[01:00:00:00 - 01:00:03:07] (Gentle Music) [01:00:06:12 - 01:00:21:01] Abbey Hi everybody, and welcome back to another episode of Travel for Curious Minds, brought to you by Jawsburn. I am really excited today to be here chatting with Ben Bosch, our joint CEO of Dirtor UK. Ben, it's lovely to have you on the podcast. [01:00:21:01 - 01:00:22:10] Ben Thanks for having me, Abby. [01:00:22:10 - 01:00:45:16] Abbey So you are a man who has traveled all over and had many different travel experiences. And I'm really excited to have this conversation with you to get to know you a little bit better and kind of know the leader behind these amazing travel brands that we have in the group, from villas to luxury holidays and us at a school to touring. So first of all, what made you get into travel? Where's your passion for travel come from? [01:00:45:16 - 01:00:57:02] Ben That's a really good question. I think it started very early on. Actually, probably during my studies, I started business administration in Switzerland and I got bored a bit. [01:00:58:10 - 01:01:02:17] Ben And then the business school had this wonderful opportunity to do so-called exchange semesters. [01:01:03:21 - 01:01:27:17] Ben I pretty quickly realized that you could do more than one. So I ended up doing three exchange semesters that brought me to Singapore, to Buenos Aires, and to Los Angeles. So I had the privilege to see a lot very early on in my life. And then I guess I never let go of the travel bug. Or the travel bug never let go of me better. [01:01:27:17 - 01:01:45:13] Abbey It captures you, doesn't it? And just never lets you go. And I think it's one of the most amazing things that you can catch is the bug for travel. So where are some of the places that you have visited, not when you first started traveling, but since then, where have you gone to the most? Where's your favorite place? [01:01:47:18 - 01:01:58:20] Ben Another difficult one. I had to choose one where I've been a lot and I didn't keep track of how many times. It's probably in the 30s or 40s would be India. [01:02:00:05 - 01:02:12:19] Ben And I just came back from my last trip early January before I started this role. So this is an entire subcontinent. It's very near and dear to me. A lot of great memories. [01:02:12:19 - 01:02:29:08] Abbey And what is it about India that you love so much? It's somewhere that has captured the hearts of a lot of us at Jules Verne. It's a destination that I've been to before. And I wasn't sure what to expect when I arrived and absolutely fell in love with the people and the place. But what has captured your heart the most about India? [01:02:31:03 - 01:02:44:13] Ben I think to start with the people, the hospitality is outstanding, just to pick a few of the heritage hotels, converted palaces with wonderful atmosphere, very welcoming stuff, [01:02:45:19 - 01:03:42:06] Ben but then also the big brands like Oberoi or Tatch, who are not just hospitality brands or hotels, but they're also big education hubs. And fun enough, one of the employees that works in the hotel where I usually stay in Dorking called the White Horse was trained at an Oberoi, which I just found out two weeks ago. So the world is indeed small. The Indian hospitality has a wide reach. Then I love to see how the place evolves. It's steeped in history. I think has more than 40 UNESCO World Heritage sites, but at the same time, it's a rapidly evolving country with airlines, some of the most fast-growing airlines in the world, like Indigo, that is massively improving connectivity, domestically, internationally. [01:03:43:11 - 01:03:48:07] Ben The train network is getting better and better with faster high-speed trains. [01:03:49:11 - 01:04:50:15] Ben I took a car trip from Delhi to Jaipur, which I think 10 or 15 years ago, when I was first in India, took probably six plus hours. Now with a better highway, it takes three. So it's rapidly evolving, and there's always a lot to discover. There's quite a few things that surprised me, but I think the number one thing is that, given the fact that this is such a highly populated, and in many cases densely populated countries, you would expect much more nervousness or anxiety. And somehow you see a lot of very relaxed people that are almost stoically going about their day-to-day life. And that's something I deeply admire. And I guess somewhat related to that is that I feel that everybody lives in the moment and doesn't think too far into the future. [01:04:52:01 - 01:05:06:23] Ben And I guess with all the books about mindfulness that we're now reading, some of them are behind me in my bookshelf. It's something that we aspire as well, for instance, in Europe. And I think that's something to learn. [01:05:08:00 - 01:05:11:18] Ben Last but not least, I still feel that it's a bit of a hidden treasure [01:05:13:00 - 01:05:47:00] Ben compared to other countries which are better known. And that's maybe because the government is not promoting