1 00:00:02,319 --> 00:00:04,160 Alright. We are live. We tried to wait 2 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:05,139 for for Isaac, 3 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:08,339 but he he's he's late as usual. 4 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:10,740 I don't know what his excuse is today, 5 00:00:11,839 --> 00:00:12,880 but I'm sure he's got, 6 00:00:13,839 --> 00:00:15,619 an okay one, a decent one. 7 00:00:16,135 --> 00:00:17,734 But at any rate, I appreciate you guys, 8 00:00:18,135 --> 00:00:19,515 joining us, tuning in. 9 00:00:20,135 --> 00:00:22,154 Today's gonna be a a pretty 10 00:00:22,695 --> 00:00:24,294 pretty fun one. I think it's gonna be 11 00:00:24,294 --> 00:00:25,274 a pretty fun one. 12 00:00:26,614 --> 00:00:29,195 We wanted to start off with with John, 13 00:00:30,509 --> 00:00:32,289 and I'll have him introduce himself, 14 00:00:32,909 --> 00:00:35,309 in just a a tad bit. But I 15 00:00:35,309 --> 00:00:37,090 think a a couple weeks ago, 16 00:00:38,429 --> 00:00:40,289 John sent me a a message 17 00:00:40,670 --> 00:00:41,969 on social medias 18 00:00:44,954 --> 00:00:45,774 saying things 19 00:00:46,554 --> 00:00:47,054 about 20 00:00:47,434 --> 00:00:48,894 the way we're we're advertising, 21 00:00:50,634 --> 00:00:51,375 some classes. 22 00:00:52,554 --> 00:00:55,034 And there's Isaac. We are live, so don't 23 00:00:55,034 --> 00:00:56,335 say anything about 24 00:00:56,875 --> 00:00:57,534 how you 25 00:00:58,030 --> 00:00:59,969 how you love The Rock naked. 26 00:01:01,870 --> 00:01:03,649 I haven't said that in a long time. 27 00:01:04,590 --> 00:01:05,650 It's been a while. 28 00:01:06,909 --> 00:01:08,590 I was I was just setting the scene, 29 00:01:08,909 --> 00:01:10,430 so you didn't miss much, but I was 30 00:01:10,430 --> 00:01:11,409 setting the scene. 31 00:01:13,094 --> 00:01:15,435 I love your board. The board is dope. 32 00:01:16,375 --> 00:01:18,774 Shit is awesome. The four rules suck. That's 33 00:01:18,774 --> 00:01:20,454 that's a great one. Maybe we'll talk about 34 00:01:20,454 --> 00:01:22,534 that later on. But, yeah, John, like like 35 00:01:22,534 --> 00:01:24,569 I was saying, John, hit me up, 36 00:01:25,450 --> 00:01:27,629 And he says, hey. What the fuck? 37 00:01:28,489 --> 00:01:29,790 Why are you saying 38 00:01:30,810 --> 00:01:31,310 that 39 00:01:33,049 --> 00:01:35,129 people need if I remember correctly, people don't 40 00:01:35,129 --> 00:01:36,890 need to take the class. If you already 41 00:01:36,890 --> 00:01:38,895 took the the class for, four or five 42 00:01:38,895 --> 00:01:41,395 years ago, six years ago, whatever, that counts. 43 00:01:42,255 --> 00:01:44,194 You're making it hard for us instructors 44 00:01:44,495 --> 00:01:46,575 because now the Denver people are gonna pass 45 00:01:46,575 --> 00:01:47,314 more laws. 46 00:01:48,334 --> 00:01:50,174 And, obviously, I told him how I disagree, 47 00:01:50,174 --> 00:01:51,909 and he says, well, I I don't know 48 00:01:51,909 --> 00:01:53,290 if we disagree, but, 49 00:01:54,230 --> 00:01:56,630 you're fucking shut up for the world. So 50 00:01:56,630 --> 00:01:58,069 I was like, well, this would be good 51 00:01:58,069 --> 00:01:59,209 for for the Internet. 52 00:01:59,909 --> 00:02:02,069 Why don't we we have this discussion on 53 00:02:02,069 --> 00:02:03,370 the Internet? Because, 54 00:02:04,415 --> 00:02:06,734 I always appreciate a human who instead of 55 00:02:06,734 --> 00:02:07,555 going on 56 00:02:08,014 --> 00:02:08,995 a on a signal 57 00:02:09,294 --> 00:02:10,034 chat room, 58 00:02:10,895 --> 00:02:13,534 goes directly to the people that they disagree 59 00:02:13,534 --> 00:02:15,395 with or have an issue with. And, 60 00:02:16,250 --> 00:02:17,610 this is how we become better, and this 61 00:02:17,610 --> 00:02:19,370 is how we understand each other, and this 62 00:02:19,370 --> 00:02:19,949 is how 63 00:02:20,409 --> 00:02:23,370 how we interact with with other human beings 64 00:02:23,370 --> 00:02:25,069 even if we disagree with them. 65 00:02:26,810 --> 00:02:27,310 So 66 00:02:28,490 --> 00:02:30,750 I'm gonna let John say his version, 67 00:02:31,555 --> 00:02:33,555 because I said my version. So I think 68 00:02:33,555 --> 00:02:35,794 it's only appropriate for for John to say 69 00:02:35,794 --> 00:02:36,534 his version 70 00:02:36,914 --> 00:02:39,094 and his account. But before you do that, 71 00:02:40,514 --> 00:02:41,414 tell the humans 72 00:02:41,954 --> 00:02:42,854 that are listening 73 00:02:43,590 --> 00:02:44,810 and that will listen, 74 00:02:45,349 --> 00:02:47,590 what Seven Hills Security is and what you're 75 00:02:47,590 --> 00:02:50,069 all about. And then after that, you can 76 00:02:50,069 --> 00:02:51,530 give your version of this. 77 00:02:51,990 --> 00:02:54,150 Hey. Thanks, Edgar. I I really appreciate it. 78 00:02:54,150 --> 00:02:55,909 Thanks for both your time, both Isaac and 79 00:02:55,909 --> 00:02:56,409 Edgar. 80 00:02:57,014 --> 00:02:59,415 My name is John Pusheen. I'm I'm the 81 00:02:59,415 --> 00:03:01,514 owner and operator of Seven Hills Security. 82 00:03:01,814 --> 00:03:05,415 I primarily focus now on firearms training, security 83 00:03:05,415 --> 00:03:06,635 training, and de escalation. 84 00:03:07,335 --> 00:03:10,074 I'm a retired law enforcement, former military. 85 00:03:10,379 --> 00:03:12,460 I've done stuff on the federal level as 86 00:03:12,460 --> 00:03:12,939 well. 87 00:03:13,580 --> 00:03:16,319 Trained in both, the law enforcement and, 88 00:03:16,860 --> 00:03:18,480 the military levels. 89 00:03:19,099 --> 00:03:19,599 And, 90 00:03:20,060 --> 00:03:20,560 Edgar's 91 00:03:21,819 --> 00:03:22,960 explanation is 92 00:03:23,564 --> 00:03:25,645 pretty on par except for the expletives. I 93 00:03:25,645 --> 00:03:27,025 tried to say, like, those. 94 00:03:28,364 --> 00:03:28,864 So, 95 00:03:29,324 --> 00:03:31,724 but, yes, I I fully agree with the, 96 00:03:31,724 --> 00:03:34,044 you know, civilly disagreeing with one another, and 97 00:03:34,044 --> 00:03:35,584 we're in the same realm here. 98 00:03:35,965 --> 00:03:38,705 We're all instructors. We we all wanna promote 99 00:03:39,930 --> 00:03:40,909 safe firearms 100 00:03:41,370 --> 00:03:42,509 instruction, I believe. 101 00:03:43,210 --> 00:03:46,250 The and it's the, I believe I put 102 00:03:46,250 --> 00:03:47,790 it as a poke in the bear 103 00:03:48,250 --> 00:03:49,389 as far as 104 00:03:49,849 --> 00:03:50,750 going out 105 00:03:51,050 --> 00:03:51,790 so far 106 00:03:52,415 --> 00:03:52,995 for recognizing 107 00:03:53,775 --> 00:03:54,275 classes. 108 00:03:54,574 --> 00:03:56,094 And that's something that I would like to 109 00:03:56,094 --> 00:03:58,574 get into deeper because different jurisdictions within the 110 00:03:58,574 --> 00:04:01,555 state of Colorado are dealing with that specific 111 00:04:01,775 --> 00:04:02,275 point 112 00:04:03,134 --> 00:04:03,955 very differently. 113 00:04:04,254 --> 00:04:05,375 And there's no 114 00:04:06,540 --> 00:04:08,319 there is no concrete 115 00:04:08,699 --> 00:04:11,020 line on how to actually handle that. So 116 00:04:11,020 --> 00:04:12,860 that is up for debate. It is up 117 00:04:12,860 --> 00:04:13,599 for discussion. 118 00:04:13,979 --> 00:04:15,900 I'm here in Larimer County. I'm a Larimer 119 00:04:15,900 --> 00:04:18,459 County verified instructor. Number one on the list 120 00:04:18,459 --> 00:04:19,819 for all those out there. You don't have 121 00:04:19,819 --> 00:04:20,720 to go too far. 122 00:04:21,580 --> 00:04:22,080 So 123 00:04:22,754 --> 00:04:25,014 even Larimer County is dealing with it differently. 124 00:04:25,235 --> 00:04:27,574 They're putting a cap on how long 125 00:04:28,115 --> 00:04:28,615 beforehand 126 00:04:29,154 --> 00:04:31,555 the the classes are good for, which is 127 00:04:31,555 --> 00:04:32,615 not in the law. 128 00:04:32,995 --> 00:04:33,495 So 129 00:04:33,875 --> 00:04:36,294 everyone's dealing with it differently. We as instructors, 130 00:04:36,514 --> 00:04:39,050 as you know, we have a 131 00:04:39,709 --> 00:04:41,470 we're scratching our head on how to figure 132 00:04:41,470 --> 00:04:43,889 out how to navigate this this new law 133 00:04:44,029 --> 00:04:45,970 because it is vague, it is ambiguous, 134 00:04:46,670 --> 00:04:48,589 and trying to figure out what to do 135 00:04:48,589 --> 00:04:49,889 in a reasonable way 136 00:04:50,269 --> 00:04:50,769 that 137 00:04:51,470 --> 00:04:51,970 doesn't, 138 00:04:53,185 --> 00:04:55,585 that well, let's focus on the focus on 139 00:04:55,585 --> 00:04:58,625 the positive that does get education out there 140 00:04:58,625 --> 00:05:00,085 to the people. 141 00:05:03,185 --> 00:05:05,759 Yeah. So, again, I I just wanna thank 142 00:05:05,759 --> 00:05:07,779 you for for jumping on a little explanation 143 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:09,040 of of who you are and what you're 144 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:10,879 all about and and all that stuff. And 145 00:05:10,879 --> 00:05:12,660 and I'm glad my memory doesn't 146 00:05:13,199 --> 00:05:16,079 doesn't fail me that bad just yet. But 147 00:05:16,079 --> 00:05:17,699 I I I do want to 148 00:05:18,625 --> 00:05:20,944 kinda discuss what the law says. Right? Because 149 00:05:20,944 --> 00:05:22,084 we get this a lot. 150 00:05:22,944 --> 00:05:24,245 We get this with, 151 00:05:25,425 --> 00:05:27,745 a lot of instructors. They're like, well, this 152 00:05:27,745 --> 00:05:30,805 jurisdiction is doing this and this jurisdiction. Like, 153 00:05:31,099 --> 00:05:33,180 for us, we don't give a shit. The 154 00:05:33,180 --> 00:05:34,539 law is the law. And if I have 155 00:05:34,539 --> 00:05:35,979 to follow the law, the sheriff has to 156 00:05:35,979 --> 00:05:38,379 follow the law. Eighteen twelve two zero one 157 00:05:38,379 --> 00:05:38,879 prohibits, 158 00:05:39,419 --> 00:05:41,199 sheriffs from making their own laws, 159 00:05:41,579 --> 00:05:43,180 and the law is very clear that the 160 00:05:43,180 --> 00:05:45,740 law is actually not ambiguous. The law is 161 00:05:45,740 --> 00:05:48,425 is actually super clear. Clear. It says, 162 00:05:49,125 --> 00:05:52,004 very specifically, the eight hours of instructions in 163 00:05:52,004 --> 00:05:53,625 a course do not need to be consecutive. 164 00:05:53,845 --> 00:05:54,584 Hard stop. 165 00:05:55,925 --> 00:05:58,985 There there is nothing that says or prohibits 166 00:05:59,044 --> 00:05:59,544 us. 167 00:06:00,009 --> 00:06:02,649 There's no time sensitivity. There's nothing that says 168 00:06:02,649 --> 00:06:04,569 the eight hours must be done within ninety 169 00:06:04,569 --> 00:06:07,610 days, within sixty days, within six months, within 170 00:06:07,610 --> 00:06:08,269 a year. 171 00:06:08,810 --> 00:06:11,129 It is a hard stop. The eight hours 172 00:06:11,129 --> 00:06:12,969 of instruction in a course do not need 173 00:06:12,969 --> 00:06:13,789 to be consecutive. 174 00:06:14,314 --> 00:06:15,995 And and I think this is the the 175 00:06:15,995 --> 00:06:18,415 difference. Right? This is the difference between, 176 00:06:19,754 --> 00:06:20,894 regular instructors, 177 00:06:21,194 --> 00:06:22,794 and and I hate to categorize it like 178 00:06:22,794 --> 00:06:24,235 that. So and and I don't I don't 179 00:06:24,235 --> 00:06:26,235 mean it in any type of way, but 180 00:06:26,235 --> 00:06:26,735 instructors 181 00:06:27,810 --> 00:06:28,949 who are just instructors 182 00:06:29,250 --> 00:06:31,490 and Guns for Everyone National, who is an 183 00:06:31,490 --> 00:06:32,629 international organization, 184 00:06:33,889 --> 00:06:36,289 we we operate not just here in The 185 00:06:36,289 --> 00:06:38,449 US, but but we conduct classes in other 186 00:06:38,449 --> 00:06:40,849 countries as well. So I think that's the 187 00:06:40,849 --> 00:06:42,469 difference is we are willing 188 00:06:42,974 --> 00:06:45,454 to go fight the bear. We we won't 189 00:06:45,454 --> 00:06:47,774 just poke that motherfucker. We will wrestle with 190 00:06:47,774 --> 00:06:50,254 it. We we will we will do the 191 00:06:50,254 --> 00:06:53,235 Lombardo with it. We will we will fight. 192 00:06:53,454 --> 00:06:56,194 We've sued your county, and we won. 193 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:58,879 We were successful during COVID when they wanted 194 00:06:58,879 --> 00:07:00,300 to do silly stuff, 195 00:07:01,399 --> 00:07:03,800 and we got them to to change their 196 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:04,620 ways. Now, 197 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:07,399 if we need to do it again, we 198 00:07:07,399 --> 00:07:08,860 will definitely do it again. 199 00:07:09,925 --> 00:07:12,165 And and we're not very liked because of 200 00:07:12,165 --> 00:07:13,705 this because a lot of organizations 201 00:07:14,165 --> 00:07:14,665 that 202 00:07:15,845 --> 00:07:18,485 that deal with our in our space are 203 00:07:18,485 --> 00:07:20,965 friends with your sheriff. They're friends with your 204 00:07:20,965 --> 00:07:22,025 neighboring sheriff, 205 00:07:23,060 --> 00:07:23,560 Reem's. 206 00:07:23,939 --> 00:07:26,019 And and we'll call that Reem's bullshit, and 207 00:07:26,019 --> 00:07:27,779 we'll call it because we're not we're not 208 00:07:28,099 --> 00:07:30,439 we don't mind being friendly with these people, 209 00:07:30,899 --> 00:07:33,240 but we're also not gonna tolerate 210 00:07:33,699 --> 00:07:35,959 the bullshit because it hurts the the 211 00:07:36,314 --> 00:07:38,175 the student at the end of the day. 212 00:07:38,715 --> 00:07:39,215 So, 213 00:07:40,435 --> 00:07:41,134 go for 214 00:07:42,074 --> 00:07:42,955 it. There's another, 215 00:07:43,355 --> 00:07:45,754 issue which is coming up across the counties, 216 00:07:45,754 --> 00:07:48,314 which I think is relevant for for you, 217 00:07:48,314 --> 00:07:48,814 John, 218 00:07:49,979 --> 00:07:52,139 because you're so close to to Weld County. 219 00:07:52,139 --> 00:07:54,060 And this is as far as I understand, 220 00:07:54,060 --> 00:07:55,899 this is happening. It might have changed in 221 00:07:55,899 --> 00:07:56,479 the last 222 00:07:57,659 --> 00:07:58,479 several weeks, 223 00:07:58,939 --> 00:08:01,579 but there are a handful of sheriffs that 224 00:08:01,579 --> 00:08:04,354 are requiring that the student must take the 225 00:08:04,354 --> 00:08:07,154 class from an instructor that is verified within 226 00:08:07,154 --> 00:08:09,154 the county that they're trying to get their 227 00:08:09,154 --> 00:08:10,615 permit in, which 228 00:08:10,995 --> 00:08:13,175 is not lawful and limits 229 00:08:13,634 --> 00:08:16,529 the student's selection of who they train with. 230 00:08:16,930 --> 00:08:19,430 Larimer County is not a small county, 231 00:08:20,129 --> 00:08:20,629 but 232 00:08:21,170 --> 00:08:24,069 the market share for Larimer County would be 233 00:08:24,370 --> 00:08:26,069 much bigger if it included 234 00:08:26,850 --> 00:08:28,550 the North Denver Metro Area. 235 00:08:30,050 --> 00:08:32,070 If you have sheriffs who 236 00:08:33,004 --> 00:08:33,985 are not following 237 00:08:34,445 --> 00:08:35,105 the law, 238 00:08:35,965 --> 00:08:38,384 they need to be stood up for, against 239 00:08:38,845 --> 00:08:40,684 on all of these points, not just some 240 00:08:40,684 --> 00:08:41,585 of these points 241 00:08:42,044 --> 00:08:42,544 because 242 00:08:43,404 --> 00:08:46,304 it affects the student, it affects the instructor, 243 00:08:47,090 --> 00:08:50,129 and it affects people's perception of what what 244 00:08:50,129 --> 00:08:52,050 they can be doing or should be doing 245 00:08:52,050 --> 00:08:53,269 within their own counties. 246 00:08:54,610 --> 00:08:57,410 So Larimer County did put out, an email 247 00:08:57,410 --> 00:08:59,910 and informational to all the verified instructors 248 00:09:00,605 --> 00:09:01,745 stating that, 249 00:09:02,845 --> 00:09:03,345 the 250 00:09:05,004 --> 00:09:06,065 verified instructor 251 00:09:06,684 --> 00:09:07,184 certification 252 00:09:07,884 --> 00:09:08,704 would be 253 00:09:10,764 --> 00:09:13,164 allowed to cross those county lines as you're 254 00:09:13,164 --> 00:09:13,904 talking about. 255 00:09:14,620 --> 00:09:17,039 What they suggested we do is we simply 256 00:09:17,179 --> 00:09:19,199 write on any certificate 257 00:09:19,500 --> 00:09:21,899 that we were Larimer County, that we are 258 00:09:21,899 --> 00:09:24,299 Larimer County verified instructors. So if it does 259 00:09:24,299 --> 00:09:25,919 go outside of Larimer County, 260 00:09:26,459 --> 00:09:28,480 they have a way to look it up 261 00:09:29,024 --> 00:09:29,524 expeditiously. 262 00:09:30,225 --> 00:09:32,065 Just check out the Larimer County site, find 263 00:09:32,065 --> 00:09:34,065 the person on that site. But I agree 264 00:09:34,065 --> 00:09:35,105 there's there's a 265 00:09:37,424 --> 00:09:39,504 that's what happens with this new law. It 266 00:09:39,504 --> 00:09:42,324 appears is that everyone's interpreting in it differently. 267 00:09:42,579 --> 00:09:44,500 Part of what I meant when I was 268 00:09:44,500 --> 00:09:46,579 talking about the laws ambiguous is not just 269 00:09:46,579 --> 00:09:48,740 this one section about the eight hours. There's 270 00:09:48,740 --> 00:09:50,980 a lot more inside that law. As a 271 00:09:50,980 --> 00:09:53,860 retired law enforcement, that section about teach how 272 00:09:53,860 --> 00:09:55,959 to deal with law enforcement when you're armed, 273 00:09:56,179 --> 00:09:58,039 that can vary person by person. 274 00:09:58,475 --> 00:10:00,715 And I I don't know your guys' background. 275 00:10:00,715 --> 00:10:01,835 I don't know if you've ever been in 276 00:10:01,835 --> 00:10:03,514 law enforcement, but if you've never been in 277 00:10:03,514 --> 00:10:05,935 law enforcement, now you're supposed to teach that. 278 00:10:05,995 --> 00:10:08,634 How do you do that? Mhmm. So that's 279 00:10:08,634 --> 00:10:09,455 very subjective. 280 00:10:10,075 --> 00:10:11,835 And I teach with a number of guys 281 00:10:11,835 --> 00:10:13,375 up here up in Northern Colorado, 282 00:10:13,980 --> 00:10:15,519 roughly four or five guys. 283 00:10:16,299 --> 00:10:17,980 None of them have been in law enforcement. 284 00:10:17,980 --> 00:10:20,480 They're all civilian based law enforcement instructors, 285 00:10:20,940 --> 00:10:22,720 great instructors and absolutely. 286 00:10:23,179 --> 00:10:25,820 But they've never had that other side of 287 00:10:25,820 --> 00:10:26,480 the badge 288 00:10:27,125 --> 00:10:29,205 experience on how to deal with someone with 289 00:10:29,205 --> 00:10:29,865 a firearm. 290 00:10:30,245 --> 00:10:33,205 And now civilian instructors are supposed to somehow 291 00:10:33,205 --> 00:10:35,365 teach that. So it's not just this one 292 00:10:35,365 --> 00:10:37,924 section about the eight hours. It has a 293 00:10:37,924 --> 00:10:40,049 lot there are a lot of other things 294 00:10:40,049 --> 00:10:41,809 inside the law. And, no, I'm not a 295 00:10:41,809 --> 00:10:44,690 politician. I'm not a lawyer. But trying to 296 00:10:44,690 --> 00:10:46,389 put this stuff onto civilian 297 00:10:46,850 --> 00:10:49,509 instructors who have no real world experience, 298 00:10:50,210 --> 00:10:53,429 education, or background is very tough on them. 299 00:10:53,649 --> 00:10:54,309 I wanna 300 00:10:54,644 --> 00:10:56,404 add on to your point there because that 301 00:10:56,404 --> 00:10:58,165 part of the law doesn't just say how 302 00:10:58,165 --> 00:10:59,384 to deal with law enforcement 303 00:11:00,325 --> 00:11:02,165 when you have a firearm. It says in 304 00:11:02,165 --> 00:11:03,305 emergency situations, 305 00:11:03,764 --> 00:11:05,465 which is even more ambiguous, 306 00:11:06,805 --> 00:11:08,644 when it comes to, like, what kind of 307 00:11:08,644 --> 00:11:11,019 emergency are we talking about. And then on 308 00:11:11,019 --> 00:11:11,919 top of that, 309 00:11:12,220 --> 00:11:15,279 the requirement to teach what the law states 310 00:11:15,500 --> 00:11:16,240 around the 311 00:11:17,259 --> 00:11:18,879 carrying, possession, purchasing, 312 00:11:19,740 --> 00:11:20,879 storage of firearms, 313 00:11:21,820 --> 00:11:24,195 the law has gotten complex enough that 314 00:11:24,575 --> 00:11:26,654 I don't even feel like in good faith 315 00:11:26,654 --> 00:11:27,634 I can teach 316 00:11:28,414 --> 00:11:30,174 the what the spirit of the law is 317 00:11:30,174 --> 00:11:31,394 asking me to do 318 00:11:31,774 --> 00:11:34,014 to somebody in an eight hour class. I 319 00:11:34,014 --> 00:11:36,334 really think that it should be a lawyer 320 00:11:36,334 --> 00:11:37,154 that's covering 321 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:39,960 this stuff in the if if we're going 322 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:42,539 to teach to what the law states here, 323 00:11:42,919 --> 00:11:44,759 the responsible way to do that would be 324 00:11:44,759 --> 00:11:47,179 to teach to have a lawyer come in 325 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:49,240 and cover all that stuff if we're trying 326 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:51,399 to really, meet the spirit of the law 327 00:11:51,399 --> 00:11:54,034 here. Because even even as a law enforcement 328 00:11:54,095 --> 00:11:54,595 officer 329 00:11:55,294 --> 00:11:58,434 who's interacted with parts of the law constantly, 330 00:12:00,095 --> 00:12:01,695 that doesn't mean that you know how to 331 00:12:01,695 --> 00:12:02,195 interpret 332 00:12:02,574 --> 00:12:04,514 the next new thing in the law. 333 00:12:05,970 --> 00:12:07,830 I agree with you 100% 334 00:12:07,889 --> 00:12:09,670 where where the ambiguity 335 00:12:10,529 --> 00:12:13,029 comes in if the state, 336 00:12:13,889 --> 00:12:16,450 the legislature on the state level puts out 337 00:12:16,450 --> 00:12:17,110 a class, 338 00:12:17,764 --> 00:12:19,065 a section of a class 339 00:12:19,524 --> 00:12:21,544 for the instructors to 340 00:12:22,644 --> 00:12:24,585 play for through recording 341 00:12:25,125 --> 00:12:27,125 to their students, then everyone can be on 342 00:12:27,125 --> 00:12:29,125 the same page. I guarantee you all three 343 00:12:29,125 --> 00:12:31,764 of us can teach this very same class 344 00:12:31,764 --> 00:12:32,664 by the statute 345 00:12:33,659 --> 00:12:35,759 completely different because of our own 346 00:12:36,139 --> 00:12:36,639 experience 347 00:12:37,179 --> 00:12:37,679 and 348 00:12:38,059 --> 00:12:40,620 style of teaching. We're gonna interpret it three 349 00:12:40,620 --> 00:12:43,579 different ways. And that shouldn't happen. If you 350 00:12:43,740 --> 00:12:46,045 if there's going to be a law that 351 00:12:46,045 --> 00:12:48,785 affects instructors on how we put out information 352 00:12:48,845 --> 00:12:49,585 to students, 353 00:12:50,285 --> 00:12:52,365 then we should have a guideline. And there 354 00:12:52,365 --> 00:12:54,144 hasn't been any guideline whatsoever 355 00:12:54,605 --> 00:12:56,465 given to any of us as instructors. 356 00:12:57,165 --> 00:12:58,865 In in addition to that, 357 00:12:59,965 --> 00:13:00,465 having 358 00:13:01,470 --> 00:13:03,970 just a a complete lack of guidance 359 00:13:04,269 --> 00:13:06,110 from the state level. And I'm not talking 360 00:13:06,110 --> 00:13:07,470 to sheriffs. The sheriffs are put in a 361 00:13:07,470 --> 00:13:09,250 horrible spot, in my opinion. 362 00:13:09,789 --> 00:13:11,950 This law is coming from the state. So 363 00:13:11,950 --> 00:13:14,985 from the state level, there's no guidance set 364 00:13:14,985 --> 00:13:16,125 down other than 365 00:13:16,585 --> 00:13:19,065 what can be interpreted in this law. So 366 00:13:19,065 --> 00:13:21,304 now the sheriff's departments are dealing with with 367 00:13:21,304 --> 00:13:24,105 it differently. The instructors are dealing with it 368 00:13:24,105 --> 00:13:26,985 differently. And now you have no consistent training 369 00:13:26,985 --> 00:13:29,120 to be put out there for the students. 370 00:13:29,580 --> 00:13:31,600 I fully agree with higher education 371 00:13:32,139 --> 00:13:32,879 when possible 372 00:13:33,259 --> 00:13:35,340 put out there to as many people as 373 00:13:35,340 --> 00:13:36,240 possibly can. 374 00:13:37,420 --> 00:13:39,679 But it need it should be consistent. 375 00:13:40,299 --> 00:13:41,440 Yeah. It should be consistent 376 00:13:42,404 --> 00:13:44,584 consistent within what is useful and, 377 00:13:45,204 --> 00:13:45,704 correct 378 00:13:46,084 --> 00:13:46,584 to 379 00:13:46,964 --> 00:13:48,644 to to teach the students. So you said 380 00:13:48,644 --> 00:13:50,004 that, you know, the three of us would 381 00:13:50,004 --> 00:13:52,084 all teach it differently based on our own 382 00:13:52,084 --> 00:13:54,024 understanding. We'd also teach it differently, 383 00:13:54,419 --> 00:13:56,100 and you said this earlier, based on the 384 00:13:56,100 --> 00:13:57,700 student. So if you're gonna teach somebody how 385 00:13:57,700 --> 00:13:59,000 to interact with law enforcement 386 00:14:00,100 --> 00:14:02,019 and within five minutes, you're like, this person 387 00:14:02,019 --> 00:14:03,240 maybe doesn't have 388 00:14:03,620 --> 00:14:05,940 as many IQ points as this other person 389 00:14:05,940 --> 00:14:06,440 does, 390 00:14:07,139 --> 00:14:09,159 you might instruct them a little bit differently 391 00:14:09,725 --> 00:14:12,125 or based on their background or their experience 392 00:14:12,125 --> 00:14:15,665 with law enforcement. So it's also highly dependent 393 00:14:15,725 --> 00:14:18,285 on the class or the student that you're 394 00:14:18,285 --> 00:14:20,705 talking to and what needs to be communicated 395 00:14:20,845 --> 00:14:21,745 to that person. 396 00:14:22,809 --> 00:14:25,289 It's one of the reasons why mandated training 397 00:14:25,289 --> 00:14:27,070 and structured mandated training 398 00:14:27,529 --> 00:14:28,029 is 399 00:14:28,409 --> 00:14:31,389 is a is a risk, not a benefit 400 00:14:31,529 --> 00:14:33,470 to the learning process and helping 401 00:14:33,769 --> 00:14:34,269 helping 402 00:14:35,610 --> 00:14:36,990 people learn how to 403 00:14:37,575 --> 00:14:39,995 safely carry and handle a firearm in public. 404 00:14:40,535 --> 00:14:41,035 Absolutely. 405 00:14:41,415 --> 00:14:42,315 So back to 406 00:14:43,495 --> 00:14:45,995 the the original point. Yes, sir. 407 00:14:46,934 --> 00:14:47,434 The 408 00:14:49,654 --> 00:14:52,475 if if if you are an instructor 409 00:14:53,220 --> 00:14:53,720 who 410 00:14:54,100 --> 00:14:56,199 is concerned with guns for everyone 411 00:14:57,539 --> 00:14:58,679 following the law 412 00:15:00,100 --> 00:15:00,919 to a tee, 413 00:15:01,459 --> 00:15:03,139 which is not something we like to do 414 00:15:03,139 --> 00:15:05,620 and or or advocate for, we usually are 415 00:15:05,620 --> 00:15:06,600 more on the 416 00:15:07,034 --> 00:15:10,154 the politicians don't know anything, and they create 417 00:15:10,154 --> 00:15:11,214 really bad laws. 418 00:15:13,115 --> 00:15:16,554 So the more compliant we are, the more 419 00:15:16,554 --> 00:15:18,794 they get away with. So it's it's this 420 00:15:18,794 --> 00:15:19,710 this thing. So 421 00:15:20,830 --> 00:15:23,070 here's here's my my position, and I don't 422 00:15:23,070 --> 00:15:24,750 know if I expressed this to you when 423 00:15:24,750 --> 00:15:26,670 we were having our it it wasn't a 424 00:15:26,670 --> 00:15:28,110 a a huge back and forth. I think 425 00:15:28,110 --> 00:15:29,470 we said a couple of things, and then 426 00:15:29,470 --> 00:15:31,230 we agreed, yeah, let let's have a further 427 00:15:31,230 --> 00:15:33,605 conversation about this. And and the law gets 428 00:15:33,605 --> 00:15:35,365 lost in text. That's the other thing I 429 00:15:35,365 --> 00:15:36,825 don't like about text is 430 00:15:37,284 --> 00:15:39,365 we don't know what what the intentions are 431 00:15:39,365 --> 00:15:40,725 and and all that stuff. So this is 432 00:15:40,725 --> 00:15:42,884 a better platform because we get to talk 433 00:15:42,884 --> 00:15:44,184 to each other, and then 434 00:15:44,565 --> 00:15:46,164 people get to hear it and and share 435 00:15:46,164 --> 00:15:47,845 it and all that stuff. But at any 436 00:15:47,845 --> 00:15:48,299 rate, 437 00:15:49,500 --> 00:15:50,720 if if 438 00:15:51,179 --> 00:15:53,580 instructors because there's a lot of instructors who 439 00:15:53,580 --> 00:15:55,659 are probably on your side. Why is Edgar? 440 00:15:55,659 --> 00:15:57,679 Why is Isaac? Why is guns for everyone 441 00:15:57,740 --> 00:16:00,879 advertising it? They're gonna make more laws, 442 00:16:01,654 --> 00:16:03,414 be passed because of the way they're doing 443 00:16:03,414 --> 00:16:05,574 it. They're gonna amend this law, and it's 444 00:16:05,574 --> 00:16:07,514 all gonna be guns for everyone's fault. 445 00:16:08,214 --> 00:16:10,534 And and first off, everybody always needs somebody 446 00:16:10,534 --> 00:16:12,134 to blame. So even if it's not our 447 00:16:12,134 --> 00:16:14,049 fault, they're gonna blame us. Go go go 448 00:16:14,049 --> 00:16:15,889 to Reddit really quick, and and you'll see 449 00:16:15,889 --> 00:16:18,049 that people blame us for this law that 450 00:16:18,049 --> 00:16:21,009 exists right now. In fact, some people try 451 00:16:21,009 --> 00:16:23,429 calling it, the guns for everyone law. 452 00:16:24,690 --> 00:16:25,670 And and 453 00:16:26,455 --> 00:16:29,835 that is people just wanna blame other people 454 00:16:30,294 --> 00:16:31,754 for for the stuff. But 455 00:16:32,294 --> 00:16:33,674 if you are 456 00:16:35,495 --> 00:16:38,774 if you're already acting as if a new 457 00:16:38,774 --> 00:16:40,475 law existed so 458 00:16:40,809 --> 00:16:42,490 if instructors are saying here, I don't want 459 00:16:42,490 --> 00:16:44,649 this law to pass, so I'm not going 460 00:16:44,649 --> 00:16:46,269 to do what Edgar is doing. 461 00:16:46,730 --> 00:16:48,410 I'm just gonna tell students to take an 462 00:16:48,410 --> 00:16:49,389 eight hour course, 463 00:16:50,570 --> 00:16:52,809 so that the law doesn't change. Then for 464 00:16:52,809 --> 00:16:54,570 me, it's just like the politicians kind of 465 00:16:54,570 --> 00:16:57,865 already won because they're already having you act 466 00:16:57,924 --> 00:16:58,424 ahead 467 00:16:59,284 --> 00:17:02,084 instead of in in in the the current. 