Okay, ready, set. Hey, Sid. Hey, Dad. Welcome to episode two of Murder on the Couch.
Welcome back. Have you been mobbed by adoring fans when you've been out in public?
I can't even go outside.
Really? There's paparazzi. I know.
It's really overwhelming. Welcome to my world. Yeah. Right?
I don't know how you do it. Okay, so I have a funny therapist story to tell you.
Oh, I have a story for you too. Do you really? Yeah, I almost got hit by a train.
Wait, that has nothing to do with therapy.
Okay. I think we need to talk about that first. It kind of freaks me out a little bit though.
It was not good. Okay.
So, I was going to this coffee shop the other day and all the reviews were like, oh, it's
a hidden gem, you know, like hidden gems. So cute.
Yeah. The maps took me directly onto a train track. Like I'm not even kidding you. And I was like,
the lines started to look different than like the lines before. But in that moment I was
like, well, I don't really remember what the normal lines of the road look like. Cause
like, this is all I see in front of me.
Were the lines you were now seeing like crisscrossed with wooden panels on them?
Well, yes, but there was like cement. It was confusing. That's called a train tracking.
And so then like I look up and there was like genuinely a train in front of me.
Okay. And like I don't even...
In that moment, I was like actually just laughing because it was like, what is going on?
And then I like turned to the right and I'm not kidding you.
I literally had to dodge like the sticks coming down. Oh.
Okay, I'm glad that you feel safe enough to tell me that story, but that sounds like a lot. That was good.
It was good? It was fun. Did you end up making it to the coffee shop?
No. Really? No, I got there and then it was like, I don't know, I was just,
I wanted to go to one that I'd already been to before. Okay.
That I can't really explain to you. No, I didn't. I at least wanted to hear that. And you know what? It was amazing.
No, it's still never been. Okay.
Real hidden gem, that one. I would highly recommend if you want to go try that out again, that maybe have a friend drive.
Yeah, I think so.
Right? Okay. I want to say then, you know, speaking of friends, today's thing has something to do with a friend, but it kind of doesn't. No.
But here's why I think that what we're... Thank you for telling me that, by the way.
You're welcome. Yeah. Just because I often talk... Here's where the... We haven't even talked about the case yet,
but I do tell people that it means you have a good relationship with your kids if they can tell you insane things like that.
Because you know, I want to say, Sid, you could have gotten yourself killed
and you shouldn't, but that's a given.
I'm aware of that part. Exactly, so then I'm grateful that you feel like you can tell me.
Right, does that make sense?
Yeah, we got a good bond. We have a good bond, exactly. I don't know if I've told you this,
but not too long ago, your brother said, oh gosh, guys, I forgot to tell you,
I left the burner on the stove all day.
And I just thought that really was kind of a similar thing where I thought, oh, I would have never
told my parents anything.
Like you guys are still alive, okay, good. Right, exactly, right?
So, and I just, I thought, oh, cool, bro. Like, thanks for telling me.
I mean, cause I've done that too. So then I'm glad that you could tell me
that you ran onto the train tracks.
But just, I would, I feel as if it would not be a good thing to do it again.
Yes, thank you. I'm very much aware of that. There we go.
I don't plan on playing on the train tracks in my free time.
Okay, good. That's a good moment. But what was your therapy?
Okay, so when, this is gonna sound a little bit, I don't, I hope it doesn't sound egotistical,
but I've been a therapist for a long time.
Actually, how old are you? I know this, 21.
I was about to say I've been a therapist longer than you've been alive, but I haven't.
So I think I've been a therapist 16, 17 years.
And when you start out as a therapist, you're just trying to get your hours.
You have to get your college degree and you have to get your master's degree and then
you have to get 3000 hours as an intern.
So you're just taking anybody that will come in.
And so then you always have to go over all these things. Welcome to therapy and we have confidentiality except for certain situations.
And the reason I'm setting this up is I've been fortunate enough to be in a position
now where I can be a little more picky, a little more choosy with my clientele.
So I often don't get new clients. So it's funny because now when I get one, I'm almost giddy and I feel bad because nobody
comes into therapy just to pay somebody to say, hey, everything's great.
But I'm sitting there going, it's so exciting to see you, you know, because I'm meeting
this new person that I almost forget to go over the basics.
And what you have to talk about is that everything you say to a therapist is confidential unless
they tell you that they are going to hurt themselves or, and here's where the like,
the sound effects, right?
Or if you are going to help or hurt other people and so then, and then that gets really
specific. So, if somebody says, you know, if somebody says, man, and I just want to go home and
just, you know, murder my husband, they'll usually joke and say, I mean, not really.
And I'll say, oh, okay, good. But I really don't think they're going to, but you have to, you have this thing and as
a therapist called duty to warn.
So if this, like in this hypothetical situation, if the woman said, no, I'm literally gonna go home
and murder my husband. I've got the gun in the trunk of my car and he gets home about 6.30.
I've been making sure that he's pretty consistent with that.
The kids are out at their grandmother's house. So, oh, I'm totally gonna do it.
Then guess what I have to do.
Warn him. Yeah. Yeah, which then it feels a little weird because it's like now I'm breaking confidentiality
And what if she's only kidding around or you know, and it's kind of an insane judgment call for you to have to yeah
I'm sure yeah, it's like are they joking? Are they mentally ill? Are they? Yeah a murderer totally
And so so then I love that what we're talking about today is,
It's literally because of a case that happened and it's funny because as a therapist you you talk about their
Tarasoff rights or Tarasoff warning. And I've always thought that Tarasoff was just some fancy
psychology word. Sounds like a computer program, right? But it turns out somebody's name.