it enough. I mean, you can always do more, but maybe also because it's promoted as one country and it's so much more. It's probably 20 countries in Rome, not just by size, but also by diversity from the backwaters in Kerala to the Himalayas. So I still can say that I have been 30 or 40 times to India, but I haven't seen it yet. [01:05:47:00 - 01:06:07:05] Abbey There's lots of different ways to travel in India as well. So do you have sort of a preference on how you like to enjoy seeing the destination? Do you think being in the backwaters of Kerala on a houseboat or in a train going from Delhi to Agra, hiking, what's your sort of ultimate Indian exploring trip? [01:06:07:05 - 01:06:21:00] Ben It's one of the most underrated aspects of India is the safaris. There's a well protected population, for instance, for tigers, I think one of the largest in the world. [01:06:22:10 - 01:06:42:07] Ben Sitting on a safari jeep and having that total focus on seeing one or more tigers is simply an amazing experience. Being in the wild and expecting the unexpected, you could say the same about leopards or lions, which I haven't seen, I haven't seen yet, I haven't tried. [01:06:43:11 - 01:06:50:02] Ben So that's probably my preferred mode of transport whenever the time allows. [01:06:50:02 - 01:06:58:18] Abbey Really getting close to nature and seeing things as wild as you possibly can in this day and age, I think is something really special, isn't it? [01:06:58:18 - 01:06:59:16] Ben Absolutely. [01:07:01:00 - 01:07:21:13] Abbey And then let's talk about food. Everybody loves food, everybody loves different flavours and India is one of those destinations, I think, where it just has the best mix of everything. You go to the north, there's a different taste, there's a different taste in the south. Do you have like a go-to restaurant or a go-to part of India where you think the food there is something that really like warms my soul? [01:07:22:18 - 01:07:31:07] Ben I don't think so because the diversity is so high and I still haven't seen it all. So I just appreciate exploring it. [01:07:32:13 - 01:07:55:19] Ben And sometimes I'm really adventurous and go to street markets and try and find a pickle that I've never seen pickled vegetable or so that I've never seen before. Probably if I had to pick a bonnet, it's then the home cooked dishes that I can enjoy with my good friends in India simply because, [01:07:57:00 - 01:08:21:12] Ben and I think that's what I appreciate about the Indian Kitchen is always a social affair. You have a lot of shared platters. So it's always a shared affair, which we may not have that often in Europe where each and everyone has their plate. And that's something I enjoy, just to sit together and enjoy each other's company and a good conversation alongside with great food. [01:08:22:15 - 01:09:04:18] Abbey I think the heart of a community is the kitchen, isn't it? The heart of a family and a friendship all sitting around a table, sharing those experiences while over amazing food is incredible. I think the best bit of advice I was given when I went to India, because I think I had the preconception in my mind. I think the best bit of advice I was given was eat like a local where the locals eat. Because if you're eating in chain restaurants or big hotels, you're not really getting the flavor of the destination. There's a place for those amazing restaurants, but actually, like you said, eating with the local family, eating in a local restaurant, everybody's so friendly. You will make friends along the way. And yeah, I used to sit back and let the guide pick my dinners for me. And I think it's probably one of the best meals I've had in my whole history of travel. [01:09:04:18 - 01:09:05:16] Ben Fantastic. [01:09:05:16 - 01:09:19:18] Abbey So outside of maybe the main tourist areas, you've got that golden triangle, you go up to the hill stations, things like that. Where would you say is a must place to visit in India outside of seeing things like the Taj and the golden palaces? [01:09:22:19 - 01:09:29:13] Ben It was probably one of my very early trips was in the south of India [01:09:31:06 - 01:10:00:14] Ben when I went to a place called Kanyakumari. I hope I pronounced that right, which is the southern tip of India where the oceans meet. These places are often difficult to access in India as possible. And it's a very spiritual place. And it's almost contagious just to be there and enjoy the moment with hundreds of other people that are there at the same time. That's a beautiful memory. [01:10:02:02 - 01:10:10:07] Ben Another one would be one of the beautiful Ayurvedic retreats one I enjoyed in Gokarna, south of Goa, [01:10:11:17 - 01:10:22:00] Ben where you spend a week really focusing on your body and your mind and your eat healthy. And I still remember that I slept, probably slept as well as never before, [01:10:23:00 - 01:10:34:12] Ben only then to be thrown back into my day-to-day life and