WEBVTT 00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:06.193 Okay, ready, set. Hey, Sid. Hey, Dad. Welcome to episode two of Murder on the Couch. 00:00:06.777 --> 00:00:10.897 Welcome back. Have you been mobbed by adoring fans when you've been out in public? 00:00:10.897 --> 00:00:12.090 I can't even go outside. 00:00:12.217 --> 00:00:15.257 Really? There's paparazzi. I know. 00:00:15.645 --> 00:00:19.537 It's really overwhelming. Welcome to my world. Yeah. Right? 00:00:20.318 --> 00:00:23.117 I don't know how you do it. Okay, so I have a funny therapist story to tell you. 00:00:23.417 --> 00:00:26.367 Oh, I have a story for you too. Do you really? Yeah, I almost got hit by a train. 00:00:26.577 --> 00:00:28.384 Wait, that has nothing to do with therapy. 00:00:29.086 --> 00:00:33.937 Okay. I think we need to talk about that first. It kind of freaks me out a little bit though. 00:00:33.937 --> 00:00:35.937 It was not good. Okay. 00:00:36.207 --> 00:00:41.497 So, I was going to this coffee shop the other day and all the reviews were like, oh, it's 00:00:41.497 --> 00:00:44.372 a hidden gem, you know, like hidden gems. So cute. 00:00:44.570 --> 00:00:50.457 Yeah. The maps took me directly onto a train track. Like I'm not even kidding you. And I was like, 00:00:50.457 --> 00:00:53.857 the lines started to look different than like the lines before. But in that moment I was 00:00:53.857 --> 00:00:56.417 like, well, I don't really remember what the normal lines of the road look like. Cause 00:00:56.417 --> 00:00:57.697 like, this is all I see in front of me. 00:00:57.697 --> 00:01:02.097 Were the lines you were now seeing like crisscrossed with wooden panels on them? 00:01:02.097 --> 00:01:06.085 Well, yes, but there was like cement. It was confusing. That's called a train tracking. 00:01:06.157 --> 00:01:10.417 And so then like I look up and there was like genuinely a train in front of me. 00:01:10.417 --> 00:01:12.360 Okay. And like I don't even... 00:01:12.594 --> 00:01:16.105 In that moment, I was like actually just laughing because it was like, what is going on? 00:01:16.213 --> 00:01:18.895 And then I like turned to the right and I'm not kidding you. 00:01:19.174 --> 00:01:23.405 I literally had to dodge like the sticks coming down. Oh. 00:01:22.919 --> 00:01:30.517 Okay, I'm glad that you feel safe enough to tell me that story, but that sounds like a lot. That was good. 00:01:30.697 --> 00:01:33.983 It was good? It was fun. Did you end up making it to the coffee shop? 00:01:34.209 --> 00:01:39.169 No. Really? No, I got there and then it was like, I don't know, I was just, 00:01:39.169 --> 00:01:41.969 I wanted to go to one that I'd already been to before. Okay. 00:01:42.751 --> 00:01:47.820 That I can't really explain to you. No, I didn't. I at least wanted to hear that. And you know what? It was amazing. 00:01:48.054 --> 00:01:49.569 No, it's still never been. Okay. 00:01:49.629 --> 00:01:54.349 Real hidden gem, that one. I would highly recommend if you want to go try that out again, that maybe have a friend drive. 00:01:54.349 --> 00:01:55.841 Yeah, I think so. 00:01:56.363 --> 00:02:01.764 Right? Okay. I want to say then, you know, speaking of friends, today's thing has something to do with a friend, but it kind of doesn't. No. 00:02:01.944 --> 00:02:05.349 But here's why I think that what we're... Thank you for telling me that, by the way. 00:02:05.716 --> 00:02:11.849 You're welcome. Yeah. Just because I often talk... Here's where the... We haven't even talked about the case yet, 00:02:12.144 --> 00:02:19.349 but I do tell people that it means you have a good relationship with your kids if they can tell you insane things like that. 00:02:19.349 --> 00:02:22.289 Because you know, I want to say, Sid, you could have gotten yourself killed 00:02:22.289 --> 00:02:23.730 and you shouldn't, but that's a given. 00:02:23.969 --> 00:02:28.009 I'm aware of that part. Exactly, so then I'm grateful that you feel like you can tell me. 00:02:28.009 --> 00:02:28.816 Right, does that make sense? 00:02:28.969 --> 00:02:33.049 Yeah, we got a good bond. We have a good bond, exactly. I don't know if I've told you this, 00:02:33.497 --> 00:02:36.972 but not too long ago, your brother said, oh gosh, guys, I forgot to tell you, 00:02:37.289 --> 00:02:39.142 I left the burner on the stove all day. 00:02:39.529 --> 00:02:43.289 And I just thought that really was kind of a similar thing where I thought, oh, I would have never 00:02:43.289 --> 00:02:45.049 told my parents anything. 00:02:45.049 --> 00:02:47.609 Like you guys are still alive, okay, good. Right, exactly, right? 00:02:47.609 --> 00:02:50.849 So, and I just, I thought, oh, cool, bro. Like, thanks for telling me. 00:02:50.849 --> 00:02:53.089 I mean, cause I've done that too. So then I'm glad that you could tell me 00:02:53.089 --> 00:02:54.709 that you ran onto the train tracks. 00:02:54.709 --> 00:02:59.091 But just, I would, I feel as if it would not be a good thing to do it again. 00:02:59.769 --> 00:03:03.369 Yes, thank you. I'm very much aware of that. There we go. 00:03:03.369 --> 00:03:05.569 I don't plan on playing on the train tracks in my free time. 00:03:05.569 --> 00:03:08.769 Okay, good. That's a good moment. But what was your therapy? 00:03:08.769 --> 00:03:13.449 Okay, so when, this is gonna sound a little bit, I don't, I hope it doesn't sound egotistical, 00:03:13.449 --> 00:03:15.340 but I've been a therapist for a long time. 00:03:15.769 --> 00:03:18.301 Actually, how old are you? I know this, 21. 00:03:19.121 --> 00:03:24.091 I was about to say I've been a therapist longer than you've been alive, but I haven't. 00:03:24.091 --> 00:03:26.811 So I think I've been a therapist 16, 17 years. 00:03:26.935 --> 00:03:29.511 And when you start out as a therapist, you're just trying to get your hours. 00:03:29.644 --> 00:03:31.931 You have to get your college degree and you have to get your master's degree and then 00:03:31.931 --> 00:03:33.785 you have to get 3000 hours as an intern. 00:03:34.251 --> 00:03:35.685 So you're just taking anybody that will come in. 00:03:36.291 --> 00:03:42.725 And so then you always have to go over all these things. Welcome to therapy and we have confidentiality except for certain situations. 00:03:43.331 --> 00:03:45.891 And the reason I'm setting this up is I've been fortunate enough to be in a position 00:03:45.891 --> 00:03:48.657 now where I can be a little more picky, a little more choosy with my clientele. 00:03:49.071 --> 00:03:54.991 So I often don't get new clients. So it's funny because now when I get one, I'm almost giddy and I feel bad because nobody 00:03:54.991 --> 00:03:58.190 comes into therapy just to pay somebody to say, hey, everything's great. 00:03:58.751 --> 00:04:01.631 But I'm sitting there going, it's so exciting to see you, you know, because I'm meeting 00:04:01.631 --> 00:04:04.942 this new person that I almost forget to go over the basics. 00:04:05.311 --> 00:04:10.686 And what you have to talk about is that everything you say to a therapist is confidential unless 00:04:11.073 --> 00:04:17.151 they tell you that they are going to hurt themselves or, and here's where the like, 00:04:17.151 --> 00:04:18.751 the sound effects, right? 00:04:18.751 --> 00:04:23.551 Or if you are going to help or hurt other people and so then, and then that gets really 00:04:23.551 --> 00:04:27.191 specific. So, if somebody says, you know, if somebody says, man, and I just want to go home and 00:04:27.191 --> 00:04:30.842 just, you know, murder my husband, they'll usually joke and say, I mean, not really. 00:04:31.431 --> 00:04:36.711 And I'll say, oh, okay, good. But I really don't think they're going to, but you have to, you have this thing and as 00:04:36.711 --> 00:04:38.359 a therapist called duty to warn. 00:04:38.719 --> 00:04:43.231 So if this, like in this hypothetical situation, if the woman said, no, I'm literally gonna go home 00:04:43.231 --> 00:04:47.751 and murder my husband. I've got the gun in the trunk of my car and he gets home about 6.30. 