Hey, Sid. Hey, dad. Welcome to our, well, no, no, no, no, no.
Are you kidding me right now? Are you serious? I'm the pro. Do you care about this podcast at all? I've only done 400 other
podcasts in my life.
Welcome back to welcome to Okay, look at you, bro. Right? Hey,
everybody, welcome to murder on the couch. I am your host. I.
Think I'm the co host. We're both co hosts. I think but I like you being the host. Okay. I'm the host. This is your host, Sidney Overbay. This is
Tony Overbay. I'm so used to going into the whole spiel. I'm a licensed marriage and family
therapist, a certified mindful habit coach, all that stuff. And I'm a college dropout,
but a world traveler. Nonetheless, can you technically be called a dropout if you really
kind of didn't attend? Right? Because it was during the whole COVID thing. That's true.
I did attempt attending a couple of times. Did you really? No. Well, yes, but no. Did
Did you ever get on the zoom calls or anything for college?
I would bring my laptop into the car and then I would just drive around while the zoom was
just playing. So you were attending technically. I was attending.
Was that in your height of your door dash days?
So we see you working hard while she's going to school and then just never again.
We're excited to bring you true crime meets therapy.
Exactly. So you're going to get the insight of a therapist, real life therapist, and the insight of someone
who needs therapy. That's true.
So this is going to be really exciting. And then the format, which I am so excited about is I am not going to prepare at all.
So these stories are going to be new to me, which I'm really excited about that.
No, yeah. I have been doing so much research on this case. I've read every article, I've gone to every corner and it's crazy.
Okay. It's really insane. What are we talking about today? What's the case?
We are going to be talking about the disability of the brain.
Music.
Listening to this please check out the YouTube version because there's so many
videos I feel like it really changes something when you put a face to the name also what if it has like four views that would be really humbling so you
should really go check it out okay bye,
Abby Choi was a mother of four a social media influencer a model a socialite she,
was so well known by everyone before we get into this case I want to make a
little disclaimer I feel like a lot of the coverage on true crime that has been
coming out lately is a lot more exploitative than informative, if that makes sense.
Yeah. A lot of it is just like, Oh, we want the gory details, you know, the shock factor.
It's gross sometimes.
And I really don't want that to be what this podcast is about.
I want this to be about the facts about in this case, Abby, and we're not romanticizing
the killers or anything. That's not what this is going to be about, but yeah, I've been waiting to tell you about
this for so long because it's been driving me crazy.
Okay. And I like what you're saying. So then I don't have to prepare my over-the-top reactions
then? You know, right? What? Or I don't have to do any of those? I don't do that very well.
No, no. This is going to be real. This is going to be real. Okay. Which if that's the case, are you prepared for me to interrupt?
Kind of like I just did there, but with amazing therapeutic knowledge around.
This is one of the fun things about me and my dad's conversations is nobody ever stops talking.
No, we don't. We just interrupt each other back and forth until the conversation in the therapy world. I call it flow.
Exactly. And when people don't appreciate that, they call it annoying, but I like the flow.
Let's talk about the case. I want to give a little credit.
I want to give a lot of credit to Stephanie Sue. She's a true crime YouTuber.
She's like one of the biggest people out there right now.
I enjoy those. You turned me onto her rotten mango is the name of her podcast.
She goes to town on these cases and gives all of the articles that she used for research
and stuff. So that really helped me with this credit to her and we'll have links to some
of the articles that you'll refer to in the show notes as well. I will be doing that.
Apparently that's what you do. Of course. Let's talk about Abby. Okay. First, Abby was
born on July 11th, 1994 in Hong Kong. Trying to do the math right now. 1994 when she disappeared,
She was 28 years old, super young.
She is the oldest of two sisters, so she has two younger sisters, and she has four children.
Four children by 28. All of her friends and family have nothing but nice, like everyone
loves this girl. She has such a genuine heart and a good spirit. Her current husband described her
as, and I quote, kind hearted and good person who always wanted to help others. Hearing him talk
about her was so sad, but so sweet. He was just saying how lucky his kids were to have her as a
mother. She was from a very, very wealthy family. So she grew up very comfortable, but she wasn't
like a bratty rich kid in any way. She seemed to be the opposite of that. Her parents actually
owned a huge construction business that ran throughout China. So she was very well known.
But like I said, she was not bratty at all. She was actually really, really giving. She was the
co-founder of Hong Kong's, and I'm sorry if I pronounced anything wrong, Payomes Charitable
Organization, which was an animal rescue organization. She's a good person.
Nick Loper Having means, but then also still co-founding a charity for innocent animals.
Nicole Loper Exactly. And I feel like when somebody is nice to animals, it really says something about their character because there's nothing in it for
you when you're nice to an animal, you know? Like they're not going to be able to give you anything.
So it just, it shows a lot of selflessness, I think. One of her friends even tells a story
about a time when they were walking down the road and they saw a very badly injured cat,
like had just been hit by a car. He said there was flies around it and stuff already.
And Abby was like, no, we are saving this cat. I don't care. Like her friend was literally telling
her like, that is a corpse, like, don't. And she said, no, I'm going to save this cat. And she did.
And the cat is doing so much better now. Really? Okay. So you spent time, you volunteered at an animal shelter in Costa Rica for two months.
Did you save any cats like that?
I was attacked by cats.
I was attacked by cats. I was attacked by rats. Bats. There were bats.
There were bats. Dogs? Dogs.
But what was that like though? All of the volunteers that would come in and out, they were all such good people. You
don't really catch a crappy person volunteering at an animal shelter.
No. Just like I would- Because what's in it for them.
Exactly. Yeah. Just like I would presume you wouldn't catch a bratty rich person literally
starting a charity for animals.
Okay. First experiences, therapists working with people that have money at times. One.
Guy told me, and I thought this was so good. He said that money makes you more of whatever
you are. So if you're a jerk, you become a bigger jerk. But if you're a kind person,
then you're even more kind. I like that. So it sounds like she took the money and became
even kinder and more charitable.
She was also a very, very successful model and influencer. Socialite is what they call
it, I think, online. And she worked hard at this. Okay. I was stalking her Instagram,
not in a creepy way, but research side note. I was thinking if I ever not even wanting
to put this into the universe, if I ever went missing, please use cute pictures of me, please.
So that's what I was researching pictures of her on like the, like just regular images.
And then I was like, if this were me, I would want people to use approved Sydney approved
pictures. So I went onto her Instagram and she's a hardworking model. Okay. Like it seemed
like she was somewhere new, not even every week, like every other day she was on runway.
She was modeling for everyone featured in Vogue. She was featured in Elle. She was a
regular attendee at Paris fashion week.
Um, I can, I can say I have never been invited to Paris fashion week. If that's what that says.
I wonder why. I don't know why it was called lost in the mail.
Yeah. I guess I've already done one. A shout out for Stephanie. Sue. How about one for
for Paris Fashion Week.
I don't know why that's so funny. I'm going to be putting a lot of pictures on the screen right now.
Just of her at all of her shoots and stuff because she looks amazing. She's so cool.
One thing that just kept growing and growing as I was researching this case was my love
for this girl. Like she's so cool.
So this is one of my favorite looks that she did. I'm kind of excited to see this.
