♪ Opening theme music ♪
Hello, and welcome to this episode of ArtsAbly in Conversation.
My name is Diane Kolin.
This series presents artists, academics, and project leaders who dedicate their
time and energy to a better accessibility for people with disabilities in the arts.
You can find more of these conversations on our website, artsably.com
which is spelled A-R-T-S-A-B-L-Y dot com
♪ Theme music ♪
Today, ArtsAbly is in conversation with Lawrence Shapiro,
the first above-knee amputee dancer to lead dance performances in Canada.
You can find the resources mentioned by Lawrence Shapiro during this interview
on ArtsAbly's website in the blog section.
Hello, Lawrence. Welcome to ArtsAbly in Conversation.
Hello, Diane. Thank you for this opportunity.
Thank you so much for being here. [Lawrence in French] Bonjour.
[Diane in French] Bonjour. [Lawrence in French] Je vous parle français.
[Lawrence] Malheureusement je parle pas français.
I'm not sure we're going to do the interview in French today.
[Lawrence] Okay, so we'll stick with English. [Diane] I think so.
So I know that you are one of the unique dancers in Canada
who are doing what you're doing in dance.
Yes, I am a validated deaf and disability artist with the Canada Council for the Arts.
And I believe I'm probably one of the few amputee dancers in Canada.
I'm sure they're more than me, but there's not a whole lot
of us out there, I don't believe, who have a really high visibility.
So I'd like to think I have a visibility.
I've been doing this for about 20 years now.
So yeah, that's my title -
I'm a deaf and disability artist, and my genre is performance art or dance.
When did you start dancing?
The year was 2005.
I was very unemployed, and I got an email
from an organization in Vancouver, where I was living at the time,
from a group called the Vancouver Society of Disability Arts and Culture.
And they invited me to something that they called a disability dance audition.
And being the less informed person I was at the time,
I thought that disability dance really was for wheelchair users.
And because I wasn't a wheelchair user, I thought I was at a disadvantage.
I didn't think I could contribute because I felt wheelchair user
were much more able to move around the stage faster.
And I thought they had much more motion.
And I didn't understand what role I could play.
And it wasn't until I did the audition and we did the show
that I began to understand that this word dance is not necessarily about motion per se.
It's about performance.
And it's the way you manifest movement
and the way you present yourself to an audience.
So that was my starting point in 2005.
And it's been the most incredible 20 years.
I just cannot believe all that I've achieved.
What did you do before 2005?
I was trying to make a documentary film about disabled women in Vietnam.
I lived in Vietnam for many years.
I was with an organization called World University Service of Canada.
And what I wanted to do was make a documentary.
So I did an internship with the National Film Board.
And interestingly, the man who gave me the invitation for the disability dance audition
was featured in a National Film Board documentary on disabled artists.
And that film was called Shameless.
I did my internship with the producer of the film.
Her name is Tracey Friesen, and it's a terrific film.
Please go check it out.
Shameless.
And it's directed by Bonnie Sherr Klein, and that was a terrific film.
And yes, so I was just looking for more opportunities.
And then I got this [invitation]... It In a million years, I never thought I would be a dancer.
Absolutely never.
Never, ever, ever.
So how did your career evolve after becoming a dancer?
Well, after we did the show, someone in the audience saw,
and they loved it so much, she applied to the United Way to get a grant.
And so she invited me to do dance workshops for children
through the grant that she got at the United Way.
And so this was in Vancouver, and we went around together to different schools and so on.
And I just began to get more re-interested in it.
And then I learned that there was going to be a disability dance conference in Scotland.
And then I submitted an application and they invited me to come speak to it.
But how could I pay for it?
And then my employment counselor said, the words that definitely changed my life,
Check out the Canada Council website.
And that's how I began to learn that there is funding available
for disabled artists in Canada.
So I did that conference.
And then from there, I just kept doing more shows and applying for more grants.
So can you talk a little bit about the shows that you worked on for these years?
I'll start with Toronto.
