[00:00:00:00 - 00:00:04:06] (Music) [00:00:07:03 - 00:00:45:10] Abbey Welcome to Travel for Curious Minds, brought to you by Jules Verne. I'm your host, Abby, and this is my first ever video podcast. I am delighted to be speaking to Mahal live from Cairo, talking about the wonders of Egypt. In our last episode, we heard from Debbie O'Neill, our Managing Director at Jules Verne, about how she's visited Egypt 12 times in total. In this episode, our local guide Mahal gives us her view on growing up in Egypt and how Egypt has changed today more than ever. Learn why she uses the word "history of mankind", "revolution", and how Egypt has changed so much in the last 20 to 30 years. Enjoy this episode. [00:00:45:10 - 00:00:47:16] (Music) [00:00:48:21 - 00:00:53:00] Abbey Thank you so much for joining me live from Cairo as well. This is really exciting. [00:00:53:00 - 00:00:58:06] Mahal Thank you for you giving me a chance. It's my first podcast. [00:00:58:06 - 00:01:06:22] Abbey Mahal, how did you first join us at Jules Verne? Can you give the listeners and the viewers a little bit of an idea of what you do for us at Jules Verne? [00:01:06:22 - 00:01:14:04] Mahal I met Mr. Tariq, who's actually the travel agent in 1988. [00:01:15:04 - 00:01:20:02] Mahal Then when Jules Verne started coming to Egypt, I was one of the first guides joining. [00:01:21:09 - 00:01:32:09] Mahal At the moment, I'm doing all types of programs that Jules Verne do, like Cairo or Luxor or even the long cruises from Cairo to Aswan, [00:01:33:10 - 00:02:09:06] Mahal and even Abu Simbel. So I cover all the programs that Jules Verne do in Egypt. I feel much pleasure working with the clients because most of the clients that visit us through Jules Verne, they're coming several times and they are checking what's new, especially the last year, actually, with opening the gym and doing the long cruise. I met a client who's coming with Jules Verne actually 16 times, another client that is using Jules Verne 12 times. [00:02:09:06 - 00:02:44:12] Abbey That's really important, I think, as well. It's the connection, isn't it, that you as a guide have with the clients and the clients have with each other. I think you're right. That's why so many people come back to many destinations. But Egypt is one that a lot of people return to, like you said, 10, 12 times. I think it's really interesting what you said about coming back to find something new because I think not necessarily, but people might think that, well, once you've seen Egypt, what is new? What is there to still see? So can you let us know, especially with the new Grand Egyptian Museum opening the gym, what is new in Egypt and what can people see? [00:02:45:13 - 00:02:48:16] Mahal Actually, what's happening in Egypt is, [00:02:49:21 - 00:02:55:02] Mahal I think, it's a revolution in tourism. If I tell you first about the pyramids, [00:02:57:21 - 00:03:28:18] Mahal I had clients with Jules Verne last week and they are repeaters as well. And they told me, because they changed actually the entrance of the pyramids, it's not anymore from the Mina House. It's from the desert side, not from the city side as it used to be. There is a great change happening now by the area of the pyramids using those electric buses. It's much more organized. There are lots of coffee shops, toilets, very clean toilets, not as it used to be. [00:03:29:20 - 00:03:44:15] Mahal So there is really a great revolution happening. Add to this the museum. To a civilization like Egypt, we needed that museum because we used to have a smaller museum, not air conditioned. [00:03:45:18 - 00:03:55:11] Mahal The storerooms were full of pieces, actually a third of what's already exhibited. So finally we have a museum with 100,000 artifacts. [00:03:56:15 - 00:04:17:19] Mahal Beside that Tutankhamen Collection, when they discovered that tomb, they discovered 5,350 pieces. But they didn't exhibit these pieces, they only exhibited around 1,500 pieces. For the first time it's 5,350 pieces exhibited at Tutankhamen. This is incredible. [00:04:18:20 - 00:04:22:04] Mahal We need four hours in the museum, [00:04:23:07 - 00:04:31:08] Mahal plus they opened this solar boat museum in the Grand Museum as well as a separate museum for it. [00:04:32:17 - 00:04:43:12] Mahal Usually our clients used to come and ask about the solar boats. For the first time we can let them also see the solar boat. So actually what's happening in Egypt, it's a revolution by all means. And I'm so proud. [00:04:44:12 - 00:04:54:15] Mahal And my clients, when they come to the tour, they tell me, "You should be proud." Because this is the greatest museum that we saw in our life. [00:04:56:10 - 00:05:01:21] Mahal The exhibition itself, the way they arranged the museum, the lighting, [00:05:03:05 - 00:05:09:08] Mahal the coffee shops and the restaurants they added. I'm so proud that