1 00:00:01,201 --> 00:00:06,206 ♪ Opening theme music ♪ 2 00:00:34,067 --> 00:00:36,403 [Diane:] Hi, everybody! 3 00:00:36,403 --> 00:00:42,042 Thank you all for coming, sorry we were a bit delayed. I hope everybody's fine. 4 00:00:42,042 --> 00:00:46,045 Okay, so… Um. 5 00:00:46,045 --> 00:00:52,752 Thank you for being with us. We… this is a very… promising conversation, 6 00:00:52,752 --> 00:01:00,060 it's the first time we are doing a livestream, and we have a lot of topics to cover, so this is exciting. 7 00:01:00,060 --> 00:01:09,769 And, uh, before we start, this event is recorded and livestreamed, so, if you don't want to appear on the video, 8 00:01:09,769 --> 00:01:20,046 please deactivate your camera. Also, you're all muted right now, or at least most of the people in the room are muted. 9 00:01:20,046 --> 00:01:32,058 so, please, if you're not speaking, stay muted. Also, we have chat options. The chat conversation will go to me directly. 10 00:01:32,058 --> 00:01:46,039 and you can also ask. There will be a Q&A at the very end, so you can use that option. This event will run until 7.30pm Eastern, 11 00:01:46,039 --> 00:01:54,047 and, what else? My name is Diane Kolin. I'm your host today. 12 00:01:54,047 --> 00:02:01,921 I'm the founder and director of ArtsAbly, which is based in Toronto in Canada, but we really work with people 13 00:02:01,921 --> 00:02:08,061 in different parts of the globe, and for those who don't know. 14 00:02:08,061 --> 00:02:17,036 ArtsAbly is a company supporting the work of artists and arts professionals with disabilities in all kinds of domains. 15 00:02:17,036 --> 00:02:26,045 And one of our ongoing projects is a podcast called ArtsAbly in Conversation 16 00:02:26,045 --> 00:02:35,488 that can be found on all streaming platforms. And really, the aim is to let artists or artist professionals tell the audience 17 00:02:35,488 --> 00:02:42,929 what they do, and to talk about their journey in the arts, whether it's academically, as a performer, 18 00:02:42,929 --> 00:02:49,068 as a composer, a dancer, singer, painter, photographer, 19 00:02:49,068 --> 00:02:56,042 a theatre artist, cinema. So, a lot of domains. 20 00:02:56,042 --> 00:03:01,047 And today we celebrate our 50th episode of ArtsAbly in Conversation. 21 00:03:01,047 --> 00:03:10,056 And we are lucky today to have a panel of 13 guests who all have been individually interviewed in the past. 22 00:03:10,056 --> 00:03:16,429 And you can find their episodes on our website. Our guests today 23 00:03:16,429 --> 00:03:22,068 represent many of these domains I just talked about, and they're based in Canada, 24 00:03:22,068 --> 00:03:28,041 in the United States and in Turkey. And before presenting them to you. 25 00:03:28,041 --> 00:03:36,049 I just wanted to say a word about someone who cannot be here today, but she does a lot for ArtsAbly. 26 00:03:36,049 --> 00:03:45,625 and it's our social media manager, Alexia Vassos. We post content during the week, every day, almost every day, 27 00:03:45,625 --> 00:03:52,065 and she's the one behind these posts, and I wanted to recognize the good job that she's doing. 28 00:03:52,065 --> 00:04:01,341 Okay, so let's hear about our guests. So I will start... I will call everybody by their names, 29 00:04:01,341 --> 00:04:07,580 and I will start by Alex Bulmer, can you present yourself, please? 30 00:04:07,580 --> 00:04:09,983 [Alex:] Hi, Diane! Can you hear me? 31 00:04:09,983 --> 00:04:10,650 [Diane:] I hear you fine, yes. 32 00:04:10,650 --> 00:04:17,056 [Alex:] Yes, you can. Good. Hi, my name is Alex Bulmer. I use pronouns she, they. 33 00:04:17,056 --> 00:04:26,065 I have a kind of scruffy-ish, shortish light brown hair. 34 00:04:26,065 --> 00:04:35,008 I'm, um, a female-presenting human in their late 50s, and I am wearing kind of a multicoloured, 35 00:04:35,008 --> 00:04:44,050 kind of… cozy top, it's oversized, and there are big paintings behind me that my grandfather painted. 36 00:04:44,050 --> 00:04:44,951 [Diane:] Thank you. 37 00:04:44,951 --> 00:04:48,755 [Alex:] Oh, do you want to know what I do? Is that part of our introduction? 38 00:04:48,755 --> 00:04:49,288 [Diane:] Yes, okay. I work as an actor, playwright. 39 00:04:49,288 --> 00:04:55,061 [Alex:] Yes, okay. I work as an actor, playwright, 40 00:04:55,061 --> 00:04:58,064 screenwriter and director. 41 00:04:58,064 --> 00:05:04,037 [Diane:] Thank you. Emily? 42 00:05:04,037 --> 00:05:11,244 [Emily:] I just had to unmute there, all right? I'm Emily Schooley. I use generally she, her pronouns. 43 00:05:11,244 --> 00:05:16,049 I'm a light-skinned adult woman with long red hair and green eyes. 44 00:05:16,049 --> 00:05:21,054 I'm currently sitting on my couch in my living room, coming to you from Tkaronto, 45 00:05:21,054 --> 00:05:27,060 which is traditionally Treaty 13 territory, and also covered by the Dish with One Spoon Covenant. 46 00:05:27,060 --> 00:05:34,600 So I'm a multidimensional artist. I'm primarily actor, filmmaker, voiceover artist. 47 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:39,038 I both direct and produce my own work, producing only of necessity. 48 00:05:39,038 --> 00:05:44,744 And as well, I am more recently a psychic oracle as well, so I've started doing 49 00:05:44,744 --> 00:05:50,049 readings for people alongside my more traditional artistic work. 50 00:05:50,049 --> 00:05:53,720 [Diane:] Thank you. Very interesting, I didn't know that. 51 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:56,522 Kemal. 52 00:05:56,556 --> 00:06:04,997 [Kemal:] Hello everybody, my name is Kemal Gorey, he, him. I have brown, gray hairs and glasses. 53 00:06:04,997 --> 00:06:11,604 I am a media composer, I identify as blind. And I am also serving 54 00:06:11,604 --> 00:06:19,979 as an accessibility advocate at RAMPD, I'm currently serving as the Secretary, I'm so glad to be here. 55 00:06:19,979 --> 00:06:26,486 [Diane:] Thank you, and for those who don't know, RAMPD is Recording Artists and Music Professionals with Disabilities. 56 00:06:26,486 --> 00:06:30,289 We have a few people from RAMPD today. 57 00:06:30,289 --> 00:06:32,992 Malicious Sheep. 58 00:06:32,992 --> 00:06:39,932 [Malicious Sheep:] Hello, everyone. I am Malicious Sheep. I'm a multidisciplinary artist, photographer, vocalist, poet, voice actor, 59 00:06:39,932 --> 00:06:46,973 community organizer, all the hats. They then pronouns. 60 00:06:46,973 --> 00:06:53,980 I am to you from rural Canada, specifically in Anishinaabeg territory. 61 00:06:53,980 --> 00:07:02,989 And super pleased to be here. Multiply disabled, immunocompromised, neurodivergent, 62 00:07:02,989 --> 00:07:11,731 chronically ill and disabled. The whole combo. But yes, glad to be here. 63 00:07:11,731 --> 00:07:15,334 [Diane:] Thank you. Laura. 64 00:07:15,334 --> 00:07:24,444 [Laura:] Hello! I am Laura Brody, and I am a middle-aged woman with brown hair, shoulder length, with turquoise headphones, 65 00:07:24,444 --> 00:07:32,351 and a slightly blurry background of my living room slash work area. And among many other things, I'm an artist and curator 66 00:07:32,351 --> 00:07:39,759 and the founder of Opulent Mobility, which is an exhibit that reimagines disability as opulent and powerful. 67 00:07:39,759 --> 00:07:45,932 I'm in Monrovia, California, also known as Tongva Land, and I'm really pleased to see you all. 68 00:07:45,932 --> 00:07:49,001 Thank you. Rory? 69 00:07:49,001 --> 00:07:56,175 [Rory:] Hi, I'm Rory McLeod. I use he, him pronouns. I'm a light-skinned man with 70 00:07:56,175 --> 00:08:02,248 short brown hair and glasses, and you can't tell on Zoom, but I'm also very tall. 71 00:08:02,248 --> 00:08:08,354 Um, I am the executive and artistic director of Xenia Concerts, 72 00:08:08,354 --> 00:08:12,625 which is an organization that works with the neurodiversity and disability communities 73 00:08:12,625 --> 00:08:16,495 to redesign concert experiences and make them more accessible 74 00:08:16,495 --> 00:08:20,566 both for the artists and for audiences. 75 00:08:20,566 --> 00:08:21,434 [Diane:] Thanks. 76 00:08:21,434 --> 00:08:24,504 Stefan. 77 00:08:24,504 --> 00:08:28,975 [Stefan:] Thanks, Diane. My name is Stefan Sunandan Honisch, 78 00:08:28,975 --> 00:08:34,780 and I'm joining you today from the traditional ancestral and unceded territory of the Musqueam Nation, 79 00:08:34,780 --> 00:08:40,987 where the University of British Columbia, the Point Grey campus is located. 80 00:08:40,987 --> 00:08:47,193 I'm a sectional lecturer in the theatre studies department 81 00:08:47,193 --> 00:08:52,198 at UBC's Point Grey campus, and I'm a scholar in residence at St. John's College, 82 00:08:52,198 --> 00:08:58,871 which is also on UBC's Point Grey campus. 83 00:08:58,871 --> 00:09:01,908 [Diane:] Thank you, Andrew? 84 00:09:01,908 --> 00:09:09,649 [Andrew:] Hello, I'm Andrew D'Antonio and I'm joining you from Round Rock, Texas, which is the unceded territory of the Tonkawa, 85 00:09:09,649 --> 00:09:15,922 and I am a music historian. I teach at the University of Texas at Austin. 86 00:09:15,922 --> 00:09:21,093 I have an ADHD diagnosis and have an interest in disability studies and access for quite some time, and my… 87 00:09:21,093 --> 00:09:27,300 I'm helping my daughter here, so I'm going to go off-screen briefly, but thank you all for being here. I'm delighted to be here. 88 00:09:27,300 --> 00:09:29,969 [Diane:] Thank you. 89 00:09:29,969 --> 00:09:32,672 Elizabeth. 90 00:09:32,672 --> 00:09:37,810 [Elizabeth:] Hi, I'm so excited to be here with so many incredible people. 91 00:09:37,810 --> 00:09:42,148 A lot of you I've been dying to meet, so this was a great opportunity. Thanks for inviting me. 92 00:09:42,148 --> 00:09:49,655 I'm Elizabeth McLain. I am Assistant Professor of Musicology and Director of Disability Studies at Virginia Tech. 93 00:09:49,655 --> 00:09:53,859 I'm also a member of RAMPD, and I'm the founder of Open the Gates Gaming, 94 00:09:53,859 --> 00:09:58,664 which empowers everyone to tell their stories through tabletop role-playing games, 95 00:09:58,664 --> 00:10:02,301 to try to make that more accessible and inclusive. 96 00:10:02,301 --> 00:10:07,139 I'm autistic. I also have mobility disabilities. 97 00:10:07,139 --> 00:10:12,945 Right now, it's a lot of collators, but also canes, crutches, whatever's gonna work on that particular day. 98 00:10:12,945 --> 00:10:19,151 And I have chronic health disabilities. Most of my work focuses on disability culture and the arts. 99 00:10:19,151 --> 00:10:24,323 And trying to move towards a more ethical model of scholarship, where we're truly 100 00:10:24,323 --> 00:10:29,161 partnering with artists and communities and helping them tell their stories. 101 00:10:29,161 --> 00:10:34,133 instead of… kind of making their work our own. 102 00:10:34,133 --> 00:10:38,137 I cannot remember if I… did I give a visual description at the beginning? 103 00:10:38,137 --> 00:10:41,707 I get very distracted, so I have notes that I'm working off of, 104 00:10:41,707 --> 00:10:49,148 but I'm a white woman in my 30s with longish blonde hair and glasses. 105 00:10:49,148 --> 00:10:50,850 Um, yeah. 106 00:10:50,850 --> 00:10:55,154 [Diane:] Thanks. Robin. 107 00:10:55,154 --> 00:11:02,995 [Robin:] Hi, my name is Robin Hahn, my pronouns are she, they. I am a white femme person with light brown hair 108 00:11:02,995 --> 00:11:09,735 and a big ol' pink headband coming to you from my voice studio 109 00:11:09,735 --> 00:11:13,305 on the unceded occupied lands of the Musqueam, 110 00:11:13,305 --> 00:11:17,810 also known as Vancouver. 111 00:11:17,810 --> 00:11:30,990 I am an opera singer, a stage director, a vocal coach, an actor, and a content creator in the Um, making content on YouTube and… 112 00:11:30,990 --> 00:11:41,233 about the intersections between opera and disability, and I co-founded Canada's first 100% openly disability-led and run opera company 113 00:11:41,233 --> 00:11:46,605 in 2012, ooh, 2011? Ooh, that's a date I should know. 114 00:11:46,605 --> 00:11:53,446 Um, but yeah, that's me. It is so lovely to be here and to speak with all of you wonderful, wonderful humans. 115 00:11:53,446 --> 00:11:57,817 [Diane:] Thanks. Deshaymond. 116 00:11:57,817 --> 00:12:05,057 [Deshaymond:] Hello, everybody. I am Deshaymond. I answer to pronouns, he, him, his. 117 00:12:05,057 --> 00:12:17,069 I am a very handsome Black gentleman with curly, tight curly hair, and light brown skin, 118 00:12:17,069 --> 00:12:28,147 and I am an R&B music artist, singer-songwriter, composer, producer, and CEO and founder of Deshaymond Media. Um, it's a platform, 119 00:12:28,147 --> 00:12:36,122 not only will I run my music business, but I also provide visibility to people with disabilities and 120 00:12:36,122 --> 00:12:40,392 all of the intersections. So, I'm so happy to be here. 121 00:12:40,392 --> 00:12:45,064 [Diane:] Thank you. Heather? 122 00:12:45,064 --> 00:12:49,635 [Heather:] Hi, my name is Heather White Luckow. My stage name is Heather Feather. 123 00:12:49,635 --> 00:12:58,644 I have a PhD in music theory, and I'm on my second career, which is working as a children's musician. 124 00:12:58,644 --> 00:13:04,283 I am a middle-aged white woman with brown hair, shoulder length. 125 00:13:04,283 --> 00:13:12,658 pale skin, green eyes. And I'm currently sitting in a room here on the island of Montreal, where I keep a lot of books. 126 00:13:12,658 --> 00:13:18,464 And somebody mentioned a painting by a grandparent, and I actually have paintings by my grandma up behind me. 127 00:13:18,464 --> 00:13:24,170 Oh, and I have multiple sclerosis. This is my disability. And I'm a speaker for RAMPD as well. 128 00:13:24,170 --> 00:13:30,109 [Diane:] Yes, great community. Well, thank you all for being here. Malicious Sheep, did you want to 129 00:13:30,109 --> 00:13:36,715 provide a visual description of your… uh, your visual right now? 130 00:13:36,715 --> 00:13:41,887 [Malicious Sheep:] Yeah, sure, I also get distracted, so I missed that part. 131 00:13:41,887 --> 00:13:43,189 [Diane:] No worries. 132 00:13:43,189 --> 00:13:48,194 [Malicious Sheep:] I am mostly known… well, fully known as an artist 133 00:13:48,194 --> 00:13:56,468 with my disembodied voice, as well as my profile picture, which is a photograph of a bristly floral protrusion 134 00:13:56,468 --> 00:14:07,179 from a Red-rooted pigweed, which is a wildflower, and nestled in there is a Phidippus audax juvenile 135 00:14:07,179 --> 00:14:11,517 who is perched, just tucked in the flower of that plant. 136 00:14:11,517 --> 00:14:15,054 And the photograph is mine, yours truly. 137 00:14:15,054 --> 00:14:22,194 [Diane:] Yes. Well, thank you so much for this introduction, and thank you for everybody joining us 138 00:14:22,194 --> 00:14:30,102 also, a few people joined us from our audience members, so welcome. 139 00:14:30,102 --> 00:14:40,446 Um, I will start immediately with the first question, which is for some of our music performers here, 140 00:14:40,446 --> 00:14:50,456 Deshaymond and Heather. Can you share an experience of performing in a venue that were inaccessible to you? 141 00:14:50,456 --> 00:14:59,031 And also, how did you cope with this situation? And were you able to speak with the venue, give feedback after the performance? 142 00:14:59,031 --> 00:15:02,434 And I will start by Deshaymond. 143 00:15:02,434 --> 00:15:08,140 [Deshaymond:] Thanks, Diane. I also forgot to mention that I am an ambassador on deck for RAMPD, 144 00:15:08,140 --> 00:15:13,445 Recording Artists and Music Professionals with Disabilities, and I'm an advocate, a disability rights advocate. 