D.J. Paris  0:00  
What is a man's shadow? And why is it so important to understand? Stay tuned

Hello, and welcome to men on point A victories podcast. We are thrilled that you're here. My name is DJ Parris. I'm your guide and host through the show today, we're speaking with victory shadow weekend leader Kevin Fitzpatrick. But before we get to Kevin, if you are a new listener, what this show is all about is having vulnerable and intimate conversations relating to issues men face throughout their adult lives. This podcast is brought to you by victories not for profit, and victories mission reads as follows. Victory supports men through weekend and group programs that lead to deeper self awareness, greater self confidence, stronger relationships and greater connection to themselves and community. Their weekends and superior support groups are designed by professionals attended by licensed professionals and based on widely accepted clinical principles that help men find peace and balance in their lives. To learn more, please visit victories for men.org. Please also help us reach men who might find this podcast helpful by telling others about it. Also, please subscribe. You can find this show anywhere podcasts are served. And last, let us know what you think at victories. We're here to serve you and your needs. So send us some feedback. You can email us at podcast at victories for men.org. And now onto my conversation with Kevin Fitzpatrick.

Today, our guest is Kevin Fitzpatrick. Now Kevin is a licensed clinical social worker who has had private psychotherapy practice since 1984. As part of his mission to empower through healing, Kevin has a particular interest in and commitment to working with men. He completed his own breakthrough weekend in 1987. And starting in 1991, he and his co leader Paul Contreras, both members of the victories board of directors have led several dozen breakthrough weekends and are also the creators of the shadow weekend. Now in addition to his professional and his victories work, Kevin is a yoga and meditation teacher as well as a motorcycle enthusiast who enjoys singing and playing guitar at open mics. He and his wife, Ellen have two adult sons and recently celebrated their 42nd wedding anniversary. Kevin, welcome to the show.

Kevin Fitzpatrick  2:45  
Thank you, DJ,

D.J. Paris  2:47  
very excited to have you as one of victories. Men members who have been with victories since almost the very beginning. And I would love to sort of get your perspective on the journey that you've seen victories undertake, and as well as how victories has helped people that maybe you've counseled in, in your own practice, as well as how it's benefited you personally. So we have a lot of lot of ground to cover to cover. Well, I'm excited to start at the very beginning. How did you find victories of the heart?

Kevin Fitzpatrick  3:24  
Well,

back in the early 70s, I was recently graduated from undergrad

with a bachelor's degree in psychology. And I got a job working at a private psychiatric hospital. And when I was there, I met buddy Portugal, who is one of the founders of victories. And Buddy was a few years older than I and someone who already had a master's degree in social work, and somebody that I kind of looked up to, and somebody who, who mentored me, and subsequently, you know, I went to graduate school and got my own master's degree in social work and Buddy helped me get started in private practice. And somewhere along the way there and say the mid 80s, he and Bob Mark, who is co founder of victories

started doing their you know, these these weekends. Originally, they were non residential. Men would come for the program, fight it Friday evening, go home, spend all day Saturday, go home and then finish up on Sunday. So he spent buddy spent a couple of years trying to entice me to come and participate. And in one of those and like many men, I was scared of the idea which sounded, you know, foreign to me. And and, you know, I was not quick to jump in. But after a while I did decide to go to a weekend as a participant and really had an experience that was life changing for me. Go ahead and

D.J. Paris  5:23  
how so if you don't mind me, you know, whatever you're willing to share, can you talk about, you know, either the insight you gained, or maybe the skills you learned, you know, what was that way as you were coming off of that first weekend first, scared to attend, which I think is a very common experience for very probably all attendees. I know, I was scared when I first went through my breakthrough weekend, or the fear, the anxiety of going was was was was real, but What benefits did you find when you came down?

Kevin Fitzpatrick  5:57  
So this, you know, this occurred, as I said, 1987 was the year that I did the the weekend, and prior to that, I had been in formal therapy, you know, psychotherapy, as a as a client, more than once. And also, you know, during the 70s, had participated in all kinds of, you know, human potential, you know, personal growth experiences. So, I came, came to the weekend, you know, with a certain set of experiences around my own self, and my own emotional and psychological self. Excuse me. But then the experience that I had, in this weekend, made everything that had happened previously pale in comparison, the experience of healing, and addressing some issues that were very challenging and difficult for me, in the company of men, only one of which I really knew, and that was buddy, I didn't know Bob very well. And then my fellow attendees, I think there were a 17 or 18 of us who were total strangers going into it. But, you know, a safe environment was, was created by body and Bob, in which myself and other men started to feel comfortable, and started to open up a bit. And, you know, in which myself and others really allowed ourselves to go very deep and become very vulnerable. And, and so that experience. Just really, you know, it blew my mind. I couldn't, I couldn't believe what, what had just happened. And so I came away from that weekend, just wanting more, you know, I, it was just something that I knew was really special, and I had to get more involved in.

D.J. Paris  8:12  
And so how did you get more involved. So you came back from the break through weekend as a participant, and you had, you know, these powerful experiences in the company of other men, which, you know, as you were reflecting on that I was thinking how unique it is to just have a group of adult men getting together to talk about their own individual work in, of course, you know, everyone has their own unique challenges, and so that it isn't even like a 12 step program where there may be a circle, sometimes there, sometimes 12 Step rooms are gender specific. And there might be a circle of men who are all dealing with a very similar issue. Usually, it's, you know, they're dealing with an addiction, or whatever their struggles are, but they have that shared sort of issue. And so it makes more logical sense why that would work. But when you get a group of men who all have different concerns, different issues, it is amazing how well that group can can coalesce I guess, by the end of the weekend, and, and it is something that really doesn't exist, you know, in too many other places.

