Rebel_mixdown
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Rebel: [00:00:00] I don't believe there's any other art form out there that is right on the cutting edge and right at the heart of the revolution. And to be part of that and part of that community and creating something that I believe has value a lot of value for humanity in the future, I think that's most exciting thing about being a Bitcoin artist.

Clay: This is the Bitcoin Muse and I'm Clay Ines. Today I'm joined by mixed media artist Rebel Money Art Rebel's. Evolution is an perfectly reflected in his work that wrestles with many of the big ideas and aesthetic challenges posed by Bitcoin. I admire his commitment and unwavering dedication to the high standards he perceives.

Bitcoin inspires in everyone, but especially artists. It's great to hear difficult ideas eloquently articulated, [00:01:00] and it was fun to chat with someone who knows the world of podcasting firsthand. His work with 21 Ism helps germinate the Bitcoin muse and still provides me with a valuable resource. As Kindred Spirits Rebel, and I quickly got immersed in conversation, so I just hit record and off we went.

Exploring the role of art in a world where Bitcoin exists. We went fairly deep out of the gate and didn't really come back up. I'm sorry that many of the formalities of podcasting, like introductions, URLs, Twitter handles and alike didn't get spoken. So be sure to pop into the show notes to find Rebel's compelling work and social feeds.

I feel like we could have bounced ideas back and forth for hours, but as you'll hear in a second, we both think it wise to honor everyone's time with brevity, even if it leaves one, wanting for more. I hope you enjoy this contemplative rip with Rebel, but 45 minutes, hour always feels like it's respectful.

Of everybody's time or, or you go off and find another longer form thing with somebody else down the [00:02:00] line. 

Rebel: That's great. I, I've always thought about an hour is enough. I think if you're going over that, I think you're either talking too much or not really hitting the key points. So I think if you, you're like any artist, if you've got a restriction, then you actually bring some of the best ideas to the forefront.

That's ultimately what creation is, isn't it? When, when an artist is restricted, Some of your best work is made. I dunno whether you agree with that. 

Clay: I do entirely. In fact, I I think we should just roll with that notion that, that a photographer frames their work. You know, a painter chooses a canvas size, that it is in the limitations set by the artist that the muses sort of have to find their voice.

Rebel: I agree. I think I, I dunno about you as well. I have you, have you done any artwork so far in Bitcoin? 

Clay: I haven't, I've totally do with the idea of making portraits that sort of historical portraits, but I wouldn't consider that a deeply creative endeavor. Slightly more technical and [00:03:00] historical.

Rebel: Okay. Because I think that that would be interesting. I think as soon as you start creating in Bitcoin, I think it's, you realize the, I wouldn't even say restrictions placed on you, but the, the ethos of Bitcoin that has an influence on your work. And how you work as well, I think has a massive impact. It's restrictions, but also freedoms in the same way.

So as an example, I, I would argue, you know, for instance you know, we, in the Bitcoin space we are talk about time preference a lot, don't we? And shorten and long time preference. And some of the work I've done on, on my pieces, they take quite a while to do around about six months to, from conception to.

The final piece, and it's having that, you've talked about it before on, on this show with Brei, which was a great rip as well. And I think it, it is having that patience to, for the process learning and, and bringing that Bitcoin ethos in, [00:04:00] I think It's definitely something as well that the collectors appreciate as well, or even maybe not appreciate because sometimes we, we collectors want to get their work, but it's not possible to get to, to whip something out really quickly because quality takes time as, as we know it.

Just to have that kind of space as, as an artist rather than just, Quickly getting something out into the ether where perhaps it's not ready or it's not just not right. It's actually quite liberating. 

Clay: And similarly, scarcity would play a role there too, right? 

Rebel: It would do, yeah, exactly. I think in one of my pieces the belief piece, they take two and a half weeks to make, even though the concept has been completed.

So it was two and a half weeks of my time. So after I conceived at the piece, I was like, right, okay, do I make this an addition of something? And I was like, right. Two and a half weeks. Okay, two and a half weeks, three weeks. Okay. So if I do an addition around [00:05:00] 21, that is a year of, of approximately a year of my creative output.

So I was like, okay, let's do this. So I am, I'm bound now by, by my piece to create my creative output there for a year in order to do it. And, and that may tie in with some of the, the kind of religious aspects of, of the piece as well, you know, but it's definitely proof of work that goes along with it.

