♪ Opening theme music ♪
Hello and welcome to this episode of ArtsAbly in Conversation.
My name is Diane Kolin.
This series presents artists, academics, and project leaders
who dedicate their time and energy to a better accessibility for people with disabilities in the arts.
You can find more of these conversations on our website, artsably.com,
which is spelled A-R-T-S-A-B-L-Y dot com
♪ Theme music ♪
Today ArtsAbly is in conversation with Jessica Tomlinson,
who is a singer, an assistive technology instructor,
and an audio recording editor.
You can find the resources mentioned by Jessica Tomlinson during this episode
on ArtsAbly's website in the blog section.
♪ Jessica sings Adele, Easy on Me ♪
Okay thank you, Jessica, for being with us today.
I am with Jessica Tomlinson and she is a singer,
she's a RAMPD community member, which is the Recording Artists and Music Professionals with Disabilities network,
and she's also an assistive technology instructor. She's working on podcast editing and other activities that we will discuss with her today.
So, Jessica, thank you.
Thank you very much for having me. It's great to meet you and learn about your work in your company, ArtsAbly.
Yeah, so we are very happy to be able to give the opportunity to artists
to express themselves on what their activities are,
and what awesome work is here outside, because there are so many people
who are doing work that should be known and should be out there, so,
yeah, that's - I really like discussing with artists.
And so I wanted to ask you to present yourself and also to provide a visual description.
Okay, wonderful. Well, first of all, I am a petite white woman with shoulder length brown hair,
and I am wearing a green sparkly top with a green and gold starfish pin on my shoulder,
and I have these green and gold earrings that sort of resemble trumpet flowers a little bit.
And I do have nystagmus. So for those of you watching on the video, if you see my eyes jumping around uncontrollably,
I don't feel it happening. It's just a thing that happens, especially when I'm talking and when I'm very focused
on a point I'm making, my brain just sort of - that's sort of what it does.
So we will talk more about that in a little bit, but that is my visual description
for those of you not able to see me on the video or for those that are listening in podcast form.
Thank you so much. In the exchange that we had before we scheduled the interview,
you told me that you graduated from Full Sail University.
Yes. So I have had low vision all my life. I've had very low vision,
and in the United States, that is considered to be legally blind.
So of a certain visual acuity and description to get various accommodations in school, various services.
I went to public school throughout my school age years.
And then after graduating high school, I was a teenager with big dreams and big ideas,
and I was bent on becoming a recording engineer. So a person that would work in the recording studio
behind the glass, making everything sound very good and very professional.
So I went to a trade school in Orlando called Full Sail University.
They have since become a four year program, but at the time, they were a one year accelerated associate's degree.
So I went through their recording arts program and gained a lot of very valuable experience
and learned a lot of concepts. It was my first time away from home,
growing and learning experience, first time with a roommate that we didn't always get along, but we were amiable,
lots of great experiences. But back then,
things were not quite as accessible as they are now.
We can talk later on about that analog hardware versus in the box software,
in terms of recording and gear, there are pluses and minuses in terms of accessibility to both.
So back when I was going through the program, that was 2004-2005,
there were still a bunch of accessibility pitfalls with the gear.
There were transportation issues in all of the areas where one had to move to become competitive.
And quite frankly, it was a boys club.
So someone walking in that's petite and female and visually impaired and toting a step stool so that I could reach the top of the gear rack,
that didn't always look like I was going to succeed.
And to boot, I had a family that did not want me to be far away from them.
So I went a different path. I went to St. Petersburg College
in St. Petersburg, Florida, and got a bachelor's degree in education.
And then I started working at a community rehab center
for adults.
And we also have programs for children, but mainly adults who are
visually impaired and legally blind and losing vision later in life.
And they said, well, we can bring you on full time if you go back to school and you get a master's degree.
So I got a master's online from UMass Boston,
and I am now a vision rehabilitation therapist
who mainly does assistive technology. So I teach people how to use
screen readers and screen magnification software
on computers and smartphones. And I also teach independent living skills so that my clients can
live safely and independently in their homes and have fulfilling lives,
etcetera, etcetera. So that was a lot, but that is basically the answer to that part of the question.
But you also play the keyboards and sing.
So when did you, when did that start, this artistic attraction?
