WEBVTT 00:00:02.173 --> 00:00:02.754 All right. 00:00:03.115 --> 00:00:05.299 Well, welcome to the show, Damian Keter. 00:00:05.318 --> 00:00:06.641 We are so glad to have you 00:00:06.660 --> 00:00:09.006 with us today on our AOMP hands-on, 00:00:09.086 --> 00:00:10.749 hands-off podcast. 00:00:11.310 --> 00:00:12.352 Thank you for joining us, 00:00:12.371 --> 00:00:13.192 first and foremost. 00:00:13.212 --> 00:00:14.015 We appreciate it. 00:00:15.788 --> 00:00:16.888 I would like to go ahead and 00:00:16.908 --> 00:00:18.248 just welcome our audience 00:00:18.609 --> 00:00:19.690 to our show today. 00:00:20.070 --> 00:00:21.309 And today we're diving into 00:00:21.350 --> 00:00:22.990 a topic about how we engage 00:00:23.010 --> 00:00:24.711 with our patients, our colleagues, 00:00:24.792 --> 00:00:25.751 and the broader healthcare 00:00:25.771 --> 00:00:27.753 community through social media. 00:00:28.513 --> 00:00:30.474 So today our guest is Damian Keeter, 00:00:30.533 --> 00:00:31.833 who has not only leveraged 00:00:31.853 --> 00:00:33.134 social media platforms, 00:00:33.615 --> 00:00:35.015 for professional growth, 00:00:35.036 --> 00:00:36.676 but has also studied it in 00:00:36.756 --> 00:00:39.039 terms of better understanding its impact. 00:00:39.560 --> 00:00:41.901 And so Damien is a clinician researcher. 00:00:42.161 --> 00:00:43.082 He's a dad. 00:00:43.161 --> 00:00:44.682 He's an active outdoorsman. 00:00:44.844 --> 00:00:46.024 I think he likes hunting. 00:00:46.585 --> 00:00:48.445 And he's a fellow Ohioan, 00:00:49.146 --> 00:00:50.067 which I have a special 00:00:50.107 --> 00:00:51.207 place in my heart for. 00:00:51.307 --> 00:00:52.990 So that is awesome. 00:00:53.329 --> 00:00:56.411 And he's actively engaged in OMPT research, 00:00:56.472 --> 00:00:57.972 which is why we are so 00:00:58.014 --> 00:00:58.954 excited to have him on the 00:00:58.973 --> 00:00:59.914 show with us today. 00:00:59.935 --> 00:01:01.015 So maybe you have read or 00:01:01.095 --> 00:01:02.156 listened to some of his work. 00:01:02.936 --> 00:01:05.117 So specifically in our today's episode, 00:01:05.177 --> 00:01:06.198 we want to explore the 00:01:06.338 --> 00:01:08.159 upside and the challenges 00:01:08.519 --> 00:01:09.641 of social media in our 00:01:09.680 --> 00:01:10.941 field and how it can be a 00:01:11.001 --> 00:01:13.362 tool for connection, 00:01:13.662 --> 00:01:15.463 education and advocacy. 00:01:15.703 --> 00:01:16.704 But maybe there's a little 00:01:16.745 --> 00:01:18.085 bit of ethical boundaries 00:01:18.426 --> 00:01:19.286 that we also need to 00:01:19.346 --> 00:01:21.406 explore so we don't cross lines. 00:01:22.028 --> 00:01:23.048 From success stories to 00:01:23.087 --> 00:01:24.168 potential pitfalls and 00:01:24.209 --> 00:01:25.650 valuable lessons along the way, 00:01:25.730 --> 00:01:27.671 Damian has some great insights today. 00:01:27.870 --> 00:01:29.572 that he is going to share with us today. 00:01:29.632 --> 00:01:32.293 So without further ado, let's jump in. 00:01:32.373 --> 00:01:32.972 Welcome, Damian. 00:01:32.992 --> 00:01:33.933 We're glad you're here. 00:01:34.853 --> 00:01:35.515 Thank you, Megan. 00:01:35.555 --> 00:01:36.454 Thank you for having me. 00:01:36.474 --> 00:01:37.756 I'm very excited to be here. 00:01:38.135 --> 00:01:38.855 I do have to give a little 00:01:38.896 --> 00:01:39.897 disclosure as I am a 00:01:39.956 --> 00:01:42.037 federal employee that my 00:01:42.078 --> 00:01:43.158 opinions today are my own. 00:01:43.177 --> 00:01:44.418 They do not represent those 00:01:44.478 --> 00:01:45.278 of the United States 00:01:45.299 --> 00:01:46.138 government or the 00:01:46.159 --> 00:01:47.239 Department of Veteran Affairs. 00:01:47.840 --> 00:01:49.620 So now that we got that out of the way, 00:01:50.240 --> 00:01:51.781 I'm really looking forward to this talk. 00:01:52.337 --> 00:01:53.858 Well, you're the guy. 00:01:53.918 --> 00:01:55.680 So I wanted to have this 00:01:55.721 --> 00:01:58.644 conversation because when I 00:01:58.683 --> 00:02:00.265 was coming into this 00:02:00.725 --> 00:02:02.667 president role of AOMT, 00:02:03.128 --> 00:02:04.849 right before I won the Manila Award, 00:02:05.569 --> 00:02:07.171 we've really needed to be 00:02:07.210 --> 00:02:08.532 challenged about how do we 00:02:08.573 --> 00:02:09.854 engage in social media. 00:02:09.973 --> 00:02:11.876 And so I've been diving in 00:02:11.975 --> 00:02:12.695 and I saw that you 00:02:12.735 --> 00:02:13.877 published an article in 00:02:13.937 --> 00:02:14.978 twenty twenty three, 00:02:15.038 --> 00:02:16.580 which was credible or questionable. 00:02:17.060 --> 00:02:18.100 assessing quality of 00:02:18.140 --> 00:02:19.383 evidence on social media. 00:02:19.883 --> 00:02:21.625 And so you state this in the 00:02:21.664 --> 00:02:23.306 social media platforms that 00:02:23.326 --> 00:02:24.608 they can open the door for 00:02:24.709 --> 00:02:26.110 misinformation that 00:02:26.169 --> 00:02:27.752 challenges evidence-based 00:02:27.792 --> 00:02:29.092 practice and that can 00:02:29.152 --> 00:02:31.256 potentially influence patient care. 00:02:31.656 --> 00:02:33.056 So I would love to dive into 00:02:33.098 --> 00:02:34.118 this a little further. 00:02:34.199 --> 00:02:34.479 I mean, 00:02:34.579 --> 00:02:35.560 I think we'll probably hit 00:02:35.599 --> 00:02:36.540 different tangents and 00:02:36.580 --> 00:02:38.022 facets of the conversation. 00:02:38.843 --> 00:02:40.246 But I can't wait to kind of 00:02:40.286 --> 00:02:41.907 hear your experience with 00:02:41.948 --> 00:02:43.550 this and maybe where did 00:02:43.590 --> 00:02:45.151 you start to find a passion 00:02:45.192 --> 00:02:46.813 to study topic of social 00:02:46.894 --> 00:02:49.477 media as it influences practitioners, 00:02:49.537 --> 00:02:50.479 especially in healthcare? 00:02:51.862 --> 00:02:52.423 Yeah, absolutely. 00:02:52.462 --> 00:02:52.763 Thank you. 00:02:52.802 --> 00:02:54.364 And it is it's, you know, 00:02:54.383 --> 00:02:55.723 it's been a passion of mine 00:02:55.804 --> 00:02:57.743 since I think I was in an 00:02:57.864 --> 00:02:58.943 interesting generation 00:02:58.965 --> 00:03:00.585 because I technically am a millennial. 00:03:01.044 --> 00:03:03.906 I'm on the far end of millennials. 00:03:03.966 --> 00:03:05.246 But because of that, 00:03:05.366 --> 00:03:06.566 I got to kind of see both 00:03:06.626 --> 00:03:07.506 sides of the coin. 00:03:07.545 --> 00:03:08.967 And what I mean by that is, you know, 00:03:09.127 --> 00:03:11.007 I remember the time before 00:03:11.067 --> 00:03:13.106 that connection, before cell phones, 00:03:13.348 --> 00:03:13.568 you know, 00:03:13.587 --> 00:03:14.407 just connecting you to 00:03:14.467 --> 00:03:15.548 everything instantly. 00:03:15.967 --> 00:03:16.888 And then I saw the 00:03:16.927 --> 00:03:18.329 transition towards that. 00:03:18.348 --> 00:03:18.609 So, you know, 00:03:18.628 --> 00:03:19.889 I remember when Facebook 00:03:19.929 --> 00:03:20.729 first came out and I 00:03:20.769 --> 00:03:22.609 remember before it and then after it. 00:03:22.628 --> 00:03:23.330 And so, you know, 00:03:23.409 --> 00:03:24.990 I got to kind of see how 00:03:25.050 --> 00:03:27.471 things changed in real time rather than, 00:03:27.770 --> 00:03:27.991 you know, 00:03:28.070 --> 00:03:29.330 some and I was in the 00:03:29.371 --> 00:03:31.091 generations using those things. 00:03:31.110 --> 00:03:31.950 A lot of these individuals 00:03:32.050 --> 00:03:33.231 using these things and, you know, 00:03:33.292 --> 00:03:34.412 college and stuff like that 00:03:34.451 --> 00:03:35.412 when it when they came out. 00:03:35.451 --> 00:03:35.951 So it was a really 00:03:36.012 --> 00:03:37.592 interesting thing to see 00:03:37.612 --> 00:03:38.592 the transition of it. 00:03:38.652 --> 00:03:39.173 But with that, 00:03:39.252 --> 00:03:40.832 I got to really see some of 00:03:40.853 --> 00:03:42.354 these huge benefits that 00:03:42.373 --> 00:03:43.574 are just awesome. 00:03:44.093 --> 00:03:45.655 as well as we know some 00:03:45.694 --> 00:03:47.776 significant challenges in that domain. 00:03:47.816 --> 00:03:48.656 And so for me, 00:03:48.736 --> 00:03:49.856 I think that's really what 00:03:49.917 --> 00:03:51.337 sparked the interest in it. 00:03:52.038 --> 00:03:53.019 Moving beyond that, 00:03:53.079 --> 00:03:54.780 we've really got to discuss 00:03:54.800 --> 00:03:55.939 this a lot in our residency 00:03:55.979 --> 00:03:57.901 program here at the VA, 00:03:57.961 --> 00:03:59.622 talking about how learners, you know, 00:03:59.641 --> 00:04:00.703 they don't learn the same 00:04:00.723 --> 00:04:01.263 way they used to. 00:04:01.766 --> 00:04:04.269 And as we progress the way we teach things, 00:04:04.649 --> 00:04:05.908 we have to appreciate the 00:04:05.990 --> 00:04:07.430 different understanding and 00:04:07.490 --> 00:04:08.550 leverage of some of these 00:04:08.931 --> 00:04:10.551 social media platforms for 00:04:10.651 --> 00:04:11.973 learning and things like that. 00:04:12.073 --> 00:04:13.313 And I think as I've seen 00:04:13.354 --> 00:04:14.974 that in our classes of 00:04:15.034 --> 00:04:16.375 residents and even students 00:04:16.415 --> 00:04:17.475 coming through the clinic, 00:04:17.935 --> 00:04:19.677 it really has emphasized to me, yes, 00:04:19.716 --> 00:04:20.718 this is something that's interesting, 00:04:20.757 --> 00:04:21.298 but it's also very 00:04:21.338 --> 00:04:22.619 important for us to jump on 00:04:22.658 --> 00:04:24.040 board and make sure we 00:04:24.180 --> 00:04:25.281 utilize this stuff and 00:04:25.341 --> 00:04:26.721 understand this stuff for 00:04:27.021 --> 00:04:29.163 the future learners, for the future PTs. 00:04:29.665 --> 00:04:30.146 Absolutely. 