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And please review us in your podcast app,

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so other people can find the show and

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so I can learn how to talk. Lisa.

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I can barely talk.

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I love that the full circle reading of

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this is that the book of Job is

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a temporary and

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come. This is why that calling it the

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backpack trip of job is actually an exaggeration

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because I. Although I guess Boat, Job in

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the end does get healed. Right? God's. Like,

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3.

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Yes. And he... Well, he makes it back

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quite well,

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it's weird.

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Because it's the bible. Right. So he gets

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back twice of everything.

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Mh.

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But

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he doesn't get back the 10 children he

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had. Yeah. He gets 20 new children, Right.

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Which you're like,

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It's because children

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don't matter in and of themselves, but only

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as possessions of adults. Which actually is a

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nice transition into the novel that we're gonna

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talk about. Okay. Yeah. That's not bad. That's

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not bad. We always...

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You know, 1 thing I will say about

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us is that

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we always land to the plane. Well, I

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think we should talk about the blue eye.

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Yeah. I think we already are, but in

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a way that's in a way, we're certainly

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talking about the kind of internalized

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judgments and hi of a small community, which

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is 1 of the themes of The

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book 19 70,

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Tony Morrison, the great Tony Morrison debut novel,

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kind of a novel isabella, it's in it's

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an awkward length. Right? Like, if you were

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picking it up on in a paper pack,

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it'd probably be what, like a hundred 30

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pages or something like that. Mine is my

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mine is is 207 page. Okay. Short novel

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And, yeah. Short novel. Yeah. Long,

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it is awkward. You know.

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But there's nothing particularly like,

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tight... Like, there's nothing weird about the type

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set in this edition. You know, it seems

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like a normal sized book. Yeah.

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But

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Boy, what a debut?

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Yep. Yep. And also, this is the beginning

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of our banned book series. This book is

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often challenged

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in high school,

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C,

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it was challenged in Brow County, Florida, just

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last year. It was challenged in Rocky

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River City Schools Ohio just last year. It

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was challenged in

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Wen,

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Missouri and also

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in

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Bedford County, Virginia county. I'm very familiar with

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a beautiful place. Unless you feel judgmental about

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these places. The only reason we know about

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these challenges are somebody's fighting back.

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So

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the people in these places are not missus...

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Are not all terrible people.

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And

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you know, the the the the issue with

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book bands, we can talk about another time.

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I certainly think there is a role for

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parents who are concerned about what their children

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are reading in school, and I think parents

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have the right to express that. But what

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we've been seeing lately is more kind of

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like an ass script social movement.

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Yeah. That

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has a more

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nefarious

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so strategy

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and means and purpose.

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And, you know, but I'm happy to have

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a discussion about whether

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I think

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I would have second thoughts about my kid

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reading the blues eye at various ages,

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maybe by eleventh or twelfth grade.

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I would be comfortable with that with some

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contextual commercialization. I would probably not be comfortable

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with that in eighth or ninth grade. Even

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though maybe I'm... Maybe I'm wrong.

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About that. But there... There's some heavy stuff

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in the book. Okay.

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And and

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stuff that I'd wanna make sure

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kids

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can...

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Can,

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not conceptualize,

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contextualize.

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Properly

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before,

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I expose them to it. But shall we

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do a a recap? Yeah. So we

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open the action in the early 19 forties

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in Lorraine, Ohio.

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Our

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major characters are Claudia, who's is kind of

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our a narrator, although sometimes the narrator and

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sort of, like,

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drifts away from the first person of Claudia,

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to other narrator that couldn't possibly be Claudia.

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Right? And and generally when that happens, we're

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now in third person. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The

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only first person narrator with maybe...

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I can't think of any exceptions is is

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Claudia. With the exception of sop head churches

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letters to God. Yeah. Epi to God. Right.

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We meet her sister Frida, who is older

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and helps us

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experience claudia like Naive. Yep. Which is why

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there. And then Pe Breed love, a girl

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who is a little older than Claudia who

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moves in with them.

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He's We watch. We get to see for

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several chapters, Claudia Freedom and Pe,

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struggle with the normal t prevail of childhood.

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So, like, dealing with shitty peers and cruelty

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and os hospitalization,

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abuse and kindness from their parents,

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and then going through puberty and sexual maturity.

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Along the way,

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all of the characters

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begin to

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see and experience how unfair the world can

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be.

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And then, you know, and this is maybe

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a third of the way through,

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rather than

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following

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Claudia through a kind of coming of aged

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tale, which is kind of how it feels

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like, we're being set up. Like, we feel.

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At least I felt like, okay, Claudia is

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gonna go through something. She's gonna have some

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experience that's gonna change her in. That does

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happen. But what actually starts happening is

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kind of like narrative

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concentric circles

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around Pickle breed loaf. Yeah. And we get

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to know more about her circumstances.

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There are flashbacks. We see her family life

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back when she lived with her parents before

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they they had a recent, like, fight and

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fire,

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which is the occasion of her moving in

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with Claudia and Fried.

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But prior to that, they were living together,

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and they had a very,

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I would say

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dysfunctional,

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occasionally loving,

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often abusive

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relationship. The parents did.

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Then we kind of even widen our concentric

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circles and learn about some other people in

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the community.

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And then we also 1 of the sort

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of themes,

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we start learning more and more about Pe

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his father, Charlie, and we see him as

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a child.

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We see him at... A young teenager

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having a kind of sexual coming of age

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experience that is interrupted horrific by a couple

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of white men with a gun who essentially

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force him to have a sexual experience with

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a woman

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while they watch.

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And then we also watch

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him run away from home and try to

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find his biological father, but she succeeds in

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doing, but to horrible affect

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his... He he can't even really communicate to

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his father, who he is and why he's

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there, and his father is quite mean, although

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perhaps in some ways, he would have been

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nicer. If he understood who this boy was,

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but but he doesn't.

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And then that sort of snaps us back

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to the present in where we have a

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scene in which,

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Charlie, you know, now a man in his

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forties or fifties

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has sex with Pic

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who's at that time, probably 12 or 13

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or something like that.

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Yeah. And in the final chapter, kind of,

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wraps everything up. We learn what happens to

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pick as a result of the pregnancy and

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how the other characters in the novel

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makes sense of it all.

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And

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and they all look happily ever after.

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Yeah.

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No.

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They don't. It ends on a down.

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It not a happy ending. Although Claudia and

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Free survive. Claudia does feel something like a

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stand in for Toni Morrison perhaps

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in some in some ways. Yeah. There's a

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lot of there's a lot of arthur

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touches. And ge did great

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great character, great device. Yeah Like. And Morrison,

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whether or not, Claudia is an author insert

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or not, they exist. You can do them

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well. You can do them badly.

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Morrison, like, like, almost everything in this book,

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does it really, really well? Oh, and there's

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another voice you get,

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that's not Claudia first person that's often the

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sort of omni omniscient

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narrator

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who's speaking almost soc physiological

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about the community.

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Yep. And, you know, whether that's sort of

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a the voice of the memoir,

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author, or it it does appear to be...

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Tony Morrison

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observation in the voice of a kind of

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omniscient narrator about how

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I mean, Toni Morrison was from Lora, Ohio

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at around this time. And so she's... There's

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a lot of time in Inc... Spent just

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describing life in this town and people in

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this town and community in this town.

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And sometimes we get into a kind of

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chorus of kind of gossip,

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you know, and you just hear with the

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different gossip are saying, you know, to 1

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another about something or another that's rendered in

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dialogue.

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So, you... Or you have a question about

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the plot and I ever reading the start

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us off with. So shall we get into

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that. Totally. I mean, so,

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1 of the 1 of the things in

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our in our most recent series,

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1 of your kind of criticisms of couple

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of the books was that we had, like,

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just, like so little plot stretched from,

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the sellout and the sympathize

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was 1 of the reasons that we turned

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to rip

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for our final kind of chunk of the

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last series.

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As I was reading this, I was just

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sitting there wondering like, I wonder if this

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is like enough plot for jesse. And if

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so, why? And if not,

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why?

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Well,

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It is enough plot,

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except I wouldn't necessarily consider it to be

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a masterpiece of plotting.

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It's micro plot. I mean, the plot of

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the novel, I I guess, I mean, in

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my opinion, even though Claudia is

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the point of view character.

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I would argue that Pickle is sort of

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the protagonist

277
00:10:50,527 --> 00:10:52,779
because she's the 1 who undergo

278
00:10:53,649 --> 00:10:56,605
a change and a transformation. And Claudia is

279
00:10:56,605 --> 00:10:58,682
more like an observer of this.

280
00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:01,894
And so if you if you say that

281
00:11:01,975 --> 00:11:02,475
Pickle

282
00:11:02,855 --> 00:11:03,595
or Pico

283
00:11:03,975 --> 00:11:04,375
Pickle?

284
00:11:04,934 --> 00:11:06,855
I think I think Pico. I mister Austin.

285
00:11:07,095 --> 00:11:08,475
Okay. If you say that Pickle

286
00:11:08,948 --> 00:11:09,904
Yeah. If you say that

287
00:11:10,701 --> 00:11:13,569
Is the protagonist, which has a tough argument

288
00:11:13,569 --> 00:11:14,923
to, but I think I would make it

289
00:11:14,923 --> 00:11:15,741
then you have

290
00:11:16,436 --> 00:11:17,631
Is kicked out of her house.

291
00:11:18,364 --> 00:11:19,184
She arrives

292
00:11:20,042 --> 00:11:22,779
in the home of Claudia and Fried

293
00:11:23,238 --> 00:11:25,155
and finds it somewhat welcoming.

294
00:11:26,526 --> 00:11:27,026
However,

295
00:11:27,801 --> 00:11:30,830
the wider community considers her ugly, and she

296
00:11:30,830 --> 00:11:32,743
gets picked on for that and for her

297
00:11:32,743 --> 00:11:33,243
poverty.

298
00:11:33,953 --> 00:11:35,780
And then her father has sex with her

299
00:11:35,780 --> 00:11:36,734
and gets her pregnant,

300
00:11:37,370 --> 00:11:39,833
which in some ways breaks her sanity.

301
00:11:41,264 --> 00:11:42,297
I think that's the plot.

302
00:11:43,028 --> 00:11:44,562
Yeah. And I think

303
00:11:45,336 --> 00:11:45,836
all,

304
00:11:46,291 --> 00:11:47,565
you... It could be the plot of a

305
00:11:47,565 --> 00:11:49,316
short story. You could tell the story of

306
00:11:49,794 --> 00:11:52,190
In 20 pages. Or 30 pages, and it

307
00:11:52,190 --> 00:11:54,648
could be pretty good. So what instead the

308
00:11:54,648 --> 00:11:55,544
book does

309
00:11:56,234 --> 00:11:56,734
is

310
00:11:57,185 --> 00:11:59,366
spin out a context

311
00:12:00,694 --> 00:12:03,713
in which we understand why and how this

312
00:12:03,713 --> 00:12:04,746
has happened to her.

313
00:12:06,112 --> 00:12:08,099
And there is a central thesis. I think

314
00:12:08,099 --> 00:12:08,973
to that context,

315
00:12:09,688 --> 00:12:10,744
there is

316
00:12:11,674 --> 00:12:14,079
there is no shortage of people behaving very

317
00:12:14,079 --> 00:12:15,379
badly, but just

318
00:12:15,839 --> 00:12:17,759
when you're ready to judge those people for

319
00:12:17,759 --> 00:12:19,699
behaving badly, you're offered an

320
00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:20,500
explanation

321
00:12:21,199 --> 00:12:21,699
that

322
00:12:22,894 --> 00:12:25,394
wow, not justifying the bad behavior

323
00:12:26,575 --> 00:12:29,615
explains it and explains it all in the

324
00:12:29,615 --> 00:12:31,627
context essential of white supremacy.

325
00:12:32,983 --> 00:12:33,483
And

326
00:12:34,739 --> 00:12:36,414
so I think it is enough plot for

327
00:12:36,414 --> 00:12:38,582
what the novel is trying to accomplish. Which

328
00:12:38,582 --> 00:12:40,490
is to explore that. Is it enough plot

329
00:12:40,490 --> 00:12:41,285
to be entertaining?

330
00:12:43,352 --> 00:12:44,544
You know what? Almost,

331
00:12:45,419 --> 00:12:47,009
I I do I do think the novel

332
00:12:47,009 --> 00:12:49,179
has a few flaws of attention,

333
00:12:50,620 --> 00:12:53,040
grabbing where 1 has to overcome a certain

334
00:12:53,259 --> 00:12:56,139
friction Yeah. To get totally. Going.

335
00:12:57,188 --> 00:12:59,890
And actually, like, if you wanna respond to

336
00:12:59,890 --> 00:13:02,194
this, you can, but if not, I was

337
00:13:02,194 --> 00:13:03,679
gonna give you a reading of, like, the

338
00:13:03,799 --> 00:13:06,351
first moment where I was like, oh, I'm

339
00:13:06,351 --> 00:13:08,984
in. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah And and also a

340
00:13:08,984 --> 00:13:10,201
moment, I will say

341
00:13:10,818 --> 00:13:11,318
when

342
00:13:11,695 --> 00:13:13,450
I thought the book was gonna be something

343
00:13:13,450 --> 00:13:15,453
else. Than what turned out to be. And

344
00:13:15,453 --> 00:13:17,839
so I'll follow questions after this reading. But

345
00:13:18,395 --> 00:13:19,054
this is

346
00:13:20,542 --> 00:13:23,007
early on in the first big chapter.

347
00:13:24,612 --> 00:13:25,510
And this is

348
00:13:26,044 --> 00:13:27,260
Claudia first person

349
00:13:27,635 --> 00:13:29,782
narration. And she's already told us that she

350
00:13:29,782 --> 00:13:30,918
gets baby dolls

351
00:13:31,373 --> 00:13:33,456
for Christmas, and that they're white baby dolls

352
00:13:33,456 --> 00:13:35,604
with blue eyes and that she doesn't understand

353
00:13:35,604 --> 00:13:37,354
why people like them, and she doesn't like

354
00:13:37,354 --> 00:13:39,199
them. Then she goes off to talk about

355
00:13:39,199 --> 00:13:40,473
how much she doesn't like having to take

356
00:13:40,473 --> 00:13:42,306
a bath because she has to wash off

357
00:13:42,306 --> 00:13:44,297
all the ink that she's drawn on herself.

358
00:13:44,456 --> 00:13:46,463
And then she comes out of that sort

359
00:13:46,463 --> 00:13:49,172
of, you know, digress about bathing with this.

360
00:13:50,607 --> 00:13:52,997
I destroyed white baby dolls.

361
00:13:54,127 --> 00:13:56,196
But the dis of dolls was not the

362
00:13:56,196 --> 00:13:59,004
true horror. The truly horrifying thing

363
00:13:59,379 --> 00:14:01,687
was the transfer of the same impulse to

364
00:14:01,687 --> 00:14:02,641
little white girls.

365
00:14:03,532 --> 00:14:05,704
The ind with which I could have axe

366
00:14:05,761 --> 00:14:08,547
them was shaken only by my desire to

367
00:14:08,547 --> 00:14:08,945
do so.

368
00:14:09,582 --> 00:14:11,830
To discover what alluded me. The secret of

369
00:14:11,830 --> 00:14:14,470
the magic they weave on others. What made

370
00:14:14,470 --> 00:14:15,509
people look at them and say,

371
00:14:17,269 --> 00:14:18,389
but not for me.

372
00:14:19,443 --> 00:14:21,675
The eye slide of black women as they

373
00:14:21,675 --> 00:14:23,769
approached them on the street in the possessive

374
00:14:23,907 --> 00:14:26,457
gentleness of their touch as they handled them.

375
00:14:27,509 --> 00:14:28,550
If I pinch them,

376
00:14:29,110 --> 00:14:31,350
their eyes unlike the crazed gl of the

377
00:14:31,350 --> 00:14:34,309
baby dolls eyes would fold in pain, and

378
00:14:34,309 --> 00:14:35,670
their cry would not be the sound of

379
00:14:35,670 --> 00:14:38,158
an ice box door, but a fascinating cry

380
00:14:38,158 --> 00:14:38,636
of pain.

381
00:14:39,272 --> 00:14:42,217
When I learned how repulsive this dis violence

382
00:14:42,217 --> 00:14:44,627
was that it was repulsive because it was

383
00:14:44,779 --> 00:14:47,485
interested, Machine flounder about for refuge.

384
00:14:48,201 --> 00:14:49,793
The best hiding place was love.

385
00:14:50,510 --> 00:14:53,716
Thus the conversion from pristine sad to fabricated

386
00:14:54,012 --> 00:14:54,171
hatred.

