♪ Opening theme music ♪
Hello, and welcome to this episode of ArtsAbly in Conversation.
My name is Diane Kolin.
This series presents artists, academics, and project leaders who dedicate their
time and energy to a better accessibility for people with disabilities in the arts.
You can find more of these conversations on our website, artsably.com,
which is spelled A-R-T-S-A-B-L-Y dot com.
♪ Theme music ♪
Today, ArtsAbly is in conversation with Reverend Chris Wylie,
aka DJ Pastor Rock, a musician, songwriter, vocalist, and pastor
living in Buffalo, New York.
You can find the resources mentioned by Chris Wylie during this episode
on ArtsAbly's website in the blog section.
♪ DJ Pastor Rock sings "Bringing fire" ♪
Here comes the terror brought
Brought on like a storm
Dropping these rhymes like
You ain't heard before.
You think you're in power,
yeah, you think you're legit?
I'm here to tell you
Words aren't worth.
Bringing fire, bringing fire,
your time is done.
Sound the alarm and get ready to run.
Flipping over tables,
I'm on the hunt.
Your rain is over,
There's a new day begun.
I'm bringing fire, fire, fire.
Bringing fire, bringing fire,
That's what I said.
Building your empire,
Stepping on the dead,
But you're just another giant,
and I'm David slinging stones.
Got to hit the ground, that's how this story goes.
Bringing fire, bringing fire,
Your time is done.
Sound the alarm and get ready to run.
Flipping over tables, I'm on the hunt.
Your rain is over, there's a new day begun.
I'm bringing fire, fire, fire.
An imperfect body, but I'm still down.
If you keep others out, I ain't messing around.
Hanging on the margins, I'm here and I'm proud.
Build me a ramp or I'll burn you to the ground.
I'm bringing fire, fire, fire.
I'm bringing fire, fire, fire, fire, fire.
Bringing fire, bringing fire all over the earth.
If you come any closer, you're gonna get burned.
Cranking up the heat a couple hundred degrees.
Holy flame thrower clear your eyes and you'll see.
Bringing fire, bringing fire, your time is done.
Sound the alarm and get ready to run.
Flipping over tables, I'm on the hunt.
Your reign is over, there's a new day begun.
I'm bringing fire. Welcome to this new episode
♪ A firetruck siren marks the end of "Bringing fire" ♪
Welcome to this new episode of ArtsAbly in Conversation.
Today, I am with Reverend Chris Wyle,
aka DJ Pastor Rock, who is a musician,
a songwriter, a vocalist, and a pastor
living in Buffalo, New York. Welcome, Chris.
Hi, Diane. It's great to be here with you today.
Thank you for being here.
Okay, so I always start episodes by asking about background.
So what about yours?
What brought you to music?
What brought you to everything you're doing as an activist in life?
Thank you.
Sure.
As you said, my name is Reverend Chris Wylie, DJ Pastor Rock, and I'm
a disabled queer wheelchair-using person
The thing that really brought me to music? I think community,
being a young disabled kid growing up
in in the '70s and really '80s by the time
I was entering my teens and things,
There was some exclusion,
and there were some things where society really didn't
try really so hard to include disabled people
the way that sometimes they do now.
So it was feeling a little bit on the outside, and...
But music was the one thing
that people couldn't take away from me.
So I had met some friends who were also
a little bit outsiders, and we just
started making music together.
I started a little bit on the bass, guitar, and then quickly
after that started playing drums, which is my main instrument
or was my main instrument for a long time.
And I've played that for maybe 40 years, a little over, a long time.
And now I am playing bass again, too.
So I've come back to where I started.
So I started doing that and then just
going through and playing in bands, like in high school and
college and things.
And then along the way, got involved in some...
I went to school for broadcasting to do radio and things like that.
But I did some twists and turns and done a few other things.
I've done corporate things. You just interviewed Deshaymond, and they talked about
their work in the corporate world. I did that.
I was in banking for a long time and then advertising and a pastor,
as we've already touched on.
So I've done a lot of those things
and then found my body, as I've gotten older,
has become a little bit more disabled.
And some of the things, just simple things, like
getting in and out of people's houses became more of a challenge and stuff.
And I found my way back into music.
And so that's what brings me here.
I started writing and recording my own music and things, which is
something that I wanted to do from back in the day, but it was a process.
We didn't have the technology that we have now and all kinds of things.
So there's a lot of layers to that story.
So what's your musical style?
My musical style, I make
justice-oriented hip hop and rock
with accessible pop hooks.
That's my catch phrase.
It's like there's so many influences, again, growing up in the early days of
rap and things like that with Public Enemy and some of those things.
That's a big influence because they were talking about their experience.
And a lot of it is centered on liberation, which is a big thing for me.
And so that is definitely an influence there, but also rock.