So I've always been very outgoing,
even back when I was doing the technical program at Full Sail,
we had a music theory class
required of all of us. And even before that,
I very much enjoyed singing in the chorus
in high school and learning
about how music is put together and how to connect with music.
I really, really liked my chorus teachers in high school,
and so I always kind of wanted to play an instrument.
But it was one of those things where I didn't have a lot of role models around.
I didn't have a lot of musical people in my family or friends of the family.
So I just sort of picked up this notion that it was something you had to be like,
quote unquote special or born into in order to do well with.
So I didn't for the longest time, until
I was at school in Orlando, and I had this music theory class, and I basically
couldn't stand not to any more.
So this is a ridiculous story.
I had a shopping center right next to where I lived.
I could walk from my apartment to my school. And in between the two, there was this shopping center.
And in this shopping center, there was a radio shack.
Remember those? [Laughs.]
And I went in there
and very embarrassed and very self conscious, I bought myself a
kind of almost a kids 61 key keyboard
and carted it home on foot when my roommate was away at class
and pretty much hit it because I was afraid and
self conscious and didn't want people to hear the inevitable
fits and starts that happen when you're first learning something.
I did not want to be so brash as to annoy people with that kind of stage that I was at.
So I worked, in addition to being at school and learning all the nifty stuff about recording, I also
worked on learning scales and learning chords and
learning to play some little pop tunes and things. And
fortunately, when I was finishing that program and preparing to come back to St. Petersburg, where I live,
I had to tell my parents, look,
this isn't really very
fleshed out or very good yet, but there's something I've been working on.
There's something I'm going to have to bring home with me. And
you know I basically sat them down and played them a song, and that's how I,
you know, showed them I had learned to play an instrument.
And then I came back to St. Petersburg and found a neighbor who was giving lessons.
That was like a classical piano teacher that taught me for two or three more years after that.
And I picked up a lot of really great things from him. And that is how my
artistic and performing side got started, and it's kind of been with me ever since.
And is it - So what started first? Is that your - this idea that you wanted to
be a professional recording artist or the singing part or musical part,
how did that articulate? How did that come together?
So I think the technical side started first. I've always been very curious about how things work.
I've got a lot of mechanics in the family. I've always enjoyed listening to them talk about, like, their older cars.
My parents had a home theater system. I was always very interested in how that's set up and how that stuff works.
I would go to concerts and would see the front of house mixing console, which is basically the big
board under the tent in the middle of the audience,
and I'd see all these - or it would be - I take that back.
It would be described to me, and I was allowed to come close and look at
all the faders and knobs and things. And that's how I learned
that each channel strip on the mixer
is pretty much identical. So you pretty much have 24 or 32 copies of the same thing
over and over again. And then you have a little main section over at the right
or sometimes in the middle. So I was - when I found out that people did that for a living,
oh, man, I was so hooked. I was so going to make a whole entire life out of that.
But I always also really loved music a lot.
My whole life, I've always really connected with music a lot.
So once I found out that, you know, I could also play, if even just for fun,
then that had to come along for the ride, too.
And you perform live today?
I do. I perform at coffee shops
and art markets and
art gallery opening receptions, and
I enjoy playing with other musicians.
I have some people I kind of just jam with informally, and
we might be playing out soon a little bit and that sort of thing.
And you told me that you are also
hosting a podcast. Can you tell me more about this podcast?
Yes. So I belong to a group called Blind Pride International,
which is a group of people at the intersection of blindness
and the LGBT community and our
visually impaired and blind allies, and also our straight
sighted allies. Anybody who is interested in what we're doing and
wants to connect with us and just as curious and open hearted is welcome to kind of be a part of what we do.
But we host a podcast just for the broader community to
give people a window into what we do and what we're about.
And the podcast is called Pride Connection.
We've had a number of really exciting episodes lately.
One of the ones I'm most proud of that I actually edited and put together
was a Halloween episode last October called They're Kooky and they're Spooky,
talking all about our best Halloween stories
and our memories, because Halloween in the queer community was always a chance to
kind of let loose a little bit and be weird and be different and dress up and,
and, um, be a little bit over the top.
So that was a cool episode because I added a lot of music and a lot of sound effects.
And one episode that we did recently was kind of making the case
for our organization to be - Um, what's the word?
As intersectional as possible and to acknowledge and uplift as many
different groups human rights as we possibly can
and why those issues are so important.
