Hello and welcome to this episode of ArtsAbly in conversation.
My name is Diane Kolin.
This series presents artists, academics, and project leaders
who dedicate their time and energy to a better accessibility
for people with disabilities in the arts.
You can find more of these conversations on our website:
artsably.com which is spelled A-R-T-S-A-B-L-Y dot com.
Today, ArtsAbly is in conversation
with Dr. Eliza Chandler, associate professor
in the School of Disability Studies at Toronto Metropolitan University.
Dr. Chandler is deeply involved in disability arts
and its connections to disability rights and justice.
During the interview, Dr. Chandler mentions
a certain number of resources
that are listed on ArtsAbly's website in the blog section.
Thank you for being here today.
It's my pleasure to interview you today as part of ArtsAbly's podcast.
I wanted to ask you a little bit about yourself to start.
Thanks for inviting me, it's great to be here.
My name is Elizabeth Chandler.
And I'm a professor at Toronto Metropolitan University
in the School of Disability Studies, where I teach and research
in the areas of disability art and cultural accessibility
and think about how disability art can represent disability
in a way that resists ableist understanding.
Okay. So how did your journey into critical disability studies
and crip culture and disability justice, how did that start exactly for you?
I think my undergrad in the early 2000s
at art school at the Nova Scotia College of Art and Design.
So I was making arts, I was becoming an artist
but I wasn't identifying as disabled at all.
To my knowledge, there wasn't anything called disability art.
There was sort of emerging conversations in Canada,
but where I was, I hadn't encountered any of that.
And so I'd say in that experience,
My...
My artistic practice was quite limited
by what I could do independently.
There was no discussion about accommodation or accessibility
and I would sort of slightly ask people to help me
in the sculpture studio or in the dark room in the photo lab.
But when there was no one around to help,
I would just sort of attenuate or limit my project to fit within
what I could do independently, which sometimes wasn't a lot.
So reflecting back on that experience,
I often think about how much more I could do
if I had...
was able to sort of advocate for myself, identify as disabled,
and sort of receive the accommodation that I needed.
Then after that experience, I moved to Toronto
and I was looking to take some courses
to upgrade my bachelor of Fine Arts to a Bachelor of Arts
and I was able to take any course that I wanted to at the University of Toronto,
and that would count towards sort of upgrading my degree.
And they were starting to offer disability studies courses at that time,
and then I'd never heard of disability studies at all.
And my professor at the time, and this was
almost 20 years ago, I'd say, was Rachel Gorman.
And I think she was just sort of starting out as well.
I think she probably had just graduated from doing her PhD.
Anyway, she was teaching a course on disability culture, and I was
so captivated by that, I just thought it blew my mind right up when
when I heard about the course "disability studies"
I really had no idea what to expect.
I thought it might be medicalized or patronizing
or, you know, not interesting.
But she taught that class in such a profound way.
And for me, the connection to arts and culture,
which was something I was engaged in already, made all of the difference.
It really helped me get into the topic.
And of course, as a disabled person,
learning about disability rights and justice
sort of affected how I understood myself and how I moved in the world.
At the time I was in my personal life experiencing a lot of barriers
to accessing work and housing and money and stuff like that.
So the course had a profound impact on me, personally and professionally.
It led me to... to...
move on in my careers in disability studies
at York [University] and at OISE, U of T [University of Toronto]
and through that process of my Master's and PhD, I sort of lost the arts focus.
I moved more into the realm of phenomenology
and storytelling and things like that.
And then it wasn't until sort of one of my, you know,
near the end of my PhD program that I met up with
scholar Dr. Carla Rice, who at the time was putting together
digital storytelling workshops for people who identified as disabled.
And I received her contact,
so I just, you know,
I got in touch with her and I participated
in a couple of these digital storytelling workshops.
And what was incredible about these
workshops is that I noticed that there were other disabled people in there
using the workshop as a way to access
our art supplies, artistic training, and
maybe even unintentionally or surprisingly,
access peers to disabled artists.
And again, this was sort of the late twenty...
Maybe early 2010s at this point.
So Tangled Art + Disability wasn't around,
there wasn't through this hub of as there is now.
And so what I thought would just be sort of an interesting
research project actually turned into so much more than that.
It introduced me to artists like Jess H
and Lindsay Fisher and Vanessa Dion Fletcher
and all kinds of other artists.
And together we sort of stuck with the project
because of our investment in what we were sort of sensing
was sort of an emerging disability arts culture.