Yeah. This, this case is about Tatiana Tarasoff and she is the reason why this confidentiality
thing that you're talking about was ever put into place because the system completely failed this
girl, like completely failed her. It's so sad. Like so many. So this is a stalking case. Okay.
What we're going to be talking about today. And it's just insane how over and over again,
nobody warned this poor girl.
And I want you to know, I don't know about this case. And that's what I like about the
dynamic that we're doing here is that I know of it, that that is a reason why we do duty to warn.
But you already told me before that it's pretty crazy, right?
Yeah. Yeah, it is. So while I was researching it, it's only really well-known in like the psychology space.
The actual case itself? Yeah. Yeah.
And that was kind of batshit to me when I was reading more into it because it's really crazy.
This guy was like an insane stalker and it reminds me a lot of... Have you seen You?
Oh yeah, I have. Do you like that? Yeah. Okay. First of all, can we stop making serial killers hot?
Am I right? Am I right? Is he hot? Yes, he's beautiful. He's an attractive guy. Okay.
Like, why are we doing that? It's so... It's such a mind...
Okay. So can I ask you on that note? Have you ever, did you watch a bunch of the things about Ted Bundy?
Uh, yeah.
You can't put Troy Bolton as Ted Bundy. Are you kidding me? Well, because I was going to say, they would always say Ted Bundy was so handsome.
And then I would look at those pictures and I would think, was he?
No, he wasn't. But Joe is on you and then Troy Bolton, High School Musical.
Is that who that was? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. He's an, yeah. He's an attractive man.
So, yeah. But so, so we're talking about Duty to Warn and this guy, all I know is,
I think it had to do with, he was like a college student in Berkeley.
And so then that's literally all I know so I'm gonna sit back today and do a lot of uh, wow
And oh my gosh, you will be trusted.
Music.
I do want to also point out that you are actually working off of the literal court case, the
court document, which I think is really cool.
Yes. And I've been doing a lot of research on this and this single court case document has more
details than any of the podcasts I've listened to, any of the articles I've looked into.
Like this is legit and it's crazy. Well, and for anybody who doesn't really know, and we can put a link to this actually, right?
Yeah, yeah.
It really is the like, you know, the state of California versus the guy or whatever who got
arrested for it. Hey, and while you're about to start too, the one last thing I'll say about the
therapist piece because I don't think this will come into play with anything we're talking about.
So, you have to tell yourself, yeah, there's three things. I'm going to break confidentiality
if you're going to hurt yourself, others and then there's been a lot as the population gets older,
it's old people. See, I almost have to call out or the elderly because of elderly abuse.
But even the one about if you're going to harm yourself, I appreciate when you're saying earlier,
It's almost like this judgment call because it's that concept where if I say to somebody have you ever thought about killing yourself?
It's like the reality is I feel most everybody has had the thought, you know, but I thought every thought yeah
That's what I think. Yeah, and if I tell somebody right now, oh, no, I'm sure you haven't your own brains probably like oh
Well, I'm thinking about it right now. Oh my gosh What's wrong with me, right?
And so even that has been interesting because early on in my career if somebody said man
Sometimes I just I just don't even want to live, you know, you're kind of going. Oh crap
Do I have to warn somebody? So then you talk it through more because as a therapist, you actually
want a safe place for somebody to be able to say. Isn't that wild? And that's crazy thinking
about it like that, because you have to make the judgment call. Am I going to?
Tell somebody about this and potentially kind of put a stop in this person's recovery yeah it's honestly cuz i can remember without me i'll stay so far away from details but
somebody a long time ago that i was working with and this person got really really animated they were emotionally overwhelmed in a session and they were just saying it and then i really felt like it was one of the more intense times or somebody saying she felt suicidal
And so, I was saying, okay, you know what, I think this is the thing where I really need to check in with you and I might need to call somebody and he got even madder because or they got even madder, I was going to try not to point out that it was a male or female.
But they got even more angry because they were saying, wait, I thought you were a safe place.
And I remember I can feel that in my gut today thinking about that, but the person did not, they ended up, they were in a bad relationship and now I understand that they, you know, it's this concept where the body keeps the score with trauma.
And if they didn't feel like they had an out to get out of an unhealthy relationship.
The brain starts saying, OK, I've tried anxiety, I've tried depression, I've tried anger and you're
still in it. What if I just throw out there under your mind? OK, how about suicide? And
instead of the person going, oh, man, my brain is saying I got to get out, you know, because it
doesn't even want to be to live if I'm going to be in this relationship. But then when she's saying
it, then all of a sudden I'm going like, oh, I don't know, because then if I would have broken
that confidentiality now I know in that case her husband would have totally used that against her
for the kids and you know what I mean yeah so it's crazy it's a really fine line you have to
yeah yeah so anyway so that's why I do I'm so curious about like the so there's the you know
if you're gonna hurt yourself and now let's talk about if you're gonna hurt others yes okay okay
so let's start off by talking about Tatiana Tarasov okay she was born on the 22nd of January
1949 so this is a long time ago yeah and I'm 53 I was born in 69 she was born in
49 so she would have been 73 she was born in Shanghai municipality China I
Oh, I did not know that.
And yeah, so she then moved to Brazil.
And until she was 14, she lived in Brazil with her family. Her parents were, I think, Russian immigrants.
