Hey everybody, welcome to an episode of The Virtual Couch as well as most
likely The Mind, the Mirror, and me.
I'm your host, Tony Overbay.
I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist.
So let's begin today with a question.
Have you ever found yourself stuck between wanting to change, maybe
even wanting to want to change, and then, , hating every second of it when
the opportunity actually shows up?
Because I think often people really do want something different and when they
have just done something that they're not maybe feeling the greatest about,
they tell themselves it's the last time.
And I really think in that moment, most of us think that it is the last time that
we're doing whatever that behavior is and.
Often just being able to tell ourselves that's the last time
makes us feel good enough that we think, okay, no, this is real.
I'm never gonna do whatever it is again.
I'm gonna make this change.
And then you wake up the next day and that's actually the moment of truth.
What do you do differently if you've acknowledged that
something does need to change?
There are so many things that get in the way of it.
Even if it is the, I'm not even sure how.
Okay, well then the next part of that is just start doing,
trying figure something out.
'cause even the, I don't even know what to do next, is a story that my
brain, if it can hook me to that, then I really don't have to do anything new.
'cause new things are scary and we're gonna talk about today.
Or there's even another side of that where maybe you've told yourself
that, no, I'm absolutely fine with change and, and when it is time to
make that change, then I'll do it.
But how will you know when that time is right?
Oh, I'll know.
You'll tell yourself.
And then all of a sudden you're hit with something pretty big in your life
and now you really have to change and, and maybe you're wishing that you had
started laying the groundwork down for change a little earlier, and then
at that point it can feel terrifying.
So today's episode is all about that tension.
That tension where growth can really occur, why it feels so uncomfortable,
which is pretty normal, but then why?
It is the very thing that helps us grow.
And how do we get through those moments where we just don't
really want to deal with it?
Because that's a normal part of the human experience and I could
not think of a better person to have this conversation with than my
daughter, Mackey McKinley over Bay.
You might know her as at Beauty by Mackey on Instagram and TikTok.
She and I co-host The Mind The Mirror and Me a podcast that has been on a
brief hiatus brief , in the grand scheme of time, as in history of the universe.
Such a brief hiatus.
But in the podcasting world, it's been a little while, but
we are hoping that it is back.
Now, since we last recorded, Mackey has had some pretty major career
shifts, , completely different industry.
I've had spinal surgery.
, My mom, Mackey's grandma passed away.
That's a lot of change right there, but that's also a lot
of opportunity for growth.
So we're gonna talk about that and we're going to use humor because Mackey is,
is probably the person who is the most like me and my family, who kind of uses
humor for most everything because that is the way that we process things best.
So in today's episode, we're gonna dig into what makes change scary, why
our brains crave certainty, , hate, discomfort, fight against the
unknown, and how more often than not, discomfort is the price of growth.
, We'll also talk a little bit about how even practical gifts like luggage
and nose, hair, trimmers, end up teaching us a very valuable lesson.
So before we get started, a quick reminder, if you haven't
already, head over to tony over bay.com, sign up for my newsletter.
It's the best way to stay up to date on new episodes and resources and events.
And then while you're at it, come find me on social media, TikTok at Virtual couch,
Instagram at virtual couch, and reach out through my website if you have questions
or there's something that you would like for me to tackle on a future episode
and make sure you also follow Mackey on Instagram and TikTok at Beauty by
Mackey, and of course subscribe to her podcast, the Mine, the Mirror, and Me.
And last but not least, it is not too late to sign up to Cruise
the Seas with my friend Julie De Jesus, and me in January of 2026.
The link will be in the show notes.
We would love to have you join us.
Okay, let's get to it.
Here is my conversation with Mackey on change.
Yeah.
, Anyway, we should not talk about this.
No, it's not
important.
, I feel too casual.
Can one be too casual?
Mac?
I'm wearing my pajama shirt.
Okay.
So the answer to that is no.
Didn't brush my hair today.
. Do I have to do it?
Me neither.
So anyways,
hey, welcome back to, this is gonna run on every podcast I have
and the one podcast I have,
which is called
The Mind the Mirror in Me.
And it has not had an episode in.
Five years.
It's been a minute.
As the kids, it's been a minute.
They say, I haven't heard that.
I say it still, but I don't think I count as the kids anymore.
Which is scary.
No, you're
moving into that where you'll sound silly saying it.
Yeah.
There.
I notice that a lot do, especially 'cause I work at a school with 18 year olds.
You do?
Okay.
And so they're still like that.
And I feel like I'm a hundred years old.
. , There's some guy I follow on TikTok and he's a teacher and every week
he comes out with the top five words that middle school people are saying.
And it's hilarious.
Like aura farming and everything.
There's some with numbers right now.
Do you know that one?
I know that there are things with numbers and I never know what they are.
Okay.
And I've even tried to look into it.
Have you?
And I cannot figure it out.
Okay.
And I go immediately to why is four?
Afraid of six or 7, 8, 9 or something.
That one.
You know that one.
Four.
Afraid of six.
No, he's not afraid of six.
That's why.
Seven.
Afraid of nine because seven, eight.
No.
Why nine?
Afraid of see world.
Who's afraid of who?
The big, bad wolf.
Okay.
Hi.
M
nine is afraid of seven.
Why six?
Afraid of seven.
Oh yeah.
6, 7, 8, 9.
That, that is a sign of being old.
Add in the little drum thing.
don't have the budget for it, . It's good to have you back.
It's been a a while.
You've had some significant life changes.
I have, but before we get to that, I have you though.
Yeah.
And that's what we're gonna talk about today.
Yeah.
Change and how fun it is and how easy it is and how everybody likes it.
Everybody wants
to do it and it's so great.
Exactly.
Before we begin, I have some questions for you, Mac.
Have you ever been given a gift that you really weren't that excited about, but
you later realized it was something that you were glad that you had received?
Here's the thing.
Full transparency.
Yes.
You asked me this before I did.
And my initial response was,
I've, no,
I've never received a gift.
I said, I cannot remember a single gift that I have received.
then
we got into a slight memory thing and how crazy memory is and whatever.
But I was drawing a blank, but I did come up with something.
, I have to say the joke of when you said that.
Mm-hmm.
We were at home and then as your dad who has been through a lot of
Christmases with you, tiny bit offended.
Rightfully so.
Thank you.
And then I did remember a few things.
Okay.
That's here.
But my answer is on my 18th birthday, my dearest mother started a tradition
with us children where she would get us a nice set of suitcases.
I didn't know this.
Where were you?
She would get us like a nice set of suitcases.
'cause we were moving outta the house and doing whatever.
. I vividly remember opening up my suitcases and being like.
What do you mean?
Yeah, I was a little bit, not disappointed, but a little,
just like I didn't ask for this.
I didn't, yeah.
What do I don't need this?
And then jokes on me because it has now been however many years
later since I was 18 a lot.
And I still use those suitcases frequently and I've used them
everywhere that I've moved.
Everywhere that we've gone.
And they still exist right now and they're in great condition and they've been
actually a very good and practical gift.
. Oh, I wonder if practical is the key to this one.
' cause I, I was trying to think of something that is fun that you got , if
it was fun, maybe you wouldn't think it was a bad thing, but that's a
Exactly.
I think if it's fun you find a way to just make it fun.
Yeah.
But that was it.
They were very practical and I've used them very practically.
Yeah.
Very ever since.
, And your mom said one that was really, it was really nice.
It was
tender.
It was your grandma, my mom, grandma Peggy , who recently passed away,
will, Gave your mom a sewing kit at our wedding . And your mom said, , she
thought it , was a little bit useless at the time and she still has the exact
same kit from 34 years ago and she said she has used it a thousand plus times.
That's a lot of times.
I don't doubt it though.
I know exactly the one she's talking about and where it is.