00:04:30.185 --> 00:04:33.629 So analog youth, digital adulthood. 00:04:33.988 --> 00:04:35.470 So you're not a dinosaur. 00:04:35.509 --> 00:04:38.132 You have an appreciation for both sides, 00:04:38.173 --> 00:04:39.052 which is great. 00:04:39.653 --> 00:04:40.894 I resonate with that. 00:04:40.954 --> 00:04:42.415 So just so people know that 00:04:42.636 --> 00:04:45.738 I am not a millennial, close but not. 00:04:46.180 --> 00:04:47.940 And so I appreciate that. 00:04:48.040 --> 00:04:49.182 I think that that gives you 00:04:49.221 --> 00:04:50.824 a really unique perspective 00:04:51.163 --> 00:04:52.204 that you can appreciate 00:04:52.245 --> 00:04:53.946 where students are nowadays 00:04:53.966 --> 00:04:55.026 with all the information 00:04:55.086 --> 00:04:56.608 and the processing and digesting. 00:04:57.088 --> 00:04:57.788 but you will have a 00:04:57.869 --> 00:04:59.589 different kind of awareness 00:04:59.610 --> 00:05:00.529 to it because you didn't 00:05:00.550 --> 00:05:01.790 really grow up during that 00:05:01.831 --> 00:05:03.211 time where they were having 00:05:03.250 --> 00:05:04.992 all of those challenges how 00:05:05.091 --> 00:05:06.692 much to process right so 00:05:07.372 --> 00:05:08.773 now we're in this I would 00:05:08.793 --> 00:05:10.074 say this different age 00:05:10.134 --> 00:05:11.254 right so not only do you 00:05:11.314 --> 00:05:13.535 have so much to process but 00:05:13.574 --> 00:05:14.815 you have to check the 00:05:14.875 --> 00:05:16.355 stories you have to credit 00:05:16.375 --> 00:05:17.757 check we have to figure out 00:05:17.836 --> 00:05:19.918 what is truthful versus 00:05:19.978 --> 00:05:21.598 maybe self-promotion you 00:05:21.617 --> 00:05:23.298 know and I think the old words 00:05:24.249 --> 00:05:25.788 used to be gurus, right? 00:05:25.848 --> 00:05:26.829 Like somebody just had a 00:05:26.990 --> 00:05:29.550 facet or a style that they promoted, 00:05:29.569 --> 00:05:31.029 but it wasn't really always 00:05:31.069 --> 00:05:31.790 evidence-based. 00:05:31.810 --> 00:05:33.891 And I certainly can see that 00:05:33.990 --> 00:05:35.331 even occurring in a social media, 00:05:35.370 --> 00:05:36.850 but with a larger audience 00:05:36.930 --> 00:05:39.132 now between YouTube and 00:05:39.211 --> 00:05:40.771 some of the social media platforms, 00:05:40.812 --> 00:05:44.692 such as Facebook, Instagram, I mean, 00:05:44.713 --> 00:05:45.892 there's all different types. 00:05:45.932 --> 00:05:47.992 I mean, we can get into the, you know, 00:05:48.012 --> 00:05:49.754 the even younger days now, 00:05:49.834 --> 00:05:50.473 how some of those 00:05:50.553 --> 00:05:51.713 individuals are connecting, but 00:05:52.648 --> 00:05:53.649 I would love to hear some of 00:05:53.668 --> 00:05:55.370 your positive experiences 00:05:55.810 --> 00:05:57.033 that you've experienced, maybe, 00:05:57.052 --> 00:05:58.194 or heard through social 00:05:58.233 --> 00:06:01.096 media in our community, healthcare, 00:06:01.177 --> 00:06:03.339 physical therapy, or specific to OMPT. 00:06:03.360 --> 00:06:04.920 And then we'll talk about some pitfalls, 00:06:05.221 --> 00:06:05.862 but let's focus. 00:06:05.882 --> 00:06:07.004 What have been the positives 00:06:07.024 --> 00:06:08.264 that you have seen when 00:06:08.345 --> 00:06:09.225 using social media? 00:06:10.305 --> 00:06:11.346 Yeah, thank you, Megan. 00:06:11.446 --> 00:06:12.427 I think there's a lot there. 00:06:12.526 --> 00:06:14.007 I mean, you see it every day. 00:06:14.088 --> 00:06:15.848 You know, if you're active on social media, 00:06:15.869 --> 00:06:17.670 you see this collaboration 00:06:18.130 --> 00:06:19.951 and reach every single day. 00:06:20.012 --> 00:06:20.413 To me, 00:06:20.452 --> 00:06:23.035 that's really the biggest benefit of 00:06:23.095 --> 00:06:24.596 social media overall is 00:06:24.615 --> 00:06:25.836 this idea that you're able 00:06:25.916 --> 00:06:29.720 to get information to and from, you know, 00:06:30.060 --> 00:06:32.101 far reaches of the 00:06:32.961 --> 00:06:34.723 publications and all those things. 00:06:34.742 --> 00:06:36.545 There's so many journals 00:06:36.584 --> 00:06:37.425 that are publishing 00:06:37.646 --> 00:06:39.166 relevant information to us. 00:06:39.387 --> 00:06:41.048 There's no way as a researcher, 00:06:41.067 --> 00:06:41.908 you're able to keep up with 00:06:41.928 --> 00:06:42.389 all that stuff. 00:06:42.906 --> 00:06:44.067 But if you find some other 00:06:44.086 --> 00:06:45.088 researchers that follow 00:06:45.168 --> 00:06:46.307 similar interests to you, 00:06:46.608 --> 00:06:47.528 you have other people 00:06:47.588 --> 00:06:48.427 siphoning through some of 00:06:48.447 --> 00:06:50.408 that and feeding some of that to you. 00:06:50.468 --> 00:06:51.009 And so it's really 00:06:51.028 --> 00:06:52.269 beneficial to see some of 00:06:52.288 --> 00:06:53.069 this information. 00:06:53.610 --> 00:06:54.670 Furthermore, though, like I said, 00:06:54.689 --> 00:06:55.610 that collaboration, 00:06:56.029 --> 00:06:57.190 really being able to not 00:06:57.271 --> 00:06:58.190 only read an article, 00:06:58.211 --> 00:07:01.012 but ask questions about it or, you know, 00:07:01.052 --> 00:07:03.211 talk directly with the author about this. 00:07:03.552 --> 00:07:05.632 These aren't things you could do twenty, 00:07:05.653 --> 00:07:06.333 thirty years ago. 00:07:06.959 --> 00:07:08.901 I mean, even in the time of, yes, 00:07:08.922 --> 00:07:09.882 we had email, yes, 00:07:09.901 --> 00:07:10.963 there were corresponding 00:07:11.062 --> 00:07:12.244 authors listed on emails, 00:07:12.884 --> 00:07:13.785 a lot of times people 00:07:13.805 --> 00:07:16.067 didn't want to ask them simple questions. 00:07:16.086 --> 00:07:17.908 You didn't want to just ask them, hey, 00:07:17.987 --> 00:07:19.408 what are your thoughts on this? 00:07:19.449 --> 00:07:20.250 Those were things that 00:07:20.290 --> 00:07:21.531 you're comfortable asking 00:07:21.571 --> 00:07:22.531 in kind of an informal 00:07:22.571 --> 00:07:24.273 social media question, 00:07:24.673 --> 00:07:25.494 but it's not something you 00:07:25.514 --> 00:07:27.134 would write an email to a 00:07:27.194 --> 00:07:28.995 world renowned researcher on typically. 00:07:29.055 --> 00:07:30.237 And so I think it really 00:07:30.437 --> 00:07:31.958 opens the door for this 00:07:32.017 --> 00:07:33.399 connection with the authors, 00:07:33.418 --> 00:07:34.100 which is great. 00:07:34.600 --> 00:07:36.922 And my personal experience with this, 00:07:36.942 --> 00:07:37.581 you know, 00:07:37.742 --> 00:07:38.882 I have a good example of this 00:07:38.923 --> 00:07:39.824 that actually happened 00:07:39.903 --> 00:07:41.043 occurred with me earlier 00:07:41.084 --> 00:07:45.086 this year is I saw on Twitter, 00:07:45.286 --> 00:07:46.947 saw on there were now X formally, 00:07:47.228 --> 00:07:48.528 I should say, 00:07:48.569 --> 00:07:50.310 saw an X that Nathan Hooding 00:07:50.891 --> 00:07:53.673 posted a little thing that 00:07:53.713 --> 00:07:54.913 he was coming to the Ohio 00:07:54.952 --> 00:07:55.673 State Conference. 00:07:56.232 --> 00:07:56.351 Now, 00:07:56.471 --> 00:07:57.913 I had no intention of going to the 00:07:57.932 --> 00:07:58.894 Ohio State Conference at 00:07:58.913 --> 00:08:00.295 the time because I just had 00:08:00.334 --> 00:08:01.175 too much stuff going on. 00:08:01.315 --> 00:08:02.937 And it was right around my birthday. 00:08:02.976 --> 00:08:04.317 But regardless, 00:08:04.959 --> 00:08:06.540 I saw that he was coming to Ohio. 00:08:06.639 --> 00:08:07.821 And I said, this guy's a big deal. 00:08:07.880 --> 00:08:08.841 I love his work. 00:08:09.322 --> 00:08:11.403 You know, why is he coming to Ohio? 00:08:11.444 --> 00:08:13.526 Hey, no one goes to Ohio, right? 00:08:14.545 --> 00:08:16.348 But I said, he's coming to Ohio. 00:08:16.408 --> 00:08:18.149 So I reached out to Ken Learman, 00:08:18.189 --> 00:08:19.911 another Ohioan, a fellow Ohioan. 00:08:19.990 --> 00:08:21.612 I said, Ken, get in the car. 00:08:22.072 --> 00:08:23.153 We're going to Columbus. 00:08:23.273 --> 00:08:24.353 We're going to go to this conference. 00:08:25.012 --> 00:08:26.572 And we ended up going to 00:08:26.593 --> 00:08:28.375 this conference in Columbus, Ohio, 00:08:28.394 --> 00:08:30.675 which we actually ran into yours truly, 00:08:30.716 --> 00:08:33.697 Megan Battles, at that conference. 00:08:33.717 --> 00:08:36.780 And we went just for Nathan's talk. 00:08:36.801 --> 00:08:37.240 And it was really 00:08:37.280 --> 00:08:38.081 interesting because we went 00:08:38.101 --> 00:08:38.501 in the morning. 00:08:38.522 --> 00:08:39.702 We're sitting there eating breakfast. 00:08:40.102 --> 00:08:41.563 And I had seen his pictures, again, 00:08:41.683 --> 00:08:42.865 only because of social media. 00:08:43.546 --> 00:08:44.806 There's Nathan standing over 00:08:44.826 --> 00:08:46.488 in the corner just eating breakfast, 00:08:46.587 --> 00:08:48.028 kind of hanging out, looking around. 00:08:48.089 --> 00:08:48.769 And so I went over there. 00:08:48.788 --> 00:08:49.509 I said, are you Nathan? 