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♪ Opening theme music ♪

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Hello, and welcome to this episode
of ArtsAbly in Conversation.

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My name is Diane Kollin.

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The series presents artists, academics,
and project leaders would dedicate their

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time and energy to a better accessibility
for people with disabilities in the arts.

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You can find more of these conversations
on our website, artsably.com,

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which is spelled A-R-T-S-A-B-L-Y dot com

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♪ Theme music ♪

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Today, ArtsAbly is in conversation
with Dr. Stefan Sunandan Honisch,

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a sessional instructor in the 
department of theater and film

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at the University of British Columbia,

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exploring the intersectional fields of
disability studies, music, and pedagogy.

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You can find the resources mentioned by 
Dr. Stefan Sunandan Honisch during this episode

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on ArtsAbly's website in the blog section.

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♪ Franz Schubert's Impromptu No. 3 in G-Flat Major, Andante  ♪

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Thank you very much, Stefan,
for being here today.

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My pleasure.

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So I am with Stefan Sunandan Honisch,
and he is a sessional instructor

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at the department of theater and film
at the University of British Columbia.

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And, I think your research interests,
are at the intersection of

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critical disability studies, music,
and also critical pedagogy, right?

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Yes.
Yeah.

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I'll also maybe just add that
my research, and teaching has,

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within the last several years, also,
expanded to include, theater studies.

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At the moment, I'm teaching a course
on dramaturgy in my department.

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Thank you.
Okay.

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So I know that in UBC, you're also
doing a lot of different

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kinds of research, but you're also a pianist.

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And I wanted to ask you 
about your background,

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everything that came before you 
became a professor at UBC.

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Okay.

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Thanks very much, Diane.

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And also, thank you for
the opportunity to

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discuss my background in piano.

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This is an aspect of my experience

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that has certainly stayed 
with me, all these years.

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So, I began piano lessons at the age of 7.
It's - I don't know, whether this is

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a common experience of getting older, but
I find it easier to remember things that

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happened, you know, 30 plus 
years ago, sometimes,

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than to remember what happened 
the last week or yesterday.

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And the reason I preface with that
is I still remember quite vividly

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seeing a piano recital, on television.

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It was on CBC television.

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It was the pianist Angela Hewitt.

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And I think I started pestering
my parents pretty soon thereafter,

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for piano lessons. And I remember 
also very vividly, coming home -

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My sister and I came home from school.

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We would have been - I would 
have been, I think 6 or 7,

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and my sister, one year younger than me.

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And I heard the sound of a piano,
and it was coming from my room, 

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at my parents' home, and my dad was seated 
at the piano, and just playing a few notes.

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And so, the piano has been 
a continual presence

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ever since in my life, in my 
research, in my teaching,

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And, just,
even if I'm not,

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thinking about the piano and 
piano playing for research

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or teaching, on a given
day or in a given week.

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There is - the piano is -

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I risk sort of veering into sentimentality here, but

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again, maybe there's nothing wrong with,
being sentimental, after a certain age.

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So, the piano for me is is a friend,
a companion.

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And so just having the piano
as this constant presence in my life,

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is something that I treasure, and I 
have my parents to thank for that.

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And for everything else.
Yeah.

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Thank you.
Yeah.

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There is nothing wrong about
being sentimental in any age possible.

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Right.
Yeah.

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So after - so you started piano lessons
and you developed,

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some piano skills, but when did 
you go from the pianist

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to being interested in anything about,
I would say disability studies,

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which is today, but maybe in the years you
started exploring that,

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it was not called disability studies,
it was called something else, 

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or it was not developed yet or something like that.

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So can you can you explain
how you switched from the pianist

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to the researcher, basically?

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Okay. Thanks very much, Diane.

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That's a really interesting question,

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and an important question.

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I think that in terms of my own
experience, there

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there wasn't an abrupt modulation, if you'll forgive
the somewhat overodd musical metaphor.

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There wasn't, an abrupt modulation there -

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I'm going to repeat the overodd
metaphor - from being 

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a student of the piano to being a researcher
of disability and music performance

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or disability and piano performance.

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When I became aware of disability studies,

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this was towards the end
of my master's studies

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in piano performance and composition
at the University of British Columbia.

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My sister sent me an article by Joseph
Straus, one of the first publications in

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the now flourishing field of
music and disability studies.

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And I managed to do
a directed studies program

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in the school of music with
professor Rena Sharon and also

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the support of Professor Jane Coop,

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both of whom, I studied with,
for the course of my master's program,

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and because I wanted to explore
possible applications of disability - 

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of disability studies in piano performance,
and in piano pedagogy as well.

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And so that marked maybe a gentle kind of

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transition, into - from 

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thinking about the piano as a music student
at the time, to thinking about 

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the kinds of research questions I might ask,
about being a disabled pianist.

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And, again, to some extent, this 
might be a common experience for

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at least some disabled scholars 
and disabled musicians.

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As I read more throughout the course of
my graduate work, and began to learn more

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about disability studies, and certainly
about learning - as I began to learn more

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about critical approaches
in disability studies.

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I came to an awareness,
I suppose retrospectively,

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in some sense, that I had spent
my life up to that point trying as much

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as possible to be less disabled or to
try to be as not disabled as possible.

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And becoming aware of 
disability studies as a field 

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about disability activism and so forth,

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highlighted for me that it's actually
possible to not only to accept

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being disabled, as a part 
of one's identity, but,

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to find meaning, richness -
richness, not in the capitalist

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sense of wealth, acquisition, 
but richness, nuance,

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skill, delicacy, beauty, of one kind
or another in being disabled.

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And so that all just to say that I -

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for me, there's been a kind of recursive quality, 

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if I could frame it that way,

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from studying the piano,

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thinking about the piano, at one point,
having aspirations 

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to be a professional pianist,
on one hand, and then, 

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making a fairly smooth transition 

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not for them to bounce,
but relatively smooth, from

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studying the piano as an aspiring
pianist, to moving,

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into research, and teaching.

