WEBVTT

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Hey, Sid. Hey, dad. Welcome to our, well, no, no, no, no, no.

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Are you kidding me right now? Are you serious? I'm the pro. Do you care about this podcast at all? I've only done 400 other

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podcasts in my life.

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Welcome back to welcome to Okay, look at you, bro. Right? Hey,

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everybody, welcome to murder on the couch. I am your host. I.

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Think I'm the co host. We're both co hosts. I think but I like you being the host. Okay. I'm the host. This is your host, Sidney Overbay. This is

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Tony Overbay. I'm so used to going into the whole spiel. I'm a licensed marriage and family

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therapist, a certified mindful habit coach, all that stuff. And I'm a college dropout,

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but a world traveler. Nonetheless, can you technically be called a dropout if you really

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kind of didn't attend? Right? Because it was during the whole COVID thing. That's true.

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I did attempt attending a couple of times. Did you really? No. Well, yes, but no. Did

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Did you ever get on the zoom calls or anything for college?

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I would bring my laptop into the car and then I would just drive around while the zoom was

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just playing. So you were attending technically. I was attending.

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Was that in your height of your door dash days?

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So we see you working hard while she's going to school and then just never again.

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We're excited to bring you true crime meets therapy.

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Exactly. So you're going to get the insight of a therapist, real life therapist, and the insight of someone

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who needs therapy. That's true.

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So this is going to be really exciting. And then the format, which I am so excited about is I am not going to prepare at all.

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So these stories are going to be new to me, which I'm really excited about that.

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No, yeah. I have been doing so much research on this case. I've read every article, I've gone to every corner and it's crazy.

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Okay. It's really insane. What are we talking about today? What's the case?

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We are going to be talking about the disability of the brain.

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Music.

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Listening to this please check out the YouTube version because there's so many

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videos I feel like it really changes something when you put a face to the name also what if it has like four views that would be really humbling so you

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should really go check it out okay bye,

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Abby Choi was a mother of four a social media influencer a model a socialite she,

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was so well known by everyone before we get into this case I want to make a

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little disclaimer I feel like a lot of the coverage on true crime that has been

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coming out lately is a lot more exploitative than informative, if that makes sense.

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Yeah. A lot of it is just like, Oh, we want the gory details, you know, the shock factor.

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It's gross sometimes.

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And I really don't want that to be what this podcast is about.

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I want this to be about the facts about in this case, Abby, and we're not romanticizing

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the killers or anything. That's not what this is going to be about, but yeah, I've been waiting to tell you about

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this for so long because it's been driving me crazy.

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Okay. And I like what you're saying. So then I don't have to prepare my over-the-top reactions

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then? You know, right? What? Or I don't have to do any of those? I don't do that very well.

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No, no. This is going to be real. This is going to be real. Okay. Which if that's the case, are you prepared for me to interrupt?

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Kind of like I just did there, but with amazing therapeutic knowledge around.

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This is one of the fun things about me and my dad's conversations is nobody ever stops talking.

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No, we don't. We just interrupt each other back and forth until the conversation in the therapy world. I call it flow.

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Exactly. And when people don't appreciate that, they call it annoying, but I like the flow.

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Let's talk about the case. I want to give a little credit.

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I want to give a lot of credit to Stephanie Sue. She's a true crime YouTuber.

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She's like one of the biggest people out there right now.

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I enjoy those. You turned me onto her rotten mango is the name of her podcast.

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She goes to town on these cases and gives all of the articles that she used for research

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and stuff. So that really helped me with this credit to her and we'll have links to some

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of the articles that you'll refer to in the show notes as well. I will be doing that.

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Apparently that's what you do. Of course. Let's talk about Abby. Okay. First, Abby was

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born on July 11th, 1994 in Hong Kong. Trying to do the math right now. 1994 when she disappeared,

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She was 28 years old, super young.

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She is the oldest of two sisters, so she has two younger sisters, and she has four children.

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Four children by 28. All of her friends and family have nothing but nice, like everyone

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loves this girl. She has such a genuine heart and a good spirit. Her current husband described her

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as, and I quote, kind hearted and good person who always wanted to help others. Hearing him talk

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about her was so sad, but so sweet. He was just saying how lucky his kids were to have her as a

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mother. She was from a very, very wealthy family. So she grew up very comfortable, but she wasn't

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like a bratty rich kid in any way. She seemed to be the opposite of that. Her parents actually

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owned a huge construction business that ran throughout China. So she was very well known.

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But like I said, she was not bratty at all. She was actually really, really giving. She was the

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co-founder of Hong Kong's, and I'm sorry if I pronounced anything wrong, Payomes Charitable

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Organization, which was an animal rescue organization. She's a good person.

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Nick Loper Having means, but then also still co-founding a charity for innocent animals.

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Nicole Loper Exactly. And I feel like when somebody is nice to animals, it really says something about their character because there's nothing in it for

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you when you're nice to an animal, you know? Like they're not going to be able to give you anything.

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So it just, it shows a lot of selflessness, I think. One of her friends even tells a story

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about a time when they were walking down the road and they saw a very badly injured cat,

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like had just been hit by a car. He said there was flies around it and stuff already.

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And Abby was like, no, we are saving this cat. I don't care. Like her friend was literally telling

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her like, that is a corpse, like, don't. And she said, no, I'm going to save this cat. And she did.

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And the cat is doing so much better now. Really? Okay. So you spent time, you volunteered at an animal shelter in Costa Rica for two months.

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Did you save any cats like that?

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I was attacked by cats.

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I was attacked by cats. I was attacked by rats. Bats. There were bats.

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There were bats. Dogs? Dogs.

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But what was that like though? All of the volunteers that would come in and out, they were all such good people. You

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don't really catch a crappy person volunteering at an animal shelter.

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No. Just like I would- Because what's in it for them.

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Exactly. Yeah. Just like I would presume you wouldn't catch a bratty rich person literally

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starting a charity for animals.

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Okay. First experiences, therapists working with people that have money at times. One.

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Guy told me, and I thought this was so good. He said that money makes you more of whatever

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you are. So if you're a jerk, you become a bigger jerk. But if you're a kind person,

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then you're even more kind. I like that. So it sounds like she took the money and became

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even kinder and more charitable.

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She was also a very, very successful model and influencer. Socialite is what they call

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it, I think, online. And she worked hard at this. Okay. I was stalking her Instagram,

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not in a creepy way, but research side note. I was thinking if I ever not even wanting

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to put this into the universe, if I ever went missing, please use cute pictures of me, please.

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So that's what I was researching pictures of her on like the, like just regular images.

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And then I was like, if this were me, I would want people to use approved Sydney approved

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pictures. So I went onto her Instagram and she's a hardworking model. Okay. Like it seemed

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like she was somewhere new, not even every week, like every other day she was on runway.

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She was modeling for everyone featured in Vogue. She was featured in Elle. She was a

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regular attendee at Paris fashion week.

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Um, I can, I can say I have never been invited to Paris fashion week. If that's what that says.

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I wonder why. I don't know why it was called lost in the mail.

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Yeah. I guess I've already done one. A shout out for Stephanie. Sue. How about one for

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for Paris Fashion Week.

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I don't know why that's so funny. I'm going to be putting a lot of pictures on the screen right now.

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Just of her at all of her shoots and stuff because she looks amazing. She's so cool.

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One thing that just kept growing and growing as I was researching this case was my love

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for this girl. Like she's so cool.

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So this is one of my favorite looks that she did. I'm kind of excited to see this.

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They kept calling her a fashion icon. And at first I was like, fashion icon, like that's such a cringy word to say.

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No, she is a fashion icon. Look at this look.

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Literally so cool. She's wearing like leg warmer boots. Like I don't even know a Chanel

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little dress thing. And like, she is so cool. I want to be here. Look at her bag. Look at

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that bag. It's literally like, it looks like a perfume bottle. The things she's involved

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in designing are so sick. There's so many pictures of her with animals in nature, like

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doing arts and painting and drawing. Like she was really, she just seemed really talented

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live in a life. Yeah. I'm probably going to cut this out, but there is this one picture

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that I found on her Instagram and look how she's sitting. I'm literally, I'm the only

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person that I know who sits like that. I'll put it up on the screen.

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You must keep that in because I have, I've literally talked to your mom about how do,

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you do that? Because I think I would pop every leg and tendon in my body on a hard chair.

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Knees of steel. Now last February 14th, the middle of March right now. So not last, but

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Like last year, this year, February 14th, Valentine's Day.

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Valentine's Day, just a few weeks ago.

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She posted her last instagram post.

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And it was a repost of her on the cover of La Officielle magazine.

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I don't know. One of my favorites.

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It's been featured there many times. And they titled her one of the most sought out influencers in the industry.

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So her career was booming. She was getting bigger and bigger every day. And so she was 28.

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Yeah. Okay. Only 28 years old. There's a theory.

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Some believe in psychology around 27 is when you start really taking off in life.

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Athletes are at their prime at 27. So I wonder if that's an influencer thing as well. So she's

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she's in her prime. Little did anyone know she would disappear just like 10 days after that.

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Wow. So first I'm going to take you to the crime scene before we really get into it. Okay. So this.

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Was February 24th. Police finally get enough information to go investigate. Abby's been

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missing for three days at this point. Oh, okay. So police go to investigate this creepy apartment

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on the bottom of three floors in Lung May Tsuen, a seaside village in Hong Kong.

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Seaside. So I'm sure it was pretty nice. I would imagine.

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Yes, it was nice. It was like a very public, really popular area.

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Yeah. And immediately as the police pulled up, they knew that something was wrong because the house was so creepy. Okay. There were

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long black tarps covering all of the windows and all of the entrances.

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Okay. Neighbors also had been sussed out for weeks before this. I know what that means. They were suspicious.

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The neighbors said that they'd never seen anyone spend the night at this house, but they just kept

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seeing people kind of show up and leave. And they saw this old man who was just like chain smoking

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on the side. He looked stressed out, but nobody knew who he was at this point. So the police opened

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the door and the floors are covered in plastic. That's not good. I mean, unless they're painting

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the ceiling. The ceiling was not being painted, I can confirm. Okay. The house was completely empty.

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So no furniture or anything like that? Zero furniture. Okay, now this is really creepy.

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As they walk deeper into the apartment, they are faced with what one article describes as

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a human butcher shop. Upon further investigation, police found Abby's remains not only in the fridge.

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But also cooked into two pots of soup with carrots and radishes.

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I don't even know what to say. Absolutely not. Yeah. There's nothing to say.

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Now, who would want to do this to such a kind, good-hearted mother of four?

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What if I told you that it was not only the father of her own two children, but his entire family?

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Oh. And not only that, but what if I told you this entire family was living under the roof of a luxury apartment that Abby bought them herself.

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Okay. I don't, I was already kind of stumped a few minutes ago, but I don't

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even know what to say to that. I mean, they couldn't. Yeah, it's insane. Right.

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It really is. They bought, she bought them the place they're living in. Yes.