They kept calling her a fashion icon. And at first I was like, fashion icon, like that's such a cringy word to say.
No, she is a fashion icon. Look at this look.
Literally so cool. She's wearing like leg warmer boots. Like I don't even know a Chanel
little dress thing. And like, she is so cool. I want to be here. Look at her bag. Look at
that bag. It's literally like, it looks like a perfume bottle. The things she's involved
in designing are so sick. There's so many pictures of her with animals in nature, like
doing arts and painting and drawing. Like she was really, she just seemed really talented
live in a life. Yeah. I'm probably going to cut this out, but there is this one picture
that I found on her Instagram and look how she's sitting. I'm literally, I'm the only
person that I know who sits like that. I'll put it up on the screen.
You must keep that in because I have, I've literally talked to your mom about how do,
you do that? Because I think I would pop every leg and tendon in my body on a hard chair.
Knees of steel. Now last February 14th, the middle of March right now. So not last, but
Like last year, this year, February 14th, Valentine's Day.
Valentine's Day, just a few weeks ago.
She posted her last instagram post.
And it was a repost of her on the cover of La Officielle magazine.
I don't know. One of my favorites.
It's been featured there many times. And they titled her one of the most sought out influencers in the industry.
So her career was booming. She was getting bigger and bigger every day. And so she was 28.
Yeah. Okay. Only 28 years old. There's a theory.
Some believe in psychology around 27 is when you start really taking off in life.
Athletes are at their prime at 27. So I wonder if that's an influencer thing as well. So she's
she's in her prime. Little did anyone know she would disappear just like 10 days after that.
Wow. So first I'm going to take you to the crime scene before we really get into it. Okay. So this.
Was February 24th. Police finally get enough information to go investigate. Abby's been
missing for three days at this point. Oh, okay. So police go to investigate this creepy apartment
on the bottom of three floors in Lung May Tsuen, a seaside village in Hong Kong.
Seaside. So I'm sure it was pretty nice. I would imagine.
Yes, it was nice. It was like a very public, really popular area.
Yeah. And immediately as the police pulled up, they knew that something was wrong because the house was so creepy. Okay. There were
long black tarps covering all of the windows and all of the entrances.
Okay. Neighbors also had been sussed out for weeks before this. I know what that means. They were suspicious.
The neighbors said that they'd never seen anyone spend the night at this house, but they just kept
seeing people kind of show up and leave. And they saw this old man who was just like chain smoking
on the side. He looked stressed out, but nobody knew who he was at this point. So the police opened
the door and the floors are covered in plastic. That's not good. I mean, unless they're painting
the ceiling. The ceiling was not being painted, I can confirm. Okay. The house was completely empty.
So no furniture or anything like that? Zero furniture. Okay, now this is really creepy.
As they walk deeper into the apartment, they are faced with what one article describes as
a human butcher shop. Upon further investigation, police found Abby's remains not only in the fridge.
But also cooked into two pots of soup with carrots and radishes.
I don't even know what to say. Absolutely not. Yeah. There's nothing to say.
Now, who would want to do this to such a kind, good-hearted mother of four?
What if I told you that it was not only the father of her own two children, but his entire family?
Oh. And not only that, but what if I told you this entire family was living under the roof of a luxury apartment that Abby bought them herself.
Okay. I don't, I was already kind of stumped a few minutes ago, but I don't
even know what to say to that. I mean, they couldn't. Yeah, it's insane. Right.
It really is. They bought, she bought them the place they're living in. Yes.
And then they not only murder her and it was a month ago. I feel like the best way to understand this case is to start with Abby's ex-in-laws,
the Kwong family. They are shady as fuck, let me tell you. But just laying it out first
so you can kind of like get a feel for who's here.
You have a family tree almost? Yeah, a little family tree moment. So first we have Kwong Kwao. He is the father-in-law,
the ex-father-in-law of Abby, and he's married to Jenny Lee. They have two sons together.
The oldest one's name is Anthony Kwong and Alex Kwong. And this is going to be Abby's ex-husband.
I feel like to really understand this, we have to start all the way at the top with
Kwong Kwao. So let's get into that. Now this is her ex-father-in-law.
So- Ex-husband's dad. Okay. Yes. This is all the way back in the early 2000s.
He was a former police sergeant in the Hong Kong police department.
And at this point they were doing pretty well for their family, I believe.
He loved this job. Okay. He was obsessed with this job. It was his entire identity. He was
good at it at first, you could say.
If that's the right word. He was awarded the Hong Kong Police Long Service Medal in 2001.
I think he even got another medal at some point too. He was confident. He loved being
a police officer. He loved the authority. And most of all, he loved the power.
Nathaniel It's like there's a little foreshadowing maybe? Nicole Yes, definitely.
Nathaniel It's crazy though. And I like the way that you laid it out because now my brain is going a million miles an hour of the whole family
is involved. And now we're talking about a decorated police officer.
Mm-hmm. Everything's going fine for Quan Quao until 2005 when a woman walks into the police
station, a victim of a crime. She's in distress, obviously. He took a liking to her immediately
and he felt connected to her for some reason, for whatever reason. And he was listening
to her and really like making her feel like he cared and like he cared about the case
in getting her justice. Yeah. She actually felt very appreciative of this. She felt safe.
I would imagine her scene. Okay. Which is so important in a situation like that. He's
calling her outside of the investigation at this point and stuff. And she still thinks
it's just for the investigation. Like he's that good of a police officer. She goes home
that night and she goes to sleep. Finally thinks that someone's listening to her case.
Everything's going great. And then she wakes up to a loud knocking on her door at like
five or six in the morning. Which first of all, why are you knocking on my door at five or six
in the morning? She does answer the door though, because it's police officer Quan Quao. And already
the power imbalance there. Of course she's going to answer the door, right? So she lets him in.
He says it's for the investigation or whatever. And he allegedly rapes her.
Oh man. In her own home. Okay
So, I have to say allegedly because he resigned immediately after this.
So that there wouldn't be an investigation? Charges were dropped.
They were. Okay. Exactly. Again, allegedly, hypothetically, there could have been a deal made or you quit and we let
this thing go or who knows?
Yeah. Who knows?
But it's pretty suspicious that as somebody who was so in love with this job, it was his
entire identity. him to resign immediately after. I don't know. It's just kind of suspicious to me.
So alleged, but it seems a little fishy.
Very fishy. This was all the way in 2005. She had nothing to gain from condemning a police officer.
As a woman, I don't see what she would have gotten out of that. And just the fact that
he didn't even try to defend it when this job was his entire life is very suspicious to me.
So then all of a sudden he just quits.
Yeah. He quits the one thing that gave him like character.
Again, alleged, but I can only imagine what do you say that, yeah, I just ran over there
at five in the morning. Yeah, exactly. Give her an update. Like what update?
Yeah. And it's like, if he had one, then he would have had a defense.
It just doesn't make sense.
The abuse of power, by the way, I, I mean, cause that, that stuff, when somebody is that
vulnerable and open and then you trust and you feel heard and understood and because
in my world of therapy, you get these things where people make claims against therapists
and you get a monthly update and every therapist, I think we'll go check out what the
accusations are and they're almost always someone ended up having an affair or sex with their client.
And they lose their license to get fine because it's like, here's this person that is opening
up and vulnerable and trusting you. And then here's this therapist that's saying, I feel a connection.