So that episode just came out, and currently
I'm editing an episode that's called
Embarrassing Bloopers. So little weird and funny things that happen
because someone doesn't see in the normative way,
either not recognizing people or
just walking, thinking you're walking into a health food store, when really you're walking into an art gallery.
Different funny things like that.
I work on a team, so I'm one of about three people that take turns editing the episodes,
and I also enjoy hosting sometimes, we also take turns with that.
So we recently hosted a show about books and a show about representation in film and TV.
So I was asking a lot of people questions, and I was, like, in the host chair, and someone else edited those episodes.
We try to trade off having one person host and another person edit. Kind of like having an author and an editor,
or like a mix engineer and a mastering engineer to just get another pair of ears on the thing.
And how frequently do you publish these podcasts?
We publish an episode once every two weeks or so.
Can we have the URL to know more about that? And I will also publish that on ArtsAbly's website.
Yes. We're currently on a network called Pinecast
and we're also on the ACB Media network.
So the ACB stands for the American Council of the Blind.
So Blind Pride International is currently a small subset or affiliate
underneath the umbrella of the American Council of the Blind.
So you can find us at Pinecast or at ACB Media Network,
and I'm happy to share that link with you all.
It's currently only in an audio format, and I don't believe we have transcriptions at this time.
That's one of our future goals, though.
I see. That's really, really interesting. I
had the occasion to listen to a few episodes,
including the books and the movie one,
and that's very interesting. I encourage everybody to have a look
and to hear all these podcasts.
And I - Also, you told me that you are a visual artist.
Can you talk about this part of your life?
Yes. So that's fairly recent. That's actually a thing that started in 2020
when we all were kind of indoors with not much to do,
and I was feeling bummed because I wouldn't have audiences for my music for the foreseeable future.
And I noticed that people's attention spans were very, very short online.
So even if I practiced and practiced and prepared and set up the scene and
did a video and posted a whole thing online,
people probably weren't going to listen to the whole thing. I was not getting very many likes.
I've - One thing about me and my social media presence is I've never been great at
working the algorithm. I've never been something that the algorithm eats up,
because I don't currently work with anyone to produce, like,
slick, visual appealing videos.
They're all kind of DIY or do it yourself stuff that me and my limited vision can produce.
So that's why I just. I kind of regressed back to childhood a little bit
and just decided to play, if you will.
So my mom is an artist, and my uncle on my mom's side is an artist.
So we have art that runs in the family,
and I've always felt close to her side of the family.
My mom does very realistic portraits, and my uncle does very realistic oil paintings.
And I remember when I was growing up that we used to draw goofy pictures,
and we used to trace, we used to turn cookie cutters into stencils, and we used to trace shapes out of construction paper,
and then we'd cut them out and glue them on like a storyboard thing,
kind of the way we did in school. The teacher had something like that in my kindergarten class,
so we would do that kind of stuff at home, too. So
when I do my visual art today,
it takes a number of forms. It's either a drawing with colored pencils,
or it's a paper craft, usually involving tracing a cookie cutter
and then adding details with more paper or markers or colored pencils or puff paint,
or it's an acrylic painting that is on the abstract side.
And I love acrylic because the colors are so high contrast.
They're very bold, they're very bright, and if you give them a chance to dry, they don't
meld into one another the way that my mom's watercolors do.
Watercolors just drip everywhere and get very messy very quickly.
And I am a very neat freak that does not like mess.
So I do use a very large magnifier that we call a desktop video magnifier,
or some people call it colloquially a closed circuit tv or a CCTV.
And it's basically a TV screen that's probably about a 20 inch screen
with a panel of controls underneath it for, like, the size and the brightness.
And there's a camera underneath it. And it's about a foot above
a moving table tray that moves side to side and front and back.
So you - it's mainly designed for reading it. You can put a newspaper or a magazine or a book
or something underneath it and move the tray so that you can easily follow
a line across the page. And it magnifies everything very large.
And because it uses a camera, you can see movement on it immediately in real time.
So it's very good for writing, for drawing, for coloring.
I try not to use acrylic paint on it too much because, again, mess.
And I will sometimes use puff paint on it that comes in a small tube that is
easy to control and doesn't drip everywhere usually.
But it's great for doing colored pencils. It's also great for cutting things out with scissors.
I would like to think I'm getting better at that, making nice, rounded shapes with scissors.