00:08:49.529 --> 00:08:49.610 Yeah. 00:08:50.066 --> 00:08:51.067 He's like, yeah. 00:08:51.427 --> 00:08:52.508 And so we got to chatting 00:08:52.847 --> 00:08:53.648 and it was great because we 00:08:53.687 --> 00:08:55.028 ended up going to his talk. 00:08:55.428 --> 00:08:56.870 We ended up having lunch with them. 00:08:57.211 --> 00:08:58.772 And then this led to the idea of, hey, 00:08:58.812 --> 00:08:59.812 we should write a paper together. 00:09:00.113 --> 00:09:00.753 And then we did. 00:09:00.932 --> 00:09:02.453 We collaborated. 00:09:02.553 --> 00:09:03.754 We wrote one paper together, 00:09:03.774 --> 00:09:04.634 which has been published in 00:09:04.674 --> 00:09:06.015 JSPT Open on person 00:09:06.035 --> 00:09:06.917 centered manual therapy. 00:09:07.236 --> 00:09:08.077 And we actually have another 00:09:08.177 --> 00:09:09.719 one in peer review on social media. 00:09:10.139 --> 00:09:11.460 And so it's really this 00:09:11.500 --> 00:09:12.801 collaboration would have 00:09:12.841 --> 00:09:14.062 never happened if it wasn't 00:09:14.101 --> 00:09:15.261 for that social media. 00:09:15.282 --> 00:09:15.481 You know, 00:09:15.543 --> 00:09:16.923 me seeing that he happened to be 00:09:16.982 --> 00:09:17.524 presenting 00:09:18.083 --> 00:09:19.164 at the state conference. 00:09:19.504 --> 00:09:20.206 And the funny thing about 00:09:20.245 --> 00:09:20.946 that is when I asked him 00:09:21.025 --> 00:09:22.687 why he was at the Ohio State Conference, 00:09:23.086 --> 00:09:24.288 he just said, I don't know, 00:09:24.327 --> 00:09:25.568 it seemed like Ohio was a 00:09:25.589 --> 00:09:27.509 cool place to check out. 00:09:27.529 --> 00:09:28.770 You have no other reason to be. 00:09:29.051 --> 00:09:31.173 Ohio is a cool place to check out. 00:09:31.192 --> 00:09:31.793 That's right. 00:09:31.832 --> 00:09:31.993 It is. 00:09:35.287 --> 00:09:36.187 Oh, that's great. 00:09:36.528 --> 00:09:37.928 Well, and I and I appreciate that, 00:09:38.068 --> 00:09:38.389 you know, 00:09:38.690 --> 00:09:39.931 and I think what's nice now is 00:09:39.951 --> 00:09:40.971 like on social media, 00:09:41.312 --> 00:09:42.572 you can follow people. 00:09:42.673 --> 00:09:44.553 And again, it hits your feed, right? 00:09:44.653 --> 00:09:46.495 It hits the you have the 00:09:46.534 --> 00:09:47.816 opportunity to not have to 00:09:47.875 --> 00:09:50.258 work hard to keep up if you 00:09:50.298 --> 00:09:51.499 want to follow researchers 00:09:51.639 --> 00:09:52.600 or see what they share. 00:09:52.679 --> 00:09:52.899 Right. 00:09:53.280 --> 00:09:54.802 So, again, infographics. 00:09:55.582 --> 00:09:56.962 those didn't exist years ago, 00:09:57.243 --> 00:09:58.604 widely shared now that 00:09:58.644 --> 00:09:59.443 helps you to really 00:09:59.484 --> 00:10:02.325 translate what you're seeing in research, 00:10:02.365 --> 00:10:03.884 how it translates to practice. 00:10:03.965 --> 00:10:04.345 And so, 00:10:04.806 --> 00:10:07.346 so much of this is good information 00:10:07.365 --> 00:10:09.147 sharing when done well. 00:10:09.267 --> 00:10:10.206 And I think that that's what 00:10:10.226 --> 00:10:11.447 you're expressing is you 00:10:11.466 --> 00:10:12.707 get to touch base with 00:10:13.087 --> 00:10:15.067 researchers who are living that. 00:10:15.168 --> 00:10:16.048 And I would even say 00:10:16.129 --> 00:10:17.349 clinicians who are really 00:10:17.749 --> 00:10:18.749 presenting and doing the 00:10:18.788 --> 00:10:20.690 things that highlight the 00:10:20.909 --> 00:10:22.669 hard work and growth that 00:10:22.690 --> 00:10:24.471 they have built as a professional and 00:10:24.812 --> 00:10:25.712 What a unique way to 00:10:25.753 --> 00:10:26.653 collaborate and then 00:10:26.714 --> 00:10:28.293 connect even in person. 00:10:28.354 --> 00:10:30.335 So hybrid is one of my 00:10:30.375 --> 00:10:32.095 favorite conversations for another day. 00:10:32.134 --> 00:10:33.956 But in person and then 00:10:33.995 --> 00:10:35.255 virtual and then it comes 00:10:35.275 --> 00:10:36.535 together in a really great, 00:10:36.596 --> 00:10:37.616 great collaboration. 00:10:37.636 --> 00:10:38.856 So what a great positive 00:10:40.356 --> 00:10:42.238 success story for a good use of that. 00:10:42.748 --> 00:10:44.068 So now I want to change 00:10:44.089 --> 00:10:45.350 directions a little bit, 00:10:45.450 --> 00:10:46.429 and I certainly think you 00:10:46.450 --> 00:10:48.251 could probably speak to this as well. 00:10:48.312 --> 00:10:49.131 But what are some of the 00:10:49.172 --> 00:10:50.153 challenges or common 00:10:50.212 --> 00:10:51.854 pitfalls that you or others 00:10:51.894 --> 00:10:53.595 have faced while navigating 00:10:53.634 --> 00:10:55.135 social media in this space, 00:10:55.176 --> 00:10:58.317 maybe as a researcher, highly recognized, 00:10:58.557 --> 00:10:59.798 or maybe just as a 00:10:59.859 --> 00:11:01.159 clinician navigating it? 00:11:02.678 --> 00:11:03.539 Yeah, 00:11:03.580 --> 00:11:05.822 this is a challenging topic because I 00:11:05.841 --> 00:11:06.682 think that there's, you know, 00:11:06.702 --> 00:11:07.683 the common term that always 00:11:07.724 --> 00:11:08.965 comes up is misinformation, 00:11:09.264 --> 00:11:10.886 misinformation, disinformation. 00:11:10.947 --> 00:11:12.327 I think we all know that 00:11:12.347 --> 00:11:13.308 there's a lot of stuff out 00:11:13.328 --> 00:11:15.350 there that's just total and utter BS, 00:11:15.451 --> 00:11:15.611 right? 00:11:15.652 --> 00:11:16.432 We know that there's a lot 00:11:16.451 --> 00:11:17.432 of stuff out there that's 00:11:17.452 --> 00:11:18.754 just not accurate. 00:11:19.394 --> 00:11:20.655 The challenge isn't even 00:11:20.716 --> 00:11:21.918 from this information just 00:11:21.957 --> 00:11:22.457 being out there. 00:11:22.518 --> 00:11:23.879 Yes, that's a problem, right? 00:11:23.899 --> 00:11:25.740 But we know that that's 00:11:26.042 --> 00:11:27.263 something that can be addressed. 00:11:27.832 --> 00:11:29.394 The challenge comes from all 00:11:29.413 --> 00:11:30.554 the stuff that surrounds 00:11:30.575 --> 00:11:31.755 the misinformation to me. 00:11:31.796 --> 00:11:32.856 And one of these things is 00:11:33.177 --> 00:11:34.818 the way that it's often presented. 00:11:35.139 --> 00:11:35.379 Right. 00:11:35.678 --> 00:11:36.500 A lot of times this 00:11:36.559 --> 00:11:38.020 misinformation comes from 00:11:38.181 --> 00:11:39.982 sources that have a lot of 00:11:40.043 --> 00:11:41.864 time to designate to this. 00:11:41.884 --> 00:11:44.446 OK, I'm a full time clinician. 00:11:44.706 --> 00:11:46.908 All my research is on my own time. 00:11:47.328 --> 00:11:49.931 You know, everyone in this area of study, 00:11:50.051 --> 00:11:50.510 you know, 00:11:50.530 --> 00:11:52.212 that's highly involved in own PT. 00:11:53.363 --> 00:11:55.083 has a lot of things they're involved in, 00:11:55.104 --> 00:11:56.745 whether it's teaching, research, you know, 00:11:56.765 --> 00:11:57.505 they have all of these 00:11:57.605 --> 00:11:58.647 really important things 00:11:59.006 --> 00:12:00.207 where typically social 00:12:00.268 --> 00:12:01.989 media is kind of a side 00:12:02.009 --> 00:12:03.090 thing they do when they log 00:12:03.149 --> 00:12:03.850 in when they can, 00:12:03.910 --> 00:12:04.991 where when you see a lot of 00:12:05.011 --> 00:12:06.052 these individuals that are 00:12:06.133 --> 00:12:09.134 posting just utter BS, 00:12:09.274 --> 00:12:10.755 the real misinformation 00:12:10.775 --> 00:12:12.037 stuff that we all can look at and say, 00:12:12.057 --> 00:12:13.317 this is misinformation. 00:12:14.033 --> 00:12:14.994 they're individuals where 00:12:15.114 --> 00:12:16.634 this is their thing they 00:12:16.653 --> 00:12:17.754 don't have all of these 00:12:17.815 --> 00:12:18.774 other things they're doing 00:12:18.815 --> 00:12:20.416 to to occupy their time 00:12:20.735 --> 00:12:21.636 they have a lot of time to 00:12:21.677 --> 00:12:22.636 invest in this and it's a 00:12:22.677 --> 00:12:24.337 really unfortunate for 00:12:24.378 --> 00:12:25.599 people like us because we 00:12:25.639 --> 00:12:26.678 log in you know to some of 00:12:26.698 --> 00:12:27.379 these social media 00:12:27.399 --> 00:12:28.840 platforms a couple times a 00:12:28.860 --> 00:12:30.181 day maybe for short periods 00:12:30.240 --> 00:12:31.121 of time while we're doing 00:12:31.162 --> 00:12:32.302 something else whereas 00:12:32.361 --> 00:12:33.302 these individuals might be 00:12:33.403 --> 00:12:34.102 sitting in front of that 00:12:34.143 --> 00:12:35.844 computer screen all day and 00:12:35.923 --> 00:12:36.783 with that it makes it 00:12:36.803 --> 00:12:37.865 challenging because they're 00:12:37.945 --> 00:12:39.885 firing this stuff non-stop 00:12:40.326 --> 00:12:41.727 And they're able to continue 00:12:41.788 --> 00:12:43.207 to just try to support 00:12:43.248 --> 00:12:44.168 their own thoughts and 00:12:44.188 --> 00:12:45.908 beliefs and some of these biases. 00:12:46.249 --> 00:12:49.091 And it makes it really challenging. 00:12:49.171 --> 00:12:49.910 On top of that, 00:12:50.230 --> 00:12:50.770 there's the way that 00:12:50.791 --> 00:12:52.231 they're able to communicate, right? 00:12:53.091 --> 00:12:55.692 I work for the United States government. 00:12:56.212 --> 00:12:57.813 Most people that work in 00:12:58.173 --> 00:12:59.774 different OMPT settings 00:13:00.154 --> 00:13:01.674 work for high-level 00:13:01.716 --> 00:13:03.775 institutions or different 00:13:03.816 --> 00:13:04.937 academic institutions. 