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40 percent death loss in 2 month old

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calves.

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Only from the first calf he

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and occurring within a 3 week span.

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What happened?

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We'll find out today on

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Science with Bc. This is Talks Talk. I'm

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Brad White here with Doctor. Scott Fritz, and

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it's Scott welcome. Interested to get into this

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case with you. How are you this morning?

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You know what we're doing well. This is

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a

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pretty good headline, which many of these cases

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do make at times? Yeah. You have a

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a good start to this 1 in that

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it's a little bit unusual because you've got

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a, a cow calf herd.

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There's some first calf he.

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Some adult cows, both the first calf efforts

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and adult cows have calves.

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The death loss is only occurring. There's in

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cab from first calf efforts, but it had

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occurred at a significant rate and in a

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relatively

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short period of time, and I'm gonna go

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out on a,

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branch here and say, you probably had him

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do crops at the start. Yep.

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It's always a good place to start. So

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this... You know, just like you said, this

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is the

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headline per s, I guess, brings up more

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questions than it does answers.

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And so, you know the fight out that

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there were cows and He and the cab

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were only from the first calf half first

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was a, you know, a step that we

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needed. We also found out that those 2

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populations of cows were managed separately

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So the adult cows were managed basically as

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an isolated herd and the first half he

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were managed as an isolated herd. There was

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no c ming between the 2.

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And so when I say managed, I'm talking

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about winter management from pulling off pasture in

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the fall, run through the winner and now

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it turn out. So these are spring cab,

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and these these calves are a couple months

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old. And the and the first thing, I

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mean, I start thinking about the normal stuff.

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Right? So scour...

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Respiratory disease. They're a little bit since they're

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2 months old. They're a little bit outside

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my window when I would think of a

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big scour outbreak. And respiratory disease while it

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a curves and pre calves. It typically doesn't

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have this high mortality. It may have high

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morbidity, but a lot of times our pre

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calves don't have that high of a mortality.

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It 40 percent. Would that would that be

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kind of your feel? Yeah. And it's, you

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know, this is toxicology so we get to

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ignore infectious disease, but those are always in

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places to start, which we always do. Right?

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And that's you know, trying to... We thought

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the same thing. They're too old for scholars.

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You know, the 40 percent death loss in

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3 weeks and pre week cows from respiratory

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disease.

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Sounds weird, but then we started getting into

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the gross knee crop and they were, you

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know, the practitioner was mentioning some evidence or

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respiratory disease. And so know, I think maybe

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that's the place to start and where we

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kinda get into our our diagnostic work workout.

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Yeah. So what did what did they find

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on just the gross knee crops?

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You know, they were really just saying there

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was pneumonia. They just described it as, you

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know, cra eventual consolidation. There was... They described

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Bro pneumonia is what I got over the

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phone.

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They mentioned that there had been no response

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to inflammatory on microbial therapies of, you know,

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they tried a bunch of different things really

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didn't appreciate any response.

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So in pre winning Beard, I mentioned in

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some of the work that we've done previously,

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it it is about 1 and 5 herd.

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Will have an issue with pre

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B d. And in those herd that have

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an issue with

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pre B d,

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only about 15 to 20 percent of the

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calves are typically affected. Now, certainly, you could

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have a higher outbreak, but but also, I

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mentioned pretty low

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mortality. So it's surprising that these calves would

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be affected

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in that shorter of time frame and actually

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at this time because most of our pre

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B would occur around the 456

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month of age range in those calves. So...

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But they're finding it here, is it is

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it possible that it... It's just b or

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did they have any adjunct signs that they

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saw it either in the live cab or...

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At bankruptcy.

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Yeah. So the, I guess the clinical syndrome

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they described. I guess we should back up

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just a little bit. So these caps had

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been branded and vaccinated at branding at and

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then turned out. And by I turned out,

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as they were let out, they were trail

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down the road, and I don't remember how

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far It was over a mile that they

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walked these pears down the road,

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and turned into a pasture.

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And so you have that kind of

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temporal

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association with processing. Right? So that, you know,

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either some questions there,

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But as they got out on pasture, they

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would see these calves, they said they would

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be somewhat, you know, clinically normal, then they

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would go stern ladder

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to really rec overcome and then die pretty

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quickly, you know, within a couple hours enough

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time where they could see them, try to

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do something, but then they would die anyway.

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And I only those and a little bit

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different management for the calves from he than

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the calves from cows and that the calves

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from cows weren't trail as far.

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But everybody got the same things at processing

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or branding time. Right? Yep. Same, yeah, Same

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shop protocol, everything.

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So that makes it a little bit lower

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on my list that there's something going on

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with the vaccines or any other procedures that

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we're done. So just because it's only affecting

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this 1 group or seems to be affecting

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them worse than the others. So at at

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gross knee, basically

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saw some pneumonia,

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but that... They kinda wanted to keep going

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because didn't see enough necessarily there that they

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thought was causing all of the problems.

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No. And they, you know, kinda mentioned with

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the rec if those calves would try to

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stand and they would, you know, you get

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some tremble in the muscles of the high

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legs.

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They they... The word they do use was

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weakness.

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And so, you know, which certainly could be

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with respiratory disease, but like we've talked it

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just doesn't.

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It would be abnormal for pre winning respiratory

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disease to have that big of a problem.