That's right. The power imbalance. Yeah. The power imbalance is bad. It's crazy.
Like, and just like to re-traumatize this girl who's already been through something
so traumatizing to make her feel safe.
And then to take advantage of that, like it's absolutely repulsive.
I just, I couldn't even believe that one's that is bad.
He resigns, the charges are dropped and he basically just never tries to get a job again.
His life kind of just plateaus from there. He doesn't want a job.
He doesn't try to get one.
According to all the online records, it seems that he just felt as though he was
entitled to the world, but he didn't have to work for it.
I feel like there's has to be some form of narcissism that runs through the
Kwong family because they think they are gods. And it's like, bro, what? You literally assaulted someone.
Wait, let's jump into the old therapy world because I work with, you know, this is a big
population of narcissistic personality disorder, people that struggle with that. And there's
a concept called confabulation, which is the narcissist creating a new narrative of what
really happened in real time so that it couldn't have been them. So that's where I feel like,
you know, somebody might resign, but it isn't because they did anything wrong. It's because,
are the ones, people don't understand them. They go victim status, you know,
yeah. Of course he wouldn't fight it because he knew that he would be wrong.
And then why would he try to get a job when now he thinks everybody's against them and you know,
what's he going to do? And it's just a way for that person to still justify their behavior.
So four years of unemployment pass on his part and then he becomes essentially.
Abbie Choi's sugar baby. Let me explain. In 2009, Abbie Choi meets Alex Kwong.
So she's about 15 then? Yes. She's 15 years old. He's also 15. And Alex Kwong is Kwon Kwa's son, as we know.
We can assume that Kwon Kwa was pretty excited when they met because Abbie Choi was from a very,
very wealthy family. Of course, we don't know all the details and facts about that,
but with what ends up happening, suspicious on his part and on Alex Kwong's part.
So they stayed together for three years and then they get married at age 18.
Ooh, that's young.
And then they pop out a baby within the same year when they were only 18 years old.
So very, very young marriage. Yeah.
Um, never do that. Anybody don't get married at 18. Do you know how old your mom and I were? Oh, what?
She was 19. I hope she wasn't a child. Yeah. What are you going with? I was 20. 20.
Did you know that? No, I didn't actually. No, we were, we thought. Wait, really? Yeah.
I just sat in. I thought you were like 24, honestly. No, no.
Wow. I was 20. She was 19.
I had a, not to say full head of hair. I had as much hair as I had ever had in my entire life.
And, but we really did think we were old. Okay. No, I got it.
If you're balding, marry young. Okay. Honestly, that is, that is a good one.
I'm going to say that. I'm going to say that. Balding Mary Young.
Honestly, that is the more you know. She was like, I caught her on my way down and her way up.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you guys met in the middle, but then it was just, you were winning.
Yeah. Talk about power imbalance.
Yeah. No, that was probably one of the greatest timing I've ever had in my entire life.
That and the first Black Friday we ever got, like a Nintendo, when we went to Walmart,
like at two in the morning.
Those two things are some of the greatest timing I've ever had in my entire life.
You did not just relate your marriage to that. Let me call mom.
I know. Let's see what she has to say. Do you know how old I am right now?
Ooh, 70?
Okay.
What? You do not think I'm 70. But yeah, so they got married at 18 though.
I mean, that is, that's really, really young. He was really excited because Abby Choi's parents, they were very wealthy and Abby was
also wealthy herself. She ended up having a net worth of $100 million, not dollars.
That's in the Hong Kong dollars. No, Hong Kong dollars. Hong Kong dollars. Yeah.
A hundred million. This is one of those things where that's either going to be $19.47 or
it's still a significant. She had a whopping a hundred dollars in her bank account. No, $12.7 million.
Oh, that's nice. Yeah. Now let's talk about Alex. This guy was a douche bag. Okay. He's a serial scammer.
Very much. That is a diagnosis. He's been wanted by Hong Kong officials since 2015 because he was
involved in a gold scam. He ended up scamming people of almost a million US dollars. Yeah.
So he would find people online and he would convince them that he was this huge gold investor.
He knew what he was doing. He'd get them to invest hundreds of thousands of dollars sometimes. And.
And then he would steal their money and ghost them, essentially.
Okay.
You said I've worked with people that have been scammed, romance scammed, financial scams.
Really? Yeah, and it's so sad because a scammer has no morals, no morality.
And so they just don't care at all, and they will do anything.
I mean, that's when you're starting to border on things like sociopath or psychopathology,
where people, not just emotionally immature, narcissistic, but zero empathy or care for others.
Which what creates that? What creates someone to be born without?
How do you not? It's interesting. It's a great question.
So, I work with a lot of narcissistic personality disorder and that's more of a really extreme
emotional immaturity.
So, they can't sit with any discomfort, you know, they never saw healthy relationships
modeled in their childhood. And so, things like gaslighting is basically this childhood defense mechanism because they
felt like if they were a kid and they got in trouble, then they may die.
So, they just, from the word go, they grew up and it couldn't have been them.
So, they get good at saying, I didn't do it. It was you. So, that's its own thing.
But when you look at sociopaths and psychopaths, now we're talking about some things happening in the brain.
So there's areas of the brain that literally never get blood flow.
So that there's the part that parts about empathy and things like that, that just nothing's happening there.
So those are people that just literally don't fear or care. And a sociopath learns to act within the world and appear that they are okay.
But sometimes they truly just don't understand.
But then a psychopath is one that has no fear of getting caught, has no fear of punishment.
And so they just will do whatever it makes sense that the only relationship that he had
to look at was exactly his father, who wasn't even trying to get a job.
I'm sure he was scamming to honest. I mean, I don't want to say that, but he definitely didn't have a great father figure in any way,
right?
In my line of work, you're not making an excuse for the crime, but sometimes you can say,
okay, that person, they had no chance in a sense.
Yeah.
I just, it's so hard for me to believe that because there's so many people involved and
And it's like, how did not one of you at one point ever just question this for a second?
The motive itself is just disgusting. It's like you're biting the hand that feeds you.
You're cutting off the hand that feeds you. Like it's insane. It just is.
Maybe as we get along through this, we'll talk sometime about narcissistic family systems
and that's where the whole family system operates around. In essence, it's king narcissist.
And then if anybody even tries to disagree, then it's like the whole unit is against them.
Over time, then the person that maybe feels like they would want to get out of that environment,
I mean, they have to basically cut off all ties and that can be really difficult too.
But you're right though, if that many people are involved.
Yeah. Cut off all ties or go to jail.
Yeah.
Like, that's why I just, I kind of have to believe that there's some narcissism or something.
I'm sure there's like probably more than that. There's probably like emotional manipulation
and stuff like that too, but it just seems like they had to have big ass heads and I
don't know where they were coming from.
So he was a scammer, and then he would find people online, take their money, and just no regard for what...
Zero regard. It reminds me a lot of Andrew Tate, actually. I don't know if you're familiar
with that. He had this program called Hustlers University where he would basically just teach
people how to scam. So crazy.
I heard a little bit about him, but I'm almost going to say, thankfully, I don't necessarily
work with the population that are eager to hear about him, but I would talk to people
whose kids were getting involved with Andrew Tate. Yeah.