00:04:47.751 --> 00:04:49.719 I've been making sure that he's pretty consistent with that. 00:04:50.191 --> 00:04:52.807 The kids are out at their grandmother's house. So, oh, I'm totally gonna do it. 00:04:53.275 --> 00:04:54.203 Then guess what I have to do. 00:04:55.436 --> 00:04:59.686 Warn him. Yeah. Yeah, which then it feels a little weird because it's like now I'm breaking confidentiality 00:04:59.686 --> 00:05:05.326 And what if she's only kidding around or you know, and it's kind of an insane judgment call for you to have to yeah 00:05:05.326 --> 00:05:11.246 I'm sure yeah, it's like are they joking? Are they mentally ill? Are they? Yeah a murderer totally 00:05:11.246 --> 00:05:14.166 And so so then I love that what we're talking about today is, 00:05:14.827 --> 00:05:20.286 It's literally because of a case that happened and it's funny because as a therapist you you talk about their 00:05:20.286 --> 00:05:25.406 Tarasoff rights or Tarasoff warning. And I've always thought that Tarasoff was just some fancy 00:05:25.406 --> 00:05:30.356 psychology word. Sounds like a computer program, right? But it turns out somebody's name. 00:05:30.572 --> 00:05:37.966 Yeah. This, this case is about Tatiana Tarasoff and she is the reason why this confidentiality 00:05:37.966 --> 00:05:44.206 thing that you're talking about was ever put into place because the system completely failed this 00:05:44.206 --> 00:05:49.806 girl, like completely failed her. It's so sad. Like so many. So this is a stalking case. Okay. 00:05:49.806 --> 00:05:55.486 What we're going to be talking about today. And it's just insane how over and over again, 00:05:55.486 --> 00:05:57.326 nobody warned this poor girl. 00:05:58.074 --> 00:06:01.566 And I want you to know, I don't know about this case. And that's what I like about the 00:06:01.566 --> 00:06:06.968 dynamic that we're doing here is that I know of it, that that is a reason why we do duty to warn. 00:06:07.337 --> 00:06:10.056 But you already told me before that it's pretty crazy, right? 00:06:10.443 --> 00:06:16.126 Yeah. Yeah, it is. So while I was researching it, it's only really well-known in like the psychology space. 00:06:16.249 --> 00:06:17.960 The actual case itself? Yeah. Yeah. 00:06:18.059 --> 00:06:23.726 And that was kind of batshit to me when I was reading more into it because it's really crazy. 00:06:23.726 --> 00:06:29.566 This guy was like an insane stalker and it reminds me a lot of... Have you seen You? 00:06:30.041 --> 00:06:35.726 Oh yeah, I have. Do you like that? Yeah. Okay. First of all, can we stop making serial killers hot? 00:06:37.086 --> 00:06:41.870 Am I right? Am I right? Is he hot? Yes, he's beautiful. He's an attractive guy. Okay. 00:06:42.014 --> 00:06:44.606 Like, why are we doing that? It's so... It's such a mind... 00:06:45.566 --> 00:06:49.166 Okay. So can I ask you on that note? Have you ever, did you watch a bunch of the things about Ted Bundy? 00:06:49.918 --> 00:06:50.446 Uh, yeah. 00:06:51.726 --> 00:06:57.486 You can't put Troy Bolton as Ted Bundy. Are you kidding me? Well, because I was going to say, they would always say Ted Bundy was so handsome. 00:06:57.486 --> 00:06:59.694 And then I would look at those pictures and I would think, was he? 00:07:00.108 --> 00:07:04.952 No, he wasn't. But Joe is on you and then Troy Bolton, High School Musical. 00:07:05.528 --> 00:07:08.766 Is that who that was? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. He's an, yeah. He's an attractive man. 00:07:08.766 --> 00:07:13.486 So, yeah. But so, so we're talking about Duty to Warn and this guy, all I know is, 00:07:13.486 --> 00:07:15.610 I think it had to do with, he was like a college student in Berkeley. 00:07:16.177 --> 00:07:20.766 And so then that's literally all I know so I'm gonna sit back today and do a lot of uh, wow 00:07:20.766 --> 00:07:22.632 And oh my gosh, you will be trusted. 00:07:22.640 --> 00:07:35.440 Music. 00:07:35.433 --> 00:07:42.163 I do want to also point out that you are actually working off of the literal court case, the 00:07:42.163 --> 00:07:44.243 court document, which I think is really cool. 00:07:44.243 --> 00:07:48.843 Yes. And I've been doing a lot of research on this and this single court case document has more 00:07:48.843 --> 00:07:53.483 details than any of the podcasts I've listened to, any of the articles I've looked into. 00:07:53.609 --> 00:07:59.123 Like this is legit and it's crazy. Well, and for anybody who doesn't really know, and we can put a link to this actually, right? 00:07:59.123 --> 00:08:00.123 Yeah, yeah. 00:08:00.123 --> 00:08:05.643 It really is the like, you know, the state of California versus the guy or whatever who got 00:08:05.643 --> 00:08:09.163 arrested for it. Hey, and while you're about to start too, the one last thing I'll say about the 00:08:09.163 --> 00:08:12.351 therapist piece because I don't think this will come into play with anything we're talking about. 00:08:12.649 --> 00:08:15.483 So, you have to tell yourself, yeah, there's three things. I'm going to break confidentiality 00:08:15.483 --> 00:08:19.403 if you're going to hurt yourself, others and then there's been a lot as the population gets older, 00:08:19.403 --> 00:08:23.323 it's old people. See, I almost have to call out or the elderly because of elderly abuse. 00:08:23.532 --> 00:08:26.683 But even the one about if you're going to harm yourself, I appreciate when you're saying earlier, 00:08:26.683 --> 00:08:32.763 It's almost like this judgment call because it's that concept where if I say to somebody have you ever thought about killing yourself? 00:08:33.345 --> 00:08:39.358 It's like the reality is I feel most everybody has had the thought, you know, but I thought every thought yeah 00:08:39.583 --> 00:08:43.913 That's what I think. Yeah, and if I tell somebody right now, oh, no, I'm sure you haven't your own brains probably like oh 00:08:44.083 --> 00:08:46.843 Well, I'm thinking about it right now. Oh my gosh What's wrong with me, right? 00:08:46.843 --> 00:08:51.043 And so even that has been interesting because early on in my career if somebody said man 00:08:51.043 --> 00:08:54.723 Sometimes I just I just don't even want to live, you know, you're kind of going. Oh crap 00:08:54.869 --> 00:08:58.563 Do I have to warn somebody? So then you talk it through more because as a therapist, you actually 00:08:58.563 --> 00:09:04.883 want a safe place for somebody to be able to say. Isn't that wild? And that's crazy thinking 00:09:04.883 --> 00:09:08.643 about it like that, because you have to make the judgment call. Am I going to? 00:09:09.192 --> 00:09:19.364 Tell somebody about this and potentially kind of put a stop in this person's recovery yeah it's honestly cuz i can remember without me i'll stay so far away from details but 00:09:19.706 --> 00:09:32.445 somebody a long time ago that i was working with and this person got really really animated they were emotionally overwhelmed in a session and they were just saying it and then i really felt like it was one of the more intense times or somebody saying she felt suicidal 00:09:32.796 --> 00:09:42.642 And so, I was saying, okay, you know what, I think this is the thing where I really need to check in with you and I might need to call somebody and he got even madder because or they got even madder, I was going to try not to point out that it was a male or female. 00:09:42.642 --> 00:09:47.842 But they got even more angry because they were saying, wait, I thought you were a safe place. 00:09:48.001 --> 00:09:59.650 And I remember I can feel that in my gut today thinking about that, but the person did not, they ended up, they were in a bad relationship and now I understand that they, you know, it's this concept where the body keeps the score with trauma. 00:09:59.965 --> 00:10:03.458 And if they didn't feel like they had an out to get out of an unhealthy relationship. 00:10:04.052 --> 00:10:08.242 The brain starts saying, OK, I've tried anxiety, I've tried depression, I've tried anger and you're 00:10:08.242 --> 00:10:12.162 still in it. What if I just throw out there under your mind? OK, how about suicide? And 00:10:12.162 --> 00:10:16.402 instead of the person going, oh, man, my brain is saying I got to get out, you know, because it 00:10:16.402 --> 00:10:20.562 doesn't even want to be to live if I'm going to be in this relationship. But then when she's saying 00:10:20.562 --> 00:10:24.172 it, then all of a sudden I'm going like, oh, I don't know, because then if I would have broken 00:10:24.562 --> 00:10:30.311 that confidentiality now I know in that case her husband would have totally used that against her 00:10:30.437 --> 00:10:35.091 for the kids and you know what I mean yeah so it's crazy it's a really fine line you have to 00:10:35.209 --> 00:10:40.722 yeah yeah so anyway so that's why I do I'm so curious about like the so there's the you know 00:10:40.722 --> 00:10:45.122 if you're gonna hurt yourself and now let's talk about if you're gonna hurt others yes okay okay 00:10:45.122 --> 00:10:52.722 so let's start off by talking about Tatiana Tarasov okay she was born on the 22nd of January 00:10:52.722 --> 00:10:58.122 1949 so this is a long time ago yeah and I'm 53 I was born in 69 she was born in 00:10:58.122 --> 00:11:04.853 49 so she would have been 73 she was born in Shanghai municipality China I 00:11:04.979 --> 00:11:05.681 Oh, I did not know that. 00:11:05.924 --> 00:11:08.724 And yeah, so she then moved to Brazil. 00:11:09.255 --> 00:11:15.584 And until she was 14, she lived in Brazil with her family. Her parents were, I think, Russian immigrants. 00:11:15.989 --> 00:11:20.391 Okay. And... Oh wait, actually, let me pull this up on our court document. Okay. 00:11:20.751 --> 00:11:29.114 So she was born to Russian immigrant parents in China. And she came to the United States with her family in 1963 when she was 14 years old. 00:11:29.294 --> 00:11:34.488 From there, she attended the Merritt College in Oakland. And she took a morning class in Berkeley. 