And I think yeah, ties in really well with the, the kind of, Bitcoin ethos as well 

Clay: and the Bitcoin ethos. So scarcity, proof of work. Time preference. I think two. You have the challenge of just understanding what Bitcoin is, right? So your, your work is being consumed, I suppose, and collected by Bitcoiners, but there's an aspect of your work being seen by, you know, the majority of the world as no pointers.

Is there an aspect of persuasion in your work, [00:06:00] or do you think you're sort of more skewed towards satisfying someone more familiar with 

Rebel: bitcoin? I think I'd like to try and challenge people full stop with my art. I think that whether you're a Bitcoin or not, In even previous works prior to Bitcoin as well.

It's all about challenging and I, I, that's what hopefully all good artists do is actually challenge the viewer and move you inside some kind of emotion. So with some of the pieces that, that I've done there have been lots of questions. There have been lots of, let's say feedback I think is a nice word, way to way to describe it.

Some people very happy with pieces, but ultimately leads to a conversation around. What the piece is, and, and then it has several levels, and I think really good art has numerous levels. So I take, I'm not saying my piece is, is great art. I, this is what I aspire to be, but different levels. So taking that piece on first glance you expect Jesus on the cross, but you've got.

The anonymous mask on there and, and a [00:07:00] lot of letters that are doled on, on the cross, et cetera. So maybe there's an no coin and you look at that and you think, what, what is going on? And then that kind of drags in the conversation. But then as a, as a Bitcoin or kind of a, a beginner level Bitcoin, you begin to see some of the symbolism that's there.

So for instance, the genesis block, the fact that is upside down and as as you go, you know, deeper and deeper. Then as you look at. As a bitcoiny perhaps, and this is one of the key things, I think you've been grappling with it a bit as well, and this, this podcast is the kind of the spirituality behind Bitcoin.

Is it, is it religion? Is it our religion? I mean, something definitely as an artist, I, and as a Bitcoin I've been grappling with and I find it incredibly interesting challenge. It's got all the hallmarks of a religion. I mean, the way I've looked at it is that God is nature. In my opinion, nature is math.

Math is [00:08:00] Bitcoin. I mean, you can look at it in terms of a mathematical equation there, but even from a societal level. As well. You've got what you know, let's take Christianity as an example. So we've got iconography that, we've got that in both Bitcoin and Christianity. We've got places of worship which, you know, dotted all around the world.

We have local Bitcoin meetups as kind of the. If you want to look at them, the low level churches, and we have the pilgrimages all the way to the kind of the Bitcoin conferences and, and El Salvador, if you wanna look at it in those terms. The, the Promised Land. We also have leaders within the space and, and, and savior that kind of disappeared at a time in order for us to save ourselves so, It's really, really compelling.

There's loads of other arguments as well, but as a Bitcoin then that that kind of steers you in in your brain and you, you start [00:09:00] thinking, you know, then that's the question I posed with that piece is Bitcoin, a religion and hopefully, and it has stoked a lot of debate and it's very, very interesting the responses.

Clay: Yeah, and I think for those who are devout to keep it in that parlance, this is something that would go on their wall, you know, a, a kind of the crucifix of sorts, a Bitcoin crucifix. It's interesting too, because I get that that something, any faith. Will inspire all kinds of art, and certainly Christianity has done that from cathedrals to pietas.

We talk about Bitcoin too. We also, we, we equate it with fire or the printing press, and those didn't necessarily, I. You know, I don't think fire wasn't the stuff of the muses, the printing press gave voice to lots of people and certainly, you know, eventually novels and the rest of it emerged from that tech.

It's really is in a funny place Bitcoin because [00:10:00] it's, it is a religion, it is a, a Messianic technology. Like Eric Cason would argue, and it's this. Pivot for humanity to flourish anew. And so you are making works of art that seem to be right at that place where sort of, I think all of these Bitcoin artists are recognizing a moment to kind of rekindle humanity's creative juices.

Rebel: I completely agree. I think that's the most exciting thing about being a Bitcoin artist right now. I don't believe there's any other art form out there that. Is right on the cutting edge and right at the heart of of a, of, kind of a, I suppose, a revolution, a renaissance as, as you know, we, we often call it.

And to be part of that and part of that community as well, and creating something that I believe has value a [00:11:00] lot of value for humanity in the future. I know that sounds kind of grandiose coming from that, but, but hey, I think this is I once in the generational, well, even more than that, technology has may been made available to us as humans.

And why would you not be part of, of this incredible time and using whatever skills that you may have in order to propagate this incredible. Message. I can't see it the other way. A lot of people, you know, kind of, kind of see it. Why would you be part of Bitcoin? And my argument is, why wouldn't you be part of Bitcoin?