468 00:17:02,084 --> 00:17:04,825 So you're already in fear of new laws. 469 00:17:05,285 --> 00:17:07,444 So you're already acting as if a new 470 00:17:07,444 --> 00:17:09,765 law already passed. So, like, there's instructors who 471 00:17:09,765 --> 00:17:10,345 are already, 472 00:17:10,690 --> 00:17:13,090 nope. I'm just gonna make, students take a 473 00:17:13,090 --> 00:17:15,349 class all all over again, which for me 474 00:17:16,210 --> 00:17:16,710 is 475 00:17:17,490 --> 00:17:19,490 is, one, not legal, but the other side 476 00:17:19,490 --> 00:17:21,269 of it is potentially disingenuous 477 00:17:21,809 --> 00:17:23,029 depending on the instructor. 478 00:17:23,545 --> 00:17:25,224 Because now it's just like you see another 479 00:17:25,224 --> 00:17:27,464 way to make money instead of, like, granny 480 00:17:27,464 --> 00:17:30,204 doesn't have an extra $300, 481 00:17:30,505 --> 00:17:33,005 and now you're forcing her to spend $300 482 00:17:33,464 --> 00:17:35,384 because you don't want a lot of past 483 00:17:35,384 --> 00:17:37,625 in the future. It's like it's what is 484 00:17:37,625 --> 00:17:38,285 that movie? 485 00:17:39,369 --> 00:17:40,269 Future crimes. 486 00:17:41,450 --> 00:17:43,230 I forget the name of that movie. Report. 487 00:17:43,289 --> 00:17:44,269 Minority report. 488 00:17:44,970 --> 00:17:47,210 So so we're if we're already acting as 489 00:17:47,210 --> 00:17:49,289 if the law changed, then what's what's the 490 00:17:49,289 --> 00:17:51,069 problem with guns for everyone 491 00:17:52,164 --> 00:17:54,984 following the law? And they it potentially change. 492 00:17:57,765 --> 00:17:58,984 So Go. 493 00:17:59,445 --> 00:18:02,164 So I'm not necessarily coming at this from 494 00:18:02,164 --> 00:18:04,644 a point of fear of another law. I'm 495 00:18:04,644 --> 00:18:07,519 really not. I'll give you a real life, 496 00:18:08,619 --> 00:18:10,319 example here in Larimer County 497 00:18:10,859 --> 00:18:12,000 is Larimer 498 00:18:12,859 --> 00:18:13,599 County created 499 00:18:14,539 --> 00:18:15,039 a, 500 00:18:15,819 --> 00:18:18,059 part of their you can check on their 501 00:18:18,059 --> 00:18:18,559 website, 502 00:18:18,904 --> 00:18:21,384 and I'm I'm hoping I get this right 503 00:18:21,384 --> 00:18:24,024 as far as the the time frame for 504 00:18:24,024 --> 00:18:24,524 each. 505 00:18:24,984 --> 00:18:25,884 Though a 506 00:18:26,345 --> 00:18:28,825 initial class is only good for one calendar 507 00:18:28,825 --> 00:18:30,825 year, and a renewal class is only good 508 00:18:30,825 --> 00:18:31,884 for six months. 509 00:18:32,345 --> 00:18:35,369 So that's what Larimer County is saying. So, 510 00:18:36,630 --> 00:18:37,130 example, 511 00:18:37,509 --> 00:18:39,589 if somebody who took your class six years 512 00:18:39,589 --> 00:18:41,429 ago gets your cert, then they bring it 513 00:18:41,429 --> 00:18:43,589 to Larimer County, Larimer County is gonna kick 514 00:18:43,589 --> 00:18:46,569 it back. And then that causes that 515 00:18:47,044 --> 00:18:48,744 problem on the student end. 516 00:18:49,924 --> 00:18:52,744 So it it can lead possibly 517 00:18:53,285 --> 00:18:56,105 to some frustration on the student end. 518 00:18:56,804 --> 00:18:59,365 Also some it's a if you go to 519 00:18:59,365 --> 00:19:00,424 the Larimer County 520 00:19:01,850 --> 00:19:04,090 sheriff's office website, if that's what you're trying 521 00:19:04,090 --> 00:19:04,990 to find now. 522 00:19:05,529 --> 00:19:06,170 If you 523 00:19:06,890 --> 00:19:08,190 if they are 524 00:19:09,049 --> 00:19:09,549 discouraged 525 00:19:10,090 --> 00:19:12,570 because they're being told one thing from an 526 00:19:12,570 --> 00:19:14,970 instructor and something else from the sheriff's office 527 00:19:14,970 --> 00:19:15,470 themselves, 528 00:19:16,214 --> 00:19:18,214 Again, those two entities aren't on the same 529 00:19:18,214 --> 00:19:18,714 page. 530 00:19:19,174 --> 00:19:21,194 So the person who's going to 531 00:19:21,494 --> 00:19:23,914 get the backlash from that is the student 532 00:19:24,054 --> 00:19:25,115 and student themselves, 533 00:19:25,494 --> 00:19:27,914 and then they're gonna be discouraged from actually 534 00:19:27,974 --> 00:19:29,115 following the process. 535 00:19:29,470 --> 00:19:32,509 Whether you agree with the law, disagree with 536 00:19:32,509 --> 00:19:33,009 the 537 00:19:33,309 --> 00:19:34,930 law, agree with, you know, 538 00:19:35,309 --> 00:19:36,690 open carry or 539 00:19:36,990 --> 00:19:40,610 constitutional carry, that that doesn't matter in this 540 00:19:40,670 --> 00:19:41,170 situation. 541 00:19:41,794 --> 00:19:43,714 It is simply how can we get the 542 00:19:43,714 --> 00:19:45,255 information out to the students 543 00:19:46,034 --> 00:19:47,335 in the correct way 544 00:19:47,634 --> 00:19:50,134 where the jurisdictions on which they live 545 00:19:50,515 --> 00:19:52,515 are going to accept the paperwork that we 546 00:19:52,515 --> 00:19:55,075 as instructors give to them and make it 547 00:19:55,075 --> 00:19:58,019 less complicated on them. So that's kinda where 548 00:19:58,019 --> 00:19:59,779 I'm coming from. That's why I say I 549 00:19:59,779 --> 00:20:01,000 don't I don't agree 550 00:20:01,380 --> 00:20:03,720 with having something be five, ten years 551 00:20:04,819 --> 00:20:05,319 from 552 00:20:05,779 --> 00:20:06,279 yesterday 553 00:20:07,059 --> 00:20:09,299 because here in Larimer County, they've even put 554 00:20:09,299 --> 00:20:10,579 a cap. Like I said, they put a 555 00:20:10,579 --> 00:20:12,259 cap of one year for new, I believe 556 00:20:12,259 --> 00:20:13,855 it is, and six months for renewals. 557 00:20:14,234 --> 00:20:15,994 So that that's not a that's not a 558 00:20:15,994 --> 00:20:18,475 a a cap on when you could take 559 00:20:18,475 --> 00:20:20,955 the next class. So for the the people 560 00:20:20,955 --> 00:20:21,455 listening, 561 00:20:21,914 --> 00:20:23,535 that are in Colorado potentially, 562 00:20:25,769 --> 00:20:28,490 The state law says that once you complete 563 00:20:28,490 --> 00:20:30,730 the entire eight hours, once you get the 564 00:20:30,730 --> 00:20:31,230 certificate, 565 00:20:31,849 --> 00:20:34,730 once that happens, you have one calendar year 566 00:20:34,730 --> 00:20:36,750 to go apply for a new applicant 567 00:20:37,289 --> 00:20:39,210 for a new application, a new permit. And 568 00:20:39,210 --> 00:20:40,269 if you're a renewal, 569 00:20:40,625 --> 00:20:43,345 it is six months that your certificate is 570 00:20:43,345 --> 00:20:45,445 good for. That is not a cap 571 00:20:46,785 --> 00:20:48,965 on when you take the full eight hours. 572 00:20:49,025 --> 00:20:52,225 It's from the day you you receive your 573 00:20:52,225 --> 00:20:52,725 certificate, 574 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:55,259 you have one year to go apply. 575 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:57,500 That's what that cap is for. 576 00:20:58,039 --> 00:21:00,840 And that and that's, that's state law. That's 577 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:02,039 not just Larimer County. 578 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:04,299 And so 579 00:21:05,644 --> 00:21:08,125 to to your point, John, about it affecting 580 00:21:08,125 --> 00:21:09,804 the student, we we do think about that 581 00:21:09,804 --> 00:21:12,204 a lot. We and we occasionally run into 582 00:21:12,204 --> 00:21:13,264 issues where, 583 00:21:14,284 --> 00:21:15,105 you know, the 584 00:21:16,044 --> 00:21:17,505 the county is not accepting 585 00:21:18,204 --> 00:21:20,784 a certificate for one reason or another. 586 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:21,619 And 587 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:24,339 we we come at it from two directions. 588 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:27,039 One, let's get this problem solved right away 589 00:21:27,039 --> 00:21:29,119 for the student. Mhmm. And it can happen 590 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:31,279 for a lot of reasons. Like, you know, 591 00:21:31,279 --> 00:21:33,200 I'm sure this has happened to lots of 592 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:34,819 instructors at some point where 593 00:21:35,804 --> 00:21:38,284 the date is wrong on the certificate. It 594 00:21:38,284 --> 00:21:41,404 was dated a year prior or maybe even 595 00:21:41,404 --> 00:21:43,804 a year in the future. You and nobody 596 00:21:43,804 --> 00:21:45,744 picked you know, nobody caught that mistake 597 00:21:46,125 --> 00:21:48,284 before the student took it to the sheriff, 598 00:21:48,284 --> 00:21:50,204 and the sheriff's not gonna accept that because 599 00:21:50,204 --> 00:21:51,399 the date's wrong. 600 00:21:52,659 --> 00:21:54,659 And, you know, that's that's a problem that's 601 00:21:54,659 --> 00:21:57,220 just an administrative error that needs to be 602 00:21:57,220 --> 00:21:59,940 resolved immediately because it, again, it affects the 603 00:21:59,940 --> 00:22:00,440 student. 604 00:22:00,899 --> 00:22:03,539 Mhmm. But if the sheriff's department is not 605 00:22:03,539 --> 00:22:06,174 following the law and the student is affected 606 00:22:06,234 --> 00:22:07,055 by that, 607 00:22:07,515 --> 00:22:10,875 that's not the instructor's fault. Right. That's the 608 00:22:10,875 --> 00:22:13,315 sheriff's fault. And so if Yes. 609 00:22:13,755 --> 00:22:16,234 If if the sheriff is rejecting let's just 610 00:22:16,234 --> 00:22:18,015 say in Weld County, 611 00:22:18,710 --> 00:22:19,450 is rejecting 612 00:22:20,070 --> 00:22:23,109 a student certificate because the instructor is verified 613 00:22:23,109 --> 00:22:25,369 in Larimer County and not in Weld County, 614 00:22:26,070 --> 00:22:28,970 and the student says, hey. You screwed me. 615 00:22:29,589 --> 00:22:31,750 No. I didn't. The sheriff is screwing you 616 00:22:31,750 --> 00:22:32,355 right now, 617 00:22:32,755 --> 00:22:34,674 and we need to get the sheriff to 618 00:22:34,674 --> 00:22:35,974 comply with the law, 619 00:22:37,714 --> 00:22:39,974 and not and not bend the situation 620 00:22:40,355 --> 00:22:42,375 around these unlawful requirements. 621 00:22:42,835 --> 00:22:44,515 We need to educate the sheriff, and if 622 00:22:44,515 --> 00:22:46,595 if necessary, we need to take it beyond 623 00:22:46,595 --> 00:22:47,414 that. So 624 00:22:48,730 --> 00:22:50,509 I I think that's kind of, like, 625 00:22:50,970 --> 00:22:52,029 where you're saying 626 00:22:52,329 --> 00:22:54,169 we don't wanna do things that affect the 627 00:22:54,169 --> 00:22:54,669 student, 628 00:22:55,130 --> 00:22:57,929 and that's absolutely true. But in many of 629 00:22:57,929 --> 00:23:00,250 these cases, it's the sheriff that's affecting the 630 00:23:00,250 --> 00:23:01,710 student, not the the instructor. 631 00:23:02,414 --> 00:23:04,495 So so let me ask you guys this, 632 00:23:04,495 --> 00:23:06,434 and I see and I appreciate the highlighted 633 00:23:07,295 --> 00:23:08,275 portion of the 634 00:23:08,575 --> 00:23:09,795 of the statute here. 635 00:23:10,255 --> 00:23:13,315 Are you taking it that whenever 636 00:23:13,934 --> 00:23:14,434 the 637 00:23:15,559 --> 00:23:16,059 completion 638 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,579 of your shoot is done is when your 639 00:23:20,599 --> 00:23:23,480 time period for your certificate your certificate as 640 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:24,700 a student is then 641 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,500 even though they may have taken the classroom 642 00:23:27,559 --> 00:23:28,619 portion five, 643 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,924 seven, eight years ago? Is that how you 644 00:23:32,065 --> 00:23:32,724 you guys 645 00:23:33,105 --> 00:23:35,204 are interpreting it? And again, it's an interpretation. 646 00:23:35,505 --> 00:23:35,744 I'm not 647 00:23:36,544 --> 00:23:39,444 I I I really truly appreciate the civil 648 00:23:40,304 --> 00:23:40,804 conversation 649 00:23:41,105 --> 00:23:44,164 and and the fact that we can disagree 650 00:23:44,384 --> 00:23:46,804 and all still have the same intent. 651 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,160 I'm just curious where you guys are coming 652 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:50,380 from on that end. 653 00:23:51,799 --> 00:23:52,299 So, 654 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:54,539 I'll let Edgar answer the 655 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:56,680 interpretation part, but I'll tell you what our 656 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:58,920 our what our practice is is that once 657 00:23:58,920 --> 00:23:59,660 you complete 658 00:24:00,345 --> 00:24:01,484 all of the requirements 659 00:24:02,025 --> 00:24:04,424 under the new law, that's when you receive 660 00:24:04,424 --> 00:24:06,424 your certificate and is dated for the day 661 00:24:06,424 --> 00:24:08,444 that you complete all of the requirements. 662 00:24:10,025 --> 00:24:12,684 Yeah. And and from the the other perspective 663 00:24:12,744 --> 00:24:14,924 is from the legal perspective, it's 664 00:24:17,750 --> 00:24:19,930 it's it's not just an interpretation. 665 00:24:20,309 --> 00:24:22,390 It is what the law says at this 666 00:24:22,390 --> 00:24:25,369 moment is we're not doing anything that is 667 00:24:25,589 --> 00:24:26,809 illegal. That's 668 00:24:27,269 --> 00:24:29,534 from the if we go back to the 669 00:24:29,534 --> 00:24:31,554 the highlighted portion. Right? It says, 670 00:24:32,815 --> 00:24:34,335 if I go back to the eighteen twelve 671 00:24:34,335 --> 00:24:36,335 two zero three, for the people that are 672 00:24:36,335 --> 00:24:39,855 not watching, this is alexisnexus.com/hottopics, 673 00:24:40,174 --> 00:24:42,414 slash colorado. Eight that's the official source in 674 00:24:42,414 --> 00:24:45,340 the state of Colorado. +1 812203, 675 00:24:46,120 --> 00:24:47,340 subsection one, 676 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:49,500 h, 677 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:51,900 in h six, 678 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,640 it says a training certificate from a concealed 679 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:57,660 handgun training class obtained within 680 00:24:58,035 --> 00:24:59,575 one year from the proceedings, 681 00:25:00,275 --> 00:25:02,275 submittal of the application. So that's when you 682 00:25:02,275 --> 00:25:03,095 get the certificate. 683 00:25:03,795 --> 00:25:05,795 So we would not issue the certificate in 684 00:25:05,795 --> 00:25:08,535 the until they've completed the entire eight hours. 685 00:25:08,835 --> 00:25:11,234 And, again, we already read in in the 686 00:25:11,234 --> 00:25:12,055 other portion, 687 00:25:13,450 --> 00:25:15,130 but I'll I'll say it again for for 688 00:25:15,130 --> 00:25:17,149 the people that are are just tuning in. 689 00:25:18,250 --> 00:25:20,809 It it talks about getting a concealed handgun 690 00:25:20,809 --> 00:25:22,490 training class must be held in person, blah 691 00:25:22,490 --> 00:25:24,169 blah blah. And then the last sentence is 692 00:25:24,169 --> 00:25:26,089 the eight hours of instruction in a course 693 00:25:26,089 --> 00:25:27,470 do not need to be consecutive. 694 00:25:28,724 --> 00:25:30,724 So if you took my class three years 695 00:25:30,724 --> 00:25:32,184 ago, four hours, 696 00:25:32,884 --> 00:25:34,964 and you join us at the range for 697 00:25:34,964 --> 00:25:37,285 another four hours, that's a total of eight 698 00:25:37,285 --> 00:25:38,744 hours. It wasn't consecutive, 699 00:25:39,365 --> 00:25:41,525 but the certificate would not be issued until 700 00:25:41,525 --> 00:25:43,740 you complete the entire eight hours. 701 00:25:44,940 --> 00:25:46,779 And that's what we would fight. Now if 702 00:25:46,779 --> 00:25:49,339 if we, took this to court, because I'm 703 00:25:49,339 --> 00:25:49,839 sure, 704 00:25:52,140 --> 00:25:55,500 they're because so my position is because there's 705 00:25:55,500 --> 00:25:56,720 not enough instructors 706 00:25:57,019 --> 00:25:59,115 that are fighting for people's rights, 707 00:25:59,674 --> 00:26:01,355 sheriffs get to do whatever the fuck they 708 00:26:01,355 --> 00:26:04,634 want. So until we have enough sheriffs I'm 709 00:26:04,634 --> 00:26:06,255 sorry. Until we have enough instructors 710 00:26:07,194 --> 00:26:09,595 who are fighting against this and kind of 711 00:26:09,595 --> 00:26:11,515 jumping on board, say, yeah. We we want 712 00:26:11,515 --> 00:26:12,539 to fight for rights. 713 00:26:13,019 --> 00:26:15,180 We're probably gonna have more sheriffs who are 714 00:26:15,180 --> 00:26:16,400 like, well, see, we have 715 00:26:16,859 --> 00:26:19,840 16 instructors who just bend at our will, 716 00:26:20,859 --> 00:26:23,180 and that that's a problem. So we will 717 00:26:23,180 --> 00:26:24,799 have to fight sheriffs 718 00:26:25,100 --> 00:26:26,595 on this. I'm sure we will. 719 00:26:27,634 --> 00:26:29,714 And, we're ready for it. And I think 720 00:26:29,714 --> 00:26:30,454 that's the 721 00:26:30,794 --> 00:26:31,294 the 722 00:26:31,634 --> 00:26:34,855 the the huge difference between our students 723 00:26:35,154 --> 00:26:37,554 and and other stew and other people's students 724 00:26:37,554 --> 00:26:40,515 is I our students never have to worry 725 00:26:40,515 --> 00:26:41,015 about 726 00:26:41,619 --> 00:26:43,779 whether or not we'll fight for them. I 727 00:26:43,779 --> 00:26:44,919 get a long 728 00:26:46,259 --> 00:26:48,019 I I I couldn't tell you how many 729 00:26:48,019 --> 00:26:49,000 times just today. 730 00:26:50,819 --> 00:26:53,000 I can show you in in the messages 731 00:26:53,059 --> 00:26:53,880 that we get. 732 00:26:55,140 --> 00:26:56,359 There's this one, 733 00:26:56,734 --> 00:26:58,734 really odd. It's too bright. But this one 734 00:26:58,734 --> 00:26:59,475 right here, 735 00:27:00,414 --> 00:27:01,394 this is a 736 00:27:01,775 --> 00:27:04,255 a message from a a student who says, 737 00:27:04,255 --> 00:27:06,115 hey. I'm having issues with my sheriff, 738 00:27:06,494 --> 00:27:08,255 and we're walking them through it. How to 739 00:27:08,255 --> 00:27:09,775 how to deal with it and keep me 740 00:27:09,775 --> 00:27:11,640 updated. The next step is we we send 741 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:13,259 an angry letter from the attorneys. 742 00:27:14,279 --> 00:27:16,680 But, yeah, that that is the the position 743 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:18,920 that Guns for Everyone has taken is you 744 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,180 you don't need to do the eight hours 745 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:23,960 after July 1. You already you already did 746 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:24,700 four hours. 747 00:27:25,815 --> 00:27:26,315 We're 748 00:27:26,855 --> 00:27:29,274 we're and we're willing to fight it, 749 00:27:29,974 --> 00:27:31,914 because that's that's what the law 750 00:27:33,014 --> 00:27:35,095 says. That's what the law says. There's there's 751 00:27:35,095 --> 00:27:35,595 no 752 00:27:36,534 --> 00:27:39,755 there's no no confusing part on our end, 753 00:27:40,214 --> 00:27:40,950 for that, 754 00:27:41,429 --> 00:27:44,710 for that. So that is 100% 755 00:27:44,710 --> 00:27:47,029 the the position, and that's 100% the way, 756 00:27:47,190 --> 00:27:49,109 the way we're moving forward with that stuff. 757 00:27:49,109 --> 00:27:50,970 We're getting a little bit from the competitions 758 00:27:51,029 --> 00:27:52,230 too. A lot of people are like, what 759 00:27:52,230 --> 00:27:54,230 do you mean your competition's qualified? Yeah. We're 760 00:27:54,230 --> 00:27:56,974 five one c three. We've been holding competitions 761 00:27:57,355 --> 00:27:58,654 since pre COVID. 762 00:28:00,075 --> 00:28:02,394 We we have organized competitions, and and a 763 00:28:02,394 --> 00:28:03,914 lot of people don't like that either. But 764 00:28:03,914 --> 00:28:05,055 that's been the law 765 00:28:05,674 --> 00:28:06,815 Right. Forever. 766 00:28:07,355 --> 00:28:09,535 That's that's been in the law for forever. 767 00:28:09,755 --> 00:28:11,849 That's nothing new. That that's not a new 768 00:28:11,849 --> 00:28:15,450 thing. Obviously, we go ahead. Sorry. I I 769 00:28:15,450 --> 00:28:17,369 cut you off. I apologize. No. You're good. 770 00:28:17,529 --> 00:28:19,070 No. I sit on the board of directors 771 00:28:19,130 --> 00:28:20,970 of a of a private gun club, and 772 00:28:20,970 --> 00:28:23,595 I run the monthly defensive pistol as well. 773 00:28:23,835 --> 00:28:26,394 And we decided that as a board that 774 00:28:26,394 --> 00:28:29,115 we are not getting involved in that part 775 00:28:29,115 --> 00:28:31,115 whatsoever because we just don't have a way 776 00:28:31,115 --> 00:28:31,615 to 777 00:28:32,474 --> 00:28:34,095 to regulate it to, 778 00:28:35,115 --> 00:28:37,410 keep track of it on the administrative side. 779 00:28:37,410 --> 00:28:39,809 So as a non for profit gun club, 780 00:28:39,809 --> 00:28:40,309 we 781 00:28:40,769 --> 00:28:42,769 decided as a board not to be involved 782 00:28:42,769 --> 00:28:43,670 in that part 783 00:28:44,049 --> 00:28:46,390 of the laws that's written and just 784 00:28:46,769 --> 00:28:49,009 we have instructor members I teach out of 785 00:28:49,009 --> 00:28:49,830 that club. 786 00:28:50,775 --> 00:28:51,515 In fact, 787 00:28:51,975 --> 00:28:52,475 and, 788 00:28:53,095 --> 00:28:56,215 though from the the board volunteer side, we 789 00:28:56,215 --> 00:28:57,835 decided just not to 790 00:28:58,215 --> 00:28:59,595 be involved and, 791 00:29:00,215 --> 00:29:00,875 you know, 792 00:29:01,414 --> 00:29:03,355 guide people towards actual 793 00:29:04,190 --> 00:29:04,690 certified 794 00:29:05,309 --> 00:29:06,130 and verified 795 00:29:06,430 --> 00:29:06,930 instructors. 796 00:29:07,390 --> 00:29:07,890 Yeah. 797 00:29:08,190 --> 00:29:10,829 So I wanna add something to the part 798 00:29:10,829 --> 00:29:11,809 part of the, 799 00:29:12,750 --> 00:29:14,509 the logic or or I guess you could 800 00:29:14,509 --> 00:29:17,744 say the the justification for for reading the 801 00:29:17,744 --> 00:29:20,465 law, Edgar, that that, if you wanna put 802 00:29:20,465 --> 00:29:21,445 that back up there, 803 00:29:21,904 --> 00:29:24,085 where it says, you know, when the certificate 804 00:29:24,144 --> 00:29:24,884 is issued, 805 00:29:25,345 --> 00:29:27,424 one year from when the certificate is issued. 806 00:29:27,424 --> 00:29:27,924 Yep. 807 00:29:28,225 --> 00:29:31,205 United States follows the philosophy of of, 808 00:29:32,460 --> 00:29:34,240 I can't remember what it's called right now, 809 00:29:34,700 --> 00:29:37,500 the opposite of positive law. Positive law states 810 00:29:37,660 --> 00:29:39,660 or the positive law philosophy is, like, it's 811 00:29:39,660 --> 00:29:42,000 only lawful because the law says it's lawful. 812 00:29:42,460 --> 00:29:45,440 Whereas the way The United States functions is 813 00:29:46,265 --> 00:29:48,424 the restrictions are written down, but if the 814 00:29:48,424 --> 00:29:50,744 restriction does not exist, then it is a 815 00:29:50,744 --> 00:29:52,904 lawful act. It's kinda like when you talk 816 00:29:52,904 --> 00:29:53,304 about, 817 00:29:53,865 --> 00:29:55,304 What would you say with the law? Duty 818 00:29:55,784 --> 00:29:58,044 oh, say that again? What was it called? 819 00:29:58,744 --> 00:29:59,759 Positive law, 820 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:03,519 versus natural law. There you go. Yeah. Positive 821 00:30:03,519 --> 00:30:04,259 law theory. 822 00:30:05,759 --> 00:30:07,920 In Colorado, there's no duty to inform a 823 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,259 law enforcement officer that you are carrying. 824 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:12,799 Why is that true? It's because it's not 825 00:30:12,799 --> 00:30:14,595 addressed in the law. It's not that there's 826 00:30:14,595 --> 00:30:16,115 a law that says you don't have to 827 00:30:16,115 --> 00:30:18,355 tell a cop if you're carrying. It's that 828 00:30:18,355 --> 00:30:20,214 the issue is not addressed in the law. 829 00:30:20,275 --> 00:30:22,355 And because it's not addressed, then there is 830 00:30:22,355 --> 00:30:23,815 no requirement to do it. 831 00:30:24,755 --> 00:30:25,894 So that's where that 832 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:26,980 interpretation 833 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:29,920 of that comes in, where we say we 834 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:31,680 take what the law says, and we don't 835 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,000 add anything to it. We just take what 836 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,240 it says, black and white. And if it 837 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:37,619 doesn't say differently, 838 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:39,140 then the 839 00:30:39,575 --> 00:30:41,734 then there is no restriction beyond what it 840 00:30:41,734 --> 00:30:43,575 what it says there in the law. So 841 00:30:43,575 --> 00:30:45,015 I hope that makes sense. I did a 842 00:30:45,015 --> 00:30:47,194 really shitty job of explaining that. 843 00:30:49,494 --> 00:30:49,994 I 844 00:30:50,295 --> 00:30:51,914 I I can I can see 845 00:30:52,454 --> 00:30:54,474 the points that you two are 846 00:30:55,159 --> 00:30:58,519 standing on in regard to this section about 847 00:30:58,519 --> 00:31:00,460 the eight hours and that's the eight hours? 848 00:31:00,759 --> 00:31:03,000 And it does not, I will acquiesce, that 849 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:04,299 it does not state 850 00:31:04,759 --> 00:31:06,299 when that eight hours 851 00:31:06,759 --> 00:31:07,579 has to 852 00:31:08,515 --> 00:31:09,015 start 853 00:31:09,795 --> 00:31:12,994 or end. Though the end date, that end 854 00:31:12,994 --> 00:31:15,234 date needs to be within the year. Mhmm. 855 00:31:15,634 --> 00:31:17,154 I just think and this is where the 856 00:31:17,154 --> 00:31:18,375 poking the bear part 857 00:31:18,674 --> 00:31:21,710 on my perspective comes in, is that if 858 00:31:21,710 --> 00:31:24,190 you guys are gonna go back three, five, 859 00:31:24,190 --> 00:31:26,289 ten years for your start date, 860 00:31:27,309 --> 00:31:29,470 that and and I would love to I 861 00:31:29,470 --> 00:31:30,349 would love to, 862 00:31:30,830 --> 00:31:31,330 watch 863 00:31:32,349 --> 00:31:32,849 the 864 00:31:33,605 --> 00:31:35,605 the and hopefully it doesn't get there. I'm 865 00:31:35,605 --> 00:31:38,005 I'm not hoping it does. Hopefully, it doesn't 866 00:31:38,005 --> 00:31:39,945 get to a a litigation 867 00:31:40,404 --> 00:31:40,904 of 868 00:31:41,445 --> 00:31:41,945 interpretation 869 00:31:43,045 --> 00:31:45,845 that, as you said, Isaac, there is nothing 870 00:31:45,845 --> 00:31:48,005 there in the law. And, Edgar, you've said 871 00:31:48,005 --> 00:31:50,569 as well when the start of that course 872 00:31:50,569 --> 00:31:53,049 actually is and what that means. I hope 873 00:31:53,049 --> 00:31:55,450 it never gets there. I just think that's 874 00:31:55,450 --> 00:31:56,889 where the poke and the bear on my 875 00:31:56,889 --> 00:32:00,250 part comes that I believe that someone's gonna 876 00:32:00,250 --> 00:32:02,490 look at this sooner or later. Yeah. And 877 00:32:02,490 --> 00:32:03,549 they're just gonna 878 00:32:04,174 --> 00:32:07,375 bring that proverbial hammer down. Yeah. And hopefully, 879 00:32:07,375 --> 00:32:08,894 you guys come out on the on the 880 00:32:08,894 --> 00:32:11,454 good end, not just for you, though for 881 00:32:11,454 --> 00:32:14,095 all instructors and the students because that's why 882 00:32:14,095 --> 00:32:15,934 we do it. We're not doing it. Yes. 883 00:32:15,934 --> 00:32:18,115 I so you guys work for a nonprofit. 884 00:32:18,174 --> 00:32:20,410 I work for a for profit. Seven Hills 885 00:32:20,410 --> 00:32:22,650 Security is a for profit. I don't I 886 00:32:22,650 --> 00:32:25,630 don't teach nonprofit. I do my volunteer time 887 00:32:25,690 --> 00:32:27,930 for the defensive pistol shoot I run, but 888 00:32:27,930 --> 00:32:30,349 the Seven Hills Security side is for profit. 889 00:32:30,809 --> 00:32:33,585 I don't want my students wasting money either. 890 00:32:33,585 --> 00:32:35,984 I don't want them coming in and spending 891 00:32:35,984 --> 00:32:38,144 money to for me to pass on my 892 00:32:38,144 --> 00:32:39,204 knowledge and experience 893 00:32:39,825 --> 00:32:41,765 for them to get things kicked back. 894 00:32:42,464 --> 00:32:44,484 So that's just where I'm coming from. 895 00:32:44,865 --> 00:32:47,640 And I I really hope it works out 896 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:49,559 for all of us because if it works 897 00:32:49,559 --> 00:32:51,339 out for all of us in the positive, 898 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:53,799 it that means better for the students. That 899 00:32:53,799 --> 00:32:55,400 means better for the people that are coming 900 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:56,059 to us 901 00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,420 for the information, the knowledge, the skills 902 00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:02,505 that they are looking for from all of 903 00:33:02,505 --> 00:33:03,404 us as 904 00:33:03,944 --> 00:33:04,444 instructors. 905 00:33:05,304 --> 00:33:07,404 Yeah. I I I hope it does happen. 906 00:33:07,944 --> 00:33:09,144 I 100% 907 00:33:09,144 --> 00:33:10,585 hope it happens because that's the only way 908 00:33:10,585 --> 00:33:13,404 we'll get clarity. Right? I I I wish 909 00:33:13,464 --> 00:33:13,964 instructors 910 00:33:15,839 --> 00:33:17,759 and and and this is why I appreciate 911 00:33:17,759 --> 00:33:18,259 you, 912 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,119 being here and and and actually having a 913 00:33:21,119 --> 00:33:22,419 conversation with us, 914 00:33:23,759 --> 00:33:27,039 because because we we we're very strong with 915 00:33:27,039 --> 00:33:28,880 with our words when we talk about other 916 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:30,579 instructors, very, very strong 917 00:33:30,904 --> 00:33:32,204 because a lot of instructors 918 00:33:32,585 --> 00:33:34,345 won't even do this, what you're doing right 919 00:33:34,345 --> 00:33:34,845 now. 920 00:33:35,144 --> 00:33:37,884 But, also, most instructors, instead of 921 00:33:38,664 --> 00:33:41,544 trying to to understand why we're doing what 922 00:33:41,544 --> 00:33:43,464 we're doing, they will go off on a 923 00:33:43,464 --> 00:33:45,839 signal chat, and they will talk shit on 924 00:33:45,839 --> 00:33:47,839 the signal chat. And then they will go 925 00:33:47,839 --> 00:33:50,880 tell their sheriff, hey. Edgar's doing this instead 926 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:52,720 of being on the side of freedom. Like, 927 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:54,160 we should be on the side of freedom. 