And it was full of all kinds of,
and I do too because I think now I've since used it.
. To sew up our dog's toys.
That's what I think when they rip them to shreds,
which they do.
There's a whole graveyard of dog toys.
Yeah, I'm behind.
. , I was jotting down some notes and I don't know if anybody ever got me a nose
in ear hair trior for the first time.
Maybe your mom did.
Which maybe was a little passive aggressive.
Now if I think about it at the time, Uhhuh.
, That has been a gift that has given and given and given, and
I've gone through many of them now.
It's like your favorite thing now
kind of is , I like that grooming.
Okay.
And now you make me trim your old man eyebrows,
not trim, pluck, pluck?
Or do you
I do a little bit of both.
Okay.
But do you guys call it that in the industry?
In the business?
Is that a trimming or do you pluck 'em or what do you do with eyebrows?
We just call it brow shaping.
Oh, is the service you would book.
Okay.
And you've been doing it for me every couple of weeks before I go back to
California and I am blown away at how fast they grow as an old man.
Yeah.
They come right back
and they're huge.
Yeah.
And they're wiry
and they're a little curly and a little wiry.
Yeah.
So I appreciate that.
Anytime.
We're talking about change.
Mm-hmm.
You have had some very big changes lately, as
have you
Yeah.
But let's start with yours.
Yours are like career changing things.
' When we last left, things had you started back to esthetician school?
I don't remember, but I know that we talked about my Hashimoto's,
we talked about that shift.
So maybe I was already
in school.
Probably
because it took how long?
Aesthetician school.
Six months.
Six months,
. Probably was at least starting it.
. . Why did you go, why did you change it?
First of all, did you like being a cosmetologist?
I did.
I thought I did.
Yeah.
At the time, I guess I would say.
And did you Maybe until you started to not
I think to some extent, yeah.
. There was definitely a period of time where I loved it.
. And then got diagnosed with a spooky thing and then my whole
life got flipped upside down.
So that was change in itself.
. Is a way to tie that into Yes.
But then that led me to shift
. Careers.
Completely.
And people that are gonna be listening.
It's so funny.
it's not like everybody sits there and remembers every single thing
that has happened on a podcast.
For sure.
Yeah.
Can you do a quick summary , of when you learned about Hashimoto's,
, what you did, how you lost ton of weight, . Give a little update
. So I. Was experiencing a lot of crappy symptoms in like 2023
I think it was at this point.
Yeah.
And I was living alone.
I was in Utah.
I was doing hair, running my own business and I was experiencing
all these terrible symptoms and I was miserable and not doing well.
And then long story short, got diagnosed with an autoimmune disorder called
Hashimoto's that has to do with my thyroid and your thyroid effects
literally everything in your body.
Yeah.
If you don't know.
I did not.
I still don't really understand at all.
Yeah,
it's a lot.
And anyways, then got diagnosed with that, then started treatment for that.
And then made a lot of changes in my lifestyle and my habits
and , how I eat, how I move, how I think, how like everything.
And so that shifted everything.
I lost 65, 70 pounds,
which is wild.
Right.
Put
some of that back on.
But you know, what can you do?
, Moved.
We moved to Arizona.
Yeah.
That was the biggest.
Change of my life and my, my life is completely flipped from where it was
when I got diagnosed and all that in the span coming down to my career shift.
. And so in span of one year Yes.
Everything
flipped upside down.
which ended up being in a positive way.
. But going in, what were the thoughts?
Brutal.
. Absolutely terrifying.
Not a fan of change.
Which is funny 'cause , I would've told you it wasn't a big deal for me.
'cause you know, some people are really scared of change.
Yeah.
And it's like the most daunting thing that can happen.
I would've told you I was not like that.
Yeah.
And I would've told you that I would embrace it and it was a
positive thing and it was great.
But then it, the actual moment it was.
Absolutely terrifying.
And I was uncomfy the whole time.
. Until I wasn't.
. , 'Cause what is the phrase?
, Be brave or do it anyway, or be afraid and do it anyway.
It's literally on your arm
afraid
and do it anyway.
Be afraid and do it anyway.
So yeah.
Brave on my arm so I could see why you would say no.
That's my motto.
Yeah.
And I would've told you that confidently.
Yeah.
And then when I was actually the one faced with it, it was
like, oh, I get why this sucks.
. You know what's crazy , , you never know.
I don't like the phrase rock bottom, but I do, , think that's a hindsight principle.
Mm-hmm.
So in any given moment, you think this is the worst it could ever be.
Mm-hmm.
And then you get through it, and then a lot of times that wasn't so bad.
And then the hope is that, and it'll never be that bad again.
And then you get smacked down with something else Right back there.
Yeah.
, That's life.
. , Now, currently, how's that, , Hashimoto's?
Well, that's the thing that's a real bummer if we would've.
I recorded this two or three months ago.
Prime of my life.
I was doing great.
And then more change numbers shifted, not so great.
Yeah.
Not doing so great, but it'll probably get better.
Well, is that, is the probably.
I don't, do you believe it right now?
I think in, I think it's the thing I know long term it'll probably get better,
but then I also know realistically it's then also going to get worse again.
, Well, I've thought about this.
When people get sick, even as a, as a 30 5-year-old male right now.
Okay.
The way I confident, I was like, yeah, for sure.
As a 55-year-old male,
I literally wouldn't have questioned it.
That's what's crazy.
I was like, yeah, I know.
I paused.
Absolutely.
. , when I get sick, I often think it really does feel like I will never feel better.
And that's what, like when you can't breathe outta your nose.
Yeah.
You can't remember what it was like to ever breathe through your nose and all.
Yeah,
yeah.
Yeah.
And that's very real.
, then I'm sitting here with somebody and I'll say, they'll talk about
some rough thing and they've been through rough things before.
And I'll say, , , do you have confidence at this point that it will get better?
And the answer for a lot of people is, no, not really.
And that is more of the acceptance that, oh, I'm accepting the fact that I, I
don't feel that way right now, but I'm gonna go ahead and , do things anyway.
Yeah.
. And then slowly you're kind of Okay.
That's the hope.
, And I was thinking about this too.
Tell me, this is , a nerdy thing, I like to, , challenge, I was gonna say criticize
cognitive behavioral therapy a lot, even though I was a. CBT therapist for years.
, It's that your thoughts lead your emotions.
Your emotions lead to your behaviors, and so you've got automatic negative
thoughts or your stinking thinking.
Mm-hmm.
So you just have, I'm good at that by the way.
Okay.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
Um, so all you have to do is change your thought and look at it a different way,
and boom, you're cured
and that leads to a different emotion.
Maybe it feels a little better.
And then a behavior of, oh, I'm gonna do this stuff.
And what, hit me at one point was you get through enough of those things and
you tell yourself even, well, I didn't realize when I was going through it
before that it actually turned out to be something I wasn't even aware of.
And so I think then in hindsight, you can say, well, okay, so moving
forward I need to challenge and say, well, maybe it's something
different than I really think it is.
But then when you're in it, you're telling yourself, no, this one's different.
This is way different.
Does that make sense?
No, it does.
Yeah.
And so then everything in a sense feels like rock bottom, even if it's not
Yeah.
It could be framed that way.
So, which I, because in
that moment it feels just as big, even if.
Technically it's not.
. So I'm trying to think of a good example of that, of, , thinking of somebody
that I'm working with right now, that , they thought that, , something
was happening at their job and they were so terrified and worried.
And, and then as a act therapist, you're just saying, man, that would be hard.
Mm-hmm.
Tell me more about that.
, You're not trying to tell 'em, well, could it possibly be
this, or look at it this way?
'cause if you do, you can see the person isn't really buying it.
They're like, I mean, I guess it could be.
