1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:06,139 ♪ Opening theme music ♪ 2 00:00:13,546 --> 00:00:18,184 Hello, and welcome to this episode of ArtsAbly in Conversation. 3 00:00:18,184 --> 00:00:20,120 My name is Diane Kolin. 4 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:25,692 This series presents artists, academics, and project leaders who dedicate their 5 00:00:25,725 --> 00:00:31,798 time and energy to a better accessibility for people with disabilities in the arts. 6 00:00:31,831 --> 00:00:37,203 You can find more of these conversations on our website, artsably.com 7 00:00:37,203 --> 00:00:42,509 which is spelled A-R-T-S-A-B-L-Y dot com 8 00:00:43,343 --> 00:00:48,481 ♪ Theme music ♪ 9 00:00:55,355 --> 00:00:59,692 Today, ArtsAbly is in conversation with Lawrence Shapiro, 10 00:00:59,726 --> 00:01:05,064 the first above-knee amputee dancer to lead dance performances in Canada. 11 00:01:05,698 --> 00:01:10,737 You can find the resources mentioned by Lawrence Shapiro during this interview 12 00:01:10,737 --> 00:01:15,341 on ArtsAbly's website in the blog section. 13 00:01:16,943 --> 00:01:20,013 Hello, Lawrence. Welcome to ArtsAbly in Conversation. 14 00:01:20,013 --> 00:01:22,515 Hello, Diane. Thank you for this opportunity. 15 00:01:22,549 --> 00:01:24,484 Thank you so much for being here. [Lawrence in French] Bonjour. 16 00:01:24,484 --> 00:01:27,253 [Diane in French] Bonjour. [Lawrence in French] Je vous parle français. 17 00:01:27,253 --> 00:01:29,656 [Lawrence] Malheureusement je parle pas français. 18 00:01:29,656 --> 00:01:31,825 I'm not sure we're going to do the interview in French today. 19 00:01:31,825 --> 00:01:35,128 [Lawrence] Okay, so we'll stick with English. [Diane] I think so. 20 00:01:35,128 --> 00:01:42,602 So I know that you are one of the unique dancers in Canada 21 00:01:42,602 --> 00:01:46,072 who are doing what you're doing in dance. 22 00:01:46,172 --> 00:01:53,079 Yes, I am a validated deaf and disability artist with the Canada Council for the Arts. 23 00:01:53,079 --> 00:01:59,185 And I believe I'm probably one of the few amputee dancers in Canada. 24 00:01:59,619 --> 00:02:03,223 I'm sure they're more than me, but there's not a whole lot 25 00:02:03,256 --> 00:02:06,826 of us out there, I don't believe, who have a really high visibility. 26 00:02:06,860 --> 00:02:08,862 So I'd like to think I have a visibility. 27 00:02:08,895 --> 00:02:11,331 I've been doing this for about 20 years now. 28 00:02:11,431 --> 00:02:15,168 So yeah, that's my title - 29 00:02:15,201 --> 00:02:22,809 I'm a deaf and disability artist, and my genre is performance art or dance. 30 00:02:22,842 --> 00:02:25,545 When did you start dancing? 31 00:02:25,578 --> 00:02:27,881 The year was 2005. 32 00:02:27,914 --> 00:02:31,417 I was very unemployed, and I got an email 33 00:02:31,417 --> 00:02:34,854 from an organization in Vancouver, where I was living at the time, 34 00:02:34,854 --> 00:02:39,893 from a group called the Vancouver Society of Disability Arts and Culture. 35 00:02:39,893 --> 00:02:44,430 And they invited me to something that they called a disability dance audition. 36 00:02:44,464 --> 00:02:47,934 And being the less informed person I was at the time, 37 00:02:47,934 --> 00:02:52,305 I thought that disability dance really was for wheelchair users. 38 00:02:52,338 --> 00:02:56,276 And because I wasn't a wheelchair user, I thought I was at a disadvantage. 39 00:02:56,309 --> 00:02:59,679 I didn't think I could contribute because I felt wheelchair user 40 00:02:59,679 --> 00:03:03,182 were much more able to move around the stage faster. 41 00:03:03,216 --> 00:03:05,084 And I thought they had much more motion. 42 00:03:05,118 --> 00:03:07,587 And I didn't understand what role I could play. 43 00:03:07,620 --> 00:03:10,123 And it wasn't until I did the audition and we did the show 44 00:03:10,123 --> 00:03:16,863 that I began to understand that this word dance is not necessarily about motion per se. 45 00:03:16,896 --> 00:03:18,364 It's about performance. 46 00:03:18,398 --> 00:03:20,700 And it's the way you manifest movement 47 00:03:20,700 --> 00:03:23,169 and the way you present yourself to an audience. 48 00:03:23,203 --> 00:03:26,506 So that was my starting point in 2005. 49 00:03:26,539 --> 00:03:30,743 And it's been the most incredible 20 years. 50 00:03:30,777 --> 00:03:33,947 I just cannot believe all that I've achieved. 51 00:03:33,980 --> 00:03:36,783 What did you do before 2005? 52 00:03:36,816 --> 00:03:42,355 I was trying to make a documentary film about disabled women in Vietnam. 53 00:03:42,388 --> 00:03:44,424 I lived in Vietnam for many years. 54 00:03:44,457 --> 00:03:49,329 I was with an organization called World University Service of Canada. 55 00:03:49,362 --> 00:03:54,267 And what I wanted to do was make a documentary. 56 00:03:54,300 --> 00:03:57,103 So I did an internship with the National Film Board. 