Okay. And... Oh wait, actually, let me pull this up on our court document. Okay.
So she was born to Russian immigrant parents in China. And she came to the United States with her family in 1963 when she was 14 years old.
From there, she attended the Merritt College in Oakland. And she took a morning class in Berkeley.
Okay, at the University of California, Berkeley, right? Yes.
Which is a really smart school.
Is it? Yeah, yeah, it really is. Yeah, that's part of why when I found out that this all happened there, I just, I don't.
Know why, but sometimes, you know, we think these silly things where, well, wait, smart
people can't be this crazy.
Oh, but they are. Yeah. They are. Sometimes even more crazy.
I know, right. I feel like you'd say.
Yeah. Her parents were super strict. So she was growing up under a lot of that kind of pressure.
Like they wouldn't let her wear makeup. They wouldn't let her hang out with all the people she wanted to.
She could like only go places like with her brother and stuff.
So she would sneak out of the house to put on makeup and like all that stuff.
Like she was willing to be herself regardless of her parents holding her back.
She had to kind of do it on her own.
Yeah. So one of the activities that her parents would let her do was go to these folk dances in Berkeley.
And this is where she's going to meet this stalker. Okay, what's his name?
I feel like his- His name is Proshin G. Potter.
Okay. And he is going to be- And Potter, I think I remember it's P-O-D-D-A-R,
because I won't, not like Harry Potter.
No. Okay. The opposite. Thank you.
Yeah, we could call her that. I already forgot how to pronounce the other one.
So Tanya's parents would let her go to these folk dances only because her brother would
drive her there and her brother would drive her back, so he was with her the whole time.
Her brother's name is Alex, by the way, and he'll be more pertinent to the story as we go on.
So at these dances, she met Prasenjit Potter. Let's talk about him.
He is actually not from America. He was from India.
So he grew up in the lowest social class in India. they were known as the untouchables.
Oh, wow. Yeah, so from some sources I looked at, it's very extreme, like no electricity,
no running water, like that kind of situation.
So it was actually, he was one of only a handful of people in the untouchables to go to an American school.
Oh, that was probably a big deal. Yeah, so it was a very big deal.
And it's unclear exactly why he got to, I would assume maybe he was exceptionally smart.
I mean, that's what I was gonna say. I would imagine, because Berkeley is a really hard school
to even get into, yeah.
So it was a big deal for his family that he was getting sent over to America.
I think his dad had to drop like 6,000 rupees or something to send him over and it was a very big deal.
And I guess how it was like, I mean, and I don't really know but my guess was he was kind of the family's one shot
at getting out of this social class.
So that was a lot of pressure. Yeah, because I mean, when you're an untouchable.
Like it's really hard to move up. Like I think it's basically impossible
and it's hard for them to get the same
like marriage rights, I guess, like job opportunities, like all that stuff.
So this was a big deal. You know, when I was in the software industry before I became a therapist,
we did a couple of deals with a company that had some people from India that were programmers.
And I remember being so fascinated because I learned that India has,
At the time, I swear it was like 1.3 billion people, but it was only, I think it's the third
of the size of the US.
And at the time, the US had, I think, three or 400 million in the whole country.
So it's like, they're just packed, you know? Yeah. It's so sad.
It's so sad to think about. And just kind of even saying that,
so this guy had a chance to change his and probably his entire family's life. Yeah.
And it's even sadder to think about his family in that position, like putting it all,
his father putting it all out on the line and then his son just goes and does this.
Potter is in Berkeley and he's immediately already just very socially awkward.
A lot of articles refer to it as like culture shock Oh. because I guess like dating is different.
In india obviously but i also think that it's very kind of messed up to water it all down to
culture shock because with the way that he was acting i know that that's not protocol anywhere
i really hope it's not you know what i mean yeah it's funny to sit in this is i appreciate this
got some good feedback from our first episode we have a nice vibe because there's that part of me
the therapist in me that still wants to not give everybody this overall break but the old they
don't know what they don't know or you know but then i can't i'm with you i feel like that certain
points though, if he was good enough to be picked to come over to America from this untouchable
class, I would imagine that there was at least some common sense. Yeah. Yeah. But I guess not.
Yeah. He was living on campus in college for naval architecture. Naval architecture. I don't
even know what that is. I feel like I was building submarines or boats. Something like that. Some
man thing. I don't know. A lot of sources actually said that it took Potter a year to even get the
courage to go down to these folk dances. So, he was really going through it before that, I guess.
When he finally did is when he met Tanya. And he just fell in love with her instantly.
Just instantly obsessed with her. So, I think they might've danced a little bit,
might've talked, but he was ready to pursue her and she just wasn't that into it.
It's a trip too because if he was from this untouchable class and I'm in here
look at me making this assumption that we're talking arranged marriage we're
talking and now here he is in America and he's captivated at this folk dance
by this beautiful Tanya and he's thinking this greatest thing ever I will have her. Yeah. Right? He's enthralled by her he's he wants to be with her all the
time and she's just not reciprocating the same feelings. Is that kind of awkward? It is
really awkward because you don't want to hurt the person but at the same time you
I don't want to lead them on.
And I'm sure that's a big thing that she was going through. It was like, how do I let him off slowly?
Or how do I, you know? Oh, there's a, and it's funny,
cause I love the fact that you edit my TikTok.
So maybe you've heard me like talk about this before, but there's a part where I feel like it is the kind person
that sometimes finds themselves in these almost pursuer withdrawer relationships.