And then she got through it and it turned out that it wasn't
anything that she thought it was.
And then it made sense afterward, but in the moment it didn't make any sense.
, But moving forward, I could see how then somebody, like a therapist
could say, well, have you ever had this situation like that before
and you turned out to be wrong?
I guess that's literally what I'm saying right now.
Today, the theme of today's podcast,
have you ever been wrong before?
Right.
Have you ever looked at it?
. So accepting that it, this just kind of is right now mm-hmm.
Is probably a good place to start from.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, okay.
I did write a couple of other questions though about you being an
esthetician that I'm curious about.
Is there anything that you absolutely did not expect about being an esthetician?
For better or for worse?
Throwing me on the spot.
Do you?
Okay.
Do you want me to give you an example?
Yeah.
In my world?
Yeah.
Okay.
I was just writing about this recently that, , I never anticipated
how much I would be blamed for other people's challenges
. , , I joke all the time, I actually don't have the power to ruin your
marriage, to change your orientation to, , tell you to leave , a religion to,
but it's easy to throw that on you.
Yeah.
When you are the kind of dude sitting there while that's coming up.
Yeah.
, I think people often don't have the courage, maybe that sounds dramatic,
to then say, oh no, this was actually a me thing and this therapist
helped me understand myself better.
Mm-hmm.
Because I just recently got a. I got an email.
I don't get these very often, but somebody was just telling me, I can't
believe you told my spouse to leave.
And I, I didn't, and I know that I didn't, and I can't even really
respond to them because that would be unethical because I, I'm not even
acknowledging that I met with the spouse.
Right.
But then that's kinda how it gets spun.
Yeah.
And then put on you.
Yeah.
No, that is, that's heavy.
Okay.
And
I, I jotted this down.
I even, , thought about, okay, so last night, , when you were
talking about wanting chicken salad.
Yeah.
Do you remember?
So I was actually being hilarious about this 'cause I was just writing about this.
So I just said, oh, um, well, I can tell you I think you would like it, but Yeah.
And then, but you did.
And so then if you , did not like it, then you could say, well,
why'd you tell me to get it then?
And if you do like it, then you can say, you know what, I,
I knew I would like it anyway.
And so then imagine that you'd paid me to say that.
Then you would even think, why do I even go to a therapist anyway?
'cause I, that was what I knew.
I kind of a lose loose.
I should have thought through it regardless.
Yeah.
Of which is part of which is fine.
It's not like, yeah.
It's so hard to be that 'cause you just kinda get used to it.
So there's my example of the good, good and the bad.
Every now and again though, I will be told, man, you change my life.
And I'll say, what, what?
Like, how did I help with that?
And they'll tell me something.
I'm like, oh, I didn't do that.
I did not say that.
But if, if that's what you got out of it, but you got from it.
Sure.
Yeah, yeah.
So, I dunno, anything come to mind for you?
I've a couple things and I don't know if it even really answers the question,
but I feel like I've been like, it's been cool to see how, 'cause okay, so
as a hairstylist there is an element of like touch to it obviously, but
it's more so like the connection I was making with people was the hours
of conversation that we were having at each appointment and that's where
the connection was coming from.
And I've been surprised at through being an aesthetician where you're
just like, it's a little bit more quiet, it's a little bit more calm.
You're not having as many.
Conversations, but it's been like really neat to see the impact that just like
physical touch has in terms of connection, if that makes any sense at all.
, It makes a lot of sense 'cause the whole, the mind body connection or
people, like I've heard, I've had clients that are massage therapists Yeah.
Or physical therapists that talk about there's this power there.
Yeah.
And it's like very healing.
And it's really cool to be a part of and be like on that side of it.
And it's neat because I was a little bit worried going into aesthetics that
I would lose that ability to connect with people if that, you know, 'cause
I loved that part of doing hair.
. And I knew with this I wouldn't be chatting as much.
. But it's like the connection is still there.
It's just in a different way.
And then also I think I've just been, it's further shown me how much self-care
matters and how much, taking a little bit of time, even if just to come in and get
a facial what that can do for somebody's like day or their confidence or.
Those moments.
So there's cool things like that.
But then the other thing I think of that I don't know if this is a positive
or a negative, is that I now can feel when there are germs on my hands.
Oh.
And I had never experienced that in my whole life, but something
like being an a an esthetician, you're touching people's faces.
You're dealing with like blood, like you're, you know, yeah.
It's intense.
You have to be so sanitary that like, you get in this habit of there's like
a joke that estheticians smell, like hand sanitizer and like it's just,
you know, like it's just a thing.
So I'm like always wearing gloves and I'm even with my gloves,
I'm still doing hand sanitizer.
I'm washing my hands constantly.
Wow.
I get home, like my mother can attest to this.
I get home and the first thing I do now is run to the sink and wash my hands.
And I was never like that in my whole life.
And I now seriously feel like I can feel when and now that I'm thinking
about it, I'm about to lose my mind.
Do you want some hand sanitizer?
Well, is it, does it I'll survive.
Does.
But it's
so interesting 'cause I was, I never paid attention to that or cared about that.
Yeah.
And now I seriously am like.
I need to be clean.
Well, is
there any part of it that will it will an OCD vibe, catch hold there Potentially
a little bit.
Yeah.
And that's kinda what it feels like sometimes where I'm like, I, if I don't
do this right now, I'm gonna freak out.
Yeah.
Do you, can you tell when you are or does some people's skin
just seem cleaner than others?
Or is this just a feeling of touching people's skin?
I don't even think it's necessarily about the skin.
It's, it's like anything.
Like, it's just, even if now I'm like very aware of my steering wheel and I'm
like, there are germs on this, my phone, I've started disinfecting my phone.
Okay.
Like weird things like that, that I never paid attention to.
And now I, I feel it.
I, I want to make a joke of where in a few months we'll be
doing one of these episodes.
You'll be here, you know, just wearing a hazmat suit.
It's not a big deal.
Yeah.
No big deal.
It's fine.
Totally fine.
Yeah.
Don't do that.
Okay.
You need an alcohol wipe.
I do have hand sanitizer over here.
No, I'll survive.
Okay.
Are you sure?
Okay.
It's exposure therapy.
It's good for me.
Okay.
Which is a funny thing, like exposure, response, prevention.
I still, I still haven't thoughts about it.
It's, it's a good thing, but then I just think if it's something
that really matters to you, then that would be easier than not.
So this would be 'cause you like your career?
I do, yeah.
Okay.
Have you seen any kind of wacky skin things though?
Not really.
I'm still very early into it, Uhhuh and because of my, I work more with
students than I do with clients.
Okay.
Talk about your job right now because your job is really cool,
what you do and how cool was it that you got the job that you did?
Yeah, it was really cool.
It's been, you can, you can promote whoever you want here
'cause I want to interview Mariah.
Yeah.
I got hired back at the school I went to, and so I work there as I do their
social media, but then I also help in the clinic and then I do all like the
tours and everything for new students.
So I'm like very involved.
And it's been the greatest thing ever.
And yeah, my boss, Mariah, is the best human.
She's pretty cool that's ever existed.
Pretty cool.
Yeah.
But so I get to, I'm still very involved in it, but I'm not like
I'm with students and like in the clinic more than I am hands-on taking
actual clients right this second.
So, no, I haven't seen anything crazy.
Okay.
Yet.
Do you hear about crazy stuff
here and there?
Yeah.
Any, any anything that you people see and go, oh man, you don't wanna run into this?
Not really.
There's just I mean, there's more technical things where there are certain
skin conditions where you see that and it's this is not an aesthetician's
job and that is go to a dermatologist.
Oh yeah.
Like, there's certain things like that and like if you see a cold sore,
you're supposed to say Absolutely not.
And like, you know, yeah.
There's little things like that, but nothing absolutely insane.
