And please review us in your podcast app,
so other people can find the show and
so I can learn how to talk. Lisa.
I can barely talk.
I love that the full circle reading of
this is that the book of Job is
a temporary and
come. This is why that calling it the
backpack trip of job is actually an exaggeration
because I. Although I guess Boat, Job in
the end does get healed. Right? God's. Like,
3.
Yes. And he... Well, he makes it back
quite well,
it's weird.
Because it's the bible. Right. So he gets
back twice of everything.
Mh.
But
he doesn't get back the 10 children he
had. Yeah. He gets 20 new children, Right.
Which you're like,
It's because children
don't matter in and of themselves, but only
as possessions of adults. Which actually is a
nice transition into the novel that we're gonna
talk about. Okay. Yeah. That's not bad. That's
not bad. We always...
You know, 1 thing I will say about
us is that
we always land to the plane. Well, I
think we should talk about the blue eye.
Yeah. I think we already are, but in
a way that's in a way, we're certainly
talking about the kind of internalized
judgments and hi of a small community, which
is 1 of the themes of The
book 19 70,
Tony Morrison, the great Tony Morrison debut novel,
kind of a novel isabella, it's in it's
an awkward length. Right? Like, if you were
picking it up on in a paper pack,
it'd probably be what, like a hundred 30
pages or something like that. Mine is my
mine is is 207 page. Okay. Short novel
And, yeah. Short novel. Yeah. Long,
it is awkward. You know.
But there's nothing particularly like,
tight... Like, there's nothing weird about the type
set in this edition. You know, it seems
like a normal sized book. Yeah.
But
Boy, what a debut?
Yep. Yep. And also, this is the beginning
of our banned book series. This book is
often challenged
in high school,
C,
it was challenged in Brow County, Florida, just
last year. It was challenged in Rocky
River City Schools Ohio just last year. It
was challenged in
Wen,
Missouri and also
in
Bedford County, Virginia county. I'm very familiar with
a beautiful place. Unless you feel judgmental about
these places. The only reason we know about
these challenges are somebody's fighting back.
So
the people in these places are not missus...
Are not all terrible people.
And
you know, the the the the issue with
book bands, we can talk about another time.
I certainly think there is a role for
parents who are concerned about what their children
are reading in school, and I think parents
have the right to express that. But what
we've been seeing lately is more kind of
like an ass script social movement.
Yeah. That
has a more
nefarious
so strategy
and means and purpose.
And, you know, but I'm happy to have
a discussion about whether
I think
I would have second thoughts about my kid
reading the blues eye at various ages,
maybe by eleventh or twelfth grade.
I would be comfortable with that with some
contextual commercialization. I would probably not be comfortable
with that in eighth or ninth grade. Even
though maybe I'm... Maybe I'm wrong.
About that. But there... There's some heavy stuff
in the book. Okay.
And and
stuff that I'd wanna make sure
kids
can...
Can,
not conceptualize,
contextualize.
Properly
before,
I expose them to it. But shall we
do a a recap? Yeah. So we
open the action in the early 19 forties
in Lorraine, Ohio.
Our
major characters are Claudia, who's is kind of
our a narrator, although sometimes the narrator and
sort of, like,
drifts away from the first person of Claudia,
to other narrator that couldn't possibly be Claudia.
Right? And and generally when that happens, we're
now in third person. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The
only first person narrator with maybe...
I can't think of any exceptions is is
Claudia. With the exception of sop head churches
letters to God. Yeah. Epi to God. Right.
We meet her sister Frida, who is older
and helps us
experience claudia like Naive. Yep. Which is why
there. And then Pe Breed love, a girl
who is a little older than Claudia who
moves in with them.
He's We watch. We get to see for
several chapters, Claudia Freedom and Pe,
struggle with the normal t prevail of childhood.
So, like, dealing with shitty peers and cruelty
and os hospitalization,
abuse and kindness from their parents,
and then going through puberty and sexual maturity.
Along the way,
all of the characters
begin to
see and experience how unfair the world can
be.
And then, you know, and this is maybe
a third of the way through,
rather than
following
Claudia through a kind of coming of aged
tale, which is kind of how it feels
like, we're being set up. Like, we feel.
At least I felt like, okay, Claudia is
gonna go through something. She's gonna have some
experience that's gonna change her in. That does
happen. But what actually starts happening is
kind of like narrative
concentric circles
around Pickle breed loaf. Yeah. And we get
to know more about her circumstances.
There are flashbacks. We see her family life
back when she lived with her parents before
they they had a recent, like, fight and
fire,
which is the occasion of her moving in
with Claudia and Fried.
But prior to that, they were living together,
and they had a very,
I would say
dysfunctional,
occasionally loving,
often abusive
relationship. The parents did.
Then we kind of even widen our concentric
circles and learn about some other people in
the community.
And then we also 1 of the sort
of themes,
we start learning more and more about Pe
his father, Charlie, and we see him as
a child.
We see him at... A young teenager
having a kind of sexual coming of age
experience that is interrupted horrific by a couple
of white men with a gun who essentially
force him to have a sexual experience with
a woman
while they watch.
And then we also watch
him run away from home and try to
find his biological father, but she succeeds in
doing, but to horrible affect
his... He he can't even really communicate to
his father, who he is and why he's
there, and his father is quite mean, although
perhaps in some ways, he would have been
nicer. If he understood who this boy was,
but but he doesn't.
And then that sort of snaps us back
to the present in where we have a
scene in which,
Charlie, you know, now a man in his
forties or fifties
has sex with Pic
who's at that time, probably 12 or 13
or something like that.
Yeah. And in the final chapter, kind of,
wraps everything up. We learn what happens to
pick as a result of the pregnancy and
how the other characters in the novel
makes sense of it all.
And
and they all look happily ever after.
Yeah.
No.
They don't. It ends on a down.
It not a happy ending. Although Claudia and
Free survive. Claudia does feel something like a
stand in for Toni Morrison perhaps
in some in some ways. Yeah. There's a
lot of there's a lot of arthur
touches. And ge did great
great character, great device. Yeah Like. And Morrison,
whether or not, Claudia is an author insert
or not, they exist. You can do them
well. You can do them badly.
Morrison, like, like, almost everything in this book,
does it really, really well? Oh, and there's
another voice you get,
that's not Claudia first person that's often the
sort of omni omniscient
narrator
who's speaking almost soc physiological
about the community.
Yep. And, you know, whether that's sort of
a the voice of the memoir,
author, or it it does appear to be...
