If I may, sir,
I've seen things in this house I've never spoken of.
I've seen Dou who dwells in the dark dimension.
I've seen the flash entering the speed force and
I've seen CYA being mechi.
And welcome to the zero credit supplement, the reading of 20,
20 ones, a Spiderman, no way home directed by John Watts.
My name is John.
And I'm Henry.
And if you haven't been to a zero credit supplemental reading before a little
background, uh, me and my friend Henry,
get together to talk about something that we consider to be culturally
important, or we just like, uh,
but we do assume that you have seen, uh,
said work in its entirety before engaging. So we will discuss,
Spider-Man no way home with full spoilers. So if you're cool with being spoiled,
keep listening, it's not gonna have a lot of like utility to you. Uh,
so I'd recommend that you either have seen the movie already or you go see
it and come back, but also, you know, let the episode keep playing.
So we get like bumped in, what are whatever algorithm, the podcast,
uh, thing you've got us from ranks us. I don't know how the internet works.
Wait, so yeah, please pause it if you, if you intend to watch the movie first,
but don't never come back and not hit play again,
cuz that hurts our metrics. So pause it,
but come back and eventually hit play again and listen all the
way through that being said, let's get into it.
You could also listen a few times if you wanted to.
I don't know if that helps us, but you know, maybe repeat listens are a thing.
Maybe like turn the volume up really loud.
I don't know if the algorithm cares about that.
Oh, we have no metrics to re repeat plays or volume with.
We have no metrics for those.
Okay. So just play it once, but do see this movie.
Yeah, no, it's a good movie for, but yeah, it's an interesting movie. Uh,
it's a movie that I, I think has some buy-in uh, John.
Oh.
I, I think this movie requires a little bit of viewing beforehand.
Uh, yes, this is, I'm actually gonna say in terms of movies,
generally,
this might be the movie with the most required homework.
And, and, and that sets up an interesting conversation,
I think maybe for the end,
but certainly these Marvel movies are setting a precedent of like it's
rewarding a viewer.
That's seen movies that have come out before it to a degree to
a large part they'll hand wave explanations of things that happened or,
or things like that. But this one, it doesn't pull any punches.
Yeah. In terms of what is required for this movie. I mean, uh,
to your point, Marvel movies,
generally since the creation of the MCU reward,
like a certain, uh,
intertextual awareness in the audience to be aware of other
texts in the Corpus, whereas this movie, uh,
kind of requires that of you and is also about that in a very
pointed way, but this is also all built on top of, uh,
two very good Spider-Man movies.
It it's crazy to think that for everything this movie does,
it still has the skeleton of some of the more successful Spider-Man
movies ever made under all this stuff.
Yeah. I,
I think this movie in a vacuum without two very good,
you know,
successful Spider-Man stories before it would not work if we were being thrown
in to this situation without the,
like you say the skeleton without that framework, I,
I think you just don't do this movie, the, the,
or you do it and you do it so poorly. No one sees another Spider-Man movie.
Again.
I,
I almost feel as though our conversation about this is going to
inevitably include a lot of different works of I'm gonna call it spider
art.
yes.
Uh, so I,
I do wanna say that we're probably gonna talk about the shape
and texture of the, what,
what do you even call this trilogy of Spider-Man movies?
The, the home trilogy, I guess.
The, the home trilogy. I, I think that we're gonna talk about the home trilogy,
the least. Uh, so I do wanna make sure that I'm saying these movies are,
are good generally, and I like them quite a bit. Uh,
but this movie in a lot of ways is not about those movies.
right. Well, it it's super interesting because the, this home trilogy,
this Tom Holland Spider-Man trilogy has had the unique honor and
privilege to be the connective tissue of the entire Marvel
cinematic universe throughout three different phases. Like it is,
it's the last movie that, that starts,
that kind of ends one phase and kicks off another phase.
And it's done that three times now.
So it is always been in a weird spot in the overall bigger picture.
But then at the end of the day,
the thing that really makes these home movies really good is that connectively,
it, it, they work as a, a standalone trilogy as well.
Absolutely.
And I think you do raise an interesting point cuz the thing that these movies
have over all the other Marvel movies, first of all,
they're in a very unique position creatively and legally
in that they are Sony pictures, movies. Yes. Uh,
made in conjunction with Marvel studios.
And they're not solely the intellectual property of Marvel studios,
but they have the best superhero in them.
At least the best Marvel superhero.
The thing is no one really cared that much about
everyone who's been in the Avengers really,
but everyone cares about Spider-Man that's fine.
I like the Spider-Man movies have been the ones that the broadest audience can
rally around.
Absolutely.
I mean the Sam rainy Spider-Man trilogy kind of in a way,
revitalized the superhero movie as a genre,
like before it was a Superman Batman,
some black exploitation films that are really good and a worth watching and
like blade interestingly enough. Um, but yeah,
the Sam Rainey Spider-Man movies kind of brought superhero movies back into the
forefront and gave,
they gained enough traction that I really think Marvel is like, Hey,
why don't we try to do this on our own without selling the rights to our
characters off.
I mean the Sam rain Spider-Man movies, uh,
walked so that additional superhero movies could run,
they did something very difficult and that they made something. I mean,
at that point, a huge budget superhero movie was a weird gamble.
No one was really willing to take and they did it and there were massive
cultural phenomenon.
Oh yeah, absolutely. They, I mean.
They and blade too blade was blade was all so good.
Blade and blade too were all also good, but I mean, Spiderman,
the Sam Ramey Spiderman movies are, are, you know,
single handedly held up. What was that band?
Um.
Oh, Chad Kroger slash Nickelback.
Nickelback. See it, it kept Nickelback in the,
uh, hero. It's the number one? Chad Kroger hero.
Yep. That's great. Yeah. You know,
it it's kept them alive in the cultural consciousness for uh,
longer than they should have been probably.
Yeah, absolutely. Uh, just phenomenally important movies,
uh, that gave us the MCU for,
for all of its ills and also the opposite of ills, all,
all the good memories.
Absolut. So yeah.
So these home movies are built on the backs of giants.
You got Sam Ramey and the,
the trilogy of Toby McGuire Spiderman that came before it.
And then you've got Mark Webb and a couple of movies with Andrew Garfield
Spiderman as well, leading into the whoever directed these, uh,
noway home, not noway homes, these home trilogy Spiderman.
They weren't all directed by the same guy.
Right. They were all directed by John Watts and John Watts had
directed basically nothing other than episodes of the onion news network
before.
This. Fascinating. I love that incredible.
About him. Incredible directorial blow up like geez. Wow.
I think one of the greatest things about these Spider-Man three series
is that,
that they were one person's vision brought to life and yeah,
there was meddling by executives throughout,
but at the end of the day, we can say the Ramy trilogy, the mark web duo,
and now the John Watts trilogy,
like we can call them that because these it's like a,
it's like the George Lucas star wars.
wait isn't.
Singular vision, uninterrupted.
Uninterrupted throughout time. Totally singular vision.
I gotta say John Watts did a great job on pretty much all of these movies. Oh.
Phenomenal, phenomenal, direct directing.
Power. Like especially this one, just, I don't know,
like quick high level points that I really appreciate about this
trilogy that we're not gonna get into right too much,
because we haven't ever talked about one of these on the podcast is the
casting of Jay Jonah Jameson to be an Alex Jones type conspiracy
theorist fringe, nut job. So good. Yeah.
Kick out of the, uh, the daily bugle, get him out of the mainstream medium,
make go independent, make him go indie and underground,
but be like one of those podcast bros in their basement, you know,
they're shouting at an audience that apparently he's gathered.
That's phenomenal cuz it's, that's more modern, a more modern take on the,
on the JJ J character.
And I mean these movies, uh, up through the third,
maybe this is less true for no way home,
but homecoming and far from home both had probably two of the
most interesting convincing villains of any of the Marvel
movies who actually had like backgrounds.
What's fascinating to me about these Marvel movies is that for these Spider-Man
movies, is that for the most part Spider-Man is playing cleanup for the trauma
caused by other superheroes.
Yeah. He's on cleanup duty. It,
it it's really great how this trilogy, honestly,
it's given us the best villains in comic book movies lately.
Like I lo the first segment of homecoming that it
introduces us to, uh, tombs the joke, the joker.
listen, they broke a lot of new ground with the spider man.
There's the joker .
Uh.
Think he's thinking of the Jo.
Introduces Jacob tombs as the joker. God, it.
, it's all staying in.
It's all staying in. I.
Apologize. I know what word I'm trying to say.
The will will get it on the third one.
Introduces tombs as the vulture.
.
That segment that opening, it's a cold open to a movie, which is great.
