1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:06,139 ♪ Opening theme music ♪ 2 00:00:13,346 --> 00:00:17,517 Hello, and welcome to this episode of ArtsAbly in Conversation. 3 00:00:17,550 --> 00:00:19,586 My name is Diane Kolin. 4 00:00:19,619 --> 00:00:24,724 This series presents artists, academics, and project leaders who dedicate their 5 00:00:24,724 --> 00:00:30,663 time and energy to a better accessibility for people with disabilities in the arts. 6 00:00:30,697 --> 00:00:35,835 You can find more of these conversations on our website, artsably.com, 7 00:00:35,835 --> 00:00:41,074 which is spelled A-R-T-S-A-B-L-Y dot com. 8 00:00:42,008 --> 00:00:47,147 ♪ Theme music ♪ 9 00:00:54,554 --> 00:00:59,392 Today, Artsably is in conversation with Lisa Sniderman, a musical theater 10 00:00:59,426 --> 00:01:04,063 playwright, a songwriter, a ukulele player, and a vocalist, 11 00:01:04,063 --> 00:01:08,768 known by her artist's name, Aoede, living in California. 12 00:01:08,802 --> 00:01:13,206 You can find the resources mentioned by Lisa Sniderman during this episode 13 00:01:13,206 --> 00:01:16,810 on ArtsAbly's website in the blog section. 14 00:01:17,577 --> 00:01:22,715 ♪ Rhythmic music ♪ 15 00:01:30,056 --> 00:01:33,460 ♪ Sounds of people connecting on Zoom ♪ 16 00:01:34,227 --> 00:01:36,029 Hey, everybody. Check this out. 17 00:01:36,029 --> 00:01:38,231 What makes a live theater experience? 18 00:01:38,264 --> 00:01:41,968 I'm driven to find ways to take the spectacle of live theater, 19 00:01:42,001 --> 00:01:45,605 the visuals, the audio, and especially the feel of being 20 00:01:45,638 --> 00:01:49,876 in community with a live audience, and to create comparable, immersive, 21 00:01:49,909 --> 00:01:52,412 engaging experiences for a virtual audience. 22 00:01:52,445 --> 00:01:53,580 I'm Lisa Sniderman. 23 00:01:53,580 --> 00:01:56,816 I'm the playwright and co-composer for The Grieving Project. 24 00:01:56,850 --> 00:02:00,220 For 16 years, I've lived with rare chronic illness, and I 25 00:02:00,220 --> 00:02:04,390 kept so busy creating I realized I had forgotten to grieve my illness. 26 00:02:04,424 --> 00:02:09,062 And I've also been home for years, missing and unable to attend live theater. 27 00:02:09,095 --> 00:02:12,132 And I had this vision of bringing live theater experience 28 00:02:12,165 --> 00:02:17,537 to those like me in community with others through hybrid stage performances, 29 00:02:17,570 --> 00:02:19,038 which sparked The Grieving Project. 30 00:02:19,038 --> 00:02:24,277 My name is Suzanne Richard, the theatrical director of The Grieving Project. 31 00:02:24,310 --> 00:02:28,248 I wanted people to be able to go to the theater, and if they couldn't 32 00:02:28,281 --> 00:02:33,152 go to the theater, to be there watching a show in community with others. 33 00:02:33,152 --> 00:02:38,157 My name is Jessica Wallach, and I am the Accessibility Director 34 00:02:38,191 --> 00:02:40,026 of The Grieving Project. 35 00:02:40,059 --> 00:02:46,132 We want people to have multiple access points to experience this show. 36 00:02:46,165 --> 00:02:47,433 My name is Chistopher Morrison. 37 00:02:47,467 --> 00:02:50,403 I'm the Digital Experience Director for the Grieving Project. 38 00:02:50,436 --> 00:02:54,874 In order to bring in the show into the metaverse space, we brought in a 39 00:02:54,908 --> 00:02:57,377 three-camera team and a live stream team. 40 00:02:57,410 --> 00:02:59,646 Inside that metaverse space, there are three hanging screens 41 00:02:59,679 --> 00:03:01,714 over our digital twin of the theater. 42 00:03:01,714 --> 00:03:05,151 We So I had a digital twin of the lobby of the theater where our digital audience 43 00:03:05,185 --> 00:03:08,254 could meet in avatar form, talk with each other, obviously get some instructions 44 00:03:08,254 --> 00:03:09,689 about how the space would work. 45 00:03:09,722 --> 00:03:10,857 Hi, my name is Enoch Chan. 46 00:03:10,857 --> 00:03:15,061 I am video director, a live video director on Grieving Project. 47 00:03:15,094 --> 00:03:18,932 It very much became about really allowing for the audience to choose 48 00:03:18,932 --> 00:03:23,336 whatever moment they want to see, just like they're actually in in light play. 49 00:03:23,336 --> 00:03:26,239 ♪ Ambient music ♪ 50 00:03:27,073 --> 00:03:31,611 I was independent, and I was strong. 51 00:03:33,112 --> 00:03:38,551 I had passions and songs and was free to follow dreams. 52 00:03:40,486 --> 00:03:44,390 I didn't even give it thought. 53 00:03:44,424 --> 00:03:51,297 One word that encapsulates how this made you feel or what it made you think. 54 00:03:51,331 --> 00:03:57,870 Cool, curious, engaging, interesting, introspective, challenging. 55 00:03:57,904 --> 00:04:01,574 For those of us who can't go see big shows like Water for Elephants 56 00:04:01,574 --> 00:04:07,013 and The Outsiders in Hell's Kitchen, it's important that we, too, have 57 00:04:07,013 --> 00:04:11,851 engaging, immersive theater experiences beyond Broadway on demand. 58 00:04:11,884 --> 00:04:14,420 And this proof of concept is only the beginning. 59 00:04:14,420 --> 00:04:17,757 [End of the presentation.] 60 00:04:18,391 --> 00:04:21,894 Welcome to this new episode of ArtsAbly in Conversation. 61 00:04:21,928 --> 00:04:27,533 Today, I am with Lisa Sniderman, who is a musical theater playwright, 62 00:04:27,567 --> 00:04:33,840 a songwriter, a ukulily player, and a vocalist known by her artist's name, A. 63 00:04:33,840 --> 00:04:38,278 Aoede, living in California. Welcome, Lisa. 64 00:04:38,811 --> 00:04:41,347 Thank you. It's so great to be here. 65 00:04:41,381 --> 00:04:43,416 Thank you for being with us today. 