Hi, Welcome Bc Cattle on Brad White happy
to have you with us And happy to
have our guys here in the studio today.
Good morning, Bob. Good morning. Good morning, Philip.
Hey, guys. We're glad that you guys are
here. We've got a couple folks out today,
but We've still got plenty to talk about.
In fact, I've got some questions for you
guys.
Also, we've got a listener question that was
about...
Utter development in He and nursing. And then
we are gonna get Brian back in and
have him discuss how antibiotics work. So pretty
big question for Brian. So we'll wait tiny
back in for that 1. But we will
be able to address that before we get
into those, I wanna remind you if you
have questions, comments, things you'd like us to
talk about, You can send us an email
at bc at KSU dot EDU.
And before I get into my even more
random questions. I do have 1 for you
guys. I was
in charge of dinner last night, and I'm
afraid, I don't have a lot. In my
toolbox as far as being able, so we
had burgers. Mh, which is not surprised. But
I thought I would pick your brains. When
you're left to make dinner for the family.
Do you have anything I could do... Now
remember? My skill set is low.
So what could I cook for the family
besides burgers, and don't say steaks because I've
already got that 1 down too. That that
that was gonna be my answer. Okay. It's
gotta be pretty simple. Can you follow a
recipe
for Not really. Oh, boys.
Like you trouble. When... Let's see there's craft
mac and cheese. Yeah. Amber helper. Yep. Yep.
What just kind of an egg scramble. You
just... You scramble a bunch of eggs and
then you open the fridge and see what
else is in there, maybe some
bacon or... It's chop ups some veggies and
stuff. You can always kinda do that egg
scramble, and that's kind of a... That's kind
of a last minute. I can't kids don't
like them black, though. That's all can truth.
You do have it. Can you do pancakes?
Mean you can do breakfast? No. I don't
I don't like breakfast for dinner. Yeah. Alright.
See you could see why my difficulties is
coming from. Yeah. It may be so far
I'm thinking call in the pizza place. Just
starting to look about. The best you're gonna
do. Alright. The burgers were excellent. Yeah, bet
they were. So...
Well,
that will lead us directly into... I do
have some questions for you guys, And and
we'll do this where we've gone through before
relatively short as we go through, because I
have several questions for you. And it's Philip,
I'm gonna start out with you.
If we're in a situation, some are grazing
and you guys can either 1 jump in.
But some are grazing, I've been putting mineral
out all year, and then my mineral consumption
has dropped by quite a bit. So I'm
not putting mirrors as much out.
Is this something I need to worry about?
Do I need to move the mineral feeder
changed to a different type of mineral? Or
do I assume? Well, if they're not eating
it, they're getting it somewhere? Well, I don't
know that you can assume that generally. Because
generally, they're gonna consume mineral based on salt.
So probably the reason they're not... Assuming mineral
is because they're getting plenty of salt through
the forage or somewhere else.
So,
we probably need to to think about how
to get some mineral into them. So this
time of year, I mean, we're in the
summer probably starting some summer
supplementation subtype types and pro... Protein supplement.
So have the mineral mixed right into your
protein supplement is the best strategy, and then
you they're gonna consume it right along with
the protein up. Yeah. Control their control consumption,
and be sure that if I've got it
placed, it's placed
high traffic. Area. So near the water, somewhere
they can get to or somewhere they'll come
to get it. Bob, next question for you,
carry
fly control,
back rubber
or get everyone in and individually apply an
insect side.
Well, You know, first of, I've I've worked
with producers that have made a lot of
different methods of flight control work. And so,
you, I'm not gonna actually argue with anybody
that has figured out a system that works
for them. But I do like a back
rubber in that,
I think most cattle will use it, particularly
again, it does have to be placed in
the right place place in an area where
they're gonna walk. Through anyway.
And I do have to make sure that
it's charged and that I've kept it full.
