As synchronization programs,
great when they work,
challenging
when something happens to cause it to not
be as you blend.
What do we do when mistakes are made?
We'll find out today on Bo Science with
Bc. I'm Brad White joined today by Doctor.
Bob Larson. He's a thorough
here at Kansas State University.
Good morning, Bob. Good morning. So we've got
an opportunity here to talk about
times we've messed up in the past
and how we can learn from our mistakes
and there there's a really nice paper
that summarizes, and and I like this because
as a veterinarian and you work with your
clients, you're doing enough synchronization programs,
at some point, something's gonna get messed up.
Let's maybe describe this paper and then we'll
jump in and talk about what do we
do different? You betcha. So this was a
paper published in, clinical theory
by,
in 20 23,
by Jessica K. And so this was a
a veterinarian. She's she's a reproductive specialist at
at Auburn University.
She's actually a case state grad. We had
her in class a few years ago now.
Ago. Yep. But she's gone on for additional
training, and has really become you know, 1
of the young, I'm still gonna call our
young
leaders in some reproduction technology and and teaching.
There at Auburn. And so she did a
really nice job. She and her c author,
Ama horn did a really nice job pulling
together,
is a practical question of,
synchronization protocols can be a little bit complex,
and and they timing is important in those
protocols
to set cattle up for a lot of
times we're talking about a timed examination or
AAA
timing or breeding by appointment.
And so mistakes happen. We're dealing with humans,
we're with people, and then just you know,
And some of these protocols are pretty darn
complex. Yep. Yep. Right. There's days and times
and multiple different drugs. You're using, you know,
2 or 3 different drugs and very pacific
times, it's possible to switch the drugs. It's
possible to to miss. You know, I... Oh,
we were supposed to do that yesterday. And
for some reason, it got put on the
calendar for today or tomorrow and how much
does that matter. Those are the types of
questions that a veterinarian
gets for their clients. If if... Again, if
you have any clients... Do you have very
many clients at all that are doing astra
synchronization protocols, you will get that call once
in a. And you get those Yes. Every
year. Every year. Every year. And and so
what I really like about this paper is
the authors did a really nice job of
going through really what are my options. And
they and they gave us 4 options to
do if you...
For some reason, the protocol doesn't go as
planned. And a and again, there's lots of
reasons, there's just errors, there's
you know,
something happens somewhere else on the farming operation
that that just... It just doesn't happen. And
and so we we understand that.
So they did a really nice job of
saying, okay. Really... And they put it into
4 categories. And I'm gonna say
4 with 1 of them kind of being
4 a and 4
but,
the the first 1 is 1 that might
work a lot of times, and that is
to just start over again. So
maybe you...
This would be an example where maybe you
were supposed to give,
GRH.
Gonna t releasing hormone on a certain day,
and you make... You messed up the bottles,
and you gave pros land out on the
first day. 1 of the things you can
do is just kinda wait a few days
and re, you know,
restart the protocol and start with what you
were supposed to do on day 1. Now,
the disadvantage of that is,
it it moves all my timing back. You
know? So if I move back a week
or 2 weeks or something like that. Moved
everything back, and that may have been 1
of the main reasons I wanted to synchronize
was to, you know, get that first breeding
in on a specific date. And so the
veterinarian and the client need to have an
honest conversation about well,
why exactly are you
why why are we doing this synchronization protocol.
What are all in some of the reasons
are to get the breeding season started really
early to kind of front load some of
those cows. Sometimes it's... I really really want
some replacement he
to be born from these Ai pregnancies. There
there's something specific I want from the Ai
cy that I've of selected.
And, you know, for a pure red herd,
it might be, you know, some specific mating
that you want. For a commercial herd, it's
usually about timing,
and, you know, some of the specific things
that I want to get from that Ai
pregnancy. And so
moving it back 2 weeks might be
very doable or it might be a big
problem. And and we need to have that
conversation. Yeah. Could be fine or completely unacceptable.
But but starting over as 1 of your
options, and you and you kinda wait depending
on what the mistake was, will impact the
length of time that you wait. And you
said there were 4 options, So starting over
is the first 1. What's the second option?
Alright. So the second option is what basically
to kinda give up. And and that might
be similar to what we were. So To
put... I didn't put that 1 last.
If I was doing them in order, I
couldn't give up last. I I think it's
because it's a it's a it's a legitimate
option. And again, think about a commercial producer
where they were doing this, so that, you
know, that, you know, they're aiming for maybe
having to start on March 1 or having
to start on March fifteenth or something like
that. And it's it's important to them that
that they get started then.