66 00:04:43,416 --> 00:04:45,885 It's great to talk with you. 67 00:04:45,918 --> 00:04:51,791 I know you have a lot of projects going on, a lot of 68 00:04:51,958 --> 00:04:55,361 talents that you developed over the year. 69 00:04:55,395 --> 00:05:00,133 I am very interested in knowing a little bit more about you. 70 00:05:00,166 --> 00:05:05,905 As a first question, can you talk about your background, your story, 71 00:05:05,905 --> 00:05:08,207 Yes. I'm Lis. 72 00:05:08,241 --> 00:05:13,246 I go by she/her, and I'm in the San Francisco Bay Area, California. 73 00:05:13,246 --> 00:05:14,681 Okay, thank you. 74 00:05:14,714 --> 00:05:16,916 How did it start all that? 75 00:05:16,949 --> 00:05:20,186 How did you come to music and arts? 76 00:05:20,653 --> 00:05:25,258 Well, I have been living with a rare chronic illness for 16 77 00:05:25,291 --> 00:05:27,660 and a half years, two actually. 78 00:05:27,694 --> 00:05:32,298 Dermatomyositis, which is a progressive muscle weakness disease that affects my muscles, 79 00:05:32,331 --> 00:05:37,937 skin, stamina, energy, and something called common variable immune deficiency. 80 00:05:37,970 --> 00:05:42,108 That impacts my immune system and that means I make few antibodies. 81 00:05:42,141 --> 00:05:47,880 I've been homebound even before the pandemic due to compromised immunity. 82 00:05:48,348 --> 00:05:53,586 Let's take us back, as you said, years before all of this happened, so that you 83 00:05:53,586 --> 00:05:56,122 get a sense of that's where I am now. 84 00:05:56,155 --> 00:05:58,024 This is where I started. 85 00:05:58,057 --> 00:06:04,497 I started making music in a about 2006 under my artist persona, Aoede. 86 00:06:04,530 --> 00:06:09,569 I chose this name because she was the muse of song in Greek mythology. 87 00:06:09,569 --> 00:06:13,639 I actually wanted to be affiliated with inspiration, just 88 00:06:13,673 --> 00:06:19,212 to remind myself to be inspired and to continually inspire others. 89 00:06:19,278 --> 00:06:25,618 Actually in - I focused on albums and folk pop rock, 90 00:06:25,651 --> 00:06:28,154 initially, in a singer-songwriter genre. 91 00:06:28,187 --> 00:06:32,658 Then in 2010, I actually had a big health flare. 92 00:06:32,692 --> 00:06:37,130 I was diagnosed in '08 with the first of my muscle diseases. 93 00:06:37,130 --> 00:06:40,299 In '10, I had a big flare that hospitalized me. 94 00:06:40,333 --> 00:06:46,572 I was unable to use my muscles, and so I had to relearn how to do everything, 95 00:06:46,606 --> 00:06:52,512 basic functions, sit, play, stand, and relearn my instruments. 96 00:06:52,545 --> 00:06:57,083 That was a big transition in my life. 97 00:06:57,083 --> 00:07:01,020 I shifted my focus in 2012 to musical 98 00:07:01,053 --> 00:07:04,423 theater, knowing that it was not really 99 00:07:04,457 --> 00:07:09,462 in the cards for me anymore to be doing my singer-songwriter dream. 100 00:07:09,462 --> 00:07:12,565 I wasn't going to be able to tour. I couldn't do live performances. 101 00:07:12,565 --> 00:07:16,903 So I had to shift and figure out, how do I keep my dreams alive? 102 00:07:16,936 --> 00:07:21,040 And so at that point, I started creating young adult 103 00:07:21,073 --> 00:07:23,709 fantasy musicals as audiobooks. 104 00:07:23,743 --> 00:07:28,881 And I blended character voices and narration and full musical scores. 105 00:07:28,915 --> 00:07:33,886 So think of a radio play. I started putting those out in 2012. 106 00:07:33,886 --> 00:07:38,524 At the time, I had released, I think, well, actually, over time, I've released 107 00:07:38,558 --> 00:07:42,962 about 10 albums, including three of these fantasy musical audiobooks 108 00:07:42,962 --> 00:07:47,466 that I had put onto - that I'd recorded. 109 00:07:47,500 --> 00:07:50,903 And then I adapted some of those to stage plays. 110 00:07:50,937 --> 00:07:56,742 So basically, I had this health setback that prevented me 111 00:07:56,776 --> 00:07:58,478 from fully staging my work. 112 00:07:58,511 --> 00:08:01,881 And that was a big thing because I was really getting the musical theater 113 00:08:01,914 --> 00:08:04,917 bug, but I wasn't able to move forward. 114 00:08:04,951 --> 00:08:09,055 So the main thing is I created art, and I realized this only recently, 115 00:08:09,088 --> 00:08:12,024 to escape from my illness. 116 00:08:12,058 --> 00:08:16,028 And then I started making music and theater to help others 117 00:08:16,062 --> 00:08:18,664 struggling with chronic illness thrive. 118 00:08:18,698 --> 00:08:22,301 I started integrating my illness into my art, and I discovered that 119 00:08:22,301 --> 00:08:27,974 music and art are my lifelines, and I just can't stop creating. 120 00:08:28,207 --> 00:08:34,380 I think when COVID hit, it opened this possibility of connecting everywhere 121 00:08:34,380 --> 00:08:39,085 in the world that then became the normal. 122 00:08:39,252 --> 00:08:43,990 Did it influence your thoughts? 123 00:08:43,990 --> 00:08:47,326 Okay, Let's continue that and open it to the world. 124 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:51,497 There is no reason why we couldn't make it 125 00:08:51,797 --> 00:08:55,268 part of this project where everybody 126 00:08:55,301 --> 00:08:58,204 could connect from everywhere. 127 00:08:58,204 --> 00:08:58,804 Yeah. 128 00:08:58,838 --> 00:09:03,709 In my world, that leads to what I'm doing artistically 129 00:09:03,709 --> 00:09:07,046 or what I ended up doing is because... 