I love cold opens, give 'em to me all day long. Uh, but it just focuses on like,
this is where the villain is coming from.
Is he a bad guy or is he just a guy dealt the bad hand who might have chosen the
wrong way to go about it? And like, boom,
instantly it's like empathetic villain as in the audience is empathetic to the
villain.
And now we gotta watch a villain that we kind of feel for versus the hero
that we're gonna root for.
And that's just such more interesting to me of a plot than
this is the evil version of spider band. You have to fight now.
I mean,
it's always so much better when you have a villain that's intensely likable. Uh,
and even you, you get the two versions, right?
You get the villain to Spiderman, which is the vulture.
And then you get the villain to Peter Parker slash every teenage boy,
the overreaching. Cool. But scary dad. Yes.
Uh, of your, uh, of your wannabe, significant other. Now don't get me wrong.
Uh, we've had some great villains in all of these movies,
including really,
really just green Golan really is the only one who's with super Thomas Hayden
church likable. You know what? They're all fine.
Who's Thomas Hayden church.
Sandman.
Flint. Marco. You.
Mean? Yeah. Flint Marco.
Okay. Well I don't know people's names.
Uh, no, they're, they're all great. Uh, but yes, that,
that is a huge shout out that I'd like to give to these movies. Uh,
they all have the best characterizations of villains.
Uh, honestly, like I I've, Batman's supposed to have this great rogues gallery.
I don't see it. I think Spider-Man has the best villains and comics.
I mean, I, I don't think you're wrong. Spider-Man's villains are great.
And these, these Spider-Man th in particular,
these three Spider-Man movies really nailed what a Spider-Man
villain feels like, which is like weirdly likable, very evil.
Yes. But like kind of understandable,
even if they're just insane from gas.
I mean, who hasn't been driven insane by a little gas before.
Who hasn't been locked in a chamber and assaulted with green gas for so long
that you kill a guy .
And also like who among us could say,
we wouldn't be tempted by the newfound power being dropped in a VAD
of electric eels.
yeah. Who among us,
wouldn't be some nerd who just falls into some electric eels
who among us wouldn't lizard.
.
If given the choice.
And once,
once having lizard wanted to lizard everyone else,
like this is just these, this is just the price of being human.
I, I feel like at this point where we're barely restraining ourselves from the
desire to talk about the villains in this movie.
So we might as well get into it.
Well, I do wanna say one thing about the original, the, the,
the tone trilogy and,
and that the online people tear the first two movies
apart. And it's the characterization of Spider-Man.
They don't like not the characterization, but, but the, uh,
the circumstances around the character, they don't like that.
He's basically like a mini Ironman,
cuz he's got this fancy suit and like he's got all these resources
at his disposal to basically to save the day of
technology. They're like, that's not what Spiderman's about.
Spiderman is about being poor, sad,
and that's where their complaints are coming from. Uh,
so I just wanna say to all those people who hated the Tom hall and Spiderman
coming into this movie, boy, did the writers listen to you?
Yes, I, uh,
I had similar have had for quite some time a similar argument because
you know me, I'm a big spider head.
A web head, as you, as it were.
I've never heard the term, but you and I both like very big Spider-Man fans.
And I had a very similar argument after seeing
the first movie where a big reason why people are invested in the
character of Spider-Man is because of adversity.
And that is why I'm not like super into the Ironman movies,
because if a person just has infinite everything it's for the most part,
not like super compelling to watch except the first one, which is great.
Um,
I mean that's why the character book version of the character is a little bit
better. Cause he is also battling crippling alcoholism.
Yeah. They didn't, they really didn't put that in the movie for some reason.
Ah, go.
Weird. But I, I will say that it,
this clearly wasn't planned out from the beginning,
but like seeing that occur in slow motion
is,
is certainly an interesting way to go about giving that to the
character.
I'm sorry. You're gonna need to clarify a couple of that.
So giving adversity, ah,
in the way we've become accustomed to for Spider-Man right.
Making that a slow burn over three movies. It,
it is strangely impactful to have a character who becomes
Spider-Man lives as Spider-Man for years.
And then has that happen to them?
It's almost like this movie is a reverse origin story. You know,
we start with an established hero who then over,
over the course of one movie comes to very humble
beginnings.
yeah. You're, you're totally not wrong. Uh, it,
it is honestly the first,
the first Spider-Man movie homecoming is like the
it's the climax of a three movie trilogy, cuz he is with the Avengers and he is,
he's fighting an man and the winter soldier is there.
And then the second one's a little bit more paired down. It's a,
it's a little bit more. And then the first one, other than the, uh,
insane multiverse stuff is like, uh, it,
it walks it back through to an origin story. You're totally right.
And that's why I think it works. So this I,
this movie works on so many different levels, but the main part is we don't,
I mean, one, it it's mainly about the Spiderman we're watching.
I was gonna call him our Spiderman. That doesn't mean anything.
And this context, it's it,
we're mostly watching this one Spiderman and this is sort of the end slash
beginning of his journey.
Mm-hmm and all of this crazy stuff is built around that.
I don't know if that makes sense.
No, that does totally make sense. Okay. I, I,
I do it,
it felt a little odd to me in the theater because everyone who has
ever seen any Spider-Man thing and cares,
cares about with great power must also become great responsibility, et cetera.
Uh.
Yeah. It's one of the most quoted lines and, and PO popular culture.
Yeah. But it's almost,
it's interesting to me in a way that this character had to be taught
that lesson a lot of different ways, right. At the very end.
Yeah.
Got his head head over time and time again and was taught in,
in stages almost you, you know, I, I,
I don't know how to get into it really, but like taught
it's almost as if this movie was written to teach him that lesson
three or four different times.
yes. At least one for each Spiderman.
Right. Okay. So now I think we can just get right into it.
I just wanted to set up the premise, the idea that like, look all of you,
people who are whining, um, that's mean all of the people who had valid.
Complains. No, no, no, no. I'll stop you right there.
People whine about these movies. I,
I did a fun little bit where I was trying to like do like the Butler from
Spider-Man three and I was looking up like bad quotes from MCU movies to see if
I could put one of those in there.
Everyone complains about fucking everything about these.
Movie. Okay. Right.
You can say wine.
I, I did. I just wanna,
I really feel like this movie came out of an impetus to address those concerns
in a way that left. No one happy .
I, uh, yeah. I, I can see that. I don't know. I,
I like that this movie stood up for a lot,
but then I don't know. I,
I wonder ultimately how much good work has been
undone. I don't know. We'll we'll talk about it.
We'll explore this idea a little bit.
Right. So let's get into it. So this movie, uh, it starts Tom Holland.
Yeah.
And Zaya Zendaya.
Zendaya is mechi.
She's mechi and Benedict Cumberbatch.
Those are the three people that it says stars on IMDB.
So I'm assuming those are the only three people in the.
Movie. Yeah. That's, that's pretty much it. Uh, it also has a John fro.
Right. He plays happy Hogan.
Can we talk about happy Hogan for a second?
Let's make this whole episode about happy Hogan.
Can we talk about the increasing mortification of one happy Hogan?
I feel like the real, the real victim of the NCU is happy. Hogan.
I, I think like the, the way that happy Hogan started was like,
like a cool, uh.
Like.
Like a kind of savvy security detail guy. Yeah.
He was the quippy Bardi bodyguard to, to Ironman.
Like that was it.
And,
and now he's just like a overweight guy who can't hold down a relationship with
a C P mask.
Yeah.
And he's on the hook for stolen stark technology that he's
definitely going to jail for. Like he's having a bad, he's having a bad time.
Yeah. He, he is not having a happy time. Uh, it,
it is maybe one of the more interesting character arcs throughout all of these
movies,
cuz he is been in at least in the background of basically all of them
and we've got to see, 'em like really get, uh,
laying low mm-hmm uh, over time. Which you gotta,
you gotta appreciate.
I I guess yeah, sure.
Listen. I mean, John Favre was in chef and he slept with Scarlet Johansson.
So put him in fiction where he's not doing so great. Is what I'm saying.
Make it even.
I, I think, yeah,
I think that's exactly what's happening to the character of hack ho
and now he's not even gonna be in him cuz you know, he has no reason to be.
he's there's just gonna be a whole happy Hogan movie.
Oh I cannot wait for the happy Hogan glow up.
Oh yeah. It, listen, they need to replace Spiderman. in the lineup.
They don't really, uh, they, they need, they need to fill it up with something.
So it's gonna be happy origins.
Yeah. Let's yeah.
That's that's the one people they're clamoring for an origin story to Ironman's
bodyguard.
Yeah. They're like no more doctor strange. No more. She Hulk only happy.