Disgusting. Yeah. It turns out he was like a sex trafficker and stuff. Yeah.
So yeah, kind of these, they run in the same lane. I'm just going to say it.
He was actually sued for more than $1.6 million. I'm assuming it was Hong Kong dollars. It wasn't
specified. He was also recently charged again for, I think, seven more counts of theft.
He stole 39 necklaces, 32 bracelets. Wow.
There's more. I have a list. Let me pull out my list. 102 gold grains, six pendants,
10 tales of gold and 13 gold bars. And a partridge in a pear tree. I'm sorry, Sid.
That was, there you go. I mean, that just shows that this is, that's the air he breathed.
Yeah. Who can I manipulate? What can I steal? Who can I scam?
I also don't think he ever had a real job. If he did, it didn't stick. I can assume that Abby
didn't know about this kind of stuff at that point. They were also still pretty young.
They stayed together and after two years in 2014, they have another baby.
Wow. So two kids now, then in 2015, I believe it was three years after they were married.
There wasn't an exact date.
They get divorced.
I wonder, man, I wish, I wonder how she got out of that.
I mean, I'm grateful. She, that's so sad. It's so sad. I didn't even think about that.
Like she tried to get out of it. No, that's what I want to say, man, I work with so many people that are in those
kind of relationships and then they get out and then it's like just liberating and free.
Yeah. But she had two kids with him. So I think that's part of the reason why she felt
obligated to continue to support him. And it just sucks because he took that and he
just took advantage of her.
Okay. I just had the aha where you said when we were setting up the crime scene that, yeah,
So then she was taking care of, that was probably the house that she had bought them.
Oh yeah, we'll get into the house too. I still, when you hear the price, I just can't even,
believe. So yeah, they get divorced. We don't know exactly why. We can assume why.
Skip forward to 2016, Abby gets unofficially remarried. She reconnects with this guy and they
met each other when they were 10 years old. They were like best friends in grade school. And then
they reconnect, they fall in love. His name was Tam Chuck Kwan. And he was the son of the founder of
Yunnan Rice Noodles. I don't know exactly how to say it.
Oh, I like a good rice noodle, Sid.
Yeah. They're super popular. Okay. 10 years old, they met when they were 10?
Mm-hmm. Is there somebody in your past that was 10 that you would think would- Bleh. No. Okay.
Next question. He came from a wealthy and famous background as well. They had that in common. Not
that you need that in common and not that Abby cared about that, which is another thing. She
did not care about having that high title because she, she married Alex Kwon, which no offense,
full offense. He was not high up there on the pyramid. They stay together and they have two
more kids, another boy and another girl. Now in 2019, this is the year that Abby bought her ex
in-laws that house that we were talking about. So she buys her exes a $9.3 million four bedroom
luxury apartment, which like apartment, it's like a house.
And then we talked earlier. So the seaside town. No, this is a different place. This was in a place called Kodori Hill. It was a really nice
neighborhood. Wow. Very like highly prestiged. If that's prestigious. Yeah. Not even prestigious
enough to know that word, but $9.3 million. Yes. $9.3 million. And you could argue that it's
because two of her kids were going to temporarily live there because they were sharing custody.
But that's still incredible though. Generosity. She didn't have to find a place for his parents
either. No. Like, she just...
She didn't have that big of an obligation to them and you can tell that she just was so giving.
I can only imagine because I work with this type of population and I imagine that Alex just made
her life just a living hell of, you know, with the kid drop off and, oh, you think you're making
all this money. And again, all alleged, I don't know that, but just my experience is it's not
like things are peaceful after somebody separates from somebody that's narcissistic.
It kind of seems like all the effort is one sided. Yes, absolutely.
She bought the apartment. She was probably expecting that at that point, he would maybe,
pick up some slack and get a job. But no, they just, they took all the gifts and they were like,
yep, sugar mommy me, Abby. It just doesn't make any sense. They're living in this $9.3 million.
Luxury apartment that Abby bought them. So Tam, Chuck, Quan, and Abby, they start a family
together they have two more kids. Abby's career is just taking off every day. She's just getting
bigger and bigger, still supporting her exes. Which I think you made a good point. She's trying
to be nice because there's two kids there. Yeah, but two kids doesn't require a $9.3 million house
to be fair also. No, it really doesn't. No, I really feel like there's had to be an incredible
amount of manipulation still going on because we've already identified that Alex is a scammer.
Now let's move on to 2022, which is so weird to say literally last year, Abby is continuing to
support her exes and they are all seemingly still unemployed. Apparently Abby, the ex family and
her new family would all get along really well from the outside, which again, just like
makes this so crazy. It seemed so normal from the outside. They would vacation together. They would
go to dinners again, like you said, what was going on behind closed doors, but on the outside,
it just seemed like they were very healthy.
It's so wild because I work with this population and there's a face you put out to the public.
And a lot of times that is to cover up the manipulation or the immaturity that's going
on behind closed doors. But who knows?
Now let's introduce one more character to the story. This is Alex Kwong's older brother, Anthony Kwong.
Okay. and Abby actually seemed really close.
On social media. So it's like, you never really know. But I think it was very, very recent.
He literally posted a selfie with her that said like, sis, this is my sis. And he didn't even use that as an alibi. He actually just posted that.
He ends up being the last person seen with Abby on CCTV footage. Let's get into Anthony Kwong.
He, like his entire family could not keep a job. I guess at one point, Abby actually loaned him
a million dollars. I'm assuming it was in Hong Kong dollars.
Okay. A million of anything. Exactly. $1 million of something to start an egg waffle business.
I like a good one. I just literally ate a waffle at a break.
You did. I did. A strawberry, whatever those are called, waffles.
Well, you would not be eating one from Anthony Wong's waffle shop because it
failed pretty much immediately. Oh, okay.
It fails. And this one article I read said that literally all Abby had to say to that,
to the entire failing business, losing a million dollars was, it doesn't matter.
Soon after that, and apparently this was Alex Kwong's idea, Abby literally hires Anthony
Kwong as her full-time driver. And she pays him well over what the regular salary for a
driver would be. She's not only supporting her ex-husband, his children, his parents,
and there was a mother too. We'll get into her, Jenny. Jenny, you're not safe.
Not only that, but she also was fully paying the salary of Anthony Kwang and she helped him to buy
his own house. Oh, in addition to the $9.3 million. Okay. Yes. And one of the things that I also find
very messed up is because Anthony was her driver, it's safe to assume that she trusted him a lot
with her children, with her life. Like I just, I can't even begin to like describe how that makes me feel. No.
Wait, could you see yourself paying for your ex's stuff?
No. I wouldn't pay for my ex to live in a cardboard box. Okay.
Those are pretty cheap. No, no. Like I just, I can't, I can't even get in that mindset
and that's why I respect her a lot. So moving on 2022, Abby decides that she wants to sell
the $9.3 million apartment. It's about time. I'm sure they said, Hey, no problem. We'll
get our stuff and leave. Right? And the story ends. No, we don't know exactly why Abby wanted
to sell the house, but we don't need to. It was her house, but Kwong was not okay with
this decision at all. It really just doesn't make sense because Abby, it wasn't like she
was just kicking them out onto the street. Okay. She fully planned to relocate them.