130 00:09:07,046 --> 00:09:12,552 So I had spent so much time basically creating that I realized I hadn't grieved 131 00:09:12,585 --> 00:09:14,921 my illness for all of these years. 132 00:09:14,954 --> 00:09:17,123 I just sort of - and a lot of us do this. 133 00:09:17,123 --> 00:09:20,660 We put ourselves directly into our work and we just keep going. 134 00:09:20,693 --> 00:09:24,430 Sometimes it's a society thing that tells us, be strong. 135 00:09:24,463 --> 00:09:30,169 Don't let your outside show what's going on on the inside. 136 00:09:30,169 --> 00:09:34,540 And so I never really grieved, and that was a big thing. 137 00:09:34,573 --> 00:09:37,977 So it sparked me to create this project that I can talk about. 138 00:09:38,010 --> 00:09:42,181 But when you talk about COVID, it all happened during the pandemic. 139 00:09:42,214 --> 00:09:47,520 So it was a time where not only was I looking at like, Oh, all of these things 140 00:09:47,553 --> 00:09:51,057 that I may not have grieved with my illness and changed identity, 141 00:09:51,090 --> 00:09:52,725 but here we have a pandemic. 142 00:09:52,725 --> 00:09:56,796 So now we have loss on top of it that we were all feeling 143 00:09:56,829 --> 00:10:01,400 that was also brought to that project, including how it was created. 144 00:10:01,434 --> 00:10:04,770 Just the fact that we had to be in different places. 145 00:10:04,804 --> 00:10:07,073 I couldn't be physically at the studio. 146 00:10:07,106 --> 00:10:09,375 My health doesn't allow that. 147 00:10:09,408 --> 00:10:11,043 So my producer was at the studio. 148 00:10:11,077 --> 00:10:16,515 So the pandemic helped shape the projects that I did during those years, for sure. 149 00:10:16,549 --> 00:10:20,419 I think it also opened so much possibilities to other artists just 150 00:10:20,453 --> 00:10:26,425 to imagine, Okay, I'm an artist creating from my bed, but now I can create from 151 00:10:26,459 --> 00:10:31,697 a theater with a computer, with someone helping me put a computer there. 152 00:10:31,731 --> 00:10:38,204 I saw so many artists having new ideas and also gaining confidence 153 00:10:38,204 --> 00:10:44,910 on the fact that there was a new possibility that was opening. 154 00:10:44,944 --> 00:10:45,644 Absolutely. 155 00:10:45,678 --> 00:10:51,517 For some of us living with illness and disabilities, that wasn't new. 156 00:10:51,550 --> 00:10:54,387 I'm not saying the ability to connect with theater. 157 00:10:54,420 --> 00:10:57,189 You'll see that the project I'm talking about is exactly that, 158 00:10:57,223 --> 00:11:01,627 bringing live theater experience to people who can't attend like me. 159 00:11:01,660 --> 00:11:06,232 However, but first, even Zoom, that was something for some people. 160 00:11:06,265 --> 00:11:08,968 I'd been on Zoom for years. 161 00:11:08,968 --> 00:11:11,837 That had been my main way of connecting. 162 00:11:11,871 --> 00:11:17,510 And I gave workshops on things that I was doing to chronic illness communities. 163 00:11:17,510 --> 00:11:20,713 So I was already in that realm. 164 00:11:20,746 --> 00:11:25,584 In other words, the isolation factor wasn't as big for me for the pandemic 165 00:11:25,618 --> 00:11:29,455 as it was for some because I had already been operating that way. 166 00:11:29,488 --> 00:11:33,926 And a lot of I had talked to who had been living with illness and not so much 167 00:11:33,959 --> 00:11:39,565 out in the world were guidance to other people when it happened because 168 00:11:39,565 --> 00:11:42,468 we've been there, we've been isolated. 169 00:11:42,501 --> 00:11:46,706 Yeah. It reminds me of the talks we can have 170 00:11:46,706 --> 00:11:49,909 in disability studies and critical disability studies, 171 00:11:49,942 --> 00:11:56,749 where really the medical model of disability, framing everything around 172 00:11:56,782 --> 00:12:02,688 whatever a condition is, blocks the humanity 173 00:12:02,688 --> 00:12:06,559 and the social parts of the person. 174 00:12:06,592 --> 00:12:07,726 Absolutely. 175 00:12:07,726 --> 00:12:10,730 I always feel this. I am not my disease. 176 00:12:10,730 --> 00:12:17,403 I have a disease, and it does shape part of my identity, as does disability. 177 00:12:17,403 --> 00:12:22,408 I understand that about myself, but I am first and foremost an artist. 178 00:12:22,408 --> 00:12:27,446 I am not saying, Hey, I am Dermatomyositis. 179 00:12:27,446 --> 00:12:28,914 That is not me. 180 00:12:28,948 --> 00:12:34,120 That's exactly what I mean by, I think we're on the same page about that, 181 00:12:34,153 --> 00:12:37,323 that I'm not the medical model either. 182 00:12:38,157 --> 00:12:43,863 Speaking of medical model, you did a very interesting project. 183 00:12:43,896 --> 00:12:50,002 It's a video where you explain your experience in this progression of 184 00:12:50,002 --> 00:12:52,505 the disease, and it's an animated video. 185 00:12:52,505 --> 00:12:54,807 Can you talk about this project? 186 00:12:54,807 --> 00:12:58,511 Keep Shining, if that's the one you're talking about. 187 00:12:58,544 --> 00:12:58,911 Yeah. 188 00:12:58,944 --> 00:13:03,382 This was spark for the project that I'm going to be telling you about 189 00:13:03,382 --> 00:13:04,683 called The Grieving Project. 190 00:13:04,683 --> 00:13:11,690 The reason that it is such a spark for me is I think, as I was saying, 191 00:13:11,724 --> 00:13:18,097 I denied or I avoided really thinking about what happened to me back 192 00:13:18,130 --> 00:13:21,734 when I was in the hospital. Well, that happened in 2010. 193 00:13:21,767 --> 00:13:26,138 It was 2019 when I was creating Keep Shining. 