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♪ Opening theme music ♪

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Hello, and welcome to this episode
of ArtsAbly in Conversation.

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My name is Diane Kolin.

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This series presents artists, academics,
and project leaders who dedicate

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their time and energy to a better accessibility
for people with disabilities in the arts.

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You can find more of these episodes
on our website, artsably.com

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which is spelled 
A-R-T-S-A-B-L-Y dot com.

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♪ Theme music ♪

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Today, ArtsAbly is in conversation
with Rory McLeod,

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Artistic and Executive Director 
of Xenia Concerts,

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an organization that improves 
access to concerts 

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to audiences with autism
and other kinds of disabilities.

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For lots of music lovers,

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their favorite way to experience
music is live in concert.

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But not everyone can
access live arts events.

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Sometimes there are physical, financial,
social, and other barriers in the way.

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From getting information to buying
a ticket to accessing the venue

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and enjoying the concert environment,
All of these can create hurdles,

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especially for neurodivergent,
deaf, and disabled folks.

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But it doesn't have to be that way.

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At Xenia Concerts, we work hard 
to meet your accessibility needs

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so that you can enjoy amazing 
live musical experiences 

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with incredible musicians 
in an environment 

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where your needs are met 
and you can be yourself.

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All of our concerts are family friendly,

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and we welcome neurodivergent, disabled,
deaf, and hard-of-hearing attendees.

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We call them adaptive concerts because
they're designed to adapt to your needs.

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Xenia concerts take place in 
wheelchair accessible venues,

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set up so that you can move around freely,

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take a quiet break,
or even dance along to the music.

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Our venue guides show you what to expect

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and give you important
accessibility information.

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We also provide other supports like fidget
toys, therapy dogs,

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musical ASL interpretation,
and visual aids at many of our concerts.

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Whatever your needs, whatever your age,
and however you express yourself,

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we want you to relax and enjoy the music
when you're at a Xenia concert.

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As one of our guests told us,

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it's an amazing experience
for the whole family.

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Just be yourself.

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To learn more about our upcoming events

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or to join our mailing list,
visit xeniaconcert.com.

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See you soon.

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♪ Violin music ♪

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The mission of Xenia Concerts is to provide

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music and arts performances
and presentations in an environment

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that is welcoming of people
who may not be able to attend

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other events due to mental,
financial, or physical barriers.

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For example, we present sensory friendly
concerts that welcome children

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and families affected
by autism spectrum disorder.

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We also present concerts that are

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accessible for people
living with dementia.

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Any community that self identifies as not
having equal access to the arts

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is a community that we want to work with
to create accessible arts opportunities.

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♪ Violin and piano music ♪

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We take for granted, I think,
the ability to just show up somewhere

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and have an experience and to have
an artistic evening.

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And not everyone can actually do that.

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I absolutely loved it.

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I said to my friend, I could stay
another hour and listen to this.

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It was beautiful.

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I was really hoping that 
our Sunshine seniors

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would be able to
forget about their problems 

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for an hour or so and enjoy the music,
get lost in the music.

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And I think that we achieved that.
Everybody just looked on a level of bliss.

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It is very much the big issue is 
no two people are alike 

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in terms of what the sensitivities are 
or how to react to them.

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The set up here has been nice.
Although we've never had to use it,

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just knowing that there's a quiet area 
around the corner, for instance, is a big plus.

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I think the second concert we came to,
in one of the feedback forms realized

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that the washrooms, for instance,
have blow dryers, 

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which is a horror show for some 
of the kids going in,

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they can't tolerate them.

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It was mentioned in the feedback form.
Next concert, and since then,

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there's always been paper towels laid out.
So they've been very conscious

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of to some of the sensitivities
of the audience 

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to try and mitigate a lot of 
the things that will bother them.

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Responding to accessibility issues

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that our audience members might have is
really at the core of what Xenia does.

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In a way, we are a specialty arts curator.

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When we hear from a family 
or another person that 

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there's an aspect of our concert that 
is not that welcoming for them and 

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may not be welcoming
for others as well, we fix it right away.

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We're happy to do that.

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That is what makes our concerts work
and what makes that makes them successful.

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For me as a performer,

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the whole point of what I do is to connect
with an audience through the music,

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and I want to be able to do
that with as many people as possible.

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And there's so many ways 
to listen to music, and

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it's great that we all have this formal 
concert setting where everyone is very quiet 

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and we just kind of 
listen in reverence.

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But it's also great to 
just be able to move 

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or feel that you can say 
anything you want

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in response or act however you
want in response to the music.

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And these concerts give a forum for that.

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♪ String quartet music ♪

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[Audience clapping]

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Okay, thank you for being here today.

