and we'll do it.
Welcome to Orthostatic,
a podcast brought to you by
the Academy of Orthopedic
Physical Therapy.
I'm physical therapist, Jimmy McKay.
Today,
our guest has extensive experience
in ergonomics, human factors,
and body mechanics.
He focuses primarily on
preventing and managing
musculoskeletal injuries in
the workforce.
Dr. Gordon Riddle, welcome to Orthostatic.
Hi, Jimmy.
Thanks for having me.
All right.
So we have to go big picture
first because I don't want
to assume that everybody
listening or watching on
YouTube actually
understands what workplace help is.
I understand what workplace
is and I understand what health is.
But when you put those things together,
what does workplace health mean to you?
How do you describe it?
Yeah, I think it's a good point.
And I don't think I knew
that whenever I first kind
of started out in clinical practice.
But as I reflect,
I think there's maybe like
a couple of different
pillars as a physical
therapist that we would look at.
And one of those would be
ergonomic assessments,
which that kind of gives us
the ability to make
recommendations or
adaptations to the workplace.
workplace design.
So even work with like
engineering on trying to design, um,
like if it's a new build or
a new building or a new, I guess,
a change in process,
like being on the front end
of that to try to really
design and have the workers, um, um,
physical health and
musculoskeletal system in mind on that.
Um,
a lot of it also is training and
education.
So,
which can be like movement training or
safe lift training, um,
And then maybe what more PTs
are a little bit more
comfortable with is
mobility and stretching
flexibility programs,
strengthening and fitness programs.
And then even on like the pre-hire side,
like fit for duty type of evaluations,
or even helping to kind of come up with,
I guess, a process or a test, so to speak,
for a worker to maybe take
before they actually
or put into the job.
So try to help the worker to
be successful in whatever
job that they're in.
That's a good overview.
All right.
So I think you might've
touched on a couple of
those things in those pillars,
but how can orthopedic
physical therapists
contribute to workplace health programs?
You mentioned a couple of
different big areas, but you know,
when your work with
students or educating other
physical therapists on this, this,
this location or the way
physical therapists get to
interface with humans,
how can orthopedic PTs
contribute to workplace health programs?
Yeah.
So really kind of,
How do we how do we tailor
workplace health programs
to to the worker?
So like kind of performing
an ergonomic assessment and
really kind of integrating
that into the workforce?
You know,
so I guess kind of thinking about.
assessing or going into to
the to the to the workplace,
looking at the observation
or observing the worker,
kind of do their job and
then trying to use our
analytical brain to
identify what it is that
that we see that could be improved.
So is the person and is
their posture less than
optimal or do they lack
range of motion to do a
certain part of the job?
And then from there kind of
coming up with either
individualized or job
specific kind of programs
to help improve the worker themselves,
right?
Like to allow them to kind
of live a little bit
maybe with less risk of
developing an injury or
also maybe less pain, um,
in their job or even at home.
So, yeah.
Yeah.
It seems like wherever a
worker is going to
interface with their job,
whether that be a piece of
equipment or whatever,
whatever motion they're going to be, uh,
uh,
performing a lot or all day and what
position those bodies and
feels like PT really is,
is pretty poised to be at
that intersection.
Yeah.
I mean, absolutely.
I think we are kind of movement experts.
We have the ability to, um,
you know,
help people to move better and
minimize maybe some of
their inefficiencies,
which ultimately kind of
like companies and employers like as well,
like they like efficiencies
and they also want to
minimize worker time off.
So I think if we have kind of a healthier,
more well workforce, then we would,
tend to have a little bit
better productivity and, um, also, um,
you know, maybe just a little bit less,
uh,
people missing work less for various
reasons as well.
So, yeah.
Uh, I'm sure there are a lot,
but maybe let's just stick
to a couple of the common
workplace injuries that
physical therapists can help, you know,
prevent or, or manage.
What are some of the ones
that come to mind when I,
when I mentioned that?
Yeah,
I think back pain is such a common
thing among non-workers.
So I think it's still back
and neck pain is a really
common workplace injury,
but also overuse type of conditions.
So when you think about tendinopathy,
tendinitis, plantar foot pain,
things like that.