57 00:03:57,136 --> 00:04:03,910 And interestingly, the man who gave me the invitation for the disability dance audition 58 00:04:03,910 --> 00:04:09,115 was featured in a National Film Board documentary on disabled artists. 59 00:04:09,148 --> 00:04:12,252 And that film was called Shameless. 60 00:04:12,285 --> 00:04:15,121 I did my internship with the producer of the film. 61 00:04:15,154 --> 00:04:17,790 Her name is Tracey Friesen, and it's a terrific film. 62 00:04:17,790 --> 00:04:19,192 Please go check it out. 63 00:04:19,225 --> 00:04:20,326 Shameless. 64 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:24,197 And it's directed by Bonnie Sherr Klein, and that was a terrific film. 65 00:04:24,230 --> 00:04:27,533 And yes, so I was just looking for more opportunities. 66 00:04:27,533 --> 00:04:33,106 And then I got this [invitation]... It In a million years, I never thought I would be a dancer. 67 00:04:33,106 --> 00:04:34,574 Absolutely never. 68 00:04:34,574 --> 00:04:36,109 Never, ever, ever. 69 00:04:36,142 --> 00:04:43,650 So how did your career evolve after becoming a dancer? 70 00:04:43,650 --> 00:04:46,286 Well, after we did the show, someone in the audience saw, 71 00:04:46,319 --> 00:04:50,890 and they loved it so much, she applied to the United Way to get a grant. 72 00:04:50,923 --> 00:04:54,427 And so she invited me to do dance workshops for children 73 00:04:54,427 --> 00:04:56,796 through the grant that she got at the United Way. 74 00:04:56,829 --> 00:05:01,300 And so this was in Vancouver, and we went around together to different schools and so on. 75 00:05:01,300 --> 00:05:04,971 And I just began to get more re-interested in it. 76 00:05:05,004 --> 00:05:11,310 And then I learned that there was going to be a disability dance conference in Scotland. 77 00:05:11,310 --> 00:05:16,349 And then I submitted an application and they invited me to come speak to it. 78 00:05:16,382 --> 00:05:18,051 But how could I pay for it? 79 00:05:18,051 --> 00:05:23,823 And then my employment counselor said, the words that definitely changed my life, 80 00:05:23,856 --> 00:05:26,125 Check out the Canada Council website. 81 00:05:26,159 --> 00:05:29,462 And that's how I began to learn that there is funding available 82 00:05:29,495 --> 00:05:31,164 for disabled artists in Canada. 83 00:05:31,197 --> 00:05:32,498 So I did that conference. 84 00:05:32,532 --> 00:05:37,537 And then from there, I just kept doing more shows and applying for more grants. 85 00:05:38,271 --> 00:05:44,043 So can you talk a little bit about the shows that you worked on for these years? 86 00:05:44,777 --> 00:05:47,080 I'll start with Toronto. 87 00:05:47,113 --> 00:05:52,518 When I moved back to Toronto in the year 2015, 88 00:05:52,518 --> 00:05:58,458 I applied to the Ontario Arts Council's Deaf and Disability Arts program for funding to do a show, 89 00:05:58,458 --> 00:06:01,627 and I got the funding, and that was just thrilling. 90 00:06:01,661 --> 00:06:05,765 So I worked with a choreographer here in Toronto named Maxine Heppner, 91 00:06:05,798 --> 00:06:10,837 and she brought two able-bodied dancers, and we did a show at 92 00:06:10,837 --> 00:06:15,174 the Daniel Spectrum in Toronto at the Aki Studio Theatre. 93 00:06:15,174 --> 00:06:19,512 And I choose to believe - if I'm wrong, people can correct me, 94 00:06:19,512 --> 00:06:26,386 but I choose to believe I'm the first above-knee amputee dancer ever to lead a show in Canada. 95 00:06:26,419 --> 00:06:28,488 So that was Daniel Spectrum. 96 00:06:28,488 --> 00:06:30,590 That was Daniel Spectrum in 2016. 97 00:06:30,623 --> 00:06:34,727 But the big, big show that I'm so, so proud of was the show 98 00:06:34,761 --> 00:06:39,465 I did in New York City in 2021 at the Give Me Dance Theater. 99 00:06:39,499 --> 00:06:42,235 And not only did I perform in it, I produced it. 100 00:06:42,268 --> 00:06:44,871 I performed and produced it. 101 00:06:44,904 --> 00:06:49,208 So I believe I'm one of the few disabled artists to do that, 102 00:06:49,208 --> 00:06:51,911 Canadian disabled artists to do that in the United States. 103 00:06:52,311 --> 00:06:55,214 So that was Toronto and New York. I think you later - 104 00:06:55,214 --> 00:06:57,450 [Lawrence] There is more. There is more. [Diane] Tell me more. 105 00:06:57,450 --> 00:06:59,585 I'll verbalize my resume. 106 00:06:59,619 --> 00:07:01,954 2018. What a great year. 107 00:07:01,954 --> 00:07:06,559 Did a show in London, England, with a group called the Mickey Dance Theater. 108 00:07:06,592 --> 00:07:11,030 And we did a public installation piece in West London. 109 00:07:11,063 --> 00:07:14,667 And then they invited me back to do a repeat performance 110 00:07:14,700 --> 00:07:18,471 at the town hall in West London, with the local municipal government. 111 00:07:18,504 --> 00:07:21,107 And so I got a grant from the Canada Council to do that. 112 00:07:21,140 --> 00:07:24,610 So that was 2018, and that was absolutely great. 