And at that point, we also were connected to
the Abilities Arts Festival in Toronto.
They had just hired a new executive director, Rina Fraticelli.
His mission was to sort of turn the organization from
a parent run, one week long festival in the form of charity,
and Rina's objective was to turn that organization into a publicly funded,
year long, sustainable disability arts organization.
And she was interested -
Rina was interested in the work we were doing
at Project Re•Vision, the research project
that I was mentioning with Carla Rice.
So she connected with us, and
over time and, you know,
relationship building, I joined the board of Abilities,
and just when it was turning into what it is today, Tangled Arts + Disability.
So the name change signified cerebral cultural change within the organization.
And Rina is non disabled, and it was always her intention
to get the organization in a good place
and then replace herself with a disabled artistic director.
And that was all happening when I graduated from my doctorate.
And so I applied and I became the artistic director of Tangled,
and I was also at that time doing a PhD at the School of Disability Studies.
So, naturally, it became... My research agenda, my research program
became about thinking about the cultural impact of disability art
as I was sort of working in that realm
in this other position.
And from there, I have just maintained that research interest.
And now I sort of have a suite of research projects that are all dedicated to
supporting disability art through funding and training and
mentorship, artists in residencies, things like that,
as well as researching
the cultural impact of that artistic production.
And right now I'm interested in really sort of
the emergence of cultural accessibility access practices
that are created by disabled people for the cultural sphere,
and thinking about how the integration of cultural accessibility
across the sector, across different art organizations,
can create or contribute to a real cultural shift
that is about transformation rather than inclusion.
So rather than including disabled people into organizations such as they are,
this sort of realization that because ableism is sort of baked into
our hegemony, our worldviews, everything that we do,
that when we simply include people in
as an artist or whatever,
we're - we're still creating barriers
because of how arts and culture typically work, right?
So if we're including - if we're inviting a disabled artist to have
an exhibition in our gallery,
but only giving them a weekend to install the show,
potentially that can create barriers
if the person is not able, for any number of reasons, to work that quickly.
And so thinking about the impact of introducing disability -
sorry, cultural accessibility practices
to sort of shifting
the arts culture, talking to galleries about the possibilities of extending
install windows and how even if that means that you have to have fewer shows in a year,
it's worth it to be able to work with disabled artists.
And, yeah,
so that's the end of the story.
That's where I am now.
And so you were telling about storytelling.
How does these storytelling things impact exhibitions that you have in Tangled Arts?
And can you talk a little bit more about how Tangled Arts is featuring artists?
Yeah, absolutely.
I will say that since 2016, I haven't been at Tangled,
I've been at TMU, but I certainly work with Tangled quite a bit,
so I can speak to that, maybe from a personal experience.
So, for example,
Maybe...
Maybe... Where should I start with this story?
So one of the shows that I co-created - co-curated before I left Tangled
was with indigenous artist Vanessa Dion Fletcher,
Lenape and Potawatomi artist from Tkaronto
who identifies as neurodiverse -
No, sorry, neurodivergent.
And in this show,
Vanessa...
Sorry, this show was called "Own Your Cervix."
And the show was about
sort of the intersections of disability, identity,
medical ableism, and reproductive health and rights for disabled people,
with cervixes in particular,
but also about sort of reclaiming
indigenous identity and discovering indigenous language.
So in this show, she combined a bunch of different elements
to create sort of an immersive installation.
So she painted cervixes with paint
that resembled her own menstrual blood,
and turned - and painted
the cervixes onto wallpaper, which she papered around the gallery.
She built an accessible medical examining table
in which people with all abilities could engage
in sort of the act of self examination of their own cervix,
privately, of course.
She created - she brought in a shave lounge
which was a piece of furniture which
sort of replicated, or referenced, I should say,
the era of sort of intense colonization in North America,
and painted that as well with menstrual blood, as well as embellished the fabric
with porcupine quill, which is a sacred object to her and her culture,
which are used to tattoo and to create cultural objects.
So she was sort of bringing in lots of different elements into the space
to tell a story about how colonization has...
has stripped her of so many things,
including her language, her aboriginal language,
access to
cultural traditions, although she still is very connected with her culture.
But interestingly, to think about the way that colonization
remove indigenous people from sacred objects as well as world views,
to have this show at Tangled Art gallery and to be thinking about disability,
she was also able to think about how colonization, in particular medical care,
has removed her from indigenous ways of knowing her own body.