00:11:34.632 --> 00:11:37.025 Okay, at the University of California, Berkeley, right? Yes. 00:11:37.025 --> 00:11:38.260 Which is a really smart school. 00:11:38.791 --> 00:11:42.518 Is it? Yeah, yeah, it really is. Yeah, that's part of why when I found out that this all happened there, I just, I don't. 00:11:43.085 --> 00:11:46.805 Know why, but sometimes, you know, we think these silly things where, well, wait, smart 00:11:46.805 --> 00:11:48.496 people can't be this crazy. 00:11:49.027 --> 00:11:53.006 Oh, but they are. Yeah. They are. Sometimes even more crazy. 00:11:53.231 --> 00:11:55.125 I know, right. I feel like you'd say. 00:11:55.428 --> 00:11:59.765 Yeah. Her parents were super strict. So she was growing up under a lot of that kind of pressure. 00:11:59.765 --> 00:12:04.085 Like they wouldn't let her wear makeup. They wouldn't let her hang out with all the people she wanted to. 00:12:04.085 --> 00:12:06.925 She could like only go places like with her brother and stuff. 00:12:06.925 --> 00:12:10.389 So she would sneak out of the house to put on makeup and like all that stuff. 00:12:10.485 --> 00:12:15.325 Like she was willing to be herself regardless of her parents holding her back. 00:12:15.325 --> 00:12:16.268 She had to kind of do it on her own. 00:12:16.700 --> 00:12:22.984 Yeah. So one of the activities that her parents would let her do was go to these folk dances in Berkeley. 00:12:23.605 --> 00:12:28.394 And this is where she's going to meet this stalker. Okay, what's his name? 00:12:28.725 --> 00:12:31.608 I feel like his- His name is Proshin G. Potter. 00:12:32.301 --> 00:12:37.165 Okay. And he is going to be- And Potter, I think I remember it's P-O-D-D-A-R, 00:12:37.165 --> 00:12:38.900 because I won't, not like Harry Potter. 00:12:39.701 --> 00:12:46.865 No. Okay. The opposite. Thank you. 00:12:42.483 --> 00:12:44.508 Yeah, we could call her that. I already forgot how to pronounce the other one. 00:12:44.733 --> 00:12:48.933 So Tanya's parents would let her go to these folk dances only because her brother would 00:12:48.933 --> 00:12:52.793 drive her there and her brother would drive her back, so he was with her the whole time. 00:12:52.793 --> 00:12:57.253 Her brother's name is Alex, by the way, and he'll be more pertinent to the story as we go on. 00:12:57.435 --> 00:13:03.287 So at these dances, she met Prasenjit Potter. Let's talk about him. 00:13:03.533 --> 00:13:07.933 He is actually not from America. He was from India. 00:13:07.933 --> 00:13:13.273 So he grew up in the lowest social class in India. they were known as the untouchables. 00:13:13.273 --> 00:13:19.333 Oh, wow. Yeah, so from some sources I looked at, it's very extreme, like no electricity, 00:13:19.333 --> 00:13:23.902 no running water, like that kind of situation. 00:13:24.013 --> 00:13:32.013 So it was actually, he was one of only a handful of people in the untouchables to go to an American school. 00:13:32.013 --> 00:13:35.326 Oh, that was probably a big deal. Yeah, so it was a very big deal. 00:13:35.533 --> 00:13:41.573 And it's unclear exactly why he got to, I would assume maybe he was exceptionally smart. 00:13:41.573 --> 00:13:44.453 I mean, that's what I was gonna say. I would imagine, because Berkeley is a really hard school 00:13:44.453 --> 00:13:45.750 to even get into, yeah. 00:13:46.373 --> 00:13:49.838 So it was a big deal for his family that he was getting sent over to America. 00:13:50.053 --> 00:13:57.813 I think his dad had to drop like 6,000 rupees or something to send him over and it was a very big deal. 00:13:57.813 --> 00:14:05.988 And I guess how it was like, I mean, and I don't really know but my guess was he was kind of the family's one shot 00:14:06.051 --> 00:14:08.490 at getting out of this social class. 00:14:08.773 --> 00:14:12.213 So that was a lot of pressure. Yeah, because I mean, when you're an untouchable. 00:14:13.234 --> 00:14:16.553 Like it's really hard to move up. Like I think it's basically impossible 00:14:16.553 --> 00:14:18.133 and it's hard for them to get the same 00:14:18.133 --> 00:14:22.513 like marriage rights, I guess, like job opportunities, like all that stuff. 00:14:23.011 --> 00:14:27.253 So this was a big deal. You know, when I was in the software industry before I became a therapist, 00:14:27.253 --> 00:14:31.518 we did a couple of deals with a company that had some people from India that were programmers. 00:14:31.923 --> 00:14:34.933 And I remember being so fascinated because I learned that India has, 00:14:34.933 --> 00:14:39.873 At the time, I swear it was like 1.3 billion people, but it was only, I think it's the third 00:14:39.873 --> 00:14:41.258 of the size of the US. 00:14:41.733 --> 00:14:45.228 And at the time, the US had, I think, three or 400 million in the whole country. 00:14:45.913 --> 00:14:49.853 So it's like, they're just packed, you know? Yeah. It's so sad. 00:14:49.853 --> 00:14:51.533 It's so sad to think about. And just kind of even saying that, 00:14:51.533 --> 00:14:55.761 so this guy had a chance to change his and probably his entire family's life. Yeah. 00:14:56.393 --> 00:15:00.953 And it's even sadder to think about his family in that position, like putting it all, 00:15:01.217 --> 00:15:06.456 his father putting it all out on the line and then his son just goes and does this. 00:15:06.673 --> 00:15:13.113 Potter is in Berkeley and he's immediately already just very socially awkward. 00:15:13.113 --> 00:15:18.681 A lot of articles refer to it as like culture shock Oh. because I guess like dating is different. 00:15:19.473 --> 00:15:25.003 In india obviously but i also think that it's very kind of messed up to water it all down to 00:15:25.003 --> 00:15:29.963 culture shock because with the way that he was acting i know that that's not protocol anywhere 00:15:29.963 --> 00:15:33.958 i really hope it's not you know what i mean yeah it's funny to sit in this is i appreciate this 00:15:34.123 --> 00:15:38.283 got some good feedback from our first episode we have a nice vibe because there's that part of me 00:15:38.283 --> 00:15:42.843 the therapist in me that still wants to not give everybody this overall break but the old they 00:15:42.843 --> 00:15:46.683 don't know what they don't know or you know but then i can't i'm with you i feel like that certain 00:15:46.683 --> 00:15:51.782 points though, if he was good enough to be picked to come over to America from this untouchable 00:15:51.827 --> 00:15:58.102 class, I would imagine that there was at least some common sense. Yeah. Yeah. But I guess not. 00:15:58.165 --> 00:16:04.430 Yeah. He was living on campus in college for naval architecture. Naval architecture. I don't 00:16:04.603 --> 00:16:09.323 even know what that is. I feel like I was building submarines or boats. Something like that. Some 00:16:09.323 --> 00:16:14.523 man thing. I don't know. A lot of sources actually said that it took Potter a year to even get the 00:16:14.523 --> 00:16:20.085 courage to go down to these folk dances. So, he was really going through it before that, I guess. 00:16:20.229 --> 00:16:28.043 When he finally did is when he met Tanya. And he just fell in love with her instantly. 00:16:28.647 --> 00:16:34.043 Just instantly obsessed with her. So, I think they might've danced a little bit, 00:16:34.043 --> 00:16:40.603 might've talked, but he was ready to pursue her and she just wasn't that into it. 00:16:40.782 --> 00:16:44.863 It's a trip too because if he was from this untouchable class and I'm in here 00:16:44.863 --> 00:16:48.023 look at me making this assumption that we're talking arranged marriage we're 00:16:48.023 --> 00:16:51.743 talking and now here he is in America and he's captivated at this folk dance 00:16:51.743 --> 00:17:00.403 by this beautiful Tanya and he's thinking this greatest thing ever I will have her. Yeah. Right? He's enthralled by her he's he wants to be with her all the 00:17:00.403 --> 00:17:04.854 time and she's just not reciprocating the same feelings. Is that kind of awkward? It is 00:17:05.183 --> 00:17:08.543 really awkward because you don't want to hurt the person but at the same time you 00:17:08.543 --> 00:17:09.463 I don't want to lead them on. 00:17:09.463 --> 00:17:14.623 And I'm sure that's a big thing that she was going through. It was like, how do I let him off slowly? 00:17:14.623 --> 00:17:17.623 Or how do I, you know? Oh, there's a, and it's funny, 00:17:17.623 --> 00:17:19.223 cause I love the fact that you edit my TikTok. 00:17:19.223 --> 00:17:23.743 So maybe you've heard me like talk about this before, but there's a part where I feel like it is the kind person 00:17:23.743 --> 00:17:28.503 that sometimes finds themselves in these almost pursuer withdrawer relationships. 00:17:28.503 --> 00:17:32.143 Because if she would have been somebody that from the immediate start was just like, no, 00:17:32.143 --> 00:17:36.183 I said no, then he would, you know, it was like, geez, okay. 00:17:36.183 --> 00:17:41.232 But if she's like, oh, maybe, I don't know. Okay. In her defense though, this guy is crazy. 