Tony Morrison
observation in the voice of a kind of
omniscient narrator about how
I mean, Toni Morrison was from Lora, Ohio
at around this time. And so she's... There's
a lot of time in Inc... Spent just
describing life in this town and people in
this town and community in this town.
And sometimes we get into a kind of
chorus of kind of gossip,
you know, and you just hear with the
different gossip are saying, you know, to 1
another about something or another that's rendered in
dialogue.
So, you... Or you have a question about
the plot and I ever reading the start
us off with. So shall we get into
that. Totally. I mean, so,
1 of the 1 of the things in
our in our most recent series,
1 of your kind of criticisms of couple
of the books was that we had, like,
just, like so little plot stretched from,
the sellout and the sympathize
was 1 of the reasons that we turned
to rip
for our final kind of chunk of the
last series.
As I was reading this, I was just
sitting there wondering like, I wonder if this
is like enough plot for jesse. And if
so, why? And if not,
why?
Well,
It is enough plot,
except I wouldn't necessarily consider it to be
a masterpiece of plotting.
It's micro plot. I mean, the plot of
the novel, I I guess, I mean, in
my opinion, even though Claudia is
the point of view character.
I would argue that Pickle is sort of
the protagonist
because she's the 1 who undergo
a change and a transformation. And Claudia is
more like an observer of this.
And so if you if you say that
Pickle
or Pico
Pickle?
I think I think Pico. I mister Austin.
Okay. If you say that Pickle
Yeah. If you say that
Is the protagonist, which has a tough argument
to, but I think I would make it
then you have
Is kicked out of her house.
She arrives
in the home of Claudia and Fried
and finds it somewhat welcoming.
However,
the wider community considers her ugly, and she
gets picked on for that and for her
poverty.
And then her father has sex with her
and gets her pregnant,
which in some ways breaks her sanity.
I think that's the plot.
Yeah. And I think
all,
you... It could be the plot of a
short story. You could tell the story of
In 20 pages. Or 30 pages, and it
could be pretty good. So what instead the
book does
is
spin out a context
in which we understand why and how this
has happened to her.
And there is a central thesis. I think
to that context,
there is
there is no shortage of people behaving very
badly, but just
when you're ready to judge those people for
behaving badly, you're offered an
explanation
that
wow, not justifying the bad behavior
explains it and explains it all in the
context essential of white supremacy.
And
so I think it is enough plot for
what the novel is trying to accomplish. Which
is to explore that. Is it enough plot
to be entertaining?
You know what? Almost,
I I do I do think the novel
has a few flaws of attention,
grabbing where 1 has to overcome a certain
friction Yeah. To get totally. Going.
And actually, like, if you wanna respond to
this, you can, but if not, I was
gonna give you a reading of, like, the
first moment where I was like, oh, I'm
in. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah And and also a
moment, I will say
when
I thought the book was gonna be something
else. Than what turned out to be. And
so I'll follow questions after this reading. But
this is
early on in the first big chapter.
And this is
Claudia first person
narration. And she's already told us that she
gets baby dolls
for Christmas, and that they're white baby dolls
with blue eyes and that she doesn't understand
why people like them, and she doesn't like
them. Then she goes off to talk about
how much she doesn't like having to take
a bath because she has to wash off
all the ink that she's drawn on herself.
And then she comes out of that sort
of, you know, digress about bathing with this.
I destroyed white baby dolls.
But the dis of dolls was not the
true horror. The truly horrifying thing
was the transfer of the same impulse to
little white girls.
The ind with which I could have axe
them was shaken only by my desire to
do so.
To discover what alluded me. The secret of
the magic they weave on others. What made
people look at them and say,
but not for me.
The eye slide of black women as they
approached them on the street in the possessive
gentleness of their touch as they handled them.
If I pinch them,
their eyes unlike the crazed gl of the
baby dolls eyes would fold in pain, and
their cry would not be the sound of
an ice box door, but a fascinating cry
of pain.
When I learned how repulsive this dis violence
was that it was repulsive because it was
interested, Machine flounder about for refuge.
The best hiding place was love.
Thus the conversion from pristine sad to fabricated
hatred.
To fraudulent love.
It was a small step to shirley temple.
I learned much later to worship her just
as I learned to the delight and cleanliness,
knowing even as I learned that the change
was a adjustment
without improvement.
I see, goddamn.
Yeah.
And, yeah, what was your... What made you
sit? What made your hair stand on in?
Like, what made you suddenly sit up and
be like, oh, I'm in.
Okay. So I'm mean, I was always intrigued
by the baby doll, but this notion of
the blues. Thigh and the blue eyes felt
a little bit familiar to me. Like, the
idea of, like, here's a black girl
who is oppressed by kind of white standards
of beauty,
I was like, I feel like I've heard
this before, probably by somebody who was influenced
by Toni Morrison... Correct.
But but
I think that that
writing
the the the the the poetic
narration of the transfer
of violent,
aggression towards
white girls to
a sort of
nonviolent ado admiration and how that wasn't really
that was changed without improvement because both of
them are stemming from the same force.
Mh.
Was just beautifully put that But I think
also at that moment, I was like, I
don't think I've ever read
a better depiction of the internal tonality of
a child's
resentment
and anger. I don't know that I've ever
read that
better. It just... It felt so believable. And
so real and also poetic and a little
bit abstract. The language is beautiful,
but it's not easy language to read, you
know,
and
it at this point, I still thought this
was gonna be a story about claudia,
you know, maybe like, making a white friend
and then doing something mean to her or,
you know, there was gonna somehow be a
kind of like, to kill a mocking bird,
like story or Claudia were these resentment and
these...
And then also her then misplaced like love
of shirley temple, like both of these things
were gonna somehow be transformed by some experience,
which is what you normally do,
in kind of a coming of age novel,
which is how this felt up to this
moment.
So I was hooked at this point but
it went somewhere I completely wasn't expecting. Yeah.
But I stayed with it.
But let me ask you, like,
Did you have the same expectation that I'm,
do you remember reading this passage? And it
were were you also... Were you seeing the
same trajectory that I was? Like, this is
gonna be a story about claudia growing in
some way? Yeah. This is... So this is
my... This is the next question I have
for you. Okay. Basically... Like that what I've
gotten the run rundown this question about the
narrator. Yeah. But... So I listened to it
a few times first.
And then I read the text.
And,
you know, I think the first time I
listened to it,
I might have been listening to it while
I was ahmed bicycle, and it might have
been, like, pretty darn windy. Yeah. And, like,
sort of, like, through my headphones, I was
like,
my It's not a it's not a casual
lesson. I think she's
breaking a toy.
