1 00:00:05,144 --> 00:00:08,813 Carbohydrates and energy. Important for growth, important for 2 00:00:08,813 --> 00:00:09,984 gain, important for lack. 3 00:00:11,303 --> 00:00:13,800 We need to understand how some of those 4 00:00:14,179 --> 00:00:14,679 requirements 5 00:00:15,138 --> 00:00:17,955 and the content of the feed is calculated 6 00:00:18,109 --> 00:00:19,469 so that we can better understand how to 7 00:00:19,469 --> 00:00:21,230 formulate the right ration for the right set 8 00:00:21,230 --> 00:00:21,710 of animals. 9 00:00:22,510 --> 00:00:24,670 We'll get into into that today on diving 10 00:00:24,670 --> 00:00:26,429 in today diets. I'm Brad White. Joined today 11 00:00:26,429 --> 00:00:28,676 by doctor. Philip Lancaster and nutrition here. It's 12 00:00:28,755 --> 00:00:30,905 Beef Cattle Institute. Good morning, Philip. Keep going, 13 00:00:31,064 --> 00:00:32,896 Brad. So happy to have you with us, 14 00:00:33,055 --> 00:00:35,068 and this is a a great time to 15 00:00:35,459 --> 00:00:37,933 Kinda get into the details, almost said diving 16 00:00:37,933 --> 00:00:38,491 into the details. 17 00:00:39,289 --> 00:00:41,284 Excited about our title here, but get into 18 00:00:41,284 --> 00:00:42,661 the details of, 19 00:00:43,133 --> 00:00:44,190 things like carbohydrates 20 00:00:44,644 --> 00:00:46,814 and energy and understanding 21 00:00:47,268 --> 00:00:49,812 both how cattle use them and how some 22 00:00:49,812 --> 00:00:52,459 of those requirements and contents are calculated, 23 00:00:52,849 --> 00:00:54,205 And I may have you start out by 24 00:00:54,205 --> 00:00:56,279 just giving us some background on the basics 25 00:00:56,279 --> 00:00:56,518 of, 26 00:00:57,555 --> 00:00:59,171 what do we use carbohydrates 27 00:00:59,628 --> 00:01:02,021 for? What are cattle use carbohydrates for? 28 00:01:02,913 --> 00:01:05,057 So the the main thing and really the 29 00:01:05,057 --> 00:01:07,464 only this energy. So carbs 30 00:01:08,076 --> 00:01:10,459 provide the bulk of the energy in beef 31 00:01:10,459 --> 00:01:10,936 cattle diet. 32 00:01:12,227 --> 00:01:14,541 So there... There's lots of different forms of 33 00:01:14,541 --> 00:01:16,876 carbs that beef cattle used, but that's what 34 00:01:17,015 --> 00:01:19,743 they didn't and they provide energy. Not only 35 00:01:19,743 --> 00:01:21,739 for the animal, but they provide energy for 36 00:01:21,739 --> 00:01:23,016 the microbes in the room. 37 00:01:24,054 --> 00:01:26,689 And so that's that's the main thing that 38 00:01:26,689 --> 00:01:28,525 we're concerned about with carbs. 39 00:01:29,255 --> 00:01:32,192 So when we think about making sure that 40 00:01:32,192 --> 00:01:35,709 they have enough, that energy requirement, 41 00:01:36,734 --> 00:01:39,474 varies quite a bit by both stage of 42 00:01:39,534 --> 00:01:42,415 production and age. Right? When when are some 43 00:01:42,415 --> 00:01:44,655 of the maybe high need times versus low 44 00:01:44,655 --> 00:01:45,135 need times? 45 00:01:45,948 --> 00:01:49,053 So the energy requirement varies through the production 46 00:01:49,053 --> 00:01:50,087 cycle of a cow, 47 00:01:51,838 --> 00:01:52,338 where 48 00:01:52,873 --> 00:01:55,420 when she is in early lac, those first... 49 00:01:55,754 --> 00:01:58,715 3 to 4 months after calvin. That's her 50 00:01:58,715 --> 00:01:59,995 highest energy demand, 51 00:02:00,555 --> 00:02:03,034 our highest energy requirement of the whole production 52 00:02:03,034 --> 00:02:03,355 system. 53 00:02:03,927 --> 00:02:04,665 The lowest 54 00:02:05,117 --> 00:02:07,814 energy time is after she leans that calf. 55 00:02:08,686 --> 00:02:11,066 She's in mid gestation for the next 2 56 00:02:11,066 --> 00:02:11,701 to 3 months. 57 00:02:12,753 --> 00:02:14,132 And the fe is 58 00:02:14,511 --> 00:02:16,988 hasn't really ramped up its growth, a whole 59 00:02:16,988 --> 00:02:20,025 lot yet, and so that's her lowest energy. 60 00:02:20,199 --> 00:02:22,037 Environment of the production cycle. 61 00:02:22,756 --> 00:02:24,754 And then as she gets into late gestation, 62 00:02:25,153 --> 00:02:26,991 and that would be kind of the the 63 00:02:26,991 --> 00:02:29,880 in between where that fetal growth is ramping 64 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:32,512 up and so her energy requirements are increasing, 65 00:02:32,911 --> 00:02:34,825 but they're not as high as they are 66 00:02:34,825 --> 00:02:37,718 during early lac plantation. Given those changes, 67 00:02:38,589 --> 00:02:40,606 when we think about how we're measuring 68 00:02:41,303 --> 00:02:43,059 energy, which is really what we're talking about. 69 00:02:44,017 --> 00:02:46,811 1 of the most common ways that that's 70 00:02:46,811 --> 00:02:50,338 described is through the net energy system. So 71 00:02:50,338 --> 00:02:53,371 what maybe define the net energy system and 72 00:02:53,371 --> 00:02:55,707 tell me how that net energy is calculated. 