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I'm here with Rory McLeod
from Xenia Concerts.

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You're the Executive Director
and Artistic Director of Xenia Concerts.

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That's right.
Yeah.

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We are a concert series that works with the 
neurodiversity and disability communities 

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to redesign concert experiences 
and make them more inclusive

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and accessible for people who face
barriers to attending typical events.

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Okay, thank you.
So when did Xenia concert start?

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Xenia concert started back in 2014,
2015, with the Cecilia String Quartet.

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They were inspired by performing
in an autism friendly concert in the US,

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and they decided that they wanted
to bring that experience to Canada.

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So initially, it was a few concerts 
run by a string quartet, 

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and their focus really was
on the autism community, specifically.

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And what they did that I really admire is
that they spent about a year consulting

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with people with lived experience,
with health care experts,

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with caregivers of people living
with autism,

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to design the most autism
friendly experience they could.

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So they started with a series of,

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I think it was three concerts in their
first year,

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partnered with what is now Meridian Hall,
what at the time was the Sony Center.

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And it's been growing ever since.

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The response was so positive 
to these concerts that 

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we now present
upwards of 30 concerts per year.

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And so behind the concerts,
what activities do you lead in Xenia?

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Yeah, so we've stayed true to that - 
that initial approach 

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of being very engaged with the 
communities that we work with.

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And so a big part of our work is

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is actually working with people 
with lived experience 

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and incorporating their suggestions,

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their design recommendations into - 

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into what we do.

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We've doubled down on 
that approach recently 

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by developing a couple of really robust 
frameworks for community engagement,

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one of which was the ASD Youth Advisory Council,
which we ran last year,

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where we formed a council of five
autistic youth aged 14 to 24.

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And they basically ran their own meetings

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to develop design recommendations
and designed their own

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autism friendly concert,
specifically for youth of their age group.

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And we'll be presenting
those later this year.

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The first one is on July 13th at Meridian Hall, 

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our first concert designed by 
and for autistic youth.

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And the other community 
engagement framework 

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that we've developed
under the leadership of our

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Accessibility Coordinator, Kayla Carter,
is called the Accessibility Accelerator.

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And that is a co-design project
in which we're working with six people

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who identify as either
neurodivergent or disabled or both.

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And they are working together over
the course of about 18 months

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to discuss barriers to access in the arts,
not just for audiences,

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but also for arts workers,
and then develop resources

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and design recommendations
that Xenia Concerts can

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employ in our own concert designs and also
share with the broader arts community.

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I see.

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And so there is a big
team in Xenia right now.

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We have four staff members, but our
team extends way beyond that, of course.

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So we've got a board of directors
with eight very dedicated individuals.

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We also partner with a lot of different
community organizations.

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So although our core team consists of four

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staff, myself working full-time
and three half-time employees, we also...

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I mean, I think of our community as
extending to hundreds of people, really,

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including all of the attendees
and the caregivers who give feedback

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on their experiences,
including our partners in the 

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Alzheimer's and Dementia space
and in the 

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neurodiversity
and disability space.

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And also, of course,
all the artists that we work with.

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In the last...

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I've been with the organization for 
two and a half years now,

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and over that time,

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I would estimate that we've worked
with between 50 and 60 different musicians, 

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and they're a big part
of our team as well, of course.

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And I wanted to ask
a little bit about yourself.

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What is your background?

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So my background, first of all,

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I think it's worth mentioning
that I come to this work as an ally.

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I don't consider myself or don't currently
identify as neurodivergent or disabled.

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And although I do have a - 
an autoimmune disorder that is

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at times disabling, I don't currently
identify as disabled.

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So I come at it with
a background in music.

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I play the viola.

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And so I'm trained in classical,
Western classical music tradition.

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And I also have about 10,

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11 years now of concert design
and promotion and presenting experience.

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Back in 2013, I started a series 
called Pocket Concerts, 

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which I now run with my 
partner in life, Emily Rho.

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And the purpose of that 
concert series was really 

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to bring chamber music and small
ensembles into alternative venues,

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homes - mostly homes, but also offices and
cafés, and places like that,

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where people feel at ease and can enjoy a - 

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a concert in a more personal - 
with a more personal approach,

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have the opportunity to interact
directly with the artists.

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We always had some food
and wine at those events.

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So - but I didn't really think 
of myself as a designer 

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until maybe three, four years ago 
when I realized, 

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oh, that's actually what we're doing,
as we're designing experiences.

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And so I take that background in concert
design and production

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and bring an accessibility and inclusion
lens to it at Xenia Concerts.

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So to help with that work, I actually did
a year of studies in inclusive design

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at OCAD University,
still on a leave of absence from that.