Because if she would have been somebody that from the immediate start was just like, no,
I said no, then he would, you know, it was like, geez, okay.
But if she's like, oh, maybe, I don't know. Okay. In her defense though, this guy is crazy.
Oh, it just straight up.
I don't even think Noah would have done anything. So he just locked in.
It's almost like he just didn't listen to what, like everything she said to him,
he just heard it as like the opposite of what it was. He was just missing every cue.
He is immediately obsessed with her.
So they dance together, they talk for a little bit and.
Did they have phones? Did he get her phone number? No. Well, okay. That's a funny, this is back in the 60s. So
he would have got her landline number. Isn't that funny?
So weird. They start to see each other. They get along, but it is a lot more.
On Potter's side than her side, if you know what I mean.
Yeah. So he's thinking like, this is the most incredible thing ever. And she's like,
we dance, we talk. I found my wife and she's just casually talking to people, casually dating, just like talking to,
you know, like she just, she goes to these dances every week.
You know? So they start seeing each other like once a week up until New Year's Eve.
And on New Year's Eve, they kiss in the elevator. Now, Potter clings onto this, okay? This is my wife.
We've kissed. It's done. We've kissed. She's pregnant. Okay.
Okay. I'm sorry. Don't forget where you're going with this.
Did you ever think that as a little kid? Yes. That's literally what I thought. Did you really? Yeah.
Okay. I have a bone to pick with you, you know? Why? Okay, if you think that we weren't just,
did the most amazing job at having the talk.
Do you want to know where I got the birds and the bees, everybody?
Were you at the claim jumper or were you at the fish pond? My favorite Mexican restaurant.
Oh, did we like ruin that for you?
Never the same. Are you, okay, so. Never the same. This is so funny,
because I have like told that, you know, because we would be very intentional about it, right?
You remember that? And we'd say, hey, we got a real cool date and you get to go out with mom and dad
and we take you to your favorite place. Little did I know. And your life is gonna be changed forever
and you're gonna hate it. And every one of you guys, and we would like tell you how it works.
Yeah, there was always like that. What?
Oh, okay. Now, as a therapist said, it's called the relational frame,
that when you put something, two things together, they can be put together.
Like now when I think of this, I think of that.
Little did I know now that every time you think of Mexican food, you think of-
My favorite wet burrito, I think of children being made.
Okay, I'm so sorry.
It's okay. Okay. Look at this therapy session. I know, it's very, I mean,
and I'm sitting with the discomfort and saying, isn't that funny?
Because I honestly thought that mom and I, I always thought we did a really nice job with that.
But I think as we've talked with each one of you guys individually, it's been like,
That was kind of crazy.
So I don't know if there is a way to say it. I don't know, this is why I'm never having kids
is because I don't want to have to figure out how to do any of this.
I'm cool. Oh, wait, was it Cafe Delicious? It was La Via. Oh, La Via. So good.
Okay, locals, yeah, Victor at La Via. I think you owe Sydney lots of free burritos
to get her back in good graces, right?
Okay. Okay, where were we? Well, they kissed each other,
so you said that then he's like, oh, she's pregnant.
Yeah, so he's obsessed with her and at this point she gives it to him straight. She's like, I'm not really interested in you
I'm I'm talking to other guys, you know, like this isn't a serious thing. He's like we kissed
Yeah, he doesn't take no for an answer. At this point, he just...
He recoils and recoils at the right word is a great word. He's like a hermit
Okay, so he's just staying in his room all the time. Okay, he starts missing work
he starts using classes like people are saying like his eyes almost had like a glaze over there Wow and,
He was just obsessed with this girl who wanted and she had rejected him. Yeah, okay
Is this where then I forgot the whole thing where is this where now he goes and sees a therapist?
Almost. Okay. Okay. But not yet.
At this point, Podar had already sent a letter home to his parents saying that he had met
the love of his life. Oh. Saying like, oh yeah, like her parents already want to know me.
Oh, so he was lying. He was lying.
Fully lying. Okay. They were in zero relationship at this point.
Okay. It was like a happy new year kiss. Yeah. Sees her at a dance every now and again.
Sees him and then, but he wrote already, this is it.
Which thinking about it now, like we were talking about earlier, maybe he felt like
he had something to prove to his parents back at home or something.
Part of me wonders because that untouchable stuff, I mean, I can't lie, during one of
your pee breaks, which we have a few, right?
We'd be peeing. Right? But I like just, I was looking at one of the notes and it just said that, I didn't realize
those untouchables, it said that he was one of the only people that ever left India to come to the US.
Yeah. So I can imagine that he's got to like do, make everybody proud.
Again, not trying to excuse the behavior.
No, yeah, I've got it all. In fact, there's no excuse for this. It's creepy.
Tanya is just not into it. It's not working and he doesn't know what to do.
So instead of like a normal person moving on to someone else or, you know, getting on Tinder.
They didn't have Tinder. Ha! That's funny. They didn't have anything like that.
He instead became best friends with her brother, Alex. Oh, he's going to take what the end around there.
Yeah, he's getting in any way that he can. He really is, huh?
Yeah, so he meets Alex and it's funny how they meet, okay? So they meet because Poddar is calling the landline
to Tanya's house and Tanya wants nothing to do to it. Oh, but who else is gonna answer?
Exactly. Alex. Yeah, Tanya wants nothing to do with it. So she hands the phone off to her big brother.
And he tells Poddar off.
He's like, don't talk to my sister. She doesn't want you, like leave her alone.