Okay, thank you.
Okay, so I have -
My next question is something that I usually ask to all the artists
that come to ArtsAbly's interviews.
It's about accessibility in the arts and how your own,
your own feeling and your own,
your own integration of accessibility in your artistic practices.
Can you share a little bit about that?
Yes. Let me think about that for a minute, I guess.
So my first thought about accessibility in the arts,
my first thought is toward audio.
So the one thing about analog hardware, like an old fashioned analog mixing console, is that
there is a fader, there is a knob, there is a button for everything.
And a fader is just a slider that slides up and down or side to side,
rather - so that you can push a lot with a lot of fingers at one time.
Same thing with outboard gear like
tube compressors or equalizers or preamps, all those things.
There is a knob for every function.
However, all of that older analog gear is very expensive
and requires a lot of maintenance.
And one also needs, if one is like me and doesn't see well
and can't just very readily read the labels on things,
one needs to either use a magnifier and take a lot of time or be told,
you know, this control does this, this does that, this does that. And you almost have to memorize the layout of something
before you're very comfortable and familiar with it.
So when I'm in a situation like that, I like to have a lot of time alone
with stuff, or maybe with somebody there that's just patient and will say the name of what I point to
so that I don't get overwhelmed with too much at one time.
We have made a lot of advances in software accessibility.
Nowadays we have software programs which we call
digital audio workstations, or DAWs.
And when all of the mixing and processing and stuff is done within the DAW program,
we call that quote unquote mixing in the box,
because it's all within a computer, rather than being all these patch cables to all this outboard gear.
So that's all great.
If that software and its associated plugins,
which are - the plugins in a digital audio workstation are like the equivalent to the outboard gear in a traditional recording studio.
So the DAW itself and the plugins that one chooses to use
need to be able to work with a screen reader on the computer.
And if that, if the programs are written so that they don't, the buttons aren't labeled
or they just doesn't give the screen reader a lot of feedback,
it's kind of a problem. Now, I can somewhat get around these problems because
I have the privilege of being able to magnify my screen to about three or four X
and to mostly, most of the time, be able to see what is going on somewhat.
But there is still a lot that needs to be done with getting software
systems to be accessible, particularly in the recording field.
Some positive work that is being done in that area:
I use a digital audio workstation software program that's called Reaper,
and it is sort of open source. I say sort of because
one does need to buy a license for it depending on the size of your business.
But it is being worked on and developed by a community of volunteers. So that makes it somewhat open source.
And particularly the extension for Reaper that makes it screen reader friendly is called OSARA.
And OSARA is definitely worked on and improved upon over time by
a community of users. So I would say that part is definitely open source.
And there is actually a listserv called
Reapers Without Peepers. I love that name! [Laughs.]
So they are doing some great work.
Also, I want to shout out, Native Instruments has a MIDI controller
called Komplete control, and their plugin that goes with it has a lot of accessibility built in.
And also Arturia has a virtual instrument called Analog Lab
where some accessibility was built in.
And also the MIDI association.
MIDI stands for Musical Instrument Digital Interface.
And there is basically a volunteer association that
puts together the standards to basically make all these different digital instruments talk to each other.
And they now have an accessibility working group which I'm very, very excited to follow what they are up to
and hopefully contribute to, if I can, with my own experiences.
I really wish that these software companies would do user research and talk to their
users, not only who have blindness or visual impairment, but who also have
all manner of other disabilities to just get a sense for how can we make this more universally usable to more people
from the beginning rather than at the very end as an afterthought.
Definitely. And we have that too in lots of -
For example, software about music creation such as Sibelius
have been very, very long not accessible,
for a very long time not accessible.
And now they start, thanks to the people who are using it.
There was a group of blind people who were using it and who really worked with a -
I don't remember the name of the association, but finally Sibelius started to include these
plugins and easier ways to access the notes and
the score itself and things like that. And now it starts to be here.
So that's great to hear that in the recording world,
we also have some kind of improvement that is going on right now.
I'm so glad that Sibelius is finally starting to think about accessibility.
I remember I used Sibelius in music theory class when I was doing my undergrad.
I did take some music theory classes while at St. Pete College too, and
again with a magnified screen I could sort of do it, but it was hard and
headache inducing. So I'm glad that they're doing accessible now. That's great to hear.