387
00:14:54,903 --> 00:14:56,177
To fraudulent love.

388
00:14:56,735 --> 00:14:58,806
It was a small step to shirley temple.

389
00:14:59,603 --> 00:15:01,435
I learned much later to worship her just

390
00:15:01,435 --> 00:15:03,187
as I learned to the delight and cleanliness,

391
00:15:03,426 --> 00:15:05,989
knowing even as I learned that the change

392
00:15:05,989 --> 00:15:06,886
was a adjustment

393
00:15:07,660 --> 00:15:08,535
without improvement.

394
00:15:12,933 --> 00:15:14,152
I see, goddamn.

395
00:15:15,011 --> 00:15:15,251
Yeah.

396
00:15:17,169 --> 00:15:19,566
And, yeah, what was your... What made you

397
00:15:19,566 --> 00:15:21,405
sit? What made your hair stand on in?

398
00:15:21,739 --> 00:15:23,972
Like, what made you suddenly sit up and

399
00:15:23,972 --> 00:15:25,009
be like, oh, I'm in.

400
00:15:26,843 --> 00:15:28,996
Okay. So I'm mean, I was always intrigued

401
00:15:28,996 --> 00:15:30,671
by the baby doll, but this notion of

402
00:15:30,671 --> 00:15:33,001
the blues. Thigh and the blue eyes felt

403
00:15:33,001 --> 00:15:34,677
a little bit familiar to me. Like, the

404
00:15:34,677 --> 00:15:36,294
idea of, like, here's a black girl

405
00:15:36,672 --> 00:15:39,227
who is oppressed by kind of white standards

406
00:15:39,227 --> 00:15:39,785
of beauty,

407
00:15:40,438 --> 00:15:41,948
I was like, I feel like I've heard

408
00:15:41,948 --> 00:15:44,016
this before, probably by somebody who was influenced

409
00:15:44,016 --> 00:15:45,367
by Toni Morrison... Correct.

410
00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:47,435
But but

411
00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:50,252
I think that that

412
00:15:53,322 --> 00:15:53,822
writing

413
00:15:56,748 --> 00:15:58,597
the the the the the poetic

414
00:15:59,446 --> 00:16:01,453
narration of the transfer

415
00:16:02,143 --> 00:16:03,278
of violent,

416
00:16:04,383 --> 00:16:05,680
aggression towards

417
00:16:06,217 --> 00:16:07,834
white girls to

418
00:16:08,211 --> 00:16:09,190
a sort of

419
00:16:10,604 --> 00:16:13,258
nonviolent ado admiration and how that wasn't really

420
00:16:13,889 --> 00:16:16,427
that was changed without improvement because both of

421
00:16:16,427 --> 00:16:18,489
them are stemming from the same force.

422
00:16:19,044 --> 00:16:19,441
Mh.

423
00:16:20,076 --> 00:16:23,032
Was just beautifully put that But I think

424
00:16:23,032 --> 00:16:25,188
also at that moment, I was like, I

425
00:16:25,188 --> 00:16:26,406
don't think I've ever read

426
00:16:27,104 --> 00:16:29,578
a better depiction of the internal tonality of

427
00:16:29,578 --> 00:16:30,398
a child's

428
00:16:33,020 --> 00:16:33,520
resentment

429
00:16:33,895 --> 00:16:35,565
and anger. I don't know that I've ever

430
00:16:35,565 --> 00:16:36,281
read that

431
00:16:36,679 --> 00:16:39,960
better. It just... It felt so believable. And

432
00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,671
so real and also poetic and a little

433
00:16:42,671 --> 00:16:44,926
bit abstract. The language is beautiful,

434
00:16:45,543 --> 00:16:47,936
but it's not easy language to read, you

435
00:16:47,936 --> 00:16:48,095
know,

436
00:16:49,862 --> 00:16:50,362
and

437
00:16:51,852 --> 00:16:53,763
it at this point, I still thought this

438
00:16:53,763 --> 00:16:55,775
was gonna be a story about claudia,

439
00:16:56,884 --> 00:16:59,125
you know, maybe like, making a white friend

440
00:16:59,125 --> 00:17:01,365
and then doing something mean to her or,

441
00:17:01,445 --> 00:17:03,205
you know, there was gonna somehow be a

442
00:17:03,205 --> 00:17:05,292
kind of like, to kill a mocking bird,

443
00:17:05,451 --> 00:17:08,869
like story or Claudia were these resentment and

444
00:17:08,869 --> 00:17:09,108
these...

445
00:17:10,141 --> 00:17:13,017
And then also her then misplaced like love

446
00:17:13,017 --> 00:17:15,080
of shirley temple, like both of these things

447
00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:17,620
were gonna somehow be transformed by some experience,

448
00:17:17,858 --> 00:17:19,287
which is what you normally do,

449
00:17:19,858 --> 00:17:21,452
in kind of a coming of age novel,

450
00:17:21,612 --> 00:17:23,844
which is how this felt up to this

451
00:17:23,844 --> 00:17:24,242
moment.

452
00:17:25,517 --> 00:17:27,923
So I was hooked at this point but

453
00:17:27,923 --> 00:17:30,951
it went somewhere I completely wasn't expecting. Yeah.

454
00:17:31,190 --> 00:17:32,066
But I stayed with it.

455
00:17:32,862 --> 00:17:34,296
But let me ask you, like,

456
00:17:34,949 --> 00:17:36,700
Did you have the same expectation that I'm,

457
00:17:36,939 --> 00:17:38,770
do you remember reading this passage? And it

458
00:17:38,770 --> 00:17:41,317
were were you also... Were you seeing the

459
00:17:41,317 --> 00:17:43,481
same trajectory that I was? Like, this is

460
00:17:43,481 --> 00:17:45,387
gonna be a story about claudia growing in

461
00:17:45,387 --> 00:17:47,850
some way? Yeah. This is... So this is

462
00:17:47,850 --> 00:17:49,757
my... This is the next question I have

463
00:17:49,757 --> 00:17:52,394
for you. Okay. Basically... Like that what I've

464
00:17:52,394 --> 00:17:53,747
gotten the run rundown this question about the

465
00:17:53,747 --> 00:17:56,612
narrator. Yeah. But... So I listened to it

466
00:17:56,612 --> 00:17:58,044
a few times first.

467
00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:01,725
And then I read the text.

468
00:18:03,085 --> 00:18:03,585
And,

469
00:18:04,365 --> 00:18:05,805
you know, I think the first time I

470
00:18:05,805 --> 00:18:06,365
listened to it,

471
00:18:07,085 --> 00:18:09,085
I might have been listening to it while

472
00:18:09,164 --> 00:18:11,328
I was ahmed bicycle, and it might have

473
00:18:11,328 --> 00:18:13,791
been, like, pretty darn windy. Yeah. And, like,

474
00:18:13,950 --> 00:18:15,857
sort of, like, through my headphones, I was

475
00:18:15,857 --> 00:18:16,096
like,

476
00:18:16,890 --> 00:18:19,222
my It's not a it's not a casual

477
00:18:19,222 --> 00:18:20,841
lesson. I think she's

478
00:18:21,220 --> 00:18:22,498
breaking a toy.

479
00:18:22,978 --> 00:18:25,295
Yeah. Like, like, just this... And I was

480
00:18:25,295 --> 00:18:26,746
and I was like, And then when I

481
00:18:26,746 --> 00:18:28,340
went back and listened to it again,

482
00:18:29,296 --> 00:18:31,606
I was just... I was really struck by

483
00:18:31,606 --> 00:18:34,417
the by the deliberate and pre

484
00:18:34,952 --> 00:18:35,452
violence

485
00:18:35,765 --> 00:18:38,644
of the words. Yeah. And this... Because the

486
00:18:38,644 --> 00:18:40,325
weird thing you get in this moment is

487
00:18:40,325 --> 00:18:42,724
there is no way this is claudia at

488
00:18:42,724 --> 00:18:43,045
11.

489
00:18:44,259 --> 00:18:46,755
Like, this is some other

490
00:18:47,691 --> 00:18:48,191
removed

491
00:18:49,048 --> 00:18:49,548
perspective

492
00:18:50,326 --> 00:18:51,624
that is rep surprising

493
00:18:52,082 --> 00:18:52,981
the experience

494
00:18:53,372 --> 00:18:55,118
Of Claudia. Yeah. At 11.

495
00:18:56,308 --> 00:18:59,086
But the vocabulary is it's a it's in

496
00:18:59,086 --> 00:19:01,149
congress. No. And it's in congress. Voice of

497
00:19:01,149 --> 00:19:03,733
a child Right? It's voice of an adult

498
00:19:04,109 --> 00:19:06,100
in... But in a way, articulating, I think,

499
00:19:06,180 --> 00:19:07,215
what a child never could.

500
00:19:07,852 --> 00:19:10,321
Right. Exactly. And and and so...

501
00:19:11,689 --> 00:19:14,734
Like this... So Claudia has now been vested

502
00:19:14,950 --> 00:19:15,586
with, you know,

503
00:19:16,223 --> 00:19:17,416
the first person point of view,

504
00:19:18,067 --> 00:19:18,567
which

505
00:19:18,940 --> 00:19:20,685
instantly, you know, we're like, this is our

506
00:19:20,685 --> 00:19:22,114
main character. That's the default.

507
00:19:23,304 --> 00:19:25,367
And now, like, you're sort of, like, like

508
00:19:25,367 --> 00:19:25,923
you're saying,

509
00:19:27,054 --> 00:19:30,010
and we've been given a starting point. Yeah.

510
00:19:30,649 --> 00:19:32,887
Like, we have this initial incident of the

511
00:19:32,887 --> 00:19:33,206
doll,

512
00:19:33,766 --> 00:19:36,883
and it's like, Oh, like, whoa. I... Like,

513
00:19:37,042 --> 00:19:38,708
I don't know what's gonna come next, but,

514
00:19:38,788 --> 00:19:39,026
like,

515
00:19:39,899 --> 00:19:42,041
I'm kinda worried about Claudia and what's gonna

516
00:19:42,041 --> 00:19:42,676
happen. Yeah.

517
00:19:44,121 --> 00:19:45,019
And then

518
00:19:45,633 --> 00:19:48,498
we moved to Pe. Yep. For for the

519
00:19:48,498 --> 00:19:51,601
arc for pretty much the the remaining arc

520
00:19:51,601 --> 00:19:52,238
of the book.

521
00:19:53,690 --> 00:19:55,769
It's it's like the folk... It's like the

522
00:19:55,769 --> 00:19:57,609
camera pans across the room.

523
00:19:58,089 --> 00:19:59,690
You know, and we're in the same house,

524
00:19:59,849 --> 00:20:01,942
and and actually, it's the next... Seen because

525
00:20:01,942 --> 00:20:02,979
that's when we get the milk.

526
00:20:03,936 --> 00:20:06,409
And and the mother complaining about the milk,

527
00:20:06,728 --> 00:20:08,823
and then I think after that is,

528
00:20:10,875 --> 00:20:12,901
it this... So this is when

529
00:20:13,830 --> 00:20:15,895
Pic experiences Puberty and the girls try to

530
00:20:15,895 --> 00:20:17,325
help her with that, and they briefly get

531
00:20:17,325 --> 00:20:19,444
in trouble with the mother until she realizes

532
00:20:19,564 --> 00:20:21,640
what's going on, and then she's actually kinda

533
00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:23,875
tender. But that's sort of the moment that

534
00:20:23,875 --> 00:20:26,190
we sort of shift focus from Claudia to

535
00:20:26,270 --> 00:20:29,559
Pi like this... Yeah. Was it's labor. It's

536
00:20:29,559 --> 00:20:30,299
like Tempo.

537
00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:31,080
Yeah.

538
00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:32,759
Like like Tempo.

539
00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,860
But, like... But what the reason why Tempo

540
00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:40,371
works. And, like, and keeps the the the

541
00:20:40,771 --> 00:20:42,289
the beach ball up in the air,

542
00:20:42,848 --> 00:20:45,325
the whole time is that that movement continues.

543
00:20:45,578 --> 00:20:48,041
Like, that's a that's that's a crucial fabric

544
00:20:48,041 --> 00:20:49,709
of the of that movie. In that... And

545
00:20:49,868 --> 00:20:52,092
I am not suggesting that the blues side

546
00:20:52,092 --> 00:20:53,363
does not work. That's not what I'm saying

547
00:20:53,363 --> 00:20:56,008
seeing. But differently because the Tam pop, you

548
00:20:56,008 --> 00:20:58,480
have a central thread, and then it pay...

549
00:20:58,879 --> 00:21:01,671
You you transfer to these little side stories

550
00:21:01,671 --> 00:21:03,345
and then you come back to the central

551
00:21:03,345 --> 00:21:05,354
thread. In this case, it's like the first

552
00:21:05,354 --> 00:21:06,710
third of the book is Claudia.

553
00:21:07,268 --> 00:21:09,022
And then the second 2 thirds of the

554
00:21:09,022 --> 00:21:10,400
book are Pe

555
00:21:11,096 --> 00:21:12,792
with occasionally Claudia

556
00:21:14,139 --> 00:21:16,607
observations. Yeah. Of the moment. And there's this

557
00:21:16,607 --> 00:21:19,154
interesting kind of sub plot of claudia and

558
00:21:19,154 --> 00:21:21,166
fried to trying to grow flowers

559
00:21:21,701 --> 00:21:22,440
to help

560
00:21:23,468 --> 00:21:26,100
dead I read twice and didn't quite follow.

561
00:21:26,898 --> 00:21:28,652
Yeah. It's the the final chapter is a

562
00:21:28,652 --> 00:21:30,567
weird 1. Yeah. And...

563
00:21:31,364 --> 00:21:32,241
But, like,

564
00:21:33,213 --> 00:21:34,569
So, I mean, like, I think I I

565
00:21:34,569 --> 00:21:36,322
think I have the same question for you

566
00:21:36,322 --> 00:21:39,134
that maybe you have for me is is

567
00:21:39,670 --> 00:21:42,635
does the shift in the narrator or the

568
00:21:42,635 --> 00:21:43,433
attention work?

569
00:21:46,065 --> 00:21:48,059
Yeah. What what's your take on that? I

570
00:21:48,059 --> 00:21:50,075
think it does. And I think it works

571
00:21:50,212 --> 00:21:50,712
because

572
00:21:51,741 --> 00:21:53,273
for the reasons we're saying

573
00:21:53,964 --> 00:21:54,464
Claudia

574
00:21:54,838 --> 00:21:55,338
narration

575
00:21:56,029 --> 00:21:58,650
always feels like this is the adult who

576
00:21:58,650 --> 00:22:00,477
was Claudia talking to us.

577
00:22:01,128 --> 00:22:03,834
Yep. Which is then, this is the adult

578
00:22:03,834 --> 00:22:07,198
who was Claudia, talking about Claudia friend, Pic

579
00:22:07,414 --> 00:22:09,324
or Claudia friend's father,

580
00:22:10,452 --> 00:22:12,675
sometimes there's a kinda of chorus like voice

581
00:22:12,675 --> 00:22:14,421
as well, but I think it works for

582
00:22:14,421 --> 00:22:15,953
that reason. That's the continuity.

583
00:22:16,644 --> 00:22:18,866
Whether is that the author, Tony Morrison wants

584
00:22:18,866 --> 00:22:20,792
this specs. But even if this is a

585
00:22:20,792 --> 00:22:22,625
fictitious adult who was Claudia,

586
00:22:23,103 --> 00:22:25,754
there's still a continuity there, and it works

587
00:22:26,624 --> 00:22:27,423
It works for me.

588
00:22:28,222 --> 00:22:30,320
I think it could have worked better

589
00:22:31,338 --> 00:22:32,856
with 1 major change.

590
00:22:33,988 --> 00:22:35,894
Which is to take the first 2 pages

591
00:22:35,894 --> 00:22:36,450
out of the book.

592
00:22:37,483 --> 00:22:37,959
Oh 0,

593
00:22:38,754 --> 00:22:40,104
okay. To now which?

594
00:22:41,454 --> 00:22:43,932
Not not being not the author's no I

595
00:22:43,932 --> 00:22:46,158
am talking about, here is the house. It

596
00:22:46,158 --> 00:22:47,747
is green and white. It has a red

597
00:22:47,747 --> 00:22:49,973
door. It is very pretty. Here is the

598
00:22:49,973 --> 00:22:52,198
family. Mother father Dick and Jane, live in

599
00:22:52,198 --> 00:22:53,886
the green and and that goes on for

600
00:22:53,886 --> 00:22:56,279
about 2 pages. Then you get... I don't

601
00:22:56,279 --> 00:22:57,635
have in front of me, but you'd probably

602
00:22:57,635 --> 00:22:58,911
do. I have... I had any ebook book

603
00:22:58,911 --> 00:23:00,427
version. Then you get the sentence that's like,

604
00:23:01,065 --> 00:23:02,500
Nicole father got her pregnant.