When I moved back to Toronto in the year 2015,
I applied to the Ontario Arts Council's Deaf and Disability Arts program for funding to do a show,
and I got the funding, and that was just thrilling.
So I worked with a choreographer here in Toronto named Maxine Heppner,
and she brought two able-bodied dancers, and we did a show at
the Daniel Spectrum in Toronto at the Aki Studio Theatre.
And I choose to believe - if I'm wrong, people can correct me,
but I choose to believe I'm the first above-knee amputee dancer ever to lead a show in Canada.
So that was Daniel Spectrum.
That was Daniel Spectrum in 2016.
But the big, big show that I'm so, so proud of was the show
I did in New York City in 2021 at the Give Me Dance Theater.
And not only did I perform in it, I produced it.
I performed and produced it.
So I believe I'm one of the few disabled artists to do that,
Canadian disabled artists to do that in the United States.
So that was Toronto and New York. I think you later -
[Lawrence] There is more. There is more. [Diane] Tell me more.
I'll verbalize my resume.
2018. What a great year.
Did a show in London, England, with a group called the Mickey Dance Theater.
And we did a public installation piece in West London.
And then they invited me back to do a repeat performance
at the town hall in West London, with the local municipal government.
And so I got a grant from the Canada Council to do that.
So that was 2018, and that was absolutely great.
And then, oh, in 2016, three days after I did my show, I was on my way
to Vienna, where I did four weeks of dance training in this thing
called DanceAbility, which helps people train disabled people to dance.
And so we did a really involved piece at the Vienna International Dance Festival In 2016.
So that was a great highlight, too.
That was 2016.
And that was one of your first shows?
I did the Toronto show and the Vienna show within four weeks. Is that incredible?
And then, and shall I keep going? [Diane] Yes.
2022, I became the first Canadian disability artist ever to perform in Berlin.
I came to Germany through the Canada Council's Canada in Germany program,
and they gave me funding to join with the disability dance group in Berlin.
So we did a show there. Can I keep going?
Yes.
Last year was one of the great years of my life.
I became the first Canadian disability artist ever to perform in New Zealand.
First one ever to perform in New Zealand.
So I did a residency with a disability dance group
called Touch Compass in Auckland.
And it was very meaningful to me because it was the first dance show
I've ever done, which was directed by a disabled choreographer.
I had never had that experience before.
And not only was the gentleman a disabled choreographer, he was a member
of the indigenous community of New Zealand, known as the Maori people.
So that was, I think, doublely effective. Wow.
Yeah, it was really incredible.
And then after the show, I traveled to New Zealand,
and I met with artistic directors of different disability dance companies in New Zealand,
and they were very pleased to meet me, and that was great.
That's an incredible journey.
But What was I doing before New Zealand? Yeah.
Shall I tell you? Yes, I would love to know.
I'm so proud.
It really was an incredible year.
I am so proud to say, and I say this with great gratitude, enormous gratitude
to the Ontario Arts Council.
They bestowed upon me the Chalmers Arts Fellowship,
which is highly competitive, and it took me several attempts to get it.
So with that funding, I was able to go to London, England, and I did research
on the physically disabled dancer.
And I'd like to emphasize that not the learning disabled dancer,
not the deaf dancer, not the visually impaired dancer,
but specifically the physically disabled dancer,
because that was my interest, because I felt that they're underrepresented.
And now I'm trying to put a book together, but I can't talk about that.
We can't talk about it.
I have to bring you back and interview in a few months.
We're back in time now.
Okay, very good.
So I'm intrigued by this New Zealand project.
Can you give us a little bit...
I know you cannot talk about the final step of what you're trying to do.
Is that correct?
No, New Zealand is over.
New Zealand is over.
New Zealand is completed.
The book I'm working on is based on the research in London.
Based on the research in London.
But I was with this group called Touch Compass for two months.
I rehearsed a show with them.
I did a presentation on the role of the amputee in integrated dance,
and I also worked in their office.
Because it's my goal to run my own disability arts company.
That's what I'd like to do.