Kevin Fitzpatrick  9:22  
It's, it's very, very unique. And I'll digress for a second then I'll come back to your question about how I got more involved. And the digression is in virtually every breakthrough weekend that Paul and I have led by the end of the weekend, and I'm talking, you know, Sunday, early mid afternoon, inevitably, some guy will say to the group, you know, you guys know me better. And I know you better than my own brothers, or guys that I've been friends with since fourth grade. it. And these are people who started Friday evening as total strangers. So it's a it's really a testament to the process, which is, you know, I hesitate to use this word I hope it's not too grandiose, but it's miraculous. What can happen over the course of the weekend when, you know, when a safe environment in emotionally safe environment is created, and men can start talking about real stuff, okay? without the fear of you know, being shamed, and you know, all those messages, the toxic masculinity gives us about big boys don't cry, don't let them see you sweat, don't show your you know, your weaknesses, be strong, keep up a big facade, the Marlboro Man, all that crap. You know, if we succeed in putting all of that to the side and allow men to be, you know, to be real with their strengths and their weaknesses. It's, it's, you know, it's kind of the best kept secret that the real strength and the real power is in vulnerability. Yeah, it's really paradoxical. That's paradoxical.

D.J. Paris  11:18  
It is, I remember, years ago, I learned from my therapist who said that my own individual therapist who had who had mentioned, intimacy is only built through vulnerability. Yep, the and of course, the the catch 22 is being vulnerable is terrifying, because people can hurt you, and they can reject you. And they might say, well, you know, what, your real self not good enough for me, I'm out of here. And the irony, of course, is that most people don't run away screaming, they actually feel more connected, because people like, you know, hearing where someone's struggles are makes it endears them in bonds them closer. So it's one of these things that is, is a scary experience ideas to oh, I'm going to bear my soul, especially in front of a group of strange strangers. And I'm going to feel safe enough to do that, when I can't even do that, with maybe my best friend who I know my best friends who love me dearly and would accept me and would want me to talk about this, but we just don't have that. We don't have that structure or that relationship. And so it's amazing that you can actually build that out of whole cloth almost within a couple of days.

Kevin Fitzpatrick  12:34  
Yeah. So you know us how I got more involved. circle back to that, which is after, after my initial weekend, a couple of things happen, one of which was I, I started to see how beneficial that experience was, to me as a therapist, in being of assistance to my clients. You know, the depth of the work that I had just done, really enabled me to be present with my clients, both men and women, in in the therapeutic relationship, and to, it really helped me to deepen the therapeutic work that I was doing with my clients. So that was a fringe benefit. Like who knew I didn't expect that, but that happened. So that really reinforced that I want more of this, I want to get more involved. The second thing that happened was that buddy and Bob had decided that they wanted to grow this program that they had, they had created, I think they had only done one, maybe two weekends before, before I did. And so they wanted to train people to, you know, to do what they were doing to lead weekend's and so they invited me to start participating in some, you know, some training as a breakthrough leader. So, I had, I kind of had some brief pairings with a couple of other men that didn't necessarily click. But I had met Paul Pictoris. And he and I really resonated with with one another. And, you know, we're doing some work together professionally. And I invited him to come to a weekend as a participant. And like me, Paul had an amazing, deep, profound experience. And then the two of us started, you know, started training to become breakthrough leaders, you know, accompanying buddy and Bob on weekends and learning the things that one needs to learn in order to to lead one of these weekends.

D.J. Paris  14:57  
started getting involved in You were trained on how to lead the weekends, you started getting involved in actually leading these weekends. And what was that experience? Like? Was that it? Was there a big learning curve for you to understand the role of the facilitator versus a participant was was that it was although, or maybe wasn't much of a challenge, because of your professional work as a therapist,

Kevin Fitzpatrick  15:25  
you said, What was that like? And my answer is terrifying. It really was, it really was. And, you know, Paul and I, both, you know, Paul's a psychiatrist, I'm a social worker. And both of us had many, many years of working with people professionally, and a pretty good familiarity with the, you know, emotional and psychological landscape. So we did bring those, those skills and those that experience base with us when we started leading, but at the same time, to, you know, stand in front of our room full of men, and to have the audacity to lead these men guide them through this very deep journey throughout a weekend was, was really quite daunting. But at the same time, you know, the saying, If you build it, they will come the weekend, the first weekend that we did was, you know, just, you know, it was an enormous success. And I'm proud to say that many of the men that were in that original weekend that we let in 1991, are still meeting as a as a PGA professional, personal growth group.

D.J. Paris  16:54  
That's an it's an incredible, that is an incredible victory, pardon the pun, because the idea that men had a transformative experience, you know, 30 plus years ago, and now are still actively engaged in their own work as a group. And individually, actually, we should probably divide to find what a personal growth group is only because you mentioned it, and there are going to be people listening who might not be familiar. So you know, can you tell us just share the definition of what is a PGG? Group? And how does it work?