145 00:15:13,445 --> 00:15:22,821 Um, you know, my first festival that I did, you know how there's, like, multiple stages, and they're all, you know, 146 00:15:22,821 --> 00:15:30,429 made for the event. Well, there were no ramps, there were no, like… it was, like, this huge step up. 147 00:15:30,429 --> 00:15:35,067 And I literally had to have two people from my team kind of hoist me up 148 00:15:35,067 --> 00:15:43,976 in order for me to get up on the stage, and then head to the front. So I definitely did have a conversation with 149 00:15:43,976 --> 00:15:47,112 the people that were managing the stage afterwards, and, 150 00:15:47,112 --> 00:15:51,450 you know, I asked them, like, if they knew that I was a disabled artist when they booked me, and 151 00:15:51,450 --> 00:15:59,358 you know, what a… if they even thought about accommodations, and just gave them a little bit of advice on for future, 152 00:15:59,358 --> 00:16:03,896 how to, um you know, accommodate blind people. 153 00:16:03,896 --> 00:16:09,435 Oh, and I identify as blind. I don't think I said that either. 154 00:16:09,435 --> 00:16:15,274 [Diane:] Okay, and so… so what… what were their feedback? What were their response? 155 00:16:15,274 --> 00:16:21,413 Did they contact you back and say, we need advice, or did they just say, okay, we will do better next time, or what? 156 00:16:21,413 --> 00:16:27,453 [Deshaymond:] No, well, in that moment, they told me that they'll do better next time, and they said that, you know, 157 00:16:27,453 --> 00:16:33,993 normally, they have this and that and this and that, but, you know, they… what I will say is that they were… 158 00:16:33,993 --> 00:16:37,229 they tried to work around not having accommodations. 159 00:16:37,229 --> 00:16:43,936 They really were… definitely nice people, and they treated me human, and made sure 160 00:16:43,936 --> 00:16:50,042 that I had everything that I needed outside of the accommodations that I needed. 161 00:16:50,042 --> 00:16:51,977 [Diane:] How was the concert? 162 00:16:51,977 --> 00:16:58,450 [Deshaymond:] Oh, I killed! I definitely killed! 163 00:16:58,450 --> 00:17:01,887 [Diane:] Okay, thanks. Heather, what about you? 164 00:17:01,887 --> 00:17:09,428 [Heather:] I've had a number of experience with stairs in dark rooms and flashing lights, and none of which I can handle. 165 00:17:09,428 --> 00:17:16,435 So, uh, stairs are tricky. Sometimes, well. Generally, my balance is poorer than the average person. 166 00:17:16,435 --> 00:17:21,440 And often, I find myself, when I'm tired, it gets even worse. 167 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:26,445 So, part of what helps us balance, when we have balance issues, because we have, like, 13 centers in our brain, 168 00:17:26,445 --> 00:17:32,451 and some of mine don't work anymore, is our vision. And when it's dark, I also can't see. 169 00:17:32,451 --> 00:17:35,521 I'm wearing shoes, my feet can't feel, so I don't have that, 170 00:17:35,521 --> 00:17:39,458 you know, I'm losing that sensation as well in my feet with neuropathy. 171 00:17:39,458 --> 00:17:47,599 Peripheral neuropathy. So, yeah, it's the access to stages. So I find that a lot of them have kind of these rickety stairs. 172 00:17:47,599 --> 00:17:54,773 Often it's dark, especially, like, awards ceremonies, which tend to be in dark rooms. 173 00:17:54,773 --> 00:18:00,446 And then you have black stairs with a makeshift railing that isn't the most stable. 174 00:18:00,446 --> 00:18:07,119 And then the stair is a big step up. So, it's always like, will I use a cane? Won't I use a cane? 175 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:12,357 Is this gonna hold me if I fall? So this, this is the question. 176 00:18:12,357 --> 00:18:17,729 I've only once had an experience with lights. I have, like, pupil issues, where 177 00:18:17,729 --> 00:18:23,435 one kind of dilates and the other one is doing the opposite. It's called Marcus Gunn pupil, 178 00:18:23,435 --> 00:18:29,942 related to MS as well. And so I find flashing lights, strobe lights, it's all just completely… 179 00:18:29,942 --> 00:18:37,649 discombobulating, so whenever I've mentioned bright lights or that, always taken care of. Never a problem. 180 00:18:37,649 --> 00:18:45,858 Really good experience. And… In general, whenever I ask about stairs, I've only had one experience 181 00:18:45,858 --> 00:18:49,428 where they were really unable to accommodate, and it was very much last minute. 182 00:18:49,428 --> 00:18:55,434 It would have preferred not to have to use a very long set of outdoor stairs with no rail. 183 00:18:55,434 --> 00:19:02,441 That was nerve-wracking, and I was also by myself, I didn't know anybody, I didn't feel comfortable asking somebody for help 184 00:19:02,441 --> 00:19:11,717 to get up those stairs, so I was just super cautious. I did actually talk with somebody recently about it, 185 00:19:11,717 --> 00:19:16,822 where I did a performance, and accessed a few different parts of their venues. 186 00:19:16,822 --> 00:19:26,431 And it was a really productive conversation. And… it was, uh, yes, we realized. 187 00:19:26,431 --> 00:19:33,038 And at the last minute, it was very difficult to try to do, but next time we're definitely gonna do better. 188 00:19:33,038 --> 00:19:40,445 And we recognize that this is an issue. And we're putting a team together to address this in our organization in the future. 189 00:19:40,445 --> 00:19:45,350 So, it was a very positive response, and… I couldn't ask for better. 190 00:19:45,350 --> 00:19:52,357 [Diane:] Oh, well, that's great, because sometimes we don't even know who to speak to, or we don't… 191 00:19:52,357 --> 00:20:00,432 They will say, okay, I will report that to my direction, and then you never hear from… Uh, from… from anybody. 192 00:20:00,432 --> 00:20:07,739 [Heather:] Well, this was a group and a festival that actually gave participants a chance to debrief with the head of the organization. 193 00:20:07,739 --> 00:20:13,745 And everybody had that opportunity. And it was just a quick, like, if you wanted to talk about your experience. 194 00:20:13,745 --> 00:20:21,787 And it wasn't specifically about accessibility, it was actually about, you know, the festival itself, but I brought up the accessibility, and… 195 00:20:21,787 --> 00:20:28,160 Yeah, it was super productive. And a very positive response, honestly, as somebody who identifies 196 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:35,300 as having accessibility needs, I honestly couldn't ask for better. It was… it was great. 197 00:20:35,300 --> 00:20:39,805 [Deshaymond:] That's awesome, Heather, and you know, even when, you know, that railing is rickety, 198 00:20:39,805 --> 00:20:44,443 I mean, at that first festival that I did, it was literally just a crate. 199 00:20:44,443 --> 00:20:51,416 And then a huge step up to the stage. So, it was… it was crazy, but they… they really… they got me up there. 200 00:20:51,416 --> 00:21:01,860 but I found that… My problems are with accessibility, getting to the stage. They're lesser now, because I'm advocating beforehand. 201 00:21:01,860 --> 00:21:09,434 I always call the venue and let them know what I need. And they're usually pretty good about it. 202 00:21:09,434 --> 00:21:16,441 [Heather:] I did have the opportunity as well to signal beforehand. There was just one thing that once somebody couldn't fix recently 203 00:21:16,441 --> 00:21:20,445 because they just said, well, we… don't… like, the elevator's broken. 204 00:21:20,445 --> 00:21:21,446 [Deshaymond:] Right. 205 00:21:21,446 --> 00:21:28,453 [Heather:] You know? We can't do that. But, like, we… there's some things we could do, but yeah. 206 00:21:28,453 --> 00:21:30,389 [Deshaymond:] That's awesome. 207 00:21:30,389 --> 00:21:39,031 [Diane:] Okay, thank you. I have a related question to that, but for the direction side, or the curators, or the artistic directors, so, 208 00:21:39,031 --> 00:21:43,568 I have a question for Laura, Rory, and Tracy. 209 00:21:43,568 --> 00:21:53,445 When it comes to, like, organizing events, whatever the event is, what do you have to consider? What challenges did you face 210 00:21:53,445 --> 00:22:00,452 in some venues that might not be entirely fit for your organization or your event? 211 00:22:00,452 --> 00:22:09,461 And also do you work with venues to improve their accessibility, or do you tend to go back to those you know are accessible? 212 00:22:09,461 --> 00:22:12,431 And I will start with Laura. 213 00:22:12,431 --> 00:22:20,205 [Laura:] Hi, and thank you. Um, I didn't mention it before, but a lot of my chronic issues are the more invisible kind. 214 00:22:20,205 --> 00:22:24,643 They're, like, chronic PTSD and Hashimoto's and other such things. 215 00:22:24,643 --> 00:22:31,450 But because my artists all have access needs, and because I am actively working with people 216 00:22:31,450 --> 00:22:35,454 that I want to be able to come in, who, for example, 217 00:22:35,454 --> 00:22:41,093 might use wheelchairs or walkers, I need to find places that are accessible in a variety of ways. 218 00:22:41,093 --> 00:22:45,831 And I find that inevitably, I'm doing a certain amount of educational work 219 00:22:45,831 --> 00:22:52,437 with every venue that I work with. That is just part of the process. That's okay. 220 00:22:52,437 --> 00:23:00,445 Sometimes that's turned out really poorly. I've really actually run into situations where 221 00:23:00,445 --> 00:23:05,617 people didn't understand that, for example, having a bathroom in a separate building 222 00:23:05,617 --> 00:23:10,689 far away from the site might be an issue. 223 00:23:10,689 --> 00:23:21,166 You know, that… Really basic things. There are a lot of supposedly set into law 224 00:23:21,166 --> 00:23:25,437 from the Americans with Disabilities Act about staircases and access 225 00:23:25,437 --> 00:23:32,444 that they have many properties that are so-called grandfathered in, that they are not actually accessible, and 226 00:23:32,444 --> 00:23:36,615 finding ways to work around that can be a real challenge. 227 00:23:36,615 --> 00:23:41,520 Some people are very open to it, and you can always find ways to make it more accessible, 228 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:46,258 including videotaping or photographing the work, 229 00:23:46,258 --> 00:23:50,729 and showing it on the side of the building. There are a lot of ways we can get around that. 230 00:23:50,729 --> 00:23:56,134 But some people are open to it, and some people get really cranky. 231 00:23:56,134 --> 00:23:57,803 [Diane:] Yeah, I had a… 232 00:23:57,803 --> 00:24:04,242 I imagine that when you invite people to exhibit their piece of art, 233 00:24:04,242 --> 00:24:09,448 you also need to attach them on the, you know, on the walls and things like that. 234 00:24:09,448 --> 00:24:15,220 And I always… when I go to these exhibitions and I see that everything is high, or 235 00:24:15,220 --> 00:24:21,960 the lights are not correctly set, and you have them in… if you're lower, you have them in the face, things like that. 236 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,130 So, do you have that kind of conversations with the venue? 237 00:24:25,130 --> 00:24:30,435 [Laura:] All the time. sometimes I'm the one hanging, so that's less of an issue, 238 00:24:30,435 --> 00:24:38,643 but otherwise, that's… it is a real conversation to have each time, of trying to set things a little bit lower, so that, 239 00:24:38,643 --> 00:24:42,447 a wheelchair user isn't necessarily going to have to strain their neck 240 00:24:42,447 --> 00:24:48,453 looking up at it. That everyone has to do a certain amount of adjusting, 241 00:24:48,453 --> 00:24:53,658 which is actually really, I think, beneficial, and it really starts a great conversation. 242 00:24:53,658 --> 00:25:00,565 I will usually advocate for American Sign Language on associated talks and other things. 243 00:25:00,565 --> 00:25:09,441 I will, wherever possible, have Braille signage and detailed art descriptions for all the pieces. 244 00:25:09,441 --> 00:25:15,180 Sometimes it's a real challenge juggling all of that, and sometimes funding is a real problem. 245 00:25:15,180 --> 00:25:19,317 That's just often a problem. But there are ways. 246 00:25:19,317 --> 00:25:23,521 So, it depends on the venue, it depends on what budget is available, 247 00:25:23,521 --> 00:25:33,198 but trying to find ways to make things more accessible to as many people as possible is always an educational experience. 248 00:25:33,198 --> 00:25:36,668 Both for me and the venue, and usually for the audience members, 249 00:25:36,668 --> 00:25:43,108 since I work with both disabled and non-disabled community members. 250 00:25:43,108 --> 00:25:47,812 [Diane:] Rory, what about you? I know you are doing a lot of... 251 00:25:47,812 --> 00:25:54,452 You're dealing with a lot of venues, because you change, uh, you do some collaboration with venues, 252 00:25:54,452 --> 00:26:02,460 with some organizations that have their own, so what… how do you deal with all that? 253 00:26:02,460 --> 00:26:07,999 [Rory:] Yeah, thanks. You know, I was reflecting on this and thinking about the fact that 254 00:26:07,999 --> 00:26:13,038 the accessibility of a venue doesn't just come down 255 00:26:13,038 --> 00:26:18,576 to the physical accessibility of the space, it also comes down to the people running the venue, and 256 00:26:18,576 --> 00:26:20,445 so we've heard some really good stories from 257 00:26:20,445 --> 00:26:25,984 Heather and Deshaymond about good, positive experiences they've had when they gave feedback. 258 00:26:25,984 --> 00:26:31,022 And we found that to be the same thing, that sometimes what seems to be a barrier can actually be 259 00:26:31,022 --> 00:26:35,460 overcome if you have the right team and they're offering the right kinds of support. 260 00:26:35,460 --> 00:26:40,165 Um, but we do, you know, so… just to put things in context, 261 00:26:40,165 --> 00:26:48,306 we present adaptive concerts at Xenia Concerts, and so we have partnerships with presenting organizations. 262 00:26:48,306 --> 00:26:53,445 One of our big partnerships is with TO Live here in Toronto, but then we also work with other theatres. 263 00:26:53,445 --> 00:26:57,749 And then we also have partnerships with other music festivals, 264 00:26:57,749 --> 00:27:03,054 so we're, in those cases, using whatever venue they have available to them, 265 00:27:03,054 --> 00:27:08,960 and then we also go and do on-site concerts at places like specialized schools, 266 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:13,598 care facilities, children's hospitals, that kind of thing. So… 267 00:27:13,598 --> 00:27:18,570 One of the good things about working with disability support and service organizations is that 268 00:27:18,570 --> 00:27:21,106 they usually have those supports in place already, 269 00:27:21,106 --> 00:27:24,442 and we can just go in and bring them a great musical experience. 270 00:27:24,442 --> 00:27:30,148 When it comes to venues, it depends a lot on when the building was built, 271 00:27:30,148 --> 00:27:33,985 what the standards were when it was built, 272 00:27:33,985 --> 00:27:39,958 and whether it's been renovated, and whether the organization has had the budget to renovate 273 00:27:39,958 --> 00:27:47,432 for physical access, but just to give an example of, you know, unexpected opportunities for problem solving. 274 00:27:47,432 --> 00:27:54,439 One of the theatres that we've worked with has, you know, pretty typical standard seating that's fixed to the floor. 275 00:27:54,439 --> 00:28:00,512 And any wheelchair or mobility device users in this call will know that 276 00:28:00,512 --> 00:28:07,552 those places often have maybe three seats that are accessible for accessible seating. 277 00:28:07,552 --> 00:28:10,889 They're often at the back of the hall, or off in the corner. 278 00:28:10,889 --> 00:28:16,127 They often don't have a seat next to them where, you know, a companion can sit. 279 00:28:16,127 --> 00:28:20,932 So that was a pretty major accessibility concern for us, with our audiences. 