Then does Poddar say, man, you know what? You sound like a nice guy.
I think you, I understand.
You're like, hey, what are you doing later? Right. Like the sound of that voice.
Oh, don't you wish we knew, like had recordings of those kinds of calls?
Yeah, that would be really crazy.
So they had that fight over the telephone and then Poddar actually asked if they could meet in person.
He and Alex? Poddar, Alex, and Tanya.
Oh. Alex says yes, and they meet at a gas station a few blocks away from Tanya's house.
And apparently Poddar had written down on a piece of paper a list of things in which he thought Tanya was insulting him.
Oh, he's gonna start gaslighting.
And so Alex is looking at this list and he's like, what is this?
Like, Alex explains to him that these aren't things that are a problem.
Okay. Maybe that's part of that culture shift. Well, okay, so another thing, I was looking at that,
the Untouchables, they do arrange marriage. And so I wonder if he was saying,
oh no, I will be marrying you.
And she said, no. Oh, she kissed me. We've been on dates and she's not, yeah, maybe.
So then if he's saying, you don't understand, she kissed me and I told her I wanted to marry her. So, therefore.
She can't insult me. We must be married. So they have this little altercation at the gas station.
And you would think that it would end there, but Alex takes Tanya to one of the dances again,
and Potter's there again.
Okay.
And he invites them up to his room. Potter does? Yes, they go and says.
He showed Alex a series of electronic inventions of his, which interested Alex,
and thereafter the two men became close friends.
Oh, so he just said, He said, okay, I get it. I'm not being very nice to your sister,
but check out these things I've made. You wanna play with my toys?
Alex, and like a guy does, it's like, well, those are kind of cool toys. Yeah, literally.
So at this point, they become close friends and they move in together.
So now Poddar is living with Alex, Tanya's brother. And he, at this point, is still so obsessed with Tanya.
Alex says that he remembers an incident in 1969, the same year that they met,
when Potter was talking about, I guess, some money that somebody owed Alex.
And Alex commented that if he didn't get the money paid back to him, he would beat the other person up.
Okay.
Potter's response to that was that he wouldn't beat them up, he would kill them. Whoa. Yeah.
If he killed someone, he would turn himself in and take the penalty for it.
Alex owned a pellet gun, and he also remembers another occasion
where Potter asked him if you could use this gun
to kill a person. Wow.
Alex said he didn't know and Poddar said, where can I get a regular gun?
So there's already just so many like- Red flags. Yeah, Alex told him that he didn't think he could get one.
And it just kind of stopped there. Okay. So, while they were living together,
Poddar was not quite about his love for Alex's sister.
He would tell Alex how in love he was with his sister, and that he wanted to marry her,
that he was so obsessed with her. It was very clear to the people around Poddar
that he was not acting okay.
So, at this point, one of his friends tells him, hey, I think you should see a psychologist.
Interesting. And he actually does go. Okay.
And sees a psychologist. And I think that in this one too,
because I remember just from the little bits I looked over,
they do talk about psychiatrists, which is the one that can prescribe medications.
And then sometimes I read psychologists, which is one that more does like clinical assessments and talk therapy.
So I'm with you. He saw some mental health professional. This is where the system just completely fails Tanya.
Because at these sessions, I think his therapist was Dr. Moore.
Yeah, James Moore? James Moore.
He was talking about wanting to kill Tanya. he was very clearly showing, you know,
that like he was not okay.
And Dr. Moore talked about how he was going back and forth at this point.
Like, do I tell someone, do I keep it to myself?
And he didn't know what to do. And I guess his rule of thumb at that point was
you can't predict future violence if there isn't past violence.
Yeah, and so he had not killed anybody so far. He really hadn't even had much violent,
he hadn't had any police reports or anything like that.
I hate that concept, it's like then we're just gonna be cleaning up messes forever. I know and it's so... You can't get to the core if you don't...
No and it's so crazy too Syd because I still I can only think of it from the lens of from day one of graduate school
you're told duty to warn, duty to warn and so I can't even imagine,
what's that stuff called where it's like you try to put today's stuff on it's called I think it's called presentism.
So then we try to go back and lay out you know what we know now at that time and so there was nobody talking about duty to warn like this is the reason why
why there is duty to warn.
So it's just such a trip to think, I don't know if he was even talking to other therapists.
I don't know if he had a consultation group. I don't know if he had a mentor, you know?
So at some point, it was just all him going back and forth.
Sources said that at this point, he was even recording conversations with Tanya.
Whenever they would hang out, he would record the entire conversation
and then go back and listen to it later.
Wow. It said he was like looking for inconsistencies in their friendship.
To try to prove to her that she was...
I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
So at this point, his therapist is concerned. They think that he was showing signs of schizophrenia.
Oh, wow. That's a whole different thing. I'll tell you that here you can edit this out or in or whatever.
But so what's fascinating is I have worked with a couple of people that I would say do
experience those concepts of like paranoia or around paranoid schizophrenic.
So I had one one time that just said mentioned that they were around a bunch of people.
One of the people that was talking mentioned something about a particular color of shirt
and this guy was wearing that color of shirt. So, then it's interesting because he just said,
so obviously the guy was talking about me. And he said, and so at that point then the client said,
and since he was talking about me, then I could tell that everybody else understood that too.
And then they all started laughing at the story he was telling, which meant they were laughing at me.
And he said, and then finally I just, I'd had enough. And so, that concept around paranoia
can be really, really woven into everything. So, the person's creating this narrative that
just fits the concept that everybody is out to get them or talking about them.