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So we recommend just sending in as we

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always do a pretty robust submission just to

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make sure that we can rule out things,

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you know, if we don't have, we can't

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do it, but if we have, it doesn't

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mean we need to test it kind of

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thing. Just Yep. And so what what all

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did they send in? What samples did you

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want them to send? So would... We always

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talk about liver and kidney for talks, liver

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the metabolic organ and kidneys tip? Weekly ex

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excruciating, heart, spleen,

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brain, if we can get it ocular fluid,

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those kind of things lung in this case,

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wouldn't it add some lesions in it. Weekly

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and then we wanted some skeletal muscle just

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because of the... You know, they described the

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weakness. And honestly, if we can get heart,

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diaphragm tongue and skeletal

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we can do a pretty robust rule out

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of anything that causes a from a to

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perspective. And so are you looking at fresh

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and fixed samples of those? Of those tissues

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or do you want

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fixed only or fresh only? Fresh fix both.

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Yeah. So the pistol pathology needs the fixed?

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Typically,

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toxicology needs fresh,

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and culture and that kind of thing also

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needs fresh tissue. So... So when we talk

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about sending those samples, especially fresh sample, and

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let's say we're in a time of warm

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weather or extreme cold weather. What kind of

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care do Have to take in packing those

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or how quick do I need to get

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them to the lab to make sure that

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the fresh samples are fresh.

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Do the best you can. So it's... If

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you can get them out and on ice

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as fast as you can if you can't

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ship them that day, throw them in the

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fridge.

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Ideally, you can get them in a box

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on ice and get them on their way

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as fast as you possibly can. If I

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have to hold them overnight, should Put... You

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you mentioned the fridge or should I drop

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them in the freezer? Does that change anything

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if I freeze and t samples or or

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would you rather have them just chilled.

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It really depends on your timeline. So if

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it's Thursday on holiday weekend and you can't

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ship it till Monday, we're not gonna get

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until Tuesday, freezing, it's probably not a bad

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idea. You don't freeze anything you wanna look

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at under the microscope, though. Don't don't freeze

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any of the his paths that the fixed

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sample. Keep the fixed stuff just informal,

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Otherwise, if it's just gonna be overnight, I

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would just keep them in the fridge. K.

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Excellent. Alright. So you got some samples in

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this case and what did you start to

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see on the his pathology?

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So, on his path only they confirmed an

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pneumonia, it's not that difficult to see. And

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I've looked at the slides, there was, you

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know, there was some pretty severe consolidation in

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some areas of those lungs.

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Think we had lungs off of 3 different

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calves. 2 of them had pretty severe pneumonia.

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1 of them had none at all. And

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so, you know, it's still dead, but it

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didn't have the pneumonia. So kinda...

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You start questioning things.

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Did some his path on the muscle and

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started seeing degeneration necrosis some mineral visualization of

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those my sites both in the cardiac muscle

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and in the skeletal muscle.

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What does that what does that make you

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think of when you see that? What are

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your differentials for a my in a calf

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young?

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Half this young, the first things, vitamin E

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or s millennium, you know, kind of a

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nutritional,

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other less likely things, Ion forces would be

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on that list. Yeah. To to with the

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ion for and the vitamin e look similarly.

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Again, I'm not a pathologist, so maybe there

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are some subtle differences, but... Yeah but we

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gotta loop all my office together in that

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way. K. So let's explore that Ion for

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1 just a bit because, if if they

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had an ina

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exposure to a higher dose of ion, say

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there was a mixing error in a creep

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feed,

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that might fit in the scenario? These cab

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are still a little bit young to be

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eating much, But is is something like that

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possible. Is that what you're describing with... When

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you say on forth? Yeah. That's possible. And

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we've seen some... We've seen some cases. There

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are ion fours in dr products

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that are not meant to be dr, but

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are dr anyway,

267
00:09:11,740 --> 00:09:13,882
that we've seen some issues with that, The

268
00:09:13,882 --> 00:09:16,025
dose, they're just not a big safety factor

269
00:09:16,025 --> 00:09:17,850
on those when you use those concentrated products,

270
00:09:18,009 --> 00:09:20,008
It's hard to do that. It's So a

271
00:09:20,008 --> 00:09:21,913
a dr that they would be administering to

272
00:09:21,913 --> 00:09:24,453
calves for some other disease that has an

273
00:09:24,453 --> 00:09:26,993
eye for in it if they overdose these

274
00:09:26,993 --> 00:09:27,707
little calves.

275
00:09:28,278 --> 00:09:30,182
You certainly could see an issue. Yeah. Certainly

276
00:09:30,182 --> 00:09:32,721
could. And typically with cattle, the lesions are

277
00:09:32,721 --> 00:09:34,864
mainly isolated in the cardiac muscle.

278
00:09:35,593 --> 00:09:38,373
In this particular case, the skeletal muscle lesions

279
00:09:38,373 --> 00:09:39,961
were more severe, so that also made a

280
00:09:39,961 --> 00:09:41,073
little less likely for us.

281
00:09:41,868 --> 00:09:44,028
It's confusing though when you go to Know

282
00:09:44,028 --> 00:09:46,420
this is Bo science, but in in small

283
00:09:46,420 --> 00:09:47,775
rum it's and pigs, it's more of a

284
00:09:47,775 --> 00:09:50,724
skeletal muscle issue. But in in cattle, on

285
00:09:50,724 --> 00:09:54,077
toxicity mainly cardiac. Yep. So it's still 1

286
00:09:54,077 --> 00:09:55,504
of the things on our list and you

287
00:09:55,504 --> 00:09:57,488
wanna investigate. I think it's important to talk

288
00:09:57,488 --> 00:10:00,387
about because sometimes we use... On for so

289
00:10:00,445 --> 00:10:00,945
ubiquitous.