But really when we get to prevention,
like I work a lot in
industry and in the
environment where the
worker is on the clock and working.
And I tell people that I
don't treat the injured
worker because if they have an injury,
then they need to actually
go through the appropriate
processes by OSHA and
submit some type of report.
And that kind of changes the
whole dynamics.
So on my end, it's a little bit,
kind of maybe a little bit
more on the preventative side.
And I look for people who
maybe complain of soreness
or stiffness or mention
that there's something that
they find challenging in their job.
And then I try to kind of
intervene on the front end
to try to make improvements
for them so they don't
actually have a point of
where they have maybe
symptoms that would cause
them to report an injury, so.
Good.
Now,
how do you tailor wellness programs
for different work
environments when work can
mean a lot of things to a
lot of different people?
So what's your approach?
How can you tailor those
programs for those
multifaceted different work environments?
Yeah.
I mean,
usually whenever I work in specific
industries,
I like to go and spend time
with the employees and kind of
If they're on the road,
I like to ride along.
If they're in a warehouse,
I like to kind of stand
next to them and see what
they're doing and really
get to know them and talk
to them and talk to the
safety team and talk to the
executive leadership team
and gather information first.
And then once I kind of see
and understand the job
demands and the tasks
themselves and the environment,
I think the environment's
really important and that's
where ergonomics comes in.
Then I'll try to develop or
see what the priorities are
and see what's realistic to
implement some type of a program.
So for instance,
a union versus a non-union
environment might have a
little bit different
implications on where
they're able to kind of
implement some type of a
wellness program.
And that being said,
know I'm always trying to
balance optimal with like
realistic or doable right
like optimal would be no
restrictions I can do what
I want everybody kind of
they they do aerobic
conditioning at work they
do strength training
several days a week they're
working on balance training
right but that's not
necessarily that's not
necessarily realistic so
it's what how much time do
I have and what is the
highest priority and then I
try to kind of fit that to
it's um the specific
worker and or company that
I'm working with at that time.
Yeah.
Any work environments that
you'd want to mention?
I mean, I think when I picture, you know,
workplace health,
I picture a lot of factories.
I picture a lot of loading facilities.
But what are some, you know,
work and workplace
environments that maybe
people wouldn't necessarily
picture that a PT, you know,
a PT has been in?
Yeah, for sure.
So, I mean, I've worked in warehousing.
So, like,
that's probably kind of more what
you were kind of imagining or thinking.
So,
you know,
essentially people kind of making
orders and it's really in
the grocery industry is
where I do a lot of my, uh, consultation.
Um, so they're kind of building pallets of,
of cases of product that go
to stores and then they're
loading it on trucks.
And then actually, um,
I've done a fair amount in
the retail side,
actually on the grocery store side, uh,
which is, I think maybe a little bit, um,
interesting or surprising, um,
to some degree.
So like really,
I'm in the other side of the environment.
So where they have to unload
the truck and break down
the pallet and take things
to their designated area.
And then they have to essentially,
you know,
a grocery store has a produce department,
a deli, a prepared foods,
a meat department,
obviously their grocery goods, a bakery.
Right.
So like in each department,
there's several different
jobs and some have, you know,
in our opinion,
like greater risk than
others when it comes to
kind of movement type disorders.
So that's probably one area
where I've spent the most time.
I've also worked in like a
medical tech company on
their production side.
So like they have an
assembly line and they also
have a receiving area.
Um, as well as, um, um, kind of a,
a team that helps to quality control.
So like it's a, and an office,
like there was a
significant amount of
office employees there as well.
So, um,
and then the last one I actually
did was I worked with a, uh,
that I can think of anyway,
off the top of my head is I
worked with a nonprofit that, um,
they actually.
they quote rescue food.
So they rescue food that's
going to spoil and then
they give it to those that
are less fortunate.
So like one of the,
and so they go all around
the city and pick up
different items and then
they have to try to
distribute them to like
local food pantries or
churches or co-ops and things like that.
And that was kind of
interesting because I was
like literally spent the
day on the road with these people.
And, you know,
not only are they driving hours and hours,
they have to climb up in
and out of a box truck
in and out of the basement of a church.
And they're handling every
single package by hand at
least four times.