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And then they not only murder her and it was a month ago. I feel like the best way to understand this case is to start with Abby's ex-in-laws,

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the Kwong family. They are shady as fuck, let me tell you. But just laying it out first

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so you can kind of like get a feel for who's here.

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You have a family tree almost? Yeah, a little family tree moment. So first we have Kwong Kwao. He is the father-in-law,

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the ex-father-in-law of Abby, and he's married to Jenny Lee. They have two sons together.

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The oldest one's name is Anthony Kwong and Alex Kwong. And this is going to be Abby's ex-husband.

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I feel like to really understand this, we have to start all the way at the top with

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Kwong Kwao. So let's get into that. Now this is her ex-father-in-law.

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So- Ex-husband's dad. Okay. Yes. This is all the way back in the early 2000s.

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He was a former police sergeant in the Hong Kong police department.

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And at this point they were doing pretty well for their family, I believe.

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He loved this job. Okay. He was obsessed with this job. It was his entire identity. He was

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good at it at first, you could say.

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If that's the right word. He was awarded the Hong Kong Police Long Service Medal in 2001.

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I think he even got another medal at some point too. He was confident. He loved being

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a police officer. He loved the authority. And most of all, he loved the power.

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Nathaniel It's like there's a little foreshadowing maybe? Nicole Yes, definitely.

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Nathaniel It's crazy though. And I like the way that you laid it out because now my brain is going a million miles an hour of the whole family

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is involved. And now we're talking about a decorated police officer.

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Mm-hmm. Everything's going fine for Quan Quao until 2005 when a woman walks into the police

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station, a victim of a crime. She's in distress, obviously. He took a liking to her immediately

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and he felt connected to her for some reason, for whatever reason. And he was listening

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to her and really like making her feel like he cared and like he cared about the case

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in getting her justice. Yeah. She actually felt very appreciative of this. She felt safe.

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I would imagine her scene. Okay. Which is so important in a situation like that. He's

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calling her outside of the investigation at this point and stuff. And she still thinks

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it's just for the investigation. Like he's that good of a police officer. She goes home

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that night and she goes to sleep. Finally thinks that someone's listening to her case.

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Everything's going great. And then she wakes up to a loud knocking on her door at like

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five or six in the morning. Which first of all, why are you knocking on my door at five or six

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in the morning? She does answer the door though, because it's police officer Quan Quao. And already

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the power imbalance there. Of course she's going to answer the door, right? So she lets him in.

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He says it's for the investigation or whatever. And he allegedly rapes her.

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Oh man. In her own home. Okay

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So, I have to say allegedly because he resigned immediately after this.

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So that there wouldn't be an investigation? Charges were dropped.

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They were. Okay. Exactly. Again, allegedly, hypothetically, there could have been a deal made or you quit and we let

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this thing go or who knows?

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Yeah. Who knows?

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But it's pretty suspicious that as somebody who was so in love with this job, it was his

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entire identity. him to resign immediately after. I don't know. It's just kind of suspicious to me.

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So alleged, but it seems a little fishy.

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Very fishy. This was all the way in 2005. She had nothing to gain from condemning a police officer.

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As a woman, I don't see what she would have gotten out of that. And just the fact that

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he didn't even try to defend it when this job was his entire life is very suspicious to me.

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So then all of a sudden he just quits.

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Yeah. He quits the one thing that gave him like character.

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Again, alleged, but I can only imagine what do you say that, yeah, I just ran over there

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at five in the morning. Yeah, exactly. Give her an update. Like what update?

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Yeah. And it's like, if he had one, then he would have had a defense.

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It just doesn't make sense.

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The abuse of power, by the way, I, I mean, cause that, that stuff, when somebody is that

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vulnerable and open and then you trust and you feel heard and understood and because

00:17:23.615 --> 00:17:28.350
in my world of therapy, you get these things where people make claims against therapists

00:17:28.503 --> 00:17:32.495
and you get a monthly update and every therapist, I think we'll go check out what the

00:17:32.495 --> 00:17:38.095
accusations are and they're almost always someone ended up having an affair or sex with their client.

00:17:38.963 --> 00:17:43.113
And they lose their license to get fine because it's like, here's this person that is opening

00:17:43.113 --> 00:17:49.424
up and vulnerable and trusting you. And then here's this therapist that's saying, I feel a connection.

00:17:49.892 --> 00:17:54.653
That's right. The power imbalance. Yeah. The power imbalance is bad. It's crazy.

00:17:55.266 --> 00:17:59.733
Like, and just like to re-traumatize this girl who's already been through something

00:17:59.733 --> 00:18:03.693
so traumatizing to make her feel safe.

00:18:03.693 --> 00:18:07.733
And then to take advantage of that, like it's absolutely repulsive.

00:18:07.733 --> 00:18:11.013
I just, I couldn't even believe that one's that is bad.

00:18:11.317 --> 00:18:16.493
He resigns, the charges are dropped and he basically just never tries to get a job again.

00:18:16.692 --> 00:18:20.273
His life kind of just plateaus from there. He doesn't want a job.

00:18:20.608 --> 00:18:22.273
He doesn't try to get one.

00:18:22.705 --> 00:18:28.673
According to all the online records, it seems that he just felt as though he was

00:18:28.773 --> 00:18:31.913
entitled to the world, but he didn't have to work for it.

00:18:32.059 --> 00:18:36.033
I feel like there's has to be some form of narcissism that runs through the

00:18:36.033 --> 00:18:43.753
Kwong family because they think they are gods. And it's like, bro, what? You literally assaulted someone.

00:18:43.753 --> 00:18:46.633
Wait, let's jump into the old therapy world because I work with, you know, this is a big

00:18:46.633 --> 00:18:50.593
population of narcissistic personality disorder, people that struggle with that. And there's

00:18:50.593 --> 00:18:55.633
a concept called confabulation, which is the narcissist creating a new narrative of what

00:18:55.633 --> 00:18:59.753
really happened in real time so that it couldn't have been them. So that's where I feel like,

00:18:59.753 --> 00:19:03.035
you know, somebody might resign, but it isn't because they did anything wrong. It's because,

00:19:03.553 --> 00:19:07.153
are the ones, people don't understand them. They go victim status, you know,

00:19:07.153 --> 00:19:10.033
yeah. Of course he wouldn't fight it because he knew that he would be wrong.

00:19:11.313 --> 00:19:15.702
And then why would he try to get a job when now he thinks everybody's against them and you know,

00:19:15.953 --> 00:19:19.987
what's he going to do? And it's just a way for that person to still justify their behavior.

00:19:20.041 --> 00:19:26.193
So four years of unemployment pass on his part and then he becomes essentially.

00:19:26.193 --> 00:19:35.433
Abbie Choi's sugar baby. Let me explain. In 2009, Abbie Choi meets Alex Kwong.

00:19:35.433 --> 00:19:44.313
So she's about 15 then? Yes. She's 15 years old. He's also 15. And Alex Kwong is Kwon Kwa's son, as we know.

00:19:44.313 --> 00:19:50.593
We can assume that Kwon Kwa was pretty excited when they met because Abbie Choi was from a very,

00:19:50.593 --> 00:19:54.513
very wealthy family. Of course, we don't know all the details and facts about that,

00:19:54.513 --> 00:19:59.633
but with what ends up happening, suspicious on his part and on Alex Kwong's part.

00:19:59.633 --> 00:20:04.593
So they stayed together for three years and then they get married at age 18.

00:20:04.899 --> 00:20:05.553
Ooh, that's young.

00:20:06.528 --> 00:20:11.291
And then they pop out a baby within the same year when they were only 18 years old.

00:20:11.633 --> 00:20:13.748
So very, very young marriage. Yeah.

00:20:14.522 --> 00:20:20.842
Um, never do that. Anybody don't get married at 18. Do you know how old your mom and I were? Oh, what?

00:20:22.354 --> 00:20:28.204
She was 19. I hope she wasn't a child. Yeah. What are you going with? I was 20. 20.

00:20:28.710 --> 00:20:33.067
Did you know that? No, I didn't actually. No, we were, we thought. Wait, really? Yeah.

00:20:33.868 --> 00:20:35.966
I just sat in. I thought you were like 24, honestly. No, no.

00:20:36.236 --> 00:20:38.054
Wow. I was 20. She was 19.

00:20:39.204 --> 00:20:41.079
I had a, not to say full head of hair. I had as much hair as I had ever had in my entire life.

00:20:41.403 --> 00:20:44.204
And, but we really did think we were old. Okay. No, I got it.

00:20:44.204 --> 00:20:47.204
If you're balding, marry young. Okay. Honestly, that is, that is a good one.

00:20:47.204 --> 00:20:50.649
I'm going to say that. I'm going to say that. Balding Mary Young.

00:20:51.279 --> 00:20:59.561
Honestly, that is the more you know. She was like, I caught her on my way down and her way up.

00:20:59.964 --> 00:21:03.964
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you guys met in the middle, but then it was just, you were winning.

00:21:03.964 --> 00:21:05.964
Yeah. Talk about power imbalance.

00:21:06.267 --> 00:21:09.964
Yeah. No, that was probably one of the greatest timing I've ever had in my entire life.

00:21:09.964 --> 00:21:13.844
That and the first Black Friday we ever got, like a Nintendo, when we went to Walmart,

00:21:13.844 --> 00:21:15.484
like at two in the morning.

00:21:15.484 --> 00:21:19.284
Those two things are some of the greatest timing I've ever had in my entire life.

00:21:19.284 --> 00:21:22.844
You did not just relate your marriage to that. Let me call mom.

00:21:22.844 --> 00:21:27.844
I know. Let's see what she has to say. Do you know how old I am right now?

00:21:28.071 --> 00:21:29.754
Ooh, 70?

00:21:30.204 --> 00:21:30.844
Okay.

00:21:32.050 --> 00:21:37.856
What? You do not think I'm 70. But yeah, so they got married at 18 though.

00:21:38.072 --> 00:21:44.664
I mean, that is, that's really, really young. He was really excited because Abby Choi's parents, they were very wealthy and Abby was

00:21:44.664 --> 00:21:51.544
also wealthy herself. She ended up having a net worth of $100 million, not dollars.

00:21:51.544 --> 00:21:54.544
That's in the Hong Kong dollars. No, Hong Kong dollars. Hong Kong dollars. Yeah.

00:21:54.544 --> 00:21:59.104
A hundred million. This is one of those things where that's either going to be $19.47 or

00:21:59.104 --> 00:22:04.728
it's still a significant. She had a whopping a hundred dollars in her bank account. No, $12.7 million.

00:22:04.984 --> 00:22:13.704
Oh, that's nice. Yeah. Now let's talk about Alex. This guy was a douche bag. Okay. He's a serial scammer.

00:22:13.704 --> 00:22:21.744
Very much. That is a diagnosis. He's been wanted by Hong Kong officials since 2015 because he was

00:22:21.744 --> 00:22:28.611
involved in a gold scam. He ended up scamming people of almost a million US dollars. Yeah.

00:22:28.944 --> 00:22:34.744
So he would find people online and he would convince them that he was this huge gold investor.