113 00:07:24,610 --> 00:07:29,949 And then, oh, in 2016, three days after I did my show, I was on my way 114 00:07:29,982 --> 00:07:33,286 to Vienna, where I did four weeks of dance training in this thing 115 00:07:33,319 --> 00:07:38,891 called DanceAbility, which helps people train disabled people to dance. 116 00:07:38,925 --> 00:07:45,231 And so we did a really involved piece at the Vienna International Dance Festival In 2016. 117 00:07:45,231 --> 00:07:48,034 So that was a great highlight, too. 118 00:07:48,067 --> 00:07:49,769 That was 2016. 119 00:07:49,802 --> 00:07:52,471 And that was one of your first shows? 120 00:07:52,505 --> 00:07:56,809 I did the Toronto show and the Vienna show within four weeks. Is that incredible? 121 00:07:56,809 --> 00:07:59,312 And then, and shall I keep going? [Diane] Yes. 122 00:07:59,312 --> 00:08:07,220 2022, I became the first Canadian disability artist ever to perform in Berlin. 123 00:08:07,220 --> 00:08:11,924 I came to Germany through the Canada Council's Canada in Germany program, 124 00:08:11,958 --> 00:08:16,195 and they gave me funding to join with the disability dance group in Berlin. 125 00:08:16,229 --> 00:08:19,131 So we did a show there. Can I keep going? 126 00:08:19,131 --> 00:08:19,765 Yes. 127 00:08:19,799 --> 00:08:23,870 Last year was one of the great years of my life. 128 00:08:23,903 --> 00:08:30,343 I became the first Canadian disability artist ever to perform in New Zealand. 129 00:08:30,343 --> 00:08:32,712 First one ever to perform in New Zealand. 130 00:08:32,745 --> 00:08:34,947 So I did a residency with a disability dance group 131 00:08:34,947 --> 00:08:37,950 called Touch Compass in Auckland. 132 00:08:37,984 --> 00:08:41,153 And it was very meaningful to me because it was the first dance show 133 00:08:41,153 --> 00:08:45,958 I've ever done, which was directed by a disabled choreographer. 134 00:08:45,992 --> 00:08:47,994 I had never had that experience before. 135 00:08:48,027 --> 00:08:51,697 And not only was the gentleman a disabled choreographer, he was a member 136 00:08:51,731 --> 00:08:55,801 of the indigenous community of New Zealand, known as the Maori people. 137 00:08:55,835 --> 00:08:59,005 So that was, I think, doublely effective. Wow. 138 00:08:59,038 --> 00:09:00,706 Yeah, it was really incredible. 139 00:09:01,173 --> 00:09:03,543 And then after the show, I traveled to New Zealand, 140 00:09:03,576 --> 00:09:08,881 and I met with artistic directors of different disability dance companies in New Zealand, 141 00:09:08,881 --> 00:09:11,684 and they were very pleased to meet me, and that was great. 142 00:09:11,717 --> 00:09:13,552 That's an incredible journey. 143 00:09:13,586 --> 00:09:16,188 But What was I doing before New Zealand? Yeah. 144 00:09:16,222 --> 00:09:18,257 Shall I tell you? Yes, I would love to know. 145 00:09:18,291 --> 00:09:19,492 I'm so proud. 146 00:09:19,525 --> 00:09:21,160 It really was an incredible year. 147 00:09:21,193 --> 00:09:26,732 I am so proud to say, and I say this with great gratitude, enormous gratitude 148 00:09:26,732 --> 00:09:28,234 to the Ontario Arts Council. 149 00:09:28,234 --> 00:09:31,704 They bestowed upon me the Chalmers Arts Fellowship, 150 00:09:31,704 --> 00:09:36,342 which is highly competitive, and it took me several attempts to get it. 151 00:09:36,375 --> 00:09:40,146 So with that funding, I was able to go to London, England, and I did research 152 00:09:40,179 --> 00:09:42,882 on the physically disabled dancer. 153 00:09:42,915 --> 00:09:46,586 And I'd like to emphasize that not the learning disabled dancer, 154 00:09:46,619 --> 00:09:50,356 not the deaf dancer, not the visually impaired dancer, 155 00:09:50,389 --> 00:09:53,326 but specifically the physically disabled dancer, 156 00:09:53,326 --> 00:09:56,629 because that was my interest, because I felt that they're underrepresented. 157 00:09:56,662 --> 00:10:00,399 And now I'm trying to put a book together, but I can't talk about that. 158 00:10:00,433 --> 00:10:02,101 We can't talk about it. 159 00:10:02,101 --> 00:10:04,737 I have to bring you back and interview in a few months. 160 00:10:04,770 --> 00:10:06,906 We're back in time now. 161 00:10:06,939 --> 00:10:10,543 Okay, very good. 162 00:10:10,576 --> 00:10:15,781 So I'm intrigued by this New Zealand project. 163 00:10:16,048 --> 00:10:17,283 Can you give us a little bit... 164 00:10:17,316 --> 00:10:24,023 I know you cannot talk about the final step of what you're trying to do. 165 00:10:24,056 --> 00:10:25,191 Is that correct? 166 00:10:25,224 --> 00:10:26,826 No, New Zealand is over. 167 00:10:26,859 --> 00:10:27,860 New Zealand is over. 168 00:10:27,860 --> 00:10:28,894 New Zealand is completed. 169 00:10:28,928 --> 00:10:31,964 The book I'm working on is based on the research in London. 170 00:10:31,998 --> 00:10:33,966 Based on the research in London. 171 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:37,069 But I was with this group called Touch Compass for two months. 