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Within the large, the capacious umbrella
of disability studies.

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I see.

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And so the, the book that you were
mentioning - the article that you

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were mentioning, it then 
became a book. Right?

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It was "Extraordinary measures"
from Joseph Straus.

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Yes.

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So, yeah, well, you're right.

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One of the first - the first, really
literary, exploration of the intersection

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between the critical disability studies
field and the musical field.

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And then many followed,
but that was really one of the

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really interesting first exploration.

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So this was your master.

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And then, you did a PhD too.

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Right?
I did. Yes.

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And it followed the same
exploration, or did you -  I know you

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you did a post doctoral research about
Helen Keller, But did this was already,

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in your mind when you were doing your
master and your PhD, or how did you,

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how did you segwayed from what you 
were researching to Helen Keller?

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Right. So, if I could just maybe
begin with my PhD studies, because,

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when you were introducing me earlier,
you'd noted that my research interests

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encompass critical pedagogy.

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So the move into the education department

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was in some sense unexpected, but

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certainly productive, in various ways.

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And, so over the course 
of my PhD studies,

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 and working on my dissertation, and so forth.

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I had the opportunity to think about music
from the outside, as it were,

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from the perspective of critical 
approaches in education studies,

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in educational research, that
have taken on cultural -

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that have taken on 
perspectives and methodologies,

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and theoretical insights from cultural
studies, for example, to,

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to forward critiques of,
what it's often called Western Art Music

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or Western classical music, overcharged,
problematic and misleading descriptors.

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to cultural studies approaches or

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sociological approaches in education,
critical pedagogy,

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as a distinct area within
education, for example, all

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share a concern with the ways in which
traditions such as those associated with

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the kinds of formal music pedagogy
of Colleges and Conservatories,

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Universities in North America and Europe.

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Both historically and the interest
of present, have been,

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have participated, in various ways in,
colonizing approaches to

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how we think about music. 
And one complication

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for some of these cultural 
studies critiques, of course,

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is that in recent years,
in the last several decades, let's say,

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because of the new musicology,
and because of the

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entry of critical approaches in music
studies, some of the critiques

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from within education studies,
informed by cultural studies,

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by sociology, by critical 
pedagogy approaches,

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some of those critiques need
updating and refinement.

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And, we can talk more,
if there's opportunity within the scope

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of today's conversation about my - 
how my first book project, 

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grew out of my dissertation research. 
With respect to the question of Helen Keller.

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I'll say maybe two things about my postdoctoral 
research, that might be relevant.

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So, Helen Keller has long fascinated me,
for various reasons, 

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not because of the conventional and, not only
similar, but overly similar stories,

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and croupes, really, 
associated with her life.

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But, because of her her writing. 

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So what drew me first to Helen Keller's work,

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is her writing, just how she writes.

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I happened upon a few excerpts
from some of the writing and I was

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neatly drawn to her writing style.

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And as I began reading some
of her other writings in her books,

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and thanks to my parents and sister,

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I now have a wonderful collection of
work by Helen Keller, including 

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a first edition of one of her books that
my parents and sister went to

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quite some effort to obtain for me.

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And it's one of my treasured books.

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So, also, as I read more of her work,

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I became interested in her activism, 
in her writings about politics,

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her support for workers, and so forth.

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And then also, in all honestly, the 
contested aspects of her life and work, 

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her highly problematic and rightly 
criticized support for eugenics

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is one example, her support for 
what I believe are known

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as sheltered workshops, which exist
to this day, as far as I understand.

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And there are ongoing 
efforts to ensure that 

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or to recognize that the work that 
disabled people do in the workforce 

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should be fairly compensated at the very least.

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So, all of those aspects of 
Helen Keller's life and work,

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the admirable work that she did 
and the not so admirable, 

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thinking that comes across in
some of her work as well,

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make her somebody really
of enduring importance,

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I would say as with so many great
thinkers, so many important

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so many public figures, whose work

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remains of value, in really lasting ways.

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I think the very the fact that 
not everything she wrote,

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or not everything she said or thought,

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is admirable or, fair minded or

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in some cases, not everything
that she wrote is principled.

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I think it's precisely that complexity,
and those moments of ambiguity

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and in her struggle, you know, 
to find and articulate

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an egalitarian politics, I think, you know,
there are many questions 

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that we can continue to ask 
about Helen Keller's work.

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And I think that's precisely what -

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one of the things that I find of such

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sustained interest for for me,

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in thinking about 
Keller's life and work.

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And, just as an aside, I - 
that's what prompted me to apply for

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the Banting Postdoctoral Fellowship program.

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And during the course of my research,
I unexpectedly came across this poem

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by Helen Keller, and that 
remains beyond my postdoc,

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that remains a second key focus
out of the projects that I'm working on.

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There's a a poem Helen Keller wrote
called “A Chant of Darkness”

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and it's been set to music twice, 
at least that I'm aware of,

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including in a setting by the Italian 
American composer Cesare Sodero, 

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in an Italian translation,
“Canto dall’ oscurità."

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And, what I've been hoping to do,

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through - with Banting funding, 

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I was able to hire a graduate 
student to help me with 

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00:26:44,477 --> 00:26:48,940
transcribing the the manuscript, 
full score and parts.

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00:26:48,982 --> 00:26:57,365
And one thing that I'm hoping to do,
and this remains an ongoing project,

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is to have this music performed.

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00:27:01,619 --> 00:27:05,206
I am not aware of any existing recordings.

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00:27:05,248 --> 00:27:12,631
I've had some initial conversations with the 
New York Public Library performing arts division,

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00:27:12,631 --> 00:27:19,262
and they've been immensely helpful.