290
00:10:01,721 --> 00:10:04,432
We forget that they have those toxic principles.

291
00:10:04,672 --> 00:10:06,027
So and we know what in another species.

292
00:10:06,107 --> 00:10:08,260
Right? There's other species way more sensitive.

293
00:10:08,754 --> 00:10:11,383
Than cattle. But in in this case, you

294
00:10:11,383 --> 00:10:14,331
did some investigation see and and basically confirmed

295
00:10:14,331 --> 00:10:17,438
no ion for exposure that we could track

296
00:10:17,438 --> 00:10:19,285
down in any way. Yeah. They didn't have

297
00:10:19,285 --> 00:10:20,718
creep feet out yet. They had just been

298
00:10:20,718 --> 00:10:23,028
turned in. They weren't giving anything at the

299
00:10:23,028 --> 00:10:24,541
time. Of, you know, I've we've seen some

300
00:10:24,541 --> 00:10:25,838
cases even where people

301
00:10:26,214 --> 00:10:29,177
bolus of Mu really, which is obviously not

302
00:10:29,177 --> 00:10:29,974
outs it's meant to be used,

303
00:10:30,850 --> 00:10:32,683
but there were some thoughts that it would

304
00:10:32,683 --> 00:10:35,806
maybe protect from Cox city, which know, anyway,

305
00:10:36,045 --> 00:10:37,240
That would be the reason people be using

306
00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:39,072
it. Especially in cab of this age is

307
00:10:39,072 --> 00:10:41,483
worried about Cox City. Right. Right? So

308
00:10:42,019 --> 00:10:43,930
here, we don't think On for and it's

309
00:10:43,930 --> 00:10:46,418
got... Skeletal muscle involvement. So you're leaning more

310
00:10:46,418 --> 00:10:49,450
towards vitamin e, deficiency, a lot of times

311
00:10:49,450 --> 00:10:51,365
when we talk about vitamin e s millennium

312
00:10:51,365 --> 00:10:53,540
is is part of that discussion. Did you

313
00:10:53,540 --> 00:10:55,620
do any follow up tests for vitamin e

314
00:10:55,620 --> 00:10:58,660
and or millennium? Yeah. So we we'll typically

315
00:10:58,660 --> 00:11:00,914
do vitamin e and millennium and liver. Most

316
00:11:00,914 --> 00:11:02,987
mortem on these cases. And the s millennium,

317
00:11:03,306 --> 00:11:05,698
in my experience is less likely. And I...

318
00:11:05,938 --> 00:11:07,613
Part of that's because Sole palladium is legally

319
00:11:07,613 --> 00:11:09,686
regulated everybody knows that we need it. And

320
00:11:09,686 --> 00:11:12,167
so it's typically supplied in Cal mineral, like

321
00:11:12,167 --> 00:11:13,916
it's supposed to be... We just don't see

322
00:11:13,916 --> 00:11:16,699
a s millennium deficiency that often. And those

323
00:11:16,699 --> 00:11:18,701
2 things and and maybe it's just as

324
00:11:18,860 --> 00:11:21,641
I remember it, linked together vitamin E millennium,

325
00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:24,263
but you're saying you see vitamin e deficiency

326
00:11:24,263 --> 00:11:26,273
way more commonly than us millennium

327
00:11:26,726 --> 00:11:29,279
deficiency. See even if they're in a s

328
00:11:29,279 --> 00:11:31,974
millennium deficient area. Yes. So and honestly, the

329
00:11:31,974 --> 00:11:34,194
s millennium deficient area seem like we run

330
00:11:34,194 --> 00:11:36,062
into more s millennium toxic

331
00:11:36,439 --> 00:11:38,034
in those cases, and I think it's just

332
00:11:38,034 --> 00:11:39,071
over supplementation.

333
00:11:39,709 --> 00:11:41,623
You know, the areas of the country with

334
00:11:41,623 --> 00:11:43,297
high sal palladium and forage and that kind

335
00:11:43,297 --> 00:11:44,985
of thing I already know it. And so

336
00:11:44,985 --> 00:11:46,894
they're less likely to overdo it, and I

337
00:11:46,894 --> 00:11:50,019
think. What signs would I see with millennium

338
00:11:50,156 --> 00:11:53,194
deficiency versus toxic? See The deficiency is what

339
00:11:53,194 --> 00:11:55,582
is... It been classically described as white muscle

340
00:11:55,582 --> 00:11:57,572
disease, and there... It's always linked together vitamin

341
00:11:57,572 --> 00:11:58,686
e millennium deficiency.

342
00:11:59,576 --> 00:12:01,645
And that's it's typically... I mean, what we're

343
00:12:01,645 --> 00:12:03,793
talking about here is is pretty much how

344
00:12:03,793 --> 00:12:04,429
it's described.

345
00:12:04,986 --> 00:12:05,543
You... It's a...

346
00:12:06,737 --> 00:12:09,297
You get pale muscles they're... You get necrosis

347
00:12:09,297 --> 00:12:10,569
mineral visualization that kind of thing.