She was going to, she was probably going to buy them another million dollars. Maybe downsize
a little bit, right? Literally. She was obviously not going to kick them out onto the streets.
It was her own children we're talking about, you know, but Kwong was not okay with this.
He felt entitled to this house for some reason.
It's important to add that the house was written under Kwon Kwa's name.
Oh, I'm sure he talked her into that.
I just, I know that I don't know that, but well, I'm not, not really.
Okay. Abby did that to save money on stamps or something. She actually ended up saving like a million dollars. Okay.
That as it was his house for some reason, which is ridiculous because Abby paid for
it in full. He did not make a single payment. Okay. And we don't know all the details here,
but it's clear that there was some kind of argument. There is an like alleged comment
or something that one of Abby's close friends said that Quan Quao told Abby that if she
sold the house, he was going to kill her. Okay. I can't find this quote exactly. I don't
even need this quote to speculate the motive, right? Absolutely insane. 65 year old man,
this girl pays your rent. Like check yourself. We know that Abby went and actually talked
to a lawyer about this and the lawyer let her know that as long as she could prove that
she bought the house herself, she could also sell it. So it seemed like everything was
going to work out fine. One report says that apparently people came in to view the house
while the Kwongs were still living in it. It's like, boo-hoo, that's how you sell a house.
I don't know. That part didn't even...
I don't care. It doesn't warrant killing someone. I wonder if Kwong was scared that this was Abbey
like beginning to cut them off. Yeah. Yeah. So they're starting to push them out and maybe make
them have to take care of themselves. And I feel like he was, yeah, maybe starting to catch on to
that and he freaked out. Yeah. Yeah. Cause it's wild to think that at some point someone started
plotting. Regardless there has like, there has to be more information, but it's thought that
This altercation is what sparked a fire in Bao and he began his meticulous plan to end
Abby Choi. What would the motive be, right? It doesn't, but it doesn't really make sense in
this case, right? Because why would they kill the person that's literally for them to live?
Yeah. So if Abby died, how it works in the system is her inheritance would be split amongst her
four different children. So because two of those children were Alex Kwang's children,
half of the inheritance would go to Alex Kwong because the kids weren't old enough yet.
I mean, at that point they'd be 10 and eight.
Yeah. I think that's it. Exactly. Fast math. It seems as though they killed Abby Choi.
For half of her inheritance, which is just like, get a job, dude. I can't.
At that point, how long it had been since they actually had a job, the dad, 2005 and Alex,
maybe never. Yeah. It's been years and years and years. This is 2022. His solution was not to go
find a means of working. It was to literally kill the person whose house he's been living
in for 10 years at this point. Yeah. Wow. Maybe not 10, almost 10 years. Yeah.
God. Now we move on to the timeline of the murder. February 21st, 2023, Abby is supposed
to pick up her daughter from school.
And nobody comes to pick up her daughter. So obviously this is so out of character for her.
She's a mother of four. She values her children so much. She is always there to pick them up.
Which is kind of impressive with all that she has going on as an influencer,
a fashion model or charity and her foundations, but she's there to pick up her kids.
The school calls Abby's husband.
Abby's husband is trying to get to Abby.
She's completely radio silent. The family thought that it might have to do with a ransom or something.
Oh, like a kidnapping?
Yeah. Yeah. They were waiting for some kind of call, like, we have your daughter. Yeah.
Drop off this money and meet us here. And obviously they were like ready to pay absolutely anything for her.
They had no idea that it was, it was the own people around her.
Nobody calls and they put out a missing persons report.
The next day, February 22nd, police start investigating immediately.
Their first suspect being the Kwong family. Now they weren't even really suspects yet at this point, but you know, ex-husband, Anthony
Kwong was Abby's driver.
Immediately the Kwongs are trying to mislead and confuse the cops.
Stephanie Sue called it like they're playing Tai Chi with them.
There was something fishy about it and the police caught on to it immediately.
And know that the police, this is what they do for a living and they know what seems like.
This isn't the way people normally act.
I don't think the Kongs knew how to act at all because Alex Kwong has the audacity to call Abby choice mother and say,
why didn't you warn me that the police were coming?
Why didn't you tell me about Abby first?
Like what that's not the normal way one would hand not that there is a normal but I mean there is in a sense.
Maybe I'm going to call mom and say I am so sorry. This is so sad not hey, why didn't you give me a heads up?
Yeah, it's crazy. the see that stuff's crazy like yeah.
I genuinely cannot even understand how your brain connects those to be like,
oh, the police just got mad at me. Oh, I'm going to go scream at her mother. Like that makes no
sense. Are you kidding? She's messing up their plan though. So at this point,
the police knew that the Kwong's weren't going to cooperate. So they just went in instead.
After checking CCTV footage, they saw that Anthony Kwong was actually the very last person to be
seen with Abby. And he, we've identified he was her chauffeur. Yes. They go into the vehicle's
GPS tracking or whatever. They can do that. I guess. Have you ever heard of a black box
in an airplane? Nope. Okay. It's like if the airplane crashes, you can get a lot of data
from it. Cars actually have a similar thing where you can go in and you can find out,
it will tell you everything from hard stops, how fast you went, directions you went.
So they can go in and basically find out where the car went. Wow. Isn't that a trip?
I actually found that on the day of Abby's disappearance, Anthony's car, which was actually Abby's car, right?
I add a seven seater big car had driven not to pick up Abby's daughter to an apartment
in long mates when we talked about at the beginning.
Exactly. Okay. So murder house. Okay.
So the, I was confused. The apartment that now they know the car had driven to in the seaside village was not the
the $9 million house that she had purchased. She was starting to say, Hey, I think we might
need to sell, which is what we were starting to think. Oh, that's why Quan Qua was getting
upset. Maybe that was where they started plotting things. And so then they go and rent this place.
A new house. Okay. Which already Thank you, GPS in a sense.
Yeah. Yeah. Which already just doesn't make sense at all because why, why do they need
another house? Or are they screaming, crying about how they don't have a house? Who rented this house.
Yep. Yep. And don't kick us out of the other house. house meanwhile but now the GPS records show
this place. The cops drive straight to this apartment and as we described before, it's creepy, okay?
It's covered in black tarps.
They can't go inside yet. They don't have a search warrant.
They can see from the outside, something is going on in there.
They're talking to all of the neighbors.
I believe they did a door to door interview with everyone in the village.
They were getting all the different surveillance footages from the houses and all the dash
cameras on the cars. Like it is weird to think there are cameras kind of everywhere.
The ring cams, the dash cams, the CCTV, to the GPS, to the, what were the Kwongs thinking? The idiots. Yeah.
And that's where I'm like, they thought they were on top of the world and it's like you
are just- That's a narcissist for you though.
They are above the law and they will get away with it in their mind because they have up
until that point, whatever it is, 32 necklaces, 64 gold chains, whatever those things are.
The dad cop not being acquitted for the alleged rape of that person that had entrusted him.
So at this point, they're getting away with, we've got us a $9 million house, everything.
They're interviewing all of the neighbors. They were able to get enough footage basically
of them seeing Anthony and- So they're going to see the Kwangs everywhere.
Yeah, all around. Oh, everywhere. Yes.