00:22:34.744 --> 00:22:40.984
He knew what he was doing. He'd get them to invest hundreds of thousands of dollars sometimes. And.

00:22:41.376 --> 00:22:44.878
And then he would steal their money and ghost them, essentially.

00:22:45.022 --> 00:22:45.355
Okay.

00:22:45.545 --> 00:22:49.984
You said I've worked with people that have been scammed, romance scammed, financial scams.

00:22:49.984 --> 00:22:55.951
Really? Yeah, and it's so sad because a scammer has no morals, no morality.

00:22:56.059 --> 00:22:59.484
And so they just don't care at all, and they will do anything.

00:22:59.484 --> 00:23:03.984
I mean, that's when you're starting to border on things like sociopath or psychopathology,

00:23:04.179 --> 00:23:09.484
where people, not just emotionally immature, narcissistic, but zero empathy or care for others.

00:23:09.484 --> 00:23:13.004
Which what creates that? What creates someone to be born without?

00:23:13.424 --> 00:23:16.275
How do you not? It's interesting. It's a great question.

00:23:16.275 --> 00:23:20.775
So, I work with a lot of narcissistic personality disorder and that's more of a really extreme

00:23:20.775 --> 00:23:21.775
emotional immaturity.

00:23:21.775 --> 00:23:25.615
So, they can't sit with any discomfort, you know, they never saw healthy relationships

00:23:25.615 --> 00:23:30.895
modeled in their childhood. And so, things like gaslighting is basically this childhood defense mechanism because they

00:23:30.895 --> 00:23:34.184
felt like if they were a kid and they got in trouble, then they may die.

00:23:34.346 --> 00:23:37.866
So, they just, from the word go, they grew up and it couldn't have been them.

00:23:38.145 --> 00:23:41.223
So, they get good at saying, I didn't do it. It was you. So, that's its own thing.

00:23:41.695 --> 00:23:46.135
But when you look at sociopaths and psychopaths, now we're talking about some things happening in the brain.

00:23:46.135 --> 00:23:49.015
So there's areas of the brain that literally never get blood flow.

00:23:49.015 --> 00:23:54.295
So that there's the part that parts about empathy and things like that, that just nothing's happening there.

00:23:54.295 --> 00:24:03.216
So those are people that just literally don't fear or care. And a sociopath learns to act within the world and appear that they are okay.

00:24:03.375 --> 00:24:05.521
But sometimes they truly just don't understand.

00:24:05.955 --> 00:24:11.201
But then a psychopath is one that has no fear of getting caught, has no fear of punishment.

00:24:11.635 --> 00:24:16.197
And so they just will do whatever it makes sense that the only relationship that he had

00:24:16.269 --> 00:24:20.635
to look at was exactly his father, who wasn't even trying to get a job.

00:24:20.761 --> 00:24:27.635
I'm sure he was scamming to honest. I mean, I don't want to say that, but he definitely didn't have a great father figure in any way,

00:24:27.635 --> 00:24:28.635
right?

00:24:28.635 --> 00:24:33.235
In my line of work, you're not making an excuse for the crime, but sometimes you can say,

00:24:33.235 --> 00:24:36.236
okay, that person, they had no chance in a sense.

00:24:36.435 --> 00:24:37.245
Yeah.

00:24:37.506 --> 00:24:40.995
I just, it's so hard for me to believe that because there's so many people involved and

00:24:40.995 --> 00:24:47.381
And it's like, how did not one of you at one point ever just question this for a second?

00:24:47.515 --> 00:24:52.044
The motive itself is just disgusting. It's like you're biting the hand that feeds you.

00:24:52.395 --> 00:24:55.933
You're cutting off the hand that feeds you. Like it's insane. It just is.

00:24:56.212 --> 00:25:00.317
Maybe as we get along through this, we'll talk sometime about narcissistic family systems

00:25:00.425 --> 00:25:04.683
and that's where the whole family system operates around. In essence, it's king narcissist.

00:25:04.835 --> 00:25:08.995
And then if anybody even tries to disagree, then it's like the whole unit is against them.

00:25:08.995 --> 00:25:12.912
Over time, then the person that maybe feels like they would want to get out of that environment,

00:25:13.195 --> 00:25:17.296
I mean, they have to basically cut off all ties and that can be really difficult too.

00:25:17.431 --> 00:25:19.474
But you're right though, if that many people are involved.

00:25:19.636 --> 00:25:21.725
Yeah. Cut off all ties or go to jail.

00:25:22.004 --> 00:25:22.274
Yeah.

00:25:22.915 --> 00:25:26.795
Like, that's why I just, I kind of have to believe that there's some narcissism or something.

00:25:26.795 --> 00:25:30.475
I'm sure there's like probably more than that. There's probably like emotional manipulation

00:25:30.475 --> 00:25:34.795
and stuff like that too, but it just seems like they had to have big ass heads and I

00:25:34.795 --> 00:25:36.195
don't know where they were coming from.

00:25:36.195 --> 00:25:41.701
So he was a scammer, and then he would find people online, take their money, and just no regard for what...

00:25:42.331 --> 00:25:49.121
Zero regard. It reminds me a lot of Andrew Tate, actually. I don't know if you're familiar

00:25:49.121 --> 00:25:55.361
with that. He had this program called Hustlers University where he would basically just teach

00:25:55.361 --> 00:25:57.464
people how to scam. So crazy.

00:25:57.635 --> 00:26:02.701
I heard a little bit about him, but I'm almost going to say, thankfully, I don't necessarily

00:26:02.701 --> 00:26:07.481
work with the population that are eager to hear about him, but I would talk to people

00:26:07.481 --> 00:26:10.454
whose kids were getting involved with Andrew Tate. Yeah.

00:26:10.634 --> 00:26:15.201
Disgusting. Yeah. It turns out he was like a sex trafficker and stuff. Yeah.

00:26:15.405 --> 00:26:18.561
So yeah, kind of these, they run in the same lane. I'm just going to say it.

00:26:19.528 --> 00:26:26.241
He was actually sued for more than $1.6 million. I'm assuming it was Hong Kong dollars. It wasn't

00:26:26.241 --> 00:26:32.961
specified. He was also recently charged again for, I think, seven more counts of theft.

00:26:32.961 --> 00:26:37.281
He stole 39 necklaces, 32 bracelets. Wow.

00:26:37.281 --> 00:26:43.006
There's more. I have a list. Let me pull out my list. 102 gold grains, six pendants,

00:26:43.141 --> 00:26:47.706
10 tales of gold and 13 gold bars. And a partridge in a pear tree. I'm sorry, Sid.

00:26:47.850 --> 00:26:52.027
That was, there you go. I mean, that just shows that this is, that's the air he breathed.

00:26:52.459 --> 00:26:56.429
Yeah. Who can I manipulate? What can I steal? Who can I scam?

00:26:56.519 --> 00:27:01.841
I also don't think he ever had a real job. If he did, it didn't stick. I can assume that Abby

00:27:01.841 --> 00:27:05.188
didn't know about this kind of stuff at that point. They were also still pretty young.

00:27:05.359 --> 00:27:09.721
They stayed together and after two years in 2014, they have another baby.

00:27:09.896 --> 00:27:16.081
Wow. So two kids now, then in 2015, I believe it was three years after they were married.

00:27:16.121 --> 00:27:17.361
There wasn't an exact date.

00:27:17.710 --> 00:27:18.641
They get divorced.

00:27:19.114 --> 00:27:21.561
I wonder, man, I wish, I wonder how she got out of that.

00:27:22.103 --> 00:27:26.641
I mean, I'm grateful. She, that's so sad. It's so sad. I didn't even think about that.

00:27:26.641 --> 00:27:31.361
Like she tried to get out of it. No, that's what I want to say, man, I work with so many people that are in those

00:27:31.361 --> 00:27:36.161
kind of relationships and then they get out and then it's like just liberating and free.

00:27:36.161 --> 00:27:40.081
Yeah. But she had two kids with him. So I think that's part of the reason why she felt

00:27:40.081 --> 00:27:45.881
obligated to continue to support him. And it just sucks because he took that and he

00:27:45.881 --> 00:27:47.041
just took advantage of her.

00:27:47.041 --> 00:27:50.521
Okay. I just had the aha where you said when we were setting up the crime scene that, yeah,

00:27:50.521 --> 00:27:54.799
So then she was taking care of, that was probably the house that she had bought them.

00:27:55.349 --> 00:28:00.799
Oh yeah, we'll get into the house too. I still, when you hear the price, I just can't even,

00:28:01.713 --> 00:28:05.599
believe. So yeah, they get divorced. We don't know exactly why. We can assume why.

00:28:06.610 --> 00:28:13.279
Skip forward to 2016, Abby gets unofficially remarried. She reconnects with this guy and they

00:28:13.279 --> 00:28:18.399
met each other when they were 10 years old. They were like best friends in grade school. And then

00:28:18.399 --> 00:28:25.679
they reconnect, they fall in love. His name was Tam Chuck Kwan. And he was the son of the founder of

00:28:25.679 --> 00:28:27.439
Yunnan Rice Noodles. I don't know exactly how to say it.

00:28:27.439 --> 00:28:28.990
Oh, I like a good rice noodle, Sid.

00:28:29.251 --> 00:28:32.879
Yeah. They're super popular. Okay. 10 years old, they met when they were 10?

00:28:33.131 --> 00:28:37.139
Mm-hmm. Is there somebody in your past that was 10 that you would think would- Bleh. No. Okay.

00:28:37.965 --> 00:28:42.639
Next question. He came from a wealthy and famous background as well. They had that in common. Not

00:28:42.639 --> 00:28:46.239
that you need that in common and not that Abby cared about that, which is another thing. She

00:28:46.239 --> 00:28:51.439
did not care about having that high title because she, she married Alex Kwon, which no offense,

00:28:51.439 --> 00:28:57.839
full offense. He was not high up there on the pyramid. They stay together and they have two

00:28:57.839 --> 00:29:05.679
more kids, another boy and another girl. Now in 2019, this is the year that Abby bought her ex

00:29:05.679 --> 00:29:15.599
in-laws that house that we were talking about. So she buys her exes a $9.3 million four bedroom

00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:20.319
luxury apartment, which like apartment, it's like a house.

00:29:21.860 --> 00:29:28.959
And then we talked earlier. So the seaside town. No, this is a different place. This was in a place called Kodori Hill. It was a really nice

00:29:28.959 --> 00:29:34.639
neighborhood. Wow. Very like highly prestiged. If that's prestigious. Yeah. Not even prestigious

00:29:34.639 --> 00:29:42.319
enough to know that word, but $9.3 million. Yes. $9.3 million. And you could argue that it's

00:29:42.319 --> 00:29:47.039
because two of her kids were going to temporarily live there because they were sharing custody.

00:29:47.039 --> 00:29:51.759
But that's still incredible though. Generosity. She didn't have to find a place for his parents

00:29:51.759 --> 00:29:53.599
either. No. Like, she just...