00:17:41.403 --> 00:17:42.384 Oh, it just straight up. 00:17:42.663 --> 00:17:45.580 I don't even think Noah would have done anything. So he just locked in. 00:17:45.783 --> 00:17:50.223 It's almost like he just didn't listen to what, like everything she said to him, 00:17:50.223 --> 00:17:55.068 he just heard it as like the opposite of what it was. He was just missing every cue. 00:17:55.223 --> 00:17:57.544 He is immediately obsessed with her. 00:17:58.023 --> 00:18:01.316 So they dance together, they talk for a little bit and. 00:18:01.910 --> 00:18:07.374 Did they have phones? Did he get her phone number? No. Well, okay. That's a funny, this is back in the 60s. So 00:18:07.500 --> 00:18:09.760 he would have got her landline number. Isn't that funny? 00:18:09.760 --> 00:18:14.560 So weird. They start to see each other. They get along, but it is a lot more. 00:18:15.305 --> 00:18:17.680 On Potter's side than her side, if you know what I mean. 00:18:17.680 --> 00:18:20.662 Yeah. So he's thinking like, this is the most incredible thing ever. And she's like, 00:18:21.040 --> 00:18:28.880 we dance, we talk. I found my wife and she's just casually talking to people, casually dating, just like talking to, 00:18:28.880 --> 00:18:31.239 you know, like she just, she goes to these dances every week. 00:18:31.365 --> 00:18:38.360 You know? So they start seeing each other like once a week up until New Year's Eve. 00:18:38.600 --> 00:18:46.930 And on New Year's Eve, they kiss in the elevator. Now, Potter clings onto this, okay? This is my wife. 00:18:47.606 --> 00:18:51.760 We've kissed. It's done. We've kissed. She's pregnant. Okay. 00:18:51.760 --> 00:18:54.069 Okay. I'm sorry. Don't forget where you're going with this. 00:18:54.480 --> 00:18:59.660 Did you ever think that as a little kid? Yes. That's literally what I thought. Did you really? Yeah. 00:19:00.461 --> 00:19:06.186 Okay. I have a bone to pick with you, you know? Why? Okay, if you think that we weren't just, 00:19:06.300 --> 00:19:08.482 did the most amazing job at having the talk. 00:19:08.900 --> 00:19:11.660 Do you want to know where I got the birds and the bees, everybody? 00:19:11.660 --> 00:19:16.017 Were you at the claim jumper or were you at the fish pond? My favorite Mexican restaurant. 00:19:16.180 --> 00:19:17.736 Oh, did we like ruin that for you? 00:19:18.897 --> 00:19:22.664 Never the same. Are you, okay, so. Never the same. This is so funny, 00:19:22.664 --> 00:19:26.984 because I have like told that, you know, because we would be very intentional about it, right? 00:19:26.984 --> 00:19:30.164 You remember that? And we'd say, hey, we got a real cool date and you get to go out with mom and dad 00:19:30.164 --> 00:19:33.424 and we take you to your favorite place. Little did I know. And your life is gonna be changed forever 00:19:33.424 --> 00:19:37.024 and you're gonna hate it. And every one of you guys, and we would like tell you how it works. 00:19:37.024 --> 00:19:39.369 Yeah, there was always like that. What? 00:19:40.124 --> 00:19:44.344 Oh, okay. Now, as a therapist said, it's called the relational frame, 00:19:44.344 --> 00:19:48.144 that when you put something, two things together, they can be put together. 00:19:48.144 --> 00:19:50.009 Like now when I think of this, I think of that. 00:19:50.104 --> 00:19:53.344 Little did I know now that every time you think of Mexican food, you think of- 00:19:53.344 --> 00:19:58.344 My favorite wet burrito, I think of children being made. 00:19:58.984 --> 00:20:02.144 Okay, I'm so sorry. 00:20:02.824 --> 00:20:06.784 It's okay. Okay. Look at this therapy session. I know, it's very, I mean, 00:20:06.784 --> 00:20:09.944 and I'm sitting with the discomfort and saying, isn't that funny? 00:20:09.944 --> 00:20:14.324 Because I honestly thought that mom and I, I always thought we did a really nice job with that. 00:20:14.324 --> 00:20:17.034 But I think as we've talked with each one of you guys individually, it's been like, 00:20:17.264 --> 00:20:18.681 That was kind of crazy. 00:20:19.264 --> 00:20:23.664 So I don't know if there is a way to say it. I don't know, this is why I'm never having kids 00:20:23.664 --> 00:20:26.513 is because I don't want to have to figure out how to do any of this. 00:20:26.944 --> 00:20:32.500 I'm cool. Oh, wait, was it Cafe Delicious? It was La Via. Oh, La Via. So good. 00:20:33.157 --> 00:20:38.904 Okay, locals, yeah, Victor at La Via. I think you owe Sydney lots of free burritos 00:20:38.904 --> 00:20:40.800 to get her back in good graces, right? 00:20:41.264 --> 00:20:44.424 Okay. Okay, where were we? Well, they kissed each other, 00:20:44.424 --> 00:20:46.796 so you said that then he's like, oh, she's pregnant. 00:20:46.944 --> 00:20:52.824 Yeah, so he's obsessed with her and at this point she gives it to him straight. She's like, I'm not really interested in you 00:20:52.824 --> 00:20:57.584 I'm I'm talking to other guys, you know, like this isn't a serious thing. He's like we kissed 00:20:58.021 --> 00:21:02.864 Yeah, he doesn't take no for an answer. At this point, he just... 00:21:03.639 --> 00:21:09.089 He recoils and recoils at the right word is a great word. He's like a hermit 00:21:09.184 --> 00:21:13.209 Okay, so he's just staying in his room all the time. Okay, he starts missing work 00:21:13.406 --> 00:21:18.969 he starts using classes like people are saying like his eyes almost had like a glaze over there Wow and, 00:21:19.569 --> 00:21:24.329 He was just obsessed with this girl who wanted and she had rejected him. Yeah, okay 00:21:24.329 --> 00:21:28.109 Is this where then I forgot the whole thing where is this where now he goes and sees a therapist? 00:21:28.755 --> 00:21:32.109 Almost. Okay. Okay. But not yet. 00:21:32.257 --> 00:21:37.629 At this point, Podar had already sent a letter home to his parents saying that he had met 00:21:37.629 --> 00:21:42.469 the love of his life. Oh. Saying like, oh yeah, like her parents already want to know me. 00:21:42.664 --> 00:21:44.086 Oh, so he was lying. He was lying. 00:21:44.554 --> 00:21:48.069 Fully lying. Okay. They were in zero relationship at this point. 00:21:48.069 --> 00:21:52.305 Okay. It was like a happy new year kiss. Yeah. Sees her at a dance every now and again. 00:21:52.869 --> 00:21:55.582 Sees him and then, but he wrote already, this is it. 00:21:56.779 --> 00:22:00.389 Which thinking about it now, like we were talking about earlier, maybe he felt like 00:22:00.389 --> 00:22:03.509 he had something to prove to his parents back at home or something. 00:22:03.509 --> 00:22:08.269 Part of me wonders because that untouchable stuff, I mean, I can't lie, during one of 00:22:08.269 --> 00:22:10.967 your pee breaks, which we have a few, right? 00:22:11.435 --> 00:22:15.989 We'd be peeing. Right? But I like just, I was looking at one of the notes and it just said that, I didn't realize 00:22:15.989 --> 00:22:20.113 those untouchables, it said that he was one of the only people that ever left India to come to the US. 00:22:20.389 --> 00:22:23.840 Yeah. So I can imagine that he's got to like do, make everybody proud. 00:22:23.912 --> 00:22:25.343 Again, not trying to excuse the behavior. 00:22:25.947 --> 00:22:30.385 No, yeah, I've got it all. In fact, there's no excuse for this. It's creepy. 00:22:30.466 --> 00:22:36.797 Tanya is just not into it. It's not working and he doesn't know what to do. 00:22:36.797 --> 00:22:42.097 So instead of like a normal person moving on to someone else or, you know, getting on Tinder. 00:22:42.097 --> 00:22:45.788 They didn't have Tinder. Ha! That's funny. They didn't have anything like that. 00:22:45.940 --> 00:22:52.797 He instead became best friends with her brother, Alex. Oh, he's going to take what the end around there. 00:22:52.797 --> 00:22:55.924 Yeah, he's getting in any way that he can. He really is, huh? 00:22:56.437 --> 00:23:05.088 Yeah, so he meets Alex and it's funny how they meet, okay? So they meet because Poddar is calling the landline 00:23:05.197 --> 00:23:09.977 to Tanya's house and Tanya wants nothing to do to it. Oh, but who else is gonna answer? 00:23:10.077 --> 00:23:15.063 Exactly. Alex. Yeah, Tanya wants nothing to do with it. So she hands the phone off to her big brother. 00:23:15.557 --> 00:23:17.637 And he tells Poddar off. 00:23:18.007 --> 00:23:21.757 He's like, don't talk to my sister. She doesn't want you, like leave her alone. 00:23:21.757 --> 00:23:24.677 Then does Poddar say, man, you know what? You sound like a nice guy. 00:23:24.677 --> 00:23:26.237 I think you, I understand. 00:23:26.451 --> 00:23:29.637 You're like, hey, what are you doing later? Right. Like the sound of that voice. 00:23:29.637 --> 00:23:32.637 Oh, don't you wish we knew, like had recordings of those kinds of calls? 00:23:32.637 --> 00:23:34.202 Yeah, that would be really crazy. 00:23:34.477 --> 00:23:40.809 So they had that fight over the telephone and then Poddar actually asked if they could meet in person. 