And
if our... All of our options basically mean
well we're gonna move that Ai breeding later.
That that may not work, and that say,
well, we're gonna gonna kinda scrap
what we've done and turn bowls out and
eat... You know, so now, what are some
of the challenges? Make sure I've got enough
bow power. We're because I was planning on
getting
you know, some of the mating done with
artificial ins contamination.
I need to make sure I've got enough
power. Got the rest breeding season ready to
go. But I think that is a legitimate
option. You know, when we talk about these
4 options, I think that's a legitimate 1
to. Again, had an honest conversation with the
client
about
what... What's gonna happen? And with my... I
give up
scenario. You mentioned bow power, but also I
have to understand what are the implications of
what I've done to this point? Right. So
for example, if I gave him 1 shot
of plastic land and how many those cows
are gonna be
already synchronized. Yeah. Quite a few. Yeah. And
so
I my bow power needs to be really
ready to go right
when those... That group of animals comes in.
Couple other things that they they brought out
in this paper that I thought was a
good good observation. 1 was kinda the the
earlier in the process,
you know. So if I catch this mistake
early,
that's when restarting might work pretty well. In
in contrast, I I don't identify that I...
Made some mistakes until, like, we're about ready
to start
examination, but this isn't gonna work. That might
be a situation where you just give up.
And so even the timing of when the
mistake
mistake is
identified
influences this decision. And you know, maybe part
of this conversation that you and I are
having is as a veterinarian you get these
phone calls. Well, it's not a
1 size fits all answer? You know, I
I need to talk to the producer. What
exactly went wrong. Where are we in the
product? Call, and what are your goals? Because
those are gonna influence
the choices that I make. But restarting,
particularly if I discover it early, It's not
gonna be that much of a delay. Let's
just restart it. Great option.
Didn't discover it till late.
I'm really kinda worried that that
it would be a really poor performance if
we went ahead.
That may be a time to just give
up and say, we'll do this next year.
K. So start over, give up what's your
third option? The third 1 is another 1
that that requires some knowledge of
synchronization protocols and really what are out there.
But that is basically
to transfer what you were doing to a
different protocol.
And so,
that might mean, just changing the timing
of the other parts of the protocol, so
maybe leave the progesterone
in place longer,
changing the timing of the,
the pros plan and injection, those types of
things. So, basically, you you're just converting
the protocol that I planned to a different
known and proven protocol.
And and again,
that can work if if everything's lined up
just right. And and so... But it does
take some knowledge of those protocols
And you, I think I've said on some
other
podcasts that 1 of my sources for this
is the beef reproduction task force. They have
a,
website. They do a really good job. They
do a great job of, kind of laying
out
in a picture format,
the different protocols, and they have even some,
online tools that you can put in, you
know, dates when you want to breed and
the protocol you wanna use. And so
the beef reproduction task force
website is a great place
to
kinda refresh, you know, So if I'm a
veterinarian and I get this call And my...
1 of my questions is, well, can I
just convert what they've done so far into
a different protocol? I'm probably gonna have to
look that up.
And and look and see what's really out
there. But that that... If it works, that's
a really good option.
K. So. And which is similar to kind
of the last option, which is to modify.
Yeah. Now the last 1, the modification and...
A lot of times when I'm talking about
modifying a protocol. It is,
you know, say, a protocol might be that
you're going to leave a cedar in for
5 days or 7 days, and I just
leave it in a little bit longer.
And
I I adjust, you know, when I give
my injection it might be that I I
switched to adding a pros gland and right
at the time I take the cedar out,
which is not typical or or might be
typical, but it wouldn't be for all protocols.
And so you just change some of those
protocols, and it's not and how this is
different than the 1 we just talked about
is, it's not really any of the protocols
on that website that I talked about. It's
kind of a hybrid of a couple of
protocols
and it should work, but it's
probably not gonna work quite as well as
originally intended.
And and that's where, again, some real good
communication with your client because this this the
fourth protocol... The fourth option is,
tweak protocol, make it as good as it
can be given the mistakes you made,
and we're gonna still try to get a
bunch of cow bread Ai.
But 1 thing is you might wanna lower
your expectations.
You might wanna
be ready to turn cleanup bowls in, soon
as the protocols over, you know, so basically,
you're gonna make some adjustments. K? So your
4 options that you've given us for these
different protocols are start over. Give up, switch
the protocol or modify. Yep. Everything falls into
1 of those categories. Yeah. And on the
modify, I kinda said I've got a 4
and A4B.
And and 4 is if you're going to
do some est
detection. In other words, it's not timed ins
contamination gonna detect Asterisk for, you know, 3
or 4 or 5 days and breed, you
know, based on Est.