00:29:54.214 --> 00:29:58.784
She didn't have that big of an obligation to them and you can tell that she just was so giving.

00:29:58.896 --> 00:30:04.624
I can only imagine because I work with this type of population and I imagine that Alex just made

00:30:04.624 --> 00:30:10.624
her life just a living hell of, you know, with the kid drop off and, oh, you think you're making

00:30:10.624 --> 00:30:14.767
all this money. And again, all alleged, I don't know that, but just my experience is it's not

00:30:15.024 --> 00:30:18.784
like things are peaceful after somebody separates from somebody that's narcissistic.

00:30:18.881 --> 00:30:22.064
It kind of seems like all the effort is one sided. Yes, absolutely.

00:30:22.064 --> 00:30:27.104
She bought the apartment. She was probably expecting that at that point, he would maybe,

00:30:27.811 --> 00:30:33.504
pick up some slack and get a job. But no, they just, they took all the gifts and they were like,

00:30:33.504 --> 00:30:40.064
yep, sugar mommy me, Abby. It just doesn't make any sense. They're living in this $9.3 million.

00:30:40.846 --> 00:30:46.304
Luxury apartment that Abby bought them. So Tam, Chuck, Quan, and Abby, they start a family

00:30:46.304 --> 00:30:52.036
together they have two more kids. Abby's career is just taking off every day. She's just getting

00:30:52.464 --> 00:30:55.904
bigger and bigger, still supporting her exes. Which I think you made a good point. She's trying

00:30:55.904 --> 00:31:03.264
to be nice because there's two kids there. Yeah, but two kids doesn't require a $9.3 million house

00:31:03.264 --> 00:31:08.304
to be fair also. No, it really doesn't. No, I really feel like there's had to be an incredible

00:31:08.304 --> 00:31:12.183
amount of manipulation still going on because we've already identified that Alex is a scammer.

00:31:12.464 --> 00:31:19.264
Now let's move on to 2022, which is so weird to say literally last year, Abby is continuing to

00:31:19.264 --> 00:31:26.224
support her exes and they are all seemingly still unemployed. Apparently Abby, the ex family and

00:31:26.224 --> 00:31:31.322
her new family would all get along really well from the outside, which again, just like

00:31:31.385 --> 00:31:37.024
makes this so crazy. It seemed so normal from the outside. They would vacation together. They would

00:31:37.024 --> 00:31:41.344
go to dinners again, like you said, what was going on behind closed doors, but on the outside,

00:31:41.344 --> 00:31:44.224
it just seemed like they were very healthy.

00:31:44.224 --> 00:31:49.884
It's so wild because I work with this population and there's a face you put out to the public.

00:31:50.264 --> 00:31:54.784
And a lot of times that is to cover up the manipulation or the immaturity that's going

00:31:54.784 --> 00:31:56.906
on behind closed doors. But who knows?

00:31:57.104 --> 00:32:04.464
Now let's introduce one more character to the story. This is Alex Kwong's older brother, Anthony Kwong.

00:32:04.936 --> 00:32:09.744
Okay. and Abby actually seemed really close.

00:32:08.753 --> 00:32:14.363
On social media. So it's like, you never really know. But I think it was very, very recent.

00:32:14.470 --> 00:32:22.683
He literally posted a selfie with her that said like, sis, this is my sis. And he didn't even use that as an alibi. He actually just posted that.

00:32:22.683 --> 00:32:29.883
He ends up being the last person seen with Abby on CCTV footage. Let's get into Anthony Kwong.

00:32:30.523 --> 00:32:37.129
He, like his entire family could not keep a job. I guess at one point, Abby actually loaned him

00:32:37.371 --> 00:32:40.683
a million dollars. I'm assuming it was in Hong Kong dollars.

00:32:40.683 --> 00:32:47.803
Okay. A million of anything. Exactly. $1 million of something to start an egg waffle business.

00:32:47.886 --> 00:32:50.043
I like a good one. I just literally ate a waffle at a break.

00:32:50.043 --> 00:32:53.918
You did. I did. A strawberry, whatever those are called, waffles.

00:32:54.044 --> 00:32:57.323
Well, you would not be eating one from Anthony Wong's waffle shop because it

00:32:57.323 --> 00:32:59.949
failed pretty much immediately. Oh, okay.

00:33:00.976 --> 00:33:06.843
It fails. And this one article I read said that literally all Abby had to say to that,

00:33:06.843 --> 00:33:10.683
to the entire failing business, losing a million dollars was, it doesn't matter.

00:33:12.300 --> 00:33:17.803
Soon after that, and apparently this was Alex Kwong's idea, Abby literally hires Anthony

00:33:17.803 --> 00:33:23.803
Kwong as her full-time driver. And she pays him well over what the regular salary for a

00:33:23.803 --> 00:33:30.763
driver would be. She's not only supporting her ex-husband, his children, his parents,

00:33:30.763 --> 00:33:34.523
and there was a mother too. We'll get into her, Jenny. Jenny, you're not safe.

00:33:34.806 --> 00:33:42.003
Not only that, but she also was fully paying the salary of Anthony Kwang and she helped him to buy

00:33:42.003 --> 00:33:49.083
his own house. Oh, in addition to the $9.3 million. Okay. Yes. And one of the things that I also find

00:33:49.083 --> 00:33:56.323
very messed up is because Anthony was her driver, it's safe to assume that she trusted him a lot

00:33:56.323 --> 00:34:06.083
with her children, with her life. Like I just, I can't even begin to like describe how that makes me feel. No.

00:34:06.377 --> 00:34:08.015
Wait, could you see yourself paying for your ex's stuff?

00:34:08.483 --> 00:34:12.778
No. I wouldn't pay for my ex to live in a cardboard box. Okay.

00:34:13.381 --> 00:34:18.591
Those are pretty cheap. No, no. Like I just, I can't, I can't even get in that mindset

00:34:18.591 --> 00:34:26.092
and that's why I respect her a lot. So moving on 2022, Abby decides that she wants to sell

00:34:26.272 --> 00:34:31.631
the $9.3 million apartment. It's about time. I'm sure they said, Hey, no problem. We'll

00:34:31.631 --> 00:34:37.871
get our stuff and leave. Right? And the story ends. No, we don't know exactly why Abby wanted

00:34:37.871 --> 00:34:43.711
to sell the house, but we don't need to. It was her house, but Kwong was not okay with

00:34:43.711 --> 00:34:49.311
this decision at all. It really just doesn't make sense because Abby, it wasn't like she

00:34:49.311 --> 00:34:54.188
was just kicking them out onto the street. Okay. She fully planned to relocate them.

00:34:54.391 --> 00:34:59.211
She was going to, she was probably going to buy them another million dollars. Maybe downsize

00:34:59.211 --> 00:35:04.331
a little bit, right? Literally. She was obviously not going to kick them out onto the streets.

00:35:04.331 --> 00:35:09.211
It was her own children we're talking about, you know, but Kwong was not okay with this.

00:35:09.211 --> 00:35:12.175
He felt entitled to this house for some reason.

00:35:12.431 --> 00:35:17.378
It's important to add that the house was written under Kwon Kwa's name.

00:35:17.513 --> 00:35:19.475
Oh, I'm sure he talked her into that.

00:35:19.611 --> 00:35:23.811
I just, I know that I don't know that, but well, I'm not, not really.

00:35:23.811 --> 00:35:31.421
Okay. Abby did that to save money on stamps or something. She actually ended up saving like a million dollars. Okay.

00:35:31.491 --> 00:35:35.431
That as it was his house for some reason, which is ridiculous because Abby paid for

00:35:35.431 --> 00:35:41.471
it in full. He did not make a single payment. Okay. And we don't know all the details here,

00:35:41.471 --> 00:35:46.231
but it's clear that there was some kind of argument. There is an like alleged comment

00:35:46.231 --> 00:35:52.251
or something that one of Abby's close friends said that Quan Quao told Abby that if she

00:35:52.251 --> 00:35:59.191
sold the house, he was going to kill her. Okay. I can't find this quote exactly. I don't

00:35:59.191 --> 00:36:06.386
even need this quote to speculate the motive, right? Absolutely insane. 65 year old man,

00:36:06.671 --> 00:36:12.691
this girl pays your rent. Like check yourself. We know that Abby went and actually talked

00:36:12.691 --> 00:36:16.531
to a lawyer about this and the lawyer let her know that as long as she could prove that

00:36:16.531 --> 00:36:20.591
she bought the house herself, she could also sell it. So it seemed like everything was

00:36:20.591 --> 00:36:26.231
going to work out fine. One report says that apparently people came in to view the house

00:36:26.231 --> 00:36:31.191
while the Kwongs were still living in it. It's like, boo-hoo, that's how you sell a house.

00:36:31.191 --> 00:36:33.191
I don't know. That part didn't even...

00:36:34.005 --> 00:36:40.095
I don't care. It doesn't warrant killing someone. I wonder if Kwong was scared that this was Abbey

00:36:40.095 --> 00:36:44.495
like beginning to cut them off. Yeah. Yeah. So they're starting to push them out and maybe make

00:36:44.495 --> 00:36:48.975
them have to take care of themselves. And I feel like he was, yeah, maybe starting to catch on to

00:36:48.975 --> 00:36:54.953
that and he freaked out. Yeah. Yeah. Cause it's wild to think that at some point someone started

00:36:55.089 --> 00:36:59.855
plotting. Regardless there has like, there has to be more information, but it's thought that

00:36:59.855 --> 00:37:08.495
This altercation is what sparked a fire in Bao and he began his meticulous plan to end

00:37:08.495 --> 00:37:15.055
Abby Choi. What would the motive be, right? It doesn't, but it doesn't really make sense in

00:37:15.055 --> 00:37:19.455
this case, right? Because why would they kill the person that's literally for them to live?

00:37:19.455 --> 00:37:26.735
Yeah. So if Abby died, how it works in the system is her inheritance would be split amongst her

00:37:26.920 --> 00:37:32.781
four different children. So because two of those children were Alex Kwang's children,

00:37:32.988 --> 00:37:37.695
half of the inheritance would go to Alex Kwong because the kids weren't old enough yet.

00:37:37.695 --> 00:37:39.641
I mean, at that point they'd be 10 and eight.

00:37:39.803 --> 00:37:46.255
Yeah. I think that's it. Exactly. Fast math. It seems as though they killed Abby Choi.

00:37:47.068 --> 00:37:53.935
For half of her inheritance, which is just like, get a job, dude. I can't.

00:37:53.935 --> 00:37:58.415
At that point, how long it had been since they actually had a job, the dad, 2005 and Alex,

00:37:58.415 --> 00:38:05.252
maybe never. Yeah. It's been years and years and years. This is 2022. His solution was not to go

00:38:05.396 --> 00:38:12.335
find a means of working. It was to literally kill the person whose house he's been living

00:38:12.335 --> 00:38:17.801
in for 10 years at this point. Yeah. Wow. Maybe not 10, almost 10 years. Yeah.