194 00:13:26,172 --> 00:13:30,976 And I had interviewed a whole bunch of people for a project 195 00:13:31,010 --> 00:13:32,878 called Lights in the Darkness. 196 00:13:32,912 --> 00:13:35,147 I thought, like I had written a book. 197 00:13:35,181 --> 00:13:36,582 I wanted to share my memoir. 198 00:13:36,582 --> 00:13:39,552 It's called A Light in the Darkness: Transcending Chronic Illness 199 00:13:39,585 --> 00:13:41,687 Through the Power of Art and Attitude. 200 00:13:41,687 --> 00:13:44,590 And when I thought to myself, what's the best way that I want 201 00:13:44,623 --> 00:13:45,825 to share this with the world. 202 00:13:45,825 --> 00:13:48,427 It was in collaboration with other artists. 203 00:13:48,460 --> 00:13:53,799 I looked all over the world to find people who are also creating to heal 204 00:13:53,832 --> 00:13:55,634 and did this Lights in the Darkness. 205 00:13:55,668 --> 00:14:00,940 I created a song that was based on all of our experiences called Keep Shining. 206 00:14:00,973 --> 00:14:07,479 It wasn't until I created the video for it that I realized this is my story. 207 00:14:07,513 --> 00:14:12,351 As it was unfolding that, Oh, my gosh, the storyboard is the hospital. 208 00:14:12,384 --> 00:14:15,321 Oh, my gosh, the storyboard is recovery, et cetera. 209 00:14:15,354 --> 00:14:20,192 That that was the first symbol to me. 210 00:14:20,226 --> 00:14:21,927 I hadn't grieved my illness. 211 00:14:21,927 --> 00:14:26,565 A nurse, when I was getting infusions at the time, saw this video and said, 212 00:14:26,565 --> 00:14:34,006 your video can help others access their feelings in a way that words alone can't. 213 00:14:34,006 --> 00:14:37,042 And that sparked me to create The Grieving Project 214 00:14:37,042 --> 00:14:40,412 as a spoken word musical audiobook. 215 00:14:40,546 --> 00:14:43,682 So can you talk about this project, The Grieving Project? 216 00:14:43,682 --> 00:14:44,516 Absolutely. 217 00:14:44,550 --> 00:14:50,322 So not only did I describe that I've been home due to health, but I've also 218 00:14:50,322 --> 00:14:54,059 been able to not attend live theater. 219 00:14:54,093 --> 00:14:58,764 And I envision bringing the spectacle of live theater to others. 220 00:14:58,764 --> 00:15:02,568 And whether that's the audio, the visuals, the feeling of being in community 221 00:15:02,601 --> 00:15:08,440 with others, all of that sparked this vision to adapt an audiobook 222 00:15:08,474 --> 00:15:12,244 that I created during the pandemic to a hybrid stage musical. 223 00:15:12,244 --> 00:15:15,147 I don't want to spend a ton of time on the audiobook, but I'll just say 224 00:15:15,147 --> 00:15:21,387 during the pandemic, that was my source and inspiration was like, I basically 225 00:15:21,387 --> 00:15:27,059 put together 14 tracks, and they all revolved around grieving and thriving. 226 00:15:27,092 --> 00:15:31,463 So seven related to the stages of grief and seven related to these stages 227 00:15:31,463 --> 00:15:36,268 that I created of thriving because I didn't want to stop at acceptance. 228 00:15:36,268 --> 00:15:40,472 That doesn't go far enough in my eyes. 229 00:15:40,506 --> 00:15:42,308 So anyways, I created this. 230 00:15:42,308 --> 00:15:44,009 I've started adapting it. 231 00:15:44,009 --> 00:15:48,747 And my dream is to stage this, but I can't physically be part of it. 232 00:15:48,781 --> 00:15:53,819 We ask ourselves, What do you do if you can't realize your dream in person? 233 00:15:53,852 --> 00:15:58,257 This was what came to me about this idea of the Grieving Project. 234 00:15:58,290 --> 00:16:02,561 When I started adapting it, this goal is to reimagine theater 235 00:16:02,594 --> 00:16:06,165 and bring experiences to people who can't attend live shows. 236 00:16:06,198 --> 00:16:09,535 We did this with a hybrid disability center musical 237 00:16:09,568 --> 00:16:13,172 that blends live and virtual theater. 238 00:16:13,405 --> 00:16:17,976 Basically, think about If I describe what we did as a proof of concept, 239 00:16:18,010 --> 00:16:23,349 which I'll describe in a little bit, it's like you're able to experience it. 240 00:16:23,349 --> 00:16:26,285 If you can go in person, you can see it in a theater live. 241 00:16:26,285 --> 00:16:31,957 If you can't, like me, you go into a virtual computer generated space. 242 00:16:31,990 --> 00:16:33,525 Think of it like that. 243 00:16:33,525 --> 00:16:35,461 We meet, Diane. 244 00:16:35,494 --> 00:16:41,500 We sit and we meet as avatars in a lobby, and we can talk, and we can see things 245 00:16:41,533 --> 00:16:44,837 around us, and then we can go into the theater and watch the show together. 246 00:16:44,837 --> 00:16:46,705 It's a community experience. 247 00:16:46,739 --> 00:16:52,344 It's an opportunity to engage and bring this idea of spectacle to others. 248 00:16:52,378 --> 00:16:57,683 In the story, it's set pre-pandemic, where there's four disabled artists 249 00:16:57,683 --> 00:17:01,520 that compete on a reality show called Disabled Got Talent. 250 00:17:01,553 --> 00:17:07,493 As the story progresses, we explore themes of illness and mental health 251 00:17:07,526 --> 00:17:11,897 and identity and transformation through the lens of this reality show. 252 00:17:11,930 --> 00:17:15,300 The 14 stages of Grieving and Thriving that I was mentioning 253 00:17:15,334 --> 00:17:17,569 mirror the competition rounds. 254 00:17:17,569 --> 00:17:21,206 So Lis is this playwright and a game developer with 255 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:25,711 a progressive muscle weakness who dreams of launching this musical carnival game 256 00:17:25,744 --> 00:17:26,945 called Wonder Haven. 