Yeah. Like, like, just this... And I was
and I was like, And then when I
went back and listened to it again,
I was just... I was really struck by
the by the deliberate and pre
violence
of the words. Yeah. And this... Because the
weird thing you get in this moment is
there is no way this is claudia at
11.
Like, this is some other
removed
perspective
that is rep surprising
the experience
Of Claudia. Yeah. At 11.
But the vocabulary is it's a it's in
congress. No. And it's in congress. Voice of
a child Right? It's voice of an adult
in... But in a way, articulating, I think,
what a child never could.
Right. Exactly. And and and so...
Like this... So Claudia has now been vested
with, you know,
the first person point of view,
which
instantly, you know, we're like, this is our
main character. That's the default.
And now, like, you're sort of, like, like
you're saying,
and we've been given a starting point. Yeah.
Like, we have this initial incident of the
doll,
and it's like, Oh, like, whoa. I... Like,
I don't know what's gonna come next, but,
like,
I'm kinda worried about Claudia and what's gonna
happen. Yeah.
And then
we moved to Pe. Yep. For for the
arc for pretty much the the remaining arc
of the book.
It's it's like the folk... It's like the
camera pans across the room.
You know, and we're in the same house,
and and actually, it's the next... Seen because
that's when we get the milk.
And and the mother complaining about the milk,
and then I think after that is,
it this... So this is when
Pic experiences Puberty and the girls try to
help her with that, and they briefly get
in trouble with the mother until she realizes
what's going on, and then she's actually kinda
tender. But that's sort of the moment that
we sort of shift focus from Claudia to
Pi like this... Yeah. Was it's labor. It's
like Tempo.
Yeah.
Like like Tempo.
But, like... But what the reason why Tempo
works. And, like, and keeps the the the
the beach ball up in the air,
the whole time is that that movement continues.
Like, that's a that's that's a crucial fabric
of the of that movie. In that... And
I am not suggesting that the blues side
does not work. That's not what I'm saying
seeing. But differently because the Tam pop, you
have a central thread, and then it pay...
You you transfer to these little side stories
and then you come back to the central
thread. In this case, it's like the first
third of the book is Claudia.
And then the second 2 thirds of the
book are Pe
with occasionally Claudia
observations. Yeah. Of the moment. And there's this
interesting kind of sub plot of claudia and
fried to trying to grow flowers
to help
dead I read twice and didn't quite follow.
Yeah. It's the the final chapter is a
weird 1. Yeah. And...
But, like,
So, I mean, like, I think I I
think I have the same question for you
that maybe you have for me is is
does the shift in the narrator or the
attention work?
Yeah. What what's your take on that? I
think it does. And I think it works
because
for the reasons we're saying
Claudia
narration
always feels like this is the adult who
was Claudia talking to us.
Yep. Which is then, this is the adult
who was Claudia, talking about Claudia friend, Pic
or Claudia friend's father,
sometimes there's a kinda of chorus like voice
as well, but I think it works for
that reason. That's the continuity.
Whether is that the author, Tony Morrison wants
this specs. But even if this is a
fictitious adult who was Claudia,
there's still a continuity there, and it works
It works for me.
I think it could have worked better
with 1 major change.
Which is to take the first 2 pages
out of the book.
Oh 0,
okay. To now which?
Not not being not the author's no I
am talking about, here is the house. It
is green and white. It has a red
door. It is very pretty. Here is the
family. Mother father Dick and Jane, live in
the green and and that goes on for
about 2 pages. Then you get... I don't
have in front of me, but you'd probably
do. I have... I had any ebook book
version. Then you get the sentence that's like,
Nicole father got her pregnant.
You know, dah... And that's it's like, that
should be the first sentence because it... Because
it instead, it happened after all of that
Dick and Jane stuff it just felt like
felt like we were in like, James Joyce
or something. Like, you know, we're just getting
random bits and pieces, and that's a that
was a really, really important sentence that I
missed the first time. I also missed it
the first time around.
And it was because I was trying to
make sense of the the the the Cj
runs, see... You know, all that stuff. Yep.
And, yeah. And, like, it is... Because then
you have... You have it in front of
you. Yeah Yeah. I I've got... So it's
it's the second... It's it's what should be
the second sentence of the book, But even
then she's buried the lead a little bit,
mostly because, like,
I really don't want this book to open
with any other sentence than it opens with.
Because, like, I mean, like, the thing that
I'm so jazz about and this book and
surprise surprise
for anyone who's read Tony Morrison forever or
knows me is holy shit the poetry is
just unbelievable. It's it's really really good. Well,
can you give us those first 2 sentences
like the ones after they can jr Or
maybe, like, the first... Whatever 3, whatever makes
sense.
Quiet as it's kept,
there were no mari in the fall of
19 41.
We thought at the time that it was
because Bi was having her father's baby that
the Mari gold did not grow.
A little
examination and much less mel cali would have
proved to us that our seeds were not
the only ones that did not sprout.
Nobody's did.
Not even the gardens front the lake showed
showed Mari that year,
but so deeply concerned were we with the
health and safe, delivery of Baby, we could
think of nothing, but our own magic.
If we planted the seeds and said the
right words over them,
they would blossom,
and everything would be all alright.
Man,
like, I'm sorry a great day Morrison, but
If I was her editor in 19 69,
I would have said, this is how your
book starts. We're not doing on that author
note, we're not doing.
See Dick and Jane and run. That is...
That's where it starts. That's where it starts.
Because it's such a good beginning, but I
kind of, like, I was already a little
bit disoriented by the time we got there.
Yep. And and you're not alone. A lot
of the early criticism
speaks to they understand the gesture.
Of the inversion of the very white
4 square box
prose of
Sea
sea run, but almost all of them said
that it was basically AAA need
unnecessary in a That's given
Give given
quality of what comes next. Yeah. I don't
think you need. I think in another book.
Yeah. It... It's an interesting idea. I mean,
it's just like,
it feels very first time author to me
because it is an interesting idea, and it
has talent and it has execution
associated
does provide meaning, but I think that what
the first time author doesn't realize is what
you lose by doing it. And
and also maybe a little bit of, like,
oh, it's 19 70. We have to be
weird and experimental. And it's like you don't.
You should... And and also, like, The narrative
structure of the book is weird and experimental.
It's unlike the closest thing I could think
of was as I laid dying to and.
Which is Faulkner.