172 00:10:37,103 --> 00:10:38,638 I rehearsed a show with them. 173 00:10:38,671 --> 00:10:41,974 I did a presentation on the role of the amputee in integrated dance, 174 00:10:42,008 --> 00:10:44,243 and I also worked in their office. 175 00:10:44,276 --> 00:10:48,047 Because it's my goal to run my own disability arts company. 176 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:49,849 That's what I'd like to do. 177 00:10:49,849 --> 00:10:51,017 Okay. 178 00:10:51,350 --> 00:10:54,420 And so how far are you on these steps? 179 00:10:54,453 --> 00:10:56,589 Can I say a prayer? Yes. 180 00:10:56,589 --> 00:10:58,357 Can I say it publicly? 181 00:10:58,391 --> 00:11:01,193 I hope people at the Canada Council aren't watching. 182 00:11:01,227 --> 00:11:05,898 No, I've applied for a big grant with the Canada Council, and we're going 183 00:11:05,931 --> 00:11:10,903 to try to remount the show that we did in New York, here in Toronto, this fall. 184 00:11:10,936 --> 00:11:16,075 So if we can get that off the ground, that will be the inaugural production 185 00:11:16,108 --> 00:11:18,144 of the company. Okay. 186 00:11:18,144 --> 00:11:19,245 Yeah. Very nice. 187 00:11:19,245 --> 00:11:23,816 So this will be a different show. It will be expanded to a cast of five. 188 00:11:23,816 --> 00:11:27,486 I'd like to mention, I've never worked in disability dance. 189 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:32,491 I work in integrated dance between disabled and able-bodied people. 190 00:11:32,792 --> 00:11:37,763 So this will be a marriage, if you will, of disabled dancers 191 00:11:37,763 --> 00:11:39,365 and people from the BIPOC community. 192 00:11:39,398 --> 00:11:42,635 So we think that's going to be really interesting. 193 00:11:42,668 --> 00:11:49,375 Can I ask you about the creation process behind one of these shows, the story 194 00:11:49,408 --> 00:11:54,447 you build and you imagine, and also the different characters you imagine 195 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:58,684 when you're creating that kind of show? 196 00:11:58,717 --> 00:12:01,687 Well, as any dancer will tell you, you very much 197 00:12:01,721 --> 00:12:03,722 are in service to the choreographer. 198 00:12:03,756 --> 00:12:06,725 And I work with the best choreographer in the world. 199 00:12:06,759 --> 00:12:09,762 Her name is Heidi Latsky, and she's in New York. 200 00:12:09,795 --> 00:12:13,732 She's originally from Montreal, and there's no one with more experience 201 00:12:13,766 --> 00:12:16,202 working with amputee dancers than Heidi. 202 00:12:16,235 --> 00:12:20,172 So she put a great show together for us based on my lived experience, 203 00:12:20,172 --> 00:12:23,609 but she incorporated choreographic practice in it. 204 00:12:23,642 --> 00:12:25,010 So she incorporated... 205 00:12:25,010 --> 00:12:27,746 I'm sure you can put this on your website and you can see it. 206 00:12:27,780 --> 00:12:29,381 She had us moving on arms. 207 00:12:29,415 --> 00:12:34,253 She had me moving around the stage, and then she had me do a very dramatic 208 00:12:34,253 --> 00:12:40,726 solo where I'm on crutsches, and I turn my body as the music swells and so on. 209 00:12:40,759 --> 00:12:43,763 So she was able to create a good dramatic effect to it. 210 00:12:43,796 --> 00:12:48,067 So when you work with a choreographer who has worked with disabled people, 211 00:12:48,067 --> 00:12:52,805 they cut you no slack, that's for sure, because they know exactly what you're capable of. 212 00:12:52,838 --> 00:12:56,008 And so Heidi really pushed me, and she needed to do that. 213 00:12:56,041 --> 00:12:58,711 And I'm very glad she did. 214 00:12:58,744 --> 00:13:04,383 How long does it take to build a show from scratch, from the original idea, 215 00:13:04,416 --> 00:13:07,720 talking with the choreographer and saying, Okay, let's do that, 216 00:13:07,753 --> 00:13:09,255 to the production show? 217 00:13:09,255 --> 00:13:15,594 It depends what the choreographer's road is. 218 00:13:15,628 --> 00:13:19,365 If you're working with directed choreography, 219 00:13:19,365 --> 00:13:21,400 there are some choreographers who will tell you exactly, 220 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:23,068 do this, do this, do this, do this, do this. 221 00:13:23,102 --> 00:13:26,806 And there are some choreographers who will work out of improvisation. 222 00:13:26,839 --> 00:13:29,408 Improvisation certainly has its role. 223 00:13:29,408 --> 00:13:34,880 I find if you're working on a budget and you have to get a show on by a certain date, 224 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:38,284 there's not a whole lot of time to invest in improvisation. 