And in so doing, it has introduced an experience of ableism
that perhaps you wouldn't have encountered had it not been for colonization
and the way that colonization shapes what we now understand
as the medical, industrial complex,
which, any disabled person will tell you,
sort of creates this space where doctors
often don't believe disabled people when, as experts of our own experience and
create barriers towards self understanding,
whether it's physical barriers like medical examination tables, that we can't
access, or more ideological barriers, where you only are introduced to your body
in this very sterile, removed way in which the doctor holds
the majority of the information about your own body and you're only given sort of snippets.
And of course, the information that you're given
is framed by colonial ways of knowing your body.
So again, because Vanessa was...
Vanessa has talked about this too,
the context of Tangled,
it sort of provoked her to think about bodies and disability in the context of
colonization and decolonization and indigenous ways of knowing.
So through the elements of that show, as
well as the artist statement, artist talk, et cetera, Vanessa sort of rolled
this narrative and introduced audiences to sort of this perhaps
often overlooked impact of medical ableism, which is
sort of the separation out between the person and embodied knowledge,
and through her process of self examinations, allowed us to
to sort of get to now re...
become reacquainted with ourselves in sort of the sentiment way.
Another exhibition I'll just talk about quickly
is one that I'm working on right now with Tangled.
About a year ago, I received a SSHRC [Social Sciences] grant
to do work with an artist organization in Ottawa
called BEING Studio, and BEING Studio works...
BEING Studio is populated by artists with -
who identify as having developmental disabilities or neurodivergent,
and they've been working together since 2002.
Initially, they were operating under
the name Heart of Ottawa, and then sort of later in 2017, became BEING Studio.
So here's a group of artists who've been working together for over 20 years at this point,
and they've been collecting their artwork as well as their journals and other sort of ephemera
in this huge overflowing archive.
So the work that we did through this research grant was we held what we called
archive sessions
with a select group of artists in which we explored
the artists, the art in the archive, and talked about the history of BEING Studio
as a way of thinking about the role of developmental disabled people,
including institutional survivors, in the development of disability art.
Because again, disability art is a relatively newly established sector.
But this group of artists had been making art,
and I would argue, making an impact for well before
we started talking about disability art in the way that we do presently.
And I also feel like
some of these early contributions get overlooked when we tell stories of, you know,
who was the one to contact the Canada Council to urge them
to create a funding stream, right?
It's these sort of grand gestures that often get remarked upon and credited
with sort of propelling disability arts to where it is today.
When, you know, whole groups of artists have been working quietly for so long
and, you know, making an impact.
So we created I think what's going to be a really compelling podcast
about the history of BEING Studio
and its impact on the development of disability arts in Canada
and its connection with institutional vision and outsider art and therapy and
all of these things that sort of thinking that in disability art currently, we
spend a lot of time distancing ourselves from this historic idea that art created
by disabled people is outsider art or art root or products of art therapy.
So we distance ourselves from those narratives as a way of
making a convincing case that our work is professional and it's political.
But there are artists,
disabled artists, who talk a lot about how their work is therapeutic,
and the artists are being work in, you know, in
a setting that might not be recognized as a professional setting by some.
And their work is very political, and they themselves talk about how their work can
be political and therapeutic at the same time.
And so I think it's really important to
sort of surface these narratives of perhaps non dormant of ways of creating
disability art, which tend to fall outside of sort of the dormant of narrative, of
what a disability art practice is and can contribute.
So I say all this to say, so this is what the podcast explores.
And coming up next year, we'll have an exhibition at Tangled art
that features art from the archive,
as well as this podcast to sort of tell this hidden history, which
I think is important to the development of disability art.
So again, with the art, the artist talks, the educational panels, the tours, et cetera,
all of those things will come together to offer a counter-narrative.
And we already know where it will be published? or...
Is that something you can already... already disclose?
Is it on a website?
Yeah, the podcast, when it's completed,
will be published on BEING studio's website, which is BEING studio dot org.
It will also be featured on the podcast
"Disability Saves the World" Which is a podcast by
Dr. Fady Shanouda, which you can find that quite easily.
Thank you.
So you mentioned now you are at TMU,
at Toronto Metropolitan University, and you did a postdoc there.
And now you are an assistant [associate] professor.
What are you doing exactly there?
Yeah, now I'm an associate professor at TMU.
And, yeah, like I said, I'm teaching courses on disability art.
I teach a course
called "Cripping the Arts in Canada," which I think is the first of its kind, probably
one of the only courses on disability arts in Canada and their cultural impact.