00:38:19.142 --> 00:38:27.375
God. Now we move on to the timeline of the murder. February 21st, 2023, Abby is supposed

00:38:27.375 --> 00:38:29.351
to pick up her daughter from school.

00:38:30.270 --> 00:38:36.760
And nobody comes to pick up her daughter. So obviously this is so out of character for her.

00:38:36.877 --> 00:38:42.360
She's a mother of four. She values her children so much. She is always there to pick them up.

00:38:42.567 --> 00:38:45.720
Which is kind of impressive with all that she has going on as an influencer,

00:38:45.720 --> 00:38:49.720
a fashion model or charity and her foundations, but she's there to pick up her kids.

00:38:49.720 --> 00:38:52.120
The school calls Abby's husband.

00:38:52.316 --> 00:38:54.323
Abby's husband is trying to get to Abby.

00:38:54.576 --> 00:38:59.960
She's completely radio silent. The family thought that it might have to do with a ransom or something.

00:38:59.960 --> 00:39:00.940
Oh, like a kidnapping?

00:39:01.048 --> 00:39:05.800
Yeah. Yeah. They were waiting for some kind of call, like, we have your daughter. Yeah.

00:39:05.800 --> 00:39:11.440
Drop off this money and meet us here. And obviously they were like ready to pay absolutely anything for her.

00:39:11.440 --> 00:39:15.640
They had no idea that it was, it was the own people around her.

00:39:15.640 --> 00:39:18.657
Nobody calls and they put out a missing persons report.

00:39:18.800 --> 00:39:23.005
The next day, February 22nd, police start investigating immediately.

00:39:23.160 --> 00:39:31.420
Their first suspect being the Kwong family. Now they weren't even really suspects yet at this point, but you know, ex-husband, Anthony

00:39:31.420 --> 00:39:33.580
Kwong was Abby's driver.

00:39:33.580 --> 00:39:36.940
Immediately the Kwongs are trying to mislead and confuse the cops.

00:39:36.940 --> 00:39:40.200
Stephanie Sue called it like they're playing Tai Chi with them.

00:39:40.200 --> 00:39:44.007
There was something fishy about it and the police caught on to it immediately.

00:39:44.300 --> 00:39:48.004
And know that the police, this is what they do for a living and they know what seems like.

00:39:48.620 --> 00:39:50.340
This isn't the way people normally act.

00:39:50.340 --> 00:39:59.840
I don't think the Kongs knew how to act at all because Alex Kwong has the audacity to call Abby choice mother and say,

00:39:59.940 --> 00:40:02.240
why didn't you warn me that the police were coming?

00:40:02.240 --> 00:40:05.440
Why didn't you tell me about Abby first?

00:40:05.792 --> 00:40:12.175
Like what that's not the normal way one would hand not that there is a normal but I mean there is in a sense.

00:40:12.553 --> 00:40:18.000
Maybe I'm going to call mom and say I am so sorry. This is so sad not hey, why didn't you give me a heads up?

00:40:18.340 --> 00:40:22.861
Yeah, it's crazy. the see that stuff's crazy like yeah.

00:40:23.410 --> 00:40:28.478
I genuinely cannot even understand how your brain connects those to be like,

00:40:28.757 --> 00:40:34.540
oh, the police just got mad at me. Oh, I'm going to go scream at her mother. Like that makes no

00:40:34.540 --> 00:40:37.820
sense. Are you kidding? She's messing up their plan though. So at this point,

00:40:37.820 --> 00:40:43.340
the police knew that the Kwong's weren't going to cooperate. So they just went in instead.

00:40:43.440 --> 00:40:49.580
After checking CCTV footage, they saw that Anthony Kwong was actually the very last person to be

00:40:49.580 --> 00:40:55.180
seen with Abby. And he, we've identified he was her chauffeur. Yes. They go into the vehicle's

00:40:55.180 --> 00:40:58.933
GPS tracking or whatever. They can do that. I guess. Have you ever heard of a black box

00:40:59.180 --> 00:41:03.420
in an airplane? Nope. Okay. It's like if the airplane crashes, you can get a lot of data

00:41:03.420 --> 00:41:07.100
from it. Cars actually have a similar thing where you can go in and you can find out,

00:41:07.100 --> 00:41:11.014
it will tell you everything from hard stops, how fast you went, directions you went.

00:41:11.347 --> 00:41:14.620
So they can go in and basically find out where the car went. Wow. Isn't that a trip?

00:41:14.620 --> 00:41:21.660
I actually found that on the day of Abby's disappearance, Anthony's car, which was actually Abby's car, right?

00:41:21.660 --> 00:41:29.081
I add a seven seater big car had driven not to pick up Abby's daughter to an apartment

00:41:29.162 --> 00:41:34.114
in long mates when we talked about at the beginning.

00:41:34.260 --> 00:41:37.967
Exactly. Okay. So murder house. Okay.

00:41:38.260 --> 00:41:43.900
So the, I was confused. The apartment that now they know the car had driven to in the seaside village was not the

00:41:43.900 --> 00:41:48.860
the $9 million house that she had purchased. She was starting to say, Hey, I think we might

00:41:48.860 --> 00:41:52.900
need to sell, which is what we were starting to think. Oh, that's why Quan Qua was getting

00:41:52.900 --> 00:41:58.880
upset. Maybe that was where they started plotting things. And so then they go and rent this place.

00:41:58.880 --> 00:42:03.880
A new house. Okay. Which already Thank you, GPS in a sense.

00:42:04.046 --> 00:42:08.680
Yeah. Yeah. Which already just doesn't make sense at all because why, why do they need

00:42:08.680 --> 00:42:14.120
another house? Or are they screaming, crying about how they don't have a house? Who rented this house.

00:42:14.380 --> 00:42:22.636
Yep. Yep. And don't kick us out of the other house. house meanwhile but now the GPS records show

00:42:21.475 --> 00:42:28.765
this place. The cops drive straight to this apartment and as we described before, it's creepy, okay?

00:42:28.765 --> 00:42:30.165
It's covered in black tarps.

00:42:30.165 --> 00:42:32.165
They can't go inside yet. They don't have a search warrant.

00:42:32.165 --> 00:42:35.085
They can see from the outside, something is going on in there.

00:42:35.085 --> 00:42:36.765
They're talking to all of the neighbors.

00:42:36.765 --> 00:42:40.905
I believe they did a door to door interview with everyone in the village.

00:42:40.905 --> 00:42:44.805
They were getting all the different surveillance footages from the houses and all the dash

00:42:44.805 --> 00:42:48.823
cameras on the cars. Like it is weird to think there are cameras kind of everywhere.

00:42:49.205 --> 00:42:56.746
The ring cams, the dash cams, the CCTV, to the GPS, to the, what were the Kwongs thinking? The idiots. Yeah.

00:42:57.556 --> 00:42:59.525
And that's where I'm like, they thought they were on top of the world and it's like you

00:42:59.525 --> 00:43:02.075
are just- That's a narcissist for you though.

00:43:02.285 --> 00:43:06.285
They are above the law and they will get away with it in their mind because they have up

00:43:06.285 --> 00:43:11.845
until that point, whatever it is, 32 necklaces, 64 gold chains, whatever those things are.

00:43:11.845 --> 00:43:18.495
The dad cop not being acquitted for the alleged rape of that person that had entrusted him.

00:43:18.645 --> 00:43:22.165
So at this point, they're getting away with, we've got us a $9 million house, everything.

00:43:22.165 --> 00:43:26.485
They're interviewing all of the neighbors. They were able to get enough footage basically

00:43:26.485 --> 00:43:31.805
of them seeing Anthony and- So they're going to see the Kwangs everywhere.

00:43:31.805 --> 00:43:34.600
Yeah, all around. Oh, everywhere. Yes.

00:43:34.805 --> 00:43:38.325
And neighbors had been very suspicious at this point. They had a lot to say. They kept

00:43:38.325 --> 00:43:42.965
seeing someone show up to that house, but no one was ever spending the night. They saw

00:43:42.965 --> 00:43:48.005
some guy, I think we talked about this earlier, like chain smoking outside of it, never would

00:43:48.005 --> 00:43:53.445
smile at anyone, never would say hi to anyone. They finally got enough information to get

00:43:53.445 --> 00:44:00.525
a search warrant and immediately they go inside and it's just an absolute horror scene. There's

00:44:00.525 --> 00:44:04.005
plastic all over the floors. It's completely empty.

00:44:04.005 --> 00:44:12.485
No furniture. No furniture. I think there was like maybe like two pieces of furniture, but everything else was empty. The bedrooms were completely

00:44:12.485 --> 00:44:21.045
empty. There's only one reason why they rented this place. Exactly. It was not lived in. No. At all. Wow.

00:44:19.872 --> 00:44:26.042
As they go deeper into the house, it just gets worse and worse. There was a meat slicer,

00:44:26.042 --> 00:44:33.562
an electric saw, a hammer, face shields, black raincoats. It was so obvious at this point.

00:44:33.562 --> 00:44:36.275
So premeditated, everything.

00:44:36.356 --> 00:44:43.642
And what really sold the police was a detail that we'll get into next. And that was Abby's purple

00:44:43.642 --> 00:44:51.082
handbag sitting in the house. Now, this was the last handbag that Abby was seen wearing

00:44:51.082 --> 00:44:55.322
on that CCTV footage when she was getting into Anthony's car.

00:44:55.322 --> 00:45:02.138
Oh, okay. Yes. So now that the police have all of this information, let's go over what they think.

00:45:02.516 --> 00:45:08.522
Happened the day of Abby's disappearance. So back to the 21st of February, the day that

00:45:08.522 --> 00:45:13.985
Abby disappeared. She was waiting at her house in Cadori Hill for Anthony to pick her up

00:45:14.102 --> 00:45:20.202
to go get her daughter. So Anthony comes and he picks her up. Everything seems normal at

00:45:20.202 --> 00:45:24.222
that point from what we know. And of course, these aren't facts. This is just what the

00:45:24.222 --> 00:45:26.516
police have interpreted from the GPS.

00:45:26.804 --> 00:45:29.042
Because there hasn't been a trial or anything like that yet.

00:45:29.042 --> 00:45:33.562
No, the trial has been adjourned until May. So Anthony picks up Abby.

00:45:33.562 --> 00:45:36.977
Yeah. So she had a camera like right outside of her house so they could see her fully.

00:45:37.202 --> 00:45:42.722
Wearing your all-white, white shirt, white pants, white shoes, which You

00:45:41.388 --> 00:45:46.150
You're a mother of four and you can wear all white. So great. And this purple bag.

00:45:46.282 --> 00:45:51.802
And that was what ended up solidifying that they knew it was Abby at the crime scene. Okay.

00:45:51.802 --> 00:45:59.042
Anthony leaves. They've got that footage. They were able to pull the GPS data from the car and see that he went right to that town,

00:45:59.042 --> 00:46:01.868
that seaside town and the apartment.

00:46:02.082 --> 00:46:07.242
More specifically, what they think happened is Abby gets into the car with Anthony and

00:46:07.242 --> 00:46:09.664
they believe she might've gotten into the backseat.