Kevin Fitzpatrick  17:30  
Sure. So during the weekend, there is a certain level of bonding that takes place between and amongst the participants. And what we do afterwards is we help organize that group of men in an ongoing personal growth experience. So we provide victories provides, provides some trained leadership for those men to get them started on on the right track. And that that leadership is provided over a period of about six months, I may not have it exactly right. And initially, the victories leaders of the personal growth group are there for every meeting, and the groups meet every other week. And then they start to trail off and come to every other meeting. But they're, they're really preparing the group to launch and continue on, on, on their on their own without the guidance. So even though the weekends themselves can be these profound and transformational experience, what we hear from men over the course of years, is it's really the ongoing group that, that provides the growth over time, you know, the, you know, peak experience on the weekend, but that tends to fade, you know, everybody knows that, you know, the blush comes off the rose after a while a week or two or or three, but for men on every other week basis, over a period of years to have the experience of sitting with other like minded men, whom they know and feel safe with and whom they are willing to go deep with and be open with. That's really where the greatest amount of fit for men and their personal growth takes place.

D.J. Paris  19:38  
I agree. So I went through my breakthrough weekend in around 2010 or 11. I can't recall the exact year I know it's listed somewhere in the in the database, but I have been meeting with my group as well since then. There I took one point I had to take six months offers For some silly reason, but, but I've been pretty consistent and haven't missed more than that. And it, it's only because I've, I mean, if nothing else, there's been tremendous friendships that have been. And if I got no other benefit, other than I get to see friends of mine every two weeks for a couple of hours, and I, and on top of that, not just seeing friends but being able to say, here's, here's where I'm struggling in my life. And by the way, guys, where are you struggling? And let's all help each other. Is it? It really is I think that has been for me. Incredibly important. For just me feeling less lonely in life. Yeah, in addition to also getting some benefit from people that have been to some now to some degree trained by Victory staff on how to hold these meetings, how to protect the meeting. So anyway, I think, you know, we do a lot of promotion, within victories about the weekends, and they are amazing, and they are the first kind of step in, but it's really, you know, at this point 1% of my time and victories has been at the weekend. And now 99% has been after care in this, this PGG group and I I just I yeah, I think this idea of building really strong long term and your case, you still are in contact with men from 30 years ago. That's, that's powerful.

Kevin Fitzpatrick  21:31  
Yeah, speaking of which, if I can share this experience. Every every summer, I take a motorcycle trip up to northern Wisconsin, it's a bit of a retreat, you know, I ride I rest, I read, I nap, I swim. I meditate, I do yoga. And there's a man living up there in northern Wisconsin in Managua area, Carl Nelson, who was in the very first weekend that Paul and I left. So every time I go up there every year, Carl and I get together and we have breakfast, and it's just a great, you know, a great connection. After after all those years. And when I was when I was up there this past August, the first week in August. I was talking with Carl and he was he knew that Paul and I had retired from breakthrough weekend leadership after leading our the June 2022 weekend. And he was reminiscing and I'm gonna I'm gonna get emotional myself here. When I talk about this. He was talking about he goes, you know, if I hadn't had done that weekend with you guys, my life wouldn't be what it is today. And and both of us were sitting on a bench in a park and we're both kind of teary and, and weeping. But it was just a beautiful, a beautiful statement about the how meaningful that experience was really for both of us. But but for Carl you know, what, 30 some plus years ago, and and how it really changed the course of his life.

D.J. Paris  23:19  
Yeah, it's been my experience that men who stick with the the PGG groups and continue to participate within victories at whatever level they can seem to get tremendous benefit, which keeps them engaged and involved. And it there is a sense of gratitude that I hear oftentimes with speaking with victories members, because again, this is a pretty unique experience that you can continue to have on a, you know, twice monthly basis, if you so choose. And it really does change the direction of one it can change the direction of someone's life. So you you now are we're back now in the early 90s. You're you're not just participating as as as a member, you're now leading weekends, you're learning more about, you know, the intricacies of that you're making adjustments to the program. At what point when do you and Paul, start discussing creating a second weekend because you I want to talk a little bit about the shadow weekend. So can you tell us a little bit about when you decided to do that, and then what the aim of that was?

Kevin Fitzpatrick  24:35  
Sure. Well, it was during a period where, you know, both of us had had done our own weekends and we were leaving weekends and it was a it was a creative time of a lot of I would say emotional and psychological intensity. You know, add to that the work that we're doing professionally, and the, you know, the union concept of the shadow really resonated with, with both of us, and I'll come back to that in a second. And you know, particularly with Paul, he's been, you know, someone who has studied, you know him for many, many decades. But according to Jung, the archetype of the shadow is those parts of ourselves that we have been cut off from those parts of ourselves that have been unacceptable to, you know, to our caretakers figure, you know, early on, when we're little our enthusiasm, or our sexuality or our intensity or our playfulness. It can be, you know, really anything. But those parts get shunted off. And there's a lot of energy in those, and it takes energy to keep those parts suppressed. Okay. Robert Bly, who was the you know, recently died, poet who was very instrumental in men's movement in, in the 70s. And 80s, used to talk about the long bag, we drag, drag behind us, you know, it's, it's a great image, you know, that all these parts, you know, that get put in the bag, and, you know, we're dragging them behind us as we as we go along. So, you know, Paul, and I decided that there was really a need to take men deeper, and take ourselves deeper in, in the process. So we started working on, you know, constructing a weekend, that was really designed around this notion of the shadow, and bringing the shadow into the light to help men really own and take responsibility for the parts of themselves that maybe have been operating, you know, under underground. So when when we do that, a lot of energy becomes available, the energy that's been spent denying or suppressing these distasteful parts of our, you know, the parts of us that are selfish, the, you know, the parts of us that are angry, and other parts of us that are needy, you know, I'm not doing a great job of explaining it right now. But