Step aside. Moon night. It's happy Hogan time.
That's actually how the movie starts. He steps in front of Oscar,
Isaac and says step aside, moon night.
we're writing, we're writing this movie in real time. It's great.
I don't know how to start talking about the movie.
There's so much. I just have like a,
a bunch of notes about things that I liked, but like, yeah.
And I definitely have thoughts about this movie, but it's,
it's a hard movie to just talk about.
Yeah. E especially, cuz like we can't,
we definitely can't go line by line cuz that would take forever.
And the people we're talking to just watched it,
they know what happened in the movie.
Yeah. It would. It would be silly to do that maybe.
Okay. I know how to get into this Uhhuh.
I say as I turn away from the mic for no reason. Uh, okay.
And each of these movies, apparently Jay Jonah, Jameson has been in it.
He has been a character. He has been a factor.
This is the movie where he is the main villain.
Uh, you are not entirely wrong.
How am I? How am I? How am I a little wrong?
there, there is.
I mean there are literal villains, but yes,
Jay Jonah Jameson is create,
creates the events that make this movie possible. Also, man,
I know it's called attention to in the movie,
but if I was a teenager with access to a wizard,
I would absolutely ask the wizard to change reality before I made even one phone
call.
Oh no, that was a yes. That is an amazing detail. Like
it is so well written. It feels like it's ripped out of reality where it's like,
wait, you can call them. They sent the letter, like,
isn't that the final say it's like the first time you realize you can
make your own doctor's appointment.
Yeah.
it's like your, your world is literally broadening. No. Yeah.
I would go to a magic wizard to ask them to change reality before I even thought
about trying to appeal.
I mean, if you look at, if you look at what happens,
Jay Jonah Jameson directly responsible for the death of Marissa tome.
Absolutely.
Which is so the part that stings the most it's it's one
of my favorite scenes in this movie.
Not for how it makes me feel or anything like that.
It it's the scene it's raining and Spiderman mask off
is just watching uh, uh, a building size, Joe Jagen
what is his name?
Jay Jonah. Jameson.
Thank you. Is watching a building sized Jay Jonah,
Jayson blame him for his aunt's death.
Yes.
And like that's where the rage is.
That's where the darkness is because the guy responsible
is now publicly pinning the blame of his aunt's death on him.
Like how do you not go fucking punch a building down with your spider
powers? I don't understand how he, how he reigns it in.
What I really appreciate. Uh,
I know that I said one thing that I like about these movies is the re-casting is
Jay Joma, Jay Jonah, Jay Jonah,
Jameson as an Alex Jones type.
But they really in the darker moments actually get to the truly
insidious parts of characters like Alex Jones,
which is blaming innocent people for
horrible things that happened in their lives.
And obviously with the movie being shot from a sympathetic perspective of
Peter Parker, we can see how wrong all of that is. Uh, but to,
to keep that very real phenomenon in these movies does feel like the
writers, uh, specifically had an ax to grind against people like Alex Jones.
Well, I even if they're not like taking that sort of agenda to it,
they're definitely drawing inspiration from these kinds of
people who go on public or national television and
accuse parents who have lost children of, of being crisis actors. Like that's,
that's the same energy here as pinning the death and the destruction
of that building on Spider-Man when Spider-Man was just trying to do the right
thing. You know?
I mean, honestly, if you look at these movies an aggregate, they kind of,
I know we said they have the best villains,
but I think they're the only Marvel movies that actually have villains that say
anything about modern society. Uh, because the, the vulture,
I is a critique largely on like government overreach and taking jobs
from people and people not being able to make a living wage, doing honest work.
Yeah. I mean, yeah.
So they have to turn to crime.
The vulture is the most like I, if there was any villain, okay,
this is gonna be as stupidest. The stupidest thing I say on this episode,
if there were any villains, Republicans would get behind the most,
it would be the vulture.
. Yeah. And you know what?
The vulture is the kind of Republican where I'd be like, I'm not that,
but I get it. Right.
Right. Okay. Moving on. Yes. You're you're right. Yeah.
And Mysterio was a like, well tuned,
exceptionally well researched,
feeling less media Maven who knew exactly how to
turn public opinion in his favor and against those,
he didn't like and had a years long plan to do.
So like Mysterio was TMZ.
Oh yeah. TMZ with the, uh,
the poison pill or the dead man switch to ruin the life of the person who
stops their plan. Yeah. so vindictive to the level of like,
even in death, I will ruin your life.
And then of course you get the, uh,
objective villain of Spider-Man no way home,
which is someone who is willing to do and say
anything and ruin innocent people's lives for clout.
And, and I do mean, I, I, I would contend that I am absolutely correct. Joe,
Jay Jameson. I can't say his name right tonight. For some reason.
Jay Jonah Jameson is the villain of no way home.
All of the other supposed villains are merely victims of circumstance.
They didn't ask to be there. They're,
they're kind of just sort of falling into the circumstances,
the cards that were dealt with them. I will you track my statement?
I forgot green Golan is a menace.
Well, green Golan is a menace,
but green Golan or uh, God,
what's green. Goblin's person name.
Norman Norman Osborne.
Uh, Norman Osborne does not want to do villain shit when he finds
himself weirdly in a new universe, it's just true.
He's gone crazy with the green gas.
I very much.
Do the only person who acts in a villainous way that in,
in a way that is not directly related to green gas is electro.
Yes. Who, who basically who,
who was basically,
once they all find out like that they were ripped to another universe moments
before their depths. Like I think electro sort of hit the hardest was like,
wait a second. But I got my body back. Like I didn't even have a body where,
when I got ripped out of my universe, now I got this body. And like,
your electricity is so much better than ours.
Mm-hmm and my power is based on electricity.
I get it. I get why he basically wants to be a living. God. I mean,
he finally has the opportunity to use the most of the, this,
this horrible gifted curse that he's been given.
Yeah. Cuz it it's true to his character of motivations,
even from amazing Spider-Man because he was a guy who
couldn't be seen and had no power and just wanted to be powerful and be
seen as a God and get what he wanted.
And this universe allows him to do that again.
Uh.
Where's your, your like doc ox, once you get rid of the problem,
doc a is a cool guy.
yeah. He never wanted to be evil. He,
he was that that inhibitor chip was broken very early on.
And the, the weird AI that lives in those arms is,
was influencing him to do evil.
It's a really fascinating juggling act that this movie does juggling
the motivations of these characters in a way that it does
ultimately lead to a physical confrontation with all of them.
Even including like, uh, Flynn, Marco, he just wants that box thing.
Right? Cause he thinks he can go home to his daughter.
No. So I,
I think some of the best work was done with Flint Marco because once he finds
Spiderman, he's like, Peter, it's me. What's going on? Let's work this out.
And then once that, that carrot on a stick is, is put in front of him.
This is a box. If we push it, they get sent home. He can see his daughter again.
He's like, well, fuck you Spiderman. The solution I need is right there.
I just want to go home. See my daughter again. I don't need you for that.
So now I'm against you. Like it, it, it, all of the motivate,
this movie is a master class of characterization and
motivation that drives plot.
I mean, they do a phenomenal job of,
of taking these completely ludicrous characters and,
and juggling their wants and desires pretty much, perfectly.
All while insanely ripping characters from
movies that are over and extending the
life of those characters. Years later,
actors having to slip into roles.
They haven't played at maximum 20 years for Wilm to foe
a and like it's all goes off without a hitch. Everything feels natural.
Everything feels just like natural extensions of the movies that they're from.
All what I'm trying to say is the actors in these movies, no matter how small,
the role,
even the lizard who has like the smallest screen time of all the villains,
these actors worked their fucking ass off and they did a,
a phenomenal fucking job.
Yeah. I mean, I,
I guarantee you when they came to Re's Hans about being the lizard again,
he's like, I get some stuff going on, so I can't really be in it,
but I can do VO for the lizard and they're like, that's cool.
You're gonna be lizard already. Right. Uh.
Can we get you for one day?
You're just, you're just gonna say, you're just gonna say like 10 things.
And one of them was, is gonna be like,
the time has come and I bet Reese fins was like, hell yeah.
Right.
I would love to be the lizard again.
And then, you know, later on they're like, can we get you for one day?
We need you for a scene. You get UN lizard.
Yeah.
You need to stand there and look confused as you are unlisted and set back to
your home dimension. Yeah. And I bet they were, this is,
we're probably gonna say this again, but goddamnit will defo.
Jesus.
Is, is a singular actor.
And this is coming from a long time defo feed.
Oh yeah. Uh, I mean, this.
Is, he's one of the few actors that cannot
do anything less than his best.