73 00:02:56,498 --> 00:02:59,305 So the net energy system was 74 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,544 designed to to take us all the way 75 00:03:02,544 --> 00:03:04,652 down from... The gross 76 00:03:05,029 --> 00:03:07,602 energy in a feed or the to 77 00:03:08,298 --> 00:03:08,798 the 78 00:03:09,654 --> 00:03:11,510 energy in a feed that 79 00:03:12,046 --> 00:03:12,546 is 80 00:03:13,018 --> 00:03:16,607 goes to different functions in the animal. So 81 00:03:16,607 --> 00:03:18,362 let's let's walk through it and let's break 82 00:03:18,362 --> 00:03:21,335 it down. So we start with the gross 83 00:03:21,393 --> 00:03:23,324 energy and the feed. That's the total amount 84 00:03:23,324 --> 00:03:24,682 of energy in a feed, 85 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:29,177 but it tells us nothing about how much 86 00:03:29,237 --> 00:03:30,755 energy the animal is going to get out 87 00:03:30,755 --> 00:03:33,822 of the that feed. And so the next 88 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:35,735 step or the first step really 89 00:03:36,112 --> 00:03:38,344 is to go from gross, energy in the 90 00:03:38,344 --> 00:03:40,691 feed to that digestible 91 00:03:41,065 --> 00:03:44,086 energy from the feed. And so what we 92 00:03:44,086 --> 00:03:48,233 lose there is the fecal energy, So if 93 00:03:48,233 --> 00:03:50,612 you take gross energy minus the energy that's 94 00:03:50,612 --> 00:03:53,570 in the feces, you get the digestible energy 95 00:03:54,022 --> 00:03:55,782 that is provided by that you feed. 96 00:03:57,372 --> 00:04:01,346 And digestible energy is the biggest part of 97 00:04:01,346 --> 00:04:02,935 the energy that an animal gets out of 98 00:04:02,935 --> 00:04:05,424 that feeds. So fecal energy is generally the 99 00:04:05,424 --> 00:04:07,760 largest loss of energy 100 00:04:08,218 --> 00:04:10,373 from a feed stuff. And so why does 101 00:04:10,373 --> 00:04:12,379 it go through to the feces why doesn't 102 00:04:12,379 --> 00:04:14,441 why don't they digest more of it? Is 103 00:04:14,441 --> 00:04:17,003 it something functional about that type of 104 00:04:17,693 --> 00:04:21,366 energy? No, it's it's... It's something functional about 105 00:04:21,366 --> 00:04:22,425 the type of carbohydrates 106 00:04:22,803 --> 00:04:25,059 that are in that feed stuff. So 107 00:04:25,597 --> 00:04:26,097 let's 108 00:04:26,475 --> 00:04:28,411 take for instance, forage, 109 00:04:29,045 --> 00:04:32,805 We talk about a Td in value or 110 00:04:32,805 --> 00:04:35,685 a digest ability of forge being somewhere around 111 00:04:35,685 --> 00:04:38,567 60 percent. Well, that means 40 percent is 112 00:04:38,567 --> 00:04:40,474 coming out in the feces. So that's a 113 00:04:40,474 --> 00:04:43,256 really big energy loss as a proportion of 114 00:04:43,256 --> 00:04:43,812 the total. 115 00:04:44,623 --> 00:04:46,457 Things like corn grain. 116 00:04:46,935 --> 00:04:49,088 They have a digestive... It has a digest 117 00:04:49,088 --> 00:04:52,218 ability of around 88 118 00:04:52,276 --> 00:04:52,516 percent, 119 00:04:53,485 --> 00:04:54,382 and so 120 00:04:54,756 --> 00:04:57,457 then that means only 12 percent is coming 121 00:04:57,457 --> 00:04:58,331 out in the feces. 122 00:04:59,284 --> 00:05:00,102 And so 123 00:05:00,555 --> 00:05:00,873 we... 124 00:05:01,444 --> 00:05:04,483 Put a lot of emphasis on digestible energy 125 00:05:04,697 --> 00:05:05,673 because it's the biggest 126 00:05:06,602 --> 00:05:07,102 energy 127 00:05:07,792 --> 00:05:09,538 loss or or right there. 128 00:05:10,347 --> 00:05:12,813 And so another term that you probably are 129 00:05:12,813 --> 00:05:15,620 more familiar with is Td in or total 130 00:05:15,677 --> 00:05:19,282 digestible nutrients. And, that is roughly equivalent to 131 00:05:19,282 --> 00:05:21,759 digestible energy. And so lots of times when 132 00:05:21,759 --> 00:05:24,875 we're formulating diets for beef cows. We are... 133 00:05:25,845 --> 00:05:29,653 Talking about Td, not digestible energy. So you... 134 00:05:29,891 --> 00:05:32,930 You're... The 3 terms that we're using Td, 135 00:05:34,428 --> 00:05:38,556 digestible energy and net energy are close to 136 00:05:38,556 --> 00:05:40,222 synonyms or they are synonyms. 137 00:05:40,857 --> 00:05:44,300 No. So digestible energy and Td in are 138 00:05:44,300 --> 00:05:45,279 close to synonyms. 139 00:05:45,736 --> 00:05:48,527 Net energy is no... Not a s for 140 00:05:48,527 --> 00:05:52,388 digestible energy. So the next step... From digestible 141 00:05:52,524 --> 00:05:54,908 energy is the animal has to do something 142 00:05:54,908 --> 00:05:56,043 with those carbs 143 00:05:56,417 --> 00:05:59,619 that it digested and absorbed. And so 144 00:05:59,928 --> 00:06:02,151 We go from digestible energy to what we 145 00:06:02,151 --> 00:06:05,192 call the the amount of energy that's metabolized. 146 00:06:05,566 --> 00:06:06,463 So metabolized 147 00:06:06,995 --> 00:06:07,630 energy of a feed. 148 00:06:08,282 --> 00:06:11,304 And the difference between those is the amount 149 00:06:11,304 --> 00:06:14,509 of energy that is lost to methane. 