And neighbors had been very suspicious at this point. They had a lot to say. They kept
seeing someone show up to that house, but no one was ever spending the night. They saw
some guy, I think we talked about this earlier, like chain smoking outside of it, never would
smile at anyone, never would say hi to anyone. They finally got enough information to get
a search warrant and immediately they go inside and it's just an absolute horror scene. There's
plastic all over the floors. It's completely empty.
No furniture. No furniture. I think there was like maybe like two pieces of furniture, but everything else was empty. The bedrooms were completely
empty. There's only one reason why they rented this place. Exactly. It was not lived in. No. At all. Wow.
As they go deeper into the house, it just gets worse and worse. There was a meat slicer,
an electric saw, a hammer, face shields, black raincoats. It was so obvious at this point.
So premeditated, everything.
And what really sold the police was a detail that we'll get into next. And that was Abby's purple
handbag sitting in the house. Now, this was the last handbag that Abby was seen wearing
on that CCTV footage when she was getting into Anthony's car.
Oh, okay. Yes. So now that the police have all of this information, let's go over what they think.
Happened the day of Abby's disappearance. So back to the 21st of February, the day that
Abby disappeared. She was waiting at her house in Cadori Hill for Anthony to pick her up
to go get her daughter. So Anthony comes and he picks her up. Everything seems normal at
that point from what we know. And of course, these aren't facts. This is just what the
police have interpreted from the GPS.
Because there hasn't been a trial or anything like that yet.
No, the trial has been adjourned until May. So Anthony picks up Abby.
Yeah. So she had a camera like right outside of her house so they could see her fully.
Wearing your all-white, white shirt, white pants, white shoes, which You
You're a mother of four and you can wear all white. So great. And this purple bag.
And that was what ended up solidifying that they knew it was Abby at the crime scene. Okay.
Anthony leaves. They've got that footage. They were able to pull the GPS data from the car and see that he went right to that town,
that seaside town and the apartment.
More specifically, what they think happened is Abby gets into the car with Anthony and
they believe she might've gotten into the backseat.
Her and Anthony are driving, they were approaching this tunnel called the Lion Rock tunnel that
goes into the mountains north of downtown Hong Kong. Anthony suddenly starts to slow
down and stop the car. So at this point, I can't even imagine what's going through Abby's head.
No. Oh gosh. Because I'm sure, I guess I don't know the route, but she probably knows
at this point we're not going to pick up.
Yeah. Oh, that's sad. Scary. pulls over and he stops the car. I don't know if there was conversation, if there was arguments.
Can we also just talk about how this is Anthony Kwong, her own personal driver. Like she trusts
this man. Like this is essentially like a kind of like a bodyguard almost. She trusts him with her
life and he's betraying it. The car slowly comes to a stop and the police believe in comes Abby's
ex-husband, Alex Kwong.
But she was terrified.
Now, nobody knows exactly what happened after this point, but it's guessed that
there was some kind of altercation that happened in the car where Abby was either
knocked out or maybe killed right then.
I just, I cannot even imagine how terrifying that whole situation would have been for her. Hmm. It's...
It's just her, she was literally going to see her daughter, the, like, the most important thing to her.
And that's the stuff that just, it freaks me out and just breaks my heart at the same time,
whenever people are going to meet their end. And that's where, boy, you just, not that you want
anything to happen, but that I hope that it, they just didn't drag things out.
Yeah. Me too. The police are still investigating. It's February 23rd now, two days after her
disappearance, more than 150. Okay. I'm the first person to talk crap about the police system and
all of that, but they've got it down in Hong Kong. I mean, I don't know anything, but I don't know
anything about anything. And this probably was like a really high profile case and stuff, but.
They sent more than 150 detectives from the Kowloon West Regional Crime Unit. They were
all tasked with investigating this disappearance. So that's a lot of people on the case.
So as they enter the house, like we said before, the floor is completely covered in plastic.
The walls are covered in drapes. It's already so terrifying. I can't imagine like those police
officers could not have been expecting what they were about to see. They found two giant pots of
soup, which upon further investigation, they found to be Abby's remains and Abby's head.
After investigating and finding Abby's remains in the soup, and they also found,
this is terrible, just warning, two of her legs in the fridge, they still couldn't find all of
her remains though. They did find that on the back right, I think, of her skull was some kind
of marking or indentation of assaults. So we don't know exactly what.
Her in the back of the head at some point. That's what police assumed could have happened
maybe in the car to knock her out before the tunnel. But then, yeah, unfortunately, like
nobody knows when she actually lost her life and hopefully it was just right away in that car.
Honestly, like I said before, though, how many people are in on this? They're part of this plan
and then they know that they're going to cook her and eat her. And how did not one person have
something to say? Okay. So now let's get into the arrest because there are a lot of them.
And don't you feel like at that point? Oh, they have everything they need. Oh, yeah, and they did February 24th. Okay in Hong Kong
Wait, when is your birthday?
February 25th. Oh, wow. Yeah. Okay weird, right? Yeah, I I was.
Blacking out while this guy was getting arrested is basically what happened asleep, but sure. Yeah, okay
So right away February 24th after investigating that terrible house, they go straight to the Kwong's to arrest the whole family
Okay, Anthony Kwong is arrested. Kwong Kwao is arrested and their mother Jenny Lee is also arrested.
She was just arrested for destroying evidence while the other season on it. Yeah
No, they are all in on it, which is so insane. Anthony and Quan Qua are obviously facing
murder charges, but Alex Quan is nowhere to be found.
Oh. Yeah.
But we think that he's the one that had jumped into the car before the tunnel. Yeah. No.
Okay. So where was he? He's running for his life. He's scared. Like, oh my, this guy, he's such a little wimp.
Well, he'd been running from the cops since, what was it? Like 20, whatever, 15?
2015. gold scam. Oh yeah. He probably knew the second that he got arrested, they were going to be
charging him with this and they did. Okay. God. Okay. Nobody can find Alex. Where's Alex?
I'm sure that Anthony and qual and Ginny, nobody's going to tell. Oh yeah. Nobody's cooperating.
February 25th, the very next day and your birthday and my death and my birthday. Yeah.
The police intercept him trying to escape on a speedboat. Oh, this is like a bad movie.
Yeah, yeah. He gets caught. Thank God. Yeah. He's on a speedboat and he had like, I think
it was like $86,000 and then he had like a ton of just luxury watches, just watches with him.
So let me grab all my stuff while I go hit the, go on the run in my speedboat.
Yeah. He, he really thought he was like fricking James Bond or something.
I didn't know if you would know that reference. I honestly- It's a total James Bond move.
I don't even know who- I just know that as a cultural reference.
Now that I say, I don't really know, but I'm glad that it worked.
100%. That's, I immediately thought, yeah, that's a James Bond thing.
No. Yeah. But that's not him at all. He's quite the opposite.
He's a shrimp little guy.
Oh my gosh. Okay. So the police intercepts him. They find him, they pull him off his speed boat
or whatever. And he has the audacity. Okay. Maybe this is real, but he literally tells them
that his stomach hurts. Well, then they're probably gonna let him go. I mean, if he had
a bad tummy ache, I mean, then, you know, cut the guy some slack, right? Did he really think
think that they were going to have sympathy for him?
I don't care if your tummy hurts.
Why do you think your tummy hurts, bro? Because you're a murderer. Like, it's so crazy.