I mean, so there's a little bit of
work involved but it does allow cattle to
basically,
self medicate every day,
or nearly every day, And I... And that's
1 of the things I really like. It's
relatively inexpensive way that... If it's placed right
and it's charged and and kept up, it's
a pretty good way to provide a, frequent
fly control, and, you know, you know, there's
stuff I like and don't like about every
method of flight control. 1 of the things
I don't like about ear tags is You
start with 1 dose and then that dose
gradually declines over the summer. When you're using
a back rubber again as long as they're
still insect insecticides out there, I'm I'm keeping
the same dose throughout the summer. And so
I I really like that. Yeah. The struggle
is making sure that they all use it,
and they won't all use it. So you
have to you have to figure out whereas
if I apply, your tags are insect insecticides,
I gave all the same dose. 1 point
in time. Which is I I said there's
there's positives and negatives for any way you,
provide the flight control and getting them all
in and doing a a spray or a
pour on. I That's a way to ensure
that every animal gets it, but I'm gonna
have to repeat that pretty frequently, and that
becomes very labor intensive. But you also said
you would argue with anybody about it than
you argued with. Well, I'm I'm just saying
there's always a plus in am mine. Nice
bro account. Alright. Philip up, next topic for
you,
rapid cool season
grasses.
I that we're growing rapidly,
tried grazing them couldn't keep up with them.
So now I have a mix of some
areas that are
g really well. Some areas where it's gotten
too
mature.
Give me some ops should I go in
and try to make hey in this scenario,
should I continue trying to grade it even
though it's gone to mature, Should I try
to mow it in the cool season scenario?
So
at this point, we're probably past the idea
of paying a cool season forage.
So
at probably,
1 thing we could try to do though
is we... Thing on your situation, if you
can adjust the size of your pastors or
your pad.
To
shrink them down quite a bit, and we're
gonna go more intensive grazing
where we're gonna really... We're gonna force those
animals to
consumes some more of that,
older mature forage, at least tram it down,
and as they're in there, So that then
once we start to get a little cooler
weather here a little in another month or
so, we get a good free growth, a
good flush of... Of good cool season forge
again. So I wanna get rid of that
stuff.
I could go in there and I can
mow it off with a brush hog or
something like that, but that's gonna be fairly
expensive,
but I can do some things about managing
the intensity of my grazing.
And I also need to to probably do
a little bit of that anyway is where
I'm allowing some of those pastors to get
longer rest as that growth rate slows down
in those cool season voyages in the... With
the hotter weather. Yeah. Trying to trying to
get them to utilize it, which
utilization may involve consumption
or tram. And so that way I get
the that plant to put up some new
leaves and shoots and stuff when it cools
off. Yep. Absolutely.
So last question for you, Bob is pink
eye related, and both of you and I
have been frustrated by this disease and and
we see it. And and specifically,
when we think about
identifying it, give me some things I should
look forward to
identify it in individuals and maybe determine
Which 1 should I treat or not treat?
Yeah.
To deal with pink eye effectively, I'd like
to treat it as early as possible. So
as soon as you see some tearing in
the eyes... I would I would get those
calves and treatment them. Again, I know that's
not easy. A lot times were out on
pasture, and it's a it's a difficult thing
to ask,
but
It's not gonna get better on its own
for a while. And so if you... You're
gonna see it progress, and you'll you'll see
some ulcers in the eye, you'll see more
pain more. More calf performance losses. So the
main thing is so as soon as you
see any watering in the eye and you
go well, it doesn't really look cloudy yet,
it doesn't look red, treat it now. Treat
it as soon as you see the watery.
Exactly. And I think I think your your
point there is this disease develops very, very
rapidly. So you'll see that that progression from
tier to have an a corn ulcer or
scratch on the surface of the eye
happens really quickly. Sooner we get them in,
the better we have a chance of of
a good outcome. Yeah. Exactly. And the the
success of treating 1 so that...
There's quite a bit of damage to that
eye. Our antibiotics probably aren't gonna make as
much difference as they would have much earlier.
Now sometimes we'll put a patch on them
and we'll do some other things that that
provides some relief, but we would have been
a lot more effective if we had treated
it earlier. Absolutely. Great answers, guys. Good good
answers to those questions.
And now I wanna hear your answer to
a listener question.
And this question is a really good 1
because I think it involves a a couple
different facets here.
And they had a situation where they had
he
that were about 3 months bread. They went
ahead and turned them in with the main
herd. Makes it a lot easier management wise.