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And I hope to complete it at some point.

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But sometimes you have to
prioritize one thing over another.

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And currently, Xenia Concerts 
is my top priority.

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Okay, Thank you.

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I don't know whether I
missed anything in there.

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I mean, I have quite a bit of experience

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as a performer as well, as a violist
in orchestral and chamber music settings.

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So I'm quite familiar with that,
especially the classical music world.

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And because of that, some of the barriers
and problems that exist within that world.

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So you're still performing?

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Yes, I do still play
with the Canadian Opera Company Orchestra,

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with the National Ballet Orchestra,
and in chamber music settings,

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and the odd gig that comes
up here and there.

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Okay.

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I wanted to come back to Xenia.

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I know you're preparing
your concerts in your season.

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Right now, we are way inside the season,

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but can you talk about your upcoming
concerts and maybe one that you want

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to describe a little bit
more than the others?

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Sure.
So the next...

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Well, we have two really
exciting concerts coming up.

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The first one is our first concert
in Vancouver,

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which we're doing in partnership with the Vancouver 
School of Music, the VSO School of Music 

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and Muse West.

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And that's on April seventh,

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features a jazz trio of musicians who all are 

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on the faculty at the VSO School of Music 
and very active in the Vancouver community.

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They're called Triology.

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And we're working with them 
to develop a program 

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that's about an hour long,
neurodiversity and disability friendly.

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And we'll have a host of sensory supports

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and accessibility aids at that concert
at Pyatt Hall at the VSO School of Music

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on April seventh,
which is a Sunday morning.

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Then our next

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concert that's part of our flagship series
here in Toronto at Meridian Hall 

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on April 27th, we're bringing in a fantastic folk
singer-songwriter named Raine Hamilton.

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Raine is performing with a string trio,
so she herself plays guitar and violin.

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She works with a cellist and a bassist.

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So there'll be vocals and
string trio on stage,

233
00:16:19,812 --> 00:16:24,066
and also musical ASL interpretation,
which at this concert will be performed

234
00:16:24,066 --> 00:16:30,364
by Tamyka Bullen, 
a deaf musical ASL performer and poet.

235
00:16:31,699 --> 00:16:38,122
So if - when we attend one of your concerts,
what is the difference between a concert

236
00:16:38,163 --> 00:16:44,044
that we attend at Xenia Concerts and a
traditional concert in the music scene?

237
00:16:44,128 --> 00:16:48,340
Well, it's funny because our
hope, of course, is that gradually,

238
00:16:48,340 --> 00:16:51,677
those differences will diminish,
that other concert series will start

239
00:16:51,719 --> 00:16:56,390
to adopt some of our practices and make
their experiences more accessible.

240
00:16:56,432 --> 00:16:58,225
And that's another big part of what we do.

241
00:16:58,225 --> 00:17:00,936
And maybe we can get into that
later in the conversation.

242
00:17:00,978 --> 00:17:06,442
But at a Xenia concert, you can expect,
we call them adaptive concerts.

243
00:17:06,442 --> 00:17:09,528
We used to call them sensory friendly concerts, 

244
00:17:09,528 --> 00:17:13,741
but now that we've expanded some of our

245
00:17:13,782 --> 00:17:18,537
vision of who we want to include in our
approach to accessibility,

246
00:17:18,579 --> 00:17:23,083
the term sensory friendly didn't quite
capture everything that we do.

247
00:17:23,083 --> 00:17:29,381
So, adaptive concerts because they adapt
to the needs of the people that attend.

248
00:17:29,423 --> 00:17:32,176
So, some of the things that 
we take into consideration, 

249
00:17:32,176 --> 00:17:35,888
obviously, the venue and 
physical access to the venue.

250
00:17:35,929 --> 00:17:38,766
We only present at wheelchair accessible venues 

251
00:17:38,766 --> 00:17:43,729
with wheelchair accessible,
gender-neutral bathrooms available.

252
00:17:43,729 --> 00:17:45,606
But then we take accessibility

253
00:17:45,606 --> 00:17:50,027
into account for every
aspect of the experience.

254
00:17:50,068 --> 00:17:53,572
We have what we call 
our sensory support table, 

255
00:17:53,572 --> 00:17:57,159
where we have
fidget toys available.

256
00:17:57,159 --> 00:18:01,705
We also have balanced cushions for those
who need a little bit of extra sensory stimulation 

257
00:18:01,705 --> 00:18:04,083
when they're - 
to stay engaged.

258
00:18:04,083 --> 00:18:09,129
We have weighted blankets and weighted
pillows for those who need a little bit

259
00:18:09,171 --> 00:18:14,635
of a calming effect when they're
listening to stay engaged.