He, this man, I,
if I would say he acts circles around everyone else,
but they're all doing stellar jobs.
So it's more like he's just at the front of the pack and they're like a step
behind, not even they're even with them, but it's just, he,
the way he portrays Normans born as like the,
the way that they've they've,
they've turned the green Goble problem into like kind akin to like a mental
illness. I think that was a really great move.
Cuz then you get that the regular Norman Osborne who we've missed for
all this time. I haven't seen in 20 years and he's a struggl struggling in this,
this new world, but then we get to see the flip switch and,
and what a great moment, because we,
the transition from Osborne to green Golin happens with his
back, turned to the camera mm-hmm but you can see it, it,
you can see the moment it happens.
Yes.
The moment when, uh, Alfred Molina, uh, doc says like, Hey,
no more darker half, you can see it's in a shoulders.
It's in the way he's breathing.
He physically transforms himself.
And then we don't see that payoff for another scene in a re another really great
scene with spider, with, uh, the spy sense, being so loud and,
and like coming from every direction.
And it it's a very tense scene that was filmed like very great
decisions made until he just does like a little movement and then boom,
that's him. And he is like, that's some neat trick of yours. Huh? Like, yeah.
Phenomenal, phenomenal acting by Norman, Bob Rubin, William defo,
William defo.
I,
one of my favorite things with will Defoe's portrayal of Norman Osborne in this
movie, is that not only I is this,
uh, is this green Golan horribly frustrating and
disheartening because he's just like cruel for no reason and exactly where you
don't want him to be when you don't want, like, he,
he is the perfect villain in that way,
but his actions and the things that he says and most
notably I'm,
I'm very glad that the green Golan mask gets destroyed early in the movie.
So that the only green goblin you see is will Defoes incredible acting
looks pathetic.
Oh yeah.
Like, like he,
he is he's bug-eyed and he can't put his teeth away and his eyes are
glazed over and he is sweaty and you pity him,
but he is cruel uh, and,
and you it's the ex it imparts to you as an
audience member. Exactly.
How you think Peter Parker must feel a little bit,
which is I hate this person so much and they are
a pitiable creature and they are extremely dangerous.
I shouldn't be punching as hard as I am, but no matter how hard I punch,
he just smiles and laughs at me.
So I have to punch harder in order to get him not to stop
smiling,
but to stop being such the big threat that he is because these
punches have stopped everyone before and they're doing nothing to him right now.
Yeah.
Not a lot of movies effectively communicate a character that is totally pitiable
and horribly dangerous. Uh, and it,
it really comes through in his performance. I mean,
let's not forget the fact that this movie,
this silly superhero movie has like three of the greatest living
actors in it in Willum defo, Alfred Molina and,
uh, Andrew Garfield,
like incredible talent is just hanging out in this movie.
And of course, uh, Tom Hardy, but you know.
, I mean, we, we, we would've accepted, I don't know,
been in a cumber bench, Mesa, tome. Um, we would've accepted.
Did you say Alfred Molina? Yeah. We, well,
we did accept that we would accepted.
Jamie Fox.
Uh, Zendaya. We would've accepted.
Yeah.
Actually Zendaya would prob should probably have taken Andrew Garfield spot in
the ranking, but you know, well, her.
She career's, you know, she's still just getting her start,
so we we'll see where she goes.
Yeah. Maybe season day in tick, tick boom, too.
tick tick. Boom was really good.
Andrew Garfield is phenomenal. I wanna watch that, that, that FBI show he is on.
I, I have never seen a better musical, but a narcissist than tick, tick, boom.
Uh, allegedly I don't.
Allegedly. All right. Um, so
great villains that, so there's a, a great moment in this hallway fight, um,
between Spiderman and green Golan. It's the moment I,
I was kind of describing before Spiderman is just punching him in the face and
William defo was just like smiling and laughing.
And I had a weird stray thought that really it it's, it's not valuable.
It's not a valuable thought,
but William defo plays a better joker as green Golan than I think many of the
jokers we've seen on the screen.
Yeah. I think will defo could be a hell of a joker. Uh,
and also that hallway fight, uh,
multiple plexes through the floor by will defo,
which is just great.
It's a funny comment that I've seen a couple in a couple of places where people
note a lot of they're just like, huh?
I don't think MMA film moves.
Would've kind of gelled in the Sam Ramey films. And it's like, why, what,
how was this your takeaway?
that is a, that is a strange takeaway.
I just liked him getting suplex through the floor.
Yeah. R.
Duplex and I'm happy.
Yeah. And like, uh, what pile drivers or dive bombs.
There were other wrestling moves in there that were just phenomenally executed.
I, I don't like crashing through floors, uh, you know, gets,
gets applause from me.
If you're gonna have, yeah.
I actually think there were less plexes and more power bombs,
I think you're right.
Yeah. No,
but if you're gonna have a superhero fight crash through some fucking floors,
let's just do it, you know, stop, stop being, stop,
stop holding back. That's that's what green Golin wanted.
Spiderman to do,
stop holding back and kill him to,
to corrupt his moral code.
Cuz all his green Golin wants to do is ruin Spiderman's day. And boy did, he.
All he wants to do is ruin his day and also eat those donuts.
Oh man. He packed his jacket full of them.
I love that his little outfit he's wearing uh,
because presumably he came into that universe wearing the green
Golin suit because moments before his death, he was fighting Spiderman. Right.
For getting impeded on his glider.
So he came out and he like had to change his clothes and he found the most
green Golan ass clothes he could possibly find,
which is like a big billowy purple scarf and like a green
chore coat. Uh, GTA, appreciate that. I do wonder though.
So like the feast center, right? That's a miles Morales thing.
Yes. Like a.
Miles Morales comics thing, right?
It is. Yes.
Uh, also that was in the Spider-Man video game.
Correct?
Jay Jonah Jameson was cast into a fringe
podcaster weirdo and the video game, which one did fringe?
JJ J first.
I wanna say it was far from home.
Okay.
Uh, well, no, I, I want,
so that's the first movie appearance of friends. JJ,
JJ mm-hmm so that was 2019.
And then Spider-Man PS4.
Spiderman. PS4 was like 2016 or 2018.
Uh Spider-Man PS4 was
2018.
So technically the video game did it first by a year,
but we don't know when the scripts were written.
We also don't know if that was a thing in the comic books at any point.
So what was to say, you got their inspiration from where.
Right. And, and honestly, I mean, it doesn't matter.
It's all the same property really? Like, I mean,
does this reinforcing each other at that point? No, one's stealing from anyone.
I'm just saying there's a feast center. So where's Mr. Negative.
Uh, he's busy running feast.
Oh. And then he'll be do he'll do Mr. Negative stuff later.
Yeah.
I mean I'm here for it.
Aren't we all.
We're all here for Mr. Negative slash Martin Lee.
Martin Lee. You got it right.
There we go. Nailed.
It. Nailed it. Oh,
well in default I could talk forever about just,
I don't know all of these. I could talk about the acting forever.
I, I think there was a, there's a specific moment where,
and, and they touch on this a couple times. Uh,
so maybe the more interesting thing that I wanna talk about first is the
villains were obviously populated into this universe at the time
of their death.
If the spell broke and they brought in people who knew about Spider-Man
I think people.
Well, people who knew Peter Parker is Spider-Man.
Yes.
And the only people who knew that in those movies were the villains because they
had unasked him in one way or another.
I wanna know why Mary Jane wasn't brought in from the Toby McGuire verse.
Now my thinking is, uh, she was,
and they just didn't like, I don't know.
Does the cell phone service work the same?
Maybe they just didn't get her because they,
they were specifically looking for Peter Parker when they cast that spell.
Maybe I, I don't know. Maybe only bring maybe they only brought in dudes.
Maybe, uh, that's a shame,
but I know that when they did bring in both Toby McGuire
and Andrew Garfield, they were age diversions of their Spiderman.
That is correct because they weren't pulled from right before when
they died. Cuz they didn't die.
Ah, interesting. So they, I mean it's magic. So who cares? Right.
But so, so what I think it is, it's like, yeah,
the magic pulled the most recent copy. It could not copy I guess,
but pulled them from their most recent moments in the timeline and they
all, all of the villains were dead,
but they had Mo a most recent version of themselves that were pulled in.
And then the two Spiderman who had continued to live on an age were pulled in
cuz they had a more recent copy.
What, what if it, what if it pulled in the genuine,
most recent version of people who knew and just a skeleton came out of
a portal.
Just a corpse, just a.
Just a corpse of norm porn.
Yeah. It's it's still pierced by the glider. They couldn't remove it.
So they just buried him. Yeah.
With the glider attach, the GLI is still and it.