The reality is you've...
You can mess up the protocol and that
can still work because when I say mess
up a protocol. A lot of times what
I'm saying is for a timed
examination
those cows aren't gonna all ob in as
tied window as I originally planned. If I'm
using
Esther
detection.
It's okay if they spread out over a
few days because I've got the labor in
the facilities and the expertise to to observe
for Est, you know, at least a couple
of times a day, spread and be breeding
over several days
rather than at 1 time point. So 4
a is, you know, just your protocol, but
add
est detection or maybe that was gonna be
your plan anyway. Now we're no longer
tied into having a really tight window for
populations and charge on. The 4 b is...
No. We're we're gonna do
a timed examination. Right?
It just probably won't be as... Not as
high percentage of the cows are gonna o
in the window that I wanted them to.
So these authors and I would agree with
them. Maybe that's not the place to use
really expensive scene. Maybe that's a place where
you turn in cleanup bowls rather than keeping
cleanup bowls out for a few weeks,
so that you can tell the difference between
Ai pregnancies and bull pregnancies just turn the
bulls in,
you know, 12 hours after you've vet finished
your Ai you know, a day, and get
them in there. So because I know there's
still cows coming into heat,
away from that window that I originally planned.
So kind of 4 is well, add a
est
detection. For b is
charge on,
but lower your expectations be prepared for... This
isn't gonna be the best breed I've ever
had. K? So given that we have those
options, and this is a really good paper
explaining them. I'm gonna give you some specific
scenarios. Okay. And you decide
which of those 4 options you want to
do. Okay. Alright? And, luckily, I didn't prepare
you for this. So you could go off
the top of your head. Alright.
Option 1,
I have a group of commercial cows
that I'm planning to do fixed time Ai.
And my rationale is I want them to
continue calvin at the first of the calvin
season, and I'm gonna do a 7 day
c cedar,
7 day c plus cedar, which means I'm
giving G h on day 0, along with
putting in a cedar, day 7 pros landing,
66 hours later. I'll give GRH and a.
That's my plan. That's a pretty common protocol.
Yeah. I call you on day 3, and
I say instead of giving G h on
day 0,
I gave pros landed. Mh. Now you would
recommend I start over, give up, switch protocol
or modify. Well,
honestly, all 4 are on the table, and
they might be right for a certain situation.
This is 1 where,
yeah,
switching protocols might work really well and that
you could switch to a different protocol
where
you do give pros land on the first
day of the cedar
that place the cedar. I just leave the
cedar in for 14 days. Instead of
the the typical 7 days. Now what that
has done is it's dropped my eyes
fixed time Ai back a week. Yeah. So
then I lost a week. Yep. I lost
a week. Is that okay? Is
can I get the the the the ins
inc, they are are a week later?
It is a... And then my cows are
gonna have a week later. And I that's
not necessarily ideal, but how how big a
deal is that. So that is 1 of
the options we could talk about is. We
could just switch to a different protocol.
And
and have pretty good... And I would say
equal
success
is just gonna be a week later. The
other thing we could do is
for a or 4 b in that, if
you had the ability
to
do some sync... Or s detection. Just kinda
charge on with that protocol and do what
you were supposed to do, which is actually
a pros landing at the day you remove
the cedar.
I probably don't have quite as good as
sync. It's not gonna give me that great
timed examination
breed up that I want, but if I'm
doing Est
detection. That'll be fine. I could even charge
ahead and just do the time examination there.
It's just not gonna... I'm not gonna get
my the best
breed up that I would have if I
done the protocol right. So if I was
the veterinarian and then I got that call,
I would want to... Honestly,
I, I refer to have that face to
face conversation with the client and really help
them understand the pluses and minuses of each
of their options.
So
and I think that's a really good point
because all of them are on the table
for each of these. It's not like there's
a singular best fit where I'm gonna give
you a problem year to go, oh, you
have to do this. Right. Alright. Alright. So
let me give you another problem.
I'm going to... I have he that I
would like to breed, and I would really
like to get them bread Ai
because I'm making the genetic lines that I
want. So I am I want them bread
Ai.
Based on your
recommendation, I appreciate recommending this program for me.
I'm gonna do a 14 day cedar,
pros
and timed Ai.
So I put in a cedar on day
0, take it out on day 14,
then we do pros landing on day 30,
GRH and Ai,
couple days later. Yeah.
You told me these he because I put
them together from a couple different sources.
You told me that
I should watch after I took cedar out
and see if any of them how do
they do coming into heat. Right? They should
have a heat afterwards.