00:23:41.077 --> 00:23:43.348 He and Alex? Poddar, Alex, and Tanya. 00:23:43.557 --> 00:23:49.614 Oh. Alex says yes, and they meet at a gas station a few blocks away from Tanya's house. 00:23:49.758 --> 00:23:58.760 And apparently Poddar had written down on a piece of paper a list of things in which he thought Tanya was insulting him. 00:23:59.037 --> 00:24:00.902 Oh, he's gonna start gaslighting. 00:24:01.197 --> 00:24:04.437 And so Alex is looking at this list and he's like, what is this? 00:24:04.437 --> 00:24:08.797 Like, Alex explains to him that these aren't things that are a problem. 00:24:08.797 --> 00:24:13.637 Okay. Maybe that's part of that culture shift. Well, okay, so another thing, I was looking at that, 00:24:13.637 --> 00:24:17.197 the Untouchables, they do arrange marriage. And so I wonder if he was saying, 00:24:17.277 --> 00:24:18.844 oh no, I will be marrying you. 00:24:19.077 --> 00:24:23.917 And she said, no. Oh, she kissed me. We've been on dates and she's not, yeah, maybe. 00:24:23.917 --> 00:24:29.179 So then if he's saying, you don't understand, she kissed me and I told her I wanted to marry her. So, therefore. 00:24:29.719 --> 00:24:34.209 She can't insult me. We must be married. So they have this little altercation at the gas station. 00:24:34.886 --> 00:24:39.889 And you would think that it would end there, but Alex takes Tanya to one of the dances again, 00:24:39.889 --> 00:24:42.052 and Potter's there again. 00:24:42.205 --> 00:24:42.619 Okay. 00:24:42.826 --> 00:24:47.912 And he invites them up to his room. Potter does? Yes, they go and says. 00:24:49.020 --> 00:24:53.649 He showed Alex a series of electronic inventions of his, which interested Alex, 00:24:53.649 --> 00:24:55.489 and thereafter the two men became close friends. 00:24:55.489 --> 00:24:59.829 Oh, so he just said, He said, okay, I get it. I'm not being very nice to your sister, 00:25:00.164 --> 00:25:03.729 but check out these things I've made. You wanna play with my toys? 00:25:03.729 --> 00:25:08.500 Alex, and like a guy does, it's like, well, those are kind of cool toys. Yeah, literally. 00:25:08.629 --> 00:25:12.533 So at this point, they become close friends and they move in together. 00:25:13.129 --> 00:25:21.257 So now Poddar is living with Alex, Tanya's brother. And he, at this point, is still so obsessed with Tanya. 00:25:21.409 --> 00:25:25.938 Alex says that he remembers an incident in 1969, the same year that they met, 00:25:26.049 --> 00:25:30.007 when Potter was talking about, I guess, some money that somebody owed Alex. 00:25:30.089 --> 00:25:34.481 And Alex commented that if he didn't get the money paid back to him, he would beat the other person up. 00:25:34.729 --> 00:25:35.075 Okay. 00:25:35.569 --> 00:25:41.296 Potter's response to that was that he wouldn't beat them up, he would kill them. Whoa. Yeah. 00:25:42.034 --> 00:25:45.995 If he killed someone, he would turn himself in and take the penalty for it. 00:25:46.769 --> 00:25:50.169 Alex owned a pellet gun, and he also remembers another occasion 00:25:50.169 --> 00:25:53.129 where Potter asked him if you could use this gun 00:25:53.129 --> 00:25:54.889 to kill a person. Wow. 00:25:55.249 --> 00:25:59.327 Alex said he didn't know and Poddar said, where can I get a regular gun? 00:25:59.921 --> 00:26:05.249 So there's already just so many like- Red flags. Yeah, Alex told him that he didn't think he could get one. 00:26:05.683 --> 00:26:10.179 And it just kind of stopped there. Okay. So, while they were living together, 00:26:10.292 --> 00:26:13.979 Poddar was not quite about his love for Alex's sister. 00:26:13.979 --> 00:26:19.479 He would tell Alex how in love he was with his sister, and that he wanted to marry her, 00:26:19.479 --> 00:26:24.381 that he was so obsessed with her. It was very clear to the people around Poddar 00:26:24.579 --> 00:26:27.479 that he was not acting okay. 00:26:27.567 --> 00:26:32.479 So, at this point, one of his friends tells him, hey, I think you should see a psychologist. 00:26:32.479 --> 00:26:34.979 Interesting. And he actually does go. Okay. 00:26:35.174 --> 00:26:38.899 And sees a psychologist. And I think that in this one too, 00:26:38.899 --> 00:26:40.859 because I remember just from the little bits I looked over, 00:26:40.859 --> 00:26:44.122 they do talk about psychiatrists, which is the one that can prescribe medications. 00:26:44.379 --> 00:26:48.723 And then sometimes I read psychologists, which is one that more does like clinical assessments and talk therapy. 00:26:49.074 --> 00:26:54.943 So I'm with you. He saw some mental health professional. This is where the system just completely fails Tanya. 00:26:55.060 --> 00:26:58.859 Because at these sessions, I think his therapist was Dr. Moore. 00:26:58.859 --> 00:27:00.831 Yeah, James Moore? James Moore. 00:27:01.128 --> 00:27:06.898 He was talking about wanting to kill Tanya. he was very clearly showing, you know, 00:27:07.139 --> 00:27:09.158 that like he was not okay. 00:27:09.259 --> 00:27:13.299 And Dr. Moore talked about how he was going back and forth at this point. 00:27:13.299 --> 00:27:15.819 Like, do I tell someone, do I keep it to myself? 00:27:15.819 --> 00:27:19.492 And he didn't know what to do. And I guess his rule of thumb at that point was 00:27:19.819 --> 00:27:24.858 you can't predict future violence if there isn't past violence. 00:27:25.019 --> 00:27:28.801 Yeah, and so he had not killed anybody so far. He really hadn't even had much violent, 00:27:28.939 --> 00:27:31.348 he hadn't had any police reports or anything like that. 00:27:31.499 --> 00:27:38.091 I hate that concept, it's like then we're just gonna be cleaning up messes forever. I know and it's so... You can't get to the core if you don't... 00:27:38.219 --> 00:27:43.939 No and it's so crazy too Syd because I still I can only think of it from the lens of from day one of graduate school 00:27:43.939 --> 00:27:46.979 you're told duty to warn, duty to warn and so I can't even imagine, 00:27:47.535 --> 00:27:52.259 what's that stuff called where it's like you try to put today's stuff on it's called I think it's called presentism. 00:27:52.855 --> 00:28:00.939 So then we try to go back and lay out you know what we know now at that time and so there was nobody talking about duty to warn like this is the reason why 00:28:00.939 --> 00:28:01.983 why there is duty to warn. 00:28:02.379 --> 00:28:05.419 So it's just such a trip to think, I don't know if he was even talking to other therapists. 00:28:05.419 --> 00:28:08.699 I don't know if he had a consultation group. I don't know if he had a mentor, you know? 00:28:08.699 --> 00:28:11.517 So at some point, it was just all him going back and forth. 00:28:11.779 --> 00:28:17.494 Sources said that at this point, he was even recording conversations with Tanya. 00:28:17.819 --> 00:28:22.019 Whenever they would hang out, he would record the entire conversation 00:28:22.019 --> 00:28:23.913 and then go back and listen to it later. 00:28:24.099 --> 00:28:27.919 Wow. It said he was like looking for inconsistencies in their friendship. 00:28:28.499 --> 00:28:30.322 To try to prove to her that she was... 00:28:31.007 --> 00:28:34.857 I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 00:28:35.093 --> 00:28:39.217 So at this point, his therapist is concerned. They think that he was showing signs of schizophrenia. 00:28:39.217 --> 00:28:44.078 Oh, wow. That's a whole different thing. I'll tell you that here you can edit this out or in or whatever. 00:28:44.337 --> 00:28:48.057 But so what's fascinating is I have worked with a couple of people that I would say do 00:28:48.057 --> 00:28:52.333 experience those concepts of like paranoia or around paranoid schizophrenic. 00:28:52.937 --> 00:28:56.078 So I had one one time that just said mentioned that they were around a bunch of people. 00:28:56.697 --> 00:29:02.217 One of the people that was talking mentioned something about a particular color of shirt 00:29:02.442 --> 00:29:06.057 and this guy was wearing that color of shirt. So, then it's interesting because he just said, 00:29:06.057 --> 00:29:11.238 so obviously the guy was talking about me. And he said, and so at that point then the client said, 00:29:11.607 --> 00:29:15.257 and since he was talking about me, then I could tell that everybody else understood that too. 00:29:15.469 --> 00:29:18.647 And then they all started laughing at the story he was telling, which meant they were laughing at me. 00:29:18.980 --> 00:29:23.257 And he said, and then finally I just, I'd had enough. And so, that concept around paranoia 00:29:23.257 --> 00:29:27.897 can be really, really woven into everything. So, the person's creating this narrative that 00:29:27.897 --> 00:29:31.737 just fits the concept that everybody is out to get them or talking about them. 00:29:32.015 --> 00:29:35.897 Yeah. It's kind of, it's really scary to think, like, what was going on in his head. Like, 00:29:35.897 --> 00:29:40.137 if he were to tell this story, it would be so different. Oh, yeah. For real. 00:29:40.857 --> 00:29:44.857 He'd be like, oh, yeah, she looked at me for half a second and I knew. 00:29:45.104 --> 00:29:47.067 And that's it. I knew. She wanted me. 00:29:47.211 --> 00:29:51.172 Totally. And this is that thing, it's actually called nonviolent communication, but where 00:29:51.257 --> 00:29:55.466 we make an observation and we put in our own judgment to try to make sense of something. 