I can't even think of what I'm thinking.
I know.
I don't even, I'm like, not really.
I don't even have, I don't even have a go-to.
Yeah.
Do you ever watch the, like, Dr. Pimple popper videos or anything?
I
do.
Which is funny 'cause I used to gross me out and I couldn't do it.
And now I kinda like it.
I do too.
It's not fun.
Um, I just ran into some, a few nights ago that are on animals,
cats.
Yes.
Cats get little blackhead.
Yeah.
It's wild.
I think we should get a cat at the house.
You've always wanted to get a cat.
I have.
This is an excuse for it.
. Now if we're talking about growth through change
so I feel like before we go into more what you wanna talk about
with change, you have to at least briefly explain your career path.
. , . And I did not realize that that played a role.
That's, that's kind of fun.
Yeah.
, We'll talk about my dad a little bit later on, but he spent 30
years in the same industry.
And so there was a part of me that thought, you get a job and you just
do it, and you stay in it forever.
And so I was in the computer industry for a decade, which felt like forever.
And I really did.
It was wild because it wasn't what I loved.
Right.
I can't even imagine going back into my mind at that point because I just
thought, well, this is what you do.
You just buckle down and you don't really like your job.
Were
you miserable or were you just like, this is okay?
It was okay.
I traveled a lot, which was fun.
, I did a lot of trade shows and I would, uh, it's really funny.
So I would do software demonstrations mm-hmm.
And kind of what I was known for.
And I, I forgot about this.
And somebody was commenting on it, not, not that long ago, on, on.
Facebook that, oh, I remember when, and I would do this software demonstration.
Our software was kind of boring, so I had to make it really cool.
Yeah.
And we would always have a really cool booth and we had a , big TV at the time.
And, and I would wrangle people that are walking by at
a trade show in, Hey, whatever.
Do you want to see how fast a hard drive is?
I don't know.
I can't remember how I did it.
Juggle.
Oh,
I did.
I would juggle, I would, I would give away t-shirts.
I would give away, we would always have like little things.
And then I would go around to everybody's booth around me and I would say, Hey, how
about I give away this from this booth?
And, and it just made people laugh.
And I would demonstrate the software a little bit and I would just
basically do, uh, improv comedy.
So it wasn't even about the software.
Not a lot, no.
It was more, and it, and I, if I had ever been a real comedian, I, I think
I would've enjoyed crowd work because I just enjoy, you do that constantly.
I do day to day work.
Do I do.
And that's what I was doing.
Isn't that funny?
Yeah.
And so that I did that, I traveled a lot, but honestly I didn't really.
I didn't, I wasn't, uh, just this diehard computer guy.
Mm-hmm.
And our software was pretty technical.
And so even when I tried to understand it, I didn't.
Yeah.
And , I would get sent to these technical conferences where I didn't really know
anything and I was trying to , build relationships because then that company,
we might do something with the company and I just wasn't, that wasn't my vibe.
Yeah.
. So even though it's funny because as a therapist, I like connecting with anybody,
but I think I was so insecure because they all wanted to talk about the primary and
secondary defect list on a optical drives.
Directory and what you do with bad sectors and
they'd lose you pretty quick.
That stuff.
Well, and what I realize now, this has like been one of the biggest
takeaways early on when I was really getting into therapy was, , this
concept , that I was calling healthy Ego.
, It's things that you know, because it's based on your real experience.
And so as a therapist, the things I know, I know because I, I love them and I'm
gonna read about 'em and I'm gonna talk about 'em and I'm gonna research 'em.
I'm gonna say, oh, I didn't know that about 'em.
And then when I didn't know what I didn't know, I pretended that
I knew about the pri honestly primary secondary defect list.
Mm-hmm.
What we do with bad sectors, we pre-cash the CD ROM drive so we
could access the data faster.
And I could say all those things, but the second somebody would
ask me a question even more.
The bummer was, I would kind of think, well, I, I think I know how that works.
So I would say it, and then somebody would say, oh, well that
doesn't make sense because it this, that's actually very wrong.
Yeah.
And so I'm just, I'm doing a little tap dance there trying to get 'em out of it.
But now I realize, boy, if somebody was saying that to me now, like I can
think of some clients before that have talked about things with addiction
or things like that, and it's maybe the person that's struggling with the
addiction and it's couples therapy and they're saying things that it's like
, that actually isn't the way it works.
That is not very, he's like, well, you know how it's okay to do this.
Or, I remember one of the first clients that was talking about, he had to, like,
his doctor told him, I have to look at pornography sometimes because of whatever.
And he's like, you know how that works, Tony?
It was like, I don't, no,
not even a little bit, but tell me
more.
Tell me more.
And he's like, uh, so that, that concept of healthy ego when I was
in the software industry, I just didn't know that you could actually
not only enjoy your job and part of enjoying your job is really knowing and
understanding and feeling like you like what you do and you want to know more.
Well, okay.
And that's just one side note.
But that's 'cause I really did think I liked hair and I enjoyed doing it.
And I liked my clients, but I did not care much about like the science of it.
Okay.
And the, oh
yeah,
the ingredients and like that whole aspect of it.
And I've been pleasantly surprised with aesthetics that I care a lot.
Like the other night at dinner we were, I was nerding out.
You and I was just like, remember we were at Red Robin?
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
That was fun.
I was nerding out.
Yes, you were.
And it's like, I care a lot about every aspect of it, not just the clients now.
Yeah.
And so that's been interesting too.
No, that's exactly it.
And I think there's something there too where it's like you can have a job
even that you like, but that doesn't necessarily mean, it's like your passion.
, You don't have to hate your job to want to do something else.
No.
That, that's deep.
And if you don't hate your job, you can still do something else
that you might like better.
Okay.
I hadn't really thought of it that way.
Yeah.
So it's like scaling it up basically,
because I didn't hate it.
It's not like I was miserable and I was like, I need to get out of this.
Yeah.
I was okay.
I was neutral, and then I had health crap, and then I, you
know, felt like I needed to shift.
And I feel like I, I feel like I shouldn't stand for 14 hours every
day and like do whatever, you know, but it's, again, I wasn't miserable,
so it was like a stepping point on the way, it's
like the good, better, best type of thing.
Yeah,
yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
I found this, so I co-opted this healthy ego concept from a lady
named Eleanor Greenberg, who writes a lot about narcissism.
Okay.
You cool if I go through this with you?
Mm-hmm.
I want to make a joke and say, imagine if you can, a time when the
word narcissism wasn't a negative.
Isn't that wild?
There was a, there was such a thing
to me that is so not true.
Well, that's what's
funny.
, Eleanor Greenberg says, unfortunately, in the English language, the word
narcissism has come to mean two entirely different things, depending
on whether it's being used formally as a diagnosis, as a narcissistic.
Personality disorder or informally is a synonym for positive self regard.
I'm often asked, isn't a little bit of narcissism healthy and normal?
And she said, I would like to clarify that distinction.
So this is interesting.
So she defines this thing as, here's what normal healthy narcissism looks like.
And so I just,
I don't like using it.
I'm like, why can we say confidence?
Well, ego.
That's, I
literally, I, I, I mean I own this so much . I'd love to interview her 'cause
this was, I think a game changer . Yeah.
In the practice.
Normal healthy narcissism.
I'm gonna say everywhere the word narcissism is, I'm gonna say ego.
Gotcha.
So, normal healthy ego.
This is a realistic sense of positive self regard.
That's based on the person's actual accomplishments.
It's relatively stable because the person is assimilated into their
self-image, the success that came as a result of their actual hard work.
To overcome real life obstacles.
So because it's based in real achievements, normal, healthy ego is
relatively impervious to the minor slights and setbacks that we all experience as
we go through life, normal ego causes us to care about ourselves, do things
that are in our real self-interest and is associated with genuine self-respect.