00:46:10.042 --> 00:46:15.480
Her and Anthony are driving, they were approaching this tunnel called the Lion Rock tunnel that

00:46:15.642 --> 00:46:20.682
goes into the mountains north of downtown Hong Kong. Anthony suddenly starts to slow

00:46:20.682 --> 00:46:28.322
down and stop the car. So at this point, I can't even imagine what's going through Abby's head.

00:46:28.322 --> 00:46:31.802
No. Oh gosh. Because I'm sure, I guess I don't know the route, but she probably knows

00:46:31.802 --> 00:46:33.133
at this point we're not going to pick up.

00:46:33.722 --> 00:46:41.242
Yeah. Oh, that's sad. Scary. pulls over and he stops the car. I don't know if there was conversation, if there was arguments.

00:46:41.406 --> 00:46:47.962
Can we also just talk about how this is Anthony Kwong, her own personal driver. Like she trusts

00:46:47.962 --> 00:46:53.722
this man. Like this is essentially like a kind of like a bodyguard almost. She trusts him with her

00:46:53.722 --> 00:47:01.322
life and he's betraying it. The car slowly comes to a stop and the police believe in comes Abby's

00:47:01.322 --> 00:47:03.682
ex-husband, Alex Kwong.

00:47:03.885 --> 00:47:04.882
But she was terrified.

00:47:05.487 --> 00:47:10.882
Now, nobody knows exactly what happened after this point, but it's guessed that

00:47:10.882 --> 00:47:15.442
there was some kind of altercation that happened in the car where Abby was either

00:47:15.579 --> 00:47:18.002
knocked out or maybe killed right then.

00:47:18.900 --> 00:47:25.517
I just, I cannot even imagine how terrifying that whole situation would have been for her. Hmm. It's...

00:47:26.192 --> 00:47:32.944
It's just her, she was literally going to see her daughter, the, like, the most important thing to her.

00:47:33.151 --> 00:47:37.802
And that's the stuff that just, it freaks me out and just breaks my heart at the same time,

00:47:37.802 --> 00:47:44.202
whenever people are going to meet their end. And that's where, boy, you just, not that you want

00:47:44.202 --> 00:47:48.362
anything to happen, but that I hope that it, they just didn't drag things out.

00:47:48.362 --> 00:47:54.362
Yeah. Me too. The police are still investigating. It's February 23rd now, two days after her

00:47:54.362 --> 00:48:01.402
disappearance, more than 150. Okay. I'm the first person to talk crap about the police system and

00:48:01.402 --> 00:48:05.562
all of that, but they've got it down in Hong Kong. I mean, I don't know anything, but I don't know

00:48:05.562 --> 00:48:09.169
anything about anything. And this probably was like a really high profile case and stuff, but.

00:48:09.313 --> 00:48:16.682
They sent more than 150 detectives from the Kowloon West Regional Crime Unit. They were

00:48:16.682 --> 00:48:22.385
all tasked with investigating this disappearance. So that's a lot of people on the case.

00:48:22.501 --> 00:48:28.122
So as they enter the house, like we said before, the floor is completely covered in plastic.

00:48:28.122 --> 00:48:34.682
The walls are covered in drapes. It's already so terrifying. I can't imagine like those police

00:48:34.682 --> 00:48:40.682
officers could not have been expecting what they were about to see. They found two giant pots of

00:48:40.682 --> 00:48:47.322
soup, which upon further investigation, they found to be Abby's remains and Abby's head.

00:48:47.322 --> 00:48:52.802
After investigating and finding Abby's remains in the soup, and they also found,

00:48:52.802 --> 00:49:00.722
this is terrible, just warning, two of her legs in the fridge, they still couldn't find all of

00:49:00.722 --> 00:49:08.482
her remains though. They did find that on the back right, I think, of her skull was some kind

00:49:08.482 --> 00:49:16.882
of marking or indentation of assaults. So we don't know exactly what.

00:49:16.882 --> 00:49:21.122
Her in the back of the head at some point. That's what police assumed could have happened

00:49:21.122 --> 00:49:25.602
maybe in the car to knock her out before the tunnel. But then, yeah, unfortunately, like

00:49:25.602 --> 00:49:30.642
nobody knows when she actually lost her life and hopefully it was just right away in that car.

00:49:30.642 --> 00:49:34.882
Honestly, like I said before, though, how many people are in on this? They're part of this plan

00:49:34.882 --> 00:49:39.762
and then they know that they're going to cook her and eat her. And how did not one person have

00:49:39.762 --> 00:49:44.482
something to say? Okay. So now let's get into the arrest because there are a lot of them.

00:49:44.611 --> 00:49:51.162
And don't you feel like at that point? Oh, they have everything they need. Oh, yeah, and they did February 24th. Okay in Hong Kong

00:49:51.162 --> 00:49:52.578
Wait, when is your birthday?

00:49:52.842 --> 00:49:59.762
February 25th. Oh, wow. Yeah. Okay weird, right? Yeah, I I was.

00:50:00.752 --> 00:50:06.666
Blacking out while this guy was getting arrested is basically what happened asleep, but sure. Yeah, okay

00:50:06.666 --> 00:50:14.826
So right away February 24th after investigating that terrible house, they go straight to the Kwong's to arrest the whole family

00:50:14.826 --> 00:50:21.346
Okay, Anthony Kwong is arrested. Kwong Kwao is arrested and their mother Jenny Lee is also arrested.

00:50:22.025 --> 00:50:26.958
She was just arrested for destroying evidence while the other season on it. Yeah

00:50:27.386 --> 00:50:34.186
No, they are all in on it, which is so insane. Anthony and Quan Qua are obviously facing

00:50:34.186 --> 00:50:39.346
murder charges, but Alex Quan is nowhere to be found.

00:50:39.346 --> 00:50:41.280
Oh. Yeah.

00:50:41.785 --> 00:50:46.736
But we think that he's the one that had jumped into the car before the tunnel. Yeah. No.

00:50:46.871 --> 00:50:52.986
Okay. So where was he? He's running for his life. He's scared. Like, oh my, this guy, he's such a little wimp.

00:50:52.986 --> 00:50:56.106
Well, he'd been running from the cops since, what was it? Like 20, whatever, 15?

00:50:56.106 --> 00:51:01.426
2015. gold scam. Oh yeah. He probably knew the second that he got arrested, they were going to be

00:51:01.500 --> 00:51:06.991
charging him with this and they did. Okay. God. Okay. Nobody can find Alex. Where's Alex?

00:51:07.288 --> 00:51:12.626
I'm sure that Anthony and qual and Ginny, nobody's going to tell. Oh yeah. Nobody's cooperating.

00:51:12.717 --> 00:51:17.026
February 25th, the very next day and your birthday and my death and my birthday. Yeah.

00:51:17.026 --> 00:51:22.866
The police intercept him trying to escape on a speedboat. Oh, this is like a bad movie.

00:51:23.276 --> 00:51:29.746
Yeah, yeah. He gets caught. Thank God. Yeah. He's on a speedboat and he had like, I think

00:51:29.746 --> 00:51:38.382
it was like $86,000 and then he had like a ton of just luxury watches, just watches with him.

00:51:38.463 --> 00:51:42.100
So let me grab all my stuff while I go hit the, go on the run in my speedboat.

00:51:42.550 --> 00:51:46.186
Yeah. He, he really thought he was like fricking James Bond or something.

00:51:46.186 --> 00:51:50.121
I didn't know if you would know that reference. I honestly- It's a total James Bond move.

00:51:50.184 --> 00:51:52.146
I don't even know who- I just know that as a cultural reference.

00:51:52.426 --> 00:51:55.146
Now that I say, I don't really know, but I'm glad that it worked.

00:51:55.146 --> 00:51:58.349
100%. That's, I immediately thought, yeah, that's a James Bond thing.

00:51:59.078 --> 00:52:02.886
No. Yeah. But that's not him at all. He's quite the opposite.

00:52:02.986 --> 00:52:03.498
He's a shrimp little guy.

00:52:04.281 --> 00:52:09.491
Oh my gosh. Okay. So the police intercepts him. They find him, they pull him off his speed boat

00:52:09.491 --> 00:52:16.498
or whatever. And he has the audacity. Okay. Maybe this is real, but he literally tells them

00:52:16.786 --> 00:52:22.051
that his stomach hurts. Well, then they're probably gonna let him go. I mean, if he had

00:52:22.051 --> 00:52:28.611
a bad tummy ache, I mean, then, you know, cut the guy some slack, right? Did he really think

00:52:28.840 --> 00:52:32.091
think that they were going to have sympathy for him?

00:52:32.091 --> 00:52:33.494
I don't care if your tummy hurts.

00:52:34.011 --> 00:52:38.411
Why do you think your tummy hurts, bro? Because you're a murderer. Like, it's so crazy.

00:52:38.411 --> 00:52:44.731
We're probably going to find out because he swallows and watches. So we can try to instrument

00:52:44.927 --> 00:52:45.728
a prison or whatever.

00:52:46.111 --> 00:52:52.091
So they take him to the hospital for his tummy ache and then thank God he doesn't slip away

00:52:52.091 --> 00:52:58.131
or anything. They keep him. He's arrested and yeah, he gets charged for so many. He

00:52:58.131 --> 00:53:02.531
gets charged for like seven different counts of theft that we went over earlier. Like they're

00:53:02.531 --> 00:53:04.957
getting on him for everything and obviously murder too.

00:53:05.461 --> 00:53:10.097
Nathaniel So at this point we have Anthony, Kwan-Kwau, Alex, we got Jenny, the mom.

00:53:10.214 --> 00:53:18.343
Nicole Yes, all arrested. They also arrested this guy who was trying to help Alex escape on the boat. So I guess he was like a yacht guy.

00:53:18.775 --> 00:53:23.971
Nathaniel A salty sea captain? Nicole Yeah. Nathaniel Okay. Nicole He was arrested.

00:53:24.402 --> 00:53:28.771
Nathaniel So up to five. then now a sixth person is arrested, okay?

00:53:28.771 --> 00:53:31.126
And you're like, who even could this be?

00:53:31.180 --> 00:53:38.331
So the police actually find out that Quang Quao hadn't even been the one to rent out that apartment

00:53:38.331 --> 00:53:39.760
where they killed Abby.

00:53:39.822 --> 00:53:42.199
It was actually his mistress.

00:53:42.291 --> 00:53:46.043
Wait, let me gather myself and act surprised.

00:53:46.171 --> 00:53:48.159
Wait, he was unfaithful?

