WEBVTT NOTE Transcription provided by Deepgram 00:00:02.399 --> 00:00:04.960 Hello and welcome to episode fifty of Not 00:00:04.960 --> 00:00:07.565 Reserving Judgment, a podcast about the latest intrigues, 00:00:07.565 --> 00:00:10.844 triumphs, and outrages in Canadian constitutional law. I'm 00:00:10.844 --> 00:00:13.665 Joshua Hawes, counsel with the Canadian Constitution Foundation. 00:00:16.680 --> 00:00:19.820 I'm Christine Van Gein, the CCF's litigation director. 00:00:19.880 --> 00:00:22.520 And I'm Joanna Barron, executive director of the 00:00:22.520 --> 00:00:23.020 CCF. 00:00:23.805 --> 00:00:26.365 In today's episode, I'm gonna tell you about 00:00:26.365 --> 00:00:29.885 the not guilty finding related to two men 00:00:29.885 --> 00:00:31.730 accused of conspiracy to 00:00:31.730 --> 00:00:31.850 murder 00:00:31.850 --> 00:00:36.270 police in Coutts, Alberta during the Freedom Convoy. 00:00:36.890 --> 00:00:39.795 I'll tell you about an Ontario farmer who's 00:00:39.795 --> 00:00:41.795 being told that he needs to pay up 00:00:41.795 --> 00:00:44.435 to the tune of four hundred thousand dollars 00:00:44.435 --> 00:00:47.000 in archaeology fees if he wants to build 00:00:47.000 --> 00:00:50.059 a house on his property after certain artifacts 00:00:50.199 --> 00:00:50.940 were on Earth. 00:00:51.559 --> 00:00:53.160 And we'll share our Bad Legal Takes to 00:00:53.160 --> 00:00:54.699 the Weave Corps where we take a lighthearted 00:00:54.775 --> 00:00:56.695 look at some legal opinions that didn't quite 00:00:56.695 --> 00:00:59.095 land. But first, I wanna tell you about 00:00:59.095 --> 00:01:02.830 a counter protester who stood up against Hamas 00:01:02.830 --> 00:01:06.190 supporters and got arrested for it, and explain 00:01:06.190 --> 00:01:08.590 why I think that decision by police may 00:01:08.590 --> 00:01:11.785 have violated his rights. So I'm talking about 00:01:11.785 --> 00:01:14.265 Dominic Cardi who is both a former New 00:01:14.265 --> 00:01:17.245 Brunswick NDP leader and a former New Brunswick 00:01:17.385 --> 00:01:22.390 progressive conservative education minister, which is, interesting. He's 00:01:22.390 --> 00:01:24.550 currently interim leader of the Canadian Future Party, 00:01:24.550 --> 00:01:27.414 which is an upstart centrist conservative party related 00:01:27.414 --> 00:01:30.134 to the center ICE movement. And it's not 00:01:30.134 --> 00:01:32.054 actually all that important who Cardi is. What's 00:01:32.054 --> 00:01:34.054 important is what happened to him last Thursday 00:01:34.054 --> 00:01:37.630 in Toronto. As he recounted on ex, Carty 00:01:37.630 --> 00:01:40.430 was visiting Toronto when a bunch of, when 00:01:40.430 --> 00:01:42.110 he heard a bunch of chanting at young 00:01:42.110 --> 00:01:46.135 Dundas sorry, Sankofa Square coming from what what 00:01:46.135 --> 00:01:48.875 he described as a bunch of Hamas enthusiasts, 00:01:48.935 --> 00:01:52.220 and I think that description is warranted. Now 00:01:52.220 --> 00:01:54.780 these protesters were blocking traffic, and they were 00:01:54.780 --> 00:01:57.180 literally trampling on an Israeli flag in the 00:01:57.180 --> 00:02:00.140 middle of the intersection, chanting things like long 00:02:00.140 --> 00:02:02.845 live the resistance, and these are not nice 00:02:02.845 --> 00:02:05.485 people. Carty waded into the crowd. It wasn't 00:02:05.485 --> 00:02:07.165 a huge crowd but he waited and he 00:02:07.165 --> 00:02:09.005 started chanting in the middle of it free 00:02:09.005 --> 00:02:12.490 Palestine from Hamas, free Palestine from Hamas, which 00:02:12.490 --> 00:02:16.010 obviously these people did not like. As he 00:02:16.010 --> 00:02:18.250 puts it, this