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00:27:19,304 --> 00:27:27,145
And, they've expressed, initial 
interest in - if I'm able to 

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00:27:27,145 --> 00:27:35,195
have this music performed and recorded, 
they've expressed interest in 

240
00:27:35,195 --> 00:27:39,157
having a recording for their collections, of this music.

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00:27:39,199 --> 00:27:45,038
And, so far as I'm aware,
there is no recording of this work,

242
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:52,796
and there's no published
edition of this music and the,

243
00:27:54,047 --> 00:27:57,217
the reception of Keller's poem,

244
00:27:57,217 --> 00:28:03,348
the circumstances in which she wrote the poem 
and how she thought of this work 

245
00:28:03,348 --> 00:28:06,518
and installation then to Sodero's

246
00:28:06,559 --> 00:28:10,605
setting for voice and orchestra,

247
00:28:10,605 --> 00:28:18,655
I think, offers much to to work with,
both from a pedagogical standpoint

248
00:28:18,655 --> 00:28:22,492
and then also in terms of research.

249
00:28:23,451 --> 00:28:27,330
Very good. I was just going to ask you
the setting of that. You told me

250
00:28:27,372 --> 00:28:30,458
it was voice and orchestra.
Very interesting.

251
00:28:30,458 --> 00:28:33,461
I didn't know at all.
Okay.

252
00:28:33,503 --> 00:28:37,549
And so that was - your Helen Keller work.

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00:28:37,590 --> 00:28:42,637
Are you going to publish something 
about this work?

254
00:28:43,304 --> 00:28:47,642
I'm hoping, certainly I've been

255
00:28:48,643 --> 00:28:56,151
working on developing my research

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00:28:56,401 --> 00:29:00,155
on Helen Keller into published form.

257
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:08,413
Because I'm a sessional lecturer,
I'm doing contract based work so -

258
00:29:08,413 --> 00:29:15,712
and I have my first book under 
contract, which is a priority, and

259
00:29:15,753 --> 00:29:18,757
opportunities come along the way as well.

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00:29:18,757 --> 00:29:24,888
So all of that is to say that,
is it's certainly a priority for me to

261
00:29:24,888 --> 00:29:33,188
take the exploratory work that I did,
during the course of my

262
00:29:33,188 --> 00:29:38,860
postdoctoral research and develop these explorations.

263
00:29:39,027 --> 00:29:43,740
I did some conference
presentations, and so forth.

264
00:29:43,781 --> 00:29:52,749
And I'd like to develop this more fully
into longer publications,

265
00:29:52,790 --> 00:29:55,084
and so forth, certainly.

266
00:29:55,084 --> 00:30:00,840
So speaking of projects that you have,
your book, can you talk about it?

267
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:02,842
Sure.
Thanks, Diane.

268
00:30:02,884 --> 00:30:05,011
So, my book

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00:30:05,011 --> 00:30:08,598
is under contact with the 
University of Michigan Press,

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00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:15,146
and this grows out of my,
doctoral research. And as with

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00:30:16,272 --> 00:30:26,741
I guess many first book projects, it both
starts from the dissertation, but also

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00:30:26,991 --> 00:30:34,666
moves beyond the scope of a dissertation.

273
00:30:34,707 --> 00:30:42,882
So, I became aware of the pianist Nobuyuki Tsujii

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00:30:42,924 --> 00:30:44,843
during the course of my doctoral research,

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00:30:44,843 --> 00:30:49,055
and the timing was fortuitous 
in the sense that 

276
00:30:49,055 --> 00:30:54,185
this was right around the time that I was 
thinking about my dissertation topic,

277
00:30:54,227 --> 00:31:02,443
and when I found out that Nobuyuki Tsujii 
shared the gold medal

278
00:31:02,485 --> 00:31:10,577
at the 2009 Van Cliburn competition,
and that his blindness

279
00:31:10,785 --> 00:31:17,250
constituted a key focus,

280
00:31:17,250 --> 00:31:23,381
almost to the point of the obsession
at times in the press reception

281
00:31:23,423 --> 00:31:29,053
of the 2009 Cliburn competition, I - 

282
00:31:29,053 --> 00:31:34,350
it became clear to me that 
I wanted to pursue this.

283
00:31:34,392 --> 00:31:45,320
The questions raised about disabled
pianists, piano competitions, the

284
00:31:45,361 --> 00:31:53,244
sort of political economy
of musical life, as it were.

285
00:31:53,286 --> 00:32:02,503
And, because of where I live,
and have lived almost continuously

286
00:32:02,545 --> 00:32:05,173
with a two year pause in between, 

287
00:32:05,173 --> 00:32:13,264
at St. John's College, which is a residential
college on the campus of British Columbia,

288
00:32:13,264 --> 00:32:17,685
of the University of British Columbia, 
the Point Grey campus.

289
00:32:17,727 --> 00:32:24,651
Because of where I live,
there's a strong emphasis on 

290
00:32:24,651 --> 00:32:28,071
informal and and non formal 
educational events.

291
00:32:28,112 --> 00:32:34,661
So I was able to work with 
the college staff and faculty

292
00:32:34,661 --> 00:32:38,539
 and fellow residents at the time, this was in 2013,

293
00:32:38,539 --> 00:32:46,172
to bring Nobuyuki Tsujii to the University 
of British Columbia for a solo recital.

294
00:32:46,172 --> 00:32:52,720
He also participated in a 
question and answer session.

295
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:58,726
And, this was all, by that point,

296
00:32:58,768 --> 00:33:04,482
3 or 4 years after his Cliburn victory.

297
00:33:04,482 --> 00:33:12,699
And I had the chance to meet 
with Nobu, as he likes to be called, 

298
00:33:12,699 --> 00:33:21,416
and also Nick Asano, who was traveling with him
at the time, as an assistant and manager.

299
00:33:21,457 --> 00:33:26,838
And I've stayed in touch with both 
of them, throughout the years.