The challenge that they're running into is some
of the young calves that were born from
cows in the herd
are now trying to nurse those He
couple parts of this question. Do I have
concerns that this is going to mess up
the He utter development
And 2, what do I do to get
the caps from to stop doing this. So
Bob, I'm gonna turn to you first. Which
can I answer either 1? Yeah. You answer
the easy 1 we'll give the hard 1
fill it? Yeah. Well,
will it cause some problems to their editor
development? I... I'm concerned that it could.
And 1 of the things I'm concerned about
developing the mass dye or something else like
that. And so This is... I'm not gonna
let this stand. I'm gonna try to...
And probably that means, the easiest way to
make sure that it stops is to remove
those he out of it. I think I
was fine to put the he in there
with the cows when they're on growing... Green
growing grass But we've run into a problem.
I think it's time to adjust that plan
and and actually pull them out and put
them where they're not with those calves. I
think you're right. And and from some of
my conversations the... We we often don't see
mas
in
mature cows, but you certainly can develop it
as a he if they're nurse on it
other playing around and see those situations. Philip,
what are what are your thoughts as far
as... So bob Bob said, maybe get the
he out of there will help solve the
problem. Does and that he's concerned about.
What are your thoughts on this 1? Well,
I think 1 of the first questions I
ask, why are they nursing on a effort
that has no bag
she's got no other development. She's
providing no milk.
It is the 3 months bread as a
he.
So why are they nursing on her instead
of the damn? I mean, I can I
can see them maybe going to nurse as
just a
a comfort reflex? The dams were not no
longer in there, but they're dam that's producing
the milk is in there. So the question
is why are they... And so
are my are my mature cows thin? Have
they really backed off their milk production,
you know, start figure out maybe why those
calves are wanting to nurse on those he
instead of nursing on their dams. And so...
And maybe I need to provide a creep,
Maybe I need some additional nutrients, of those
calves if my cows have really backed off
in their milk production or something. But they
you start figuring out maybe why that's is
happening and them... Because there may be more
to it than just so I need to
protect the other development of the he.
I need to figure out Mh. Why my
calves are doing it because it's it made
very well be a nutritional deficiency
thing they're just hungry. So we... And I
think that's an important distinction is on the
sign of the problem is the cab nursing
he, but the actual root to the problem
maybe the milk from the dams is what
you're saying. So first you... First shoot check
body condition,
also wouldn't be opposed to getting some of
those cows in if you can't see their
ut well or even if you can see
their at well and make sure that, she's
actually got the milk that is necessary for
those calves,
because that may be kind of the root
because this is not normal. Behavior and that
they would be trying to trying to nurse
on. Now it is relatively normal
that they'll once in a while, swap dams
and still a bite here or there. Right?
I mean, that that will happen, but you...
I wouldn't expect them to be going towards
those he because those he
at this point should have nothing in there
At. Right, bob Yeah. And and I am
kinda just guessing what might be going on
here. It could be a behavioral thing where
the hep don't know enough to keep those
calves away. Know, maybe the other cows are
gonna, you know, kick, I'm in it could
be pretty natural.
So I... This is an interesting question because
it... It's not typical. It's not normal It
needs to be in negated. So III agree.
But don't stop with just removing the he.
Go ahead and figure out because if those
cab are truly short on nutrition now. Can
do address to address it. Yeah. Excellent. We'll
appreciate you guys answering that question, and let's
go ahead and get doctor Lube in and
talk about antibiotics. Brian, I'm gonna turn to
you first. We've had a couple listener questions
along the same general theme and
I'll para.
They're basically
how do antibiotics work. We've Seems like a
pretty simple question that you should be able
to answer in 30 seconds, but I'm sure
you'll be able to expand a little bit
further. Maybe a little bit Yeah. Maybe a
little bit. Yeah. Give us a a little
bit of background because I think the root
of this question is
how should I use them and when should
I use? Them, but tell us a little
bit about how antibiotics do work. Yeah. And
and first of all, I think it's great
that producers want more information and to be
more knowledgeable, not. Just because
they wanna do better on their operations,
but a lot of times they get asked
questions from consumers. And so, you know, if
you're at educated user of antibiotics.