attracted negative attention, which is 00:02:18.250 --> 00:02:20.405 fine, he says. He He says, quote, in 00:02:20.405 --> 00:02:22.825 democracies, we have our voices and our bodies, 00:02:22.965 --> 00:02:25.925 and all expect both to be protected when 00:02:25.925 --> 00:02:28.870 we exercise our rights. As we live through 00:02:28.870 --> 00:02:31.110 this horrible reboot of the nineteen thirties, we 00:02:31.110 --> 00:02:33.350 have to use our rights to resist the 00:02:33.350 --> 00:02:36.765 authoritarians. Cardiads, I was approached by a Toronto 00:02:36.765 --> 00:02:39.084 police officer. He asked me to leave. I 00:02:39.084 --> 00:02:41.885 declined. He left. I was met with multiple 00:02:41.885 --> 00:02:44.390 threats and a good kick from assorted masked 00:02:44.550 --> 00:02:47.190 weirdos. And then you can see in, a 00:02:47.190 --> 00:02:49.430 video posted by the lawyer and journalist, Karam 00:02:49.430 --> 00:02:52.230 Hassad, that there are various people including at 00:02:52.230 --> 00:02:56.235 least one kefir masked thug physically intimidating Cardi. 00:02:56.615 --> 00:02:58.775 They're yelling at him. One moment makes the 00:02:58.775 --> 00:03:00.695 upside down triangle. I don't know how to 00:03:00.695 --> 00:03:03.780 do it. That's a rectangle. Upside down triangle 00:03:03.840 --> 00:03:05.860 with her fingers. Yeah. You got it, Chrissy. 00:03:06.560 --> 00:03:10.295 I feel kindergarten. Just just she makes this 00:03:10.295 --> 00:03:13.175 upside down triangle symbol, which is obviously a 00:03:13.175 --> 00:03:16.615 reference to the the, the red triangle from 00:03:16.615 --> 00:03:19.840 Hamas's propaganda videos, which shows who's their next 00:03:19.840 --> 00:03:20.900 Israeli target. 00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:21.620 Disgusting. 00:03:22.480 --> 00:03:25.440 Yeah. And, you know, it's tense. Like, these 00:03:25.440 --> 00:03:28.005 protests with counter protesters always are, but I 00:03:28.005 --> 00:03:30.565 didn't see Cardi do anything that looked violent 00:03:30.565 --> 00:03:33.925 or threatening. And, you never know, but you 00:03:33.925 --> 00:03:36.590 can't see it on the video. Anyway, police 00:03:36.590 --> 00:03:39.630 returned and arrested him for disturbing the peace. 00:03:39.630 --> 00:03:41.250 He says he was staying at the police 00:03:41.470 --> 00:03:43.845 station locked up where he took a nap, 00:03:43.925 --> 00:03:45.605 and he was released after a couple of 00:03:45.605 --> 00:03:50.085 hours without charges or conditions. So he writes 00:03:50.085 --> 00:03:52.405 on Twitter, no more standing by. It's time 00:03:52.405 --> 00:03:55.690 for standing up. Step up against extremism. Defend 00:03:55.690 --> 00:03:58.650 our open society now. And he says he 00:03:58.650 --> 00:04:00.569 refused to agree with police that he wouldn't 00:04:00.569 --> 00:04:04.254 attend future protests. So I've reached out to 00:04:04.254 --> 00:04:06.415 Cardi to try and discuss the situation because 00:04:06.415 --> 00:04:08.254 I wanna know if there are more facts 00:04:08.254 --> 00:04:11.215 that we're unaware of. Because, you know, based 00:04:11.215 --> 00:04:13.840 on what I saw, it looks like his 00:04:13.840 --> 00:04:19.280 rights were probably violated, by the police. You 00:04:19.280 --> 00:04:20.800 know, I don't think he gave them any 00:04:20.800 --> 00:04:23.385 reason to believe that he was about to 00:04:23.385 --> 00:04:25.385 breach the peace or that he had breached 00:04:25.385 --> 00:04:28.825 the peace. And so this is why I'm 00:04:28.825 --> 00:04:31.680 I'm concerned. And I say this based on 00:04:31.680 --> 00:04:34.560 the law as outlined in the twenty nineteen 00:04:34.560 --> 00:04:36.560 decision in Fleming in Ontario, which is a 00:04:36.560 --> 00:04:40.095 case the CCF intervened in to defend a 00:04:40.095 --> 00:04:45.294 protester, whose rights were also breached. Randy Fleming, 00:04:45.294 --> 00:04:47.530 just to give the the background of the 00:04:47.530 --> 00:04:50.170 story, was a resident of Caledonia, Ontario, which 00:04:50.170 --> 00:04:53.290 is a town where Six Nations protesters were 00:04:53.290 --> 00:04:57.385 terrorizing the local non indigenous townspeople for years 00:04:57.445 --> 00:04:59.945 because of plans to build a housing development 00:05:00.085 --> 00:05:02.725 on land that they claimed they've been promised 00:05:02.725 --> 00:05:05.790 by the crown. And this involved requiring residents 00:05:05.790 --> 00:05:08.430 to show six nations issued passports to get 00:05:08.430 --> 00:05:10.750 to their houses. There's a brutal attack on 00:05:10.750 --> 00:05:12.270 a man at the development with a two 00:05:12.270 --> 00:05:14.485 by four that left him with serious, like, 00:05:14.485 --> 00:05:17.525 brain damage. There was more than one arson 00:05:17.525 --> 00:05:19.125 that at one point a power station was 00:05:19.125 --> 00:05:21.530 burned down, which caused a big blackout. It 00:05:21.530 --> 00:05:23.850 was a really ugly situation. And rather than 00:05:23.850 --> 00:05:27.050 enforce the law, the Ontario government, which was 00:05:27.050 --> 00:05:29.345 Dalton McGinty's government at the time, just purchased 00:05:29.345 --> 00:05:31.585 the site and handed it over to six 00:05:31.585 --> 00:05:35.665 nations to end all of the acrimony. Anyway, 00:05:35.665 --> 00:05:38.320 Fleming was a counterprotester, so he attended this 00:05:38.320 --> 00:05:40.880 rally called a flag rally where local residents 00:05:40.880 --> 00:05:43.380 would just walk along the streets of Caledonia 00:05:43.440 --> 00:05:46.345 in front of the development carrying big Canadian 00:05:46.345 --> 00:05:49.145 flags. And on the day in question, a 00:05:49.145 --> 00:05:51.945 police cruiser, two vans, and paddy wagons all 00:05:51.945 --> 00:05:54.665 sort of aggressively approached Fleming, which caused him 00:05:54.665 --> 00:05:58.669 to, like, walk up toward the, development site. 00:05:59.210 --> 00:06:00.729 And he was carrying his flag, and police 00:06:00.729 --> 00:06:02.569 were yelling at him, like, drop the flag. 00:06:02.569 --> 00:06:04.335 And he refused to drop the flag, so 00:06:04.335 --> 00:06:06.415 they ran up and arrested him. And they 00:06:06.415 --> 00:06:08.355 put him in jail. They injured his arm, 00:06:09.295 --> 00:06:11.855 and he was arrested basically just for protesting 00:06:11.855 --> 00:06:15.480 with the Canadian flag. So the OPP went 00:06:15.480 --> 00:06:17.960 to court and they argued that Fleming's rights 00:06:17.960 --> 00:06:21.075 were not violated because they'd arrested him basically 00:06:21.075 --> 00:06:23.395 for his own protection. They said someone else 00:06:23.395 --> 00:06:24.995 was about to breach the peace because when 00:06:24.995 --> 00:06:26.915 he walked up, there were, you know, eight 00:06:26.915 --> 00:06:29.395 or ten protesters walking towards Fleming, and so 00:06:29.395 --> 00:06:31.720 they had to arrest Fleming in this scenario 00:06:31.780 --> 00:06:34.520 even though there were, you know, several cops 00:06:35.060 --> 00:06:37.220 available to confront the protesters if they need 00:06:37.220 --> 00:06:40.795 to. So, anyway, the Supreme Court in this 00:06:40.795 --> 00:06:43.835 scathing twenty nineteen decision written by justice Suzanne 00:06:43.835 --> 00:06:47.430 Cote, said this is not acceptable police behavior. 