Because it's it's incredible. 

Clay: I think too, you had mentioned earlier that the artists that we talk about hundreds of years later, challenge convention. There's something inherent, it's almost like a pass. You get to be the weird one in school cuz you're the artist. You know? I had my, my combat boots and my bad haircut.

So in that space, that little bit of [00:12:00] wiggle room and freedom or dismissal then gives you. An opportunity to kind of hone your craft and bring your, and collect your voice and, and jam it into the world, which is nice. It's almost like they, they should have figured this out by now, that the artists lead the charge.

Rebel: Yeah. I think every artist deep down is a coiner that's waiting to get out. They are the misfits, you know, the ungovernable, the people that did things differently. That's why some of the, the work that you are doing now with your podcast and, and previously some of the work I've done to try and give voice to some of the artists as well, I think is really important to try and encourage as many artists as we possibly can.

To this new art form because there is a really untapped resource there. And as you've said, the artists do lead the revolution in society. You know, they are the outcast, but ultimately they're the ones that. Most of the time are proven right. Given enough [00:13:00] time. So, you know, we, we talked like Michelangelo and, you know, Leonardo da Vinci and some of the other great artists there.

Then, you know, when, when Leonardo Da Vinci was looking at flying machine, expect, they thought he was a bit crazy in it. But here we are now with, with our flying machines all the time. Yeah, exactly. 

Clay: Everyone's got a drone. Yeah, no personal drones. Go figure. I think while there is a. That aspect of pushing the culture forward, maybe challenging convention.

It also has to somehow be wrapped in aesthetics and things that are deeply where you really violate at your peril. Mm-hmm. As an artist, it's an interesting balance, right? You make, you can go make ugly art, but if it isn't luring us in for some aesthetic reason. It might just as quickly be ignored or dismissed.

And I wonder for you, what is the role that aesthetics and those harmonies, what do they play for you? Where do [00:14:00] they fit? 

Rebel: That's a really interesting question. I think in terms of pictures or images, I think our role as artists to start with is to, you know, we've got. Amazing writers and talkers in, in the space that can have a thousand, 2000 beautiful words.

But I think it's our role as artists to provide the other ways that we process information because not all human beings are readers. Not all, we don't all pro process the ways the same. Information in the same way. So, and also they, you know, the old adage of a picture paints a thousand words, you know, and definitely spring to mind there.

So I think in terms of the, the aspect we are, It's almost the, the graphical user interface of, of the Bitcoin time chain, if you wanna look at it like that. We are translating this code into this, this beautiful imagery as Bitcoin [00:15:00] artists and presenting it to the world. And, and I think that's the, the key there is that as Bitcoiners, you know, we are humble.

We are trying to present this incredible thing. That has the ability to change mankind. So if we're gonna do that, it's really precious. It's, it's, it's almost like we've been given this, so how are we gonna go into treat it? And the, you know, the develop Bitcoin is Want only, only the best aesthetics, again, goes back to the kind of the values that are in Bitcoin, isn't it?

We don't want this throwaway thing. This is not a technology that will go away anytime soon as the technology for the ages. So we want art for the ages. This is the reason that I only create Bitcoin art. I didn't create art for any other. Any other chains or coins because, and I've had plenty of opportunities and, and people have asked me very politely about it, and I've also turned them down very politely as well.

Because it's not something that we, we believe in, in as Bitcoin as I think it's, it's about getting credible aesthetics, pieces, [00:16:00] visuals that will last. A long, long time, way after I'm gone, you know, planting those trees, they'll never sit under or experience the shade under, I think. So that, that's where I'm at in, in my belief in, in Bitcoin art and as a, as a coiner as well.

Clay: Beautifully said. I really liked that idea of the graphical user interface, right? Something that sometimes Bitcoin could use, but we're doing it out in the world, whereas a touchpoint for a no coiner or to encourage somebody who's already out there to kind of just their, we're signposts of validating people's beliefs and their, you know, confirming their beliefs of sorts to keep it in a Bitcoin vernacular.

Rolling back though. What was going on there In block 5 8 5 0 0 7. That was about four years ago. Yeah, it was actually, it was July 11th, 2019. 

Rebel: Yeah, it was it was a, a long time [00:17:00] ago. It seems like a long time ago now. A lifetime ago. I was at a protest, to be perfectly frank. I was at a. A protest in, in my local city, and I was there with I've just met a friend who was into Bitcoin and I'd had the touch points before that period.