348
00:12:11,364 --> 00:12:13,748
S toxicity. There it depends if we're talking

349
00:12:13,748 --> 00:12:15,736
the acute form or the chronic form. The

350
00:12:15,736 --> 00:12:17,405
acute is more of a cardiac collapse.

351
00:12:18,135 --> 00:12:19,724
And so you get... You know, you... It's

352
00:12:19,724 --> 00:12:21,709
kinda hard to distinguish sometimes, but you get

353
00:12:21,709 --> 00:12:23,139
this big fl be hard and a bunch

354
00:12:23,139 --> 00:12:25,204
of fluid backup, and they... You know, they'll...

355
00:12:25,934 --> 00:12:28,167
It's usually after an injection, and they're gonna

356
00:12:28,167 --> 00:12:30,002
die within 24, 48 hours.

357
00:12:30,959 --> 00:12:32,554
The chronic form then is the hair and

358
00:12:32,554 --> 00:12:34,070
of lesions that we've all been, you know,

359
00:12:34,389 --> 00:12:35,799
I we think about it more in horse

360
00:12:35,919 --> 00:12:37,675
you get the horizontal cracks that never grow

361
00:12:37,675 --> 00:12:37,835
out.

362
00:12:38,553 --> 00:12:40,149
And those oils will actually s off if

363
00:12:40,149 --> 00:12:41,746
you give them enough time. You know, the

364
00:12:41,746 --> 00:12:43,182
hair gets pretty brittle. So you get ce

365
00:12:43,182 --> 00:12:46,235
titanium that supplement... As that substitutes and ke

366
00:12:46,235 --> 00:12:47,034
makes it pretty weak.

367
00:12:47,835 --> 00:12:49,274
So you get some hair breakage and that

368
00:12:49,274 --> 00:12:51,195
kind of thing. So... And and that would

369
00:12:51,195 --> 00:12:53,115
be the more chronic form of s millennium.

370
00:12:53,448 --> 00:12:53,948
Toxicity.

371
00:12:54,323 --> 00:12:55,515
And in in this case,

372
00:12:56,151 --> 00:12:58,854
s millennium normal. So let's let's talk vitamin

373
00:12:58,854 --> 00:13:00,682
e a little bit. What are the expected

374
00:13:00,682 --> 00:13:02,590
signs that you would see with vitamin e,

375
00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:05,486
deficiency and is it possible to clinically

376
00:13:05,860 --> 00:13:09,034
differentiate it from millennium deficiency? No. It's it's

377
00:13:09,034 --> 00:13:11,040
also would be white muscle. Disease, and you

378
00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:13,840
can't separate it until you do some analysis

379
00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:15,519
like we did post mortem, it would be

380
00:13:15,519 --> 00:13:18,593
identical. K. So back to these cases... Grossly

381
00:13:18,650 --> 00:13:20,401
with this information in hand,

382
00:13:21,038 --> 00:13:23,027
did you... Were you able to look at

383
00:13:23,027 --> 00:13:24,618
the heart or talk to the veterinarian that

384
00:13:24,618 --> 00:13:26,130
was involved and say, okay, what did the

385
00:13:26,130 --> 00:13:27,658
what did the hearts look like that we

386
00:13:27,658 --> 00:13:30,372
see any signs of of heart disease? We

387
00:13:30,372 --> 00:13:32,367
asked and even, you know, how... What was

388
00:13:32,367 --> 00:13:33,884
the color of the skeletal muscle, and that

389
00:13:33,884 --> 00:13:35,615
can be hard to appreciate. I think It

390
00:13:35,893 --> 00:13:37,562
especially if it's weed need crops to him

391
00:13:37,562 --> 00:13:39,709
and if it's summer winter, what I? I

392
00:13:39,709 --> 00:13:41,777
think cat, young calves are pale anyway. You

393
00:13:41,777 --> 00:13:42,810
know, a lot of them are born iron

394
00:13:42,810 --> 00:13:44,498
are fish deficient. I... It's hard for me

395
00:13:44,498 --> 00:13:45,695
to sort that out. And you've seen V.

396
00:13:45,854 --> 00:13:48,966
Right? It's pretty pale and Yeah. I I

397
00:13:48,966 --> 00:13:50,004
don't put a lot of faith, I guess,

398
00:13:50,083 --> 00:13:51,360
in the color of muscle at and knee

399
00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:53,925
grabs. Too. Yeah. Hard to tell. Would you

400
00:13:53,925 --> 00:13:56,416
expect the hearts to be enlarged or miss?

401
00:13:57,111 --> 00:13:58,705
No. I don't think I would. You know,

402
00:13:58,784 --> 00:14:00,377
there... They may be a little bit more

403
00:14:00,377 --> 00:14:02,859
fl team you know, you may appreciate some

404
00:14:02,859 --> 00:14:04,927
congestion in different body cavities, but you might

405
00:14:04,927 --> 00:14:07,416
not. Yeah. Because in these in these little

406
00:14:07,552 --> 00:14:10,293
calves, you you'd expect that heart to be

407
00:14:10,668 --> 00:14:12,757
relatively tu and

408
00:14:13,131 --> 00:14:15,618
should certainly be heart shaped. So any

409
00:14:15,928 --> 00:14:18,178
any fl ness would seem to be pretty

410
00:14:18,235 --> 00:14:19,826
abnormal for a lot of these calves. But

411
00:14:19,826 --> 00:14:21,337
they didn't they didn't see any of that

412
00:14:21,337 --> 00:14:22,394
as you talk through

413
00:14:22,864 --> 00:14:24,773
So to tell me a little bit about

414
00:14:24,773 --> 00:14:28,273
the process of vitamin e deficiency, because I'm

415
00:14:28,273 --> 00:14:29,307
trying to think through...