00:29:55.808 --> 00:29:59.817 So it's like if he observes her, then he makes the judgment of, well, she likes me too. She's 00:29:59.817 --> 00:30:05.017 just afraid to admit it. So then if she does anything other than says, oh yeah, I like you. 00:30:05.017 --> 00:30:08.937 I'm just afraid to admit it, then he even tells himself she's not even being honest with herself. 00:30:09.626 --> 00:30:14.756 You know, it's crazy. You have to separate your observation from your judgment because then you can have a little more curiosity, 00:30:15.307 --> 00:30:21.356 But that's you have to actively work on doing that. There was actually a letter written to the campus police 00:30:21.356 --> 00:30:32.015 Okay, that said he's not okay. Like he's a danger to other people okay, and the campus police go to Alex and Potter's apartment and they interview him and. 00:30:33.005 --> 00:30:38.556 They declared that he's okay. Mmm. Oh it cuz he just says no, I'm good. I get it. Yeah 00:30:38.830 --> 00:30:39.928 All right, I'll back off. 00:30:40.096 --> 00:30:47.536 So at this point, this letter is just, it's dropped, it's destroyed. 00:30:47.536 --> 00:30:51.163 He's let go and nobody warned Tanya. 00:30:51.296 --> 00:30:54.936 Nobody warned anyone. And that's the part where it's just so crazy. 00:30:55.178 --> 00:30:59.472 It's like, even if there was this interview and even if he talked his way out of it, 00:30:59.956 --> 00:31:04.176 does she not have the right to know that he's literally talking to his therapist 00:31:04.176 --> 00:31:05.810 about killing her? About trying to kill her, yeah. 00:31:05.936 --> 00:31:09.016 Yeah, and it's just like so unfair because it's like from her side of it, 00:31:09.016 --> 00:31:14.416 I'm sure she was already terrified of this guy. There's even more, he would wait at her bus stops. 00:31:14.416 --> 00:31:18.070 He would follow her home, like trying to meet her wherever he could. 00:31:18.936 --> 00:31:24.416 And- I wonder what Alex was like at that time, being his roommate and him, 00:31:24.416 --> 00:31:28.126 because I would imagine if he's recording her and he's telling his therapist and he's stalking her, 00:31:28.576 --> 00:31:30.899 that I would imagine he couldn't not talk about her. 00:31:31.056 --> 00:31:35.296 Exactly, and that's the thing that I don't really understand is he was talking about her. 00:31:35.296 --> 00:31:40.756 It says right here that he would tell Alex about his obsession with his sister. 00:31:40.896 --> 00:31:45.437 And Alex just said he didn't think that Poddar would keep his word. 00:31:45.556 --> 00:31:50.236 So his initial roommate, Mystery, would be one of the guys that he would tell a lot 00:31:50.236 --> 00:31:52.981 about his unrequited love with Tonya to. 00:31:53.316 --> 00:31:58.116 And Mystery recounted an incident where Poddar threatened to take Tonya's life. 00:31:58.116 --> 00:32:01.716 Mystery told Poddar that he felt compelled to report it to the police. 00:32:01.716 --> 00:32:05.585 And all Poddar said was, In that case, I'll have to kill you, too. 00:32:05.657 --> 00:32:08.384 Whoa. What are you going to do about it? Wow! 00:32:09.500 --> 00:32:16.350 So, I guess that must have shut him up for the time being. As it, you know, can't blame someone too much. 00:32:16.513 --> 00:32:21.311 At about this time, he also told a fellow co-worker that he would get even with Tanya 00:32:21.681 --> 00:32:23.850 by blowing up the block on which she lived. 00:32:24.687 --> 00:32:29.909 He later even talked about blowing up her house. And finally, blowing up her room. 00:32:30.350 --> 00:32:36.867 So, okay, you're telling former roommates, current roommates, his psychiatrist, his psychologist, co-workers. 00:32:37.350 --> 00:32:43.630 And somehow she still doesn't know yeah, like it's just it's really upsetting 00:32:43.889 --> 00:32:49.830 So Tonya leaves for Brazil in June of 1969 Tonya gets back from Brazil. This is in September 00:32:49.984 --> 00:32:53.117 Potter is not seeing the psychologist anymore. Mm-hmm, so, 00:32:54.890 --> 00:32:59.230 He's just a pit of nothing at this point. He spends hours in his room crying 00:32:59.230 --> 00:33:05.870 He's just he's an absolute mess pit of nothing first reference that would make a good name for an alternative band. 00:33:08.042 --> 00:33:10.710 And at this point too, it's funny not funny It's sad 00:33:10.710 --> 00:33:15.310 but I've had those clients before where when they come in all they want you to do is tell them they're right and then tell 00:33:15.310 --> 00:33:21.070 Them that they're justified and whatever that is They want to do and when you don't then they stop seeing you. So I mean when he says he stops seeing the, 00:33:21.790 --> 00:33:25.870 Psychologist I would imagine it's because the psychologist is probably telling them. Yeah, that's not cool 00:33:26.209 --> 00:33:32.230 Yeah, like she doesn't love you. Yeah, exactly move on if it's not validating him, then he doesn't want to hear exactly. 00:33:33.303 --> 00:33:37.290 Which is not what therapy is all about Challenge and self-confrontation and all that stuff 00:33:37.543 --> 00:33:39.350 Have you ever had a good experience with someone? 00:33:39.721 --> 00:33:44.310 Sending somebody else to therapy because I feel like part of it you kind of have to choose to go by yourself 00:33:44.670 --> 00:33:51.136 So, okay, you know, I honestly I love that question because my initial response would be no because the person has to want it 00:33:51.532 --> 00:33:56.550 But then one of the things I like about being a therapist is if somebody comes in I will often say I don't have a 00:33:56.550 --> 00:34:01.070 Magic wand. I don't have a magic pill. So if you're gonna be here, then let me just ask you questions 00:34:01.070 --> 00:34:06.010 Let's get to know you and then often I think if the person feels like therapy isn't a bad experience 00:34:06.440 --> 00:34:10.527 Then they're willing to come a little bit more and then you can start to ease into what help would look like 00:34:10.710 --> 00:34:17.230 So I have now I can say I've had good experiences like that But I've of course never had anything like this. You kind of do have to want to change 00:34:17.230 --> 00:34:20.830 Oh, you do. Oh, you totally do. And some people do come into therapy basically without even 00:34:20.830 --> 00:34:25.470 understanding what it is and just wanting somebody to validate them. Because so often, 00:34:25.470 --> 00:34:28.750 people that are just walking around, like in this scenario, if you were just walking around 00:34:28.750 --> 00:34:32.990 telling everybody, this girl doesn't love me, but she should because she's done all these things and, 00:34:33.550 --> 00:34:37.630 I'm the best for her and I would be amazing. Then they're so used to everybody either tuning 00:34:37.630 --> 00:34:41.230 them out or telling them, yeah, but you need to understand. So, all you do is you go to a 00:34:41.230 --> 00:34:46.041 therapist who says, man, that sounds hard. And then they say, oh, see, he gets it. He understands. 00:34:46.455 --> 00:34:51.334 So you can see all kinds of things when somebody doesn't really, if they're not really there, to try to improve. 00:34:51.430 --> 00:34:56.411 So at this point, Podar is following her to every bus stop. 00:34:57.006 --> 00:35:00.956 Won't leave her alone, he's stalking her. But I guess no one could do anything about it 00:35:01.036 --> 00:35:02.456 because there wasn't violence yet. 00:35:02.536 --> 00:35:05.196 Oh, right. Oh, that's sad, too. That one is, yeah. 00:35:05.296 --> 00:35:07.796 What are the police even for? I don't just don't understand that. 00:35:08.007 --> 00:35:12.876 On the Friday before the killing, Alex, the brother, and Poddar had a fight 00:35:13.282 --> 00:35:15.776 over the fact that Poddar wasn't going to his work. 00:35:16.441 --> 00:35:22.216 And Alex punches him and, like, knocks him over. Now we move on to the murder. 00:35:22.428 --> 00:35:28.016 Okay. So this is October 27th, 1969 in the morning. 00:35:28.586 --> 00:35:34.536 Poddar is literally stalking the house. It's said that he was like waiting outside a bush or something. 00:35:34.536 --> 00:35:39.181 And he goes up, he knocks on the door and asks for Tanya and Tanya's not home. 00:35:39.376 --> 00:35:44.222 So his mom answers and his mom, everyone knows who this guy is at this point. 00:35:44.656 --> 00:35:48.416 You know, like he is a target in this family. So the mom tells him off. 00:35:48.416 --> 00:35:52.856 She's like, she doesn't want you, get out of here. Like leave my daughter alone. 