So there's lots of repetition.
Yeah.
And you've touched on this a few times,
but talk about what role
ergonomic assessment plays
in workplace health.
It feels like that's your
chance to get your eyes or
some measurements on the
human involved in this.
Yeah, for sure.
So ergonomics is really kind
of fitting the workplace to the worker,
right?
So it's actually not fitting
the worker to the workplace,
it's fitting the
environment and to the
working population or the
worker and that interface.
You know, so if we can really, like,
we have to, like you said,
we have two ability,
two components where we can influence.
And one of those is the worker.
And that's kind of our
traditional stuff that we can think about,
such as like range of
motion and strength and
flexibility and endurance,
things like that,
that physical therapists,
it's kind of in our
wheelhouse versus like the
environment is kind of like, you know,
it's our investigative eye.
Like we want to make sure,
and people have different statures,
right?
So the more adjustability
there is in a workplace, the better.
So I mentioned the bakery
before and a cake decorator,
somebody who's decorating
cookies or cupcakes or something, right?
Somebody might be five feet
and somebody might be six, four.
So we have to be able to
kind of change the level for that person.
But the principles of how
they move shouldn't really change.
Like that's what we do from
a PT standpoint is how we
move those principles stay the same,
but any type of adjustment
we can have is really kind
of what we're looking at in ergonomics.
And I've also worked on a
little bit on the engineering side where
trying to determine like
what is an appropriate
height for a certain amount of weight,
according to like the gross population,
right?
How much,
if 75 to 90 percentile of the population,
like how can we get to
where they can succeed in
whatever environment they're working in?
So those are,
that's probably where I spend
most time kind of
ergonomically is trying to
balance and improve
patient's posture or not
the patient really,
I guess it's the worker, right?
The worker's posture and
their interface to reduce
stress on joints, ligaments, and muscles.
Let's go big picture now.
How can physical therapists
advocate for health and wellness at work?
Is this physical therapist
approaching an organization?
It could be physical
therapists educating
someone who is now downstream, a worker.
How would you answer that?
How can PTs advocate for
health and wellness at the workplace?
Yeah, I think at the workplace,
I mentioned this maybe a
little bit earlier, is like a healthy,
well worker is best for
kind of our whole workforce dynamic.
So like to a company or a corporation,
you know,
like typically a PT that's gonna
consult or work in industry,
they're gonna be
compensated by the company
that they're working with, right?
And ultimately if we can
kind of help to influence
that culture up top is
really what helps to drive
kind of benefits downstream.
So ultimately like the
worker is who I feel that I work for,
even though like the
company is who compensates
me for my time.
And it's really that biopsychosocial model,
right?
So we try to kind of with
statistics and data, try to help to
influence a company to have
a safety first culture.
And then that in that safety first culture,
maybe we should really think about,
you know,
because part of safety is
environment and health and wellness,
and how can we have an optimal
uh optimally healthy and
well employee that's going
to really help to drive um
you know kind of the
culture and the buy-in so a
lot of times people feel if
a company is invested in
them that they're gonna you
know maybe work um work
good work hard for that
company um versus if they
say one thing and do
another then that creates
kind of a bad culture um
as well.
So like big picture,
I think there's a lot of
opportunity in the, in the profession, um,
in kind of health and
wellness at work and ergonomics.
Um,
but also it's getting in front of the
right people.
Like I don't, you know,
workers sometimes have limited, um,
limited ability to influence,
but it's just kind of
continuing to network and, um, really
You know, I think HR,
people in the HR side of
things are interested
because they wanna make
sure that they maintain the
high quality employee
that's right for the job.
And then also, you know,
a lot of my contacts have
been really in the health
and safety profession.
So people that are really
interested in the safety of the worker.
not just kind of from an OSHA standpoint,
but even OSHA's
Occupational Safety and
Health Administration, right?
So they really do care about
the health of the worker.
And that's kind of under
musculoskeletal injuries or
work-related
musculoskeletal injuries is
really where we kind of spend our time.
In your experience,
what are the big KPIs that
either HR organizations pay attention to?
I'm sure, you know, lost productivity,
you know,
reducing the number of days
workers are out.