928 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,019 We shouldn't be on the side of tyranny. 929 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:58,259 In fact, most a lot of us 930 00:33:59,025 --> 00:34:01,505 are instructors because not only is it self 931 00:34:01,505 --> 00:34:04,305 defense, but also the bat check crazy side. 932 00:34:04,305 --> 00:34:05,205 Right? The 933 00:34:05,585 --> 00:34:08,864 the seventeen seventy six side of of the 934 00:34:08,864 --> 00:34:09,364 guns. 935 00:34:10,144 --> 00:34:11,905 Now if if you're an instructor who loves 936 00:34:11,905 --> 00:34:13,824 tyranny, then then by all means, go go 937 00:34:13,824 --> 00:34:16,460 snitch on us. But I actually do want 938 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:18,059 litigation to happen. 939 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:19,480 I 100 940 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:21,260 this this happened to us when, 941 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:23,480 here in the state of Colorado and the 942 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:25,659 ATF was really hammering down on 943 00:34:26,039 --> 00:34:27,420 privately made firearms. 944 00:34:29,079 --> 00:34:29,659 The ATF 945 00:34:30,494 --> 00:34:32,735 got ahold of our organization and and said, 946 00:34:32,735 --> 00:34:34,335 hey. We we heard you that you guys 947 00:34:34,335 --> 00:34:37,075 are are hosting events and competitions 948 00:34:38,015 --> 00:34:40,434 where people who make guns privately, 949 00:34:40,974 --> 00:34:43,375 quote, unquote, ghost ghost guns, three d print 950 00:34:43,375 --> 00:34:45,055 their own guns, and they get to compete 951 00:34:45,055 --> 00:34:45,715 with them. 952 00:34:46,349 --> 00:34:47,789 We want to talk to you guys about 953 00:34:47,789 --> 00:34:50,910 this. And we openly said, hey. ATF is 954 00:34:50,910 --> 00:34:51,410 welcome 955 00:34:51,950 --> 00:34:53,550 to come in. And people are like, what 956 00:34:53,550 --> 00:34:55,470 do you mean the ATF is welcome? Yep. 957 00:34:55,470 --> 00:34:57,410 Because either you're going to arrest me, 958 00:34:57,965 --> 00:34:59,485 and we're gonna figure that shit out in 959 00:34:59,485 --> 00:35:01,485 court, or you're gonna not do anything, and 960 00:35:01,485 --> 00:35:03,405 then we can tell the whole world, hey. 961 00:35:03,405 --> 00:35:05,244 Look. The ATF was here, and they didn't 962 00:35:05,244 --> 00:35:07,264 do shit because they have nothing on us. 963 00:35:07,324 --> 00:35:09,824 And that's what we want. We we want 964 00:35:10,859 --> 00:35:13,179 sheriffs to understand they have nothing on us. 965 00:35:13,579 --> 00:35:16,219 We are very open about this, and we're 966 00:35:16,219 --> 00:35:17,199 very confident 967 00:35:17,819 --> 00:35:19,279 to an almost arrogant, 968 00:35:21,019 --> 00:35:21,920 almost. Almost. 969 00:35:25,055 --> 00:35:27,075 I didn't like the fucking unison there. 970 00:35:29,934 --> 00:35:32,114 See, you're getting it from both sides now. 971 00:35:33,454 --> 00:35:36,195 Yeah. To an to an almost arrogant level 972 00:35:36,255 --> 00:35:39,329 of or an arrogant level, we're so confident 973 00:35:39,389 --> 00:35:41,170 in our understanding of the law 974 00:35:41,869 --> 00:35:43,170 because we've been here. 975 00:35:43,869 --> 00:35:46,190 We we are, like, 17 and o with 976 00:35:46,190 --> 00:35:47,569 with against sheriffs. 977 00:35:48,190 --> 00:35:50,750 And most of them are small, tiny fights. 978 00:35:50,750 --> 00:35:52,690 Hey, sheriff. You're doing this wrong. 979 00:35:53,175 --> 00:35:54,954 And not a single time 980 00:35:55,735 --> 00:35:58,474 have we lost against the sheriffs. Not once. 981 00:35:58,535 --> 00:36:01,175 Not not a single time. The other Go 982 00:36:01,175 --> 00:36:02,855 ahead. I was gonna say the other part 983 00:36:02,855 --> 00:36:04,535 of pay poking the bear because there's really 984 00:36:04,535 --> 00:36:06,954 two avenues for poking the bear. One is 985 00:36:07,409 --> 00:36:09,730 arguing with the sheriffs and then ending up 986 00:36:09,730 --> 00:36:10,949 in a lawsuit, which 987 00:36:11,329 --> 00:36:13,089 I don't see any way you would lose 988 00:36:13,089 --> 00:36:15,750 this argument from our side in a lawsuit. 989 00:36:16,449 --> 00:36:19,349 The other side is the legislative side where 990 00:36:19,704 --> 00:36:22,824 the legislature says, let's close-up that hole now 991 00:36:22,824 --> 00:36:25,144 that it's by been identified and change the 992 00:36:25,144 --> 00:36:26,284 law. And 993 00:36:26,585 --> 00:36:27,085 we 994 00:36:27,944 --> 00:36:29,704 we don't really have a lot of sway 995 00:36:29,704 --> 00:36:31,804 in that because we're just one small organization. 996 00:36:32,585 --> 00:36:33,085 But 997 00:36:33,780 --> 00:36:37,300 the problem with gun laws in this state 998 00:36:37,300 --> 00:36:38,599 is that gun owners 999 00:36:38,900 --> 00:36:41,239 are not paying attention and are not engaged. 1000 00:36:42,019 --> 00:36:44,420 And we have almost 2,000,000 gun owners in 1001 00:36:44,420 --> 00:36:45,160 this state. 1002 00:36:45,785 --> 00:36:47,625 And I'm sure you know because, I mean, 1003 00:36:47,625 --> 00:36:49,785 I wasn't I didn't see you, but I'm 1004 00:36:49,785 --> 00:36:51,405 sure that you've shown up, 1005 00:36:52,425 --> 00:36:53,244 to testify 1006 00:36:53,864 --> 00:36:54,364 at 1007 00:36:54,825 --> 00:36:55,565 the Capitol 1008 00:36:56,025 --> 00:36:58,559 against some of these laws. I haven't been 1009 00:36:58,559 --> 00:37:00,800 to all of them. I don't think anybody's 1010 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,039 been to all of them. But when you 1011 00:37:03,039 --> 00:37:04,980 show up, you're looking around, and you're like, 1012 00:37:05,039 --> 00:37:06,559 this is it. This is all we could 1013 00:37:06,559 --> 00:37:08,880 get to show up today. We have 2,000,000 1014 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:10,320 gun owners in the state. We can't get 1015 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,414 400 people to show up to testify in 1016 00:37:13,414 --> 00:37:14,554 the legislative committee. 1017 00:37:15,255 --> 00:37:17,195 So part of the 1018 00:37:17,894 --> 00:37:20,614 poking the bear is to get gun owners 1019 00:37:20,614 --> 00:37:21,434 to pay attention, 1020 00:37:21,735 --> 00:37:22,954 that they have a responsibility 1021 00:37:23,414 --> 00:37:25,255 to stand up for their rights. And if 1022 00:37:25,255 --> 00:37:27,329 you rely on other people to do that 1023 00:37:27,329 --> 00:37:29,410 for you, you're gonna end up where we 1024 00:37:29,410 --> 00:37:31,010 are now, where we're this close to an 1025 00:37:31,010 --> 00:37:32,150 assault weapons ban. 1026 00:37:33,010 --> 00:37:35,329 We do have a licensing scheme in place 1027 00:37:35,329 --> 00:37:38,289 now for for, for assault weapons, and we 1028 00:37:38,289 --> 00:37:40,914 have these new restrictions and requirements. And there's 1029 00:37:40,914 --> 00:37:43,315 elements you know, we all we all appreciate 1030 00:37:43,315 --> 00:37:44,994 that people are getting out in training, but 1031 00:37:44,994 --> 00:37:46,674 there's elements of the class that we don't 1032 00:37:46,674 --> 00:37:49,474 think are responsible to teach that are required 1033 00:37:49,474 --> 00:37:50,775 now that we have to teach. 1034 00:37:51,074 --> 00:37:51,574 And 1035 00:37:52,194 --> 00:37:52,694 so 1036 00:37:52,994 --> 00:37:53,554 we want 1037 00:37:54,140 --> 00:37:55,820 we don't we're not afraid of poking the 1038 00:37:55,820 --> 00:37:56,320 bear, 1039 00:37:56,699 --> 00:37:58,619 but if gun owners are gonna sit on 1040 00:37:58,619 --> 00:37:59,920 the sidelines and complain 1041 00:38:00,619 --> 00:38:02,000 rather than get engaged, 1042 00:38:02,619 --> 00:38:04,940 then poking the bear is probably going to 1043 00:38:04,940 --> 00:38:06,079 end up costing 1044 00:38:06,460 --> 00:38:07,440 us more rights. 1045 00:38:07,900 --> 00:38:08,400 But 1046 00:38:08,864 --> 00:38:11,284 that's that's because the gun 1047 00:38:11,664 --> 00:38:14,065 gun community would rather sit down and and 1048 00:38:14,065 --> 00:38:16,545 wait for bad things to happen than to 1049 00:38:16,545 --> 00:38:18,304 be proactive and and to stop them from 1050 00:38:18,304 --> 00:38:19,664 happening in the first place. So, 1051 00:38:21,099 --> 00:38:21,920 a lot of instructors 1052 00:38:22,859 --> 00:38:24,940 did speak up against this law in the 1053 00:38:24,940 --> 00:38:27,179 first place, but there's only a handful of 1054 00:38:27,179 --> 00:38:29,339 instructors in the state compared to the total 1055 00:38:29,339 --> 00:38:29,839 population. 1056 00:38:30,219 --> 00:38:32,059 And we're not gonna stop this law if 1057 00:38:32,059 --> 00:38:33,900 if every instructor in the in the entire 1058 00:38:33,900 --> 00:38:35,980 state showed up. We're not gonna stop this. 1059 00:38:35,980 --> 00:38:36,639 We need 1060 00:38:37,364 --> 00:38:39,304 all of the people who carry a gun 1061 00:38:39,364 --> 00:38:40,184 to show up. 1062 00:38:41,284 --> 00:38:41,784 So 1063 00:38:42,644 --> 00:38:44,885 I understand the idea of poking the bear 1064 00:38:44,885 --> 00:38:47,144 and, like, let's not make things worse, 1065 00:38:48,164 --> 00:38:50,179 but I don't think that this is the 1066 00:38:50,179 --> 00:38:51,699 thing that makes it worse. I think the 1067 00:38:51,699 --> 00:38:53,299 thing that makes it worse is that gun 1068 00:38:53,299 --> 00:38:54,599 owners don't do anything 1069 00:38:55,059 --> 00:38:58,579 to stop it. Yeah. Yeah. To kinda piggyback 1070 00:38:58,579 --> 00:38:59,960 on that, it it's 1071 00:39:00,260 --> 00:39:01,239 it's people 1072 00:39:01,779 --> 00:39:04,125 on from our perspective anyways, and I think 1073 00:39:04,204 --> 00:39:05,965 Isaac and I are on the same page 1074 00:39:05,965 --> 00:39:06,704 with this. 1075 00:39:07,244 --> 00:39:10,304 It's when instructors are defending sheriffs 1076 00:39:11,324 --> 00:39:12,545 for whatever reason, 1077 00:39:13,244 --> 00:39:15,405 that is what's ultimately going to lead to 1078 00:39:15,405 --> 00:39:16,784 our to a demise. 1079 00:39:17,405 --> 00:39:18,304 Mostly because, 1080 00:39:19,699 --> 00:39:21,460 like, we're not fans of the word law 1081 00:39:21,460 --> 00:39:21,960 abiding. 1082 00:39:22,339 --> 00:39:23,000 I know 1083 00:39:23,619 --> 00:39:25,059 I know you're you used to be a 1084 00:39:25,059 --> 00:39:27,799 cop, and law abiding was was the thing. 1085 00:39:28,260 --> 00:39:30,019 Because law abiding gets to the point where 1086 00:39:30,019 --> 00:39:30,760 we're just 1087 00:39:31,619 --> 00:39:32,119 conceding. 1088 00:39:32,864 --> 00:39:34,625 Right? And I'm not saying go out, be 1089 00:39:34,625 --> 00:39:37,105 be fucking felons and murderers. Like, that's not 1090 00:39:37,105 --> 00:39:38,465 what I'm saying. What I what I'm saying 1091 00:39:38,465 --> 00:39:39,824 is you get to a point where, like, 1092 00:39:39,824 --> 00:39:41,425 where I'm a I'm a law abiding citizen. 1093 00:39:41,425 --> 00:39:42,644 I'm a law abiding citizen. 1094 00:39:42,945 --> 00:39:44,704 All that means at some point is that 1095 00:39:44,704 --> 00:39:46,510 any law you pass, I'm just gonna follow 1096 00:39:46,510 --> 00:39:47,510 100%, 1097 00:39:47,510 --> 00:39:49,349 never gonna push back on it because it 1098 00:39:49,349 --> 00:39:51,769 passed, and I'm just gonna become complacent. 1099 00:39:52,630 --> 00:39:53,130 And, 1100 00:39:54,630 --> 00:39:56,469 we we we can't get to this point 1101 00:39:56,469 --> 00:39:59,204 where we're not where we're not fighting back. 1102 00:40:00,164 --> 00:40:01,684 We can't get to the point where we're 1103 00:40:01,684 --> 00:40:02,184 not 1104 00:40:03,445 --> 00:40:06,344 poking the bear because we we have to 1105 00:40:06,405 --> 00:40:08,805 poke the bear. I I want to poke 1106 00:40:08,805 --> 00:40:10,885 the bear because that's the only way we 1107 00:40:10,885 --> 00:40:12,744 we know where we stand with the bear. 1108 00:40:14,210 --> 00:40:15,750 That that's the only way. 1109 00:40:17,250 --> 00:40:18,230 And this is, 1110 00:40:19,409 --> 00:40:21,569 I I appreciate Pink is being on, 1111 00:40:22,049 --> 00:40:23,589 to encourage us, 1112 00:40:24,130 --> 00:40:26,630 the the pair the the bear poking. 1113 00:40:27,105 --> 00:40:28,385 Mhmm. If you guys don't know who Rob 1114 00:40:28,385 --> 00:40:30,005 Pincus is, go go Google. 1115 00:40:31,425 --> 00:40:33,125 So I I don't 1116 00:40:33,985 --> 00:40:35,204 disagree with 1117 00:40:37,105 --> 00:40:38,945 some of the stuff you guys are saying. 1118 00:40:38,945 --> 00:40:40,224 When it comes to 1119 00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:42,640 I don't believe the fight is with the 1120 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:43,140 sheriff 1121 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:47,039 offices, departments per se. I believe the fight 1122 00:40:47,039 --> 00:40:48,180 is with the legislature. 1123 00:40:48,559 --> 00:40:50,579 We've done a good job during this discussion 1124 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:52,880 not getting political. This would be the one 1125 00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:55,199 political thing. And when I teach classes, politics 1126 00:40:55,199 --> 00:40:57,585 are not allowed, period. I say it at 1127 00:40:57,585 --> 00:40:59,585 the beginning of every class I teach. I'm 1128 00:40:59,585 --> 00:41:01,605 not there for politics. I'm there for 1129 00:41:01,985 --> 00:41:03,045 firearms instruction, 1130 00:41:03,344 --> 00:41:05,364 period. And I take that very seriously 1131 00:41:05,664 --> 00:41:07,664 because you lose half your class one way 1132 00:41:07,664 --> 00:41:09,025 or the other if you if you go 1133 00:41:09,025 --> 00:41:10,199 down that rabbit trail. 1134 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:12,460 Though when it comes to 1135 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:14,300 when it comes to 1136 00:41:14,839 --> 00:41:15,980 the political side, 1137 00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:18,619 until that math in the state of Colorado 1138 00:41:18,839 --> 00:41:19,339 changes, 1139 00:41:19,639 --> 00:41:21,339 these laws aren't gonna change. 1140 00:41:21,639 --> 00:41:24,359 And I agree with you absolutely 100% 1141 00:41:24,359 --> 00:41:25,099 get involved, 1142 00:41:25,485 --> 00:41:26,224 be out 1143 00:41:26,605 --> 00:41:28,865 there, and and speak your mind, 1144 00:41:29,485 --> 00:41:29,985 testify. 1145 00:41:30,525 --> 00:41:33,244 But until those numbers change in the state 1146 00:41:33,244 --> 00:41:33,744 capital, 1147 00:41:34,125 --> 00:41:36,385 we're gonna have a real hard time, 1148 00:41:37,805 --> 00:41:39,025 changing anything, 1149 00:41:39,349 --> 00:41:41,829 if not impossible time. I mean, we all 1150 00:41:41,829 --> 00:41:44,949 saw the videos of whoever was playing Tetris 1151 00:41:44,949 --> 00:41:45,769 on their phone. 1152 00:41:46,390 --> 00:41:49,449 Not nothing was going to change. Nothing. 1153 00:41:49,909 --> 00:41:50,409 Well, 1154 00:41:51,670 --> 00:41:52,170 I 1155 00:41:52,550 --> 00:41:54,250 I you could be right. 1156 00:41:54,945 --> 00:41:56,965 There's no way to know until it happens. 1157 00:41:57,025 --> 00:41:59,425 You could be right. Right. But Just just 1158 00:41:59,425 --> 00:42:01,204 as you guys could be as well. Yeah. 1159 00:42:01,425 --> 00:42:01,925 But 1160 00:42:02,465 --> 00:42:04,385 I I need a fact check on this. 1161 00:42:04,385 --> 00:42:06,545 Maybe Edgar can fact check me real time 1162 00:42:06,545 --> 00:42:09,090 while we're doing this. But in 2013, 1163 00:42:09,309 --> 00:42:12,590 I believe Colorado had a Democratic governor, Democratic 1164 00:42:12,590 --> 00:42:14,289 house, and a Democratic senate. 1165 00:42:14,989 --> 00:42:17,409 Yeah. I believe that was true in 2013. 1166 00:42:17,469 --> 00:42:17,969 Correct. 1167 00:42:18,829 --> 00:42:20,289 The 2013 1168 00:42:20,349 --> 00:42:20,849 legislature 1169 00:42:21,695 --> 00:42:24,034 passed, and the governor signed the magazine 1170 00:42:24,574 --> 00:42:25,635 restriction law. 1171 00:42:26,414 --> 00:42:28,835 And a very small group of gun owners 1172 00:42:29,295 --> 00:42:31,614 who had no affiliation with any large group, 1173 00:42:31,614 --> 00:42:32,994 they just, on their own, 1174 00:42:33,375 --> 00:42:36,034 organized a recall effort against three legislators 1175 00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:37,460 and successfully 1176 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:39,300 recalled two legislators. 1177 00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:41,380 And 1178 00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:42,659 what happened, 1179 00:42:43,199 --> 00:42:45,780 for seven years, there was no significant 1180 00:42:46,639 --> 00:42:49,119 threat, legally speaking, to our gun rights in 1181 00:42:49,119 --> 00:42:49,860 this state. 1182 00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:51,380 So 1183 00:42:52,394 --> 00:42:53,914 I don't think the math has to be 1184 00:42:53,914 --> 00:42:55,535 on our side. I think 1185 00:42:56,074 --> 00:42:56,574 active 1186 00:42:57,275 --> 00:42:57,775 people 1187 00:42:58,235 --> 00:42:59,614 need to be on our side. 1188 00:43:00,875 --> 00:43:01,375 And 1189 00:43:01,994 --> 00:43:03,515 what changed in 2021, 1190 00:43:03,515 --> 00:43:05,755 we had a mass shooting at, the grocery 1191 00:43:05,755 --> 00:43:06,655 store in Boulder, 1192 00:43:07,309 --> 00:43:10,590 and the legislature was ready and waiting for 1193 00:43:10,590 --> 00:43:11,730 this moment of opportunity 1194 00:43:12,510 --> 00:43:15,010 and also got zero resistance 1195 00:43:15,309 --> 00:43:17,469 from the gun community. I'm not talking about 1196 00:43:17,469 --> 00:43:19,469 RMGO. I'm sure they sent out a 100 1197 00:43:19,469 --> 00:43:21,650 emails a day about it. 1198 00:43:21,974 --> 00:43:24,695 But the actual gun community, the gun owning 1199 00:43:24,695 --> 00:43:25,195 community 1200 00:43:25,815 --> 00:43:27,035 didn't even know 1201 00:43:27,494 --> 00:43:28,875 that they repealed 1202 00:43:29,175 --> 00:43:31,914 or or, yeah, repealed the, 1203 00:43:34,460 --> 00:43:36,400 what's the word I'm looking for, Edgar? 1204 00:43:37,739 --> 00:43:38,239 Recalled? 1205 00:43:38,779 --> 00:43:40,799 No. No. No. In 2021, 1206 00:43:43,659 --> 00:43:45,599 I I can't believe I'm blanking on this. 1207 00:43:45,819 --> 00:43:47,920 They changed the law so that individual 1208 00:43:48,244 --> 00:43:50,324 cities, towns, and counties oh, preemption. They're here. 1209 00:43:50,324 --> 00:43:53,285 Preemption. Preemption. They they repealed preemption for concealed 1210 00:43:53,285 --> 00:43:56,184 carry in the state of Colorado, and I 1211 00:43:56,324 --> 00:43:58,804 I asked students for years about this, and 1212 00:43:58,804 --> 00:44:01,065 nobody even knew that it happened. Yeah. 1213 00:44:01,765 --> 00:44:02,265 So 1214 00:44:03,809 --> 00:44:05,809 we don't we might need the numbers to 1215 00:44:05,809 --> 00:44:06,789 change the direction 1216 00:44:07,329 --> 00:44:08,849 in the house and senate and in the 1217 00:44:08,849 --> 00:44:10,150 governor's seat, maybe, 1218 00:44:10,530 --> 00:44:12,869 but we are not gonna make anything happen 1219 00:44:13,010 --> 00:44:14,550 if we stay on the sidelines. 1220 00:44:15,375 --> 00:44:17,375 I agree with I agree with that part. 1221 00:44:17,375 --> 00:44:19,394 If if we just stay and do nothing, 1222 00:44:19,534 --> 00:44:21,534 and that's why I give instructors who are 1223 00:44:21,534 --> 00:44:22,195 out there 1224 00:44:22,494 --> 00:44:24,034 putting out good information, 1225 00:44:25,135 --> 00:44:26,195 and doing it 1226 00:44:26,815 --> 00:44:27,315 respectfully 1227 00:44:27,775 --> 00:44:29,869 and the way it should be done and 1228 00:44:29,869 --> 00:44:31,650 not just teaching a bunch of garbage, 1229 00:44:32,910 --> 00:44:34,769 that's, you know, that's 1230 00:44:35,789 --> 00:44:38,430 where the change can start to come from 1231 00:44:38,430 --> 00:44:40,930 is good instructors putting out good information, 1232 00:44:41,550 --> 00:44:42,369 getting a 1233 00:44:42,670 --> 00:44:44,210 a better educated public. 1234 00:44:44,724 --> 00:44:47,125 And in that, it will help build that 1235 00:44:47,125 --> 00:44:47,625 coalition 1236 00:44:48,644 --> 00:44:49,704 to help with 1237 00:44:50,005 --> 00:44:51,284 it it what it might not be a 1238 00:44:51,284 --> 00:44:53,364 numbers changes. You know, there's no way to 1239 00:44:53,364 --> 00:44:55,784 tell, Isaac. I agree with you there. But 1240 00:44:56,164 --> 00:44:58,650 get better educated people out there. 1241 00:44:59,130 --> 00:45:01,289 And there there is another there's a woman 1242 00:45:01,289 --> 00:45:03,210 here in Colorado. I've spoken with her a 1243 00:45:03,210 --> 00:45:03,949 few times. 1244 00:45:04,409 --> 00:45:07,389 I believe her company name is Lipstick Tactical. 1245 00:45:07,929 --> 00:45:09,869 She's trying to create a firearms, 1246 00:45:11,049 --> 00:45:11,549 instructor, 1247 00:45:12,594 --> 00:45:15,175 basically, board or, union. 1248 00:45:15,875 --> 00:45:16,375 And 1249 00:45:16,835 --> 00:45:18,614 I don't know where she is with that, 1250 00:45:18,755 --> 00:45:20,755 though they're all She gave she gave up 1251 00:45:20,755 --> 00:45:21,414 on that. 1252 00:45:22,434 --> 00:45:25,170 I've yeah. I I You think hurting cats 1253 00:45:25,170 --> 00:45:25,909 is hard. 1254 00:45:26,210 --> 00:45:29,010 Yeah. It is. It is because everyone the 1255 00:45:29,010 --> 00:45:30,369 the problem is as we all know, I 1256 00:45:30,369 --> 00:45:32,130 mean, look at what happened with this last 1257 00:45:32,130 --> 00:45:34,530 thing with all the with with all the 1258 00:45:34,530 --> 00:45:37,250 testimony is all the infighting. That stuff needs 1259 00:45:37,250 --> 00:45:39,535 to stop. That stuff needs to end. We 1260 00:45:39,535 --> 00:45:40,275 can disagree. 1261 00:45:40,934 --> 00:45:42,815 I you guys don't agree with some of 1262 00:45:42,815 --> 00:45:44,175 the stuff I've said, and I don't agree 1263 00:45:44,175 --> 00:45:46,015 with some of the stuff you've said. Doesn't 1264 00:45:46,015 --> 00:45:47,695 mean that we can't be civil about it. 1265 00:45:47,695 --> 00:45:50,015 Doesn't mean that we have to, you know, 1266 00:45:50,015 --> 00:45:52,195 call each other names and go down that 1267 00:45:53,269 --> 00:45:55,109 path because it just makes us all look 1268 00:45:55,109 --> 00:45:57,510 bad. That's kind of my intention. What I 1269 00:45:57,510 --> 00:45:58,809 what I wrote to Edgar, 1270 00:45:59,590 --> 00:46:02,010 when we were messaging back and forth 1271 00:46:02,309 --> 00:46:02,969 is simply 1272 00:46:03,429 --> 00:46:04,969 let's just stop the infighting. 1273 00:46:05,454 --> 00:46:07,694 I mean, that stuff is silly. It just 1274 00:46:07,694 --> 00:46:09,614 really isn't. It makes us look bad. It 1275 00:46:09,614 --> 00:46:12,174 makes the instructors look bad. It makes the 1276 00:46:12,174 --> 00:46:14,974 firearms industry look bad. And the people who 1277 00:46:14,974 --> 00:46:18,275 don't like firearms, it gives them the ammunition 1278 00:46:18,739 --> 00:46:20,819 to say, look. These guys can't even get 1279 00:46:20,819 --> 00:46:22,339 along. So why should we trust them with 1280 00:46:22,339 --> 00:46:22,839 firearms? 1281 00:46:23,299 --> 00:46:25,380 Yeah. Yeah. I I do wanna go back 1282 00:46:25,380 --> 00:46:27,619 just just a tad bit and and talk 1283 00:46:27,619 --> 00:46:30,019 about why we're fighting the sheriffs and why 1284 00:46:30,019 --> 00:46:31,639 it's important to fight the sheriffs. 1285 00:46:32,125 --> 00:46:34,684 Because the the legislature passed a a law, 1286 00:46:34,684 --> 00:46:37,085 and we we had our opportunity at at 1287 00:46:37,085 --> 00:46:39,425 the committee hearings and all that stuff to 1288 00:46:39,724 --> 00:46:40,625 to talk about, 1289 00:46:41,005 --> 00:46:43,005 or or fight it and and fight them 1290 00:46:43,005 --> 00:46:44,605 and send the emails. We had our time 1291 00:46:44,605 --> 00:46:45,345 with them. 1292 00:46:45,739 --> 00:46:47,920 Now when you go to the state law, 1293 00:46:48,219 --> 00:46:50,780 it says each chair shall verify instructors and 1294 00:46:50,780 --> 00:46:53,280 county who satisfies the requirement verification. 1295 00:46:54,059 --> 00:46:56,460 To become a verified instructor, an applicant must 1296 00:46:56,460 --> 00:46:57,679 hold a valid permit, 1297 00:46:58,625 --> 00:46:59,505 be a certified 1298 00:46:59,824 --> 00:47:01,984 be certified as a farm instructor by one 1299 00:47:01,984 --> 00:47:03,905 of the following entities that has, 1300 00:47:04,304 --> 00:47:06,484 that has instructors certified by, 1301 00:47:07,344 --> 00:47:10,484 a nationally recognized organization, Guns for Everyone National, 1302 00:47:11,099 --> 00:47:14,079 that customarily offers training, Guns for Everyone National. 1303 00:47:14,460 --> 00:47:17,360 And then three, an instructor verification issue pursuant 1304 00:47:17,420 --> 00:47:19,260 is valid for ten years. So that's it. 1305 00:47:19,260 --> 00:47:22,000 That that's all that we're required to have. 1306 00:47:22,539 --> 00:47:24,805 And then look at what Larimer County is 1307 00:47:24,805 --> 00:47:26,724 asking for. It's asking for a course, 1308 00:47:27,045 --> 00:47:28,425 copy of your course curriculum, 1309 00:47:29,285 --> 00:47:32,824 instructor certification of compliance with statutory instruction requirements, 1310 00:47:34,085 --> 00:47:36,965 copy of your firearms instructor training certificate. That 1311 00:47:36,965 --> 00:47:38,965 one's valid because that's that's what they asked 1312 00:47:38,965 --> 00:47:41,409 for. It's asking for your driver's license. 1313 00:47:41,869 --> 00:47:43,650 It's asking for payment, fuckers. 1314 00:47:45,069 --> 00:47:47,789 So of of the stuff that's here, the 1315 00:47:47,789 --> 00:47:49,389 only the only ones they should be asking 1316 00:47:49,389 --> 00:47:51,170 for is your concealed handgun permit 1317 00:47:51,724 --> 00:47:53,105 and then your certification 1318 00:47:53,485 --> 00:47:56,224 from an organization like Guns for Everyone National, 1319 00:47:57,324 --> 00:47:59,885 and payment, I guess. Everything else is not 1320 00:47:59,885 --> 00:48:02,525 required there. Who's requiring that? The sheriff is. 1321 00:48:02,525 --> 00:48:04,765 That is illegal for the sheriff to to 1322 00:48:04,765 --> 00:48:06,605 require. That's why the fight is now with 1323 00:48:06,605 --> 00:48:07,184 the sheriff 1324 00:48:07,739 --> 00:48:09,199 because they're they're adding 1325 00:48:09,739 --> 00:48:10,719 on top of, 1326 00:48:11,739 --> 00:48:13,199 on top of what they already, 1327 00:48:13,739 --> 00:48:14,639 is outlined 1328 00:48:15,019 --> 00:48:17,659 in the in the law. Yeah. So so 1329 00:48:17,659 --> 00:48:19,855 I had this fight with Pueblo County, and 1330 00:48:19,855 --> 00:48:22,094 I, you know, I I submitted my application 1331 00:48:22,094 --> 00:48:24,355 without the course curriculum. And they 1332 00:48:24,815 --> 00:48:26,414 they called me, and they're like, where where 1333 00:48:26,414 --> 00:48:28,015 is this? This is required. And I said, 1334 00:48:28,015 --> 00:48:29,375 no. It's not. Tell me in the law 1335 00:48:29,375 --> 00:48:31,295 where it's required. And then they came back 1336 00:48:31,295 --> 00:48:32,815 a couple days later, and they're like, you're 1337 00:48:32,815 --> 00:48:35,199 you're right. It's not required. Approved. And they 1338 00:48:35,199 --> 00:48:37,519 changed their website to say they want you 1339 00:48:37,519 --> 00:48:39,380 to submit it, but it is not required. 1340 00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:42,179 And that's the kind of conversation 1341 00:48:42,559 --> 00:48:45,039 that we're really looking for from every sheriff's 1342 00:48:45,039 --> 00:48:46,260 department, but, unfortunately, 1343 00:48:47,144 --> 00:48:50,045 it's not usually the way it goes. Right. 1344 00:48:50,265 --> 00:48:50,765 But 1345 00:48:52,025 --> 00:48:53,864 what's to stop the sheriff from just saying, 1346 00:48:53,864 --> 00:48:56,105 I don't like your course curriculum. Boom. You're 1347 00:48:56,105 --> 00:48:58,105 not verified. Now you can't do what you 1348 00:48:58,105 --> 00:48:59,784 plan to do. You can't teach in this 1349 00:48:59,784 --> 00:49:01,244 county because I don't agree 1350 00:49:01,579 --> 00:49:03,199 with your, course curriculum. 1351 00:49:04,300 --> 00:49:07,280 No. I I see that perspective, and I 1352 00:49:07,340 --> 00:49:09,260 I can't speak for the sheriff's office, and 1353 00:49:09,260 --> 00:49:09,840 I won't. 1354 00:49:10,460 --> 00:49:10,960 Though 1355 00:49:11,260 --> 00:49:13,099 that may be on their end and and 1356 00:49:13,099 --> 00:49:15,244 you may want to I know you had 1357 00:49:15,244 --> 00:49:17,485 the Weld County sheriff. You had discussion with 1358 00:49:17,485 --> 00:49:18,704 him a little while ago. 1359 00:49:19,244 --> 00:49:21,164 I would encourage you guys to have discussions 1360 00:49:21,164 --> 00:49:22,684 with all of them to see what where 1361 00:49:22,684 --> 00:49:23,344 the different 1362 00:49:23,724 --> 00:49:26,224 points of views are. I'd be very surprised 1363 00:49:26,285 --> 00:49:26,785 if, 1364 00:49:27,460 --> 00:49:29,300 they wouldn't come on and talk with you 1365 00:49:29,300 --> 00:49:31,380 regardless of the 64 counties that we have 1366 00:49:31,380 --> 00:49:32,199 here in Colorado. 1367 00:49:33,300 --> 00:49:35,219 That may be just simply, hey. What are 1368 00:49:35,219 --> 00:49:35,960 you teaching? 1369 00:49:36,820 --> 00:49:38,660 Where you know, what I did for that 1370 00:49:38,660 --> 00:49:40,119 is I copied and pasted. 1371 00:49:40,775 --> 00:49:42,235 I'm an NRA instructor. 1372 00:49:42,934 --> 00:49:44,715 I copied and pasted the NRA 1373 00:49:45,894 --> 00:49:47,655 outline, said here you go, this is what 1374 00:49:47,655 --> 00:49:49,575 I teach. You know, add the add the 1375 00:49:49,575 --> 00:49:51,414 new law stuff in there, on top of 1376 00:49:51,414 --> 00:49:52,555 the NRA stuff. 