00:53:48.897 --> 00:53:53.707
Yeah. Who would have thought? No. Yeah. Now that crosses the line. This guy, like he was

00:53:53.707 --> 00:54:00.907
a cheater too. Like of course he was a cheater. Shocking. Shocking. Okay. So I'm glad. So

00:54:00.907 --> 00:54:04.107
she rents the place. She's aiding and abetting. I don't even know. I'm making that up. I've

00:54:04.107 --> 00:54:09.773
watched some law and order. Yeah. So we're up to six. Yeah. So this lady, she was a masseuse

00:54:09.854 --> 00:54:17.107
and she helped him to rent out that house, which you can't, you can't rent out your own

00:54:17.107 --> 00:54:23.887
you can't even rent out the murder house either. He can't do anything. So apparently his mistress

00:54:23.887 --> 00:54:28.407
had been not showing up to work and she was just telling everyone, she's like, yeah, I

00:54:28.407 --> 00:54:33.167
found this nice rich old man who's taking care of me.

00:54:33.167 --> 00:54:39.931
Nathaniel Oh, so I wonder how long she'd been with him and now she's arrested as accessory to murder.

00:54:40.264 --> 00:54:51.291
Nicole Yeah. And she thought that she had a sugar daddy. Little did she know her sugar daddy was a sugar baby to a 28 year old girl. It's.

00:54:51.958 --> 00:54:59.087
Insane. So yep, a sixth person is arrested. At this point, it seemed like everything was

00:54:59.087 --> 00:55:03.727
kind of wrapping up. Nope. March 9th, another person is arrested.

00:55:03.727 --> 00:55:11.487
So we're talking 10 days ago at the time of this recording. At the time of this recording. Hopefully I can edit fast. This girl was, I think she

00:55:11.487 --> 00:55:14.227
She was a social media influencer also.

00:55:14.227 --> 00:55:19.847
Her name was Irene and she helped Alex hide from the police basically.

00:55:19.847 --> 00:55:24.636
Seven different people arrested all for this one case.

00:55:26.931 --> 00:55:35.201
How did no one, how did not one person say something like, how did nobody think that this was not okay?

00:55:35.201 --> 00:55:40.041
Not just even just a, not like just a normal murder is okay. It's not. But the fact that

00:55:40.041 --> 00:55:44.161
they had this murder house and they had all the, the, the killing devices and then so

00:55:44.161 --> 00:55:51.001
premeditated. Yeah. And then the, where does the cooker in eat her?

00:55:51.001 --> 00:55:55.181
And that part is so sick. Okay. I do want to talk about that. So there is that creepy

00:55:55.181 --> 00:56:00.221
element of like, why did they have her in the soup? What were they doing? I saw a couple

00:56:00.221 --> 00:56:03.501
articles written on this actually, and it was just the whole vibe of the article itself

00:56:03.501 --> 00:56:09.566
is creepy, but I guess it's like an actual problem, air quotes around problem, in Hong.

00:56:09.981 --> 00:56:16.408
Kong because it's so public and so like, what is it? What's the word? Populated?

00:56:16.581 --> 00:56:20.461
Oh, I was going to say like the population is so condensed and congested.

00:56:20.461 --> 00:56:26.501
Basically it says, the dismembering of limbs reflects the realities of life in Hong Kong.

00:56:26.652 --> 00:56:32.081
Simply put, it is much harder to hide a body in the tightly packed city, home to tiny apartments

00:56:32.081 --> 00:56:37.841
in some of the world's most densely populated neighborhoods. I guess people think that this

00:56:37.841 --> 00:56:44.301
may have just been a way to get rid of her body, but I don't know.

00:56:44.301 --> 00:56:49.401
I know that I used to travel to Japan four times a year for a decade. So I went there

00:56:49.401 --> 00:56:55.442
so many times. And we used to joke about trying to find a garbage can anywhere because it's

00:56:55.721 --> 00:57:01.281
so densely populated that people were so, you just, you recycled everything. You were

00:57:01.281 --> 00:57:06.161
very good about not wasting and you just, they're just really, it's not like us where

00:57:06.161 --> 00:57:10.961
there's big dumpsters everywhere and you're just big garbage piles or because if you can't

00:57:10.961 --> 00:57:14.701
get, I mean, I see what you're saying. The article, it's an odd vibe, but I'm looking

00:57:14.701 --> 00:57:18.601
at it right now as you're saying that in Hong Kong, subtropical, humid climate, the smell

00:57:18.601 --> 00:57:22.201
the body very quickly captures attention, hence why some murderers might attempt to

00:57:22.201 --> 00:57:24.222
remove the smell by cooking dismembered parts.

00:57:24.717 --> 00:57:29.047
So it's like, you can't just go put it out in the woods somewhere because it's, you're in city,

00:57:29.245 --> 00:57:35.367
densely populated city. Yeah, I guess. And I don't know. It's just, it's so interesting. I

00:57:35.607 --> 00:57:40.487
don't even know if interesting is the right word, but it does seem like it was really hard for them

00:57:40.487 --> 00:57:45.729
to dispose of her body. I think they like attempted to take it to a cemetery. Basically

00:57:46.007 --> 00:57:51.047
they were like spreading her remains like all over. Yeah. Looking over your notes now,

00:57:51.047 --> 00:57:54.887
because I'm looking at this all fresh, but I'm seeing one thing that says the search for her

00:57:54.887 --> 00:58:00.807
torso and hands is still ongoing. So I see what you mean. So they were trying to get rid of pieces

00:58:00.915 --> 00:58:06.614
in different places and then maybe it was cook the bigger parts to... It's just so crazy.

00:58:06.956 --> 00:58:11.493
So now we've got seven people arrested? Nicole Rada Yes, seven people. And that is

00:58:11.754 --> 00:58:17.127
right now. Who knows? This case is still unfolding every day. So if we have to make an update, we will.

00:58:17.127 --> 00:58:23.087
Yeah, yeah. Here's a real person that now has kids and they don't have a mom and that

00:58:23.087 --> 00:58:30.209
just breaks my heart. And so- Yeah. The kids are being kept with Abby's mom and Abby's family right now, thankfully.

00:58:30.787 --> 00:58:38.667
So they're doing okay. But yeah, it's so sick and twisted and how could you rip somebody's

00:58:38.667 --> 00:58:45.863
family apart like that? And not even that, but in Alex Kwong's case, your own family.

00:58:46.746 --> 00:58:52.885
You're putting this on your own two children, like the most traumatizing event you could

00:58:53.167 --> 00:58:55.527
probably ever go through on your own.

00:58:55.527 --> 00:59:00.007
I'm telling you this as somebody who works with the population of narcissism and personality

00:59:00.007 --> 00:59:03.847
disorders in general, I feel confident in saying that people in that position, the last

00:59:03.847 --> 00:59:05.007
thing they're thinking about is anybody.

00:59:05.007 --> 00:59:08.167
I mean, literally other than themselves, because I will have people where we're going to say,

00:59:08.167 --> 00:59:13.727
Hey, you got to do what's right for the kids. And I know this is a completely separate thing, but then the narcissist is going to continually,

00:59:14.356 --> 00:59:16.201
say, yeah, no, I want to do what's right for the kids.

00:59:16.367 --> 00:59:20.540
And then they feel like, okay, but now that I've said that, now let me tell you how bad

00:59:20.647 --> 00:59:24.312
my ex-wife is, or let me tell you all the reasons why she shouldn't do this.

00:59:24.663 --> 00:59:28.706
I mean, they still cannot, they can't think of anyone other than themselves.

00:59:28.847 --> 00:59:31.964
They just can't. I mean, it goes against what it feels like to be them.

00:59:32.707 --> 00:59:38.554
So looking at it, and again, we're not diagnosing, but I'm just curious, looking at this as if

00:59:38.635 --> 00:59:44.167
it was an abusive, narcissistic relationship, because it could have been, we don't know,

00:59:44.167 --> 00:59:45.167
but it really could have been.

00:59:45.167 --> 00:59:50.487
Do you like have any advice? What would you tell people to do if you're in that situation?

00:59:50.806 --> 00:59:55.847
It's so crazy because the more you study the concept around what a trauma bond is, is that

00:59:55.847 --> 01:00:01.087
again, I would, I would feel very confident calling Abby what I call pathologically kind,

01:00:01.087 --> 01:00:05.741
which means the kindness is who she is. I mean, that's just what it feels like to be Abby is kind.

01:00:06.167 --> 01:00:09.927
And then you've got somebody like Alex Kwong, and I'm going to say incredibly emotionally

01:00:09.927 --> 01:00:15.004
immature, bordering on narcissistic or sociopathic or psychopathic.

01:00:15.526 --> 01:00:19.696
Type of personality. Again, I don't know him. I can't diagnose the public, you know, anybody

01:00:19.696 --> 01:00:24.496
on the public, but then that forms this concept called the human magnet syndrome, which means that

01:00:24.496 --> 01:00:30.096
the more that Abby tries to even speak up for herself or what she feels like is best for her,

01:00:30.096 --> 01:00:34.496
for the kids, then she's basically handing Alex the playbook of the buttons to press,

01:00:34.496 --> 01:00:40.256
to get her even more upset. So then when he wants his way, then he will just probably call her,

01:00:40.256 --> 01:00:43.936
you, Oh, you think you're better. You think you make more money than me. You think you're

01:00:43.936 --> 01:00:47.142
a better parent and then making her feel bad because she's kind.

01:00:47.316 --> 01:00:51.976
So she's going to want to say, Oh no, no, no, I, I don't think that, and I want what's best for all of us.

01:00:51.976 --> 01:00:55.776
And so I think that's where Alex would have most likely manipulated her into the houses

01:00:55.776 --> 01:01:05.066
and the cars and the making her hire his brother. And so at some point the pathologically kind person, they are going to have to just do

01:01:05.356 --> 01:01:06.956
what they feel is right for them.

01:01:07.436 --> 01:01:11.529
And then know that is going to cause him to even push more buttons and more buttons.

01:01:11.976 --> 01:01:15.832
And that's the unfortunate part is for somebody like her to break away from a guy like this,

01:01:16.296 --> 01:01:18.911
it's going to be incredibly difficult because that's where he gets his fix.

01:01:19.336 --> 01:01:23.776
So if somebody is in a situation where they feel like every time they try to speak their

01:01:23.776 --> 01:01:27.136
own mind or do what's best for them or what they feel like is best for their kids and

01:01:27.136 --> 01:01:30.002
the other person makes them feel even worse, boy, they got to get help.

01:01:30.496 --> 01:01:35.856
You know? Yeah. And I hope it doesn't sound like I'm like saying this, like Abby could have done anything

01:01:35.856 --> 01:01:40.976
because she could like, I'm just going over it again in my head and it's like, she couldn't

01:01:40.976 --> 01:01:47.970
have, she did everything she could. She divorced him and she was just caring for her kids.

01:01:48.256 --> 01:01:53.536
She tried to leave him and he, they were just leeching off of her. Like literally leeching

01:01:53.536 --> 01:01:57.196
not trying to like plug anything, but I've got a podcast called waking up the narcissism

01:01:57.196 --> 01:02:02.608
that if somebody is in one of these emotionally abusive or narcissistic relationships, it sounds like.