One can think of it as something that's inside of us.
So you can see that if I don't really know or like what I do , there's a good
chance I don't really know or like who I am, and so then I'm going to be defensive
and I'm going to not feel grounded and confident as So if somebody's talking
to you about skin stuff now, oh, I, I would love to talk to you about that.
Yeah.
And it's not that you're trying to figure out, oh, I hope I get this right,
right.
And that was when I did hair, I felt that a lot where if clients
would ask me a tricky question, it was like a nerve wracking thing.
And obviously I'm still new to aesthetics and there's a lot,
I don't know obviously, but.
I know more than I, I would argue I know more already about aesthetics
than I do about okay hair, which is crazy 'cause I did hair for five years.
Yeah.
Okay.
Now listen that, see you get it.
And I liked how you had the little, you're passionate about it.
I care.
Yeah.
, So then she says, here's the opposite of normal healthy ego, which would
be pathological defensive narcissism.
So I guess if I've never actually done this.
If you threw pathological defensive ego in there too,
because your ego is this adorable.
My friend Preston would say it's like an adorable security guard.
It's the dog on the porch that's like, get outta here.
Protecting your ego.
So pathological defensive ego.
This is a defense against feelings of inferiority.
The person dawns a mask of arrogant superiority in an attempt to convince
the world that he or she is special.
But inside the person feels very insecure about his or her actual self-worth.
And there's more.
But, so if you put it that, think of it that way.
I would go to these technical conferences and I felt incredibly insecure.
Mm-hmm.
Because these are real computer scientists and computer software engineers trying
to clean off, like to fit in there.
Yeah.
Then it kind of makes sense here too, 'cause then, , she says this
facade of superiority is so thin that it's like a helium balloon and
one small pin prick will deflate it.
This makes the person hypersensitive to minor slights that someone with
healthy ego would not even notice.
Instead, somebody with this type of defensive ego is easily wounded,
frequently takes any form of disagreement as serious criticism, and is likely
to lash out and devalue anybody who they think disagrees with them.
Now we're gonna into the good old narcissistic personality disorder or
incredible emotional immaturity where if you have a different opinion than mine,
then you think you're right and I'm wrong.
Yeah.
And we're into the black or white thinking.
So she said they're constantly on guard trying to protect their status.
Pathological ego can be thought of as a protective armor that's on the outside.
So that's pretty deep.
So if you really like what you do, you find the thing that you like
and you, think about it often.
You, are curious about it.
You're looking for things throughout your day.
You're excited about it.
Yeah.
Then it's more likely that you are, you're building this healthy ego because
it's based off of your actual hard work to overcome real life obstacles.
Mm-hmm.
And it's based in real achievement.
Yeah.
And so then it's like something that's happening on the inside.
And I think that will lead eventually to concepts like differentiation, where if
somebody is saying, well, I don't like the way you did that, then I'm like, well, I,
I'm good, but tell me what you don't like.
'cause I do want to, I wanna be the best I can be.
So I wanna hear you.
That's deep.
Yeah.
And I think it's so, it is a good point.
'cause it's so different if your, if your job is something that you're doing
just to do 'cause you think you have to.
Yep.
You're not doing anything positive for yourself or yourself.
Growth.
Yeah.
It's okay.
It's not bad . You're doing something with your time and it's good.
You might be earning a living pr providing for yourself and that matters family.
And that's
important, but it's just so different, the work that then you can also do for
yourself if you are doing something that you are genuinely passionate about.
. And want to be doing
, Have you ever heard somebody say that?
, I don't want to make a job out of something that I love 'cause it'll
no longer be something I love.
Yeah.
But I would argue that if you do love it, that it honestly can't get to that point.
Yeah.
Or there's a
way to balance it, I guess that, yeah.
Where it won't get like
I say this thing, thinking I'm funny at times, but I honestly would sit
there and I could still remember validating people that would say that.
And all of a sudden one day I thought, wait a minute, I love what I do.
Like, wait, I don't feel that way.
Yeah, yeah.
No, this is, it doesn't,
I mean, it is a job and sometimes there are days where it feels
more of like one than not.
But I like doing it right.
And maybe if people don't, then that might be a cue to, are they
not doing something that really
Yeah.
Comes from a place of a healthy ego that they are really curious about it,
thinking about it , and not that we're saying you have to be obsessed with it
in your downtime, but it's just, oh, I found the thing that I really like
and I enjoy and I think about, but
overall you enjoy it more than you don't.
Yeah.
I feel like it's just the biggest thing
for sure.
Yeah.
But anyway, circling back, yes.
You did your computer thing.
And then you busted your butt to become a therapist.
Yeah.
And my whole point with that was seeing that and getting to see that modeled, I do
think gave me permission to then feel like I could instigate change in my own life.
Even again though that it wasn't something that I hated.
That's
pretty cool.
It wasn't miserable, you know?
Yeah.
And that it was a way to spin that change could be a good thing.
. And I think that's cool too.
'cause obviously there are a lot of ways that change sucks and I think
we've briefly said that already.
Yeah.
But it is really hard and it, and we'll get into more of that, but.
That was a nice model of this can be good and there are ways to make it.
That's nice.
Good.
I did not even know.
. ' I had a good run there all the way through my twenties, getting into my
early thirties financially, , career wise, getting to do really cool things.
Yeah.
And then going back to school and my early thirties graduate school and
it was the proverbial night school.
Right.
And it's like that
was probably a very intimidating change that had a lot of Yeah.
Negatives in the moment.
Yeah.
But obviously worked out.
. Well,
. And was good in the long run.
You know what's crazy I wrote a humor column in a newspaper for
10 years, and so we just had a, well, I didn't have the baby, but
mom had a baby and I was with her.
Mm-hmm.
In that
you were somewhat involved.
Yeah.
That's somewhat awkward.
And I started writing a lot of humor columns about it, and I wanted to publish
a book, and I really did, and it's funny, I think I always probably wanted to
be a therapist, but I used that as an, as a reason was I said, well, I'll go
back and get my master's in counseling.
I'll get some letters behind my name and , then I'll have a reason to write a book.
'cause who am I, I'm just some humor columnist in a small town paper.
Yeah.
And I was like a several months into grad school where they talked about,
oh, before you graduate you have to take this practicum, you have to find
a site and you start seeing clients.
And I actually had not thought all the way through that.
And I almost stopped.
You just wanted to write your book?
Kind of, yeah.
Yeah.
But I think deep inside I wanted to do the therapy thing and see clients.
Yeah.
And so then I remember almost quitting at that point.
And then I thought, oh, I've already taken out student loans.
You were too far into that point.
Yeah.
And even at first it was not the funnest thing in the world, seeing clients.
'cause I didn't think I knew what I was doing.
Yeah.
That's intimidating.
Yeah.
That's like heavy stuff that you were being thrown into.
Yeah.
So look at you now.
All worked out.
we spend a lot of time with, we'll, we'll stay with that change.
'cause we were gonna talk about my dad moving to Arizona.
My mom passing away.
Maybe we can save that for a, a different episode.
Because that's been a lot of change.
Yeah.
But let's get into , why change feels so hard.
So I would love for you to just jump in here.
When I throw something, I'll give you a muse.
Okay.
But I, these are all things that I feel very passionate about.
Okay.
Brains crave certain.
Because evolution's wired us to see uncertainty as not safe.
Yeah.
And I would even, I would just argue that like unknown in general is one of the most
terrifying things about human existence.
Yeah.
And the unknown in any capacity.
Why do you think that, at least for me, that it's, oh yeah.
It's terrifying to not know.
Yeah.
It's just terrifying to not have the information and to not have like
a set, everything's gonna be okay.
No guarantee of that, you know?