605
00:23:03,233 --> 00:23:04,990
You know, dah... And that's it's like, that

606
00:23:04,990 --> 00:23:07,304
should be the first sentence because it... Because

607
00:23:07,304 --> 00:23:10,257
it instead, it happened after all of that

608
00:23:10,337 --> 00:23:12,685
Dick and Jane stuff it just felt like

609
00:23:12,821 --> 00:23:14,411
felt like we were in like, James Joyce

610
00:23:14,411 --> 00:23:16,955
or something. Like, you know, we're just getting

611
00:23:16,955 --> 00:23:19,261
random bits and pieces, and that's a that

612
00:23:19,261 --> 00:23:22,220
was a really, really important sentence that I

613
00:23:22,220 --> 00:23:24,929
missed the first time. I also missed it

614
00:23:24,929 --> 00:23:25,884
the first time around.

615
00:23:26,522 --> 00:23:28,513
And it was because I was trying to

616
00:23:28,513 --> 00:23:31,078
make sense of the the the the Cj

617
00:23:31,078 --> 00:23:32,992
runs, see... You know, all that stuff. Yep.

618
00:23:33,231 --> 00:23:36,502
And, yeah. And, like, it is... Because then

619
00:23:36,502 --> 00:23:37,618
you have... You have it in front of

620
00:23:37,618 --> 00:23:39,453
you. Yeah Yeah. I I've got... So it's

621
00:23:39,453 --> 00:23:41,698
it's the second... It's it's what should be

622
00:23:41,698 --> 00:23:43,687
the second sentence of the book, But even

623
00:23:43,687 --> 00:23:45,596
then she's buried the lead a little bit,

624
00:23:46,232 --> 00:23:47,346
mostly because, like,

625
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,080
I really don't want this book to open

626
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:52,160
with any other sentence than it opens with.

627
00:23:52,799 --> 00:23:54,240
Because, like, I mean, like, the thing that

628
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,993
I'm so jazz about and this book and

629
00:23:57,530 --> 00:23:58,349
surprise surprise

630
00:23:58,807 --> 00:24:01,280
for anyone who's read Tony Morrison forever or

631
00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:03,569
knows me is holy shit the poetry is

632
00:24:03,689 --> 00:24:05,442
just unbelievable. It's it's really really good. Well,

633
00:24:05,522 --> 00:24:06,877
can you give us those first 2 sentences

634
00:24:06,877 --> 00:24:08,631
like the ones after they can jr Or

635
00:24:08,631 --> 00:24:10,942
maybe, like, the first... Whatever 3, whatever makes

636
00:24:10,942 --> 00:24:11,022
sense.

637
00:24:13,110 --> 00:24:14,227
Quiet as it's kept,

638
00:24:14,865 --> 00:24:16,940
there were no mari in the fall of

639
00:24:16,940 --> 00:24:17,897
19 41.

640
00:24:19,108 --> 00:24:21,574
We thought at the time that it was

641
00:24:21,574 --> 00:24:23,960
because Bi was having her father's baby that

642
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:25,233
the Mari gold did not grow.

643
00:24:26,203 --> 00:24:26,863
A little

644
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,553
examination and much less mel cali would have

645
00:24:29,553 --> 00:24:31,787
proved to us that our seeds were not

646
00:24:31,787 --> 00:24:33,701
the only ones that did not sprout.

647
00:24:34,498 --> 00:24:35,216
Nobody's did.

648
00:24:36,108 --> 00:24:38,497
Not even the gardens front the lake showed

649
00:24:38,497 --> 00:24:39,770
showed Mari that year,

650
00:24:40,566 --> 00:24:43,114
but so deeply concerned were we with the

651
00:24:43,114 --> 00:24:46,316
health and safe, delivery of Baby, we could

652
00:24:46,316 --> 00:24:47,910
think of nothing, but our own magic.

653
00:24:48,547 --> 00:24:50,619
If we planted the seeds and said the

654
00:24:50,619 --> 00:24:51,496
right words over them,

655
00:24:52,148 --> 00:24:52,945
they would blossom,

656
00:24:53,502 --> 00:24:55,254
and everything would be all alright.

657
00:24:56,369 --> 00:24:56,608
Man,

658
00:24:57,404 --> 00:25:00,565
like, I'm sorry a great day Morrison, but

659
00:25:00,684 --> 00:25:02,919
If I was her editor in 19 69,

660
00:25:03,158 --> 00:25:04,834
I would have said, this is how your

661
00:25:04,834 --> 00:25:06,988
book starts. We're not doing on that author

662
00:25:06,988 --> 00:25:08,185
note, we're not doing.

663
00:25:08,759 --> 00:25:10,832
See Dick and Jane and run. That is...

664
00:25:11,471 --> 00:25:12,747
That's where it starts. That's where it starts.

665
00:25:12,906 --> 00:25:14,581
Because it's such a good beginning, but I

666
00:25:14,581 --> 00:25:16,575
kind of, like, I was already a little

667
00:25:16,575 --> 00:25:18,664
bit disoriented by the time we got there.

668
00:25:19,144 --> 00:25:21,621
Yep. And and you're not alone. A lot

669
00:25:21,621 --> 00:25:22,760
of the early criticism

670
00:25:24,178 --> 00:25:26,735
speaks to they understand the gesture.

671
00:25:27,465 --> 00:25:30,105
Of the inversion of the very white

672
00:25:31,270 --> 00:25:32,642
4 square box

673
00:25:33,173 --> 00:25:34,307
prose of

674
00:25:34,853 --> 00:25:35,353
Sea

675
00:25:35,807 --> 00:25:38,349
sea run, but almost all of them said

676
00:25:38,349 --> 00:25:40,596
that it was basically AAA need

677
00:25:41,209 --> 00:25:42,655
unnecessary in a That's given

678
00:25:43,212 --> 00:25:44,030
Give given

679
00:25:44,485 --> 00:25:47,031
quality of what comes next. Yeah. I don't

680
00:25:47,031 --> 00:25:48,144
think you need. I think in another book.

681
00:25:48,224 --> 00:25:50,054
Yeah. It... It's an interesting idea. I mean,

682
00:25:50,134 --> 00:25:50,691
it's just like,

683
00:25:52,460 --> 00:25:55,273
it feels very first time author to me

684
00:25:55,331 --> 00:25:58,282
because it is an interesting idea, and it

685
00:25:58,282 --> 00:26:00,650
has talent and it has execution

686
00:26:01,642 --> 00:26:02,142
associated

687
00:26:02,516 --> 00:26:05,772
does provide meaning, but I think that what

688
00:26:05,772 --> 00:26:08,155
the first time author doesn't realize is what

689
00:26:08,155 --> 00:26:10,275
you lose by doing it. And

690
00:26:11,113 --> 00:26:12,629
and also maybe a little bit of, like,

691
00:26:12,789 --> 00:26:15,023
oh, it's 19 70. We have to be

692
00:26:15,023 --> 00:26:16,939
weird and experimental. And it's like you don't.

693
00:26:17,179 --> 00:26:19,766
You should... And and also, like, The narrative

694
00:26:19,900 --> 00:26:21,882
structure of the book is weird and experimental.

695
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,101
It's unlike the closest thing I could think

696
00:26:24,101 --> 00:26:26,161
of was as I laid dying to and.

697
00:26:27,368 --> 00:26:28,162
Which is Faulkner.

698
00:26:28,798 --> 00:26:29,910
I have not read much,

699
00:26:30,546 --> 00:26:33,406
James Baldwin, but I imagine the internal tonality

700
00:26:33,406 --> 00:26:35,407
of the characters probably feels a lot like,

701
00:26:35,565 --> 00:26:36,358
James Baldwin,

702
00:26:36,754 --> 00:26:38,894
just internal tonality from what I have read

703
00:26:38,894 --> 00:26:40,796
of, like, I've read excerpts of his novels

704
00:26:40,796 --> 00:26:42,595
or I've had them read, rich

705
00:26:43,032 --> 00:26:43,510
inc,

706
00:26:43,909 --> 00:26:47,413
deep deep broad. Yeah. Like, intense. And nothing

707
00:26:47,413 --> 00:26:50,121
off limits. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Nothing... There's

708
00:26:50,121 --> 00:26:51,808
nothing we're not gonna talk about. You know,

709
00:26:52,445 --> 00:26:54,196
We're gonna talk about our bodies. We're gonna

710
00:26:54,196 --> 00:26:56,981
talk about our ugly feelings in addition to

711
00:26:56,981 --> 00:26:59,265
our beautiful feelings, you know, we're gonna, you

712
00:26:59,702 --> 00:27:01,770
all of... We're going everywhere. Yeah.

713
00:27:03,202 --> 00:27:05,191
Yeah. I think... I mean, I agree with

714
00:27:05,191 --> 00:27:07,114
you that it... Of that it works,

715
00:27:08,148 --> 00:27:10,532
the the the near narrator shift. And I

716
00:27:10,532 --> 00:27:13,156
think it's also really kind of guts and

717
00:27:13,156 --> 00:27:15,479
amazing. Yeah. Like, like, you're saying...

718
00:27:16,117 --> 00:27:17,573
Let's keep that experimental

719
00:27:18,029 --> 00:27:20,999
nature. Let's do this, like, weird author authority

720
00:27:21,136 --> 00:27:23,947
sleigh of hand where in the first

721
00:27:24,417 --> 00:27:26,804
you know, third of the book. You're like,

722
00:27:26,963 --> 00:27:29,190
oh, this is Claudia story. Yep. And then,

723
00:27:29,349 --> 00:27:30,645
like, she has

724
00:27:31,352 --> 00:27:33,019
she really does have the guts to be

725
00:27:33,019 --> 00:27:33,257
like,

726
00:27:33,971 --> 00:27:34,210
nope.

727
00:27:35,003 --> 00:27:37,226
Yeah. And, like, doesn't apologize for it. It

728
00:27:37,226 --> 00:27:38,829
doesn't walk away from it. And, like like,

729
00:27:39,150 --> 00:27:41,230
it's so funny. I mean, debut novels are...

730
00:27:41,710 --> 00:27:43,309
It's great. You get, you know, you get

731
00:27:43,309 --> 00:27:44,190
an authors like,

732
00:27:44,990 --> 00:27:47,549
biggest fears, but you also get their biggest,

733
00:27:47,963 --> 00:27:50,586
talents kind of writ large. Yeah. And I

734
00:27:50,586 --> 00:27:52,731
think you can... Yeah. I think that that's

735
00:27:52,731 --> 00:27:54,639
really happening here. And and it, you know,

736
00:27:54,798 --> 00:27:57,763
it was about halfway through? I was, like,

737
00:27:58,002 --> 00:28:00,635
wow. There's great writing here, but has this

738
00:28:00,635 --> 00:28:03,365
book lost its way. Is this is this

739
00:28:03,365 --> 00:28:05,445
really something kind of like olive of Kit

740
00:28:05,445 --> 00:28:07,365
ridge now, which is not to say bad,

741
00:28:07,845 --> 00:28:09,684
but, like, are what we're really doing is

742
00:28:09,684 --> 00:28:12,016
a collection of short stories and a portrait

743
00:28:12,016 --> 00:28:13,999
of a community, which okay. That would be

744
00:28:13,999 --> 00:28:15,982
interesting in and of itself. That's fine,

745
00:28:16,775 --> 00:28:18,227
or is this a story

746
00:28:18,853 --> 00:28:20,836
And then it's like, okay, you know, by

747
00:28:20,836 --> 00:28:21,971
the time you get

748
00:28:22,900 --> 00:28:25,756
really by the time you get to Charlie.

749
00:28:26,089 --> 00:28:29,125
And imp his daughter, than the structure of

750
00:28:29,125 --> 00:28:31,043
the book snaps into your brain.

751
00:28:32,321 --> 00:28:34,174
And maybe even a little before that, too.

752
00:28:34,413 --> 00:28:36,426
Because I mean, there is a moment where

753
00:28:36,803 --> 00:28:38,578
that first scene where Charlie,

754
00:28:39,352 --> 00:28:41,995
breed love and his wife are he's passed

755
00:28:41,995 --> 00:28:43,822
out drunk and they're arguing about who's gonna

756
00:28:43,822 --> 00:28:45,411
get the coal, and then we get this

757
00:28:45,411 --> 00:28:47,080
long description of how they fight.

758
00:28:47,716 --> 00:28:49,622
And then there's this illusion.

759
00:28:50,274 --> 00:28:52,667
To what the scene that comes later, which

760
00:28:52,667 --> 00:28:54,283
is that some white men

761
00:28:55,857 --> 00:28:57,155
you know, caught him

762
00:28:57,851 --> 00:29:00,499
having sex and then, you know, forced him

763
00:29:00,499 --> 00:29:02,416
to keep doing it at gunpoint while they

764
00:29:02,416 --> 00:29:02,736
watched.

765
00:29:04,014 --> 00:29:06,651
That's it's interesting. That's there. And I was

766
00:29:06,651 --> 00:29:07,370
like, oh, that's

767
00:29:08,024 --> 00:29:09,542
Explanation for why he is, the way he

768
00:29:09,542 --> 00:29:11,060
is. Yeah. That would really mess you up.

769
00:29:11,220 --> 00:29:12,019
I could see that.

770
00:29:12,738 --> 00:29:14,896
And I almost want... I almost wonder if

771
00:29:14,976 --> 00:29:16,069
Tony Morrison knew

772
00:29:16,747 --> 00:29:18,920
that the book was gonna contain that scene

773
00:29:18,978 --> 00:29:21,527
and was gonna contain those flashbacks later or

774
00:29:21,527 --> 00:29:23,414
not, like, or if

775
00:29:24,010 --> 00:29:25,701
she sort of knew these characters

776
00:29:26,869 --> 00:29:27,369
and

777
00:29:27,742 --> 00:29:29,886
wasn't, you know, day to day writing, just

778
00:29:29,886 --> 00:29:31,871
sort of wrote about them and then assembled

779
00:29:31,871 --> 00:29:33,955
what she had written. Into something. But I

780
00:29:33,955 --> 00:29:35,390
think it... I think, again, what we're both

781
00:29:35,390 --> 00:29:37,962
winding up to is that it works because

782
00:29:38,657 --> 00:29:40,171
almost everything you get in the book is

783
00:29:40,171 --> 00:29:42,816
in some... Port of a very simple plot.

784
00:29:43,215 --> 00:29:45,866
Yeah. And Tory. It we're basically

785
00:29:46,323 --> 00:29:49,678
locating the simple plot in its ecosystem.

786
00:29:50,471 --> 00:29:52,531
And everything is in the ecosystem.

787
00:29:53,403 --> 00:29:53,561
Okay.

788
00:29:54,433 --> 00:29:55,622
We've talked about this before.

789
00:29:56,272 --> 00:29:58,519
But this is a way to sort of

790
00:29:58,576 --> 00:30:00,164
make even clearer the point you just made.

791
00:30:02,468 --> 00:30:03,921
Who is the most,

792
00:30:04,851 --> 00:30:05,248
like,

793
00:30:07,820 --> 00:30:08,320
outlandish

794
00:30:09,500 --> 00:30:10,380
country musician,

795
00:30:11,019 --> 00:30:13,920
in terms of like production and layering

796
00:30:14,380 --> 00:30:15,019
and, like,

797
00:30:15,753 --> 00:30:18,453
the richness and tracks and stuff like that,

798
00:30:19,248 --> 00:30:20,780
who still adhere

799
00:30:21,313 --> 00:30:22,210
to to

800
00:30:22,584 --> 00:30:23,537
Dukes is maxim,

801
00:30:24,269 --> 00:30:26,269
which is that a great country music has...

802
00:30:26,509 --> 00:30:28,669
A great country music song has 1 thing

803
00:30:28,669 --> 00:30:29,549
happening all the time.

804
00:30:30,909 --> 00:30:32,589
Well, it's tough tough 1.

805
00:30:33,484 --> 00:30:34,995
Because I don't... I mean in terms of

806
00:30:34,995 --> 00:30:36,745
whom I'm a... I don't really know the

807
00:30:36,745 --> 00:30:39,529
the youngest generation. So... But going back in

808
00:30:39,529 --> 00:30:41,518
into, like, nineties country where you had all

809
00:30:41,518 --> 00:30:42,567
that over... Option.

810
00:30:44,074 --> 00:30:46,931
Yeah. Alan Jackson. Right. Yeah. Still...

811
00:30:47,724 --> 00:30:49,963
He's got all that modern country stuff, but,

812
00:30:50,123 --> 00:30:51,639
like, this is a song about a mercury.