00:06:47.430 --> 00:06:49.110 It's a violation of rights. You know, the 00:06:49.110 --> 00:06:51.509 courts do have the power to do what's 00:06:51.509 --> 00:06:55.275 reasonably necessary to carry out their duties, which 00:06:55.275 --> 00:06:57.695 include the duties to prevent crime, to protect 00:06:57.995 --> 00:07:00.475 life and property, and to keep the peace. 00:07:00.475 --> 00:07:02.650 But they don't have the power to arrest 00:07:02.650 --> 00:07:05.290 somebody who hasn't committed an offense, who's not 00:07:05.290 --> 00:07:08.010 about to commit an offense, who hasn't breached 00:07:08.010 --> 00:07:09.690 the peace, and who's not about to breach 00:07:09.690 --> 00:07:12.035 the peace. They they can arrest someone just 00:07:12.035 --> 00:07:14.675 to prevent a breach of the peace by 00:07:14.675 --> 00:07:18.850 someone else against that person. So, anyway, the 00:07:18.850 --> 00:07:20.850 court struggled a bit to define breach of 00:07:20.850 --> 00:07:22.930 the piece and that's understandable because it's kind 00:07:22.930 --> 00:07:26.185 of a weird concept. In one sense, originally 00:07:26.185 --> 00:07:28.185 all of the crimes were breaches of the 00:07:28.185 --> 00:07:30.745 peace, but then we started codifying crimes and 00:07:30.745 --> 00:07:32.605 what we're left with is this more ambiguous 00:07:32.880 --> 00:07:35.040 concept that's not actually a crime, but it's 00:07:35.040 --> 00:07:37.920 still part of the law. And the criminal 00:07:37.920 --> 00:07:39.760 code says about Breach of the Peace that 00:07:39.760 --> 00:07:43.125 an officer is justified in arresting any person 00:07:43.125 --> 00:07:45.125 whom he finds committing a breach of the 00:07:45.125 --> 00:07:47.285 peace or believes unreasonable grounds is about to 00:07:47.285 --> 00:07:49.365 join or renew a breach of the peace. 00:07:49.365 --> 00:07:52.350 But all this means is the cop himself 00:07:52.350 --> 00:07:55.170 or herself is not violating the law when 00:07:55.389 --> 00:07:57.310 he or she arrests somebody for breaching the 00:07:57.310 --> 00:07:59.230 peace. It doesn't say it's actually a crime 00:07:59.230 --> 00:08:01.195 to breach the peace because it isn't a 00:08:01.195 --> 00:08:04.075 crime. And so this creates this weird situation 00:08:04.075 --> 00:08:08.300 where police can arrest people, without, you know, 00:08:08.300 --> 00:08:11.820 charging them with anything. And the court looked 00:08:11.820 --> 00:08:14.060 into various situations to try to find what 00:08:14.060 --> 00:08:16.080 Breach the Peace really is. And they said, 00:08:17.005 --> 00:08:19.325 quote, violence lies at the core and there 00:08:19.325 --> 00:08:21.585 must be a risk of harm and violence. 00:08:22.045 --> 00:08:24.205 They also said danger to the person is 00:08:24.205 --> 00:08:28.389 always involved so it's not about property. And 00:08:28.389 --> 00:08:30.889 they said behavior that quote is merely disruptive, 00:08:31.030 --> 00:08:32.950 annoying, or unruly is not a breach of 00:08:32.950 --> 00:08:36.045 the peace. And if, you know, basically, what 00:08:36.045 --> 00:08:37.725 they're saying is if it looks like somebody's 00:08:37.725 --> 00:08:39.405 about to, you know, punch someone or kick 00:08:39.405 --> 00:08:41.345 someone or start a riot at a protest, 00:08:41.800 --> 00:08:44.540 which are all actually themselves crimes. Police can 00:08:45.079 --> 00:08:47.320 choose to take the sort of intermediate step 00:08:47.320 --> 00:08:49.240 of arresting for breach of the peace or 00:08:49.240 --> 00:08:51.025 anticipate to breach the peace so they can, 00:08:51.025 --> 00:08:53.345 you know, let that person cool off without 00:08:53.345 --> 00:08:56.245 actually charging them with