260
00:18:14,635 --> 00:18:21,433
And then we think of - we incorporate accessibility
into every aspect of the experience.

261
00:18:21,433 --> 00:18:26,105
So freedom of movement
is a big part of that.

262
00:18:26,146 --> 00:18:29,650
Making sure that people know that you can
get up and move around if you need to 

263
00:18:29,650 --> 00:18:32,152
and making space for that.

264
00:18:32,194 --> 00:18:37,533
We set up the seating in such
a way that we have movable chairs.

265
00:18:37,574 --> 00:18:42,371
We don't have fixed seating in most
of our concert venues.

266
00:18:42,371 --> 00:18:46,834
And that allows us
to move things around as needed and again,

267
00:18:46,875 --> 00:18:51,421
adapt to the individual needs
of the people who are attending.

268
00:18:51,463 --> 00:18:56,134
We also set up multiple areas for people

269
00:18:56,134 --> 00:18:59,513
who use mobility devices so that they have
the option of sitting in the front or

270
00:18:59,513 --> 00:19:04,309
in the middle or in the back as they
desire so that people can determine

271
00:19:04,351 --> 00:19:09,606
for themselves what their best
version of that experience might be.

272
00:19:09,606 --> 00:19:14,862
Those are some of the general
accessibility accommodations we make.

273
00:19:14,903 --> 00:19:21,243
But then we also work with the artists to
make the program neurodiversity friendly.

274
00:19:21,243 --> 00:19:26,748
So some of the adaptations we make up
to programming are keeping the concert

275
00:19:26,790 --> 00:19:31,587
shorter than a typical, especially
a typical classical music concert.

276
00:19:31,587 --> 00:19:33,046
Normally, you would expect

277
00:19:33,046 --> 00:19:35,883
the concert to be about two hours long
with an intermission,

278
00:19:35,883 --> 00:19:39,761
and you have to sit quietly and stay in
the same chair the whole time.

279
00:19:39,803 --> 00:19:40,846
We keep our concerts -

280
00:19:40,888 --> 00:19:44,349
The whole experience lasts about an hour,
and we always incorporate a couple

281
00:19:44,349 --> 00:19:48,520
of opportunities to move
around during that time.

282
00:19:48,562 --> 00:19:53,150
So it's either a guided stretch break
where the musicians guide

283
00:19:53,192 --> 00:19:58,447
the audience in some
movement activities or a musical

284
00:19:58,906 --> 00:20:04,870
selection that incorporates movement into
the musical experience.

285
00:20:05,913 --> 00:20:11,043
We also keep our musical
selections short for the most part.

286
00:20:11,043 --> 00:20:14,338
We try to vary the the mood 

287
00:20:14,338 --> 00:20:19,218
or the energy level in the music 
every five to seven minutes.

288
00:20:20,177 --> 00:20:23,013
Sometimes we'll incorporate a piece that's

289
00:20:23,013 --> 00:20:26,224
10 minutes long,
but we make sure that that piece in itself

290
00:20:26,266 --> 00:20:29,770
contains some changes in mood
for those who need a little bit

291
00:20:29,811 --> 00:20:33,065
of a change in stimulus
in order to stay engaged.

292
00:20:33,523 --> 00:20:37,694
Yeah, so that's a pretty long list,
but it's not even comprehensive.

293
00:20:37,736 --> 00:20:42,407
There are other things that we do,
like visual description from the stage.

294
00:20:42,449 --> 00:20:43,909
We have visual aids,

295
00:20:43,951 --> 00:20:47,120
so a PowerPoint presentation
on either side of the stage so that people

296
00:20:47,162 --> 00:20:49,998
can keep the back of where
they are in the program.

297
00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:54,795
We provide venue guides in advance so
that people know what to expect 

298
00:20:54,795 --> 00:20:58,340
when they come to the event and
how to access the venue.

299
00:20:58,382 --> 00:21:01,843
There are quite a few things that we do

300
00:21:01,885 --> 00:21:06,473
just to allow people to
gather the information they need before

301
00:21:06,473 --> 00:21:11,061
the event so they know what to expect
and make themselves comfortable,

302
00:21:11,061 --> 00:21:12,646
and

303
00:21:12,646 --> 00:21:14,439
during the event,

304
00:21:14,439 --> 00:21:19,528
creating that flexibility, again,
that adaptability so that if somebody 

305
00:21:19,528 --> 00:21:24,908
has a need that they need to take care
of in that moment, they can do it.