225 00:13:38,317 --> 00:13:42,321 So I really do appreciate when choreographers have a vision, 226 00:13:42,321 --> 00:13:46,759 and we all serve that vision. Of course, improvisation still plays a role in that. 227 00:13:46,792 --> 00:13:51,197 But I certainly appreciate a choreographic outline to a show. 228 00:13:51,230 --> 00:13:52,364 How long does it take? 229 00:13:52,398 --> 00:13:55,134 It should take about four to six weeks. Okay. 230 00:13:55,134 --> 00:13:56,302 Four to six weeks. 231 00:13:56,502 --> 00:13:58,237 How long was the show? But you know what? 232 00:13:58,270 --> 00:14:00,906 Even though - Oh, this is interesting. 233 00:14:00,940 --> 00:14:07,846 So in the year 2020, we did like a sort of work in progress piece about the show, 234 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:09,615 and then the pandemic hit. 235 00:14:09,615 --> 00:14:14,453 And then when we came back to New York to stage it again, I had to engage 236 00:14:14,486 --> 00:14:17,690 in rehearsals on my own with a separate choreographer, 237 00:14:17,690 --> 00:14:21,927 and she would do live video with Heidi watching in New York. 238 00:14:21,961 --> 00:14:26,599 So I had to spend weeks of rehearsing in order to arrive at the rehearsal. 239 00:14:26,632 --> 00:14:29,568 So even though the rehearsal might have taken a little over four weeks, 240 00:14:29,568 --> 00:14:34,406 my own contribution represented a lot more time than that. 241 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:38,477 And I'm sure the other dancers did their thing as well prior to coming to it. 242 00:14:38,510 --> 00:14:44,316 Yeah, more thinking when you put together that show in a grant application, 243 00:14:44,350 --> 00:14:47,653 You have to give a sense of a timeline. Oh, absolutely. 244 00:14:47,653 --> 00:14:50,589 You have to say when it's going to start, when it's going to end, 245 00:14:50,589 --> 00:14:54,093 how many performances, what's the rehearsal schedule going to be like, 246 00:14:54,093 --> 00:14:56,862 what are the milestones of the rehearsal schedule? 247 00:14:56,895 --> 00:15:01,333 They really want so much information because it's a very competitive process 248 00:15:01,333 --> 00:15:04,470 to get cultural funding in this nation. 249 00:15:04,503 --> 00:15:08,774 But I'm very grateful to be in Canada because having experienced New Zealand, 250 00:15:08,774 --> 00:15:12,978 which is a tiny little place, their budget is just a fraction of 251 00:15:13,012 --> 00:15:17,049 what we're working with here, obviously, because it's a smaller population. 252 00:15:17,082 --> 00:15:19,285 So I'm enormously grateful for Canada. 253 00:15:19,318 --> 00:15:23,522 Canada has a certain absolute commitment to disability arts. 254 00:15:23,555 --> 00:15:28,527 I would like to focus on a show of your choice in all the shows you've done. 255 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:37,703 and give us details on your whole thinking process and how it evolved from 256 00:15:37,736 --> 00:15:42,775 the moment you were rehearsing to the moment you were on stage performing it? 257 00:15:42,775 --> 00:15:46,545 How would it evolve from the moment? 258 00:15:46,812 --> 00:15:49,682 Well, the show in New York came in different segments. 259 00:15:49,715 --> 00:15:53,552 There was an ensemble segment where I worked with the other two ladies 260 00:15:53,552 --> 00:15:54,987 and we worked around the room. 261 00:15:55,020 --> 00:15:58,590 There were solo segments where I was completely on my own. 262 00:15:58,624 --> 00:16:02,961 Certainly, what's most memorable to me is that Heidi wanted me to be on crutches, 263 00:16:02,995 --> 00:16:06,031 and she wanted me to go very, very, very quickly, galloping, galloping, galloping, 264 00:16:06,031 --> 00:16:07,666 back and forth and back and forth. 265 00:16:07,700 --> 00:16:10,035 And then she wanted me to stop. 266 00:16:10,069 --> 00:16:14,873 And then the music changes, and I turn and twist on my crutsches. 267 00:16:14,873 --> 00:16:17,810 So I remember that very well. 268 00:16:17,843 --> 00:16:19,411 And I certainly remember 269 00:16:19,411 --> 00:16:24,416 it's different when you do it in front of an audience, that's for sure, because you get a reaction. 270 00:16:24,450 --> 00:16:26,952 And I can just say one more thing. 271 00:16:26,985 --> 00:16:30,923 The show we did in 2016, This is a true story. 272 00:16:30,956 --> 00:16:34,460 There was a child in the audience. 273 00:16:35,060 --> 00:16:38,964 So I asked the choreographer, Could you please make it clear 274 00:16:38,998 --> 00:16:42,968 to the audience there's going to be some graphic images in the show? 275 00:16:43,001 --> 00:16:46,038 And so she said, If there's anyone who doesn't feel comfortable, 276 00:16:46,038 --> 00:16:49,274 you can take your program and just cover your eyes. 277 00:16:49,308 --> 00:16:51,543 She only said it because I wanted her to say that, 278 00:16:51,543 --> 00:16:53,846 because I was concerned about the child in the audience. 279 00:16:53,846 --> 00:16:56,115 I didn't want to shock the child. 