Yeah. It's kind of, it's really scary to think, like, what was going on in his head. Like,
if he were to tell this story, it would be so different. Oh, yeah. For real.
He'd be like, oh, yeah, she looked at me for half a second and I knew.
And that's it. I knew. She wanted me.
Totally. And this is that thing, it's actually called nonviolent communication, but where
we make an observation and we put in our own judgment to try to make sense of something.
So it's like if he observes her, then he makes the judgment of, well, she likes me too. She's
just afraid to admit it. So then if she does anything other than says, oh yeah, I like you.
I'm just afraid to admit it, then he even tells himself she's not even being honest with herself.
You know, it's crazy. You have to separate your observation from your judgment because then you can have a little more curiosity,
But that's you have to actively work on doing that. There was actually a letter written to the campus police
Okay, that said he's not okay. Like he's a danger to other people okay, and the campus police go to Alex and Potter's apartment and they interview him and.
They declared that he's okay. Mmm. Oh it cuz he just says no, I'm good. I get it. Yeah
All right, I'll back off.
So at this point, this letter is just, it's dropped, it's destroyed.
He's let go and nobody warned Tanya.
Nobody warned anyone. And that's the part where it's just so crazy.
It's like, even if there was this interview and even if he talked his way out of it,
does she not have the right to know that he's literally talking to his therapist
about killing her? About trying to kill her, yeah.
Yeah, and it's just like so unfair because it's like from her side of it,
I'm sure she was already terrified of this guy. There's even more, he would wait at her bus stops.
He would follow her home, like trying to meet her wherever he could.
And- I wonder what Alex was like at that time, being his roommate and him,
because I would imagine if he's recording her and he's telling his therapist and he's stalking her,
that I would imagine he couldn't not talk about her.
Exactly, and that's the thing that I don't really understand is he was talking about her.
It says right here that he would tell Alex about his obsession with his sister.
And Alex just said he didn't think that Poddar would keep his word.
So his initial roommate, Mystery, would be one of the guys that he would tell a lot
about his unrequited love with Tonya to.
And Mystery recounted an incident where Poddar threatened to take Tonya's life.
Mystery told Poddar that he felt compelled to report it to the police.
And all Poddar said was, In that case, I'll have to kill you, too.
Whoa. What are you going to do about it? Wow!
So, I guess that must have shut him up for the time being. As it, you know, can't blame someone too much.
At about this time, he also told a fellow co-worker that he would get even with Tanya
by blowing up the block on which she lived.
He later even talked about blowing up her house. And finally, blowing up her room.
So, okay, you're telling former roommates, current roommates, his psychiatrist, his psychologist, co-workers.
And somehow she still doesn't know yeah, like it's just it's really upsetting
So Tonya leaves for Brazil in June of 1969 Tonya gets back from Brazil. This is in September
Potter is not seeing the psychologist anymore. Mm-hmm, so,
He's just a pit of nothing at this point. He spends hours in his room crying
He's just he's an absolute mess pit of nothing first reference that would make a good name for an alternative band.
And at this point too, it's funny not funny It's sad
but I've had those clients before where when they come in all they want you to do is tell them they're right and then tell
Them that they're justified and whatever that is They want to do and when you don't then they stop seeing you. So I mean when he says he stops seeing the,
Psychologist I would imagine it's because the psychologist is probably telling them. Yeah, that's not cool
Yeah, like she doesn't love you. Yeah, exactly move on if it's not validating him, then he doesn't want to hear exactly.
Which is not what therapy is all about Challenge and self-confrontation and all that stuff
Have you ever had a good experience with someone?
Sending somebody else to therapy because I feel like part of it you kind of have to choose to go by yourself
So, okay, you know, I honestly I love that question because my initial response would be no because the person has to want it
But then one of the things I like about being a therapist is if somebody comes in I will often say I don't have a
Magic wand. I don't have a magic pill. So if you're gonna be here, then let me just ask you questions
Let's get to know you and then often I think if the person feels like therapy isn't a bad experience
Then they're willing to come a little bit more and then you can start to ease into what help would look like
So I have now I can say I've had good experiences like that But I've of course never had anything like this. You kind of do have to want to change
Oh, you do. Oh, you totally do. And some people do come into therapy basically without even
understanding what it is and just wanting somebody to validate them. Because so often,
people that are just walking around, like in this scenario, if you were just walking around
telling everybody, this girl doesn't love me, but she should because she's done all these things and,
I'm the best for her and I would be amazing. Then they're so used to everybody either tuning
them out or telling them, yeah, but you need to understand. So, all you do is you go to a
therapist who says, man, that sounds hard. And then they say, oh, see, he gets it. He understands.
So you can see all kinds of things when somebody doesn't really, if they're not really there, to try to improve.
So at this point, Podar is following her to every bus stop.
Won't leave her alone, he's stalking her. But I guess no one could do anything about it
because there wasn't violence yet.
Oh, right. Oh, that's sad, too. That one is, yeah.
What are the police even for? I don't just don't understand that.
On the Friday before the killing, Alex, the brother, and Poddar had a fight
over the fact that Poddar wasn't going to his work.
And Alex punches him and, like, knocks him over. Now we move on to the murder.
Okay. So this is October 27th, 1969 in the morning.
Poddar is literally stalking the house. It's said that he was like waiting outside a bush or something.
And he goes up, he knocks on the door and asks for Tanya and Tanya's not home.