1377 00:49:53,015 --> 00:49:54,555 That's it. And they 1378 00:49:54,989 --> 00:49:55,730 they approved 1379 00:49:56,429 --> 00:49:57,409 it. So, 1380 00:49:57,789 --> 00:49:59,469 you know, is it in the law as 1381 00:49:59,469 --> 00:50:01,469 it's written? No. It's not. Could it be 1382 00:50:01,469 --> 00:50:03,809 a checks and balance? And is that possibly 1383 00:50:03,869 --> 00:50:05,409 why they're doing it? Possibly. 1384 00:50:06,190 --> 00:50:07,949 But again, I'm not going to try to 1385 00:50:07,949 --> 00:50:09,409 speak for a sheriff's 1386 00:50:09,844 --> 00:50:12,324 office or department. Yeah. We shouldn't try. The 1387 00:50:12,404 --> 00:50:14,565 but the point is is is that it's 1388 00:50:14,565 --> 00:50:17,525 it's a requirement beyond what the law states, 1389 00:50:17,525 --> 00:50:18,025 and, 1390 00:50:18,964 --> 00:50:20,184 they don't have the authority 1391 00:50:20,484 --> 00:50:21,224 to do that. 1392 00:50:22,489 --> 00:50:23,690 You know, if if they all put on 1393 00:50:23,690 --> 00:50:25,530 their preferred, we would like you to do 1394 00:50:25,530 --> 00:50:27,530 this. I bet you most instructors would do 1395 00:50:27,530 --> 00:50:29,049 it. I wouldn't do it, but I bet 1396 00:50:29,049 --> 00:50:30,030 you most would, 1397 00:50:30,969 --> 00:50:33,469 and they'd be accomplishing really the same thing. 1398 00:50:34,489 --> 00:50:36,284 They're they're they're staking 1399 00:50:36,585 --> 00:50:38,824 or they're claiming an authority that doesn't belong 1400 00:50:38,824 --> 00:50:41,144 to them when it comes to requesting that 1401 00:50:41,144 --> 00:50:42,764 or demanding that stuff. 1402 00:50:43,784 --> 00:50:46,184 And we can't have law enforcement writing their 1403 00:50:46,184 --> 00:50:47,485 own laws like that. 1404 00:50:47,859 --> 00:50:49,639 No. I mean a bad recipe. 1405 00:50:50,179 --> 00:50:52,739 I I agree there. Yeah. And one of 1406 00:50:52,739 --> 00:50:54,260 the things that that I wrote to Edgar 1407 00:50:54,260 --> 00:50:55,859 is I didn't agree with every law that 1408 00:50:55,859 --> 00:50:57,719 I enforce when I was in law enforcement. 1409 00:50:58,260 --> 00:51:00,280 Though I fully agree with you, Isaac. 1410 00:51:00,764 --> 00:51:02,364 Law enforcement is not the one who writes 1411 00:51:02,364 --> 00:51:04,684 the laws, period. Decently enforce it. That's it. 1412 00:51:04,684 --> 00:51:06,764 That's what they do. That's your job. Stay 1413 00:51:06,764 --> 00:51:07,585 in your wheelhouse 1414 00:51:07,885 --> 00:51:08,704 type of thing. 1415 00:51:09,244 --> 00:51:11,005 I wanna go back kinda to what you 1416 00:51:11,005 --> 00:51:13,324 said about politics in the class and something 1417 00:51:13,324 --> 00:51:15,505 that, Pink has put in the chat. 1418 00:51:16,539 --> 00:51:18,380 I don't talk politics in class when it 1419 00:51:18,380 --> 00:51:19,280 comes to parties, 1420 00:51:20,380 --> 00:51:22,960 because that's a waste of time. But 1421 00:51:23,260 --> 00:51:25,179 the discussion that I have in class when 1422 00:51:25,179 --> 00:51:26,239 it comes to politics 1423 00:51:26,859 --> 00:51:27,359 is 1424 00:51:27,900 --> 00:51:29,760 if you don't like the way the gun 1425 00:51:30,059 --> 00:51:31,199 laws are going, 1426 00:51:31,545 --> 00:51:32,045 then 1427 00:51:32,585 --> 00:51:34,605 you need to do something about it. 1428 00:51:34,905 --> 00:51:36,125 If you just complain 1429 00:51:36,664 --> 00:51:38,284 without doing anything, 1430 00:51:38,585 --> 00:51:40,425 I have no time to listen to you 1431 00:51:40,425 --> 00:51:40,925 complain. 1432 00:51:41,304 --> 00:51:42,684 Gun owners are 1433 00:51:42,984 --> 00:51:44,045 very disengaged 1434 00:51:44,505 --> 00:51:46,125 in this state, and 1435 00:51:47,099 --> 00:51:47,599 that's 1436 00:51:47,900 --> 00:51:49,659 you know, I'm gonna have that discussion in 1437 00:51:49,659 --> 00:51:50,940 the class, and I don't know what your 1438 00:51:50,940 --> 00:51:52,299 party is in the class, and I don't 1439 00:51:52,299 --> 00:51:54,219 care what your party is. If you claim 1440 00:51:54,219 --> 00:51:55,759 to care about gun rights, 1441 00:51:56,219 --> 00:51:57,519 or your gun rights, 1442 00:51:57,900 --> 00:52:00,460 then then I'm challenging you to to actually 1443 00:52:00,460 --> 00:52:03,375 do something or just be quiet. Don't don't 1444 00:52:03,375 --> 00:52:04,655 talk about it if you're not gonna do 1445 00:52:04,655 --> 00:52:05,715 anything about it. 1446 00:52:07,934 --> 00:52:10,094 No. I agree I agree with that. It 1447 00:52:10,094 --> 00:52:12,355 it really is the be be involved. 1448 00:52:12,735 --> 00:52:13,555 Mhmm. Be involved 1449 00:52:14,335 --> 00:52:15,315 to your ability 1450 00:52:15,650 --> 00:52:18,550 your ability, and everybody has their own ability. 1451 00:52:20,769 --> 00:52:21,269 And, 1452 00:52:22,449 --> 00:52:24,289 sorry. I'm reading and going back. Yeah. I 1453 00:52:24,289 --> 00:52:24,789 know. 1454 00:52:25,090 --> 00:52:27,510 Edgar is, like, triggering my ADD. 1455 00:52:29,724 --> 00:52:31,484 But be involved to the best of your 1456 00:52:31,484 --> 00:52:33,085 ability. As you said, you didn't see a 1457 00:52:33,085 --> 00:52:34,704 lot of people down to State house. 1458 00:52:35,164 --> 00:52:38,125 There there are many reasons why people didn't 1459 00:52:38,125 --> 00:52:38,784 go down. 1460 00:52:39,484 --> 00:52:41,244 But be involved to the best of your 1461 00:52:41,244 --> 00:52:43,650 ability to what your ability is. On my 1462 00:52:43,650 --> 00:52:45,409 end, like I said, I I teach on 1463 00:52:45,409 --> 00:52:46,869 the private side. I volunteer, 1464 00:52:47,809 --> 00:52:48,289 for, 1465 00:52:48,690 --> 00:52:50,530 one of the things that we did as 1466 00:52:50,530 --> 00:52:52,949 verified instructors for our gun club members 1467 00:52:53,250 --> 00:52:55,010 is we put on, I believe it was 1468 00:52:55,010 --> 00:52:56,230 a three hour symposium 1469 00:52:56,894 --> 00:52:58,815 of the new gun laws from the past 1470 00:52:58,815 --> 00:53:00,355 ten years to club members. 1471 00:53:01,295 --> 00:53:02,735 We filled the room and we had to 1472 00:53:02,735 --> 00:53:03,795 turn people away. 1473 00:53:04,175 --> 00:53:06,494 And, you know, we're doing what we can 1474 00:53:06,494 --> 00:53:08,574 on on our end in a very small 1475 00:53:08,574 --> 00:53:10,815 way on our end, and we're trying to 1476 00:53:10,815 --> 00:53:13,400 get that information out there and getting the 1477 00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:15,420 information out there as much as we possibly 1478 00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:18,599 can. It much like what you guys are 1479 00:53:18,599 --> 00:53:21,880 doing combined with this type of conversation where 1480 00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:22,700 we have people 1481 00:53:23,079 --> 00:53:24,760 involved, and I'll read that one in a 1482 00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:25,260 second. 1483 00:53:26,039 --> 00:53:29,175 We will, I mean, that's that just furthers 1484 00:53:29,714 --> 00:53:32,214 what we are trying to do, I believe, 1485 00:53:32,355 --> 00:53:33,815 as not only in instructors, 1486 00:53:34,675 --> 00:53:37,234 but people who actually care about the second 1487 00:53:37,234 --> 00:53:40,195 amendment and people who actually want to pass 1488 00:53:40,195 --> 00:53:43,219 on legitimate good information. And, Edgar, if you 1489 00:53:43,219 --> 00:53:44,659 could put that one back up, I'll stop 1490 00:53:44,659 --> 00:53:46,199 talking and read that one now. 1491 00:53:47,460 --> 00:53:50,579 Yeah. Pincus is is and this would be 1492 00:53:50,579 --> 00:53:51,559 more of a question, 1493 00:53:51,859 --> 00:53:53,780 I I think, for you, John, than than 1494 00:53:53,780 --> 00:53:55,059 it would. But I think it's just a 1495 00:53:55,059 --> 00:53:55,880 general question. 1496 00:53:56,974 --> 00:53:58,335 I ought to just send a link to 1497 00:53:58,335 --> 00:54:00,335 to Pincus and and have him jump on 1498 00:54:00,335 --> 00:54:01,074 really quick. 1499 00:54:03,054 --> 00:54:04,494 We don't have enough bald people in here 1500 00:54:04,494 --> 00:54:04,994 already. 1501 00:54:05,934 --> 00:54:06,434 Yeah. 1502 00:54:07,454 --> 00:54:09,054 So this one, it implies that you would 1503 00:54:09,054 --> 00:54:10,675 be okay. For those of you guys, 1504 00:54:11,730 --> 00:54:13,269 only listening and not watching, 1505 00:54:14,130 --> 00:54:16,289 Pincus asked the question, why are you okay 1506 00:54:16,289 --> 00:54:18,469 with them asking for info that isn't required? 1507 00:54:18,769 --> 00:54:20,710 And then a follow-up to that is 1508 00:54:21,170 --> 00:54:22,849 it implies that you would be okay with 1509 00:54:22,849 --> 00:54:24,150 them rejecting an instructor 1510 00:54:24,449 --> 00:54:26,230 application based on the curriculum. 1511 00:54:26,724 --> 00:54:28,344 Wouldn't that be the sheriff, 1512 00:54:29,045 --> 00:54:30,984 in quotations writing the law? 1513 00:54:31,925 --> 00:54:34,244 I'll I'll give you the frank blunt answer 1514 00:54:34,244 --> 00:54:36,085 answer. I never thought of that as a 1515 00:54:36,085 --> 00:54:38,324 big deal. I really didn't. I didn't think 1516 00:54:38,324 --> 00:54:39,444 of it as a big deal. If you 1517 00:54:39,444 --> 00:54:41,684 wanna see my curriculum, my curriculum's open to 1518 00:54:41,684 --> 00:54:43,280 the public. Here you go. 1519 00:54:43,660 --> 00:54:45,340 I didn't see it as a big deal 1520 00:54:45,340 --> 00:54:46,320 as it being 1521 00:54:46,860 --> 00:54:48,000 not in the law. 1522 00:54:48,380 --> 00:54:49,920 I wanna pass on information. 1523 00:54:50,539 --> 00:54:51,519 So if 1524 00:54:51,820 --> 00:54:53,980 if anyone wants to know what I teach, 1525 00:54:53,980 --> 00:54:55,500 I'll send you a copy what I teach, 1526 00:54:55,500 --> 00:54:57,039 here you go. The 1527 00:54:57,660 --> 00:54:59,355 the the PowerPoint slide, 1528 00:54:59,894 --> 00:55:01,974 that's not where you get information from me. 1529 00:55:01,974 --> 00:55:03,914 You get information from me on the range. 1530 00:55:04,215 --> 00:55:05,275 I show you 1531 00:55:05,655 --> 00:55:07,255 what I say in networking. I do a 1532 00:55:07,255 --> 00:55:09,015 lot of networking. I'm the one gun guy 1533 00:55:09,015 --> 00:55:11,575 up here in color Northern Colorado who goes 1534 00:55:11,575 --> 00:55:14,670 out to civilian networking events. And what I 1535 00:55:14,670 --> 00:55:16,429 say out there is anyone can pull the 1536 00:55:16,429 --> 00:55:18,210 trigger, I can teach you how to shoot. 1537 00:55:18,589 --> 00:55:20,210 So where you're gonna gain 1538 00:55:20,510 --> 00:55:23,230 knowledge from me is on the range where 1539 00:55:23,230 --> 00:55:26,210 I'm watching you and you tie together everything 1540 00:55:26,269 --> 00:55:28,349 and you put it in words yourself, not 1541 00:55:28,349 --> 00:55:31,105 me telling you how your shot grouping is 1542 00:55:31,105 --> 00:55:33,984 different, how you feel differently because I'm not 1543 00:55:33,984 --> 00:55:36,484 an instructor that says, oh, you're shooting better. 1544 00:55:36,625 --> 00:55:38,304 I spend the time with each student and 1545 00:55:38,304 --> 00:55:40,304 I say, okay. I want you to tell 1546 00:55:40,304 --> 00:55:42,464 me what was different from the beginning of 1547 00:55:42,464 --> 00:55:43,824 the class to the end of the class 1548 00:55:43,824 --> 00:55:46,109 in your words So in the future, you 1549 00:55:46,109 --> 00:55:48,049 can replicate it. So 1550 00:55:48,429 --> 00:55:49,650 that's my curriculum. 1551 00:55:50,030 --> 00:55:52,510 I wanna I wanna address this purely from 1552 00:55:52,510 --> 00:55:54,429 a practical point of view, not from a 1553 00:55:54,429 --> 00:55:56,750 philosophical point of view. Because I had this 1554 00:55:56,750 --> 00:55:59,230 exact conversation with the Pueblo County sheriff when 1555 00:55:59,230 --> 00:56:01,075 they said, where's your curriculum? And I said, 1556 00:56:01,075 --> 00:56:03,414 I'm not gonna send it, and here's why. 1557 00:56:03,555 --> 00:56:06,035 And the clerk, very nice lady. I've talked 1558 00:56:06,035 --> 00:56:07,894 to her several times before. She said, 1559 00:56:08,515 --> 00:56:10,355 okay. I get what you're saying, but, 1560 00:56:10,755 --> 00:56:12,434 you know, it would just be easier if 1561 00:56:12,434 --> 00:56:13,289 you sent this. 1562 00:56:14,090 --> 00:56:16,110 And it would be easier in the moment 1563 00:56:16,170 --> 00:56:17,550 to go ahead and send it. 1564 00:56:17,849 --> 00:56:20,570 But now I've opened the door to 64 1565 00:56:20,570 --> 00:56:22,190 different sheriffs calling me 1566 00:56:22,489 --> 00:56:24,809 and saying, this is the way we do 1567 00:56:24,809 --> 00:56:25,304 it, 1568 00:56:25,784 --> 00:56:27,065 and I just need you to do it 1569 00:56:27,065 --> 00:56:29,625 my way. And now I've got 64 different 1570 00:56:29,625 --> 00:56:30,844 requirements possibly. 1571 00:56:32,344 --> 00:56:34,824 And that is not easier. That that's not 1572 00:56:34,824 --> 00:56:36,684 a that's not a quick solution 1573 00:56:37,065 --> 00:56:38,505 when we open the door to let the 1574 00:56:38,505 --> 00:56:41,199 sheriff's decide they're gonna have this administrative 1575 00:56:41,659 --> 00:56:44,639 requirement or that, you know, training requirement. 1576 00:56:45,019 --> 00:56:46,859 And you have Larimer County, and they take 1577 00:56:46,859 --> 00:56:48,539 your curriculum, and they're like, yep. You're good 1578 00:56:48,539 --> 00:56:50,619 to go. And then Garfield County calls you 1579 00:56:50,619 --> 00:56:51,980 one day and says, hey. I I gotta 1580 00:56:51,980 --> 00:56:53,954 look at your curriculum. I don't accept that. 1581 00:56:54,114 --> 00:56:55,795 And your student is not gonna get a 1582 00:56:55,795 --> 00:56:57,635 a permit in my state because your curriculum 1583 00:56:57,635 --> 00:56:58,855 doesn't meet my standards. 1584 00:56:59,315 --> 00:57:01,715 I I agree I agree with that. I 1585 00:57:01,715 --> 00:57:02,215 do. 1586 00:57:02,515 --> 00:57:04,275 The issue that I that I have with 1587 00:57:04,275 --> 00:57:06,135 instructors just complying, 1588 00:57:06,860 --> 00:57:09,340 it's it's it's one of those things that 1589 00:57:09,500 --> 00:57:11,340 and we talk about this. We bitch about 1590 00:57:11,340 --> 00:57:13,599 this when we're fighting the capital. 1591 00:57:13,900 --> 00:57:15,900 When we're at the capital fighting, we we 1592 00:57:15,900 --> 00:57:16,400 say 1593 00:57:16,940 --> 00:57:18,940 every single time we say, oh, it it's 1594 00:57:18,940 --> 00:57:21,424 it's death by a thousand paper cuts. They 1595 00:57:21,545 --> 00:57:24,204 they're doing it very slowly. So when instructors 1596 00:57:24,425 --> 00:57:25,405 simply comply, 1597 00:57:25,864 --> 00:57:28,184 that is exactly what they're doing. They're helping 1598 00:57:28,184 --> 00:57:28,925 the legislation. 1599 00:57:29,625 --> 00:57:32,184 The legislators at at the Capitol kill the 1600 00:57:32,184 --> 00:57:32,844 two a 1601 00:57:33,539 --> 00:57:35,079 little by little by complying 1602 00:57:35,460 --> 00:57:37,140 for every little thing. I I get what 1603 00:57:37,140 --> 00:57:39,059 you're talking about. Like, I understand in the 1604 00:57:39,059 --> 00:57:40,500 moment, you're like, oh, it's not that big 1605 00:57:40,500 --> 00:57:42,980 of a deal. It's not even publicized. It's 1606 00:57:42,980 --> 00:57:44,900 just for them to to look at it 1607 00:57:44,900 --> 00:57:46,840 internally, but it's not a requirement, 1608 00:57:47,775 --> 00:57:49,534 And I will push back as much as 1609 00:57:49,534 --> 00:57:50,034 possible. 1610 00:57:50,414 --> 00:57:52,994 Yeah. We we get emails all the time, 1611 00:57:53,054 --> 00:57:55,214 not so much anymore, but definitely at the 1612 00:57:55,214 --> 00:57:55,714 beginning, 1613 00:57:57,135 --> 00:57:59,295 when we went from not being a a 1614 00:57:59,295 --> 00:58:00,355 well known organization 1615 00:58:00,655 --> 00:58:01,714 to very quickly 1616 00:58:02,570 --> 00:58:05,769 40,000 students, 50,000. We're over a 100,000 students 1617 00:58:05,769 --> 00:58:06,269 now. 1618 00:58:07,210 --> 00:58:09,050 And sheriffs would call up and be like, 1619 00:58:09,050 --> 00:58:10,489 hey. I think you should add this to 1620 00:58:10,489 --> 00:58:12,329 your certificate. You should do this to your 1621 00:58:12,329 --> 00:58:14,090 certificate. It'd be better for us if you 1622 00:58:14,090 --> 00:58:15,769 do this for for your certificate. I was 1623 00:58:15,769 --> 00:58:17,385 like, I'm not I'm not gonna do that 1624 00:58:17,704 --> 00:58:19,224 until you tell me where in the law 1625 00:58:19,224 --> 00:58:20,585 it says that I'm not gonna do that. 1626 00:58:20,585 --> 00:58:21,565 I can't do that. 1627 00:58:22,505 --> 00:58:24,125 So it it's it's 1628 00:58:24,824 --> 00:58:27,164 sometimes being the nice guy in the room 1629 00:58:27,625 --> 00:58:30,844 is what what kills the the second amendment. 1630 00:58:31,550 --> 00:58:33,789 I absolutely see both of your points, and 1631 00:58:33,789 --> 00:58:35,389 I would 100% 1632 00:58:35,389 --> 00:58:38,530 agree for a verified instructor to have to 1633 00:58:39,230 --> 00:58:41,409 comply to 64 different jurisdictions 1634 00:58:41,710 --> 00:58:42,769 within the state 1635 00:58:43,389 --> 00:58:43,889 is 1636 00:58:44,190 --> 00:58:46,449 not something that is realistic. 1637 00:58:47,704 --> 00:58:49,965 With that, I think that's why the reciprocity 1638 00:58:50,985 --> 00:58:53,405 from county to county with the, 1639 00:58:54,184 --> 00:58:56,105 the email that I mentioned earlier in this 1640 00:58:56,105 --> 00:58:58,184 conversation where Larimer County put out to the 1641 00:58:58,184 --> 00:58:59,244 verified instructors 1642 00:58:59,699 --> 00:59:00,900 right on your cert, 1643 00:59:01,219 --> 00:59:02,519 Larimer verified instructor. 1644 00:59:03,619 --> 00:59:05,219 So something So let me just add to 1645 00:59:05,219 --> 00:59:06,760 that. El Paso County 1646 00:59:07,139 --> 00:59:08,599 wanted us to include 1647 00:59:09,059 --> 00:59:11,000 the verified instructor number. 1648 00:59:11,300 --> 00:59:13,219 So now you have two different requirements on 1649 00:59:13,219 --> 00:59:14,679 these two front range counties. 1650 00:59:15,545 --> 00:59:17,704 So which one are you gonna do? Now 1651 00:59:17,704 --> 00:59:20,525 if if if El Paso County requires it 1652 00:59:20,585 --> 00:59:22,825 to have the instructor number, you did what 1653 00:59:22,825 --> 00:59:25,224 Larimer County said, and then somebody moves, you 1654 00:59:25,224 --> 00:59:26,985 know, in that one year between the time 1655 00:59:26,985 --> 00:59:28,505 they got the certificate and the time they 1656 00:59:28,505 --> 00:59:31,029 apply, moves down to El Paso County. That 1657 00:59:31,029 --> 00:59:33,269 certificate should be valid, but El Paso County 1658 00:59:33,269 --> 00:59:34,630 is not gonna accept it. And now that 1659 00:59:34,630 --> 00:59:36,949 affects the student because now they gotta go 1660 00:59:36,949 --> 00:59:38,869 track you down and tell you, hey. El 1661 00:59:38,869 --> 00:59:40,650 Paso County is not accepting this. 1662 00:59:41,349 --> 00:59:42,650 See and that's and 1663 00:59:43,029 --> 00:59:44,549 that would have been my second point of 1664 00:59:44,549 --> 00:59:46,489 what I was saying in regard to 1665 00:59:46,925 --> 00:59:48,945 when legislation is put out 1666 00:59:49,405 --> 00:59:52,465 where there aren't it's not spelled out, 1667 00:59:52,925 --> 00:59:55,344 now you come up with these different situations 1668 00:59:55,405 --> 00:59:56,385 and different scenarios, 1669 00:59:56,844 --> 01:00:00,465 64 different counties doing things 64 different ways. 1670 01:00:01,329 --> 01:00:03,190 We need, as instructors, 1671 01:00:04,690 --> 01:00:05,589 the guideline, 1672 01:00:06,530 --> 01:00:08,150 period. The guideline. 1673 01:00:08,530 --> 01:00:11,170 That's kinda my point is give us one 1674 01:00:11,170 --> 01:00:12,530 way to do it, show us what you 1675 01:00:12,530 --> 01:00:14,449 want. If you're gonna create this law, which 1676 01:00:14,449 --> 01:00:16,815 they've already done, show us show us what 1677 01:00:16,815 --> 01:00:18,355 you want. Tell us what you want. 1678 01:00:18,974 --> 01:00:20,974 But that's what happens when you have people 1679 01:00:20,974 --> 01:00:22,994 who are not familiar with the industry 1680 01:00:23,454 --> 01:00:25,554 writing laws about firearms. 1681 01:00:26,494 --> 01:00:28,335 I'll I'll take this one step further. As 1682 01:00:28,335 --> 01:00:31,300 I mentioned earlier, I trained security. I'm a 1683 01:00:31,300 --> 01:00:34,260 Denver guard card instructor. The Denver guard card 1684 01:00:34,260 --> 01:00:37,400 eight hour class instruction is different criteria than 1685 01:00:37,699 --> 01:00:39,380 the eight hour class that we have, and 1686 01:00:39,380 --> 01:00:41,380 I mess that up during a Facebook post 1687 01:00:41,380 --> 01:00:44,425 once because, the Denver guard card is five 1688 01:00:44,425 --> 01:00:46,045 hours classroom, three hours, 1689 01:00:47,704 --> 01:00:50,344 on the range. And I incorporated that into 1690 01:00:50,344 --> 01:00:52,585 what we're talking about the civilian side. And 1691 01:00:52,585 --> 01:00:55,144 it was a 100% my mistake because I 1692 01:00:55,144 --> 01:00:58,059 have so many laws of the 13 different 1693 01:00:58,059 --> 01:00:59,920 jurisdictions running through my head 1694 01:01:00,219 --> 01:01:03,839 that all have 13 different rules for security 1695 01:01:04,460 --> 01:01:04,960 licensing 1696 01:01:05,420 --> 01:01:06,480 on top of 1697 01:01:06,859 --> 01:01:08,159 this now new law. 1698 01:01:08,539 --> 01:01:10,619 So get us get us on the same 1699 01:01:10,619 --> 01:01:12,864 page people, please. You know? Well, yeah. I 1700 01:01:12,864 --> 01:01:14,545 mean, I think you figure that out. I 1701 01:01:14,545 --> 01:01:16,385 think you identified the point, which is that 1702 01:01:16,385 --> 01:01:18,485 the laws are being written by retards 1703 01:01:18,864 --> 01:01:21,364 who don't understand the context or the the 1704 01:01:21,744 --> 01:01:22,325 the information. 1705 01:01:23,265 --> 01:01:25,829 They're just writing a law, and they have 1706 01:01:25,829 --> 01:01:27,829 no possible way that they could think through 1707 01:01:27,829 --> 01:01:28,489 this stuff. 1708 01:01:29,430 --> 01:01:31,590 This so but the law is written the 1709 01:01:31,590 --> 01:01:33,190 way the law is written, and that is 1710 01:01:33,190 --> 01:01:35,030 our guideline. We don't need guideline from the 1711 01:01:35,030 --> 01:01:37,690 sheriff. We have the guideline. The guideline sucks. 1712 01:01:37,829 --> 01:01:40,170 Correct. But we're not gonna do anything more 1713 01:01:40,535 --> 01:01:41,355 for the guideline. We well, 1714 01:01:42,535 --> 01:01:43,035 like, 1715 01:01:43,494 --> 01:01:44,635 this would make it easier. 1716 01:01:45,094 --> 01:01:47,335 No. That that's their job. That that's the 1717 01:01:47,335 --> 01:01:48,394 that's the legislature's 1718 01:01:48,695 --> 01:01:50,855 job is to write laws that can be 1719 01:01:50,855 --> 01:01:52,855 complied with and make sense or not write 1720 01:01:52,855 --> 01:01:54,535 laws at all, just quit their jobs and 1721 01:01:54,535 --> 01:01:55,515 stop being legislators, 1722 01:01:55,969 --> 01:01:57,089 which is what I would prefer. 1723 01:01:58,849 --> 01:01:59,589 But asking 1724 01:01:59,969 --> 01:02:00,789 for clarification 1725 01:02:01,409 --> 01:02:02,469 from the sheriff 1726 01:02:02,929 --> 01:02:05,010 is the wrong way to go because the 1727 01:02:05,010 --> 01:02:05,510 sheriff 1728 01:02:05,889 --> 01:02:07,750 doesn't have any authority. 1729 01:02:08,224 --> 01:02:10,545 The sheriff is required to follow what the 1730 01:02:10,545 --> 01:02:11,204 law says. 1731 01:02:11,585 --> 01:02:13,505 And so the way that we get to 1732 01:02:13,505 --> 01:02:15,025 the point where all the sheriffs are on 1733 01:02:15,025 --> 01:02:16,784 the same page is we stop asking the 1734 01:02:16,784 --> 01:02:18,565 sheriffs to answer these questions, 1735 01:02:19,025 --> 01:02:20,565 and we inform them 1736 01:02:20,880 --> 01:02:22,559 that if they're not gonna follow what the 1737 01:02:22,559 --> 01:02:24,400 law says, then they're gonna have a problem 1738 01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:25,139 with us, 1739 01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:26,739 and we're going to 1740 01:02:27,359 --> 01:02:28,099 fight them 1741 01:02:28,559 --> 01:02:29,059 legally 1742 01:02:29,519 --> 01:02:31,859 to get them to comply with the guideline 1743 01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:33,219 or the law. So, 1744 01:02:34,295 --> 01:02:36,454 because the sheriff's just kinda have this opinion 1745 01:02:36,454 --> 01:02:38,055 of, like, well, this is the way I 1746 01:02:38,055 --> 01:02:39,894 do it, and fuck that. That is not 1747 01:02:39,894 --> 01:02:41,655 the way it goes. Yeah. You do it 1748 01:02:41,655 --> 01:02:43,015 the way the law says. I don't get 1749 01:02:43,015 --> 01:02:44,695 to show up to court and say, hey, 1750 01:02:44,695 --> 01:02:46,555 judge. This is the way I do it. 1751 01:02:46,849 --> 01:02:48,610 You know? Like, I know it's against the 1752 01:02:48,610 --> 01:02:49,969 law to do this, but this is the 1753 01:02:49,969 --> 01:02:51,489 way I do it. That's not how it 1754 01:02:51,489 --> 01:02:51,989 works. 1755 01:02:53,969 --> 01:02:55,809 Yeah. And and and it it it can't 1756 01:02:55,809 --> 01:02:58,070 it can't be that way. It it is 1757 01:02:58,289 --> 01:02:59,349 it is detrimental 1758 01:03:00,835 --> 01:03:03,655 to to the second amendment. It's detrimental just 1759 01:03:03,715 --> 01:03:04,934 freedom in general. 1760 01:03:06,195 --> 01:03:08,195 Because because I promise you, if Larimer County 1761 01:03:08,195 --> 01:03:09,015 had a Democratic, 1762 01:03:10,195 --> 01:03:10,695 sheriff, 1763 01:03:10,994 --> 01:03:12,215 holy shit. 1764 01:03:14,339 --> 01:03:17,139 If if Larimer County had a a a 1765 01:03:17,139 --> 01:03:18,279 Democrat sheriff, 1766 01:03:19,380 --> 01:03:19,880 everybody 1767 01:03:20,739 --> 01:03:21,239 that's 1768 01:03:21,779 --> 01:03:23,239 second amendment friendly 1769 01:03:23,859 --> 01:03:25,159 would be on that doorstep, 1770 01:03:26,664 --> 01:03:28,424 wanting their head. But because he has an 1771 01:03:28,424 --> 01:03:29,784 arm behind it, oh, it's not that big 1772 01:03:29,784 --> 01:03:31,545 of a deal. It it's alright. He's our 1773 01:03:31,545 --> 01:03:33,244 buddy. He's our he's our friend. 1774 01:03:33,545 --> 01:03:34,764 We're gonna play nice. 1775 01:03:35,144 --> 01:03:37,065 And we we we talked about this in 1776 01:03:37,065 --> 01:03:37,724 a podcast, 1777 01:03:38,344 --> 01:03:41,539 previously is that we we become so 1778 01:03:42,739 --> 01:03:45,380 our interest in the second amendment has become 1779 01:03:45,380 --> 01:03:45,880 financial, 1780 01:03:46,820 --> 01:03:48,199 not freedom based. 1781 01:03:48,900 --> 01:03:50,579 It's awesome to make money because I have 1782 01:03:50,579 --> 01:03:52,340 to pay rent and pay the pay the 1783 01:03:52,340 --> 01:03:54,605 phone bill and feed the kids and and 1784 01:03:54,605 --> 01:03:56,364 and all that stuff. Right? That that's super 1785 01:03:56,364 --> 01:03:57,264 awesome. But 1786 01:03:57,724 --> 01:03:59,964 at some point in the society, we put 1787 01:03:59,964 --> 01:04:03,025 money here way up top and then freedom 1788 01:04:03,085 --> 01:04:05,244 somewhere in in the fourth. So, like, if 1789 01:04:05,244 --> 01:04:07,565 freedom goes away, it's not that big of 1790 01:04:07,565 --> 01:04:08,144 a deal. 1791 01:04:08,610 --> 01:04:10,369 But going back to what Isaac says, yeah, 1792 01:04:10,369 --> 01:04:11,349 like, right now, 1793 01:04:11,650 --> 01:04:13,250 it's not that big of a deal. But 1794 01:04:13,250 --> 01:04:15,730 in the long run, you're gonna wish you 1795 01:04:15,730 --> 01:04:17,970 had some freedom. You're gonna wish we had 1796 01:04:17,970 --> 01:04:18,950 the second amendment. 1797 01:04:19,730 --> 01:04:20,230 And 1798 01:04:20,545 --> 01:04:23,025 from from our perspective is the the more 1799 01:04:23,025 --> 01:04:25,025 we allow the sheriffs to do whatever they 1800 01:04:25,025 --> 01:04:25,525 want 1801 01:04:25,985 --> 01:04:28,385 just because it is easier, the the less 1802 01:04:28,385 --> 01:04:30,164 freedom we're going to have. 1803 01:04:30,465 --> 01:04:32,244 I wish every sheriff 1804 01:04:32,799 --> 01:04:34,480 stood at the committee hearings and said, you 1805 01:04:34,480 --> 01:04:36,319 know what? Go ahead. Pass pass this law. 1806 01:04:36,319 --> 01:04:37,859 We're not going to enforce it. 1807 01:04:38,559 --> 01:04:40,179 Pass this law. Go ahead. 1808 01:04:40,480 --> 01:04:42,159 Have at it. High five. We're we're just 1809 01:04:42,159 --> 01:04:43,219 not gonna do this. 1810 01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:46,099 Even if it was just in solidarity, 1811 01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:48,079 even if it's just blowing smoke up our 1812 01:04:48,079 --> 01:04:50,295 asses, because that's usually what they do. But 1813 01:04:50,295 --> 01:04:52,295 none of them. In fact, with the assault 1814 01:04:52,295 --> 01:04:54,135 weapons ban that they just passed, they said, 1815 01:04:54,135 --> 01:04:55,994 no. We're going to enforce it. 1816 01:04:56,614 --> 01:04:58,135 We we don't like it, but we're going 1817 01:04:58,135 --> 01:04:59,034 to enforce it. 1818 01:05:00,534 --> 01:05:02,375 And and I understand that that's that's not 1819 01:05:02,375 --> 01:05:04,269 the way we we win 100%. I understand 1820 01:05:04,269 --> 01:05:05,970 that that's controversial 1821 01:05:06,349 --> 01:05:07,730 on on on its own, 1822 01:05:08,349 --> 01:05:10,450 to have a sheriff not enforce it, but, 1823 01:05:11,070 --> 01:05:12,930 like, I wish they were on our side. 1824 01:05:14,349 --> 01:05:16,349 The the law says they can't be more 1825 01:05:16,349 --> 01:05:18,190 restrictive, but the law doesn't say they can't 1826 01:05:18,190 --> 01:05:19,090 be more lenient. 1827 01:05:20,344 --> 01:05:22,264 So it doesn't prohibit them from being more 1828 01:05:22,264 --> 01:05:24,424 lenient. It just simply says they cannot add 1829 01:05:24,424 --> 01:05:27,085 restrictions beyond what's already in part two. 1830 01:05:27,545 --> 01:05:28,284 Yeah. Actually, 1831 01:05:29,065 --> 01:05:31,625 the law was changed to specifically spell out 1832 01:05:31,625 --> 01:05:33,385 that they cannot be more lenient. But if 1833 01:05:33,385 --> 01:05:35,710 they were pro freedom sheriffs and they did 1834 01:05:35,710 --> 01:05:36,690 tell the legislature 1835 01:05:37,309 --> 01:05:39,489 that they weren't going to enforce the law, 1836 01:05:40,670 --> 01:05:42,849 I'd I'd fill up their campaign donation. 