So I think actually prior to that I I tried, tried mining back in 2014 just for fun. Completely forgotten. Forgot the key phrases and so that's long gone. I tried it, thought well, that's cool. And then I was at this protest and I remember as I was walking and marching I thought he explained a little bit more around Bitcoin.

It really clicked for me. I think it was for me. Then went away and looked at that ultimate. Bitcoin is the ultimate form of protest. And you can hit people. You do need to have the societal level of change. And that's important. People coming together in order to affect change, but [00:18:00] also this incredible deep kind of decentralized effort where you're hitting the banks and the state where it really hurts, which is their pockets.

So if you've got this kind of piner attack, if you wanna look at it around that, around. What's going on with the state, the banks and, and how it, how we all run, I think is an incredibly powerful combination. So it's a centralized and a decentralized kind of effort. That's from that moment on there, I actually I went, I went home and.

And I started looking at it and, and one of the first pieces that I made was the, the mini tar, which is kind of the bridge from my street art kind of career, if you want to look at it like that, into kind of the more the Bitcoin art is. So that's kind of where that imagery came from. You know, just its lit.

Bitcoin lighting the fire building a new, so to speak. So Yeah, that's what happened back in, [00:19:00] in block five, 500,000 or so. 

Clay: So, yeah. I was using the time chain calendar to Yes. Good. What date it was. So you had been a Creative street artist, you had the chops, so to speak, and then found your focus, and funny enough, it lit a fire under you.

Rebel: Yeah, it did. It's it's that period. I dunno about, you know, yourself, I think you were 2017. Is that correct, Claire? Yeah, that is. Here we go. Just a fan of the show. Maybe. What can I say? You know, just thank you. Just a so it 2017, so I dunno about you, Bruce. Is is an incredibly exciting period in my life.

Where my eyes were completely opened to this new world, and every day was a learning experience. And every day my mind was blown. And it, I just, I look back at that time with the kind of the naivety of, of Bitcoin youth, you know, and not that I stop learning now, and not that I think I'm a Bitcoin [00:20:00] master, I don't, very few of those exist if they do exist.

But it's that time that, that changing period where your, your brain just gets. Completely blown by what's going on and you realize it for the first time, the kind of the orange pill moment if you want. It's incredibly exciting.

Clay: It is exciting and I don't know about if you were as sort of indoctrinated in sort of leftist learnings in the art schools and stuff.

It was a real uncovering and twisting to be orange peeled. It ran so counter, but it also perhaps too, I was of an age where I could see all my friends around me calcifying in their ideas, and Bitcoin just set me free. In a whole new world of ideas that allowed me to let go of previous ideas. So I'm very thankful for that.

And, and it was in the same time that you were, you two were in the throes of it. 

Rebel: Yeah. And it, yeah, it's great. I think maybe that's one of the reasons [00:21:00] why the creatives are in that head space and having to kind of wrestle with that and perhaps challenge some of the ideas that they have. Maybe that they find it difficult personally.

I've had a couple of my projects that haven't come to fruition been thrown out of galleries and spaces because they're Bitcoin projects and people have actually been running scared that they don't want to be seen as. Crypto advocates, but obviously I, I'm, I'm there saying it's not crypto, it's Bitcoin and it is, it's a really, really tough conversation to have in, in, you know, in the space of 10 minutes or so.

But yeah, I've had some pieces thrown out. Some projects, public projects, completely axed right at the last minute because of. It being Bitcoin. So it is still a big challenge. And then one of the projects was raising money for charity, which we did in the end. I had to literally put the art piece on the side of my house.

That was the only [00:22:00] place that I could put it around my town and we raised 2000 for charity and big shout out to my fellow artists there, Mr. Hansel Taki and, and a few others as well that submitted I was even then the charities didn't want to accept Bitcoin or, you know, or even cash from Bitcoin.

So it's it was great. It was humbling experience. And it just, it reminded me that we still have a long way to go, but I wouldn't have done it any differently. And I'm glad I stepped to what I'm doing and I'll keep doing it until people, till people listen. 

Clay: Yeah. And, and on your website, you only accept Bitcoin for your artwork and you try and spend Bitcoin to make your artwork.

You really are building the circular economy one piece at a time.

Rebel: Yeah, it's very important. I think people have to, they have to. Feel Bitcoin, they have to understand it by not as a concept from a white paper, which is great and, you know, [00:23:00] incredible piece of work, but it, it doesn't mean much to the average person.