Yeah.
Because that does sound almost absolutely terrifying.
Which would sound crazy to then leave something that at least, you know,
to jump out into the great abyss.
Right.
And not have that certainty that, hey, this is going to actually be
. Even, okay.
Not even good, better, best, like, best option, but even, okay.
that's, it could be worse, literally.
that's a realistic option in certain scenarios, so that's terrifying.
Yeah.
Isn't that crazy?
Yeah, it makes sense why our brains were, it does a little afraid of that.
Well, we have this negativity bias and it's because, , our ancestors, if they
got it wrong one time, they're dead.
I mean, they're gone.
They're gone for, , If one person from your, tribe ate some
berries and dropped dead, we will never eat those berries again.
Because if a guy a couple years down the road says, maybe they're better now.
He's gone.
or you are gonna go hunt and you see the tiger outta the corner
of your eye and, you know what?
I'm gonna risk it.
I'm gonna go get that antelope.
No.
And maybe this guy won't get me.
No.
'cause if I, if he gets me gone, well, you can't risk
it.
Yeah.
So
that's what the brain is evolved to,
so it makes sense that that's where we're coming from.
. . But the sad part of that is that, so then your brain is
really good at making up stories.
Yeah.
To then tell you why things will be scary.
'cause it, it's saying, wait, you, no, you can't go do that.
What if this happens?
What if the, what if this?
What if this?
And all of a sudden you're , oh my gosh.
It's like
we're not actually talking about poisonous berries and tigers anymore.
. really probably will be, okay,
what if somebody makes fun of me?
What if it doesn't go well?
What if they laugh sucks?
What if I forget what I'm saying.
What if
it's awful?
It all sucks.
. Realistically, yeah.
But it's also not the end of the world.
. No, it's not.
And it's most likely temporary.
There's a phrase in the I, I guess just in the world, I was saying the therapy
world, but that your brain will choose certainty over safety any day of the week.
And that's almost terrifying.
It's kind of a bummer.
. That that's just how we're programmed.
. , when I work with people that are in unhealthy relationships, now we're
getting into the world of a trauma bond where somebody will say, okay,
but sometimes it is okay though.
So
you'll clinging to that.
So
cling to that, and you'll ignore the negative part.
And then you do that long enough and then your brain just
says, well, this is what we do.
And , this must be okay because this is the familiar, because
if I leave, then what if?
What if I never find somebody who, what if he comes after me?
What if, you know
what if it gets worse?
Yeah.
That's sad kind.
It really is.
We shouldn't do that.
No.
So I think if I'm hearing you correctly, you're saying how about knock it off?
Yeah.
Does that work in the factory world a lot.
World times.
Yeah.
I forget about it till that's mini sessions in No, I usually forget
and I'm just like, have you thought about not doing that or Oh my gosh.
. , So we got that Brains crave certainty.
Then we've got growth requires discomfort, but we don't like being un uncomfortable.
I think we kind of covered that one.
Oh, do you?
Okay.
Growth requires discomfort.
You got any Yeah.
Buts.
I don't think that's a certain, a hundred percent.
Yeah.
It always has to be uncomfortable, but I, I do think more often than
not, when you are uncomfortable, there is some growth happening.
. I feel like that's fair to say.
Yeah.
But I think you can also be growing and just , there's simple ways to, like,
I'm trying to think of just I, me too.
Some little things of . A little bit of mindfulness and going on
walks and like those, the little things we've talked about in the
past where it's like you are growing
Yeah.
Reading books.
You know what I mean?
Like
it's not that uncomfortable.
No.
Yeah.
It might not even be, for the most part,
it's maybe not uncomfortable at all.
It's maybe even kind of pleasant and technically you're growing.
Yeah.
But I do think the biggest, well, I don't know if I'd argue the biggest, because
the little things add up and matter a lot, but the really uncomfortable
situations tend to have a lot of growth
they do
with them
And no one, and that's, so that's the part I think is being a therapist,
that people don't come in when things are like, they're okay.
I wish they would do more.
But even if they do come in when things are just okay, a lot of times
people think, okay, well I don't even know if this is really helping.
And I know
I'm very bad at this.
Yeah, we've talked about this, but, 'cause I love the concept
of mindfulness and meditation.
I think it's the coolest thing.
I think it's great, but if I'm okay, I'm not doing it.
Yeah.
And I'm very guilty of that.
And then I get into.
A time of high anxiety.
Yeah.
And things are rough.
And then I'm like, okay, I need to do this.
And then it's only gonna help so much in that moment because
I haven't, I don't have the base
Yep.
Yeah.
Of it going, you know?
Yeah.
Oh, but boy do I,
yeah.
Because I, I mean, I've probably gotten two or three texts this weekend from
people that I need an emergency session, and it's people that, oh, things are bad.
So now they, it's almost like now it's
time to like, okay, now I need the help.
Now I need to do all these things.
And it's like, but you could be doing them before.
Yeah.
I'm very guilty of not doing those things well, and quite frankly, until it's,
yeah.
Not too late, but until it's, I'm in the moment and feeling the things.
Yeah.
And when people come in, in the moment, they often say,
I don't even know what to do.
And then except just
fix it.
Yeah.
And unfortunately,
that's where you can start saying things and you get the Yeah.
But yeah.
But, so in that situation, one of the only things you can do as a
therapist at times is just, you just want to be there and, and.
Say, tell me more.
Yeah.
Help me understand.
And that's, I think sometimes why therapy will get a bad rap.
'cause they're saying, well, they don't even do anything for you.
And it's like, well, when you come in once in a blue moon mm-hmm.
With just a, like a tragic thing or you are just really angry and
frustrated, then can you I don't, there's
no immediate cure that it's like, embrace that realistically.
Okay.
Because a lot
of times you'll even say, Hey how can I help you?
Mm-hmm.
What would that look like to help you right now?
Mm-hmm.
And usually the number one answer's like, I don't know, just,
I don't know, make it go away.
Tell me what to do.
It's like, okay, let's, let's get that have to be
thrown and knock it off.
Yeah.
Thought about knocking it off.
So that's, yeah.
That's tough.
I was talking to somebody recently and, and I thought they made such a good point
and I had such empathy for them, but they were saying that they didn't know
what to do to handle a situation mm-hmm.
With like a, a family member.
And so then they just said, but I just, I feel like if I'm not worrying about
it, then I'm not doing anything about it.
What do you think about that?
That's intense.
Yeah.
I get it though.
'cause it's like we need to feel like we're doing something.
Yeah.
Productive.
And sometimes that's not, sometimes it feels like the only thing you
can do is worry or think about it.
Yeah.
In certain situations, you know?
Yeah.
And this is where I think it's interesting because you've got
the cognitive behavioral therapy approach, which is telling somebody,
well, maybe they're doing this or maybe this is what's going on.
Mm-hmm.
But that's where you can see, or at least my experience has been the person that
is in that position and they're worrying.
They're not gonna buy, they're not buying that.
They're saying I, but how do you know?
Oh, we don't fact to that.
There's a lack of certainty.
Yeah.
So in the act world, it really is like, man, that would be hard if I, if you are.
It's
hard.
But worrying doesn't help.
Well, and there's a, we've
also, we've talked a lot about this too, though.
This is a tangent really, but I, because I hate when people tell me like.
Well, just don't worry about it.
Yeah.
And don't whatever, because it's like the realistic human
experience is to feel things.
And usually feel things big.
And it's part of that then comes with the natural thought process.
And so I think to some extent you're allowed to think about it.
Oh, absolutely.
But then it's do you just don't cross over to the full blown panic and worries of it.
Yeah.
Or the ruminating side.
But it's so normal to think about it and process it.
It would be weird to not exactly.
But then it's like, what do you do with that?
But
there's a way to not sit there with it forever.