280 00:16:56,148 --> 00:16:57,649 That's my only memory of it. 281 00:16:57,683 --> 00:17:01,787 That's the only thing I I have about all the shows that I've done. 282 00:17:01,820 --> 00:17:04,189 But New York really was the highlight of my career, 283 00:17:04,223 --> 00:17:08,193 and I'm so hoping to do it again. 284 00:17:08,227 --> 00:17:12,664 So really, I want to go back to the rehearsal. 285 00:17:12,698 --> 00:17:16,902 So you were rehearsing with Heidi on these. 286 00:17:16,935 --> 00:17:21,473 What was in your mind when you were progressing on stage? 287 00:17:21,573 --> 00:17:25,477 When she asked you, for example, so you have to use your crutches, 288 00:17:25,477 --> 00:17:30,682 you have to do this and that movement, it must feel a bit uncomfortable, like 289 00:17:30,682 --> 00:17:36,588 pushing the boundaries on something that is not... 290 00:17:36,622 --> 00:17:39,558 I mean, it's physical to dance in general. 291 00:17:39,591 --> 00:17:46,832 And to dance on crutches, you must develop a certain technique. 292 00:17:46,865 --> 00:17:51,537 You came late in the career of dancer, right? 293 00:17:51,570 --> 00:17:54,673 So how did you develop all this technique? 294 00:17:54,706 --> 00:18:00,913 Well, technique is an interesting word in the context of this genre of dance, 295 00:18:00,946 --> 00:18:04,016 because we're talking about contemporary dance. 296 00:18:04,049 --> 00:18:07,252 And when people think dance, some people think ballet, 297 00:18:07,286 --> 00:18:09,121 or some people think tap dance. 298 00:18:09,154 --> 00:18:13,058 And they have an image in their mind of a specific technique that is used 299 00:18:13,058 --> 00:18:14,626 for each type of style of dance. 300 00:18:14,660 --> 00:18:19,631 But in contemporary dance, it is so organic and it is so individualized, 301 00:18:19,665 --> 00:18:21,800 you really make it work for yourself. 302 00:18:21,834 --> 00:18:24,336 So in terms of technique, I would say, 303 00:18:24,336 --> 00:18:27,105 I would almost say fitness level trumps technique, 304 00:18:27,105 --> 00:18:29,575 that you just have to be fit, really, more than anything else. 305 00:18:29,608 --> 00:18:33,612 So I had to lose some weight and try to get more active and really 306 00:18:33,645 --> 00:18:38,050 be able to be more limber on the stage and to not be totally exhausted. 307 00:18:38,584 --> 00:18:44,490 So in terms of technique, I would say it's about mental focus and fitness level. 308 00:18:44,490 --> 00:18:50,863 And in terms of performance, I really do believe disabled dancers have a - 309 00:18:50,863 --> 00:18:55,534 do expose a vulnerability about themselves that other dancers do not 310 00:18:55,534 --> 00:19:00,205 because their bodies are just different, and they have a different the image that they're projecting. 311 00:19:00,205 --> 00:19:03,142 So there's an emotional, there's a mental, and there's a physical. 312 00:19:03,175 --> 00:19:07,746 I don't want to say toll, but there's a certain price that is paid 313 00:19:07,779 --> 00:19:10,215 in order to get the best performance. 314 00:19:10,549 --> 00:19:11,917 I see. 315 00:19:11,950 --> 00:19:17,256 I have a question about the fact to 316 00:19:17,289 --> 00:19:22,427 research dancers with disabilities, 317 00:19:22,461 --> 00:19:29,268 but also live in a performance space with accessibility in general. 318 00:19:29,301 --> 00:19:36,308 What is it for you to work 319 00:19:36,341 --> 00:19:39,978 and live and research accessible dance? 320 00:19:40,012 --> 00:19:43,549 Well, I'd like to say that it's been a most interesting experience 321 00:19:43,582 --> 00:19:47,753 researching different disabled dancers, because disability dance brings with it 322 00:19:47,753 --> 00:19:49,755 communities within communities. 323 00:19:49,755 --> 00:19:53,492 I may have a physical disability, but I don't have cerebral palsy. 324 00:19:53,525 --> 00:19:57,162 So it was interesting to me to talk to dancers who have cerebral palsy. 325 00:19:57,195 --> 00:20:01,300 One dancer who has cerebral palsy has a joystick with the wheelchair, 326 00:20:01,333 --> 00:20:03,669 and the other dancer uses it manually. 327 00:20:03,702 --> 00:20:07,439 And another amputee dancer, her amputation was very, very high, 328 00:20:07,472 --> 00:20:10,042 and another amputee dancer was less. 329 00:20:10,075 --> 00:20:14,413 So the research really helped me to understand the diversity, not just 330 00:20:14,446 --> 00:20:18,984 of disability per se, but the diversity within physical disability, 331 00:20:19,017 --> 00:20:22,354 which is I don't think the public as a whole really understands that. 332 00:20:22,354 --> 00:20:26,592 So I really hope that my research might get published and people 333 00:20:26,592 --> 00:20:27,759 will be more aware of that. 334 00:20:27,793 --> 00:20:29,861 And the other question was about accessibility? 335 00:20:29,861 --> 00:20:30,662 Yes. 336 00:20:30,696 --> 00:20:33,165 About accessible rehearsal space? 