You know, you need to actually ha take Bitcoin out in the wild. I was very fortunate of. Off the back of the I believe that, I'm just finishing up now. Actually, so we're on number five now, 21. So that's at least, was that 14 weeks? Something like that of creative output that through the process I helped my collector.

With setting up a lightning node and, and using lightning for the first time. And that was an incredible experience. Again, harking back to the kind of days I was going, oh, this is really exciting. This is great. I'm really happy to help there and and having a relationship as well. I think that's another thing that's really.

I dunno whether, whether, whether you experience it with your, your Hollywood background, but, but sometimes when you're perhaps mass reducing pieces, you lose the relationship between the collector and the artist. And I think that's something, again, the Renaissance did incredibly well and obviously you have patrons, et cetera, and none [00:24:00] of that reason.

But even just having relationships between me and my collectors, I really, really value that. And that's something. If you wanna look at it peer to peer, you know, in Bitcoin where we can kind of get together and, and transact more than just Bitcoin in that space. So I think it's really important that we do have this economy where people are spending Bitcoin as well as earning Bitcoin, and it just begins the cycle.

Don't get me wrong, there's gonna be a lot of hards out there right now. We're still in the hodel phase, but it's really, it's good to, to actually get Bitcoin working. 

Clay: It makes it so much more real. And, and it demystifies it quite a bit actually, to just sort of. Spend it, spend and replace whatever it is you wanna do.

I think it's a healthy part of the process of being a coiner and understanding the technology because it's all and good to sequester your seed phrase and huddle. But it's, it's a ton more fun to keep it moving. So I get it. And I admire that. I was at the, this spa in Brooklyn that heats their water.

With Bitcoin mining [00:25:00] rigs. Wow, amazing. Yeah. And of course I had to pay in Bitcoin. They threw me a 10% discount, which was nice too. Oh, it was amazing. You mentioned like, so you're, you as a creator are creating of your, you know, the muses are speaking to you and you're making, so my work tends to be, I have to photograph somebody.

Ideally I'm photographing another person. And that to me, that conversation is the one I truly value. I don't overly concern myself with. How the world sees it. You know, I like, I kind of use photography as a catalyst for conversation and understanding and engaging the world, whereas you've got the other way where you've been inspired by Bitcoin and you're putting it out into the world, and then that's how you build those relationships afterwards with the existing piece.

Which I think is really cool and perhaps longer lasting. Mine is a fleeting engagement. Yours goes on to keep talking to audiences and keeps living in a place where it can be interpreted in a perfect world for centuries. 

Rebel: So, [00:26:00] Ideally, yes. And even just prior to this recording, I was, I was on chatting to some of the collectors as well.

So I do it, it's not just with me. I, I, I see it's, it's not just a, a piece and then you're done. It's more than that. It is a open conversation and as Bitcoiners, you know, we are, and we went few and far between. We'll grow, you know so it's, it's, it's important that, you know we stick together and it's a great community to be part of.

It's one of the most exciting and wholesome community. Some of the, the best friends I have in arts now and, and not in arts, some of collectors are just wonderful people that I've become, some of my closest friends. So Yeah.

Clay: Ah, beautiful. I like that idea cuz you can, you used to go into bank lobbies and there'd be some Picasso or whatever, but it was sterile and for sure that no one at Chase Bank knew the new Picasso.

And Picasso didn't really care. I like the idea that the artists are just percolating throughout the [00:27:00] community and, and even just hearing a conversation the other day from Citadel Dispatch, they were just having a party rip and talking about curating art. In Bitcoin Park. It was just so real. It was so tactile and refreshing to think, well, I know they're gonna go do their golf outings and the rest of it, pretend they're bankers.

They were all so deeply concerned with the art on their walls and it was integrating into the experience of Bitcoin Park. I thought that 

Rebel: was really great. It's really good that I think, and Bitcoin Park is Got a great gallery there around that area. I know there's some of the collections, it's weird.

It's almost like the, the Bitcoin Louvre in, in, in a way sort of the pieces they got there are unreal. And, but I think that's what we need to, to be, I think all, you know, bankers and. States, people have had this jargon and this barrier that, you know, they've f forcibly put between the people and, and their money and, and governance, et cetera.

And Bitcoin tears down that it makes it more transparent, it makes it [00:28:00] more accessible for people. And that's really important. And that should also percolate in the art. I mean, that's, if we are to be true Bitcoin artists, then surely we have to take Bitcoin values in our art to be taken seriously. I, I dunno what, what you think about that.

