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[Speaker 0]
Sullivan Correctional Facility just outside Foolsburg, New York

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[Speaker 0]
State. It's a maximum security prison, home to

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[Speaker 0]
some of America's most violent criminals. One of

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[Speaker 0]
them is Arthur j Shawcross. Shawcross has murdered

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[Speaker 0]
eleven women and is serving a two hundred

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[Speaker 0]
and fifty year prison sentence. His case has

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[Speaker 0]
raised serious questions about what causes extreme violence

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[Speaker 0]
and what we understand about the nature of

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[Speaker 0]
evil itself. We've come to meet him face

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[Speaker 0]
to face to see if he would tell

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[Speaker 0]
us what made him such a violent killer.

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[Speaker 1]
People on the outside do not know what

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[Speaker 1]
evil is.

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[Speaker 0]
Do you know what evil is?

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[Speaker 1]
Sure. Are you evil? Somewhat.

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[Speaker 0]
Rochester, New York State, thirty miles from the

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[Speaker 0]
Canadian border. It's a provincial city of a

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[Speaker 0]
million people set set amongst the gorges and

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[Speaker 0]
falls of the Genesee River. It's a middle

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[Speaker 0]
class town, but it also has a dark

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[Speaker 0]
side. Lyle Avenue is a mile long drag

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[Speaker 0]
through one of the city's rundown neighborhoods, home

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[Speaker 0]
to its seedy red light district. In March,

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[Speaker 0]
nineteen eighty eight, women began disappearing from the

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[Speaker 0]
strip. Dorothy Blackburn was a twenty seven year

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[Speaker 0]
old prostitute and mother of three. Her body

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[Speaker 0]
was found in a nearby riverbed. She'd been

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[Speaker 0]
strangled to death. In July, Anne Marie Stephan,

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[Speaker 0]
a twenty seven year old cocaine addict also

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[Speaker 0]
went missing. Her decomposed body was found on

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[Speaker 0]
the banks of the Genesee River. Anne Marie

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[Speaker 0]
Stephan. Do you remember meeting her?

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[Speaker 2]
I

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[Speaker 1]
met Anne Marie Stephan's, I think, in front

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[Speaker 1]
of the

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[Speaker 0]
Fingerhut on Lake Avenue. Do you remember killing

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[Speaker 0]
her?

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[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Possibly. I'm not going into details here.

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[Speaker 0]
No. But how did you kill her?

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[Speaker 1]
Probably strangulation.

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[Speaker 0]
How do you know when they're dead?

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[Speaker 1]
How? I don't know. Just two. More or

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[Speaker 1]
less after they just relax, body relax, doesn't

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[Speaker 1]
fight no more. It only takes about four

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[Speaker 1]
minutes probably. Sometimes less than that.

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[Speaker 0]
To the outside world, Shawcross was just a

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[Speaker 0]
regular guy. He lived here in this apartment

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[Speaker 0]
on Alexander Street with his fourth wife, Rose.

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[Speaker 0]
He worked nights at the local cheese factory

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[Speaker 0]
and spent much of his free time fishing

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[Speaker 0]
the banks of the Genesee River. But he

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[Speaker 0]
was living a double life. He had a

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[Speaker 0]
mistress Clara and was a regular visitor to

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[Speaker 0]
Lyle Avenue. Got a wife, you got a

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[Speaker 0]
mistress, and you were also seeing prostitutes quite

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[Speaker 0]
regularly.

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[Speaker 1]
And other people. I guess I can say

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[Speaker 1]
I was enjoying myself.

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[Speaker 0]
For almost one year, Shawcross killed no one.

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[Speaker 0]
Then in July nineteen eighty nine, police found

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[Speaker 0]
the body of an elderly homeless woman, Dorothy

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[Speaker 0]
Keeler.

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[Speaker 3]
Dorothy was found down on, South Green Island

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[Speaker 3]
on the Genesee River, and, she was bones.

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[Speaker 3]
So we really didn't know at the time,

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[Speaker 3]
why he killed her.

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[Speaker 1]
She used to live in my house, in

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[Speaker 1]
my apartment,

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[Speaker 4]
for a while.

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[Speaker 1]
Is she a friend? She was till she

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[Speaker 1]
started stealing stuff out of the house. I

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[Speaker 1]
asked her why are you stealing? She just

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[Speaker 1]
needed money. And I said, you have a

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[Speaker 1]
bank account. I was paying her four dollars

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[Speaker 1]
and twenty five cents an hour just to

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[Speaker 1]
clean the apartment.

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[Speaker 0]
So she was thieving from you?

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[Speaker 1]
She was taken from me and my wife

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[Speaker 1]
Rose.

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[Speaker 0]
Does that warrant killing her? Does that warrant

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[Speaker 0]
killing her?

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[Speaker 1]
Well, to me, it did.

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[Speaker 0]
But Shawcross didn't just kill Dorothy Keeler. He

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[Speaker 0]
would later return to her dead corpse.

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[Speaker 3]
Annie came back and visited. He came back

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[Speaker 3]
and visited, and he took her skull, her

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[Speaker 3]
head, and threw it in the Genesee River.

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[Speaker 0]
After you killed her, you went back later

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[Speaker 0]
to see the body. Is that right?

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[Speaker 1]
No. I went back to clean up.

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[Speaker 0]
She was found with her head removed.

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[Speaker 5]
Did you Is that right?

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[Speaker 0]
How how did that happen?

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[Speaker 1]
He just pick it up and move it.

95
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[Speaker 0]
What? He just pulled the head off.

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[Speaker 1]
Yeah. It was already on.

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[Speaker 0]
Shawcross had now murdered three women, but his

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[Speaker 0]
blaze of terror had only just begun. In

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[Speaker 0]
Rochester, New York state, the bodies of murdered

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[Speaker 0]
women have begun appearing around the banks of

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[Speaker 0]
the Genesee River. And throughout the autumn of

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[Speaker 0]
nineteen eighty nine, the killings continued. On the

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[Speaker 0]
twenty seventh of October, Patricia Ives was found

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[Speaker 0]
strangled to death behind the town's YMCA. And

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[Speaker 0]
just four weeks later, the killings were to

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[Speaker 0]
take an even more sinister turn.

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[Speaker 3]
You know, the one that I I remember

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[Speaker 3]
the most and that's, stuck with me all

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[Speaker 3]
these years is a young woman by the

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[Speaker 3]
name of June Stott. And June, was not

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[Speaker 3]
was not a prostitute, but she was a

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[Speaker 3]
little slow. She had, acted much younger than

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[Speaker 3]
her age. I think the thing that was

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[Speaker 3]
most disturbing about it is that when her

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[Speaker 3]
body was turned over, she was on her

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[Speaker 3]
stomach. When they turned her over, he had

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[Speaker 3]
come back and eviscerated her, cut her open

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[Speaker 3]
right from the the neck right down to

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[Speaker 3]
the vagina.

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[Speaker 1]
That was a fit of anger. Mhmm. You

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[Speaker 1]
know, we spent a day down in Turning

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[Speaker 1]
Point Park, you know, feeding the ducks and

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[Speaker 1]
walking around, and we're making out. Then she

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[Speaker 1]
just flipped, you know, and jumped up, says,

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[Speaker 1]
I'm gonna scream scream. I'm gonna tell the

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[Speaker 1]
cops. I had snapped her snapped her neck.

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[Speaker 1]
Stayed there all day until dark, then, split

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[Speaker 1]
her open, come her neck to her groin.

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[Speaker 1]
I didn't go all the way deep into

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[Speaker 1]
that stomach area. Just split her open. I

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[Speaker 1]
don't know why.

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[Speaker 3]
Yeah. It was really disturbing because if you're

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[Speaker 3]
at that time, we didn't know who we

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[Speaker 3]
were looking for. Now you got a guy

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[Speaker 3]
who's certainly, we believe is the same guy,

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[Speaker 3]
but his his activity's increasing. His, what he's

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[Speaker 3]
doing at the scenes is becoming more severe

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[Speaker 3]
all the time.

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[Speaker 0]
The killing of June Stott was a turning

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[Speaker 0]
point for the police. A pattern was now

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[Speaker 0]
emerging. All of the murdered women were from

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[Speaker 0]
vulnerable backgrounds. Most of them had been slowly

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[Speaker 0]
strangled. Their bodies were being dumped around the

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[Speaker 0]
Genesee River and the killer appeared to be

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[Speaker 0]
revisiting and mutilating them. The Rochester police now

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[Speaker 0]
suspected they had a serial killer on their

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[Speaker 0]
hands, and they called in the FBI.

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[Speaker 6]
The situation on the ground when I first

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[Speaker 6]
arrived was a lot of stress, a massive

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[Speaker 6]
police involvement in this thing. There's no doubt

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[Speaker 6]
in their mind they had a serial killer

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[Speaker 6]
working up there. And, so you it's like

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[Speaker 6]
walking into a pressure cooker, you know, in

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[Speaker 6]
a way. It's just intense.

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[Speaker 0]
Police were chasing down hundreds of leads, and

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[Speaker 0]
yet somehow, the killer still seemed able to

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[Speaker 0]
blend into the background.

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[Speaker 6]
One of the big questions was, well, how

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[Speaker 6]
is he getting these women? These prostitutes are

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[Speaker 6]
scared to death, and they're being killed, yet

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[Speaker 6]
he seems to have no trouble getting them.