300
00:33:26,879 --> 00:33:33,094
And I interviewed Nobuyuki Tsujii
for my dissertation.

301
00:33:33,094 --> 00:33:41,060
And the questions that I explore about
what it means to be a pianist,

302
00:33:41,102 --> 00:33:46,816
what it means to be marked as a blind
pianist in Nobuyuki Tsujii's case,

303
00:33:46,816 --> 00:33:56,909
and to resist that label, that has also 
helped me for the book project,

304
00:33:56,951 --> 00:34:03,332
which explores discourses of 
virtuosity and disability,

305
00:34:03,833 --> 00:34:10,840
from - within a larger framework,

306
00:34:10,882 --> 00:34:16,179
connected to discourses of vulnerability.

307
00:34:16,763 --> 00:34:20,850
And so the the plan title for 
this book project is

308
00:34:20,850 --> 00:34:27,482
“Vulnerable Virtuosities: Disability 
in Concert and Competition.”

309
00:34:28,107 --> 00:34:33,446
And I was briefly briefly at Uppsala University 
for postdoctoral research

310
00:34:33,446 --> 00:34:42,413
in 2018, part of a research unit
that explores vulnerability,

311
00:34:42,413 --> 00:34:51,547
not as a synonym for weakness and
helplessness and dependency

312
00:34:51,589 --> 00:34:57,261
but as a productive way of being
in the world that makes

313
00:34:57,261 --> 00:35:03,476
a number of ethical and esthetic 
demands that raises questions

314
00:35:03,476 --> 00:35:08,481
about ethical interactions.

315
00:35:08,481 --> 00:35:15,321
And I've also been influenced,

316
00:35:15,321 --> 00:35:22,703
in a sustained way by the work of 
Julietta Singh who, in a 2017 book,

317
00:35:22,745 --> 00:35:29,836
develops the concept of vulnerable
reading, as an interdisciplinary and

318
00:35:29,877 --> 00:35:36,676
improvisatory approach to 
interdisciplinary engagement.

319
00:35:36,717 --> 00:35:45,601
And so that that idea of 
interdisciplinarity of improvisation, 

320
00:35:45,643 --> 00:35:52,108
in one's approach to engaging with variety
of texts, that informs the approach

321
00:35:52,150 --> 00:35:59,323
that I'm hoping to take in the
full length book manuscript.

322
00:35:59,365 --> 00:36:07,164
Did you have the opportunity of finding,
other blind pianists than Nobu and discuss

323
00:36:07,206 --> 00:36:12,420
the differences and if they were able
to participate in piano competitions

324
00:36:12,420 --> 00:36:16,173
and how it affected their,
maybe their career, maybe their

325
00:36:16,215 --> 00:36:19,051
way of learning, things like that.

326
00:36:19,051 --> 00:36:20,553
Yes.

327
00:36:20,595 --> 00:36:23,931
That's a really great question, Diane.

328
00:36:23,931 --> 00:36:30,563
So, when I first began exploring
this topic, as a doctoral candidate,

329
00:36:30,605 --> 00:36:37,528
I reached out to librarians,
to a number of university library,

330
00:36:37,570 --> 00:36:40,698
listservs and so forth. And

331
00:36:42,450 --> 00:36:47,997
with respect to bling pianists,
the names of pianists

332
00:36:48,039 --> 00:36:52,627
who come from the world of jazz,
and popular musical idioms,

333
00:36:52,668 --> 00:36:56,213
those were frequent recommendations.

334
00:36:56,213 --> 00:37:04,347
My interest was and has remained,
because of my own training

335
00:37:04,388 --> 00:37:07,850
and background and experience,

336
00:37:07,850 --> 00:37:14,690
my interest has remained more firmly
within, I guess what's called

337
00:37:14,732 --> 00:37:19,737
the classical music world.

338
00:37:19,737 --> 00:37:29,830
And so I've been able to find a number
of historical examples, and,

339
00:37:29,997 --> 00:37:37,505
examples going, I would say as far back
as Maria Theresia Paradis, 

340
00:37:37,505 --> 00:37:46,555
who I believe started with Mozart, and was favorably
reviewed by Charles Burney and others.

341
00:37:46,597 --> 00:37:56,190
And the historical example of 
Paradis and her life and work

342
00:37:56,190 --> 00:38:04,490
brings into the exploration, 
questions of of gender,

343
00:38:04,490 --> 00:38:13,207
how gender and disability intersect,
in terms of lived experience,

344
00:38:13,249 --> 00:38:16,627
and professional activities
and professional opportunities.

345
00:38:16,669 --> 00:38:21,215
And then also, of course, in terms
of critical and popular reception.

346
00:38:21,215 --> 00:38:28,931
So, one of the sort of unifying threads

347
00:38:28,973 --> 00:38:37,398
if I can phrase it that way, in these various 
case studies that I'm exploring for the book,

348
00:38:37,398 --> 00:38:42,069
has to do with the
 juxtaposition or the -

349
00:38:42,069 --> 00:38:47,742
and the friction 
very often between,

350
00:38:49,410 --> 00:38:57,877
lived experience of disability, lived experience 
as a disabled pianist for example, and then,

351
00:38:57,877 --> 00:39:01,714
the kinds of discourses that are mobilized

352
00:39:01,756 --> 00:39:08,054
in critical and popular reception,
very often replete with cliches

353
00:39:08,054 --> 00:39:16,979
about blindness but then also,
critical and popular reception,

354
00:39:17,021 --> 00:39:25,404
documents and texts certainly can offer
something much more interesting than

355
00:39:25,446 --> 00:39:28,074
cliches and and and tropes.

356
00:39:28,115 --> 00:39:36,832
So all of that is, I think, worth
thinking through and thinking with.