So his mom answers and his mom, everyone knows who this guy is at this point.
You know, like he is a target in this family. So the mom tells him off.
She's like, she doesn't want you, get out of here. Like leave my daughter alone.
And he leaves for about three hours. Tanya's mom said that he just looked so shady.
He was wearing a hoodie and he had his hands in his pockets the whole time and he wouldn't move them out of his pockets.
He knew Tanya's entire schedule at this point.
Oh, I'm sure. So he knew that evening Alex and the mom would be gone because I think they were like taking her sister
to ballet practice or something.
So Poddar knew that she would be alone in the house.
So that night, he comes back after waiting out in a bush for the rest of her family to leave.
He walks up to the door, knocks and asks for Tanya and Tanya obviously does not want to see him.
She's not happy to see him and she's telling him off.
And at this point, he pulls out a gun and shoots her.
And she like tries to you know save herself at this point like attack him or
something and then he stabs her to death. Wow.
Right there in her front porch? Right on her front porch. Wow.
I'm wondering, do you know if anybody responded or? It wasn't even that late at night, I don't think.
There was like three witnesses, like so many of the neighbors,
like a little neighbor boy saw her, like saw the whole struggle, like everyone heard it.
He walks into the house, picks up their landline, and calls the police and says,
I just murdered my girlfriend. Whoa.
Turn me in. Wow, okay. Not your girlfriend.
Nope, that's a trip. So they come arrest him. How did it come out about the duty to warn?
So then did the family sue?
Yeah, so the family was very upset at this point. Everything started coming out about the psychiatrist,
and all of this information. There's a fancy lawyer word for it that I think I wrote down somewhere.
No, I just wrote laws change. Laws change.
Okay, let's find it. A new precedent was set or something. So Tarasov's parents sued Moore and other employees
at the university who were in charge of all of this.
And Poddar was then convicted of second degree murder. This is when that law came to pass.
Okay, the Tarasov duty to warn.
So in that, everything was good.
I mean, I'm sure it has saved a lot of lives over the years.
This is crazy to me too, because this is the case that made this Tarasov law, right?
Tell me why Poddar is out of prison and he only served four years really out on manslaughter,
And they sent him back to India, and he's married to an attorney with a kid.
I did not see that coming.
I sometimes want to even go look it up and say, man, I wonder if you could write him a letter in prison right now.
But he got out after four years.
He's out. And so I guess that it was something that had to do with the jury.
It wasn't even with the actual case.
It had been inadequately instructed.
Oh, my goodness. And they let him go. And this part is just such so mind-boggling to me because he is the reason if you look up the Tarasoff case
If you look up why this law was created. Yeah, the guy who murdered her is out.
So We okay, so you could like interview it. Maybe it's like, oh, I mean, hopefully he's not want to call in. No
I don't or but I appreciate I think you laid out a nice,
case of that it seemed like almost everybody knew that he was this stalker this pariah from the therapist to the cops to the brother to the friend to her
family to Tanya and so it is interesting I'm not saying that then the therapist
is the one that took the brunt of it I mean I know that all this had to happen
in essence so that then this law was passed but it does seem like there's a
lot of people that knew yeah and this was a long time ago but I still see this
happening with cases today, especially with cases of stalking. The police won't do anything until,
there's violence. Which is like, are we just hoping that they're not good at murder?
It is weird. Yeah.
I really wish that they would take these kinds of cases more seriously.
There is starting to, because I do so much with narcissism and personality disorders,
and I remember doing an episode a few months ago. There are some states that are starting to pass
more of these like restraining orders, peaceful contact restraining orders. So, you don't even
have to have a physical abuse to then be able to file a restraining order. But then there are
are people that are arguing that, okay, what if the person is just being.
Like if the person filing the restraining order is doing it just to be, you know, difficult,
or is it the person that is being difficult than having the restraining order filed against them?
But again, with the population I work with, I would rather have somebody default to give,
them the restraining order than not. Yeah. It's all situational, which makes it hard.
So hard. But you're right though. Step in the right direction. Yeah. But the part where then,
I mean, I've literally had clients that have been trying to get out of like really bad
relationships and it sounds so bad to say this, but then the person will get hit, you know,
The other one will get really drunk and then they'll come in and they'll hit them or push them
And then they almost call that like this the golden ticket because now the cops are involved and then it's a whole different ballgame
Now they can get the restraining order and they you know, they feel justified in filing for divorce or it's just such a mind.
Fuck that you have to get it is hurt before you can get protected it is but but and I think as you remember in the even in the abby choi case and then
and even a lot of the TikToks that we've been doing and stuff, that the emotionally abusive person
creates a trauma bond and they give the person just enough peace that then they start to feel like,
well, it's not that bad.
But then the person that is the narcissist or the emotionally immature just is relentless
and they're trying to figure out any way to get into that person's life.
Yeah. Like being friends with her brother. Exactly, yeah. Or then the police come over and it's like,
No, I get it. It's probably this letter I wrote, you know, it's, I get it.
It's okay. For Alex, he must've felt so guilty. I appreciate you saying that
because I feel bad about that too. Yeah, because like part,
like there was a couple of times where I'm telling this
where I almost want to like shit on him a little bit, but I can't because I just, there's no way, you know,
he could have, there's no way he was aware.
I mean, maybe he was. I don't know. All this stuff is so crazy.
I mean. So when you say like what you were wanting to poop on him,
my, my, does your ADHD picture everything? and now I can't help but think of you doing that,
which I think is kind of interesting.