I have not read much,
James Baldwin, but I imagine the internal tonality
of the characters probably feels a lot like,
James Baldwin,
just internal tonality from what I have read
of, like, I've read excerpts of his novels
or I've had them read, rich
inc,
deep deep broad. Yeah. Like, intense. And nothing
off limits. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Nothing... There's
nothing we're not gonna talk about. You know,
We're gonna talk about our bodies. We're gonna
talk about our ugly feelings in addition to
our beautiful feelings, you know, we're gonna, you
all of... We're going everywhere. Yeah.
Yeah. I think... I mean, I agree with
you that it... Of that it works,
the the the near narrator shift. And I
think it's also really kind of guts and
amazing. Yeah. Like, like, you're saying...
Let's keep that experimental
nature. Let's do this, like, weird author authority
sleigh of hand where in the first
you know, third of the book. You're like,
oh, this is Claudia story. Yep. And then,
like, she has
she really does have the guts to be
like,
nope.
Yeah. And, like, doesn't apologize for it. It
doesn't walk away from it. And, like like,
it's so funny. I mean, debut novels are...
It's great. You get, you know, you get
an authors like,
biggest fears, but you also get their biggest,
talents kind of writ large. Yeah. And I
think you can... Yeah. I think that that's
really happening here. And and it, you know,
it was about halfway through? I was, like,
wow. There's great writing here, but has this
book lost its way. Is this is this
really something kind of like olive of Kit
ridge now, which is not to say bad,
but, like, are what we're really doing is
a collection of short stories and a portrait
of a community, which okay. That would be
interesting in and of itself. That's fine,
or is this a story
And then it's like, okay, you know, by
the time you get
really by the time you get to Charlie.
And imp his daughter, than the structure of
the book snaps into your brain.
And maybe even a little before that, too.
Because I mean, there is a moment where
that first scene where Charlie,
breed love and his wife are he's passed
out drunk and they're arguing about who's gonna
get the coal, and then we get this
long description of how they fight.
And then there's this illusion.
To what the scene that comes later, which
is that some white men
you know, caught him
having sex and then, you know, forced him
to keep doing it at gunpoint while they
watched.
That's it's interesting. That's there. And I was
like, oh, that's
Explanation for why he is, the way he
is. Yeah. That would really mess you up.
I could see that.
And I almost want... I almost wonder if
Tony Morrison knew
that the book was gonna contain that scene
and was gonna contain those flashbacks later or
not, like, or if
she sort of knew these characters
and
wasn't, you know, day to day writing, just
sort of wrote about them and then assembled
what she had written. Into something. But I
think it... I think, again, what we're both
winding up to is that it works because
almost everything you get in the book is
in some... Port of a very simple plot.
Yeah. And Tory. It we're basically
locating the simple plot in its ecosystem.
And everything is in the ecosystem.
Okay.
We've talked about this before.
But this is a way to sort of
make even clearer the point you just made.
Who is the most,
like,
outlandish
country musician,
in terms of like production and layering
and, like,
the richness and tracks and stuff like that,
who still adhere
to to
Dukes is maxim,
which is that a great country music has...
A great country music song has 1 thing
happening all the time.
Well, it's tough tough 1.
Because I don't... I mean in terms of
whom I'm a... I don't really know the
the youngest generation. So... But going back in
into, like, nineties country where you had all
that over... Option.
Yeah. Alan Jackson. Right. Yeah. Still...
He's got all that modern country stuff, but,
like, this is a song about a mercury.
This is a song
about a working man
who
is gonna leave out start drinking because it's
05:00 somewhere. This is a song about
Chad River. 1 for particular.
And how I never knew how much those
muddy waters meant to me, You know, but
I learned a lot about living and a
little about love.
You know, that... Yeah. I think Alan Jackson
is my answer. There probably other good answers
to that, but he, you know,
he has all the trapping of new, you
know, post postcards Brooks country, while still ad
adhering to, yes. The... A country song is
about 1 thing.
All the time.
Yeah.
That's what makes Duke is maxim so interesting.
Yes. Because It's about what... It's the addition
of all the time that you put on
I think this book is about 1 thing
all the time. Yeah. I you know? So
so,
congratulations, Alan Jackson, you are the Tony worst.
Of 19 98 country
I can't imagine a better compliment for a
country Hell, yeah. I know. We're certainly not
calling Toni Morrison, the Alan Jackson of no
literature. But I can do that. No.
No. I mean, alan Jackson's great but, like,
no. Tony Morrison morrison. Tony Morrison would be,
like,
I can't I can't even... I cannot even...
I don't think I can... I mean, like,
I I've got... You know, I haven't read
much of hers.
And
I am pissed. Yeah. That I have not
read more of hers after reading this book
because, like, Jesus fucking Christ. It's amazing.
I read beloved and twelfth grade, you know,
twelfth grade English, and
I think it's better than the blue eye.
I haven't read it since, so I don't
know. Beloved is like, the master work.
It it I... Certainly... I feel like it
has all the talent
Mh. And ability that we're seeing in the
Blue dye.
At a bigger
grander scale and with more precise control of
craft. Goddamn damn.
That's amazing.
That's... I... Yeah. The 1 what a thing
to say
coming after this book.
Which is which is grand and scale and
has an extremely high level of craft already.
It it does. I mean, you know, and
maybe because I've read beloved. I... I can...
I do feel like I can see a
few seams in this book. And and the
Dick and Jane bit was 1 of them.
There, you know, I I think you could
maybe argue that sometimes
the...
I don't... I mean, like,
there... I... Sometimes maybe they spiral a bit
the out of orbit bit. Sometimes we get
kind of, like, a pluto
as opposed to a neptune, You know, First
digress out. The horse.
Mh. Yeah. 2... It's a lot. Yeah. It's
it's a lot to only pay off a
small, like, not a punch, but a small
reveal that the Mag line is actually miss
Marie, and she is actually quite a lot
kinder than, like the... Sort of making her
out to be. Yep. But,
you know, the the heart of the first
section about the horrors is how
they are different from other horrors.
In their contempt for men. Yeah. And the
the passage about, they're very sensible contempt for
men, I think is the reason that that.
Is there. Yeah. And I think there's probably
a little too much scaffolding in leading up
to that reading.
But, yeah. I mean, you know, I mean,
we we could we could pick at this
book and find some seams, but Yeah. Yeah.
Why? Well, and it's also hard to remember
them because the things that probably,
I was thinking that maybe Sop ed church
was excessive, but no. I don't think so
because it's... He's very memorable.