416
00:14:30,756 --> 00:14:32,989
What would be their typical source of item

417
00:14:32,989 --> 00:14:35,062
e, how much storage reserves do they have?

418
00:14:35,222 --> 00:14:37,375
Would they have got it from their dams?

419
00:14:37,534 --> 00:14:39,461
Should they get it in the milk? Tell

420
00:14:39,461 --> 00:14:41,445
tell me about the process of vitamin e.

421
00:14:42,079 --> 00:14:44,063
So the the vitamin e status of the

422
00:14:44,063 --> 00:14:46,047
calf is gonna be dependent upon the c.

423
00:14:46,778 --> 00:14:48,294
So they're gonna get most of, you know,

424
00:14:48,453 --> 00:14:50,367
it transfers across the placenta a little bit

425
00:14:50,367 --> 00:14:52,223
better than vitamin a, but I would just

426
00:14:52,282 --> 00:14:54,674
ignore that. Everything they're gonna get gonna come

427
00:14:54,674 --> 00:14:56,842
through the C, and so it's all lost

428
00:14:56,842 --> 00:14:58,830
quality. It's probably gonna be related to the

429
00:14:58,830 --> 00:14:59,864
ration of those he.

430
00:15:00,660 --> 00:15:02,330
As they were fed through the winter. And,

431
00:15:02,410 --> 00:15:03,228
you know, it

432
00:15:03,617 --> 00:15:05,126
I was worried about the calf from the

433
00:15:05,126 --> 00:15:07,032
cows on this her too. Just, you know,

434
00:15:07,111 --> 00:15:08,541
they could have been teeter on the edge

435
00:15:08,541 --> 00:15:09,811
and we just didn't push them as hard

436
00:15:09,811 --> 00:15:11,814
as we did on this group, and And,

437
00:15:11,894 --> 00:15:13,492
you know, when I've seen big outbreaks like

438
00:15:13,492 --> 00:15:15,889
this, it almost seems like there's some sort

439
00:15:15,889 --> 00:15:18,126
of physical exercise that goes into it to

440
00:15:18,126 --> 00:15:19,085
set them up to have a big...

441
00:15:19,818 --> 00:15:21,722
Big episode like this. So if we have

442
00:15:21,722 --> 00:15:24,023
a my skeletal the muscle cardiac muscle,

443
00:15:25,054 --> 00:15:25,554
exercise

444
00:15:26,006 --> 00:15:28,721
would not be the recommended course. Right Really.

445
00:15:29,119 --> 00:15:31,665
Could help be exacerbate whatever clinical signs we're

446
00:15:31,665 --> 00:15:33,893
seeing. Yeah. So it it's hard to sort

447
00:15:33,893 --> 00:15:35,485
out, You know, we're we're this far after

448
00:15:35,485 --> 00:15:37,235
the fact and trying to go back and

449
00:15:37,568 --> 00:15:39,877
You know, maybe the ration was formulated appropriately,

450
00:15:40,036 --> 00:15:42,265
but the vitamin pack had been on in

451
00:15:42,265 --> 00:15:43,618
storage for a long time. And we know

452
00:15:43,618 --> 00:15:45,345
those fast soluble vitamins will

453
00:15:45,704 --> 00:15:47,699
decrease with storage and they can almost deplete

454
00:15:47,699 --> 00:15:49,296
to where there's almost none in there depending

455
00:15:49,296 --> 00:15:51,850
on storage conditions. And when you try to

456
00:15:51,850 --> 00:15:53,766
go sort back through that on a product

457
00:15:53,766 --> 00:15:55,777
that's already gone. It it's really difficult to

458
00:15:55,777 --> 00:15:58,489
do. So in the... You said the vitamin

459
00:15:58,489 --> 00:16:00,745
e's is gonna transfer mostly in the c,

460
00:16:01,601 --> 00:16:03,948
we'll... That calf get any from

461
00:16:04,403 --> 00:16:07,586
external sources as he's nursing the dam or

462
00:16:07,586 --> 00:16:10,230
once he's passed the classroom and his got

463
00:16:10,230 --> 00:16:12,070
has clothes. He's not gonna get any vitamin

464
00:16:12,070 --> 00:16:14,149
any from anywhere else? Does he get some

465
00:16:14,149 --> 00:16:15,750
from the milk or anywhere else in the

466
00:16:15,750 --> 00:16:17,110
environment? There won't be a lot of milk.

467
00:16:17,269 --> 00:16:19,596
It'll be once he starts. You know, consuming

468
00:16:19,596 --> 00:16:21,344
his own feed, he will, you know, when

469
00:16:21,344 --> 00:16:22,933
you get... When he transitions off a milk

470
00:16:22,933 --> 00:16:23,251
diet,

471
00:16:23,886 --> 00:16:25,419
but they'll... You know, they,

472
00:16:25,729 --> 00:16:28,202
the way nature happens the cow intentionally loads

473
00:16:28,202 --> 00:16:30,275
that calf or whatever he's gonna need for

474
00:16:30,275 --> 00:16:32,030
storage for the first couple months of life.