Clay: I would agree. And it, all of this talks gets me thinking about conversations you must have had around the fact when you say you're a Bitcoin artist, I, I said that to a, a traditional painter the other day and he's like, what do you paint money?

Paint about getting rich? And I'm like, okay, how am I gonna break this down? How do you break it down to people? Yeah. It's a hard one cuz, and how do you do it? I mean, you've, you've probably had some experience, right? But because for most of the world, Bitcoin is just a monetary technology at best. And now you're doing art around this.

What, what are you doing? [00:29:00] 

Rebel: I do ask myself that question sometimes, clay. 

Clay: Oh, okay. All right. Fair 

Rebel: enough. Yeah. No, no. I, I, I agree. I, I, I do. Sometimes, sometimes I think every Bitcoin has that check, don't they? Where they go. Am I crazy? Is, is this crazy how I do, what, what am I doing here? But it's quickly kind of I don't know.

I think once the, the fundamentals of Bitcoin haven't changed, this is the thing. I think it's a, a value set that I personally align to. Therefore, that's why I believe in it so much. I think it's, without saying it too cheesy, kind of the Bitcoin values flow within me or, or what I do in everyday life.

So it's, it's actually quite, feels quite easy to kind of put that into, well, it's not easy to put into work, to, to get the message across sometimes because as you say, it's a complex subject, but you can maybe [00:30:00] take bits of it and, and, and try to break it down to people, but it's more than just It's a way of living and a way of operating and a way of doing things.

And I think if you're doing that as an artist, that's why I think all art will hopefully become Bitcoin art in the end because it's a great way of being. And the benefits to the arts, it will be massive if it's can be adopted on a, on a greater scale. But as we've just gotta lead the way. I mean, the old Matt Dell.

Stay humble, stack at, stay humble, make Bitcoin art. And that's, that's pretty much I'll keep doing it even when sometimes, you know, even when you are offered perhaps some economic incentives to make art that isn't on Bitcoin. You know, you've gotta try and stay true to your cause and true to what you believe in.

And it's a, it is a much better way of living than it's tough. I'm, and, and don't get me wrong, Some, you know, the artists, [00:31:00] sometimes you have to pay the bills. That's, that's a reality for some people. But you know, if you can try and stay true to your values and my values are around Bitcoin, then it's a very life affirming place to be.

Yeah. You're 

Clay: living it and then you're gonna make it both the art and probably as a, to see the next day make some more. Yeah. Yes. And I do think artists in general, you know, we're tough on ourselves. We're constantly doubting. We're forging new ground, usually trying to find our voices with untested materials, untested ideas.

It was part of why I think. Bitcoin entered my brain more easily than some, right? I was accustomed to being challenged by ideas cuz that's what art had been doing and art history had been doing for centuries as I understood it, that I was always trying to push myself into a new territory. And then here comes this, this crazy concept Bitcoin and my brain was already [00:32:00] primed to be.

Uncomfortable. The avant-garde is an uncomfortable place to both create and to even potentially see and receive. But with time and nurturing, you kind of get better at it. You almost crave it. Like, let's keep smashing the next, what's the next boundary we get to smash? And I think Bitcoin does that beautifully.

And then if we can meld that with art, That does that. Now we're onto something now we're snowballing. 

Rebel: I agree. It is, it's about breaking these, these barriers down that, you know, these preconceptions that we have and challenging and pushing yourself as an individual as well. I think that's really important.

I know that just when I'm making, making the art, every piece I make is not even, perhaps not more complex than the last one that has a different technique. That, again, is challenging to me as a person. So, Spray paint was the first one that was relatively, you know, d doing it on a base of money and, and, and, and, and [00:33:00] kind of challenging and putting different colors, et cetera.

That was the first stage. Then there was the believe piece, which used 3D printing in involved there, and, and a little bit of electronics in there in terms of the light, the piece after that. So with Veolias, that piece is actually linked up to the Bitcoin time chain in real time. And how having and reaching out to the community to help, don't get me wrong, I'm just learned programming or I think I've got some help along the way of needs some help Clay so much.

That's really important as well. But there's again, great community there, but it's, it's about pushing constantly, pushing the boundaries, pushing yourself, seeing more. And, and again, that goes out to, in terms of. Bitcoin on the kind of, if you wanna look it on the macro scale, what, you know, challenging ideas, constantly question your whole, the whole thing, you know?