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[Speaker 6]
The answer is he's a regular client. They

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[Speaker 6]
know him. They go with him. They have

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[Speaker 6]
successful sex. He drives them back, drops them

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[Speaker 6]
off, no problem. So they're not afraid to

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[Speaker 6]
go with them. It's just some nights, it

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[Speaker 6]
goes terribly wrong. We're trying to think how

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[Speaker 6]
can these prostitutes

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[Speaker 7]
make these mistakes knowing that there is a

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[Speaker 7]
perpetrator on the street that is that's snatching

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[Speaker 7]
them right under police surveillance. I think the

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[Speaker 7]
prostitutes and maybe to a degree, some of

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[Speaker 6]
the investigators are looking for, like, a real

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[Speaker 6]
weird guy or somebody really, really out of

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[Speaker 6]
sync with what was going on when, in

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[Speaker 6]
fact, it was just the opposite. You want

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[Speaker 6]
to look for somebody who really was very

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[Speaker 6]
much attuned to that scene and very comfortable

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[Speaker 6]
in that environment.

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[Speaker 0]
But despite a massive police clampdown, the killing

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[Speaker 0]
continued. Undercover police officers now poured into Lyle

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[Speaker 0]
Avenue, posing as pimps and punters. But Shawcross

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[Speaker 0]
wasn't phased by their presence. He continued to

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[Speaker 0]
hang out on the street.

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[Speaker 1]
I'm sitting on a stoop and I got

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[Speaker 1]
shiny shoes on like a cop shoes, nice

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[Speaker 1]
dress. And this guy sits down beside me.

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[Speaker 1]
He starts talking about the case, pointing out

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[Speaker 1]
all the decoys. I'm laughing at him.

190
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[Speaker 0]
Why were you laughing at him?

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[Speaker 3]
Well, I

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[Speaker 1]
thought it was hilarious. You know? He didn't

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[Speaker 1]
know who I was, but he had to

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[Speaker 1]
open his mouth. He thought he was talking

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[Speaker 1]
to somebody on the team.

196
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[Speaker 0]
He was actually talking to the killer? Yeah.

197
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[Speaker 7]
We subsequently found out that he did hang

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[Speaker 7]
out at a Dunkin' Donuts, and and the

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[Speaker 7]
police would be in there themselves talking about

200
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[Speaker 7]
the the homicide investigation and what they were

201
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[Speaker 7]
doing, not giving up intimate details, but how

202
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[Speaker 7]
they were focused on on looking at every

203
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[Speaker 7]
vehicle that went down the road and maybe

204
00:11:20,935 --> 00:11:23,655
[Speaker 7]
writing down plate numbers and running datas. He

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[Speaker 7]
was listening to the that information and and,

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[Speaker 7]
even told them that, you know, that that

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[Speaker 7]
he had told his girlfriend to be careful

208
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[Speaker 7]
out there because there was a bad guy

209
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[Speaker 7]
out there that was picking up women and

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[Speaker 7]
killing them.

211
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[Speaker 0]
All this time, Shawcross kept up his normal

212
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[Speaker 0]
routine, working at the cheese factory, going home

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[Speaker 0]
to loyal wife, Rose. But the girls kept

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[Speaker 0]
going missing. On the seventeenth of December nineteen

215
00:11:53,714 --> 00:11:56,275
[Speaker 0]
eighty nine, June Cicero, one of the street's

216
00:11:56,275 --> 00:11:59,654
[Speaker 0]
most notorious hookers, disappeared from Lyell Avenue.

217
00:12:01,910 --> 00:12:03,990
[Speaker 7]
She was the madam of the streets. She

218
00:12:03,990 --> 00:12:07,030
[Speaker 7]
was the meanest prostitute in the city of

219
00:12:07,030 --> 00:12:10,170
[Speaker 7]
Rochester, and they all respected June Cicero.

220
00:12:11,830 --> 00:12:13,850
[Speaker 0]
Shawcross had picked her up in the Chevrolet

221
00:12:13,990 --> 00:12:16,645
[Speaker 0]
Celebrity that he borrowed from his mistress Clara.

222
00:12:17,985 --> 00:12:20,225
[Speaker 0]
How did June Cicero die? How did how

223
00:12:20,225 --> 00:12:21,285
[Speaker 0]
did you kill her?

224
00:12:22,065 --> 00:12:28,005
[Speaker 1]
Strangle her. Mostly my left hand.

225
00:12:29,510 --> 00:12:31,190
[Speaker 0]
Well, so you strangle them with just one

226
00:12:31,190 --> 00:12:31,690
[Speaker 0]
hand.

227
00:12:31,750 --> 00:12:34,810
[Speaker 1]
Right. Right there. Pressure point.

228
00:12:39,110 --> 00:12:41,610
[Speaker 0]
Shawcross drove the dead body of June Cicero

229
00:12:41,750 --> 00:12:44,865
[Speaker 0]
out of town towards nearby Northampton Park.

230
00:12:45,825 --> 00:12:50,084
[Speaker 1]
It was snowing real bad one night, and

231
00:12:50,545 --> 00:12:52,865
[Speaker 1]
I went out route nineteen, I think it

232
00:12:52,865 --> 00:12:55,024
[Speaker 1]
was, and I crossed over on thirty one,

233
00:12:55,024 --> 00:12:57,449
[Speaker 1]
headed back toward the city. And there was

234
00:12:57,449 --> 00:12:59,449
[Speaker 1]
no cars coming, and I just opened the

235
00:12:59,449 --> 00:13:02,649
[Speaker 1]
door and pushed her out. She went over

236
00:13:02,649 --> 00:13:05,230
[Speaker 1]
the bridge over to knock some snow down,

237
00:13:06,089 --> 00:13:11,255
[Speaker 1]
went down in the water. And And he

238
00:13:11,255 --> 00:13:12,955
[Speaker 1]
just closed the door and kept going.

239
00:13:18,775 --> 00:13:20,775
[Speaker 0]
The police were now to get a crucial

240
00:13:20,775 --> 00:13:23,895
[Speaker 0]
break. While searching Northampton Park for the body

241
00:13:23,895 --> 00:13:27,000
[Speaker 0]
of yet another missing woman, McCaffrey made a

242
00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:28,060
[Speaker 0]
dramatic sighting.

243
00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:33,240
[Speaker 7]
We were less than two minutes in into

244
00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:36,300
[Speaker 7]
the flight from Northampton Park back to Rochester

245
00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:42,225
[Speaker 7]
when we flew over Salmon Creek. And underneath

246
00:13:42,845 --> 00:13:47,404
[Speaker 7]
the bridge, I could see a body frozen

247
00:13:47,404 --> 00:13:48,225
[Speaker 7]
in the ice.

248
00:13:49,645 --> 00:13:52,620
[Speaker 0]
It was the body of June Cicero, and

249
00:13:52,620 --> 00:13:55,340
[Speaker 0]
then McCaffrey spotted a suspicious looking car on

250
00:13:55,340 --> 00:13:56,320
[Speaker 0]
the bridge itself.

251
00:13:57,500 --> 00:13:59,660
[Speaker 7]
The passenger door was open, and it appeared

252
00:13:59,660 --> 00:14:02,140
[Speaker 7]
that he had been urinating out of the

253
00:14:02,140 --> 00:14:05,440
[Speaker 7]
car, and and that's what we could see.

254
00:14:05,500 --> 00:14:09,115
[Speaker 7]
And as the helicopter flew by, he closed

255
00:14:09,115 --> 00:14:12,555
[Speaker 7]
the passenger door and slid across into the

256
00:14:12,555 --> 00:14:17,435
[Speaker 7]
driver's seat and started to proceed, easterly on

257
00:14:17,435 --> 00:14:18,300
[Speaker 7]
route thirty one.

258
00:14:19,899 --> 00:14:21,660
[Speaker 0]
It was what the police had been waiting

259
00:14:21,660 --> 00:14:25,260
[Speaker 0]
for. FBI profilers have highlighted the killer's pattern

260
00:14:25,260 --> 00:14:27,920
[Speaker 0]
of returning to the dead bodies, and McCaffrey

261
00:14:27,980 --> 00:14:29,519
[Speaker 0]
decided to follow the Chevrolet.

262
00:14:31,005 --> 00:14:33,585
[Speaker 1]
As I was driving to Spencerport, the helicopter

263
00:14:33,725 --> 00:14:37,485
[Speaker 1]
is flying above me. It didn't dawn on

264
00:14:37,485 --> 00:14:38,785
[Speaker 1]
me what was going on.

265
00:14:40,605 --> 00:14:44,600
[Speaker 0]
But the body of June Cicero was found

266
00:14:45,060 --> 00:14:46,579
[Speaker 0]
You're correct. Very close to where you were

267
00:14:46,579 --> 00:14:47,380
[Speaker 0]
on the bridge.

268
00:14:47,380 --> 00:14:49,640
[Speaker 1]
Yeah. That was just down the road away.

269
00:14:49,779 --> 00:14:52,260
[Speaker 1]
You know? It I didn't register what was

270
00:14:52,260 --> 00:14:55,240
[Speaker 1]
going on. I forgot she was there.

271
00:15:05,875 --> 00:15:11,315
[Speaker 7]
It is my belief that Shawcross returned to

272
00:15:11,315 --> 00:15:15,320
[Speaker 7]
the bridge to make sure that the body

273
00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:17,959
[Speaker 7]
was far enough under the bridge so we

274
00:15:17,959 --> 00:15:19,180
[Speaker 7]
couldn't observe it.