I supervise graduate students working in and around the area of disability arts and culture,
and my own research sort of thinks about the cultural impact of disability art,
as well as sort of
what we might call the necropolitical conditions in which we make disability art.
So by necropolitical conditions, I mean
all of the ways that disabled people's lives are threatened,
either materially or
ideologically or some combination of the two.
So
one of the conditions, there's a context that I think a lot about is
Canada's medical assistance in dying [MAID] legislation, which makes it,
you know, as some activists will tell you, which makes it easier for disabled people
sometimes to access death than it is to access life or a fulfilled life.
So to think about, you know, the ramifications of living in a culture
where there's these sort of dominant narratives that
to become disabled is a life not worth living.
When people age into disability, as we often do, and they use that
new embodiment, or shifting embodiment as justification, threatening a life
that sends a loud cultural narrative of the value
or lack of value of a disabled life.
And that translates into
updates amendments to the legislation in which people with physical disabilities,
people with mental health disabilities who are not experiencing terminal conditions,
are able now to access medical assistance in dying.
And the way that that's permissible is, again, through disabled understanding that
a life with disability is not worth living.
And so, you know, some of the saddest cases we hear reported is people who
just for years and years and years, haven't been able to find adequate, accessible housing.
Perhaps they're living unnecessarily
in long term care homes simply because it's the only place where they can access
accessible housing, for example, and then being there and being, you know,
treated, perhaps negligently or in ways that just don't mark a fulfilled life,
and then being sort of invited to consider by physicians whether one might want to
to go down the road of MAID, to elect to have medical assistance in dying,
And then we see people opting for this option
because of the conditions of their lives, right?
So we see this sense of strong message
that Canada's response to ableism and the unbearable toll
that it plays on disabled people in their lives, is not to address ableism
and create more accessible housing, to, you know,
create more work options for adequate and fulfilling and well paying work.
It's not to create a basic income program.
You know,, it's not to create more accessibility
within public life so that people can navigate all aspects of public life as is
protected in the Canadian... with Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
Instead, it is to allow disabled people to elect for death.
I mean, this is a really striking,
a really devastating context in which we as disabled people have to live.
And so creating art, which in itself is a creative engagement which sort of
confronts this idea that disabled people are not engaged.
If we're making art, In fact, we are.
We are all of these things.
But many of the art that disabled people create
present disability through a new vantage,
not through an ableist's vantage, but through the vantage of perhaps disability pride,
more affirmative vantages, or more vantages of disability justice, these kinds of things.
So another show that Tangled hosted a few years ago was called "Flourishing."
And it was curated by Dr. Catherine Frazee, who's a longtime disability rights activist
and one of the strongest voices that challenged the impact of medical assistance in dying.
So she curated a group exhibition featuring disabled people making artwork.
And the artwork wasn't, not all of it was
necessarily directly addressing MAID,
but together, and through her characterial statement, it demonstrated how disabled people
can flourish, as opposed to MAID, when given access to community,
you know, accessible spaces, the time and the right to create and that kind of thing.
So I wasn't involved with that directly, but that sort of... that is a source of inspiration.
And so I've been working with my colleague at the School of Disability Studies,
Dr. Esther Ignagni, to create this...
So, initially we were creating...
We were hosting what are called Death Cafes
which are places where people get together and talk about death.
And we thought, you know, wouldn't it be interesting
to gather together disabled people to talk about death in the context of MAID?
And what we found when we initially started was people have all kinds of
understandings of MAID as is people's rights, of course.
And so we were having these very disconnected conversations
wherein people would defend their right to access MAID
and perhaps don't think about the political consequences, right?
Because so often, medical assistances in dying
is represented as freedom of choice, when in fact, if you look at it
through a disability studies perspective, we can think about, again, how sort of...
how it is offered in place of adequate supports for living a good life.
And so we wanted to introduce
this context to people in our Death Cafes, not necessarily to teach them, you know,
this is the right way to think about something, but just to introduce a
perspective, and see if or how or if not, that changed
their perspective on MAID, which, again, was so often informed by
a dominant discourse, which there's good reason for that.
The dominant discourse is more easily
accessed than a disability studies critique.
But we wanted to...
We wanted to introduce critique, but not really in a didactic way, right?
We didn't want to sit people down and say:
here's how we think about MAID, don't you agree? Right?
We wanted to sort of offer...
offer different perspective in a way that people could engage with, disagree with,
take up, not take up, you know, think about, ponder those kind of things.