realizing how good that week was. But that I can only realize that in that confined space. [01:10:36:08 - 01:10:58:19] Ben And probably last but not least, one of the recent trips was in more in central India, close to Kachurau with its beautiful temples in a converted, I think it was a hunting lodge from one of the royal families, [01:10:59:21 - 01:11:08:00] Ben which is just this old palace converting into a beautiful hotel. That was an amazing experience now in January. [01:11:09:12 - 01:11:28:05] Abbey There is so much to experience in India, isn't there? Do you have something that you try and do on every trip, whether it's in India or another destination, is there something that when you are away, whether it be business or family travel, do you sit there and think that's what a holiday is about, whether it be walking or going to local restaurants, what makes a good holiday for you? [01:11:30:05 - 01:11:52:00] Ben Walking, I think, is a good hint because it always gives you an opportunity to interact and to be in touch with the locals. And I think that that's always at the core or that's something I'm looking for in a holiday experience to really feel how the locals live, [01:11:53:02 - 01:12:02:00] Ben what they think about. I remember a trip I did in Cuba all by myself where I was just sitting on a city square. [01:12:03:12 - 01:13:56:19] Ben And of course, not just discover myself, but equally in a place like Cuba, I let the locals discover where I am come from. And they were incredibly curious to learn about Switzerland, about my life. So it's also a give and take, which I think is very fulfilling. And probably somewhat connected to that is local businesses, whether it's a store for fabrics or lately I was in a fragrance, almost like a lab, but it's a fragrance store that mixes a fragrance in a tailor-made fashion where you could just go in and say, "Well, I'm thinking about this and this and that." Or actually I had a fragrance that is not produced anymore. And I just told the fragrance master there how the fragrance is called. And then he looked up the ingredients and concocted that fragrance. So I came back with a fragrance that I haven't used for 10, 15 years simply because it's not produced yet. And that reminds me also how businesses used to be much more specialized nowadays. We often order online or we go to a supermarket that gives you everything at once or a shopping mall and in a place like India, but also in other emerging markets, it's still very much specialized. My favorite bookstore, for instance, is a small bookstore in Delhi where what you would call a recommender engine on Amazon or so is a person. And you go in and you put a book on the desk and then he would say, "Well, how about this? How about that? I think you would like this. I think you'd like that." And that's just a lot of fun to explore. [01:13:57:22 - 01:14:36:17] Abbey I think you've touched on a really lovely moment there where it's the human connection, isn't it? Whether it, like you said, it's buying a book, a fragrance, meeting someone in a restaurant, talking to somebody when you're walking around a city. It's that human connection that can really elevate a travel experience. And I think that's one of the things that's amazing about group travel is you're traveling with other people, like-minded individuals, seeing sites and visiting places for the first time. Talking about first-time visitors, if you were gonna go to India, would you say there's one particular thing that you must see on a first-time visit? Or would you say, just go there with an open mind and pick on the map where you wanna go because everything will be amazing? [01:14:37:19 - 01:14:45:12] Ben There's obviously a sort of an expected answer, right? That you should go to Agra and see Taj Mahal. [01:14:46:21 - 01:14:54:08] Ben And I can confirm that, right? It's a truly magical place and no photography [01:14:55:12 - 01:15:08:03] Ben does justice to the sensation that you feel when you see this perfectly symmetrical building and learn about the story and the history of its inception or construction. That's truly beautiful. [01:15:09:05 - 01:15:20:14] Ben Again, what I would recommend is to go maybe to a smaller city, maybe in Rajasthan, to an Udaipur or Jodhpur, [01:15:22:02 - 01:15:28:12] Ben where you tend to have more contact with locals and get to enjoy that interaction. [01:15:28:12 - 01:16:00:22] Abbey And then all of your travels, your many destinations that you've been, has there, and this does happen, but has there been a time where something's gone wrong and actually it's become a really memorable trip, maybe not for the right reasons, but sometimes things just do go a little bit wrong and it makes a really good trip. On a previous episode, we spoke to our managing director who had something go wrong on one of her trips. And actually she's made friends for life from that shared experience of all just sitting in a cafe laughing