Yeah.
But it's hard though.
'cause that goes back to what you were saying about the,
when the intent situation hits.
Mm-hmm.
Now's the time where you need to go get the time machine.
Yeah.
Go back a couple years Yeah.
And start practicing, start
laying down that foundation of the tools and everything.
Yeah.
Because at that point, even if you say to somebody, well,
how can I help you right now?
Mm-hmm.
A lot of times that would be the, I don't know, or we'll
fix it or tell me I'm right or.
And then you can even see in the couples situation when I'm doing couples therapy,
sometimes the, if the person's just trying to be supportive, they, the other
person that that is worrying is gonna say, okay, I can tell you don't care.
And it's almost like, Hey, I'm gonna diffuse that over onto you
and I'm gonna be mad at you now.
'cause I don't know what to do with my anxiety, my discomfort.
Mm-hmm.
And that's really hard because it, that is just like, I don't know
what to do with these feelings.
Yeah.
So I have to put them somewhere.
Yeah.
So
I either need to go fix, try to fix it.
Mm-hmm.
I need to tell, I was talking to somebody this last week about interventions
and I was saying that man, and the, at least my experience has been that an
intervention is, is often more about the people, the group, the group,
the parents, the, and they're like, I am so upset and I'm so worried about
this person that they need to, that I need to take action of some sort.
Yeah.
And they need to know.
So I'm gonna get all these people around.
We're gonna write letters, we're going sit there and we're gonna say,
do you know how hard this is for me?
And so you need to,
you need to ease my discomfort now and change something.
And it's like, that's not really fair.
It's hard.
It's hard because, you know, every now and again that might work.
And I remember watching the show intervention when I was a young therapist
and I remember at the time even thinking, oh man, I think I might want to do these.
But then you see they don't often work.
Right.
I feel like they backfire more often than not.
Well, 'cause think about that.
If the person has said, Hey, um, I don't want your help.
Yeah.
And that's that fine line though, because sometimes if the person's emotional
baseline is so low, they might not be in a position to even know what they need.
Right.
So then they're doing what I just talked about.
They're projecting it over onto you.
Mm-hmm.
And saying, well, it's your fault.
And I might be saying, is it like, I didn't even know.
Yeah.
I'm so sorry.
You know, and they're saying, well, apologize for it.
And I mean, that's, that's rough.
I wrote down this note that 'cause I, I read somewhere and
I couldn't find where I read it.
But not worrying.
Okay.
Not worrying.
Feels like not trying , so worry , is a, an illusion of control and what we're
saying, soothing discomfort, even if it doesn't move us forward because we want
to feel like we are doing something.
Mm-hmm.
Because if not, then it will feel as if we have no control.
That's interesting.
I've never thought of it as a,
an illusion of control taking,
power or control type of thing.
But that is interesting 'cause it makes sense.
It's like we gotta do something.
It's kind of tricking yourself into thinking.
. You're putting energy towards the situation and doing something positive,
but it's like, it's just, it's not.
Yeah.
And then I think maybe we've talked about this before.
I know I've talked about it with your mom at times, but,
is a little bit of worrying.
'cause you can't just not think about something and you need to think about
things in order to then make a decision.
Well,
that's what my argument was.
I think there where it's like you do, you can't just not, you can't,
every time something negative happens, you can't just not think about it.
Yeah.
And shove it down, because then that's also just as negative
as if you were full-blown Yeah.
Worrying, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
So there's some balance there.
Yeah.
Because that's more of a you, Mr. Therapist guy thing.
Well, well, I think
that comes with a, it's, I have to do something, but then, oh, yeah.
No, I'm glad you said it.
So you do something, but then you have to accept, and sometimes I want to make
up a different word than consequence, because I'm gonna do something, but
then I have to accept the fact that then there could be consequences to it.
So let's say somebody has said, don't contact me.
And then at some point you're like, you're ruminating, you're worrying you're
overthinking to the point where then it's like, okay, I can't not do something.
Mm-hmm.
Then there's an acceptance though that then that may come with a con.
It might not go well, or it might go well because, and that's the hard part because
we're back to, I want, we're back to that.
I want certain we're to
that.
Yeah.
Back to that unknown could go either way.
And
then look at that.
Right.
And then look at that.
So now I'm, I'm comfy.
Yeah.
So I'm gonna go ask somebody else, what would you do?
Mm-hmm.
And then it's almost like, oh, you would, okay, I think I'm gonna do it.
So then it's well, these other people said that they would do it, even though
nobody knows what it feels like to be you.
Right.
In that situation, you can't
really take that.
It gets complicated.
so that worry is this illusion of control.
That's deep.
It is deep.
. So where do we leave off
Back to change, huh?
Yep.
So we are at, okay.
And how long has this gone?
About an hour.
Oh, okay.
. Yeah.
Let's wrap this up with what actually helps.
Okay.
All right.
Mackey, it's time to bring it home.
Let's do it.
. What actually helps during change?
We talked about, and this is okay, this will be good 'cause this is the stuff
where people will say, I know I'm supposed to just feel the feelings and mm-hmm.
And sit with the discomfort.
But now what?
And I a hundred percent agree 'cause it's, I have sat with feeling,
what do you really do with that?
Yeah, yeah.
It's hard.
It is.
I think there's a lot of power in not rushing to make a decision on
anything because that really is just, I want to get rid of this
discomfort now and I'm gonna hope for some certainty, so let's just do it.
Which sometimes I do think is a strength because somebody will say,
okay, can you do this thing for me?
And if I don't do the thing, I know I'm not gonna do it.
It's the old A DHD thing.
Well, there's only two timeframes now or later, so I don't do it right now.
I'll do it later and later isn't gonna happen until it
all of a sudden becomes now.
So there have been times where I can't even think of a good one, but
where mom might've said, Hey, can you go ahead and order this thing?
And I'm like, on it, I'll order it and then maybe five
minutes later, Hey Jie, do that.
And I'll say I did.
So there could come a consequence with that, but there's also been times where
I'm like, I'll do it and I forget.
And then Hey, did you ever do that thing?
No.
Let me do it.
And maybe that thing is no longer available so consequences can happen.
Yeah.
But I think it's nice to build in a pause before one reacts.
Yeah.
And I, I think that's a nice way to put it, because it's hard, like if
somebody does say, just like sit with the discomfort when you're actually
in the position to be sitting with the discomfort, it feels like forever.
Yeah.
Even 30 seconds of feeling uncomfortable feels like forever.
Yeah.
And so it's like, that's really hard.
But to phrase it that way and I don't know, add in,
like it's, the pause is okay.
Yeah.
And it's okay to like not have all the answers, even though
it doesn't feel like it.
No.
And so it's like in those moments of change, it really is okay that
things are different and changing.
And that doesn't mean everything's bad and awful and going to be like that.
Yeah.
Forever.
Yeah.
And it, it will eventually feel more normal or certain at some point.
It's that dumb thing where then I have to tell myself this all the time, but it's
five years from now this will not matter.
Yeah.
I probably won't even remember remember any part of this.
That's a good point.
It's just getting through and usually it can even be more of a six months from now.
Yeah.
A month from now.
Like this thing that's going on Yeah.
Will not matter or will not be, will not feel so big.
And that's, and I want to, I only know what it feels like to be me, honestly.
Mm-hmm.
So I think that's where I often go to the, well as a therapist, but maybe it's just
as a human that has been something that, I don't know if it comes with maturity
or sitting with enough people long enough
mm-hmm.
Where sometimes that building and that pause things will, I wanna say
not will take care of themselves or,
but like naturally fall into place a little bit.
Yeah.
And then it is kind of that thing where.
All of a sudden, a couple weeks have gone by and you can kind of sit back
and go, I'm actually maybe Okay.