D.J. Paris  27:47  
I think you're you are doing a great job. I always think when, as you were saying that I was thinking as, as, as we think back to childhood, I remember a lot of Be a good boy, and the baby things that don't fit in the Be a good boy. sort of context. Yeah,

Kevin Fitzpatrick  28:02  
yeah. So what what we know is that for, for us to really lay claim to these disowned parts and become more familiar with them, take responsibility for them, we, you know, we we form a relationship with them. And, you know, it's, it's a way in which we make friends with our shadow, and stop denying those parts of ourselves. And the more that we can do that, the less likely it is that those parts of ourselves are going to sabotage us that are going to harm ourselves or harm our relationships.

And, and they do, and they are, they can and do harm relationships, and which is, meaning, you know, if, you know, if I'm an angry person, I wanted to get your thoughts on this, if I'm an angry person, if I have anger within me, that's not being expressed in a healthy way. My guess is that anger is still got to come out somewhere. And it would that possibly come out in ways that are, are actually harmful.

Of course, yeah, of course, you know, it'll come out in you know, intimate relationships and marriages or friendships or work situations. But yeah, it'll, it'll, it'll come out in a way that is counterproductive.

D.J. Paris  29:32  
And if I heard you correctly, this idea of being honest with oneself and getting to a place where one can acknowledge that I have these parts that I maybe don't particularly like, but they're there and getting aware of of them as maybe an ally as opposed to an enemy and somehow making a connection with that those parts. What ends up happening is a risk. Once there is that connection between, you know, the part of me that now has to accept, yeah, I do have these kind of distasteful or ugly parts of my personality that, that are there and what ends up happening when when someone gets in touch with that

Kevin Fitzpatrick  30:17  
we become more whole. You know, we work with this idea, you know, it's kind of a Venn diagram of, you know, there's what's called the persona. This is another union concept, or archetype. And the persona is a tickets a Latin word for mask, or face. And that's, that's what that's our game face. That's what we let the world see. Okay. And that's what's acceptable. And then, and then the shadow, as we've been talking about, about is another part of ourselves that's kept in the dark. So if you if you imagine a circle of the persona and a circle of the shadow, and the intersection of those where those two meet and overlap in a Venn diagram is, is a tremendous amount of energy, and wholeness. That comes from joining those, those two parts of ourselves.

D.J. Paris  31:16  
Yeah, it sounds really sounds magical in a way, because I know, as men, the sort of distasteful parts of men from a societal perspective, or maybe a parental perspective,

there isn't much, there doesn't seem to be a lot of resources out there for men to get in touch with, to have a structure to know what to do with these parts of themselves, that they know are problematic or could potentially be problematic. But there's there isn't like a lot of here's what to do, and here's where to go. And I think most parents probably haven't been trained, although I think it's better today. I see my friends who have children, I see a lot more of tell me how you're feeling what's going on, you know, whereas I, there wasn't as much of that I think in the zeitgeist of parental, you know, sort of training. And so it is exciting to see a little bit more, you know, connection between parents and children around around challenges. But, but there still isn't a whole lot to this. So I love the fact that you and Paul created this, you know, the structure that that seems to seems to be incredibly effective. So do you. So when did you start leading the shadow? When were you guys ready to start, you know, doing the shadow weekends?

Kevin Fitzpatrick  32:41  
Well, I don't know. You know, I'm really bad at remembering years, the few years that I've mentioned are the ones that I remember. So I can't tell you exactly when we started doing it. But as victories has grown as an organization, and that may be another thing, we want to talk about more weekends, you know, it started with the break through weekend, and then the shadow weekend was created. And eventually, the the wisdom years, weekend was created. And the wisdom years weekend is a weekend for men over the age of 50. And it is a weekend in which the focus is on issues of say maybe the latter third of life, and addresses, issues of aging, of health, of you know, aging, aging, dealing with aging parents, as well as our own aging, issues of mortality. And the things that go along with that stage of masculine development is not just masculine development, but since we're, you know, a men's organization, that's what gets focused on. So along the way here, these other weekends have been created and have have created kind of a bit of a curriculum, you know, in a sequence that, you know, we it's not hard and fast, but we recommend that men start with the breakthrough weekend. And the breakthrough weekend often has to do with our own healing and addressing the ways in which we've been we've been hurt or injured, emotionally and psychologically. The Shadow weekend, in contrast, really deals with ways in which we hurt. we hurt ourselves, we hurt other people, we hurt our communities, we hurt the environment. Okay. So that's the kind of the second step. There's another weekend. That is called the best self that that takes men who have done the breakthrough weekend and the shadow weekend. And then the question is how do I optimize and put together all that I've learned to really be my best self, how do I really own my gold and live an optimal life as as a man. And then when men reach the age of 50, or more than they're eligible for the, you know, from the wisdom years weekend, and we've also created a couple's weekend that has been very successful and, and a very, very well received. So victory says really, as an organization has grown and expanded from what started not as a mom and pop program, but a pop and pop with Buddy and vibe. And over the years evolved under the guidance of Kurt Schultz, who is no longer with us, sadly, but he really, you know, kind of brought us forward as an organization and helped us become a 501 C three organization and created an administrative structure with bylaws and really got us functioning the way a not for profit organization has, has to has to function. So it really has provided some some structure to and some organization to victories.