something like assault. And 00:08:56.785 --> 00:08:58.785 that's sort of what how it functions in 00:08:58.785 --> 00:09:01.540 our system these days. So the court also 00:09:01.540 --> 00:09:03.380 made clear though that police, you know, like 00:09:03.380 --> 00:09:05.620 I said, can't arrest somebody just for being 00:09:05.620 --> 00:09:09.055 a provocateur. They say a provocateur whose lawful 00:09:09.055 --> 00:09:11.455 actions or words are feared to be prompting 00:09:11.455 --> 00:09:14.415 others to respond violently such that they may 00:09:14.415 --> 00:09:16.410 become a victim of breach of the peace, 00:09:16.810 --> 00:09:21.470 can't be arrested because that would significantly interfere 00:09:21.529 --> 00:09:25.404 with their liberty interests to arrest them. It's 00:09:25.404 --> 00:09:27.404 also a violation of the right to be 00:09:27.404 --> 00:09:32.125 free from arbitrary detentions, physical liberty is involved, 00:09:32.125 --> 00:09:34.490 security of the person because you're, like, physically 00:09:35.350 --> 00:09:37.670 grabbed might be involved, and of course according 00:09:37.670 --> 00:09:39.750 to the court frame of expression is involved 00:09:39.750 --> 00:09:42.010 because you are allowed to be a provocateur. 00:09:42.150 --> 00:09:43.935 You have a right to speak even if 00:09:43.935 --> 00:09:47.935 it's provocative. So another little wrinkle in this, 00:09:48.095 --> 00:09:51.640 which is, interesting is that the SEC said 00:09:51.640 --> 00:09:54.600 that there may be truly exceptional circumstances where 00:09:54.600 --> 00:09:57.000 police may be allowed to arrest somebody who's 00:09:57.000 --> 00:09:58.680 not about to commit a breach of the 00:09:58.680 --> 00:10:01.435 peace in furtherance of their duty to protect 00:10:01.575 --> 00:10:04.695 life. And they said this would only be 00:10:04.695 --> 00:10:07.709 an exceptional circumstances, for example, in in the 00:10:07.709 --> 00:10:11.550 hypothetical situation where a person's done nothing wrong, 00:10:11.550 --> 00:10:13.550 but an angry mob is about to attack 00:10:13.550 --> 00:10:16.565 them while they're lawfully exercising their freedom of 00:10:16.565 --> 00:10:19.685 speech, and the person refuses to comply with 00:10:19.685 --> 00:10:22.165 a lone police officer who's on the scene. 00:10:22.165 --> 00:10:24.370 So this is not what happened in Fleming. 00:10:24.370 --> 00:10:26.290 There were, you know, at least five cops. 00:10:26.290 --> 00:10:29.170 There were about ten protesters. So the court 00:10:29.170 --> 00:10:31.649 was like, you know, that that's not okay. 00:10:31.649 --> 00:10:34.485 You can't arrest someone in that scenario. And, 00:10:34.885 --> 00:10:36.405 so they didn't have to decide whether that 00:10:36.405 --> 00:10:38.485 power exists, but it might. So long story 00:10:38.485 --> 00:10:40.720 short, if somebody's done nothing wrong that gives 00:10:40.959 --> 00:10:43.459 nothing that gives police reasonable grounds to believe 00:10:43.680 --> 00:10:47.759 they're about to commit violence, then they they 00:10:47.759 --> 00:10:49.279 could arrest them for breach of the peace. 00:10:49.279 --> 00:10:51.455 But, you know, reasonable grounds is not the 00:10:51.455 --> 00:10:53.215 lowest standard. They do have to have some 00:10:53.215 --> 00:10:56.115 level of evidence that goes beyond mere suspicion. 00:10:56.949 --> 00:10:58.790 So for example, you know, if somebody's running 00:10:58.790 --> 00:11:01.269 towards someone else with a pitchfork, police could 00:11:01.269 --> 00:11:03.110 probably arrest them for breach of the peace. 