306
00:21:24,950 --> 00:21:28,787
But I would say the most important 
adaptation that we make 

307
00:21:28,787 --> 00:21:32,457
is letting people know 
that we want them there 

308
00:21:32,457 --> 00:21:36,211
and that their - 
whatever form of expression

309
00:21:36,211 --> 00:21:40,632
comes naturally to them when they're listening
is welcome in that space.

310
00:21:40,674 --> 00:21:47,347
So we say, feel free to make noise,
get up, move around or stim.

311
00:21:47,389 --> 00:21:52,644
Those behaviours are welcome here,
and everybody knows that.

312
00:21:53,061 --> 00:21:57,774
You also mentioned that your aim

313
00:21:57,774 --> 00:22:03,780
is to get these open concerts to all scenes.

314
00:22:04,323 --> 00:22:07,159
And so what is your...

315
00:22:07,159 --> 00:22:10,746
Do you have a specific project
in mind to try to make that happen?

316
00:22:10,787 --> 00:22:14,499
Yes. So we have a number 
of strategic initiatives 

317
00:22:14,499 --> 00:22:20,380
that we're working on to inform others 
and to share resources

318
00:22:20,422 --> 00:22:24,926
that other people can use
to make their own events more accessible.

319
00:22:25,010 --> 00:22:30,098
A big part of that is our Artist Training
program, which we developed in 2022

320
00:22:30,140 --> 00:22:33,310
and have been running
for a year and a half now.

321
00:22:33,352 --> 00:22:36,855
We've trained at least
40 artists at this point.

322
00:22:36,897 --> 00:22:38,690
And in the Artist Training Program,

323
00:22:38,732 --> 00:22:41,526
which we developed in partnership
with the Lotus Center

324
00:22:41,526 --> 00:22:45,530
and Dr. Erin Parkes, 
who is their founder,

325
00:22:45,530 --> 00:22:49,076
has 25 years of experience
teaching teaching people 

326
00:22:49,076 --> 00:22:53,121
in the disability community and 
teaching neurodivergent learners 

327
00:22:53,121 --> 00:22:55,123
in the music world.

328
00:22:55,832 --> 00:23:00,045
We offer this training to all of our artists,

329
00:23:00,045 --> 00:23:03,298
and it includes three and a half hours

330
00:23:03,298 --> 00:23:09,137
of pre-recorded webinars with information 
about some of the more common diagnosis 

331
00:23:09,137 --> 00:23:14,726
and some of the traits that they might 
expect to be working with,

332
00:23:14,726 --> 00:23:19,231
some ways that they can adapt their
programming their musical selections

333
00:23:19,272 --> 00:23:22,067
to make their program
neurodiversity friendly.

334
00:23:22,109 --> 00:23:26,822
We talk about the social model of disability 
versus the medical model of disability.

335
00:23:26,863 --> 00:23:33,412
We talk about the neurodiversity paradigm
and try to open people's minds up to

336
00:23:33,453 --> 00:23:38,792
basically
changing the way they think about

337
00:23:38,834 --> 00:23:45,257
barriers to access as being - not
that the barriers don't exist 

338
00:23:45,257 --> 00:23:50,178
within the individuals that we're serving,
But rather, it's the interaction

339
00:23:50,178 --> 00:23:55,392
between the individual and the design
of the event that creates a barrier.

340
00:23:56,476 --> 00:23:59,646
So the Artist Training program
is a really big part of it.

341
00:23:59,646 --> 00:24:02,732
And now with the 
Accessibility Accelerator,

342
00:24:02,732 --> 00:24:07,863
through our social media,
through our blog posts, we're working on

343
00:24:07,904 --> 00:24:13,326
ways to provide information
and resources for other arts organizations

344
00:24:13,368 --> 00:24:16,746
and artists that want to improve
their accessibility practices.

345
00:24:18,206 --> 00:24:22,169
So we don't know exactly 
what shape that will take yet 

346
00:24:22,169 --> 00:24:25,672
or what shapes
those resources will take.

347
00:24:25,672 --> 00:24:30,760
We're looking at what's out there now,
what gaps need to be filled,

348
00:24:30,802 --> 00:24:37,142
and how we can fill them in a way that
is accessible and approachable

349
00:24:37,184 --> 00:24:41,480
and adaptable to different
environments and different situations.

350
00:24:42,147 --> 00:24:45,483
Is that a new program, or do you already 
have people who are taking 

351
00:24:45,483 --> 00:24:49,237
these courses and 
these resources?

352
00:24:49,279 --> 00:24:50,780
The resources - 

353
00:24:50,780 --> 00:24:54,409
So the Artist Training program,
as I mentioned, has been up and running

354
00:24:54,451 --> 00:24:57,913
for a year and a half,
and we're developing new webinars.