D.J. Paris  36:22  
You thank you for for that, that's really a wonderful sort of overview of the services victories provides, and, and also the history of how it developed. I, you are also not just a weekend leader, not just a participant yourself, app, you are also are not just the architect of some of the weekends, but also you are part of the board of directors. And I only because I so you know, this is such a great opportunity. Because the probably this episode will be listened to by a lot of current victories, members and men who have participated in victories events in the past. And, you know, I just because I have the opportunity to speak to a victories board member would love to just get a sense of what, what is the board? What is their? What are their goals? I think that that would be interesting to people. In other words, what is the board aiming to do? What problems are they trying to solve? And, you know, what do they actually just do? I guess, is the question.

Kevin Fitzpatrick  37:34  
Well, that's a good question. I hope I can give an articulate answer. But, you know, the Lord obviously has a responsibility of overseeing the overall health and wellness of the organization and helping the organization grow. It's kind of, you know, the administrative Lea a lot of committees kind of feed into the board. And so, one of the, one of the areas of growth of victories. And something that board is in support of and has nurtured is the creation of a diversity, equity and inclusion committee that has been in existence for I think, four years now. I'm not exactly sure. But, but, but roughly, and, and so, the DEI committee has worked very, very hard. It's a very vital and important committee within victories. And they're working on some really exciting, exciting programmatic events that are that are coming up. And but one thing that dei committee has, has been instrumental in is bringing us to the, you know, making us aware of the need to, to get help with diversity, equity and inclusion victories has primarily been, you know, I'll just say it, you know, a white, middle and upper middle class North suburban, you know, organization. And that's not enough, you know, it's inadequate. And so, we, we've gone through a process of interviewing a number of dei consultants that the DEI committee has recommended, and I'm happy to say that we've, you know, we've come to a selection and have contracted with a man who's going to become, you know, working with us, as you know, working with the board working with committee members around issues of diversity, equity and inclusion.

D.J. Paris  39:58  
That's actually very exciting. As victories expands their reach, and the idea of reaching more men who might not get as much exposure to, to what victories offers, because maybe people in their individual communities haven't been exposed to victories is very exciting from a growth perspective and an ability to, you know, better meet the needs of people that don't look like, you know, maybe what victories members looked like in the past or maybe just are have different backgrounds experiences. Yeah. cultural identities. This is very, very exciting time, I imagine to be part of Yeah, it really

Kevin Fitzpatrick  40:45  
is. And we're making a shift. You know, for years, we've talked about wanting and needing to bring more diversity into victories, participation and men of color, and that a lot has happened. To truth be told some, you know, it's not nothing. But I think with the DEI committee and our consultant that we've that we've hired, there's really very, you know, very exciting changes afoot. And you know, the, there was just recently a wisdom IRS weekend last weekend, one week ago, and there's always a post weekend celebration after any victories retreat weekend. So I attended that that wisdom year celebration the other the other night, and there was a whole lot of diversity within not only the staff of of the weekend, but but in the participants. So there are a number of men of colors are men of color, there are gay men, and straight men and men of varying socio economic situations. And it was really pretty exciting to see that happening in ways that it has not, you know, heretofore has not happened.

D.J. Paris  42:06  
That is, we are going to just as a sneak preview, or just for everyone who's listening, we will be having members of the diversity equity inclusion committee on the show to talk specifically about their their goals, their work, what they're doing to reach men that, you know, again, might not have, have found victories on their own. So I think that is exciting for our audience to be able to hear, you know, some of those things, thank you for sharing that. I would love to pivot just just quickly into COVID and post COVID. Sort of what well, the world we now live in, which is, you know, somewhat of a return back to, to some degree of normalcy, but with with some, I think, some wounds that that maybe, you know, men have have faced and dealt with, you know, since since, you know, the COVID changed our ability to interact with each other. And I'm curious in your own private practice, as well as what you've seen within victories participants, sort of what men are needing right now and what challenges they've been facing as COVID made certain challenges, more more more prevalent. Just curious if you've seen any patterns for anyone out there who's listening who might be experiencing some of these challenges?