813
00:30:52,198 --> 00:30:53,256
This is a song

814
00:30:54,192 --> 00:30:55,570
about a working man

815
00:30:56,347 --> 00:30:56,847
who

816
00:30:57,399 --> 00:31:00,200
is gonna leave out start drinking because it's

817
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,460
05:00 somewhere. This is a song about

818
00:31:02,759 --> 00:31:04,954
Chad River. 1 for particular.

819
00:31:05,575 --> 00:31:07,335
And how I never knew how much those

820
00:31:07,335 --> 00:31:09,734
muddy waters meant to me, You know, but

821
00:31:10,134 --> 00:31:11,654
I learned a lot about living and a

822
00:31:11,654 --> 00:31:12,534
little about love.

823
00:31:13,983 --> 00:31:16,131
You know, that... Yeah. I think Alan Jackson

824
00:31:16,131 --> 00:31:17,961
is my answer. There probably other good answers

825
00:31:17,961 --> 00:31:19,154
to that, but he, you know,

826
00:31:20,203 --> 00:31:22,670
he has all the trapping of new, you

827
00:31:22,670 --> 00:31:25,216
know, post postcards Brooks country, while still ad

828
00:31:25,216 --> 00:31:28,240
adhering to, yes. The... A country song is

829
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:28,797
about 1 thing.

830
00:31:29,528 --> 00:31:30,005
All the time.

831
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:31,118
Yeah.

832
00:31:31,674 --> 00:31:33,742
That's what makes Duke is maxim so interesting.

833
00:31:33,901 --> 00:31:35,809
Yes. Because It's about what... It's the addition

834
00:31:35,809 --> 00:31:37,375
of all the time that you put on

835
00:31:37,653 --> 00:31:39,168
I think this book is about 1 thing

836
00:31:39,168 --> 00:31:41,799
all the time. Yeah. I you know? So

837
00:31:41,799 --> 00:31:41,959
so,

838
00:31:42,995 --> 00:31:45,887
congratulations, Alan Jackson, you are the Tony worst.

839
00:31:46,279 --> 00:31:48,050
Of 19 98 country

840
00:31:51,206 --> 00:31:53,511
I can't imagine a better compliment for a

841
00:31:53,511 --> 00:31:56,242
country Hell, yeah. I know. We're certainly not

842
00:31:56,242 --> 00:31:59,539
calling Toni Morrison, the Alan Jackson of no

843
00:31:59,678 --> 00:32:01,756
literature. But I can do that. No.

844
00:32:02,808 --> 00:32:04,953
No. I mean, alan Jackson's great but, like,

845
00:32:05,112 --> 00:32:07,814
no. Tony Morrison morrison. Tony Morrison would be,

846
00:32:07,893 --> 00:32:08,132
like,

847
00:32:08,767 --> 00:32:10,533
I can't I can't even... I cannot even...

848
00:32:10,772 --> 00:32:11,890
I don't think I can... I mean, like,

849
00:32:12,049 --> 00:32:14,145
I I've got... You know, I haven't read

850
00:32:14,284 --> 00:32:15,002
much of hers.

851
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:16,140
And

852
00:32:16,757 --> 00:32:18,922
I am pissed. Yeah. That I have not

853
00:32:18,922 --> 00:32:20,987
read more of hers after reading this book

854
00:32:20,987 --> 00:32:24,959
because, like, Jesus fucking Christ. It's amazing.

855
00:32:25,515 --> 00:32:27,202
I read beloved and twelfth grade, you know,

856
00:32:27,361 --> 00:32:28,898
twelfth grade English, and

857
00:32:29,754 --> 00:32:31,429
I think it's better than the blue eye.

858
00:32:31,669 --> 00:32:32,865
I haven't read it since, so I don't

859
00:32:32,865 --> 00:32:34,939
know. Beloved is like, the master work.

860
00:32:35,656 --> 00:32:37,894
It it I... Certainly... I feel like it

861
00:32:37,894 --> 00:32:39,583
has all the talent

862
00:32:40,192 --> 00:32:42,173
Mh. And ability that we're seeing in the

863
00:32:42,252 --> 00:32:42,886
Blue dye.

864
00:32:43,852 --> 00:32:44,828
At a bigger

865
00:32:45,279 --> 00:32:48,529
grander scale and with more precise control of

866
00:32:48,529 --> 00:32:50,194
craft. Goddamn damn.

867
00:32:51,639 --> 00:32:52,438
That's amazing.

868
00:32:52,837 --> 00:32:54,755
That's... I... Yeah. The 1 what a thing

869
00:32:54,755 --> 00:32:55,494
to say

870
00:32:56,672 --> 00:32:57,950
coming after this book.

871
00:32:58,524 --> 00:33:00,845
Which is which is grand and scale and

872
00:33:00,845 --> 00:33:03,325
has an extremely high level of craft already.

873
00:33:03,565 --> 00:33:05,164
It it does. I mean, you know, and

874
00:33:05,164 --> 00:33:07,099
maybe because I've read beloved. I... I can...

875
00:33:07,420 --> 00:33:08,619
I do feel like I can see a

876
00:33:08,619 --> 00:33:10,220
few seams in this book. And and the

877
00:33:10,299 --> 00:33:11,900
Dick and Jane bit was 1 of them.

878
00:33:12,220 --> 00:33:13,900
There, you know, I I think you could

879
00:33:13,900 --> 00:33:15,933
maybe argue that sometimes

880
00:33:16,309 --> 00:33:16,809
the...

881
00:33:18,695 --> 00:33:19,730
I don't... I mean, like,

882
00:33:21,559 --> 00:33:25,082
there... I... Sometimes maybe they spiral a bit

883
00:33:25,082 --> 00:33:26,916
the out of orbit bit. Sometimes we get

884
00:33:26,916 --> 00:33:28,134
kind of, like, a pluto

885
00:33:28,591 --> 00:33:31,484
as opposed to a neptune, You know, First

886
00:33:31,542 --> 00:33:33,309
digress out. The horse.

887
00:33:34,024 --> 00:33:36,886
Mh. Yeah. 2... It's a lot. Yeah. It's

888
00:33:36,886 --> 00:33:39,508
it's a lot to only pay off a

889
00:33:39,508 --> 00:33:41,830
small, like, not a punch, but a small

890
00:33:41,830 --> 00:33:43,740
reveal that the Mag line is actually miss

891
00:33:43,819 --> 00:33:46,285
Marie, and she is actually quite a lot

892
00:33:46,285 --> 00:33:48,053
kinder than, like the... Sort of making her

893
00:33:48,053 --> 00:33:49,510
out to be. Yep. But,

894
00:33:49,887 --> 00:33:52,679
you know, the the heart of the first

895
00:33:52,679 --> 00:33:54,854
section about the horrors is how

896
00:33:55,231 --> 00:33:56,906
they are different from other horrors.

897
00:33:58,194 --> 00:34:01,294
In their contempt for men. Yeah. And the

898
00:34:01,294 --> 00:34:04,632
the passage about, they're very sensible contempt for

899
00:34:04,632 --> 00:34:06,540
men, I think is the reason that that.

900
00:34:06,714 --> 00:34:08,635
Is there. Yeah. And I think there's probably

901
00:34:08,635 --> 00:34:10,635
a little too much scaffolding in leading up

902
00:34:10,635 --> 00:34:11,675
to that reading.

903
00:34:12,795 --> 00:34:14,635
But, yeah. I mean, you know, I mean,

904
00:34:15,447 --> 00:34:17,279
we we could we could pick at this

905
00:34:17,279 --> 00:34:19,748
book and find some seams, but Yeah. Yeah.

906
00:34:19,987 --> 00:34:21,978
Why? Well, and it's also hard to remember

907
00:34:21,978 --> 00:34:24,643
them because the things that probably,

908
00:34:25,497 --> 00:34:28,386
I was thinking that maybe Sop ed church

909
00:34:28,603 --> 00:34:30,673
was excessive, but no. I don't think so

910
00:34:30,673 --> 00:34:32,266
because it's... He's very memorable.

911
00:34:32,679 --> 00:34:33,418
And ultimately

912
00:34:34,191 --> 00:34:34,748
he... Well,

913
00:34:36,181 --> 00:34:38,171
it's interesting because I I gave you the

914
00:34:38,171 --> 00:34:39,683
plot, but there is another part of the

915
00:34:39,683 --> 00:34:42,173
plot I forget to say, which is

916
00:34:42,644 --> 00:34:43,144
that

917
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:45,059
I say that

918
00:34:47,591 --> 00:34:47,990
pickle

919
00:34:49,107 --> 00:34:49,926
was broken

920
00:34:50,319 --> 00:34:52,552
mentally, which I think is true. It's also

921
00:34:52,552 --> 00:34:54,648
true that in her mind, she magically

922
00:34:55,265 --> 00:34:57,201
pray and receives blue eyes

923
00:34:57,513 --> 00:34:59,919
Mh. As well as a friend

924
00:35:02,517 --> 00:35:04,980
who sees her blue eyes and sees her

925
00:35:04,980 --> 00:35:06,727
as beautiful, who she can talk to.

926
00:35:08,333 --> 00:35:08,571
Now,

927
00:35:10,003 --> 00:35:12,071
I mean, Chris bag, do you think that

928
00:35:12,071 --> 00:35:13,583
those 2 elements are...

929
00:35:15,114 --> 00:35:15,614
Real

930
00:35:16,074 --> 00:35:17,514
in the reality of this book.

931
00:35:18,954 --> 00:35:19,195
No.

932
00:35:20,635 --> 00:35:22,554
Right. So she... I mean, and she's gone

933
00:35:22,554 --> 00:35:25,520
matt Right? Like, she's she's she's crazy.

934
00:35:26,078 --> 00:35:28,471
She's lost her sense of reality. Her mind

935
00:35:28,471 --> 00:35:31,262
is broken, But it is so ed Smith

936
00:35:31,262 --> 00:35:34,005
who casts that the spell in her

937
00:35:34,458 --> 00:35:36,763
imagination that turns her eyes, blue. And there's

938
00:35:36,763 --> 00:35:38,830
also something really interesting in that moment because,

939
00:35:38,909 --> 00:35:40,499
like, if you were to set out to

940
00:35:40,499 --> 00:35:40,999
write

941
00:35:41,547 --> 00:35:43,536
the most rep pregnant character you could think

942
00:35:43,536 --> 00:35:45,764
of. You would arrive at something like Sop

943
00:35:45,922 --> 00:35:47,536
Smith. And yet

944
00:35:48,484 --> 00:35:49,223
He also

945
00:35:49,761 --> 00:35:52,634
commits 1 of the books like pen acts

946
00:35:52,634 --> 00:35:53,373
of kindness

947
00:35:53,831 --> 00:35:55,528
as well in generosity.

948
00:35:55,986 --> 00:35:58,889
Do you, like, He's essentially a child mole

949
00:35:59,344 --> 00:36:00,083
who takes

950
00:36:00,617 --> 00:36:01,117
who

951
00:36:01,969 --> 00:36:02,469
sees...

952
00:36:04,290 --> 00:36:06,119
Colon in a way that nobody else does

953
00:36:06,119 --> 00:36:08,186
and gives her what she needs in that

954
00:36:08,186 --> 00:36:08,505
moment.

955
00:36:09,617 --> 00:36:11,208
Even even though it's a fraud and a

956
00:36:11,208 --> 00:36:11,446
cone,

957
00:36:12,178 --> 00:36:13,077
rate. And

958
00:36:14,013 --> 00:36:16,007
and that's... I mean, that's what I think

959
00:36:16,007 --> 00:36:16,826
1 of the

960
00:36:17,602 --> 00:36:20,553
just arrest in successes of this novel is

961
00:36:20,553 --> 00:36:21,372
that it

962
00:36:22,404 --> 00:36:22,904
un

963
00:36:23,682 --> 00:36:24,801
deals with these, like,

964
00:36:25,681 --> 00:36:27,619
like, just absolutely terrible

965
00:36:28,078 --> 00:36:28,797
subjects. Yeah.

966
00:36:29,756 --> 00:36:30,256
And

967
00:36:32,486 --> 00:36:36,395
everybody is a person. Yep. Yep. And everybody

968
00:36:36,395 --> 00:36:38,491
is kinda given their moment

969
00:36:38,804 --> 00:36:39,304
of

970
00:36:40,319 --> 00:36:43,749
not not explanation or excuse, but everybody everybody

971
00:36:43,749 --> 00:36:47,099
is given their story. And it is, yeah.

972
00:36:47,259 --> 00:36:48,476
I mean, like, the true

973
00:36:49,110 --> 00:36:52,010
that the the tragedy is pi us, but

974
00:36:52,630 --> 00:36:55,110
that's just the tragedy that we're focusing on.

975
00:36:55,269 --> 00:36:55,430
Yeah.

976
00:36:56,085 --> 00:36:58,184
Yeah. It's at the... Everybody's

977
00:36:58,565 --> 00:37:01,704
tragedy, and they all intersect. And then Pic

978
00:37:01,765 --> 00:37:02,985
happens to be

979
00:37:03,765 --> 00:37:06,333
1 of the weakest and least fortunate of

980
00:37:06,333 --> 00:37:09,278
the characters and who has the has the

981
00:37:09,278 --> 00:37:10,472
least help, you know,

982
00:37:11,746 --> 00:37:12,701
of of anybody.

983
00:37:13,591 --> 00:37:13,750
Yeah.

984
00:37:14,783 --> 00:37:16,373
I've got a reading... So this is my,

985
00:37:16,532 --> 00:37:17,884
like, craft hat moment. Okay.

986
00:37:18,679 --> 00:37:21,166
And because what I thought, so

987
00:37:21,620 --> 00:37:22,120
just

988
00:37:23,784 --> 00:37:24,284
unreal

989
00:37:24,740 --> 00:37:26,037
about this passage.

990
00:37:27,449 --> 00:37:28,884
I mean, the ideas are great. The writing

991
00:37:28,884 --> 00:37:30,955
is great The pacing is great. Everything about

992
00:37:30,955 --> 00:37:31,911
it is pretty amazing.

993
00:37:34,162 --> 00:37:36,239
The thing I want you to track as

994
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:38,577
best you can as I'm reading it

995
00:37:38,955 --> 00:37:39,455
is

996
00:37:40,007 --> 00:37:40,507
the

997
00:37:41,361 --> 00:37:43,294
way that the part of speech

998
00:37:44,227 --> 00:37:45,364
that outdoors

999
00:37:46,297 --> 00:37:48,465
morph sent into over the course of these

1000
00:37:48,465 --> 00:37:49,264
paragraphs. Okay.

1001
00:37:49,985 --> 00:37:51,824
You know, not just... Well, not just part

1002
00:37:51,824 --> 00:37:53,264
of speech, but also, like,

1003
00:37:54,945 --> 00:37:57,400
right. When's it subject, When's a verb, Winston

1004
00:37:57,677 --> 00:37:59,420
objects, all of that stuff. I might grab

1005
00:37:59,420 --> 00:37:59,895
a notebook.

1006
00:38:00,450 --> 00:38:02,114
Yeah. To take that... I'm gonna quiz you

1007
00:38:02,114 --> 00:38:04,984
on it. I just... No. No. But III

1008
00:38:04,984 --> 00:38:06,263
just... III

1009
00:38:06,263 --> 00:38:07,461
wanna track that. Okay.

1010
00:38:09,139 --> 00:38:10,358
Outdoors we knew

1011
00:38:10,817 --> 00:38:12,415
was the real terror of life.

1012
00:38:13,470 --> 00:38:16,910
The threat of being outdoors surfaced frequently in

1013
00:38:16,910 --> 00:38:17,470
those days.

1014
00:38:18,269 --> 00:38:21,150
Every possibility of excess was curtail with it.

1015
00:38:21,643 --> 00:38:23,868
If somebody ate too much, he could end

1016
00:38:23,868 --> 00:38:24,583
up outdoors.

1017
00:38:25,297 --> 00:38:27,601
If somebody used too much coal, he could

1018
00:38:27,601 --> 00:38:28,317
end up outdoors.

1019
00:38:29,206 --> 00:38:32,782
People could gamble themselves outdoors, drink themselves outdoors.

1020
00:38:33,418 --> 00:38:36,774
Sometimes mothers put their sons outdoors, and when

1021
00:38:36,774 --> 00:38:37,333
that happened,

1022
00:38:37,813 --> 00:38:39,890
regardless of what the son had done, all

1023
00:38:39,890 --> 00:38:40,849
sympathy was with him.

1024
00:38:41,648 --> 00:38:43,806
He was outdoors, and his own flesh had

1025
00:38:43,806 --> 00:38:44,045
done it.