280 00:28:20,932 --> 00:28:27,138 But we discovered from talking to the venue that the stage was accessible. 281 00:28:27,138 --> 00:28:34,913 So we were able to set it up so that we had some seating with, you know, just 282 00:28:34,913 --> 00:28:42,921 fold-out chairs on stage, and some space for people who are wheelchair users or mobility device users on stage. 283 00:28:42,921 --> 00:28:47,225 And we just reoriented the performers a little bit, and made it possible 284 00:28:47,225 --> 00:28:51,096 for some of the attendees to be on stage with the performers, 285 00:28:51,096 --> 00:28:54,099 and some in the theatre, in the audience. 286 00:28:54,099 --> 00:28:59,370 So it's just one example of when you think you might have a venue that's 287 00:28:59,370 --> 00:29:02,507 not gonna work based on what you see when you walk in, 288 00:29:02,507 --> 00:29:06,444 but because of the collaboration with the team, it actually ends up working out 289 00:29:06,444 --> 00:29:09,214 pretty well. But then we've also had 290 00:29:09,214 --> 00:29:13,451 kind of the opposite experience, where we've walked into a space and thought, oh, this is perfect. 291 00:29:13,451 --> 00:29:17,222 The floor is completely flat, there's natural lighting, 292 00:29:17,222 --> 00:29:23,061 you know, we don't have to worry about stairs or physical access. 293 00:29:23,061 --> 00:29:28,032 And then it turns out that… they don't use that room often enough 294 00:29:28,032 --> 00:29:32,070 to have all the technical capabilities to offer closed captioning, 295 00:29:32,070 --> 00:29:37,442 and screens, and all of the other access supports that we like to offer our audiences. 296 00:29:37,442 --> 00:29:40,712 So, it's always a constant learning process, but we found that, 297 00:29:40,712 --> 00:29:46,451 usually the venues that we work with you know, they're choosing to partner with Xenia Concerts for a reason. 298 00:29:46,451 --> 00:29:50,622 And that's because they want to do their best to make 299 00:29:50,622 --> 00:29:53,124 an event as accessible as possible. So, 300 00:29:53,124 --> 00:29:55,827 generally, we've had positive experiences, and 301 00:29:55,827 --> 00:30:02,000 if we walk into a space that's clearly unusable, we just won't do our concert there. 302 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:07,205 [Diane:] Yeah, for sure. And also, it's a learning curve for everybody. 303 00:30:07,205 --> 00:30:10,408 [Rory:] Right, yeah, for us, for the production team, for our artists, 304 00:30:10,408 --> 00:30:13,444 for our audiences, too, sometimes. 305 00:30:13,444 --> 00:30:24,455 [Diane:] Well, I have this question for people who are acting, whether it's theatre performance or opera, 306 00:30:24,455 --> 00:30:32,430 when you're working on a theatre. And this is a question for Alex, Emily, and Robin. 307 00:30:32,430 --> 00:30:38,436 When you're working in this theatre company settings, or a film production settings, 308 00:30:38,436 --> 00:30:43,041 then how do you ensure your access needs are met, and how do you 309 00:30:43,041 --> 00:30:48,446 and how do you work with also the rest of the team, we were talking about the learning curve for everybody. 310 00:30:48,446 --> 00:30:53,318 So do you have examples of productions that worked for you, 311 00:30:53,318 --> 00:30:59,457 that are accessible, that you worked with the team to make it as accessible as possible? 312 00:30:59,457 --> 00:31:01,793 And I would like to ask Alex first. 313 00:31:01,793 --> 00:31:04,896 [Alex:] Yeah, I mean, um, well, I think… 314 00:31:04,896 --> 00:31:11,669 it might be helpful to share just some of the strategies that I always have ready to go, 315 00:31:11,669 --> 00:31:18,443 whether it's theatre or film, and I sort of go through this kind of checklist, and it's like, transparency about 316 00:31:18,443 --> 00:31:23,681 my access needs, and making it really clear that the word needs, I use that for a reason. 317 00:31:23,681 --> 00:31:33,458 It's not wants and hopes, it's needs. Real, real transparency about what I need in order to do my work. 318 00:31:33,458 --> 00:31:42,934 Included in that is I always ask, if it's theatre, I always ask to have access to the costume designers and the set designer, 319 00:31:42,934 --> 00:31:51,442 just to make sure that I understand, you know, what they're thinking, and make sure that it's in line with my access needs. 320 00:31:51,442 --> 00:31:57,448 I place really clear boundaries on the fact that I am employed as an artist. 321 00:31:57,448 --> 00:32:05,456 And if I… if I'm being pushed to start to serve as, like, an access consultant 322 00:32:05,456 --> 00:32:12,330 or a trainer or educator for the team, then I make it really clear that I expect to be paid for that work, 323 00:32:12,330 --> 00:32:19,437 or to be prepared that I may not have the capacity, and they'll have to 324 00:32:19,437 --> 00:32:22,440 address those issues with someone else. 325 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:26,444 But I just… I really… I try and keep that boundary very clear. 326 00:32:26,444 --> 00:32:32,050 I put it all in a rider so that it's part of my contract, everything I need, so it's all signed off. 327 00:32:32,050 --> 00:32:38,456 We all… I always set up a review process throughout, a process, 328 00:32:38,456 --> 00:32:42,493 throughout a rehearsal and performance process so that… 329 00:32:42,493 --> 00:32:46,798 because you can't always predict what you're gonna need, because you don't exactly know what's gonna come along. So we have a review. 330 00:32:46,798 --> 00:32:48,433 So we have a review. 331 00:32:48,433 --> 00:32:54,739 And I like to give feedback right immediately, whether it's positive or 332 00:32:54,739 --> 00:32:59,210 where improvement is needed, because I think that's how we all learn, so… 333 00:32:59,210 --> 00:33:04,782 That's the process, and I actually just got off an amazing experience with a film production, 334 00:33:04,782 --> 00:33:10,455 shooting "Being Heumann," the Judy Heumann story. It's a feature film that is being shot in Toronto. 335 00:33:10,455 --> 00:33:14,425 It was just the best. They had an access coordinator, they had an access team, 336 00:33:14,425 --> 00:33:21,132 they had access documents that everybody got with their sides and their call. 337 00:33:21,132 --> 00:33:28,439 They had a language document. So, accessible language, as well as a sustainability document. 338 00:33:28,439 --> 00:33:33,111 And if somebody had to leave my side, 339 00:33:33,111 --> 00:33:37,281 there was always somebody else right there. And they used my name, they were all… 340 00:33:37,281 --> 00:33:42,887 They understood how to describe what was going on around me. It was an excellent, excellent experience. 341 00:33:42,887 --> 00:33:46,357 That's what you get when you get a really good access coordinator, you know, it's part… 342 00:33:46,357 --> 00:33:52,029 it's embedded in the project, it's not just an add-on. 343 00:33:52,029 --> 00:33:57,435 [Diane:] Well, this is fantastic. We are all waiting for this movie to come. 344 00:33:57,435 --> 00:33:58,436 [Alex:] It's gonna be good! 345 00:33:58,436 --> 00:34:01,906 [Diane:] Yeah. Emily, what about you? 346 00:34:01,906 --> 00:34:07,345 [Emily:] Sure, so I'm gonna start by preface this... Or, sorry, prefacing this by saying that 347 00:34:07,345 --> 00:34:12,450 for a long time, I was not aware that I was allowed to have needs. 348 00:34:12,450 --> 00:34:17,655 I think that might be relatable, especially to women, or especially to other people that are… 349 00:34:17,655 --> 00:34:23,461 Especially underserved, but it's… for me, I'm… I just realized, too, I don't think I shared this when I introduced myself. 350 00:34:23,461 --> 00:34:30,068 But I am primarily invisibly disabled. So, I present as an abled person. 351 00:34:30,068 --> 00:34:34,839 Among some of the other things I deal with are chronic pain, you know, food issues, 352 00:34:34,839 --> 00:34:38,943 complex PTSD, as well as neurodivergence. 353 00:34:38,943 --> 00:34:44,115 So, you know, for me, I also, I deal with a lot of anxiety, just kind of based on 354 00:34:44,115 --> 00:34:46,918 a number of things, but… 355 00:34:46,918 --> 00:34:53,458 Yeah, I think the only project I've ever worked on where I was specifically asked for access needs was 356 00:34:53,458 --> 00:34:57,929 when I did, um, my guest spot on "The Squeaky Wheel," which I think, as anybody 357 00:34:57,929 --> 00:35:03,434 may know, it is a disability-led production, so of course they had an access coordinator. 358 00:35:03,434 --> 00:35:07,371 But, you know, something else, and this is kind of… 359 00:35:07,371 --> 00:35:11,976 tangentially related to access that I want to mention, two things, actually, is that 360 00:35:11,976 --> 00:35:19,183 even with "The Squeaky Wheel," just in many other productions I've been on, for myself, just because I am 361 00:35:19,183 --> 00:35:23,454 a mid-sized actor, like, I'm probably about a size 12, give or take, 362 00:35:23,454 --> 00:35:28,059 I've had to start bringing my own wardrobe to a number of sets, because even… 363 00:35:28,059 --> 00:35:32,763 You know, if there's no wardrobe fitting beforehand... 364 00:35:32,763 --> 00:35:37,368 Like, I've had more than once where, you know, I was told, oh, there'll be wardrobe for you on set. 365 00:35:37,368 --> 00:35:39,971 If they didn't even just take my measurements just as 366 00:35:39,971 --> 00:35:46,444 someone living in mid-sized body, I've often found that they're still kind of a very implicit fatphobia 367 00:35:46,444 --> 00:35:51,182 that pervades in the industry, where wardrobe would still not fit me. 368 00:35:51,182 --> 00:35:57,455 And just it, you know, it becomes really… honestly embarrassing for the production that they were not 369 00:35:57,455 --> 00:36:00,458 better prepared to accommodate a professional. 370 00:36:00,458 --> 00:36:08,199 But, yeah, kind of beyond that, it's like, with my own journey, with even just learning more about my invisible disabilities. 371 00:36:08,199 --> 00:36:11,669 I was also very late diagnosed as neurodivergent, so 372 00:36:11,669 --> 00:36:15,806 for a long time, I just thought I was just a little bit quieter than normal theatre kids. 373 00:36:15,806 --> 00:36:23,181 But something else that I think we're still working on in terms of just getting better access in terms of the industry is even, like, 374 00:36:23,181 --> 00:36:27,018 the audition process now. So, for myself, you know, 375 00:36:27,018 --> 00:36:32,456 I live in a very tiny Toronto apartment, where every time I need to self-tape as an actor, 376 00:36:32,456 --> 00:36:35,459 and this is even just to audition to get parts, 377 00:36:35,459 --> 00:36:41,432 I'm now spending at least half an hour kind of setting up a backdrop, setting up lighting, setting up cameras, setting up audio… 378 00:36:41,432 --> 00:36:45,202 And for me, with my neurodivergence, like, it just… it adds 379 00:36:45,202 --> 00:36:48,239 a lot of extra emotional labor on that. 380 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:53,811 Where, you know, even the audition process itself, like, step one in getting work as an actor, 381 00:36:53,811 --> 00:37:00,251 is not very well accommodated for those of us who are neurodivergent or have other needs. 382 00:37:00,251 --> 00:37:05,389 Something else I want to mention, too, and this is just… has, unfortunately, has been my own 383 00:37:05,389 --> 00:37:08,259 experience with the industry is that, 384 00:37:08,259 --> 00:37:13,431 the way that specific film unions respond to reports of predators. 385 00:37:13,431 --> 00:37:17,068 So people that, you know, men that sexually harass women, things like that. 386 00:37:17,068 --> 00:37:20,638 They're still very, very poor support there, where 387 00:37:20,638 --> 00:37:26,677 if you're not a union, if you're not covered by a specific union, like DGC or ACTRA or Whatnot, 388 00:37:26,677 --> 00:37:34,118 and if you're assaulted by someone in the industry who may be a member of there, but if it did not occur on a union-led set. 389 00:37:34,118 --> 00:37:41,859 just in terms of, like, you know, gender justice, justice for survivors, the union is still also, like, 390 00:37:41,859 --> 00:37:44,895 the film industry is also very poor at 391 00:37:44,895 --> 00:37:49,634 actually giving a damn in those cases, where even if it's reported, 392 00:37:49,634 --> 00:37:54,572 they're hesitant to do very little unless that there's a liability on them. So 393 00:37:54,572 --> 00:37:58,843 this is a little bit outside of the realm of, kind of, traditional accommodations, but 394 00:37:58,843 --> 00:38:02,380 one of the reasons I personally don't audition for more projects now are... 395 00:38:02,446 --> 00:38:06,884 I see, you know, I see men out there who have sexually preyed on women, 396 00:38:06,884 --> 00:38:09,020 and they're being supported with excess. 397 00:38:09,020 --> 00:38:11,789 They're still getting certain projects where 398 00:38:11,789 --> 00:38:15,459 those of us who are survivors are not accommodated in the same way. 399 00:38:15,459 --> 00:38:19,864 And so, and that can also lead to, you know, more trauma, more invisible disability. 400 00:38:19,864 --> 00:38:22,967 So that's something where… 401 00:38:22,967 --> 00:38:26,237 You know, I've made reports about certain people, and I have not... 402 00:38:26,237 --> 00:38:29,340 Those reports have not been acted on. So, 403 00:38:29,340 --> 00:38:35,613 that's something where I would like to see increased support for survivors down the road. 404 00:38:35,613 --> 00:38:38,049 But kind of outside of that, like, 405 00:38:38,049 --> 00:38:42,820 circling back to, like, being on set or being in, you know, being in the rehearsal hall for theatre, 406 00:38:42,820 --> 00:38:47,825 one of the other kind of important accommodations that I've needed are, you know, certain food accommodations, where… 407 00:38:47,825 --> 00:38:50,461 if I have sensitivities, if I have allergies. 408 00:38:50,461 --> 00:38:54,865 I have to make, you know, certain requests. It's like, oh, I need low-carb, I need this, I need this, 409 00:38:54,865 --> 00:38:59,837 so that my body doesn't fall apart while I'm in the process of making this work. 410 00:38:59,837 --> 00:39:05,543 And I find that professionally run sets are a little bit better at that, but 411 00:39:05,543 --> 00:39:08,913 as you're kind of an actor within that indie space, sometimes, 412 00:39:08,913 --> 00:39:13,284 you're not accommodated in the ways that you need to be, so… 413 00:39:13,284 --> 00:39:17,488 They're still kind of a balance to, like, finding a way to be able to ask 414 00:39:17,488 --> 00:39:24,195 like, for me to ask for what I need… you know, even to, like, help mitigate some anxiety that I feel. 415 00:39:24,195 --> 00:39:27,798 Sometimes it's successful, sometimes it's not, but 416 00:39:27,798 --> 00:39:31,102 I think it's still very much a work in progress there. 417 00:39:31,102 --> 00:39:38,109 [Diane:] Yeah, and I guess... Robin, I will ask you the same question. 418 00:39:38,109 --> 00:39:40,311 But I guess it will be the same. 419 00:39:40,311 --> 00:39:48,452 Whether you are on stage for theatre production, opera, or film, you will find these kind of similar issues. So, 420 00:39:48,452 --> 00:39:53,858 Robin, can you also give us your side of it? 421 00:39:53,858 --> 00:39:59,797 [Robin:] For sure, yeah, I mean, uh, to start, as you might imagine, opera is not exactly 422 00:39:59,797 --> 00:40:05,636 a super forward-thinking art form in, 423 00:40:05,636 --> 00:40:10,141 in the grand scheme of things, it's a little bit… it's a wee bit traditional. 424 00:40:10,141 --> 00:40:15,446 It slightly has to be dragged kicking and screaming into the new millennium. 425 00:40:15,446 --> 00:40:21,452 Still. So there's a lot of work to be done, and, like, 426 00:40:21,452 --> 00:40:26,791 I'm in a very privileged place in opera, because I live in and work around 427 00:40:26,791 --> 00:40:32,429 a space where this work has been being done for the last, like, decade. 