When I cleaned your father's wound, I left the glider in there.
.
I didn't know how to get it out.
No, there was no,
there were no YouTube tutorials for me to look up
for glider removal.
I loved your father Harry.
So I'm sorry about the glider thing.
We had an intimate relationship. He wasn't ready to tell you.
I've seen things in this house.
I've never spoken of like your father naked. Anyway.
I love you too.
Surprisingly big penis.
.
Everyone said it, but I didn't believe it. I hadn't seen auntie Christ.
Everyone on the set was confused and by the set, I mean everyone in the house,
which was just me.
Why struggling.
To talk?
Am I talking about will de fo or Norman Osborne?
Am I your Butler or an actor?
this is your.
James Frank.
This is what will drive you to become the ho.
I guess I need to rewatch that scene with the Butler in.
It. yeah, it's really long and weird.
You need to watch the more fun edition to, uh, to get the additional scenes.
Oh man. The more fun edition was great, but it's not really worth talking about.
What those 11 extra minutes aren't worth 11 extra.
Minutes a cast.
Uh, I mean, so there were a lot more bits with Hannibal bears, JB,
JB, smooth and Martin star, which were phenomenal. Uh,
there was a whole telecast in there by, by the students about,
uh, Spiderman, going to their school with multiple interviews of those, those,
those people. I just named along with like actual, you know, friends of,
of Peter Parker. That was pretty fun. Uh,
there was one more scene with Matt Murdoch and happy Hogan, uh, in front of a,
a Des a deposition about the stolen stark tech, uh,
where happy ho Hogan gets an alert on his phone,
where he watches all the villains, enter his, his,
his apartment while in front of like a deposition. And that Murdoch was like,
stop sweating. He's like, how do you do that?
That sounds like more fun. It.
It brought in more humor.
Eventually the extra scenes ended because the,
the need for humor I guess,
had been met and now it was time for deep sadness.
I, I gotta say we, we glossed over this,
but you wanna talk about the CRA people, you know, it's crazy, right?
That this Sony slash Marvel movie brings in all these other Sony property
things, including eventually venom.
Like yeah.
Whatever. That's crazy, right? Yeah. It was really fucking crazy.
Matt fucking Murdoch is crazy.
Yes. Matt Murdoch played by Charlie Cox Fromm.
The Netflix Marvel series reprising his role for the first time.
And in a way that when I first saw him in theaters,
I literally like out loud in an Alamo draft house just went, oh shit.
I I've heard people.
Charlie Cox himself said that he saw it and no one made a
sound. I can tell you Mr.
Charlie Cox that in my Alamo draft house,
everyone audibly gasped.
Yes. Um, so yeah, come on our show, Mr.
Charlie Cox, and we will gasp, we will recreate that moment, uh,
for you cuz I'm saddened by that news. I, it was a phenomenal moment.
Yeah. We, we will gasp for you. And also to be clear,
we will only talk about your character on boardwalk empire.
I don't sure I will be lost the entire conversation.
Don't worry. Just watch the first three seasons of boardwalk empire.
You'll be fine.
Oh, okay. Yeah. I'll just go ahead and do that real quick.
Uh, but yeah, that was the big reveal to me was cuz you know, you see your Toby,
McGuires your Andrew Garf and the theater was like, Ooh,
but Matt Murdoch is what really did it for my theater.
Oh yeah. Matt Murdoch was. I mean,
honestly that was a really cool moment cuz it's like, oh shit.
These movies are like connected to stuff.
Also. I saw some people whining about the I'm a really good lawyer line.
I think that line's hilarious. That's.
A, that's a phenomenal line.
yeah. I, I think it's really good. I think it's really funny.
And people complaining about it are babies.
Oh man.
These are the same people who are complaining about she hol twerk and I just
don't need to know you.
I mean, these are the people who are complaining about MJ being, uh,
I'm not gonna say they're complaining because she's not white,
but I'm not gonna say that's not why they're complaining.
Yeah. Moving on. Um.
There's a black Spiderman out there somewhere.
That's a really good line.
Oh it's great. That's.
A phenomenal line.
I really,
I will say they do look at each other for a little too long after that. Nick.
It's a little too cute.
I, I just, I really like, you know, his,
his logic and his reasoning was like you from Queens,
you do a lot of good for a lot of people. Mostly poor people.
I just thought you were black. and then Andrew, Gar just goes, oh man,
I'm sorry.
yeah. It's that's really funny this.
So genuine. He's just like , he's bummed out. What.
What I love about that is electros reply is like, no it's okay.
Like you should, you should be apologizing, but it is okay. Right.
Cause I'm sure there's a black Spiderman out there somewhere.
I really thought Andrew Garfield when it was doing that,
like slow nod when they were looking at each other a little bit too long for it
to sink in was just gonna mouth miles, morale.
Morales. Is that who you're talking about? I've
Miles's another Spiderman.
I've seen things in this house.
I've never spoken of another Spiderman.
Maybe you wanna kill him. Well, he's black. Don't do it.
they'll call you a hate crime.
I hope you don't do a lot of stuff in the next few years that makes people
realize you're kind of a.
Creeps tugs, collar.
Tugs collar, James Franco. We've.
Been, I think we've been avoiding it enough.
I feel like we need to talk about the three Spiderman.
have we not been talking about the three Spiderman?
I think the greatest moments. Okay. So I, this is what I.
What I really three Spiderman as a unit. Absolutely.
Yeah. What I really want to talk about. Uh, and, and I'm when I,
when I talk about this, I'm talking to other executive producers,
other people making contact content out there,
I'm speaking directly to you people.
This movie is how you do fan service.
It is not gratuitous. It is not flagrant.
It is not for the sake of doing it.
They built a story around bringing these three Spider-Man
together and they make it a, a culminating moment for one of them.
And then they redeem the other two through action scenes that are, are,
are just phenomenal.
Fan service needs to have a purpose. It's not just, well,
let's bring in all these things you recognize. So it dopamine spikes.
No let's wrap up shit. We couldn't wrap up. Cuz we ran out of time.
Let's give more story,
more life to established characters that were bringing into this, to this story.
Let's give everyone it's the, the whole movies about second chances.
Yeah. I mean, there, there's an old adage that whenever you write a character,
you owe them something because you created them. Uh, and I think in,
in writing this movie and putting these characters in it,
the writers did realize they owed something to these characters for pulling them
in. They could have just shown up and set a bunch of one liners,
which don't get me wrong. This movie is full of self-referential one liners.
I'm a bit of a scientist, myself, et cetera.
But like the fact that these characters got pulled in
and got to resolve serious parts about their
characters before being sent back to their respective universes chef kiss for
a job.
Phenomenal. It, it wasn't just like, yeah,
there were self we would do. There were self,
there were the things you said, self refer.
Self-referential.
One liners. There were those.
But they were in con they were standing in contrast to character
development. And, and honestly the wrapping up of,
of character arcs that were left dangling by poor decision making.
Um, mostly for Andrew Garfield's part.
. Yeah, mostly for Andrew Garfield, never getting a,
a third movie due to, um,
executive level decisions and like a lack of general public interest.
Well, since this is one of the,
the most transient lines that ex ascends the page and ascends the
screen is when Toby McGuire Spiderman tells Andrew Garfield
Spiderman, stop with the, like, what is this lane talk? You're amazing.
That serves. So because the Andrew Garfield Spiderman, for some reason,
granted, I never saw these films. I've never seen amazing Spider-Man one or two.
So I, I, I'm not gonna weigh in,
but like apparently he was just torn apart online for his performance that
I, I think it really affected him afterward a and so having
the original,
Spider-Man tell you as the actor portraying the, the,
the second Spider-Man that you're amazing.
Like it it's like we're watching therapy. We're we're we're yeah,
this is role play and it, it works and it makes,
it touches my heart because in addition to that, it's just wholesome as fuck.
And we need more wholesome,
like supportive talk between our strong male characters.
I I'm gonna be the first to say it. Men need to be more supportive of men.
I mean, yeah, absolutely.
And everyone loves it when.
You're doing a great job.
Oh, thank you. You, you, in real life, you're so mean to me.
I know, I know. I.
The three Spiderman, every moment is a chef's kiss.
I, I love it. I, I, I totally get what you're saying about the Andrew Garfield.
So I have seen, I watched all of the Spider-Man movies, uh, maybe a year ago,
uh,
after this movie came out and a lot of people had real issues with
Andrew Garfield's portrayal of Peter Parker,
because everyone has a fucking opinion about how Peter Parker
should act and guess what babies he should act. However,
the writers write him.
Yeah, absolutely.