257 00:17:26,979 --> 00:17:31,784 When the pandemic hits, it halts the contest, and the characters 258 00:17:31,784 --> 00:17:35,854 are forced to decide, do they want to continue this contest? 259 00:17:35,888 --> 00:17:41,093 And so they end up in Wonder Haven in some fashion, this world 260 00:17:41,126 --> 00:17:43,262 that Lis has created. 261 00:17:43,295 --> 00:17:47,566 And the key question that it's asking is, how can we let the light in 262 00:17:47,566 --> 00:17:49,835 and keep our dreams alive? 263 00:17:49,868 --> 00:17:55,007 And that is what I'm also exploring as a alternate title is how the light gets in. 264 00:17:55,007 --> 00:17:57,342 So that's another thing that I'm playing with. 265 00:17:57,376 --> 00:18:05,117 And I'll just say really quickly to sum this project, we secured $65,000 to 266 00:18:05,117 --> 00:18:10,656 produce a proof of concept in Baltimore, working with Open Circle Theater. 267 00:18:10,689 --> 00:18:16,061 They're a disability-led theater in the DC Metro area. 268 00:18:16,095 --> 00:18:20,232 We were able to do this proof of concept. 269 00:18:20,265 --> 00:18:25,804 This will evolve into a full hybrid production through '27, we're thinking. 270 00:18:25,804 --> 00:18:28,240 Musicals take a long time to get to stage. 271 00:18:28,273 --> 00:18:31,810 The exciting thing is we were It's selected for a Doris Duke 272 00:18:31,844 --> 00:18:36,115 Performing Arts Technology Lab R&D grant. 273 00:18:36,148 --> 00:18:40,619 That means that we are exploring the tech and the accessibility elements for 274 00:18:40,652 --> 00:18:43,222 the project over the next five months. 275 00:18:43,255 --> 00:18:47,893 It's important to me. We'll talk about accessibility specifically and 276 00:18:47,926 --> 00:18:50,262 why that's so important to me personally. 277 00:18:50,295 --> 00:18:54,066 But this is also not just about the concept. 278 00:18:54,099 --> 00:18:58,637 It's so easy to talk to people and go, Wow, look at this cool 279 00:18:58,637 --> 00:19:03,842 virtual lobby that you've created! But I also want to root the story in 280 00:19:03,842 --> 00:19:09,581 centering disability, authentic, making sure that it's an emotionally 281 00:19:09,581 --> 00:19:13,919 driven story and not just an interesting concept. 282 00:19:13,952 --> 00:19:17,222 Then the last thing I'll say is it's developing a model for 283 00:19:17,256 --> 00:19:19,324 radically accessible hybrid theater. 284 00:19:19,358 --> 00:19:21,059 That's the intent of this. 285 00:19:21,093 --> 00:19:25,330 It's fun to be pioneering this new concept. 286 00:19:25,364 --> 00:19:30,836 It's really interesting because working on music 287 00:19:30,869 --> 00:19:35,073 specifically, and trying to work with people who can 288 00:19:35,107 --> 00:19:40,879 find solutions of playing differently, 289 00:19:40,879 --> 00:19:46,985 like teaching children to see music education in another way 290 00:19:46,985 --> 00:19:49,288 and to integrate ASL, 291 00:19:49,321 --> 00:19:55,561 but also to play with the virtual instruments 292 00:19:55,594 --> 00:19:57,829 that could allow to play without touch. 293 00:19:57,863 --> 00:20:02,568 But we are so so far from what 294 00:20:02,601 --> 00:20:05,637 the technology in theater can offer. 295 00:20:05,637 --> 00:20:11,877 It must be fun to think of the new generation of theater where artificial 296 00:20:11,910 --> 00:20:17,482 intelligence or IT could be included, and then we are in the whole universe. 297 00:20:17,482 --> 00:20:19,651 That's what we are doing with your team. 298 00:20:19,918 --> 00:20:22,988 That's what we're striving to do. 299 00:20:22,988 --> 00:20:25,591 I will say, I feel like we have a little ways to go 300 00:20:25,624 --> 00:20:27,092 with accessibility, particularly. 301 00:20:27,125 --> 00:20:28,961 Here's an example. 302 00:20:28,994 --> 00:20:34,967 When we did our proof concept, we got a first-hand look at, okay, most people 303 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:40,639 will log into a website in order to create an avatar, and then they get into 304 00:20:40,672 --> 00:20:44,042 a space that is now the virtual theater. It's just a website. 305 00:20:44,076 --> 00:20:45,944 It's not a whole new app. 306 00:20:45,978 --> 00:20:51,750 However, if you are low vision or blind, you may need a screen reader. 307 00:20:51,783 --> 00:20:56,088 Well, how much of this is keyboard-based versus mouse? 308 00:20:56,121 --> 00:20:59,224 What can the screen reader read and do? 309 00:20:59,224 --> 00:21:04,396 How efficient? How can you navigate these areas? 310 00:21:04,429 --> 00:21:06,765 That's just one example. 311 00:21:06,765 --> 00:21:11,470 Then within the platform itself, are there ways that we can use, 312 00:21:11,470 --> 00:21:18,510 not saying haptics, but all kinds of different tools for immersive? 313 00:21:18,543 --> 00:21:22,381 There's so many great things happening, and we get an opportunity to work with 314 00:21:22,381 --> 00:21:28,220 XR Access, which is a consortium out of Cornell, to be a consultant on this. 315 00:21:28,253 --> 00:21:32,290 I'm really excited by that because they work with with disability, specifically 316 00:21:32,324 --> 00:21:37,696 with XR and mixed reality and AR, all these terms that are in relation 317 00:21:37,729 --> 00:21:43,602 to the VR world without necessarily having to have VR glasses on. 318 00:21:43,602 --> 00:21:49,441 There's a lot, like you say, it's opening up in an interesting way. 319 00:21:49,474 --> 00:21:52,544 But I also say, so one of the most exciting things for me 320 00:21:52,544 --> 00:21:55,580 was my participation was by robot. 