Kevin Fitzpatrick  43:32  
Yeah, great, great question, DJ, when, when COVID happened, you know, I'm stating the obvious here, a lot of things changed. My, my office mates and I, in our professional office space, had been together for many years, I have been in that office for 33 years. And our Elise came up for renewal. And it coincided with COVID. And it was a no brainer. I mean, we couldn't, you know, make a financial commitment to space that we couldn't use and didn't know when we'd be able to use so we moved out and, and, you know, I started doing my, my professional work over over zoom in a in a similar way, when, when COVID happened. We were unable to continue to do our weekends and conduct our weekends. So the question became, you know, maybe partly for my therapy practice, but let me address for victories. The question became, how does victories as an organization continue to to meet its mission? Under under the current circumstances, you know, how do we how do we do that? We're not just gonna roll over and wait until it's it's all done. So, thanks to the creativity of a number of men within victory. is something a program that I haven't mentioned yet called building meaningful connections was, was created. And it was a program that didn't, you know, exactly replicate the break through weekend. But it was an opportunity to gather a group of men and guide them through an experience that was as close to what we do on weekends as, as is possible virtually and over over zoom. And much to our, our delight, and somewhat To our surprise, after the first building meaningful connections, weekends, that was all virtual, all on Zoom. It was a fantastic success. Really, to my surprise, you know, there was a part of me that, that said, oh, you know, you know, we really, you know, can't do that it's not going to really work the way it needs to, but I was proven, proven wrong. So I know that those men continue to meet, you know, here two years later, and they're getting more involved in the victories and asking for more, and there have been subsequent building meaningful connections, weekends. And I think our we're going to continue to do that as as a way to offer the the experience in an alternate form other than we're also resuming in person weekends. But we're not going to throw out the building meaningful connections or BMC, as its, as it's referred to, because it really does meet a need, one of which is the inclusion of men who are not in this geographic area. You know, we've had a number of men that are out of towners, you know, in St. St. Louis, and Springfield and California and Washington State and you know, that all come together and have a victories growth experience from, you know, from afar. So I don't know if I remember what the question was, but I got going on that. So excuse me, if

D.J. Paris  47:20  
I diverted No, I'm glad you did mention building meaningful connections for anyone listening who thinks well, I don't live in the Chicagoland area, or I don't, it's not easy for me to travel there for an in person experience, or it's just not possible for me to travel there. This is now gives them an opportunity to participate in a program specific to understanding the challenges of virtual intimacy and creating solutions for that, and what what what issues have you seen in your private practice in the last several years, as we've all, you know, been, to some degree, probably, you know, traumatized because our lives have been changed as a result of of going through this unfortunate COVID experience. You know, I'm curious as, as just somebody who is, you know, been working in the private in a private practice for so many years? Have you seen a change in the issues that men are coming to you needing help with in the most recent years?

Kevin Fitzpatrick  48:27  
You know, I don't think I've seen a change in the issues, but I, I think it would be a lot more accurate to say that I've seen a, you know, increase in the intensity of those issues. The, you know, maybe first and foremost of which is a sense of isolation. Yeah. Okay. I think that I think all of us human beings, men and women, we crave for connection. Okay. And, and it's often hard for men to connect in, you know, deep, deep ways that really, you know, that really fill fulfill that, you know, that need. And we've talked about the ways that happens on on weekends, but during the during COVID and quarantine and the the isolation of that experience, I think there's been those issues have exacerbated the feelings of loneliness. I do think that there's been a deepening of feelings of depression or depressed mood of anxiety. And so it's not, not so much that there are new issues, but issues that have pre existed have intensified and been exacerbated. I don't know if that answers the question.

D.J. Paris  49:53  
It perfectly answers it. And I was thinking as you were mentioning, the loneliness. You know what was what I probably would have guessed you would have mentioned seeing more of. And I'm, as you were saying that I was like, okay, that that makes sense to me. And then I was thinking, what a wonderful solution victories has for that, in addition to doing one's own work. The idea of building, you know, again, pardon the pun, but beating building meaningful connections, whether Yeah, yeah, literally, or in person in an in person. Weekend, this idea of, you know, getting this secondary benefit of maybe reduced loneliness, maybe now I have met Yes, where I've bared my soul, I've told the truth in a way that I can't to my spouse, or to my best friends, because even though my best friends, you know, love and accept me, maybe we just don't have that kind of structure in place. So it's not like, maybe we don't feel comfortable sharing, you know, and so we now have this sense of, Well, I don't know who to go to. And, you know, I used to, I mean, me personally, I used to just go to my parents with that, even as an adult with my challenges, because I didn't want to burden my friends, which I've now learned, wouldn't be a burden to my friends. But I was scared that it would be, I was scared that men just don't talk like that to other men. And I only people I could think to talk up and I was, I was lucky enough to have parents who wanted to hear about my struggles. Not everyone has that. But that was my only option. Yeah, and it wasn't a particularly great option. Because I'm now getting my into my parents are wonderful, but they have their own lens that they look through, they did not had, you know, certain training that that, you know, victories would provide and, but that was all I had. And so I bet there's a lot of our listeners out there, who probably can identify with not having a group where I can really fall apart to some degree and fall apart. And, you know, everything's, you know, in the toilet night, and I need somebody to prop me up as I'm, as I'm slumped over, but somebody that I can say, hey, this is really painful, yeah, to be real,

Kevin Fitzpatrick  52:07  
with, to be real with what you know, one of the things that we ask of guys that participate in our programs, is to refrain you know, is to, to not use their last name, not talk about what they do for a living, not talk about sports, not talking about politics, not talking about religion. And, and, you know, when we remove those things, because, you know, there's nothing wrong with those topics, and they're often easy topics for men to tie. How about those bears? Right, you know, but it's, it's a certain level of superficiality. But by removing those things, we really clear the way for being real with with one another in the ways that you, you know, that you just referred to,

D.J. Paris  52:51  
it is it and to me, when I went through my weekend, that was, that was the best benefit for me personally was, now I have a group of people that I do not feel unsafe, or scared to. I mean, there's still a little bit of apprehension if I want to share something that maybe I'm embarrassed about or ashamed of, but I know there's a place I can go. And it's also allowed me to have deeper conversations with my closest friends who aren't a member of victories, and learning how to say, you know, I have this thing over there at victories that I would love to, I would love to deepen our friendships and our my relationship with you, you know, so and so friend. And, you know, I want you to feel safe to come to me and share challenges, and I want to, to be able to share with you, and much to my chagrin, when I've had those conversations with my friends, they're like, Oh, this is great. I want to do this too, because there is seemingly a need for us to have those relationships where we can do that. And our spouses or our friends or our families, you know, may or may not be the place to do that it might not be a safe environment. And so victories allows me not just to have that circle of friends where I can share, but also to to go to my closest people to me and say, I want I want more of what I have over here with us. And I have found that that was actually really well accepted by my friends who have not done victories programming.