337 00:20:33,198 --> 00:20:34,733 Accessibility for you. 338 00:20:34,733 --> 00:20:38,570 So it could be accessible rehearsal space, or it could be a contact 339 00:20:38,604 --> 00:20:42,507 with other performers, or it could be accessibility needs for yourself. 340 00:20:42,541 --> 00:20:46,445 It's really accessibility in the arts at large. 341 00:20:46,445 --> 00:20:50,616 Well, I really couldn't think much of myself if I did a show in a venue that wasn't accessible. 342 00:20:50,616 --> 00:20:55,020 So Daniel Spectrum was completely accessible, and the show in New York 343 00:20:55,053 --> 00:20:59,124 was the Gibney Center in Lower Manhattan, which is accessible. 344 00:20:59,124 --> 00:21:05,030 Now, if you talk about accessibility, it's both motivating and frustrating. 345 00:21:05,063 --> 00:21:08,834 It's motivating because it's fundamentally positive, but it's frustrating 346 00:21:08,834 --> 00:21:11,737 because there are very few people with disabilities who are in positions 347 00:21:11,770 --> 00:21:13,605 of artistic leadership. 348 00:21:13,605 --> 00:21:14,673 Very few. 349 00:21:14,706 --> 00:21:18,744 So I don't see a lot of physically disabled people 350 00:21:18,744 --> 00:21:22,047 in places of artistic leadership in Canada. 351 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:25,250 So that's something I want to aim for, and we need to have that. 352 00:21:25,250 --> 00:21:28,153 We need to have artistic leadership, and we need to have disabled people 353 00:21:28,153 --> 00:21:33,892 own the art kind of thing and challenge their own, and chart their own journey. 354 00:21:33,892 --> 00:21:37,562 So that's what I'd like to see. 355 00:21:37,763 --> 00:21:44,102 And so you need that accessibility to be able to perform, right? 356 00:21:44,136 --> 00:21:47,906 Yeah. So you also worked outside Ontario. 357 00:21:47,939 --> 00:21:51,243 You worked in the United States, you worked in Europe, 358 00:21:51,243 --> 00:21:52,411 you worked in New Zealand. 359 00:21:52,444 --> 00:21:57,449 I can tell you in Vietnam, there is a disability dance group, and they only 360 00:21:57,482 --> 00:22:01,820 perform, I believe, in ballrooms of major hotels, because those are 361 00:22:01,853 --> 00:22:04,222 the only accessible places they can find. 362 00:22:04,256 --> 00:22:07,592 So in a country like Vietnam, they do have issues of accessibility. 363 00:22:07,626 --> 00:22:13,065 In terms of Toronto, if I do my show again, it'll be at the Daniel Spectrum 364 00:22:13,098 --> 00:22:14,466 because it's an accessible space. 365 00:22:14,466 --> 00:22:16,468 So that's where I want to have it. Yeah. 366 00:22:16,468 --> 00:22:18,003 Plus, you know the space already. 367 00:22:18,003 --> 00:22:19,805 I know the space, all right, as well. 368 00:22:19,838 --> 00:22:24,409 But of course, I'd like to eventually work in larger venues. 369 00:22:24,443 --> 00:22:26,545 Is Harbourfront accessible? Do you know? 370 00:22:26,545 --> 00:22:28,246 Yes. It is Harbourfront. Okay. So that's great. 371 00:22:28,246 --> 00:22:31,416 So let's do at Harbourfront, and let's get more disabled dancers at Harbourfront. 372 00:22:31,416 --> 00:22:33,785 That would be great. That really would. 373 00:22:33,819 --> 00:22:35,153 They actually do. 374 00:22:35,187 --> 00:22:41,226 I think last year, they did a festival inviting a bunch of performers 375 00:22:41,259 --> 00:22:44,463 with disabilities, including in their different spaces. 376 00:22:44,496 --> 00:22:49,067 They have different theaters, including a dance theater, the Flake Dance Theater. 377 00:22:49,101 --> 00:22:50,235 Everything is accessible. 378 00:22:50,268 --> 00:22:51,570 I'll just tell you a quick little story. 379 00:22:51,603 --> 00:22:57,576 I was watching CNN - excuse me, I was watching the PBS News Hour last night. 380 00:22:57,609 --> 00:23:01,680 So there was a focus on disabled artists, visual artists 381 00:23:01,713 --> 00:23:04,483 in Oakland, near San Francisco. 382 00:23:04,483 --> 00:23:08,120 And they did say, right at the beginning, it's all different types of disabilities. 383 00:23:08,153 --> 00:23:12,657 But the artists that they interviewed were all visual artists with developmental disabilities. 384 00:23:12,657 --> 00:23:17,295 And then what they do is, they have once a week or once a month, they have a dance. 385 00:23:17,329 --> 00:23:21,767 But the way that I saw it, the way it came across to me on my TV screen, 386 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:25,403 it seemed that they were all developmental people dancing, 387 00:23:25,403 --> 00:23:27,506 but there were no physically disabled people. 388 00:23:27,506 --> 00:23:33,044 So again, the word disability just means so many different things to so many different people. 389 00:23:33,044 --> 00:23:34,246 Yes, that's true. 390 00:23:34,279 --> 00:23:41,119 And so that's why I feel it's so important for my group that I'm part of, 391 00:23:41,153 --> 00:23:46,892 to give physically disabled dancers and artists a greater visibility. 