1837 01:05:43,309 --> 01:05:43,809 Like, 1838 01:05:44,110 --> 01:05:45,869 I would I would support that. These pro 1839 01:05:45,869 --> 01:05:48,110 freedom sheriffs get away with saying I'm pro 1840 01:05:48,110 --> 01:05:50,130 freedom and then turn around and, 1841 01:05:50,614 --> 01:05:53,114 you know, act differently. And I don't mean, 1842 01:05:53,174 --> 01:05:56,135 like, Weld County sheriff, sheriff Reams doesn't charge 1843 01:05:56,135 --> 01:05:56,875 for the permit. 1844 01:05:57,574 --> 01:05:58,635 That's pro freedom. 1845 01:05:59,094 --> 01:06:01,034 You know, within within the ability 1846 01:06:01,335 --> 01:06:03,514 that he has to take away the financial 1847 01:06:03,574 --> 01:06:06,059 barrier to carrying a gun, he does it, 1848 01:06:06,140 --> 01:06:07,039 and that's good for 1849 01:06:07,500 --> 01:06:08,239 him. But, 1850 01:06:09,260 --> 01:06:11,180 if he's requiring that you get take a 1851 01:06:11,180 --> 01:06:13,340 class from a verified instructor within his county, 1852 01:06:13,340 --> 01:06:14,960 then he's not pro freedom. 1853 01:06:15,340 --> 01:06:17,180 So we need we need to hold them 1854 01:06:17,180 --> 01:06:19,199 to their word, especially the Republican, 1855 01:06:20,644 --> 01:06:22,804 supposedly pro freedom ones, and not let any 1856 01:06:22,804 --> 01:06:23,864 of this stuff slide, 1857 01:06:25,125 --> 01:06:26,264 and hold them accountable 1858 01:06:26,644 --> 01:06:28,664 for for these extra restrictions. 1859 01:06:31,284 --> 01:06:33,764 While going back to, something that one of 1860 01:06:33,764 --> 01:06:35,820 you I can't remember who made the made 1861 01:06:35,820 --> 01:06:37,200 the statement, which is true. 1862 01:06:38,460 --> 01:06:41,039 The sheriff's offices and departments are not 1863 01:06:41,820 --> 01:06:42,559 the lawmakers. 1864 01:06:43,739 --> 01:06:45,280 So either enforcing 1865 01:06:46,059 --> 01:06:48,380 a law or not enforcing a law that 1866 01:06:48,380 --> 01:06:50,144 is on the books is the same thing. 1867 01:06:50,545 --> 01:06:53,125 That makes them the de facto law writer, 1868 01:06:53,505 --> 01:06:55,925 and that's not the job of law enforcement. 1869 01:06:56,625 --> 01:06:58,804 As I said, there were there were laws 1870 01:06:58,864 --> 01:07:01,425 many times that I did not want to 1871 01:07:01,425 --> 01:07:03,184 enforce, but it was my job to do 1872 01:07:03,184 --> 01:07:03,630 so. 1873 01:07:04,429 --> 01:07:06,190 There there are sheriffs that may or may 1874 01:07:06,190 --> 01:07:08,130 not agree with the laws on the books, 1875 01:07:08,429 --> 01:07:10,529 and to them it shouldn't matter. 1876 01:07:10,989 --> 01:07:13,069 That's the law on the book, and you 1877 01:07:13,069 --> 01:07:14,769 enforce it. And then 1878 01:07:15,389 --> 01:07:17,569 behind the scenes or other organizations 1879 01:07:17,949 --> 01:07:18,849 such as yourself 1880 01:07:19,275 --> 01:07:20,014 or other 1881 01:07:20,875 --> 01:07:23,835 entities that do fight this stuff, it's in 1882 01:07:23,835 --> 01:07:24,494 their hands. 1883 01:07:24,954 --> 01:07:27,835 And then until that law changes. Yeah. Yeah. 1884 01:07:27,835 --> 01:07:29,295 I I totally agree 1885 01:07:29,914 --> 01:07:32,230 from a practical point of view. The I 1886 01:07:32,230 --> 01:07:34,070 think the reason why we bring this up 1887 01:07:34,070 --> 01:07:37,450 is because the sheriffs have, like, sheriff Roybal 1888 01:07:37,510 --> 01:07:39,829 and sheriff Elder. And to some extent, I 1889 01:07:39,829 --> 01:07:41,349 think some of the other sheriffs like sheriff 1890 01:07:41,349 --> 01:07:41,849 Reams 1891 01:07:42,710 --> 01:07:45,110 talk about how they're not going to enforce 1892 01:07:45,110 --> 01:07:47,154 certain laws within their county. With the magazine 1893 01:07:47,154 --> 01:07:47,654 law, 1894 01:07:48,674 --> 01:07:50,994 back in 2013 when it was passed, almost 1895 01:07:50,994 --> 01:07:53,074 all the sheriff said, we're not going to 1896 01:07:53,074 --> 01:07:54,134 enforce that law. 1897 01:07:54,434 --> 01:07:57,074 And so they get away with saying it, 1898 01:07:57,074 --> 01:07:59,789 and then the citizen believes that it's true, 1899 01:07:59,789 --> 01:08:01,969 and then they turn around and then create 1900 01:08:02,030 --> 01:08:02,530 new 1901 01:08:02,989 --> 01:08:03,489 restrictions, 1902 01:08:04,989 --> 01:08:06,590 on on the laws that are already on 1903 01:08:06,590 --> 01:08:08,510 the book. So if you're gonna go around 1904 01:08:08,510 --> 01:08:10,690 saying that we're not gonna enforce this law, 1905 01:08:10,829 --> 01:08:11,969 then then 1906 01:08:12,574 --> 01:08:14,414 why are you enforcing any of these anti 1907 01:08:14,414 --> 01:08:15,315 freedom laws? 1908 01:08:15,855 --> 01:08:17,375 So don't say it if you're not gonna 1909 01:08:17,375 --> 01:08:19,454 do it. Don't don't go around running on 1910 01:08:19,454 --> 01:08:21,614 this platform of being pro freedom if you're 1911 01:08:21,614 --> 01:08:22,675 not going to actually 1912 01:08:23,054 --> 01:08:25,050 give the middle finger to the legislature and 1913 01:08:25,050 --> 01:08:26,969 stand up for your citizens and say, this 1914 01:08:26,969 --> 01:08:29,529 is not happening in my county. I agree. 1915 01:08:29,529 --> 01:08:31,689 I agree. I wanna clear up something really 1916 01:08:31,689 --> 01:08:34,329 quick, that Isaac and I interacted with. The 1917 01:08:34,329 --> 01:08:34,829 sheriff's 1918 01:08:35,210 --> 01:08:36,109 cannot be, 1919 01:08:37,050 --> 01:08:38,349 they can't be more restrictive. 1920 01:08:38,649 --> 01:08:40,109 They can be more lenient. 1921 01:08:40,875 --> 01:08:43,675 Local governments, when creating new gun laws, cannot 1922 01:08:43,994 --> 01:08:45,755 Yeah. Okay. You got me. I should have 1923 01:08:45,755 --> 01:08:47,914 known better than to go head to head 1924 01:08:47,914 --> 01:08:48,654 with you. 1925 01:08:49,835 --> 01:08:50,335 So 1926 01:08:50,795 --> 01:08:53,375 the jurors yeah. Cities, counties, municipalities, 1927 01:08:53,755 --> 01:08:56,015 when they're writing gun laws, they cannot be 1928 01:08:56,579 --> 01:08:58,659 more lenient than what the law already has. 1929 01:08:58,659 --> 01:09:02,039 It's just more restrictive. Yeah. The sheriffs themselves, 1930 01:09:02,100 --> 01:09:05,159 because they don't write laws when issuing permits, 1931 01:09:05,220 --> 01:09:06,039 they're not 1932 01:09:06,659 --> 01:09:08,739 bounded by being they they don't have to 1933 01:09:08,739 --> 01:09:09,239 be, 1934 01:09:10,125 --> 01:09:11,965 they can be, I'm sorry, they can be 1935 01:09:11,965 --> 01:09:14,524 more lenient. There's nothing in here that says 1936 01:09:14,524 --> 01:09:17,264 they cannot be more lenient. In fact, 1937 01:09:17,724 --> 01:09:20,125 under the old laws, a lot of sharers 1938 01:09:20,125 --> 01:09:20,864 would accept 1939 01:09:21,724 --> 01:09:24,125 Hunter safety. Hunter safety permits, which was not 1940 01:09:24,125 --> 01:09:25,020 part of the law. 1941 01:09:25,979 --> 01:09:27,979 In fact, didn't even meet the the legal 1942 01:09:27,979 --> 01:09:29,659 requirements under the old law, and a lot 1943 01:09:29,659 --> 01:09:31,340 of shares like, I don't care. The hunter 1944 01:09:31,340 --> 01:09:33,020 safety is good enough for us. That was 1945 01:09:33,020 --> 01:09:34,159 them being more lenient. 1946 01:09:35,579 --> 01:09:37,260 So they can't be more lenient. They cannot 1947 01:09:37,260 --> 01:09:38,939 be more restricted. But, anyway, sorry. I I 1948 01:09:38,939 --> 01:09:40,239 cut you off, John. 1949 01:09:40,945 --> 01:09:43,425 No. No. That's fine. It's it's hard not 1950 01:09:43,425 --> 01:09:45,765 to in this platform. Mhmm. So Yeah. 1951 01:09:48,864 --> 01:09:51,265 Is there anything else that you would like 1952 01:09:51,265 --> 01:09:52,739 to get off your chest? 1953 01:09:53,699 --> 01:09:54,199 Isaac 1954 01:09:54,579 --> 01:09:57,060 Isaac and I will still continue having a 1955 01:09:57,060 --> 01:09:59,220 conversation about other things, and you're welcome to 1956 01:09:59,220 --> 01:10:00,820 join us. But I I told you thirty 1957 01:10:00,820 --> 01:10:03,079 minutes, and I knew that was being ambitious. 1958 01:10:04,420 --> 01:10:06,854 Thirty minutes. We've taken an hour of your 1959 01:10:06,854 --> 01:10:08,135 time. I think this has been a good 1960 01:10:08,135 --> 01:10:10,175 conversation. The podcast is not ending for those 1961 01:10:10,175 --> 01:10:11,194 of you guys listening. 1962 01:10:11,974 --> 01:10:13,494 Isaac and I still have shit to talk 1963 01:10:13,494 --> 01:10:15,194 about. Like, the four rules suck. 1964 01:10:16,934 --> 01:10:19,094 So the rules absolutely suck. But if if 1965 01:10:19,094 --> 01:10:20,939 there's anything else, John, that that you wanted 1966 01:10:25,260 --> 01:10:25,760 go. 1967 01:10:26,380 --> 01:10:28,619 No. I I really appreciate your time. I 1968 01:10:28,619 --> 01:10:30,000 appreciate this conversation. 1969 01:10:30,699 --> 01:10:34,300 I do appreciate the adult, which seems lacking 1970 01:10:34,300 --> 01:10:36,984 in today's world where people can disagree about 1971 01:10:36,984 --> 01:10:40,364 things and still have an overall same understanding. 1972 01:10:40,824 --> 01:10:42,345 The fact that you guys are willing to 1973 01:10:42,345 --> 01:10:44,664 have me on with someone who says, hey. 1974 01:10:44,664 --> 01:10:46,524 Don't agree with how you're doing this. 1975 01:10:46,920 --> 01:10:49,400 And your response was perfect. Hey. At least 1976 01:10:49,400 --> 01:10:51,079 you have the gumption. I'll change your word 1977 01:10:51,079 --> 01:10:51,239 to, 1978 01:10:52,520 --> 01:10:53,560 to say that, 1979 01:10:54,199 --> 01:10:56,060 you don't agree as others 1980 01:10:56,600 --> 01:10:57,100 don't. 1981 01:10:57,400 --> 01:10:59,800 So I I truly appreciate your time. Feel 1982 01:10:59,800 --> 01:11:01,560 free. I'll do this again with you guys 1983 01:11:01,560 --> 01:11:02,564 whenever you want. 1984 01:11:03,524 --> 01:11:05,465 I I think that constructive 1985 01:11:05,844 --> 01:11:06,344 conversation 1986 01:11:06,965 --> 01:11:08,664 can only promote better 1987 01:11:09,284 --> 01:11:09,784 understanding 1988 01:11:10,324 --> 01:11:11,465 and and a better 1989 01:11:11,765 --> 01:11:12,265 firearms 1990 01:11:12,725 --> 01:11:15,925 community here in Colorado or wherever people may 1991 01:11:15,925 --> 01:11:17,545 be listening to this from. 1992 01:11:18,039 --> 01:11:20,840 Yeah. There that's this this thing called respectful 1993 01:11:20,840 --> 01:11:21,340 irreverence. 1994 01:11:22,119 --> 01:11:24,439 Pincus, who has been chiming in, throughout the 1995 01:11:24,439 --> 01:11:24,939 podcast, 1996 01:11:25,960 --> 01:11:26,539 a mentor 1997 01:11:27,000 --> 01:11:29,320 of mine and somebody who I appreciate being 1998 01:11:29,320 --> 01:11:31,534 in my life, although he can he can 1999 01:11:32,395 --> 01:11:35,114 rattle my my my feathers a little bit 2000 01:11:35,114 --> 01:11:37,595 sometimes. Or break your teeth. Break my teeth. 2001 01:11:37,595 --> 01:11:39,114 He did break one of my teeth. Like, 2002 01:11:39,114 --> 01:11:41,114 literally, it was fucking I kept it. He's 2003 01:11:41,114 --> 01:11:42,635 like, oh, fix it. I was like, nah. 2004 01:11:42,635 --> 01:11:44,715 That shit's fucking there forever to remind you 2005 01:11:44,715 --> 01:11:46,550 that you broke my tooth. We were teaching 2006 01:11:46,550 --> 01:11:47,850 in Mexico, and that's 2007 01:11:48,310 --> 01:11:49,989 where he broke it. In my own fucking 2008 01:11:49,989 --> 01:11:52,149 country, he's like, fuck you Mexican, and he 2009 01:11:52,149 --> 01:11:53,449 fucking broke my tooth. 2010 01:11:54,069 --> 01:11:56,890 But this idea of respectfully reverence is this. 2011 01:11:57,350 --> 01:11:58,949 I don't have to agree with you to 2012 01:11:58,949 --> 01:11:59,449 respect 2013 01:12:00,135 --> 01:12:02,295 where you're at in in the platform or 2014 01:12:02,295 --> 01:12:02,795 respect, 2015 01:12:03,895 --> 01:12:05,335 what we wanna do at the end of 2016 01:12:05,335 --> 01:12:07,574 the day, whether we agree or don't, is 2017 01:12:07,574 --> 01:12:10,295 understand where we're coming from. Because if I 2018 01:12:10,295 --> 01:12:12,295 understand where you're coming from, that gets us 2019 01:12:12,295 --> 01:12:14,635 a step closer to to really having 2020 01:12:14,949 --> 01:12:17,350 true dialogue and and change and and challenge 2021 01:12:17,350 --> 01:12:19,210 my information, challenge your information. 2022 01:12:19,590 --> 01:12:21,189 We do this with students too. At at 2023 01:12:21,189 --> 01:12:22,710 the end of every class, we have a 2024 01:12:22,710 --> 01:12:23,210 debrief, 2025 01:12:23,510 --> 01:12:26,069 and the students have to provide feedback with 2026 01:12:26,069 --> 01:12:28,034 the class right then and there. So let's 2027 01:12:28,034 --> 01:12:30,534 talk about our differences. Let's let's talk about, 2028 01:12:32,435 --> 01:12:34,195 what what you like, what you didn't like, 2029 01:12:34,195 --> 01:12:36,034 and and let's talk let's hold each other 2030 01:12:36,034 --> 01:12:37,555 accountable at the end of the day. Let 2031 01:12:37,635 --> 01:12:39,954 let's hold each other accountable. And I always 2032 01:12:39,954 --> 01:12:41,954 appreciate and and I meant to at least 2033 01:12:41,954 --> 01:12:43,015 you had the balls 2034 01:12:43,659 --> 01:12:45,840 to reach out to me directly instead 2035 01:12:46,140 --> 01:12:48,300 of going on that signal chat and and 2036 01:12:48,300 --> 01:12:49,979 saying it, you know, behind our back because 2037 01:12:49,979 --> 01:12:51,899 that's not constructive in any way, shape, or 2038 01:12:51,899 --> 01:12:52,399 form. 2039 01:12:52,859 --> 01:12:55,659 And and this proves to the humans that 2040 01:12:55,659 --> 01:12:56,960 humans can disagree 2041 01:12:57,994 --> 01:12:59,835 and and and still like each other and 2042 01:12:59,835 --> 01:13:01,835 still work with each other and and and 2043 01:13:01,835 --> 01:13:04,234 still have a a a level of respect 2044 01:13:04,234 --> 01:13:05,135 for each other. 2045 01:13:06,074 --> 01:13:08,094 So that that's why this is always important 2046 01:13:08,234 --> 01:13:10,474 for sure. Yeah. And I I wanna echo 2047 01:13:10,474 --> 01:13:11,914 that, everything he said, and, also, 2048 01:13:13,034 --> 01:13:14,529 not only thank you for your time, but 2049 01:13:14,529 --> 01:13:15,989 thank you for staying longer. 2050 01:13:16,529 --> 01:13:18,210 If we had stopped at thirty minutes, we 2051 01:13:18,210 --> 01:13:19,810 would have been right in the middle of 2052 01:13:19,810 --> 01:13:20,550 the conversation. 2053 01:13:21,649 --> 01:13:23,569 And I really appreciate you coming on, and 2054 01:13:23,569 --> 01:13:25,729 I'm looking forward to, more stuff in the 2055 01:13:25,729 --> 01:13:27,829 future. You're gonna hear from us soon, 2056 01:13:28,425 --> 01:13:30,585 about something else that we're hoping to get 2057 01:13:30,585 --> 01:13:32,425 some instructors on the front range on board 2058 01:13:32,425 --> 01:13:34,744 with and has nothing to do with any 2059 01:13:34,744 --> 01:13:35,404 of this 2060 01:13:35,784 --> 01:13:38,844 and shouldn't be controversial in any way. 2061 01:13:39,304 --> 01:13:41,784 But we're looking to organize some instructors to 2062 01:13:41,784 --> 01:13:42,604 start exploring 2063 01:13:43,199 --> 01:13:45,300 better mental health training in the classroom. 2064 01:13:46,079 --> 01:13:46,579 So 2065 01:13:46,960 --> 01:13:49,060 you'll you'll hear from us soon about that. 2066 01:13:49,279 --> 01:13:50,079 Well, that it's, 2067 01:13:50,960 --> 01:13:53,199 yeah, that's that's funny. I just I'm gonna 2068 01:13:53,199 --> 01:13:55,699 be starting up something with a neurodivergent 2069 01:13:56,479 --> 01:13:58,100 therapist in Boulder. 2070 01:13:58,845 --> 01:14:01,244 We we have our second meeting tomorrow, so 2071 01:14:01,244 --> 01:14:02,465 we definitely need to 2072 01:14:03,085 --> 01:14:05,405 talk offline about that stuff. Awesome. Well, I 2073 01:14:05,405 --> 01:14:08,445 look forward to future communications with you guys. 2074 01:14:08,445 --> 01:14:10,685 Let's do this again. I think it's been 2075 01:14:10,685 --> 01:14:11,905 fantastic. And, 2076 01:14:12,630 --> 01:14:14,630 Rob Pincus, thank you for your, 2077 01:14:15,110 --> 01:14:17,689 repeated input as we've gone through this. 2078 01:14:19,750 --> 01:14:21,590 Yeah. I appreciate it. Remember, the podcast is 2079 01:14:21,590 --> 01:14:24,170 not done. I'm gonna very awkwardly 2080 01:14:24,524 --> 01:14:25,344 kick him 2081 01:14:25,725 --> 01:14:26,225 out. 2082 01:14:26,844 --> 01:14:27,885 Have a good night. Thank you, John. I 2083 01:14:27,885 --> 01:14:29,804 appreciate it being here. Thank you, gentlemen. Have 2084 01:14:29,804 --> 01:14:31,185 a great night. You too. Alright. 2085 01:14:32,604 --> 01:14:35,085 That was good. That was good stuff. Alright. 2086 01:14:35,085 --> 01:14:36,864 He's gone. We could talk shit now. 2087 01:14:40,239 --> 01:14:40,739 So, 2088 01:14:42,159 --> 01:14:43,840 yeah, that was good. That that was that 2089 01:14:43,840 --> 01:14:46,079 was good. Obviously, we we we got to 2090 01:14:46,079 --> 01:14:46,820 a point where, 2091 01:14:47,680 --> 01:14:50,399 we probably still don't agree 100%, but it 2092 01:14:50,479 --> 01:14:52,159 it's always good to have the conversation. And 2093 01:14:52,159 --> 01:14:54,720 we invite any other instructor who who's kind 2094 01:14:54,720 --> 01:14:55,939 of in that that position, 2095 01:14:57,175 --> 01:14:58,614 to to talk about it. 2096 01:15:00,135 --> 01:15:01,814 I I do wanna talk about your board. 2097 01:15:01,814 --> 01:15:03,414 I know we've talked about it before, but 2098 01:15:03,655 --> 01:15:05,515 Yeah. It's there. Yeah. Actually, 2099 01:15:06,375 --> 01:15:08,635 I wanna kinda share a video 2100 01:15:09,335 --> 01:15:10,715 Oh, okay. That, 2101 01:15:13,389 --> 01:15:14,989 I don't I don't know how it if 2102 01:15:14,989 --> 01:15:17,309 it directly relates to to what's on the 2103 01:15:17,309 --> 01:15:19,729 board, but because I don't know, like, 2104 01:15:20,590 --> 01:15:23,149 how to how to relate the specific rules 2105 01:15:23,149 --> 01:15:25,229 to the sequence of events that happen in 2106 01:15:25,229 --> 01:15:25,969 this video. 2107 01:15:26,715 --> 01:15:28,094 But it is a firearm safety 2108 01:15:28,395 --> 01:15:31,274 video, and it is a an accident with 2109 01:15:31,274 --> 01:15:33,194 a firearm. And it's not graphic in any 2110 01:15:33,194 --> 01:15:33,694 way, 2111 01:15:34,475 --> 01:15:35,774 but it demonstrates 2112 01:15:37,994 --> 01:15:40,279 what what we mean when we say, 2113 01:15:40,739 --> 01:15:42,579 keep in mind that you're in control of 2114 01:15:42,579 --> 01:15:44,260 a firearm, and that it could hurt you 2115 01:15:44,260 --> 01:15:46,420 or kill you or someone else if used 2116 01:15:46,420 --> 01:15:48,119 negligently or or maliciously. 2117 01:15:48,420 --> 01:15:50,279 So I think I'm sharing my screen. 2118 01:15:50,715 --> 01:15:53,054 Am I sharing my screen? Yep. Okay. 2119 01:15:53,514 --> 01:15:54,574 Am I on the DB? 2120 01:15:55,114 --> 01:15:57,774 So we have this woman shooting a large 2121 01:15:58,474 --> 01:16:01,514 revolver, probably a larger caliber, probably thirty eight 2122 01:16:01,514 --> 01:16:04,094 three fifty seven at least. And 2123 01:16:05,399 --> 01:16:06,920 she is I like how you call the 2124 01:16:06,920 --> 01:16:09,479 38 a larger caliber. Well, I mean, not 2125 01:16:09,479 --> 01:16:10,460 a 22. 2126 01:16:10,600 --> 01:16:11,179 You know? 2127 01:16:12,679 --> 01:16:13,179 So, 2128 01:16:14,920 --> 01:16:17,500 let's just watch what happens here. Bang. 2129 01:16:21,064 --> 01:16:23,244 It's beautiful, really, in its simplicity. 2130 01:16:24,824 --> 01:16:27,145 So She just wanna make sure it worked. 2131 01:16:27,145 --> 01:16:27,645 Yeah. 2132 01:16:28,744 --> 01:16:30,824 So I don't it's it's not high enough 2133 01:16:30,824 --> 01:16:32,425 resolution for me that to know this for 2134 01:16:32,425 --> 01:16:33,564 sure, but I suspect 2135 01:16:34,310 --> 01:16:36,970 that she thought she was pulling the trigger 2136 01:16:37,430 --> 01:16:39,050 and nothing was happening 2137 01:16:39,430 --> 01:16:41,590 on the gun. And she was trying to 2138 01:16:41,590 --> 01:16:43,369 figure out what was wrong 2139 01:16:43,670 --> 01:16:45,590 by turning the gun into a position where 2140 01:16:45,590 --> 01:16:46,970 she could see the trigger 2141 01:16:48,905 --> 01:16:52,664 and then function check the firearm by fully 2142 01:16:52,664 --> 01:16:53,645 pressing the trigger 2143 01:16:54,505 --> 01:16:56,284 and returning back to her, 2144 01:16:56,905 --> 01:16:59,164 okay. Now we're ready to shoot. It works. 2145 01:17:01,945 --> 01:17:04,210 But this this happened. This is one of 2146 01:17:04,210 --> 01:17:05,829 the things that I I I posted. 2147 01:17:06,770 --> 01:17:08,550 I I forget who it was. 2148 01:17:13,250 --> 01:17:13,909 It was 2149 01:17:14,369 --> 01:17:14,869 about, 2150 01:17:16,210 --> 01:17:17,270 in in a competition. 2151 01:17:18,555 --> 01:17:20,875 And I I reshared the video, and a 2152 01:17:20,875 --> 01:17:21,375 couple 2153 01:17:21,835 --> 01:17:23,994 people shared it. So I reshared it, put 2154 01:17:23,994 --> 01:17:24,895 it to the stories, 2155 01:17:25,515 --> 01:17:27,194 and it was a a dude doing a 2156 01:17:27,194 --> 01:17:29,295 competition. He had a hole in his leg. 2157 01:17:30,314 --> 01:17:31,994 Oh, this has been going around in the 2158 01:17:31,994 --> 01:17:34,170 last couple days. Yeah. Did you see it? 2159 01:17:34,170 --> 01:17:36,329 Yeah. Yeah. So it was this idea of, 2160 01:17:36,329 --> 01:17:37,789 like, the that's it's stupid 2161 01:17:38,650 --> 01:17:41,210 to press the trigger after you've already verified 2162 01:17:41,210 --> 01:17:42,590 that it's empty. Verifying 2163 01:17:43,690 --> 01:17:45,449 if a gun is loaded by pressing the 2164 01:17:45,449 --> 01:17:47,055 trigger is super dumb. 2165 01:17:47,375 --> 01:17:49,314 Well, so that that's a USPCA 2166 01:17:49,775 --> 01:17:50,275 requirement. 2167 01:17:50,975 --> 01:17:51,475 Right? 2168 01:17:53,295 --> 01:17:55,055 The as far as I understand, and correct 2169 01:17:55,055 --> 01:17:56,655 me if I'm wrong, anybody in the chat 2170 01:17:56,655 --> 01:17:58,034 can correct me if I'm wrong, 2171 01:17:58,895 --> 01:18:00,335 but the the, 2172 01:18:00,895 --> 01:18:01,395 protocol 2173 01:18:02,819 --> 01:18:05,139 for verifying that the gun is unloaded is 2174 01:18:05,139 --> 01:18:07,880 to, in front of the RSO, 2175 01:18:08,340 --> 01:18:10,679 drop the mag, lock the gun open, 2176 01:18:11,619 --> 01:18:12,840 or rack the slide, 2177 01:18:14,725 --> 01:18:16,805 point the gun downrange, and pull the trigger 2178 01:18:17,045 --> 01:18:19,145 Press the trigger. And then reholster the gun. 2179 01:18:20,484 --> 01:18:22,164 Yeah. And I think that this came from 2180 01:18:22,244 --> 01:18:24,164 because I'm not real I'm not real studied 2181 01:18:24,164 --> 01:18:26,164 on competition, but from my understanding, this came 2182 01:18:26,164 --> 01:18:28,539 from the fact that if you if you 2183 01:18:28,539 --> 01:18:30,939 had a firearm and you're walking around in 2184 01:18:30,939 --> 01:18:32,159 the safe area 2185 01:18:32,539 --> 01:18:34,000 with a cocked firearm, 2186 01:18:34,300 --> 01:18:36,380 how does anybody know that that gun's not 2187 01:18:36,380 --> 01:18:39,465 about to go off by itself? Correct. Because 2188 01:18:39,465 --> 01:18:40,905 the gun's not allowed to be out of 2189 01:18:40,905 --> 01:18:42,445 the holster as far as I understand. 2190 01:18:44,185 --> 01:18:44,685 But 2191 01:18:45,064 --> 01:18:47,564 a cocked gun is a dangerous gun. So 2192 01:18:48,104 --> 01:18:49,625 in order for us to to make sure 2193 01:18:49,625 --> 01:18:51,385 it's not cocked, you're gonna have to go 2194 01:18:51,385 --> 01:18:53,145 ahead and just point the trigger or point 2195 01:18:53,145 --> 01:18:54,925 the gun downrange and and pull the trigger. 2196 01:18:55,409 --> 01:18:57,730 What was the understanding? No. That that's that 2197 01:18:57,810 --> 01:18:59,170 that's 100% 2198 01:18:59,170 --> 01:19:01,350 is is back when we had hammer guns, 2199 01:19:02,050 --> 01:19:02,550 primarily. 2200 01:19:04,289 --> 01:19:05,750 The only way people would 2201 01:19:06,610 --> 01:19:07,110 believed 2202 01:19:07,635 --> 01:19:09,555 that there was only one way to know 2203 01:19:09,555 --> 01:19:11,734 and that's if the the hammer was down. 2204 01:19:12,914 --> 01:19:16,114 They disregarded that double action is is a 2205 01:19:16,114 --> 01:19:16,614 thing. 2206 01:19:18,274 --> 01:19:18,774 And 2207 01:19:19,475 --> 01:19:19,975 but 2208 01:19:20,510 --> 01:19:22,829 for you, how how would how else could 2209 01:19:22,829 --> 01:19:23,489 we know? 2210 01:19:24,430 --> 01:19:26,189 You could look. You could lock the gun 2211 01:19:26,189 --> 01:19:28,189 open. You could look into the chamber, look 2212 01:19:28,189 --> 01:19:29,949 into the magazine well, show it to the 2213 01:19:29,949 --> 01:19:30,449 RSO, 2214 01:19:30,909 --> 01:19:33,284 close the gun if you want to, and 2215 01:19:33,284 --> 01:19:34,505 put it back in the holster. 2216 01:19:34,965 --> 01:19:37,204 Yeah. I mean, once two humans have verified 2217 01:19:37,204 --> 01:19:38,965 that the gun is is empty, I mean, 2218 01:19:38,965 --> 01:19:40,885 that's that should be enough. That should be 2219 01:19:40,885 --> 01:19:42,505 the rule. Right? Like, everybody 2220 01:19:43,045 --> 01:19:44,965 verifies that the gun is up. But we 2221 01:19:44,965 --> 01:19:46,505 do this at the end of our classes 2222 01:19:46,645 --> 01:19:47,145 where, 2223 01:19:48,404 --> 01:19:49,020 we have, 2224 01:19:49,420 --> 01:19:51,119 them line up, shoulder, 2225 01:19:51,979 --> 01:19:53,840 drop the mag, lock it open. 2226 01:19:54,220 --> 01:19:56,300 Two people have to verify. And then once 2227 01:19:56,300 --> 01:19:59,100 that's done, it remains locked open, and then 2228 01:19:59,100 --> 01:20:00,880 you go back to the holster with the, 2229 01:20:02,395 --> 01:20:05,195 action open. Mhmm. Why? Because now nobody has 2230 01:20:05,195 --> 01:20:06,735 that question if you have 2231 01:20:07,354 --> 01:20:09,275 the loaded gun or not the loaded gun 2232 01:20:09,275 --> 01:20:10,875 and and all that stuff. So did you 2233 01:20:10,875 --> 01:20:11,854 read the guy's 2234 01:20:12,155 --> 01:20:12,655 explanation 2235 01:20:13,130 --> 01:20:15,449 about what happened in that video? My fucking 2236 01:20:15,449 --> 01:20:15,949 brain 2237 01:20:16,250 --> 01:20:19,069 went like, because it's, like, seven fucking pages 2238 01:20:19,210 --> 01:20:20,510 worth of explanation. 2239 01:20:20,889 --> 01:20:23,289 Yeah. So for those who don't know, I'll 2240 01:20:23,289 --> 01:20:25,289 give the short version of what happened in 2241 01:20:25,289 --> 01:20:27,704 this competition. Can I take this video now? 2242 01:20:27,945 --> 01:20:29,784 Yeah. Yeah. I might put it back up 2243 01:20:29,784 --> 01:20:31,225 in a minute, but, yeah, I can take 2244 01:20:31,225 --> 01:20:31,885 it down. 2245 01:20:32,744 --> 01:20:34,364 This guy was shooting competition. 2246 01:20:35,225 --> 01:20:35,725 He 2247 01:20:36,664 --> 01:20:37,725 loaded his gun, 2248 01:20:38,104 --> 01:20:39,244 put it in his holster, 2249 01:20:40,920 --> 01:20:41,420 and 2250 01:20:42,039 --> 01:20:43,560 after he loaded the gun and put it 2251 01:20:43,560 --> 01:20:45,900 in his holster to start the stage, somebody 2252 01:20:45,960 --> 01:20:48,140 yelled, hey. There's somebody downrange. 2253 01:20:50,600 --> 01:20:53,260 At which point, the RSO told the guy 2254 01:20:53,320 --> 01:20:55,854 to take, to unload and show clear 2255 01:20:57,034 --> 01:20:59,595 while somebody's downrange. Now this guy explained that 2256 01:20:59,595 --> 01:21:00,735 he's new to 2257 01:21:01,195 --> 01:21:02,175 competition shooting, 2258 01:21:02,555 --> 01:21:04,335 and he was already a little 2259 01:21:04,715 --> 01:21:07,500 hyped up, already a little bit nervous. Yeah. 2260 01:21:07,500 --> 01:21:09,840 And finding out that there is somebody downrange 2261 01:21:10,539 --> 01:21:13,180 and being told to unload and show clear 2262 01:21:13,180 --> 01:21:14,640 apparently was too much 2263 01:21:15,500 --> 01:21:17,600 information for him in the moment. 2264 01:21:18,060 --> 01:21:21,439 And he explained that stressed out, he 2265 01:21:23,715 --> 01:21:25,954 he I don't I don't remember the sequence 2266 01:21:25,954 --> 01:21:27,654 of events that he thinks happened, 2267 01:21:28,034 --> 01:21:30,135 but when he went to pull the trigger 2268 01:21:30,194 --> 01:21:31,175 to show clear, 2269 01:21:32,034 --> 01:21:33,795 it was pointed at his leg when he 2270 01:21:33,795 --> 01:21:35,734 did it. And somehow, he, 2271 01:21:36,829 --> 01:21:38,430 still had a round in the gun and 2272 01:21:38,430 --> 01:21:39,250 shot himself. 2273 01:21:39,789 --> 01:21:40,289 So 2274 01:21:40,829 --> 01:21:42,609 from a safety point of view, 2275 01:21:43,310 --> 01:21:45,069 not from a protocol point of view, but 2276 01:21:45,069 --> 01:21:46,689 from a safety point of view, 2277 01:21:47,310 --> 01:21:48,109 what is the 2278 01:21:49,604 --> 01:21:51,444 what what what was probably the best course 2279 01:21:51,444 --> 01:21:53,284 of action in that moment when there's somebody 2280 01:21:53,284 --> 01:21:55,444 downrange and there's a person about to start 2281 01:21:55,444 --> 01:21:57,545 the stage with a holstered loaded handgun? 2282 01:21:58,965 --> 01:22:00,404 Keep the gun in the holster. Keep the 2283 01:22:00,404 --> 01:22:01,625 gun in the fucking holster. 2284 01:22:02,720 --> 01:22:04,640 Like, if if Tell him. Somebody's if if 2285 01:22:04,640 --> 01:22:07,539 somebody's downrange, there should not be any administrative 2286 01:22:07,760 --> 01:22:09,680 touching of the like, you shouldn't be dusting 2287 01:22:09,680 --> 01:22:11,760 it off. Yeah. But but mistakes happen. The 2288 01:22:11,760 --> 01:22:13,680 world is a is a beautiful complex place, 2289 01:22:13,680 --> 01:22:16,345 and mistakes happen. Correct. And it's not the 2290 01:22:16,345 --> 01:22:19,064 first time somebody's been downrange when a gun 2291 01:22:19,225 --> 01:22:21,465 somebody's preparing to start the the the, 2292 01:22:22,345 --> 01:22:23,085 the stage. 2293 01:22:24,585 --> 01:22:25,085 So 2294 01:22:25,385 --> 01:22:27,405 the gun is in the holster. 