So what we did was we started to work with disabled artists to create
what we were calling short performatives, which were very sort of loosely based on
some of the revamp that we were doing around MAID, so that these artists would sort of
create these ten minute performances which they would perform
at the beginning of a Death Cafe, and it would inform the conversation.
And we thought this worked really beautifully as just sort of a provocation
rather than a lecture or, you know, something more didactic, as I've said.
So we worked with artists to sort of create these performatives.
So to give an example, there was a very famous case in Canada
of this man named Archie Rolland, who was, you know, a white, wealthy
man living in Quebec, had all the privilege in the world.
So it's important to say that.
And he was diagnosed with ALS
and sent to live in a long term care home outside of Montreal.
And it was fine, he was, you know,
receiving good quality of care, you know.
He wasn't thrilled about his position, but, you know, it was what it was.
He could, you know, live a fulfilled life.
And then this long term care home closed down and he was moved to another one.
And he had the opposite experience.
And he started writing letters to the Montreal Gazette,
sort of explaining what he was experiencing.
So he would explain things like, you know,
because of short staff and because of lack of resources, which we now know
so much more about because of COVID, but he was writing this pre COVID.
He was saying, you know: "People aren't shutting off the lights overnight,
so I can't sleep; I'm not getting moved in my bed enough,
so I'm getting this huge bed sores;
and nobody's moistening my lips."
So it seems like something you might not think about.
But if you're not able to speak or to lick your lips or produce saliva, you need
somebody to moisten your lips so they don't get cracked, right?
So he recounted all of his sort of quotidian acts that he was experiencing.
And then, you know, ultimately he said,
you know, I can't bear it anymore.
And the doctors are constantly suggesting
that I... that I...
that I receive medical assistance in dying and I'm going to take it.
Like, I just can't spend my days in so much pain and so much frustration.
But I really want you to know, public, through public letters, that I'm not
choosing MAID because I can't bear to live as someone with ALS.
I'm choosing MAID because I'm not...
The conditions are not such that facilitate a good life.
And they could be. These are systemic barriers that I'm facing.
And so we were quite taken by these letters.
And so we worked with Sean Lee, who's a disabled artist,
the director of Tangled Art + Disability, Carrie Perrault, who's a mad artist,
and Vanessa Dion Fletcher, who we spoke about earlier.
And together we created this short performance
in which we were talking about the importance of having our lips being moistened.
And they were performing instructions, medical instructions,
in which they moistened each other's lips.
So it was sort of this
interesting, intimate, sort of odd performance, but it provided us
a way to talk about sort of a small act, as a way to sort of catalyze a whole other corporal
conversation about the conditions in which people are forced to take MAID
as an invitation to people to think about MAID perhaps more critically.
And then in the Death Cafes that followed that performance, we were able to have
much different conversations based on our shared experience with that performance.
So I say all that as an example of sort of
the way that we can integrate disability studies perspectives
to cultural events or discourses, and use art to initiate
different kinds of conversations around those discourses.
And there is also another project in which you're involved,
which is Bodies in Translation, right? Can you talk about that project?
Yes, 'cause that's sort of the broader grant of all of this work that I'm talking about.
So Bodies in Translation was a seven year grant.
We're just finishing it up now.
It's a partnership grant.
So we had over 70, I think, partners on that grant
who were artists, academic organizations, this kind of thing.
And the nature of a partnership grant
is that you can seed different projects in different places.
So we had this whole network of people doing work like I just described.
And in fact, the work that I just described was part of Bodies in Translation.
It was funded through a few channels, but
supported by Bodies in Translation, where we were sort of investing in disability art
and thinking about how it could shift conversations about disability rights,
justice, necropolitics, accessibility, et cetera.
And we were also interested...
we were interested in the power of disability art to enact social change, as
well as fat art, aging art, art produced through a decolonial perspective.
So we had all of these sort of work art pilot projects going on across Canada,
across Ontario, really, and then teams of researchers who would follow these grants
and think about, you know, writing about them in articles and things like that.
And so we produced lots of, you know, exhibitions, performances, symposia.
We produced the Cripping the Arts symposia, which happened at Harbourfront Centre a few years ago,
in which lots of international disability stakeholders
gathered together to talk about the future of disability arts.
We had artists at residencies, you know, all of these things,
and they were all very well documented.
So we created podcasts and short documentaries
and, you know, think pieces about all of this work that was happening.