355
00:24:57,913 --> 00:25:00,332
We're currently working towards a webinar

356
00:25:00,373 --> 00:25:03,543
that's specifically about
dementia friendly programming.

357
00:25:03,585 --> 00:25:10,008
And we're obviously
collecting feedback from the artists and

358
00:25:10,008 --> 00:25:14,095
suggestions for how we might improve
it and improve those resources.

359
00:25:14,137 --> 00:25:18,016
On the side of 

360
00:25:18,016 --> 00:25:24,814
advising other arts organizations,
those practices are still emerging.

361
00:25:24,856 --> 00:25:28,693
One thing that we're doing is we've
consulted with a few organizations

362
00:25:28,735 --> 00:25:32,322
and basically hired ourselves out as
consultants

363
00:25:32,364 --> 00:25:38,286
to help them develop venue guides and
accessibility resources

364
00:25:38,286 --> 00:25:43,416
just to consult on some of their current
practices and how they might improve.

365
00:25:44,793 --> 00:25:47,462
And of course, we also deliver workshops

366
00:25:47,504 --> 00:25:51,258
and do presentations
on inclusive concert design.

367
00:25:51,299 --> 00:25:55,303
And those have been
quite well received as well.

368
00:25:55,762 --> 00:25:57,514
I see.

369
00:25:58,348 --> 00:25:59,349
So thank you.

370
00:25:59,391 --> 00:26:00,600
That's great information.

371
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,019
And of course, all that 
will be shared on

372
00:26:03,019 --> 00:26:08,900
ArtsAbly's website so that people can
have a look at all these initiatives.

373
00:26:08,942 --> 00:26:15,991
I wanted to ask you a final question,
which is about inspiration.

374
00:26:16,032 --> 00:26:19,035
So if you had one person to think of

375
00:26:19,077 --> 00:26:23,915
in terms of inspiration in your work,
who would it be and why?

376
00:26:24,416 --> 00:26:28,837
Yeah, it's interesting to be asked
a question about inspiration

377
00:26:28,878 --> 00:26:33,174
in relation to disability because I'm very
well aware of this

378
00:26:33,216 --> 00:26:37,596
concept of inspiration porn,
which maybe you're familiar with,

379
00:26:37,637 --> 00:26:42,976
the idea that, "look at what this
person with a disability did, isn't it inspiring"

380
00:26:42,976 --> 00:26:47,230
that they did something that 
would be considered pretty - 

381
00:26:48,189 --> 00:26:51,151
pretty typical if somebody else had done it?

382
00:26:51,192 --> 00:26:54,946
So I'm very cautious
around the word inspiration.

383
00:26:54,988 --> 00:26:57,741
But what you're asking, of course,

384
00:26:57,782 --> 00:27:03,121
is who do I see as people
who are leaders in this space?

385
00:27:03,371 --> 00:27:06,541
Where do I gain inspiration from?

386
00:27:06,541 --> 00:27:09,127
And who are some people that are
doing really great work?

387
00:27:09,127 --> 00:27:11,755
I mean, aside from you, of course - 

388
00:27:11,755 --> 00:27:12,839
[Laughs] [Thank you!]

389
00:27:12,839 --> 00:27:16,092
you are showing amazing leadership in 
this space through ArtsAbly and 

390
00:27:16,092 --> 00:27:18,136
through your own approach,

391
00:27:18,178 --> 00:27:23,516
which I think is very gentle and nuanced, 
which I think is important.

392
00:27:24,809 --> 00:27:28,521
I think of Gaitrie Killings,
who we've worked with a few times.

393
00:27:28,563 --> 00:27:33,360
She's an incredible musical ASL performer,

394
00:27:33,401 --> 00:27:40,408
also an actor and just a leader
in the deaf and hard-of-hearing community.

395
00:27:40,408 --> 00:27:43,119
She's just a fantastic performer.

396
00:27:43,161 --> 00:27:47,665
Even though I don't sign,
I'm not fluent in ASL,

397
00:27:47,665 --> 00:27:51,169
I only know, you know, how to spell
my name and that sort of thing.

398
00:27:51,211 --> 00:27:54,798
Watching her perform
is very moving because you can

399
00:27:54,839 --> 00:28:00,970
see the expression and the work and
the thought and care that goes into it.

400
00:28:01,221 --> 00:28:05,225
She's just a tremendous advocate
for the deaf community as well.

401
00:28:06,059 --> 00:28:15,819
I think of Adrian Anantawan, who's a
violinist working in Boston at the moment.

402
00:28:15,860 --> 00:28:19,364
He has shown amazing leadership.

403
00:28:19,364 --> 00:28:22,409
He's obviously an amazing musician.