150 00:06:15,299 --> 00:06:17,697 Which is a little bit weird is how 151 00:06:17,697 --> 00:06:19,615 they use it because really that's lost during 152 00:06:19,615 --> 00:06:23,152 the digestion process, but that's where that 153 00:06:23,611 --> 00:06:24,330 calculation comes in. 154 00:06:25,460 --> 00:06:28,403 And then the amount that is lost in 155 00:06:28,403 --> 00:06:30,790 urine. So it was... That energy was... So 156 00:06:30,790 --> 00:06:31,426 those carbs. 157 00:06:32,078 --> 00:06:32,795 That those, 158 00:06:35,344 --> 00:06:37,676 actually, it's part of the proteins go into 159 00:06:37,734 --> 00:06:40,385 energy 2. And so the amount of nitrogen 160 00:06:40,602 --> 00:06:43,592 that is treated in urine. It's not completely 161 00:06:43,891 --> 00:06:44,391 ox 162 00:06:44,770 --> 00:06:47,326 or metabolized, so that's a loss of energy 163 00:06:47,326 --> 00:06:48,305 from the total 164 00:06:49,896 --> 00:06:52,289 amount of gross energy that was in that 165 00:06:52,289 --> 00:06:55,082 feed. So that's how we go down to 166 00:06:55,082 --> 00:06:55,582 tab. 167 00:06:56,452 --> 00:06:57,269 And then from 168 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:00,577 energy, then we go to net energy. And 169 00:07:00,577 --> 00:07:02,505 so the difference between metabolized 170 00:07:02,878 --> 00:07:05,120 energy and net energy is the the amount 171 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:07,779 of heat that's produced during metabolism 172 00:07:08,319 --> 00:07:09,279 of those carbs. 173 00:07:09,839 --> 00:07:10,660 And so 174 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:13,311 net energy then has 175 00:07:14,319 --> 00:07:15,295 several different 176 00:07:16,144 --> 00:07:18,764 functions. So if I take if I think 177 00:07:18,764 --> 00:07:19,716 about a feed stuff, 178 00:07:20,287 --> 00:07:23,223 a feed stuff has 1 gross energy value. 179 00:07:23,858 --> 00:07:24,676 It has 180 00:07:25,128 --> 00:07:27,192 1 digestible energy value. 181 00:07:27,843 --> 00:07:30,952 For an animal or a for a a 182 00:07:30,952 --> 00:07:33,981 beef or a cat rum. It has 1 183 00:07:33,981 --> 00:07:34,481 metabolized 184 00:07:35,017 --> 00:07:38,483 energy value but it may have multiple net 185 00:07:38,541 --> 00:07:41,195 energy values because it may have a net 186 00:07:41,333 --> 00:07:44,443 energy for maintenance value, and net energy for 187 00:07:44,443 --> 00:07:45,502 gain value 188 00:07:46,055 --> 00:07:48,794 a net energy for lac location value. 189 00:07:49,894 --> 00:07:52,774 And so it will have several net energy 190 00:07:52,774 --> 00:07:55,412 values depending on how that energy is being 191 00:07:55,412 --> 00:07:58,769 used by the animal. So however, that metabolize 192 00:07:59,301 --> 00:08:00,412 energy is being used, 193 00:08:01,127 --> 00:08:02,055 that trans 194 00:08:03,290 --> 00:08:04,587 formation from metabolized 195 00:08:05,043 --> 00:08:06,877 energy to net energy is different. 196 00:08:07,434 --> 00:08:09,746 So maintenance and lac plantation, 197 00:08:10,319 --> 00:08:13,127 use net energy or use the metabolized 198 00:08:13,502 --> 00:08:14,776 energy more efficiently. 199 00:08:15,333 --> 00:08:17,403 So a feed stuff will have a higher 200 00:08:17,403 --> 00:08:20,232 net energy for maintenance value or a higher 201 00:08:20,371 --> 00:08:23,168 net energy for lifetime value, then it will 202 00:08:23,168 --> 00:08:25,620 a net energy for growth value because that 203 00:08:26,778 --> 00:08:27,518 transformation of 204 00:08:29,895 --> 00:08:33,331 energy to net energy for growth, basically the 205 00:08:33,331 --> 00:08:34,690 growth of muscle and fat, 206 00:08:35,501 --> 00:08:38,599 is lower that that efficiency is lower than 207 00:08:38,599 --> 00:08:40,347 it is if I... If the animal is 208 00:08:40,347 --> 00:08:42,992 using that metabolism energy for maintenance 209 00:08:43,524 --> 00:08:44,716 or lac relaxation. 210 00:08:45,605 --> 00:08:47,989 Okay. So now now you've let me to 211 00:08:47,989 --> 00:08:49,500 several questions. Yeah. Let me make sure I'm 212 00:08:49,500 --> 00:08:52,043 on the right track here. So my... 213 00:08:52,854 --> 00:08:54,852 Total energy in the diet, I really don't 214 00:08:54,852 --> 00:08:56,311 care about. The Td 215 00:08:57,010 --> 00:08:58,847 is what I do care about or the 216 00:08:58,847 --> 00:09:01,345 metabolized energy. Mh. But then 217 00:09:01,819 --> 00:09:04,376 after that step, there are some more losses 218 00:09:04,376 --> 00:09:05,655 before I get to what the animal can 219 00:09:05,655 --> 00:09:08,292 use, and that's where the net energy calculation 220 00:09:08,292 --> 00:09:11,019 comes into play. Yes. Right. And so my 221 00:09:11,019 --> 00:09:13,406 net energy, if I just think of it 222 00:09:13,406 --> 00:09:15,475 simply as, if I have... Let's say I 223 00:09:15,475 --> 00:09:17,385 have a growing calf, and we'll leave lac 224 00:09:17,385 --> 00:09:18,499 plantation out for a second. I've got a 225 00:09:18,499 --> 00:09:19,056 growing calf. 226 00:09:19,789 --> 00:09:22,265 He has to fulfill his net energy for 227 00:09:22,265 --> 00:09:25,700 maintenance requirement every day to maintain his body 228 00:09:25,700 --> 00:09:25,860 weight. 