Okay.
And so how far are you on these steps?
Can I say a prayer? Yes.
Can I say it publicly?
I hope people at the Canada Council aren't watching.
No, I've applied for a big grant with the Canada Council, and we're going
to try to remount the show that we did in New York, here in Toronto, this fall.
So if we can get that off the ground, that will be the inaugural production
of the company. Okay.
Yeah. Very nice.
So this will be a different show. It will be expanded to a cast of five.
I'd like to mention, I've never worked in disability dance.
I work in integrated dance between disabled and able-bodied people.
So this will be a marriage, if you will, of disabled dancers
and people from the BIPOC community.
So we think that's going to be really interesting.
Can I ask you about the creation process behind one of these shows, the story
you build and you imagine, and also the different characters you imagine
when you're creating that kind of show?
Well, as any dancer will tell you, you very much
are in service to the choreographer.
And I work with the best choreographer in the world.
Her name is Heidi Latsky, and she's in New York.
She's originally from Montreal, and there's no one with more experience
working with amputee dancers than Heidi.
So she put a great show together for us based on my lived experience,
but she incorporated choreographic practice in it.
So she incorporated...
I'm sure you can put this on your website and you can see it.
She had us moving on arms.
She had me moving around the stage, and then she had me do a very dramatic
solo where I'm on crutsches, and I turn my body as the music swells and so on.
So she was able to create a good dramatic effect to it.
So when you work with a choreographer who has worked with disabled people,
they cut you no slack, that's for sure, because they know exactly what you're capable of.
And so Heidi really pushed me, and she needed to do that.
And I'm very glad she did.
How long does it take to build a show from scratch, from the original idea,
talking with the choreographer and saying, Okay, let's do that,
to the production show?
It depends what the choreographer's road is.
If you're working with directed choreography,
there are some choreographers who will tell you exactly,
do this, do this, do this, do this, do this.
And there are some choreographers who will work out of improvisation.
Improvisation certainly has its role.
I find if you're working on a budget and you have to get a show on by a certain date,
there's not a whole lot of time to invest in improvisation.
So I really do appreciate when choreographers have a vision,
and we all serve that vision. Of course, improvisation still plays a role in that.
But I certainly appreciate a choreographic outline to a show.
How long does it take?
It should take about four to six weeks. Okay.
Four to six weeks.
How long was the show? But you know what?
Even though - Oh, this is interesting.
So in the year 2020, we did like a sort of work in progress piece about the show,
and then the pandemic hit.
And then when we came back to New York to stage it again, I had to engage
in rehearsals on my own with a separate choreographer,
and she would do live video with Heidi watching in New York.
So I had to spend weeks of rehearsing in order to arrive at the rehearsal.
So even though the rehearsal might have taken a little over four weeks,
my own contribution represented a lot more time than that.
And I'm sure the other dancers did their thing as well prior to coming to it.
Yeah, more thinking when you put together that show in a grant application,
You have to give a sense of a timeline. Oh, absolutely.
You have to say when it's going to start, when it's going to end,
how many performances, what's the rehearsal schedule going to be like,
what are the milestones of the rehearsal schedule?
They really want so much information because it's a very competitive process
to get cultural funding in this nation.
But I'm very grateful to be in Canada because having experienced New Zealand,
which is a tiny little place, their budget is just a fraction of
what we're working with here, obviously, because it's a smaller population.
So I'm enormously grateful for Canada.
Canada has a certain absolute commitment to disability arts.
I would like to focus on a show of your choice in all the shows you've done.
and give us details on your whole thinking process and how it evolved from
the moment you were rehearsing to the moment you were on stage performing it?
How would it evolve from the moment?
Well, the show in New York came in different segments.
There was an ensemble segment where I worked with the other two ladies
and we worked around the room.
There were solo segments where I was completely on my own.
Certainly, what's most memorable to me is that Heidi wanted me to be on crutches,
and she wanted me to go very, very, very quickly, galloping, galloping, galloping,
back and forth and back and forth.
And then she wanted me to stop.