And now we're just sort of in the final stages of creating what's called
a knowledge platform, which really is
an accessible, free to access website where we...
we put all this documentation, everything from articles to documentaries.
And we've created what we call learning modules around these outputs
so that people, teachers, community, educators, artists, et cetera,
can integrate these outputs, integrate this research activity
of Bodies in Translation into their teaching, and sort of
use this work to talk about, to talk about disability studies ideas, right?
So they could perhaps show a video of the performatives that I was just talking about
and use that performance to talk about a disability studies critique of MAID.
Or they could show a documentary about
Vanessa Dion Fletcher's work and use that to talk about the connection between
disability justice and decolonization, this kind of thing.
So that was an incredible project because of
sort of the range of artistic activities that we were able to cultivate.
And I think in so doing, we really sort of raised the platform of disability art.
One of the projects that we worked on quite a bit was
around relaxed performance, which you probably know quite a bit about that as a musician,
but developing training modules again and
working with concert halls, music education programs,
theaters, et cetera, to integrate relaxed performance into their programs,
and then again to follow up with interviews as we go to assess the impact of
of introducing this cultural accessibility practice into what might be mainstream
approaches to teaching and delivering the performing arts.
And there's a website, bodiesintranslation
dot org - I think it's dot org - that I would encourage anyone to go to.
Let me just get the website, but I would encourage anyone to go to.
Right now we have most of our cultural outputs on that grant.
On that website.
Sorry, the website is bodiesintranslation dot CA.
That's the website.
And then soon that website will take you to
what I'm describing as the knowledge platform.
So you'll have access to all of the projects that were supported by the grant.
I will put links on ArtsAbly's website.
I will put a link on that.
Yeah, thank you.
One other thing I'll say about
Bodies in Translation website is we also have an artist directory,
So it's sort of a...
Pages, like the Yellow Pages, where you can -
where you're introduced to artists and
their practice and their contact information.
So if you're looking to hire or work with a disabled creative,
that directory is really useful.
Another thing we have on that website right now
is what we call our vital practices document, which is,
I think, a hundred pages document in which we explain how to make events accessible,
how to work with live captioners, ASL interpreters, live performances,
hybrid events, all of these things, and we continually update that.
So if you're interested in integrating these practices,
that's a great resource to be used.
Thank you. That's great.
That's exactly why ArtsAbly is here,
it's to try to connect all these initiatives that we can find here and there and try to have
that and talk about it, because it should be known.
It's really important.
And I have a fond memory of Cripping the Arts.
It was really transformative for me
to be able to interact also with the artists and to bring friends with me and
try to see their own feedback about - what did you live in that experience?
And that was really important.
So thank you. That's great.
Yeah, thank you.
So I have a last question for you.
In your career, you've met a lot of
different artists and a lot of different people.
If you had one person who really inspired you to name, who would it be?
Oh, that's a great question.
Oh, that's a hard one.
[Laughs.]
I think I... I mean, I'm really fascinated by
Carmen Papalia, who's a blind artist working in Vancouver.
And he does lots of social experiments as performances.
And he thinks about how he is understood in the public culture as a blind person.
And he plays with his mobility devices in really creative ways.
So, for example, he has a performance.
The name won't come to me, I don't think.
it might just be called "Mobility Device."
But anyway, instead of walking around with
a white cane, as he often does, he worked with a high school marching band and they
would follow him or surround him as he walked around the city and play musical
notations to signify when an intersection was coming up.
If you turn right or left or walk upstairs and down a curb.
There he is sort of zooming around the city, sort of taking his cues from the music.
So it's such a great sort of creative exploration about world building, right?
What would the world look like if you were able to access
the world in a way that made sense for you, which for him is auditory cues rather
than a white cane which, you know, serves - really to keep him disoriented, right?
And again, this idea of like trying to access a world
that wasn't built for him and sort of the challenges that arises
but with this marching band, which of course, you know, likely isn't sustainable
but in the interest of this performance really sort of joyful, exuberant
experience that we all witness, I think it is called "Mobility Device."
Thank you. Yeah, I will also put a link on that because I saw some of these videos.
They are really well done and, you know, people don't realize
at first what is happening [Laughs]. And yeah, it's really, it's a great artist.
I really like that.
Yeah.
Okay.. Thank you so much.
Yeah, thank you, this was fun, thank you.
And all the best for All your projects and everything that is happening right now.
Okay, you too. Good luck with ArtAbility [ArtsAbly]. That's great.
Thank you.
Okay, bye.