1 00:00:07,983 --> 00:00:10,064 Hi, Welcome Bc Couch chat. I'm Brad White. 2 00:00:10,223 --> 00:00:11,499 Happy to have you with us today, and 3 00:00:11,499 --> 00:00:12,854 happy to have our crew here in the 4 00:00:12,854 --> 00:00:15,166 studio. Good morning, Bob. Good morning. Good morning, 5 00:00:15,406 --> 00:00:18,355 Philip. Hello, guys. So Brian and Dustin are 6 00:00:18,355 --> 00:00:20,359 out. We're gonna have Doctor Weiss, join us 7 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:21,393 here in a little bit, and he's gonna 8 00:00:21,393 --> 00:00:23,221 talk about ultrasound and how we can use 9 00:00:23,221 --> 00:00:24,039 it for 10 00:00:24,414 --> 00:00:26,743 diagnosis. We're also gonna talk about 11 00:00:27,212 --> 00:00:29,203 removing the bulls when you should do that 12 00:00:29,203 --> 00:00:32,548 and why you should do that. And leaky 13 00:00:32,548 --> 00:00:34,539 gut, It's a syndrome that's been discussed a 14 00:00:34,539 --> 00:00:36,302 lot in different types a cattle and Philip 15 00:00:36,302 --> 00:00:38,046 gonna fill us in on some of the 16 00:00:38,046 --> 00:00:40,028 research and what it tells us about that. 17 00:00:40,583 --> 00:00:42,723 Before we get into those topics, 18 00:00:43,374 --> 00:00:45,393 did wanna talk a little bit about our 19 00:00:45,452 --> 00:00:48,009 other podcast is Bo Science with Bc. 20 00:00:48,489 --> 00:00:49,847 We have several more in... 21 00:00:50,487 --> 00:00:53,217 Discussions there on specific topic. A little bit 22 00:00:53,217 --> 00:00:55,049 different format. You can find it at the 23 00:00:55,049 --> 00:00:56,960 same place you find this podcast. And as 24 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:58,951 always for either that podcast or this 1, 25 00:00:59,031 --> 00:01:00,624 if you wanna have a topic you'd like 26 00:01:00,624 --> 00:01:02,395 us to talk about You can send us 27 00:01:02,395 --> 00:01:04,555 an email at b at KSU dot edu 28 00:01:04,555 --> 00:01:04,875 d. 29 00:01:05,435 --> 00:01:07,114 Guys, I hope you had a great fourth 30 00:01:07,114 --> 00:01:08,635 of July. Stayed safe. 31 00:01:09,209 --> 00:01:12,086 And ate lots of good food, which leads 32 00:01:12,086 --> 00:01:13,765 to our question for the day. 33 00:01:14,484 --> 00:01:17,201 Bet and it's a very specific question. Best 34 00:01:17,201 --> 00:01:18,420 fourth of July 35 00:01:19,215 --> 00:01:19,454 dessert. 36 00:01:20,015 --> 00:01:21,935 Because it has to be something that's not 37 00:01:21,935 --> 00:01:23,694 necessarily gonna melt right away. You can take 38 00:01:23,694 --> 00:01:25,055 it to the fourth of July picnic, 39 00:01:25,534 --> 00:01:27,055 best fourth of July dessert. 40 00:01:28,026 --> 00:01:28,526 But 41 00:01:29,935 --> 00:01:31,526 I'm gonna say something that melts. Ice cream. 42 00:01:31,765 --> 00:01:33,276 We always have ice cream on fourth of 43 00:01:33,276 --> 00:01:35,742 july. And, yes, you're trying to just cutting 44 00:01:35,742 --> 00:01:38,304 the close with melting and not melting and 45 00:01:38,304 --> 00:01:40,134 putting ice around it, so it doesn't melt 46 00:01:40,213 --> 00:01:42,464 So you can take it outside. Homemade ice 47 00:01:42,839 --> 00:01:43,339 gotta 48 00:01:44,669 --> 00:01:45,329 it's gotta. 49 00:01:45,878 --> 00:01:47,705 Yeah. Yeah. And then you need a good 50 00:01:47,705 --> 00:01:50,566 piece of, like, strawberry rhubarb pie. To put 51 00:01:50,566 --> 00:01:52,712 it on. You are so right. You are 52 00:01:52,712 --> 00:01:54,301 sure right. Does sound good. You guys have 53 00:01:54,301 --> 00:01:55,826 good I can't remember what it was called, 54 00:01:55,985 --> 00:01:57,813 but there was 1 thing that was, like, 55 00:01:57,972 --> 00:02:00,356 a sweet, but it also had pretzels on 56 00:02:00,356 --> 00:02:02,917 top. So it was oh Yeah. That strawberry 57 00:02:02,917 --> 00:02:04,751 and then a little bit Strawberry and some... 58 00:02:05,070 --> 00:02:07,304 Yeah. What is that cold? That's strawberry sn. 59 00:02:07,782 --> 00:02:08,601 Strawberry strawberry. 60 00:02:09,696 --> 00:02:11,611 That's not what we call them. I will 61 00:02:11,611 --> 00:02:13,615 now. There you Right. I hope you had 62 00:02:13,615 --> 00:02:16,320 good strawberry sn on fourth of July. So 63 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:19,599 good Good chance to have some dessert. Let's 64 00:02:19,599 --> 00:02:22,634 talk full removal. So Bob, a lot of 65 00:02:22,634 --> 00:02:24,632 times, I'm a start with you, but we 66 00:02:24,632 --> 00:02:25,910 talk about calvin season, 67 00:02:26,484 --> 00:02:28,341 then go into breeding season 68 00:02:28,719 --> 00:02:32,312 and breeding season may start mid May, meaning 69 00:02:32,312 --> 00:02:34,068 if I want a 60 day calvin season, 70 00:02:34,307 --> 00:02:36,078 I need to pull out the bulls, mid 71 00:02:36,317 --> 00:02:38,950 July, which can be kind of challenging. So 72 00:02:38,950 --> 00:02:41,422 tell me what are your thoughts on how 73 00:02:41,422 --> 00:02:42,778 do I get those bowls out? How do 74 00:02:42,858 --> 00:02:44,612 I make this decision on getting them out 75 00:02:44,612 --> 00:02:46,696 60 days after the start. Alright. Well, I'm 76 00:02:46,696 --> 00:02:48,602 gonna say something that maybe some people would 77 00:02:48,602 --> 00:02:50,189 disagree with me on is. I'm not in 78 00:02:50,189 --> 00:02:52,015 a hurry to take those bulls out, even 79 00:02:52,015 --> 00:02:54,080 though I am a big proponent of a 80 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:56,797 controlled short calvin season, such as a 60, 81 00:02:57,035 --> 00:02:59,261 you know, anywhere from 50 to 70, 75 82 00:02:59,261 --> 00:03:01,725 days, you know, kind 60 isn't? I... That's 83 00:03:01,725 --> 00:03:03,315 a good number. I like a 60 day 84 00:03:03,315 --> 00:03:03,792 calvin season. 