the program
are ones that earned it, that put the
time, effort, and energy in and and did
a lot of team teaching before they went
off on their own.
Yeah. Do you yeah. I think What do
you think, Edgar?
Yeah. I I that's that that that'd be
my answer. This idea of there needs to
be this level of,
five men five
classes before you do the stuff, and and
it it just doesn't it never makes sense.
They're they're students. There's instructors who who get
it off
fucking almost instantly, and then there's others who
who need
a lot of work. So it it's 100%
very, very subjective.
It it can't be
objective. It can't be due twenty hours or
because then that very easily leads to pay
to play.
As long as you pay me Sure.
Then then you're you're good to go. Very
clearly to to for Joseph, I I think
that if the program doesn't require
demonstration of an ability to teach,
then I think I think there's a problem.
If it's just a skill demonstration
or just a you hear the lecture and
you get the certificate because you were in
attendance, I think there's a problem.
I I have a a problem with organizations
that
give people instructor credentials
that imply
that they're live fire instructors when really they're
just PowerPoint instructors
that are that are now capable of
supervising a lecture, administrating a test, or reading
off a PowerPoint, or or whatever to a
group,
and that's been a a problem. I I
have a problem with
lowest common denominator
standards.
What I don't have a problem with and
let's go back to the the first part
of the hour you guys had or the
the first part of your two hours here
you had with your your buddy
on the requirements to become an instructor from
the government.
I don't I don't acknowledge that such a
thing is is appropriate. Right? Because again, freedom
isn't safe. I don't I think that we
as the private sector need to be discerning
in terms of who we choose, who we
endorse,
who we empower as instructors, but I don't
think the government should be involved at all.
And I think that's where the trick comes
in. Right? It's like, wait, Rob. You're saying
somebody has to jump through all these hoops
and reach these high levels and be
trustable
with human
human lives and responsibility for those lives. But
at the same time, you don't think the
sheriff should be able to see the curriculum?
Yes.
And that's that's if that's nuanced, if that's
complicated,
I apologize. But yes. One more thing about
Joseph's question. I think,
a responsible
and,
yeah, a responsible instructor
really is gonna seek out good mentors.
And so when it's how many hours of
training, it's like, well,
really, is it are they are they taking
on the role of as as an instructor
as a student first
and and working to be the best student
that they can be
under the mentors that they have found and
and find appropriate.
And, you know, the IDS program has that.
And I've talked to a handful of other
instructors
that won't let anybody teach with them until
they've mentored them for a little while. And
I think, you know, I might not agree
with what you're teaching
necessarily, but I think the student the instructor
mentor relationship is really important in this context.
It is. You know, historically, in the private
sector, it used to be like an apprenticeship.
Right? So go back to gun site. Gun
site's the birthplace of the private sector training
industry. They would have people go through all
their, like, you know, two, three, four levels
of classes. And if they made it through
all those classes, which which meant they were
a good shooter, a good gun handler, good
at the drills, because they would have to
pass they had, like, pass fail type classes
back in the day. Then eventually, people would
be invited
to become
instructors. And if they were gonna be invited
to become instructors, then there was a process
of being an assistant instructor,
and then being a lead instructor. And then
at one point at gun sight, really, like,
their business model revolved around students that became
instructors
that were certified to teach gun sight curriculum
back at home, and then they would spend,
you know, a couple weeks every year teaching
also back at Mecca, back at at the
gun site facility.
That's not that's not currently what they're doing,
and they haven't done that for a while.
But that for a long time was how
they they ran the place. And that created
a lot of instructors who were teaching that
quote unquote modern technique curriculum
around the country,
and they had come through an experience of
of many, many, many hours on the range
as a student watching other instructors,
watching different instructors teach the same curriculum, then
assisting with the curriculum,
then teaching the curriculum under supervision, and then
eventually getting cut loose to teach it on
their own. And
then when
training stopped being a hobby, honestly, in the
nineties in this country when
we had the growth of shall issue carry.
When we had the concealed carry revolution
and the shall issue
swept across the country, all of a sudden
people needed to train, and that meant we
needed instructors.