We're probably going to find out because he swallows and watches. So we can try to instrument
a prison or whatever.
So they take him to the hospital for his tummy ache and then thank God he doesn't slip away
or anything. They keep him. He's arrested and yeah, he gets charged for so many. He
gets charged for like seven different counts of theft that we went over earlier. Like they're
getting on him for everything and obviously murder too.
Nathaniel So at this point we have Anthony, Kwan-Kwau, Alex, we got Jenny, the mom.
Nicole Yes, all arrested. They also arrested this guy who was trying to help Alex escape on the boat. So I guess he was like a yacht guy.
Nathaniel A salty sea captain? Nicole Yeah. Nathaniel Okay. Nicole He was arrested.
Nathaniel So up to five. then now a sixth person is arrested, okay?
And you're like, who even could this be?
So the police actually find out that Quang Quao hadn't even been the one to rent out that apartment
where they killed Abby.
It was actually his mistress.
Wait, let me gather myself and act surprised.
Wait, he was unfaithful?
Yeah. Who would have thought? No. Yeah. Now that crosses the line. This guy, like he was
a cheater too. Like of course he was a cheater. Shocking. Shocking. Okay. So I'm glad. So
she rents the place. She's aiding and abetting. I don't even know. I'm making that up. I've
watched some law and order. Yeah. So we're up to six. Yeah. So this lady, she was a masseuse
and she helped him to rent out that house, which you can't, you can't rent out your own
you can't even rent out the murder house either. He can't do anything. So apparently his mistress
had been not showing up to work and she was just telling everyone, she's like, yeah, I
found this nice rich old man who's taking care of me.
Nathaniel Oh, so I wonder how long she'd been with him and now she's arrested as accessory to murder.
Nicole Yeah. And she thought that she had a sugar daddy. Little did she know her sugar daddy was a sugar baby to a 28 year old girl. It's.
Insane. So yep, a sixth person is arrested. At this point, it seemed like everything was
kind of wrapping up. Nope. March 9th, another person is arrested.
So we're talking 10 days ago at the time of this recording. At the time of this recording. Hopefully I can edit fast. This girl was, I think she
She was a social media influencer also.
Her name was Irene and she helped Alex hide from the police basically.
Seven different people arrested all for this one case.
How did no one, how did not one person say something like, how did nobody think that this was not okay?
Not just even just a, not like just a normal murder is okay. It's not. But the fact that
they had this murder house and they had all the, the, the killing devices and then so
premeditated. Yeah. And then the, where does the cooker in eat her?
And that part is so sick. Okay. I do want to talk about that. So there is that creepy
element of like, why did they have her in the soup? What were they doing? I saw a couple
articles written on this actually, and it was just the whole vibe of the article itself
is creepy, but I guess it's like an actual problem, air quotes around problem, in Hong.
Kong because it's so public and so like, what is it? What's the word? Populated?
Oh, I was going to say like the population is so condensed and congested.
Basically it says, the dismembering of limbs reflects the realities of life in Hong Kong.
Simply put, it is much harder to hide a body in the tightly packed city, home to tiny apartments
in some of the world's most densely populated neighborhoods. I guess people think that this
may have just been a way to get rid of her body, but I don't know.
I know that I used to travel to Japan four times a year for a decade. So I went there
so many times. And we used to joke about trying to find a garbage can anywhere because it's
so densely populated that people were so, you just, you recycled everything. You were
very good about not wasting and you just, they're just really, it's not like us where
there's big dumpsters everywhere and you're just big garbage piles or because if you can't
get, I mean, I see what you're saying. The article, it's an odd vibe, but I'm looking
at it right now as you're saying that in Hong Kong, subtropical, humid climate, the smell
the body very quickly captures attention, hence why some murderers might attempt to
remove the smell by cooking dismembered parts.
So it's like, you can't just go put it out in the woods somewhere because it's, you're in city,
densely populated city. Yeah, I guess. And I don't know. It's just, it's so interesting. I
don't even know if interesting is the right word, but it does seem like it was really hard for them
to dispose of her body. I think they like attempted to take it to a cemetery. Basically
they were like spreading her remains like all over. Yeah. Looking over your notes now,
because I'm looking at this all fresh, but I'm seeing one thing that says the search for her
torso and hands is still ongoing. So I see what you mean. So they were trying to get rid of pieces
in different places and then maybe it was cook the bigger parts to... It's just so crazy.
So now we've got seven people arrested? Nicole Rada Yes, seven people. And that is
right now. Who knows? This case is still unfolding every day. So if we have to make an update, we will.
Yeah, yeah. Here's a real person that now has kids and they don't have a mom and that
just breaks my heart. And so- Yeah. The kids are being kept with Abby's mom and Abby's family right now, thankfully.
So they're doing okay. But yeah, it's so sick and twisted and how could you rip somebody's
family apart like that? And not even that, but in Alex Kwong's case, your own family.
You're putting this on your own two children, like the most traumatizing event you could
probably ever go through on your own.
I'm telling you this as somebody who works with the population of narcissism and personality
disorders in general, I feel confident in saying that people in that position, the last
thing they're thinking about is anybody.
I mean, literally other than themselves, because I will have people where we're going to say,
Hey, you got to do what's right for the kids. And I know this is a completely separate thing, but then the narcissist is going to continually,
say, yeah, no, I want to do what's right for the kids.
And then they feel like, okay, but now that I've said that, now let me tell you how bad
my ex-wife is, or let me tell you all the reasons why she shouldn't do this.
I mean, they still cannot, they can't think of anyone other than themselves.
They just can't. I mean, it goes against what it feels like to be them.
So looking at it, and again, we're not diagnosing, but I'm just curious, looking at this as if
it was an abusive, narcissistic relationship, because it could have been, we don't know,
but it really could have been.
Do you like have any advice? What would you tell people to do if you're in that situation?
It's so crazy because the more you study the concept around what a trauma bond is, is that
again, I would, I would feel very confident calling Abby what I call pathologically kind,
which means the kindness is who she is. I mean, that's just what it feels like to be Abby is kind.
And then you've got somebody like Alex Kwong, and I'm going to say incredibly emotionally
immature, bordering on narcissistic or sociopathic or psychopathic.
Type of personality. Again, I don't know him. I can't diagnose the public, you know, anybody
on the public, but then that forms this concept called the human magnet syndrome, which means that
the more that Abby tries to even speak up for herself or what she feels like is best for her,
for the kids, then she's basically handing Alex the playbook of the buttons to press,
to get her even more upset. So then when he wants his way, then he will just probably call her,
you, Oh, you think you're better. You think you make more money than me. You think you're
a better parent and then making her feel bad because she's kind.
So she's going to want to say, Oh no, no, no, I, I don't think that, and I want what's best for all of us.
And so I think that's where Alex would have most likely manipulated her into the houses
and the cars and the making her hire his brother. And so at some point the pathologically kind person, they are going to have to just do
what they feel is right for them.
And then know that is going to cause him to even push more buttons and more buttons.
And that's the unfortunate part is for somebody like her to break away from a guy like this,
it's going to be incredibly difficult because that's where he gets his fix.
So if somebody is in a situation where they feel like every time they try to speak their
own mind or do what's best for them or what they feel like is best for their kids and
the other person makes them feel even worse, boy, they got to get help.