275
00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:22,839
[Speaker 0]
As the body of June Cicero was recovered

276
00:15:22,839 --> 00:15:25,000
[Speaker 0]
from under the ice, the driver of the

277
00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:27,480
[Speaker 0]
suspicious car was taken into questioning by the

278
00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:31,835
[Speaker 0]
police. Twenty one months into their investigation, police

279
00:15:31,835 --> 00:15:35,195
[Speaker 0]
had now finally pulled in Arthur Shawcross. And

280
00:15:35,195 --> 00:15:37,135
[Speaker 0]
when they ran his name through their system,

281
00:15:37,435 --> 00:15:40,649
[Speaker 0]
they found an astonishing personal history, a trail

282
00:15:40,649 --> 00:15:48,910
[Speaker 0]
of murder stretching back almost twenty years. Shawcross

283
00:15:48,970 --> 00:15:51,370
[Speaker 0]
had grown up around Watertown, a hundred miles

284
00:15:51,370 --> 00:15:58,555
[Speaker 0]
east of Rochester. In May nineteen seventy two,

285
00:15:58,694 --> 00:16:00,694
[Speaker 0]
an eight year old girl, Karen Hill, was

286
00:16:00,694 --> 00:16:04,615
[Speaker 0]
reported missing. Fearing she drowned, the police began

287
00:16:04,615 --> 00:16:06,555
[Speaker 0]
searching the banks of the Black River.

288
00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:17,360
[Speaker 8]
And, we went over the bank, and, I

289
00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:19,519
[Speaker 8]
went on one side, officer passed her one

290
00:16:19,519 --> 00:16:22,000
[Speaker 8]
on the other side, and he says, here

291
00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:26,355
[Speaker 8]
she is. I walked over under the bridge,

292
00:16:27,235 --> 00:16:30,274
[Speaker 8]
and we saw this little body, buried in

293
00:16:30,595 --> 00:16:32,675
[Speaker 8]
with the stones on her and her little

294
00:16:32,675 --> 00:16:39,014
[Speaker 8]
feet sticking up. We knew she was dead

295
00:16:39,154 --> 00:16:42,960
[Speaker 8]
because the whole upper torso was buried in

296
00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:49,840
[Speaker 8]
rocks, and, she was dead. You know, she

297
00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:50,580
[Speaker 8]
was cold.

298
00:16:55,165 --> 00:16:57,645
[Speaker 9]
And those guys are tough policemen, you have

299
00:16:57,645 --> 00:17:02,125
[Speaker 9]
to understand. And they they were walking up

300
00:17:02,125 --> 00:17:04,545
[Speaker 9]
from the embankment and just shaking their heads.

301
00:17:05,405 --> 00:17:10,159
[Speaker 9]
I heard one of them say, he stuffed

302
00:17:10,220 --> 00:17:14,140
[Speaker 9]
her mouth with dirt and mud to keep

303
00:17:14,140 --> 00:17:14,799
[Speaker 9]
her quiet.

304
00:17:18,620 --> 00:17:20,700
[Speaker 0]
A sniffer dog led the detectives from the

305
00:17:20,700 --> 00:17:23,365
[Speaker 0]
body of Karen Hill to Clover Street and

306
00:17:23,365 --> 00:17:27,205
[Speaker 0]
the home of Arthur Shawcross. Shawcross was then

307
00:17:27,205 --> 00:17:29,445
[Speaker 0]
twenty seven years old and was living with

308
00:17:29,445 --> 00:17:32,085
[Speaker 0]
his third wife, Penny. He'd had a troubled

309
00:17:32,085 --> 00:17:35,445
[Speaker 0]
childhood and a history of petty criminality. He

310
00:17:35,445 --> 00:17:37,545
[Speaker 0]
was arrested and brought in for questioning.

311
00:17:39,690 --> 00:17:41,370
[Speaker 4]
Well, he was a lot different then. He

312
00:17:41,370 --> 00:17:43,870
[Speaker 4]
was thin. He just out of the army.

313
00:17:44,810 --> 00:17:47,050
[Speaker 4]
He was in good shape. It looked like

314
00:17:47,050 --> 00:17:49,310
[Speaker 4]
he had very strong arms, very strong hands.

315
00:17:50,250 --> 00:17:53,945
[Speaker 4]
And when he was agitated, really agitated, it

316
00:17:53,945 --> 00:17:55,865
[Speaker 4]
was scary. You wouldn't wanna be in

317
00:17:55,865 --> 00:17:57,085
[Speaker 1]
the room with him alone.

318
00:17:58,505 --> 00:18:00,665
[Speaker 4]
He looked a little strange, to be honest

319
00:18:00,665 --> 00:18:03,225
[Speaker 4]
with you. And, I did not get in

320
00:18:03,225 --> 00:18:05,385
[Speaker 4]
the cell with him like I ordinarily would.

321
00:18:05,385 --> 00:18:07,305
[Speaker 4]
I would always stay outside the cell, so

322
00:18:07,305 --> 00:18:10,130
[Speaker 4]
we had to steal parties between us and

323
00:18:10,130 --> 00:18:11,110
[Speaker 4]
talk from there.

324
00:18:12,370 --> 00:18:14,610
[Speaker 0]
Police now spent three days trying to get

325
00:18:14,610 --> 00:18:16,390
[Speaker 0]
Shawcross to admit his guilt.

326
00:18:17,169 --> 00:18:19,890
[Speaker 4]
And it appears that he made, some sort

327
00:18:19,890 --> 00:18:23,955
[Speaker 4]
of a confession. It wasn't a airtight confession.

328
00:18:23,955 --> 00:18:25,875
[Speaker 4]
He said something to the effect either I

329
00:18:25,875 --> 00:18:27,235
[Speaker 4]
could have done it or I might have

330
00:18:27,235 --> 00:18:27,815
[Speaker 4]
done it.

331
00:18:28,195 --> 00:18:30,135
[Speaker 0]
What did you do to young Karen Hill?

332
00:18:30,195 --> 00:18:32,355
[Speaker 1]
I ain't saying. I told you I wouldn't

333
00:18:32,355 --> 00:18:36,130
[Speaker 1]
talk about that. I wasn't talking about anything

334
00:18:36,130 --> 00:18:37,350
[Speaker 1]
that happened in Watertown.

335
00:18:41,570 --> 00:18:44,310
[Speaker 0]
Why not? Because I

336
00:18:44,450 --> 00:18:47,570
[Speaker 1]
make that I'm not talking about anybody in

337
00:18:47,570 --> 00:18:49,995
[Speaker 1]
Watertown. You can either take it or leave

338
00:18:49,995 --> 00:18:50,495
[Speaker 1]
it.

339
00:18:53,755 --> 00:18:58,395
[Speaker 0]
But another child was missing too. Four months

340
00:18:58,395 --> 00:19:00,795
[Speaker 0]
earlier, ten year old Jack Blake had also

341
00:19:00,795 --> 00:19:04,050
[Speaker 0]
disappeared. Shawcross had often gone fishing with the

342
00:19:04,050 --> 00:19:06,530
[Speaker 0]
young boy and police suspected that he was

343
00:19:06,530 --> 00:19:09,890
[Speaker 0]
responsible, but they had no hard evidence. And

344
00:19:09,890 --> 00:19:11,890
[Speaker 0]
with only a vague confession linking him to

345
00:19:11,890 --> 00:19:14,530
[Speaker 0]
the death of Karen Hill, police decided to

346
00:19:14,530 --> 00:19:17,285
[Speaker 0]
offer Shawcross a deal. Tell them what he'd

347
00:19:17,285 --> 00:19:19,605
[Speaker 0]
done to Jack Blake and face a lesser

348
00:19:19,605 --> 00:19:21,705
[Speaker 0]
charge for the murder of Karen Hill.

349
00:19:23,684 --> 00:19:28,645
[Speaker 4]
So we had a conference in which, mister

350
00:19:28,645 --> 00:19:32,059
[Speaker 4]
Shawcross explained to them what happened and what

351
00:19:32,059 --> 00:19:34,380
[Speaker 4]
he did and how he killed the Blake

352
00:19:34,380 --> 00:19:39,020
[Speaker 4]
boy. This was part of the plea bargain

353
00:19:39,020 --> 00:19:41,179
[Speaker 4]
arrangement that he would he would explain that

354
00:19:41,179 --> 00:19:42,375
[Speaker 4]
case for them.

355
00:19:44,535 --> 00:19:46,615
[Speaker 0]
Shawcross directed police to the body of the

356
00:19:46,615 --> 00:19:49,015
[Speaker 0]
young boy, which they found by train tracks

357
00:19:49,015 --> 00:19:52,215
[Speaker 0]
just out of town. He was naked and

358
00:19:52,215 --> 00:19:54,615
[Speaker 0]
it seemed he'd been raped before being strangled

359
00:19:54,615 --> 00:19:59,920
[Speaker 0]
to death. But as part of his plea

360
00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:02,560
[Speaker 0]
bargain, Shawcross wasn't charged with the killing of

361
00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,200
[Speaker 0]
Jack Blake and faced a reduced charge for

362
00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:06,740
[Speaker 0]
the killing of Karen Hill.

363
00:20:09,675 --> 00:20:13,275
[Speaker 4]
Mister Shawcross plead guilty to to manslaughter. He

364
00:20:13,275 --> 00:20:15,775
[Speaker 4]
was given the maximum sentence, twenty five years.

365
00:20:16,795 --> 00:20:17,115
[Speaker 1]
Oh, the

366
00:20:17,115 --> 00:20:20,875
[Speaker 4]
public was outraged. They they were furious, and

367
00:20:20,875 --> 00:20:23,215
[Speaker 4]
they were, very upset about the plea bargain.