428 00:40:32,429 --> 00:40:40,438 So, for example, I'm able to go into an audition for an opera using my, like, 429 00:40:40,438 --> 00:40:49,447 concert canes. For reference, I am holding up a sparkly ombre, pink to Diamante cane. 430 00:40:49,447 --> 00:40:54,919 So they're not, you know, subtle in any capacity, and I auditioned with them, 431 00:40:54,919 --> 00:40:59,456 where a lot of opera singers might hide their disabilities if they could. 432 00:40:59,456 --> 00:41:03,060 Which is really, really common in the operatic space. 433 00:41:03,060 --> 00:41:09,467 And I go into those auditions, and I will talk about my needs right away, 434 00:41:09,467 --> 00:41:14,705 and if they are not willing to play ball, then that's their loss and not mine. 435 00:41:14,705 --> 00:41:19,243 And again, I am very lucky to be able to create 436 00:41:19,243 --> 00:41:25,883 an artistic career that is multifaceted, and I have the opportunity to do things like direct operas. 437 00:41:25,883 --> 00:41:29,687 Where I can create accessible spaces and set that precedent 438 00:41:29,687 --> 00:41:33,724 that not only is more inclusive of other disabled artists 439 00:41:33,724 --> 00:41:38,662 around me, but also, like, I directly benefit from that precedent if I am 440 00:41:38,662 --> 00:41:43,534 directing an opera, and creating a space within the operatic world where that's expected, 441 00:41:43,534 --> 00:41:49,440 the next audition I walk into may be more affected by the space that I have just, that I've created. 442 00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:55,913 For example, we've… I've created, you know, masking policies in operatic spaces, 443 00:41:55,913 --> 00:42:02,319 which, again, you might imagine the operatic world would be pretty reticent to do any masking, 444 00:42:02,319 --> 00:42:06,457 you know, given that we expectorate loudly 445 00:42:06,457 --> 00:42:09,994 upon each other for money. 446 00:42:09,994 --> 00:42:15,132 And many people experience that it could be limiting for singing. 447 00:42:15,132 --> 00:42:19,803 Which is true, but we can… but it turns out that masking policies are still, 448 00:42:19,803 --> 00:42:23,007 you know, of course, beneficial in any space that they can be used. 449 00:42:23,007 --> 00:42:26,410 And make that space more accessible for immunocompromised folks. 450 00:42:26,410 --> 00:42:30,447 And, you know, if you just set the precedent of coming into a show 451 00:42:30,447 --> 00:42:35,552 with, as a director, for example, with, hey, you know, here's my… 452 00:42:35,552 --> 00:42:38,022 here's the masking policy I used in the last show. 453 00:42:38,022 --> 00:42:44,428 Then this new company can go, Oh, that was actually not that hard! You know? 454 00:42:44,428 --> 00:42:47,665 And is more likely to use it, as well. 455 00:42:47,665 --> 00:42:54,939 So it, like, it… it happens bit by bit over time in the operatic world, particularly 456 00:42:54,939 --> 00:42:59,443 when shown that access can be easy. 457 00:42:59,443 --> 00:43:05,649 That it's not that hard. You can do little tiny things, cheap, even free. 458 00:43:05,649 --> 00:43:10,721 And they make their spaces so much more accessible. 459 00:43:10,721 --> 00:43:15,125 I've also, like, within the, sort of 460 00:43:15,125 --> 00:43:19,830 film acting space, I've been 461 00:43:19,830 --> 00:43:25,002 partnering with my agency. I work with Kello Inclusive, which is a 462 00:43:25,002 --> 00:43:29,206 disabled talent agency across Canada, 463 00:43:29,206 --> 00:43:35,446 and we've created with 464 00:43:35,446 --> 00:43:41,151 the agency examples of access riders that are 465 00:43:41,151 --> 00:43:46,457 video format, that are easier often for film actors to create. 466 00:43:46,457 --> 00:43:52,229 Because video access riders are more commonly used in the UK, 467 00:43:52,229 --> 00:43:54,965 certainly, than they are in North America right now, and if we can 468 00:43:54,965 --> 00:44:00,437 set a little bit of a precedent that this is something that, in the film industry, people might expect, 469 00:44:00,437 --> 00:44:07,444 we'd love to see that! So yeah, that's been a really wonderful partnership to create, and of course, 470 00:44:07,444 --> 00:44:13,017 to have, because now I, you know, when I book a role, 471 00:44:13,017 --> 00:44:19,089 It's real easy. And it frames it to, again, as easy. 472 00:44:19,089 --> 00:44:27,531 Because it turns out, making spaces just that much more accessible is… not hard. 473 00:44:27,531 --> 00:44:32,903 [Diane:] It's just a matter of, you know, finding things to do before that. 474 00:44:32,903 --> 00:44:35,672 And working together so that it's done. 475 00:44:35,672 --> 00:44:38,642 And sometimes, as you say, it can be free, it can be… 476 00:44:38,642 --> 00:44:43,747 You know, masks, there are masks for singers, why not try, right? There are things to do. 477 00:44:43,747 --> 00:44:45,449 Yeah, thank you. 478 00:44:45,449 --> 00:44:55,125 I have a question for the people who work in university, so professors or lecturers. 479 00:44:55,125 --> 00:45:00,164 And this would be for Stefan, Andrew, and Elizabeth. 480 00:45:00,164 --> 00:45:06,437 How do you… how is accessibility seen from this academic point of view? 481 00:45:06,437 --> 00:45:10,240 And when you think of that academic point of view, 482 00:45:10,240 --> 00:45:14,445 what needs to be considered? For example, when a conference is organized. 483 00:45:14,445 --> 00:45:19,583 Or, either as an organizer or as a speaker. 484 00:45:19,583 --> 00:45:25,456 And also, as a classroom, right? When you have a classroom in a… where you're teaching. 485 00:45:25,456 --> 00:45:32,996 What are these good practices of accessibility in academia? And I want to start with Stefan. 486 00:45:32,996 --> 00:45:37,968 [Stefan:] Thanks very much, Diane. From my perspective, 487 00:45:37,968 --> 00:45:44,308 I think the… some of the insights that Jay Dolmage offers in his 2017 book, 488 00:45:44,308 --> 00:45:53,951 "Academic Ableism: Disability and Higher Education." Some of those insights remain deeply relevant. 489 00:45:53,951 --> 00:46:03,861 In particular, what he has to say about neoliberalism, and the ways in which neoliberalism 490 00:46:03,861 --> 00:46:07,998 turns everything, including access, into a commodity. 491 00:46:07,998 --> 00:46:30,287 And, related to that, there are two further problems. The first… 492 00:46:30,287 --> 00:46:35,626 Both of which are connected to the commodification of access, if I can put it like that. 493 00:46:35,626 --> 00:46:43,567 So the first has to do with the resulting appeals to budgetary constraints 494 00:46:43,567 --> 00:46:51,008 and appeals to limited resources. In some cases, 495 00:46:51,008 --> 00:46:57,247 those justifications for the lack of access might be 496 00:46:57,247 --> 00:47:02,920 in some sense, true, or plausible. 497 00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:14,598 But that such justifications, that access is missing or inadequate because of budgetary constraints, 498 00:47:14,598 --> 00:47:21,004 that doesn't deal with the fundamental question of why those 499 00:47:21,004 --> 00:47:28,812 budgetary limits exist as a way of signaling the relative unimportance of 500 00:47:28,812 --> 00:47:34,785 disability access. I think, 501 00:47:34,785 --> 00:47:42,693 to some extent, this is grounded in my perspective, in my 502 00:47:42,693 --> 00:47:46,730 individual perspective, but I think it ultimately goes beyond that. 503 00:47:46,730 --> 00:47:51,735 When we're asking the question about what access is like within a university setting, 504 00:47:51,735 --> 00:47:57,541 I think that we… that it's also important to think about 505 00:47:57,541 --> 00:48:04,448 the cost of living crisis more generally, both for students, 506 00:48:04,448 --> 00:48:08,385 for students, staff, and faculty, 507 00:48:08,385 --> 00:48:14,191 within the university, which of course tracks the cost of living outside the university. 508 00:48:14,191 --> 00:48:20,063 I don't think that the two worlds are separate. 509 00:48:20,063 --> 00:48:27,204 And, more specifically, in terms of accessibility, 510 00:48:27,204 --> 00:48:37,681 what are the constraints that contingent faculty, for example, or graduate students, or anybody, 511 00:48:37,681 --> 00:48:42,419 employed in precarious work, 512 00:48:42,419 --> 00:48:47,024 low-wage work, or having to work multiple jobs. 513 00:48:47,024 --> 00:48:54,998 How do their, our experiences navigating access, and trying to secure access 514 00:48:54,998 --> 00:49:01,872 with limited resources, limited time, limited energy, 515 00:49:01,872 --> 00:49:14,017 ultimately highlight the extreme economic inequality in which struggles over access take place. 516 00:49:14,017 --> 00:49:17,421 And that's the end of my thought. 517 00:49:17,421 --> 00:49:22,159 [Diane:] Yeah, that's very interesting, because when you're… 518 00:49:22,159 --> 00:49:26,463 it's such a complex environment, sometimes academia. 519 00:49:26,463 --> 00:49:33,637 And so, if you think of… all these… and also it depends, so you're in lecturer, 520 00:49:33,637 --> 00:49:36,673 and then Elizabeth and Andrew have other positions. 521 00:49:36,673 --> 00:49:42,746 I think you… we all, uh… have so many things to integrate to make sure that 522 00:49:42,746 --> 00:49:48,018 these students and ourselves are safe and work in a good environment. 523 00:49:48,018 --> 00:49:51,855 So I want to ask the same question to Andrew. 524 00:49:51,855 --> 00:49:56,727 [Andrew:] Yeah, so I really appreciate Stefan's perspective, because, 525 00:49:56,727 --> 00:50:03,834 I don't think I fully described myself earlier, so I am a middle-aged white man wearing glasses, gray hair. 526 00:50:03,834 --> 00:50:06,169 Today I'm wearing a white polo shirt. 527 00:50:06,169 --> 00:50:15,012 And so my position is much more stable. I am a full professor at a university, in the School of Music at a U.S. University. 528 00:50:15,012 --> 00:50:21,018 What I would say about access, now from a teaching and student perspective. 529 00:50:21,018 --> 00:50:26,623 is that… I'm sure in Canada the situation is somewhat different, because the laws are somewhat different. 530 00:50:26,623 --> 00:50:30,994 But the United States, with the American Disabilities Act, there is nominally the idea that 531 00:50:30,994 --> 00:50:38,802 reasonable accommodations should be offered to anybody in a particular situation. 532 00:50:38,802 --> 00:50:43,673 And so those who are employed, you all know that it is the employer who defines reasonable. 533 00:50:43,673 --> 00:50:47,544 And in an academic environment, it is ultimately the instructor 534 00:50:47,544 --> 00:50:51,681 who has that opportunity to do so, and can say, well, 535 00:50:51,681 --> 00:50:55,152 in order to succeed in my class, you need to be able to do X, Y, and Z. 536 00:50:55,152 --> 00:51:00,490 If your body-mind is not capable of doing that, then tough, right? You don't belong in my class. 537 00:51:00,490 --> 00:51:05,996 Most people aren't quite that brutal about it, but, in the end, music programs, 538 00:51:05,996 --> 00:51:11,701 performance programs in general, by and large, are dependent on hyperability. 539 00:51:11,701 --> 00:51:16,940 In fact, on the… on individuals damaging themselves in the course of 540 00:51:16,940 --> 00:51:21,011 working so hard that they burn out and harm themselves. 541 00:51:21,011 --> 00:51:26,316 I hope none of the musicians on this panel have experience this personally, 542 00:51:26,316 --> 00:51:29,519 but I know many musicians who have, regardless of their identity. 543 00:51:29,519 --> 00:51:34,291 And so, the question of access to musical training 544 00:51:34,291 --> 00:51:42,332 is one that is really difficult for many of us to manage. So, I'm a historian, I teach classes that are about music and culture. It is… 545 00:51:42,332 --> 00:51:48,004 I've been interested in the Universal Design for Learning for a while, and similar kinds of access matters, and I'm 546 00:51:48,004 --> 00:51:51,875 committed to being radical in the access that I provide to students, 547 00:51:51,875 --> 00:51:55,312 and I don't want to go into it, but that's something that I think about a lot, and 548 00:51:55,312 --> 00:51:59,716 I'm able, I think, to bring along many of my fellow academic colleagues 549 00:51:59,716 --> 00:52:05,355 in that way of thinking. But for the performance colleagues, the idea that somebody who's studying an instrument 550 00:52:05,355 --> 00:52:10,994 could be understood if studying it properly, if the technique is non-standard, 551 00:52:10,994 --> 00:52:16,666 if their body needs a particular version of an instrument that's modified, 552 00:52:16,666 --> 00:52:23,840 if they're blind, and therefore they need a different way of accessing certain kinds of training. 553 00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:26,143 You know, we have very few disabled students 554 00:52:26,143 --> 00:52:32,048 and, you know, the argument is always, well, we don't need to spend all that money, so back to Stefan's point. 555 00:52:32,048 --> 00:52:34,251 We don't need to spend all the money for access because we don't have any students. 556 00:52:34,251 --> 00:52:36,753 Well, guess why you don't have all the students? Because 557 00:52:36,753 --> 00:52:42,192 the word gets around that it is not accessible to study in that place. So, 558 00:52:42,192 --> 00:52:50,000 connecting, then, this idea that I think Stefan puts very well about the precarity of many people in the system, 559 00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:53,737 even for those of us who are privileged, blessed, 560 00:52:53,737 --> 00:52:59,609 whatever adjective you want to use to have, you know, to be able to do 561 00:52:59,609 --> 00:53:05,348 good work, and we hope work for greater access. The premises of access in academia, 562 00:53:05,348 --> 00:53:09,920 where you need to be excellent according to certain criteria that are non… 563 00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:16,459 You know, non-negotiable and also arbitrary, created by, you know, white, non-disabled men, right? 564 00:53:16,459 --> 00:53:20,330 I mean, as we've… as people legitimately discussed. So, 565 00:53:20,330 --> 00:53:24,801 this is something that I find really very important as well, is 566 00:53:24,801 --> 00:53:27,871 how we think of access for younger people into the discipline. 567 00:53:27,871 --> 00:53:32,876 And I'm really delighted that RAMPD now is there as something to point to, to say, okay, 568 00:53:32,876 --> 00:53:37,013 we're going to do a… I'm going to do my best to help you get through this program, which doesn't give you access. 569 00:53:37,013 --> 00:53:41,618 And there are mentors who have managed to make it despite the fact 570 00:53:41,618 --> 00:53:44,988 that training and opportunities were limited, 571 00:53:44,988 --> 00:53:49,392 and now there are people who can model what it means to be a successful disabled musician. 572 00:53:49,392 --> 00:53:52,963 So, I guess I'll leave that there. 573 00:53:52,963 --> 00:53:55,999 [Diane:] Elizabeth. 574 00:53:55,999 --> 00:54:00,837 [Elizabeth:] Thank you so much. I… I look up to both Stefan and Andrew a great deal. 575 00:54:00,837 --> 00:54:05,942 So it's absolutely wonderful to be able to follow both of you answering this question, because 576 00:54:05,942 --> 00:54:10,814 you've laid the groundwork really beautifully. 577 00:54:10,814 --> 00:54:16,419 I say groundwork, but that's really a very deep analysis with also, like, practical tips. 578 00:54:16,419 --> 00:54:21,391 And kind of going back to what… I want to also echo what Stefan said, like Andrew did, I mean. 579 00:54:21,391 --> 00:54:25,762 At the end of the day, budgets are expressions of priorities. 