229 00:09:26,593 --> 00:09:27,093 Anything 230 00:09:27,548 --> 00:09:30,093 above and beyond that is net energy for 231 00:09:30,093 --> 00:09:33,037 gain. Right? Yes. So my feed will have 232 00:09:33,037 --> 00:09:33,409 both 233 00:09:34,323 --> 00:09:37,105 M, net energy maintenance and G, net energy 234 00:09:37,105 --> 00:09:39,250 gain listed on it. But the 235 00:09:39,886 --> 00:09:42,055 G number as you're saying is often 236 00:09:42,683 --> 00:09:45,467 smaller, even though it's the same feed stuff. 237 00:09:45,626 --> 00:09:47,615 So I'm struggling to understand. Yeah. Why wouldn't 238 00:09:47,615 --> 00:09:50,411 it just be the same energy because it's 239 00:09:50,411 --> 00:09:52,712 really about how the animal is using the 240 00:09:52,712 --> 00:09:53,212 metabolism 241 00:09:53,665 --> 00:09:55,355 energy. So the conversion from 242 00:09:56,362 --> 00:09:56,735 energy 243 00:09:57,174 --> 00:09:59,914 to net energy for maintenance has an efficiency 244 00:10:00,214 --> 00:10:01,735 of around 0.7. 245 00:10:02,615 --> 00:10:04,855 Alright? So only 30 percent of it goes 246 00:10:04,855 --> 00:10:07,266 to heat production and 70 percent of it 247 00:10:07,266 --> 00:10:10,636 is used to to maintain the animal. The 248 00:10:10,774 --> 00:10:11,913 conversion from metabolized 249 00:10:12,449 --> 00:10:16,235 energy to body tissues, so muscle and fat 250 00:10:16,534 --> 00:10:19,735 has a efficiency of about 0.4. 251 00:10:20,615 --> 00:10:21,514 And so 252 00:10:22,054 --> 00:10:25,738 that means that when I take metabolized energy 253 00:10:25,738 --> 00:10:28,226 times 0.4. I get a much lower number 254 00:10:28,283 --> 00:10:30,510 than when I take metabolized energy times point 255 00:10:30,510 --> 00:10:32,599 set... It. So why why is it that 256 00:10:32,599 --> 00:10:35,412 much so sufficient for gain? What's the basis 257 00:10:35,550 --> 00:10:38,979 behind that? Because of what what we think 258 00:10:38,979 --> 00:10:42,201 and we understand is because of the process, 259 00:10:42,813 --> 00:10:45,592 a coupled different things. The process of s 260 00:10:45,592 --> 00:10:46,648 sizing new molecules, 261 00:10:47,180 --> 00:10:48,633 alright, to grow tissue 262 00:10:49,980 --> 00:10:51,118 requires more 263 00:10:51,893 --> 00:10:54,285 Atp and so you get more heat production 264 00:10:54,285 --> 00:10:56,061 because you're s synthesized new molecules. 265 00:10:57,887 --> 00:10:58,387 And 266 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,098 so proteins in the body are constantly turning 267 00:11:02,098 --> 00:11:03,926 over, even muscle proteins. 268 00:11:04,403 --> 00:11:06,445 And so you've got some 269 00:11:06,802 --> 00:11:08,869 proteins that are being broken down, and then 270 00:11:08,869 --> 00:11:10,958 they gotta be rebuilt, so there's an 271 00:11:11,333 --> 00:11:11,833 inefficiency 272 00:11:12,446 --> 00:11:12,946 there 273 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:16,196 because proteins that were already built have be 274 00:11:16,196 --> 00:11:16,696 rebuilt 275 00:11:17,628 --> 00:11:20,491 as as that protein turnover happens. And so 276 00:11:20,491 --> 00:11:23,513 there's an there's a... That decreases the efficiency 277 00:11:23,513 --> 00:11:25,060 then of metabolize 278 00:11:25,433 --> 00:11:27,416 energy being used for, 279 00:11:28,050 --> 00:11:30,668 muscle and fat growth. K? So, 280 00:11:31,319 --> 00:11:33,316 I have to understand the differences between those, 281 00:11:33,476 --> 00:11:34,296 and there's also 282 00:11:34,754 --> 00:11:37,151 the net energy for lac relaxation, which obviously 283 00:11:37,151 --> 00:11:39,554 applies to lac cows. Which similar to growth 284 00:11:39,554 --> 00:11:41,774 as less efficiency because we're making new stuff, 285 00:11:42,012 --> 00:11:44,073 basically what you're studying. But but yes, it 286 00:11:44,073 --> 00:11:46,110 does, but not nearly as much. Which 287 00:11:47,026 --> 00:11:50,394 because there's no there's there's no turnover 288 00:11:51,009 --> 00:11:51,509 of 289 00:11:52,364 --> 00:11:53,001 stuff in milk. 290 00:11:53,638 --> 00:11:55,630 It's made once, and it leads. 