392 00:23:47,893 --> 00:23:53,632 Thank you. I have a last question for you, and it's about 393 00:23:53,632 --> 00:23:57,335 meeting people who drove you in your career. 394 00:23:57,369 --> 00:24:01,640 So who motivated you to go further. 395 00:24:01,673 --> 00:24:06,912 If you had one person in particular to think of, who would it be and why? 396 00:24:06,945 --> 00:24:11,349 It would be the late great Geoff McMurchy, who is no longer among us. 397 00:24:11,383 --> 00:24:15,587 And you can see Geoff in the National Film Board documentary, Shameless. 398 00:24:15,587 --> 00:24:18,790 And Geoff, many years ago, started something called 399 00:24:18,790 --> 00:24:22,694 the Vancouver Society of Disability, Arts, and Culture. 400 00:24:22,694 --> 00:24:28,800 And in the year 2005, he went to his computer and he sent me an email 401 00:24:28,834 --> 00:24:33,738 and he invited me to a dance audition, and he didn't know it 402 00:24:33,772 --> 00:24:37,042 at the time, but he changed my life. 403 00:24:37,075 --> 00:24:40,679 So I'd like to thank you, Geoff, very much, wherever you are now. 404 00:24:40,712 --> 00:24:42,214 Really, really incredible guy. 405 00:24:42,214 --> 00:24:44,482 And please watch Shameless Everyone. 406 00:24:44,516 --> 00:24:45,684 It's on NFB. 407 00:24:45,717 --> 00:24:48,820 He passed away maybe a little over 10 years ago. 408 00:24:48,854 --> 00:24:52,524 But of course, I'd also like to say a big thank you to Heidi in New York 409 00:24:52,557 --> 00:24:57,162 and to Maxine in Toronto and to all the dancers that I've worked with. 410 00:24:57,162 --> 00:25:00,065 And again, I'd like to say, the majority of dancers I've worked with 411 00:25:00,098 --> 00:25:03,301 have been able-bodied, which is significant because that's 412 00:25:03,335 --> 00:25:05,904 the physical dialog I work with. 413 00:25:05,937 --> 00:25:10,509 So I hope the able-bodied dancers have found it interesting to work with me. 414 00:25:10,542 --> 00:25:13,712 I've certainly found it interesting to work with them. 415 00:25:13,745 --> 00:25:15,313 Thank you so much, Lawrence. 416 00:25:15,347 --> 00:25:19,818 And we will publish some resources related to this interview. 417 00:25:19,851 --> 00:25:25,924 Probably the video you were mentioning about the choreography with Heidi, 418 00:25:25,957 --> 00:25:31,563 the choreography where - the one that you want to recreate in your own? 419 00:25:31,563 --> 00:25:33,965 Yes. And what's it called? What's the show called? 420 00:25:33,965 --> 00:25:36,868 It's called Neither Starved nor Cold. 421 00:25:36,902 --> 00:25:38,703 And where do we get the name from? 422 00:25:38,737 --> 00:25:42,440 It comes from a Leonard Cohen song called Avalanche. 423 00:25:42,474 --> 00:25:44,910 And the line from the song is: 424 00:25:44,910 --> 00:25:50,448 The cripple you clothe and feed is neither starved nor cold. 425 00:25:50,448 --> 00:25:55,453 So I don't think Mr. Cohen himself realized he was making a disability empowerment statement. 426 00:25:55,453 --> 00:25:58,990 But that's what we take from it. Thank you so much. 427 00:25:58,990 --> 00:26:00,625 Merci beaucoup, madame. 428 00:26:00,659 --> 00:26:03,261 Neither? So say it again? 429 00:26:03,261 --> 00:26:05,363 Oh, the title of the piece? Yes. 430 00:26:05,363 --> 00:26:08,266 It's called Neither Starved nor Cold. 431 00:26:08,300 --> 00:26:09,801 That's the name of the piece. 432 00:26:09,834 --> 00:26:13,872 And it's taken from a Leonard Cohen song called Avalanche. 433 00:26:13,905 --> 00:26:15,941 And I just love it. 434 00:26:15,974 --> 00:26:20,111 The cripple you clothe and feed is neither starved nor cold. 435 00:26:20,178 --> 00:26:25,617 And because we don't need inspiration, because we're neither starved nor cold. 436 00:26:26,851 --> 00:26:29,554 That's beautiful. Thank you, Leonard, too. 437 00:26:29,587 --> 00:26:32,557 He was a great, great influence, too. 438 00:26:32,590 --> 00:26:34,359 Thank you so much for coming today. 439 00:26:34,392 --> 00:26:35,694 Merci beaucoup, madame. 440 00:26:35,694 --> 00:26:38,263 And all the best with the book project. Thank you. 441 00:26:38,263 --> 00:26:40,598 Let's make a promise this won't be our last time. 442 00:26:40,632 --> 00:26:41,366 Oh, no, it won't. 443 00:26:41,366 --> 00:26:42,934 Do you promise? Yes, I promise. 444 00:26:42,934 --> 00:26:44,502 Can you come see my show? Oh, yes, I will. 445 00:26:44,502 --> 00:26:46,771 You'll come see my show? Completely accessible. 446 00:26:46,771 --> 00:26:47,739 Yeah. 447 00:26:47,939 --> 00:26:50,041 That's why we choose the Daniel Spectrum. 448 00:26:50,342 --> 00:26:52,611 Okay. Thank you. Thank you so much. 449 00:26:52,611 --> 00:26:53,979 Thanks, everyone. Thank you very much. 450 00:26:53,979 --> 00:26:55,246 Bye.. 451 00:26:56,848 --> 00:27:01,987 ♪ Closing theme music ♪