Yeah.
And maybe not great.
Yeah.
And maybe not yeah, maybe you liked the position you were in a few weeks
before, but you're kind of okay.
Yeah.
And then it's like, maybe I'll continue to kind of be okay.
Yeah.
Until all of a sudden you're back in a spot where you feel good again.
Yeah.
And things are actually feeling good, genuinely.
Yeah.
And I think I, and I think people often would think then,
but that means I gave up.
Or I'm you know, I'm not doing something.
But I think it's, part of that is if everything ultimately is
a me thing, then what am I gonna learn through this process?
Mm-hmm.
Am I gonna learn patience?
Am I gonna learn mindfulness?
Am I gonna learn to make more room for all of my feelings and emotions?
I can be okay, but I, but not Okay.
Is right here waiting.
Right.
And it's okay to just kind of let that play out in a sense.
Yeah.
Even though it's un uncomfy It
is.
And it feels wrong to just like you.
Yeah.
Where it's not even giving up, but it feels wrong to just kind of be like.
I'm not gonna think about this for every second of every day and
I'm not gonna be upset about it for every second of every day.
Yeah.
But it's like that is what's almost allowing the change to do its thing,
which then is allowing the growth.
Yeah.
To also do its thing.
I remember working with this person that had had chronic pain for a long time.
Mm-hmm.
And if you even just said, Hey, how are you doing today?
And if they, and I would make jokes in my head where it's almost like
if they slipped up and said, you know, I'm doing okay, then they would
immediately cover, come back and say,
but actually, I mean,
but I mean, there's still a whole lot going on that's not okay.
I get that.
I feel like I've, I have to catch myself with that sometimes
with my Hashimoto stuff.
Uh, where it's like my initial response be like, I'm actually okay right now.
Yeah.
And then I notice myself wanting to be like, but this
is still a thing in my life.
Don't forget about it.
What do you think
that's about?
What do you think that's about?
I have a thought.
I don't really know.
I think just, I think because it is something I deal with 24 7.
There's just a part of me that wants other people to understand that Yeah.
This is a thing that I'm dealing with.
Yeah.
And this is something I'm feeling, and even if I'm presenting as good
and okay, and my life looks great, it's like there's still this level of
everything's not perfect all the time.
So carrying this around with me.
Yeah.
So it's just like acknowledging that, I don't know.
No, I'd like it too.
It's just
that I think you're right.
I think we, so we really do want to be seen and we want to be known by another
person and we want people to care.
And part of the growth process is learning to care more for myself, knowing
that others will ultimately fail me in that that it is a it how many times?
I said at the end of the day, ultimately I need to figure out a
way to validate myself, heal myself.
But that doesn't mean that I don't want to process emotion in concert with another
human, or I want to go on this journey together with somebody I care about or
have these mutual shared experiences.
Mm-hmm.
I still think those are the best.
They are ideal.
Because eventually you learn to be to be okay and be in the
relationship with the other person.
And then that's it's no longer your two halves of a hole, your
two holes, which always makes me wanna tell a joke at that point.
Okay.
But your
two complete holes going together and then you're, it's like then now, or the
one plus one is three kind of a concept.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Deep.
Okay.
I think we should call it.
Okay.
We're gonna do this again next year.
Yeah.
Perhaps.
Okay.
A couple years from now.
Oh, go find you on, you're doing some killer stuff on the social medias.
I'll put the links in.
Show notes.
Thank you.
And where, because you had one of your, I'd even texted you this, I
shared your story where you were running one day with Hashimoto's.
Mm-hmm.
With a norm, a number of people, because that was so powerful.
Can you kind of sum that up?
What was that about?
And people would need to go find this Post
it.
Okay.
So I've been posting on my Beauty by Mackey account.
I've been posting more about my wellness.
Journey inside of things.
But I recently got like lab results back, got some news back.
Things were not great.
And so my solution, because I grew up with a freaking ultra runner dad who,
triathlete mom and an Iron Man mother.
Yeah.
So my solution to those problems is to go for a run.
Yeah.
But I just filmed each mile and talked about things each mile and I just was
feeling all the feelings and having some big moments of feeling really
sad and upset and frustrated that this is something I have to go through.
And this has been a big change in my life that has been negative and a lot
of ways, but then that I was having some deep feeling moments on my run that like
I, I was also really proud of myself for how I handled it and how I've made
a lot of changes and just feeling like.
In that moment, like, okay, you know, I am actually going to be okay.
And I don't know what that looks like.
Yeah.
And I think that's like a big, deep thing where it's still
unknown and it's still uncertain.
And I technically don't have anyone saying, yes, you are going to be okay.
But kind of finding that peace, like within myself of knowing
somehow some way I am gonna be okay.
Because technically, and this is something you have always gone on for, but
technically I have been okay every single time that anything has happened, you know?
Yeah.
And that's like a deep thing and that's a dumb thing that you've not done.
Oh, thank you.
It's not dumb.
It sounds great.
But you always tell me one of my biggest anxiety symptoms is feeling
like I can't take a full deep breath.
Right?
Yeah.
You're hunger,
you've nailed it so far in your life though.
But that's what you always say to me.
Yeah.
You've been breathing good.
Or I'll say to you like, I cannot, I feel like I can't breathe.
Like I, this is not okay.
And then you will hit me with the, so far you've been breathing okay.
A hundred percent of your life.
Yeah.
And it's like, I think that that is just.
It's a testament though, to bigger things.
And when change is happening and when things are really hard, where
it's it's that cheesy saying where it's like you've survived a hundred
percent of your worst days or whatever, where it's like, that's funny.
It's a dumb little Pinterest quote that you see, but it's true.
And you've You've made it through.
Yeah.
Every single thing.
And so anyways, on this run, I was just having that epiphany of okay, I'm okay.
And then specifically in that moment here I am, 70 pounds down, running
10 miles, like maybe 10 miles.
Yeah.
Maybe I'm okay.
Yeah.
Or maybe I will be okay.
And it's probably still gonna be an up and down thing and there's
still gonna be all those moments of scary change and scary unknown.
But that doesn't mean that I can't find moments even within
that where I'm Okay, but then no long term, yeah, I will be okay.
Yeah.
That's amazing.
That is, I love that.
Because
I don't know what else I talked about in that.
I don't know if I even hit that, but that was the gist.
That was a big one.
Yeah.
And so 10 miles, when is the marathon you're training for?
It's in December
and it is the what marathon?
The
Phoenix Marathon.
Okay.
If anybody's in Phoenix.
And I'm terrified.
Yeah.
You're going training for that right now.
You want, you wanna hear a little bit of where my immaturity still lies though?
I almost wanted to say a funny thing and and 'cause you're
running such fast splits now.
I was gonna say, Hey, what's it like to finally be faster than the old man?
I'm like, wait, you've always been faster.
I could just go a little bit longer.
A little bit.
Yeah.
You're running a hundred mile races, sir. Yeah,
but no, but it's like it though.
But even like from high school on you were beating me, whatever.
Okay.
Mackey people will find you on at Beauty by Mackey on Instagram.
Mm-hmm.
And
I think that's TikTok too.
TikTok Beauty by Mackey.
Okay.
Simple.
And The Mind, the Mirror and me.
Lots of old episodes.
Yeah.
But it's what we've done together, so Yeah.
Yeah.
We have a lot of stuff there.
And we maybe will try to do more.
I think
so.
Okay.
Love you Mac.
Love ya.
My hands are sweaty.
Arms weak.
Like spaghetti or No?
What is it?
What's the m Andum?
Mom?
Spaghetti.
Mom Spaghetti.
Oh.
But then it's like something on your shirt already.
It's calm and ready to drop bombs.
We keep something, but I keep on forgetting what she wrote down.
Oh, that would've been nice to hit start.