368
00:20:24,530 --> 00:20:28,549
[Speaker 4]
I'm sure the public, wanted a murder conviction.

369
00:20:30,130 --> 00:20:34,690
[Speaker 9]
People wanted justice. And no matter the law

370
00:20:34,690 --> 00:20:37,010
[Speaker 9]
had to be upheld, and nothing could be

371
00:20:37,010 --> 00:20:38,905
[Speaker 9]
done more than what was done, but it

372
00:20:38,905 --> 00:20:41,625
[Speaker 9]
was terribly frustrating for everybody. There's not more

373
00:20:41,625 --> 00:20:42,605
[Speaker 9]
could have been done.

374
00:20:46,585 --> 00:20:48,905
[Speaker 0]
Shawcross served less than fifteen years of his

375
00:20:48,905 --> 00:20:51,625
[Speaker 0]
sentence before being released on parole in April

376
00:20:51,625 --> 00:20:55,690
[Speaker 0]
nineteen eighty seven. Just fifteen months later, he

377
00:20:55,690 --> 00:20:57,930
[Speaker 0]
had settled in Rochester and his trail of

378
00:20:57,930 --> 00:20:59,310
[Speaker 0]
murder had begun again.

379
00:21:01,130 --> 00:21:05,130
[Speaker 10]
Had Shawcross been held responsible for murder in

380
00:21:05,130 --> 00:21:08,595
[Speaker 10]
the second degree and received what would have

381
00:21:08,595 --> 00:21:11,555
[Speaker 10]
been a well deserved maximum sentence of twenty

382
00:21:11,555 --> 00:21:13,395
[Speaker 10]
five to life at the time, I know

383
00:21:13,395 --> 00:21:14,835
[Speaker 10]
one thing as sure as I'm sitting here,

384
00:21:14,835 --> 00:21:16,695
[Speaker 10]
he would not have committed these other homicides.

385
00:21:23,250 --> 00:21:25,510
[Speaker 0]
Now armed with the knowledge of the Watertown

386
00:21:25,570 --> 00:21:28,210
[Speaker 0]
killings, the police in Rochester were convinced they

387
00:21:28,210 --> 00:21:30,210
[Speaker 0]
had their man, and they began to put

388
00:21:30,210 --> 00:21:31,990
[Speaker 0]
the screws on Arthur Shawcross.

389
00:21:33,935 --> 00:21:35,935
[Speaker 7]
There were several of the prostitutes that were

390
00:21:35,935 --> 00:21:40,095
[Speaker 7]
still missing, and they played on that, the

391
00:21:40,095 --> 00:21:42,655
[Speaker 7]
interviewers. And they said, look, Art, there's there's

392
00:21:42,655 --> 00:21:45,000
[Speaker 7]
there's girls out there that are missing that

393
00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:46,940
[Speaker 7]
that that we know you killed.

394
00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:50,040
[Speaker 3]
They had a stack of photographs of, the

395
00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:53,400
[Speaker 3]
victims, like a bunch of playing cards.

396
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:57,000
[Speaker 10]
And he took the stack and, like, a

397
00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:58,600
[Speaker 10]
deck of cards dealt out the ones that

398
00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:00,140
[Speaker 10]
he was responsible for.

399
00:22:00,335 --> 00:22:01,775
[Speaker 3]
And then they went back and talked to

400
00:22:01,775 --> 00:22:04,735
[Speaker 3]
him about each one, and he gave a

401
00:22:04,735 --> 00:22:06,515
[Speaker 3]
confession to each and every one.

402
00:22:07,615 --> 00:22:09,315
[Speaker 0]
Why did you confess to it?

403
00:22:10,415 --> 00:22:13,055
[Speaker 1]
Why? I just got tired of it after

404
00:22:13,055 --> 00:22:15,075
[Speaker 1]
fourteen or sixteen hours later.

405
00:22:16,890 --> 00:22:17,870
[Speaker 0]
Tired of what?

406
00:22:20,090 --> 00:22:24,570
[Speaker 1]
All the what was coming at me, I

407
00:22:24,570 --> 00:22:29,425
[Speaker 1]
just couldn't handle it. You are charged with

408
00:22:29,425 --> 00:22:32,005
[Speaker 1]
the violation of area one twenty five.

409
00:22:32,305 --> 00:22:34,945
[Speaker 0]
Police now had their confession, and Shawcross was

410
00:22:34,945 --> 00:22:36,885
[Speaker 0]
charged with the murder of eleven women.

411
00:22:37,025 --> 00:22:44,250
[Speaker 1]
Darlene Trippie, June Stock, Anna Stevin, Dorothy Blackburn.

412
00:22:45,430 --> 00:22:47,350
[Speaker 0]
As he was sent for trial, there was

413
00:22:47,350 --> 00:22:49,210
[Speaker 0]
no doubt that he had committed the murders,

414
00:22:49,430 --> 00:22:52,550
[Speaker 0]
but why had he done it? As medical

415
00:22:52,550 --> 00:22:56,010
[Speaker 0]
experts began to examine him, serious questions emerged

416
00:22:56,150 --> 00:22:58,835
[Speaker 0]
as to whether or not Arthur Shawcross might

417
00:23:00,455 --> 00:23:00,955
[Speaker 0]
actually

418
00:23:02,575 --> 00:23:05,195
[Speaker 1]
be insane.

419
00:23:06,815 --> 00:23:09,215
[Speaker 0]
Arthur Shawcross had now been arrested and was

420
00:23:09,215 --> 00:23:11,555
[Speaker 0]
awaiting trial for the murder of eleven women.

421
00:23:12,250 --> 00:23:14,169
[Speaker 0]
There was no doubt he had killed them,

422
00:23:14,169 --> 00:23:16,510
[Speaker 0]
but his defense team now set about exploring

423
00:23:16,570 --> 00:23:21,049
[Speaker 0]
a fundamental question. What made Arthur Shorcross act

424
00:23:21,049 --> 00:23:21,710
[Speaker 0]
so violently?

425
00:23:22,809 --> 00:23:25,470
[Speaker 5]
Everybody knows there's something wrong with Arthur Shorcross.

426
00:23:26,250 --> 00:23:28,945
[Speaker 5]
He's not a normal person. Everybody. You know

427
00:23:28,945 --> 00:23:31,184
[Speaker 5]
that just from the beginning. So what is

428
00:23:31,184 --> 00:23:34,304
[Speaker 5]
it? Could there be something neurologically wrong with

429
00:23:34,304 --> 00:23:34,804
[Speaker 5]
him?

430
00:23:35,024 --> 00:23:38,384
[Speaker 0]
Eminent neurologist Jonathan Pincus has examined the brains

431
00:23:38,384 --> 00:23:41,519
[Speaker 0]
of numerous serial killers and believes that damage

432
00:23:41,519 --> 00:23:43,600
[Speaker 0]
to certain areas of the brain is a

433
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:47,120
[Speaker 0]
major factor in causing extreme violence. The brain

434
00:23:47,120 --> 00:23:49,700
[Speaker 0]
scan of Arthur Shawcross fitted this pattern.

435
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:53,140
[Speaker 5]
If you have a lesion on the MRI,

436
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:55,935
[Speaker 5]
you've got an abnormality in the EEG coming

437
00:23:55,935 --> 00:23:58,255
[Speaker 5]
from exactly the same place and behavior that's

438
00:23:58,255 --> 00:24:00,895
[Speaker 5]
rather bizarre that comes from this part of

439
00:24:00,895 --> 00:24:04,415
[Speaker 5]
the brain. I think it's likely that the

440
00:24:04,415 --> 00:24:06,975
[Speaker 5]
abnormality of the brain has something to do

441
00:24:06,975 --> 00:24:09,880
[Speaker 5]
with his behavior. So much that I think

442
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,760
[Speaker 5]
that had he not been neurologically abnormal, I

443
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:14,920
[Speaker 5]
think he probably would not have been a

444
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:15,820
[Speaker 5]
serial murderer.

445
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:20,460
[Speaker 0]
But brain damage alone is rarely decisive. Shawcross

446
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,455
[Speaker 0]
was also subjected to an in-depth examination by

447
00:24:23,455 --> 00:24:24,995
[Speaker 0]
a senior Yale psychiatrist.

448
00:24:25,855 --> 00:24:28,735
[Speaker 11]
What we discovered and then were able to

449
00:24:28,735 --> 00:24:33,955
[Speaker 11]
verify was the fact that he was, horribly

450
00:24:34,495 --> 00:24:39,169
[Speaker 11]
mistreated sexually as a child. In the course

451
00:24:39,169 --> 00:24:42,710
[Speaker 11]
of the interviews, he relived some of that

452
00:24:43,570 --> 00:24:46,230
[Speaker 11]
experience, which was out of his conscious awareness.

453
00:24:46,850 --> 00:24:49,090
[Speaker 0]
Doctor Lewis led Shawcross through a series of

454
00:24:49,090 --> 00:24:52,034
[Speaker 0]
interviews, some conducted under a form of hypnosis.

455
00:24:52,735 --> 00:24:54,975
[Speaker 11]
What are you doing now? What's happening? What

456
00:24:54,975 --> 00:24:59,215
[Speaker 11]
what are you doing now? Art, why are

457
00:24:59,215 --> 00:25:06,170
[Speaker 11]
you holding your penis? Art, what's happening? Mom.

458
00:25:06,870 --> 00:25:09,830
[Speaker 11]
What's happened? What does mommy do?