321 00:21:55,614 --> 00:22:01,386 I'm reimagining access in different ways than just traditional 322 00:22:01,420 --> 00:22:04,790 when we think of the physical access. 323 00:22:04,823 --> 00:22:06,525 Obviously, we think of digital access. 324 00:22:06,558 --> 00:22:08,260 We'll talk about what accessibility means. 325 00:22:08,293 --> 00:22:14,499 But for me, that also is expanding it because I couldn't be there. 326 00:22:14,533 --> 00:22:18,170 Now people people like me as a behind the scenes, so to speak, as a playwright 327 00:22:18,203 --> 00:22:21,139 or a designer, can participate. 328 00:22:21,173 --> 00:22:26,078 I did that for our whole production for two weeks by robot. 329 00:22:26,111 --> 00:22:28,647 That means I was able to control the robot from home. 330 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:34,686 I'm able to navigate in the space differently than just say, relegated to 331 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:36,221 a Zoom square in the corner. 332 00:22:36,321 --> 00:22:37,756 It's amazing. 333 00:22:37,789 --> 00:22:39,791 It's amazing, yeah. 334 00:22:39,825 --> 00:22:43,695 It's a good segue to this question, what does accessibility 335 00:22:43,729 --> 00:22:45,864 in the arts mean for you? 336 00:22:46,298 --> 00:22:47,833 Yeah. 337 00:22:47,866 --> 00:22:53,105 In general, I believe that it means everybody, regardless of ability, 338 00:22:53,138 --> 00:22:58,376 can create and experience and enjoy art fully and without barriers. 339 00:22:58,410 --> 00:23:04,783 When we talked what I was sharing a little bit, I think my work is more 340 00:23:04,783 --> 00:23:09,387 on the digital right now side and the inclusive side, making sure 341 00:23:09,387 --> 00:23:12,758 people with disabilities are part of design, et cetera. 342 00:23:12,791 --> 00:23:17,129 But access extends to physical, sensory, and cognitive, 343 00:23:17,162 --> 00:23:20,999 and programmatic, all these areas. 344 00:23:21,032 --> 00:23:26,805 In my work, I feel like my advocacy has been around... 345 00:23:26,805 --> 00:23:31,076 I've been a passionate artist, and I've worked extensively as advocate in the 346 00:23:31,109 --> 00:23:34,479 chronic illness communities since 2018. 347 00:23:34,513 --> 00:23:40,118 So my take is like, I'm ensuring that people with chronic illness can 348 00:23:40,152 --> 00:23:42,687 have access to arts in different ways. 349 00:23:42,687 --> 00:23:47,959 When I launched, like I say, a light in the darkness that I was talking about. 350 00:23:47,993 --> 00:23:52,597 I collaborated with 50 artists, and I produced live multimedia events. 351 00:23:52,631 --> 00:23:58,103 I hosted an online summit in June of 2020 called How to Thrive with Chronic Illness 352 00:23:58,136 --> 00:24:04,409 that had 1,800 participants after a year of videoing interviews with experts that 353 00:24:04,442 --> 00:24:07,546 I recorded from home and many from bed. 354 00:24:07,579 --> 00:24:11,082 This is all stuff that I'm doing as somebody living with chronic illness 355 00:24:11,082 --> 00:24:13,919 to help others in my community thrive. 356 00:24:13,952 --> 00:24:18,657 Then I've also engaged with disabled communities over 357 00:24:18,690 --> 00:24:21,460 the Grieving Project as the audiobook. 358 00:24:21,493 --> 00:24:26,164 I have a support group that is part of my own illness community 359 00:24:26,198 --> 00:24:30,035 called Myocytis Support and Understanding, where I ran workshops. 360 00:24:30,068 --> 00:24:35,607 I've been able to work with theater company for a virtual reading 361 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,343 where I cast disabled actors. 362 00:24:38,376 --> 00:24:43,949 I've worked with Open Circle Theater on accessibility-driven virtual 363 00:24:43,982 --> 00:24:46,284 workshops, and even my work in RAMPD. 364 00:24:46,284 --> 00:24:49,321 RAMPD is Recording Artists and Music Professionals with Disabilities. 365 00:24:49,354 --> 00:24:53,458 Diane knows because she's a professional member of RAMPD, too. 366 00:24:53,491 --> 00:24:56,494 I was Secretary and Engagement Coach here. 367 00:24:56,528 --> 00:25:00,699 Even before that, I was working on partnerships to help make 368 00:25:00,732 --> 00:25:02,767 the Grammys more accessible. 369 00:25:02,767 --> 00:25:06,771 A lot of my work actually is around access in different ways 370 00:25:06,805 --> 00:25:12,377 than I would have ever thought that access is actually happening. 371 00:25:12,410 --> 00:25:16,181 Then directly in my project, in the Grieving Project, 372 00:25:16,214 --> 00:25:20,418 it is disability-led, created for, by, with people with disabilities, 373 00:25:20,452 --> 00:25:22,988 with rooted in accessibility. 374 00:25:22,988 --> 00:25:25,090 We hired a accessibility director. 375 00:25:25,123 --> 00:25:28,660 We had a director of artistic sign language. 376 00:25:28,693 --> 00:25:33,198 We had the basic, when I would say basic, like assistive devices, 377 00:25:33,231 --> 00:25:34,766 if people need it, et cetera. 378 00:25:34,799 --> 00:25:40,372 But then beyond that, as I was saying, we were trying to figure out how 379 00:25:40,372 --> 00:25:46,344 do we really include everyone from the top of this project, 380 00:25:46,344 --> 00:25:51,750 from building in access rather than thinking about access as an afterthought. 381 00:25:51,783 --> 00:25:56,855 That's the key for our project is we say, Hey, 382 00:25:56,855 --> 00:25:59,658 access extends to all aspects 383 00:25:59,691 --> 00:26:02,727 of the project and all people, including me. 384 00:26:02,727 --> 00:26:06,331 We're not thinking just our audiences. 