580 00:54:25,762 --> 00:54:32,035 If you don't have enough money for access, and you're refusing to get creative about how you pursue access, 581 00:54:32,035 --> 00:54:35,038 you do not value us as human beings. 582 00:54:35,038 --> 00:54:39,409 That's it. And I know you can be nice, and you can smile, and you can wish me happy birthday, 583 00:54:39,409 --> 00:54:42,979 and you can remember my cat's name, and all these lovely things. 584 00:54:42,979 --> 00:54:48,918 But that doesn't take away from the fact that if you are refusing to provide basic access, 585 00:54:48,918 --> 00:54:55,892 if you're refusing to prioritize that, you are dehumanizing me and my community. 586 00:54:55,892 --> 00:55:00,630 For better or worse, I tend to take the dehumanizing my community one a bit harder than me personally, but… 587 00:55:00,630 --> 00:55:03,933 Hey, musicians were trained to have thick skins, aren't we? 588 00:55:03,933 --> 00:55:08,805 For better or worse. 589 00:55:08,805 --> 00:55:13,109 Budgets, when I say they're expressions of priority, 590 00:55:13,109 --> 00:55:17,380 this concept of priority and values is something that 591 00:55:17,380 --> 00:55:20,450 I think is going to apply within academia and without. 592 00:55:20,450 --> 00:55:24,154 But when you're talking about access, 593 00:55:24,154 --> 00:55:31,127 academia, classical music, a lot of these spaces I've inhabited are terribly… conservative institutions, 594 00:55:31,127 --> 00:55:36,733 in the sense of they've been around for a long time, they do not like change, they like tradition. 595 00:55:36,733 --> 00:55:41,137 The idea that universities and academia are these ultra-progressive spaces 596 00:55:41,137 --> 00:55:46,209 is very bizarre propaganda that came out of the Vietnam protests in the United States. 597 00:55:46,209 --> 00:55:50,814 I just want to be… clear about this, they are very conservative, old institutions 598 00:55:50,814 --> 00:55:52,682 who like doing things the way that they have done. 599 00:55:52,682 --> 00:55:56,152 So when we ask for access, we're asking them to change. 600 00:55:56,152 --> 00:56:01,291 We're asking them to abandon a lot of the eugenics-based principles 601 00:56:01,291 --> 00:56:04,994 that Jay Dolmage points out in "Academic Ableism" undergird 602 00:56:04,994 --> 00:56:10,133 the ridiculous number of steps that it takes to physically get into the university. 603 00:56:10,133 --> 00:56:16,940 They also undergird a lot of the conversations around which bodies should and shouldn't be acting. 604 00:56:16,940 --> 00:56:20,710 Which voices should and shouldn't be heard on stage, 605 00:56:20,710 --> 00:56:27,117 which techniques should and should not be allowed on an instrument, or whatever your discipline is. 606 00:56:27,117 --> 00:56:32,722 So, fundamentally, when you're hitting up against an access issue, you need to stop and evaluate. 607 00:56:32,722 --> 00:56:37,127 What are my actual values? What are my actual priorities in this experience? 608 00:56:37,127 --> 00:56:43,767 Where can I be creative? How can I work with other people to highlight those? 609 00:56:43,767 --> 00:56:47,470 My team, we named our group Open the Gates Gaming because we felt like all of us 610 00:56:47,470 --> 00:56:51,908 had been able to sneak into these highly gatekept areas of academia, 611 00:56:51,908 --> 00:56:55,078 tabletop role-playing games, and now that we're in there, 612 00:56:55,078 --> 00:56:59,849 we want to kick open the gates from the, you know, from the inside. We're kicking them out in this case. 613 00:56:59,849 --> 00:57:05,822 To try to let more people in, and I'm so deeply honored to be part of this project that you've been building, Diane, 614 00:57:05,822 --> 00:57:13,129 to get so many of these folks who have very, very similar values to it. And I think, at the end of the day, 615 00:57:13,129 --> 00:57:20,703 for us, for those of us who are in this access work, and those of us who are impacted by the lack of accessibility, 616 00:57:20,703 --> 00:57:26,142 the way that they hold us back is by making us afraid, 617 00:57:26,142 --> 00:57:31,147 and making us feel alone, and making us feel like we don't belong. 618 00:57:31,147 --> 00:57:35,852 They do that by not paying us enough to survive. They do that by 619 00:57:35,852 --> 00:57:42,392 working us until we're about ready to collapse from exhaustion just trying to advocate for our own support needs. 620 00:57:42,392 --> 00:57:47,897 If I hear one more time that students need to be self-advocates for their legally given rights, 621 00:57:47,897 --> 00:57:52,335 I'm gonna lose it on someone, but that's okay, it wouldn't be the first time. 622 00:57:52,335 --> 00:57:58,908 But they do this also through hiring practices. Um. 623 00:57:58,908 --> 00:58:05,748 I don't want to put anyone on the spot, but some of the people that I most deeply admire in my field, in musicology, 624 00:58:05,748 --> 00:58:09,452 people that are working on music and disability and incredibly innovative stuff, 625 00:58:09,452 --> 00:58:13,489 who are getting book contracts and doing amazing work, 626 00:58:13,489 --> 00:58:19,462 cannot secure full-time, like, employment in academia because it is ableist. 627 00:58:19,462 --> 00:58:22,465 Because the hiring practices are ableist. 628 00:58:22,465 --> 00:58:25,768 And to pull back to something that Emily said, 629 00:58:25,768 --> 00:58:34,344 I'm so grateful for you for sharing this idea that sexual assault, sexual harassment, that this is an access issue. 630 00:58:34,344 --> 00:58:37,914 Right? Because this is also intersecting with gender, it's intersecting… 631 00:58:37,914 --> 00:58:46,623 intersecting with sexual orientation, with with race, but all of these together are the access issues that we're having to dominate. 632 00:58:46,623 --> 00:58:52,629 And as long as they keep us afraid, as long as we're too scared to challenge hiring processes or 633 00:58:52,629 --> 00:58:58,101 promotion and tenure, or audition guidelines. They make us feel like we don't belong. 634 00:58:58,101 --> 00:59:01,037 Those are the things we actually have to go after. And we also have to 635 00:59:01,037 --> 00:59:04,774 lift each other up in a system that isn't just capitalism. 636 00:59:04,774 --> 00:59:10,480 They're not paying us what we're worth. So let's remind each other every day what we're worth. 637 00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:14,918 We can build things. We have more power than we think we have. 638 00:59:14,918 --> 00:59:19,656 So, for whatever I can add to this conversation, 639 00:59:19,656 --> 00:59:24,127 I think whether it's academia, whether it's, you know, music broadly, the arts 640 00:59:24,127 --> 00:59:28,898 more broadly, we're a lot stronger together, and every time we choose not to be afraid, 641 00:59:28,898 --> 00:59:34,370 and we choose to love ourselves, and love each other, and honor the ways we can show up, 642 00:59:34,370 --> 00:59:37,774 and give each other grace for the ways we can't, 643 00:59:37,774 --> 00:59:42,111 this idea of access, it's really not so scary. 644 00:59:42,111 --> 00:59:46,015 As Robin was saying, a lot of times it's actually free. 645 00:59:46,015 --> 00:59:49,118 A lot of times it's a mindset and it's a willingness, and it's 646 00:59:49,118 --> 00:59:55,158 doing what the ancestors and elders in disability justice have taught us, and moving together. 647 00:59:55,158 --> 00:59:57,493 So, yeah. 648 00:59:57,493 --> 01:00:02,198 [Diane:] Well, yes! Yes to everything! 649 01:00:02,198 --> 01:00:06,669 I mean, we are here as a great community, right? We are here, like, all working together 650 01:00:06,669 --> 01:00:10,673 and trying to build a better world together, so I'm thankful for all of you! 651 01:00:10,673 --> 01:00:13,643 Really, like, all of you who are here today. 652 01:00:13,643 --> 01:00:17,914 Thank you. I have a question for… 653 01:00:17,914 --> 01:00:21,851 We all, since the pandemic, we all use 654 01:00:21,851 --> 01:00:30,493 a lot of digital tools also, and we all use tools that now digitally has opened some possibilities. 655 01:00:30,493 --> 01:00:38,334 And I have a question for those who tend to work with these tools on computer, like the digital 656 01:00:38,334 --> 01:00:42,238 platforms, and also the production side, and this would be 657 01:00:42,238 --> 01:00:44,841 a question for Malicious Sheep and for Kemal. 658 01:00:44,874 --> 01:00:52,715 So, both of you, you mainly use digital tools, like, for the production side of your work. 659 01:00:52,715 --> 01:00:58,354 and also the final products that you produce. 660 01:00:58,354 --> 01:01:04,327 At the final product, you will have some contents that needs to be 661 01:01:04,327 --> 01:01:14,704 accessible, and that needs to be shared in these either digital exhibition or movies, or whatever you're doing. 662 01:01:14,704 --> 01:01:20,410 And I wanted to know how your access needs are met when you're working in these digital tools. 663 01:01:20,410 --> 01:01:23,679 And I want to start with Malicious Sheep. 664 01:01:23,679 --> 01:01:32,688 [Malicious Sheep:] Yeah, sure. A lot of what I have been working with, 665 01:01:32,688 --> 01:01:38,695 as a lot of my health issues have progressed, I've switched to photography. 666 01:01:38,695 --> 01:01:49,372 and my photographs are not digitally altered at all, they're not staged or artificially lit, 667 01:01:49,372 --> 01:01:54,710 or go under any sort of post-production. So within that realm, 668 01:01:54,710 --> 01:01:57,947 within my art practice, it's not much affected. 669 01:01:57,947 --> 01:02:05,188 But the ways in which that I can access community and to share my work is deeply technical, 670 01:02:05,188 --> 01:02:09,759 where I am an immunodeficient person. 671 01:02:09,759 --> 01:02:16,699 I have been in permanent lockdown for 5 years, and that will go on for the rest of my life. 672 01:02:16,699 --> 01:02:23,406 And the way in which I am able to engage with community, and for the first time ever 673 01:02:23,406 --> 01:02:27,410 with an art community is through an ecosystem, 674 01:02:27,410 --> 01:02:31,981 a blockchain ecosystem called Tezos, particularly through Teia. 675 01:02:31,981 --> 01:02:38,187 I am a co-founder of this, one of 20 global community volunteers who, 676 01:02:38,187 --> 01:02:44,293 through open-source software, have created a digital art marketplace. 677 01:02:44,293 --> 01:02:55,705 And so, a lot of what we do there is create avenues for different types of files to be 678 01:02:55,705 --> 01:03:00,143 crafted into something that is transactable, 679 01:03:00,143 --> 01:03:11,621 and to provide space for, like, creative coding. So many various mediums are available within Teia. 680 01:03:11,621 --> 01:03:17,426 And a lot of what we do there, because everybody who works at Teia, 681 01:03:17,426 --> 01:03:24,033 20 core members, where all volunteer artists as well, globally. 682 01:03:24,033 --> 01:03:28,604 So we do a lot of, 683 01:03:28,604 --> 01:03:35,978 you know, troubleshooting and education and assist with all of the tech needs of everyone. 684 01:03:35,978 --> 01:03:42,084 One of the things that I'm super proud of as a disability justice advocate, can't help myself, 685 01:03:42,084 --> 01:03:47,190 when I got there, I was like, listen, the site is not accessible. We need to work on this. 686 01:03:47,190 --> 01:03:51,460 I know it's open source, I know we're all community volunteers here. 687 01:03:51,460 --> 01:03:57,433 You know, we're doing this part-time, but let's focus on this as a priority, and thankfully, the team was 688 01:03:57,433 --> 01:04:01,137 happy to do so. They were unaware that it was inaccessible. 689 01:04:01,137 --> 01:04:08,711 And once I explained it to them, they're like, oh, we need to solve this, like, tomorrow. Let's work on this. So, 690 01:04:08,711 --> 01:04:15,952 it's been great to, and within that, and within metaverse spaces in the ecosystem, 691 01:04:15,952 --> 01:04:19,922 all of the devs are really happy to put that work in. 692 01:04:19,922 --> 01:04:25,695 I, myself, am trying to train as one so that I can do a lot of this work too, because it is 693 01:04:25,695 --> 01:04:30,700 you know, we're building everything from scratch within this community, which is really fun. 694 01:04:30,700 --> 01:04:36,472 One of the features that we implemented a couple years ago, and we're 695 01:04:36,472 --> 01:04:42,712 working currently on screen reader capability. It is a work in progress, because 696 01:04:42,712 --> 01:04:46,515 our code is a hot mess in the back end. 697 01:04:46,515 --> 01:04:54,357 It's getting tidier with time. But we have two elements. 698 01:04:54,357 --> 01:04:59,695 Any new user who goes to Teia, which is teia.art, 699 01:04:59,695 --> 01:05:07,370 if they have not signed in with their wallet yet, then they see the site in an accessible way, which 700 01:05:07,370 --> 01:05:16,812 blurs any not-safe-for-work material, as well as any photosensitive material. And once users are able to 701 01:05:16,812 --> 01:05:22,918 sign-in, then they are able to select that within their settings to disengage that if they choose to view it. 702 01:05:22,918 --> 01:05:30,793 So, not safe for work is specifically for nudity or violence, for folks who have PTSD or complex PTSD. 703 01:05:30,793 --> 01:05:33,095 And for photosensitive folks, 704 01:05:33,095 --> 01:05:38,434 any moving, undulating, flashing GIFs or videos, 705 01:05:38,434 --> 01:05:44,573 anything like that, for folks who have vertigo or migraine, or epilepsy, 706 01:05:44,573 --> 01:05:50,513 so that the experience of the art community members is a safe one. 707 01:05:50,513 --> 01:05:54,684 And we want to make sure that everybody is... 708 01:05:54,684 --> 01:06:02,191 Even if they're just accessing it for the first time, we're not putting them in a position of potential crisis. 709 01:06:02,191 --> 01:06:06,429 So doing that work is really important. 710 01:06:06,429 --> 01:06:11,167 I know, to the team members there, which has been great, and as community organizer there, I love that. 711 01:06:11,167 --> 01:06:15,705 I also do a lot of 712 01:06:15,705 --> 01:06:22,712 curation and hosting within that ecosystem of over 10,000 artists globally. 713 01:06:22,712 --> 01:06:29,852 And so, a lot of... When I am hosting and designing events and things, 714 01:06:29,852 --> 01:06:37,560 I'm making sure to provide materials in as accessible a way as possible, hosting events. 715 01:06:37,560 --> 01:06:42,398 I serve as a reader for those who are non-speaking or phased-speaking 716 01:06:42,398 --> 01:06:45,534 or require a reader for any other reason. 717 01:06:45,534 --> 01:06:50,272 We do active translation, either live or through our documentation, 718 01:06:50,272 --> 01:06:53,476 as best as we can with volunteer power, so… 719 01:06:53,476 --> 01:07:00,349 And Teia being a non-profit, Dow LLC, which is volunteer-powered and community-owned. 720 01:07:00,349 --> 01:07:05,087 I think it's core to our values, so… 721 01:07:05,087 --> 01:07:12,561 But having access to that community has been beautiful for me. I've grown substantially as a person. 722 01:07:12,561 --> 01:07:17,700 And now taking on a leadership role within that community has been very beautiful, so… 723 01:07:17,700 --> 01:07:20,036 Yeah. 724 01:07:20,036 --> 01:07:25,574 [Diane:] Thanks. It's a lot! It's great. 725 01:07:25,574 --> 01:07:31,680 Kemal, what about you? You are… can you also tell us a little bit of what you do? 726 01:07:31,680 --> 01:07:39,054 [Kemal:] Yes, thanks, Diane. Actually, when it comes to work in business-to-business area, 727 01:07:39,054 --> 01:07:47,063 so you are the one who is supposed to be finding the solutions, rather than asking for solutions. 728 01:07:47,063 --> 01:07:49,865 And when it comes to access needs, 729 01:07:49,865 --> 01:07:54,537 from a media composition perspective, there are its own advantages and disadvantages. 