And then the music changes, and I turn and twist on my crutsches.
So I remember that very well.
And I certainly remember
it's different when you do it in front of an audience, that's for sure, because you get a reaction.
And I can just say one more thing.
The show we did in 2016, This is a true story.
There was a child in the audience.
So I asked the choreographer, Could you please make it clear
to the audience there's going to be some graphic images in the show?
And so she said, If there's anyone who doesn't feel comfortable,
you can take your program and just cover your eyes.
She only said it because I wanted her to say that,
because I was concerned about the child in the audience.
I didn't want to shock the child.
That's my only memory of it.
That's the only thing I I have about all the shows that I've done.
But New York really was the highlight of my career,
and I'm so hoping to do it again.
So really, I want to go back to the rehearsal.
So you were rehearsing with Heidi on these.
What was in your mind when you were progressing on stage?
When she asked you, for example, so you have to use your crutches,
you have to do this and that movement, it must feel a bit uncomfortable, like
pushing the boundaries on something that is not...
I mean, it's physical to dance in general.
And to dance on crutches, you must develop a certain technique.
You came late in the career of dancer, right?
So how did you develop all this technique?
Well, technique is an interesting word in the context of this genre of dance,
because we're talking about contemporary dance.
And when people think dance, some people think ballet,
or some people think tap dance.
And they have an image in their mind of a specific technique that is used
for each type of style of dance.
But in contemporary dance, it is so organic and it is so individualized,
you really make it work for yourself.
So in terms of technique, I would say,
I would almost say fitness level trumps technique,
that you just have to be fit, really, more than anything else.
So I had to lose some weight and try to get more active and really
be able to be more limber on the stage and to not be totally exhausted.
So in terms of technique, I would say it's about mental focus and fitness level.
And in terms of performance, I really do believe disabled dancers have a -
do expose a vulnerability about themselves that other dancers do not
because their bodies are just different, and they have a different the image that they're projecting.
So there's an emotional, there's a mental, and there's a physical.
I don't want to say toll, but there's a certain price that is paid
in order to get the best performance.
I see.
I have a question about the fact to
research dancers with disabilities,
but also live in a performance space with accessibility in general.
What is it for you to work
and live and research accessible dance?
Well, I'd like to say that it's been a most interesting experience
researching different disabled dancers, because disability dance brings with it
communities within communities.
I may have a physical disability, but I don't have cerebral palsy.
So it was interesting to me to talk to dancers who have cerebral palsy.
One dancer who has cerebral palsy has a joystick with the wheelchair,
and the other dancer uses it manually.
And another amputee dancer, her amputation was very, very high,
and another amputee dancer was less.
So the research really helped me to understand the diversity, not just
of disability per se, but the diversity within physical disability,
which is I don't think the public as a whole really understands that.
So I really hope that my research might get published and people
will be more aware of that.
And the other question was about accessibility?
Yes.
About accessible rehearsal space?
Accessibility for you.
So it could be accessible rehearsal space, or it could be a contact
with other performers, or it could be accessibility needs for yourself.
It's really accessibility in the arts at large.
Well, I really couldn't think much of myself if I did a show in a venue that wasn't accessible.
So Daniel Spectrum was completely accessible, and the show in New York
was the Gibney Center in Lower Manhattan, which is accessible.
Now, if you talk about accessibility, it's both motivating and frustrating.
It's motivating because it's fundamentally positive, but it's frustrating
because there are very few people with disabilities who are in positions
of artistic leadership.
Very few.
So I don't see a lot of physically disabled people
in places of artistic leadership in Canada.
So that's something I want to aim for, and we need to have that.
We need to have artistic leadership, and we need to have disabled people
own the art kind of thing and challenge their own, and chart their own journey.
So that's what I'd like to see.
And so you need that accessibility to be able to perform, right?
Yeah. So you also worked outside Ontario.
You worked in the United States, you worked in Europe,
you worked in New Zealand.