Just in the same way that Steve Ditco or whatever, the, and Stanley or whatever,
whatever the fuck wrote, the first Spiderman,
he acted the way that Steve Ditco and Stanley wanted him to act and additional
writers surprise will have their characters act in different ways.
Yeah. Uh,
the only thing I know about the Andrew Garfield Spiderman was that he was more
Quy, which is like, that's great. That's the character in my purview.
He he's nervous. So he cracks jokes. Like that's, that's part of the character.
That's all I know.
About him.
I think Andrew Garfield Spider-Man was actually one of the more interesting
ones. I think you should give those movies a chance,
because he was like really physical and Quy,
but like kind of cruel and petty in a very juvenile way
that like, clearly isn't supposed to come across as cool. Yeah. Which you,
you rarely get in a Peter Parker. Like usually if you get a quippy,
Peter Parker, it's a quippy like unequivocally, right. Peter Parker.
But this is like a Peter Parker is like quippy, but like kind of mean,
and weird and anxious, like a,
like someone who tells jokes to cut the tension,
but is like not great with people.
Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Also his parents have a mystery about him.
Yeah. That's the worst part of those movies?
I don't know anything about him.
Haven't seen him and they won't come off fucking stars.
So I guess I never will see 'em.
Oh, uh we're. We're big stars, heads, big fans of spar. ATUs blood and sand.
Uh, no, we're not. I, I don't know how we saw those movies.
You might have rented them.
That's probably it. Anyway. I think that an so after I finished this movie,
the first time the, uh, the overwhelming feeling I walked away with was,
oh my God, thank God. I get to see Toby McGuire again,
like the Spider-Man too might be one of my favorite movies of all time.
If not, if not that it's certainly my most re-watched movie of all time,
uh, watched it all the time as a teenager and
watching this movie a second time. I'm like, I think Andrew,
Garfield's actually my favorite Spider-Man in this movie because people largely
have no reverence for him. He's going through a lot.
Andrew Garfield acts his ass off. Oh man.
That scene where he catches Mary Jane and asks if she's okay,
then she asks him if he's okay. .
Phenomenal. Yeah.
Oh, amazing.
Yeah. I, from the very start, his introduction in this movie where,
you know, people are tossing bread at him. .
Mm-hmm.
, it's like, I've got the single thing.
It just doesn't work for bread. I.
Think this is something that the movie does really a really good job threading
the needle of which is so, like,
there's a difference between something being intertextual and meta textual.
And this is the thing we used to talk about a lot, uh,
on the podcast when we were a lot more insufferable and had a lot more free
time.
But like intertextuality is you are talking about
texts, right? Like you're talking about things that are,
intertext like you're referring to other characters and other texts.
And usually the MCU is pretty solidly. Intertextual correct.
It is to say it is talking about the lines on the page and subsequent lines.
Right? At no point,
are we talking about an outside medium or an outside world? Uh,
cuz it doesn't exist. All that exists is what's on the page. Intertextual.
And,
and I think maybe I threw around the word meta textual too much in talking about
the MCU before, but Spider-Man no way.
Home is certainly a meta textual movie because to be meta textual,
you must be making a critique of your fiction,
not of your world or of your text,
but the existence of your fiction and other fictions.
So by having Andrew Garfield inhabit a
character who acts and is perceived in such a way that communicates
flawlessly to the audience,
how we know culture felt about those movies,
that's meta textual.
Right? Exactly. Yeah. Because then it's about the,
the reception of the character playing within the world
of that character.
And that character is getting to sort of embody a response to that,
that response to it.
So it's hard to talk about without becoming like a weird loop that's when you
know it's meta.
Yeah. You, you know,
it's meta when you are not necessarily just seeing a character,
but you're seeing a character and an idea.
exactly.
Being very, being very well communicated to you in that,
like this is a character I'm watching the text,
but the text also within it holds the reality of those
movies. Right. Which is really smart.
And it's also true for Toby McGuire, right?
Like he's a meta textual representation of Spider-Man slash Peter Parker
because he is revered kind of quiet.
Everyone immediately respects him upon seeing him because we all know those
movies were good and a huge deal and everyone remembers them.
Yeah. And he was the originator of the role.
Like he is the original Spiderman for these live
action movies. And so like, he's done his, he's done the work.
He's earned the respect. We don't need him to earn our respect anymore.
In this movie, we just, you know, like, he's here, like, wow, he's gonna,
he's like, what is he gonna do?
And what he does is impart the, you know,
the darkest parts of Spider-Man and relates that this is what it
means to be a hero to this young, bright kid who we've seen.
We just saw go through the hardest day of his life.
But before that we've seen him go through some pretty hard days,
but it was all sort of lighthearted, superhero fun.
Yeah. I mean, we, we had to see in this movie,
the character of Peter Parker as played by Tom Holland totally destroyed
in, in a lot of different ways. In many ways,
this movie is deconstructing. Oh no,
I don't want to go down this rabbit hole. .
It is though. It's deconstructing.
Deconstructing the idea idea of.
Spiderman.
Spiderman. That's what this movie is.
It absolutely is. And,
and to the point where the culmination of the action is Spiderman,
a beaten bloodied,
Spider-Man doing the most brutal moves we've seen him do before.
Who, who punches with full force and dense, the goddamn bronze,
you know, captain America, shield of Liberty or whatever.
Like we've seen him use more force than we've ever seen him use before.
Pick up the glider to recreate fate
and kill the green Golan with his own glider.
That is a deconstructed. That is a completely, that is not Spiderman.
That is we're.
That is someone else.
We're demolishing and deconstructing the character of Spiderman over time.
Because the Spiderman we originally get when this movie starts is totally
kitted out, like filled to the brim with ideals.
And then by the end of the movie, we, you,
the audience is made to ask what is Spiderman without ideals?
What is Spiderman without a suit was Spiderman without Peter Parker.
Eventually we're made to ask, what is this character?
If no one, if everything we know about this character is stripped away.
What's.
What is Spiderman?
I mean,
and what the great thing this movie does is while it's stripping away Spiderman
to his, his deepest, most vulnerable nerve,
it it's getting him the tools to climb out.
Like it gives him finally on screen
the line with great power comes great responsibility.
And through that,
that is the avenue out that the other Spiderman can use to pull him out of this,
the, the deepest pit he's ever been in. So it it's funny how, like,
while he's being deconstructed and stripped away,
he's been giving the tool to rebuild himself and finally make
that, that the hugest sacrifice, I guess,
anyone could make without actually dying,
being forgotten by existence.
I mean, it does effectively do what every successful,
what most successful interpretations of Spider-Man do,
which is with the delivery of the line with great power comes great
responsibility. It strips everything else away. It's like,
you are who you are and what are you going to do with it? And at the end,
when he is in a shitty apartment in New York city classic
Spiderman.
Oh yeah. RINs do on the first too.
Great line taking, taking the G E D on the citizen app. Uh,
the,
the answer that we get is what is Spider-Man without Peter Parker Spider-Man as
an ideal is being responsible for others
because you have to be.
Yeah. Yeah.
I just want to add, uh, a really great moment. Um,
the fact that cuz everyone likes,
I mean the one that is most obvious or was most obvious to me was of course,
Andrew Garfield getting to save MJ and,
and redeeming himself for the horrible thing that happened that Gwen, Stacy,
but Toby McGuire Spiderman gets to prevent green gobbling from being stabbed by
his own glider. Yes. And then that way he gets to re undo a failure
for better or worse, a failure of,
of preventing green Goblin's death and his original timeline.
While also wordlessly just staring into the soul of Tom Holland to
be like, what the fuck are you doing?
yeah. I, uh,
most intense Toby McGuire face I've ever.
Seen. I'm sorry if, if I was on the receiving end of that glare,
I think I would just break down in tears right there.
I don't know if I would have the wherewithal to grab the, the,
the cure being thrown at me.
I think I would just break down and cry right there.
Cuz it's like that's Spiderman man. Disappointed in.
Me. Yeah.
Spiderman being disappointed in me that that hurts. That cuts deep.
Yeah. It it's a great look too, cuz it communicates so much.
It communicates like what have we been doing all this for?
Why did we share our trauma and our losses with you and tell you how we became
so rageful for you to do this.
Right? It's like, ah, it's a look that conveys,
like we talked about this I'm disappointed. And while also being like, come on,
man, please. Like, and, and the, the,
I mean the crazy thing is like that's too fully powered Spiderman.
I, I don't know, like he's, I don't,
there's a lot of emotion there, which is rare.
I think for superhero movies where it's usually about one big last fight or
whatever.
Yeah. I mean,
one thing that I will say about all of these Spider-Man home
movies is that they do for the most part
reject this kind of, they,
they reject this arc that all of the Marvel movies seem to have
where they try to create like an unambiguous
obstacle.