But then one thing that I think is always funny where
I mentioned the accessible pop hooks.
If people don't want to listen to your music, what's the point?
So I always add layers in.
And I was really influenced a lot by people like
Stevie Wonder - it came up on your recent podcast - and like
Songs in the Key of Life is a great album,
and Madonna, and Janet Jackson and
some of those people just making, again, the music accessible, making it so
people want to listen, catchy.
But like style-wise, I go all over.
A little bit of rap, a little bit of rock.
I'm working on a blues Americana album right now.
I also play a little harmonica and things.
So, yeah.
Catchy, but I think one of the things that you have in your music, too,
is that since you're an activist, in many ways, you are a disability rights
activist, you are an access activist,
you are a parenting disability activist.
So all this activism comes into your artistic practice, too, right?
For sure, that's true.
I've done a lot of things like the Kairos Center in New York City,
I'm part of their artist collective and poor people's campaigns.
So a lot of justice for me, a lot of things go back to, not even a lot
of things, almost everything to me goes back to justice and inclusion.
I can only really tell my story as a disabled queer artist,
but I also recognize that other people have been historically
marginalized and that their stories have value and need to be here, too.
And I'm not here to tell their story, but I'm here to help create space for
them to be able to also tell their story.
So I think a lot of that is reflected in my music.
But again, when you hear my music, there's always that theme
of justice and inclusion.
But mostly, I hope you hear my story.
You're hearing me tell it from my perspective of what I go through,
what my daily life is, the obstacles that I have to overcome.
And while it's easy to get stuck there on that side of the justice side
and say, look how bad it is.
I always try to have an arc.
This is where my pastor side comes out.
I always think that in the end, love is what I think rises above all of that.
So I think I always try to go from
that side of things, the side of exclusion
toward inclusion, but also to community.
And I've had so many people in my life really be able
to have conversations with me and be willing to work with me and so on.
I mean, that's all part of it, too, is like,
yeah, we need to fight and work for
access and inclusion and justice and liberation, but don't forget the love.
For sure.
Speaking of community, We are both part of one community,
which is special to both of us,
called RAMPD, recording artists and music professionals with disabilities.
Can you talk a bit about how you got into RAMPD
and what's your role in RAMPD today?
Yes, I'm on the Partnerships Committee.
I was the recent past co-chair, but I'm also the treasurer of RAMPD,
which is where I get to use a little bit of my banking background and things.
I was in commercial finance and things like that for a long time.
So that's helpful.
So yeah, I'm, as you said, a professional member of RAMPD.
I'm the treasurer, I'm on the Partnerships Committee.
and that has opened up doors to
a whole bunch of other things.
And it's a great space.
Now, how I got involved, I had gotten to know Gaelynn Lea a little bit, who is
one of the cofounders along with Lachi.
And now I see Lachi all the time, but I didn't know Lachi back then,
but I knew Gaelynn, and I knew Gaelynn was working on something,
and I wanted to know what it was.
I'm like, Gaelynn, what are you working on? Gaelynn, what are you working on?
Because I mentioned just earlier in the interview at the beginning,
exclusion and all that that I faced when I was a young person coming up.
And that's one of the things that I love so much about RAMPD is
that it's helping to amplify and lift up disability culture
and create opportunities for disabled artists and others
to be involved in the music industry
and help clear some of those hurdles,
help build those ramps that maybe I didn't have.
And I think that's what's really important to me.
I can't go back, but I can help try to make somebody else's path
a little bit smoother going forward.
So it's a win-win.
I get to do the things I'm doing, but I to help other people along the way.
But yeah, a lot of that started with my relationship with Gaelynn Lee,
who is amazing and wonderful, a great person and a really great,
talented musician as well.
Yes, she is.
A lot of musicians I know from this community are really amazing in
sharing their stories and also trying to connect and help each other, which I really...
We don't see that every day in life.
So it's really appreciative.
I think we know what it's like to be on the outside a lot of times,
to have to do the extra work that sometimes we have to do.
We always have a little bit more to do, even on our good days,
even when people are trying, because we have to think about accessibility
and we have to think about how we're going to be able to make things work in a way
that non-disabled people don't really have to think about.
I often say We live in a world not built to include us.
So it's getting better. People are trying.
We're moving forward.
But we all know that - You and I are both wheelchair users.
So we know what that's like to be rolling around and to have difficulty
getting in a building or, Oh, here's a flight of stairs or something.
We know all of those things, and we know where things
have maybe been difficult for us.
So I feel like we also work together
to say, Hey, it becomes more than just
about yourself, but again, about that community, about each other.
So we're all doing our own things and trying to keep those things going.
But also we're in it for each other because
when one of us succeeds, we all succeed.
And I think that's a really beautiful thing.