And ultimately
he... Well,
it's interesting because I I gave you the
plot, but there is another part of the
plot I forget to say, which is
that
I say that
pickle
was broken
mentally, which I think is true. It's also
true that in her mind, she magically
pray and receives blue eyes
Mh. As well as a friend
who sees her blue eyes and sees her
as beautiful, who she can talk to.
Now,
I mean, Chris bag, do you think that
those 2 elements are...
Real
in the reality of this book.
No.
Right. So she... I mean, and she's gone
matt Right? Like, she's she's she's crazy.
She's lost her sense of reality. Her mind
is broken, But it is so ed Smith
who casts that the spell in her
imagination that turns her eyes, blue. And there's
also something really interesting in that moment because,
like, if you were to set out to
write
the most rep pregnant character you could think
of. You would arrive at something like Sop
Smith. And yet
He also
commits 1 of the books like pen acts
of kindness
as well in generosity.
Do you, like, He's essentially a child mole
who takes
who
sees...
Colon in a way that nobody else does
and gives her what she needs in that
moment.
Even even though it's a fraud and a
cone,
rate. And
and that's... I mean, that's what I think
1 of the
just arrest in successes of this novel is
that it
un
deals with these, like,
like, just absolutely terrible
subjects. Yeah.
And
everybody is a person. Yep. Yep. And everybody
is kinda given their moment
of
not not explanation or excuse, but everybody everybody
is given their story. And it is, yeah.
I mean, like, the true
that the the tragedy is pi us, but
that's just the tragedy that we're focusing on.
Yeah.
Yeah. It's at the... Everybody's
tragedy, and they all intersect. And then Pic
happens to be
1 of the weakest and least fortunate of
the characters and who has the has the
least help, you know,
of of anybody.
Yeah.
I've got a reading... So this is my,
like, craft hat moment. Okay.
And because what I thought, so
just
unreal
about this passage.
I mean, the ideas are great. The writing
is great The pacing is great. Everything about
it is pretty amazing.
The thing I want you to track as
best you can as I'm reading it
is
the
way that the part of speech
that outdoors
morph sent into over the course of these
paragraphs. Okay.
You know, not just... Well, not just part
of speech, but also, like,
right. When's it subject, When's a verb, Winston
objects, all of that stuff. I might grab
a notebook.
Yeah. To take that... I'm gonna quiz you
on it. I just... No. No. But III
just... III
wanna track that. Okay.
Outdoors we knew
was the real terror of life.
The threat of being outdoors surfaced frequently in
those days.
Every possibility of excess was curtail with it.
If somebody ate too much, he could end
up outdoors.
If somebody used too much coal, he could
end up outdoors.
People could gamble themselves outdoors, drink themselves outdoors.
Sometimes mothers put their sons outdoors, and when
that happened,
regardless of what the son had done, all
sympathy was with him.
He was outdoors, and his own flesh had
done it.
To be put outdoors by a landlord was
1 thing.
Unfortunate, but an aspect of life over which
you had no control since you could not
control your income.
But to be slack enough to put one's
self outdoors or heartless enough to put one's
own kin outdoors,
that was criminal.
There is a difference between being put out
and being put outdoors.
If you were put out, you go somewhere
else
If you were outdoors, there is no place
to go.
The distinction was subtle, but final.
Outdoors was the end of something, an irr
physical fact,
defining and complementing our meta physical condition.
Being a minority in both cast and class.
We moved about way on the hem of
life struggling to consolidate our weaknesses and hang
on, or to creep sing up into the
major folds of the garment.
Our peripheral existence, however was something we had
learned to deal with.
Probably because it was abstract.
But the concrete of being outdoors was another
matter, like the difference between the concept of
death and being
in fact,
dead.
Dead doesn't change
and outdoors
is here to stay.
Yeah.
This is still when I thought this was
a claudia coming of age story. Which it
is? By the way, Right. Yes. Yes. It
is. Claudia does have a coming of age
jerk, a, a sad 1.
So 1 thing I noticed there Right? So
if you take the word outdoors, which is
a compound word
Outdoors is generally a noun,
most of the time,
you can break it down into a preposition
and another noun.
Outdoors as in through the doors.
And that usage of put out is a
more explicit version of that. So when somebody
is put outdoors, they're put out through the
door
into the outdoors, but they are also converted
ag ti.
Yes. Young to somebody who is outdoors,
which is to today... It it's similar to
how we use the word homeless
today. It is it has become an title
state of being. If you've been put out,
okay. You were put out
but you are put out and you're sleeping
on your mother's couch now, or you're sleeping
and your friend's,
hen house.
And that's the distinction. And again,
she parallels that with
death dead. Death is a noun. Debt is
an adjective.
Outdoors is both a noun, but it becomes
an adjective. And it also comes to mean
without home, without family.
Without anything that matters in in this cruel
world
too. And
yeah. I mean, you know... It's the mechanics
of poetry.
Oh, yeah. Totally In the midst of a
novel.
And it's... Yeah. She... Yeah. She's manipulating. It
it shows up as a... It it shows
up early as a subject.
Yeah. And then it shows up as an
object. Yep. And then it is... As you
said, it's an adjective.
Even the verbs that lead to it in
some cases are transit and some cases transit.
And it's just like it's it... And then
it just sort of, like spirals up into
poetic philosophy. Yeah. There's a lot of poetic
philosophy andy it fucking works. Yeah. Like, you're
still carried along
on the, like rhythm and the beauty of
the pros.
And it I just I think... Well, and
I'll say, like, another thing. It's also anthropology.
Right? She's... It's it's like she's
She's doing what a cultural ant pathologist would
do in this community and saying, there's this
category that exists for this people. It's a
category that might be familiar to you, but
these people use this particular terminology for it
outdoors. That's different from being put out.
The there's a kind of, like margaret need
quality to it as well.
And I I think I think that's why
the book is so so successful.
Because, like, you pointed out that it... Like,
it does this odd shift in focus.
And we both are sort of, like, yeah,
It it works.
And I think 1 of the reasons why
it works is, like, this voice has so
much Goddamn authority. Yeah.
And I think it so she's managing to
achieve that authority
while
she is telling the story.
It's like it's like feeding kids beats by
containing it in chocolate cake.
You know? Yeah like, Yeah. It really does.
She does manage to slip in stuff that
would normally be un imp, like philosophy into
a novel.
And turns it into, like, for me, it
was just this like, amazing roller coaster High
act of
of writing. Well, I think, you know, it's
interesting to use the word authority because to
me, the chocolate cake in your metaphor would
be the delicious ness of the pros, which
exists.