That must be solved because all of them are complicated.
Like mysterious, complicated, cuz he is pitiable in a lot of ways. Uh,
vulture is obviously complicated. Uh,
so I think these movies do carry more emotional weight
on average than most Marvel movies. This one, especially.
Yeah.
Cause you don't want to kill green Golan. Look at him, look.
At him. He looks pathetic. I mean he looks.
Evil weight. He stabbed me. Oh.
Yeah.
Perfect. That, that happens by the way.
I did read originally. Uh,
well they filmed two versions apparently of that stabbing scene and
apparently in one of them, Toby McGuire Spiderman dies.
Oh boy.
I think that would've been a bad move. So I'm glad they went with uh,
stabbed in great pain pleads for the love of God, get him a doctor. .
I, that would've felt cheap to me.
That's too movie. And yeah, the fact that they went with a version that,
that resists that I feel like elevates it somewhat because you don't drag.
I mean, you're not gonna drag in the AR it's like bring it in.
Like I don't bring it in. Uh,
Michael Keaton is Batman just to kill him. Like it doesn't make any.
Sense. Yeah. It feels like a waste because like to see that character die,
I'm sure would have an emotional punch, but you're not gonna be like, ah, no,
I'm not gonna see the new Toby McGuire Spiderman movie. Cuz he's that's like,
of course you weren't going to this for 20 years.
No, he's not coming back. He came back for this and this was it.
This was a once in a lifetime event. You witnessed it. You were lucky.
Yeah.
It's it's like going to a movie and then they bring a character like this is
Colombo and then they shoot him in the head. They're like no Colombo.
They,
they go through the trouble of naming a character just and then in, oh,
well I mean folks go see bullet train.
Oh no. But, but it's like if, if,
if there is a movie and they were like,
this is Fox molder and Dana Scully from the exfil.
Huh? And then they just like Gart them death.
Like you didn't think you were gonna see him again. So it's not,
it doesn't really have a lot of emotional weight that they died. This.
Is the weirdest James Bond movie ever. .
They just keep marching characters into a room to kill them. This is so weird.
This is.
This is, this is Foghorn leg horn. .
I was just like, why is bones here? I'm worried about bones.
Why is bones from the show bones here?
oh, okay. Okay. If,
if a movie does like a fan service thing in that way,
I think it also wins because then it's just like, fuck you. Fuck your nostalgia.
I wanna make something like space jam,
but for killing off beloved pop culture figures.
Yeah. Oh well yeah. Fictional pop culture figures.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
This is Nikki Minaj. Wait. No,
that's a real person.
That would be, that would be fascinating. I think,
I think Megan, the stallion is in she Hulk now or something.
That's great. Yeah. She, she.
What if Megan, the stallion just got like crushed with a bus.
I mean like I love Megan the stallion.
I feel like if, yeah. I feel like if I was famous enough to be like,
we want you for one episode and a thing, I'd be like, can you kill me off?
I like, yeah, yes, I'll be in it. But also can I die? Like .
I just thought that one episode of, uh,
game of Thrones where was really weird when they're like, this is my new night,
sir, flee of house red, hot chili peppers.
And they just get shot in the face with an arrow.
Honestly. So they, yeah, honestly,
if the Cammy of ed sheer and ended with him getting stabbed,
I wouldn't have complained.
It's really how they should have done it. Yeah. They should have done it.
Like the two people from always sunny who were just guards on a boat who you
would never even saw their faces, but they get murdered.
Yep. That's a fun, that's a fun story. Cuz they traded episodes basically.
Oh did they?
So the, the, the D and D uh,
the show runners of game of Thrones got oh bad. Got to direct. One episode of,
uh, it's always sunny and they got cameos in one episode of game of throne.
Oh, that's fun. Yeah.
It was, uh, flowers for Charlie episodes actually on ironically,
a really good episode.
Uh, flowers for Charlie is an amazing episode.
That was directed by D and D of game of Thrones fame.
Wow. Maybe they should have brought that to the dares.
They should have brought that to the dinner. .
That might be my new ring tone.
maybe they should have brought that to the DS.
Anyway. House of dragons is fine. House.
Of dragon. I haven't watched it. I haven't watched it. It's fine.
Do I have spider some last thoughts about this Spiderman movie?
I think I've said what I came here to say.
I there's so much more that this movie has to offer that.
I don't think we can put into words.
Yeah. Agreed. I, I mean, there's only so much,
there's only so much time for a podcast,
but this movie is about the last 20 years of our lives.
Absolutely. Like, I mean, just going, I mean,
for me it was just the Toby McGuire of it all. Like those movies,
they would come on FX all the time.
I would watch 'em every time they came on with commercials,
they would take hours. But I,
I don't know that they were like my childhood afternoons, those movies.
I, I don't know if I ever saw one in theaters. Um,
I might have seen spy three in, in,
in theaters and then walked out confused. Um,
but I just,
I think they did just a really great job of
balancing the, the vibes of the MCU,
the vibes of the home trilogy, and then paying homage to the, you know,
standing on the, the shoulders of giants that came before, just doing everything
with the utmost respect and the utmost skill.
Like everyone involved brought their a game,
even Wong who's only in one,
one scene is great. And the fight like the NNC, the,
the most MCU moment is the spy versus stranger things fight.
Um, Dr. Strange fight and like, even that is done really well.
And we get to see the, for the second time in the MCU,
we get to see the fucking mirror dimension.
I will always mark out hard for the mirror dimension.
I think the mirror dimension is cool as hell.
I thought that was gonna be a way bigger thing that it was, you know,
but it's only used in fights with street level heroes.
yeah. Turns out really expensive apparently.
Okay. I mean, it looks great. It.
Looks phenomenal.
I think we should maybe do a,
a little deep dive in these after credit sequences. First of all, Tom Hardy,
who, who cares.
Okay. So, okay. I wanna do I do what I do. I do want to talk about this.
When you, when you saw it in theaters, did you stay for the, all of the credits?
Yeah. I mean, it's a Marvel movie I have to.
Okay. Do you remember what they did? The move they pulled?
Uh, you mean specifically at the theater? Yeah.
At the theater.
Yeah. They pulled lights.
Pulled lights.
The lights came up for us before the after credit scene.
Oh, that sucks. I'm sorry. Um, so yeah, there's the Tom Hardy one,
which is the mid credit scene, but then at the very end,
they just played a trailer for Dr. Strange in the multiverse madness.
Listen, they're like, we gotta pay respects to Sam Ramee. We gotta,
we gotta give the Ram dog something.
I guess I was pissed off.
Yeah. It, I don't think you should end something with it.
I feel like NM C movie has done that once before, but I can't totally remember.
Okay. Uh,
most of madness was 40 minutes of a great Sam Ramee movie and then the rest
like pretty, pretty heavyweight MCU stuff. But I liked it.
I really, I, I, I really enjoyed that movie. You know what the.
Uh, the ending was great.
You know, what, the more fun version did,
which I thought was a really great move that should have been in the original
version. Mm-hmm.
.
The final after credit scene,
after all the credits role is a final sendoff by, uh, Betty,
I forget her name, but the student reporter, whose news reports,
you've watched throughout these,
this whole trilogy doing a recap of their final, uh, uh,
of like we've done it. You know, congratulations. We're all graduating.
Let's take a look back on our, our years.
And it's a series of photos with Peter Parker,
either off to the side or something is in front of his face.
Like genius. Very funny.
So you wouldn't remember him.
And I think that just puts the end cap cuz it makes it real that's
that's another thing these,
this home trilogy has done for the NCU is it may,
it makes a lot of this cosmic shit real like the second
one, um,
bar from home where they have to deal with the implications of people returning
after the blip. And now on this final,
this final scene, the final scene of this trilogy,
dealing with the realities of an erased Peter Parker. Like that's,
what's good about it gives us the everyday shit that we need to make the,
the cosmic shit make sense.
I mean, that's why street level heroes are so important. Yeah. Uh, you,
you have to see what this would actually look like to a human being,
which you know, doctor strange is great and all,
but this is the only movie that made the doctor strange stuff feel like actually
impactful. Yeah. And not like largely theoretical or contrived.
I mean, yeah. I mean, it's the same thing with Eternals.
Like there's the body of a fucking God and the Indian ocean.
And no one has talked about it yet. I mean,
shouldn't that be on a news report somewhere?
Yeah. I mean, the Eternals is just like,
if you're dealing with something that's like so old and so powerful,
it just kind of becomes whatever. Yeah. Like it,
it's not E it's not easy to properly conceptualize that,
but a kid doing a flip and shooting a web injected
directly into my veins.