404
00:28:22,450 --> 00:28:24,702
I think you might know him or know of him

405
00:28:24,702 --> 00:28:29,249
through the very well-named RAMPD,

406
00:28:30,125 --> 00:28:35,422
which is an organization for artists with disabilities, 
performing artists with disabilities.

407
00:28:35,463 --> 00:28:39,634
Adrian and I went
to school together for a little while,

408
00:28:39,634 --> 00:28:43,263
and we connect every once in a while
to talk about the work that he's doing.

409
00:28:43,304 --> 00:28:46,182
He's done research
on adaptive instruments.

410
00:28:46,850 --> 00:28:52,564
He does a a lot of education work and a lot of 
equity-focused work in the music world.

411
00:28:52,564 --> 00:28:55,817
So I think of Adrian as a shining example

412
00:28:55,859 --> 00:29:00,530
of somebody who is working at that
intersection of disability and music.

413
00:29:00,655 --> 00:29:05,201
Adrian, I really admire his work.

414
00:29:05,201 --> 00:29:12,459
It inspired me in some of the workshops
in education and music

415
00:29:12,500 --> 00:29:17,839
because he did a fantastic work
on all that idea that - 

416
00:29:17,839 --> 00:29:25,513
Let's find ways to perform, even if - 
with very few mobility, we can have a computer.

417
00:29:25,555 --> 00:29:31,102
Let's work with children
to see how they can perform.

418
00:29:31,144 --> 00:29:33,104
And this is really where I want to go.

419
00:29:33,104 --> 00:29:37,484
So I really appreciate that,
sharing information about Adrian.

420
00:29:37,484 --> 00:29:39,569
Also, RAMPD.

421
00:29:39,986 --> 00:29:45,158
So I'm a pro-member of RAMPD,
and I know these - 

422
00:29:45,158 --> 00:29:52,040
It's a fantastic group of musicians, 
there are tons of opportunities for people,

423
00:29:52,081 --> 00:29:56,628
I would say all around the world
right now, because it's growing.

424
00:29:56,669 --> 00:30:01,299
And a fantastic organization, really.

425
00:30:01,341 --> 00:30:06,221
RAMPD was actually in my mind 
when I started running ArtsAbly,

426
00:30:06,221 --> 00:30:08,723
because they are doing exactly that.

427
00:30:08,765 --> 00:30:12,894
They are promoting
accessibility in the arts.

428
00:30:12,894 --> 00:30:16,439
They are trying to get
performers on stage.

429
00:30:16,439 --> 00:30:17,565
And,

430
00:30:17,982 --> 00:30:20,985
and yes, Gaitrie, also. 

431
00:30:21,444 --> 00:30:24,239
It's fantastic work, 
what she's doing, too.

432
00:30:24,239 --> 00:30:25,990
So, yeah, thank you for sharing that.

433
00:30:25,990 --> 00:30:29,661
Yes. I also want to mention 
one person who we met recently, 

434
00:30:30,203 --> 00:30:35,959
whose name is Ben Lunn,
and he's a composer who lives in Glasgow

435
00:30:35,959 --> 00:30:40,713
who's working through an organization
called Drake Music Scotland.

436
00:30:40,755 --> 00:30:43,299
They also have a network of disabled artists 

437
00:30:43,299 --> 00:30:46,302
living in the UK called
the Disability Artist Network.

438
00:30:46,344 --> 00:30:48,680
I don't know whether you're familiar with them. 
Very familiar. 

439
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,058
Okay. So we just met with him
a couple of weeks ago.

440
00:30:52,058 --> 00:30:57,188
He connected with us, and we're talking about 
how we might support each other 

441
00:30:57,188 --> 00:30:59,607
and potentially collaborate down the road.

442
00:31:00,149 --> 00:31:05,488
But it's just great to see the leadership
that Ben is showing in that space in the UK, 

443
00:31:05,488 --> 00:31:13,162
and that he's got a, you know,
global view of how their work might be

444
00:31:13,580 --> 00:31:19,294
incorporated into, or taken 
elsewhere outside of the UK.

445
00:31:19,335 --> 00:31:22,797
Those international connections 
are starting to form,

446
00:31:22,797 --> 00:31:24,507
and that's really exciting to see.

447
00:31:24,549 --> 00:31:27,093
It's very easy to get
stuck in your bubble.

448
00:31:27,135 --> 00:31:28,803
Yes.
Yes.

449
00:31:28,803 --> 00:31:32,807
Drake Music is also doing fantastic work
in terms of new technologies,

450
00:31:33,433 --> 00:31:37,645
and they are doing - 
they are really trying to connect

451
00:31:37,687 --> 00:31:43,443
musicians with possibilities
of building instruments and of adapting.