475
00:16:32,349 --> 00:16:34,343
And is that stored in the liver, and

476
00:16:34,343 --> 00:16:36,271
then he uses it from there? Stored and

477
00:16:36,271 --> 00:16:38,259
liver. And it's it's mainly an antioxidant. And

478
00:16:38,259 --> 00:16:40,009
so I think what really sets these calves

479
00:16:40,009 --> 00:16:41,861
up as you go through that big physical

480
00:16:41,918 --> 00:16:43,826
exert type thing. In this case, walking them,

481
00:16:44,145 --> 00:16:45,594
yep mile and a half down the road,

482
00:16:45,833 --> 00:16:47,745
you know, which doesn't sound that far, but

483
00:16:47,824 --> 00:16:49,498
Yeah teeter on the edge. I think that's

484
00:16:49,498 --> 00:16:50,932
enough, and you just start getting some of

485
00:16:50,932 --> 00:16:53,401
those reactive oxygen species from the muscle damage

486
00:16:53,401 --> 00:16:55,090
and they just can't handle it. And does

487
00:16:55,090 --> 00:16:57,562
that tie in in any way to our

488
00:16:57,562 --> 00:16:59,078
pneumonia that we found in a few of

489
00:16:59,078 --> 00:17:01,310
these caps? Is this with this have been

490
00:17:01,310 --> 00:17:03,559
helping our immune system or can't the lack

491
00:17:03,559 --> 00:17:05,880
of it, thereby hurting the immune system? Yeah.

492
00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:08,359
I think it's it's safe to say that

493
00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:10,759
the vitamin need deficiency didn't help with the

494
00:17:10,759 --> 00:17:12,279
pneumonia stuff. It I'd probably set them up.

495
00:17:13,095 --> 00:17:14,535
The fact that there were calves that were

496
00:17:14,535 --> 00:17:16,934
dead without pneumonia, I think gives credence that

497
00:17:16,934 --> 00:17:18,934
the pneumonia is more of a secondary issue.

498
00:17:19,414 --> 00:17:22,626
So if you're thinking about preventing this, next

499
00:17:22,626 --> 00:17:23,581
time. Obviously,

500
00:17:24,377 --> 00:17:25,593
vitamin E management

501
00:17:26,208 --> 00:17:27,799
sounds like cow,

502
00:17:28,357 --> 00:17:30,744
nutrition, he for nutrition more so than something

503
00:17:30,824 --> 00:17:33,010
I would do with the calves. Yeah. Which

504
00:17:33,465 --> 00:17:34,578
common for a lot of the things we

505
00:17:34,578 --> 00:17:36,408
deal with. Right? Is that that nutrition on

506
00:17:36,408 --> 00:17:38,078
the cow herd is very, very important. And

507
00:17:38,078 --> 00:17:39,924
when you it's kinda of the bottom of

508
00:17:39,924 --> 00:17:41,914
the pyramid and when it's faulty then the

509
00:17:41,914 --> 00:17:44,302
pyramid doesn't stack very high. So do I

510
00:17:44,302 --> 00:17:47,422
need to have a specific diet? Those cows

511
00:17:47,422 --> 00:17:49,413
are on during in a certain period or

512
00:17:49,413 --> 00:17:51,724
or rather, I need to really concentrate the

513
00:17:51,724 --> 00:17:54,034
last few months before they have or is

514
00:17:54,034 --> 00:17:55,251
it a year round

515
00:17:55,867 --> 00:17:57,396
nutrition that I... Should be worried about on

516
00:17:57,396 --> 00:17:59,151
that cow to prevent this in the caps.

517
00:17:59,550 --> 00:18:02,023
So vitamin ease a fat soluble volume vitamin

518
00:18:02,023 --> 00:18:03,458
and they should pick it up as they're

519
00:18:03,458 --> 00:18:05,851
forging naturally, and there should be some in

520
00:18:05,851 --> 00:18:09,062
the stored forge, but that's gonna deeply even

521
00:18:09,062 --> 00:18:11,320
in the store forge about the time where

522
00:18:11,539 --> 00:18:13,696
that last trimester where we're really ramping up

523
00:18:13,696 --> 00:18:15,295
and their metabolic demands through the roof,

524
00:18:16,109 --> 00:18:18,589
but honestly, most winter call rations are already

525
00:18:18,589 --> 00:18:20,829
formulated enough to provide that. It just... That's

526
00:18:20,829 --> 00:18:22,509
what begs the question. We don't really know

527
00:18:22,509 --> 00:18:23,470
why in this case.

528
00:18:24,042 --> 00:18:26,288
Was there something that happened either with the

529
00:18:26,343 --> 00:18:27,931
formulation or the actual product that went in

530
00:18:27,931 --> 00:18:30,232
there, something there was not right to set

531
00:18:30,232 --> 00:18:32,877
these calls up? So you're saying in in

532
00:18:32,877 --> 00:18:35,354
hay, we say store forage. I'm thinking hay.

533
00:18:35,594 --> 00:18:37,612
And if I make the hay in the

534
00:18:37,911 --> 00:18:38,790
early summer,

535
00:18:39,443 --> 00:18:41,033
Store it all the way through to the

536
00:18:41,033 --> 00:18:43,418
end of the next winter right for my

537
00:18:43,418 --> 00:18:45,087
cows are having. I wouldn't expect to have

538
00:18:45,087 --> 00:18:46,677
a lot of vitamin e in my hay,

539
00:18:47,328 --> 00:18:49,235
But if I'm providing some sort of supplement,

540
00:18:49,473 --> 00:18:50,586
that's where they would get it. Is that...