385 00:26:06,464 --> 00:26:11,136 What has been fabulous in this initiative to work with the Grammys 386 00:26:11,169 --> 00:26:13,238 is that they were responding. 387 00:26:13,271 --> 00:26:20,312 They were actually listening which is rare for big organizations that are like, 388 00:26:20,345 --> 00:26:24,282 Oh, no, we have to accessibilize our thing again. 389 00:26:24,282 --> 00:26:25,350 No, not at all. 390 00:26:25,383 --> 00:26:27,419 They were like, Okay, these people are awesome. 391 00:26:27,452 --> 00:26:29,321 Let's listen to them. 392 00:26:29,354 --> 00:26:32,090 Yeah, Yes, but Diane, and. Oh, yes, and that. 393 00:26:32,123 --> 00:26:36,027 And accessibility is good for everyone. 394 00:26:36,061 --> 00:26:39,097 And that is something that we're starting to really... 395 00:26:39,130 --> 00:26:41,199 That message is coming across. 396 00:26:41,232 --> 00:26:45,003 I've heard it touted many times of curb cuts. 397 00:26:45,003 --> 00:26:48,073 That initially it might have been for wheelchairs. 398 00:26:48,106 --> 00:26:54,412 But people who have babies in strollers, moms with babies in strollers, use them. 399 00:26:54,446 --> 00:26:59,684 So in other words, if we create accessible experiences, 400 00:26:59,684 --> 00:27:01,486 then We're doing it for more. 401 00:27:01,519 --> 00:27:06,358 In my project, my priority, my focus is people with 402 00:27:06,358 --> 00:27:07,792 chronic illness and disabilities. 403 00:27:07,826 --> 00:27:13,565 And yet I know that it's going to speak to economic, it's going 404 00:27:13,598 --> 00:27:16,768 to speak to geography, people who can't get to theater for that, 405 00:27:16,768 --> 00:27:20,705 for people who have problems with physical access at theaters. 406 00:27:20,705 --> 00:27:24,843 So there's different communities that we're going to be able to serve. 407 00:27:24,843 --> 00:27:28,079 And of course, since it's online, we're talking worldwide now. 408 00:27:28,113 --> 00:27:31,016 So this is exciting It's exciting to me. 409 00:27:31,049 --> 00:27:36,521 I'm not saying we're the first at all to be creating hybrid theater by any means, 410 00:27:36,554 --> 00:27:42,460 but I don't see a lot of hybrid theater creating full musicals in a metaverse 411 00:27:42,494 --> 00:27:44,462 style, like a virtual environment. 412 00:27:44,462 --> 00:27:48,266 I also don't see it that's rooted in disability. 413 00:27:48,299 --> 00:27:52,837 That's what I feel like our advantage or whatever we call it 414 00:27:52,871 --> 00:27:55,507 that we can bring to the table. 415 00:27:55,740 --> 00:27:57,108 Absolutely. 416 00:27:57,342 --> 00:27:59,144 Well, this is fantastic. 417 00:27:59,144 --> 00:28:02,180 Congratulations because it's really huge. 418 00:28:02,213 --> 00:28:07,619 Even if it's just a proof of concept right now, everything you've accomplished 419 00:28:07,652 --> 00:28:12,157 so far with this team, it's great. 420 00:28:12,157 --> 00:28:13,692 Thank you. 421 00:28:13,725 --> 00:28:16,461 I have a last question for you. 422 00:28:16,494 --> 00:28:23,101 It's about people who might have impacted you in your career or inspired you. 423 00:28:23,134 --> 00:28:27,405 If you had to think of one or two people who really counted in the progression 424 00:28:27,439 --> 00:28:30,008 of your career, who would it be and why? 425 00:28:31,109 --> 00:28:31,943 Yeah. 426 00:28:31,976 --> 00:28:37,916 Honestly, right now, because I wasn't necessarily thinking of the past so much, 427 00:28:37,949 --> 00:28:40,618 is the present, and that is Lachi. 428 00:28:40,652 --> 00:28:47,859 So RAMPD has at its helm, the definition of a rock star, in my opinion. 429 00:28:47,892 --> 00:28:49,761 She's the founder of RAMPD. 430 00:28:49,794 --> 00:28:55,967 She was the past president for the times that I served alongside her for a while. 431 00:28:55,967 --> 00:28:59,504 And I've served alongside her while she was president. 432 00:28:59,537 --> 00:29:03,975 And so I've gotten to know her monthly, through monthly meetings, 433 00:29:04,008 --> 00:29:06,544 et cetera, as well as different ways. 434 00:29:06,578 --> 00:29:11,750 Watching her lead and grow RAMPD while skyrocketing her own career 435 00:29:11,783 --> 00:29:14,119 has been very motivating and empowering. 436 00:29:14,119 --> 00:29:17,822 She gives all of us a platform to rise and shine. 437 00:29:17,856 --> 00:29:21,059 She shines her light brightly in everything she does. 438 00:29:21,092 --> 00:29:25,563 She's this exceptional leader, and she's a staunch, tireless advocate 439 00:29:25,563 --> 00:29:27,966 and uber talented artist. 440 00:29:27,966 --> 00:29:34,806 She promotes disability advocacy work while excelling in her own career. 441 00:29:34,806 --> 00:29:37,542 To me, it's like she elevates disability culture, 442 00:29:37,542 --> 00:29:42,247 fights for authentic representation, and promotes identity pride. 443 00:29:42,247 --> 00:29:48,386 I have had this excellent role model and shows me, let's put it this way, 444 00:29:48,419 --> 00:29:52,624 when I first was on the fence about how 445 00:29:52,624 --> 00:29:55,927 I personally felt as a disabled artist, 446 00:29:55,927 --> 00:29:58,596 I was still using differently able. 447 00:29:58,630 --> 00:30:02,200 I was still using terms like that because 448 00:30:02,233 --> 00:30:05,837 I had a community who thought that dis 449 00:30:05,870 --> 00:30:12,210 meant different, separate in a negative way, not necessarily in a way that was like, 450 00:30:12,210 --> 00:30:14,612 Hey, we should celebrate this. This is part of us. 451 00:30:14,646 --> 00:30:16,114 We're cool. 452 00:30:16,147 --> 00:30:22,086 We bring problem solving in all these different ways because not despite. 