1026
00:38:44,859 --> 00:38:46,851
To be put outdoors by a landlord was

1027
00:38:46,851 --> 00:38:47,329
1 thing.

1028
00:38:48,045 --> 00:38:50,356
Unfortunate, but an aspect of life over which

1029
00:38:50,356 --> 00:38:52,202
you had no control since you could not

1030
00:38:52,202 --> 00:38:52,838
control your income.

1031
00:38:53,632 --> 00:38:55,777
But to be slack enough to put one's

1032
00:38:55,777 --> 00:38:58,795
self outdoors or heartless enough to put one's

1033
00:38:58,795 --> 00:39:00,225
own kin outdoors,

1034
00:39:01,019 --> 00:39:02,149
that was criminal.

1035
00:39:03,668 --> 00:39:06,325
There is a difference between being put out

1036
00:39:06,704 --> 00:39:08,463
and being put outdoors.

1037
00:39:09,262 --> 00:39:11,019
If you were put out, you go somewhere

1038
00:39:11,019 --> 00:39:11,155
else

1039
00:39:11,911 --> 00:39:14,222
If you were outdoors, there is no place

1040
00:39:14,222 --> 00:39:14,620
to go.

1041
00:39:15,577 --> 00:39:18,046
The distinction was subtle, but final.

1042
00:39:19,175 --> 00:39:21,742
Outdoors was the end of something, an irr

1043
00:39:22,117 --> 00:39:22,911
physical fact,

1044
00:39:23,468 --> 00:39:25,932
defining and complementing our meta physical condition.

1045
00:39:26,664 --> 00:39:29,454
Being a minority in both cast and class.

1046
00:39:30,013 --> 00:39:31,687
We moved about way on the hem of

1047
00:39:31,687 --> 00:39:34,478
life struggling to consolidate our weaknesses and hang

1048
00:39:34,478 --> 00:39:37,285
on, or to creep sing up into the

1049
00:39:37,285 --> 00:39:38,642
major folds of the garment.

1050
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,392
Our peripheral existence, however was something we had

1051
00:39:42,392 --> 00:39:43,190
learned to deal with.

1052
00:39:43,843 --> 00:39:45,514
Probably because it was abstract.

1053
00:39:46,309 --> 00:39:49,172
But the concrete of being outdoors was another

1054
00:39:49,172 --> 00:39:52,036
matter, like the difference between the concept of

1055
00:39:52,036 --> 00:39:53,429
death and being

1056
00:39:53,888 --> 00:39:54,447
in fact,

1057
00:39:55,167 --> 00:39:55,407
dead.

1058
00:39:56,525 --> 00:39:57,744
Dead doesn't change

1059
00:39:58,124 --> 00:39:59,103
and outdoors

1060
00:39:59,482 --> 00:40:00,361
is here to stay.

1061
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:02,040
Yeah.

1062
00:40:03,655 --> 00:40:05,734
This is still when I thought this was

1063
00:40:05,734 --> 00:40:08,375
a claudia coming of age story. Which it

1064
00:40:08,375 --> 00:40:10,542
is? By the way, Right. Yes. Yes. It

1065
00:40:10,542 --> 00:40:12,289
is. Claudia does have a coming of age

1066
00:40:12,289 --> 00:40:13,480
jerk, a, a sad 1.

1067
00:40:14,354 --> 00:40:16,181
So 1 thing I noticed there Right? So

1068
00:40:16,181 --> 00:40:17,928
if you take the word outdoors, which is

1069
00:40:17,928 --> 00:40:19,063
a compound word

1070
00:40:20,014 --> 00:40:21,054
Outdoors is generally a noun,

1071
00:40:21,934 --> 00:40:22,655
most of the time,

1072
00:40:23,375 --> 00:40:25,375
you can break it down into a preposition

1073
00:40:25,375 --> 00:40:26,175
and another noun.

1074
00:40:26,815 --> 00:40:28,335
Outdoors as in through the doors.

1075
00:40:28,987 --> 00:40:31,690
And that usage of put out is a

1076
00:40:31,690 --> 00:40:34,391
more explicit version of that. So when somebody

1077
00:40:34,391 --> 00:40:37,745
is put outdoors, they're put out through the

1078
00:40:37,745 --> 00:40:38,245
door

1079
00:40:38,858 --> 00:40:42,062
into the outdoors, but they are also converted

1080
00:40:42,357 --> 00:40:43,391
ag ti.

1081
00:40:43,868 --> 00:40:46,909
Yes. Young to somebody who is outdoors,

1082
00:40:47,467 --> 00:40:49,378
which is to today... It it's similar to

1083
00:40:49,378 --> 00:40:50,595
how we use the word homeless

1084
00:40:51,131 --> 00:40:53,795
today. It is it has become an title

1085
00:40:54,012 --> 00:40:56,399
state of being. If you've been put out,

1086
00:40:57,195 --> 00:40:58,968
okay. You were put out

1087
00:40:59,677 --> 00:41:01,268
but you are put out and you're sleeping

1088
00:41:01,268 --> 00:41:03,497
on your mother's couch now, or you're sleeping

1089
00:41:03,497 --> 00:41:04,133
and your friend's,

1090
00:41:05,884 --> 00:41:06,441
hen house.

1091
00:41:07,414 --> 00:41:09,255
And that's the distinction. And again,

1092
00:41:09,894 --> 00:41:12,075
she parallels that with

1093
00:41:12,535 --> 00:41:15,108
death dead. Death is a noun. Debt is

1094
00:41:15,108 --> 00:41:15,747
an adjective.

1095
00:41:16,545 --> 00:41:18,961
Outdoors is both a noun, but it becomes

1096
00:41:19,019 --> 00:41:21,595
an adjective. And it also comes to mean

1097
00:41:21,813 --> 00:41:23,250
without home, without family.

1098
00:41:23,744 --> 00:41:26,294
Without anything that matters in in this cruel

1099
00:41:26,294 --> 00:41:26,794
world

1100
00:41:27,171 --> 00:41:28,127
too. And

1101
00:41:28,765 --> 00:41:30,678
yeah. I mean, you know... It's the mechanics

1102
00:41:30,678 --> 00:41:31,315
of poetry.

1103
00:41:31,808 --> 00:41:33,478
Oh, yeah. Totally In the midst of a

1104
00:41:33,478 --> 00:41:33,797
novel.

1105
00:41:34,592 --> 00:41:37,297
And it's... Yeah. She... Yeah. She's manipulating. It

1106
00:41:37,297 --> 00:41:38,808
it shows up as a... It it shows

1107
00:41:38,808 --> 00:41:40,081
up early as a subject.

1108
00:41:40,494 --> 00:41:42,800
Yeah. And then it shows up as an

1109
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:45,505
object. Yep. And then it is... As you

1110
00:41:45,505 --> 00:41:46,778
said, it's an adjective.

1111
00:41:48,150 --> 00:41:50,549
Even the verbs that lead to it in

1112
00:41:50,549 --> 00:41:53,529
some cases are transit and some cases transit.

1113
00:41:54,789 --> 00:41:57,596
And it's just like it's it... And then

1114
00:41:57,596 --> 00:42:00,319
it just sort of, like spirals up into

1115
00:42:00,772 --> 00:42:03,972
poetic philosophy. Yeah. There's a lot of poetic

1116
00:42:04,028 --> 00:42:07,872
philosophy andy it fucking works. Yeah. Like, you're

1117
00:42:07,872 --> 00:42:09,330
still carried along

1118
00:42:09,788 --> 00:42:12,742
on the, like rhythm and the beauty of

1119
00:42:12,742 --> 00:42:13,220
the pros.

1120
00:42:14,509 --> 00:42:15,782
And it I just I think... Well, and

1121
00:42:16,021 --> 00:42:18,009
I'll say, like, another thing. It's also anthropology.

1122
00:42:18,327 --> 00:42:20,577
Right? She's... It's it's like she's

1123
00:42:20,889 --> 00:42:23,206
She's doing what a cultural ant pathologist would

1124
00:42:23,206 --> 00:42:25,763
do in this community and saying, there's this

1125
00:42:25,763 --> 00:42:28,135
category that exists for this people. It's a

1126
00:42:28,254 --> 00:42:30,240
category that might be familiar to you, but

1127
00:42:30,240 --> 00:42:33,020
these people use this particular terminology for it

1128
00:42:33,020 --> 00:42:34,927
outdoors. That's different from being put out.

1129
00:42:36,138 --> 00:42:38,612
The there's a kind of, like margaret need

1130
00:42:38,612 --> 00:42:40,050
quality to it as well.

1131
00:42:40,608 --> 00:42:43,104
And I I think I think that's why

1132
00:42:43,562 --> 00:42:45,494
the book is so so successful.

1133
00:42:46,293 --> 00:42:48,529
Because, like, you pointed out that it... Like,

1134
00:42:48,769 --> 00:42:51,405
it does this odd shift in focus.

1135
00:42:52,777 --> 00:42:54,372
And we both are sort of, like, yeah,

1136
00:42:54,532 --> 00:42:55,329
It it works.

1137
00:42:55,808 --> 00:42:57,323
And I think 1 of the reasons why

1138
00:42:57,323 --> 00:42:59,876
it works is, like, this voice has so

1139
00:42:59,876 --> 00:43:01,550
much Goddamn authority. Yeah.

1140
00:43:02,203 --> 00:43:05,146
And I think it so she's managing to

1141
00:43:05,146 --> 00:43:06,362
achieve that authority

1142
00:43:07,851 --> 00:43:08,351
while

1143
00:43:09,139 --> 00:43:11,214
she is telling the story.

1144
00:43:12,651 --> 00:43:15,844
It's like it's like feeding kids beats by

1145
00:43:15,844 --> 00:43:17,361
containing it in chocolate cake.

1146
00:43:18,412 --> 00:43:20,956
You know? Yeah like, Yeah. It really does.

1147
00:43:21,114 --> 00:43:23,260
She does manage to slip in stuff that

1148
00:43:23,260 --> 00:43:26,281
would normally be un imp, like philosophy into

1149
00:43:26,281 --> 00:43:26,758
a novel.

1150
00:43:27,489 --> 00:43:29,650
And turns it into, like, for me, it

1151
00:43:29,650 --> 00:43:32,550
was just this like, amazing roller coaster High

1152
00:43:32,690 --> 00:43:33,590
act of

1153
00:43:34,369 --> 00:43:36,219
of writing. Well, I think, you know, it's

1154
00:43:36,219 --> 00:43:37,813
interesting to use the word authority because to

1155
00:43:37,813 --> 00:43:39,726
me, the chocolate cake in your metaphor would

1156
00:43:39,726 --> 00:43:42,037
be the delicious ness of the pros, which

1157
00:43:42,037 --> 00:43:42,356
exists.

1158
00:43:42,928 --> 00:43:45,076
And then I... But I also think there's

1159
00:43:45,076 --> 00:43:47,381
a quality to which the writer is like

1160
00:43:47,381 --> 00:43:49,926
a kind of somewhat strict but loving mom

1161
00:43:49,926 --> 00:43:51,516
putting the chocolate cake in front of the

1162
00:43:51,516 --> 00:43:52,471
kid and being like, eat.

1163
00:43:53,364 --> 00:43:56,105
At, like, it's that authority, which is,

1164
00:43:57,204 --> 00:43:59,704
you know, disagree with Toni Morrison

1165
00:44:00,813 --> 00:44:03,353
view of the world at your own risk.

1166
00:44:03,750 --> 00:44:06,131
Yeah. You know? And it's interesting. I was

1167
00:44:06,131 --> 00:44:07,813
listening to an interview she did on fresh

1168
00:44:07,813 --> 00:44:09,724
air with Terry Gross. And there's this moment

1169
00:44:09,724 --> 00:44:11,316
where Terry questions are about something.

1170
00:44:11,873 --> 00:44:13,010
And Tony Morrison

1171
00:44:13,465 --> 00:44:14,659
I think takes it as a little bit

1172
00:44:14,659 --> 00:44:16,742
of a challenge. And kind of flips it

1173
00:44:16,742 --> 00:44:19,128
back on her in a way that is

1174
00:44:19,128 --> 00:44:22,411
formidable. And you hear Terry gross kind of

1175
00:44:22,547 --> 00:44:24,534
catch yourself. And then I would say to

1176
00:44:24,534 --> 00:44:25,091
her credit,

1177
00:44:25,585 --> 00:44:28,545
clarify her question in a way that makes

1178
00:44:28,545 --> 00:44:30,385
more sense, Toni Morrison and they go to

1179
00:44:30,385 --> 00:44:32,224
have kind of a productive discussion. But there

1180
00:44:32,224 --> 00:44:33,125
is a moment

1181
00:44:33,678 --> 00:44:36,144
there, where it's sort of, like, are you

1182
00:44:36,144 --> 00:44:36,644
questioning,

1183
00:44:37,099 --> 00:44:37,417
like,

1184
00:44:38,213 --> 00:44:38,713
my

1185
00:44:39,168 --> 00:44:42,191
my understanding of this world and you better

1186
00:44:42,191 --> 00:44:42,350
not?

1187
00:44:43,082 --> 00:44:43,582
And,

1188
00:44:44,358 --> 00:44:46,270
because, you know, she's she's from it and

1189
00:44:46,270 --> 00:44:47,864
she's lived it. And Yeah. You know, it...

1190
00:44:48,023 --> 00:44:49,777
It's interesting. She has like... I think there's

1191
00:44:49,777 --> 00:44:52,013
there's a there's a quality of authority there

1192
00:44:52,013 --> 00:44:53,835
that can even be a little bit intimidating.

1193
00:44:54,231 --> 00:44:56,371
Although having listened to a few interviews with

1194
00:44:56,450 --> 00:44:57,163
Toni Morrison,

1195
00:44:57,894 --> 00:44:59,815
somebody could say to her. I don't think

1196
00:44:59,815 --> 00:45:01,174
the world is quite this way. I think

1197
00:45:01,174 --> 00:45:03,255
it's this way, and she'll consider it. But

1198
00:45:03,335 --> 00:45:04,934
Yeah. That's not what she's doing in this

1199
00:45:04,934 --> 00:45:08,215
novel. She is not saying, oh, maybe my

1200
00:45:08,215 --> 00:45:09,887
childhood was more like this or maybe these

1201
00:45:09,887 --> 00:45:12,196
people were she's like, this is what the

1202
00:45:12,196 --> 00:45:15,484
world was. Yeah. This and you really you

1203
00:45:15,484 --> 00:45:18,144
really believe it. And I think it's because

1204
00:45:18,204 --> 00:45:19,425
of this amazing

1205
00:45:20,445 --> 00:45:21,585
combination of

1206
00:45:22,459 --> 00:45:23,257
writing chops,

1207
00:45:24,614 --> 00:45:25,514
earned confidence.

1208
00:45:26,371 --> 00:45:28,606
And I think... I mean, also she started

1209
00:45:28,606 --> 00:45:30,282
late. Yeah. I mean, this comes at... Like,

1210
00:45:30,442 --> 00:45:32,214
she wrote this when she was 39. Yeah.

1211
00:45:32,454 --> 00:45:34,054
And, like, you know,

1212
00:45:34,775 --> 00:45:37,335
what's not late. That's just... That's a bit

1213
00:45:37,335 --> 00:45:39,574
early. That's just right. That's right.

1214
00:45:40,789 --> 00:45:42,301
Even a bit early, I would say. I

1215
00:45:42,301 --> 00:45:43,973
think I think a first time novel should

1216
00:45:43,973 --> 00:45:46,122
really be in his mid late forties or

1217
00:45:46,122 --> 00:45:48,271
her mid late forties. Exactly or their mid

1218
00:45:48,271 --> 00:45:50,203
to late for. I mean perhaps even early

1219
00:45:50,203 --> 00:45:50,442
fifties.

1220
00:45:51,161 --> 00:45:52,461
Sharon didn't

1221
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:54,518
publish until she was in her early forties.

1222
00:45:54,757 --> 00:45:56,536
I mean, if you wanna write a novel

1223
00:45:56,675 --> 00:45:59,240
that is April profession that is tolerant of

1224
00:45:59,240 --> 00:46:02,262
age. Yes. Right Yeah. Say unlike being a

1225
00:46:02,262 --> 00:46:03,058
professional baseball player.

1226
00:46:04,823 --> 00:46:05,062
True.

1227
00:46:06,178 --> 00:46:07,612
We gotta get it we gotta... That's good.

1228
00:46:07,851 --> 00:46:08,488
Nice work. Yeah.

1229
00:46:09,285 --> 00:46:09,604
Ding,

1230
00:46:10,958 --> 00:46:11,675
drink everybody.