Are there other metrics that
really make their eyebrows
go up when someone like
yourself starts talking to
about what a PT can do?
Yeah, I mean,
I think you hit it with
productivity is a key one.
And then also, like,
dart rate is days away
restricted time is really
something so dart d-a-r-t
is days away restricted
time and that's what a
worker that's kind of an
osha metric that's driven
um so you know that's
that's who they really
answer to is osha so like I
think that those are the
metrics that they that they
care about and the life
cycle of a worker's
compensation claim like um
if you know the
if you have data and
statistics on the cost for
an employee to be in the
workers' compensation kind of system,
then there's a little bit more
money lost not just in costs
for workers compensation
but as you mentioned kind
of lost productivity so
like you know prevention is
hard to measure like it's
not an easy metric to to
try to to measure and
justify but I think I even
think the profession as a
whole it's kind of where
we're where we're headed
hopefully even in our
medical system and
reimbursement would be to
that prevention side but um
you know, if we can put it, unfortunately,
or fortunately,
I think if we put a dollar
sign to how if we reduce injuries by 10%,
like this is your
your savings and ultimately
like when I talk like
that's the kind of the
pitch to the executive
leadership team and or
those that are making those
decisions but to the worker
themselves you know I just
I just tell them like we
want we want you to go home
and enjoy life outside of
work right like work work
can be fun and enjoyable
and it should be but
ultimately like we all work
to have a some type of a
enjoyment outside of
outside of work so whatever
it is that you like to do um
With your friends, with your family,
for yourself is really
where we want you to succeed.
So we want you to feel just
as good at home as you do at work.
So leave in the same way you came in.
If a physical therapist is listening,
what are some resources
you'd suggest that people can get,
can use,
can learn from that will help
them in this particular setting?
Yeah, I think, you know,
as far as kind of the
occupational health special
interest group here with
the Academy of Orthopedics
is a really great resource.
They have newsletters, they have podcasts,
they have webinars.
They have a kind of a home
study course to current
concepts of occupational
health and archive and
guidelines that are all archived as well.
They have a recently kind of
come out with a
occupational health
practitioner certification as well.
So like, that's another.
kind of component that give
you a little bit of a
deeper dive and become
certified professionally.
I think that's another component,
maybe even like bigger
picture outside of the PT world.
I think the health and safety industry,
as I mentioned before,
several different states.
So like,
I think the state of Ohio and
Washington state,
Bureau of Labor, like they have,
they have some pretty good
resources on worker health
and safety and ergonomics.
And even ergonomic,
like ergonomics themselves,
there are specific
ergonomic certifications
through kind of a certified
professional ergonomist is
a certification that would
be worth maybe kind of exploring,
depending on what level you
wanted to invest or spend
time in this part of the practice.
And we'll put the link to
those Academy of Orthopedic
Physical Therapy resources.
And you mentioned that's a
three-step program on your
way of earning a
certificate in this particular area.
Last thing we do on the show, Gordon,
is called words of wisdom.
Try to wow people.
Words of wisdom.
What would you want to leave
people with who've been listening so far?
Yeah.
I mean, I guess words of wisdom.
So when we think about
physical therapy and in the
outpatient world, like you,
I mean,
generally you're seeing one or two
patients at a time in
outpatient physical therapy.
And as I've reflected over
some of the work that I've
done in developing
trainings and being a part of,
integrated part of a health
and wellness program with a
company for almost a decade, like,
had the ability to kind of
influence tens of thousands
of people that I've never even met.
So I really think like the
reach or scalability and
reach in the occupational
health and wellness and
ergonomics realm is really
great and fantastic.
So I think, you know,
we have that ability.
if you kind of get in with
the company that has the
right culture and is really
invested in their worker
and kind of just global
health and wellness, like I think that's,
I think there's a ton of opportunities,
something that you can be
excited about and really
gives us the ability to
have potentially a huge impact and
don't even know the scale of your impact,
but you could change
somebody's life for the better.
So yeah,
I think that's something that I
reflect upon.
Very much so.
Gordon,
thanks so much for helping us
understand better the role
of orthopedic physical
therapy in workplace health.
Appreciate your time.
Thank you, Jimmy.
I appreciate you having me on.