357
00:39:36,874 --> 00:39:44,215
And just, apropos or, in relation 
to my book project,

358
00:39:44,215 --> 00:39:49,804
if I can mention one other
activity connected,

359
00:39:49,845 --> 00:39:57,436
a fairly recent activity
connected to my book, which

360
00:39:57,478 --> 00:40:06,153
I was able to organize, this was
during the first lockdowns,

361
00:40:06,195 --> 00:40:13,577
after the WHO declared the COVID pandemic.
So, a lot of activities,

362
00:40:13,577 --> 00:40:18,416
research activities and so
forth were moving online.

363
00:40:18,457 --> 00:40:25,631
So, with the support of a seed grant from the 
interdisciplinary histories research cluster at UBC, 

364
00:40:25,631 --> 00:40:33,931
I was able to bring Debra Saylor, a pianist, 
teacher and singer, based in the US, 

365
00:40:34,557 --> 00:40:42,022
to join UBC via zoom for a 
guest lecture on her work

366
00:40:42,064 --> 00:40:50,156
and on her own success in the Van Cliburn 
competition for outstanding amateurs.

367
00:40:50,156 --> 00:40:57,997
And encountering Debra Saylor's playing 
and how she thinks and talks about music.

368
00:40:59,039 --> 00:41:06,714
has provided an expanded sense of
possibility in terms of my own thinking

369
00:41:06,714 --> 00:41:15,472
about the meeting of vulnerability
and virtuality in performance.

370
00:41:15,514 --> 00:41:21,103
So that workshop, which was recorded on Zoom,

371
00:41:21,604 --> 00:41:26,817
 is one of the ace studies,

372
00:41:26,817 --> 00:41:30,738
as it were, that I explore for my book.

373
00:41:30,738 --> 00:41:36,869
A number of recommendations 
also came from librarians,

374
00:41:36,869 --> 00:41:41,999
at various universities,
who directed me to

375
00:41:42,208 --> 00:41:50,132
published research that
doesn't necessarily focus on

376
00:41:50,758 --> 00:41:58,098
high profile blind pianists 
or disabled musicians,

377
00:41:58,098 --> 00:42:05,564
but instead is based on
empirical research involving case studies,

378
00:42:05,606 --> 00:42:10,194
participant observation 
with disabled musicians,

379
00:42:11,570 --> 00:42:17,493
who don't necessarily maintain
an international

380
00:42:18,953 --> 00:42:26,502
performing career, but who are very active
in community music settings,

381
00:42:26,794 --> 00:42:28,671
and so forth.

382
00:42:28,712 --> 00:42:34,760
And, again, if there's time,

383
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:41,183
this latter connection between
the work that disabled positions do and

384
00:42:41,225 --> 00:42:49,024
community spaces and so forth,
that don't have the visibility,

385
00:42:49,066 --> 00:42:56,198
really, of international,
piano competitions or of the

386
00:42:56,240 --> 00:42:58,909
international concert circuit.

387
00:42:58,951 --> 00:43:04,540
This has become an important aspect
of my work, because of 

388
00:43:04,581 --> 00:43:14,466
my participation in some SHRCC [Social Sciences 
and Humanities] funded projects that I was invited

389
00:43:14,508 --> 00:43:17,928
to join, towards the end of my postdoc.

390
00:43:18,345 --> 00:43:27,229
There was, one resource which 
a UBC Music librarian pointed me to,

391
00:43:27,229 --> 00:43:32,109
it is a printed general reference 
source piano in concert.

392
00:43:32,109 --> 00:43:35,070
I think it was published in 1982.

393
00:43:35,070 --> 00:43:43,495
And I was able to find short entries for historical 
examples of a number of blind pianists.

394
00:43:43,495 --> 00:43:49,960
And because my specific interest
at that time was blind pianists,

395
00:43:50,044 --> 00:43:53,839
I wanted to find examples of other 
blind pianists who had participated

396
00:43:53,881 --> 00:43:56,717
in international piano competitions.

397
00:43:56,759 --> 00:44:04,767
My initial search was narrowed, 
in some way, to

398
00:44:04,767 --> 00:44:14,026
specifically blind pianists and more specifically
in concerts and competition life.

399
00:44:14,026 --> 00:44:21,575
And so, I became aware within 
the first couple of years

400
00:44:21,575 --> 00:44:34,254
of 6 or 7 pianists, in particular 
who, in some cases, 

401
00:44:34,254 --> 00:44:40,552
had passed away, several decades previously.

402
00:44:40,552 --> 00:44:47,601
And there are some examples of 
younger pianists who are still active.

403
00:44:47,643 --> 00:44:58,362
The French pianist Bernard d’Ascoli, for example.
And I also reached out to the -

404
00:44:58,404 --> 00:45:05,536
there's a wonderful reference
on piano competitions specifically.

405
00:45:05,577 --> 00:45:11,208
So I reached out to the 
Alink and Argerich Foundation

406
00:45:11,208 --> 00:45:15,921
and I corresponded briefly with Dr. Gustav Alink

407
00:45:15,921 --> 00:45:22,678
who was most helpful 
in directing me to 

408
00:45:22,678 --> 00:45:28,100
not only specific entries that I might 
otherwise have not realized, 

409
00:45:28,100 --> 00:45:32,229
included blind pianists who

410
00:45:32,229 --> 00:45:39,486
won distinct or who achieved distinction
in a given competition in a given year.

411
00:45:39,528 --> 00:45:42,781
But then also, he,

412
00:45:45,117 --> 00:45:59,965
directed me to magazines and 
newspapers in European context

413
00:46:00,007 --> 00:46:03,427
that I might also have not been aware of.

414
00:46:03,469 --> 00:46:09,057
So all of that is to say that, because of
my own specific interests, 

415
00:46:09,057 --> 00:46:15,314
that I in some sense narrowed 
down relatively quickly,

416
00:46:15,606 --> 00:46:22,112
I was able to find specific examples
of blind pianists active as teachers,

417
00:46:22,112 --> 00:46:24,907
as concept pianists, and as jurors.