I I think that
portrays us in AAA much better light as
far as how we use antibiotics and antibiotics
stewardship. So I I think that that quest
for information knowledge is great. And I'll I'll
just say, I think probably the best resource
is is talk to your veterinarian. And because
a lot of times,
the reasons why we might choose 1 antibiotic
over another aren't necessarily related to activity. There
there are a lot of factors we think
about when we decide that this is the
antibiotic we wanna use for this particular case.
But to answer your question. So how do
they work?
Essentially, an antibiotic is is a chemical,
and it somehow,
interferes with bacterial growth or replication. That's the
that's the most basic
definition. And there are lots of ways that
they can do that. Lots of different ways.
So we have We have antibiotics that inhibit
bacterial cell wall growth. We have antibiotics that
inhibit
bacterial protein synthesis.
We have antibiotics that inhibit
bacterial replication by interfering with Dna and rna
for the bacteria. And 1 of the things
to keep in mind too. The antibiotics we
have
are good antibiotics because that they have selective
activity against the bacterial protein synthesis,
but not mammal million or human or bo
protein synthesis. And so, you know, 1 of
the questions we have is why don't we
have more bikes.
It's not because we can't develop molecules that
kill bacteria because they aren't safe because a
lot of these processes,
protein synthesis Dna replication, mammals also have those
processes. Yeah. So effective antibiotics that us so
damage the host are not very useful. Not
very useful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So as
we think about those different mechanisms, but there's
also
different classes or types of antibiotics. And
those impact both how we use them, and
I'm gonna say how we talk about them.
For this conversation. So the 1 I'm thinking
of is Ion fours. And Bob, would you
qualify Ion fours as an antibiotic and what
makes them may be different or unique than
some of our other antibiotics. Yeah. So an
antibiotic basically is just a natural substance that
is produced
that inhibits other
our other bacteria. And so, Ion,
they the way they work is they change
if you think remember that the rum is
a is a big vat,
with a lot of different bacteria in it
that are breaking down.
Forage feed into usable
products for the rest of the body to
use. The muscles that kidney everything else. And
so that bacterial
population in the room and
it it's a bunch of different types of
bacteria. And so what ion do is they
actually preferential kill some types of bacteria that
aren't as efficient
they produce some byproducts that aren't as useful
to the animal. And so it gives a
kind of a an competitive advantage.
To the bacteria in the room that are
the most efficient at turning forage and feed
into usable,
you know, proteins, energies, carbohydrates
that the volatile fatty acids that that that
the Bo uses. And so it's a really
neat little it's in and again, it's just
kind of moving the the microbial population to
give an advantage to some bacteria and a
disadvantage to others. Well, and the other thing
about the ion for. And again, we talk
about... There are lots of different things
that a veterinarian would consider before they choose.
1 antibiotic over another, in the ion 4s
as far as importance to human medicine. So
that's a factor we would think about Right?
A lot of the antibiotics we use in
Bo production are also
not necessarily the same molecule, but they'll be
in the same family or same class.
As an antibiotic that is used in human
medicine,
the anna fours are the kind of 1
exception and it's because of safety. Right? The
fours aren't safe to use in people.
And so that that has a different regulatory
status when we think about
importance to human medicine,
promoting resistance. So if we use ion force
in cattle production, their they're we've used them
for a long, long time, and there isn't
really evidence that they're promoting resistance in human
bacteria. And so, you know, that... That's a...
Again, 1 of those factors that we think
about
mechanism of action.
We we do... There are different types of
bacteria as kind of Bob mentioned, so we
think about gram positive bacteria versus gram, negative
bacteria,
aerobic bacteria versus aerobic bacteria in
some antibiotics will only work on
gram positives versus gram negative. Their out forces
would be 1 of those examples. Right? So
if we know,
what type of infection we have if we
think about therapeutic uses, What type of infection
we have, we definitely wanna pick a class
of antibiotic that has activity against
that type or if there's a couple different
bacteria that may cause it. Pastor element h,
causing respiratory disease, those are gram negatives. We
wanna pick an antibiotic that has gram negative
spectrum.
Well, and another thing, so specifically for ion
fours, different antibiotics
will go to different tissues. And and they're
delivered in different away. So ion are delivered
orally in the feed, and they tend to
stay in the gut in the digestive tract.