But yeah, there is also the access to the stage and the access to your -
I mean, when you are performing, you should also consider accessibility.
And I think you also have -
We also chatted briefly about that,
accessibility as performers.
Yes. So, unfortunately,
I'm not performing live as much as I would like right now.
Number one, I have had some wonderful friends
offered to help me when they are able, but
not being able to drive is a big barrier right now.
So currently I use paratransit, which is a door to door ride service
that they farm out to a taxi company or Uber and Lyft,
which is great for getting myself places.
It may not be so good for getting my gear places
because the standard paratransit driver
is not going to be able to unload
a giant 88 key digital piano that I have behind me,
and a stand and a bench and two speakers and a mixer
and a microphone and a couple of other stands.
I would need a whole van and some roadies for that. [Laughs.]
So I've had to think a lot about
how can I keep it small, how can I keep it light.
And again, I have had some wonderful friends help me
with some of that stuff some of the time,
but I'm very self conscious and very aware of not wanting
to overburden them and not wanting to burn them out
and not wanting to take advantage of them too much.
So I've done a lot of going to open mics
where there's already a PA and bringing my tablet
and maybe one or two other accessories,
or I've, you know, I'm,
you know, have started bringing a smaller keyboard to some gigs, even though I, you know, prefer to have more range.
And I think it's generally just a perception, too. Like,
it's perceived that people who don't drive are just automatically going to be less reliable than people that do.
And also, I live in an area that has a lot of arts and culture, which is very good,
but it's also very competitive. And there have been
gigging long before I was born, and
I, you know, certainly don't want to take gigs away from them.
And I have to realize that I also have the privilege of having a day job,
which, I mean, I would like to do more performing, and I would like to step more into that side of myself.
The older I get, the more I want to perform and move into all of this creative side of things.
But, yeah, I'm sure that I'm about four foot eleven, and I'm sure that I still somewhat look like a child.
And it's a perception again. I may not be the most conventionally attractive.
I'm not a person that usually wears makeup.
Yeah. But that's okay for.
For me, whatever your size or your ability are,
as long as you can be on stage and share a bit of your, your
artistry with us. Yeah, that's it. Right. We should -
I watched some of your videos performing, and you have a beautiful voice
and it should be out there. You should be,
You should be able to show that a little bit more.
So if you just go with your tablet in a place where there is always a microphone, that's great.
Yes.
I encourage you to do that more.
Yes. Thank you. And that's definitely what I've been leaning into.
What do you have on your tablet when you bring in your tablet? Is that a screen magnifier or what is that exactly?
Well, I basically downloaded a bunch of backing tracks
onto my iPad so that it can either connect
via bluetooth to their PA or hardwired.
I have a bluetooth adapter that just plugs in if they have a jack for it.
And so, so that I don't have to bring an instrument,
I just play my backing tracks and sing, which I know doesn't have the visual appeal
of watching someone play an instrument. But, hey, sometimes you got to do what you got to do.
Exactly. [Laughs.]
So a backing track means, like, an accompaniment.
Some of them I create, some of them I've gotten from other places.
Do you have any things like, for example, audio descriptions and other things that could
improve the accessibility even more of a performance? Do you do that sometimes or?
Yeah, I think I could. I think I could start saying things, you know, describing myself like I did at the top of the show.
I do know there are some performing venues in my area that have some audio description.
Not many of them do, though. And that's one thing that if they're interested in hearing about things
that I try to bring up, that audio description might make it a little bit easier for some people.
What about touch tours?
Oh, yes. So.
I'm pretty sure that your audience probably already knows what audio description is,
but I'm happy to explain it if that might be helpful for some.
Audio description is currently available on more TV programs currently
and certainly on the streaming services. I'm very pleased with the increased offering
of it on the streaming platforms because it's so easy to add.
It is a narration track that describes the action on the screen
for people that are blind or have low vision and may not be able to adequately see the screen and all the action going on.
So what we're talking about here is that it's also done in some live performance venues as well.
So a very good example is the Straz Center in Tampa, which is a big performing arts center.
And they have Broadway shows come to town, and they have a season where they do,
you know, seven or eight shows all throughout the year. And one show
out of the - meaning, one particular showing of a run of a certain show,
usually on a Saturday afternoon, they will have a live describer sit up in a booth
and speak on a microphone, which people who need it in the audience can then listen on a headset.