418
00:46:24,907 --> 00:46:32,998
One pianist I particularly 
interested in is Alberto Mozzati, 

419
00:46:32,998 --> 00:46:42,966
who, as far as I know, didn't himself - I think he
competed in one or two competitions and

420
00:46:43,008 --> 00:46:50,265
achieved some success, but he was quite
active as as a juror at competitions,

421
00:46:50,265 --> 00:46:59,608
and then also, he produced a number
of just really wonderful recordings

422
00:46:59,650 --> 00:47:02,486
of music by Chopin and other composers.

423
00:47:02,528 --> 00:47:08,492
And YouTube has become

424
00:47:08,534 --> 00:47:13,205
just a really fantastic
resource in many ways,

425
00:47:13,247 --> 00:47:17,960
because it means that 
a great many recordings,

426
00:47:18,418 --> 00:47:23,006
and live performances
that might otherwise be

427
00:47:23,257 --> 00:47:29,429
difficult to access are readily available. 
Because of my disability,

428
00:47:29,429 --> 00:47:35,727
it's not possible for me to travel extensively 
around Europe, for example,

429
00:47:35,727 --> 00:47:42,442
or for that matter around North America,
to dig up archival materials and so forth.

430
00:47:42,484 --> 00:47:50,117
So, having, a number
of resources available open access,

431
00:47:50,158 --> 00:47:56,415
or relatively easy to access,
makes a huge difference for my research.

432
00:47:56,456 --> 00:48:03,297
So what about this section that is covered by SSHRC [Social Sciences and 
Humanities funding] that you just mentioned? Can you talk about about that?

433
00:48:03,338 --> 00:48:17,394
You and I have also collaborated and been involved in some of 
the same events, through these SSHRC funded projects.

434
00:48:17,978 --> 00:48:25,902
Towards the end of my postdoc, I received an email 
from Adam Bell, who's now at Western University,

435
00:48:25,944 --> 00:48:28,322
as a Canada research chair.

436
00:48:28,363 --> 00:48:39,499
And Adam invited me to join these SSHRC 
funded projects that he was working on.

437
00:48:39,499 --> 00:48:45,130
And these have to do with disability
in educational settings,

438
00:48:45,172 --> 00:48:48,425
in community settings.

439
00:48:48,425 --> 00:48:56,642
So there's the Canadian Accessible Musical 
Instruments Network, or CAMIN, that's the acronym.

440
00:48:56,642 --> 00:49:01,897
And I'm a co applicant in that project.

441
00:49:01,938 --> 00:49:05,442
And, so this -

442
00:49:05,442 --> 00:49:10,864
and my participation 
in both, is made possible

443
00:49:10,864 --> 00:49:19,623
by through the support of St. John's College, 
which is supporting my participation in both

444
00:49:21,917 --> 00:49:27,255
of these projects because I don't have 
a permanent academic appointment.

445
00:49:28,090 --> 00:49:39,559
So being able to live and work at 
St. John's College provides me with

446
00:49:39,559 --> 00:49:48,068
the scope that I - and the kinds of resources

447
00:49:48,068 --> 00:49:53,657
that support my participation 
in these projects.

448
00:49:53,949 --> 00:50:00,372
The second SSHRC funded project
is connected to the first, and this is

449
00:50:00,372 --> 00:50:07,546
something that Adam invited me
to work with him, on as a co director.

450
00:50:07,546 --> 00:50:12,843
So this is a SSHRC race, gender, 
diversity initiative project, 

451
00:50:12,843 --> 00:50:17,973
facilitating anti ableist remote music making or,

452
00:50:17,973 --> 00:50:26,481
the acronym sounds like farm FAARMM.

453
00:50:26,523 --> 00:50:34,573
And the the common thread between
both of these projects has to do with

454
00:50:35,282 --> 00:50:41,747
the work and the knowledge and the skills
of disabled musicians working in a range

455
00:50:41,788 --> 00:50:50,797
of settings in context, including in the
community, in online and hybrid formats.

456
00:50:50,839 --> 00:50:58,180
And most projects support the exploration of 

457
00:50:58,180 --> 00:51:04,186
design work led by disabled people, to create opportunities 

458
00:51:04,186 --> 00:51:08,523
for designing instruments and 
ways of making music that are 

459
00:51:08,523 --> 00:51:13,987
accessible in ways that familiar 
instruments often aren't.

460
00:51:15,572 --> 00:51:20,035
And then also opportunities
for collaboration for music making

461
00:51:20,077 --> 00:51:29,377
for thinking and researching music,
in online and hybrid formats 

462
00:51:29,377 --> 00:51:36,760
that also support increased participation 
by disabled people, because

463
00:51:36,802 --> 00:51:42,307
in so many ways, strictly in person events

464
00:51:42,808 --> 00:51:48,230
can present any number of obstacles

465
00:51:48,230 --> 00:51:51,900
to the participation of disabled people.

466
00:51:52,776 --> 00:51:59,533
And these are important projects because
there is such a lack of - of these,

467
00:51:59,533 --> 00:52:02,786
the presence of these projects in our field.

468
00:52:02,786 --> 00:52:08,333
And we know of projects that
have a specific aim and then

469
00:52:08,333 --> 00:52:14,631
its ends such as conferences or such
as symposiums that are really great

470
00:52:14,673 --> 00:52:17,384
because that's where we meet each other.

471
00:52:17,425 --> 00:52:20,804
But there is a struggle
of continuing the work after that.

472
00:52:20,846 --> 00:52:24,141
So thank you for, being
part of these projects.

473
00:52:24,182 --> 00:52:26,226
It's really important.

474
00:52:26,476 --> 00:52:28,311
Thank you so much, Diane.

475
00:52:28,311 --> 00:52:36,361
And I I also want to echo your thanks,
and offer my thanks to you,

476
00:52:36,403 --> 00:52:39,823
for the work that you're doing.