85 00:03:04,604 --> 00:03:06,380 But bread cows 86 00:03:06,758 --> 00:03:09,311 generally are worth enough more than open cows. 87 00:03:09,790 --> 00:03:10,907 I would like to leave the bulls in 88 00:03:10,907 --> 00:03:13,080 there and let those cows that would have 89 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:14,759 been open and if we'd remove the bulls, 90 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:16,539 give them a chance to become pregnant 91 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:19,400 later in the breeding season, but that does 92 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:21,093 require that I do pray check where I 93 00:03:21,093 --> 00:03:23,108 can identify those light bread cows 94 00:03:23,485 --> 00:03:26,197 and and treat them as a coal. They're 95 00:03:26,197 --> 00:03:27,793 just a value added coal. 96 00:03:28,670 --> 00:03:30,996 They're they're not a part of my a 97 00:03:30,996 --> 00:03:33,403 successful breeding season. So what you're saying is 98 00:03:33,459 --> 00:03:35,684 you like a 60 day calvin season, but 99 00:03:35,684 --> 00:03:37,353 that does not have to mean a 60 100 00:03:37,353 --> 00:03:39,680 day breeding. Absolutely can have a longer breeding 101 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:42,154 season and you're using Pre check to get 102 00:03:42,154 --> 00:03:44,787 down to your 60 day calvin season. So 103 00:03:44,867 --> 00:03:46,877 I like that because I don't really like 104 00:03:46,877 --> 00:03:49,591 going out mid July and getting the bull 105 00:03:49,591 --> 00:03:50,629 out of the pasture, 106 00:03:51,028 --> 00:03:52,625 but there may be some instances I wanna 107 00:03:52,625 --> 00:03:54,301 do that. Philip I'll turned to you and 108 00:03:54,301 --> 00:03:54,460 say, 109 00:03:55,114 --> 00:03:56,867 what are what are times that you say, 110 00:03:57,425 --> 00:03:59,338 maybe I need to get that bowl out 111 00:03:59,338 --> 00:04:02,048 for 1 reason or another? Well, so, I 112 00:04:02,048 --> 00:04:04,155 mean, it could be the the bulls getting 113 00:04:04,688 --> 00:04:05,403 excessively thin. 114 00:04:06,039 --> 00:04:08,185 Or a young bull that he'll he still 115 00:04:08,185 --> 00:04:10,013 needs to grow. So maybe I wanna go 116 00:04:10,013 --> 00:04:11,363 ahead and get him out of there so 117 00:04:11,443 --> 00:04:14,269 I can put him on a little better 118 00:04:14,407 --> 00:04:16,561 nutrition, especially we're getting into late summer here 119 00:04:16,561 --> 00:04:18,954 forage quality started to decline some, and so 120 00:04:18,954 --> 00:04:21,187 he may need some better nutrition to keep 121 00:04:21,187 --> 00:04:21,506 growing. 122 00:04:22,715 --> 00:04:24,227 Another thing you might wanna think about if 123 00:04:24,306 --> 00:04:25,204 I have multi 124 00:04:25,658 --> 00:04:26,533 bowl pastors, 125 00:04:27,329 --> 00:04:30,208 it is bolts continuing to fight and and 126 00:04:30,208 --> 00:04:32,378 things like that. And so bull injury 127 00:04:32,833 --> 00:04:33,708 is still a risk. 128 00:04:34,424 --> 00:04:36,750 And so maybe if I only have few 129 00:04:36,750 --> 00:04:39,069 cows in there that are still open. Maybe 130 00:04:39,230 --> 00:04:40,910 I wanna pull all the bulls out, but 131 00:04:40,910 --> 00:04:42,589 maybe 1 or 2. How does that fit 132 00:04:42,589 --> 00:04:43,949 with what you were saying about? Yes. We 133 00:04:43,949 --> 00:04:45,389 won't know if they're pregnant at that point? 134 00:04:45,710 --> 00:04:45,790 Correct. 135 00:04:46,603 --> 00:04:48,357 But I really like what Philip said and 136 00:04:48,357 --> 00:04:50,032 that it kind of takes this decision and 137 00:04:50,032 --> 00:04:51,548 adds a little... May maybe a little bit 138 00:04:51,548 --> 00:04:53,223 of complexity to it instead of just a 139 00:04:53,223 --> 00:04:54,818 simple. You should leave the balls in or 140 00:04:54,818 --> 00:04:55,855 you should leave the balls out. 141 00:04:56,508 --> 00:04:58,182 Kinda look at your bowls and and it 142 00:04:58,182 --> 00:04:59,776 particularly in a multi bowl pasture, 143 00:05:01,211 --> 00:05:02,965 maybe remove some of the bowls, and again, 144 00:05:03,124 --> 00:05:05,055 it doesn't have to be right at 60 145 00:05:05,055 --> 00:05:06,495 days after the start of the breeding season. 