00:11:03.110 --> 00:11:05.995 But if someone's merely exercising his or her 00:11:06.315 --> 00:11:09.835 free speech rights, you know, saying provocative things 00:11:09.835 --> 00:11:11.755 as a counter protester and there are multiple 00:11:11.755 --> 00:11:14.075 cops available to arrest people if things do 00:11:14.075 --> 00:11:16.930 start to go south. The cops have a 00:11:16.930 --> 00:11:19.410 duty to protect that person's speech rights, and 00:11:19.410 --> 00:11:22.565 they absolutely should not be arresting them. And 00:11:22.565 --> 00:11:24.485 if they do, police should not be surprised 00:11:24.485 --> 00:11:27.125 if they face a charter challenge from someone 00:11:27.125 --> 00:11:29.365 like us. And, you know, the CCF would 00:11:29.365 --> 00:11:31.370 be interested in potentially taking on one of 00:11:31.370 --> 00:11:34.650 these cases one day because police do these 00:11:34.650 --> 00:11:37.450 things far too often. So, anyway, I'm trying 00:11:37.450 --> 00:11:38.890 to get a hold of Dominic. If you're 00:11:38.890 --> 00:11:41.965 listening, we should chat. Please give me a 00:11:41.965 --> 00:11:43.965 call. I think that's all I wanna say 00:11:43.965 --> 00:11:46.845 about that. Joanna, what's your reaction? What do 00:11:46.845 --> 00:11:49.105 you think after hearing this story? 00:11:49.470 --> 00:11:51.149 Well, thank you for giving the breakdown of 00:11:51.149 --> 00:11:53.149 Fleming. I think Fleming is a really important 00:11:53.149 --> 00:11:56.449 case. And my reaction to the Carty situation, 00:11:56.510 --> 00:11:58.925 while I agree that it's important sort of 00:11:58.925 --> 00:12:02.525 give operational deference to cops, and obviously a 00:12:02.525 --> 00:12:04.125 term like breach of the peace is sort 00:12:04.125 --> 00:12:07.740 of intentionally somewhat vague and allows a lot 00:12:07.740 --> 00:12:10.860 of operational flexibility. For me, it's just there 00:12:10.860 --> 00:12:12.540 were so many things the cops could have 00:12:12.540 --> 00:12:14.540 done if what they were concerned with doing, 00:12:14.540 --> 00:12:16.565 which is what, you know, giving them the 00:12:16.565 --> 00:12:19.845 best faith interpretation. There's also a less good 00:12:19.845 --> 00:12:22.964 faith interpretation available in this particular situation when 00:12:22.964 --> 00:12:26.040 you have someone like Dominic Carty, who I'm 00:12:26.040 --> 00:12:27.880 sure the cops didn't know but is, like, 00:12:27.880 --> 00:12:30.680 renowned for being very centrist and very sensible. 00:12:30.680 --> 00:12:33.225 And then you have people jumping on the 00:12:33.225 --> 00:12:35.865 flag of an OECD country in the middle 00:12:35.865 --> 00:12:37.704 of downtown Toronto. But all of which is 00:12:37.704 --> 00:12:39.145 to say there's so many things that they 00:12:39.145 --> 00:12:41.485 could have done to deescalate that don't involve 00:12:41.930 --> 00:12:44.010 arresting the guy and making him take a 00:12:44.010 --> 00:12:46.170 nap in a lockup. Like, that is a 00:12:46.170 --> 00:12:48.649 very severe infringement of liberty. They could ask 00:12:48.649 --> 00:12:50.955 to have a certain amount of space. They 00:12:50.955 --> 00:12:52.715 could, you know, keep they could like, the 00:12:52.715 --> 00:12:54.715 cops' job is to kind of put their 00:12:54.715 --> 00:12:58.450 bodies in between two hostile groups. And so 00:12:58.450 --> 00:13:01.190 it just seems to me to be unreasonable 00:13:01.330 --> 00:13:04.665 that they went to this extreme. However, as 00:13:04.745 --> 00:13:06.824 you said, there's a lot that we're not 00:13:06.824 --> 00:13:09.464 aware of. We don't know exactly what went 00:13:09.464 --> 00:13:12.425 down, but we also haven't heard anything at 00:13:12.425 --> 00:13:14.080 this point that suggests that there was a 