00:13:05.476 --> 00:13:07.898 They can't go on social media and just 00:13:08.578 --> 00:13:10.120 curse and, you know, 00:13:10.821 --> 00:13:12.764 discuss things in an inappropriate way. 00:13:12.823 --> 00:13:14.085 And so they have to be 00:13:14.125 --> 00:13:15.245 careful about how they're 00:13:15.285 --> 00:13:16.768 presenting this information. 00:13:17.227 --> 00:13:18.328 And that's a challenge when 00:13:18.349 --> 00:13:19.309 you have individuals who 00:13:19.389 --> 00:13:21.371 might not have those same, you know, 00:13:21.413 --> 00:13:22.833 handcuffs to them that 00:13:22.874 --> 00:13:24.696 might be able to just speak 00:13:24.755 --> 00:13:25.636 more frequently on things 00:13:25.677 --> 00:13:26.437 and get a little bit more 00:13:26.477 --> 00:13:27.479 aggressive with things. 00:13:27.966 --> 00:13:28.668 And so it's really 00:13:28.687 --> 00:13:29.688 challenging because you see 00:13:29.729 --> 00:13:30.529 some of these individuals 00:13:30.549 --> 00:13:31.370 that present this very 00:13:31.451 --> 00:13:33.533 typical narcissistic type 00:13:33.614 --> 00:13:34.816 of communication. 00:13:34.836 --> 00:13:35.436 And they've done a couple of 00:13:35.456 --> 00:13:36.518 studies on this to show 00:13:36.977 --> 00:13:37.839 that they present this. 00:13:37.899 --> 00:13:39.000 A lot of times this social 00:13:39.041 --> 00:13:40.162 media personalities present 00:13:40.182 --> 00:13:41.403 this narcissistic type of 00:13:42.205 --> 00:13:43.846 information and way of 00:13:43.907 --> 00:13:44.847 communicating on things 00:13:45.227 --> 00:13:46.529 that people in professional 00:13:46.610 --> 00:13:47.370 academic settings 00:13:48.258 --> 00:13:49.658 won't put up with. 00:13:49.719 --> 00:13:51.399 They'll just remove themselves from that. 00:13:51.419 --> 00:13:53.020 So now we're in a situation 00:13:53.041 --> 00:13:53.640 where we have these 00:13:53.660 --> 00:13:55.182 individuals who are posting 00:13:55.201 --> 00:13:56.003 this misinformation, 00:13:56.863 --> 00:13:57.923 who are presenting more of 00:13:57.984 --> 00:13:59.004 it because they have the tie, 00:13:59.384 --> 00:14:00.245 and then presenting it in 00:14:00.325 --> 00:14:01.485 more aggressive ways 00:14:01.525 --> 00:14:02.525 because they don't have 00:14:02.566 --> 00:14:03.746 these same kind of ethical 00:14:03.787 --> 00:14:05.347 constraints limiting what 00:14:05.368 --> 00:14:06.349 they're able to say. 00:14:06.948 --> 00:14:09.049 And so it floods things a bit. 00:14:09.269 --> 00:14:10.650 And so it really does make 00:14:10.711 --> 00:14:12.131 things challenging for us 00:14:12.331 --> 00:14:14.192 as consumers of that 00:14:14.253 --> 00:14:15.793 information to kind of siphon through. 00:14:16.969 --> 00:14:17.828 Absolutely. 00:14:17.869 --> 00:14:19.429 And it becomes polarizing, right? 00:14:19.809 --> 00:14:21.091 Do you engage in that? 00:14:21.230 --> 00:14:24.753 Do you, do you give feedback back to, 00:14:24.972 --> 00:14:25.352 you know, 00:14:25.592 --> 00:14:27.073 that individual and most likely 00:14:27.153 --> 00:14:28.475 not at times, right? 00:14:28.554 --> 00:14:29.355 Unfortunately, 00:14:29.754 --> 00:14:31.336 that's usually when people withdraw. 00:14:31.515 --> 00:14:33.557 And so then the individuals 00:14:33.576 --> 00:14:34.898 have even bigger platform 00:14:34.937 --> 00:14:36.499 because there's no pushback. 00:14:36.859 --> 00:14:38.419 And so we have seen this, right? 00:14:38.620 --> 00:14:39.820 And I would say, I mean, 00:14:40.159 --> 00:14:41.140 for those who are listening, 00:14:41.201 --> 00:14:43.341 manual therapy has swung the pendulum. 00:14:44.240 --> 00:14:45.481 over a short period of time, 00:14:45.501 --> 00:14:47.144 whether you use it or don't use it. 00:14:47.543 --> 00:14:49.186 And I think you can see this 00:14:49.346 --> 00:14:51.908 is a testimony to some of 00:14:52.428 --> 00:14:54.390 the social media platforms 00:14:54.571 --> 00:14:56.833 and big individuals who 00:14:57.759 --> 00:14:58.938 feel like that that's a 00:14:58.979 --> 00:15:00.679 platform that they want to speak towards. 00:15:00.820 --> 00:15:04.160 And so I hear some of the challenges, 00:15:04.201 --> 00:15:04.921 but definitely the 00:15:05.020 --> 00:15:06.241 misinformation or 00:15:06.282 --> 00:15:07.961 disinformation is something 00:15:08.001 --> 00:15:10.923 that I believe our next 00:15:11.264 --> 00:15:12.823 generation of practitioners 00:15:12.923 --> 00:15:14.465 have to navigate through 00:15:14.865 --> 00:15:16.544 because it makes it really 00:15:16.605 --> 00:15:19.586 hard to know what's truthful, right? 00:15:20.027 --> 00:15:22.506 I mean, we see this in our TVs every night, 00:15:22.567 --> 00:15:23.868 what's truthful, what's not. 00:15:23.908 --> 00:15:25.148 And it's so hard to kind of 00:15:25.207 --> 00:15:27.249 navigate that balance, especially 00:15:28.227 --> 00:15:29.009 a younger version of 00:15:29.028 --> 00:15:30.230 yourself who's just now 00:15:30.292 --> 00:15:32.595 coming into the PT profession, 00:15:32.634 --> 00:15:34.138 trying to digest as much as 00:15:34.158 --> 00:15:35.099 you can so you can give 00:15:35.119 --> 00:15:36.181 your best patient care. 00:15:36.581 --> 00:15:37.903 Navigating it is really hard. 00:15:38.361 --> 00:15:39.542 So I appreciate that. 00:15:39.642 --> 00:15:40.322 It's hard. 00:15:40.402 --> 00:15:42.423 It's so hard. 00:15:42.883 --> 00:15:44.383 So that takes me to our next 00:15:44.403 --> 00:15:45.864 spot where I wanted to ask 00:15:45.903 --> 00:15:47.504 you with all of the amount 00:15:47.543 --> 00:15:49.424 of information that's online, 00:15:49.524 --> 00:15:51.585 how do you suggest that 00:15:51.764 --> 00:15:53.184 OMPT practitioners, 00:15:53.225 --> 00:15:55.005 those who are listening in our audience, 00:15:55.066 --> 00:15:57.385 stay evidence-based and try 00:15:57.405 --> 00:15:58.307 to avoid some of this 00:15:58.427 --> 00:16:00.187 misinformation that we're talking about? 00:16:01.696 --> 00:16:02.897 Yeah, thank you for that, 00:16:02.917 --> 00:16:03.976 because I think that's important. 00:16:04.037 --> 00:16:04.236 You know, 00:16:04.256 --> 00:16:05.638 we're going to get this information. 00:16:05.697 --> 00:16:06.738 It's how do you how do you 00:16:06.798 --> 00:16:07.958 kind of siphon through this? 00:16:07.979 --> 00:16:09.299 And I think one of the 00:16:09.320 --> 00:16:10.600 things I really like to 00:16:10.659 --> 00:16:12.581 have some of our residents 00:16:12.620 --> 00:16:13.461 and some young learners 00:16:13.522 --> 00:16:14.861 reflect on for everything, 00:16:14.881 --> 00:16:15.923 but including the social 00:16:15.942 --> 00:16:18.864 media stuff is why do they feel that way? 00:16:18.943 --> 00:16:20.544 What is the other side of this? 00:16:20.585 --> 00:16:20.745 Right. 00:16:20.784 --> 00:16:22.245 We all see things through 00:16:22.285 --> 00:16:23.905 our own personal biases, which is OK. 00:16:23.946 --> 00:16:24.927 You can't get rid of those. 00:16:24.966 --> 00:16:25.147 Right. 00:16:25.774 --> 00:16:27.154 But it's important when you 00:16:27.195 --> 00:16:28.355 look at these things to say, 00:16:28.894 --> 00:16:30.556 why do you think that this 00:16:30.635 --> 00:16:32.397 person sees things this way? 00:16:32.437 --> 00:16:33.857 So you can see maybe some of 00:16:33.918 --> 00:16:35.278 the rationale they have 00:16:35.317 --> 00:16:36.678 behind some of these things. 00:16:36.778 --> 00:16:37.958 And it's really interesting 00:16:37.979 --> 00:16:39.419 because a lot of times when you do that, 00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:42.061 you're able to dive into 00:16:42.140 --> 00:16:44.261 some of their tactics and 00:16:44.302 --> 00:16:45.383 things along those lines 00:16:45.462 --> 00:16:46.783 just by assessing that kind 00:16:46.802 --> 00:16:47.624 of other side of the coin. 00:16:47.644 --> 00:16:48.803 Yes, this is how I see things. 00:16:49.144 --> 00:16:50.485 I see this as total BS. 00:16:50.965 --> 00:16:53.706 They're presenting this way, but why? 00:16:53.986 --> 00:16:55.388 What is the rationale behind that? 00:16:55.427 --> 00:16:56.808 And I think a lot of times 00:16:57.249 --> 00:16:58.470 you can get that by looking 00:16:58.529 --> 00:17:00.091 at the source itself. 00:17:00.211 --> 00:17:01.832 And that's why I wrote that 00:17:01.893 --> 00:17:04.153 JOSBT blog you were talking about, 00:17:04.173 --> 00:17:05.234 that credible or questionable, 00:17:05.255 --> 00:17:06.175 that's where that came from, 00:17:06.516 --> 00:17:07.256 is looking at this, 00:17:07.676 --> 00:17:09.817 assessing the source this is coming from. 00:17:10.695 --> 00:17:11.635 And one of the things I did 00:17:11.675 --> 00:17:12.817 for that is put together 00:17:12.836 --> 00:17:13.817 this little algorithm, 00:17:13.836 --> 00:17:15.017 which was kind of comical, 00:17:15.037 --> 00:17:16.718 but it's this idea of you 00:17:16.738 --> 00:17:19.019 get this information presented to you. 00:17:19.239 --> 00:17:20.199 You have to establish where 00:17:20.239 --> 00:17:20.959 this is coming from. 00:17:21.019 --> 00:17:23.220 Now, is this person a content expert, 00:17:23.259 --> 00:17:23.460 right? 00:17:23.500 --> 00:17:24.519 Because if the information, 00:17:24.559 --> 00:17:25.621 if this is just an article 00:17:25.641 --> 00:17:26.661 that's presented to you and 00:17:26.681 --> 00:17:27.941 somebody says interesting 00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:30.162 read and puts it on social media, right, 00:17:30.642 --> 00:17:31.563 they're opening it up for 00:17:31.583 --> 00:17:32.423 your interpretation. 