Because before that, training really was a hobby
in this country. There weren't a lot of
people out there training in the way that
you see people today saying, hey, I bought
a gun. I wanna carry it. I don't
wanna be a gun guy. I don't wanna
have the patches. I don't wanna be part
of your group. I don't care about your
politics. I just want the training so I
can defend myself or my family if I
need to. Those people are real, and they
are the ones that have required the growth
of the training community as we know it
today that's happened over the last twenty or
thirty years. Unfortunately,
at the beginning of that, we had a
lot of lowest common denominator instructors,
go through an NRA two or three day
course,
meet the state requirements,
teach a regurgitated,
very simple target shooting class,
recite, you know, the gun law, which I
think is the most important part of a
concealed carry permit classes that people are familiarized
with the dues and don't. Because we know
the live fire portions are trash.
And certainly, the the the NRA basic pistol
program, the live fire was trash. And it
wasn't didn't have anything to do with defensive
shooting, but the way the NRA set up
the lobbying back in the day, they became
the defacto instructor development course for the entire
country.
So we had an army of very, very,
very lowest common denominator instructors, which which I
would celebrate politically because it made it easy
for people to become instructors and easy for
people to become,
you know, allowed to carry guns for defense.
But it really did
set us off on a on a weird
tangent of get the piece of paper and
and check a box instructor certification.
Yeah. My experience in the NRA instructor course
teaching was reading word for word out of
the binder in front of the class.
Yeah. Exactly.
And I think part of the learning how
to become an instructor is, like, you have
to understand the material,
as well as you can for as far
as you are in the journey, but you
have to understand students too. And you don't
there's no way to learn that except to
be in front of or or even just
watching students as somebody else teaches
and see you start to see, you know,
patterns of behavior that repeat across different types
of students and learn how to spot them,
respond to them, teach around them, all of
that stuff.
Right. Yeah.
A 100%.
Oh, sun has set. Well,
you look better in the, sunset than you
do.
Alright. I'm gonna cut you guys loose. I
appreciate you letting me jump in on the
conversation.
Appreciate you guys spreading the word and doing
the good work in Colorado as always.
Always have a good rep. Have a have
a good rest of the show. We see
you.
Wow. Man, we got
we got we got the Rob Pincus on
our podcast.
The Rob Pincus.
I think that
that the nuance
anytime you're interacting with Rob, you're you're gonna
hear a lot of nuance.
And I think that people really fear that
nuance. I think it's part of the reason
why we go back to the four rules
all the time is because, like, nobody wants
to
take the time to understand, explain, or live
in a in a nuanced place.
But
I think with the way that we teach
the IDS class,
is is like you you slide people into
the nuance.
You know, we don't need to cover every
single Nuance topic right away. I'm going to
introduce some Nuance to you, and then we're
gonna build on that throughout the class.
Yeah.
And and I think that's that's a a
big issue. Right? We we see this with
with humans who who ask us the when
could I shoot the bad guy. Mhmm. I
don't know. Like and that's that's the nuance.
People just wanna be told what to do.
Instructors
that, unfortunately, we we have that come out
of the NRA,
and, dare I say,
a portion of the USCCA
nowadays
is,
are those instructors? Just tell me what to
say. Mhmm. Like, once you tell me what
to say, then, I don't it's it's not
as scary because now you've told me what
to say.
We we I know one lady here in
the state of Colorado. She's not a nice
lady, but,
she cannot do a class without her PowerPoint
presentation. Cannot do it. Cannot do it. I
I I we did a seminar together, and
she fucking lost it.
The students didn't get to see that, but
she fucking lost it. I was like, no.
We just won't use the PowerPoint.
She's like, no. But I need my PowerPoint.
Like, how else would I know what to
teach? Yeah. And, unfortunately, she mentioned this in
the class. She's like, I don't have my
PowerPoint, so I don't I don't know.
Like, that's I think that's an issue is
when people don't want to discuss the Nuance,
when people don't want
to to
because now that's a reflection
of your understanding of the information, which is
might be zero. Mhmm. It might be this
idea of, like, I don't know shit. And
when you get into the nuance, I can't
discuss it because I don't know shit.
But it's it's important to understand the nuance.
It's important to understand
why we say the four rules suck,
and then we get we get to explain
why they suck. We we we can have
a chat with John about why,
it's important for us to poke the bear.
We we have to have that nuanced conversation.
Yeah.
Yeah. The arms men says, I gotta say
excellent chat. Very informative, valid points. I come
across way too many so called instructors,
in my opinion, do not qualify for the
title.
I I get the sentiment definitely.
That's that's tricky because
there is this element of, like, what are
you teaching
and what are you not teaching?