459
00:25:09,830 --> 00:25:10,970
[Speaker 1]
Mom's got me.

460
00:25:11,990 --> 00:25:15,130
[Speaker 11]
Mom's got you now? What does she do?

461
00:25:17,625 --> 00:25:20,025
[Speaker 11]
Playing. Okay. And what's

462
00:25:20,025 --> 00:25:23,565
[Speaker 1]
happened? She started kissing me.

463
00:25:24,745 --> 00:25:27,005
[Speaker 11]
And what's happened? Why are you crying, ma'am?

464
00:25:27,544 --> 00:25:28,205
[Speaker 11]
It hurts.

465
00:25:30,230 --> 00:25:31,450
[Speaker 1]
What hurts, ma'am?

466
00:25:32,390 --> 00:25:34,390
[Speaker 11]
She's squeezing me. And what do you say

467
00:25:34,390 --> 00:25:35,909
[Speaker 11]
to mom? What do you say to mom?

468
00:25:35,909 --> 00:25:36,409
[Speaker 11]
No.

469
00:25:37,190 --> 00:25:40,169
[Speaker 1]
What do you say? Stop. No.

470
00:25:44,315 --> 00:25:45,615
[Speaker 0]
What did your mother do?

471
00:25:46,475 --> 00:25:48,955
[Speaker 1]
My mother gave me oral sex. She performed

472
00:25:48,955 --> 00:25:50,975
[Speaker 1]
oral sex on me for several years.

473
00:25:53,595 --> 00:25:54,095
[Speaker 2]
Mhmm.

474
00:25:56,715 --> 00:25:58,795
[Speaker 1]
And when I was fourteen years old, my

475
00:25:58,795 --> 00:26:02,470
[Speaker 1]
dad had intercourse, and I ran away. I

476
00:26:02,470 --> 00:26:05,830
[Speaker 1]
put a sign, note on my pillow in

477
00:26:05,830 --> 00:26:07,910
[Speaker 1]
my bedroom. I'm going to Syracuse, and I

478
00:26:07,910 --> 00:26:12,325
[Speaker 1]
turned around and went to Canada. I just

479
00:26:12,325 --> 00:26:13,865
[Speaker 1]
didn't wanna go home.

480
00:26:14,805 --> 00:26:16,105
[Speaker 0]
Because you were being abused?

481
00:26:17,285 --> 00:26:18,425
[Speaker 1]
Yes, sir. I was.

482
00:26:20,245 --> 00:26:23,385
[Speaker 11]
He very young, he ran away from home.

483
00:26:23,525 --> 00:26:25,925
[Speaker 11]
He used to hide under the teacher's desk.

484
00:26:25,925 --> 00:26:29,610
[Speaker 11]
He he was an extremely bizarre and troubled

485
00:26:29,610 --> 00:26:33,129
[Speaker 11]
child very, very early on. So that there's

486
00:26:33,129 --> 00:26:39,769
[Speaker 11]
a consistency to, to this history of, of

487
00:26:39,769 --> 00:26:40,215
[Speaker 11]
abuse.

488
00:26:45,174 --> 00:26:47,654
[Speaker 0]
Doctor. Lewis argued that the brain damage had

489
00:26:47,654 --> 00:26:50,135
[Speaker 0]
caused him to suffer a phenomenon known as

490
00:26:50,135 --> 00:26:51,195
[Speaker 0]
partial seizure.

491
00:26:56,120 --> 00:26:59,880
[Speaker 11]
Just prior to the murder, there would be

492
00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:05,160
[Speaker 11]
some event, very often some disagreement or some

493
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:08,775
[Speaker 11]
threat to him where, the woman may have

494
00:27:08,775 --> 00:27:11,015
[Speaker 11]
said, I'll tell your wife about this or

495
00:27:11,015 --> 00:27:15,275
[Speaker 11]
something. And then he would see bright, bright

496
00:27:15,815 --> 00:27:20,135
[Speaker 11]
white light. And then the next thing he

497
00:27:20,135 --> 00:27:22,375
[Speaker 11]
know, he would wake up and he would

498
00:27:22,375 --> 00:27:26,910
[Speaker 11]
wake up often in his car, and he

499
00:27:26,910 --> 00:27:28,750
[Speaker 11]
would look beside him and there would be

500
00:27:28,750 --> 00:27:33,330
[Speaker 11]
a body. He did not have conscious knowledge

501
00:27:33,390 --> 00:27:35,810
[Speaker 11]
of what he was doing or conscious control

502
00:27:35,870 --> 00:27:37,250
[Speaker 11]
over what he was doing.

503
00:27:38,435 --> 00:27:41,555
[Speaker 0]
Defense experts argued that like many other serial

504
00:27:41,555 --> 00:27:45,315
[Speaker 0]
killers, Shawcross suffered a toxic combination of physical

505
00:27:45,315 --> 00:27:46,375
[Speaker 0]
and mental damage.

506
00:27:47,635 --> 00:27:50,435
[Speaker 5]
I would say it's three things interacting. It's

507
00:27:50,435 --> 00:27:53,230
[Speaker 5]
brain damage, mental illness, and the experience of

508
00:27:53,230 --> 00:27:56,110
[Speaker 5]
having been abused. Every one of those things

509
00:27:56,110 --> 00:27:58,990
[Speaker 5]
is a factor in it. They interact so

510
00:27:58,990 --> 00:28:00,590
[Speaker 5]
that if you didn't have one of them,

511
00:28:00,590 --> 00:28:04,130
[Speaker 5]
the likelihood of violence would be tremendously reduced.

512
00:28:04,990 --> 00:28:06,990
[Speaker 0]
The defense entered a plea of not guilty

513
00:28:06,990 --> 00:28:09,845
[Speaker 0]
by means of insanity. In essence, they argued

514
00:28:09,845 --> 00:28:12,424
[Speaker 0]
that Shawcross was not responsible for his actions.

515
00:28:13,365 --> 00:28:15,524
[Speaker 0]
It was an argument that provoked derision from

516
00:28:15,524 --> 00:28:17,544
[Speaker 0]
both prosecution and police alike.

517
00:28:18,005 --> 00:28:20,585
[Speaker 6]
Few things are more tragic than the murder

518
00:28:20,644 --> 00:28:22,485
[Speaker 6]
of a beautiful theory by a gang of

519
00:28:22,485 --> 00:28:25,539
[Speaker 6]
brutal facts. And I think that's the answer

520
00:28:25,539 --> 00:28:27,700
[Speaker 6]
there. It's a beautiful theory, but it was

521
00:28:27,700 --> 00:28:29,480
[Speaker 6]
just laid low by the facts.

522
00:28:30,659 --> 00:28:34,179
[Speaker 10]
Claimed his mother put a broom handle, inserted

523
00:28:34,179 --> 00:28:37,559
[Speaker 10]
it into his anus, and shoved it up

524
00:28:37,779 --> 00:28:38,760
[Speaker 10]
was his description.

525
00:28:39,365 --> 00:28:40,885
[Speaker 11]
He had indeed worked

526
00:28:41,045 --> 00:28:44,585
[Speaker 10]
That clearly would have resulted in major trauma.

527
00:28:45,045 --> 00:28:47,225
[Speaker 10]
There was no evidence of any such trauma.

528
00:28:48,485 --> 00:28:50,085
[Speaker 10]
During the trial, I received a call from

529
00:28:50,085 --> 00:28:53,090
[Speaker 10]
his mother. She questioned, why is he saying

530
00:28:53,090 --> 00:28:54,690
[Speaker 10]
these things? I never why why are they

531
00:28:54,690 --> 00:28:55,669
[Speaker 10]
claiming these things?

532
00:28:55,970 --> 00:28:59,250
[Speaker 0]
Your mom has obviously denied that anything like

533
00:28:59,250 --> 00:28:59,990
[Speaker 0]
that happened.

534
00:29:00,370 --> 00:29:04,210
[Speaker 1]
Everyone would. Can you pitch what would happen

535
00:29:04,210 --> 00:29:07,005
[Speaker 1]
to a person if she admitted she did

536
00:29:07,005 --> 00:29:08,304
[Speaker 1]
shit like that to me?

537
00:29:09,325 --> 00:29:11,404
[Speaker 0]
I mean, they say they've said you know,

538
00:29:11,404 --> 00:29:13,085
[Speaker 0]
ask Arthur Shorcutt say, well, there was no

539
00:29:13,085 --> 00:29:15,825
[Speaker 0]
sexual abuse when you were younger.

540
00:29:16,125 --> 00:29:18,924
[Speaker 1]
How'd they know? I know because I I

541
00:29:18,924 --> 00:29:21,860
[Speaker 1]
was there. I know what I had to

542
00:29:21,860 --> 00:29:22,600
[Speaker 1]
go through.

543
00:29:24,420 --> 00:29:26,179
[Speaker 0]
Well, they say they checked all the medical

544
00:29:26,179 --> 00:29:26,679
[Speaker 0]
records.

545
00:29:27,380 --> 00:29:30,740
[Speaker 1]
I didn't have medical records when my mother

546
00:29:30,740 --> 00:29:33,105
[Speaker 1]
was abusing me. You think my mother took

547
00:29:33,105 --> 00:29:35,105
[Speaker 1]
me to a doctor because she was giving

548
00:29:35,105 --> 00:29:37,445
[Speaker 1]
me oral sex? That's bullshit.