00:17:32.442 --> 00:17:32.883 That's great. 00:17:33.702 --> 00:17:34.682 I would say at that point, 00:17:35.864 --> 00:17:36.844 they're still allowing you 00:17:36.884 --> 00:17:38.903 to assess that evidence at 00:17:39.144 --> 00:17:40.305 its level of evidence based 00:17:40.345 --> 00:17:41.424 on the study design. 00:17:41.984 --> 00:17:43.984 As soon as that person puts 00:17:44.045 --> 00:17:46.046 a twist on that or spin on that saying, 00:17:46.425 --> 00:17:47.925 this article is total BS 00:17:48.185 --> 00:17:49.747 because it doesn't agree with blah, blah, 00:17:49.767 --> 00:17:50.047 blah, 00:17:50.467 --> 00:17:53.048 or they did this the wrong way because A, 00:17:53.087 --> 00:17:53.667 B, C, 00:17:54.028 --> 00:17:55.167 D. As soon as they provide that 00:17:55.228 --> 00:17:55.867 twist on that, 00:17:56.327 --> 00:17:57.929 that regresses that a bit 00:17:58.108 --> 00:17:58.929 to expert opinion. 00:18:00.069 --> 00:18:01.871 And even then, we have to ask ourselves, 00:18:01.931 --> 00:18:03.010 is this person an expert? 00:18:03.392 --> 00:18:04.071 Because anyone who's 00:18:04.132 --> 00:18:06.053 published knows you have an 00:18:06.153 --> 00:18:07.875 editor and a couple of peer 00:18:07.914 --> 00:18:09.355 reviewers who are looking 00:18:09.415 --> 00:18:10.817 at your study before 00:18:10.836 --> 00:18:13.137 they're published who are actual experts. 00:18:13.618 --> 00:18:15.098 So you have people who are very, 00:18:15.140 --> 00:18:15.900 very qualified, 00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:16.701 who have already looked at 00:18:16.740 --> 00:18:18.582 these studies in most cases. 00:18:19.082 --> 00:18:20.544 to review them to see to 00:18:20.584 --> 00:18:22.346 make sure it is you know 00:18:22.626 --> 00:18:24.528 done in a appropriate way 00:18:24.970 --> 00:18:26.592 and so then you get to a 00:18:26.652 --> 00:18:28.074 point of an expert or maybe 00:18:28.114 --> 00:18:28.954 it is a real expert 00:18:29.115 --> 00:18:30.958 offering the opinion then 00:18:31.018 --> 00:18:31.858 you have to assess 00:18:32.636 --> 00:18:33.698 does this person have any 00:18:33.738 --> 00:18:34.917 conflict of interest, right? 00:18:35.298 --> 00:18:37.939 We, as authors, we have to disclose that. 00:18:37.999 --> 00:18:39.839 When I submit a paper, big, you know, 00:18:40.019 --> 00:18:40.800 big disclosure. 00:18:40.820 --> 00:18:42.020 Are there any conflicts of interest? 00:18:42.101 --> 00:18:43.541 Are you making any money by 00:18:43.582 --> 00:18:44.801 this opinion you're presenting? 00:18:45.442 --> 00:18:47.083 That's not present in social media. 00:18:47.503 --> 00:18:49.984 And so it makes things challenging, right? 00:18:50.025 --> 00:18:51.464 Because you have individuals 00:18:51.484 --> 00:18:53.006 that that is their livelihood. 00:18:53.576 --> 00:18:54.717 right you have to ask 00:18:54.737 --> 00:18:56.719 yourself is this person you 00:18:56.739 --> 00:18:58.660 know relevant and that's 00:18:58.680 --> 00:19:00.000 why people follow them on 00:19:00.060 --> 00:19:01.663 social media or is this 00:19:01.722 --> 00:19:03.183 person only relevant 00:19:03.243 --> 00:19:04.365 because of their social 00:19:04.404 --> 00:19:05.586 media and unfortunately we 00:19:05.645 --> 00:19:06.727 have a lot of these folks 00:19:06.987 --> 00:19:08.188 that are only relevant in 00:19:08.208 --> 00:19:10.289 the profession because of 00:19:10.369 --> 00:19:11.250 what their these 00:19:11.329 --> 00:19:12.411 personalities they've 00:19:12.471 --> 00:19:14.452 created on social media and 00:19:14.492 --> 00:19:16.634 so you take this and if you 00:19:16.674 --> 00:19:19.237 say this person maybe is selling courses 00:19:19.809 --> 00:19:21.010 is selling products and a 00:19:21.050 --> 00:19:22.071 lot of times it's obvious 00:19:22.452 --> 00:19:23.253 you'll see this this 00:19:23.273 --> 00:19:24.375 doesn't agree with you know 00:19:24.535 --> 00:19:26.616 ABCD OMPT is not 00:19:26.656 --> 00:19:27.657 evidence-based there's no 00:19:27.698 --> 00:19:28.499 reason you should you 00:19:28.519 --> 00:19:29.440 should receive training in 00:19:29.460 --> 00:19:31.080 it by the way here are some 00:19:31.101 --> 00:19:32.603 courses I'm doing you know 00:19:32.702 --> 00:19:33.703 follow me on Instagram 00:19:33.864 --> 00:19:35.464 follow me on Twitter right 00:19:35.505 --> 00:19:36.185 and so it's usually 00:19:36.226 --> 00:19:37.106 followed up with something 00:19:37.146 --> 00:19:39.009 that leads to direct financial gain 00:19:39.619 --> 00:19:41.701 OK, but they don't have to disclose that. 00:19:41.740 --> 00:19:42.602 But a lot of times you're 00:19:42.622 --> 00:19:44.261 able to work through and kind of see that, 00:19:44.843 --> 00:19:45.103 you know, 00:19:45.163 --> 00:19:46.403 see that conflicts of interest 00:19:46.423 --> 00:19:48.064 that they have on top of that, 00:19:48.263 --> 00:19:49.884 really diving into the references. 00:19:49.944 --> 00:19:50.865 And that's what I really 00:19:50.885 --> 00:19:52.506 like to promote individuals 00:19:52.546 --> 00:19:53.567 going on social media. 00:19:54.166 --> 00:19:55.847 Yes, if somebody shares this article, 00:19:56.468 --> 00:19:57.709 you can glance at their opinion, 00:19:58.068 --> 00:19:59.630 but read that article yourself. 00:20:00.244 --> 00:20:02.086 You know, it's like abstracts in studies. 00:20:02.126 --> 00:20:03.748 They've done they've done reviews on this. 00:20:03.827 --> 00:20:03.928 Right. 00:20:03.948 --> 00:20:04.729 And what have we found is 00:20:04.749 --> 00:20:05.869 that individuals are able 00:20:05.910 --> 00:20:07.651 to spin abstracts even to 00:20:07.691 --> 00:20:09.653 make them sound like what 00:20:09.692 --> 00:20:10.854 supports their beliefs. 00:20:11.233 --> 00:20:12.255 And so do you think people 00:20:12.295 --> 00:20:13.615 on social media can do 00:20:13.675 --> 00:20:15.096 similar things by spinning 00:20:15.176 --> 00:20:16.939 their idea of what the results show? 00:20:17.479 --> 00:20:17.739 Yeah. 00:20:18.180 --> 00:20:20.280 So read it, read it yourself, pull it up, 00:20:20.402 --> 00:20:22.502 look at it, you know, send it, 00:20:22.643 --> 00:20:24.365 send the email or a message 00:20:24.404 --> 00:20:24.984 to the author. 00:20:25.025 --> 00:20:25.806 If you have questions, 00:20:26.086 --> 00:20:26.967 don't just listen to 00:20:27.007 --> 00:20:28.048 somebody else's opinion. 00:20:29.898 --> 00:20:30.078 Well, 00:20:30.159 --> 00:20:32.059 and I love the algorithm in your paper. 00:20:32.180 --> 00:20:34.060 So I will say I'm a little 00:20:34.080 --> 00:20:35.521 bit of a geek self-proclaimed, 00:20:35.561 --> 00:20:36.642 so you can say it back to 00:20:36.662 --> 00:20:37.762 me and it's totally okay. 00:20:38.323 --> 00:20:40.003 But I really appreciate the 00:20:40.023 --> 00:20:41.325 way that this article kind 00:20:41.365 --> 00:20:42.265 of breaks that down. 00:20:42.664 --> 00:20:43.826 And I think, you know, 00:20:44.026 --> 00:20:45.606 I always think about flow charts. 00:20:45.886 --> 00:20:46.727 I like structure, 00:20:46.767 --> 00:20:48.407 so that's not lost on people who know me, 00:20:48.448 --> 00:20:51.009 but I like a way that helps 00:20:51.028 --> 00:20:53.631 somebody navigate through a 00:20:53.691 --> 00:20:56.051 lot of information and a process helps. 00:20:56.416 --> 00:20:57.577 And I think that algorithm 00:20:57.637 --> 00:20:59.578 is really helpful where, you know, 00:20:59.659 --> 00:21:00.779 I would say a flow chart, right? 00:21:00.859 --> 00:21:02.020 It's guiding you through 00:21:02.540 --> 00:21:04.482 asking you to ask yourself questions, 00:21:05.682 --> 00:21:07.585 a reflective opportunity to say, 00:21:08.204 --> 00:21:10.787 where is the information coming from? 00:21:11.467 --> 00:21:13.568 How do they gain and benefit from it? 00:21:14.088 --> 00:21:16.371 And, you know, when you're stepping back, 00:21:16.671 --> 00:21:18.491 what ways can you either 00:21:18.592 --> 00:21:20.973 prove or validate that information? 00:21:21.114 --> 00:21:21.213 And 00:21:21.601 --> 00:21:21.980 And again, 00:21:22.040 --> 00:21:23.442 I think you're spot on having 00:21:23.481 --> 00:21:25.363 opportunities in really positive ways, 00:21:25.383 --> 00:21:26.683 like having you on this 00:21:26.703 --> 00:21:29.005 show and having some of our podcasts. 00:21:29.424 --> 00:21:29.664 You know, 00:21:29.744 --> 00:21:31.405 we hope to be able to highlight 00:21:31.445 --> 00:21:33.307 that these individuals not only write it, 00:21:33.346 --> 00:21:33.926 they believe it, 00:21:33.967 --> 00:21:35.167 but then they show the 00:21:35.248 --> 00:21:37.169 research right about what 00:21:37.189 --> 00:21:38.009 they're doing and how 00:21:38.028 --> 00:21:39.049 they're furthering study. 00:21:39.170 --> 00:21:40.490 And I love the fact that we 00:21:40.530 --> 00:21:43.132 start with questions, not with a bias. 00:21:43.511 --> 00:21:45.212 We start with questions and it's often. 00:21:45.977 --> 00:21:47.998 we undo our bias, right? 00:21:48.057 --> 00:21:48.679 Like, oh, 00:21:48.838 --> 00:21:50.180 I didn't know that was going to happen. 