2295 01:22:28,760 --> 01:22:31,400 If we're worried about somebody getting shot, then 2296 01:22:31,400 --> 01:22:33,400 the best thing to do would be not 2297 01:22:33,400 --> 01:22:33,900 touch 2298 01:22:34,280 --> 01:22:34,939 the gun. 2299 01:22:36,280 --> 01:22:38,039 The gun's not going to go off by 2300 01:22:38,039 --> 01:22:40,039 itself unless it's a p three, 2301 01:22:40,600 --> 01:22:41,420 three twenty, 2302 01:22:42,475 --> 01:22:44,875 and it's already pointed down when it's in 2303 01:22:44,875 --> 01:22:45,534 the holster. 2304 01:22:47,435 --> 01:22:49,454 So here's where a rule 2305 01:22:50,315 --> 01:22:51,695 superseded the concept 2306 01:22:52,074 --> 01:22:54,235 of safety, and there we go. We have 2307 01:22:54,235 --> 01:22:54,735 tied 2308 01:22:55,390 --> 01:22:56,690 to Yeah. There we go. 2309 01:22:57,230 --> 01:22:59,489 The rule superseded the concept 2310 01:23:00,030 --> 01:23:00,930 in that moment. 2311 01:23:01,310 --> 01:23:04,190 It's not about how do we handle this 2312 01:23:04,190 --> 01:23:06,909 situation in the safest way possible. It's what 2313 01:23:06,909 --> 01:23:08,829 is the protocol to unload the firearm 2314 01:23:10,545 --> 01:23:12,225 Yeah. Which was the wrong thing to do 2315 01:23:12,225 --> 01:23:13,045 in that moment. 2316 01:23:13,824 --> 01:23:15,585 Because even if he hadn't shot himself, it 2317 01:23:15,585 --> 01:23:17,104 would still have been the wrong thing to 2318 01:23:17,104 --> 01:23:18,244 do in that moment. 2319 01:23:19,265 --> 01:23:20,244 100%. 2320 01:23:21,185 --> 01:23:21,925 Your your 2321 01:23:22,305 --> 01:23:24,324 your policy, your your rules, 2322 01:23:24,699 --> 01:23:25,979 because this dude was thinking about, like, I 2323 01:23:25,979 --> 01:23:27,659 don't wanna be dequeued if I don't listen 2324 01:23:27,659 --> 01:23:28,800 to to the RSO. 2325 01:23:29,100 --> 01:23:30,960 Mhmm. But, like, the RSO was wrong, 2326 01:23:31,420 --> 01:23:32,960 but the RSO was following 2327 01:23:33,500 --> 01:23:34,640 the the game rules, 2328 01:23:35,899 --> 01:23:38,479 which were not to be I'm I'm sure 2329 01:23:38,864 --> 01:23:41,024 USPSA, to their credit, probably doesn't say if 2330 01:23:41,024 --> 01:23:43,585 there's people down rage. Fuck it. Just clear 2331 01:23:43,585 --> 01:23:45,505 the gun. Make sure everything's clear. Yeah. And 2332 01:23:45,505 --> 01:23:47,664 I wouldn't know. I I've not read the 2333 01:23:47,664 --> 01:23:48,805 the safety protocols, 2334 01:23:49,664 --> 01:23:51,345 but we do know what the safety protocol 2335 01:23:51,345 --> 01:23:52,725 is to unload the firearm 2336 01:23:53,739 --> 01:23:55,600 while you're on the stage. Correct. 2337 01:23:56,380 --> 01:23:56,880 So 2338 01:23:58,060 --> 01:24:00,159 and that's why we don't teach 2339 01:24:01,100 --> 01:24:01,600 rules 2340 01:24:02,380 --> 01:24:04,320 first. We don't teach rules 2341 01:24:04,859 --> 01:24:08,479 as how safety works. Correct. Rules are important, 2342 01:24:09,074 --> 01:24:11,414 but you need to understand first and foremost 2343 01:24:12,354 --> 01:24:14,454 how to manage safety in a dynamic, 2344 01:24:15,074 --> 01:24:18,055 dangerous environment, where if if there's a firearm, 2345 01:24:18,354 --> 01:24:20,274 there is the potential that that firearm could 2346 01:24:20,274 --> 01:24:21,094 harm somebody. 2347 01:24:22,284 --> 01:24:22,710 So 2348 01:24:25,270 --> 01:24:26,409 USP USPSA 2349 01:24:27,109 --> 01:24:27,609 rules 2350 01:24:28,149 --> 01:24:29,689 I probably been saying it wrong. 2351 01:24:30,390 --> 01:24:33,189 USPS. Specify what should happen, but could you 2352 01:24:33,189 --> 01:24:34,729 tell us what should happen, 2353 01:24:35,475 --> 01:24:37,555 in that situation? So because that's where I 2354 01:24:37,555 --> 01:24:38,854 don't know. I just don't know 2355 01:24:39,155 --> 01:24:40,135 what what USPSA 2356 01:24:40,515 --> 01:24:42,055 rules are in that context. 2357 01:24:43,555 --> 01:24:45,814 Yeah. Automated approaches to safety. 2358 01:24:46,515 --> 01:24:49,074 The only available response to these guys is 2359 01:24:49,074 --> 01:24:50,369 unload and show clear. 2360 01:24:52,210 --> 01:24:52,710 So 2361 01:24:55,010 --> 01:24:57,409 the concept of safety is is what is 2362 01:24:57,409 --> 01:25:00,550 the safest thing to do given the, 2363 01:25:01,649 --> 01:25:04,774 expected result in this in this situation? How 2364 01:25:04,774 --> 01:25:07,255 do we balance the expected benefit with the 2365 01:25:07,255 --> 01:25:07,755 known, 2366 01:25:08,454 --> 01:25:11,574 or perceived risks? So not getting shot would 2367 01:25:11,574 --> 01:25:14,215 be the expected benefit. If we start handling 2368 01:25:14,215 --> 01:25:15,914 a gun when somebody is downrange, 2369 01:25:16,375 --> 01:25:17,435 that is unnecessarily 2370 01:25:18,454 --> 01:25:18,954 dangerous 2371 01:25:19,430 --> 01:25:20,970 in this particular concept. 2372 01:25:22,470 --> 01:25:24,890 Yeah, you have to actually think about safety. 2373 01:25:25,829 --> 01:25:28,070 I think there's this there's this problem that 2374 01:25:28,070 --> 01:25:30,550 happens with guns, especially when it comes to 2375 01:25:30,550 --> 01:25:33,270 instructors or people who think in that teaching 2376 01:25:33,270 --> 01:25:33,770 mindset, 2377 01:25:34,070 --> 01:25:34,729 is that 2378 01:25:35,085 --> 01:25:38,045 people are too retarded to think and shouldn't 2379 01:25:38,045 --> 01:25:40,445 be given the option to think. And that 2380 01:25:40,445 --> 01:25:41,885 that that's why we have to just give 2381 01:25:41,885 --> 01:25:43,565 them four rules and tell them, like, you 2382 01:25:43,565 --> 01:25:45,485 follow these rules a 100% of the time 2383 01:25:45,485 --> 01:25:47,565 no matter what, and that takes all the 2384 01:25:47,565 --> 01:25:48,625 thinking out of it. 2385 01:25:49,560 --> 01:25:51,399 Yeah. But the the the problem is now 2386 01:25:51,399 --> 01:25:53,239 you enter the complexity of the brain. Right? 2387 01:25:53,239 --> 01:25:54,139 Because the the 2388 01:25:54,599 --> 01:25:55,179 the reason 2389 01:25:55,639 --> 01:25:57,639 people tend to break a lot of these 2390 01:25:57,639 --> 01:26:00,760 rules is because the brain cannot comprehend that 2391 01:26:00,760 --> 01:26:01,420 you said 2392 01:26:01,994 --> 01:26:03,594 always treat it as if it were loaded, 2393 01:26:03,594 --> 01:26:05,835 and then you proceeded to show it unloaded. 2394 01:26:05,835 --> 01:26:07,994 And then directly after that, press the trigger, 2395 01:26:07,994 --> 01:26:09,755 which would violate that rule that you just 2396 01:26:09,755 --> 01:26:11,594 said you were going to follow. Because if 2397 01:26:11,594 --> 01:26:12,875 I were to treat this gun as if 2398 01:26:12,875 --> 01:26:15,354 we're out loaded, I'm not gonna fucking press 2399 01:26:15,354 --> 01:26:17,114 the trigger when there is nothing to shoot 2400 01:26:17,114 --> 01:26:19,430 at. There's there's there's no 2401 01:26:19,810 --> 01:26:21,570 there's no target to shoot at. And we 2402 01:26:21,570 --> 01:26:23,570 see this all the time. We see people 2403 01:26:23,570 --> 01:26:25,510 pressing the trigger even on Glocks, 2404 01:26:26,050 --> 01:26:28,210 even on Stryker Fire Firearms. We see them 2405 01:26:28,210 --> 01:26:30,770 pressing the trigger just to make sure nothing's 2406 01:26:30,770 --> 01:26:31,270 there. 2407 01:26:31,895 --> 01:26:34,314 Just to make sure the spring isn't whatever. 2408 01:26:34,534 --> 01:26:37,015 Just to make sure it relaxes. Whatever the 2409 01:26:37,015 --> 01:26:39,654 bullshit excuse is. So now you enter the 2410 01:26:39,734 --> 01:26:41,975 this reality of the brain is going to 2411 01:26:41,975 --> 01:26:44,154 reject your words because your actions 2412 01:26:44,880 --> 01:26:46,319 are not consistent with what it was. So 2413 01:26:46,319 --> 01:26:47,760 in the long run, when you're doing the 2414 01:26:47,760 --> 01:26:48,819 unconscious stuff, 2415 01:26:49,279 --> 01:26:51,520 the system one stuff, that's when you enter 2416 01:26:51,520 --> 01:26:53,840 into this, like, the the brain is like, 2417 01:26:53,840 --> 01:26:56,479 you don't mean those words. Mhmm. Because your 2418 01:26:56,479 --> 01:26:58,735 actions are always and I think this is 2419 01:26:58,735 --> 01:27:00,015 where a lot of people get in trouble. 2420 01:27:00,015 --> 01:27:02,255 Right? Because the the default is they should 2421 01:27:02,255 --> 01:27:04,895 have just been following the rules. Mhmm. Well, 2422 01:27:04,895 --> 01:27:06,895 no. That's that's we gotta get away from 2423 01:27:06,895 --> 01:27:09,854 that because that's we can't follow those rules. 2424 01:27:09,854 --> 01:27:10,914 You gotta be responsible. 2425 01:27:12,560 --> 01:27:16,319 That that's the mindset is, first and foremost, 2426 01:27:16,319 --> 01:27:17,920 you have to be responsible. Going back to 2427 01:27:17,920 --> 01:27:19,439 the discussion about the law, we're not trying 2428 01:27:19,439 --> 01:27:21,199 to make law abiding citizens out of these 2429 01:27:21,199 --> 01:27:23,279 students. We're trying to make responsible gun owners 2430 01:27:23,279 --> 01:27:25,859 out of these citizens. Correct. So the responsible 2431 01:27:25,920 --> 01:27:26,819 thing to do 2432 01:27:27,125 --> 01:27:29,685 when a a gun is already holstered and 2433 01:27:29,685 --> 01:27:32,324 there is somebody downrange is to not touch 2434 01:27:32,324 --> 01:27:32,984 your gun. 2435 01:27:33,524 --> 01:27:35,925 Don't increase the risk by doing something that's 2436 01:27:35,925 --> 01:27:37,385 not necessary in the moment. 2437 01:27:38,244 --> 01:27:41,449 So Joseph says, the rule says someone, anyone, 2438 01:27:41,829 --> 01:27:42,969 yell stop, 2439 01:27:43,429 --> 01:27:47,529 shooter doesn't move. That makes sense to me. 2440 01:27:50,309 --> 01:27:52,889 So this this sounds like the breakdown 2441 01:27:53,189 --> 01:27:54,409 started with the RSO 2442 01:27:55,015 --> 01:27:57,034 going to the wrong safety protocol 2443 01:27:57,895 --> 01:27:58,395 because, 2444 01:28:00,454 --> 01:28:03,114 they they I guess they figured an unloaded 2445 01:28:03,255 --> 01:28:03,755 gun 2446 01:28:04,135 --> 01:28:06,215 makes it safer now for that person to 2447 01:28:06,215 --> 01:28:06,875 be downrange. 2448 01:28:09,640 --> 01:28:10,140 Yeah. 2449 01:28:10,520 --> 01:28:11,020 Yeah. 2450 01:28:11,640 --> 01:28:14,060 Yeah. It's it's it's this this weird, 2451 01:28:14,920 --> 01:28:17,800 mentality, and and people follow that stuff almost 2452 01:28:17,800 --> 01:28:18,680 like a cult. 2453 01:28:19,720 --> 01:28:21,079 I don't know if you've had this in 2454 01:28:21,079 --> 01:28:22,939 in class when when you, 2455 01:28:24,324 --> 01:28:26,564 talk about this this subject and people are 2456 01:28:26,564 --> 01:28:28,965 like, well, I've had the rules, just the 2457 01:28:28,965 --> 01:28:30,645 the rules that we follow and and the 2458 01:28:30,645 --> 01:28:32,664 ones that that we we teach. 2459 01:28:33,045 --> 01:28:34,645 And then people are like, you're missing stuff 2460 01:28:34,645 --> 01:28:36,564 on there. And then that gives the opportunity 2461 01:28:36,564 --> 01:28:38,324 to talk about why, like, we're not missing 2462 01:28:38,324 --> 01:28:38,824 anything. 2463 01:28:39,239 --> 01:28:41,399 And in fact, these are complete and why 2464 01:28:41,399 --> 01:28:42,060 they're complete. 2465 01:28:42,439 --> 01:28:44,039 And then some people are like, well, but 2466 01:28:44,039 --> 01:28:45,760 that's not what if I can and Yeah. 2467 01:28:45,880 --> 01:28:47,479 They enter this well. The one I get 2468 01:28:47,479 --> 01:28:48,760 most often is, 2469 01:28:49,159 --> 01:28:51,000 when they say it's not complete is, 2470 01:28:51,399 --> 01:28:53,420 always treat every gun as if it's loaded. 2471 01:28:54,944 --> 01:28:57,764 So, a, it's not missing because 2472 01:28:58,064 --> 01:29:00,385 you have rule number three, the big picture 2473 01:29:00,385 --> 01:29:00,885 rule, 2474 01:29:01,185 --> 01:29:03,264 always or not always. Keep in mind that 2475 01:29:03,264 --> 01:29:04,625 you're in control of a firearm, and they 2476 01:29:04,625 --> 01:29:06,804 could hurt or kill someone if used negligently 2477 01:29:07,104 --> 01:29:10,050 or maliciously. So it's covered there. Correct. But, 2478 01:29:10,050 --> 01:29:12,289 also, let's just take a second to talk 2479 01:29:12,289 --> 01:29:13,590 about how 2480 01:29:13,969 --> 01:29:14,469 always 2481 01:29:14,849 --> 01:29:17,569 treat every firearm as if it's loaded doesn't 2482 01:29:17,569 --> 01:29:18,550 make any sense. 2483 01:29:21,345 --> 01:29:23,284 Yeah. Give me give me one example. 2484 01:29:24,784 --> 01:29:26,465 Okay. Say that again. I was I was 2485 01:29:26,625 --> 01:29:28,145 Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's the only reason I'm 2486 01:29:28,145 --> 01:29:29,824 sorry. Always treat every firearm as if it's 2487 01:29:29,824 --> 01:29:30,324 loaded. 2488 01:29:30,944 --> 01:29:31,444 Okay. 2489 01:29:31,904 --> 01:29:33,744 How how does that like, give me a 2490 01:29:33,744 --> 01:29:36,404 circumstance where that absolutely makes zero sense. 2491 01:29:37,579 --> 01:29:40,079 Glock's cleaning guns. Cleaning your gun, 2492 01:29:40,460 --> 01:29:41,520 and you have a Glock. 2493 01:29:41,899 --> 01:29:43,260 And so for those of you who don't 2494 01:29:43,260 --> 01:29:44,939 know, in order to take the gun apart 2495 01:29:44,939 --> 01:29:46,380 on the Glock, you need to make sure 2496 01:29:46,380 --> 01:29:47,920 the trigger is not engaged. 2497 01:29:48,380 --> 01:29:50,675 And so you're gonna make sure it's unloaded, 2498 01:29:50,675 --> 01:29:52,194 which means you're going to rack the slide, 2499 01:29:52,194 --> 01:29:53,795 which will engage the trigger. So the only 2500 01:29:53,795 --> 01:29:55,654 way to disassemble the gun at that point 2501 01:29:55,875 --> 01:29:58,194 is to press the trigger before you start 2502 01:29:58,194 --> 01:30:00,054 the takedown sequence on the gun. 2503 01:30:00,755 --> 01:30:02,034 So if you were treating it as if 2504 01:30:02,034 --> 01:30:03,720 you were it were loaded, you're not gonna 2505 01:30:03,720 --> 01:30:05,739 pull the trigger on the gun in your 2506 01:30:06,360 --> 01:30:08,840 basement, your living room, your bedroom, wherever you're 2507 01:30:08,840 --> 01:30:09,900 cleaning that firearm. 2508 01:30:11,159 --> 01:30:11,659 Yeah. 2509 01:30:12,840 --> 01:30:14,360 So some people have said, well, what if 2510 01:30:14,360 --> 01:30:16,199 you just changed it to always know the 2511 01:30:16,199 --> 01:30:17,579 condition of your firearm? 2512 01:30:23,085 --> 01:30:25,885 Yeah. I mean, you're entering into this realm 2513 01:30:25,885 --> 01:30:26,385 of 2514 01:30:27,404 --> 01:30:29,645 the the absolutes. Right? Like, always know the 2515 01:30:29,645 --> 01:30:30,864 condition of your firearm. 2516 01:30:31,484 --> 01:30:33,804 You can't always know the condition of the 2517 01:30:33,804 --> 01:30:34,604 firearm. That's 2518 01:30:35,279 --> 01:30:37,760 it's a mechanical device. It it is prone 2519 01:30:37,760 --> 01:30:39,679 to failure at some point in its life. 2520 01:30:39,679 --> 01:30:41,520 There could be a circumstance where you have 2521 01:30:41,520 --> 01:30:43,359 to take control of a firearm, and there's 2522 01:30:43,359 --> 01:30:44,880 no way that you're gonna know the condition 2523 01:30:44,880 --> 01:30:47,039 of that firearm when you take control of 2524 01:30:47,039 --> 01:30:48,979 it. Now Correct. You might have an opportunity 2525 01:30:49,435 --> 01:30:51,454 to discover the condition of the firearm, 2526 01:30:52,395 --> 01:30:54,154 but that might not be the best thing 2527 01:30:54,154 --> 01:30:55,215 to do in that moment. 2528 01:30:56,314 --> 01:30:56,814 Correct. 2529 01:30:57,835 --> 01:31:00,494 Yeah. I think that's that's the issue is 2530 01:31:00,795 --> 01:31:03,210 in large is is this idea of always 2531 01:31:03,210 --> 01:31:05,609 and never and and the absoluteness of these 2532 01:31:05,609 --> 01:31:06,430 these laws. 2533 01:31:07,210 --> 01:31:08,649 The I'm sorry. Not the laws, but but 2534 01:31:08,649 --> 01:31:09,310 the rules 2535 01:31:09,770 --> 01:31:12,250 is this idea that I can always do 2536 01:31:12,250 --> 01:31:14,329 something when we we know damn well you 2537 01:31:14,329 --> 01:31:15,069 can't always, 2538 01:31:16,155 --> 01:31:17,595 do something. Yeah. 2539 01:31:18,395 --> 01:31:21,194 Like, we must avoid absolutes as much as 2540 01:31:21,194 --> 01:31:23,194 we possibly can. Mhmm. 2541 01:31:24,635 --> 01:31:26,875 And these rules don't allow. In fact, they've 2542 01:31:26,875 --> 01:31:28,555 more prayed that they don't say always point 2543 01:31:28,555 --> 01:31:30,555 in a safe direction anymore. They've changed that 2544 01:31:30,555 --> 01:31:32,079 to say, if you're not willing to kill 2545 01:31:32,079 --> 01:31:33,600 it or destroy it, your muzzle should not 2546 01:31:33,600 --> 01:31:35,680 be pointing in that direction. And that has 2547 01:31:35,680 --> 01:31:37,600 its flaws because, I mean, we we see 2548 01:31:37,600 --> 01:31:40,239 mass shootings and and people defending humans out 2549 01:31:40,239 --> 01:31:42,880 in public, and that is incredibly dangerous. But 2550 01:31:42,880 --> 01:31:45,119 that's going back to the concept of safety 2551 01:31:45,119 --> 01:31:47,125 is it's worth it at that point. Mhmm. 2552 01:31:47,125 --> 01:31:48,664 It is worth it to be 2553 01:31:49,925 --> 01:31:51,625 riskier than usual. Yeah. 2554 01:31:52,005 --> 01:31:53,925 Well, there's plenty of things in my office 2555 01:31:53,925 --> 01:31:56,265 where I handle I do most of my, 2556 01:31:56,324 --> 01:31:58,725 you know, gun handling at home in this 2557 01:31:58,725 --> 01:32:00,805 room, and there's plenty of things in here 2558 01:32:00,805 --> 01:32:02,345 that individually by themselves, 2559 01:32:02,770 --> 01:32:04,630 it would be okay if I broke it. 2560 01:32:05,969 --> 01:32:08,130 But there's nothing in here that would be 2561 01:32:08,130 --> 01:32:09,510 okay if I shot it, 2562 01:32:10,770 --> 01:32:13,010 if I destroyed it with a bullet, because 2563 01:32:13,010 --> 01:32:15,090 there's nothing in here that's gonna stop that 2564 01:32:15,090 --> 01:32:15,590 round 2565 01:32:16,609 --> 01:32:17,829 at that one thing. 2566 01:32:18,145 --> 01:32:19,664 You know? So, oh, yeah. I pointed it 2567 01:32:19,664 --> 01:32:21,104 at my desk because it's okay if I 2568 01:32:21,104 --> 01:32:23,024 put a hole in my desk. Yeah. Correct. 2569 01:32:23,024 --> 01:32:24,725 But what happens past the desk? 2570 01:32:25,425 --> 01:32:25,925 So 2571 01:32:26,465 --> 01:32:28,225 this idea of, like, well, you know, there's 2572 01:32:28,225 --> 01:32:29,585 things in here. It's okay. I mean, it 2573 01:32:29,585 --> 01:32:30,864 wouldn't be the greatest thing in the world, 2574 01:32:30,864 --> 01:32:32,385 but it's okay. It's like, no. Not really. 2575 01:32:32,385 --> 01:32:33,444 If you're in a residential 2576 01:32:33,989 --> 01:32:36,149 home, no. It's not okay for a bullet 2577 01:32:36,149 --> 01:32:38,170 to go in any direction. Explain that 2578 01:32:38,489 --> 01:32:38,989 to 2579 01:32:39,309 --> 01:32:39,809 your 2580 01:32:40,130 --> 01:32:40,630 wife. 2581 01:32:40,949 --> 01:32:42,869 Explain that to your husband. Explain that to 2582 01:32:42,869 --> 01:32:44,710 your kids. Like, no. This is okay. I 2583 01:32:44,710 --> 01:32:46,845 was okay with with shooting the wall. 2584 01:32:47,244 --> 01:32:47,485 Like, it 2585 01:32:48,604 --> 01:32:50,765 that was that was that was Well, so 2586 01:32:50,765 --> 01:32:51,645 let me just tell my, 2587 01:32:53,405 --> 01:32:55,104 one of my ND stories. 2588 01:32:56,525 --> 01:32:58,364 I've had a couple of NDs that were 2589 01:32:58,364 --> 01:32:59,505 really kind of just 2590 01:32:59,885 --> 01:33:01,104 happened on the range, 2591 01:33:01,550 --> 01:33:03,869 and the bullet went in the general direction. 2592 01:33:03,869 --> 01:33:05,630 It should have, but it was not 2593 01:33:06,989 --> 01:33:08,590 the gun wasn't supposed to go off in 2594 01:33:08,590 --> 01:33:10,670 that moment. But the one real ND that 2595 01:33:10,670 --> 01:33:12,110 I've ever had in my life where it 2596 01:33:12,110 --> 01:33:14,155 was like a holy shit moment was I 2597 01:33:14,155 --> 01:33:16,715 had a gun malfunction, and I racked the 2598 01:33:16,715 --> 01:33:19,774 slide and the the seer did not engage 2599 01:33:20,155 --> 01:33:20,395 the, 2600 01:33:21,034 --> 01:33:23,595 firing pin or stiker, and the gun went 2601 01:33:23,595 --> 01:33:25,914 off. And the it was a 22, and 2602 01:33:25,914 --> 01:33:27,375 it hit the extra magazine 2603 01:33:27,750 --> 01:33:29,909 and didn't do damage to anything else in 2604 01:33:29,909 --> 01:33:31,449 the house. It was a miracle. 2605 01:33:32,390 --> 01:33:34,949 And I'll take that l any day Yeah. 2606 01:33:35,029 --> 01:33:37,029 Over over anything else that could have happened 2607 01:33:37,029 --> 01:33:38,250 in that moment. So 2608 01:33:38,710 --> 01:33:41,784 Rob is working very hard. I am I 2609 01:33:41,784 --> 01:33:43,625 am working hard to keep up with your, 2610 01:33:44,104 --> 01:33:44,604 intense 2611 01:33:45,064 --> 01:33:45,564 conversations 2612 01:33:46,904 --> 01:33:49,244 and keep the camera oriented correctly. 2613 01:33:50,425 --> 01:33:52,744 I don't know. The hammock's moving. I think 2614 01:33:52,744 --> 01:33:55,304 it's throwing off the the gyroscope. Off the 2615 01:33:55,304 --> 01:33:55,804 vibe. 2616 01:33:57,219 --> 01:33:58,099 So you, 2617 01:33:59,219 --> 01:34:01,619 you do not take credit for this different 2618 01:34:01,619 --> 01:34:03,859 approach to firearm safety, if I'm if I'm 2619 01:34:03,859 --> 01:34:06,840 not mistaken, Rob. You credit this to, another 2620 01:34:06,899 --> 01:34:09,060 instructor that you met early on in your 2621 01:34:09,060 --> 01:34:10,599 instructing career. Is that correct? 2622 01:34:10,925 --> 01:34:13,885 No. No. You're thinking of the the the 2623 01:34:13,885 --> 01:34:14,385 idea 2624 01:34:14,685 --> 01:34:17,005 of contextually based training and the up command 2625 01:34:17,005 --> 01:34:18,625 and a lot of the idea of, 2626 01:34:19,885 --> 01:34:21,024 accepting that everybody 2627 01:34:21,324 --> 01:34:23,645 responds as an individual before a member of 2628 01:34:23,645 --> 01:34:24,545 a team and 2629 01:34:24,960 --> 01:34:26,500 extension of that being reacts 2630 01:34:27,280 --> 01:34:29,199 as a, like, human animal, right, before a 2631 01:34:29,199 --> 01:34:31,600 trained person. But, no, actually, I I think 2632 01:34:31,600 --> 01:34:33,680 I have to take credit for for coming 2633 01:34:33,680 --> 01:34:34,500 up with rules 2634 01:34:34,960 --> 01:34:37,515 that made sense to me, and this was 2635 01:34:37,515 --> 01:34:39,435 a reaction. The the exact rules that we 2636 01:34:39,435 --> 01:34:41,594 still use today that you've been talking about, 2637 01:34:42,875 --> 01:34:46,654 really were were written down formally in 02/2003. 2638 01:34:46,954 --> 01:34:48,395 And it was, I had to come up 2639 01:34:48,395 --> 01:34:50,234 with the official rules that we were gonna 2640 01:34:50,234 --> 01:34:52,619 use at the Valhalla Training Center, and there 2641 01:34:52,619 --> 01:34:54,939 had just been an incident down at gun 2642 01:34:54,939 --> 01:34:55,899 site where, 2643 01:34:56,780 --> 01:34:58,860 a very respected instructor, guy who was a 2644 01:34:58,860 --> 01:35:01,360 mentor of mine who who's who's passed since, 2645 01:35:02,220 --> 01:35:03,520 had two of his students 2646 01:35:04,460 --> 01:35:05,280 dry fire 2647 01:35:06,140 --> 01:35:09,095 speed drawing against one another. And one Oh 2648 01:35:09,095 --> 01:35:11,015 my god. Yeah. One guy had loaded gun, 2649 01:35:11,015 --> 01:35:13,975 killed himself, killed his buddy. And the response 2650 01:35:13,975 --> 01:35:15,895 from the whole community in the aftermath of 2651 01:35:15,895 --> 01:35:17,494 that was, well, they should have followed the 2652 01:35:17,494 --> 01:35:17,994 rules. 2653 01:35:18,614 --> 01:35:21,414 And my thing was, well, maybe the rules, 2654 01:35:21,414 --> 01:35:22,155 quote unquote, 2655 01:35:22,854 --> 01:35:26,100 aren't good enough, team. Because we keep saying, 2656 01:35:26,100 --> 01:35:27,460 because I had been watching it at that 2657 01:35:27,460 --> 01:35:30,180 point for, you know, ten, fifteen years, every 2658 01:35:30,180 --> 01:35:32,260 time something bad happens, people say, well, they 2659 01:35:32,260 --> 01:35:33,719 didn't follow the rules. 2660 01:35:34,020 --> 01:35:36,020 Like I'm sure there's some asshole saying, well, 2661 01:35:36,020 --> 01:35:38,235 that guy pointed the gun at himself, so 2662 01:35:38,235 --> 01:35:39,935 he didn't follow the rule. 2663 01:35:40,715 --> 01:35:42,155 He didn't treat it as if it was 2664 01:35:42,155 --> 01:35:44,414 loaded, so he didn't follow the rules. 2665 01:35:45,435 --> 01:35:46,975 Right. Because he was a newbie, 2666 01:35:47,515 --> 01:35:48,015 panicking, 2667 01:35:48,715 --> 01:35:51,375 being given an instruction that was completely counterintuitive, 2668 01:35:52,819 --> 01:35:54,500 because he knew if he pulled the gun 2669 01:35:54,500 --> 01:35:56,420 and pointed in the direction he normally would 2670 01:35:56,420 --> 01:35:58,739 pull the gun out to unload and show 2671 01:35:58,739 --> 01:35:59,239 clear, 2672 01:36:00,260 --> 01:36:02,279 there was a potentially a person down there. 2673 01:36:02,340 --> 01:36:04,179 Mhmm. So it didn't fit. Right? And that's 2674 01:36:04,179 --> 01:36:06,039 why these always never 2675 01:36:06,614 --> 01:36:07,274 limited instruction, 2676 01:36:08,774 --> 01:36:10,074 limited thought process. 2677 01:36:11,494 --> 01:36:14,395 Everyone's gonna be safe today. Right, guys? Approaches 2678 01:36:14,454 --> 01:36:15,114 to safety, 2679 01:36:15,494 --> 01:36:16,715 they just keep failing. 2680 01:36:17,175 --> 01:36:18,614 You know? And you guys have made that 2681 01:36:18,614 --> 01:36:19,814 point well. And, 2682 01:36:21,119 --> 01:36:22,720 and then Edgar's like, hey. You wanna jump 2683 01:36:22,720 --> 01:36:24,079 on? And I'm like, yeah. I'm not doing 2684 01:36:24,079 --> 01:36:26,020 anything else. Yeah. So let me ask you. 2685 01:36:26,640 --> 01:36:28,479 I kinda brought it up already. I don't 2686 01:36:28,479 --> 01:36:29,600 know if you heard it or not, but 2687 01:36:29,600 --> 01:36:32,979 I, my experience with the working with instructors 2688 01:36:33,039 --> 01:36:35,025 and other people who like to educate people 2689 01:36:35,025 --> 01:36:36,564 about firearms is generally 2690 01:36:37,104 --> 01:36:39,505 people are stupid. We can't give them the 2691 01:36:39,505 --> 01:36:41,925 opportunity to think. We have to give them 2692 01:36:42,305 --> 01:36:44,784 absolute rules that apply in every situation that 2693 01:36:44,784 --> 01:36:45,685 they just memorize 2694 01:36:46,305 --> 01:36:48,305 because we can't count on any kind of 2695 01:36:48,305 --> 01:36:49,284 critical thought 2696 01:36:49,619 --> 01:36:52,520 from these people, especially when things get complicated 2697 01:36:52,579 --> 01:36:53,639 or or stressful. 2698 01:36:54,179 --> 01:36:55,619 I I think that's that's a pretty good 2699 01:36:55,619 --> 01:36:56,979 summary of the way a lot of people 2700 01:36:56,979 --> 01:36:59,139 approach it, but it's like delusions of grandeur. 2701 01:36:59,139 --> 01:37:01,099 Right? Like, does that e is that does 2702 01:37:01,219 --> 01:37:03,139 is that I know who you, mister man, 2703 01:37:03,139 --> 01:37:05,905 who's saying that must be omnipotent and super 2704 01:37:05,905 --> 01:37:08,945 capable of controlling everything for these poor students 2705 01:37:08,945 --> 01:37:11,585 you've invited to the range. But, what about 2706 01:37:11,585 --> 01:37:13,104 the new instructor? What about the guy who 2707 01:37:13,104 --> 01:37:15,505 just got certified by the NRA after a 2708 01:37:15,505 --> 01:37:16,885 a two or three day class? 2709 01:37:17,345 --> 01:37:19,960 What about the quote unquote instructor that got 2710 01:37:19,960 --> 01:37:22,380 certified by some organization to teach a PowerPoint, 2711 01:37:22,840 --> 01:37:24,840 but has never really been taught how to 2712 01:37:24,840 --> 01:37:26,680 teach on the range or run a live 2713 01:37:26,680 --> 01:37:29,260 fire range that now invites people out there? 2714 01:37:29,319 --> 01:37:31,880 Are they just as awesome as you, mister 2715 01:37:31,880 --> 01:37:32,859 man, who thinks 2716 01:37:33,414 --> 01:37:35,494 the little students can't think on their own? 2717 01:37:35,494 --> 01:37:37,574 You know, that's the problem. Is it's it's 2718 01:37:37,574 --> 01:37:39,735 this weird, I'm gonna put myself up on 2719 01:37:39,735 --> 01:37:40,314 a pedestal. 2720 01:37:40,695 --> 01:37:42,534 You know, it's why I say, like, you 2721 01:37:42,534 --> 01:37:43,895 know what I say. Like, I say every 2722 01:37:43,895 --> 01:37:45,895 class, listen, if something happens today, it's my 2723 01:37:45,895 --> 01:37:46,350 fault. 2724 01:37:46,909 --> 01:37:48,989 I'm gonna take responsibility if somebody gets hurt 2725 01:37:48,989 --> 01:37:49,489 today. 