291 00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:00,500 And so the efficiency of metabolize energy lac 292 00:12:00,500 --> 00:12:04,081 relaxation is is very close to the efficiency 293 00:12:04,081 --> 00:12:07,592 for maintenance. So it's... In fact, the dairy 294 00:12:07,592 --> 00:12:10,687 industry just uses 1 number. They they use 295 00:12:10,687 --> 00:12:13,648 1 number for net energy because those 2 296 00:12:13,783 --> 00:12:16,192 users. So close that it doesn't make that 297 00:12:16,192 --> 00:12:17,891 big a difference when it comes to formulating 298 00:12:18,031 --> 00:12:20,348 die. K. So when I'm using those for 299 00:12:20,348 --> 00:12:22,186 making a irrational, and I'm gonna make a 300 00:12:22,186 --> 00:12:23,705 ration for growing calves, 301 00:12:24,517 --> 00:12:26,669 I have... And and just for example, Let's 302 00:12:26,669 --> 00:12:28,263 say I've got a pound of feed, 303 00:12:28,900 --> 00:12:31,233 and it has a net energy value 304 00:12:32,501 --> 00:12:34,433 of something, and then it has a net 305 00:12:34,490 --> 00:12:36,560 energy gain of something. So would that be, 306 00:12:36,639 --> 00:12:39,288 like, 1 and 0.4 307 00:12:39,346 --> 00:12:41,827 0.9 and 0.4 or something like that? Yeah. 308 00:12:42,065 --> 00:12:43,279 So let's... So 309 00:12:43,731 --> 00:12:45,793 depends we're gonna we're gonna focus on, 310 00:12:46,349 --> 00:12:47,935 mega cows per pound. Alright? 311 00:12:48,983 --> 00:12:52,251 And so you're you're gonna be somewhere... Your 312 00:12:52,251 --> 00:12:54,106 energy for maintenance is gonna be somewhere 313 00:12:55,041 --> 00:12:55,541 around, 314 00:12:55,917 --> 00:12:57,209 you know, 0.7 315 00:12:57,209 --> 00:12:59,286 to 1, somewhere in that ballpark, 316 00:12:59,686 --> 00:13:01,524 and your net for gain is gonna be 317 00:13:01,524 --> 00:13:02,024 somewhere 318 00:13:02,483 --> 00:13:05,040 in around 0.3 to 0.6. 319 00:13:05,850 --> 00:13:08,872 Okay. So so let's say I've got that 320 00:13:08,872 --> 00:13:11,893 feed, and it's 0.7 and 0.3, for example. 321 00:13:12,450 --> 00:13:12,768 Then... 322 00:13:13,577 --> 00:13:15,404 Do do I get both of those out 323 00:13:15,404 --> 00:13:16,912 of that same pound of feed? So can 324 00:13:17,071 --> 00:13:18,421 I use a pound to feed and and 325 00:13:18,501 --> 00:13:21,121 I can say, okay, I'm getting 0.7 from? 326 00:13:21,454 --> 00:13:23,609 Net energy maintenance and I'm getting 0.3 from 327 00:13:23,609 --> 00:13:25,705 gain or do I have to use them 328 00:13:26,083 --> 00:13:28,397 sequentially. I gotta do maintenance before I can 329 00:13:28,397 --> 00:13:29,195 do gain. We... 330 00:13:29,926 --> 00:13:30,426 Technically, 331 00:13:31,039 --> 00:13:33,104 the animals using everything all at the same 332 00:13:33,104 --> 00:13:36,282 time. Right. But mathematically and for our brains 333 00:13:36,282 --> 00:13:39,399 to to handle it, we do it sequentially. 334 00:13:39,797 --> 00:13:42,369 So what we do is we we calculate 335 00:13:42,746 --> 00:13:45,317 the net energy for maintenance requirement. 336 00:13:46,028 --> 00:13:47,142 Of an animal. 337 00:13:47,620 --> 00:13:49,952 And then we use that 0.7 number 338 00:13:50,407 --> 00:13:53,115 to figure out how many pounds of feet 339 00:13:53,115 --> 00:13:56,074 is gonna require or to meet that net 340 00:13:56,074 --> 00:13:58,778 energy for maintenance requirement. And then we've got... 341 00:13:58,937 --> 00:14:01,642 Well, then we've got... So let's say, the 342 00:14:01,642 --> 00:14:02,857 animal is eating 343 00:14:03,646 --> 00:14:06,671 20 pounds of feet. Okay? And so let's 344 00:14:06,671 --> 00:14:07,807 say it took 345 00:14:08,263 --> 00:14:10,865 8 pounds of feed to meet the maintenance 346 00:14:11,144 --> 00:14:13,144 requirement. That means I've got 12 pounds of 347 00:14:13,144 --> 00:14:14,125 feed left 348 00:14:14,504 --> 00:14:16,745 suit that can be used for gain. And 349 00:14:16,745 --> 00:14:18,720 so then I take that 12 pounds since 350 00:14:18,839 --> 00:14:20,993 times the net energy for gain number, the 351 00:14:20,993 --> 00:14:21,551 0.3, 352 00:14:22,029 --> 00:14:24,364 that tells me how many mega calories 353 00:14:24,981 --> 00:14:27,932 of energy are available for gain on it 354 00:14:27,932 --> 00:14:28,331 per day. 355 00:14:28,983 --> 00:14:31,050 And then I can use some other equations 356 00:14:31,050 --> 00:14:33,197 to estimate what the rate of gain would 357 00:14:33,197 --> 00:14:35,582 be for that animal based on having 12 358 00:14:35,582 --> 00:14:38,285 mega cows of net energy for gain available. 359 00:14:38,539 --> 00:14:40,474 Because I can't I can't get the gain 360 00:14:40,532 --> 00:14:42,605 unless I do maintenance first. And and, yes, 361 00:14:42,765 --> 00:14:44,360 they're using them both at the same time. 362 00:14:44,918 --> 00:14:46,752 The analogy that I've used before and you 363 00:14:46,752 --> 00:14:48,198 can tell me if this... Makes sense or 364 00:14:48,198 --> 00:14:50,286 not. Is it it if you had a 365 00:14:51,055 --> 00:14:53,515 pitcher, like a drinking pitcher and you put 366 00:14:53,515 --> 00:14:55,579 a small glass inside of it, 367 00:14:56,546 --> 00:14:58,874 until you... If that glass represents maintenance 368 00:14:59,486 --> 00:15:01,074 until I fill up the glass, 369 00:15:01,631 --> 00:15:03,775 I I don't have any water in my 370 00:15:03,775 --> 00:15:05,622 pitcher, which is gained. And I always have 371 00:15:05,622 --> 00:15:07,377 to fill up the glass first. Is that 372 00:15:07,377 --> 00:15:09,452 is that a reasonable analogy So you you 373 00:15:09,452 --> 00:15:11,766 gotta you you pour the water into the 374 00:15:11,766 --> 00:15:13,937 glass Yep. And then when the glass starts 375 00:15:13,937 --> 00:15:17,133 to overflow, then you have some water that 376 00:15:17,133 --> 00:15:18,571 starts to fill up the rest of the 377 00:15:18,571 --> 00:15:20,263 picture. And, yes. That's of that's a pretty 378 00:15:20,263 --> 00:15:22,581 good analogy that we gotta fill up the 379 00:15:22,581 --> 00:15:23,081 maintenance 380 00:15:23,779 --> 00:15:24,918 glass first 381 00:15:25,537 --> 00:15:27,590 before we can have anything flow over 382 00:15:28,029 --> 00:15:29,705 into the game to get your. And it 383 00:15:29,705 --> 00:15:31,882 doesn't matter if your feed says it's got 384 00:15:32,340 --> 00:15:34,495 a high E g value. 