1231
00:46:12,564 --> 00:46:15,738
Yeah. Exactly. Unless... We brought up baseball. Unless

1232
00:46:15,738 --> 00:46:18,515
you develop a a knuckle curve or a

1233
00:46:18,515 --> 00:46:20,917
knuckle ball like, midway through your career? Like,

1234
00:46:21,076 --> 00:46:22,908
who's the guy from the Met who who,

1235
00:46:22,987 --> 00:46:25,297
like, developed a knuckle ball at each 38

1236
00:46:25,297 --> 00:46:26,970
and then had another, like, won the Sci

1237
00:46:26,970 --> 00:46:28,980
young award and had another sure was Tony

1238
00:46:29,139 --> 00:46:29,460
Morrison.

1239
00:46:31,699 --> 00:46:33,380
Tony Morrison and picture for the

1240
00:46:34,179 --> 00:46:34,900
For mad.

1241
00:46:35,539 --> 00:46:36,980
Do you wanna do your final reading though?

1242
00:46:37,315 --> 00:46:39,155
Sure. Yeah. Why not. Well, wait let let's

1243
00:46:39,155 --> 00:46:42,914
leave with her words. Yep. Each night without

1244
00:46:42,914 --> 00:46:43,235
fail,

1245
00:46:43,795 --> 00:46:45,155
she prayed for blue eyes.

1246
00:46:46,206 --> 00:46:46,706
Fe

1247
00:46:47,083 --> 00:46:48,836
for a year she had prayed.

1248
00:46:50,112 --> 00:46:52,901
Although somewhat discouraged, she was not without hope,

1249
00:46:53,474 --> 00:46:55,963
to have something as wonderful as that happen

1250
00:46:56,021 --> 00:46:58,170
would take a long, long time.

1251
00:46:59,364 --> 00:47:01,990
Thrown in this way into the binding conviction

1252
00:47:01,990 --> 00:47:04,625
that only a miracle could relieve her. She

1253
00:47:04,625 --> 00:47:05,893
would never know her beauty.

1254
00:47:06,606 --> 00:47:08,666
She would see only what there was to

1255
00:47:08,666 --> 00:47:08,903
see.

1256
00:47:09,538 --> 00:47:11,299
The eyes of other people.

1257
00:47:12,731 --> 00:47:14,879
She walks down Garden Avenue to a small

1258
00:47:14,879 --> 00:47:16,788
grocery store which sells penny candy.

1259
00:47:17,425 --> 00:47:20,222
3 pennies are in her shoe. Slipping back

1260
00:47:20,222 --> 00:47:22,288
and forth between the sock and the inner

1261
00:47:22,288 --> 00:47:25,465
soul. With each step, she feels the painful

1262
00:47:25,465 --> 00:47:27,134
press of the coins against her foot.

1263
00:47:28,024 --> 00:47:29,622
A suite, in durable,

1264
00:47:30,101 --> 00:47:31,081
even cherished

1265
00:47:31,619 --> 00:47:34,415
irritation, full of promise and delicate security.

1266
00:47:35,307 --> 00:47:37,058
There is plenty of time to consider what

1267
00:47:37,058 --> 00:47:37,536
to buy.

1268
00:47:39,207 --> 00:47:40,003
Now, however,

1269
00:47:40,481 --> 00:47:43,266
she moves down an avenue gently buffet by

1270
00:47:43,266 --> 00:47:46,792
the familiar and their for loved images, the

1271
00:47:46,792 --> 00:47:48,710
dan alliance at the base of the telephone

1272
00:47:48,710 --> 00:47:48,949
pole.

1273
00:47:49,828 --> 00:47:52,305
Why she wonders to people call them weeds.

1274
00:47:53,119 --> 00:47:54,156
She thought they were pretty,

1275
00:47:55,034 --> 00:47:57,746
but grown up say, miss Dun keeps her

1276
00:47:57,746 --> 00:48:00,060
yards so nice, not a dan lion anywhere.

1277
00:48:01,034 --> 00:48:03,591
Hun women in black Be go into the

1278
00:48:03,591 --> 00:48:05,269
fields with baskets to pull them up,

1279
00:48:05,988 --> 00:48:07,746
but they do not want the yellow heads,

1280
00:48:08,066 --> 00:48:09,185
only the jagged leaves.

1281
00:48:09,678 --> 00:48:10,947
They make Dan lion soup,

1282
00:48:11,582 --> 00:48:12,534
dan line wine.

1283
00:48:13,407 --> 00:48:15,470
Nobody loves the head of a dan line,

1284
00:48:16,104 --> 00:48:17,905
maybe because there are so many

1285
00:48:18,423 --> 00:48:18,923
strong

1286
00:48:19,300 --> 00:48:20,018
and soon.

1287
00:48:22,251 --> 00:48:24,166
There was the sidewalk crack shaped like a

1288
00:48:24,166 --> 00:48:26,160
y and the other 1 that lifted the

1289
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:27,675
concrete up from the dirt floor.

1290
00:48:28,407 --> 00:48:31,434
Frequently, her s step had made her trip

1291
00:48:31,434 --> 00:48:32,150
over that 1.

1292
00:48:32,867 --> 00:48:35,416
Skate would go well over the sidewalk. Old

1293
00:48:35,416 --> 00:48:36,690
as it was and smooth.

1294
00:48:37,343 --> 00:48:39,976
It made the wheels gl glide evenly with

1295
00:48:39,976 --> 00:48:40,934
a mild were.

1296
00:48:41,971 --> 00:48:44,365
The newly paved locks were bumpy and uncomfortable.

1297
00:48:44,699 --> 00:48:46,617
And the sound of skate wheels on new

1298
00:48:46,617 --> 00:48:47,736
walks was grating.

1299
00:48:49,335 --> 00:48:51,412
These and other ina intimate things she saw

1300
00:48:51,412 --> 00:48:53,650
inexperienced. They were real to her. She knew

1301
00:48:53,650 --> 00:48:53,810
them.

1302
00:48:54,463 --> 00:48:56,134
They were the codes and touchstone touchdown of

1303
00:48:56,134 --> 00:48:59,793
the world capable of translation and possession.

1304
00:49:00,747 --> 00:49:02,895
She owned the crack that made her stumble.

1305
00:49:03,230 --> 00:49:05,390
She owned the clumps of Dan alliance whose

1306
00:49:05,390 --> 00:49:08,510
heads last fall, she had blown away, whose

1307
00:49:08,510 --> 00:49:10,909
yellow heads this fall she peered into.

1308
00:49:11,561 --> 00:49:13,628
And owning them made her part of the

1309
00:49:13,628 --> 00:49:16,488
world and the world a part of her.

1310
00:49:22,064 --> 00:49:23,970
And she goes and buys the candy. Yeah.

1311
00:49:24,129 --> 00:49:27,251
Yeah. It when experiences of of of racist

1312
00:49:28,021 --> 00:49:29,475
moment of of

1313
00:49:29,865 --> 00:49:30,905
of her world. Right?

1314
00:49:31,625 --> 00:49:34,825
Like, that see that moment of the world

1315
00:49:34,825 --> 00:49:35,865
that she was a part of the world

1316
00:49:35,865 --> 00:49:36,825
and the world was part of her.

1317
00:49:37,478 --> 00:49:40,182
Moves directly into a scene where she is

1318
00:49:40,182 --> 00:49:41,693
negated and unseen. Yeah.

1319
00:49:42,330 --> 00:49:42,830
It's

1320
00:49:44,653 --> 00:49:47,047
It's funny because I can remember... I also

1321
00:49:47,047 --> 00:49:48,644
listened to this book and I can remember

1322
00:49:48,644 --> 00:49:50,320
exactly where I was when I read this

1323
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:53,287
passage, and it's interesting because I was having

1324
00:49:53,287 --> 00:49:56,100
a similar experience of being in a place

1325
00:49:57,036 --> 00:49:59,748
of particular, where there were a number of

1326
00:49:59,748 --> 00:50:00,248
things

1327
00:50:00,625 --> 00:50:02,162
that would catch the eye

1328
00:50:02,713 --> 00:50:05,975
like cracks in the sidewalk or. In this

1329
00:50:05,975 --> 00:50:08,998
particular case, the way the trees would he

1330
00:50:08,998 --> 00:50:11,635
up crack in the sidewalk, and in the

1331
00:50:11,635 --> 00:50:12,112
pavement,

1332
00:50:12,588 --> 00:50:15,128
and also, you know, my neighborhood has just

1333
00:50:15,128 --> 00:50:16,025
a lot of

1334
00:50:17,272 --> 00:50:17,772
landscaping,

1335
00:50:19,193 --> 00:50:20,970
lot of plants, a lot of

1336
00:50:21,826 --> 00:50:24,378
both natural and unnatural, and so seeing all

1337
00:50:24,378 --> 00:50:26,053
the, you know, like, the honey suck or

1338
00:50:26,053 --> 00:50:27,568
the Ivy poking through the fence.

1339
00:50:29,574 --> 00:50:31,715
Yeah. I mean, you know, I I kind

1340
00:50:31,715 --> 00:50:33,697
of lost Us. You gave me an assignment,

1341
00:50:33,935 --> 00:50:36,076
but I kind of just, like, lost track

1342
00:50:36,076 --> 00:50:36,735
of it

1343
00:50:37,359 --> 00:50:40,846
in my immersion you're reading. Right now, other

1344
00:50:40,846 --> 00:50:41,559
than to say,

1345
00:50:42,193 --> 00:50:42,772
I think

1346
00:50:43,302 --> 00:50:43,802
there's

1347
00:50:44,428 --> 00:50:46,898
Again, it's the country song always doing 1

1348
00:50:46,898 --> 00:50:49,208
thing. And you already said it that she

1349
00:50:49,208 --> 00:50:50,881
belongs the world and the world belongs to

1350
00:50:50,881 --> 00:50:54,104
her. These are very, very specific details that

1351
00:50:54,321 --> 00:50:56,869
you any writer could observe and put into

1352
00:50:56,869 --> 00:50:57,348
a book.

1353
00:50:57,985 --> 00:50:58,485
But

1354
00:51:00,548 --> 00:51:02,950
They feel very real. They feel very tactile.

1355
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:04,614
They're described poetic

1356
00:51:04,986 --> 00:51:06,041
they're described vividly

1357
00:51:06,492 --> 00:51:07,547
thought companies

1358
00:51:07,934 --> 00:51:09,681
essential description. So not only do we see

1359
00:51:09,681 --> 00:51:11,429
what the Dan alliance look like. We also

1360
00:51:11,429 --> 00:51:12,780
wonder why their weeds.

1361
00:51:13,336 --> 00:51:16,214
We also imagine the yellow and the green.

1362
00:51:16,772 --> 00:51:19,083
We think about the heads versus the the

1363
00:51:19,083 --> 00:51:21,871
leaves and what people use various parts for.

1364
00:51:22,508 --> 00:51:24,181
So the specificity of all that,

1365
00:51:25,073 --> 00:51:26,429
But then and also... You know, it's kinda

1366
00:51:26,429 --> 00:51:28,423
feels like choice, just like, wandering down the

1367
00:51:28,423 --> 00:51:30,816
street, observing things, having thoughts. There's a stream

1368
00:51:30,816 --> 00:51:32,969
of consciousness quality too that feels very, very.

1369
00:51:35,699 --> 00:51:37,856
Realistic. And then, yes, as you say, it's

1370
00:51:37,856 --> 00:51:39,076
all bound together

1371
00:51:39,775 --> 00:51:41,373
in a kind of completeness in which she

1372
00:51:41,373 --> 00:51:42,891
is part of the world and she the

1373
00:51:42,891 --> 00:51:44,010
world and the world owns her.

1374
00:51:44,823 --> 00:51:46,017
Yeah. And then it doesn't.

1375
00:51:46,813 --> 00:51:49,780
And right. Yeah. Exactly. It's like, so

1376
00:51:50,872 --> 00:51:53,021
I'm just... I'm amazed at how she pulls

1377
00:51:53,021 --> 00:51:54,135
all of this stuff off.

1378
00:51:54,949 --> 00:51:57,746
In a novel that... Yeah. I have to

1379
00:51:57,826 --> 00:51:59,424
I have to work for it. Like, I

1380
00:51:59,424 --> 00:52:01,342
can't, you know, I can't... This isn't pulling

1381
00:52:01,342 --> 00:52:03,580
a expanse novel off the shelf. And Yep.

1382
00:52:03,994 --> 00:52:06,166
You know, just sinking into the es.

1383
00:52:06,781 --> 00:52:08,635
Like, yeah, this is this is high

1384
00:52:09,568 --> 00:52:09,807
literature,

1385
00:52:10,444 --> 00:52:12,927
but it doesn't read like high literature there

1386
00:52:12,927 --> 00:52:14,833
moments to me that remind me of

1387
00:52:15,628 --> 00:52:17,534
dine back of of mice and men, you

1388
00:52:17,534 --> 00:52:19,440
know, specifically or or the pearl.

1389
00:52:21,203 --> 00:52:22,101
Which are also

1390
00:52:22,556 --> 00:52:25,658
interestingly, sometimes taught in schools and sometimes assigned

1391
00:52:25,658 --> 00:52:27,408
to children even though they're about very adult

1392
00:52:27,408 --> 00:52:30,132
things. Well, that sets up my final question

1393
00:52:30,132 --> 00:52:32,443
for you, which is, is this a young

1394
00:52:32,443 --> 00:52:33,320
adult novel?

1395
00:52:36,284 --> 00:52:37,900
Okay. I'm gonna I'm gonna sort of

1396
00:52:38,596 --> 00:52:40,668
go off of something you said earlier about

1397
00:52:40,668 --> 00:52:41,067
context.

1398
00:52:43,857 --> 00:52:44,357
If

1399
00:52:45,309 --> 00:52:46,289
your parents

1400
00:52:46,829 --> 00:52:47,569
have been

1401
00:52:47,949 --> 00:52:48,449
intensely

1402
00:52:49,869 --> 00:52:52,369
and generously honest with you

1403
00:52:53,069 --> 00:52:54,049
through your

1404
00:52:56,284 --> 00:52:58,605
childhood and early adolescence,

1405
00:52:59,644 --> 00:52:59,885
yes.

1406
00:53:01,405 --> 00:53:01,780
If

1407
00:53:02,296 --> 00:53:04,523
the if not, if you have been... If

1408
00:53:04,523 --> 00:53:06,828
this stuff has been hidden from you, if

1409
00:53:06,828 --> 00:53:10,182
if real conversations about sex and race and

1410
00:53:10,182 --> 00:53:12,641
everything like that have been kept from you.

1411
00:53:14,228 --> 00:53:16,290
This is a novel that is going to

1412
00:53:16,290 --> 00:53:16,790
be

1413
00:53:17,579 --> 00:53:18,079
misinterpreted

1414
00:53:18,458 --> 00:53:20,935
by that audience, and that's what scares me.

1415
00:53:22,373 --> 00:53:25,250
For kids that are prepared effectively for this,

1416
00:53:26,060 --> 00:53:29,420
and given the correct context and talked about,

1417
00:53:30,032 --> 00:53:31,224
you know, if you, like, you would have

1418
00:53:31,224 --> 00:53:32,733
to work your way up to it. But,

1419
00:53:32,892 --> 00:53:33,051
yeah,

1420
00:53:33,766 --> 00:53:34,266
I

1421
00:53:34,639 --> 00:53:35,139
think

1422
00:53:36,244 --> 00:53:38,573
I think this is an adult novel that

1423
00:53:38,630 --> 00:53:41,038
can be taught at the young adult level

1424
00:53:41,651 --> 00:53:42,151
if

1425
00:53:42,606 --> 00:53:43,106
you

1426
00:53:44,355 --> 00:53:45,173
if you have

1427
00:53:45,565 --> 00:53:47,105
kids that have been prepared adequately.

1428
00:53:48,125 --> 00:53:50,125
And I minnesota that's my long answer of

1429
00:53:50,125 --> 00:53:50,525
saying,

1430
00:53:51,324 --> 00:53:53,964
I think no. There's the world part and

1431
00:53:53,964 --> 00:53:56,300
there's also the vocabulary. Right? Yeah. That Yeah.

1432
00:53:56,460 --> 00:53:58,140
It's also a challenging... I mean, it's a

1433
00:53:58,140 --> 00:54:00,780
travel novel for me, and I am... Totally.

1434
00:54:01,260 --> 00:54:02,539
1 of, I would say,

1435
00:54:03,353 --> 00:54:05,183
you know, I'm pretty good at reading English

1436
00:54:05,183 --> 00:54:07,728
language novels. Oh, But That's not to say.