549
00:29:40,225 --> 00:29:41,825
[Speaker 0]
If he was lying and he hadn't been

550
00:29:41,825 --> 00:29:43,925
[Speaker 0]
sexually abused, that would confound you?

551
00:29:44,530 --> 00:29:48,210
[Speaker 5]
It would. It would indeed. It's almost in

552
00:29:48,530 --> 00:29:51,030
[Speaker 5]
inconceivable that he was not sexually abused.

553
00:29:52,450 --> 00:29:54,850
[Speaker 0]
Crucial to the defense case was the argument

554
00:29:54,850 --> 00:29:57,650
[Speaker 0]
that Shawcross's mental seizures meant he had no

555
00:29:57,650 --> 00:29:59,270
[Speaker 0]
knowledge of what he was doing.

556
00:30:03,725 --> 00:30:05,165
[Speaker 10]
If you didn't know what you were doing

557
00:30:05,165 --> 00:30:07,325
[Speaker 10]
at all, why do you make efforts to

558
00:30:07,325 --> 00:30:11,085
[Speaker 10]
hide anything? Why do you deposit the bodies

559
00:30:11,085 --> 00:30:13,245
[Speaker 10]
in a Genesee gorge area where they're less

560
00:30:13,245 --> 00:30:17,520
[Speaker 10]
likely to be found? I think all those

561
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,640
[Speaker 10]
facts really speak to someone who knew exactly

562
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:21,620
[Speaker 10]
what he was doing.

563
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:26,100
[Speaker 5]
Prosecutor thinks that his upbringing was completely normal.

564
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,340
[Speaker 5]
This is just a man who was bad.

565
00:30:28,559 --> 00:30:31,835
[Speaker 5]
He's evil. And he killed those women because

566
00:30:31,835 --> 00:30:33,835
[Speaker 5]
he wanted to do it, and he enjoyed

567
00:30:33,835 --> 00:30:37,755
[Speaker 5]
doing it. That's not normal. I no matter

568
00:30:37,755 --> 00:30:40,475
[Speaker 5]
what the prosecutor feels is normal, that's not

569
00:30:40,475 --> 00:30:40,975
[Speaker 5]
normal.

570
00:30:41,450 --> 00:30:45,530
[Speaker 10]
Is somebody who kills a person mentally ill?

571
00:30:45,530 --> 00:30:50,650
[Speaker 10]
Probably. Is somebody who kills eleven people here

572
00:30:50,650 --> 00:30:53,710
[Speaker 10]
and has killed two kids before got issues?

573
00:30:54,345 --> 00:30:57,945
[Speaker 10]
Absolutely. But that's not the claim. It's not

574
00:30:57,945 --> 00:31:00,445
[Speaker 10]
the argument that they're not in some way

575
00:31:01,065 --> 00:31:04,184
[Speaker 10]
disturbed. The issue is you don't qualify for

576
00:31:04,184 --> 00:31:07,545
[Speaker 10]
an insanity defense. Shawcross knew what he was

577
00:31:07,545 --> 00:31:11,230
[Speaker 10]
doing. And if you know it's wrong, then

578
00:31:11,230 --> 00:31:13,389
[Speaker 10]
you're responsible for your acts. That's the way

579
00:31:13,389 --> 00:31:13,669
[Speaker 10]
it works.

580
00:31:13,870 --> 00:31:15,809
[Speaker 1]
Much as that's the

581
00:31:15,950 --> 00:31:18,909
[Speaker 0]
case. During the trial, the defense also argued

582
00:31:18,909 --> 00:31:21,730
[Speaker 0]
that Shawcross had been brutalized by his experiences

583
00:31:21,870 --> 00:31:25,365
[Speaker 0]
as a soldier in Vietnam. What happened in

584
00:31:25,365 --> 00:31:25,865
[Speaker 0]
Vietnam?

585
00:31:27,205 --> 00:31:30,885
[Speaker 1]
A lot of things happened in Vietnam. And

586
00:31:30,885 --> 00:31:33,545
[Speaker 1]
I went to Vietnam as a weapons specialist,

587
00:31:34,885 --> 00:31:37,125
[Speaker 1]
and I had my own bunker in just

588
00:31:37,125 --> 00:31:39,945
[Speaker 1]
outside of Canton, Vietnam, Central Highlands.

589
00:31:40,540 --> 00:31:42,860
[Speaker 0]
Shawcross claims he often ventured out into the

590
00:31:42,860 --> 00:31:45,660
[Speaker 0]
jungle as a one man unit, hunting down

591
00:31:45,660 --> 00:31:46,880
[Speaker 0]
enemy Viet Cong.

592
00:31:47,420 --> 00:31:49,420
[Speaker 1]
And I see a a woman in her

593
00:31:49,420 --> 00:31:53,115
[Speaker 1]
thirties is coming down this hill carrying two

594
00:31:53,115 --> 00:31:55,275
[Speaker 1]
AKs on this side and two AKs on

595
00:31:55,275 --> 00:31:57,755
[Speaker 1]
this side barreled down. So I reach over

596
00:31:57,755 --> 00:32:00,315
[Speaker 1]
my shoulder like this right behind my neck,

597
00:32:00,315 --> 00:32:02,255
[Speaker 1]
and I pull out a brand new machete.

598
00:32:03,035 --> 00:32:05,035
[Speaker 1]
When she backed out, I come up behind

599
00:32:05,035 --> 00:32:07,910
[Speaker 1]
her and took her head right there. I

600
00:32:07,910 --> 00:32:09,910
[Speaker 1]
took a couple of hits, but the head

601
00:32:09,910 --> 00:32:13,110
[Speaker 1]
came off. She body dropped to the ground.

602
00:32:13,110 --> 00:32:14,250
[Speaker 1]
She just bled out.

603
00:32:15,270 --> 00:32:17,270
[Speaker 0]
He claims he then set about cooking the

604
00:32:17,270 --> 00:32:20,150
[Speaker 0]
dead woman's body to extract information from her

605
00:32:20,150 --> 00:32:20,650
[Speaker 0]
friend.

606
00:32:22,005 --> 00:32:25,445
[Speaker 1]
I split the body in half, opened up

607
00:32:25,445 --> 00:32:27,285
[Speaker 1]
a pouch, and I had some c four

608
00:32:27,285 --> 00:32:30,565
[Speaker 1]
plastic explosives, lit a cigarette, just touched it,

609
00:32:30,565 --> 00:32:33,785
[Speaker 1]
and it started lit up like a miniature

610
00:32:33,845 --> 00:32:36,830
[Speaker 1]
sun. Mhmm. And I just laid the flesh

611
00:32:36,830 --> 00:32:39,070
[Speaker 1]
up on top of that stick. Alright? And

612
00:32:39,070 --> 00:32:42,210
[Speaker 1]
I bit into the into the flesh itself,

613
00:32:42,910 --> 00:32:44,990
[Speaker 1]
you know, just staring at her eyes, and

614
00:32:44,990 --> 00:32:48,945
[Speaker 1]
she urinated and defecated on herself. And she

615
00:32:48,945 --> 00:32:50,785
[Speaker 1]
talked to me in broken English, so she

616
00:32:50,785 --> 00:32:53,245
[Speaker 1]
told me everything I wanted to know. Mhmm.

617
00:32:53,345 --> 00:32:55,765
[Speaker 1]
I go in. I report it in, saluted

618
00:32:55,825 --> 00:32:59,345
[Speaker 1]
the the colonel. And he gets up, and

619
00:32:59,345 --> 00:33:01,985
[Speaker 1]
he says, you weren't sick, son of a

620
00:33:01,985 --> 00:33:03,365
[Speaker 1]
bitch, but I love you.

621
00:33:03,750 --> 00:33:05,590
[Speaker 6]
None of that, that we can tell is

622
00:33:05,590 --> 00:33:09,190
[Speaker 6]
true. His Vietnam experiences are greatly inflated and

623
00:33:09,190 --> 00:33:12,310
[Speaker 6]
exaggerated. There's no indication he ever went out

624
00:33:12,310 --> 00:33:15,030
[Speaker 6]
and shot anyone, much less cannibalized or did

625
00:33:15,030 --> 00:33:16,390
[Speaker 6]
any of the things that he claims to

626
00:33:16,390 --> 00:33:17,050
[Speaker 6]
have done.

627
00:33:17,895 --> 00:33:21,195
[Speaker 0]
But despite his vivid recollections of combat, Shawcross

628
00:33:21,335 --> 00:33:23,035
[Speaker 0]
found few comrades in Vietnam.

629
00:33:24,055 --> 00:33:26,795
[Speaker 1]
But I can't remember nobody's name in Vietnam,

630
00:33:26,855 --> 00:33:28,635
[Speaker 1]
and that messes me up.

631
00:33:29,255 --> 00:33:32,340
[Speaker 0]
War often forms very close relationships. You didn't

632
00:33:32,500 --> 00:33:35,779
[Speaker 0]
form friendships with anyone out there? No. You

633
00:33:35,779 --> 00:33:37,320
[Speaker 0]
don't remember anyone's name?

634
00:33:37,380 --> 00:33:40,820
[Speaker 1]
No. How long were you there for? Thirteen

635
00:33:40,820 --> 00:33:41,320
[Speaker 1]
months.

636
00:33:42,419 --> 00:33:44,520
[Speaker 0]
What was your official position in Vietnam?

637
00:33:45,125 --> 00:33:49,545
[Speaker 1]
I was a specialist, weapons specialist.