385 00:15:34,895 --> 00:15:36,412 You never use it unless you fill up 386 00:15:36,412 --> 00:15:39,460 that maintenance glass. First. Yep. Exactly. So I 387 00:15:39,460 --> 00:15:42,014 think that that helps me make sense. The 388 00:15:42,014 --> 00:15:44,649 the problem is I I have a grasp 389 00:15:44,649 --> 00:15:47,056 on that Net energy system But then if 390 00:15:47,135 --> 00:15:49,598 I send feed to the lab, when I 391 00:15:49,598 --> 00:15:52,379 get it back, it has things like India, 392 00:15:52,617 --> 00:15:53,173 Td d in. 393 00:15:53,904 --> 00:15:56,785 Ad d f, may even have other... It's 394 00:15:56,785 --> 00:15:58,945 a alphabet soup of... You may... I mean, 395 00:15:59,024 --> 00:16:01,904 you may also have AANDF0DF, 396 00:16:02,718 --> 00:16:05,989 So I appreciate that the nutrition are working 397 00:16:05,989 --> 00:16:08,383 with other professionals on really up in their 398 00:16:08,383 --> 00:16:11,418 acronym game. Right? Really going making everything in 399 00:16:11,418 --> 00:16:13,720 acronyms, so nobody can understand it. We're almost 400 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:15,862 as good as the government. Yeah. Almost as 401 00:16:15,862 --> 00:16:18,259 good. So help me sort this out, 402 00:16:18,975 --> 00:16:21,199 Td. Let's start with Td d, Ad f 403 00:16:21,199 --> 00:16:23,027 and Nd, What are they? And what do 404 00:16:23,027 --> 00:16:26,221 they mean relative, and and especially, relating back 405 00:16:26,221 --> 00:16:29,243 to Net energy for me. Okay. So Td, 406 00:16:29,402 --> 00:16:30,993 we talked about a little bit about, Td 407 00:16:30,993 --> 00:16:33,955 is total digestible nutrient. So it's the amount 408 00:16:33,955 --> 00:16:34,455 of 409 00:16:34,992 --> 00:16:35,492 carbs 410 00:16:35,870 --> 00:16:37,885 plus protein plus fat 411 00:16:38,661 --> 00:16:39,560 that are 412 00:16:40,017 --> 00:16:42,330 digested. I'm okay. So you add them all 413 00:16:42,664 --> 00:16:43,783 So if I got, you know, 414 00:16:44,582 --> 00:16:46,121 part... My feet is 415 00:16:46,500 --> 00:16:49,058 70 percent carbs and those carbs are 60 416 00:16:49,058 --> 00:16:51,055 percent digested, and then I take that number, 417 00:16:51,375 --> 00:16:53,808 and I've got feed that's 15 percent protein 418 00:16:53,947 --> 00:16:56,503 that is 70 percent digested and I... So 419 00:16:56,503 --> 00:16:58,421 that's how I get that total digestible nutrients. 420 00:16:58,900 --> 00:17:01,229 And that is, like I said, roughly equal 421 00:17:01,229 --> 00:17:03,861 to digestible energy in the net energy system. 422 00:17:04,818 --> 00:17:08,008 In the f is neutral detergent fiber, and 423 00:17:08,008 --> 00:17:09,259 this is a number that's 424 00:17:09,697 --> 00:17:11,948 I say relatively unique to rum 425 00:17:13,039 --> 00:17:14,153 in the fact that, 426 00:17:14,710 --> 00:17:17,574 the old feed analysis system used to use 427 00:17:17,574 --> 00:17:18,210 crude fiber. 428 00:17:18,782 --> 00:17:20,476 And that value was 429 00:17:21,089 --> 00:17:21,589 very 430 00:17:22,919 --> 00:17:25,599 to rum nutrition because it doesn't tell you 431 00:17:26,039 --> 00:17:28,617 much of anything about how much actual fiber 432 00:17:28,836 --> 00:17:31,154 is in there. It works for mono gas, 433 00:17:31,314 --> 00:17:33,311 but not very well for room it's. And 434 00:17:33,311 --> 00:17:33,811 so 435 00:17:34,910 --> 00:17:37,865 the neutral detergent fiber is an estimate of 436 00:17:37,865 --> 00:17:39,318 the total fiber 437 00:17:39,851 --> 00:17:42,392 in a feed stuff. So it's the cellulose, 438 00:17:42,550 --> 00:17:44,218 the hem cellulose and the l. 439 00:17:45,189 --> 00:17:47,205 And and gives me an idea of everything 440 00:17:47,584 --> 00:17:49,739 all the fiber or plant cell wall that's 441 00:17:49,739 --> 00:17:49,899 there. 442 00:17:50,617 --> 00:17:51,756 The Ad 443 00:17:52,454 --> 00:17:55,523 is the acid detergent fiber. And the acid 444 00:17:55,581 --> 00:17:58,772 detergent fiber is a a little bit different 445 00:17:58,772 --> 00:17:59,250 analysis, 446 00:17:59,888 --> 00:18:02,281 it breaks down the hem cellulose. So what 447 00:18:02,361 --> 00:18:04,768 I'm left with is the cellulose and the 448 00:18:04,928 --> 00:18:05,246 Malignant. 