146 00:05:06,975 --> 00:05:08,735 But at a time when you're moving cows 147 00:05:08,735 --> 00:05:10,495 or you're doing some fly control or something 148 00:05:10,495 --> 00:05:12,274 like that, if I'm gonna gather the cows 149 00:05:12,748 --> 00:05:13,546 evaluate the bulls, 150 00:05:14,184 --> 00:05:16,338 decide if I... And and there should be 151 00:05:16,338 --> 00:05:18,571 many fewer open cows, you know, this late 152 00:05:18,571 --> 00:05:19,629 in the breeding season 153 00:05:20,485 --> 00:05:22,001 that I don't need the power that I 154 00:05:22,001 --> 00:05:24,412 needed. The first. And so you start really 155 00:05:24,412 --> 00:05:27,449 kinda thinking through, well, how many bulls do 156 00:05:27,609 --> 00:05:29,847 I need and which which bulls. So anybody 157 00:05:29,847 --> 00:05:32,419 thin, anybody young probably needs come out, 158 00:05:33,058 --> 00:05:34,576 but then maybe 1 of the older bowls 159 00:05:34,576 --> 00:05:37,293 that looks in good shape, no no indications 160 00:05:37,293 --> 00:05:39,291 of problems with lame or anything like that 161 00:05:39,291 --> 00:05:40,490 and leave him in for a little bit 162 00:05:40,490 --> 00:05:42,338 longer. It just becomes a little bit more 163 00:05:42,338 --> 00:05:44,171 of a... And again, I wanna look at 164 00:05:44,171 --> 00:05:46,561 it as a strategy to add value to 165 00:05:46,561 --> 00:05:49,031 open cows. But then I've got... I... Then 166 00:05:49,111 --> 00:05:50,147 I've still got some of the work of 167 00:05:50,147 --> 00:05:52,576 pulling out some of the bowls, which is 168 00:05:52,794 --> 00:05:54,788 challenging. And I think the labor part of 169 00:05:54,788 --> 00:05:57,022 this is is an issue, especially we're out 170 00:05:57,022 --> 00:05:58,081 on summer grass 171 00:05:59,106 --> 00:06:00,717 euro... Are you okay 172 00:06:01,169 --> 00:06:03,232 if it's a labor issue to leave all 173 00:06:03,232 --> 00:06:05,002 the bulls out until 174 00:06:05,789 --> 00:06:07,947 Break check time. And so we how long 175 00:06:07,947 --> 00:06:09,225 would you leave them out there? I I 176 00:06:09,225 --> 00:06:09,625 would say, 177 00:06:10,424 --> 00:06:12,102 and and thank you for putting me on 178 00:06:12,102 --> 00:06:14,020 the spot. But I would say, yeah. But 179 00:06:14,020 --> 00:06:17,606 then use the the situation that you're dealing 180 00:06:17,606 --> 00:06:17,765 with. 181 00:06:18,716 --> 00:06:21,016 In that, if I've got labor for another 182 00:06:21,016 --> 00:06:23,819 reason. Again, I'm moving past, I'm doing fly 183 00:06:23,819 --> 00:06:25,980 control. I'm doing something like that. At that 184 00:06:25,980 --> 00:06:27,740 point, you can think about anything that you 185 00:06:27,740 --> 00:06:29,579 want to accomplish in that kind of time 186 00:06:29,579 --> 00:06:31,658 frame. But if you're not, if the cows 187 00:06:31,658 --> 00:06:33,244 are still out on pasture and you're not 188 00:06:33,244 --> 00:06:33,640 moving them, 189 00:06:34,829 --> 00:06:36,652 because really, either I am gonna have to 190 00:06:36,652 --> 00:06:38,259 gather the cows or I have to go 191 00:06:38,259 --> 00:06:39,620 to the work where I'm setting up panels 192 00:06:39,620 --> 00:06:42,100 and trying to, you know, hurt a a 193 00:06:42,100 --> 00:06:43,939 bowl into a a catch pan or something 194 00:06:43,939 --> 00:06:45,995 like that, all of which can be 195 00:06:46,433 --> 00:06:49,858 difficult, possibly dangerous. And so I think, yeah. 196 00:06:50,894 --> 00:06:52,828 Maybe the take home is 197 00:06:53,378 --> 00:06:55,444 Although I really like a 60 day calvin 198 00:06:55,444 --> 00:06:57,589 season, I do not think that you have 199 00:06:57,589 --> 00:07:00,211 to have exactly a 60 day breeding season, 200 00:07:00,704 --> 00:07:03,021 and be a little more flexible on if 201 00:07:03,021 --> 00:07:05,098 and when you remove the bulls. I like 202 00:07:05,098 --> 00:07:06,557 that. Flexibility flexibility 203 00:07:07,015 --> 00:07:07,515 is 204 00:07:07,988 --> 00:07:09,346 I think 1 of the important take homes, 205 00:07:09,505 --> 00:07:11,442 and you talked about 60 days 206 00:07:11,900 --> 00:07:12,299 calvin. 207 00:07:12,778 --> 00:07:15,412 That's what we're shooting for. So, Philip, I 208 00:07:15,492 --> 00:07:16,391 I want to 209 00:07:16,784 --> 00:07:19,496 ask you, we've heard a lot about leaky 210 00:07:19,496 --> 00:07:23,244 gut and managing leaky gut. I. I gotta 211 00:07:23,244 --> 00:07:25,717 start out with what is leaky gut? Yeah. 212 00:07:25,876 --> 00:07:27,269 So it's the 213 00:07:27,648 --> 00:07:28,388 kind of 214 00:07:28,767 --> 00:07:30,146 common term for 215 00:07:30,684 --> 00:07:31,184 a 216 00:07:31,643 --> 00:07:32,442 I don't know if you wanna call it 217 00:07:32,442 --> 00:07:34,040 a syndrome. I don't know what exactly I 218 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:34,894 would call it. But 219 00:07:35,412 --> 00:07:38,520 What happens is that we have in the 220 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:40,215 gut, we have a 221 00:07:40,592 --> 00:07:42,207 a physical barrier 222 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:44,300 between the 223 00:07:44,839 --> 00:07:47,400 inside of the digestive tract and then the 224 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:48,839 rest of the animal. So you got the 225 00:07:48,839 --> 00:07:49,980 food and digestive 226 00:07:50,294 --> 00:07:52,444 You've got bacteria and stuff like that in 227 00:07:52,444 --> 00:07:55,549 that digestive tract. And that physical barrier keeps 228 00:07:55,549 --> 00:07:57,642 that bacteria and other 229 00:07:59,148 --> 00:08:01,799 possible toxins and other things from being absorbed 230 00:08:01,937 --> 00:08:02,835 across the 231 00:08:03,291 --> 00:08:06,080 digestive tract into the bloodstream of the animal. 