00:35:53.144 --> 00:35:59.236 And he leaves for about three hours. Tanya's mom said that he just looked so shady. 00:35:59.236 --> 00:36:04.514 He was wearing a hoodie and he had his hands in his pockets the whole time and he wouldn't move them out of his pockets. 00:36:04.793 --> 00:36:06.755 He knew Tanya's entire schedule at this point. 00:36:07.036 --> 00:36:13.956 Oh, I'm sure. So he knew that evening Alex and the mom would be gone because I think they were like taking her sister 00:36:13.956 --> 00:36:15.996 to ballet practice or something. 00:36:16.136 --> 00:36:19.106 So Poddar knew that she would be alone in the house. 00:36:19.629 --> 00:36:26.516 So that night, he comes back after waiting out in a bush for the rest of her family to leave. 00:36:27.299 --> 00:36:35.396 He walks up to the door, knocks and asks for Tanya and Tanya obviously does not want to see him. 00:36:35.396 --> 00:36:39.396 She's not happy to see him and she's telling him off. 00:36:39.604 --> 00:36:45.156 And at this point, he pulls out a gun and shoots her. 00:36:45.456 --> 00:36:51.816 And she like tries to you know save herself at this point like attack him or 00:36:51.816 --> 00:36:56.316 something and then he stabs her to death. Wow. 00:36:55.386 --> 00:36:59.373 Right there in her front porch? Right on her front porch. Wow. 00:37:00.436 --> 00:37:05.636 I'm wondering, do you know if anybody responded or? It wasn't even that late at night, I don't think. 00:37:05.636 --> 00:37:08.636 There was like three witnesses, like so many of the neighbors, 00:37:08.943 --> 00:37:14.290 like a little neighbor boy saw her, like saw the whole struggle, like everyone heard it. 00:37:14.516 --> 00:37:20.835 He walks into the house, picks up their landline, and calls the police and says, 00:37:20.916 --> 00:37:23.167 I just murdered my girlfriend. Whoa. 00:37:23.676 --> 00:37:27.596 Turn me in. Wow, okay. Not your girlfriend. 00:37:28.703 --> 00:37:32.916 Nope, that's a trip. So they come arrest him. How did it come out about the duty to warn? 00:37:32.916 --> 00:37:35.509 So then did the family sue? 00:37:35.636 --> 00:37:42.156 Yeah, so the family was very upset at this point. Everything started coming out about the psychiatrist, 00:37:42.683 --> 00:37:48.634 and all of this information. There's a fancy lawyer word for it that I think I wrote down somewhere. 00:37:48.836 --> 00:37:51.181 No, I just wrote laws change. Laws change. 00:37:51.425 --> 00:37:57.916 Okay, let's find it. A new precedent was set or something. So Tarasov's parents sued Moore and other employees 00:37:57.916 --> 00:38:01.129 at the university who were in charge of all of this. 00:38:01.356 --> 00:38:08.396 And Poddar was then convicted of second degree murder. This is when that law came to pass. 00:38:08.396 --> 00:38:10.113 Okay, the Tarasov duty to warn. 00:38:10.436 --> 00:38:13.147 So in that, everything was good. 00:38:14.516 --> 00:38:17.414 I mean, I'm sure it has saved a lot of lives over the years. 00:38:18.096 --> 00:38:23.116 This is crazy to me too, because this is the case that made this Tarasov law, right? 00:38:23.116 --> 00:38:30.576 Tell me why Poddar is out of prison and he only served four years really out on manslaughter, 00:38:31.449 --> 00:38:37.059 And they sent him back to India, and he's married to an attorney with a kid. 00:38:37.174 --> 00:38:38.371 I did not see that coming. 00:38:38.489 --> 00:38:42.899 I sometimes want to even go look it up and say, man, I wonder if you could write him a letter in prison right now. 00:38:42.899 --> 00:38:44.899 But he got out after four years. 00:38:45.051 --> 00:38:48.259 He's out. And so I guess that it was something that had to do with the jury. 00:38:48.259 --> 00:38:50.019 It wasn't even with the actual case. 00:38:50.830 --> 00:38:54.419 It had been inadequately instructed. 00:38:55.359 --> 00:39:04.479 Oh, my goodness. And they let him go. And this part is just such so mind-boggling to me because he is the reason if you look up the Tarasoff case 00:39:04.479 --> 00:39:08.952 If you look up why this law was created. Yeah, the guy who murdered her is out. 00:39:10.482 --> 00:39:17.351 So We okay, so you could like interview it. Maybe it's like, oh, I mean, hopefully he's not want to call in. No 00:39:17.619 --> 00:39:21.279 I don't or but I appreciate I think you laid out a nice, 00:39:21.960 --> 00:39:31.062 case of that it seemed like almost everybody knew that he was this stalker this pariah from the therapist to the cops to the brother to the friend to her 00:39:31.479 --> 00:39:35.639 family to Tanya and so it is interesting I'm not saying that then the therapist 00:39:35.639 --> 00:39:39.319 is the one that took the brunt of it I mean I know that all this had to happen 00:39:39.319 --> 00:39:43.199 in essence so that then this law was passed but it does seem like there's a 00:39:43.199 --> 00:39:47.999 lot of people that knew yeah and this was a long time ago but I still see this 00:39:47.999 --> 00:39:54.639 happening with cases today, especially with cases of stalking. The police won't do anything until, 00:39:55.350 --> 00:40:01.439 there's violence. Which is like, are we just hoping that they're not good at murder? 00:40:01.642 --> 00:40:03.279 It is weird. Yeah. 00:40:03.839 --> 00:40:07.503 I really wish that they would take these kinds of cases more seriously. 00:40:07.557 --> 00:40:11.199 There is starting to, because I do so much with narcissism and personality disorders, 00:40:11.199 --> 00:40:15.919 and I remember doing an episode a few months ago. There are some states that are starting to pass 00:40:15.919 --> 00:40:20.239 more of these like restraining orders, peaceful contact restraining orders. So, you don't even 00:40:20.239 --> 00:40:24.639 have to have a physical abuse to then be able to file a restraining order. But then there are 00:40:24.639 --> 00:40:28.586 are people that are arguing that, okay, what if the person is just being. 00:40:29.406 --> 00:40:33.411 Like if the person filing the restraining order is doing it just to be, you know, difficult, 00:40:33.547 --> 00:40:37.778 or is it the person that is being difficult than having the restraining order filed against them? 00:40:38.066 --> 00:40:40.676 But again, with the population I work with, I would rather have somebody default to give, 00:40:41.176 --> 00:40:45.096 them the restraining order than not. Yeah. It's all situational, which makes it hard. 00:40:45.096 --> 00:40:50.136 So hard. But you're right though. Step in the right direction. Yeah. But the part where then, 00:40:50.136 --> 00:40:53.896 I mean, I've literally had clients that have been trying to get out of like really bad 00:40:53.896 --> 00:40:58.006 relationships and it sounds so bad to say this, but then the person will get hit, you know, 00:40:58.376 --> 00:41:01.176 The other one will get really drunk and then they'll come in and they'll hit them or push them 00:41:01.589 --> 00:41:07.496 And then they almost call that like this the golden ticket because now the cops are involved and then it's a whole different ballgame 00:41:07.816 --> 00:41:13.496 Now they can get the restraining order and they you know, they feel justified in filing for divorce or it's just such a mind. 00:41:14.296 --> 00:41:22.056 Fuck that you have to get it is hurt before you can get protected it is but but and I think as you remember in the even in the abby choi case and then 00:41:22.056 --> 00:41:28.739 and even a lot of the TikToks that we've been doing and stuff, that the emotionally abusive person 00:41:28.936 --> 00:41:34.256 creates a trauma bond and they give the person just enough peace that then they start to feel like, 00:41:34.256 --> 00:41:35.581 well, it's not that bad. 00:41:35.736 --> 00:41:39.992 But then the person that is the narcissist or the emotionally immature just is relentless 00:41:40.096 --> 00:41:46.042 and they're trying to figure out any way to get into that person's life. 00:41:46.736 --> 00:41:51.256 Yeah. Like being friends with her brother. Exactly, yeah. Or then the police come over and it's like, 00:41:51.256 --> 00:41:53.865 No, I get it. It's probably this letter I wrote, you know, it's, I get it. 00:41:54.076 --> 00:41:57.336 It's okay. For Alex, he must've felt so guilty. I appreciate you saying that 00:41:57.336 --> 00:41:59.374 because I feel bad about that too. Yeah, because like part, 00:41:59.626 --> 00:42:01.276 like there was a couple of times where I'm telling this 00:42:01.276 --> 00:42:06.636 where I almost want to like shit on him a little bit, but I can't because I just, there's no way, you know, 00:42:06.636 --> 00:42:08.313 he could have, there's no way he was aware. 00:42:08.636 --> 00:42:11.716 I mean, maybe he was. I don't know. All this stuff is so crazy. 00:42:12.716 --> 00:42:15.668 I mean. So when you say like what you were wanting to poop on him, 00:42:15.796 --> 00:42:21.396 my, my, does your ADHD picture everything? and now I can't help but think of you doing that, 00:42:21.396 --> 00:42:22.555 which I think is kind of interesting. 