477
00:52:41,324 --> 00:52:46,997
Most recently, your 
presentation on ArtsAbly

478
00:52:46,997 --> 00:52:55,213
for John's College and the work that you're leading to

479
00:52:55,839 --> 00:53:01,636
create opportunities, and 
bring increased awareness of

480
00:53:01,678 --> 00:53:08,852
the work that we're all doing as disabled
colleagues, as musical colleagues,

481
00:53:09,186 --> 00:53:17,903
and the ways in which being disabled
musicians also connects us in these

482
00:53:17,944 --> 00:53:21,323
networks of collegiality
and collaboration.

483
00:53:21,364 --> 00:53:26,661
I'm most grateful to you for
the work that you're leading.

484
00:53:26,661 --> 00:53:29,247
Thank you so much.

485
00:53:29,247 --> 00:53:31,875
I have a question that I like to ask.

486
00:53:31,875 --> 00:53:41,551
It's about, the the meaning of working
in arts and promoting accessibility.

487
00:53:41,551 --> 00:53:46,139
And I like to ask people,
what do you - what is your -

488
00:53:46,932 --> 00:53:53,939
what does it mean for you to work in,
in a field of accessibility in the arts?

489
00:53:56,274 --> 00:53:59,152
I really love this question.

490
00:53:59,152 --> 00:54:03,949
It's not one that is necessarily 
easy to answer.

491
00:54:03,949 --> 00:54:08,161
And I think that's one of 
the reasons I really like it.

492
00:54:08,203 --> 00:54:18,797
So for me, working on access, 
trying to support access, to

493
00:54:18,838 --> 00:54:22,884
come to increased awareness of 
my own access needs, 

494
00:54:22,884 --> 00:54:34,187
and to learn how to support the access 
needs of colleagues, friends,

495
00:54:34,562 --> 00:54:40,068
and students,

496
00:54:40,068 --> 00:54:48,326
in a range of learning environments,
professional environments, and so forth.

497
00:54:49,077 --> 00:54:56,418
What that means for me is
attending to the ways in which

498
00:54:56,626 --> 00:55:00,964
the disability study -
the disability justice

499
00:55:01,006 --> 00:55:10,890
principle of collective access offers
a particularly bright guiding star,

500
00:55:10,932 --> 00:55:20,984
as it were, but also the 
recognition that thinking

501
00:55:21,192 --> 00:55:28,658
at all times about possible ways
in which access needs of different people

502
00:55:29,367 --> 00:55:32,954
might be in tension

503
00:55:32,954 --> 00:55:36,458
with one another.

504
00:55:36,791 --> 00:55:43,798
And further, and at the same time, 
recognizing that,

505
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:51,765
when faced with the
reality or prospect of

506
00:55:52,015 --> 00:55:58,438
conflicting or incongruous access needs 
of different people 

507
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:05,236
in a given context,
the responsibility is not to

508
00:56:05,695 --> 00:56:10,116
as is unfortunately done far 
too often, to try to

509
00:56:10,158 --> 00:56:14,037
establish a hierarchy of which 
access needs are more important.

510
00:56:14,037 --> 00:56:19,084
This is the sort of neoliberal way.

511
00:56:21,795 --> 00:56:30,053
And it has to do with so many 
aspects of this sort of 

512
00:56:30,053 --> 00:56:37,393
rhetoric of scarce resources,
which is, in many ways manufactured.

513
00:56:37,393 --> 00:56:44,400
The resources aren't scarce, the way 
the economy is organized makes it really 

514
00:56:45,443 --> 00:56:52,117
well nigh impossible for so many people to
get the kinds of support that they need.

515
00:56:52,158 --> 00:57:00,792
And I mentioned all this because,
the responsibility, for those of us

516
00:57:00,792 --> 00:57:10,510
who work on accessibility in the arts,
and on supporting access, in

517
00:57:11,261 --> 00:57:13,346
hopefully transformative ways.

518
00:57:13,346 --> 00:57:21,104
The responsibility is always to figure out 
how to work with individuals,

519
00:57:21,146 --> 00:57:31,322
in ways that support all access needs as
fully and as ethically and as responsibly,

520
00:57:31,364 --> 00:57:38,663
as we are capable of doing without,

521
00:57:41,458 --> 00:57:49,591
not only without giving credence 
to the neoliberal hierarchies and

522
00:57:49,591 --> 00:57:57,932
sort of tokenistic approaches to, you know,
reasonable accommodation, and so forth.

523
00:57:57,974 --> 00:58:03,730
Not only refusing to give credence to that,

524
00:58:03,771 --> 00:58:12,906
to those harmful discourses 
and practices, but also to -

525
00:58:13,656 --> 00:58:21,831
to show what we are offering that is
an alternative, a genuinely inclusive,

526
00:58:21,831 --> 00:58:31,341
ethical, and dialogical, and,

527
00:58:31,591 --> 00:58:37,764
solidaristic approach to access.

528
00:58:38,097 --> 00:58:40,141
Yes, it makes sense. And it's really -

529
00:58:40,183 --> 00:58:44,521
We - Everybody has a different access need.

530
00:58:44,562 --> 00:58:44,938
Right.

531
00:58:44,979 --> 00:58:53,154
So this is also something that, to have
a broader openness on access needs

532
00:58:53,196 --> 00:58:54,906
and accessibility in general,

533
00:58:54,906 --> 00:59:00,036
is something that is coming more
and more, but still not here fully.

534
00:59:00,036 --> 00:59:00,370
Right.

535
00:59:00,370 --> 00:59:03,206
And so, yeah, that's, 
that's really important.

536
00:59:03,248 --> 00:59:05,333
Yeah.
Thank you.

537
00:59:05,416 --> 00:59:07,085
Thank you so much, Diane.