And then I... But I also think there's
a quality to which the writer is like
a kind of somewhat strict but loving mom
putting the chocolate cake in front of the
kid and being like, eat.
At, like, it's that authority, which is,
you know, disagree with Toni Morrison
view of the world at your own risk.
Yeah. You know? And it's interesting. I was
listening to an interview she did on fresh
air with Terry Gross. And there's this moment
where Terry questions are about something.
And Tony Morrison
I think takes it as a little bit
of a challenge. And kind of flips it
back on her in a way that is
formidable. And you hear Terry gross kind of
catch yourself. And then I would say to
her credit,
clarify her question in a way that makes
more sense, Toni Morrison and they go to
have kind of a productive discussion. But there
is a moment
there, where it's sort of, like, are you
questioning,
like,
my
my understanding of this world and you better
not?
And,
because, you know, she's she's from it and
she's lived it. And Yeah. You know, it...
It's interesting. She has like... I think there's
there's a there's a quality of authority there
that can even be a little bit intimidating.
Although having listened to a few interviews with
Toni Morrison,
somebody could say to her. I don't think
the world is quite this way. I think
it's this way, and she'll consider it. But
Yeah. That's not what she's doing in this
novel. She is not saying, oh, maybe my
childhood was more like this or maybe these
people were she's like, this is what the
world was. Yeah. This and you really you
really believe it. And I think it's because
of this amazing
combination of
writing chops,
earned confidence.
And I think... I mean, also she started
late. Yeah. I mean, this comes at... Like,
she wrote this when she was 39. Yeah.
And, like, you know,
what's not late. That's just... That's a bit
early. That's just right. That's right.
Even a bit early, I would say. I
think I think a first time novel should
really be in his mid late forties or
her mid late forties. Exactly or their mid
to late for. I mean perhaps even early
fifties.
Sharon didn't
publish until she was in her early forties.
I mean, if you wanna write a novel
that is April profession that is tolerant of
age. Yes. Right Yeah. Say unlike being a
professional baseball player.
True.
We gotta get it we gotta... That's good.
Nice work. Yeah.
Ding,
drink everybody.
Yeah. Exactly. Unless... We brought up baseball. Unless
you develop a a knuckle curve or a
knuckle ball like, midway through your career? Like,
who's the guy from the Met who who,
like, developed a knuckle ball at each 38
and then had another, like, won the Sci
young award and had another sure was Tony
Morrison.
Tony Morrison and picture for the
For mad.
Do you wanna do your final reading though?
Sure. Yeah. Why not. Well, wait let let's
leave with her words. Yep. Each night without
fail,
she prayed for blue eyes.
Fe
for a year she had prayed.
Although somewhat discouraged, she was not without hope,
to have something as wonderful as that happen
would take a long, long time.
Thrown in this way into the binding conviction
that only a miracle could relieve her. She
would never know her beauty.
She would see only what there was to
see.
The eyes of other people.
She walks down Garden Avenue to a small
grocery store which sells penny candy.
3 pennies are in her shoe. Slipping back
and forth between the sock and the inner
soul. With each step, she feels the painful
press of the coins against her foot.
A suite, in durable,
even cherished
irritation, full of promise and delicate security.
There is plenty of time to consider what
to buy.
Now, however,
she moves down an avenue gently buffet by
the familiar and their for loved images, the
dan alliance at the base of the telephone
pole.
Why she wonders to people call them weeds.
She thought they were pretty,
but grown up say, miss Dun keeps her
yards so nice, not a dan lion anywhere.
Hun women in black Be go into the
fields with baskets to pull them up,
but they do not want the yellow heads,
only the jagged leaves.
They make Dan lion soup,
dan line wine.
Nobody loves the head of a dan line,
maybe because there are so many
strong
and soon.
There was the sidewalk crack shaped like a
y and the other 1 that lifted the
concrete up from the dirt floor.
Frequently, her s step had made her trip
over that 1.
Skate would go well over the sidewalk. Old
as it was and smooth.
It made the wheels gl glide evenly with
a mild were.
The newly paved locks were bumpy and uncomfortable.
And the sound of skate wheels on new
walks was grating.
These and other ina intimate things she saw
inexperienced. They were real to her. She knew
them.
They were the codes and touchstone touchdown of
the world capable of translation and possession.
She owned the crack that made her stumble.
She owned the clumps of Dan alliance whose
heads last fall, she had blown away, whose
yellow heads this fall she peered into.
And owning them made her part of the
world and the world a part of her.
And she goes and buys the candy. Yeah.
Yeah. It when experiences of of of racist
moment of of
of her world. Right?
Like, that see that moment of the world
that she was a part of the world
and the world was part of her.
Moves directly into a scene where she is
negated and unseen. Yeah.
It's
It's funny because I can remember... I also
listened to this book and I can remember
exactly where I was when I read this
passage, and it's interesting because I was having
a similar experience of being in a place
of particular, where there were a number of
things
that would catch the eye
like cracks in the sidewalk or. In this
particular case, the way the trees would he
up crack in the sidewalk, and in the
pavement,
and also, you know, my neighborhood has just
a lot of
landscaping,
lot of plants, a lot of
both natural and unnatural, and so seeing all
the, you know, like, the honey suck or
the Ivy poking through the fence.
Yeah. I mean, you know, I I kind
of lost Us. You gave me an assignment,
but I kind of just, like, lost track
of it
in my immersion you're reading. Right now, other
than to say,
I think
there's
Again, it's the country song always doing 1
thing. And you already said it that she
belongs the world and the world belongs to
her. These are very, very specific details that
you any writer could observe and put into
a book.
But
They feel very real. They feel very tactile.
They're described poetic
they're described vividly
thought companies
essential description. So not only do we see
what the Dan alliance look like. We also
wonder why their weeds.
We also imagine the yellow and the green.
We think about the heads versus the the
leaves and what people use various parts for.
So the specificity of all that,
But then and also... You know, it's kinda
feels like choice, just like, wandering down the
street, observing things, having thoughts. There's a stream
of consciousness quality too that feels very, very.
Realistic. And then, yes, as you say, it's
all bound together
in a kind of completeness in which she
is part of the world and she the
world and the world owns her.
Yeah. And then it doesn't.
And right. Yeah. Exactly. It's like, so
I'm just... I'm amazed at how she pulls
all of this stuff off.
In a novel that... Yeah. I have to
I have to work for it. Like, I
can't, you know, I can't... This isn't pulling
a expanse novel off the shelf. And Yep.
You know, just sinking into the es.
Like, yeah, this is this is high
literature,
but it doesn't read like high literature there
moments to me that remind me of
dine back of of mice and men, you
know, specifically or or the pearl.