00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:51.220 That's the best part about 00:21:51.259 --> 00:21:52.681 some of the research that's come out. 00:21:52.701 --> 00:21:53.701 So again, 00:21:53.801 --> 00:21:55.021 I appreciate kind of your 00:21:55.883 --> 00:21:57.943 thoughts to driving our new 00:21:57.983 --> 00:21:59.805 clinicians in a way to kind 00:21:59.845 --> 00:22:00.704 of handle some of the 00:22:00.746 --> 00:22:01.726 misinformation and 00:22:01.786 --> 00:22:03.487 definitely the vast amount 00:22:03.527 --> 00:22:04.847 of information that's out there. 00:22:04.867 --> 00:22:06.128 So that is awesome. 00:22:06.449 --> 00:22:08.410 So I'm going to change gears again. 00:22:08.549 --> 00:22:10.770 And instead of talking about clinicians, 00:22:11.191 --> 00:22:13.772 I want to talk about how can we start to 00:22:14.335 --> 00:22:16.855 connect our community and our patients. 00:22:17.036 --> 00:22:18.317 So we are talking about 00:22:18.356 --> 00:22:19.857 having students navigate this, 00:22:20.178 --> 00:22:21.739 but what about patients who 00:22:21.818 --> 00:22:23.679 are just starting to like, you know, 00:22:23.739 --> 00:22:25.160 they have no contacts. 00:22:25.460 --> 00:22:26.701 They don't have this 00:22:26.800 --> 00:22:28.041 resource that lets you dive 00:22:28.122 --> 00:22:29.781 in and navigate in the same way. 00:22:30.163 --> 00:22:31.143 So what learning lessons do 00:22:31.163 --> 00:22:32.304 you have there from using 00:22:32.364 --> 00:22:33.584 social media to connect 00:22:33.624 --> 00:22:35.265 with health professionals 00:22:35.285 --> 00:22:36.685 in the community outside of 00:22:36.726 --> 00:22:37.506 our own scope? 00:22:37.605 --> 00:22:39.307 And then what about patients? 00:22:41.051 --> 00:22:42.113 yeah I think I think 00:22:42.433 --> 00:22:43.173 assessment of health 00:22:43.233 --> 00:22:44.355 literacy is very important 00:22:44.415 --> 00:22:45.696 obviously you know you get 00:22:45.717 --> 00:22:46.897 these individuals whether 00:22:46.938 --> 00:22:47.778 it's you know different 00:22:47.798 --> 00:22:49.260 health professions or you 00:22:49.280 --> 00:22:50.142 know individuals at 00:22:50.182 --> 00:22:51.522 different um you know 00:22:51.563 --> 00:22:52.304 different levels of 00:22:52.364 --> 00:22:53.565 education as far as 00:22:53.605 --> 00:22:54.906 patients go and they're all 00:22:54.926 --> 00:22:56.248 at different levels and so 00:22:56.268 --> 00:22:56.808 you know I like 00:22:57.148 --> 00:22:58.830 I like sharing information 00:22:58.851 --> 00:22:59.872 with these individuals, 00:22:59.932 --> 00:23:01.193 but it makes it very 00:23:01.233 --> 00:23:02.736 challenging because we know 00:23:02.796 --> 00:23:03.757 that when it comes to 00:23:04.076 --> 00:23:05.778 concepts like pain neuroscience education, 00:23:05.818 --> 00:23:06.420 some of these things, 00:23:06.961 --> 00:23:08.362 it needs to be catered for 00:23:08.382 --> 00:23:09.624 the individual in front of you. 00:23:09.723 --> 00:23:10.924 And so that's one of the big 00:23:10.984 --> 00:23:12.527 challenges in social media 00:23:12.626 --> 00:23:13.448 is a lot of times it's 00:23:13.468 --> 00:23:15.150 catered for the average. 00:23:15.769 --> 00:23:17.131 And I think a good example 00:23:17.171 --> 00:23:18.171 of this is how this 00:23:18.211 --> 00:23:19.372 information can be 00:23:19.432 --> 00:23:20.592 presented in a way that's 00:23:21.031 --> 00:23:24.012 really not optimal for us. 00:23:24.073 --> 00:23:25.314 I'm assuming a lot of 00:23:25.334 --> 00:23:26.534 individuals have seen how 00:23:27.295 --> 00:23:29.075 Stuart McGill did a recent 00:23:29.355 --> 00:23:30.536 Huberman podcast. 00:23:30.635 --> 00:23:32.395 And I love Stuart's work, 00:23:32.415 --> 00:23:33.196 and I think he's done some 00:23:33.217 --> 00:23:34.277 great things for our profession. 00:23:34.936 --> 00:23:35.998 But a lot of his concepts 00:23:36.077 --> 00:23:37.258 are a bit outdated from 00:23:37.278 --> 00:23:38.138 what we understand about 00:23:38.179 --> 00:23:39.558 low back pain specifically. 00:23:40.038 --> 00:23:41.700 And I think we all saw that. 00:23:42.479 --> 00:23:43.118 And we, in this, 00:23:43.219 --> 00:23:46.180 this large geared at largely at patients, 00:23:46.740 --> 00:23:47.619 this, you know, 00:23:47.740 --> 00:23:50.019 large podcast type of thing he did. 00:23:50.280 --> 00:23:51.560 And it, 00:23:51.820 --> 00:23:53.800 it really highlighted some of the 00:23:53.840 --> 00:23:55.221 things you don't want to do, 00:23:55.300 --> 00:23:56.061 which you don't want to 00:23:56.102 --> 00:23:57.061 present things in a way 00:23:57.082 --> 00:23:59.082 that creates any type of nocebo based, 00:23:59.102 --> 00:24:00.882 you know, fear of movement and, you know, 00:24:00.902 --> 00:24:03.583 this idea of anatomical pathological, 00:24:03.623 --> 00:24:03.803 you know, 00:24:03.863 --> 00:24:05.502 terrible things causing these 00:24:05.542 --> 00:24:06.663 pain complaints and all of 00:24:06.683 --> 00:24:07.423 these things that are just 00:24:07.523 --> 00:24:08.983 outdated models and. 00:24:10.193 --> 00:24:11.634 On the counter side of things, 00:24:12.096 --> 00:24:13.076 Peter O'Sullivan did a 00:24:13.116 --> 00:24:14.939 recent podcast on the same exact topic, 00:24:15.479 --> 00:24:17.161 which was the polar opposite, 00:24:17.181 --> 00:24:18.162 which was really geared 00:24:18.201 --> 00:24:19.663 towards what we do understand about pain, 00:24:20.124 --> 00:24:21.085 what we do understand about 00:24:21.105 --> 00:24:21.925 how you treat it and how 00:24:21.965 --> 00:24:23.008 you manage it in these things. 00:24:23.288 --> 00:24:23.688 Again, 00:24:23.748 --> 00:24:25.750 geared a little bit towards patients 00:24:25.810 --> 00:24:27.071 as well as towards clinicians, 00:24:27.573 --> 00:24:29.615 but in a way that really highlights the 00:24:30.199 --> 00:24:31.539 the variability in it. 00:24:31.621 --> 00:24:32.461 And it's not that 00:24:32.520 --> 00:24:33.903 something's out of place or 00:24:33.942 --> 00:24:35.644 not that this muscle is weak or the, 00:24:35.664 --> 00:24:36.445 cause that's, you know, 00:24:36.465 --> 00:24:37.846 maybe for one individual patient, 00:24:37.866 --> 00:24:38.788 that might be a problem, 00:24:39.048 --> 00:24:40.869 but to paint that across every patient, 00:24:40.910 --> 00:24:42.112 it's a huge challenge. 00:24:42.152 --> 00:24:43.613 And so I think that that's 00:24:44.213 --> 00:24:46.096 from educating patient standpoint, 00:24:46.135 --> 00:24:46.936 I think that's the 00:24:46.977 --> 00:24:48.218 challenge is how do I 00:24:48.337 --> 00:24:51.000 educate these individuals individually? 00:24:51.545 --> 00:24:51.765 you know, 00:24:51.884 --> 00:24:53.385 in a way that's beneficial to 00:24:53.425 --> 00:24:55.346 them based on their specific needs. 00:24:55.426 --> 00:24:57.047 And so I, to be honest with you, 00:24:57.167 --> 00:24:58.768 I don't use social media as 00:24:58.847 --> 00:25:00.648 much for patient type of, you know, 00:25:00.769 --> 00:25:02.269 information or education 00:25:02.329 --> 00:25:03.829 for that reason is because 00:25:03.950 --> 00:25:05.371 I think it's it's from a 00:25:05.471 --> 00:25:07.051 person centered care standpoint. 00:25:07.152 --> 00:25:08.471 How do you make it individualized? 00:25:08.491 --> 00:25:08.653 Right. 00:25:09.272 --> 00:25:10.593 You know, and so I don't do that as much, 00:25:10.613 --> 00:25:11.594 but I think it's important. 00:25:12.114 --> 00:25:13.255 I just I haven't gotten 00:25:13.315 --> 00:25:14.934 involved in much into in 00:25:14.974 --> 00:25:16.195 that realm of things. 00:25:16.843 --> 00:25:18.262 Well, and it's super tricky. 00:25:18.343 --> 00:25:19.483 And I can tell you that even 00:25:19.544 --> 00:25:20.624 with your websites, 00:25:20.963 --> 00:25:21.763 you have to be so 00:25:21.804 --> 00:25:23.025 thoughtful about what words 00:25:23.045 --> 00:25:23.884 you're putting out there 00:25:23.904 --> 00:25:24.684 and how you're leading 00:25:24.724 --> 00:25:26.385 people and what you're linking them to. 00:25:26.705 --> 00:25:28.306 But even just keeping them up to date, 00:25:28.425 --> 00:25:29.727 it makes it really difficult. 00:25:29.747 --> 00:25:31.487 So I continue to challenge 00:25:31.527 --> 00:25:32.906 people to think about, you know, 00:25:33.027 --> 00:25:34.167 if an end in mind is 00:25:34.208 --> 00:25:35.147 patient-centered care, 00:25:35.188 --> 00:25:36.127 what resources are we 00:25:36.147 --> 00:25:37.868 providing to that end body, 00:25:38.509 --> 00:25:39.489 that end group, 00:25:39.828 --> 00:25:42.029 and really being strategic 00:25:42.069 --> 00:25:43.369 about the way we interact 00:25:43.410 --> 00:25:44.830 with them throughout these 00:25:44.871 --> 00:25:46.131 social media platforms. 00:25:46.481 --> 00:25:46.981 in thoughtful, 00:25:47.001 --> 00:25:48.482 intentional ways without 00:25:48.522 --> 00:25:51.345 trying to steer them or misguide them. 00:25:51.464 --> 00:25:52.645 It really should be what is 00:25:52.685 --> 00:25:54.307 in the best intention, 00:25:54.968 --> 00:25:55.928 which is to hopefully get 00:25:55.968 --> 00:25:57.388 them to the right care, right? 00:25:57.469 --> 00:25:58.990 And get them the best outcome. 00:25:59.049 --> 00:26:00.211 So, you know, 00:26:00.250 --> 00:26:02.011 I think people always have two sides, 00:26:02.051 --> 00:26:03.292 just like you said, Stuart McGill, 00:26:03.333 --> 00:26:04.273 and then you turn around 00:26:04.334 --> 00:26:05.775 and you think Peter O'Sullivan, 00:26:05.795 --> 00:26:07.195 but those are two different 00:26:07.316 --> 00:26:08.636 philosophical approaches. 00:26:09.587 --> 00:26:10.429 Maybe one's right. 