00:13:14.080 --> 00:13:19.040 need to take Carty into custody. So, and 00:13:19.040 --> 00:13:21.195 it's important to get these things right. These 00:13:21.195 --> 00:13:24.394 things where people are literally losing their s 00:13:24.394 --> 00:13:27.774 on the street right now. It's important that 00:13:27.995 --> 00:13:29.995 Icardi is right that as much as I'm 00:13:29.995 --> 00:13:32.579 not much of a street protester myself, you 00:13:32.660 --> 00:13:34.899 democracy requires that you use your voice and 00:13:34.899 --> 00:13:37.300 your body. And he has every right to 00:13:37.300 --> 00:13:39.935 show up and express his views in what 00:13:39.935 --> 00:13:41.695 did you say it's called? I actually hadn't 00:13:41.695 --> 00:13:43.295 even heard that yet, and I, like, have 00:13:43.295 --> 00:13:44.655 lived in Toronto my whole life. What's it 00:13:44.655 --> 00:13:46.015 called now? Sanofi Square? 00:13:46.015 --> 00:13:49.040 San Sankofa Square. They just renamed Yankofa Square. 00:13:49.040 --> 00:13:49.760 What what's Sankofa? 00:13:50.080 --> 00:13:50.960 About oh. 00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:52.560 I I heard that they were changing it, 00:13:52.560 --> 00:13:54.160 but I didn't hear they landed on what's 00:13:54.160 --> 00:13:54.660 Sankofa? 00:13:55.555 --> 00:13:58.515 Sankofa is I forget what it means. It 00:13:58.515 --> 00:14:02.935 means something about looking back at your history 00:14:02.995 --> 00:14:05.790 and, like, atoning for it. And it's from 00:14:05.790 --> 00:14:12.209 the Akan people, which is, Ghanaian, people who 00:14:12.685 --> 00:14:15.005 themselves were very involved in the slave trade. 00:14:15.005 --> 00:14:18.145 So it's, yeah. It became this whole controversy 00:14:18.205 --> 00:14:21.889 because basically, people were saying we need to 00:14:21.889 --> 00:14:26.149 rename young Dundas Square because Dundas was, anti, 00:14:27.024 --> 00:14:29.985 was pro slavery, and that's not actually true. 00:14:29.985 --> 00:14:33.024 He was anti slavery. And if you know 00:14:33.024 --> 00:14:35.024 anything about the history and review it, he 00:14:35.024 --> 00:14:38.790 was, instrumental in getting rid of slavery sooner 00:14:38.790 --> 00:14:43.005 than it would otherwise have been abolished. So 00:14:43.005 --> 00:14:46.445 the irony that they decided to choose the 00:14:46.445 --> 00:14:49.645 name of, or or a word from a 00:14:49.645 --> 00:14:53.240 language, derived from the people who also participated 00:14:53.240 --> 00:14:55.000 in slavery around the same time is kind 00:14:55.000 --> 00:14:58.040 of, lost on people. But, anyway, we don't 00:14:58.040 --> 00:14:59.595 need to get too deeply to that. 00:14:59.595 --> 00:15:01.755 Anyways, I'm impressed by Cardi and his wife 00:15:01.755 --> 00:15:03.515 when I read about this over the weekend 00:15:03.515 --> 00:15:05.195 or or partner. I'm not sure what it 00:15:05.195 --> 00:15:07.275 is. I I started looking at both of 00:15:07.275 --> 00:15:10.380 their social medias and, they are, like, a 00:15:10.380 --> 00:15:14.560 very, very principled and brave New Brunswick couple. 00:15:15.020 --> 00:15:17.305 His wife has gone to Ukraine. She does 00:15:17.385 --> 00:15:21.964 various international aid stuff. She organized the, like, 00:15:22.024 --> 00:15:25.370 hand holding, encircling the synagogue that was attacked 00:15:25.370 --> 00:15:28.650 in Fredericton in January. So they seem to 00:15:28.650 --> 00:15:31.530 me to be people that we want to 00:15:31.530 --> 00:15:33.850 encourage and not lock up for their bravery. 00:15:33.850 --> 00:15:34.910 What do you think, Christine? 00:15:35.345 --> 00:15:37.365 That's awesome. I wanna meet these people. 