Which are also
interestingly, sometimes taught in schools and sometimes assigned
to children even though they're about very adult
things. Well, that sets up my final question
for you, which is, is this a young
adult novel?
Okay. I'm gonna I'm gonna sort of
go off of something you said earlier about
context.
If
your parents
have been
intensely
and generously honest with you
through your
childhood and early adolescence,
yes.
If
the if not, if you have been... If
this stuff has been hidden from you, if
if real conversations about sex and race and
everything like that have been kept from you.
This is a novel that is going to
be
misinterpreted
by that audience, and that's what scares me.
For kids that are prepared effectively for this,
and given the correct context and talked about,
you know, if you, like, you would have
to work your way up to it. But,
yeah,
I
think
I think this is an adult novel that
can be taught at the young adult level
if
you
if you have
kids that have been prepared adequately.
And I minnesota that's my long answer of
saying,
I think no. There's the world part and
there's also the vocabulary. Right? Yeah. That Yeah.
It's also a challenging... I mean, it's a
travel novel for me, and I am... Totally.
1 of, I would say,
you know, I'm pretty good at reading English
language novels. Oh, But That's not to say.
I could see teaching this in twelfth grade,
ap English with kids who were avid
enthusiastic
readers well paced.
You know, And I I would also... I
mean,
I take your point about
adults preparing. I could be sympathetic to a
parent who says, I know that my kid
need to learn about racism and inc
and
domestic abuse.
But I don't want that to happen at
school away from me. I would like some
control over that. I think if I were
a teacher offering this novel,
to a high school student. I don't think
I would offer to a middle school student.
I would maybe offer it to a high
school student. I think I would also off...
I would also offer another alternative novel and
let The kids
choose and let the parents know about that
choice and have some say in it. As
well, I remember in twelfth... Or eleventh grade,
we had the choice of either reading the
awakening
or Billy Bud
by Mel. And for the most part,
all the interesting. Yeah. And neither of them
have anything
particular.
Well,
it weakening does have some, like, sexual stuff.
Right? Is like, this is a curriculum that
is simply pressed for time. That was the
that was the structure of that choice. I
think I think it were they're both similar
laying I think probably the awakening was the
teacher's first choice and Billy Bud was probably
the, like, if we have any parents out
there who are socially conservative.
What's another good work of literature that's about
the same length?
Because it's good. Billy bud is good. Oh,
yeah. I read the awakening and I would
I would like to say that that was
the pro feminist in me, and I think
that's partially true, but I also think that
I was aware that displaying
that
most of the boys chose to read Billy
Bud, and I think I was aware that
choosing to read the more feminist novel would
be kind of sexy to a certain type
of high school girl too. So
Know. So
so, young straight
men out there,
feminism can be sexy.
That's your Psa.
Yeah. I think that's a great place to
wrap up our discussion.
Right. Well, let's be... I was gonna have...
I I was... I really wanted to dive
into the... A polarity of, like, a socially
conservative family pointing most of their boys in
the direction of Billy Buds,
which I like, and, like, Mel would be
happy about that. Yeah. It's like a little
home erratic. Right? But not exclusive.
That exactly.
Well, I mean, Mel. Don't know it. But,
like, it's not gonna be it's not explicit,
But oh, yeah. I mean, it's it's it's
hot. Yeah.
Alright. Well, let's go into some trivia. I
don't remember, I just remember Billy bud is
impressed, and then he's falsely accused of something
that was my recollection. But, Yeah. I mean,
and every sentence of mel reads like poetry.
I I think he's 1 of our most
poetic
novel ever. I even once I tricked a
poet, a real poet 1 time by rewriting.
Something from white jacket, which is 1 of
his lesser novels, and I put it in
verse.
And I put it next to, like, I
don't know, like a seam poem, and I
was like, you know,
let's talk about these 2 poems, and nobody
picked up that that Mel was not... You
know, I just reform it. That's great. You
know, That's wonderful. That we go. Yeah. Was
kinda of... It was kind of a dirty
trick, But
I think you go first this time for
sure Yeah. Okay. Alright.
So in 19 98,
Oprah Winfrey discovers beloved. Mh Mh. And is
desperate to get in contact with Tony morrison.
Okay.
And cannot because Tony Morrison number is not
in the phone book.
I have a follow up detail at the
end of this question. So not gonna make
you ask that. But Well, I won't say,
like, Oprah winfrey probably has resources beyond the
phone book for this sort of thing. But
and Which of the following resources
did she tap
to in fact, get in contact Okay. With
Tony Morris. Okay. Hey.
The town library.
B,
the local fire department
or c,
The faculty of Morrison Alma Armada, Howard University,
or d Be wolf Sc.
Well,
interestingly, my question for you also deals with
Howard University. I will say that the Howard
Universe city network is quite strong.
Yeah. Absolutely.
Yeah. Because it's not a very large school.
I mean, you know, like, I know some
people
who are... Yeah. So for example, like Ton
Coat, like as part of that network. And,
like that would be it. That would be
a legit way to reach out to Ton
coast. Right.
If you happen to know somebody
who is in their late forties who also
went to Howard. They probably know each other.
That said, I really want to be the
town library. So I'm gonna go with the
town library.
It was the local fire department.
You to get it. I know. You were
better.
And the message,
that Oprah
had the fire department,
drive out to Tony Morrison house and deliver
was
Tell Tony Oprah called.
And with a number I hope? Yes. With
a number and apparently a shocked toni morrison
returned to the call that very evening.
So what is power?
Oprah is powell. Oh well, ladies in gentlemen.
Been no doubt that Oprah is for. Oh,
yeah. What town was this? Was this Lorraine?
Oh, yeah it's not in the goddamn story.
I have everything. That was 1 of my
questions. I was like,
where was this? Yeah. I think
the originating newspaper is a Pittsburgh
newspaper. Okay. And so I think it is
somewhere in
Western Pennsylvania. Yep. But I'm... I I don't
have more details. Than that. Interesting. Okay. Okay.
That's great. That's great. I would say, like,
it is the dream of every novel
If I were ever novel, I certainly would
wanna, like, live my fifties and sixties and
seventies in a town where nobody could find
me. But the fire department knew where I
lived, and the local librarian if, you know,
would also knew where I then could deliver
a message. And and
that's that's a great novel life right there.
Yeah So, my question for you
Tony Morrison
went to Howard University in the late forties
early fifties.
And she says that even in college, and
I it wasn't until she went to Howard
that she observed color.