1437
00:54:07,887 --> 00:54:09,399
I could see teaching this in twelfth grade,

1438
00:54:09,876 --> 00:54:13,182
ap English with kids who were avid

1439
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:14,219
enthusiastic

1440
00:54:15,155 --> 00:54:16,351
readers well paced.

1441
00:54:17,547 --> 00:54:19,701
You know, And I I would also... I

1442
00:54:19,701 --> 00:54:19,860
mean,

1443
00:54:20,512 --> 00:54:22,202
I take your point about

1444
00:54:22,972 --> 00:54:26,463
adults preparing. I could be sympathetic to a

1445
00:54:26,463 --> 00:54:28,820
parent who says, I know that my kid

1446
00:54:29,018 --> 00:54:31,827
need to learn about racism and inc

1447
00:54:32,442 --> 00:54:32,942
and

1448
00:54:33,317 --> 00:54:34,193
domestic abuse.

1449
00:54:34,750 --> 00:54:36,795
But I don't want that to happen at

1450
00:54:36,914 --> 00:54:39,304
school away from me. I would like some

1451
00:54:39,304 --> 00:54:41,137
control over that. I think if I were

1452
00:54:41,137 --> 00:54:42,809
a teacher offering this novel,

1453
00:54:43,686 --> 00:54:45,279
to a high school student. I don't think

1454
00:54:45,359 --> 00:54:46,649
I would offer to a middle school student.

1455
00:54:46,889 --> 00:54:48,245
I would maybe offer it to a high

1456
00:54:48,245 --> 00:54:50,400
school student. I think I would also off...

1457
00:54:50,798 --> 00:54:54,150
I would also offer another alternative novel and

1458
00:54:54,150 --> 00:54:55,302
let The kids

1459
00:54:55,677 --> 00:54:57,665
choose and let the parents know about that

1460
00:54:57,665 --> 00:55:00,050
choice and have some say in it. As

1461
00:55:00,050 --> 00:55:02,436
well, I remember in twelfth... Or eleventh grade,

1462
00:55:02,929 --> 00:55:04,449
we had the choice of either reading the

1463
00:55:04,449 --> 00:55:04,949
awakening

1464
00:55:05,329 --> 00:55:06,789
or Billy Bud

1465
00:55:07,090 --> 00:55:09,329
by Mel. And for the most part,

1466
00:55:10,449 --> 00:55:13,008
all the interesting. Yeah. And neither of them

1467
00:55:13,008 --> 00:55:13,746
have anything

1468
00:55:14,357 --> 00:55:14,857
particular.

1469
00:55:15,309 --> 00:55:15,626
Well,

1470
00:55:16,340 --> 00:55:19,117
it weakening does have some, like, sexual stuff.

1471
00:55:19,276 --> 00:55:21,847
Right? Is like, this is a curriculum that

1472
00:55:21,847 --> 00:55:24,404
is simply pressed for time. That was the

1473
00:55:24,404 --> 00:55:26,402
that was the structure of that choice. I

1474
00:55:26,402 --> 00:55:28,320
think I think it were they're both similar

1475
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:31,121
laying I think probably the awakening was the

1476
00:55:31,121 --> 00:55:33,348
teacher's first choice and Billy Bud was probably

1477
00:55:33,348 --> 00:55:35,416
the, like, if we have any parents out

1478
00:55:35,416 --> 00:55:37,269
there who are socially conservative.

1479
00:55:37,660 --> 00:55:40,140
What's another good work of literature that's about

1480
00:55:40,140 --> 00:55:40,780
the same length?

1481
00:55:42,059 --> 00:55:43,739
Because it's good. Billy bud is good. Oh,

1482
00:55:43,900 --> 00:55:46,114
yeah. I read the awakening and I would

1483
00:55:46,314 --> 00:55:47,512
I would like to say that that was

1484
00:55:47,512 --> 00:55:49,188
the pro feminist in me, and I think

1485
00:55:49,188 --> 00:55:51,103
that's partially true, but I also think that

1486
00:55:51,183 --> 00:55:53,280
I was aware that displaying

1487
00:55:54,456 --> 00:55:54,956
that

1488
00:55:55,509 --> 00:55:57,343
most of the boys chose to read Billy

1489
00:55:57,422 --> 00:55:59,177
Bud, and I think I was aware that

1490
00:55:59,177 --> 00:56:01,171
choosing to read the more feminist novel would

1491
00:56:01,171 --> 00:56:02,686
be kind of sexy to a certain type

1492
00:56:02,686 --> 00:56:04,735
of high school girl too. So

1493
00:56:05,493 --> 00:56:06,371
Know. So

1494
00:56:06,930 --> 00:56:08,628
so, young straight

1495
00:56:09,006 --> 00:56:09,724
men out there,

1496
00:56:10,523 --> 00:56:11,641
feminism can be sexy.

1497
00:56:12,838 --> 00:56:13,716
That's your Psa.

1498
00:56:14,768 --> 00:56:16,678
Yeah. I think that's a great place to

1499
00:56:16,678 --> 00:56:18,110
wrap up our discussion.

1500
00:56:19,463 --> 00:56:21,134
Right. Well, let's be... I was gonna have...

1501
00:56:21,373 --> 00:56:23,442
I I was... I really wanted to dive

1502
00:56:23,442 --> 00:56:26,355
into the... A polarity of, like, a socially

1503
00:56:26,414 --> 00:56:28,655
conservative family pointing most of their boys in

1504
00:56:28,655 --> 00:56:29,775
the direction of Billy Buds,

1505
00:56:30,335 --> 00:56:32,981
which I like, and, like, Mel would be

1506
00:56:32,981 --> 00:56:35,045
happy about that. Yeah. It's like a little

1507
00:56:35,045 --> 00:56:37,188
home erratic. Right? But not exclusive.

1508
00:56:37,664 --> 00:56:38,560
That exactly.

1509
00:56:39,171 --> 00:56:40,933
Well, I mean, Mel. Don't know it. But,

1510
00:56:41,092 --> 00:56:42,765
like, it's not gonna be it's not explicit,

1511
00:56:42,925 --> 00:56:45,792
But oh, yeah. I mean, it's it's it's

1512
00:56:45,792 --> 00:56:46,748
hot. Yeah.

1513
00:56:48,182 --> 00:56:49,775
Alright. Well, let's go into some trivia. I

1514
00:56:49,775 --> 00:56:51,881
don't remember, I just remember Billy bud is

1515
00:56:52,097 --> 00:56:54,644
impressed, and then he's falsely accused of something

1516
00:56:54,644 --> 00:56:56,554
that was my recollection. But, Yeah. I mean,

1517
00:56:56,952 --> 00:56:58,941
and every sentence of mel reads like poetry.

1518
00:56:59,432 --> 00:57:00,939
I I think he's 1 of our most

1519
00:57:00,939 --> 00:57:01,439
poetic

1520
00:57:01,812 --> 00:57:04,192
novel ever. I even once I tricked a

1521
00:57:04,192 --> 00:57:07,285
poet, a real poet 1 time by rewriting.

1522
00:57:07,538 --> 00:57:09,129
Something from white jacket, which is 1 of

1523
00:57:09,129 --> 00:57:11,753
his lesser novels, and I put it in

1524
00:57:11,753 --> 00:57:11,912
verse.

1525
00:57:13,423 --> 00:57:14,934
And I put it next to, like, I

1526
00:57:14,934 --> 00:57:16,524
don't know, like a seam poem, and I

1527
00:57:16,524 --> 00:57:17,081
was like, you know,

1528
00:57:18,292 --> 00:57:20,228
let's talk about these 2 poems, and nobody

1529
00:57:20,287 --> 00:57:22,602
picked up that that Mel was not... You

1530
00:57:22,602 --> 00:57:24,198
know, I just reform it. That's great. You

1531
00:57:24,198 --> 00:57:26,526
know, That's wonderful. That we go. Yeah. Was

1532
00:57:26,526 --> 00:57:27,641
kinda of... It was kind of a dirty

1533
00:57:27,641 --> 00:57:28,119
trick, But

1534
00:57:29,554 --> 00:57:30,908
I think you go first this time for

1535
00:57:30,908 --> 00:57:32,342
sure Yeah. Okay. Alright.

1536
00:57:33,696 --> 00:57:35,050
So in 19 98,

1537
00:57:36,583 --> 00:57:40,418
Oprah Winfrey discovers beloved. Mh Mh. And is

1538
00:57:40,418 --> 00:57:42,256
desperate to get in contact with Tony morrison.

1539
00:57:42,655 --> 00:57:42,815
Okay.

1540
00:57:43,628 --> 00:57:46,728
And cannot because Tony Morrison number is not

1541
00:57:46,728 --> 00:57:47,364
in the phone book.

1542
00:57:50,146 --> 00:57:51,816
I have a follow up detail at the

1543
00:57:51,816 --> 00:57:53,344
end of this question. So not gonna make

1544
00:57:53,344 --> 00:57:55,184
you ask that. But Well, I won't say,

1545
00:57:55,264 --> 00:57:58,304
like, Oprah winfrey probably has resources beyond the

1546
00:57:58,304 --> 00:58:00,144
phone book for this sort of thing. But

1547
00:58:00,144 --> 00:58:02,977
and Which of the following resources

1548
00:58:03,596 --> 00:58:04,815
did she tap

1549
00:58:05,594 --> 00:58:08,311
to in fact, get in contact Okay. With

1550
00:58:08,391 --> 00:58:09,670
Tony Morris. Okay. Hey.

1551
00:58:10,563 --> 00:58:11,751
The town library.

1552
00:58:13,257 --> 00:58:13,574
B,

1553
00:58:14,525 --> 00:58:16,135
the local fire department

1554
00:58:16,983 --> 00:58:17,617
or c,

1555
00:58:19,624 --> 00:58:23,155
The faculty of Morrison Alma Armada, Howard University,

1556
00:58:24,329 --> 00:58:26,084
or d Be wolf Sc.

1557
00:58:29,927 --> 00:58:30,246
Well,

1558
00:58:31,682 --> 00:58:34,713
interestingly, my question for you also deals with

1559
00:58:34,793 --> 00:58:37,106
Howard University. I will say that the Howard

1560
00:58:37,186 --> 00:58:39,026
Universe city network is quite strong.

1561
00:58:40,612 --> 00:58:41,325
Yeah. Absolutely.

1562
00:58:42,356 --> 00:58:44,179
Yeah. Because it's not a very large school.

1563
00:58:44,417 --> 00:58:46,259
I mean, you know, like, I know some

1564
00:58:46,259 --> 00:58:46,759
people

1565
00:58:47,372 --> 00:58:49,997
who are... Yeah. So for example, like Ton

1566
00:58:50,077 --> 00:58:51,986
Coat, like as part of that network. And,

1567
00:58:52,145 --> 00:58:53,271
like that would be it. That would be

1568
00:58:53,271 --> 00:58:55,594
a legit way to reach out to Ton

1569
00:58:55,649 --> 00:58:56,045
coast. Right.

1570
00:58:57,314 --> 00:58:58,686
If you happen to know somebody

1571
00:58:59,058 --> 00:59:01,929
who is in their late forties who also

1572
00:59:01,929 --> 00:59:03,356
went to Howard. They probably know each other.

1573
00:59:05,181 --> 00:59:07,561
That said, I really want to be the

1574
00:59:07,561 --> 00:59:09,730
town library. So I'm gonna go with the

1575
00:59:09,730 --> 00:59:10,449
town library.

1576
00:59:11,489 --> 00:59:13,250
It was the local fire department.

1577
00:59:13,889 --> 00:59:15,889
You to get it. I know. You were

1578
00:59:15,889 --> 00:59:16,049
better.

1579
00:59:16,690 --> 00:59:17,409
And the message,

1580
00:59:18,141 --> 00:59:19,039
that Oprah

1581
00:59:19,572 --> 00:59:21,082
had the fire department,

1582
00:59:21,638 --> 00:59:25,078
drive out to Tony Morrison house and deliver

1583
00:59:25,470 --> 00:59:25,970
was

1584
00:59:26,510 --> 00:59:28,190
Tell Tony Oprah called.

1585
00:59:29,869 --> 00:59:31,869
And with a number I hope? Yes. With

1586
00:59:31,869 --> 00:59:35,019
a number and apparently a shocked toni morrison

1587
00:59:35,956 --> 00:59:37,631
returned to the call that very evening.

1588
00:59:38,509 --> 00:59:39,546
So what is power?

1589
00:59:40,439 --> 00:59:42,516
Oprah is powell. Oh well, ladies in gentlemen.

1590
00:59:42,756 --> 00:59:44,754
Been no doubt that Oprah is for. Oh,

1591
00:59:44,914 --> 00:59:46,752
yeah. What town was this? Was this Lorraine?

1592
00:59:46,992 --> 00:59:49,003
Oh, yeah it's not in the goddamn story.

1593
00:59:49,480 --> 00:59:51,070
I have everything. That was 1 of my

1594
00:59:51,070 --> 00:59:51,945
questions. I was like,

1595
00:59:52,661 --> 00:59:55,309
where was this? Yeah. I think

1596
00:59:55,779 --> 00:59:57,876
the originating newspaper is a Pittsburgh

1597
00:59:58,334 --> 01:00:00,330
newspaper. Okay. And so I think it is

1598
01:00:00,330 --> 01:00:01,389
somewhere in

1599
01:00:01,847 --> 01:00:04,801
Western Pennsylvania. Yep. But I'm... I I don't

1600
01:00:04,801 --> 01:00:07,286
have more details. Than that. Interesting. Okay. Okay.

1601
01:00:08,639 --> 01:00:11,186
That's great. That's great. I would say, like,

1602
01:00:11,425 --> 01:00:12,880
it is the dream of every novel

1603
01:00:13,827 --> 01:00:15,896
If I were ever novel, I certainly would

1604
01:00:15,896 --> 01:00:18,202
wanna, like, live my fifties and sixties and

1605
01:00:18,202 --> 01:00:20,922
seventies in a town where nobody could find

1606
01:00:20,922 --> 01:00:23,309
me. But the fire department knew where I

1607
01:00:23,309 --> 01:00:26,172
lived, and the local librarian if, you know,

1608
01:00:26,411 --> 01:00:28,174
would also knew where I then could deliver

1609
01:00:28,174 --> 01:00:29,786
a message. And and

1610
01:00:30,715 --> 01:00:33,097
that's that's a great novel life right there.

1611
01:00:33,573 --> 01:00:36,217
Yeah So, my question for you

1612
01:00:37,483 --> 01:00:38,302
Tony Morrison

1613
01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:41,394
went to Howard University in the late forties

1614
01:00:41,394 --> 01:00:42,032
early fifties.

1615
01:00:43,469 --> 01:00:45,465
And she says that even in college, and

1616
01:00:45,465 --> 01:00:47,565
I it wasn't until she went to Howard

1617
01:00:48,015 --> 01:00:49,838
that she observed color.

1618
01:00:51,105 --> 01:00:53,184
As distinguished from racism. I mean, it's dimension

1619
01:00:53,184 --> 01:00:55,498
of racism, but we're not talking about anti

1620
01:00:55,498 --> 01:00:56,317
black racism.

1621
01:00:57,015 --> 01:00:58,313
We're talking about

1622
01:00:58,691 --> 01:01:00,287
within the black community,

1623
01:01:00,686 --> 01:01:02,775
the idea that lighter skin is better than

1624
01:01:02,775 --> 01:01:03,333
darker skin.

1625
01:01:04,689 --> 01:01:07,798
And she first observed that at Howard. And

1626
01:01:07,798 --> 01:01:10,271
she said that in her experience, in her

1627
01:01:10,271 --> 01:01:12,360
life, in 19 49 and 50,

1628
01:01:12,919 --> 01:01:15,951
it was worse in 1 academic department in

1629
01:01:15,951 --> 01:01:18,345
better in another in which she took classes.

1630
01:01:18,758 --> 01:01:20,768
Oh, my goodness. So a

1631
01:01:21,460 --> 01:01:23,153
what. Wait. Wait. The the,

1632
01:01:23,686 --> 01:01:26,722
like, the the experience of color is Okay.

1633
01:01:26,881 --> 01:01:29,188
It was worse not not as in... It

1634
01:01:29,188 --> 01:01:31,360
was in flip flop. It was in reversed

1635
01:01:31,576 --> 01:01:33,963
directions in different department. No It was wasn't

1636
01:01:33,963 --> 01:01:36,606
reversed directions. Okay. And Okay. I think I,

1637
01:01:36,685 --> 01:01:39,337
you know, I think that color, as I

1638
01:01:39,395 --> 01:01:39,793
understand it,

1639
01:01:40,670 --> 01:01:43,355
there is always the presumed hierarchy of

1640
01:01:43,795 --> 01:01:46,355
lighter skin being better, but there's also a

1641
01:01:46,355 --> 01:01:48,675
often a backlash against that as we saw

1642
01:01:48,675 --> 01:01:51,074
with the character Marlene in this book where

1643
01:01:51,074 --> 01:01:53,880
people are jealous and therefore, sometimes can be

1644
01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:56,208
mean of somebody who's light skinned too. But

1645
01:01:56,344 --> 01:01:59,047
generally, the the hierarchy is assumed to dominate.