00:26:10.489 --> 00:26:11.650 Maybe one's wrong. 00:26:11.789 --> 00:26:12.711 Maybe both are right. 00:26:12.770 --> 00:26:13.672 Maybe both are wrong. 00:26:14.092 --> 00:26:14.893 I don't know that we know, 00:26:14.932 --> 00:26:15.973 but we certainly can at 00:26:15.993 --> 00:26:17.875 least explore philosophies 00:26:18.236 --> 00:26:19.056 and they're not out there 00:26:19.096 --> 00:26:20.277 trying to get that self gain. 00:26:20.297 --> 00:26:21.018 They are seeking 00:26:21.433 --> 00:26:22.734 and researching and doing 00:26:22.795 --> 00:26:23.454 some of this work. 00:26:23.535 --> 00:26:24.695 And you certainly can 00:26:24.736 --> 00:26:25.355 connect with those 00:26:25.375 --> 00:26:26.396 individuals to talk with 00:26:26.416 --> 00:26:27.436 them about their studies 00:26:27.457 --> 00:26:28.356 and the work they're doing. 00:26:28.417 --> 00:26:28.698 Right. 00:26:29.278 --> 00:26:31.358 So I think the other pieces, 00:26:31.479 --> 00:26:32.920 and you kind of hit this a little bit, 00:26:32.980 --> 00:26:34.019 but you know, 00:26:34.500 --> 00:26:35.500 these individuals that you 00:26:35.520 --> 00:26:36.280 were just speaking about in 00:26:36.300 --> 00:26:37.281 the Hooverman lab is 00:26:37.321 --> 00:26:39.222 definitely a healthcare professional who, 00:26:39.803 --> 00:26:41.824 you know, he has a personal brand. 00:26:42.223 --> 00:26:43.605 I mean, they have a personal brand. 00:26:43.785 --> 00:26:45.546 And so how do you, 00:26:45.766 --> 00:26:48.186 as a healthcare provider, you know, 00:26:48.326 --> 00:26:49.307 use social media. 00:26:50.685 --> 00:26:52.328 build transparency and 00:26:52.409 --> 00:26:53.509 integrity while you're 00:26:53.529 --> 00:26:54.491 still trying to promote 00:26:54.511 --> 00:26:55.292 what you're doing. 00:26:55.653 --> 00:26:57.395 I think this is a tricky space. 00:26:57.656 --> 00:26:59.500 And what advice would you 00:26:59.519 --> 00:27:00.661 give to other professionals 00:27:00.701 --> 00:27:01.663 trying to navigate it? 00:27:05.116 --> 00:27:06.857 Yeah, I think I think first and foremost, 00:27:06.897 --> 00:27:09.818 know your worth and know your value. 00:27:09.878 --> 00:27:12.160 And I think that we a lot of 00:27:12.180 --> 00:27:13.800 times we take for granted 00:27:13.861 --> 00:27:16.082 how much patients and other 00:27:16.122 --> 00:27:17.923 people listen to us. 00:27:18.002 --> 00:27:20.324 And so especially what is 00:27:20.463 --> 00:27:22.204 what is the term doctor mean to people? 00:27:22.825 --> 00:27:22.984 Right. 00:27:23.005 --> 00:27:24.165 And my wife likes to remind 00:27:24.185 --> 00:27:25.385 me frequently after I have 00:27:25.425 --> 00:27:26.247 two doctorate degrees, 00:27:26.267 --> 00:27:26.866 like to remind me 00:27:26.906 --> 00:27:28.508 frequently that Dr. Seuss 00:27:28.548 --> 00:27:29.288 is also a doctor. 00:27:30.803 --> 00:27:32.144 you know but at the end of 00:27:32.163 --> 00:27:34.164 the day if you put if you 00:27:34.244 --> 00:27:35.765 have doctor in front of 00:27:35.785 --> 00:27:37.086 your name on a social media 00:27:37.125 --> 00:27:38.185 platform or something along 00:27:38.226 --> 00:27:40.186 those lines keep in mind 00:27:40.686 --> 00:27:41.928 patients aren't able to 00:27:41.968 --> 00:27:43.469 decide or other people may 00:27:43.509 --> 00:27:45.009 not be able to decide what 00:27:45.028 --> 00:27:46.369 your doctorate is in or 00:27:46.430 --> 00:27:49.030 what area you study so know 00:27:49.070 --> 00:27:50.411 your area of expertise 00:27:51.271 --> 00:27:52.412 speak to your area of 00:27:52.471 --> 00:27:54.173 expertise and defend it 00:27:54.232 --> 00:27:55.913 when you know the material 00:27:56.971 --> 00:27:59.234 but at the same time be 00:27:59.295 --> 00:28:00.477 careful stepping out of 00:28:00.517 --> 00:28:02.219 that okay because you 00:28:02.278 --> 00:28:03.401 reading you know I'm not 00:28:03.421 --> 00:28:04.241 going to read do a 00:28:04.301 --> 00:28:06.384 literature review on on the 00:28:06.424 --> 00:28:08.407 treatment of diabetes and 00:28:08.468 --> 00:28:10.089 go try to you know educate 00:28:10.130 --> 00:28:11.392 people on diabetes using 00:28:11.451 --> 00:28:13.375 doctor in front of my name tomorrow 00:28:14.365 --> 00:28:15.786 That's not my area of specialty. 00:28:16.186 --> 00:28:17.827 I haven't done research there. 00:28:17.968 --> 00:28:19.269 I haven't done anything there. 00:28:19.288 --> 00:28:21.109 And so that doctor title 00:28:21.150 --> 00:28:22.029 still carries you. 00:28:22.049 --> 00:28:23.270 And I think a lot of times 00:28:23.310 --> 00:28:24.231 people on social media, 00:28:24.251 --> 00:28:25.031 you'll see it where they'll 00:28:25.112 --> 00:28:27.213 use doctor and all of these initials. 00:28:27.673 --> 00:28:28.654 And keep in mind that 00:28:28.974 --> 00:28:30.276 patients or other providers 00:28:30.435 --> 00:28:31.316 might not know the 00:28:31.355 --> 00:28:32.537 relevance of those things. 00:28:33.077 --> 00:28:34.979 They might see the whole ABC 00:28:35.038 --> 00:28:36.119 soup there and think that 00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:38.060 this person is an expert in everything. 00:28:38.080 --> 00:28:39.862 This is a person that should 00:28:39.902 --> 00:28:41.722 be giving me advice on what 00:28:41.803 --> 00:28:42.804 vitamins to take. 00:28:43.288 --> 00:28:44.308 when that individual might 00:28:44.348 --> 00:28:45.549 have no training in that 00:28:45.630 --> 00:28:46.830 area of expertise and so I 00:28:46.871 --> 00:28:48.311 think knowing your value 00:28:48.332 --> 00:28:49.752 both the positives what you 00:28:49.813 --> 00:28:51.615 do have to offer and the 00:28:51.654 --> 00:28:52.835 negatives the areas that 00:28:52.875 --> 00:28:54.257 you probably shouldn't be 00:28:54.376 --> 00:28:56.198 speaking to right and I 00:28:56.218 --> 00:28:57.019 think that that's that's 00:28:57.118 --> 00:28:58.059 really an important thing 00:28:58.099 --> 00:28:59.641 to keep in mind the other 00:28:59.661 --> 00:29:00.961 thing is following ethical 00:29:01.001 --> 00:29:02.823 standards again we don't 00:29:02.863 --> 00:29:04.104 have conflicts of interest 00:29:04.144 --> 00:29:05.345 in social media I don't 00:29:05.404 --> 00:29:06.586 have to sit there and tell 00:29:06.625 --> 00:29:08.386 people oh by the way you 00:29:08.407 --> 00:29:09.367 know I'm making money off 00:29:09.448 --> 00:29:11.450 of this but simply put 00:29:12.135 --> 00:29:14.116 you should do what's right, right? 00:29:14.257 --> 00:29:15.938 You should do what's right 00:29:16.259 --> 00:29:17.419 because you know that it's 00:29:17.499 --> 00:29:18.680 not right to try to trick 00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:20.760 people and give them bad information, 00:29:20.820 --> 00:29:21.801 right? 00:29:21.882 --> 00:29:23.742 If we know that manual 00:29:23.782 --> 00:29:26.464 therapy is shown to lead to 00:29:26.924 --> 00:29:29.787 improved downstream outcomes, 00:29:30.267 --> 00:29:31.647 decreased healthcare costs, 00:29:31.788 --> 00:29:34.308 decreased opiate utilization downstream, 00:29:34.469 --> 00:29:35.509 all of these things, 00:29:36.391 --> 00:29:38.551 and you're sitting here saying, you know, 00:29:38.632 --> 00:29:39.952 you shouldn't use manual therapy. 00:29:40.012 --> 00:29:41.053 No one should be trained in it. 00:29:41.073 --> 00:29:41.874 You shouldn't educate... 00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:43.980 You providing that 00:29:44.020 --> 00:29:45.643 information are going to 00:29:45.722 --> 00:29:47.305 negatively impact patients 00:29:47.325 --> 00:29:48.746 down the road because of that, 00:29:49.086 --> 00:29:50.086 because of that trickle 00:29:50.106 --> 00:29:51.087 down effect of what you're 00:29:51.127 --> 00:29:52.369 telling some of these providers. 00:29:52.410 --> 00:29:54.171 So you have to do the right 00:29:54.230 --> 00:29:55.372 thing and think about is 00:29:55.393 --> 00:29:56.413 this information that I'm 00:29:56.453 --> 00:29:58.095 providing really the best we know, 00:29:58.536 --> 00:29:59.517 really what's best for 00:29:59.557 --> 00:30:01.438 these providers to hear and 00:30:01.498 --> 00:30:03.760 for their patients to, you know, 00:30:03.820 --> 00:30:06.042 downstream to be influenced by. 00:30:06.824 --> 00:30:08.045 Or are they what's best for 00:30:08.144 --> 00:30:09.905 me and my own financial 00:30:09.965 --> 00:30:11.247 loving and perhaps patting 00:30:11.267 --> 00:30:13.167 myself on my back for my own biases? 00:30:13.788 --> 00:30:14.608 And so, you know, 00:30:14.729 --> 00:30:16.009 I think really appreciating 00:30:16.049 --> 00:30:16.931 that is important. 00:30:17.691 --> 00:30:18.932 Providing your sources, 00:30:19.551 --> 00:30:21.012 making sure you give people 00:30:21.032 --> 00:30:23.755 the ability to look things up themselves. 00:30:23.835 --> 00:30:25.576 Again, give them that opportunity. 00:30:25.615 --> 00:30:26.957 Don't try to tell people how 00:30:26.977 --> 00:30:29.278 they should feel about things, okay? 00:30:29.298 --> 00:30:30.640 Give them the opportunity to say, 00:30:30.680 --> 00:30:32.221 this is an article, interesting review. 00:30:32.520 --> 00:30:33.560 Here's my thoughts on it. 00:30:33.621 --> 00:30:34.402 Let me know what you think. 00:30:34.675 --> 00:30:34.836 Right. 00:30:34.935 --> 00:30:36.457 Open that door for them to 00:30:36.517 --> 00:30:38.217 dive deeper into some of this stuff. 