453 00:30:22,287 --> 00:30:24,389 I always think of that. 454 00:30:24,422 --> 00:30:27,425 I don't know if I got that from Lachi, but that feeling 455 00:30:27,425 --> 00:30:30,828 for me is because not despite. 456 00:30:30,862 --> 00:30:38,336 She's bold and unapologetic, and she makes disability visibility a priority. 457 00:30:38,369 --> 00:30:43,274 It doesn't matter whether she's performing or speaking to somebody at the White House 458 00:30:43,274 --> 00:30:46,744 or on a call with RAMPD members. 459 00:30:46,778 --> 00:30:51,783 Everywhere that I've been able to experience what she brings 460 00:30:51,816 --> 00:30:54,052 has been very empowering. 461 00:30:54,085 --> 00:30:56,688 If you use the word inspiration with her, she might shoot you. 462 00:30:56,688 --> 00:31:02,493 She always says, and this is fascinating, It's interesting to me because I have 463 00:31:02,527 --> 00:31:06,331 affiliated myself with inspiration, muse. 464 00:31:06,364 --> 00:31:10,134 I'm the one who's supposed to inspire in my head as my artist persona. 465 00:31:10,168 --> 00:31:16,307 And that extended into my life, which made it hard to grieve in some ways 466 00:31:16,341 --> 00:31:21,646 because I'm always supposed to be the positive one and not be. 467 00:31:21,679 --> 00:31:25,717 So for her, an inspiration, we had a conversation once that 468 00:31:25,750 --> 00:31:30,088 it's about, what do I inspire you to do? 469 00:31:30,121 --> 00:31:31,089 To act? 470 00:31:31,122 --> 00:31:33,925 And so that's where she wants to be affiliated 471 00:31:33,958 --> 00:31:36,327 with inspiration in some fashion. 472 00:31:36,361 --> 00:31:40,064 But a lot of people in the disability world have this whole thing about 473 00:31:40,064 --> 00:31:45,169 "disability porn," meaning just because somebody gets out of bed and gets to 474 00:31:45,203 --> 00:31:47,872 the store, don't mean that's inspiring. 475 00:31:47,905 --> 00:31:49,340 That's just what they do. 476 00:31:49,374 --> 00:31:53,478 And I'm saying it facetiously because it's true. 477 00:31:53,511 --> 00:31:57,815 Even my director has shared an experience about her pumping gas 478 00:31:57,849 --> 00:32:00,184 while in a wheelchair, and that being something 479 00:32:00,184 --> 00:32:04,222 that somebody else had to comment on as very inspiring. 480 00:32:04,255 --> 00:32:09,227 Now, I know that some of these people are well-intentioned. 481 00:32:09,260 --> 00:32:13,197 They are not meaning harm to Susie in this case. 482 00:32:13,231 --> 00:32:15,466 They just don't know. 483 00:32:16,067 --> 00:32:18,069 I don't know. 484 00:32:18,069 --> 00:32:21,339 We could have a conversation for 40 more minutes on this. 485 00:32:21,372 --> 00:32:22,240 Yeah, for sure. 486 00:32:22,273 --> 00:32:25,043 But speaking of conversation, it comes with the conversation. 487 00:32:25,043 --> 00:32:26,744 It comes with the communication. 488 00:32:26,778 --> 00:32:27,679 It comes with... 489 00:32:27,712 --> 00:32:31,849 I'm a wheelchair user, so I have that a lot. 490 00:32:31,883 --> 00:32:35,486 People come to me and say, Oh, you're so inspiring. 491 00:32:35,486 --> 00:32:43,027 That's the way people have been taught to see disability. 492 00:32:43,227 --> 00:32:46,698 Now, how to change the narrative, how to change the education, 493 00:32:46,731 --> 00:32:51,803 and how to change the non-intentional 494 00:32:51,836 --> 00:32:55,840 behavior, it's by speaking with people. 495 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,177 I constantly, constantly have that. 496 00:32:59,210 --> 00:33:01,946 Yes, I can imagine. 497 00:33:01,980 --> 00:33:05,683 And, yes, and that, for me, I'm okay with being inspirational, 498 00:33:05,683 --> 00:33:12,390 not because I'm disabled, but because something I'm doing is giving somebody 499 00:33:12,390 --> 00:33:14,692 an impact of some sort. 500 00:33:14,726 --> 00:33:17,128 And Lachi does that for me. 501 00:33:17,161 --> 00:33:21,232 So yes, she does motivate me sometimes to act, and that's what she's about. 502 00:33:21,265 --> 00:33:22,767 That's where the inspiration comes in. 503 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:26,637 So yes, if somebody says, Wow, you're really inspirational, 504 00:33:26,637 --> 00:33:29,007 that's okay for my artist identity. 505 00:33:29,007 --> 00:33:35,279 It may not be okay my disability identity, but it's okay for me personally. 506 00:33:35,313 --> 00:33:37,181 That's just where I'm at. 507 00:33:37,348 --> 00:33:40,485 I'm sure you're going to be a role model for someone 508 00:33:40,518 --> 00:33:43,688 who's listening or seeing your work. 509 00:33:43,855 --> 00:33:46,624 Yeah, that's great. 510 00:33:46,657 --> 00:33:48,126 Well, thank you so much. 511 00:33:48,159 --> 00:33:51,629 It was great talking about all your fascinating projects 512 00:33:51,662 --> 00:33:56,034 and really best of luck for everything. 513 00:33:56,067 --> 00:33:57,068 Thank you for having me. 514 00:33:57,068 --> 00:33:59,170 I just love what you're doing. 515 00:33:59,203 --> 00:34:04,675 I'm so glad that you're here to share, uplift, promote artists. 516 00:34:04,709 --> 00:34:07,712 It's a great opportunity. Thank you. 517 00:34:07,745 --> 00:34:09,247 Thank you so much. 518 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,583 Talk soon in another project. 519 00:34:12,817 --> 00:34:14,185 Have a great day.. 520 00:34:14,685 --> 00:34:19,824 ♪ Closing theme music ♪