541
00:18:50,745 --> 00:18:52,890
Am I yep. Hearing that correctly? Because I

542
00:18:52,890 --> 00:18:54,876
kinda think the same thing vitamin a would

543
00:18:54,876 --> 00:18:57,121
be similar? Yeah. We... You know, we kinda

544
00:18:57,121 --> 00:18:58,875
loop them to lump them together and it's

545
00:18:58,875 --> 00:19:01,986
all in green, growing forage, fresh forge is

546
00:19:01,986 --> 00:19:04,379
the perfect source. Those cows are built to

547
00:19:04,379 --> 00:19:05,256
extract that and store it.

548
00:19:06,069 --> 00:19:07,905
You know, they they're used to not having

549
00:19:07,905 --> 00:19:09,501
that during the winter, and so they store

550
00:19:09,501 --> 00:19:11,017
it up over the summer,

551
00:19:11,656 --> 00:19:13,172
but it's, you know, it's not hard to

552
00:19:13,172 --> 00:19:15,580
supplement them, and like you're saying through a

553
00:19:15,580 --> 00:19:17,915
vitamin and mineral pack and some sort of

554
00:19:18,133 --> 00:19:20,207
concentrator supplement that they're feeding over the winter.

555
00:19:20,526 --> 00:19:22,998
Now would you give in this case, if

556
00:19:22,998 --> 00:19:24,250
we go back to this case when you

557
00:19:24,369 --> 00:19:25,170
figured this out,

558
00:19:25,730 --> 00:19:28,130
what's the first action treatment wise? Do you

559
00:19:28,130 --> 00:19:30,690
go in and give those cab an an

560
00:19:30,690 --> 00:19:32,105
injection of Ad and e or do you

561
00:19:32,224 --> 00:19:34,218
do do you do something else for them

562
00:19:34,218 --> 00:19:36,450
or try to provide mineral at that point?

563
00:19:36,929 --> 00:19:38,922
So the easiest band aid is to inject

564
00:19:38,922 --> 00:19:41,369
it, and there... There's a plethora of... Do

565
00:19:41,649 --> 00:19:43,484
vitamin e and S millennium products out there.

566
00:19:43,883 --> 00:19:45,240
I don't know that one's any better than

567
00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:45,559
the other.

568
00:19:46,277 --> 00:19:47,953
The challenge with this 1 is they return

569
00:19:47,953 --> 00:19:50,597
to pasture and that sure was enormous in

570
00:19:50,597 --> 00:19:52,269
this case and that wasn't gonna get done.

571
00:19:52,985 --> 00:19:54,417
Mean, so I guess you just hope you

572
00:19:54,417 --> 00:19:56,486
get through it until they start forging on

573
00:19:56,486 --> 00:19:58,316
their own and and picking it up naturally.

574
00:19:58,729 --> 00:20:00,723
Yeah. So if these, you know, if these

575
00:20:00,723 --> 00:20:03,355
calves were still wherever they ka hadn't gone

576
00:20:03,355 --> 00:20:05,668
through yet, and they were seeing it prior

577
00:20:05,668 --> 00:20:07,263
to the processing, we sure could have had

578
00:20:07,263 --> 00:20:08,481
an injection, but

579
00:20:08,793 --> 00:20:10,222
timing didn't work out in our favor in

580
00:20:10,222 --> 00:20:11,969
this case. So let's say we could do

581
00:20:11,969 --> 00:20:13,796
an injection. And in this case, up a

582
00:20:13,796 --> 00:20:14,113
little bit,

583
00:20:14,828 --> 00:20:16,654
maybe based on your earlier comments, I'm a

584
00:20:16,654 --> 00:20:18,257
little bit concerned because I've got a lot

585
00:20:18,257 --> 00:20:20,481
of times vitamin e and s millennium are

586
00:20:20,481 --> 00:20:22,784
together? These guys are normal on millennium, They're

587
00:20:22,784 --> 00:20:24,451
low on vitamin e. Do I have to

588
00:20:24,451 --> 00:20:26,778
worry about inducing a s millennium toxicity.

589
00:20:27,230 --> 00:20:28,064
A by

590
00:20:29,159 --> 00:20:30,914
creating a problem by fixing the last 1.

591
00:20:31,313 --> 00:20:32,828
I would say no. And it's...

592
00:20:33,705 --> 00:20:35,859
As long as you're injecting the proper appropriate

593
00:20:35,859 --> 00:20:37,710
volume for the weight to the calf. You

594
00:20:37,710 --> 00:20:39,630
shouldn't. Let most spike in the liver for

595
00:20:39,630 --> 00:20:41,710
the first 24, 48 hours and then they'll

596
00:20:41,710 --> 00:20:43,390
eliminate that. And we've got... There's quite a

597
00:20:43,390 --> 00:20:45,150
bit of work showing the kinetics of that.