638
00:33:51,525 --> 00:33:53,525
[Speaker 10]
We were able to actually track down in

639
00:33:53,525 --> 00:33:56,885
[Speaker 10]
preparation his commanding officer, sergeant. I think I

640
00:33:56,885 --> 00:33:59,860
[Speaker 10]
even remember his name, sergeant Weaver. He was

641
00:33:59,860 --> 00:34:02,340
[Speaker 10]
a supply clerk. He didn't go out on

642
00:34:02,340 --> 00:34:03,480
[Speaker 10]
these secret missions.

643
00:34:03,700 --> 00:34:06,260
[Speaker 1]
You know, I'm not a bullshitter. Anything I

644
00:34:06,260 --> 00:34:09,060
[Speaker 1]
tell you is facts of life. If you

645
00:34:09,060 --> 00:34:11,380
[Speaker 1]
don't believe it, that's your prerogative. You can

646
00:34:11,380 --> 00:34:14,295
[Speaker 1]
do what you want. You know, everybody reads

647
00:34:14,295 --> 00:34:17,095
[Speaker 1]
what they want, believes what they want, you

648
00:34:17,095 --> 00:34:18,635
[Speaker 1]
know, and hears what they want.

649
00:34:20,055 --> 00:34:21,975
[Speaker 2]
Members of the jury, have you agreed upon

650
00:34:21,975 --> 00:34:23,435
[Speaker 2]
the verdict? Yes, ma'am.

651
00:34:23,974 --> 00:34:26,490
[Speaker 0]
After hearing three weeks of evidence, the jury

652
00:34:26,490 --> 00:34:29,050
[Speaker 0]
were unconvinced by the argument that Shawcross was

653
00:34:29,050 --> 00:34:31,690
[Speaker 0]
insane. They found him guilty on all the

654
00:34:31,690 --> 00:34:34,090
[Speaker 0]
counts of murder. He was sentenced to two

655
00:34:34,090 --> 00:34:48,785
[Speaker 0]
hundred and fifty years in jail. Shawcross has

656
00:34:48,785 --> 00:34:50,725
[Speaker 0]
spent the last eighteen years in a maximum

657
00:34:50,785 --> 00:34:55,130
[Speaker 0]
security prison. He's confounded numerous attempts by psychologists

658
00:34:55,430 --> 00:34:58,230
[Speaker 0]
to understand him. And like many other serial

659
00:34:58,230 --> 00:35:00,869
[Speaker 0]
killers, his crimes have given him a macabre

660
00:35:00,869 --> 00:35:01,369
[Speaker 0]
notoriety.

661
00:35:03,109 --> 00:35:07,315
[Speaker 1]
I get letters all over the world. I

662
00:35:07,315 --> 00:35:09,655
[Speaker 1]
get a lot of college students, college professors,

663
00:35:11,075 --> 00:35:16,595
[Speaker 1]
doctors, lawyers, psychiatrists, psychologists. Yeah. All kinds of

664
00:35:16,595 --> 00:35:18,615
[Speaker 1]
people from all walks of life.

665
00:35:18,835 --> 00:35:20,355
[Speaker 0]
Do you see yourself as something of a

666
00:35:20,355 --> 00:35:21,495
[Speaker 0]
celebrity here?

667
00:35:23,240 --> 00:35:30,359
[Speaker 1]
Of course. In what way? Well, everybody knows

668
00:35:30,359 --> 00:35:31,420
[Speaker 1]
what I'm here for.

669
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:34,460
[Speaker 0]
Do you enjoy the attention? Sometimes.

670
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:37,900
[Speaker 1]
Sometimes it gets to be a hassle.

671
00:35:41,215 --> 00:35:44,095
[Speaker 0]
And from his prison cell, Shawcross continues to

672
00:35:44,095 --> 00:35:47,695
[Speaker 0]
invent ever more imaginative justifications for his killing

673
00:35:47,695 --> 00:35:48,915
[Speaker 0]
of the women in Rochester.

674
00:35:51,855 --> 00:35:54,309
[Speaker 1]
When I picked those women up, I thought

675
00:35:54,309 --> 00:35:57,030
[Speaker 1]
I had AIDS because one of the women

676
00:35:57,030 --> 00:35:58,869
[Speaker 1]
who stopped in the car told me one

677
00:35:58,869 --> 00:36:01,049
[Speaker 1]
of the women I took out is HIV

678
00:36:01,190 --> 00:36:03,430
[Speaker 1]
positive. I didn't know which one of them

679
00:36:03,430 --> 00:36:05,190
[Speaker 1]
were, so I went back and picked up

680
00:36:05,190 --> 00:36:08,345
[Speaker 1]
all the ones I dated in two streets

681
00:36:08,345 --> 00:36:13,805
[Speaker 1]
in Rochester, and I started killing them. And

682
00:36:14,585 --> 00:36:16,424
[Speaker 1]
while I was doing that, I took the

683
00:36:16,424 --> 00:36:20,360
[Speaker 1]
vagina of three and ate it. Why? I

684
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,000
[Speaker 1]
don't know. Probably to speed up the the

685
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:28,620
[Speaker 1]
idea of, the AIDS disease.

686
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,955
[Speaker 0]
So you thought it might kill you quicker.

687
00:36:36,255 --> 00:36:36,755
[Speaker 1]
Probably.

688
00:36:38,575 --> 00:36:40,175
[Speaker 0]
Just not a lot of people that I've

689
00:36:40,175 --> 00:36:42,115
[Speaker 0]
ever spoken to have eaten human flesh.

690
00:36:42,255 --> 00:36:45,615
[Speaker 1]
They're eating raw steak. They're eating steaks. They

691
00:36:45,615 --> 00:36:47,075
[Speaker 1]
got the fat on the end of it.

692
00:36:48,335 --> 00:36:49,155
[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Similar.

693
00:36:52,230 --> 00:36:53,430
[Speaker 0]
But when you were hauled in by the

694
00:36:53,430 --> 00:36:55,610
[Speaker 0]
police, did you make any mention of the

695
00:36:55,670 --> 00:37:00,470
[Speaker 0]
HIV? No, sir. I did not. Suppose it's

696
00:37:00,470 --> 00:37:02,070
[Speaker 0]
because some people might say, well, isn't that

697
00:37:02,070 --> 00:37:04,810
[Speaker 0]
just an excuse to justify killing?

698
00:37:05,744 --> 00:37:12,944
[Speaker 1]
You believe what you wanna believe. I told

699
00:37:12,944 --> 00:37:14,865
[Speaker 1]
you how I killed, why I killed. You

700
00:37:14,865 --> 00:37:17,365
[Speaker 1]
don't wanna believe it. That's up to you.

701
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:21,800
[Speaker 0]
One thing, however, remains a taboo subject, the

702
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:25,320
[Speaker 0]
killing of the two children in Watertown. You're

703
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,620
[Speaker 0]
prepared to talk about what happened in Vietnam

704
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:31,404
[Speaker 0]
and killing all these prostitutes. But I just

705
00:37:31,404 --> 00:37:33,164
[Speaker 0]
wondering why you're prepared to talk about it

706
00:37:33,164 --> 00:37:34,065
[Speaker 0]
and not Watertown.

707
00:37:34,365 --> 00:37:37,164
[Speaker 1]
I don't wanna talk about it. You say

708
00:37:37,164 --> 00:37:38,785
[Speaker 1]
one more question, I leave.

709
00:37:41,645 --> 00:37:44,480
[Speaker 6]
Certainly, he knows how we all feel about

710
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,760
[Speaker 6]
murdering children. It's just, obviously, you know, probably

711
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,480
[Speaker 6]
the most reprehensible thing anyone anyone can do.

712
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:52,800
[Speaker 6]
And he he understands that, but the problem

713
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:54,400
[Speaker 6]
is he can't justify it. He can't come

714
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:56,560
[Speaker 6]
up with a selling point or a way

715
00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:58,605
[Speaker 6]
to mitigate that. So but he's just just

716
00:37:58,605 --> 00:37:59,905
[Speaker 6]
not gonna talk about it.

717
00:38:01,405 --> 00:38:03,725
[Speaker 0]
But in two thousand and one, someone was

718
00:38:03,725 --> 00:38:06,045
[Speaker 0]
to enter Shawcross's life who would force him

719
00:38:06,045 --> 00:38:09,405
[Speaker 0]
to confront his darkest demons, the daughter he

720
00:38:09,405 --> 00:38:20,359
[Speaker 0]
never knew he had. In two thousand and

721
00:38:20,359 --> 00:38:24,119
[Speaker 0]
one, Arthur Shawcross received dramatic news. Whilst on

722
00:38:24,119 --> 00:38:25,800
[Speaker 0]
leave from the army in the early nineteen

723
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,005
[Speaker 0]
sixties, he had a brief romance with a

724
00:38:28,005 --> 00:38:31,444
[Speaker 0]
woman in Hawaii. Forty years later, the child

725
00:38:31,444 --> 00:38:34,645
[Speaker 0]
from that relationship, Maggie Deming, discovered who her

726
00:38:34,645 --> 00:38:37,224
[Speaker 0]
father was and decided to make contact.

727
00:38:39,285 --> 00:38:41,525
[Speaker 2]
My husband at first was like, you know,

728
00:38:41,525 --> 00:38:42,930
[Speaker 2]
don't go there. You You know? Do you

729
00:38:42,930 --> 00:38:46,690
[Speaker 2]
realize that he killed children? And I said,

730
00:38:46,690 --> 00:38:48,530
[Speaker 2]
well, I can't just shut the door on

731
00:38:48,530 --> 00:38:50,530
[Speaker 2]
this. You know? You know? This is a

732
00:38:50,530 --> 00:38:52,609
[Speaker 2]
part of my life that I just can't

733
00:38:52,609 --> 00:38:53,510
[Speaker 2]
close the door.