Don't trust, verify. It's, it's, it is all encompassing. I, I dunno how to, I dunno how to put it. It's just, Yeah. I think 

Clay: in that space it got me thinking that the same [00:34:00] way Bitcoin exists in adversarial environments, the muses thrive in adverse environments. And so if you're challenging yourself, if you are presenting something difficult, then the muses will rise up.

They like it when it's being attacked or or being challenged. And Bitcoin is similar? Yeah, 

Rebel: very much so. Not only is it stoking the. Economic flames you know, but it's also very much, very, very much the stokes, you know, I think about Bitcoin a lot. I'm sure you think about Bitcoin a lot as well. And, and most people that are listening to this podcast are thinking about Bitcoin an awful lot as well.

And it does create that. It, it stirs something up inside you. And if everything is, I dunno, as a, as an artist or as a person, if, if everything is, is too calm within me, that's just, just too boring. I, I can't deal with, with that. I just, I have to have a, a get up and go. And I think Bitcoin provides that. And it provides, as you say, that, that fire, that really then inspires me then to actually create [00:35:00] something greater than myself.

And I think that's kind of where Bitcoin, Bitcoin is for me. 

Clay: It really is a fascinating thing and it's, you know, I say this to my wife a lot. Once you see Bitcoin, you don't unsee it. And so with time legions and legions of folks who've seen it will be coming over as we slowly move towards hyper Bitcoin ization or whatever.

Or if it's just a slow march for over the centuries, I don't know. But it's really nice to know that the walls of those who've seen it, And and the sculpture gardens 

Rebel: and things 

Clay: will be, there will be little markers, just like any other art history. The art reflects the transformations of culture. And so here we are again.

Yes, Renaissance 2.0 for now as a working title. I think the impressionist got kind of named early, but I don't, but I'm not sure they embraced it, [00:36:00] so, 

Rebel: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe that's, that's weird, isn't it? To think that, you know, this period in history is gonna be named after something after we're gone, but at the same time, very cool.

I dunno about you, but that's, that's why I, I think you're a very busy person. You have a, a very demanding job from, from what I can tell. Well, not 

Clay: right now, cuz there's a writer strike. 

Rebel: Okay. But other that, other than the writer strike, you know obviously. Time is the most precious thing. Pr, precious, anything commodity, whatever in the world and how you choose it is to use it, is the most important thing.

And that, that, that's a lens. Again, bi Bitcoin's provided me with. But you've, you've obviously chose to get on this podcast to take some time away from your family, from, from your work because you see value in, in doing this. And, and just in the same way, I see value in, in doing this. And I think it's the most valuable thing we can do.

At the moment with, with our time [00:37:00] balancing everything active, of course, is to kind of dedicate ourselves to. This propagation of Renaissance, we'll call it Renaissance 2.0 for the moment, clay. Yeah. Or the good 

Clay: news. Yeah. To use another metaphor, right? Yeah. We are, yeah. And I do hope that the arts too will sort of really find their place maybe higher, not just at the, not just at the patron, you know, of the Medici patron style, but will be deeply integrated as creativity finds itself higher in the pyramid.

More like a Burning Man future, you know, where creativity and generosity at the top of a pyramid, while it was burning man, it rang like we could do that in the real, the default world too. And I think Bitcoin helps creativity and generosity rise up away from some of the other priorities that culture seems to privilege right now.

Rebel: I think it does. I think the, the whole thing around Bitcoin as well is it was a conversation I had with Dennis. Sorry, Dennis, that's the Welch way of pronouncing your [00:38:00] sur name. It's, it's k o c h I think it's German. Originally in Pep Bernardo. I had on, on the the art world, which was a fascinating deep dive for me from someone who comes from outside that traditional art world and they're looking in on it as well.

And I think if artists were actually paid in Bitcoin, that means the, that value appreciates over time, which means that you'll actually have more time to actually dedicate to your craft and therefore you become more valuable over time because you're creating such great pieces. So that, that's the kind of the, the way I.

I look at it in, in terms of that's how, if you know, as soon as an artist gets onto Bitcoin, their time becomes a lot more valuable. Both in terms of storage and actually in terms of owning it. So, and then the artistry in general is raised up. So yeah, I think, I dunno, that's a concept I've been playing with in my brain as [00:39:00] well.

I think, you know, it's the kind of the nuts and bolts approach to how to orange pill and artist and make them appreciate that they don't have to work as a slave churning out. Not great pieces that they're perhaps not proud of, and they can work towards a, an art form of pushing the art form forward.