449 00:18:05,963 --> 00:18:09,091 And the difference between those 2 numbers 450 00:18:09,546 --> 00:18:10,046 is 451 00:18:10,661 --> 00:18:14,019 the Nd mdf number tells me the total 452 00:18:14,019 --> 00:18:15,607 amount of fiber and it tells me kinda 453 00:18:15,607 --> 00:18:18,149 how bulky that feed is gonna be. It's 454 00:18:18,149 --> 00:18:21,827 gonna... It's it's somewhat related to intake. How 455 00:18:21,883 --> 00:18:22,757 especially on forage. 456 00:18:23,327 --> 00:18:25,154 How much is that Animal gonna be able 457 00:18:25,154 --> 00:18:26,527 to eat because that 458 00:18:26,901 --> 00:18:29,704 feed is gonna be really bulky and how 459 00:18:29,918 --> 00:18:32,165 much room is gonna take up in her 460 00:18:33,188 --> 00:18:33,823 in the room. 461 00:18:34,854 --> 00:18:37,179 The Ad f value is gonna be somewhat 462 00:18:37,235 --> 00:18:38,211 related to 463 00:18:38,583 --> 00:18:39,559 the Td. 464 00:18:39,932 --> 00:18:40,829 Alright? Because 465 00:18:41,138 --> 00:18:44,717 I took out the most digestible part of 466 00:18:44,717 --> 00:18:47,104 the fiber, which is the hem cellulose, and 467 00:18:47,104 --> 00:18:49,744 the ad, is the cellulose and ligand, which 468 00:18:49,744 --> 00:18:52,210 are the 2 least digestible parts of the 469 00:18:52,210 --> 00:18:52,528 fiber. 470 00:18:53,085 --> 00:18:54,539 So when we talk about forage 471 00:18:55,089 --> 00:18:58,616 an Ad f value that's higher means lower 472 00:18:58,674 --> 00:19:01,883 digest ability. And so most labs 473 00:19:02,673 --> 00:19:04,768 use that Ad value 474 00:19:05,385 --> 00:19:08,894 to estimate the Td. There are some equations 475 00:19:08,894 --> 00:19:10,192 that have been developed 476 00:19:10,569 --> 00:19:11,069 to 477 00:19:12,498 --> 00:19:15,228 relate those 2 things. There are some other 478 00:19:15,285 --> 00:19:16,581 equations that use 479 00:19:17,355 --> 00:19:20,164 Ad f, plus Nd, plus crude protein, 480 00:19:21,989 --> 00:19:23,842 but most labs use 481 00:19:24,696 --> 00:19:26,846 equation that is just based on Ad f. 482 00:19:27,563 --> 00:19:29,178 Because lab don't 483 00:19:29,489 --> 00:19:31,401 The only way to truly get Td in 484 00:19:31,401 --> 00:19:32,698 is to feed the 485 00:19:33,234 --> 00:19:36,500 feed to an animal, and that's not practical. 486 00:19:37,394 --> 00:19:39,875 From a wet lab perspective. And so we 487 00:19:39,875 --> 00:19:42,454 have these equations then that can convert 488 00:19:42,755 --> 00:19:43,255 Ad 489 00:19:43,714 --> 00:19:46,203 to Td d in And the question from 490 00:19:46,203 --> 00:19:48,774 a from a practical standpoint is knowing 491 00:19:49,628 --> 00:19:52,915 what equation they're using and how well that 492 00:19:52,973 --> 00:19:56,272 equation works for your type of forage 493 00:19:57,124 --> 00:19:59,351 because there are some based on alfalfa, there 494 00:19:59,351 --> 00:20:01,657 are some based on grasses and and they're 495 00:20:01,657 --> 00:20:02,109 different 496 00:20:02,947 --> 00:20:05,977 and they they don't necessarily cross over well. 497 00:20:06,855 --> 00:20:09,885 So how do I relate any or all 498 00:20:09,885 --> 00:20:12,130 3 of those to my net energy? Okay. 499 00:20:12,368 --> 00:20:14,826 So good question. So that we said the 500 00:20:14,905 --> 00:20:18,633 Td in is pretty much equivalent to the 501 00:20:18,633 --> 00:20:22,576 digestible energy. So then I can take there's 502 00:20:22,635 --> 00:20:25,352 in the in the beef cattle Rc nrc, 503 00:20:25,751 --> 00:20:26,630 there are... 504 00:20:27,444 --> 00:20:29,845 Couple of equations where I can take Td 505 00:20:29,845 --> 00:20:32,265 in and I can convert that to net 506 00:20:32,325 --> 00:20:35,125 energy. And then lots of times, a feed 507 00:20:35,125 --> 00:20:36,893 lab will do that for you, and they'll 508 00:20:36,893 --> 00:20:39,517 report a Td end and net energy values 509 00:20:39,517 --> 00:20:42,299 on the feed report. Sometimes they don't. But 510 00:20:42,299 --> 00:20:44,303 you can get those equations for from the 511 00:20:44,782 --> 00:20:47,016 Nrc, and you can convert that to, 512 00:20:47,814 --> 00:20:50,766 NEM and E g. To a couple... 513 00:20:51,419 --> 00:20:53,250 And that helps because that's what we've talked 514 00:20:53,250 --> 00:20:55,319 about as far as formulating my ration a 515 00:20:55,319 --> 00:20:57,151 couple other things that we talked about may 516 00:20:57,151 --> 00:21:00,670 show up were a India. And o m 517 00:21:00,989 --> 00:21:02,504 Nd f. What it what do those mean? 518 00:21:02,902 --> 00:21:06,251 So those are adjustments that we've made over 519 00:21:06,251 --> 00:21:07,946 the years to the Nd 520 00:21:08,579 --> 00:21:08,900 procedure. 