I think they have a phone app that they're using now for that purpose.
And then one run showing usually on a Thursday evening, has ASL interpretation as well.
So they have a really good start when it comes to accessibility.
It would be great if more live performing venues had that.
We are trying to get the word out about it and how beneficial it is and how to implement it.
Also, a touch tour is something where
people who may not be able to see clearly what's going on on the stage
can get like a quote, unquote sneak preview,
where they get to go up close and look at and touch either the real or replicas of
some of the costumes, some of the set pieces, some of the props,
maybe get to go on stage before the show and
get a feel for how the set is laid out, what furniture is up there.
I kind of got in informal one of those
when a small community theater was doing a local production of the Nutcracker one year for Christmas.
I knew one of the people that was dancing in the ballet.
So my family was just going kind of to the green room to greet that person.
And while we were in there, we were talking with some of the dancers, and they were
and they were in their leotards. I could see them stretching and warming up and doing some of their moves.
And all the costumes were on hangers, just hanging around,
and they were showing me some of them. And I just thought it was very, very, extremely cool
that I happened to be in the right place at the right time. And it was a somewhat informal thing. So they were
very willing to show me around and show me some of the things that they were going to be using.
Lots of great ideas here for people who are listening to us.
It would be great to have that, like broader. Like to have that
automatically in that kind of settings where there is something happening on stage
that should be, that could be felt by people via touch.
Thank you. I learned something.
Very good. Thank you.
Okay, I have a last question, which is about
people out there who might have inspired you in your own
journey as an artist or people you admire in your life.
If you had one or two people to name, who would it be and why?
The first one that comes to mind, and I know this might be a little cliche because he is so famous,
but famous for a very good reason. I revere him.
Stevie wonder, not only is he
a social justice icon, his songs are about lifting people up, bringing people together,
but he's also a very independent spirit.
So he was on Motown Records for his younger years, his teen years.
And Motown created some amazing and some wonderful records.
However, they definitely had a formula and an idea
of what they wanted their artists to sound like. And Stevie Wonder wanted to
go beyond the formula and expand and open up and do more with his sound.
So when he turned 21, that's when his youth recording contract expired.
And everybody at Motown was expecting him to just automatically re sign a new adult contract.
But what they didn't know is that Stevie Wonder
went to a studio in England. If memory serves me correctly, it was
Jimi Hendrix's Electric Lady(land) studio,
and recorded an album that sounded completely and totally different
from anything he had done prior before and
was definitely going to take his career in a new, broader direction.
And I also admire,
He has a lot - It appears to me that he has a lot of incredible technical skills as well.
When he left Motown,
he wrote songs and arranged them and played many of the parts by himself,
which meant that he not only had to play various different instruments, but also
use various kinds of gear. And back in the day, we didn't have any digital stuff that I was talking about.
He had to use all analog gear.
Which brings me to the part that is the most fun of all.
He had this giant modular synthesizer,
which means that it had various components
that you would connect together, kind of like a Lego set for adults.
You would connect cables from one module to the next.
Kind of the way that telephone operators would connect your calls in the very olden days.
Well, with a modular synthesizer, you had to do that sort of patching
to build your sound.
So he had some components from a company called ARP,
and he also had some components from a company called MOOG
and some other companies thrown in there for the mix. So this giant, giant behemoth
modular synthesizer he had was called TONTO.
And I can't remember what the acronym TONTO stood for,
but I just know that I was
floored and I was blown away. And I said:
if he can do it, then I can do it, too.
And I've recently, in the past year, really gotten into
sound synthesis and learning what all of the big
vocabulary words, the oscillators, the filters, the envelopes, the modulation,
how it all works to craft a completely new, ethereal, otherworldly sound.
That's very cool. Okay, thank you.
Well, unless you have a second artist in mind to present?
I was just going to give another shout out to the Reapers Without Peepers group
and all the work that they're doing to keep the accessibility going
and to encourage other software companies to make their plugins accessible too.
Thank you. Yeah, it's really important.
The more we have there, and the more accessibility we include and increase
in these softwares, on stage, and things like that.
It's one step to a more inclusive society, and we really, really need that in a lot of ways.
Okay, so thank you so much for the conversation that we had today,
and I hope I will have the opportunity to see you sing live one day. [Laughs.]
Thank you.
Thank you so much. Bye.
Bye.
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