730 01:07:54,537 --> 01:08:02,645 First, you have your own studio, so you can calibrate it, fine-tune it, as the way you want. 731 01:08:02,645 --> 01:08:08,684 But when it comes to working for a production team, a production company working with a director, 732 01:08:08,684 --> 01:08:12,788 it's a difference… difference, sorry. Because at the same time, you're… you're working for a client, and your job is creating solutions for that client, so… And at the same time, you may need your accessibility needs, but When it comes to that, you can… you can always… 733 01:08:12,788 --> 01:08:21,430 at the same time, you're working for a client, and your job is creating solutions for that client, so… 734 01:08:21,430 --> 01:08:27,136 And at the same time, you may need your accessibility needs, but 735 01:08:27,136 --> 01:08:30,706 when it comes to that, you can always 736 01:08:30,706 --> 01:08:37,012 ask questions, or give some guidelines or directions. 737 01:08:37,012 --> 01:08:45,020 But it really depends on the, on the project, really depends on the team, the company you're working with. 738 01:08:45,020 --> 01:08:50,960 But it may come down to this. You have to… you already… 739 01:08:50,960 --> 01:08:56,632 declared, so acknowledged that you are a professional. So, if you're a professional, 740 01:08:56,632 --> 01:09:05,908 You're supposed to be the one, you have to find your own solutions, and since we all here in this room, we are all… 741 01:09:05,908 --> 01:09:11,647 There's no rulebook, there's no handbook to make everything accessible, 742 01:09:11,647 --> 01:09:18,154 to redesign the work from scratch and make it good for all of us. 743 01:09:18,154 --> 01:09:25,261 Because nobody, nobody, uh, spent any time to think that before, but now we, 744 01:09:25,261 --> 01:09:33,536 as the members of the disability community, we are greatly forcing 745 01:09:33,536 --> 01:09:41,710 the world to rethink, reconsider their decisions and their mental processes, their mindsets. 746 01:09:41,710 --> 01:09:51,687 So, that makes us… That particular mindset, that particular movement makes us one of the frontiers 747 01:09:51,687 --> 01:10:04,967 in this matter. So, which means there's no considered, retried, examined, 748 01:10:04,967 --> 01:10:12,708 correct way to go. When it comes to… when we're talking about the media industry, 749 01:10:12,708 --> 01:10:21,083 this situation is a lot more tricky, because the media industry can be really conservative, in a way. 750 01:10:21,083 --> 01:10:24,587 It shouldn't be that way, because, you know, the media 751 01:10:24,587 --> 01:10:32,328 should be the industry, should be the inventive one, because, you know, the media includes 752 01:10:32,328 --> 01:10:41,036 video games to all the way to the streaming platforms, and go much on TV Networks, social platforms like YouTube and, 753 01:10:41,036 --> 01:10:49,111 and such. But from a business perspective, that can be really conservative, so you have to find your way, 754 01:10:49,111 --> 01:10:56,752 and you have to open doors for yourself, for the other fellow disabled professionals in different, 755 01:10:56,752 --> 01:11:04,727 working in different areas. It can be a… it can be video editing, through the media composition, through the cinematography, and other stuff. 756 01:11:04,727 --> 01:11:13,502 But being an inventor, since all of us, all of our natural quality, 757 01:11:13,502 --> 01:11:23,112 it can be done easily. Maybe not easily, but it can be done anyway. And, yes, it requires a lot of work. 758 01:11:23,112 --> 01:11:29,218 But since it's a natural quality for all of us, it's not that hard for us, actually. 759 01:11:29,218 --> 01:11:41,730 Not actually as hard as a regular… another person who doesn't carry that quality naturally. 760 01:11:41,730 --> 01:11:46,035 But I can share a story about that. Most recently, 761 01:11:46,035 --> 01:11:53,008 not most recently, but a couple of months ago, I got hired by a… by a cinema base director 762 01:11:53,008 --> 01:12:00,015 for scoring an Arthouse short movie about disability culture and 763 01:12:00,015 --> 01:12:10,392 how medical practitioners and medical professionals treat the disabled individuals, disabled persons. 764 01:12:10,392 --> 01:12:16,298 The thing is, the movie was originally created as a silent movie, then they created an audio description. 765 01:12:16,298 --> 01:12:23,205 And the director required a score for the audio description. 766 01:12:23,205 --> 01:12:30,713 And I was like, okay, then I can… then I will score music for the audio description. 767 01:12:30,713 --> 01:12:40,556 And that was right, but the director informed me that she also wants to combine everything after I finish score the movie. 768 01:12:40,556 --> 01:12:46,962 And I requested to see the picture, so I can make a better job. 769 01:12:46,962 --> 01:12:55,137 Sync the picture with score, but, uh, she asked me to do this without seeing the picture because, 770 01:12:55,137 --> 01:13:05,247 first, she wanted to prioritize audiences without sight, blind and visually impaired, 771 01:13:05,247 --> 01:13:11,053 and second, she wants to… She wants to experiment a concept if a 772 01:13:11,053 --> 01:13:19,695 blind composer can score music for a motion picture project without seeing the picture, obviously, 773 01:13:19,695 --> 01:13:25,400 and whether or not that score still can serve to the picture. 774 01:13:25,400 --> 01:13:29,338 And it turns out it did. Without any timecode. 775 01:13:29,338 --> 01:13:36,145 Without anything, just with the audio description, the music served to the picture really well. 776 01:13:36,145 --> 01:13:41,316 So, and now we understand that, thanks to this project, 777 01:13:41,316 --> 01:13:47,489 now we understand that if the production companies can… 778 01:13:47,489 --> 01:13:52,795 can put the audio description into the core production budget, 779 01:13:52,795 --> 01:13:57,499 a blind composer can perfectly score a music 780 01:13:57,499 --> 01:14:02,704 for that particular motion picture project, with the audio description, 781 01:14:02,704 --> 01:14:08,710 and maybe with some important timecode information. 782 01:14:08,710 --> 01:14:15,050 With that, a blind composer can score something, will perfectly work, 783 01:14:15,050 --> 01:14:22,691 work perfectly with the picture, and it opens a new… millions of possibilities 784 01:14:22,691 --> 01:14:28,697 for the media industry, for the audiences, for the creators, 785 01:14:28,697 --> 01:14:34,703 and for the composers who are blind or visually impaired. So, 786 01:14:34,703 --> 01:14:39,575 in this regard, I can easily argue that 787 01:14:39,575 --> 01:14:46,315 if you're just finding our ways with innovating, inventing, experimenting, trying stuff, 788 01:14:46,315 --> 01:14:53,589 and writing the handbook of accessibility, working in the digital era, and 789 01:14:53,589 --> 01:14:59,027 digital world and working for the media industry. 790 01:14:59,027 --> 01:15:06,335 [Diane:] Very good point. Yeah, I love the… it's a good point that, 791 01:15:06,335 --> 01:15:11,807 with the proper adaptation, well, we can do anything, right? 792 01:15:11,807 --> 01:15:17,713 It's just a matter of figuring how, and with what tools and what medium. 793 01:15:17,713 --> 01:15:20,849 [Kemal:] Yeah, it's just accommodation matter. because, you know, when we look at that, okay, we need… we need some some stuff because… Uh, of our conditions. 794 01:15:20,849 --> 01:15:24,520 Because, you know, when we look at that, okay, we need… 795 01:15:24,520 --> 01:15:31,693 we need some some stuff because of our conditions. 796 01:15:31,693 --> 01:15:35,364 It's not that accurate. It's not quite accurate. 797 01:15:35,364 --> 01:15:44,539 We need accommodations, just like every living thing needs in this really big universe, 798 01:15:44,539 --> 01:15:52,681 and on the face of the Earth, obviously. And the accommodations must be fulfilled. 799 01:15:52,681 --> 01:15:58,687 The only issue is here, I think, the only important issue is here. 800 01:15:58,687 --> 01:16:04,293 Sometimes, maybe most of the times, we just don't know that accommodations, because we… 801 01:16:04,293 --> 01:16:11,733 We haven't had the chance to work on that before. Now, since we have, if we have, 802 01:16:11,733 --> 01:16:17,072 we can set that accommodations correctly and accurately. 803 01:16:17,072 --> 01:16:24,813 And the problem, the issue about the mindset you know, that's the issue about the mindset. 804 01:16:24,813 --> 01:16:28,483 Everybody experiences it all the time. 805 01:16:28,483 --> 01:16:33,055 It's not limited with the disability culture. 806 01:16:33,055 --> 01:16:37,025 But it's really harsh on the disability culture. So, 807 01:16:37,025 --> 01:16:44,166 we need to work on that as well. Even though it's not our fault, or it's not… but we are the architects. 808 01:16:44,166 --> 01:16:48,937 So, if you want to build the future, yes, we also have to work 809 01:16:48,937 --> 01:16:54,142 on the mindset, the other people's… the other's mindset. That's the thing. 810 01:16:54,142 --> 01:17:02,684 [Diane:] Yeah. Well, thank you. Um, that's… yeah, that's a great answer. I really like that. 811 01:17:02,684 --> 01:17:10,626 I'm conscious of the time, and we are almost at the end of our conversation. I want to know if… 812 01:17:10,626 --> 01:17:18,300 to open the floor to our guests today, and attendents, people in attendance. 813 01:17:18,300 --> 01:17:25,574 Does anyone have a question for one of our guests? We have only a few minutes, unfortunately. 814 01:17:25,574 --> 01:17:32,681 [Kemal:] Oh, Diane, I have one… not one question, but I… at the very first… at the very beginning of the streaming, Elizabeth 815 01:17:32,681 --> 01:17:44,693 just told that she is running a tabletop RPG, and I'm just begging her to give me more information about that. 816 01:17:44,693 --> 01:17:54,069 [Elizabeth:] Yeah, so, we have a website, it's OpenTheGatesGaming.org. 817 01:17:54,069 --> 01:18:00,709 And we… it started with our local disability community during the real height of the pandemic, 818 01:18:00,709 --> 01:18:04,980 wanting to play Dungeons & Dragons with other people, because that was getting really popular. 819 01:18:04,980 --> 01:18:11,186 But it's not super accessible. So, we were developing tools so that they could play 820 01:18:11,186 --> 01:18:16,692 with everyone else. So we don't change the rules, they can just take our tools and play at any table anywhere. 821 01:18:16,692 --> 01:18:22,864 But then it's also expanding into making sure that the stories we're telling and the adventures that we're telling… 822 01:18:22,864 --> 01:18:28,370 that, you know, that are happening and unfolding are allowing people to explore any part of their identity. 823 01:18:28,370 --> 01:18:30,706 So things set in Mesoamerica, 824 01:18:30,706 --> 01:18:35,110 we've got, like, a Mesoamerican campaign setting in development that is, 825 01:18:35,110 --> 01:18:42,751 like, if the… if colonialists didn't win, right? Um, but it's also a little magical, so it's a little Wakanda feeling. 826 01:18:42,751 --> 01:18:47,689 And there's a project where we're taking operas, and you get to play Dungeons & Dragons inside of an opera, 827 01:18:47,689 --> 01:18:49,691 and push back against, 828 01:18:49,691 --> 01:18:55,130 and really experience the consequences of sexism and ableism and settler colonialism and racism, like, 829 01:18:55,130 --> 01:18:58,700 in these operas. So we have Tosca, Alcina. 830 01:18:58,700 --> 01:19:05,574 Um, oh my goodness, uh… Poor Chris Campo-Bowen is gonna be on my case. 831 01:19:05,574 --> 01:19:09,711 We're actually, next month, gonna be streaming "The Invisible Island of Kitezh" 832 01:19:09,711 --> 01:19:17,385 with some celebrities. So, I'll make sure Diane gets that information, but… 833 01:19:17,385 --> 01:19:22,824 [Diane:] I think what we will do is to publish all the resources that we discussed, like a regular episode, right? 834 01:19:22,824 --> 01:19:32,300 A lot of things were shared that are really important, so I will publish a a resource page with everything, so that we know... 835 01:19:32,300 --> 01:19:35,203 Okay, Carly, I see your hand is up. 836 01:19:35,203 --> 01:19:42,811 [Carly:] This is sort of a general one for the whole group, is sort of… 837 01:19:42,811 --> 01:19:47,983 how do you overcome some… when you're on, like, 838 01:19:47,983 --> 01:19:55,390 say, for instance, social assistance in that, having to deal with some systems that can be… 839 01:19:55,390 --> 01:20:04,566 from stone tablet style to quill and parchment. 840 01:20:04,566 --> 01:20:09,704 in modern versions? 841 01:20:09,704 --> 01:20:16,711 To encourage them to sort of upgrade to more modern, I mean. 842 01:20:16,711 --> 01:20:18,446 [Diane:] Emily? 843 01:20:18,446 --> 01:20:24,319 [Emily:] Yeah, I'll jump in here. Something that I think is important for us to keep in mind is that 844 01:20:24,319 --> 01:20:29,057 a lot of these systems are working exactly as they were designed to. 845 01:20:29,057 --> 01:20:36,698 Which means that they are intentionally creating more barriers for us to get the access and the support that we need. 846 01:20:36,698 --> 01:20:40,402 And that, you know, there are people within the system that want to help change it. 847 01:20:40,402 --> 01:20:46,708 So, this is… this is kind of one of the things I call using, you know, using my Karen powers for good. 848 01:20:46,708 --> 01:20:54,683 Where, you know, you just, you bring that energy to finding legal ways to complain or circumvent. 849 01:20:54,683 --> 01:20:58,286 Things that are giving you barriers to access. 850 01:20:58,286 --> 01:21:02,691 So, you know, if it's, you know, is there something that's, like, 851 01:21:02,691 --> 01:21:06,695 human rights adjacent, where you can complain if you're not getting the support you need. 852 01:21:06,695 --> 01:21:12,033 You know, can you complain, like, AODA if you're in the States, in terms of accessibility needs, 853 01:21:12,033 --> 01:21:18,773 things like that, where… Sometimes you have to be the squeaky wheel to get the attention in terms of… 854 01:21:18,773 --> 01:21:22,544 Pun not intended, but yeah, like… 855 01:21:22,544 --> 01:21:28,149 It's basically, if you can learn to use their own language and their own systems against them, 856 01:21:28,149 --> 01:21:31,152 when they're intentionally putting barriers in your way, like, 857 01:21:31,152 --> 01:21:38,693 cite the laws back to them, figure out what laws or what… what ombudsperson, organizations, what other places, like. 858 01:21:38,693 --> 01:21:46,234 You know, if you can go around them to a group that has higher… Or, like, an organization that has, kind of, jurisdiction over them? 859 01:21:46,234 --> 01:21:50,805 Being able to do that as much as possible, but it's… 860 01:21:50,805 --> 01:21:54,609 But again, too, it's like, remember that they're putting these barriers in place so that 861 01:21:54,609 --> 01:21:58,680 we will get tired, we will give up on advocating for ourselves. 862 01:21:58,680 --> 01:22:04,953 So, sometimes a little spite and a little resilience goes a long way, too, I will say, where… 863 01:22:04,953 --> 01:22:09,124 you know, if you're gonna make things difficult for me, I will make things just as difficult for you. 864 01:22:09,124 --> 01:22:13,695 And, like, and also having that self-assurance, that self-confidence to say, you know. 865 01:22:13,695 --> 01:22:17,532 Yes, I need this. Yes, I'm going to advocate for myself. 