And also, just as a side note, thinking about all the people
I've met from RAMPD, including you, who knew there were so many of us?
It's amazing to see all these beautiful, wonderful, talented people.
Yeah, for sure.
Also, I think by seeing, as you say, by seeing the successes that
happen all around us, we meet frequently and we cheer for each other.
I think it pulls up to higher levels.
We really wanted to - Okay, so that gives me an idea.
Or when they connect us and say, Oh, by the way, this person is willing
to work with you and do that.
And that I find it's really an amazing community of musicians.
It is amazing.
I was just out in Vancouver for the Vancouver Film Festival.
I was part of the Amp program, which is a program to also help create
opportunities and build connections for marginalized musicians
and filmmakers and composers and such.
And that happened through RAMPD.
So again, those opportunities to just do really great things,
that was my opportunity be out.
But also while I was there, I was like, RAMPD, RAMPD, RAMPD, RAMPD, RAMPD.
Every other word, I think, and talking about it and sharing all those things.
So that was amazing, too.
You just came back from Vancouver, and you told me that
you are working on a new album right now.
Can you give us more details?
I am, yeah.
I just came back from Vancouver, again, the film festival, and
doing my things out there, which was incredible.
Great opportunity and met so many amazing people who are doing amazing things.
We have Tony Scudellari, who is
the person who is one of the people
who started the Amp program, is also one of the people who are
on the Board of Advisors for RAMPD.
So that is a great connection.
And then I was in New York City just before that.
But before and during and amidst all that, and that's the fun of music, right?
Also working on an album that's a blues-based album, which is a little bit
different for me, but maybe a pocket that I'll settle in for a little while.
I think there's some opportunities there.
And plus it's fun.
I get to do the things like play harmonica a little bit and other things.
So I'm working on this album and trying to have a little bit more of a wide feel
to the work, maybe not quite so polished as some of the other things.
And again, I know your past guest who I've already mentioned, Deshaymond,
touched on that, just leave a little bit of the flavor in there.
And so working on that, I just released, just because I was in a rush, I wanted to
get it out for the film festival.
There was a song called Underway that I just released.
And again, that was just telling my story as a disabled person
trying to navigate the world and things, and that's part of that project.
So I'm working on that. It's a little early.
I just finished a punk album with my band moshcats!.
So I always got something cooking.
I'm out here doing my thing.
Very good. That's bubbling projects.
It's great.
Ok so I have a question about what accessibility
in the arts, which is really what we try
to promote and try to show that it's a
possibility in our life to do some music.
For me, it's a mix between disability arts
or crip culture sometimes, things
like that, which is - I like the notion
of trying to punch in the face
some notions that people have.
Accessibility arts is one.
What does it mean for you to really work in that environment where
we promote accessibility in the arts?
You're really speaking my language here now, for sure.
You know what I mean?
Liberation, again, is how I always phrase it.
And you're doing something that's countercultural.
Inclusion and love itself, though, is countercultural.
It's punk.
That's how the punk album came to be.
People might think punk is something that it isn't, but mostly punk is about
taking systems, usually of inequity, and flipping those tables around.
And I think that's what accessibility in
the arts really means to me is that,
hopefully people want to work with us.
A lot of people do want to work with us, but in those times that they don't maybe
want to work with us quite so readily, we're going to push
the door open a little bit on them and we're going to come in anyway.
But again, I think I'd rather focus still
on the community and the love.
I think that's where accessibility in the arts really makes a difference.
You have people outside, but there's all these voices, right?
And promoting accessibility in the arts.
I think it's really important for us to each have our story, a space
where we can each tell our story and share our experience.
When I think about accessibility in the arts
and what that means to me, I really think about our collective
humanity, and how, when one of our stories aren't being heard,
when we don't have the space to share, our story, our collective story,
our universal story is incomplete.
So when I think about accessibility in the arts, that's what it means to me.
It's just just flipping around
the tables that say, only the people
in the center of the narrative will have their story told.
Only the people at the top get all the resources.
But to flip that around and say it's our collective journey,
it's our collective experience.
Because I think when any of our experiences, any of our stories
are left incomplete or out, then our collective story, again, is incomplete.
And that's what I think about when I think about accessibility in the arts.
It's just a better telling of our story.
If I were writing a play,
it would be like if I only have
like scene one in the movie might be the story that most people hear.
But you need the other two acts in the story to make it complete.
And that's bringing in all these other voices,
bringing all of our other experiences in.
And so, again, that's to me, that's what I think about when I think
about accessibility in the arts.
It's just a more complete telling of our story.
I like also the aspect of teaching
younger kids because these younger kids
not only will learn themselves how to give their voice and how
to express themselves about anything.
It could be about their own identity, it could be about a disability, it could
be about a relationship to others.