00:30:39.277 --> 00:30:40.458 Don't be afraid to admit 00:30:40.478 --> 00:30:41.077 when you're wrong. 00:30:41.817 --> 00:30:42.938 One of the things I love 00:30:42.978 --> 00:30:44.798 telling people is challenge your biases. 00:30:45.138 --> 00:30:46.038 We all have them. 00:30:46.078 --> 00:30:47.220 You cannot make them go away. 00:30:47.640 --> 00:30:48.400 Be aware of them, 00:30:48.839 --> 00:30:49.859 become friends with them 00:30:50.500 --> 00:30:51.441 and challenge them. 00:30:51.941 --> 00:30:52.161 Okay. 00:30:52.201 --> 00:30:53.201 If you find a paper that 00:30:53.260 --> 00:30:54.922 doesn't agree with what you think, 00:30:56.261 --> 00:30:57.021 look at it and say, 00:30:57.142 --> 00:30:58.583 what did they do here? 00:30:58.663 --> 00:31:00.663 And is it them that did 00:31:00.722 --> 00:31:01.644 something wrong in this 00:31:01.683 --> 00:31:02.784 study that I don't agree with? 00:31:03.455 --> 00:31:04.936 Or do I need to change the 00:31:04.957 --> 00:31:05.758 way I'm looking at this? 00:31:05.798 --> 00:31:06.638 Because again, 00:31:06.999 --> 00:31:08.580 there's different opinions on things. 00:31:08.601 --> 00:31:09.902 Just like you were saying, Megan, 00:31:09.922 --> 00:31:12.203 there's this idea of it's 00:31:12.243 --> 00:31:13.585 just different philosophies 00:31:13.625 --> 00:31:14.986 looking at things oftentimes. 00:31:15.026 --> 00:31:16.106 And so oftentimes it's not a 00:31:16.146 --> 00:31:16.728 right or wrong. 00:31:17.188 --> 00:31:18.249 It's just different sides of 00:31:18.269 --> 00:31:19.329 the coin looking at things 00:31:19.369 --> 00:31:20.089 in a different way. 00:31:21.151 --> 00:31:22.050 And then opening your mind 00:31:22.090 --> 00:31:24.332 to things outside your comfort zone. 00:31:24.352 --> 00:31:25.511 Being able to dive into some 00:31:25.551 --> 00:31:26.271 of this stuff and just 00:31:26.311 --> 00:31:28.132 learn a little bit every day. 00:31:29.211 --> 00:31:30.432 I always tell our residents this. 00:31:31.133 --> 00:31:31.613 Every day, 00:31:31.972 --> 00:31:32.732 we're either getting a little 00:31:32.752 --> 00:31:35.133 bit smarter or a little bit stupid. 00:31:36.693 --> 00:31:38.973 You have to learn some new stuff. 00:31:39.013 --> 00:31:40.314 You have to open your mind to say, 00:31:40.673 --> 00:31:41.694 I don't just want to keep 00:31:41.994 --> 00:31:43.535 reinforcing what I already know. 00:31:43.714 --> 00:31:45.154 I actually want to learn some new stuff. 00:31:45.194 --> 00:31:46.234 I want to dive into some new 00:31:46.255 --> 00:31:48.016 stuff and investigate some 00:31:48.076 --> 00:31:49.596 other people's thoughts on these things. 00:31:50.781 --> 00:31:50.922 Well, 00:31:50.961 --> 00:31:53.022 and I think what you allude to in 00:31:53.143 --> 00:31:55.344 that is that research is hard. 00:31:55.825 --> 00:31:57.345 I think research is so hard. 00:31:57.585 --> 00:32:00.926 And when you see different philosophies, 00:32:01.247 --> 00:32:03.008 people may not be bantering 00:32:03.048 --> 00:32:04.449 about somebody else's approach, 00:32:04.509 --> 00:32:06.210 but rather maybe they had a 00:32:06.269 --> 00:32:07.170 different subset of 00:32:07.210 --> 00:32:08.611 patients in that experience. 00:32:08.951 --> 00:32:10.251 Maybe they had more females, 00:32:10.311 --> 00:32:11.432 maybe they had more males, 00:32:11.491 --> 00:32:13.053 maybe had a different ethnicity, 00:32:13.353 --> 00:32:14.894 maybe they have a higher chronicity. 00:32:15.173 --> 00:32:15.334 I mean, 00:32:15.354 --> 00:32:17.295 there's so many variables that go 00:32:17.375 --> 00:32:18.635 into research 00:32:19.096 --> 00:32:20.336 that I feel like that's why 00:32:20.396 --> 00:32:21.616 it gives it more merit 00:32:21.656 --> 00:32:22.518 rather than it being a 00:32:22.637 --> 00:32:24.637 myopic singular approach. 00:32:25.479 --> 00:32:27.179 It allows you to think a 00:32:27.220 --> 00:32:28.359 little bit more open and 00:32:28.420 --> 00:32:29.901 broad and I love that. 00:32:30.240 --> 00:32:31.921 I've also seen in Twitter which you can, 00:32:32.422 --> 00:32:33.001 sorry, X, 00:32:33.501 --> 00:32:35.103 is that you see somebody will 00:32:35.143 --> 00:32:36.242 say that and then they'll 00:32:36.262 --> 00:32:37.743 do a thread with another 00:32:37.804 --> 00:32:38.864 link or resource and 00:32:38.923 --> 00:32:40.065 another link or resource. 00:32:40.545 --> 00:32:41.884 I love seeing that because 00:32:42.085 --> 00:32:45.286 it keeps you as a follower or reader. 00:32:45.986 --> 00:32:46.885 I'm hearing what they're 00:32:46.905 --> 00:32:47.665 saying and then they 00:32:47.746 --> 00:32:48.967 provide me another link or 00:32:49.007 --> 00:32:52.247 resource to go to because X is limited, 00:32:52.487 --> 00:32:53.467 Y characters. 00:32:53.507 --> 00:32:54.207 You can't put all your 00:32:54.227 --> 00:32:55.728 information in there. 00:32:55.768 --> 00:32:58.907 It certainly is a way of a good tactic, 00:32:58.968 --> 00:32:59.587 I would say, 00:32:59.887 --> 00:33:01.108 to try to make sure that 00:33:01.489 --> 00:33:04.429 you're being as transparent as possible. 00:33:05.670 --> 00:33:06.809 I found that to be really 00:33:06.849 --> 00:33:08.089 helpful as a user. 00:33:08.670 --> 00:33:10.352 um I I'm not as on uh 00:33:10.432 --> 00:33:12.773 predominantly on x um but 00:33:12.794 --> 00:33:13.794 you know certainly I like 00:33:13.814 --> 00:33:15.395 to follow a few people so I 00:33:15.455 --> 00:33:17.696 hear you there that's great 00:33:17.777 --> 00:33:18.738 well is there any other 00:33:18.758 --> 00:33:20.038 advice you have as we wrap 00:33:20.078 --> 00:33:21.780 up the show if not I'll go 00:33:21.820 --> 00:33:23.261 ahead and kick us into some closing 00:33:24.508 --> 00:33:25.667 No, I mean, again, 00:33:25.728 --> 00:33:27.689 I just thank you for having me on. 00:33:27.729 --> 00:33:29.409 We are actually doing a talk. 00:33:30.490 --> 00:33:31.589 You, me, 00:33:31.650 --> 00:33:33.250 and Chad Cook are doing a talk on 00:33:33.290 --> 00:33:35.111 this topic at AM. 00:33:35.131 --> 00:33:36.090 So anyone at the conference, 00:33:36.111 --> 00:33:36.811 please come see us. 00:33:36.852 --> 00:33:37.892 We did a really interesting 00:33:37.932 --> 00:33:39.711 narrative review on social 00:33:39.751 --> 00:33:41.432 media content related to 00:33:41.472 --> 00:33:42.573 musculoskeletal rehab. 00:33:42.653 --> 00:33:44.314 And so it's currently in peer review. 00:33:44.334 --> 00:33:45.314 We're really excited for the 00:33:45.354 --> 00:33:45.953 results of it. 00:33:46.273 --> 00:33:46.974 We're looking forward to 00:33:46.994 --> 00:33:47.835 discussing some of those 00:33:47.855 --> 00:33:48.535 with you guys at AM. 00:33:49.368 --> 00:33:51.932 Otherwise, thank you for having me. 00:33:51.951 --> 00:33:53.354 Oh, Damian, always a pleasure. 00:33:53.453 --> 00:33:54.255 And sincerely, 00:33:54.836 --> 00:33:56.877 we can't wait to have you at conference. 00:33:56.998 --> 00:33:57.960 I can't wait to see all of 00:33:57.980 --> 00:33:59.801 our listeners who are able to go to. 00:33:59.862 --> 00:34:00.603 And, you know, 00:34:00.643 --> 00:34:01.844 this pretty much wraps us up 00:34:01.903 --> 00:34:03.105 in our insightful 00:34:03.145 --> 00:34:04.528 conversation on social media. 00:34:04.788 --> 00:34:06.410 And I have to say thank you, Damian, 00:34:06.450 --> 00:34:08.172 for sharing your expertise with us, 00:34:08.211 --> 00:34:08.773 your wisdom. 00:34:09.338 --> 00:34:11.320 and how we navigate social media, 00:34:11.661 --> 00:34:13.503 especially as OMPT practitioners, 00:34:13.523 --> 00:34:14.643 thinking about the variety 00:34:14.704 --> 00:34:16.065 of audiences that we need to. 00:34:16.085 --> 00:34:17.507 And although we know it 00:34:17.688 --> 00:34:20.331 offers tremendous opportunity, engagement, 00:34:20.351 --> 00:34:21.672 growth, and communication, 00:34:22.514 --> 00:34:23.454 it's so important to 00:34:23.925 --> 00:34:26.106 approach it with care, transparency, 00:34:26.206 --> 00:34:27.288 and that solid ethical 00:34:27.307 --> 00:34:28.829 foundation like you were mentioning. 00:34:29.309 --> 00:34:31.451 So I hope this, for those listeners, 00:34:31.530 --> 00:34:32.552 I hope this episode has 00:34:32.572 --> 00:34:33.713 given you some food for thought, 00:34:33.972 --> 00:34:34.914 how to use social media 00:34:34.934 --> 00:34:36.835 effectively and responsibly 00:34:36.855 --> 00:34:38.016 in their professional journey, 00:34:38.056 --> 00:34:39.056 especially maybe as new, 00:34:39.498 --> 00:34:40.617 younger clinicians. 00:34:41.259 --> 00:34:42.599 Don't forget to follow AMT 00:34:42.760 --> 00:34:44.181 on our social media channels. 00:34:44.541 --> 00:34:44.961 Of course, 00:34:44.981 --> 00:34:46.943 I have to say that because we obviously, 00:34:46.963 --> 00:34:48.284 they're listening to a podcast. 00:34:48.324 --> 00:34:50.505 So we hope that you'll find 00:34:50.525 --> 00:34:52.148 that we're bringing fresh ideas, 00:34:52.168 --> 00:34:52.608 that we're going to 00:34:52.648 --> 00:34:53.688 challenge our assumptions 00:34:54.076 --> 00:34:55.918 and always try to move AONT 00:34:55.958 --> 00:34:56.599 forward in the right 00:34:56.619 --> 00:34:57.701 direction to do the right 00:34:57.740 --> 00:34:59.222 thing for our patients. 00:34:59.443 --> 00:35:01.666 So thank you, Damian, for your time. 00:35:01.846 --> 00:35:03.208 And as our audience, 00:35:03.228 --> 00:35:04.969 we'll see you later on the next Hands On, 00:35:05.010 --> 00:35:05.530 Hands Off.