You know? Yeah. And I hope it doesn't sound like I'm like saying this, like Abby could have done anything
because she could like, I'm just going over it again in my head and it's like, she couldn't
have, she did everything she could. She divorced him and she was just caring for her kids.
She tried to leave him and he, they were just leeching off of her. Like literally leeching
not trying to like plug anything, but I've got a podcast called waking up the narcissism
that if somebody is in one of these emotionally abusive or narcissistic relationships, it sounds like.
The patterns are just so consistent that if somebody goes and starts looking up the concepts
around gaslighting, or they go listen to a podcast like mine, or there's a lot of experts
around narcissism. And when you start to listen to what we have to say, you will start to feel
like, wow, this person was listening on our conversations, or they were in my home because
you hear the same things over and over. And that's where gaslighting comes from. Or,
you know, that's where just when you try to get out of a situation where that person will just
make you feel even worse until you finally say, no, no, it's okay. Cause you want to
calm the situation down. Cause you're trying to protect your kids. And it's just, yeah, it's just unfair.
One thing I saw that was interesting was a lot of people were actually relating
Alex Kwong to Alex Murdaugh in the Murdaugh case. And I haven't really done my like.
Invest, like I haven't gone down that hole yet, but do you see how that could be?
Yeah. I mean, it's a lot of that just feeling entitled or privileged and then
very manipulative, not taking ownership or accountability of anything that is happening
in their life. And then really just, I think, so used to taking advantage of others. So
that's just the air they breathe. It's kind of the feel I get.
Yeah. And that, that is a good way to put it. It is really like scamming, lying, cheating
is the air that Alex Fong breathes.
And other people kind of covering up for the things that they do. Because in the Murdoch
case, he was this person that was just completely manipulative, changed the story at any chance
he had even when he was testifying under oath and in the court case. And I can only imagine,
I don't know what Hong Kong's justice system is like, but you get a narcissist on the stand
and they can't, it's not like they can all of a sudden learn how to take ownership or
accountability of things. So I would imagine it's going to play out very similar. So I.
Don't know. I don't know if they do, if they publicize those court cases in Hong Kong.
I don't know. It would be amazing to watch that. I've had five or six court cases where
I've, I've been a part of that have had to do with someone with narcissistic personality
disorder and they cannot keep it together on the stand. I mean, because they're lying
in the very moment to kind of get themselves out of each situation individually.
And I can't, that's like putting a narcissist in the most insane position ever. Right? Because
you have like a hundred people looking at you telling you that you're wrong and you
in your brain could never even begin to think that you're wrong. Right. So that was just,
They must just squirm.
I had, I had a situation once where I'm being cross-examined by this narcissist attorney.
The narcissist was the client and his attorney. And then he just said, you know, is it true that you're a big proponent of concealed weapon
permits?
And I've never said that in my life, but the narcissist would carry a concealed weapon.
As a matter of fact, I got really frustrated with him one time because he had an outburst
in my office and then we terminated therapy because I know that this guy has a concealed weapon.
You know, he like was freaking out in your office and you knew that he like, yeah, yeah.
So then we terminate and then I continue working with a spouse.
And then when the court case came down, I just thought it was so interesting that the
attorney was saying, isn't it true that you, and he was trying to build that I must have
about a relationship.
The narcissist. And I said, Oh, uh, no, that's not even close to it. I've never said that.
As a matter of fact, I'm not a big fan of that, you know, especially in my office.
And you just watched, I feel like it was one of those things where the, you could see smoke
pouring out of the narcissist ears and their head was starting to get ready to explode
because they're, they're saying, no, this is not what you said, but then they couldn't have an
outburst in the courtroom. Yeah. It's crazy. I really hope that there's more out on this
and we can, I mean, it sounds bad, but I want, I kind of want to watch him squirm in a way.
It's talking about satisfying. If there's anything that would be, it's to watch the narcissists.
Well, yeah, cause that's kind of the only situation right in court where that like you
can ever really fit a really bad narcissist down and be like, you're wrong.
Okay. So Alec Murdoch, what was crazy about his case and we don't have to spend much time
on this, but he got caught lying over and over and over and over again. And then I thought
this was so interesting. So then he decides against his counsel that he says, okay, but
I'm now admitting that I lied the whole time, but I didn't kill, you know, my wife and son.
So then he thought, and this is where a narcissist is so fascinating. He said,
but look, I just admitted that I lied on all of these things. So now that means that you're going
to trust me when I say, but I didn't lie about this. And in his mind, he was like, that makes
good sense. Like literally just said lie throughout the whole proceeding. And then finally they said,
did you lie about all these things? And he was like, man, it turns out I did. But if I'm admitting
to that, then you'll believe me with this other thing. Right. Yeah. And he really thinks he's got
that charm. Right. Or whatever. Like I can only imagine what would happen with that.
Don't worry you guys. Like I, I, I promise. Like I know I messed up before, but now I promise like.
Yeah, dude, that's all you'll ever be. Yeah. I thought that was an interesting comparison.
I definitely want to like, maybe we could do that. The Murdoch case. It would be amazing.
Okay. So if people have thoughts as well, I mean, send, send your questions in, right?
Yeah. Yes. I guess I haven't even identified like how to yet. Right. Cause we have a
murder on the couch that we have. Yeah. Okay. Can you edit that part out?
That was beautiful. Thank you. I think that's pretty much all the facts that we have today. The court hearing,
is that what you would call it? Is going to be in May, I believe. So there will be updates.
There's not a death penalty. I was going to ask you about that. Yeah. There's not a death penalty there,
which not to be like sadistic, but sorry, you have to sit in a jail cell forever. Cry about it.
Yeah. Maybe it's on hopefully his tummy won't tell me. Hopefully they got some tongues for you,
in the God. But yeah, I, I, yeah, I think that's it. Okay. So I'm sure we'll, we'll see you on the
next episode where we'll cover yet another case, but I no doubt we'll come back and talk about
this one in the future. Yes, for sure. All right. Thanks, Ed. Thank you guys. See you next time.
Music.
Okay so now I'm are you taking a selfie what are you doing good I think you'd
look we will get episode two out what's a what's a old-timey phrase faster than
you can... Where are you going to go? Faster than the chickens on the farm. That's what
it sounds like. Faster than a June bug riding up a tick's bottom. Which I made that one,
up. Oh, please edit that one out. June bug riding up a tick's bottom. Do you want to
unpack that? You want to break that down for everyone? It has to do with childhood trauma.
I was afraid of ticks, and I do know what a Junebug was.
What? Yeah. We'll see you next time, on Murder on the Couch.
Which just again, makes all of this so weird. It's so weird.
Is this a safe use of the word sus?
A very safe use of the word sus. Seems sus to me, Syd.
Cool. Thank you. I feel like any word you say, and this is with love, I'm not gonna say anymore.
Oh, you'll take it out of your vocabulary instead?
Does that be bussing? That's one, right? Oh my gosh. Is it old one? Is it really? Mm-hmm,
You know what chuggy mean? No Should I?
Chuggy give me a hint. You're chuggy. Awesome. Fun fun, uh, nice, hilarious, um, supportive. So, um, I'd have to Google it. No, you just
don't get to know. You'll find out one day.