I don't think it's- Did I even say that? I don't even know what I said.
I just speak- Well, you didn't say poop.
And deal with the repercussions. But I'm glad we said that though,
because I feel like that's the part where I have felt as well.
I can't imagine how he feels. I cannot even imagine, because in hindsight, part of the grief and loss,
I don't know if you've heard this, the stages of grief and loss,
denial, anger, bargaining.
Depression and acceptance, the bargaining phase is often when you go back and say,
man, I could have done something. I should have done something different. And people
will beat themselves up about that for years. Like I do deal with that in therapy quite often.
And you can't, you know, it isn't productive or helpful. Okay. So then on the notes on the case,
so I did do just a real quick dive as a therapist and I thought this was interesting. So Potter saw
Dr. Moore seven times and then on that seventh therapy session, so this was August of 69. So
he killed her in October, I think it was October 22nd or 27th. Potter already confessed that he
planned to kill Tanya and then he diagnosed Potter of having an acute and severe paranoid
schizophrenic reaction. And then I thought this was interesting, he and two other doctors then
determined that Potter should be committed to a psychiatric hospital and that's when they
contacted the police. But then that was when the police only briefly, you know, they went and had
the conversation and yeah, and they let him go because he said, I won't do it anymore.
And so here's where from the therapist angle, things get a little sketchy,
that it says following Potdar's release from that detainment,
not from four years later from prison, but this Dr. Harvey Powelson,
who was Dr. Moore's supervisor.
Then he instructed the police to return the letter from Dr. Moore, instructing them to detain Potdar,
order that the letter and all the notes that the therapist had taken on Potdar be destroyed,
and instructed Dr. Moore to take no other action in detaining Potdar.
So that was like the Moore, the Dr. Moore's boss said,
okay, if you guys aren't gonna do anything about it,
then let's destroy all the notes.
Let's tuck it under the rug kind of thing. Yeah, so I feel like that should have been
something there too, right? So then the doctors who examined Poddar then
never even notified Tanya or any of the family
about his threatening statements.
And then Poddar never went back to therapy and then killed her as planned.
It's just so messed up because like I said before, she obviously was already scared of him.
The family was already scared of him.
Yeah. But they didn't know that they were getting.
Threats for their house to be blown. Yeah. Yeah, like that's even like the mom and the dad probably would have wanted to know that
Too, you know, there's I think so. No, there's just bomb that's to your house, but the whole thing confidential
Yeah, it's really really crazy. I also wanted to add this in. Mm-hmm He didn't kill her with a regular gun. He killed her with a pellet gun
Oh, so that just kind of like push me like took her by surprise or yeah, and I don't I can't find anything on here,
but,
If I remember right the only person who had a pellet gun was Alex and,
Alex told him that he had no other way of getting a gun So, I don't know if that's the gun that was used Wow if it is that's just even more sick and twisted and sad. Yeah,
So Sid now every single time I get a new client and I say hey duty to warn I'm gonna point me. I'm gonna duty,
I'm gonna point them to this episode. Yes, okay Okay, so we're wrapping it up.
So how's the weather? It's actually not very good, it's raining.
It's sunny though right now. It is, yeah. I wore shoes, well, it doesn't matter.
I say that, get wet.
Please, please delete that part.
Okay, you could make me sound like a complete buffoon too. You know that, right?
Should I edit something really weird right now? Oh, please.
Just make you say the most out of pocket sentence ever. No, and this, I noticed that this episode
we didn't say any phrases that I didn't know.
I think I could even probably take a guess at what out-of-pocket means as well as other things.
You wanna take it out-of-pocket? That one's easy.
Yeah, I know what it is. So anyway, thanks, Sid. Murder on the couch, number two, done.
Really blew me off with that one. Because I'm worried that what if I really don't know
what it means? That's fair.
Right, okay. So we'll- No one's watching anymore. No, exactly.
So we'll see you- We're the only people here. Next week. Oh, subscribe and like and all that stuff.
That's funny. Though people don't really say that anymore though, right?
I don't know, do your thing. Oh yeah, I would be grateful. We were featured on Apple's something,
that was kind of fun.
Did you care about that when I sent that to the family group chat thing?
No, I don't even, I don't know. Do you even know what I'm talking about?
No, I do know what it is, but I feel like part of me is like,
they just put it on there for you to see it, so you would think.
Okay, now are you, that's like, is that paranoid a little bit?
Or, okay, because, so we were featured, okay, this is funny.
We were featured on the like, exciting or upcoming trailers on the Apple podcast app,
which I went and checked again today. So it's gone now because they only do like 10.
But if you look at the podcast numbers from this pod news that I get every day,
there are thousands of new podcasts every day. This is cool, but when I did you show me
and then I looked on, I clicked on my podcast app and I scrolled and I scrolled and I couldn't find it.
But it was on the, did you go to the trailers thing?
No, right?
It was cool that we were on the trailers thing do you think that i photoshopped it,
that would be funny that would if i if i knew how that might have been kind of fun but i didn't
well it's funny his mom had said let's see when's the podcast coming out and i was kind of like um
it's like a couple days ago but this is really cool right here's the here's the trailer thing
i did i have gone and looked a couple of times to see if we've made the top 200 in true crime
which that i don't think that would be the case because there are over 20 000 true crime podcasts
Ding! Isn't that crazy?
Yeah, so we appreciate everybody that has tuned in and we will see you next time.
Bye guys! on Murder on the Couch.
Music.