As distinguished from racism. I mean, it's dimension
of racism, but we're not talking about anti
black racism.
We're talking about
within the black community,
the idea that lighter skin is better than
darker skin.
And she first observed that at Howard. And
she said that in her experience, in her
life, in 19 49 and 50,
it was worse in 1 academic department in
better in another in which she took classes.
Oh, my goodness. So a
what. Wait. Wait. The the,
like, the the experience of color is Okay.
It was worse not not as in... It
was in flip flop. It was in reversed
directions in different department. No It was wasn't
reversed directions. Okay. And Okay. I think I,
you know, I think that color, as I
understand it,
there is always the presumed hierarchy of
lighter skin being better, but there's also a
often a backlash against that as we saw
with the character Marlene in this book where
people are jealous and therefore, sometimes can be
mean of somebody who's light skinned too. But
generally, the the hierarchy is assumed to dominate.
So it's... Yeah. So these symptoms of color
were worse in 1 department and better in
another department. Right. Right. Okay. So got it.
A was it that it was worse
in the history department and better
in the English department.
B was it worse in the English department
and better in the drama department
or c was it worse in the drama
department and better in the history department.
I like this little triple kit planet system
that you've drawn with users. The 3 of
our majors.
Yeah.
God.
Okay.
And you might be able to puzzle... Mean
I actually feel like this is 1 you
might be able to puzzle out too. Like,
it's not 1 that you would simply have
to have known
anecdote. I think there are clues.
I strongly believe
that it will
be
I can like,
I could hear the problems of my own
reasoning.
Because I very often reason myself out of
the
correct answer, but I'm not gonna do the
thing where then I decide to dive the
other way because this forward has always hit
the ball in that direction... Yeah, We're not
gonna do that. I think that no matter
what the correct answer
the worst symptoms are either gonna be English
or drama.
And so I am going to go with
the answer
where the color was worst in the drama
department, which I believe was
version c. Worse in the drama department better
in the history... The history department. Yes.
Was b racing in English department and better
in the drama department. Oh, according that was
to Tony Morrison.
In 19 49,
Howard University is a wonderful place. Today,
probably was then to
But, yes, According Tony Morrison worse in the
English department better in the drama of the
department. So I do get, like, half a
ding. Yeah. Because I did correctly articulate that
my majors are the worst majors. Yeah. You
get half ding, but a whole buzz.
Yeah.
I can't wait. That sounds like fun. I
mean, you know, I think part of, if
you've ever noticed that I have occasionally, I
might slag academic English departments on the show
from time to time. You might... That might
be 1 clue. Yeah. That was 1III
thought
I just couldn't... I I knew that was
possibility,
but given the time
and the sort of, like,
generally
prevailing
winds
of drama apartments
that, like, it is pretty much better to
look like the prevailing attractive thing
that that's what that was my reasoning in
there. But I 100 percent wanted to take
B
because when I asked my old boss at
Putnam, Emily Jones,
what the English department at Cat Gable in
Portland was like?
She said, without missing a beat,
oh, they're like a herd of Llama.
And I was like, what?
That she was like, if they're
alone, they are... If they are alone and
enclosed, they are largely harmless
if they are together and out in the
open
they will destroy the countryside. No.
Well, my observation is even though I
I love
Again, and have had wonderful experiences with English
professors alone, and I love the teaching of
English, and I even like the workshop,
I find that there's a lot of insecurity
in English departments and it kinda circles back
to that David Letterman, that quality of, like,
we must be the 1 with the right
attitude about this book. Yep. And according to
Tony Morrison, and I buy this,
it all that mattered was... Could you perform
You know. Yeah. And I do think that
theater has a kind of objectivity to it
because you know when a show works and
you know when it doesn't. If you
And, you know, sure, like, you might prefer
someone's performance more than I do, but you
can generally tell if the show works if
the audience likes it. And so her claim
was that in the English department, she sent
color and in the drama department, she said
all that mattered was, you know, could you
perform? And part of the reason I thought
you might guess it is because you noted
she's a good reader because she performs her
own audiobook too.
And I owe that is so. So I
thought that
my sense is she's partly, she's a good
reader because
reading a book is a kind of dramatic
act she has background in that.
Chris Bag. Will you read the blue eye
again?
Yeah. Yeah. I will. I am
I am gonna read this again. I thought
it was amazing.
I'll say that,
I probably won't because I feel like I
got it. I think I probably will read
Song Solomon
Yeah, which I have not read. Yeah. I'm
gonna... And and I gonna probably redo 01:11
more again. Yeah. But I kinda feel like,
you know what? I I think I ingested
this. I think I got it. And I
actually think that even though it's amazing, I
don't think it's our best work. And so
I will certainly read... I've never read song
of Solomon, and it's been over 20 years
since I've read beloved. So I think both
of those are due due to tomorrow. When
you when you get around to those hitting
your bedside tape. Bowl, let me know, and
let's, like c read them, and then they
will probably come back as episodes
now. Had a podcast where we read them
and talked about them.
We are gonna be reading Margaret at woods.
The hand tale, the first half, roughly,
I wanna say they're something like 48 chapters,
so about 25 chapters. Just do the math,
count chapters divide by 2. You're smart.
Another band book.
Oh, wait. I'll wait for you to finish
this.
From Brian. And
until then, you should know that upper middle
brow is a small point production. Chris Bag
and Jesse Dukes are the upstairs, ladies of
the night. Music by Ben Page music by
Ben Paycheck and Jesse Dukes,
design and website by Chris Bag. You can
learn more about us and find our
you can learn more about. You can learn
more about us and find our listener survey
at upper middle brow dot com. Please and
please review us in your podcast app, so
other people can find the show and so
I can learn how to talk.
Lisa.
I can barely talk.
That was that was like Miles Davis right
there. It's like play a bad note keep
playing it.
And unfortunately,
your mouth is not Miles Davis as Trumpet
at the moment,
You, after have to rely on my wits.
Alright. Chris Bag. Let's hear that
Bar tone read the reminder. Here it comes.
Ladies and gentlemen, all the way from Bend
Oregon.
Christopher Night bag.
As a reminder, Jesse and I are both
writers and others and can hear cancer.
As a reminder, Jesse and I are both
writers and editors and can help you with
your writing podcasting or editing project. You can
see some of our portfolios and learn more
at our respective and un creatively named websites
chris bag dot com and
jesse duke dot com. Thank you so much,
Jesse, and back to you.
See you on the podcast next time, everybody.
Have a lovely
night or day, wherever we may be out
there in pod world.