452
00:31:43,443 --> 00:31:47,572
And they have some workshops
that they run with lots of people.

453
00:31:47,572 --> 00:31:48,948
And these are models.

454
00:31:48,990 --> 00:31:51,743
We can see that as, wow,

455
00:31:51,743 --> 00:31:55,747
this could be applied
in a fun way with a lot of different

456
00:31:55,747 --> 00:31:57,832
people and with a lot
of different organizations.

457
00:31:57,874 --> 00:32:00,668
So I hope you can have
a great partnership with them.

458
00:32:00,668 --> 00:32:01,878
It would be great.

459
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:03,504
Yeah, I hope so, too.

460
00:32:03,546 --> 00:32:07,592
And as we talk, I'm still
thinking of more people.

461
00:32:07,592 --> 00:32:14,349
There's David Bobier, who runs
an organization called VibraFusionLab,

462
00:32:14,349 --> 00:32:16,934
and they work with vibro
tactile technology.

463
00:32:16,976 --> 00:32:19,646
They're doing some
really exciting research.

464
00:32:19,687 --> 00:32:24,525
And Jesse Stewart, who lives in Ottawa,
and he's a percussionist

465
00:32:24,525 --> 00:32:27,945
and a professor at the university,
at Carleton University,

466
00:32:27,987 --> 00:32:31,449
is doing some pretty great research
in terms of adaptive instruments 

467
00:32:31,449 --> 00:32:36,162
and adapting performances for people 
with various forms of disability 

468
00:32:36,162 --> 00:32:38,873
and people in the dementia community.

469
00:32:39,832 --> 00:32:43,169
Lots of people doing great work.
Lots of people out there.

470
00:32:43,169 --> 00:32:47,840
And the other thing I would say that's
been really exciting is that

471
00:32:48,883 --> 00:32:54,722
as we grow and we develop relationships
with new artists,

472
00:32:54,931 --> 00:32:59,102
it's been interesting to have
conversations with artists who will say,

473
00:32:59,143 --> 00:33:05,274
Yeah, I really connect with this
work because I'm autistic.

474
00:33:05,316 --> 00:33:09,362
It might not be in their biography.

475
00:33:09,404 --> 00:33:13,199
And, you know, there are issues of stigma,

476
00:33:13,199 --> 00:33:18,705
and you would never expect somebody
to disclose a disability

477
00:33:19,455 --> 00:33:24,544
without having thought about it
themselves and made that decision.

478
00:33:24,585 --> 00:33:28,047
But it's been interesting to learn

479
00:33:28,089 --> 00:33:33,094
that some of the people that we're 
working with are neurodivergent 

480
00:33:33,094 --> 00:33:38,182
or have a disability that they just
don't talk about publicly.

481
00:33:39,684 --> 00:33:43,354
Yeah, so I think it'll be interesting to see as we - 

482
00:33:43,354 --> 00:33:49,986
as we continue to do this work, hopefully,
some of that stigma will start to fall away.

483
00:33:50,028 --> 00:33:51,988
People will start to feel more comfortable

484
00:33:51,988 --> 00:33:58,411
talking about invisible disabilities,
invisible forms of disability or neurodivergence,

485
00:33:58,411 --> 00:34:01,956
so that we can become more comfortable

486
00:34:01,998 --> 00:34:07,462
talking about it, which I
think is a big part of this process.

487
00:34:07,503 --> 00:34:11,007
Well, thank you so much for your time.
My pleasure.

488
00:34:11,007 --> 00:34:15,845
Yeah. And I'm really looking
forward to all your projects.

489
00:34:15,845 --> 00:34:18,431
Good luck with everything.
Thank you.

490
00:34:18,431 --> 00:34:21,350
Yeah.
There's a lot going on at all times.

491
00:34:21,392 --> 00:34:23,895
And as you know,
there's a lot of work to do.

492
00:34:23,936 --> 00:34:27,648
We were just talking about that before
we turned our microphones on.

493
00:34:27,648 --> 00:34:31,319
There's a lot of work to do,
but it's definitely exciting to see

494
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:35,031
the growing interest in accessibility
and the growing commitment,

495
00:34:35,072 --> 00:34:41,829
especially among artists, I think,
who have an experience 

496
00:34:41,829 --> 00:34:47,335
that opens their eyes to what a concert could be 
or what a musical experience could be.

497
00:34:47,335 --> 00:34:49,337
That's exciting to see.

498
00:34:49,337 --> 00:34:51,547
Thank you.
Well, thank you.

499
00:34:54,133 --> 00:34:59,138
♪ Closing theme music ♪