01:02:02.995 --> 01:02:07.805
The patterns are just so consistent that if somebody goes and starts looking up the concepts

01:02:07.805 --> 01:02:11.885
around gaslighting, or they go listen to a podcast like mine, or there's a lot of experts

01:02:12.007 --> 01:02:16.925
around narcissism. And when you start to listen to what we have to say, you will start to feel

01:02:16.925 --> 01:02:22.206
like, wow, this person was listening on our conversations, or they were in my home because

01:02:22.548 --> 01:02:26.285
you hear the same things over and over. And that's where gaslighting comes from. Or,

01:02:26.437 --> 01:02:30.045
you know, that's where just when you try to get out of a situation where that person will just

01:02:30.045 --> 01:02:34.179
make you feel even worse until you finally say, no, no, it's okay. Cause you want to

01:02:34.242 --> 01:02:38.968
calm the situation down. Cause you're trying to protect your kids. And it's just, yeah, it's just unfair.

01:02:39.184 --> 01:02:42.685
One thing I saw that was interesting was a lot of people were actually relating

01:02:42.685 --> 01:02:48.125
Alex Kwong to Alex Murdaugh in the Murdaugh case. And I haven't really done my like.

01:02:48.772 --> 01:02:52.525
Invest, like I haven't gone down that hole yet, but do you see how that could be?

01:02:52.525 --> 01:02:57.085
Yeah. I mean, it's a lot of that just feeling entitled or privileged and then

01:02:57.085 --> 01:03:01.085
very manipulative, not taking ownership or accountability of anything that is happening

01:03:01.085 --> 01:03:05.405
in their life. And then really just, I think, so used to taking advantage of others. So

01:03:05.405 --> 01:03:07.425
that's just the air they breathe. It's kind of the feel I get.

01:03:07.645 --> 01:03:12.765
Yeah. And that, that is a good way to put it. It is really like scamming, lying, cheating

01:03:12.765 --> 01:03:14.205
is the air that Alex Fong breathes.

01:03:14.205 --> 01:03:18.445
And other people kind of covering up for the things that they do. Because in the Murdoch

01:03:18.445 --> 01:03:23.405
case, he was this person that was just completely manipulative, changed the story at any chance

01:03:23.405 --> 01:03:28.285
he had even when he was testifying under oath and in the court case. And I can only imagine,

01:03:28.285 --> 01:03:32.565
I don't know what Hong Kong's justice system is like, but you get a narcissist on the stand

01:03:32.565 --> 01:03:36.085
and they can't, it's not like they can all of a sudden learn how to take ownership or

01:03:36.085 --> 01:03:40.274
accountability of things. So I would imagine it's going to play out very similar. So I.

01:03:40.645 --> 01:03:45.495
Don't know. I don't know if they do, if they publicize those court cases in Hong Kong.

01:03:45.765 --> 01:03:50.845
I don't know. It would be amazing to watch that. I've had five or six court cases where

01:03:51.202 --> 01:03:54.645
I've, I've been a part of that have had to do with someone with narcissistic personality

01:03:54.645 --> 01:04:00.445
disorder and they cannot keep it together on the stand. I mean, because they're lying

01:04:00.445 --> 01:04:04.565
in the very moment to kind of get themselves out of each situation individually.

01:04:04.565 --> 01:04:10.125
And I can't, that's like putting a narcissist in the most insane position ever. Right? Because

01:04:10.125 --> 01:04:14.212
you have like a hundred people looking at you telling you that you're wrong and you

01:04:14.284 --> 01:04:18.925
in your brain could never even begin to think that you're wrong. Right. So that was just,

01:04:18.925 --> 01:04:19.925
They must just squirm.

01:04:20.208 --> 01:04:23.836
I had, I had a situation once where I'm being cross-examined by this narcissist attorney.

01:04:24.285 --> 01:04:30.645
The narcissist was the client and his attorney. And then he just said, you know, is it true that you're a big proponent of concealed weapon

01:04:30.645 --> 01:04:31.533
permits?

01:04:32.064 --> 01:04:35.765
And I've never said that in my life, but the narcissist would carry a concealed weapon.

01:04:35.765 --> 01:04:39.085
As a matter of fact, I got really frustrated with him one time because he had an outburst

01:04:39.085 --> 01:04:45.085
in my office and then we terminated therapy because I know that this guy has a concealed weapon.

01:04:45.085 --> 01:04:48.685
You know, he like was freaking out in your office and you knew that he like, yeah, yeah.

01:04:48.685 --> 01:04:51.805
So then we terminate and then I continue working with a spouse.

01:04:51.805 --> 01:04:56.005
And then when the court case came down, I just thought it was so interesting that the

01:04:56.005 --> 01:04:59.925
attorney was saying, isn't it true that you, and he was trying to build that I must have

01:04:59.925 --> 01:05:00.763
about a relationship.

01:05:01.402 --> 01:05:06.132
The narcissist. And I said, Oh, uh, no, that's not even close to it. I've never said that.

01:05:06.132 --> 01:05:08.829
As a matter of fact, I'm not a big fan of that, you know, especially in my office.

01:05:09.153 --> 01:05:12.052
And you just watched, I feel like it was one of those things where the, you could see smoke

01:05:12.160 --> 01:05:15.698
pouring out of the narcissist ears and their head was starting to get ready to explode

01:05:16.040 --> 01:05:19.572
because they're, they're saying, no, this is not what you said, but then they couldn't have an

01:05:19.572 --> 01:05:24.292
outburst in the courtroom. Yeah. It's crazy. I really hope that there's more out on this

01:05:24.292 --> 01:05:29.252
and we can, I mean, it sounds bad, but I want, I kind of want to watch him squirm in a way.

01:05:29.252 --> 01:05:35.532
It's talking about satisfying. If there's anything that would be, it's to watch the narcissists.

01:05:36.016 --> 01:05:39.372
Well, yeah, cause that's kind of the only situation right in court where that like you

01:05:39.372 --> 01:05:43.892
can ever really fit a really bad narcissist down and be like, you're wrong.

01:05:43.892 --> 01:05:47.452
Okay. So Alec Murdoch, what was crazy about his case and we don't have to spend much time

01:05:47.452 --> 01:05:52.157
on this, but he got caught lying over and over and over and over again. And then I thought

01:05:52.372 --> 01:05:57.612
this was so interesting. So then he decides against his counsel that he says, okay, but

01:05:57.612 --> 01:06:03.644
I'm now admitting that I lied the whole time, but I didn't kill, you know, my wife and son.

01:06:03.772 --> 01:06:07.372
So then he thought, and this is where a narcissist is so fascinating. He said,

01:06:07.569 --> 01:06:11.692
but look, I just admitted that I lied on all of these things. So now that means that you're going

01:06:11.692 --> 01:06:17.132
to trust me when I say, but I didn't lie about this. And in his mind, he was like, that makes

01:06:17.132 --> 01:06:22.172
good sense. Like literally just said lie throughout the whole proceeding. And then finally they said,

01:06:22.172 --> 01:06:26.012
did you lie about all these things? And he was like, man, it turns out I did. But if I'm admitting

01:06:26.012 --> 01:06:29.452
to that, then you'll believe me with this other thing. Right. Yeah. And he really thinks he's got

01:06:29.452 --> 01:06:33.396
that charm. Right. Or whatever. Like I can only imagine what would happen with that.

01:06:33.568 --> 01:06:40.337
Don't worry you guys. Like I, I, I promise. Like I know I messed up before, but now I promise like.

01:06:40.688 --> 01:06:46.732
Yeah, dude, that's all you'll ever be. Yeah. I thought that was an interesting comparison.

01:06:46.732 --> 01:06:51.446
I definitely want to like, maybe we could do that. The Murdoch case. It would be amazing.

01:06:51.612 --> 01:06:57.568
Okay. So if people have thoughts as well, I mean, send, send your questions in, right?

01:06:57.730 --> 01:07:02.252
Yeah. Yes. I guess I haven't even identified like how to yet. Right. Cause we have a

01:07:02.393 --> 01:07:05.452
murder on the couch that we have. Yeah. Okay. Can you edit that part out?

01:07:06.572 --> 01:07:13.212
That was beautiful. Thank you. I think that's pretty much all the facts that we have today. The court hearing,

01:07:13.212 --> 01:07:18.408
is that what you would call it? Is going to be in May, I believe. So there will be updates.

01:07:18.652 --> 01:07:23.452
There's not a death penalty. I was going to ask you about that. Yeah. There's not a death penalty there,

01:07:24.178 --> 01:07:30.652
which not to be like sadistic, but sorry, you have to sit in a jail cell forever. Cry about it.

01:07:30.652 --> 01:07:36.412
Yeah. Maybe it's on hopefully his tummy won't tell me. Hopefully they got some tongues for you,

01:07:37.204 --> 01:07:43.372
in the God. But yeah, I, I, yeah, I think that's it. Okay. So I'm sure we'll, we'll see you on the

01:07:43.372 --> 01:07:47.372
next episode where we'll cover yet another case, but I no doubt we'll come back and talk about

01:07:47.372 --> 01:07:56.172
this one in the future. Yes, for sure. All right. Thanks, Ed. Thank you guys. See you next time.

01:07:56.240 --> 01:08:14.800
Music.

01:08:14.798 --> 01:08:24.368
Okay so now I'm are you taking a selfie what are you doing good I think you'd

01:08:24.368 --> 01:08:36.048
look we will get episode two out what's a what's a old-timey phrase faster than

01:08:36.048 --> 01:08:43.048
you can... Where are you going to go? Faster than the chickens on the farm. That's what

01:08:43.048 --> 01:08:48.629
it sounds like. Faster than a June bug riding up a tick's bottom. Which I made that one,

01:08:49.367 --> 01:08:54.328
up. Oh, please edit that one out. June bug riding up a tick's bottom. Do you want to

01:08:54.328 --> 01:08:59.368
unpack that? You want to break that down for everyone? It has to do with childhood trauma.

01:08:59.368 --> 01:09:02.321
I was afraid of ticks, and I do know what a Junebug was.

01:09:03.050 --> 01:09:07.893
What? Yeah. We'll see you next time, on Murder on the Couch.

01:09:08.328 --> 01:09:11.928
Which just again, makes all of this so weird. It's so weird.

01:09:11.928 --> 01:09:14.186
Is this a safe use of the word sus?

01:09:14.411 --> 01:09:19.528
A very safe use of the word sus. Seems sus to me, Syd.

01:09:20.317 --> 01:09:25.700
Cool. Thank you. I feel like any word you say, and this is with love, I'm not gonna say anymore.

01:09:26.942 --> 01:09:30.368
Oh, you'll take it out of your vocabulary instead?

01:09:32.389 --> 01:09:40.368
Does that be bussing? That's one, right? Oh my gosh. Is it old one? Is it really? Mm-hmm,

01:09:41.445 --> 01:09:45.316
You know what chuggy mean? No Should I?

01:09:46.594 --> 01:10:06.728
Chuggy give me a hint. You're chuggy. Awesome. Fun fun, uh, nice, hilarious, um, supportive. So, um, I'd have to Google it. No, you just

01:10:06.728 --> 01:10:10.888
don't get to know. You'll find out one day.