2726 01:37:50,270 --> 01:37:52,350 Because that's my job, my number one job 2727 01:37:52,350 --> 01:37:53,489 is to prevent anything 2728 01:37:53,949 --> 01:37:56,829 from from happening. And if if literally somebody 2729 01:37:56,829 --> 01:37:58,909 takes a gun out of their holster, shoots 2730 01:37:58,909 --> 01:38:00,270 the dude next to them in the head, 2731 01:38:00,270 --> 01:38:02,324 and then shoots themselves in the face, I'm 2732 01:38:02,485 --> 01:38:04,485 gonna take some accountability for not having seen 2733 01:38:04,485 --> 01:38:06,485 that coming, not having picked up on some 2734 01:38:06,485 --> 01:38:08,244 signs. Maybe there weren't any. I don't know. 2735 01:38:08,244 --> 01:38:09,845 But that's the way I approach every day 2736 01:38:09,845 --> 01:38:11,305 on the range. So 2737 01:38:11,685 --> 01:38:13,045 there are plenty of people who would say, 2738 01:38:13,045 --> 01:38:14,885 hey. That's not on me. I can't if 2739 01:38:14,885 --> 01:38:16,885 some guy's gonna intentionally pull a gun out 2740 01:38:16,885 --> 01:38:18,800 and shoot somebody, what am I supposed to 2741 01:38:18,800 --> 01:38:19,699 do about that? 2742 01:38:20,159 --> 01:38:22,640 Well, that's the that's the responsibility you take, 2743 01:38:22,640 --> 01:38:24,479 my friend, when you say you're gonna run 2744 01:38:24,479 --> 01:38:26,399 the range. And that's why that third rule, 2745 01:38:26,399 --> 01:38:27,939 the big picture rule says negligently 2746 01:38:28,319 --> 01:38:30,739 or maliciously. It's supposed to be a reminder 2747 01:38:31,164 --> 01:38:32,685 to all of us that if if somebody 2748 01:38:32,685 --> 01:38:34,304 wants to hurt us with these guns, 2749 01:38:34,604 --> 01:38:36,625 they have the opportunity. Ask Chris Kyle. 2750 01:38:37,324 --> 01:38:38,704 Right? You have the opportunity 2751 01:38:39,564 --> 01:38:41,164 to hurt somebody on the range when you 2752 01:38:41,164 --> 01:38:42,844 come to a class. So if everybody's not 2753 01:38:42,844 --> 01:38:45,005 thinking about that a little bit and looking 2754 01:38:45,005 --> 01:38:46,225 around a little bit, 2755 01:38:46,579 --> 01:38:47,939 Right? And then what does that do? That 2756 01:38:47,939 --> 01:38:49,939 eventually gets us back to proactive mental health 2757 01:38:49,939 --> 01:38:52,019 care. It gets us back to really talking 2758 01:38:52,019 --> 01:38:54,679 about these things in a serious adult way 2759 01:38:55,300 --> 01:38:58,019 that requires some subjectivity and some processing. And 2760 01:38:58,019 --> 01:38:58,519 unfortunately, 2761 01:38:59,405 --> 01:39:01,085 you know, most instructors don't wanna do that. 2762 01:39:01,085 --> 01:39:03,565 They wanna just say, here's the rules, follow 2763 01:39:03,565 --> 01:39:04,065 them, 2764 01:39:04,525 --> 01:39:06,845 and then proceed thirty seconds later to unload 2765 01:39:06,845 --> 01:39:08,525 a gun and say, okay, this gun's unloaded 2766 01:39:08,525 --> 01:39:10,704 right now. I'm gonna do some demos. Mhmm. 2767 01:39:10,765 --> 01:39:12,845 And not expect any of these students to 2768 01:39:12,845 --> 01:39:14,465 raise their hand and say, wait, sir, 2769 01:39:14,810 --> 01:39:16,730 Didn't you just say treat every gun as 2770 01:39:16,730 --> 01:39:18,970 if it's always loaded? Now I'm super fucking 2771 01:39:18,970 --> 01:39:21,770 confused. Right. Well, I think also it's just 2772 01:39:21,850 --> 01:39:24,650 it cut it's a generally lazy attitude to 2773 01:39:24,650 --> 01:39:27,050 assume that everybody Absolutely. Too dumb. And I 2774 01:39:27,050 --> 01:39:30,104 don't I'm not really particularly interested in an 2775 01:39:30,104 --> 01:39:32,744 instructor who is going to default to a 2776 01:39:32,744 --> 01:39:33,244 lazy 2777 01:39:33,944 --> 01:39:36,204 attitude about teaching anything, but especially 2778 01:39:36,744 --> 01:39:37,244 safety. 2779 01:39:38,505 --> 01:39:40,185 You're kind of saying, like, I don't wanna 2780 01:39:40,185 --> 01:39:42,444 take the time and effort to make sure 2781 01:39:42,739 --> 01:39:45,539 that my students understand the concept of what 2782 01:39:45,539 --> 01:39:47,619 we're doing out here. That's part of it. 2783 01:39:47,619 --> 01:39:49,619 I I think I think it's it's hard 2784 01:39:49,619 --> 01:39:51,220 to in 2025, 2785 01:39:51,220 --> 01:39:53,300 for me to point a finger at the 2786 01:39:53,300 --> 01:39:56,534 average instructor because, unfortunately, now they're like three 2787 01:39:56,534 --> 01:39:59,414 three or four generations of instructors if you 2788 01:39:59,414 --> 01:40:01,655 assume like there's a turnover every decade or 2789 01:40:01,655 --> 01:40:03,814 so. They're three or four decades or three 2790 01:40:03,814 --> 01:40:06,395 or four generations into just repeating this 2791 01:40:06,695 --> 01:40:08,454 and and they're looking up to these people 2792 01:40:08,454 --> 01:40:09,960 that have written books and have been on 2793 01:40:09,960 --> 01:40:11,800 TV and have been their gurus and have 2794 01:40:11,800 --> 01:40:13,719 run the big schools or founded the big 2795 01:40:13,719 --> 01:40:14,219 schools, 2796 01:40:14,680 --> 01:40:16,600 and and this is what they said. You 2797 01:40:16,600 --> 01:40:18,439 know, that's why so in 02/2003, I actually 2798 01:40:18,439 --> 01:40:19,819 went to Clint Smith, 2799 01:40:20,279 --> 01:40:22,600 before he shut down Thunder Ranch one and 2800 01:40:22,600 --> 01:40:25,175 moved up to, Oregon, which which recently he 2801 01:40:25,175 --> 01:40:26,694 and Heidi have left and, 2802 01:40:27,414 --> 01:40:29,335 relocated and moved on to the next chapter. 2803 01:40:29,335 --> 01:40:31,175 But when he was shutting down Thunder Ranch, 2804 01:40:31,175 --> 01:40:33,255 Texas was when I was standing up Valhalla 2805 01:40:33,255 --> 01:40:34,934 Training Center. And I went down there, all 2806 01:40:34,934 --> 01:40:36,454 of this had just happened, and I'm like, 2807 01:40:36,454 --> 01:40:37,835 man, it's it's frustrating. 2808 01:40:38,375 --> 01:40:39,420 And And he goes well, let me tell 2809 01:40:39,420 --> 01:40:41,020 you something, and I'm not gonna try to 2810 01:40:41,020 --> 01:40:42,380 do the Clint voice, he goes but let 2811 01:40:42,380 --> 01:40:44,219 me tell you something, you know the rules, 2812 01:40:44,219 --> 01:40:46,699 the universal rules, those four rules that everybody 2813 01:40:46,699 --> 01:40:48,460 credits the gun site, which which he was 2814 01:40:48,460 --> 01:40:50,619 the original operations director of? He goes let 2815 01:40:50,619 --> 01:40:52,800 me tell you something, I painted the sign 2816 01:40:53,104 --> 01:40:53,925 with the original rules, 2817 01:40:54,784 --> 01:40:56,005 and there were only three, 2818 01:40:56,385 --> 01:40:58,465 and they were the rules for gun handling 2819 01:40:58,465 --> 01:40:59,364 during a gunfight. 2820 01:41:00,064 --> 01:41:02,625 They weren't the universal rules. They weren't what 2821 01:41:02,625 --> 01:41:04,704 people make them out to be today, and 2822 01:41:04,704 --> 01:41:07,045 that whole thing is misrepresented and misunderstood. 2823 01:41:07,505 --> 01:41:09,579 Now to be fair, he still uses 2824 01:41:10,199 --> 01:41:12,680 those rules on his range or derivation of 2825 01:41:12,680 --> 01:41:14,600 those rules on the range, and whether you 2826 01:41:14,600 --> 01:41:17,180 use the three rules or the four rules, 2827 01:41:17,399 --> 01:41:19,260 or even if you use our rules, 2828 01:41:19,720 --> 01:41:21,319 it all comes back to something you said 2829 01:41:21,319 --> 01:41:23,725 earlier is balancing risk and benefit. And if 2830 01:41:23,725 --> 01:41:25,805 you're not thinking about that in the moment 2831 01:41:25,805 --> 01:41:27,985 as the instructor or as the gun owner, 2832 01:41:28,284 --> 01:41:30,685 you can't turn around afterwards and say, Well, 2833 01:41:30,685 --> 01:41:31,425 the rules. 2834 01:41:32,364 --> 01:41:34,525 I'm sorry, that means your rules weren't good 2835 01:41:34,525 --> 01:41:35,025 enough. 2836 01:41:35,810 --> 01:41:37,569 And I say that sitting on a hammock 2837 01:41:37,569 --> 01:41:38,069 after 2838 01:41:38,609 --> 01:41:39,909 twenty five years 2839 01:41:40,289 --> 01:41:41,029 next month 2840 01:41:41,409 --> 01:41:43,590 of teaching as my primary profession, 2841 01:41:44,130 --> 01:41:45,970 and never had a student shoot themselves or 2842 01:41:45,970 --> 01:41:47,270 anybody else in a class. 2843 01:41:47,905 --> 01:41:50,145 And and it's the the operational tempo, so 2844 01:41:50,145 --> 01:41:51,505 to speak, that I've had, the number of 2845 01:41:51,505 --> 01:41:53,345 classes I've taught, you know, people told me 2846 01:41:53,345 --> 01:41:54,625 I shouldn't say that, I should knock on 2847 01:41:54,625 --> 01:41:56,385 wood or whatever, but I started saying it 2848 01:41:56,385 --> 01:41:57,845 about twenty years there, about 2849 01:41:58,225 --> 01:42:00,305 five years ago once I hit twenty years, 2850 01:42:00,305 --> 01:42:01,604 because it's worth celebrating. 2851 01:42:01,989 --> 01:42:03,909 And and and it should give guys like 2852 01:42:03,909 --> 01:42:05,770 you who have adopted this practice 2853 01:42:06,149 --> 01:42:08,710 some level of of confidence in it, and 2854 01:42:08,710 --> 01:42:10,630 knowing that there's other instructors out there who've 2855 01:42:10,630 --> 01:42:12,070 been going at it for a decade or 2856 01:42:12,070 --> 01:42:14,229 more who also have that kind of track 2857 01:42:14,229 --> 01:42:14,729 record, 2858 01:42:15,055 --> 01:42:17,795 that means something. Because most of the gurus 2859 01:42:17,854 --> 01:42:19,935 that people look up to who use the 2860 01:42:19,935 --> 01:42:20,435 rules 2861 01:42:20,975 --> 01:42:22,755 can't sit on a hammock and say that. 2862 01:42:22,895 --> 01:42:23,395 Mhmm. 2863 01:42:24,175 --> 01:42:27,314 Yeah. Well, not only that, I think it 2864 01:42:28,689 --> 01:42:30,309 if you took a class 2865 01:42:31,090 --> 01:42:32,789 if you take an IDS class, 2866 01:42:33,170 --> 01:42:35,329 you might, as an observer or even as 2867 01:42:35,329 --> 01:42:37,989 a student, might feel like there's something significantly 2868 01:42:38,130 --> 01:42:39,569 missing from the class. And I'll give you 2869 01:42:39,569 --> 01:42:40,229 an example. 2870 01:42:41,235 --> 01:42:43,235 I'm sure you've run into this. In your 2871 01:42:43,235 --> 01:42:46,114 classes, you're very specific about what you've told 2872 01:42:46,114 --> 01:42:48,114 them to do and what and not telling 2873 01:42:48,114 --> 01:42:49,475 them things that you don't want them to 2874 01:42:49,475 --> 01:42:51,555 do. And, you know, I'm I'm telling you 2875 01:42:51,555 --> 01:42:52,774 I want you to do this. 2876 01:42:53,199 --> 01:42:53,939 And then 2877 01:42:54,239 --> 01:42:56,319 everybody turns around to go reload mags, and 2878 01:42:56,319 --> 01:42:57,300 you hear somebody 2879 01:42:57,600 --> 01:42:59,280 on the line pointed the gun in the 2880 01:42:59,280 --> 01:43:01,859 right direction and everything unloading their gun. 2881 01:43:02,560 --> 01:43:04,000 And you turn around, hey. What the fuck 2882 01:43:04,000 --> 01:43:06,720 are you doing? Like, I'm I'm I'm unloading 2883 01:43:06,720 --> 01:43:08,159 my gun. Why? I didn't tell you to 2884 01:43:08,159 --> 01:43:10,135 unload the gun. And then they're like, well, 2885 01:43:10,135 --> 01:43:13,255 isn't it unsafe? So there's a perception that 2886 01:43:13,255 --> 01:43:14,235 there's a hole 2887 01:43:14,695 --> 01:43:17,595 in the program because this thing wasn't addressed 2888 01:43:18,215 --> 01:43:20,135 at the beginning of the class even though 2889 01:43:20,135 --> 01:43:22,135 it wasn't addressed. Tell them to that that's 2890 01:43:22,135 --> 01:43:24,029 a that's a cold range. I think the 2891 01:43:24,029 --> 01:43:26,050 I think the concept of a cold range 2892 01:43:26,109 --> 01:43:28,189 sets people up for failure. Yeah. Right? It's 2893 01:43:28,189 --> 01:43:29,949 like the whole idea. Like, you can't and 2894 01:43:29,949 --> 01:43:31,469 and the the problem is it's the it's 2895 01:43:31,469 --> 01:43:33,809 the lack of critical thinking or the hypocrisy 2896 01:43:34,510 --> 01:43:36,429 of the person who at at one time 2897 01:43:36,429 --> 01:43:38,645 says, treat every gun as if it's loaded 2898 01:43:38,704 --> 01:43:40,804 all the time, every time, no matter what. 2899 01:43:40,944 --> 01:43:42,944 And then also accepts the concept of a 2900 01:43:42,944 --> 01:43:43,764 cold range. 2901 01:43:44,064 --> 01:43:45,364 Right? It's like that infamous 2902 01:43:45,744 --> 01:43:47,824 there was that that n d heard around 2903 01:43:47,824 --> 01:43:50,280 the entire instructor community by one of the 2904 01:43:50,280 --> 01:43:52,359 gurus. Again, guy who's brought a lot to 2905 01:43:52,359 --> 01:43:54,520 our community, been teaching since the nineties as 2906 01:43:54,520 --> 01:43:55,020 well, 2907 01:43:55,560 --> 01:43:58,539 and he fires around up into the sky 2908 01:43:59,159 --> 01:44:00,760 trying to show people how to press a 2909 01:44:00,760 --> 01:44:03,560 trigger properly on a double action revolver with 2910 01:44:03,560 --> 01:44:04,460 20 something 2911 01:44:04,875 --> 01:44:05,614 supposed instructors, 2912 01:44:06,715 --> 01:44:08,474 six sorry. I think six or seven of 2913 01:44:08,474 --> 01:44:10,875 his instructor staff there, and then a bunch 2914 01:44:10,875 --> 01:44:12,014 of instructor candidates 2915 01:44:12,474 --> 01:44:16,074 watching him with a revolver, which you usually 2916 01:44:16,074 --> 01:44:17,375 can tell if it's loaded, 2917 01:44:17,949 --> 01:44:20,510 supposedly watching his trigger press, watching that cylinder 2918 01:44:20,510 --> 01:44:22,590 turn, watching the hammer come back, and the 2919 01:44:22,590 --> 01:44:24,590 round goes off into the sky. And then 2920 01:44:24,590 --> 01:44:26,590 afterwards, instead of saying, yeah, that was totally 2921 01:44:26,590 --> 01:44:29,069 fucked up, saying, oh, well, we had the, 2922 01:44:29,069 --> 01:44:31,309 what, fourth or fifth level of safety in 2923 01:44:31,309 --> 01:44:33,250 play because we were in a remote area. 2924 01:44:33,765 --> 01:44:36,244 Fuck up. Like, come on, man. Like, I 2925 01:44:36,244 --> 01:44:38,005 love you. I'll buy you a beer. I 2926 01:44:38,005 --> 01:44:40,645 have bought you a beer, but that no. 2927 01:44:40,645 --> 01:44:42,324 We can't be saying things like that. Sometimes 2928 01:44:42,324 --> 01:44:43,765 we just have to say, yeah. We missed 2929 01:44:43,765 --> 01:44:46,404 it. We screwed up. That was bad. Glad 2930 01:44:46,404 --> 01:44:49,270 no one died. Don't follow my example. And 2931 01:44:49,270 --> 01:44:51,270 it was all based on the idea that 2932 01:44:51,270 --> 01:44:52,949 he thought the range was cold. And he 2933 01:44:52,949 --> 01:44:54,650 didn't know that one of his instructors 2934 01:44:55,270 --> 01:44:57,449 had been working with somebody else on reloads, 2935 01:44:57,590 --> 01:44:59,670 loaded her gun, and then handed it to 2936 01:44:59,670 --> 01:45:01,904 him for a demo without then unloading it. 2937 01:45:01,984 --> 01:45:03,824 But it was a cold range, so there 2938 01:45:03,824 --> 01:45:05,744 was no way that could happen. Mhmm. And 2939 01:45:05,744 --> 01:45:08,224 that's that's the freaking problem. But and again, 2940 01:45:08,224 --> 01:45:09,784 one of the guys who says always treat 2941 01:45:09,784 --> 01:45:11,505 a gun as it's loaded, but also we're 2942 01:45:11,505 --> 01:45:13,204 gonna have a cold range. It's like, 2943 01:45:13,744 --> 01:45:16,550 you're not thinking. Right. And you're you're defaulting 2944 01:45:16,609 --> 01:45:18,310 to a non thinking pattern. 2945 01:45:19,090 --> 01:45:21,030 That to me is how people get hurt. 2946 01:45:21,170 --> 01:45:23,350 So you call cold range, and then 2947 01:45:23,729 --> 01:45:25,570 you you're like, this is a cold range. 2948 01:45:25,570 --> 01:45:26,088 So then you walk in front of everybody 2949 01:45:26,088 --> 01:45:26,149 instead of thinking to yourself, everybody on this 2950 01:45:26,149 --> 01:45:26,210 line has a gun, and I need to 2951 01:45:26,210 --> 01:45:26,869 make sure 2952 01:45:27,375 --> 01:45:27,875 instead 2953 01:45:28,574 --> 01:45:30,574 of thinking to yourself, everybody on this line 2954 01:45:30,574 --> 01:45:31,481 has a gun, and I need to make 2955 01:45:31,481 --> 01:45:32,574 sure every gun's in the holster before I 2956 01:45:32,574 --> 01:45:34,194 walk in front of everybody. 2957 01:45:35,774 --> 01:45:37,534 Because we're not treating the range as cold, 2958 01:45:37,534 --> 01:45:39,375 I'm looking at your behavior and saying, is 2959 01:45:39,375 --> 01:45:41,314 this thing I'm about to do safe enough 2960 01:45:42,260 --> 01:45:44,340 given, you know, what we can see what's 2961 01:45:44,340 --> 01:45:46,340 going on right now? So Yeah. Yeah. There's 2962 01:45:46,340 --> 01:45:48,020 a pattern, and people get into patterns, you 2963 01:45:48,020 --> 01:45:49,699 know, that that cold and range thing. I 2964 01:45:49,699 --> 01:45:50,680 was at a conference, 2965 01:45:51,539 --> 01:45:52,840 couple few years ago 2966 01:45:53,219 --> 01:45:54,039 as a student. 2967 01:45:54,864 --> 01:45:56,225 I was like I was like a captain 2968 01:45:56,225 --> 01:45:57,345 of a group. We were doing, like, a 2969 01:45:57,345 --> 01:45:58,945 round robin. So I was like I I 2970 01:45:58,945 --> 01:46:01,505 had taught there previously a couple years, and 2971 01:46:01,505 --> 01:46:02,465 I was there. I don't I think I 2972 01:46:02,465 --> 01:46:03,905 might have been teaching on another day or 2973 01:46:03,905 --> 01:46:05,265 lecturing or something. But on this day, I 2974 01:46:05,265 --> 01:46:06,864 was a captain of a group. So I 2975 01:46:06,864 --> 01:46:08,645 brought the group to another instructor. 2976 01:46:09,390 --> 01:46:11,069 I knew he was a new instructor, but 2977 01:46:11,069 --> 01:46:12,750 I did not know that it was literally 2978 01:46:12,750 --> 01:46:14,909 his first time teaching. So here he is 2979 01:46:14,909 --> 01:46:16,590 invited to a conference and put up on 2980 01:46:16,590 --> 01:46:18,909 a pedestal, and he's going through the motions 2981 01:46:18,909 --> 01:46:20,590 of his class, and the girl next to 2982 01:46:20,590 --> 01:46:22,875 me had a, malfunction. And she didn't know 2983 01:46:22,875 --> 01:46:24,635 how to clear it. It was beginners, and 2984 01:46:24,635 --> 01:46:26,555 and everybody knew this was a group of 2985 01:46:26,555 --> 01:46:28,715 beginners in this group, right, except for the 2986 01:46:28,715 --> 01:46:29,454 team captains. 2987 01:46:29,914 --> 01:46:32,154 And the guy looks over. He sees the 2988 01:46:32,154 --> 01:46:33,515 girl with a gun in his hand. He 2989 01:46:33,515 --> 01:46:35,569 is walking out to give his lecture. He 2990 01:46:35,569 --> 01:46:37,250 looks over, looks right at her, goes back 2991 01:46:37,250 --> 01:46:38,689 to his lecture, but kinda looks at it 2992 01:46:38,850 --> 01:46:41,250 looks double takes. And I'm like, hey, dude. 2993 01:46:41,250 --> 01:46:42,630 She's still she's got a malfunction. 2994 01:46:43,090 --> 01:46:44,310 He's like, okay. 2995 01:46:44,850 --> 01:46:46,069 Can you help her with that? 2996 01:46:46,770 --> 01:46:48,930 Alright. And goes back to his lecture. And 2997 01:46:48,930 --> 01:46:50,069 I'm like, you're downrange, 2998 01:46:50,369 --> 01:46:50,869 man. 2999 01:46:51,694 --> 01:46:53,875 You can't be there. And then then, subsequently, 3000 01:46:54,175 --> 01:46:56,654 two of his two students had NDs within 3001 01:46:56,654 --> 01:46:58,895 the next half hour. And I finally then 3002 01:46:58,895 --> 01:47:00,414 I called the range call. I said, alright. 3003 01:47:00,414 --> 01:47:01,854 Stop. This is out of control. And then, 3004 01:47:01,854 --> 01:47:03,055 of course, I got in trouble, and now 3005 01:47:03,055 --> 01:47:04,595 I'm not invited back to that conference. 3006 01:47:05,239 --> 01:47:06,760 I I because I told the guy I 3007 01:47:06,760 --> 01:47:08,220 told the guy he just had to stop. 3008 01:47:08,280 --> 01:47:11,500 Isaac and I were the group before you, 3009 01:47:11,560 --> 01:47:13,720 and and we we warmed him up. Oh, 3010 01:47:13,720 --> 01:47:15,659 that's right. I forgot you guys were there. 3011 01:47:15,720 --> 01:47:18,039 Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's what you were oh, 3012 01:47:18,039 --> 01:47:18,939 yeah. I, 3013 01:47:19,485 --> 01:47:22,045 I remember that. Isaac Isaac seen me go 3014 01:47:22,045 --> 01:47:23,505 at it with him before 3015 01:47:23,965 --> 01:47:26,125 you guys had an ND. Yeah. That guy 3016 01:47:26,125 --> 01:47:28,045 had a rough day. Well, and and and 3017 01:47:28,045 --> 01:47:29,965 this is this is the the the big 3018 01:47:29,965 --> 01:47:31,805 issue that I've always had. When I first 3019 01:47:31,805 --> 01:47:33,899 became an instructor, one of the very first 3020 01:47:33,899 --> 01:47:36,619 things that I questioned was how the gun 3021 01:47:36,619 --> 01:47:38,000 industry approaches safety. 3022 01:47:38,380 --> 01:47:40,939 And every instructor that I search for, and 3023 01:47:40,939 --> 01:47:42,939 this is why I'm always grateful for for 3024 01:47:42,939 --> 01:47:45,119 how open you were and and how receptive 3025 01:47:45,179 --> 01:47:47,500 you were of us in spite of us 3026 01:47:47,500 --> 01:47:48,319 being crazy, 3027 01:47:49,414 --> 01:47:51,494 is every instructor I would ask that was 3028 01:47:51,494 --> 01:47:53,994 ahead of me, the the previous generation, 3029 01:47:54,295 --> 01:47:55,114 quote, unquote, 3030 01:47:55,574 --> 01:47:57,335 what about the rules? Like, they it doesn't 3031 01:47:57,335 --> 01:47:59,015 make sense to me. It doesn't make sense 3032 01:47:59,015 --> 01:48:00,635 the way we approach them because 3033 01:48:00,960 --> 01:48:02,800 I just clean my Glock, and and one 3034 01:48:02,800 --> 01:48:04,079 of the things I did was press the 3035 01:48:04,079 --> 01:48:04,579 trigger 3036 01:48:04,960 --> 01:48:06,800 and that that's it's just small shit like 3037 01:48:06,800 --> 01:48:08,880 that. It seems like we're okay with just 3038 01:48:08,880 --> 01:48:09,380 regurgitation 3039 01:48:09,920 --> 01:48:11,439 in the say just for the sake of 3040 01:48:11,439 --> 01:48:11,939 tradition. 3041 01:48:12,319 --> 01:48:14,260 Well, that's that's what they did before. 3042 01:48:14,564 --> 01:48:16,085 And then this is how you have this 3043 01:48:16,085 --> 01:48:16,824 new instructor 3044 01:48:17,204 --> 01:48:19,204 set up for failure. It's probably not even 3045 01:48:19,204 --> 01:48:20,645 his fault. I mean, he was the tar 3046 01:48:20,645 --> 01:48:23,125 that did fucking retarded shit, but he was 3047 01:48:23,125 --> 01:48:24,425 taught that way. He was 3048 01:48:24,805 --> 01:48:26,484 he was led that way. He was led 3049 01:48:26,484 --> 01:48:27,145 to believe, 3050 01:48:27,780 --> 01:48:30,500 regurgitate the information, and and you'll be you'll 3051 01:48:30,500 --> 01:48:31,319 be just fine. 3052 01:48:31,619 --> 01:48:32,979 I did not know that was his first 3053 01:48:32,979 --> 01:48:33,800 day teaching. 3054 01:48:34,420 --> 01:48:36,899 Literally his first day teaching. Talk about getting 3055 01:48:36,899 --> 01:48:39,460 set up. Yeah. You have Edgar come through 3056 01:48:39,460 --> 01:48:40,395 first and then 3057 01:48:42,795 --> 01:48:43,994 And then and then it was that, oh, 3058 01:48:43,994 --> 01:48:45,354 you know, that guy really looked up to 3059 01:48:45,354 --> 01:48:47,114 you. He can't and and then you embarrassed 3060 01:48:47,114 --> 01:48:49,354 him. Hey, man. I did not said I 3061 01:48:49,354 --> 01:48:50,814 didn't put him on that stage. 3062 01:48:51,114 --> 01:48:53,100 I tried to pull him off. I tried 3063 01:48:53,100 --> 01:48:55,979 to do it politely, quietly with little hints 3064 01:48:55,979 --> 01:48:57,739 along the way, but then at some point, 3065 01:48:57,739 --> 01:48:59,659 it it just it turned into, no. Everyone 3066 01:48:59,659 --> 01:49:02,780 stop. You're not safe here. He's not taking 3067 01:49:02,780 --> 01:49:05,280 care of you. He's not meeting his responsibility 3068 01:49:05,420 --> 01:49:06,320 as an instructor. 3069 01:49:07,905 --> 01:49:09,345 And then then it was bad. But it's 3070 01:49:09,345 --> 01:49:10,244 like, you know, 3071 01:49:10,784 --> 01:49:13,585 could that have been handled differently? Well, no. 3072 01:49:13,585 --> 01:49:15,925 Honestly. Like, I gave him three hints. 3073 01:49:16,305 --> 01:49:18,064 He was he kept walking in front of 3074 01:49:18,064 --> 01:49:20,250 students with guns in their hands. He kept 3075 01:49:20,250 --> 01:49:22,649 challenging students to quick draw that had never 3076 01:49:22,649 --> 01:49:24,989 presented from the holster before on a timer 3077 01:49:25,210 --> 01:49:27,609 in some made up drill. He demoed the 3078 01:49:27,609 --> 01:49:29,609 drill and did it really fast, but didn't 3079 01:49:29,609 --> 01:49:30,430 hit the target. 3080 01:49:32,170 --> 01:49:34,109 Like, there everything was wrong. 3081 01:49:34,569 --> 01:49:36,765 It's like, man. Well, so I So yeah. 3082 01:49:36,765 --> 01:49:37,265 So 3083 01:49:37,805 --> 01:49:39,484 I just I I use I I guess 3084 01:49:39,484 --> 01:49:40,765 the reason I bring up a couple of 3085 01:49:40,765 --> 01:49:41,585 those examples, 3086 01:49:42,204 --> 01:49:43,104 it it it's 3087 01:49:43,805 --> 01:49:45,725 the other another big example is and a 3088 01:49:45,725 --> 01:49:47,005 lot of people know this one about the 3089 01:49:47,005 --> 01:49:48,704 instructor who shot his AI, 3090 01:49:49,030 --> 01:49:49,770 like, multiple times 3091 01:49:50,710 --> 01:49:51,770 in a shoot house 3092 01:49:52,070 --> 01:49:54,470 because he wanted to get a run-in after 3093 01:49:54,470 --> 01:49:56,070 all the students, and he ran into the 3094 01:49:56,070 --> 01:49:58,070 shoot house and didn't realize his assistant instructor 3095 01:49:58,070 --> 01:50:00,250 was inside the shoot house setting up targets. 3096 01:50:00,710 --> 01:50:02,789 And it was like, that came from this 3097 01:50:02,789 --> 01:50:04,904 demo because this the other people were like, 3098 01:50:04,904 --> 01:50:06,904 well, how fast can you do the run? 3099 01:50:06,904 --> 01:50:08,344 Mhmm. So he wanted to go in and 3100 01:50:08,344 --> 01:50:10,344 do the run so so he could tell 3101 01:50:10,344 --> 01:50:12,444 his students how fast he could do it. 3102 01:50:15,145 --> 01:50:15,645 Oh, 3103 01:50:17,260 --> 01:50:18,880 phone died. Phone died. 3104 01:50:19,659 --> 01:50:21,619 Phone died. Oh, he's back. Oh, oh, okay. 3105 01:50:21,619 --> 01:50:23,979 I'm back. Yeah. No. Anastasia's like, why haven't 3106 01:50:23,979 --> 01:50:25,340 you come back down to the I'm up 3107 01:50:25,340 --> 01:50:26,900 on the hilltop. She expected me back down 3108 01:50:26,900 --> 01:50:28,619 at the house. I'm trying I'm hanging out 3109 01:50:28,619 --> 01:50:29,820 with you guys. So it was, 3110 01:50:30,595 --> 01:50:32,114 yeah. But but do people get into these 3111 01:50:32,114 --> 01:50:34,534 habits of of this is okay to do? 3112 01:50:34,755 --> 01:50:36,914 Mhmm. It's o and and I'm the instructor. 3113 01:50:36,914 --> 01:50:38,774 It's okay for me to cut corners. 3114 01:50:39,074 --> 01:50:41,635 Mhmm. I'm the I'm the instructor. I'm doing 3115 01:50:41,635 --> 01:50:43,234 what I was taught to do or told 3116 01:50:43,234 --> 01:50:45,350 to do. Yeah. Yeah. 3117 01:50:46,529 --> 01:50:49,090 So Joseph has a question. How many hours 3118 01:50:49,090 --> 01:50:51,090 of training should instructors get, and how many 3119 01:50:51,090 --> 01:50:53,989 hours under another instructor before going solo? 3120 01:50:54,369 --> 01:50:56,529 Relevant topic since we're talking about somebody who 3121 01:50:56,529 --> 01:50:58,550 was flying solo for the first time. 3122 01:50:59,564 --> 01:51:02,125 Yeah. Unfortunately, it's a very subjective thing. I 3123 01:51:02,125 --> 01:51:03,805 don't think there's a magic answer. Right? It's 3124 01:51:03,805 --> 01:51:05,965 it's kinda like when people say, well, I 3125 01:51:05,965 --> 01:51:07,104 mean, I've sat in 3126 01:51:07,564 --> 01:51:08,305 the the 3127 01:51:09,164 --> 01:51:12,010 legislative halls with you guys test testifying 3128 01:51:12,470 --> 01:51:13,210 in committees 3129 01:51:13,510 --> 01:51:15,110 about the fact that you can't draw a 3130 01:51:15,110 --> 01:51:17,430 line and say students should have twelve hours 3131 01:51:17,430 --> 01:51:19,110 of training. Students should have eight hours of 3132 01:51:19,110 --> 01:51:20,470 training before they can carry a gun in 3133 01:51:20,470 --> 01:51:22,550 public. Some students are gonna need more than 3134 01:51:22,550 --> 01:51:24,585 that. Some students aren't gonna need that much. 3135 01:51:24,824 --> 01:51:25,225 Right? 3136 01:51:25,704 --> 01:51:27,484 And that's why it it's freedom. 3137 01:51:27,944 --> 01:51:30,185 And freedom isn't safe, and we need to 3138 01:51:30,185 --> 01:51:31,965 encourage people to meet their responsibility 3139 01:51:32,585 --> 01:51:33,885 to truly be prepared 3140 01:51:34,265 --> 01:51:36,344 if they're gonna and responsibly prepared if they're 3141 01:51:36,344 --> 01:51:37,784 gonna carry a gut in public. I think 3142 01:51:37,784 --> 01:51:40,640 it's the same thing. We as certifying instructors 3143 01:51:41,260 --> 01:51:43,340 need to make sure that that person, in 3144 01:51:43,340 --> 01:51:46,460 our eyes, is capable of taking responsibility for 3145 01:51:46,460 --> 01:51:48,060 what happens on a range with all the 3146 01:51:48,060 --> 01:51:50,239 variables that go with that. And that's why, 3147 01:51:50,300 --> 01:51:52,159 I don't know, ten, twelve years ago, 3148 01:51:52,564 --> 01:51:56,024 we instituted the requirement to team teach before 3149 01:51:56,244 --> 01:51:58,564 any of our certified instructors can be put 3150 01:51:58,564 --> 01:52:00,725 in what we call active status and and 3151 01:52:00,725 --> 01:52:03,765 advertise themselves as certified IDS or at the 3152 01:52:03,765 --> 01:52:05,064 time CFS instructors, 3153 01:52:05,364 --> 01:52:06,744 we need to make sure that. 3154 01:52:07,979 --> 01:52:09,979 Whether I'm signing off on them, Edgar is, 3155 01:52:09,979 --> 01:52:12,159 Derek, whoever is signing off on these people, 3156 01:52:12,619 --> 01:52:14,859 we again, I take responsibility for that. If 3157 01:52:14,859 --> 01:52:16,239 I've signed off on somebody, 3158 01:52:16,619 --> 01:52:18,880 that means I think they can handle it. 3159 01:52:19,145 --> 01:52:20,744 Right? And, and I don't put a time 3160 01:52:20,744 --> 01:52:22,344 limit on that. I, and we make it, 3161 01:52:22,344 --> 01:52:23,625 as you guys know, we make it very 3162 01:52:23,625 --> 01:52:25,725 clear when people come to our instructor course, 3163 01:52:25,784 --> 01:52:27,704 they're not gonna have a shooting test to 3164 01:52:27,704 --> 01:52:29,784 take at the end of it that denotes 3165 01:52:29,784 --> 01:52:32,104 they're good enough shooters to teach a class. 3166 01:52:32,104 --> 01:52:33,704 I mean, that's what it usually is, and 3167 01:52:33,704 --> 01:52:34,444 that's ridiculous. 3168 01:52:35,039 --> 01:52:37,539 Right? Even if they pass the written test, 3169 01:52:38,000 --> 01:52:40,159 they have a subjective teaching test they have 3170 01:52:40,159 --> 01:52:41,599 to do to convince us they know how 3171 01:52:41,599 --> 01:52:44,340 to convey the information to other people. 3172 01:52:44,880 --> 01:52:46,399 And then even if they pass both of 3173 01:52:46,399 --> 01:52:48,800 those tests and meet the requirements, quote, unquote, 3174 01:52:48,800 --> 01:52:49,539 for certification, 3175 01:52:50,524 --> 01:52:51,965 they still have to team teach with a 3176 01:52:51,965 --> 01:52:54,145 senior instructor, and there's no promise 3177 01:52:54,524 --> 01:52:56,685 that the first time you'll get cut loose 3178 01:52:56,685 --> 01:52:58,364 on your own. It may be two, three, 3179 01:52:58,364 --> 01:53:00,685 five. We've had instructors go at it for 3180 01:53:00,685 --> 01:53:02,444 years before they get certified. And some of 3181 01:53:02,444 --> 01:53:04,545 our best instructors, I think, in the program 3182 01:53:04,810 --> 01:53:06,969 are ones that earned it, that put the 3183 01:53:06,969 --> 01:53:08,729 time, effort, and energy in and and did 3184 01:53:08,729 --> 01:53:10,329 a lot of team teaching before they went 3185 01:53:10,329 --> 01:53:11,310 off on their own. 3186 01:53:11,689 --> 01:53:13,449 Yeah. Do you yeah. I think What do 3187 01:53:13,449 --> 01:53:14,270 you think, Edgar? 