Hell yeah. Spider-Man forever.
I do hope we get more spy stuff. I have no idea. I have not looked in. I,
I, a part of me has hated the fact that I know so much about like the Marvel and
the Sony deals.
So I've stopped looking into insider information and I've,
I'm just waiting for the trailers to drop so I can ignore them until I see the
movie.
I'm just really excited for this, uh, this new Spider-Man movie.
They've been teasing, you know, Andrew Tate.
Spider-Man uh,
apparently that's a weird misogynistic MMA fighter.
I,
the only thing I know about him is apparently he's been banned from every social
platform and existence.
Good. All British people should be .
Is wait. So is Andrew Tate? British is,
is the joke that they're two British Andrews. What's happening?
Wait, does Andrew Garfield also British.
Andrew Garfield's British as fuck.
Tom Holland. British.
All Spidermans are British Tobin. McGuire has been hire hiding it for years.
yeah, he's doing a really good job.
Yeah. To, to Toby. Not Toby. Andrew Garfield is British. I don't,
I don't know if you didn't know that.
I had, I truly had no idea that one. That one does surprise me. Oh.
He is British.
Wow. I mean, Tom Holland looks a little British.
Yeah. It's in his ears.
I mean, he looks like someone who'd be like, oh me, we suit
you know?
Oh me, we suit.
But Andrew Garfield looks like, he'd be like, ah, pizza.
Well, he had to learn a Brooklyn accent or I guess a queen accent.
Yeah. But he has the look of like, he would say pizza, you know.
I guess British people don't say pizza anymore.
Then Toby McGuire looks like, he'd be likeer hello?
Uh, Toby McGuire looks like he goes Gatsby.
.
You can't live in the past.
You're not wrong. You are not wrong. Uh.
I have more thoughts, but they can't,
they're not at articulating. I, I think honestly at this point,
nothing.
I,
I think at this point we might have to call it and then everyone forgets about
us.
This is it. Yeah. So I, I said,
if we didn't nail this episode to a wizard,
please make everyone forget about zero credits. And he's folks,
this is the big surprise.
The wizard's been standing behind us and he's just shaking his head. No.
Yeah. He he's very disapproving. We were gonna nail this episode to a wizard.
But since we didn't, since we weren't able to nail the episode to him,
he is going to send us not back in time. We're staying here,
but everyone's going to forget about.
Us. Yeah. You're gonna remember zero credits is a weird loophole.
You're gonna remember zero credits, but you won't remember Henry or John.
Yeah. And for some reason your memories will change to it being a good podcast.
So we won.
Yeah. We finally had a good podcast. Everyone's like, man,
I feel like there was this really good podcast called zero credits.
I can't remember anything about, but don't you worry, dear listeners,
cuz I'm gonna walk into your donut slash coffee shops.
And I'm gonna say you don't remember me, but my name's John last name, redacted.
And I am from a podcast,
zero credits and I defeated the lizard and you love me.
I . My name is Peter Parker.
You, you don't remember, but I'm Spiderman.
I defeated the lizard and you love me.
that's really all he needs to. He didn't even do that.
Uh, so one, one last detail that I think was really good.
Uh, he tracks down the lady on the highway gives that speech and she goes,
he didn't rehearse that. Did you? Peter? And he goes, no. What is he doing?
When he walks up to the coffee shop at.
The end's rehearsing, the speech.
He's rehearsing the speech.
Wow, this movie's perfect.
It's a, it's a it's boom mic drop. Uh,
and then web webs foot flat.
What's the what's flip web flip to uh, grab the mic back up.
It's a real flip flip boom.
Andrew Garfield. Defeater of the lizard.
Andrew Garfield come onto the podcast. We'll talk about your time.
Defeating the lizard. Uh, we hope you.
Please don't hold against me. What I said about British people.
I didn't realize that you were British.
I just want to confirm for my own sake. Andrew Garfield,
middle name, Mormon show.
Oh, you were confused. He's not British he's Mormon show.
Oh,
this is confusing.
Andrew Garfield.
Andrew Russell Russell Garfield was born in Los Angeles,
California to a British mother and American father.
When he was three, he moved to the UK with his parents and older brother.
He is of English and Polish Jewish heritage. This dude's a dual citizen.
Yeah. I mean, if you're three and you move to Surry,
you're probably gonna sound pretty British.
And basically probably yeah. He's British. He's British.
Yeah. He's British. He's.
British. He's British. All right. We'll talk about your Britishness, Mr.
Garfield. Come on. We'll talk. It's won't be a Monday. We'll talk about lasagna.
Hey, he served those a thousand times before.
I'm sure he has. And we'll talk about Andrew Cuomo.
The New York mayor.
Yeah. Cuz his first name's Andrew.
Stop linking all the Andrews together.
no Andrew. No way home.
Everyone who's ever been an Andrew is coming through the, the, the SORs,
the ruins of Carnac or whatever it was called.
We got Cuomo. We got Tate. We got Garfield. We got the hurricane .
Those are all the Andrews.
This,
the camera pants over to hurricane force wins. And it's like,
all right, calm down, hurricane Andrew. We got, we got, we got stuff to do.
you're Andrew for.
. Oh my God. All right. Um,
I really enjoy this movie. Uh,
we usually do a rating system at the end of supplement or readings that ranges
from a weird scale. I can't remember,
but there's also an inverse to that scale that we never use,
except for in the case of hurricane heist, I believe.
Yeah. Like it love it. Gotta have it dislike it,
LOA. It gotta have less of it.
It's it's gotta have more of it.
Like it love it. Gotta have more of it.
Yeah. So in this case, uh,
my GU I'm gonna say gotta have more of it, but what I mean is I, I,
my message to people who make movies, this is how you do fan service,
tie it directly to characters, make everything matter.
John had a really good point. When you write a character,
you owe that character something,
you can't put anyone in a movie without giving them something to do or
a motivation or, or just a complete story arc.
So that's what I gotta ahead. More of, not necessarily more of this movie,
but more of the,
the skill and the talent and the time and the passion that went into making this
movie translated into other movies.
So that all movies eventually one day are just as good as this one.
I mean, I, I agree. I gotta have more of it. I mean,
I'd love to see more Spider-Man but we're really what I wanna,
what I gotta have more of is movies that are superhero
movies that aren't like thankless gr to consume,
which slowly a lot of these things are starting to feel like this thing really
had heart. I loved it. Give me more of that.
If you're gonna, if you're gonna comment on things,
comment on them with your whole heart and make sure they go somewhere and don't
just make things for the sake of making references to other stuff.
Yeah.
Don't interpret this movie as fan service,
cuz really that's kind of reductive
because what this is is it's not fan service, it's character service,
the service they gave these characters, the new endings that the wrapping up of,
of issues that the fact that a movie only exists in the run time.
It exists with maybe implications going forward.
But this is literally giving movie characters a second chance to grow and change
and become better people. That's phenomenal.
And I would love to see more of that.
I also gotta have more Marisa tome. Don't let this be.
The last time Hollywood pays attention to Marissa tome.
She deserves more.
Yes. Or else they'll be held to may.
Jesus Christ.
And with that, I think it's time to wrap up the episode.
I don't even see, I don't even see your Jesus Christ on the wave form.
I think it was literally sub audible. Uh, but if you want us to hear you,
all you gotta do is reach out in our social media and hear it goes.
If you wanna send us a tweet on twitter.com, please send us a tweet to
CPC with that's right. They knows what that stands for.
That's right. And if you wanna send us an email,
just send us an email to E email@zerocredits.net. Uh,
one of us will be there to respond even though if you can't remember our
names, that's fine. Uh,
we'll also be on any podcast service.
You can find our podcast on, uh, just to name a few good pods,
pod chaser podcast, addicts, Spotify, just a few,
wherever you listen to us,
please leave a rating and review on that service to help more people
find their way home, even though there's no way home.
But the most important thing you can do is,
uh, to just face the problems in your life,
head on and reach out to the people in your life to tell them to listen to our
podcast. That's right. Where do the mouth is? The only way we can survive.
So please tell your therapist, tell your friends,
tell people who you seek advice from, like mentors or gurus or guides.
Zero credits. That's the place where they review Spiderman. No way home.
Eight months later,
we wait until September for no reason.
Other than we were busy at the time. That's right.
We got stuff going on and we got stuff on the way.
It's all coming to a head here on zero credits.
So from everyone here at the studios,
we would like to wish you, uh, happy week.
Uh, uh, goodbye, I guess.
Goodbye. Forever.
Question mark.
No way home.
But they got home eventually.
No way. Oh,
no way home.
No.