598
00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:48,688
It... Where we see the the acute injectable

599
00:20:48,744 --> 00:20:50,732
toxic c is when it's a, you know,

600
00:20:50,891 --> 00:20:52,402
we've set the syringe for 6 way calves,

601
00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:54,326
and then we got a tailed 200 pounder,

602
00:20:54,486 --> 00:20:55,522
you know, at the end of the cabin

603
00:20:55,522 --> 00:20:57,195
period comes through, and that's where the problem

604
00:20:57,195 --> 00:20:59,346
is. So be sure if you're given those

605
00:20:59,346 --> 00:21:00,802
injections, especially with s millennium

606
00:21:01,338 --> 00:21:03,250
that we're at the right weight for the

607
00:21:03,250 --> 00:21:05,505
right calf, meaning, I may have to change

608
00:21:05,505 --> 00:21:07,505
it. If I'm running through calves that are

609
00:21:07,505 --> 00:21:09,265
born over a hundred day period. I'm gonna

610
00:21:09,265 --> 00:21:11,518
have a a big weight period in that

611
00:21:11,518 --> 00:21:14,073
group. Yep. That's a... You know, that's at

612
00:21:14,073 --> 00:21:16,308
least where we see it. So anything else

613
00:21:16,308 --> 00:21:18,384
that you would do in this case, Ideally,

614
00:21:18,543 --> 00:21:20,220
we'd give an injection, but they couldn't do

615
00:21:20,220 --> 00:21:20,872
it here,

616
00:21:21,667 --> 00:21:23,575
so they got them on green grass,

617
00:21:24,370 --> 00:21:26,516
anything that you would do either to manage

618
00:21:26,516 --> 00:21:28,265
it now or prevent it in the future

619
00:21:28,265 --> 00:21:29,910
besides what we've discussed

620
00:21:30,587 --> 00:21:32,260
We kinda wrestled with that. You do you

621
00:21:32,260 --> 00:21:33,853
try to round them back up and just

622
00:21:33,853 --> 00:21:36,164
inject him, but we just talked about how

623
00:21:36,164 --> 00:21:37,916
exercise kinda sets him up for that and

624
00:21:37,916 --> 00:21:39,271
as big as this pasture as they would

625
00:21:39,271 --> 00:21:40,716
have been some exercise involved.

626
00:21:41,431 --> 00:21:43,497
And so it it really was a kind

627
00:21:43,497 --> 00:21:45,165
of a internal battle on what we do

628
00:21:45,165 --> 00:21:45,483
with them,

629
00:21:46,278 --> 00:21:47,888
and some you know, we're... I guess we're

630
00:21:47,888 --> 00:21:49,566
hoping that the problem has gone away. Now

631
00:21:49,566 --> 00:21:50,386
as far as

632
00:21:50,765 --> 00:21:51,564
trying to avoid it,

633
00:21:52,443 --> 00:21:53,721
this 1, you never would have figured it

634
00:21:53,721 --> 00:21:55,000
out until it started happening.

635
00:21:55,574 --> 00:21:57,744
Because, you know, the the rational was formulated

636
00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:00,290
appropriately. We figured out after the fact, but

637
00:22:00,346 --> 00:22:01,562
there had to been something

638
00:22:01,937 --> 00:22:04,690
either it got missed in the inclusion, the

639
00:22:05,069 --> 00:22:06,589
the mineral pack had been stored for a

640
00:22:06,589 --> 00:22:08,349
lot, I don't know. And we're never gonna

641
00:22:08,349 --> 00:22:10,669
find that out. But something happened there that

642
00:22:10,669 --> 00:22:12,916
didn't... That wasn't supposed to happen, and we

643
00:22:12,916 --> 00:22:14,269
just... Were not gonna figure it out until

644
00:22:14,269 --> 00:22:15,941
you have this kind of disaster on the

645
00:22:15,941 --> 00:22:18,091
other end. So, do you the best you

646
00:22:18,091 --> 00:22:20,099
can to try to prevent it. But then

647
00:22:20,180 --> 00:22:22,519
I think the the other take home here

648
00:22:22,579 --> 00:22:24,740
is relatively early in the process.

649
00:22:25,299 --> 00:22:27,554
They did some further diagnostic. To figure it

650
00:22:27,554 --> 00:22:29,552
out. Right? Sooner you figure this out sooner

651
00:22:29,552 --> 00:22:30,831
we can come up with the solution to

652
00:22:30,831 --> 00:22:32,669
move forward. Yep. Try to make some decisions,

653
00:22:32,829 --> 00:22:34,587
but that obviously, in this case, there was

654
00:22:34,587 --> 00:22:36,585
a lot of balancing going on there. Excellent.

655
00:22:36,744 --> 00:22:39,556
It's any places to find more resources on

656
00:22:39,556 --> 00:22:42,113
vitamin e and or s millennium deficiency? Yeah.

657
00:22:42,273 --> 00:22:44,750
There's some some show notes on the website

658
00:22:44,750 --> 00:22:46,203
and we'll have a... Know, kind of a

659
00:22:46,203 --> 00:22:48,438
white paper right up up there to provide

660
00:22:48,438 --> 00:22:50,433
some more references and sources if anybody wants

661
00:22:50,433 --> 00:22:52,609
to do some more reading. Excellent. There's a

662
00:22:52,668 --> 00:22:54,160
toxicology tab right on the beast

663
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:56,220
website. If you have a

664
00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:58,359
toxicology case you'd like us to talk about,

665
00:22:58,519 --> 00:23:00,119
you can send us an email at bc

666
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:01,580
at k u dot edu d u