00:42:23.156 --> 00:42:25.656 I don't think it's- Did I even say that? I don't even know what I said. 00:42:25.656 --> 00:42:27.316 I just speak- Well, you didn't say poop. 00:42:27.407 --> 00:42:31.557 And deal with the repercussions. But I'm glad we said that though, 00:42:31.816 --> 00:42:34.676 because I feel like that's the part where I have felt as well. 00:42:34.676 --> 00:42:39.796 I can't imagine how he feels. I cannot even imagine, because in hindsight, part of the grief and loss, 00:42:39.796 --> 00:42:41.956 I don't know if you've heard this, the stages of grief and loss, 00:42:41.956 --> 00:42:43.206 denial, anger, bargaining. 00:42:43.890 --> 00:42:47.864 Depression and acceptance, the bargaining phase is often when you go back and say, 00:42:47.864 --> 00:42:50.744 man, I could have done something. I should have done something different. And people 00:42:50.744 --> 00:42:55.197 will beat themselves up about that for years. Like I do deal with that in therapy quite often. 00:42:55.620 --> 00:42:59.544 And you can't, you know, it isn't productive or helpful. Okay. So then on the notes on the case, 00:42:59.544 --> 00:43:04.584 so I did do just a real quick dive as a therapist and I thought this was interesting. So Potter saw 00:43:04.584 --> 00:43:10.584 Dr. Moore seven times and then on that seventh therapy session, so this was August of 69. So 00:43:10.681 --> 00:43:15.464 he killed her in October, I think it was October 22nd or 27th. Potter already confessed that he 00:43:15.464 --> 00:43:21.464 planned to kill Tanya and then he diagnosed Potter of having an acute and severe paranoid 00:43:21.464 --> 00:43:26.543 schizophrenic reaction. And then I thought this was interesting, he and two other doctors then 00:43:26.904 --> 00:43:30.024 determined that Potter should be committed to a psychiatric hospital and that's when they 00:43:30.024 --> 00:43:34.504 contacted the police. But then that was when the police only briefly, you know, they went and had 00:43:34.504 --> 00:43:39.074 the conversation and yeah, and they let him go because he said, I won't do it anymore. 00:43:39.416 --> 00:43:42.207 And so here's where from the therapist angle, things get a little sketchy, 00:43:42.549 --> 00:43:45.704 that it says following Potdar's release from that detainment, 00:43:45.704 --> 00:43:49.704 not from four years later from prison, but this Dr. Harvey Powelson, 00:43:49.704 --> 00:43:51.218 who was Dr. Moore's supervisor. 00:43:51.605 --> 00:43:56.026 Then he instructed the police to return the letter from Dr. Moore, instructing them to detain Potdar, 00:43:56.331 --> 00:44:00.527 order that the letter and all the notes that the therapist had taken on Potdar be destroyed, 00:44:00.887 --> 00:44:04.244 and instructed Dr. Moore to take no other action in detaining Potdar. 00:44:04.326 --> 00:44:09.124 So that was like the Moore, the Dr. Moore's boss said, 00:44:09.439 --> 00:44:10.964 okay, if you guys aren't gonna do anything about it, 00:44:10.964 --> 00:44:12.604 then let's destroy all the notes. 00:44:12.604 --> 00:44:15.324 Let's tuck it under the rug kind of thing. Yeah, so I feel like that should have been 00:44:15.324 --> 00:44:18.000 something there too, right? So then the doctors who examined Poddar then 00:44:18.244 --> 00:44:21.084 never even notified Tanya or any of the family 00:44:21.084 --> 00:44:22.447 about his threatening statements. 00:44:22.798 --> 00:44:26.030 And then Poddar never went back to therapy and then killed her as planned. 00:44:26.364 --> 00:44:30.284 It's just so messed up because like I said before, she obviously was already scared of him. 00:44:30.284 --> 00:44:31.846 The family was already scared of him. 00:44:31.964 --> 00:44:34.141 Yeah. But they didn't know that they were getting. 00:44:34.609 --> 00:44:41.459 Threats for their house to be blown. Yeah. Yeah, like that's even like the mom and the dad probably would have wanted to know that 00:44:41.459 --> 00:44:46.539 Too, you know, there's I think so. No, there's just bomb that's to your house, but the whole thing confidential 00:44:46.915 --> 00:44:55.837 Yeah, it's really really crazy. I also wanted to add this in. Mm-hmm He didn't kill her with a regular gun. He killed her with a pellet gun 00:44:56.019 --> 00:45:01.739 Oh, so that just kind of like push me like took her by surprise or yeah, and I don't I can't find anything on here, 00:45:02.201 --> 00:45:02.768 but, 00:45:03.750 --> 00:45:08.239 If I remember right the only person who had a pellet gun was Alex and, 00:45:09.493 --> 00:45:18.666 Alex told him that he had no other way of getting a gun So, I don't know if that's the gun that was used Wow if it is that's just even more sick and twisted and sad. Yeah, 00:45:20.458 --> 00:45:26.979 So Sid now every single time I get a new client and I say hey duty to warn I'm gonna point me. I'm gonna duty, 00:45:28.263 --> 00:45:33.574 I'm gonna point them to this episode. Yes, okay Okay, so we're wrapping it up. 00:45:35.979 --> 00:45:39.281 So how's the weather? It's actually not very good, it's raining. 00:45:39.579 --> 00:45:43.099 It's sunny though right now. It is, yeah. I wore shoes, well, it doesn't matter. 00:45:43.619 --> 00:45:44.818 I say that, get wet. 00:45:45.835 --> 00:45:46.510 Please, please delete that part. 00:45:48.563 --> 00:45:51.799 Okay, you could make me sound like a complete buffoon too. You know that, right? 00:45:51.799 --> 00:45:53.979 Should I edit something really weird right now? Oh, please. 00:45:54.306 --> 00:45:58.219 Just make you say the most out of pocket sentence ever. No, and this, I noticed that this episode 00:45:58.219 --> 00:45:59.861 we didn't say any phrases that I didn't know. 00:46:00.219 --> 00:46:04.443 I think I could even probably take a guess at what out-of-pocket means as well as other things. 00:46:05.019 --> 00:46:07.062 You wanna take it out-of-pocket? That one's easy. 00:46:08.279 --> 00:46:12.644 Yeah, I know what it is. So anyway, thanks, Sid. Murder on the couch, number two, done. 00:46:12.819 --> 00:46:16.379 Really blew me off with that one. Because I'm worried that what if I really don't know 00:46:16.379 --> 00:46:17.433 what it means? That's fair. 00:46:18.039 --> 00:46:21.151 Right, okay. So we'll- No one's watching anymore. No, exactly. 00:46:21.379 --> 00:46:26.651 So we'll see you- We're the only people here. Next week. Oh, subscribe and like and all that stuff. 00:46:26.706 --> 00:46:28.965 That's funny. Though people don't really say that anymore though, right? 00:46:29.379 --> 00:46:33.961 I don't know, do your thing. Oh yeah, I would be grateful. We were featured on Apple's something, 00:46:34.179 --> 00:46:34.808 that was kind of fun. 00:46:35.219 --> 00:46:37.652 Did you care about that when I sent that to the family group chat thing? 00:46:38.179 --> 00:46:40.641 No, I don't even, I don't know. Do you even know what I'm talking about? 00:46:40.979 --> 00:46:43.576 No, I do know what it is, but I feel like part of me is like, 00:46:43.939 --> 00:46:47.771 they just put it on there for you to see it, so you would think. 00:46:48.059 --> 00:46:51.597 Okay, now are you, that's like, is that paranoid a little bit? 00:46:52.614 --> 00:46:55.139 Or, okay, because, so we were featured, okay, this is funny. 00:46:55.139 --> 00:47:00.536 We were featured on the like, exciting or upcoming trailers on the Apple podcast app, 00:47:00.939 --> 00:47:04.749 which I went and checked again today. So it's gone now because they only do like 10. 00:47:05.099 --> 00:47:08.593 But if you look at the podcast numbers from this pod news that I get every day, 00:47:08.939 --> 00:47:14.259 there are thousands of new podcasts every day. This is cool, but when I did you show me 00:47:14.259 --> 00:47:19.018 and then I looked on, I clicked on my podcast app and I scrolled and I scrolled and I couldn't find it. 00:47:19.099 --> 00:47:20.908 But it was on the, did you go to the trailers thing? 00:47:21.419 --> 00:47:22.744 No, right? 00:47:23.447 --> 00:47:26.497 It was cool that we were on the trailers thing do you think that i photoshopped it, 00:47:27.377 --> 00:47:31.108 that would be funny that would if i if i knew how that might have been kind of fun but i didn't 00:47:31.423 --> 00:47:35.483 well it's funny his mom had said let's see when's the podcast coming out and i was kind of like um 00:47:35.857 --> 00:47:40.817 it's like a couple days ago but this is really cool right here's the here's the trailer thing 00:47:40.965 --> 00:47:45.277 i did i have gone and looked a couple of times to see if we've made the top 200 in true crime 00:47:45.547 --> 00:47:50.497 which that i don't think that would be the case because there are over 20 000 true crime podcasts 00:47:50.804 --> 00:47:52.497 Ding! Isn't that crazy? 00:47:52.974 --> 00:47:56.497 Yeah, so we appreciate everybody that has tuned in and we will see you next time. 00:47:56.497 --> 00:47:59.753 Bye guys! on Murder on the Couch. 00:47:59.760 --> 00:48:16.125 Music.