232 00:08:06,413 --> 00:08:09,431 Well, what happens is certain situations and we're... 233 00:08:09,590 --> 00:08:12,235 This is still very new research, but certain 234 00:08:12,370 --> 00:08:14,198 situations and we don't know all of them. 235 00:08:15,006 --> 00:08:18,654 Tend to cause that physical barrier to be 236 00:08:18,654 --> 00:08:21,216 disrupted, and that allows large 237 00:08:21,588 --> 00:08:22,088 molecules 238 00:08:22,873 --> 00:08:24,091 and we think maybe 239 00:08:24,467 --> 00:08:24,967 bacteria 240 00:08:25,503 --> 00:08:28,133 to be able to get across that digest... 241 00:08:28,372 --> 00:08:31,647 Or that intestinal barrier when they normally wouldn't 242 00:08:31,647 --> 00:08:32,995 be able to, and that's why we call 243 00:08:32,995 --> 00:08:35,929 it Leaky gut because things that normally don't 244 00:08:35,929 --> 00:08:37,777 cross the intestinal barrier 245 00:08:38,403 --> 00:08:41,583 leak across into the bloodstream. And so that's 246 00:08:41,583 --> 00:08:43,252 where the the term comes from. Yeah. Basically, 247 00:08:43,411 --> 00:08:45,875 they're going systemic. So they're going from inside 248 00:08:45,875 --> 00:08:47,488 that got into the bloodstream 249 00:08:47,877 --> 00:08:49,464 which could be, and you you do a 250 00:08:49,464 --> 00:08:51,686 lot of research on liver abs accesses. Right? 251 00:08:51,924 --> 00:08:53,750 A lot of the... As the blood comes 252 00:08:53,750 --> 00:08:55,099 from the guts, it's gonna go to liver, 253 00:08:55,258 --> 00:08:56,234 that could be 254 00:08:56,544 --> 00:08:58,298 a contributing factor to some of our liver 255 00:08:58,298 --> 00:09:00,532 abs accesses. It also could be a contributing 256 00:09:00,532 --> 00:09:03,424 factor to some of our other either disease 257 00:09:03,483 --> 00:09:06,847 or low performance syndromes since we you still 258 00:09:06,847 --> 00:09:09,158 have to deal with those bacteria as they 259 00:09:09,158 --> 00:09:11,412 come across. Bob, this is a relatively 260 00:09:12,187 --> 00:09:13,802 new occurrence. We haven't seen 261 00:09:14,274 --> 00:09:15,788 haven't talked about this for a long time. 262 00:09:15,947 --> 00:09:18,258 What's your perspective? Well, I I would agree. 263 00:09:18,417 --> 00:09:20,091 It's it's interesting in that I I was 264 00:09:20,091 --> 00:09:22,259 certainly not taught, Leaky gut. In either of 265 00:09:22,259 --> 00:09:24,256 my veterinary classes or nutrition classes. 266 00:09:25,135 --> 00:09:26,812 And it is interesting to think about because 267 00:09:26,972 --> 00:09:28,730 I could see, you know, some health issues. 268 00:09:29,935 --> 00:09:31,441 Bacteria are not supposed to be in the 269 00:09:31,441 --> 00:09:33,898 bloodstream. I can see some performance issues as 270 00:09:33,898 --> 00:09:36,409 well. So 1 of my questions, Philip is 271 00:09:36,689 --> 00:09:38,607 Are are there some dietary components? Do we 272 00:09:38,607 --> 00:09:40,525 see this more on a a grain type 273 00:09:40,525 --> 00:09:42,123 diet or can it also occur on a 274 00:09:42,123 --> 00:09:44,520 forage type diet or is it during transitions 275 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:46,615 or or what's the high... What's the theory 276 00:09:46,615 --> 00:09:47,514 of of 277 00:09:47,894 --> 00:09:50,375 why we see some leaky gut type syndromes? 278 00:09:50,774 --> 00:09:53,014 We don't know. I mean, we're really in 279 00:09:53,014 --> 00:09:55,909 the early stages of this we've got research 280 00:09:55,909 --> 00:09:58,789 out there that that shows that different diet 281 00:09:58,789 --> 00:10:00,709 components in young cab. So a lot of 282 00:10:00,709 --> 00:10:02,970 the work has been done in 283 00:10:03,523 --> 00:10:04,478 young calves, 284 00:10:04,955 --> 00:10:07,501 so, like, dairy type calves where we really 285 00:10:07,501 --> 00:10:09,888 control the nutrition. I mean so some of 286 00:10:09,888 --> 00:10:13,109 the... There's bits some work dietary components different 287 00:10:13,568 --> 00:10:16,306 starch contents of the starter diet, different 288 00:10:17,724 --> 00:10:19,102 formulations of the milk replace 289 00:10:19,482 --> 00:10:22,925 have tended to increase the ability of the 290 00:10:23,004 --> 00:10:25,469 Gi tract in these cab. We know in 291 00:10:25,469 --> 00:10:27,321 some older animals that acidosis 292 00:10:27,775 --> 00:10:29,048 will cause some, 293 00:10:29,922 --> 00:10:30,956 increase in Perm ability, 294 00:10:31,923 --> 00:10:35,013 and then we know that animals being off 295 00:10:35,013 --> 00:10:36,122 feed for several days. 296 00:10:36,835 --> 00:10:39,708 So decrease feed intake for, you know, 3 297 00:10:39,708 --> 00:10:40,504 to 5 days, 298 00:10:41,299 --> 00:10:43,209 severely decreased intake, not just a little bit, 299 00:10:43,448 --> 00:10:45,517 but severely decreased intake for 3 to 5 300 00:10:45,517 --> 00:10:45,676 days. 301 00:10:46,649 --> 00:10:48,807 Will increase the perm ability of that gut. 302 00:10:49,046 --> 00:10:49,546 So 303 00:10:49,925 --> 00:10:53,122 we're still figuring out what factors cause it? 304 00:10:54,241 --> 00:10:55,860 When does it happen how 305 00:10:56,175 --> 00:10:57,875 either how extensive 306 00:10:58,175 --> 00:11:00,894 is the effect? Is it the whole Gi 307 