521 00:21:09,460 --> 00:21:11,720 So the original Nd procedure 522 00:21:12,019 --> 00:21:12,839 just had 523 00:21:13,140 --> 00:21:13,640 the 524 00:21:14,740 --> 00:21:17,547 neutral buffer in there to break down the 525 00:21:17,547 --> 00:21:19,528 cell si, and then what you're left with 526 00:21:19,528 --> 00:21:22,222 was the plant cell wall. Well, different feed 527 00:21:22,222 --> 00:21:23,990 stuff that have 528 00:21:24,855 --> 00:21:26,310 some things that can 529 00:21:26,685 --> 00:21:29,390 hinder that process. So feeds that have a 530 00:21:29,390 --> 00:21:32,254 lot of starch, starch tends to clog up 531 00:21:32,254 --> 00:21:32,891 the filter, 532 00:21:33,463 --> 00:21:36,011 that we use to filter out the cell 533 00:21:36,011 --> 00:21:38,401 valuables. And so then what you end up 534 00:21:38,401 --> 00:21:41,029 with as an inflated number of plant cell 535 00:21:41,029 --> 00:21:43,513 wall because, not all the cell soluble will 536 00:21:43,513 --> 00:21:46,381 go through the filter. So the a in 537 00:21:46,381 --> 00:21:48,133 a and d f means that they have 538 00:21:48,133 --> 00:21:49,589 added alpha amy 539 00:21:49,965 --> 00:21:50,921 to the procedure, 540 00:21:51,413 --> 00:21:53,315 to break down the starch and let it 541 00:21:53,315 --> 00:21:56,011 filter through, and then you can get a 542 00:21:56,011 --> 00:21:58,627 more accurate estimate of the Nd mdf. The... 543 00:21:59,198 --> 00:21:59,914 O m, 544 00:22:00,630 --> 00:22:03,494 part of Nd f is stands for organic 545 00:22:03,494 --> 00:22:06,174 matter. So now what we're doing is we're 546 00:22:06,295 --> 00:22:09,575 we're adjusting Nd mdf as a proportion of 547 00:22:09,575 --> 00:22:12,134 the organic matter not of the total feed. 548 00:22:12,295 --> 00:22:13,515 So we take the 549 00:22:13,815 --> 00:22:14,855 ash out. 550 00:22:15,428 --> 00:22:17,178 And now we look at Nd mdf as 551 00:22:17,178 --> 00:22:19,960 a proportion of the total organic matter instead 552 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:21,709 of as a proportion of the total diet. 553 00:22:21,868 --> 00:22:23,220 And so when you got some feeds that 554 00:22:23,220 --> 00:22:24,651 have a high ash content, 555 00:22:25,144 --> 00:22:26,660 that can make a pretty big difference. 556 00:22:27,378 --> 00:22:30,091 Excellent. So this... If I send a sample 557 00:22:30,091 --> 00:22:31,687 to the lab, I'm gonna get these type 558 00:22:31,687 --> 00:22:32,725 of values back. 559 00:22:33,377 --> 00:22:35,233 If I'm purchasing a feed 560 00:22:35,689 --> 00:22:37,283 and I look at the feed tag, what... 561 00:22:37,921 --> 00:22:39,595 Which value should I look at to figure 562 00:22:39,595 --> 00:22:40,791 out what my net energy is. 563 00:22:41,443 --> 00:22:44,232 None. Nothing and that is the that is 564 00:22:44,232 --> 00:22:44,971 the biggest 565 00:22:45,348 --> 00:22:46,326 limitation of 566 00:22:46,702 --> 00:22:49,491 manufactured feeds is a feed tag does not 567 00:22:49,491 --> 00:22:51,059 require any kind of 568 00:22:51,976 --> 00:22:54,286 energy value to be reported there. So you 569 00:22:54,286 --> 00:22:56,539 have no way of estimating 570 00:22:57,314 --> 00:22:59,885 the energy value of a 571 00:23:00,261 --> 00:23:02,740 commercial fee. Yeah. But but there's there's no 572 00:23:02,740 --> 00:23:05,283 there's no Td in. There's there's no nothing 573 00:23:05,283 --> 00:23:07,110 reported on the tag. It was it's not 574 00:23:07,110 --> 00:23:07,586 required as... 575 00:23:08,875 --> 00:23:09,991 Part of law, 576 00:23:10,548 --> 00:23:12,700 and so you that you just don't have 577 00:23:12,700 --> 00:23:15,408 anything. So the only thing you can... 2 578 00:23:15,408 --> 00:23:17,263 options. You can call the feed 579 00:23:17,654 --> 00:23:19,905 sure, and they may have something from their 580 00:23:20,201 --> 00:23:22,191 formulation that they might be willing to share, 581 00:23:23,226 --> 00:23:25,238 or you have to send in a sample 582 00:23:25,375 --> 00:23:28,017 of that feed to a lad where they 583 00:23:28,017 --> 00:23:30,170 will do a nut nutrient analysis and give 584 00:23:30,170 --> 00:23:31,924 you an estimate of Td in that you 585 00:23:31,924 --> 00:23:34,156 can then work with. Which which there may 586 00:23:34,156 --> 00:23:36,721 be times that it depends on how much 587 00:23:36,721 --> 00:23:38,709 of that feed I'm feeding and why I'm 588 00:23:38,709 --> 00:23:40,219 feeding it, but there may be times that 589 00:23:40,219 --> 00:23:41,809 that's important. There may be times that's not 590 00:23:41,809 --> 00:23:43,400 as important because I'm feeding it for another 591 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,509 reason. Yeah. So Yeah. Feed tags labeling laws 592 00:23:46,509 --> 00:23:47,960 were designed to, 593 00:23:48,729 --> 00:23:50,576 protect the consumer from fraudulent, 594 00:23:52,154 --> 00:23:55,505 Feed manufacturing, not designed for nutritionists to be 595 00:23:55,505 --> 00:23:58,058 able to form to be ration with those 596 00:23:58,058 --> 00:24:01,509 feeds. Yeah. Absolutely. Great information on energy today, 597 00:24:01,750 --> 00:24:02,869 Philip up. I appreciate you sharing with us. 598 00:24:03,029 --> 00:24:05,910 We walk through the net energy system. We 599 00:24:05,910 --> 00:24:07,430 talked about what we would do with our 600 00:24:07,430 --> 00:24:08,150 feed analysis. 601 00:24:08,801 --> 00:24:10,546 Appreciate you sharing that info. Thanks, Philip. Yep. 602 00:24:10,783 --> 00:24:11,180 Thank you.