Kevin Fitzpatrick  54:27  
Yeah. Great.

D.J. Paris  54:30  
I'd love to talk about you know, I think we've talked about where victories is heading. You know, you talked a lot about what you know, some committees are working on for taking victories sort of forward into the present and future. Curious if you have any thoughts about if someone's listening to this episode, who has not participated in a victories program? What they should maybe look for victories to help them with so that they can start to think about whether a program makes sense.

Kevin Fitzpatrick  55:06  
Another great question TJ. One of the another program of victories that I haven't mentioned yet is a program called the open circle. And the open circle is, is a meeting of men that that have not done victories retreat weekends, it's really just an opportunity for men to get together in a circle and to talk about whatever they want to talk about, you know, we kind of encourage, you know, refraining from sports and politics, etc. We, in victories are notorious for talking from the heart. And, and so the open circle is one of our programs, and, you know, you can learn about this on the victories website. And, you know, that meets, I don't know, their exact schedule, but there is leadership provided and, you know, one of one of the victories men, George Rieger has really been instrumental in, in growing that that program, and he's just been of service to men, for many, many years at this point, so that that is available, there's no charge for it, either. I think there's still meeting virtually. And if men are looking for a place to go to feel a little less isolated. That is a point of entry. Many men, then, you know, they get an exposure to victories talk and victories, you know, what we're about and then go on to participate in some of the other programs. But that is something that is a integral part of our overall victories, programming and available to anybody. So as I said, information about that is on on the website. Another thing that I want to mention is our weekend programs, our weekend retreats, there is a fee for it. And I believe it's $690. This, this is for the residential programs that start on Friday evening, it's room and board for the entire weekend. And it's the the entire programming for the entire weekend. And we have a policy within victories that any man who wants to participate in our programs, we will find a way to make that happen, and we won't let the fee for the program. Prevent that man from coming. So there are ample scholarship monies available. And so we don't want the cost, you know, we have to rent facilities. I mean, you know, there's expenses, we have to pay for the food for, you know, 25 or 30 Min, you know, throughout an entire weekend, and pay the facility where the retreats are taking taking place. So we didn't have expenses to meet victories is other than a part time paid administrator victories is entirely 100%. Volunteer. Okay, nobody earns any money, other than our part time administrators. So. So, you know, monies are available to facilitate men participating in our programs who might have issues with paying, you know, paying the cost of participating. So the open circle and the scholarship monies are, you know, a couple of things that I wanted to mention in response to what you just asked.

D.J. Paris  58:58  
Those are both really important points. And for anyone who would like more information about the open circle, as Kevin said, you can visit victories for men.org, which is the homepage or weather website rather. And also in the show notes of this episode, there will be a direct link to the open circle for an ad for scholarship opportunities, so that men who want to get involved can start to learn about those entry points and the resources that are available. So just check out our show notes. There'll be a direct link to the open circle and and also we should mention that the website is going to be shortly undergoing a an over overhaul and it's going to be made much cleaner and easier to navigate easier to find information we know it's a it's a bit cumbersome at the moment because there's so much going on. And now there is leadership is war Working, I'm on the marketing committee for victories. And a lot of conversation is now being discussed about how to make the website a little bit more accessible and easy to navigate. So if you're struggling to find information on there, we hear you, and it is being fixed. You can also always reach out to victories via email, which is also on the homepage, if you're unable to find something, but we will provide some resources in the show notes about how to get access to the some of the programming as well as the open circle, for those that want to get or move, move forward within victories. My last question, Kevin is just, you know, I want to speak just for a moment, or have you speak or talk about men who have participated in victories, but over time, circumstances have prohibited them from continuing to meet with their groups, maybe they've moved or changed careers or their schedules changed, and they for or maybe their group, just, you know, broke up over time. I know, this happened to me, within a few years of attending, the the men that were in my group, were just, it would geographically became really challenging for them to continue to meet in a single location, this is pre COVID, where we were meeting in person. So you know, for anyone out there who would like to reconnect with victories and really is feeling disconnected ever since not participating as much, you know, what, what might you recommend to those men?

Kevin Fitzpatrick  1:01:37  
Well, in the past, we've had a person who was in the position of, let's call it the, the personal growth group coordinator. And they kind of oversaw all the operations they saw, you know, saw to it that, that train leadership would be available to, you know, start working with each graduating group from a weekend retreat, and that person also would serve the function of trying to, to link orphans, if you will, the group you're referring to, with existing, operating PGG groups, so, you know, to help them join existing groups. Now, that position, you know, with COVID, and everything, that position kinda hasn't really existed, were in the process of trying to recreate it. And, you know, there's one person in particular who may move into that into that role. So I can't say that there is currently a mechanism to meet the need that you just talked about, of men who've, you know, moved away or fallen away or gotten involved, and they want to get really involved. There's no really good mechanism, other than I will say, that Ben can always call the office and leave a voicemail and say, This is who I am. And I'd like to get connected up with, with a group, again, an existing group.