But when you start small and you're guided in that, then your voice,
and your voice as a child is as important as a voice as an adult.
Really to push them and to accompany them.
Then if you do it in a way that really
triggers some reflection to the children,
then this will go home with them, and they will be the ones guiding
the adults on important conversations.
Absolutely.
And they become adults later.
And so you're opening up those channels for communication,
for them to be able to have the tools.
That's what I love about your work, to open up the channels and give the tools
provide the tools for them to be able to create and to experience and to be
able to express themselves.
Because I can say things in music that I can't really say or that I might
have difficulty saying without music.
If I put something in a song, it's fuller.
And it's also people hear it in a different way because you put a beat
behind it and you give it a hook and everything.
And you're starting from the beginning with the kids and giving them those tools
and saying, Hey, here this is your world, too, and I want to hear your story.
And there's something really powerful in that because
it's easy to overlook people.
It's particularly easy to overlook children and say, They're just kids.
But when they recognize that you care and that you want to hear them, too,
that's such a powerful motivator.
Like you said, they go home and they tell their parents and they tell others, but
then they grow up and it inspires them.
I mean, I had people help me when I was a younger child and really listened
to me when I was a younger child.
That really changed the way that I look at the world.
It made me say, Well, I had all these people help me and
share with me and help me find my voice.
I want to go and do that for others.
Yeah.
It also comes with the idea of love that you were talking about at the beginning.
Yeah, for sure.
But that is really what I love about your work.
Again, you're starting right at the basics and really saying,
this world can seem so daunting, music can seem so daunting, but really, it isn't.
Really, there's all these opportunities just to sit down and start, and you don't
know where it's going to take you, but it could take you someplace magical.
It can take you amazing, amazing places.
It take you where we're sitting here having a conversation.
A few years ago, we didn't know each other, but now we do.
We're both doing great things, and all that's because of music.
Yeah. And plus, they play.
They have fun.
It's great.
Yeah, and you're right. It should be fun, right?
It's joyful.
If music is not fun, you're doing something wrong.
Okay, so I have a last question for you, and it's about these people
who might have inspired you, impacted you during your musical career.
If you have one or two people to think of, who would it be and why?
That's a hard question to answer because there's so many people.
I can tell you about my influences early on.
I got involved in recording studio work
back in the early 1990s.
That was where I went from just playing drums, trying to early write and record
my own stuff and try to figure that journey out and get involved in that.
So my friend in Buffalo Music Hall of Fame, Geno McManus,
was a huge influence there.
But also just well-known musicians
like Johnny Cash, like Brian Wilson
of the Beach Boys, like George Martin, who did the Beatles work
and everything and all that.
But then I also think about the people who have impacted me along the way and who
have helped me really explore and
build my own music and how that happened.
I have a really close friend, MC Lars, who's an amazing person, and I met him
outside of a show where he was
part of a show of a band that was like
an old ska punk band, and he's a rapper.
But we started having a conversation, and he was like, Write what you know.
That was early.
And then there's another friend, Sam Baker, who's
an amazing disabled musician also.
I said, I happen to be able to sit down with him also
at one of his shows one day.
And I said, I have all these ideas, but I'm having trouble
bringing them into life.
How do I do that as a disabled musician?
And he said something really simple.
I use Logic now as my DAW to be able to write and record.
And I use different programs, but also live instruments and things, too.
But he said, I just use GarageBand, which is like the free version
of the recording software from Apple.
And so we had a conversation about that, and that was a huge influence on me.
And Gaelynn Lea, who I already mentioned, again, a huge influence on me.
Mary Gauthier, another queer artist who's not disabled that I know of,
but is an adoptee, and that's part of my story, too.
And so her work and being able
to encounter her and then
just so many other people who I've worked with along the way.
But again, and Lachi. Lachi comes up, right?
For a lot of us in RAMPD.
It's Gaelynn and Lachi, but so many others, like you, the work
you're doing is an inspiration to me. It really is.
It's amazing. I love it.
And Precious Perez.
And Namel TapWaterz Norris.
There's so many people.
I could just go on. James Ian.
I could just name everybody in RAMPD, I think.
Just, again, being able to be around and share and see those cool things.
Sometimes you get to have these conversations and say,
how can we work together? Or how can we share?
Or what can we do?
Or what are you doing?
And then it gives an idea.
It sparks an idea.
I've seen you use different things and say, I don't have that,
but I do have this.
And so how can I make this work to be able
to do some of those things and all that? It's really cool.
Well, thank you so much for this conversation.
I learned a lot of different things.
I knew you in some aspects, but there are some aspects
that really it's always a pleasure to talk about when we get together.
So, yeah, thank you so much.
Diane, so good to be with you. Thank you.
Well, have a great day and talk soon..
♪ Closing theme music ♪