They don't go to the other tissues.
And so that would be, you know, for
those are the types of things that a
veterinarian thinks about when they pick, which antibiotics
uses is well... What tissue does it go
to. What route of administration do we use
so that it gets to the tissue that
I want it to or maybe to not
go to tissues that I don't want it
to. You you mentioned Spectrum Brian. So... A
lot of times they think of... And you'll
hear the term broad spectrum antibody. Does that
mean it gets everything and I could just
use 1 antibiotic and get good at using
that 1, or am I gonna need different
antibiotics for different circumstance?
Well,
actually, broad versus neuro spectrum is
really poorly defined. But I mean, that's the
general concept. Right? Is it broad spectrum,
antibiotic covers
gram positive and gram negatives. Arrow, and. Right?
So they're they're big categories bit even there
are exceptions within those and there's certain there
are particular bacteria within each of those
classifications that
1 antibiotic may get and 1 may not.
Right? And again, kind of boils down to
the mechanism of action, So is it a
protein synthesis inhibitor or a cell wall inhibitor.
But
I And 1 of the things when we
talk about antibiotics and producers getting more information,
we we tend to kinda get... Trapped with
B. It's our biggest disease challenge. And we
often think about B d, and most of
the antibiotics are approved for B for those
reasons. Right?
And if you really if you really wanna
have a discussion and learn more about antibiotics
and why you would choose 1 over another
1. Again, I I would involve a veteran
involve your veterinarian and, but think about different
kinds of cases. So
the antibiotic we choose
for Bo respiratory disease,
caused by Mann jaime
is may not be the same 1 we
choose for my plasma pneumonia or certainly probably
not the same 1 we would choose for
my plasma, arthritis or ear infections. Right? Or
think about foot rot is a different disease
where the spectrum could matter,
and you would pick it... You may pick
a different antibiotic because of the difference. So
think about different disease challenges
and that'll help you get a little more
understanding about different classes and what you should
be using for those diseases. And basically, 3
semesters of that's school. 3 semesters about school
Would help to. But they're in and in
1 of the I did answer 1 of
the listener questions via email. He said, you
know, talk to your veterinarian and We use
formula. So those are... They're basically condensed books
of drug labels. They often talk give a
little background on the drug, how it works,
the class.
Some of them have doses, but, again, you
really need to talk to your veterinarian when
you get into the dose specifics, but they'll
talk about side effects, spec. All the things
we're talking about. That's all kinda condensed in
a formula. And so for for general knowledge,
that's good when you get into the specific
clinical uses,
certainly need to involve your veterinarian. Yeah. Some
of the things that as a veterinarian you
think about is... And and the reason that
we don't want to overuse antibiotics. 1 that
people are probably aware of is is resistance.
We don't wanna...
Select for
resistance where the antibiotics don't work anymore. But
there's other things too.
There are some antibiotics that that might be
kind of hard on the kidney it cause
kidney damage if the animal is dehydrated. So
the animal itself, it might be an antibiotic
that would work if the animal was... Hydrated
and and doing well other than what I'm
trading it for. But if he's dehydrated and
he's... That maybe a really go had bad
choice. The other 1 when we talk about
food animals, animals that are gonna go into
the food system is how long they stick
around the body, so the withdrawal time. So
you know, 1 of the reasons that, we
don't just use antibiotics without thinking about it
is resistance,
side effects.
And
withdrawal time. And so that's... Again, that's... It...
It's kinda complicated pretty fast
and
making wise antibiotic decisions is really part of
what both veterinarians and producers are asked to
do. I think that's important and being able
to
justify your rationale that you selected that specific
drug for that treatment, and that's where you're
working with your veterinarian. And both of you
mentioned
go to the label. The other thing that
I would say, different drug names or different
brand names don't necessarily mean that they are
dramatically different in term... Especially in terms of
class of drug that they're in, meaning they
may work very similarly to something else that's
something that's hard to pick up unless you
have some background knowledge. So talk talk to
your veterinarian and great information. Appreciate both of
you sharing some of that. And appreciate everything
else. That we talked about today. And if
you have a question topic or thing you'd
like us to talk about on future, so
send us an email, Bc at You.