866 01:22:17,532 --> 01:22:22,704 And the more that you throw at me, the more I'm gonna put right back at you, because I deserve to have 867 01:22:22,704 --> 01:22:25,974 the same chance to thrive that those with more privilege do. 868 01:22:25,974 --> 01:22:34,349 So, being able to be your own cheerleader. While also navigating the systems goes a long way as well. 869 01:22:34,349 --> 01:22:41,990 [Diane:] Are you all fine to stay a little bit more and chat a little bit more? Because I think we have a great question here. 870 01:22:41,990 --> 01:22:49,097 Malicious Sheep, I saw your hand up when we were talking about that topic. 871 01:22:49,097 --> 01:22:53,702 [Malicious Sheep:] Mm-hmm, yeah… I love what was covered 872 01:22:53,702 --> 01:22:59,607 within, like, the institutional layer, but also within, like, materials layer for creatives, 873 01:22:59,607 --> 01:23:04,446 depending on what medium is your speciality. 874 01:23:04,446 --> 01:23:08,283 Getting creative with what you do have, and then seeking grants. 875 01:23:08,283 --> 01:23:15,056 I know grants aren't always accessible if you're on supports, but seeking honorariums 876 01:23:15,056 --> 01:23:18,293 is a way around that, especially in Canada. 877 01:23:18,293 --> 01:23:25,233 So if you're able to access honorariums through programs for funding for materials or technology upgrades, 878 01:23:25,233 --> 01:23:34,709 because one major thing, especially for digital artists, that they come across is technological cascades, especially if a lot of 879 01:23:34,709 --> 01:23:41,216 the... your budget is already allocated for devices that require 880 01:23:41,216 --> 01:23:49,224 technology, technological cascades can really impact, you know, either your quality of life or your access to community. 881 01:23:49,224 --> 01:23:58,700 So if you're able to access honorariums or other programs which may be in your community where there are donations of 882 01:23:58,700 --> 01:24:07,075 older devices, this is not just for artists, but there can be artists-specific ones. 883 01:24:07,075 --> 01:24:14,749 But there's also ones for older devices as donations, or new devices as donations as well, 884 01:24:14,749 --> 01:24:25,960 for seniors, you know, screen readers for folks who need that. 885 01:24:25,960 --> 01:24:29,831 Yeah, all sorts of different types of technology. It is 886 01:24:29,831 --> 01:24:34,669 mostly just seeking that out, but most folks don't know that that is a potential, 887 01:24:34,669 --> 01:24:41,576 so I wanted to flag that as an avenue. 888 01:24:41,576 --> 01:24:47,082 [Diane:] Thank you. Tekla. 889 01:24:47,082 --> 01:24:55,023 [Tekla:] Thank you all for this wonderful conversation. I appreciate how a number of you mentioned that access needs 890 01:24:55,023 --> 01:25:01,129 aren't only physical, they can also be emotional, social, psychological. 891 01:25:01,129 --> 01:25:07,235 So my question is whether any of you have worked with performers who have anxiety disorders, 892 01:25:07,235 --> 01:25:10,705 especially around performance anxiety. 893 01:25:10,705 --> 01:25:13,675 And if you have that kind of experience, either with 894 01:25:13,675 --> 01:25:19,113 working with performers who have those issues, or if you yourself have that kind of anxiety, 895 01:25:19,113 --> 01:25:23,351 what sorts of accommodations have you found might be helpful 896 01:25:23,351 --> 01:25:28,022 to accommodate disabling performance anxiety disorders, 897 01:25:28,022 --> 01:25:31,159 so that those performers could still get on stage 898 01:25:31,159 --> 01:25:36,231 and feel relatively comfortable, or get on stage and be visibly nervous, 899 01:25:36,231 --> 01:25:42,403 but ways that you've facilitated that process for them? 900 01:25:42,403 --> 01:25:48,243 [Diane:] Alex? Oh, sorry, yeah. Go ahead. Yes. 901 01:25:48,243 --> 01:25:52,847 [Alex:] Me? Okay. It's Alex speaking, and I think I have… 902 01:25:52,847 --> 01:26:01,122 I keep forgetting to say that I am blind. I have worked with many companies, both… well, 903 01:26:01,122 --> 01:26:08,696 mostly, actually, in the UK, but, certainly, I'm hoping to implement this here. 904 01:26:08,696 --> 01:26:17,705 Where we have created video. We've come up with an alternative character, so 905 01:26:17,705 --> 01:26:21,276 let's just say, I'll just be specific. In "Mother Courage," we had an actor who 906 01:26:21,276 --> 01:26:24,712 has exactly what you are speaking about. 907 01:26:24,712 --> 01:26:32,787 And we created a character for her to be a journalist reporting 908 01:26:32,787 --> 01:26:39,694 on what was happening to Mother Courage. So, if she had that kind of anxiety on that performance day, 909 01:26:39,694 --> 01:26:47,135 or nights, then we flipped to the video version of their participation. 910 01:26:47,135 --> 01:26:54,375 And when they were able to participate, we adjusted, we adapted to the live 911 01:26:54,375 --> 01:27:02,083 performance. And, you know, just getting everybody, getting everybody on board, 912 01:27:02,083 --> 01:27:05,954 like, right from the beginning, that is what… that is how we're working here. 913 01:27:05,954 --> 01:27:10,692 This is a great… what a wonderful opportunity for all of us, and… 914 01:27:10,692 --> 01:27:17,699 And I think if you… if you present these adaptations as creative opportunities, 915 01:27:17,699 --> 01:27:23,705 that's… that's… you're halfway there. Because they are, you know? Actors like to stay fresh. 916 01:27:23,705 --> 01:27:30,078 So, that was one technique, and it worked incredibly well. 917 01:27:30,078 --> 01:27:34,182 So, I'm just sharing that. End of thought. 918 01:27:34,182 --> 01:27:37,418 [Tekla:] That's so helpful! Thank you. 919 01:27:37,418 --> 01:27:41,689 [Diane:] Go ahead, Tekla. Sorry. 920 01:27:41,689 --> 01:27:46,694 [Tekla:] Oh, I was just thanking Alex for that very helpful reply. 921 01:27:46,694 --> 01:27:54,702 [Alex:] You are welcome. It's just one, you know, it's just one adaptation, but I'm sure there are many more. 922 01:27:54,702 --> 01:28:01,409 [Diane:] Before I gave the microphone to Alex, someone else, I cut someone else, and I wonder who it was? Someone wanted to reply. 923 01:28:01,409 --> 01:28:07,081 someone else, I cut someone else, and I wonder who it was. Someone wanted to reply. 924 01:28:07,081 --> 01:28:12,287 [Deshaymond:] Oh, it was me, it's Deshaymond. I just wanted to add that 925 01:28:12,287 --> 01:28:17,692 I have extreme social anxiety and performance anxiety, 926 01:28:17,692 --> 01:28:22,697 but I put it in my rider that I always need a quiet space. 927 01:28:22,697 --> 01:28:27,568 Even if it's, like, in the basement of the venue or something, I always have… 928 01:28:27,568 --> 01:28:32,707 I need at least 30 minutes before I go on stage to be very, very quiet and still, 929 01:28:32,707 --> 01:28:37,345 just so everything around me, you know, calms down. You know, backstage can be 930 01:28:37,345 --> 01:28:41,683 chaotic sometimes, and sometimes really loud, and all of that craziness. 931 01:28:41,683 --> 01:28:45,153 So, how I manage and how I deal with it is 932 01:28:45,153 --> 01:28:49,757 I automatically request what I need, and I take my candle down there, 933 01:28:49,757 --> 01:28:54,696 and I do my meditation, and all of that stuff to get mentally prepared 934 01:28:54,696 --> 01:29:00,234 to go out on stage and give a good performance. So, you know, it's definitely… 935 01:29:00,234 --> 01:29:05,707 I advocate. I try to always advocate for myself. I don't… I try not to be a Devo 936 01:29:05,707 --> 01:29:10,244 and say, I need, you know, only yellow M&Ms or something like that. 937 01:29:10,244 --> 01:29:14,849 But I definitely require a few things to give a good show, 938 01:29:14,849 --> 01:29:19,687 and quiet time and quiet space where I can kind of isolate a little bit 939 01:29:19,687 --> 01:29:25,693 really helps to calm my social anxiety and performance anxiety. 940 01:29:25,693 --> 01:29:29,297 [Diane:] Thank you. Mary, I saw your hands up, and I will 941 01:29:29,297 --> 01:29:34,035 give the word to you soon, but I… 942 01:29:34,035 --> 01:29:37,572 Rory, did you want to add something? 943 01:29:37,572 --> 01:29:40,108 [Rory:] Yeah, thanks. I'll be brief. 944 01:29:40,108 --> 01:29:43,978 I love the solutions that Alex and Deshaymond already presented. 945 01:29:43,978 --> 01:29:47,381 I love the idea of having just an alternative backup plan 946 01:29:47,381 --> 01:29:51,018 for the performance, and also a quiet space, 947 01:29:51,018 --> 01:29:54,455 which is one of the things that our artists sometimes request of us. 948 01:29:54,455 --> 01:29:57,725 We always ask… we always have an accessibility meeting with our artists 949 01:29:57,725 --> 01:29:59,694 and ask them what their needs are. 950 01:29:59,694 --> 01:30:05,433 And that's one of the most common requests, is just a quiet space. 951 01:30:05,433 --> 01:30:09,937 But the other thing I wanted to say is that a comment that we get frequently from our artists, 952 01:30:09,937 --> 01:30:16,444 and I can't say that they necessarily have anxiety disorders, but… 953 01:30:16,444 --> 01:30:23,518 But many of our artists have just said that performing in an atmosphere where all expressions are welcome 954 01:30:23,518 --> 01:30:28,689 and where the audience's access needs are being met and prioritized, 955 01:30:28,689 --> 01:30:35,029 helps them to just relax into the moment, and realize what the purpose of the event is, 956 01:30:35,029 --> 01:30:40,368 which is not to be on display as a perfect performer, 957 01:30:40,368 --> 01:30:43,704 but to engage with the people in the room. 958 01:30:43,704 --> 01:30:50,711 And that's been really magical to see in many, many contexts. 959 01:30:50,711 --> 01:30:57,852 [Diane:] Yes. Absolutely, and we're… the most… the more… 960 01:30:57,852 --> 01:31:03,191 It's very helpful to have a set where people are welcoming, and, 961 01:31:03,191 --> 01:31:07,695 you know, and respectful, and everything. 962 01:31:07,695 --> 01:31:10,998 Laura, did you want to add something? 963 01:31:10,998 --> 01:31:14,769 [Laura:] Yes, thank you. Hi. Speaking as somebody who's done 964 01:31:14,769 --> 01:31:19,340 a lot of work with people who have riders, including the green M&Ms one, 965 01:31:19,340 --> 01:31:21,309 there's a reason for that. 966 01:31:21,309 --> 01:31:27,682 And I think that actually it'd be a terrific way to start thinking about our access needs as riders in our contract. 967 01:31:27,682 --> 01:31:31,719 The reason why performers will say things like, these green M&Ms 968 01:31:31,719 --> 01:31:35,489 is because then they know that the microphones will work. 969 01:31:35,489 --> 01:31:38,593 They know that the speakers will be appropriate. 970 01:31:38,593 --> 01:31:43,698 They know that the stage will be set in the right way. So if they followed and paid attention 971 01:31:43,698 --> 01:31:48,302 to the terms of the rider, they're safe. 972 01:31:48,302 --> 01:31:50,905 That's, I think, what all of us are looking for. 973 01:31:50,905 --> 01:31:57,712 And I've really experienced great things when people have been made to feel more welcome. 974 01:31:57,712 --> 01:32:02,683 The quiet space also works really well for people with a variety of neurodivergencies. 975 01:32:02,683 --> 01:32:08,823 So, these are… it's valuable across the board. End thought. 976 01:32:08,823 --> 01:32:12,260 [Diane:] Mary, I will take your question. 977 01:32:12,260 --> 01:32:17,832 I'm conscious of the time, and I don't want to spend hours and hours, 978 01:32:17,832 --> 01:32:21,869 but I love this conversation, I would love to stay more, but yeah. 979 01:32:21,869 --> 01:32:23,070 Mary, go ahead. Yes. 980 01:32:23,070 --> 01:32:24,939 [Mary:] Mary, do you mean me? 981 01:32:24,939 --> 01:32:26,207 [Diane:] Yes. 982 01:32:26,207 --> 01:32:30,077 [Mary:] Hello, my name is Mary, Mary Kelly. 983 01:32:30,077 --> 01:32:32,680 I'm perhaps coming at this from a different perspective. 984 01:32:32,680 --> 01:32:37,685 I just discovered the ArtsAbly group yesterday through LinkedIn 985 01:32:37,685 --> 01:32:43,357 where I'm very active. I think I'm probably older than most of you. I'm 73. 986 01:32:43,357 --> 01:32:49,697 I did have a very active career in the performing arts, visual arts, etc. 987 01:32:49,697 --> 01:32:54,869 Mostly behind the scene. I was a co-producer for a theatre company in Montreal. 988 01:32:54,869 --> 01:32:58,706 I also had my own communications company. I did a lot of that. 989 01:32:58,706 --> 01:33:02,143 At the Saidye Bronfman Centre, and any number of other, 990 01:33:02,143 --> 01:33:06,681 and as well as in Toronto at the Royal Alex Theatre a number of years ago, 991 01:33:06,681 --> 01:33:13,688 it's Centre Stage Magazine. So,I'm very grateful to be here and learn about all of you. 992 01:33:13,688 --> 01:33:17,692 Your experiences, and those of you that have formed companies and groups, etc. 993 01:33:17,692 --> 01:33:20,595 Love to connect with you through social media. 994 01:33:20,595 --> 01:33:25,700 I've been housebound disabled, often bedridden, for the past 26 years. 995 01:33:25,700 --> 01:33:32,740 So, like, I believe… one of the other persons this evening, spoke to the issue 996 01:33:32,740 --> 01:33:39,447 that they're mostly have to deal with things virtually. I'm very grateful for social media. 997 01:33:39,447 --> 01:33:44,986 I'm very active in terms of social determinants of health, 998 01:33:44,986 --> 01:33:52,693 disability rights, just across the spectrum, most of the things that I post about through LinkedIn, Facebook, 999 01:33:52,693 --> 01:33:57,698 X-Twitter, Bluesky… I'm not really active on Instagram, but I follow other people there. 1000 01:33:57,698 --> 01:34:01,969 All have to do with trying to make 1001 01:34:01,969 --> 01:34:07,708 our world a much better place for us all. It's sort of been a lifelong passion 1002 01:34:07,708 --> 01:34:15,683 of mine, a driving force, and… And certainly in terms of the arts, so I just want to thank you 1003 01:34:15,683 --> 01:34:21,088 all so much for what you're doing. And you can find me on any of those platforms, 1004 01:34:21,088 --> 01:34:25,693 either under my name, Mary C. Kelly, and my handle is at Astute Citizen, 1005 01:34:25,693 --> 01:34:29,663 or under my former company name, it's not active, 1006 01:34:29,663 --> 01:34:32,700 but May Communication, Mary Kelley Communication Services. 1007 01:34:32,700 --> 01:34:38,706 I'd love to keep, particularly those of you, well, in every realm. 1008 01:34:38,706 --> 01:34:44,712 where I can help to promote informally, because, 1009 01:34:44,712 --> 01:34:49,216 I am often veteran, so my reality is very constrained, 1010 01:34:49,216 --> 01:34:52,553 but if I know about you, including ArtsAbly, I shared that on LinkedIn, 1011 01:34:52,553 --> 01:34:56,857 then I'd love to do that, and just thank you so much for letting me be here, 1012 01:34:56,857 --> 01:35:00,694 I'm not going to be an active participant in the way that the rest of you are. 1013 01:35:00,694 --> 01:35:09,703 But, um, I've been doing my thing championing this in disability rights, and including even earlier today, 1014 01:35:09,703 --> 01:35:16,343 for at least the past 26 years, if not much longer than that. So, thank you. 1015 01:35:16,343 --> 01:35:23,250 [Diane:] Thank you for sharing. And, before giving the word to Elizabeth, 1016 01:35:23,250 --> 01:35:28,055 maybe Malicious Sheep, do you want to… 1017 01:35:28,055 --> 01:35:32,493 I know that some problematics are also yours. 1018 01:35:32,493 --> 01:35:39,800 But you just showed that, you know, so many things where possible 1019 01:35:39,800 --> 01:35:50,177 with, a community. And I wanted to give the… briefly the word back to you, Malicious Sheep. 1020 01:35:50,177 --> 01:35:57,551 What are your… When you are searching for the community to come to you, 1021 01:35:57,551 --> 01:36:05,259 what were your strategies? What… how did you start that, and where did you dig into that? 1022 01:36:05,259 --> 01:36:10,264 [Malicious Sheep:] Mm-hmm. I appreciate this question a lot. 1023 01:36:10,264 --> 01:36:14,835 So, while... A little bit of a backstory. 