00:11:00,894 --> 00:11:02,735 tract? Is it just different segments of the 308 00:11:02,815 --> 00:11:03,750 Gi tract 309 00:11:04,506 --> 00:11:06,499 and so we're still really figuring out a 310 00:11:06,499 --> 00:11:08,513 lot about this condition and, 311 00:11:09,048 --> 00:11:11,692 how we can try to manage it. Is 312 00:11:11,692 --> 00:11:13,918 it associated with anything I can see such 313 00:11:13,918 --> 00:11:14,235 as, 314 00:11:15,030 --> 00:11:17,256 manure consistency or anything like that or is 315 00:11:17,256 --> 00:11:19,419 is that not as simple as that? It 316 00:11:19,419 --> 00:11:21,259 it could be in the case of acidosis, 317 00:11:21,419 --> 00:11:22,959 so we would be able to see some 318 00:11:23,019 --> 00:11:24,779 more runny diarrhea type 319 00:11:25,259 --> 00:11:27,033 manure and then things like that. But some 320 00:11:27,033 --> 00:11:30,223 of these other conditions, No. We we haven't 321 00:11:30,223 --> 00:11:32,854 got any real evidence that says you... There's 322 00:11:32,854 --> 00:11:35,087 any clinical signs that I can see in 323 00:11:35,087 --> 00:11:37,176 the animal. Yeah. I I know we're still 324 00:11:37,176 --> 00:11:39,249 kind of in early phases of trying to 325 00:11:39,249 --> 00:11:42,041 figure this syndrome out, But what are the 326 00:11:42,041 --> 00:11:43,955 ideas as far as trying to prevent it 327 00:11:43,955 --> 00:11:45,391 or control it? Is it is it pretty 328 00:11:45,391 --> 00:11:46,464 much all dietary 329 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:49,712 interventions or just what exactly do I do 330 00:11:49,712 --> 00:11:50,611 to try to 331 00:11:51,068 --> 00:11:53,301 minimize the chance. Well, right now, yeah, Most 332 00:11:53,301 --> 00:11:55,055 of the stuff I have seen, a research 333 00:11:55,629 --> 00:11:57,146 It has been on the dietary side. So, 334 00:11:57,225 --> 00:11:58,104 like, probiotics. 335 00:11:59,062 --> 00:11:59,940 And then also, 336 00:12:00,498 --> 00:12:00,998 some 337 00:12:02,095 --> 00:12:04,171 b vitamins and some things like that as 338 00:12:04,171 --> 00:12:06,680 trying to at least in the room to 339 00:12:07,296 --> 00:12:10,884 trying to bolster the development and of the 340 00:12:10,884 --> 00:12:11,761 epithelium in the room. 341 00:12:12,479 --> 00:12:13,730 So things like 342 00:12:14,727 --> 00:12:15,047 acid, 343 00:12:15,925 --> 00:12:18,399 because it is a major energy source for 344 00:12:18,399 --> 00:12:21,752 the epithelial lima room and then things like 345 00:12:22,151 --> 00:12:22,651 niacin 346 00:12:22,964 --> 00:12:25,667 or t have been tried and and have 347 00:12:25,667 --> 00:12:28,291 shown some benefit in different situations. But we 348 00:12:28,291 --> 00:12:30,358 do really don't have an answer yet. As 349 00:12:30,358 --> 00:12:33,718 far as as treatments or caused factors. 350 00:12:34,197 --> 00:12:34,697 So 351 00:12:35,076 --> 00:12:37,313 how... This is a... I think interesting from 352 00:12:37,313 --> 00:12:39,605 a standpoint of... Okay. We've got a new 353 00:12:40,123 --> 00:12:42,276 potential issue here. How do we sort that 354 00:12:42,276 --> 00:12:44,270 out? What kind of research do you see 355 00:12:44,270 --> 00:12:45,249 would be the most 356 00:12:45,626 --> 00:12:47,461 beneficial to help answer some of these questions? 357 00:12:47,860 --> 00:12:49,556 Well, I think that 358 00:12:49,869 --> 00:12:50,848 we need to 359 00:12:51,225 --> 00:12:54,497 maybe have a systematic approach to from a 360 00:12:54,497 --> 00:12:57,290 diet being a nutrition, from a dietary perspective, 361 00:12:58,103 --> 00:13:01,955 what types of diets or feed feed ingredients 362 00:13:02,093 --> 00:13:02,593 or 363 00:13:03,051 --> 00:13:03,551 formulations 364 00:13:04,328 --> 00:13:05,546 affect it. So 365 00:13:06,019 --> 00:13:08,740 a systematic approach to to that aspect of 366 00:13:08,740 --> 00:13:12,579 it. And then I think we need to 367 00:13:12,579 --> 00:13:14,982 take us a step back and look at, 368 00:13:15,300 --> 00:13:16,412 okay, what is the... 369 00:13:16,968 --> 00:13:17,944 What's the biological 370 00:13:18,635 --> 00:13:19,135 reason 371 00:13:19,668 --> 00:13:21,812 that this happens? Why would an animal will 372 00:13:21,812 --> 00:13:22,789 allow their 373 00:13:23,259 --> 00:13:25,812 Gi track to be more permeable? Because that 374 00:13:25,812 --> 00:13:27,589 seems like a negative thing 375 00:13:28,047 --> 00:13:30,520 and why why does it even happen at 376 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:30,680 all? 377 00:13:31,412 --> 00:13:34,039 To better understand then well, maybe, so then 378 00:13:34,039 --> 00:13:36,847 what would be our intervention or our preventative 379 00:13:36,905 --> 00:13:38,736 measures to keep it from happening. 