D.J. Paris  1:03:17  
Yeah, and I will say that on the Marketing Committee, which you might not have even known that we have done this, we have built, we believe we have identified, if not all of the active personal growth groups that are still still meeting regularly, we believe we've identified probably 95%, if not all of them here locally. And so if you are a man who is in a geographically, you know, disadvantaged area for meeting in person, a lot of the group growth groups are meeting virtually, and, and there are many that are meeting in person again, as well. And we believe we have identified where those groups meet, if they're meeting virtually, if they're meeting in person, if they're looking for men to join, we believe we have a pretty solid list. So even though there isn't maybe a coordinator in place, who can easily sort of figure out some options, we do have the data and there are people, you know, working at victories who can reach out to some of these groups and say, Hey, are you looking for new members, we have a man who would like to get more involved who you know, is has been disconnected for some time. I know this happened to me. Many years ago, when when my group disbanded. I was looking for a play and I thought, Well, geez, maybe if I reached out to victories, they maybe find a group for me and that's exactly what happened to me. So I'm living proof that it works. And I've been meeting with my group now for ever since for about six years, regularly and thank goodness that somebody had victories was a able to say, oh, yeah, there, here's a group that that would maybe be interested in chatting with you and, and so there are those opportunities. So for those of you listening who have participated, but maybe aren't participating as much anymore, we can we can help there are we have those, thankfully, I think we have enough resources now to, to be able to give you some some options. So

Kevin Fitzpatrick  1:05:21  
another another function that PGG coordinator has served in the past, and maybe we can do a little bit of this now, kind of informally, until someone's in place in that role is helping groups merge. Because through attrition, sometimes the numbers dwindle, and get down to a low level where there doesn't feel like there's enough critical mass or energy in the group anymore. So in those instances, in the past, we've identified those those groups and help them merge to, you know, to create a new, a new group, where the numbers are higher, and there's kind of more, you know, more energy, so that is an option as well.

D.J. Paris  1:06:09  
Okay, Kevin, I, you have shared so much during this during this conversation, and greatly appreciate on, you know, on behalf of everyone who is connected to victories in some way, obviously, your contributions have been, well, very obvious in this conversation, and, obviously, something that that is in just an incredible part, a credible amount of time that you've put in and energy. And as, as you are winding down your professional practice, you seem as as engaged in ever in victories, and it's truly remarkable. So we appreciate, obviously, your your continued commitment to the organization and what you've provided, you've not only just been there you've also built programs and and also are continue to serve, you know, at the behest of the organization to continue to push it forward. So, you know, that is that is a very special place. And I'm glad we were able to hear more about your story and why you do what you do, and why you continue to be involved in victories all these years later. So thank you for sharing that so earnestly On this episode, and you're welcome. And we want to remind everyone, if you aren't connected to victories, or if you were previously connected, and one wish to reconnect, that is the those are the best messages we can get as either I want to learn more, or I want to reconnect, please don't hesitate to reach out the victory staff, I've always had this idea that we would have this incredibly large staff that would be calling all of these people at all times going, Hey, we want you back. But of course that that's difficult, we don't have the resources to do that. So we're doing it now we're saying please, if you are interested, we want to talk to you. And so let us know, reach out to the organization, and somebody will do everything they can to get you connected and get you involved in the right program or the right group. So reach out, you know, email, phone, it's all on the website, we'll put them in the show notes as well. Get involved. And you know, at the retreat, find the benefits that victories is looking to to provide to you and whether you're economically disadvantaged, or, or have, you know, the income to purchase to attend a weekend, you know, we'll like Kevin said, it will be figured out for you. So don't let those obstacles get in the way. So, Kevin, on behalf of everyone listening, we thank you for your continued service, your support showing up on a Saturday, this is a Saturday morning, by the way that Kevin is giving to the organization to be on the show. That's a big commitment. We honor you for that. And on behalf of Kevin and myself, we want to honor everyone for listening and for participating. This is very exciting. We ask that you just do well, two things. One, if you want to get more involved with victories or maybe you want to serve on a committee, maybe you have ideas about how to take the organization forward. Yes, we would love to hear from you. Or maybe you just want to get involved because you want to learn what these programs can offer you. Or maybe you want to just tell other people in your life, how important victories has been for you? Yes, please tell a friend. At the very least we asked just tell one friend who may be struggling about this podcast, we want to reach them so that maybe they can you know learn more about what we offer. So if everyone out there listening just thinks of one other person that maybe could benefit from hearing this wonderful conversation with Kevin, please send them a link to the episode it really will help us continue to reach more people who might get some benefit. So Kevin, thank you so much. And we will see everybody on the next episode. You're

Kevin Fitzpatrick  1:09:59  
welcome. Um, DJ, and thank you for doing the podcast. really greatly appreciate that. And it's a great service to victories that you're doing this. Well, it's

D.J. Paris  1:10:08  
my pleasure. And thank you very much. We'll see everyone next time. Thank you. Bye bye

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