1024 01:36:14,835 --> 01:36:23,344 For 10 years, I was completely immobilized due to a series of cascading health issues. 1025 01:36:23,344 --> 01:36:29,450 And slowly re-emerged after a decade. 1026 01:36:29,450 --> 01:36:37,825 And just prior to COVID lockdowns, I started re-emergence. I started to look for a community. 1027 01:36:37,825 --> 01:36:42,997 I had been looking for community previously, but I found a lot of it to be inaccessible 1028 01:36:42,997 --> 01:36:48,302 or ableist, or otherwise prejudicial. 1029 01:36:48,302 --> 01:36:51,772 So it was really difficult to really find myself there. 1030 01:36:51,772 --> 01:36:57,311 And then any physical locations that I was able to access at the time. 1031 01:36:57,311 --> 01:37:03,317 I wasn't able to access. A lot of the spaces around me, regionally, are, 1032 01:37:03,317 --> 01:37:07,988 historical buildings, so not up to code. 1033 01:37:07,988 --> 01:37:14,128 And they did not have the budgets to upgrade, so I moved digitally, thankfully, with... 1034 01:37:14,128 --> 01:37:18,666 One of the benefits of lockdown was that everybody learned how to use Zoom, 1035 01:37:18,666 --> 01:37:21,702 and that's how I started to integrate, 1036 01:37:21,702 --> 01:37:30,911 after 10 years. And I spent some time exploring 1037 01:37:30,911 --> 01:37:39,987 accessible events. So there was an event for Pride, which was an accessible Pride event that was done virtually, which I attended, 1038 01:37:39,987 --> 01:37:46,694 as well as a… accessible curation, which both were done through Zoom. 1039 01:37:46,694 --> 01:37:52,399 Those were fabulous. And then I came across a community called Creative Connector. 1040 01:37:52,399 --> 01:37:58,272 I recommend that for anybody. That is how I found ArtsAbly. 1041 01:37:58,272 --> 01:38:06,013 It's a community network that is powered by disabled community members. 1042 01:38:06,013 --> 01:38:08,983 It is all across Canada, but they are expanding. 1043 01:38:08,983 --> 01:38:12,886 They are wonderful. You can make yourself a little profile. 1044 01:38:12,886 --> 01:38:17,391 And I've had a couple opportunities through that, which has been great. 1045 01:38:17,391 --> 01:38:26,433 But then, accessing the blockchain community, which I mentioned earlier, Tezos, 1046 01:38:26,433 --> 01:38:30,804 I came across it through a music community, the… 1047 01:38:30,804 --> 01:38:35,342 you know, the musician, at the time was exploring it, 1048 01:38:35,342 --> 01:38:42,683 and I ended up being in there, and now I'm, like, a leader in that community. So, it's been very fun. 1049 01:38:42,683 --> 01:38:48,389 And it really is, like, the first time that I've actually felt, 1050 01:38:48,389 --> 01:38:52,993 like, community support. I was always, 1051 01:38:52,993 --> 01:39:00,100 like, in my previous experiences, like, I even served before I got really sick, I served as a curator in Toronto for a year, 1052 01:39:00,100 --> 01:39:07,474 but even in the spaces that I could access before my health dissolved, 1053 01:39:07,474 --> 01:39:18,686 devolved, rather, um… I was treated like an imposition, and not as a person. 1054 01:39:18,686 --> 01:39:24,692 And that only got worse with time, until I had digital access. And because I have been locked down, 1055 01:39:24,692 --> 01:39:30,030 and will be for the rest of my life. I have one of the rarest 1056 01:39:30,030 --> 01:39:35,703 immunodeficiencies on record. It's me and one other person 1057 01:39:35,703 --> 01:39:40,708 who has since passed. So 1058 01:39:40,708 --> 01:39:48,582 my entire social existence is digital, and so because of that, 1059 01:39:48,582 --> 01:39:54,555 and that inaccess that I've faced elsewhere, I aim to build spaces 1060 01:39:54,555 --> 01:40:00,694 in which that doesn't occur. So removing lateral structures, 1061 01:40:00,694 --> 01:40:05,799 or removing hierarchical structures, rather, and moving to lateral structures, 1062 01:40:05,799 --> 01:40:10,471 for organization. And decentralized 1063 01:40:10,471 --> 01:40:17,011 community-driven mutual aid groups and grassroots supports in education. 1064 01:40:17,011 --> 01:40:21,348 So that's definitely a priority for me, because I have seen it work, 1065 01:40:21,348 --> 01:40:28,188 and have felt the impact of institutions who… their aim is to preserve. 1066 01:40:28,188 --> 01:40:34,962 They do not want to move forward actively. They need to be shown that it can be done easily, cheaply, 1067 01:40:34,962 --> 01:40:38,632 and that they will not be punished for those transgressions 1068 01:40:38,632 --> 01:40:43,704 in order to actually adopt things often. So… 1069 01:40:43,704 --> 01:40:52,379 I'm trying my best to provide a space in which I can provide that evidence 1070 01:40:52,379 --> 01:40:59,620 in a new way, with folks who are... I consider my family within the ecosystem. We're all 1071 01:40:59,620 --> 01:41:04,525 a wonderful, happy, global family of artists and developers, 1072 01:41:04,525 --> 01:41:06,994 and so we want to support one another. 1073 01:41:06,994 --> 01:41:12,332 and removing barriers in a way that an institution doesn't want to, so… 1074 01:41:12,332 --> 01:41:14,768 I hope that covers it. I think it does, but yeah. 1075 01:41:14,768 --> 01:41:19,173 [Diane:] Yes, thank you. Jessica, I saw your hand. I will come back to you. 1076 01:41:19,173 --> 01:41:22,709 But before, Elizabeth, do you want to add something? 1077 01:41:22,709 --> 01:41:26,447 [Elizabeth:] Oh, only that… I just wanted to affirm that… 1078 01:41:26,447 --> 01:41:30,684 and I'm not going to do as good a job with this as Malicious Sheep just did, that's wonderful 1079 01:41:30,684 --> 01:41:36,857 how you put it, but for Mary, like, online organizing is organizing. 1080 01:41:36,857 --> 01:41:40,894 Online community is community. The work that you're doing is incredibly important. 1081 01:41:40,894 --> 01:41:45,966 Amplifying other people's voices is very important. 1082 01:41:45,966 --> 01:41:50,370 What both of you were saying brought to mind someone else's work, 1083 01:41:50,370 --> 01:41:58,779 Dom Evans, who is a filmmaker, and directed an award-winning music video 1084 01:41:58,779 --> 01:42:07,154 for James Ian, another RAMPD member, a couple of years ago, and Dom directed the entire thing 1085 01:42:07,154 --> 01:42:12,693 from bed in Michigan. And it was filmed across the country. 1086 01:42:12,693 --> 01:42:15,629 Dom does amazing, amazing work. 1087 01:42:15,629 --> 01:42:22,136 and is one of those examples of once you let go of the old rules and you really prioritize access, 1088 01:42:22,136 --> 01:42:28,175 some cool, creative things can happen, so I just wanted to make sure I lifted up Dom's work. 1089 01:42:28,175 --> 01:42:30,644 But thank you both. 1090 01:42:30,644 --> 01:42:36,683 [Diane:] Thank you. Jessica, do you want to ask your question? 1091 01:42:36,683 --> 01:42:42,456 [Jessica:] Hi. Yeah. I wanted to ask... 1092 01:42:42,456 --> 01:42:48,362 I should have to get my words. How is… how do we find… 1093 01:42:48,362 --> 01:42:52,399 I know there's a lot of people here from, like, music academia. 1094 01:42:52,399 --> 01:42:57,371 How do you find that academia is changing music education? 1095 01:42:57,371 --> 01:43:00,274 And I kind of wanted to specifically ask as well, 1096 01:43:00,274 --> 01:43:05,012 like, are people taking a more multidisciplinary approach, 1097 01:43:05,012 --> 01:43:13,220 to music education and in, like, the academia spheres? 1098 01:43:13,220 --> 01:43:16,390 [Diane:] Who wants to take that? 1099 01:43:16,390 --> 01:43:20,194 [Elizabeth:] I'm wondering… I'm waiting for Andrew to take it. 1100 01:43:20,194 --> 01:43:25,032 [Diane:] Yes. Andrew, are you still here? 1101 01:43:25,032 --> 01:43:27,134 [Andrew:] Yes, hold on, yes. 1102 01:43:27,134 --> 01:43:31,204 [Elizabeth:] I'm so sorry, Andrew. I could have just vamped for a minute. 1103 01:43:31,204 --> 01:43:35,242 [Andrew:] Exactly, you're the best vamper. 1104 01:43:35,242 --> 01:43:38,645 So, what I'll say is, maybe 1105 01:43:38,645 --> 01:43:44,017 kind of, I think it depends on what you mean by music education. My sense is that 1106 01:43:44,017 --> 01:43:50,257 the field of music education, choir music education, K-12 education. 1107 01:43:50,257 --> 01:43:54,061 is still working on very special education kinds of frameworks, for the most part. 1108 01:43:54,061 --> 01:43:55,996 I know there are people out there, but I... 1109 01:43:55,996 --> 01:44:01,435 Because that's not my playground, I don't know… to who... 1110 01:44:01,435 --> 01:44:03,203 I mean, there's Elizabeth, right there. 1111 01:44:03,203 --> 01:44:06,940 You know, she's drinking right now, but, I mean, there are… 1112 01:44:06,940 --> 01:44:08,442 a handful of people. 1113 01:44:08,442 --> 01:44:14,214 [Elizabeth:] It is tea, okay? The way you said that. Some people are not gonna see the tea mug. 1114 01:44:14,214 --> 01:44:20,587 [Andrew:] No, no, I'm sorry. No, um, it's tricky, because structurally, academia is still 1115 01:44:20,587 --> 01:44:25,025 impossible, because it's so conservative, again. 1116 01:44:25,025 --> 01:44:28,195 Malicious Sheep put it, as Elizabeth said, 1117 01:44:28,195 --> 01:44:31,698 better than any… I can ever put it. 1118 01:44:31,698 --> 01:44:38,505 So the structure of the academia is still a really dangerous place for anybody. 1119 01:44:38,505 --> 01:44:46,246 It is possible to find mentors who will make things less troubling, 1120 01:44:46,246 --> 01:44:50,550 and there are people who make it through these networks of mentorship. 1121 01:44:50,550 --> 01:44:54,921 And get breaks sometimes, and some people don't get breaks. I mean, again, 1122 01:44:54,921 --> 01:45:02,829 Elizabeth was saying earlier, we have a number of really extraordinary scholars in higher education music who 1123 01:45:02,829 --> 01:45:09,002 have been left out, who have been purposefully boxed out specifically because of the ableism and structure. 1124 01:45:09,002 --> 01:45:14,608 And we have a few rising scholars who are kicking ass in intersectional way, 1125 01:45:14,608 --> 01:45:21,181 and ain't gonna be stopped by it because they've found the right kinds of trajectories. 1126 01:45:21,181 --> 01:45:24,885 So, what I would say is, is it better than 10 years ago? Absolutely. 1127 01:45:24,885 --> 01:45:29,289 Is it straightforward? No. But I know 1128 01:45:29,289 --> 01:45:33,994 I am always ready to talk to people about what the least worst paths might be, 1129 01:45:33,994 --> 01:45:36,663 and I know Elizabeth is, 1130 01:45:36,663 --> 01:45:44,104 with the reality that it's a gamble, because academia is a terrible place. 1131 01:45:44,104 --> 01:45:47,574 I mean, I hate to put it that way, but… it kind of is... 1132 01:45:47,574 --> 01:45:50,944 [Elizabeth:] There's something you told me years ago, 1133 01:45:50,944 --> 01:45:56,650 which is that, like, you've got to be really clear that you're not letting 1134 01:45:56,650 --> 01:45:59,853 any of this defined your self-worth and how you understand yourself as a person, 1135 01:45:59,853 --> 01:46:02,422 because it's already built 1136 01:46:02,422 --> 01:46:08,195 to tear you down. And that idea of being more flexible and multidisciplinary is key. 1137 01:46:08,195 --> 01:46:11,298 I mean, if there's one thing people with disabilities can do better than anyone else, 1138 01:46:11,298 --> 01:46:14,935 it's creative problem solving and pivoting and adapting, and that's what you have to do to succeed 1139 01:46:14,935 --> 01:46:18,338 in these careers, too. I mean. I have no idea 1140 01:46:18,338 --> 01:46:22,209 why I have a research project with Dungeons & Dragons. I mean, I am a nerd, but that's... 1141 01:46:22,209 --> 01:46:26,513 I didn't even play D&D that long ago. 1142 01:46:26,513 --> 01:46:29,649 It's... If you're pivoting there, great people help there 1143 01:46:29,649 --> 01:46:36,590 But it is tricky, and that idea of being flexible multidisciplinary is very important. 1144 01:46:36,590 --> 01:46:39,993 [Andrew:] This is Andrew again, I'll jump in very briefly to say, 1145 01:46:39,993 --> 01:46:45,198 there are more people and it's worth finding them, or finding the networks. 1146 01:46:45,198 --> 01:46:50,036 And some of them are within systems that are themselves problematic. 1147 01:46:50,036 --> 01:46:55,142 But that doesn't mean that we need to give up on the system. I'm a systems kind of guy. 1148 01:46:55,142 --> 01:47:00,180 So, I mean, opposite to, or maybe not opposite to, but complementary to Malicious Sheep, 1149 01:47:00,180 --> 01:47:05,819 whose work I find just stunningly awesome, and I'm gonna have to track down everything that you're doing, 1150 01:47:05,819 --> 01:47:12,192 I am where I am, I've gotten to where I am, and so it's similar to Elizabeth's whole point about you open the gates from the inside. 1151 01:47:12,192 --> 01:47:17,197 But getting people inside the gates, and then… and then it is a boss battle. Right? 1152 01:47:17,197 --> 01:47:23,203 So the boss battles are still there. But we need people to help us with the boss battles. 1153 01:47:23,203 --> 01:47:26,973 And some of us are really eager to build those communities. So, 1154 01:47:26,973 --> 01:47:31,711 yeah, I mean, it's great to have everybody here. I've been so awed by everyone here, frankly. 1155 01:47:31,711 --> 01:47:35,615 Such a badass team here. Anyway, I'll shut up now. 1156 01:47:35,615 --> 01:47:40,086 [Diane:] I'm sorry, I know you all want to react, but um… I will have to wrap up, because it's been almost 2 hours, and I guess we need the 2 hours! 1157 01:47:40,086 --> 01:47:43,990 [Diane:] I'm sorry, I know you all want to react, but I will have to wrap up, because it's been almost 2 hours, 1158 01:47:43,990 --> 01:47:47,994 and I guess we need the 2 hours! 1159 01:47:47,994 --> 01:47:54,835 For the next live episode, episode 100, right? We will have a live. 1160 01:47:54,835 --> 01:48:01,908 So, I will give you a little conclusive words, and then, 1161 01:48:01,908 --> 01:48:06,913 I just wanted to thank everyone for being here today. 1162 01:48:06,913 --> 01:48:11,751 I... For those in attendance, thank you for staying. 1163 01:48:11,751 --> 01:48:15,388 and being there, chatting and conversing. 1164 01:48:15,388 --> 01:48:20,360 And, ah, I wish we had that more frequently, and I… it will… 1165 01:48:20,360 --> 01:48:22,896 it makes me think now. 1166 01:48:22,896 --> 01:48:26,900 So, as a brief conclusive chat, 1167 01:48:26,900 --> 01:48:33,206 support your communities of artists and art professionals with disabilities around you, right? 1168 01:48:33,206 --> 01:48:41,181 We need to have more access to performing and educational spaces and have these conversations. 1169 01:48:41,181 --> 01:48:45,185 As you heard tonight, we need advocates and supporters, so, 1170 01:48:45,185 --> 01:48:47,954 you know, listen, go and check the work... 1171 01:48:47,954 --> 01:48:53,193 I will, we will publish this resource page on ArtsAbly's website. 1172 01:48:53,193 --> 01:48:57,864 We will, like, connect with these people. I will publish 1173 01:48:57,864 --> 01:49:02,202 the profile for all the people who participated tonight. 1174 01:49:02,202 --> 01:49:06,773 So, yeah, I hope you enjoyed this conversation today. 1175 01:49:06,773 --> 01:49:11,177 It will be published as a special episode number 50, 1176 01:49:11,177 --> 01:49:17,183 as an usual podcast episode, and also the YouTube video. 1177 01:49:17,183 --> 01:49:27,193 And… yeah, thank you all, everybody, thank you, and enjoy the rest of your day or night! 1178 01:49:27,193 --> 01:49:30,897 And, uh, yeah, talk soon, everyone. Thank you. 1179 01:49:30,897 --> 01:49:33,199 [Alex:] Thank you, Diane. Thanks, everyone. 1180 01:49:33,199 --> 01:49:37,704 [Multiple speakers:] Thanks, Diane. Bye, everyone. 1181 01:49:37,704 --> 01:49:40,140 [Andrew:] Thank you Diane, thank you everybody, it's been a joy. 1182 01:49:47,847 --> 01:49:52,852 ♪ Closing theme music ♪