380 00:13:39,229 --> 00:13:41,461 Yeah. Absolutely. And I think it it takes 381 00:13:41,461 --> 00:13:43,055 a little bit of time to figure that 382 00:13:43,055 --> 00:13:45,287 out. And often many of us want to... 383 00:13:45,925 --> 00:13:48,492 You Bob asked how do we manage it, 384 00:13:48,572 --> 00:13:50,487 and you said, well, we've tried x y 385 00:13:50,487 --> 00:13:53,121 and z, and we don't even fully understand 386 00:13:53,121 --> 00:13:54,878 it yet. So it's hard to know that 387 00:13:54,878 --> 00:13:57,290 if those management intervention are there. And I 388 00:13:57,290 --> 00:13:59,210 think this is a also a great example 389 00:13:59,210 --> 00:13:59,710 of 390 00:14:00,090 --> 00:14:03,290 you have to have a clear case definition 391 00:14:03,290 --> 00:14:05,544 or how do I know this animal has 392 00:14:05,544 --> 00:14:07,544 leaky gut or not? Before I can say, 393 00:14:08,105 --> 00:14:10,424 can I get rid of leaky gut or 394 00:14:10,424 --> 00:14:11,785 not? Being able to tell that they have 395 00:14:11,785 --> 00:14:13,600 it. Right now, the the only way that 396 00:14:13,798 --> 00:14:16,174 we can tell the... Or measure it or 397 00:14:16,174 --> 00:14:19,264 determine is, we dose a marker to the 398 00:14:19,264 --> 00:14:21,499 animal orally, and we take blood samples or 399 00:14:21,499 --> 00:14:23,244 urine end samples and we measure the amount 400 00:14:23,244 --> 00:14:25,625 of marker in there. So we know well 401 00:14:25,625 --> 00:14:28,401 that amount... That... This animal had more of 402 00:14:28,401 --> 00:14:30,326 that marker across the Gi tract in this 403 00:14:30,326 --> 00:14:30,885 other animal, 404 00:14:31,523 --> 00:14:33,277 and it shouldn't be crossing the Gi tract 405 00:14:33,277 --> 00:14:33,676 at all, 406 00:14:34,713 --> 00:14:36,069 because it's a large molecule. 407 00:14:36,627 --> 00:14:38,542 That's our... Right now, that's our only way 408 00:14:38,542 --> 00:14:40,551 to determine Yeah. And so we can clearly 409 00:14:40,551 --> 00:14:43,023 document it occurs and it... And... But the 410 00:14:43,023 --> 00:14:44,698 only way to document it is in research 411 00:14:44,698 --> 00:14:46,453 setting. Right. We can't do that in the 412 00:14:46,453 --> 00:14:48,207 field with all the other animals that are 413 00:14:48,207 --> 00:14:49,186 out there. So 414 00:14:49,658 --> 00:14:50,158 interesting 415 00:14:50,534 --> 00:14:52,845 disease process, and you'll keep us updated. You've 416 00:14:52,845 --> 00:14:54,997 got some research ongoing looking at how it's 417 00:14:54,997 --> 00:14:56,511 tied to other disease syndromes. 418 00:14:57,004 --> 00:14:58,684 But wanted to make you aware that that's 419 00:14:58,684 --> 00:15:00,684 kind of an emerging thought process. And I 420 00:15:00,684 --> 00:15:03,245 think could it could enable us enable us 421 00:15:03,245 --> 00:15:04,205 to hopefully, 422 00:15:04,764 --> 00:15:07,562 hope fully work forward with those calves. Mh. 423 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:09,946 So now we'll get Doctor. Luis to come 424 00:15:09,946 --> 00:15:11,218 in and join us and talk a little 425 00:15:11,218 --> 00:15:14,092 bit about ultrasound. Welcome back to Doctor. Luis 426 00:15:14,171 --> 00:15:16,313 Fat, who's here with us today, and he's 427 00:15:16,313 --> 00:15:18,773 a veterinarian from Brazil that's finishing up his 428 00:15:18,853 --> 00:15:19,353 Phd 429 00:15:20,059 --> 00:15:21,973 and he has done a lot of different 430 00:15:21,973 --> 00:15:22,952 work with 431 00:15:23,409 --> 00:15:26,121 ultrasound. So looking at things that maybe we 432 00:15:26,121 --> 00:15:27,317 don't think about. Because a lot of times 433 00:15:27,317 --> 00:15:28,832 we hear Old Town and Cattle. My first 434 00:15:28,832 --> 00:15:31,395 thought is rep repo, Luis has done a 435 00:15:31,395 --> 00:15:33,623 lot of other evaluation of both liver, lungs, 436 00:15:33,861 --> 00:15:35,770 some other areas. And I wanted to pick 437 00:15:35,770 --> 00:15:38,258 his brain today relative to 438 00:15:38,728 --> 00:15:40,720 what are some of the pros and cons 439 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:42,792 for places that we put the ultrasound? And 440 00:15:42,792 --> 00:15:44,784 maybe just Louise tell us in general, 441 00:15:45,342 --> 00:15:47,812 what type of information is that ultrasound providing 442 00:15:47,812 --> 00:15:50,286 back to us? First, thanks guys for having 443 00:15:50,286 --> 00:15:50,682 me here. 444 00:15:51,871 --> 00:15:55,121 Well, Ultrasound is a very very powerful tool. 445 00:15:56,008 --> 00:15:59,291 And you can measure anything. You can evaluate 446 00:15:59,348 --> 00:16:00,302 several things, like, 447 00:16:01,176 --> 00:16:01,892 tissue density. 448 00:16:02,528 --> 00:16:04,913 If there's any abnormal normality that you would 449 00:16:04,913 --> 00:16:05,524 look at 450 00:16:06,285 --> 00:16:08,125 like in a liver, for example, If we're 451 00:16:08,125 --> 00:16:09,725 we're talking about liver abs access. 452 00:16:10,845 --> 00:16:12,845 That's something that is quite 453 00:16:13,819 --> 00:16:16,695 when when there's access there, it's quite obvious. 454 00:16:16,935 --> 00:16:19,731 So it's an artifact when you find those, 455 00:16:21,105 --> 00:16:22,884 that we will give you valuable 456 00:16:23,264 --> 00:16:23,665 information there. 