1646
01:01:59,286 --> 01:02:01,470
So it's... Yeah. So these symptoms of color

1647
01:02:01,527 --> 01:02:03,753
were worse in 1 department and better in

1648
01:02:03,753 --> 01:02:05,661
another department. Right. Right. Okay. So got it.

1649
01:02:05,900 --> 01:02:08,070
A was it that it was worse

1650
01:02:08,539 --> 01:02:10,792
in the history department and better

1651
01:02:11,169 --> 01:02:12,524
in the English department.

1652
01:02:14,277 --> 01:02:17,879
B was it worse in the English department

1653
01:02:17,879 --> 01:02:20,452
and better in the drama department

1654
01:02:21,227 --> 01:02:24,336
or c was it worse in the drama

1655
01:02:24,336 --> 01:02:27,054
department and better in the history department.

1656
01:02:28,723 --> 01:02:31,743
I like this little triple kit planet system

1657
01:02:31,743 --> 01:02:34,862
that you've drawn with users. The 3 of

1658
01:02:34,862 --> 01:02:35,761
our majors.

1659
01:02:36,936 --> 01:02:37,176
Yeah.

1660
01:02:40,447 --> 01:02:40,947
God.

1661
01:02:42,378 --> 01:02:42,617
Okay.

1662
01:02:43,415 --> 01:02:44,932
And you might be able to puzzle... Mean

1663
01:02:45,091 --> 01:02:46,369
I actually feel like this is 1 you

1664
01:02:46,369 --> 01:02:47,805
might be able to puzzle out too. Like,

1665
01:02:47,965 --> 01:02:49,401
it's not 1 that you would simply have

1666
01:02:49,401 --> 01:02:50,094
to have known

1667
01:02:50,534 --> 01:02:52,210
anecdote. I think there are clues.

1668
01:02:52,769 --> 01:02:54,307
I strongly believe

1669
01:02:54,844 --> 01:02:55,903
that it will

1670
01:02:56,920 --> 01:02:57,420
be

1671
01:03:00,446 --> 01:03:01,004
I can like,

1672
01:03:03,952 --> 01:03:06,023
I could hear the problems of my own

1673
01:03:06,023 --> 01:03:06,501
reasoning.

1674
01:03:07,710 --> 01:03:10,100
Because I very often reason myself out of

1675
01:03:10,100 --> 01:03:10,600
the

1676
01:03:11,614 --> 01:03:13,526
correct answer, but I'm not gonna do the

1677
01:03:13,526 --> 01:03:14,960
thing where then I decide to dive the

1678
01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:17,284
other way because this forward has always hit

1679
01:03:17,284 --> 01:03:18,954
the ball in that direction... Yeah, We're not

1680
01:03:18,954 --> 01:03:21,260
gonna do that. I think that no matter

1681
01:03:21,260 --> 01:03:22,715
what the correct answer

1682
01:03:24,065 --> 01:03:26,305
the worst symptoms are either gonna be English

1683
01:03:26,305 --> 01:03:26,864
or drama.

1684
01:03:28,144 --> 01:03:30,965
And so I am going to go with

1685
01:03:31,184 --> 01:03:32,325
the answer

1686
01:03:32,719 --> 01:03:35,357
where the color was worst in the drama

1687
01:03:35,357 --> 01:03:37,215
department, which I believe was

1688
01:03:37,674 --> 01:03:40,472
version c. Worse in the drama department better

1689
01:03:40,472 --> 01:03:42,230
in the history... The history department. Yes.

1690
01:03:43,358 --> 01:03:46,771
Was b racing in English department and better

1691
01:03:46,771 --> 01:03:50,130
in the drama department. Oh, according that was

1692
01:03:50,185 --> 01:03:51,241
to Tony Morrison.

1693
01:03:52,108 --> 01:03:53,702
In 19 49,

1694
01:03:54,659 --> 01:03:57,608
Howard University is a wonderful place. Today,

1695
01:03:58,485 --> 01:04:00,101
probably was then to

1696
01:04:01,206 --> 01:04:04,065
But, yes, According Tony Morrison worse in the

1697
01:04:04,303 --> 01:04:05,812
English department better in the drama of the

1698
01:04:05,812 --> 01:04:07,559
department. So I do get, like, half a

1699
01:04:07,559 --> 01:04:11,081
ding. Yeah. Because I did correctly articulate that

1700
01:04:11,081 --> 01:04:13,713
my majors are the worst majors. Yeah. You

1701
01:04:13,713 --> 01:04:15,228
get half ding, but a whole buzz.

1702
01:04:15,866 --> 01:04:16,026
Yeah.

1703
01:04:18,750 --> 01:04:20,812
I can't wait. That sounds like fun. I

1704
01:04:20,812 --> 01:04:22,398
mean, you know, I think part of, if

1705
01:04:22,398 --> 01:04:25,016
you've ever noticed that I have occasionally, I

1706
01:04:25,016 --> 01:04:28,295
might slag academic English departments on the show

1707
01:04:28,295 --> 01:04:30,285
from time to time. You might... That might

1708
01:04:30,285 --> 01:04:32,912
be 1 clue. Yeah. That was 1III

1709
01:04:32,912 --> 01:04:33,412
thought

1710
01:04:33,802 --> 01:04:35,473
I just couldn't... I I knew that was

1711
01:04:35,473 --> 01:04:35,973
possibility,

1712
01:04:36,507 --> 01:04:37,962
but given the time

1713
01:04:38,655 --> 01:04:40,166
and the sort of, like,

1714
01:04:41,056 --> 01:04:41,556
generally

1715
01:04:42,088 --> 01:04:42,588
prevailing

1716
01:04:43,042 --> 01:04:43,542
winds

1717
01:04:43,916 --> 01:04:45,132
of drama apartments

1718
01:04:45,585 --> 01:04:47,890
that, like, it is pretty much better to

1719
01:04:47,890 --> 01:04:50,629
look like the prevailing attractive thing

1720
01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:53,144
that that's what that was my reasoning in

1721
01:04:53,144 --> 01:04:55,524
there. But I 100 percent wanted to take

1722
01:04:55,603 --> 01:04:56,103
B

1723
01:04:56,476 --> 01:04:59,675
because when I asked my old boss at

1724
01:04:59,835 --> 01:05:01,271
Putnam, Emily Jones,

1725
01:05:02,228 --> 01:05:04,862
what the English department at Cat Gable in

1726
01:05:05,021 --> 01:05:05,660
Portland was like?

1727
01:05:06,628 --> 01:05:08,614
She said, without missing a beat,

1728
01:05:09,250 --> 01:05:10,918
oh, they're like a herd of Llama.

1729
01:05:11,871 --> 01:05:13,380
And I was like, what?

1730
01:05:14,731 --> 01:05:16,597
That she was like, if they're

1731
01:05:17,372 --> 01:05:19,840
alone, they are... If they are alone and

1732
01:05:19,840 --> 01:05:21,774
enclosed, they are largely harmless

1733
01:05:22,230 --> 01:05:23,902
if they are together and out in the

1734
01:05:23,902 --> 01:05:24,402
open

1735
01:05:24,793 --> 01:05:26,856
they will destroy the countryside. No.

1736
01:05:27,411 --> 01:05:31,005
Well, my observation is even though I

1737
01:05:31,616 --> 01:05:32,513
I love

1738
01:05:33,378 --> 01:05:36,569
Again, and have had wonderful experiences with English

1739
01:05:36,569 --> 01:05:39,121
professors alone, and I love the teaching of

1740
01:05:39,201 --> 01:05:40,876
English, and I even like the workshop,

1741
01:05:43,521 --> 01:05:45,927
I find that there's a lot of insecurity

1742
01:05:45,983 --> 01:05:48,208
in English departments and it kinda circles back

1743
01:05:48,208 --> 01:05:50,273
to that David Letterman, that quality of, like,

1744
01:05:50,432 --> 01:05:52,360
we must be the 1 with the right

1745
01:05:52,360 --> 01:05:54,440
attitude about this book. Yep. And according to

1746
01:05:54,519 --> 01:05:56,199
Tony Morrison, and I buy this,

1747
01:05:56,920 --> 01:05:59,375
it all that mattered was... Could you perform

1748
01:05:59,494 --> 01:06:01,324
You know. Yeah. And I do think that

1749
01:06:01,324 --> 01:06:03,391
theater has a kind of objectivity to it

1750
01:06:03,391 --> 01:06:04,744
because you know when a show works and

1751
01:06:04,744 --> 01:06:06,389
you know when it doesn't. If you

1752
01:06:06,746 --> 01:06:08,888
And, you know, sure, like, you might prefer

1753
01:06:08,888 --> 01:06:11,030
someone's performance more than I do, but you

1754
01:06:11,030 --> 01:06:13,251
can generally tell if the show works if

1755
01:06:13,251 --> 01:06:15,962
the audience likes it. And so her claim

1756
01:06:15,962 --> 01:06:17,785
was that in the English department, she sent

1757
01:06:17,785 --> 01:06:19,688
color and in the drama department, she said

1758
01:06:19,688 --> 01:06:21,908
all that mattered was, you know, could you

1759
01:06:21,908 --> 01:06:23,988
perform? And part of the reason I thought

1760
01:06:23,988 --> 01:06:25,657
you might guess it is because you noted

1761
01:06:25,657 --> 01:06:27,326
she's a good reader because she performs her

1762
01:06:27,326 --> 01:06:28,438
own audiobook too.

1763
01:06:29,153 --> 01:06:31,962
And I owe that is so. So I

1764
01:06:31,962 --> 01:06:32,622
thought that

1765
01:06:33,161 --> 01:06:35,239
my sense is she's partly, she's a good

1766
01:06:35,239 --> 01:06:36,298
reader because

1767
01:06:36,677 --> 01:06:38,835
reading a book is a kind of dramatic

1768
01:06:38,835 --> 01:06:40,448
act she has background in that.

1769
01:06:41,487 --> 01:06:43,565
Chris Bag. Will you read the blue eye

1770
01:06:43,565 --> 01:06:43,724
again?

1771
01:06:44,763 --> 01:06:47,740
Yeah. Yeah. I will. I am

1772
01:06:48,454 --> 01:06:49,728
I am gonna read this again. I thought

1773
01:06:49,728 --> 01:06:50,445
it was amazing.

1774
01:06:51,162 --> 01:06:52,198
I'll say that,

1775
01:06:53,313 --> 01:06:54,747
I probably won't because I feel like I

1776
01:06:54,747 --> 01:06:56,579
got it. I think I probably will read

1777
01:06:56,659 --> 01:06:57,478
Song Solomon

1778
01:06:57,949 --> 01:06:59,469
Yeah, which I have not read. Yeah. I'm

1779
01:06:59,469 --> 01:07:01,469
gonna... And and I gonna probably redo 01:11

1780
01:07:01,469 --> 01:07:03,309
more again. Yeah. But I kinda feel like,

1781
01:07:03,469 --> 01:07:05,070
you know what? I I think I ingested

1782
01:07:05,070 --> 01:07:06,683
this. I think I got it. And I

1783
01:07:06,683 --> 01:07:08,681
actually think that even though it's amazing, I

1784
01:07:08,681 --> 01:07:10,678
don't think it's our best work. And so

1785
01:07:10,838 --> 01:07:12,836
I will certainly read... I've never read song

1786
01:07:12,836 --> 01:07:14,841
of Solomon, and it's been over 20 years

1787
01:07:14,841 --> 01:07:16,427
since I've read beloved. So I think both

1788
01:07:16,427 --> 01:07:18,648
of those are due due to tomorrow. When

1789
01:07:18,648 --> 01:07:21,108
you when you get around to those hitting

1790
01:07:21,108 --> 01:07:23,513
your bedside tape. Bowl, let me know, and

1791
01:07:23,513 --> 01:07:25,911
let's, like c read them, and then they

1792
01:07:25,911 --> 01:07:27,689
will probably come back as episodes

1793
01:07:28,068 --> 01:07:30,066
now. Had a podcast where we read them

1794
01:07:30,066 --> 01:07:30,945
and talked about them.

1795
01:07:32,235 --> 01:07:34,061
We are gonna be reading Margaret at woods.

1796
01:07:34,219 --> 01:07:36,680
The hand tale, the first half, roughly,

1797
01:07:37,235 --> 01:07:40,194
I wanna say they're something like 48 chapters,

1798
01:07:40,434 --> 01:07:42,514
so about 25 chapters. Just do the math,

1799
01:07:42,674 --> 01:07:44,994
count chapters divide by 2. You're smart.

1800
01:07:46,594 --> 01:07:47,394
Another band book.

1801
01:07:49,878 --> 01:07:51,310
Oh, wait. I'll wait for you to finish

1802
01:07:51,310 --> 01:07:51,469
this.

1803
01:07:53,936 --> 01:07:55,105
From Brian. And

1804
01:07:55,624 --> 01:07:57,222
until then, you should know that upper middle

1805
01:07:57,222 --> 01:07:59,298
brow is a small point production. Chris Bag

1806
01:07:59,298 --> 01:08:01,615
and Jesse Dukes are the upstairs, ladies of

1807
01:08:01,615 --> 01:08:04,584
the night. Music by Ben Page music by

1808
01:08:04,744 --> 01:08:06,181
Ben Paycheck and Jesse Dukes,

1809
01:08:06,819 --> 01:08:09,373
design and website by Chris Bag. You can

1810
01:08:09,373 --> 01:08:11,025
learn more about us and find our

1811
01:08:11,541 --> 01:08:13,527
you can learn more about. You can learn

1812
01:08:13,527 --> 01:08:15,434
more about us and find our listener survey

1813
01:08:15,434 --> 01:08:18,947
at upper middle brow dot com. Please and

1814
01:08:18,947 --> 01:08:21,894
please review us in your podcast app, so

1815
01:08:21,894 --> 01:08:23,885
other people can find the show and so

1816
01:08:23,965 --> 01:08:25,000
I can learn how to talk.

1817
01:08:25,877 --> 01:08:26,377
Lisa.

1818
01:08:27,565 --> 01:08:28,765
I can barely talk.

1819
01:08:29,725 --> 01:08:31,805
That was that was like Miles Davis right

1820
01:08:31,805 --> 01:08:33,565
there. It's like play a bad note keep

1821
01:08:33,565 --> 01:08:33,885
playing it.

1822
01:08:34,858 --> 01:08:35,755
And unfortunately,

1823
01:08:36,608 --> 01:08:39,153
your mouth is not Miles Davis as Trumpet

1824
01:08:39,153 --> 01:08:39,788
at the moment,

1825
01:08:40,425 --> 01:08:41,936
You, after have to rely on my wits.

1826
01:08:43,542 --> 01:08:45,313
Alright. Chris Bag. Let's hear that

1827
01:08:45,845 --> 01:08:48,149
Bar tone read the reminder. Here it comes.

1828
01:08:48,387 --> 01:08:50,850
Ladies and gentlemen, all the way from Bend

1829
01:08:50,929 --> 01:08:51,327
Oregon.

1830
01:08:51,899 --> 01:08:53,097
Christopher Night bag.

1831
01:08:53,737 --> 01:08:55,414
As a reminder, Jesse and I are both

1832
01:08:55,414 --> 01:08:58,131
writers and others and can hear cancer.

1833
01:08:59,979 --> 01:09:01,963
As a reminder, Jesse and I are both

1834
01:09:01,963 --> 01:09:04,105
writers and editors and can help you with

1835
01:09:04,105 --> 01:09:07,139
your writing podcasting or editing project. You can

1836
01:09:07,139 --> 01:09:09,693
see some of our portfolios and learn more

1837
01:09:09,693 --> 01:09:13,284
at our respective and un creatively named websites

1838
01:09:13,284 --> 01:09:14,981
chris bag dot com and

1839
01:09:15,773 --> 01:09:17,764
jesse duke dot com. Thank you so much,

1840
01:09:17,924 --> 01:09:19,438
Jesse, and back to you.

1841
01:09:20,154 --> 01:09:22,704
See you on the podcast next time, everybody.

1842
01:09:23,501 --> 01:09:24,399
Have a lovely

1843
01:09:25,270 --> 01:09:27,670
night or day, wherever we may be out

1844
01:09:27,670 --> 01:09:29,350
there in pod world.