Egypt finally had this museum. [00:05:10:10 - 00:05:41:00] Abbey And I think you should be proud. All of Egypt should be proud. It's an incredible museum and I think we urge anybody who hasn't been to go. One thing I'd like to get your opinion on, maybe, is Egypt is changing, Egypt is evolving. Cairo is quite a cosmopolitan city in some areas. But actually there's still a lot of history and a lot of tradition there. Do you think that, especially in Cairo, the balance is now perfect between the new and the old, you know, the modern and the history? [00:05:42:02 - 00:05:52:23] Mahal I will tell you something very strange about you, which I tell to my clients. You're not here to visit Egypt. You're here to visit the heritage of mankind. [00:05:54:02 - 00:06:03:00] Mahal It's all our ancestors. It's not only Egypt. It happened to be now it's called Egypt. But actually it is the heritage of all mankind. [00:06:04:00 - 00:06:16:04] Abbey I think that's a really beautiful and important message, Mahal. Can you sort of let us know what it's like when clients are coming to Egypt, seeing the history and the modern and that fusion together, especially in places like Cairo? [00:06:17:09 - 00:06:34:00] Mahal One of the main attractions in Egypt, especially Cairo, that you see the diverse every few minutes, like crossing the Nile, you see a view going to the pyramids, you see something else going to the market of Karal Khalili. There is another thing. [00:06:35:01 - 00:06:39:20] Mahal And then the slum areas and suddenly very luxury houses, [00:06:42:02 - 00:07:17:12] Mahal crowded streets and then highways and lots of highways around. So the contrast between the desert and the Nile, ancient Egypt, the pyramids, and then suddenly modern Egypt. So all those contrasts keeps the client opening their eyes to the maximum. So they don't really want to blink their eyes because they want to enjoy every little second of it. And that's what I feel. They are excited. They're happy. [00:07:18:21 - 00:07:21:16] Mahal And they want to come back. That's one of the best things. [00:07:21:16 - 00:07:38:05] Abbey So let's talk a little bit about you and what you do and how you became a guide. So what inspired you to share your knowledge of Egyptology and share your experience and essentially share your country and share your heart with our clients? [00:07:38:05 - 00:07:42:18] Mahal It's very difficult to join this section. [00:07:43:21 - 00:08:05:02] Mahal After getting high marks, they do an interview for you. And if you pass the interview, then you are accepted. This is actually a situation in Egypt. If you get high marks and you are in mathematics section, so your papers go to faculty of engineering. But it was a surprise for my mother because she expected me to be an architect or an engineer. [00:08:06:02 - 00:08:11:20] Mahal Egypt is just like all the families. They want their kids either to be doctors or engineers. [00:08:13:01 - 00:08:17:14] Mahal So my mother was a little bit shocked when I told her I'm not going to join. I mean, [00:08:18:16 - 00:08:22:12] Mahal I'm not going to be an electrician, [00:08:23:12 - 00:08:25:00] Mahal engineer, or electric engineer. [00:08:26:08 - 00:08:32:17] Mahal So I need to be something else. She said, what? And I told her, she said, what? [00:08:34:18 - 00:08:42:12] Mahal We didn't have anyone in the family doing this because my father was a professor in agriculture. [00:08:43:14 - 00:08:48:02] Mahal Sudo, my mother. So it was a big shock for them. [00:08:49:18 - 00:09:16:23] Mahal And when I joined it, every moment I was studying the history. Knowing my country more, I fell in love with Egypt. And this is what I tried to do for my children. I started studying this subject and I fell in love with it. And even when I was in trouble with my husband, I lectured all over the world. All over the world. I didn't stop speaking about Egypt. [00:09:18:22 - 00:09:26:09] Mahal And I was happy that in some countries that they were not interested in our history, [00:09:27:09 - 00:09:49:01] Mahal like the Gulf countries, but they started to fall in love. And I was one of the ones that brought the Gulf tourism to Egypt, to the sites, not only to the nightclubs because they like nightclubs more. And then it ended up that I shared in the Louvre Museum in Abu Dhabi as well, with Egyptian pieces, 40 pieces. [00:09:50:06 - 00:09:58:21] Mahal I did several programs in the television about Egypt there. So this is me and this is how I started. [00:10:00:11 - 00:10:17:11] Mahal And I'm so proud as well that my husband was the first one that got the first loan to start the museum because the project cost was $1 billion and Egypt at that time didn't have that money. [00:10:18:17 - 00:10:28:13] Mahal So my husband worked hard to get $350 million from Japan as a loan and that was the start. [00:10:29:17 - 00:10:35:05] Abbey