00:15:37.425 --> 00:15:37.905 Yeah. And 00:15:37.905 --> 00:15:41.105 also, Joanna, don't forget. You say you don't 00:15:41.105 --> 00:15:43.760 engage in street protests, but I do recall 00:15:43.760 --> 00:15:46.260 being in Ottawa with you when a group 00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:50.640 of Hamas loving protesters were outside a conference 00:15:50.640 --> 00:15:53.585 that we were attending and you did counter 00:15:53.585 --> 00:15:58.145 protests. So you're lucky that you were not 00:15:58.145 --> 00:16:03.000 arrested for your provocation. That is true. Another 00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:04.840 thing I I just think is, like, so 00:16:04.840 --> 00:16:10.060 absurd is that, the notion that's saying free 00:16:10.425 --> 00:16:14.665 free Palestine from Hamas is like should not 00:16:14.665 --> 00:16:18.105 be considered a provocative statement. Like literally we 00:16:18.105 --> 00:16:22.310 should free Palestine from Hamas. It's a terrible 00:16:22.370 --> 00:16:24.690 terrorist organization that's doing a huge amount of 00:16:24.690 --> 00:16:27.705 damage. The idea that that is provocative enough 00:16:27.705 --> 00:16:30.125 that we need to lock this man up 00:16:30.425 --> 00:16:31.825 is completely outrageous. 00:16:31.825 --> 00:16:33.545 Oh my god. Yeah. Like I was just 00:16:33.545 --> 00:16:35.380 reading, maybe we're going on too much of 00:16:35.380 --> 00:16:37.460 a tangent, but I was reading David Remnick 00:16:37.460 --> 00:16:41.060 has an amazing profile of, of Yahya Sinwar 00:16:41.060 --> 00:16:42.740 in the New Yorker this week. And he 00:16:42.740 --> 00:16:45.345 talks about how his his nickname, even among 00:16:45.345 --> 00:16:48.465 Palestinians, was the Butcher of Khanunists because he 00:16:48.465 --> 00:16:50.865 just established himself as just being, like, just 00:16:50.865 --> 00:16:54.080 completely brutal. Like, he heard that there was 00:16:54.080 --> 00:16:57.760 a, barber in Gaza that was like, letting 00:16:57.760 --> 00:17:00.240 his customers look at nudie magazines in the 00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:01.755 back or something. Like he just heard a 00:17:01.755 --> 00:17:04.155 rumor, and he, like, butchered him with an 00:17:04.155 --> 00:17:06.635 ax himself. And, like, these are things that 00:17:06.635 --> 00:17:09.115 are, like, not disputed. Like, these are these 00:17:09.115 --> 00:17:11.010 are not people that are going to liberate 00:17:11.010 --> 00:17:14.690 the Palestinians, guys. These Yeah. So And the 00:17:14.690 --> 00:17:17.410 reason yeah. The reason Sinwar was released from 00:17:17.410 --> 00:17:20.425 prison was because he had only murdered during 00:17:20.425 --> 00:17:23.385 the Gilad Shawi prisoner exchange. He hadn't murdered 00:17:23.385 --> 00:17:25.545 any Israelis. So I was like, well, let 00:17:25.545 --> 00:17:26.925 me see how that turned out. 00:17:27.330 --> 00:17:29.090 Yeah. It's I mean, it's just not a 00:17:29.090 --> 00:17:33.030 provocative statement. It's a completely rational statement. And, 00:17:33.810 --> 00:17:37.325 the fact that it's considered provocative is kind 00:17:37.325 --> 00:17:39.645 of a condemnation of the people who were 00:17:39.645 --> 00:17:43.085 engaging in that protest in whatever that square 00:17:43.085 --> 00:17:45.164 is called. I mean, that their perspective is 00:17:45.164 --> 00:17:49.549 completely warped. Anyway, let's head to my news 00:17:49.549 --> 00:17:53.470 headline. So I'm gonna give an update about 00:17:53.470 --> 00:17:55.554 a criminal law case, which, to be clear, 00:17:55.554 --> 00:17:57.475 we are not involved in, and I add 00:17:57.475 --> 00:18:00.534