457 00:16:24,785 --> 00:16:26,085 There are several 458 00:16:27,105 --> 00:16:30,245 other soft tissues evaluation that we can use 459 00:16:31,198 --> 00:16:33,034 at shoot side with the ultrasound, 460 00:16:34,311 --> 00:16:36,647 everything from muscle skeletal 461 00:16:37,344 --> 00:16:39,201 evaluations, like if an animal have 462 00:16:40,471 --> 00:16:42,066 l or tandem problem, 463 00:16:43,422 --> 00:16:45,815 you if a if you have, like, a 464 00:16:45,815 --> 00:16:47,968 s problem with a bowl, you can go 465 00:16:47,968 --> 00:16:49,266 and look at it and 466 00:16:49,816 --> 00:16:51,904 evaluate if there's is a accumulate 467 00:16:53,072 --> 00:16:53,946 accumulation of liquids, 468 00:16:54,422 --> 00:16:54,740 fluids, 469 00:16:55,693 --> 00:16:57,917 if you have a tandem injury or l 470 00:16:57,917 --> 00:16:58,473 and injury, 471 00:16:59,125 --> 00:17:01,125 which is way more common for horses, 472 00:17:01,764 --> 00:17:04,565 but it is literally the same application for 473 00:17:04,644 --> 00:17:07,045 Bo as well. Yeah. Absolutely. So you can 474 00:17:07,045 --> 00:17:10,093 evaluate some of those mu skeletal areas. 475 00:17:10,571 --> 00:17:12,166 So, Brian and Bob, what what do you 476 00:17:12,166 --> 00:17:13,942 guys see beyond our typical 477 00:17:14,558 --> 00:17:16,791 rep repo? What are some of the potential 478 00:17:16,791 --> 00:17:19,054 things you'd like to know that you think 479 00:17:19,109 --> 00:17:20,776 ultrasound may help you figure out if you're 480 00:17:20,776 --> 00:17:23,077 trying to diagnose something. 1 of the things 481 00:17:23,077 --> 00:17:25,910 is that the equipment for ultrasound is 482 00:17:26,347 --> 00:17:29,134 becoming... It's still expensive, but it's becoming more 483 00:17:29,134 --> 00:17:31,364 accessible and more common in veterinary practices. And, 484 00:17:31,443 --> 00:17:32,558 you know, so I'm gonna go back to 485 00:17:32,558 --> 00:17:34,173 the Rep repo. Yes. We 486 00:17:34,563 --> 00:17:36,547 spend anything but. I know, but I'm gonna 487 00:17:36,547 --> 00:17:39,482 go there. So rather than just diagnosing pregnancy, 488 00:17:40,038 --> 00:17:41,680 some of the... Particularly some of the 489 00:17:42,198 --> 00:17:44,191 doppler ultrasound that looks at blood flow and 490 00:17:44,191 --> 00:17:45,887 things like that. We were looking at O 491 00:17:45,945 --> 00:17:47,779 and getting some good information about o. 492 00:17:48,577 --> 00:17:50,171 We can put it on testicles and look 493 00:17:50,171 --> 00:17:50,671 for 494 00:17:51,063 --> 00:17:53,534 abnormalities of testicles as well. So yes, Rep 495 00:17:53,534 --> 00:17:55,708 pro, but beyond just diagnostic 496 00:17:56,244 --> 00:17:59,129 beyond 10 Really need things we're learning. And 497 00:17:59,129 --> 00:18:00,967 and I think that you're right because we've 498 00:18:00,967 --> 00:18:02,586 talked with some of our of other colleagues 499 00:18:02,645 --> 00:18:05,122 about what they're doing looking at test and 500 00:18:05,122 --> 00:18:07,280 being able to determine not just if there's 501 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:09,599 damage but the extent damage, which helps with 502 00:18:09,599 --> 00:18:11,186 your prognosis. Yeah. Exactly. 503 00:18:11,742 --> 00:18:13,329 I think Bob kinda cheated. I mean, he 504 00:18:13,329 --> 00:18:15,472 did rep repo without being repo. Right? Like, 505 00:18:16,599 --> 00:18:18,833 and all add, and, Bob said, it's cheaper 506 00:18:18,833 --> 00:18:20,749 and more accessible. It's also becoming a lot 507 00:18:20,749 --> 00:18:23,403 more portable. And so 1 of the things 508 00:18:23,541 --> 00:18:26,588 is it's it's moving from an in clinic 509 00:18:26,588 --> 00:18:29,242 diagnostic tool to an in the field diagnostic 510 00:18:29,460 --> 00:18:31,135 tool. And I know 511 00:18:31,628 --> 00:18:32,898 that was not the case when I was 512 00:18:32,898 --> 00:18:34,485 in practice, and there are times where I 513 00:18:34,485 --> 00:18:36,548 wish it would have been because, you know, 514 00:18:36,865 --> 00:18:38,635 you you show up at a farm 515 00:18:39,023 --> 00:18:41,878 and somebody's got a bull or a cow 516 00:18:41,878 --> 00:18:44,496 or a calf with a weird mass, and 517 00:18:44,496 --> 00:18:46,896 you don't know what it is. And you've 518 00:18:46,896 --> 00:18:48,251 got basically a couple options. 519 00:18:48,968 --> 00:18:51,519 You can stick a scalpel in it and 520 00:18:51,519 --> 00:18:52,635 open it up completely, 521 00:18:53,751 --> 00:18:56,309 which sometimes that's... If it's a thing like 522 00:18:56,309 --> 00:18:57,581 a hernia, that's really bad. 523 00:18:58,613 --> 00:19:00,599 Not a good idea. Right? Yeah. You can 524 00:19:00,599 --> 00:19:02,370 stick a needle in it and 525 00:19:02,918 --> 00:19:04,900 if p comes rolling out. Okay, well, you're 526 00:19:04,900 --> 00:19:06,247 pretty sure it was an abs access. But 527 00:19:06,247 --> 00:19:08,467 sometimes you don't get much fluid. And so... 528 00:19:08,784 --> 00:19:11,021 And and you... Sometimes you wonder we'll it 529 00:19:11,021 --> 00:19:12,452 could still be an ab. I just didn't 530 00:19:12,452 --> 00:19:14,360 get the right part. It didn't get deep 531 00:19:14,360 --> 00:19:15,155 enough or whatever. 