That's where Bitcoin, I think works as, as a mechanism. I also think 

Clay: it'll inspire folks who didn't think they could be creative or could find that voice legitimately. And so we'll see. We'll see art coming from the fringes that will move us equally and not just rely on. You know, the art school graduates, but if I'm reading it right, you were a street artist and now you've found yourself making very different sculptural, engaging textured pieces that are way outside of your youthful 

Rebel: wheelhouse.

Definitely. I, I, I would encourage anyone who's listening to this if you're not an artist or you don't think yourself as an artist, cuz some days I don't think I'm an artist, you know, [00:40:00] I think we all kind of get the imposter syndrome sometimes, but it's, it's just go out and create. And, you know, and go out and enjoy it and then and draw ideas around and make something crazy.

So, And then, you know, if it's related to Bitcoin, great. You know, and then try and just put it online. Try and sell it, see how it goes. Improve, improve, improve. It's that process that goes. I definitely, at the start of my journey right now, I think I've got lots of improvements to do in terms of my creative work and output.

And, but it's a great, what a fantastic adventure I've got ahead of me, clay, you know, and, and any artist in the space has gone incredible. Journey ahead of them, of discovery and, and, and just embracing this new age, you know, and it's great. It's very humbled and privileged to be here at, at the start.

You know, I'm humbled and privileged to be on the, on your show as well. It's great to, to be talking about it. I mean And also, you know, the community and, and the collectors that are around supporting it as well. So it's, it's, yeah, please, [00:41:00] if you are listening now and, and you're kind of an artist and you maybe do whatever it might be, could be anything.

It could paper mache models. I'm just thinking random, you know, s randoms could be, you know, make, make stuff out, pipe cleaners it. I don't really, you know, any, any kind of art form have a think about it and, and start making some Bitcoin art or Bitcoin inspired art. I just realized 

Clay: every third grader.

Making his or her volcano with the baking soda is now a Bitcoin bond holder. I think it's like, 

Rebel: that'd be amazing. I love that. That would be absolutely incredible. I, I, I did think of an idea actually that was actually tying. That type of model. And then as soon as the, the halving went off, then you'd have a digital switch that would actually boring the beans slowly, slowly.

And it would be, you know, maybe, maybe it could be, there is a halving party, you know, maybe the, we, it could be the centerpiece. Who knows? You know, I 

Clay: love it. It could just be like a little kit, you know, like when you go [00:42:00] to the. Nowadays, no one, no one can do it from scratch. So there's the readymade volcano kit, and it could be the having kit and you just bring it to the party and you guy, everyone sits around the table and dumps in the, the Coca-Cola and 

Rebel: Mentos Mentos combo.

Yeah. Just, just sits there and waits and watches it. 

Clay: Look at that. We're we're, this is gonna be our CoLab down the 

Rebel: line. Oh, this is it, clay. I'm well up for it. Let's let's get it, let's get it booked in now. We've got just just under a year two. Too 

Clay: good, too good. Well, look, my brother, this, this is really sweet.

I really enjoyed the way we could ramble into things that I think are slightly esoteric at times. But you can gauge the sincerity that both of us are wrestling with big ideas around a big technology that is deeply inspiring and has inspired us. And I, and I hope people find value in, in hearing us riff.

Rebel: I hope so too. And if not, I find value in it as well. Just, just my voice in my opinion. [00:43:00] Sometimes you just need to Just needs to go on record, you know? Just you need to hear yourself sometimes say these things, you know, for 

Clay: sure I, for, and, you know, artists, do we tend to live in doubt? And not just visual artists all, you know, actors for chief among them, perhaps, but I, I think it's important that we constantly keep these conversations alive and, and the banter and the back and forth will hone our ideas.

Rebel: I agree. It's, it's together, together. We're stronger, you know, and together we we're creating this incredible future and, and I really appreciate you taking the time out to come and talk to me today. Oh, rebel. It 

Clay: was a treat and I look forward to you know, shaking your hand in person one day somewhere.

That'd be 

Rebel: great at the halving party when we set the volcano off. That's 

Clay: right. I'll pour in the Coke. You get the Mentos, it's gonna be on. There you have it. Be sure to follow Rebel Money, art, and to share rate and subscribe to this podcast. Apparently that helps. But God knows the algorithms are an elusive lot.

I appreciate any support you can show me. While [00:44:00] it's a little late for this one, one of the best ways is to use a podcasting 2.0 app like Fountain or Breeze. I'm all about the value for value model. So much so that if I can stay sponsor free, I will. Thanks to my brother for the music to you for listening and to revel for sharing his time, energy, and insights with the Bitcoin Muse Onward.