3188 01:53:15,210 --> 01:53:17,604 Yeah. I I that's that that that'd be 3189 01:53:17,604 --> 01:53:19,925 my answer. This idea of there needs to 3190 01:53:19,925 --> 01:53:21,145 be this level of, 3191 01:53:23,524 --> 01:53:24,824 five men five 3192 01:53:25,204 --> 01:53:27,784 classes before you do the stuff, and and 3193 01:53:27,925 --> 01:53:30,185 it it just doesn't it never makes sense. 3194 01:53:31,050 --> 01:53:34,010 They're they're students. There's instructors who who get 3195 01:53:34,010 --> 01:53:34,670 it off 3196 01:53:35,689 --> 01:53:38,090 fucking almost instantly, and then there's others who 3197 01:53:38,090 --> 01:53:38,989 who need 3198 01:53:39,530 --> 01:53:42,590 a lot of work. So it it's 100% 3199 01:53:42,810 --> 01:53:43,949 very, very subjective. 3200 01:53:44,649 --> 01:53:45,869 It it can't be 3201 01:53:46,635 --> 01:53:49,534 objective. It can't be due twenty hours or 3202 01:53:49,994 --> 01:53:52,074 because then that very easily leads to pay 3203 01:53:52,074 --> 01:53:52,654 to play. 3204 01:53:53,354 --> 01:53:54,814 As long as you pay me Sure. 3205 01:53:55,835 --> 01:53:58,314 Then then you're you're good to go. Very 3206 01:53:58,314 --> 01:54:00,474 clearly to to for Joseph, I I think 3207 01:54:00,474 --> 01:54:03,069 that if the program doesn't require 3208 01:54:04,969 --> 01:54:07,229 demonstration of an ability to teach, 3209 01:54:09,529 --> 01:54:11,210 then I think I think there's a problem. 3210 01:54:11,210 --> 01:54:13,469 If it's just a skill demonstration 3211 01:54:14,090 --> 01:54:16,954 or just a you hear the lecture and 3212 01:54:16,954 --> 01:54:18,795 you get the certificate because you were in 3213 01:54:18,795 --> 01:54:20,414 attendance, I think there's a problem. 3214 01:54:21,354 --> 01:54:23,854 I I have a a problem with organizations 3215 01:54:24,154 --> 01:54:24,654 that 3216 01:54:25,354 --> 01:54:27,215 give people instructor credentials 3217 01:54:28,650 --> 01:54:29,470 that imply 3218 01:54:29,930 --> 01:54:32,570 that they're live fire instructors when really they're 3219 01:54:32,570 --> 01:54:34,270 just PowerPoint instructors 3220 01:54:35,050 --> 01:54:37,229 that are that are now capable of 3221 01:54:38,329 --> 01:54:41,130 supervising a lecture, administrating a test, or reading 3222 01:54:41,130 --> 01:54:43,210 off a PowerPoint, or or whatever to a 3223 01:54:43,210 --> 01:54:43,710 group, 3224 01:54:44,784 --> 01:54:46,385 and that's been a a problem. I I 3225 01:54:46,385 --> 01:54:47,764 have a problem with 3226 01:54:48,385 --> 01:54:49,684 lowest common denominator 3227 01:54:50,064 --> 01:54:50,564 standards. 3228 01:54:51,664 --> 01:54:53,104 What I don't have a problem with and 3229 01:54:53,104 --> 01:54:54,385 let's go back to the the first part 3230 01:54:54,385 --> 01:54:55,904 of the hour you guys had or the 3231 01:54:55,904 --> 01:54:57,344 the first part of your two hours here 3232 01:54:57,344 --> 01:54:58,885 you had with your your buddy 3233 01:54:59,510 --> 01:55:01,909 on the requirements to become an instructor from 3234 01:55:01,909 --> 01:55:02,649 the government. 3235 01:55:03,829 --> 01:55:05,750 I don't I don't acknowledge that such a 3236 01:55:05,750 --> 01:55:08,469 thing is is appropriate. Right? Because again, freedom 3237 01:55:08,469 --> 01:55:10,390 isn't safe. I don't I think that we 3238 01:55:10,390 --> 01:55:12,969 as the private sector need to be discerning 3239 01:55:13,189 --> 01:55:15,345 in terms of who we choose, who we 3240 01:55:15,345 --> 01:55:15,845 endorse, 3241 01:55:16,225 --> 01:55:18,704 who we empower as instructors, but I don't 3242 01:55:18,704 --> 01:55:20,645 think the government should be involved at all. 3243 01:55:20,784 --> 01:55:22,385 And I think that's where the trick comes 3244 01:55:22,385 --> 01:55:24,545 in. Right? It's like, wait, Rob. You're saying 3245 01:55:24,545 --> 01:55:26,065 somebody has to jump through all these hoops 3246 01:55:26,065 --> 01:55:28,244 and reach these high levels and be 3247 01:55:28,625 --> 01:55:29,125 trustable 3248 01:55:29,710 --> 01:55:30,429 with human 3249 01:55:30,750 --> 01:55:33,389 human lives and responsibility for those lives. But 3250 01:55:33,389 --> 01:55:34,750 at the same time, you don't think the 3251 01:55:34,750 --> 01:55:36,529 sheriff should be able to see the curriculum? 3252 01:55:36,989 --> 01:55:37,489 Yes. 3253 01:55:37,789 --> 01:55:40,670 And that's that's if that's nuanced, if that's 3254 01:55:40,670 --> 01:55:41,170 complicated, 3255 01:55:41,725 --> 01:55:44,524 I apologize. But yes. One more thing about 3256 01:55:44,524 --> 01:55:45,824 Joseph's question. I think, 3257 01:55:46,604 --> 01:55:47,425 a responsible 3258 01:55:47,965 --> 01:55:48,465 and, 3259 01:55:49,404 --> 01:55:50,944 yeah, a responsible instructor 3260 01:55:51,484 --> 01:55:53,984 really is gonna seek out good mentors. 3261 01:55:54,409 --> 01:55:56,170 And so when it's how many hours of 3262 01:55:56,170 --> 01:55:57,470 training, it's like, well, 3263 01:55:57,930 --> 01:56:00,250 really, is it are they are they taking 3264 01:56:00,250 --> 01:56:02,090 on the role of as as an instructor 3265 01:56:02,090 --> 01:56:03,310 as a student first 3266 01:56:03,850 --> 01:56:06,409 and and working to be the best student 3267 01:56:06,409 --> 01:56:07,390 that they can be 3268 01:56:07,725 --> 01:56:10,524 under the mentors that they have found and 3269 01:56:10,524 --> 01:56:11,585 and find appropriate. 3270 01:56:12,685 --> 01:56:14,604 And, you know, the IDS program has that. 3271 01:56:14,604 --> 01:56:16,125 And I've talked to a handful of other 3272 01:56:16,125 --> 01:56:16,625 instructors 3273 01:56:17,085 --> 01:56:19,324 that won't let anybody teach with them until 3274 01:56:19,324 --> 01:56:21,005 they've mentored them for a little while. And 3275 01:56:21,005 --> 01:56:22,439 I think, you know, I might not agree 3276 01:56:22,439 --> 01:56:23,420 with what you're teaching 3277 01:56:23,720 --> 01:56:26,779 necessarily, but I think the student the instructor 3278 01:56:26,840 --> 01:56:30,380 mentor relationship is really important in this context. 3279 01:56:32,039 --> 01:56:34,279 It is. You know, historically, in the private 3280 01:56:34,279 --> 01:56:36,604 sector, it used to be like an apprenticeship. 3281 01:56:36,664 --> 01:56:38,264 Right? So go back to gun site. Gun 3282 01:56:38,264 --> 01:56:40,184 site's the birthplace of the private sector training 3283 01:56:40,184 --> 01:56:42,744 industry. They would have people go through all 3284 01:56:42,744 --> 01:56:44,904 their, like, you know, two, three, four levels 3285 01:56:44,904 --> 01:56:46,824 of classes. And if they made it through 3286 01:56:46,824 --> 01:56:48,904 all those classes, which which meant they were 3287 01:56:48,904 --> 01:56:51,119 a good shooter, a good gun handler, good 3288 01:56:51,119 --> 01:56:52,560 at the drills, because they would have to 3289 01:56:52,560 --> 01:56:54,960 pass they had, like, pass fail type classes 3290 01:56:54,960 --> 01:56:56,960 back in the day. Then eventually, people would 3291 01:56:56,960 --> 01:56:57,699 be invited 3292 01:56:58,079 --> 01:56:58,739 to become 3293 01:56:59,119 --> 01:57:00,800 instructors. And if they were gonna be invited 3294 01:57:00,800 --> 01:57:02,560 to become instructors, then there was a process 3295 01:57:02,560 --> 01:57:04,020 of being an assistant instructor, 3296 01:57:04,414 --> 01:57:06,654 and then being a lead instructor. And then 3297 01:57:06,654 --> 01:57:08,734 at one point at gun sight, really, like, 3298 01:57:08,734 --> 01:57:11,694 their business model revolved around students that became 3299 01:57:11,694 --> 01:57:12,194 instructors 3300 01:57:12,654 --> 01:57:14,994 that were certified to teach gun sight curriculum 3301 01:57:15,534 --> 01:57:17,969 back at home, and then they would spend, 3302 01:57:17,969 --> 01:57:20,050 you know, a couple weeks every year teaching 3303 01:57:20,050 --> 01:57:22,210 also back at Mecca, back at at the 3304 01:57:22,210 --> 01:57:23,189 gun site facility. 3305 01:57:23,809 --> 01:57:25,649 That's not that's not currently what they're doing, 3306 01:57:25,649 --> 01:57:26,770 and they haven't done that for a while. 3307 01:57:26,770 --> 01:57:28,130 But that for a long time was how 3308 01:57:28,130 --> 01:57:30,494 they they ran the place. And that created 3309 01:57:30,494 --> 01:57:32,255 a lot of instructors who were teaching that 3310 01:57:32,255 --> 01:57:34,354 quote unquote modern technique curriculum 3311 01:57:34,814 --> 01:57:35,715 around the country, 3312 01:57:36,095 --> 01:57:38,814 and they had come through an experience of 3313 01:57:38,814 --> 01:57:40,735 of many, many, many hours on the range 3314 01:57:40,735 --> 01:57:42,515 as a student watching other instructors, 3315 01:57:42,850 --> 01:57:45,649 watching different instructors teach the same curriculum, then 3316 01:57:45,649 --> 01:57:46,949 assisting with the curriculum, 3317 01:57:47,329 --> 01:57:49,569 then teaching the curriculum under supervision, and then 3318 01:57:49,569 --> 01:57:51,250 eventually getting cut loose to teach it on 3319 01:57:51,250 --> 01:57:52,630 their own. And 3320 01:57:53,010 --> 01:57:54,149 then when 3321 01:57:55,685 --> 01:57:58,484 training stopped being a hobby, honestly, in the 3322 01:57:58,484 --> 01:58:00,505 nineties in this country when 3323 01:58:00,885 --> 01:58:03,545 we had the growth of shall issue carry. 3324 01:58:03,604 --> 01:58:05,465 When we had the concealed carry revolution 3325 01:58:05,765 --> 01:58:06,904 and the shall issue 3326 01:58:07,380 --> 01:58:09,699 swept across the country, all of a sudden 3327 01:58:09,699 --> 01:58:12,659 people needed to train, and that meant we 3328 01:58:12,659 --> 01:58:13,560 needed instructors. 3329 01:58:13,939 --> 01:58:16,579 Because before that, training really was a hobby 3330 01:58:16,579 --> 01:58:18,100 in this country. There weren't a lot of 3331 01:58:18,100 --> 01:58:20,340 people out there training in the way that 3332 01:58:20,340 --> 01:58:22,020 you see people today saying, hey, I bought 3333 01:58:22,020 --> 01:58:23,835 a gun. I wanna carry it. I don't 3334 01:58:23,835 --> 01:58:25,354 wanna be a gun guy. I don't wanna 3335 01:58:25,354 --> 01:58:26,954 have the patches. I don't wanna be part 3336 01:58:26,954 --> 01:58:28,394 of your group. I don't care about your 3337 01:58:28,394 --> 01:58:30,154 politics. I just want the training so I 3338 01:58:30,154 --> 01:58:31,994 can defend myself or my family if I 3339 01:58:31,994 --> 01:58:34,554 need to. Those people are real, and they 3340 01:58:34,554 --> 01:58:36,750 are the ones that have required the growth 3341 01:58:36,829 --> 01:58:38,590 of the training community as we know it 3342 01:58:38,590 --> 01:58:40,590 today that's happened over the last twenty or 3343 01:58:40,590 --> 01:58:42,210 thirty years. Unfortunately, 3344 01:58:43,149 --> 01:58:44,750 at the beginning of that, we had a 3345 01:58:44,750 --> 01:58:46,850 lot of lowest common denominator instructors, 3346 01:58:48,109 --> 01:58:50,109 go through an NRA two or three day 3347 01:58:50,109 --> 01:58:50,609 course, 3348 01:58:50,909 --> 01:58:52,130 meet the state requirements, 3349 01:58:52,905 --> 01:58:54,045 teach a regurgitated, 3350 01:58:54,345 --> 01:58:56,524 very simple target shooting class, 3351 01:58:57,145 --> 01:58:58,585 recite, you know, the gun law, which I 3352 01:58:58,585 --> 01:59:00,265 think is the most important part of a 3353 01:59:00,265 --> 01:59:02,604 concealed carry permit classes that people are familiarized 3354 01:59:02,744 --> 01:59:05,145 with the dues and don't. Because we know 3355 01:59:05,145 --> 01:59:06,869 the live fire portions are trash. 3356 01:59:07,350 --> 01:59:09,750 And certainly, the the the NRA basic pistol 3357 01:59:09,750 --> 01:59:11,909 program, the live fire was trash. And it 3358 01:59:11,909 --> 01:59:13,430 wasn't didn't have anything to do with defensive 3359 01:59:13,430 --> 01:59:15,510 shooting, but the way the NRA set up 3360 01:59:15,510 --> 01:59:17,989 the lobbying back in the day, they became 3361 01:59:17,989 --> 01:59:20,390 the defacto instructor development course for the entire 3362 01:59:20,390 --> 01:59:20,890 country. 3363 01:59:21,244 --> 01:59:23,244 So we had an army of very, very, 3364 01:59:23,244 --> 01:59:26,204 very lowest common denominator instructors, which which I 3365 01:59:26,204 --> 01:59:28,685 would celebrate politically because it made it easy 3366 01:59:28,685 --> 01:59:30,364 for people to become instructors and easy for 3367 01:59:30,364 --> 01:59:31,185 people to become, 3368 01:59:32,125 --> 01:59:34,545 you know, allowed to carry guns for defense. 3369 01:59:34,845 --> 01:59:36,064 But it really did 3370 01:59:36,739 --> 01:59:38,260 set us off on a on a weird 3371 01:59:38,260 --> 01:59:40,739 tangent of get the piece of paper and 3372 01:59:40,739 --> 01:59:43,079 and check a box instructor certification. 3373 01:59:43,380 --> 01:59:45,960 Yeah. My experience in the NRA instructor course 3374 01:59:46,020 --> 01:59:48,260 teaching was reading word for word out of 3375 01:59:48,260 --> 01:59:50,039 the binder in front of the class. 3376 01:59:50,364 --> 01:59:51,104 Yeah. Exactly. 3377 01:59:52,204 --> 01:59:53,885 And I think part of the learning how 3378 01:59:53,885 --> 01:59:55,405 to become an instructor is, like, you have 3379 01:59:55,405 --> 01:59:56,465 to understand the material, 3380 01:59:57,005 --> 01:59:58,284 as well as you can for as far 3381 01:59:58,284 --> 01:59:59,484 as you are in the journey, but you 3382 01:59:59,484 --> 02:00:01,965 have to understand students too. And you don't 3383 02:00:02,659 --> 02:00:04,340 there's no way to learn that except to 3384 02:00:04,340 --> 02:00:06,659 be in front of or or even just 3385 02:00:06,659 --> 02:00:08,680 watching students as somebody else teaches 3386 02:00:09,140 --> 02:00:11,800 and see you start to see, you know, 3387 02:00:11,859 --> 02:00:14,579 patterns of behavior that repeat across different types 3388 02:00:14,579 --> 02:00:17,320 of students and learn how to spot them, 3389 02:00:17,625 --> 02:00:19,944 respond to them, teach around them, all of 3390 02:00:19,944 --> 02:00:20,604 that stuff. 3391 02:00:21,304 --> 02:00:22,125 Right. Yeah. 3392 02:00:22,505 --> 02:00:23,404 A 100%. 3393 02:00:24,264 --> 02:00:26,284 Oh, sun has set. Well, 3394 02:00:27,304 --> 02:00:29,545 you look better in the, sunset than you 3395 02:00:29,545 --> 02:00:30,045 do. 3396 02:00:32,170 --> 02:00:34,010 Alright. I'm gonna cut you guys loose. I 3397 02:00:34,010 --> 02:00:35,289 appreciate you letting me jump in on the 3398 02:00:35,289 --> 02:00:35,789 conversation. 3399 02:00:36,409 --> 02:00:38,090 Appreciate you guys spreading the word and doing 3400 02:00:38,090 --> 02:00:39,949 the good work in Colorado as always. 3401 02:00:41,050 --> 02:00:42,489 Always have a good rep. Have a have 3402 02:00:42,489 --> 02:00:44,170 a good rest of the show. We see 3403 02:00:44,170 --> 02:00:44,595 you. 3404 02:00:48,114 --> 02:00:49,574 Wow. Man, we got 3405 02:00:50,275 --> 02:00:52,354 we got we got the Rob Pincus on 3406 02:00:52,354 --> 02:00:53,015 our podcast. 3407 02:00:53,315 --> 02:00:54,295 The Rob Pincus. 3408 02:00:55,555 --> 02:00:56,454 I think that 3409 02:00:58,329 --> 02:00:59,390 that the nuance 3410 02:00:59,930 --> 02:01:02,250 anytime you're interacting with Rob, you're you're gonna 3411 02:01:02,250 --> 02:01:03,390 hear a lot of nuance. 3412 02:01:04,570 --> 02:01:07,130 And I think that people really fear that 3413 02:01:07,130 --> 02:01:08,570 nuance. I think it's part of the reason 3414 02:01:08,570 --> 02:01:10,090 why we go back to the four rules 3415 02:01:10,090 --> 02:01:11,770 all the time is because, like, nobody wants 3416 02:01:11,770 --> 02:01:12,270 to 3417 02:01:12,664 --> 02:01:15,645 take the time to understand, explain, or live 3418 02:01:15,784 --> 02:01:18,125 in a in a nuanced place. 3419 02:01:19,625 --> 02:01:20,125 But 3420 02:01:20,744 --> 02:01:22,024 I think with the way that we teach 3421 02:01:22,024 --> 02:01:23,244 the IDS class, 3422 02:01:24,664 --> 02:01:27,305 is is like you you slide people into 3423 02:01:27,305 --> 02:01:27,965 the nuance. 3424 02:01:28,430 --> 02:01:29,949 You know, we don't need to cover every 3425 02:01:29,949 --> 02:01:32,750 single Nuance topic right away. I'm going to 3426 02:01:32,750 --> 02:01:34,829 introduce some Nuance to you, and then we're 3427 02:01:34,829 --> 02:01:37,170 gonna build on that throughout the class. 3428 02:01:38,430 --> 02:01:38,930 Yeah. 3429 02:01:40,685 --> 02:01:42,604 And and I think that's that's a a 3430 02:01:42,604 --> 02:01:44,284 big issue. Right? We we see this with 3431 02:01:44,284 --> 02:01:46,925 with humans who who ask us the when 3432 02:01:46,925 --> 02:01:49,404 could I shoot the bad guy. Mhmm. I 3433 02:01:49,404 --> 02:01:51,484 don't know. Like and that's that's the nuance. 3434 02:01:51,484 --> 02:01:53,244 People just wanna be told what to do. 3435 02:01:53,244 --> 02:01:53,744 Instructors 3436 02:01:54,220 --> 02:01:56,619 that, unfortunately, we we have that come out 3437 02:01:56,619 --> 02:01:57,439 of the NRA, 3438 02:01:58,220 --> 02:01:59,359 and, dare I say, 3439 02:01:59,659 --> 02:02:01,119 a portion of the USCCA 3440 02:02:01,739 --> 02:02:02,239 nowadays 3441 02:02:03,420 --> 02:02:03,920 is, 3442 02:02:05,020 --> 02:02:06,780 are those instructors? Just tell me what to 3443 02:02:06,780 --> 02:02:08,814 say. Mhmm. Like, once you tell me what 3444 02:02:08,814 --> 02:02:11,215 to say, then, I don't it's it's not 3445 02:02:11,215 --> 02:02:12,895 as scary because now you've told me what 3446 02:02:12,895 --> 02:02:13,474 to say. 3447 02:02:13,774 --> 02:02:16,414 We we I know one lady here in 3448 02:02:16,414 --> 02:02:18,414 the state of Colorado. She's not a nice 3449 02:02:18,414 --> 02:02:19,229 lady, but, 3450 02:02:20,109 --> 02:02:22,770 she cannot do a class without her PowerPoint 3451 02:02:22,909 --> 02:02:25,470 presentation. Cannot do it. Cannot do it. I 3452 02:02:25,470 --> 02:02:28,130 I I we did a seminar together, and 3453 02:02:28,909 --> 02:02:30,930 she fucking lost it. 3454 02:02:32,175 --> 02:02:33,935 The students didn't get to see that, but 3455 02:02:33,935 --> 02:02:35,695 she fucking lost it. I was like, no. 3456 02:02:35,695 --> 02:02:37,074 We just won't use the PowerPoint. 3457 02:02:37,454 --> 02:02:38,975 She's like, no. But I need my PowerPoint. 3458 02:02:38,975 --> 02:02:41,055 Like, how else would I know what to 3459 02:02:41,055 --> 02:02:43,854 teach? Yeah. And, unfortunately, she mentioned this in 3460 02:02:43,854 --> 02:02:45,055 the class. She's like, I don't have my 3461 02:02:45,055 --> 02:02:46,994 PowerPoint, so I don't I don't know. 3462 02:02:47,670 --> 02:02:49,989 Like, that's I think that's an issue is 3463 02:02:49,989 --> 02:02:52,090 when people don't want to discuss the Nuance, 3464 02:02:52,630 --> 02:02:54,010 when people don't want 3465 02:02:54,390 --> 02:02:55,050 to to 3466 02:02:56,070 --> 02:02:57,530 because now that's a reflection 3467 02:02:58,070 --> 02:03:00,630 of your understanding of the information, which is 3468 02:03:00,710 --> 02:03:03,264 might be zero. Mhmm. It might be this 3469 02:03:03,264 --> 02:03:05,425 idea of, like, I don't know shit. And 3470 02:03:05,425 --> 02:03:07,104 when you get into the nuance, I can't 3471 02:03:07,104 --> 02:03:08,965 discuss it because I don't know shit. 3472 02:03:09,585 --> 02:03:11,744 But it's it's important to understand the nuance. 3473 02:03:11,744 --> 02:03:12,965 It's important to understand 3474 02:03:13,824 --> 02:03:15,899 why we say the four rules suck, 3475 02:03:16,460 --> 02:03:18,380 and then we get we get to explain 3476 02:03:18,380 --> 02:03:20,380 why they suck. We we we can have 3477 02:03:20,380 --> 02:03:22,399 a chat with John about why, 3478 02:03:23,420 --> 02:03:25,279 it's important for us to poke the bear. 3479 02:03:26,539 --> 02:03:28,800 We we have to have that nuanced conversation. 3480 02:03:29,355 --> 02:03:29,855 Yeah. 3481 02:03:30,395 --> 02:03:33,114 Yeah. The arms men says, I gotta say 3482 02:03:33,114 --> 02:03:35,355 excellent chat. Very informative, valid points. I come 3483 02:03:35,355 --> 02:03:37,375 across way too many so called instructors, 3484 02:03:37,835 --> 02:03:40,074 in my opinion, do not qualify for the 3485 02:03:40,074 --> 02:03:40,574 title. 3486 02:03:42,229 --> 02:03:44,090 I I get the sentiment definitely. 3487 02:03:46,390 --> 02:03:48,250 That's that's tricky because 3488 02:03:48,949 --> 02:03:50,869 there is this element of, like, what are 3489 02:03:50,869 --> 02:03:51,609 you teaching 3490 02:03:53,510 --> 02:03:54,969 and what are you not teaching? 3491 02:03:55,595 --> 02:03:56,414 You know? Like, 3492 02:03:56,795 --> 02:03:58,574 I I I call myself an instructor, 3493 02:03:58,954 --> 02:04:00,895 and if somebody came to me and said, 3494 02:04:01,515 --> 02:04:03,675 hey. You're a firearms instructor. Can can we 3495 02:04:03,675 --> 02:04:04,414 do some 3496 02:04:04,795 --> 02:04:07,215 long range instruction? The answer is 3497 02:04:08,235 --> 02:04:10,095 no. No. No. 3498 02:04:10,699 --> 02:04:12,939 I'm not qualified to do that. Yeah. I'm 3499 02:04:12,939 --> 02:04:14,619 not qual I mean, I could teach you 3500 02:04:14,619 --> 02:04:16,060 a a couple of things, but I'd probably 3501 02:04:16,060 --> 02:04:16,880 make you worse. 3502 02:04:20,619 --> 02:04:22,479 And, and, you know, 3503 02:04:23,485 --> 02:04:25,565 there's there's a lot of different things that 3504 02:04:25,565 --> 02:04:28,145 you could explore and teach around firearms. 3505 02:04:28,765 --> 02:04:31,085 And so if somebody comes to me and 3506 02:04:31,085 --> 02:04:33,005 says, oh, you're an instructor. Can you teach 3507 02:04:33,005 --> 02:04:34,765 me this? Most of the things that they're 3508 02:04:34,765 --> 02:04:36,284 gonna ask me to do are probably gonna 3509 02:04:36,284 --> 02:04:38,945 say no. Yeah. I'm not that instructor, 3510 02:04:39,619 --> 02:04:41,699 and somebody else can do that better for 3511 02:04:41,699 --> 02:04:43,779 you than I can. So, there is a 3512 02:04:43,779 --> 02:04:44,840 guy that I I 3513 02:04:45,219 --> 02:04:47,079 I see him at least once a year 3514 02:04:47,219 --> 02:04:48,439 because he we 3515 02:04:48,979 --> 02:04:51,239 end up at the same event every year, 3516 02:04:51,699 --> 02:04:53,300 and the guy is like a master level 3517 02:04:53,300 --> 02:04:54,119 trap shooter. 3518 02:04:54,765 --> 02:04:56,604 And I've got nothing to say to that 3519 02:04:56,604 --> 02:04:57,104 guy 3520 02:04:57,885 --> 02:04:59,885 when it comes to to trap shooting. Yeah. 3521 02:04:59,885 --> 02:05:01,965 You know? Like, I I'm consider me a 3522 02:05:01,965 --> 02:05:04,145 kindergartner here. Like, I know it's a shotgun, 3523 02:05:04,444 --> 02:05:06,524 and I know what we're shooting, and that's 3524 02:05:06,524 --> 02:05:08,304 all I really know. You know? 3525 02:05:09,119 --> 02:05:11,359 And on the flip side, he doesn't come 3526 02:05:11,359 --> 02:05:13,600 over to the range to the pistol range 3527 02:05:13,600 --> 02:05:16,079 to try to teach, you know, pistol handling. 3528 02:05:16,079 --> 02:05:17,219 He wants to learn 3529 02:05:17,679 --> 02:05:18,420 for himself 3530 02:05:18,880 --> 02:05:20,880 knowing that he know he's been doing shotgun 3531 02:05:20,880 --> 02:05:22,739 training for forty years. 3532 02:05:23,095 --> 02:05:24,454 He doesn't come over to the pistol range 3533 02:05:24,454 --> 02:05:26,155 and be like, alright, guys. I'm an instructor. 3534 02:05:26,215 --> 02:05:27,994 It's like he doesn't say any of that. 3535 02:05:28,295 --> 02:05:29,435 So Yeah. 3536 02:05:30,694 --> 02:05:32,935 Well, I I I think I think we're 3537 02:05:32,935 --> 02:05:34,494 maxed out for today. Like, how long Yeah. 3538 02:05:34,494 --> 02:05:35,515 I mean, we covered 3539 02:05:35,850 --> 02:05:36,590 a lot. 3540 02:05:37,529 --> 02:05:39,210 Quite a bit. Even though they're not on 3541 02:05:39,210 --> 02:05:41,130 anymore, I'd I'd definitely wanna say another thanks 3542 02:05:41,130 --> 02:05:43,310 to to John and and Rob for participating 3543 02:05:43,529 --> 02:05:44,510 and to everybody 3544 02:05:44,810 --> 02:05:47,630 who participated in the chat. I think the 3545 02:05:48,105 --> 02:05:50,824 content of this, podcast gets a lot better 3546 02:05:50,824 --> 02:05:53,164 when people participate in the chat 3547 02:05:53,465 --> 02:05:55,545 even if it's, like, you're not sure if 3548 02:05:55,545 --> 02:05:56,744 you're gonna say the right thing. That's 3549 02:05:57,465 --> 02:05:59,545 you know, I'm if if we challenge something 3550 02:05:59,545 --> 02:06:01,625 you say, it's not about you at all. 3551 02:06:01,625 --> 02:06:03,100 It's just, you know, we're trying to put 3552 02:06:03,100 --> 02:06:05,360 the best information out, and we're gonna use 3553 02:06:05,739 --> 02:06:07,739 anything that comes our way to explore that 3554 02:06:07,739 --> 02:06:08,539 stuff. So 3555 02:06:09,260 --> 02:06:09,820 Yeah. Yeah. 3556 02:06:10,780 --> 02:06:13,920 Appreciate that stuff. Remember, gfenational.com. 3557 02:06:14,380 --> 02:06:16,300 We we we have a lot of stuff 3558 02:06:16,300 --> 02:06:17,895 for Colorado there, but, 3559 02:06:18,534 --> 02:06:21,015 we now have Nevada up there, and we're 3560 02:06:21,015 --> 02:06:23,015 slowly working to to get as many states 3561 02:06:23,015 --> 02:06:23,675 as possible. 3562 02:06:24,295 --> 02:06:25,994 What what we're doing is 3563 02:06:26,375 --> 02:06:28,854 trying to add instructors that have gone through 3564 02:06:28,854 --> 02:06:30,074 the IDS course. 3565 02:06:30,550 --> 02:06:32,649 And if that instructor is doing 3566 02:06:32,949 --> 02:06:34,630 a lot of classes so far, I'm I'm 3567 02:06:34,630 --> 02:06:36,810 kinda struggling keeping up with that stuff. 3568 02:06:37,189 --> 02:06:39,530 The next one is probably gonna be California 3569 02:06:39,750 --> 02:06:40,250 with, 3570 02:06:41,110 --> 02:06:41,610 Desargo. 3571 02:06:42,310 --> 02:06:44,324 So we're we're trying to add these states. 3572 02:06:44,565 --> 02:06:46,965 The the my biggest struggle is as I 3573 02:06:46,965 --> 02:06:48,805 add these states, I also want to add 3574 02:06:48,805 --> 02:06:49,545 their laws, 3575 02:06:50,485 --> 02:06:53,704 and I wanna become familiar. So going to, 3576 02:06:55,125 --> 02:06:56,805 if you just go to our website, again, 3577 02:06:56,805 --> 02:06:58,085 gfenational.com, 3578 02:06:58,085 --> 02:06:59,604 just so you guys kinda know a little 3579 02:06:59,604 --> 02:07:01,830 bit about what the fuck we're doing and 3580 02:07:01,830 --> 02:07:04,280 and what to to look for as as 3581 02:07:04,280 --> 02:07:06,729 we move forward and and why it takes 3582 02:07:06,729 --> 02:07:09,179 some time for for us to do all 3583 02:07:09,179 --> 02:07:11,628 of this stuff. It's not it's not super 3584 02:07:11,628 --> 02:07:14,385 easy to do. I'm gonna pull it up 3585 02:07:14,465 --> 02:07:16,625 just so you guys watching, though. Those of 3586 02:07:16,625 --> 02:07:18,385 you guys that are watching kind of understand. 3587 02:07:18,385 --> 02:07:19,444 So I have Nevada. 3588 02:07:20,304 --> 02:07:21,284 And in Nevada, 3589 02:07:22,224 --> 02:07:24,864 I've got poor people Internet right now, apparently. 3590 02:07:24,864 --> 02:07:26,804 So it it's taking a while to load. 3591 02:07:27,579 --> 02:07:29,439 So now I have all of the laws 3592 02:07:29,739 --> 02:07:32,140 for for Nevada. And so reading up on 3593 02:07:32,140 --> 02:07:33,119 them and then, 3594 02:07:33,579 --> 02:07:35,659 copying and pasting it, it's pretty tough in 3595 02:07:35,659 --> 02:07:37,579 getting the correct one and then getting all 3596 02:07:37,579 --> 02:07:40,395 of them and organizing them and and all 3597 02:07:40,395 --> 02:07:42,795 that stuff, it it it gets complicated. So 3598 02:07:42,795 --> 02:07:44,875 I'm I'm doing this for all all 50 3599 02:07:44,875 --> 02:07:45,694 states eventually. 3600 02:07:46,715 --> 02:07:47,694 So, eventually, 3601 02:07:48,715 --> 02:07:50,654 Gunsboro National is gonna have 3602 02:07:51,354 --> 02:07:53,034 all of the states up there, but I 3603 02:07:53,034 --> 02:07:54,494 wanna start off by 3604 02:07:56,609 --> 02:07:57,109 doing, 3605 02:07:57,569 --> 02:08:00,449 the states that that we have instructors that 3606 02:08:00,449 --> 02:08:02,949 are consistently doing classes. We we have instructors 3607 02:08:03,010 --> 02:08:04,609 in states that'll do one or two in 3608 02:08:04,609 --> 02:08:06,689 their home state, but then they travel a 3609 02:08:06,689 --> 02:08:08,710 lot. So it's not like it's not consistent. 3610 02:08:08,770 --> 02:08:10,069 So but we do have 3611 02:08:11,295 --> 02:08:14,095 permit classes for for Nevada. We have defensive 3612 02:08:14,095 --> 02:08:15,074 shooting for Nevada. 3613 02:08:16,015 --> 02:08:17,614 So there's there's quite a bit there for 3614 02:08:17,614 --> 02:08:19,235 for Nevada right right now. 3615 02:08:19,854 --> 02:08:21,454 So check that shit out. That's what we're 3616 02:08:21,454 --> 02:08:23,375 working on. Hopefully, we'll have a state. So 3617 02:08:23,375 --> 02:08:25,055 if you wanna become an instructor in in 3618 02:08:25,055 --> 02:08:25,715 your state, 3619 02:08:26,710 --> 02:08:28,649 we have instructor development courses. 3620 02:08:29,029 --> 02:08:30,810 We're working on one in, 3621 02:08:31,670 --> 02:08:33,510 late September, I think, is what we're talking 3622 02:08:33,510 --> 02:08:35,349 about right now. So we'll see. I I 3623 02:08:35,349 --> 02:08:37,109 need to text Pincus and and see what 3624 02:08:37,109 --> 02:08:38,869 what day we're gonna do it. So at 3625 02:08:38,869 --> 02:08:40,550 any rate, that that's what we've got going 3626 02:08:40,550 --> 02:08:41,210 on for, 3627 02:08:41,824 --> 02:08:45,604 GFE National. We've got competitions coming up. Competitions 3628 02:08:46,064 --> 02:08:48,305 Got one on Saturday. Got one on Saturday, 3629 02:08:48,305 --> 02:08:50,064 and then we we've got one in in 3630 02:08:50,064 --> 02:08:51,905 August. Every month, we're gonna do at least 3631 02:08:51,905 --> 02:08:52,405 once, 3632 02:08:53,265 --> 02:08:54,405 do it once. And, 3633 02:08:54,945 --> 02:08:57,380 but, yeah, that's what we've got coming up. 3634 02:08:57,520 --> 02:08:58,020 Cool. 3635 02:08:58,800 --> 02:09:01,280 Well, thanks again for everybody participating, and, 3636 02:09:02,640 --> 02:09:04,640 yeah. Yeah. Have a good time. I appreciate 3637 02:09:04,640 --> 02:09:06,880 you guys. Have a good one. Alright. Peace. 3638 02:09:06,880 --> 02:09:07,380 Peace.