538
00:59:07,126 --> 00:59:13,341
So I have the last question before we
conclude our conversation, which is about,

539
00:59:13,383 --> 00:59:19,764
inspiration, or about someone that you would,

540
00:59:19,806 --> 00:59:24,143
that you would envision or think of when
you're thinking of your own work, 

541
00:59:24,143 --> 00:59:30,400
someone who maybe have guided you to where 
you are today or just someone that you admire.

542
00:59:30,441 --> 00:59:33,653
Who would that person be?

543
00:59:34,112 --> 00:59:36,739
Thanks for the question.

544
00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:43,871
The two people I think of 
right away are my parents.

545
00:59:44,831 --> 00:59:49,711
And they're example,

546
00:59:49,711 --> 00:59:55,049
they're examples of generosity

547
00:59:55,049 --> 01:00:00,430
of kindness, compassion, hospitality.

548
01:00:02,307 --> 01:00:09,647
And I know they might be amused by this

549
01:00:09,689 --> 01:00:14,027
in some way, if they hear this

550
01:00:14,027 --> 01:00:20,116
part of my response, but my own 
commitment to egalitarianism,

551
01:00:20,158 --> 01:00:25,163
to egalitarian politics, to critiques of

552
01:00:26,789 --> 01:00:32,545
the - to the practices of capitalism.

553
01:00:33,588 --> 01:00:40,178
All of this is inspired by my parents,

554
01:00:40,511 --> 01:00:45,433
because of what I have learned from them

555
01:00:45,475 --> 01:00:51,105
over the years and what I continue
to learn from them about what it means

556
01:00:51,272 --> 01:00:59,822
to recognize the right of everybody
to have enough to eat,

557
01:00:59,864 --> 01:01:02,617
to have a roof over their head.

558
01:01:02,659 --> 01:01:07,330
My parents have always 

559
01:01:07,330 --> 01:01:12,043
shown my sister and me 

560
01:01:12,043 --> 01:01:15,963
such care and support

561
01:01:16,297 --> 01:01:24,347
and have always, made sure that we
not only have, enough to eat, but 

562
01:01:24,347 --> 01:01:29,977
more than we could possibly imagine.

563
01:01:30,019 --> 01:01:35,024
So that kind of boundless generosity

564
01:01:35,066 --> 01:01:42,532
and that example of what it means to

565
01:01:42,782 --> 01:01:52,208
be committed to the well-being of others, 
that continues to guide me.

566
01:01:52,792 --> 01:02:00,633
And both my parents are
deeply interested in the arts

567
01:02:00,633 --> 01:02:03,719
in literature, in music.

568
01:02:03,761 --> 01:02:11,936
My mom's knowledge of and enthusiasm

569
01:02:11,978 --> 01:02:16,399
for the classical and folk traditions

570
01:02:16,441 --> 01:02:20,528
of India and Pakistan and Bangladesh, 

571
01:02:20,528 --> 01:02:28,536
that continues to inspire me 
and to guide my own

572
01:02:29,328 --> 01:02:32,039
participation in the arts.

573
01:02:32,081 --> 01:02:37,879
And my dad, my dad is an artist.

574
01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:47,722
And I am hoping for the book, 
for my book to use one of his paintings.

575
01:02:48,097 --> 01:02:56,522
And he was a very generous
about right away giving me permission

576
01:02:56,564 --> 01:03:02,069
to use his painting for my book cover.

577
01:03:02,069 --> 01:03:07,825
And so I'm certainly hoping to do this, 
which will depend on the publisher's approval.

578
01:03:07,825 --> 01:03:14,999
And as I work on the book manuscript, 

579
01:03:14,999 --> 01:03:19,086
I find moments, you know, to,

580
01:03:19,128 --> 01:03:26,219
look at my dad's painting and that also
remains a constant inspiration -

581
01:03:26,219 --> 01:03:29,388
source of inspiration for me.

582
01:03:29,388 --> 01:03:31,974
Thank you very much. It's great.

583
01:03:31,974 --> 01:03:37,605
I mean, I - family support
is such an important point.

584
01:03:37,647 --> 01:03:41,609
So I'm glad to hear that.
Yeah.

585
01:03:41,609 --> 01:03:49,659
It's no exaggeration to say that I
wouldn't be here without my parents,

586
01:03:49,659 --> 01:03:53,329
like, in so many ways.

587
01:03:53,371 --> 01:04:00,044
Like, I wouldn't be able to do the work
that I do without my parents.

588
01:04:00,753 --> 01:04:04,715
Well, thank you very much
for our conversation today.

589
01:04:04,715 --> 01:04:08,344
It's really inspiring. And I'm 
really looking forward to 

590
01:04:08,803 --> 01:04:12,306
speaking with you again in different 
contexts because I'm sure we're gonna 

591
01:04:12,306 --> 01:04:15,184
have some projects again in the future,

592
01:04:15,184 --> 01:04:18,479
common projects,
but also reading about,

593
01:04:18,521 --> 01:04:21,440
reading your book and reading 
about the progress 

594
01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:24,443
that's gonna lead to the publication.

595
01:04:24,986 --> 01:04:26,988
Thank you so much, Diane.

596
01:04:27,029 --> 01:04:36,956
It's really great to be with you and
to explore these ideas

597
01:04:36,956 --> 01:04:40,710
and topics of shared interest.

598
01:04:40,710 --> 01:04:43,963
Thank you so much.
And talk soon.

599
01:04:43,963 --> 01:04:47,216
Yes, talk to you soon.

600
01:04:47,300 --> 01:04:48,342
Yeah.

601
01:04:48,384 --> 01:04:52,013
And I hope that that you
have a good day ahead.

602
01:04:52,054 --> 01:04:53,222
You too.
Thanks.

603
01:04:53,222 --> 01:04:55,433
Bye, Stefan.
Okay. Bye.

604
01:04:56,517 --> 01:05:01,939
♪ Closing theme music ♪