because the bus broke down. Have you got those stories where things have just not quite gone right? [01:16:00:22 - 01:16:22:17] Ben There's a beautiful saying, I think it's from Kevin Kelly, that I think somewhat says, travel and something surprising equals an adventure. So I think you could almost say that it's sometimes beautiful that you have those unexpected moments because it will turn into an adventure. [01:16:24:01 - 01:16:33:12] Ben Where this was almost by design was a motorcycle trip I did in Morocco in October 24 [01:16:34:17 - 01:17:03:05] Ben with a dear friend of mine where we had so-called monkey bikes. These are very small, actually, I think bikes designed for kids. And this was an adventure operator that rented out those bikes and then gave us seven days to cover around about a thousand kilometers from the outskirts of the Sahara back to Marrakesh. And they gave us a crash course in mechanics because they told us, well, it's most likely that these motorcycles will break down at some point. [01:17:04:10 - 01:17:11:12] Ben And of course, we believe that our motorcycle would never break down, right? And of course it did. [01:17:12:13 - 01:17:30:10] Ben And one defect was so severe that we not just had to find a local mechanic, but he was actually almost dismantling the whole motorcycle. So instead of ending up in the next city where we were planning to, or which we were planning to reach, [01:17:31:17 - 01:17:47:08] Ben we ended up spending four or five hours in a city and were waiting for that mechanic to be done with his task. And that allows us to explore the surroundings and chat with locals. [01:17:48:09 - 01:18:03:07] Ben And it also forced us then to take a different tour back to, or itinerary back to Marrakesh where we encountered a beautiful organic farm up in the mountains. And all of this would never have happened had we not had that defect. [01:18:04:23 - 01:18:36:05] Abbey I think you sound like a true adventurer and explorer. Everything you do has this sense of pioneering travel behind it, whether it's just a trip to Morocco, but you're gonna take these bikes and go off, or you're in India and you're taking road trips. It sounds like everything you do has a sense of adventure to it, which is amazing and inspiring. So my last question to you has to be, where is next? What's next on the bucket list? Is there a destination that you haven't managed to quite reach yet or an experience that you haven't had? [01:18:37:18 - 01:18:40:16] Ben Oh, there's so many. And now of course, [01:18:42:13 - 01:18:53:15] Ben I get very, very amazing proposals from all our amazing brands in the portfolio. [01:18:55:04 - 01:19:03:20] Ben I can think of a walking trip, for instance, with in-travel, maybe a tour with, maybe a tour with Schubert. [01:19:05:16 - 01:19:14:12] Ben I think there's a charity run coming up on, I think it Corfu or another quick island with CV, [01:19:15:15 - 01:19:27:05] Ben CV Villas. So probably I'm tempted to say that I will just go with the flow and see whatever fits my schedule, but it has to be something I do [01:19:28:07 - 01:19:39:18] Ben with one of our amazing brands, or hopefully more than one, maybe even be, and that's probably going to materialize the skiing trip with Inghams at the end of the season to the French Alps. [01:19:39:18 - 01:20:16:15] Abbey I think you have possibly the best job. I think we all have our jobs in travel, but I think you possibly have the best job that you are jointly in charge of these incredible and amazing businesses that have these wonderful experiences for their customers, but we're lucky enough within the group that we get to share those travel experiences with each other. So I think wherever you end up, whether it be Corfu, somewhere with us at Jules Verne, maybe Uzbekistan, you never know, skiing with the family, I think you'll have an incredible time because you know that when booking with one of these operators and traveling with one of those operators, you are in completely safe hands. [01:20:16:15 - 01:20:47:13] Ben I'm very happy with where I work and most importantly also with whom I work, that's you and all the colleagues next to you who are so passionate about creating those experiences, not for me, but for all our customers. And just this morning, we looked at Net Promoter scores that show how happy our customers are. And in case of one brand, somebody said, [01:20:48:14 - 01:20:58:14] Ben "We can't even improve the score anymore. It's very hard because it's so high." And I guess that's a statement I would like to hear [01:20:59:22 - 01:21:01:02] Ben as often as possible. [01:21:01:02 - 01:21:13:12] Abbey That's a great place to be. Ben, thank you for our conversation today. It's been wonderful to get to know you and hear some of your stories. And I hope we get to have more of this conversation and again very soon, but for now, thank you so much. [01:21:13:12 - 01:21:15:18] Ben Thanks so much to you. Thanks, Abby.