I watched pretty closely. I put in for
2 weeks. I took it out. I watched
pretty darn closely,
and I didn't see any of them in
heat. So I called you, and I'm going
what now, Which of my 4, start over,
give up, switch protocol modify.
Alright. Well, this... This this would be 1
where I would need to... First of all,
I'm really glad my client called me because
if they hadn't and it just charged on
with what they were planning to do. It's
not gonna work. It's not gonna Is not
gonna work. He need to audio, need to
show asterisk in order to get pregnant.
And so I On. I'm writing it down.
Yeah. Write that 1 down. And so this
is 1 where,
you gotta really investigate what's going on here.
It. Is
are the he,
I and I'd pal the he. I'd I'd
I'd... I would go in and evaluate those
he.
Had they reach puberty? Is this a good
group to have started this synchronization protocol?
If it's even possible things like, well, We've
got Mg in the feed,
either on purpose or accidentally or whatever. There's
something
not going well.
I am probably going to scrap this 1.
Yeah. I I mean, we're late enough into
this. I'm probably going to scrap it. Although
I will say those other
options are on the table in a given
situation, I might choose 1 of the other
options switched to a different protocol,
restart. Those types of things. But
this is 1... It was discovered late,
and it has some evidence that
this is not a group that that charging
ahead and doing the
protocol as originally planned. That's probably the the
worst option. So we got time for me
to give you 1 more. Okay. I'm ready
for. So this time, I'm doing my he,
and it's it's mostly that I want to
get them synced early
because I'm feeding them in a dry lot,
I'm gonna use Mg.
Instead of instead of going with Cedar. And
I'm gonna use the Mg,
pros and in timed Ai. Alright. And the...
That protocol
requires me to feed Mg for 14 days.
19 days later, give a pros landing, then
breed 3 days later with G at the
time of breeding.
My goal, get them bread early, but I've
started them on feed on Mg, and I
call you 1 weekend,
and I say, this stuff's not working. I've
got He cycling. I see about 5 percent
of them a day cycling in this pen.
What should I do?
Alright. Well, again, I'm really glad that my
client called me because that's not supposed to
happen.
We we shouldn't have animals breaking through showing
Est after they've been on Ng for a
week. Again, we're gonna evaluate what is going
on there.
I might evaluate some of the He just
to see, you know,
exactly what is it that he's seeing.
But this is 1 where... Really, I've got
2 options. Alright, well, actually, I've got all
4 to be honest So gonna narrow down
to. I'm gonna narrow it down to 2
that I would probably lean towards. 1 is,
well, fix the problem.
You know, is the is the feed
wasn't ordered correctly or the mill didn't do
something right, and and it doesn't have the
mg in it that the level that I
want? Is there something wrong with the feeding
mechanisms where I don't have not bunk space
and some animals aren't getting their Mg? Or
aren't getting their feet every day. You know,
try to figure out why,
obviously, these he aren't getting the dose of
Mg that they need on a daily basis.
So figure out why and fix that. But
we're a week late.
So 1 thing I could do is just
extend that instead of Mg for 14 days,
go 21 days. That ideal? No? Assuming I
fixed the problem. Assuming I fixed the problem,
I basically just restart right the day that
I get it fixed. So, hopefully, today or
tomorrow I'll get it fixed and I think
that's a a legitimate option. It might decrease
my breed up a little bit, but I
don't expect it to decrease it tremendously.
So that kinda restart would be on the
table for this 1.
The other 1
is
and this one's, I
I'm pausing.
I could still fix it and
finish off in 14 days rather than 21.
And still go ahead with the protocol,
my pros landing in 33 days after I
started,
and
basically, so I basically finish off the protocol
the way it is after I've fixed the
m mg delivery problem,
and it's kind of into that 4 b.
I'm gonna continue. I'm gonna do what I
was planning to do. I'm not gonna have
quite as good of of successes I would
have, but if my goal is, well, Don't
wanna drop it back a week. I don't
want to delay anything.
We'll we'll charge on and fix it and
fit and just do the protocol on the
days that they had planned.
I'm just probably not getting get quite as
good to breed up as I would have
gotten.
And and again,
so much of this involves
communication and and really understanding the pluses and
minuses each of those
4 options. So common problems
put them in those different solutions, but it's
all based on the context or the situation
where you are. So I really appreciate you
walking us through some of those and I
like the 4 solutions from that article by
Jessica K.
And they said you can either start over,
give up switch protocols or modify, which is
your 4 and 4 b. So appreciate you
sharing with us today, Bob. You bet. Thank
you.