I can tell you in Vietnam, there is a disability dance group, and they only
perform, I believe, in ballrooms of major hotels, because those are
the only accessible places they can find.
So in a country like Vietnam, they do have issues of accessibility.
In terms of Toronto, if I do my show again, it'll be at the Daniel Spectrum
because it's an accessible space.
So that's where I want to have it. Yeah.
Plus, you know the space already.
I know the space, all right, as well.
But of course, I'd like to eventually work in larger venues.
Is Harbourfront accessible? Do you know?
Yes. It is Harbourfront. Okay. So that's great.
So let's do at Harbourfront, and let's get more disabled dancers at Harbourfront.
That would be great. That really would.
They actually do.
I think last year, they did a festival inviting a bunch of performers
with disabilities, including in their different spaces.
They have different theaters, including a dance theater, the Flake Dance Theater.
Everything is accessible.
I'll just tell you a quick little story.
I was watching CNN - excuse me, I was watching the PBS News Hour last night.
So there was a focus on disabled artists, visual artists
in Oakland, near San Francisco.
And they did say, right at the beginning, it's all different types of disabilities.
But the artists that they interviewed were all visual artists with developmental disabilities.
And then what they do is, they have once a week or once a month, they have a dance.
But the way that I saw it, the way it came across to me on my TV screen,
it seemed that they were all developmental people dancing,
but there were no physically disabled people.
So again, the word disability just means so many different things to so many different people.
Yes, that's true.
And so that's why I feel it's so important for my group that I'm part of,
to give physically disabled dancers and artists a greater visibility.
Thank you. I have a last question for you, and it's about
meeting people who drove you in your career.
So who motivated you to go further.
If you had one person in particular to think of, who would it be and why?
It would be the late great Geoff McMurchy, who is no longer among us.
And you can see Geoff in the National Film Board documentary, Shameless.
And Geoff, many years ago, started something called
the Vancouver Society of Disability, Arts, and Culture.
And in the year 2005, he went to his computer and he sent me an email
and he invited me to a dance audition, and he didn't know it
at the time, but he changed my life.
So I'd like to thank you, Geoff, very much, wherever you are now.
Really, really incredible guy.
And please watch Shameless Everyone.
It's on NFB.
He passed away maybe a little over 10 years ago.
But of course, I'd also like to say a big thank you to Heidi in New York
and to Maxine in Toronto and to all the dancers that I've worked with.
And again, I'd like to say, the majority of dancers I've worked with
have been able-bodied, which is significant because that's
the physical dialog I work with.
So I hope the able-bodied dancers have found it interesting to work with me.
I've certainly found it interesting to work with them.
Thank you so much, Lawrence.
And we will publish some resources related to this interview.
Probably the video you were mentioning about the choreography with Heidi,
the choreography where - the one that you want to recreate in your own?
Yes. And what's it called? What's the show called?
It's called Neither Starved nor Cold.
And where do we get the name from?
It comes from a Leonard Cohen song called Avalanche.
And the line from the song is:
The cripple you clothe and feed is neither starved nor cold.
So I don't think Mr. Cohen himself realized he was making a disability empowerment statement.
But that's what we take from it. Thank you so much.
Merci beaucoup, madame.
Neither? So say it again?
Oh, the title of the piece? Yes.
It's called Neither Starved nor Cold.
That's the name of the piece.
And it's taken from a Leonard Cohen song called Avalanche.
And I just love it.
The cripple you clothe and feed is neither starved nor cold.
And because we don't need inspiration, because we're neither starved nor cold.
That's beautiful. Thank you, Leonard, too.
He was a great, great influence, too.
Thank you so much for coming today.
Merci beaucoup, madame.
And all the best with the book project. Thank you.
Let's make a promise this won't be our last time.
Oh, no, it won't.
Do you promise? Yes, I promise.
Can you come see my show? Oh, yes, I will.
You'll come see my show? Completely accessible.
Yeah.
That's why we choose the Daniel Spectrum.
Okay. Thank you. Thank you so much.
Thanks, everyone. Thank you very much.
Bye..
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