That's incredible. So the gem opening is partly down to you, Mahal. [00:10:35:05 - 00:10:39:04] Mahal Not that much. It's just a little bit. [00:10:39:04 - 00:10:41:00] Abbey We have you to thank. [00:10:42:16 - 00:10:58:16] Abbey So in school in Egypt and the education system, what is taught about Egyptology? Is Egyptology at the forefront of the academic curriculum or is it something that is passed down from generations from stories to grandparents to aunties to uncles? [00:10:58:16 - 00:11:07:18] Mahal Part of the curriculum is the history of Egypt, but they study the history of Egypt in general. They study the whole history. [00:11:09:00 - 00:11:39:16] Mahal But I found by opening the Grand Museum and also doing those kinds of development that happened by the pyramids, it attracted the Egyptians themselves. And I'm so proud now, like nowadays, you will find every weekend there is a great crowd in Egypt, although the tickets are not cheap for the Egyptians and they are coming from the countryside. [00:11:41:14 - 00:11:54:08] Mahal But they are interested in Egyptology much more than 20 years ago. So it seems that not only the curriculum, I think the social media [00:11:56:14 - 00:12:02:05] Mahal is doing a great job concerning attracting the Egyptians to their history. [00:12:03:07 - 00:12:13:06] Mahal And they started now to feel the importance of knowing their history more than before, to be honest. [00:12:15:03 - 00:12:37:12] Abbey Mahal, you've recently come back from a Jules Verne trip, which was completely filled with female solo travellers. And I think it must have been amazing to share stories and speak to women who were travelling to Egypt for the first time, and some of them were repeat travellers. But what was so special about that trip with these strong, independent female travellers? [00:12:37:12 - 00:13:28:22] Mahal First of all, it was the first time for me to speak up with my life and what happened to me. And I was so proud of myself because I found other women, they were also so proud of themselves and what they were doing. Personally, it helped me to go one step up of not feeling lonely. There are other women around in the world that they are either divorced or travelling alone. First of all, let me tell you that travelling alone in Egypt is very safe. They do respect women's privacy, and it's very safe in general in Egypt to travel alone, to walk alone at night, to drive alone even late at night. [00:13:30:02 - 00:13:56:13] Mahal So travelling alone for a woman has no problems in Egypt. But let me tell you about the group. The group, it was a nice experience because they told me the background. So the first thing I said when I met them, I'm divorced and I'm proud. [00:13:57:16 - 00:14:16:05] Mahal And it's the first time I have ever said this. And the first day, it was great. But the second day after the tour, we decided to sit together and we shared our stories. And they said, "We are interested to know about your story." [00:14:17:08 - 00:14:45:00] Mahal So I told them about my story because Egypt always, people take the impression that women, they don't ask for divorce. And they told me, "We need to know what happened to you." Because it was unexpected after this long years of marriage. The impression that people take about my country that women, [00:14:46:06 - 00:14:53:15] Mahal they accept the man to have another relation or a second marriage. [00:14:55:09 - 00:14:58:15] Mahal And I think my husband also expected me to accept it. [00:15:00:14 - 00:15:10:01] Mahal But I didn't. When I knew that he was going up, he was going out with another woman, I said, "Okay, [00:15:11:04 - 00:15:13:18] Mahal let's sit and talk." [00:15:15:08 - 00:15:24:02] Mahal And I asked him for my divorce and he was not happy. And he said, "It's just a relation. [00:15:26:04 - 00:15:36:19] Mahal And it will, you know, our law or our religion allow us to have another wife. And I'm not married yet, but I'm thinking." [00:15:38:17 - 00:15:40:03] Mahal And so I said, "Okay, [00:15:41:18 - 00:16:23:11] Mahal law give you the permission and the religion give you the permission. But there is one point that you missed that I should accept or not. So I'm not accepting. And I need to have my divorce." And we agreed on divorce. And the only thing that broke my heart, which I shared with the group, that my son was the youngest son still living with us. Who was at that time 13, decided not to move with me because I live in an apartment and his father lived in a house with, you know, nice in a nice area with a pool and everything. [00:16:25:00 - 00:16:42:10] Mahal So it was a hard year at the beginning. But after that, I went back to work with full energy, because I thought that work is the best thing. [00:16:44:00 - 00:16:48:06] Mahal And I shared this with the group and they were asking lots of questions. [00:16:50:18 - 00:17:15:00] Mahal They couldn't believe that on the other side of the world, there are stories of divorce. Egypt is changing. And the rate of divorce is very high right now in Egypt because women are changing. They don't accept another relationship in their life. They are more independent than they used to be. [00:17:16:07 - 00:17:28:13] Mahal So it was a great experience. We had every day, like a time after the tour to sit and share our stories. [00:17:29:13 - 00:17:32:07] Mahal It was one of the best tours I have ever did in my life. [00:17:33:09 - 00:17:35:03] Mahal And we were dancing all the time. [00:17:35:03 - 00:17:57:15] Abbey I've seen the videos. I've seen videos of you dancing. I've seen videos of sharing stories over tea and things like that. It sounded like an incredible group. So it's not taken away from all of the other departures that you've done with amazing clients and amazing groups before. But I get the sense that this was a really special group of, you know, solo female clients, [00:17:58:18 - 00:18:11:22] Abbey everybody just sharing their stories and kind of stepping out of their comfort zone. And I think you as the group leader really helped everybody sort of gel and get to know each other. So thank you from us for that. Thank you very much. [00:18:13:01 - 00:18:37:12] Abbey Mahal, we keep talking about the gem, the Grand Egyptian Museum. You know, it's something that's a recurring theme in the Jools of Earn office. It's also a recurring theme with our clients and our podcasts and just everything. Everybody is talking about the gem, the Grand Egyptian Museum. But from your point of view, why should people come to Egypt? Why should people see the gem? What is so amazing about it? [00:18:37:12 - 00:19:44:06] Mahal The gem, it's built over like half a million square meters. You go up on skaters till you reach the level of the pyramids. So when you are on the top, you have like a viewing platform looking at the pyramids. And the idea is like there are rays coming from the three pyramids to the building of the gem. As the designer wants to say that the civilization came from the south and went all the way to the north. Then when you enter the first hole, you'll find that the hole is actually divided into three sections. One section it's for society, the other section it's for kingship, and the last section is for beliefs. So if the client is interested to study the society or to look at the society from the prehistoric period up till the Greek or Roman time, he can go on a straight line. So it's very easy for those who are interested in research or studying [00:19:45:11 - 00:19:53:19] Mahal to go on one line studying the society from prehistoric up till the Greek or Roman time. Same thing with the kingship, same thing with the beliefs. [00:19:55:04 - 00:20:19:02] Mahal The other hole of the museum, which is a very large hole, it's housing all the artifacts of Tutankhamun, 5,350 pieces for the first time in the history. All of them are there. Even the little details, his socks when he was a baby, when he was a child, when he was grown up up till 18, gloves, [00:20:20:21 - 00:20:23:09] Mahal even the condom of Tutankhamun is there. [00:20:24:13 - 00:20:46:05] Mahal That's a big surprise, yes. Not everybody showed this, but actually I explained to the clients why he used it and there was a need of using it because his wife was too young to keep the children and she miscarried twice the babies and they advised her to delay having children. [00:20:47:19 - 00:21:07:04] Mahal And then I explained to them how it's used. So even up till that detail exists in the museum. So his underwear, his normal clothes, his cupboards, he used boxes to put his clothes in, the military clothes, the military objects. [00:21:08:05 - 00:21:17:02] Mahal The details in the museum, actually people get fascinated with the details because into the details of the museum, it's an incredible [00:21:18:10 - 00:21:31:21] Mahal chance for everybody to see this. Plus, when you have this Irish and Chinese mind that designed the museum, you feel that the whole world cheered in this museum. [00:21:33:02 - 00:21:43:21] Mahal The construction itself happened between a Belgian construction company and Egyptian construction company. So everybody is just like it's an international museum. [00:21:45:00 - 00:22:37:15] Mahal Everybody shared with something in this museum. It's provided with beautiful coffee shops and restaurants and shops. I feel very proud and the clients feel as well, I feel fascinated, amazed, you can use whatever, but this is the impression I take when I guided the museum. The way they exhibit the pieces, the lighting, it's a new design which is considered a revolution itself in building museums because I have been on a tour for months around Europe and I saw so many museums, but I feel that the gem is