532 00:19:15,712 --> 00:19:17,779 Now I've got this portable ultrasound where I 533 00:19:17,779 --> 00:19:19,449 can put the probe right there, and I 534 00:19:19,449 --> 00:19:22,019 can use the probe to guide my needle 535 00:19:22,019 --> 00:19:23,700 and collect a sample. I can use the 536 00:19:23,700 --> 00:19:26,900 probe to say, hey, this is this mass 537 00:19:26,900 --> 00:19:29,231 on the underside of this bull. Is not 538 00:19:29,231 --> 00:19:31,535 a hernia. It just looks like a fluid 539 00:19:31,535 --> 00:19:33,679 pocket. So, you know, I... So I look 540 00:19:33,679 --> 00:19:36,324 at it as really kind of a another 541 00:19:36,380 --> 00:19:36,880 diagnostic 542 00:19:37,348 --> 00:19:38,880 tool because now the portability, 543 00:19:39,332 --> 00:19:41,792 it's a it's another field diagnostic tool that 544 00:19:41,792 --> 00:19:45,305 we can use, essentially for in on, Louise 545 00:19:45,305 --> 00:19:47,884 mentioned it, but really, anything that is soft 546 00:19:47,945 --> 00:19:51,225 tissue. Right? If it's muscle fluid, all of 547 00:19:51,225 --> 00:19:53,077 that. It doesn't do bone, But if it's 548 00:19:53,077 --> 00:19:54,673 any of those and we have access to 549 00:19:54,673 --> 00:19:57,225 it, it's it's a great tool. So, Luis, 550 00:19:57,384 --> 00:19:59,698 what what else as you think about some 551 00:19:59,698 --> 00:20:01,612 of the soft tissue. It makes me think 552 00:20:01,612 --> 00:20:02,112 of 553 00:20:02,504 --> 00:20:06,103 the abdomen, the intestines, if there's any Gi 554 00:20:06,477 --> 00:20:08,623 issues that you like to know, are there 555 00:20:08,623 --> 00:20:10,848 any limitations that we should be concerned about? 556 00:20:11,578 --> 00:20:12,553 Well, the greatest 557 00:20:13,875 --> 00:20:14,692 limitation for 558 00:20:15,301 --> 00:20:18,416 pornography is air. The presence of air 559 00:20:19,204 --> 00:20:22,001 the ultrasound waves, they are not able to 560 00:20:22,001 --> 00:20:22,800 go through air. 561 00:20:23,439 --> 00:20:26,396 So anything that would... Like, if you think 562 00:20:26,396 --> 00:20:28,806 about the rum. Right? Half of the room 563 00:20:28,806 --> 00:20:29,842 is filled with air. 564 00:20:30,879 --> 00:20:32,951 So the... Ultra sound waves would not be 565 00:20:32,951 --> 00:20:34,147 able to go through those. 566 00:20:35,423 --> 00:20:35,923 So 567 00:20:36,633 --> 00:20:38,542 when we were looking at Gi tractor, are 568 00:20:38,542 --> 00:20:40,849 some things that we can evaluate. And 1 569 00:20:40,849 --> 00:20:41,644 thing is, 570 00:20:42,519 --> 00:20:43,235 hardware disease. 571 00:20:43,888 --> 00:20:44,925 When we were looking at, 572 00:20:45,643 --> 00:20:48,218 an animal that we are... We have a 573 00:20:48,276 --> 00:20:51,643 suspicious of hardware disease, and we place the 574 00:20:51,643 --> 00:20:54,679 probe at that fifth inter cost space, 575 00:20:55,877 --> 00:20:57,395 by the heart and re reticulum. 576 00:20:58,368 --> 00:21:01,319 We can see... We can evaluate for adhesion 577 00:21:01,319 --> 00:21:02,516 and and things like that. 578 00:21:03,712 --> 00:21:05,467 The other limitation is that, 579 00:21:06,105 --> 00:21:07,482 bow lines are quite 580 00:21:07,954 --> 00:21:08,595 big animals, 581 00:21:09,875 --> 00:21:10,375 Ultrasound 582 00:21:10,835 --> 00:21:11,974 with today's technology, 583 00:21:12,515 --> 00:21:15,315 they usually don't go over 30 to 35 584 00:21:15,315 --> 00:21:16,115 centimeters deep. 585 00:21:16,769 --> 00:21:18,609 So when you think about 586 00:21:19,170 --> 00:21:22,049 an adult animal, you won't be able to 587 00:21:22,049 --> 00:21:23,250 see much with that, 588 00:21:23,890 --> 00:21:25,424 depth, But there are, 589 00:21:25,904 --> 00:21:27,424 some things that you can look with the 590 00:21:27,585 --> 00:21:30,384 Gi, like the hardware diseases it's a pretty 591 00:21:30,384 --> 00:21:31,045 good 1, 592 00:21:31,424 --> 00:21:32,704 when you were evaluating that, 593 00:21:33,997 --> 00:21:36,303 re reticulum, diaphragm and heart 594 00:21:37,257 --> 00:21:39,403 wendell. Yeah. And I think there's some opportunities 595 00:21:39,403 --> 00:21:41,073 in some of the probes and Brian alluded 596 00:21:41,073 --> 00:21:41,312 to this. 597 00:21:41,964 --> 00:21:44,361 Not just the the probe, but the probe 598 00:21:44,361 --> 00:21:45,420 and the machine 599 00:21:45,879 --> 00:21:47,417 have greatly increased portability 600 00:21:47,876 --> 00:21:48,376 because 601 00:21:48,928 --> 00:21:49,565 At the start, 602 00:21:50,201 --> 00:21:52,428 ultrasound were a cart only device. You had 603 00:21:52,428 --> 00:21:54,099 a big cart that had your ultrasound machine 604 00:21:54,099 --> 00:21:55,553 on it and a little screen 605 00:21:55,943 --> 00:21:57,850 And now you have a big screen and 606 00:21:57,850 --> 00:21:59,995 probably no cart on many of those. Some 607 00:22:00,313 --> 00:22:01,902 some people wear the goggles for the Reaper 608 00:22:02,299 --> 00:22:02,458 Ultrasound. 609 00:22:03,108 --> 00:22:05,257 But lots of different applications. The ones most 610 00:22:05,257 --> 00:22:06,553 commonly would be 611 00:22:07,088 --> 00:22:09,498 reproductive pregnancy detection and also Car 612 00:22:10,112 --> 00:22:11,783 evaluation. So there are people that are certified 613 00:22:11,783 --> 00:22:14,275 to do that. But as you mentioned, maybe 614 00:22:14,275 --> 00:22:16,755 some real opportunities to start thinking about what 615 00:22:16,755 --> 00:22:18,355 are some of the other things that it 616 00:22:18,355 --> 00:22:20,434 could provide us some information and you guys 617 00:22:20,434 --> 00:22:22,366 came up with some great ideas even though 618 00:22:22,445 --> 00:22:24,757 Bob's stuck on reach. Stuck on Reg. Yep. 619 00:22:25,076 --> 00:22:27,155 So thanks, Louise. Appreciate you joining us today. 620 00:22:27,315 --> 00:22:27,950 Thanks for having me.