You know? Like,
I I I call myself an instructor,
and if somebody came to me and said,
hey. You're a firearms instructor. Can can we
do some
long range instruction? The answer is
no. No. No.
I'm not qualified to do that. Yeah. I'm
not qual I mean, I could teach you
a a couple of things, but I'd probably
make you worse.
And, and, you know,
there's there's a lot of different things that
you could explore and teach around firearms.
And so if somebody comes to me and
says, oh, you're an instructor. Can you teach
me this? Most of the things that they're
gonna ask me to do are probably gonna
say no. Yeah. I'm not that instructor,
and somebody else can do that better for
you than I can. So, there is a
guy that I I
I see him at least once a year
because he we
end up at the same event every year,
and the guy is like a master level
trap shooter.
And I've got nothing to say to that
guy
when it comes to to trap shooting. Yeah.
You know? Like, I I'm consider me a
kindergartner here. Like, I know it's a shotgun,
and I know what we're shooting, and that's
all I really know. You know?
And on the flip side, he doesn't come
over to the range to the pistol range
to try to teach, you know, pistol handling.
He wants to learn
for himself
knowing that he know he's been doing shotgun
training for forty years.
He doesn't come over to the pistol range
and be like, alright, guys. I'm an instructor.
It's like he doesn't say any of that.
So Yeah.
Well, I I I think I think we're
maxed out for today. Like, how long Yeah.
I mean, we covered
a lot.
Quite a bit. Even though they're not on
anymore, I'd I'd definitely wanna say another thanks
to to John and and Rob for participating
and to everybody
who participated in the chat. I think the
content of this, podcast gets a lot better
when people participate in the chat
even if it's, like, you're not sure if
you're gonna say the right thing. That's
you know, I'm if if we challenge something
you say, it's not about you at all.
It's just, you know, we're trying to put
the best information out, and we're gonna use
anything that comes our way to explore that
stuff. So
Yeah. Yeah.
Appreciate that stuff. Remember, gfenational.com.
We we we have a lot of stuff
for Colorado there, but,
we now have Nevada up there, and we're
slowly working to to get as many states
as possible.
What what we're doing is
trying to add instructors that have gone through
the IDS course.
And if that instructor is doing
a lot of classes so far, I'm I'm
kinda struggling keeping up with that stuff.
The next one is probably gonna be California
with,
Desargo.
So we're we're trying to add these states.
The the my biggest struggle is as I
add these states, I also want to add
their laws,
and I wanna become familiar. So going to,
if you just go to our website, again,
gfenational.com,
just so you guys kinda know a little
bit about what the fuck we're doing and
and what to to look for as as
we move forward and and why it takes
some time for for us to do all
of this stuff. It's not it's not super
easy to do. I'm gonna pull it up
just so you guys watching, though. Those of
you guys that are watching kind of understand.
So I have Nevada.
And in Nevada,
I've got poor people Internet right now, apparently.
So it it's taking a while to load.
So now I have all of the laws
for for Nevada. And so reading up on
them and then,
copying and pasting it, it's pretty tough in
getting the correct one and then getting all
of them and organizing them and and all
that stuff, it it it gets complicated. So
I'm I'm doing this for all all 50
states eventually.
So, eventually,
Gunsboro National is gonna have
all of the states up there, but I
wanna start off by
doing,
the states that that we have instructors that
are consistently doing classes. We we have instructors
in states that'll do one or two in
their home state, but then they travel a
lot. So it's not like it's not consistent.
So but we do have
permit classes for for Nevada. We have defensive
shooting for Nevada.
So there's there's quite a bit there for
for Nevada right right now.
So check that shit out. That's what we're
working on. Hopefully, we'll have a state. So
if you wanna become an instructor in in
your state,
we have instructor development courses.
We're working on one in,
late September, I think, is what we're talking
about right now. So we'll see. I I
need to text Pincus and and see what
what day we're gonna do it. So at
any rate, that that's what we've got going
on for,
GFE National. We've got competitions coming up. Competitions
Got one on Saturday. Got one on Saturday,
and then we we've got one in in
August. Every month, we're gonna do at least
once,
do it once. And,
but, yeah, that's what we've got coming up.
Cool.
Well, thanks again for everybody participating, and,
yeah. Yeah. Have a good time. I appreciate
you guys. Have a good one. Alright. Peace.
Peace.