something else. And that's what the clients also tell us when they visit the museum. [00:22:37:15 - 00:23:22:00] Abbey I think you're right when you said earlier about it being not just Egypt, it being humanity. I think you've done a really good point there that this is the Museum of Humanity in a way. This is every elite museum and everybody has played a part in it. Everybody should be really proud and everyone should visit, isn't it? Everybody should visit, everybody should go. Exactly, see mankind heritage. Mahal, I've really enjoyed this conversation today. Thank you so much for taking the time to join me and talk about yourself and your history and your country's history and everything. I think it'd be a really nice way to end if you don't mind. If you could maybe share your favorite story from Egyptology, something that you love to talk about and love to share with clients. [00:23:23:03 - 00:23:40:00] Mahal Actually, my heart always goes to an area called Beni Hasem and this is one of the reasons I'm still working with Jules Verne because they are one of the rare agencies in the world right now we do the long cruise. [00:23:41:11 - 00:24:03:15] Mahal So my heart always goes to this Beni Hasem and when the season starts, if I don't do Beni Hasem, I feel I'm missing something and sometimes I take my car and go. Beni Hasem is a very special area because if you want to see the details of the life of the ancient Egyptian, you go to Beni Hasem because daily life activities, [00:24:04:22 - 00:24:11:09] Mahal you see people wrestling. There are like 520 different movements of two men wrestling together. [00:24:12:12 - 00:24:16:03] Mahal From the time they start till the time one of them knocks the other down, [00:24:17:04 - 00:25:06:21] Mahal the old ladies spinning, animals mating or animals just trying to stand on their back legs just to eat from the leaves of the trees. Sycamore trees and they are collecting the fix and then the baboons or the monkeys are by the trees playing and trying to through the fix over the people who are collecting the fix. The details of first night between a man and his wife, it's in Beni Hasem. This is not anywhere else in Egypt. An asylum scene for people wanted to come and stay in Egypt so they are totally different style of dresses. They are coming with their children, with their wives, [00:25:08:15 - 00:25:17:07] Mahal someone who was a governor and used to trade with Africa. He's bringing giraffes and elephants. [00:25:19:04 - 00:25:32:22] Mahal It's daily life. It's totally different than the Valley of the Kings tombs because everybody wants to see the Valley of the Kings of course, but when you see Beni Hasem, it's totally different. The Valley of the Kings, it's good colors, [00:25:34:11 - 00:25:49:20] Mahal but it's not daily life scenes. It's the imagination of the priest of what's going to face the disease in his trip or journey to the second life, to the next life. [00:25:51:08 - 00:25:59:13] Mahal But Beni Hasem is actual life. You see the activities and it's older than the Valley of the Kings, [00:26:00:14 - 00:26:04:08] Mahal not less than 600 years older and the colors are perfect. [00:26:06:00 - 00:26:11:11] Mahal Beni Hasem is my favorite and it's the place that I'd love to go and see. [00:26:12:13 - 00:26:42:05] Mahal Second best place that this is the reason I do the long cruise is Avedos. Avedos is the time of City the First and you know that everybody knows about the tomb of City the First in the Valley of the Kings. It's perfect colors, but also his temple Avedos with colors that you think that they were just finished 100 years ago and the details of the dresses, [00:26:43:23 - 00:26:48:04] Mahal the pleated dresses, the earrings, the necklaces. [00:26:49:17 - 00:26:50:14] Mahal This is one of the [00:26:51:15 - 00:26:59:08] Mahal two places that takes my heart whenever I work as a guide and I feel very proud when I explain [00:27:01:15 - 00:27:15:19] Mahal to my clients about them. And the last comment I hear always from my clients, "You love Egypt. We can see it." And it's just like those are the two places that [00:27:16:22 - 00:27:22:07] Mahal I really want to do the long cruises all the time because of them. I feel very comfort when I work on a long cruise. [00:27:22:07 - 00:27:54:17] Abbey It's really special and thank you so much for sharing that with us. And you're right. I'm lucky enough to have been and the the yetchings and the carvings are completely different and it really does show you what life was like and that history and a completely different side to the pharaohs, the kings and the afterlife. It's really, really special. So thank you for sharing that with us and thank you for joining me today. I've really loved this conversation and I really hope our listeners and our new viewers will enjoy it and love it too. Yeah, we'll come anytime.