734
00:38:54,050 --> 00:38:56,915
[Speaker 0]
What did you feel when you met him

735
00:38:56,915 --> 00:38:58,195
[Speaker 0]
for the first time when you went to

736
00:38:58,195 --> 00:38:58,695
[Speaker 0]
prison?

737
00:39:01,875 --> 00:39:07,955
[Speaker 2]
Apprehensive, nervous. I didn't didn't know what to

738
00:39:07,955 --> 00:39:12,720
[Speaker 2]
think, you know, what to say. Hi, dad.

739
00:39:12,940 --> 00:39:19,820
[Speaker 2]
You know? He was very genteel. He was,

740
00:39:20,300 --> 00:39:26,194
[Speaker 2]
very soft spoken, very grandfatheredly to my daughter.

741
00:39:26,895 --> 00:39:28,835
[Speaker 2]
He he joked around a lot.

742
00:39:30,255 --> 00:39:32,115
[Speaker 0]
What about, your daughter, Maggie?

743
00:39:32,734 --> 00:39:38,174
[Speaker 1]
She's cool. I seen her just before you

744
00:39:38,174 --> 00:39:38,994
[Speaker 1]
showed up.

745
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:41,920
[Speaker 0]
Does does your daughter Maggie know what you

746
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:43,200
[Speaker 0]
did? Does she know the details of what

747
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:46,720
[Speaker 1]
you did? Has the information of everything. I

748
00:39:46,720 --> 00:39:48,480
[Speaker 1]
told her things that you wanna know, but

749
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:49,700
[Speaker 1]
you're not gonna get.

750
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:52,180
[Speaker 0]
Like what?

751
00:39:53,625 --> 00:39:57,465
[Speaker 1]
You know what you're talking about. Things that

752
00:39:57,465 --> 00:39:59,965
[Speaker 1]
happen in that other place.

753
00:40:00,025 --> 00:40:01,325
[Speaker 0]
What's the town? Right.

754
00:40:02,585 --> 00:40:04,905
[Speaker 2]
The children that he had killed, the chill

755
00:40:05,065 --> 00:40:07,020
[Speaker 2]
the their ages are about the same age

756
00:40:07,020 --> 00:40:13,260
[Speaker 2]
as my children are now. What he did

757
00:40:13,260 --> 00:40:16,400
[Speaker 2]
to them, like I said, was a pretty

758
00:40:16,700 --> 00:40:21,505
[Speaker 2]
graphic thing, And that's gonna be between him

759
00:40:21,505 --> 00:40:24,225
[Speaker 2]
and his maker. That's gonna be between him

760
00:40:24,225 --> 00:40:25,045
[Speaker 2]
and his maker.

761
00:40:27,025 --> 00:40:29,345
[Speaker 0]
Maggie has seven children of her own, and

762
00:40:29,345 --> 00:40:31,105
[Speaker 0]
she's been keen to make sure that they

763
00:40:31,105 --> 00:40:33,765
[Speaker 0]
too have a relationship with their imprisoned grandfather.

764
00:40:34,980 --> 00:40:38,180
[Speaker 2]
My older children know what he'd done. My

765
00:40:38,180 --> 00:40:43,400
[Speaker 2]
younger children don't. And my father kinda, like,

766
00:40:43,620 --> 00:40:46,020
[Speaker 2]
said to me, you know, it's best that

767
00:40:46,020 --> 00:40:47,940
[Speaker 2]
the younger ones don't know. But sooner or

768
00:40:47,940 --> 00:40:51,235
[Speaker 2]
later, they're gonna find out. They don't really

769
00:40:52,575 --> 00:40:54,735
[Speaker 2]
advertise the fact that their their grandfather was

770
00:40:54,735 --> 00:40:55,715
[Speaker 2]
a serial killer.

771
00:40:56,495 --> 00:40:59,055
[Speaker 0]
Both Maggie and the grandchildren have become regular

772
00:40:59,055 --> 00:41:00,835
[Speaker 0]
visitors to Shawcross in prison.

773
00:41:01,990 --> 00:41:04,330
[Speaker 1]
Do do you love Maggie? Very much.

774
00:41:05,110 --> 00:41:06,410
[Speaker 0]
And do you love your grandchildren?

775
00:41:06,710 --> 00:41:09,270
[Speaker 1]
Right. I write to them all the time.

776
00:41:09,270 --> 00:41:11,510
[Speaker 1]
They send the the grandchildren, the kids, and

777
00:41:11,510 --> 00:41:15,830
[Speaker 1]
the in school, they send me their, school

778
00:41:15,830 --> 00:41:19,405
[Speaker 1]
tests and different things, What they do in

779
00:41:19,405 --> 00:41:23,405
[Speaker 1]
the schools, send me pictures, and I draw

780
00:41:23,405 --> 00:41:26,065
[Speaker 1]
their picture. I do portraits.

781
00:41:28,365 --> 00:41:30,150
[Speaker 0]
This is a horrible thought, but, I mean,

782
00:41:30,309 --> 00:41:33,349
[Speaker 0]
if someone were to, you know, rape and

783
00:41:33,349 --> 00:41:35,770
[Speaker 0]
kill your grandchildren, what should happen to them?

784
00:41:37,349 --> 00:41:39,990
[Speaker 1]
That's up to the law. But what do

785
00:41:39,990 --> 00:41:40,069
[Speaker 1]
you

786
00:41:40,069 --> 00:41:41,349
[Speaker 0]
think should happen to them?

787
00:41:41,349 --> 00:41:42,809
[Speaker 1]
That's up to the law.

788
00:41:43,775 --> 00:41:45,215
[Speaker 0]
But what would you think of them as

789
00:41:45,215 --> 00:41:48,335
[Speaker 0]
a father, as a grandfather? I would be

790
00:41:48,335 --> 00:41:54,415
[Speaker 0]
devastated. Right? Do you have any comprehension of

791
00:41:54,415 --> 00:41:57,060
[Speaker 0]
the suffering that you've brought the families of

792
00:41:57,060 --> 00:41:58,360
[Speaker 0]
the people that you killed?

793
00:41:58,500 --> 00:42:02,120
[Speaker 1]
I don't have any remorse for some reason.

794
00:42:05,380 --> 00:42:07,060
[Speaker 0]
But I find it strange that you can

795
00:42:07,060 --> 00:42:09,460
[Speaker 0]
have you clearly feel affection for your your

796
00:42:09,460 --> 00:42:12,974
[Speaker 0]
daughter and your grandchildren. Strange. But you can't

797
00:42:12,974 --> 00:42:15,795
[Speaker 0]
feel any empathy for all those people that

798
00:42:15,934 --> 00:42:18,335
[Speaker 0]
the families of all the people that you

799
00:42:18,335 --> 00:42:19,714
[Speaker 0]
killed. Yeah.

800
00:42:21,694 --> 00:42:27,380
[Speaker 1]
It's not there. Like I said, on one

801
00:42:27,380 --> 00:42:30,900
[Speaker 1]
side and the other side, I know something

802
00:42:30,900 --> 00:42:33,640
[Speaker 1]
inside me is weird.

803
00:42:39,615 --> 00:42:43,635
[Speaker 2]
These events happened so far back in time.

804
00:42:46,095 --> 00:42:51,535
[Speaker 2]
These these things you really can't forget. These

805
00:42:51,535 --> 00:42:54,480
[Speaker 2]
sort of things you can't really forgive on

806
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,040
[Speaker 2]
the part of those parents, you know, having

807
00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:01,040
[Speaker 2]
to live through that. I don't regret the

808
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:03,600
[Speaker 2]
fact that he's my father. I can't change

809
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:09,105
[Speaker 2]
it. And I don't see Arthur Shawcross from

810
00:43:09,105 --> 00:43:12,965
[Speaker 2]
Watertown with my children in two thousand eight

811
00:43:13,265 --> 00:43:17,765
[Speaker 2]
in Sullivan Correctional. Totally different people. Totally different.

812
00:43:22,359 --> 00:43:24,520
[Speaker 1]
There's always a bad man in me. You

813
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:27,160
[Speaker 1]
never can get rid of it. He's behind

814
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:30,119
[Speaker 1]
a door somewhere. I'm trying to keep him

815
00:43:30,119 --> 00:43:32,300
[Speaker 1]
there. I don't wanna hurt nobody else.

816
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:33,660
[Speaker 0]
Really?

817
00:43:34,119 --> 00:43:34,619
[Speaker 1]
Really.

818
00:43:36,505 --> 00:43:38,505
[Speaker 0]
Just a final question, Arthur. I mean, what

819
00:43:38,505 --> 00:43:42,825
[Speaker 0]
what why won't you talk about the the

820
00:43:42,825 --> 00:43:47,865
[Speaker 0]
two young people? It's over. Disconnect. Not because

821
00:43:47,945 --> 00:43:49,385
[Speaker 0]
is it because you're ashamed of it?

822
00:43:49,385 --> 00:43:51,630
[Speaker 1]
It's disconnect if this

823
00:43:51,630 --> 00:44:01,789
[Speaker 0]
is over. Okay. Oh, thank you very much

824
00:44:01,789 --> 00:44:02,609
[Speaker 0]
for your time.

825
00:44:06,365 --> 00:44:08,045
[Speaker 12]
And he put his arms around us and

826
00:44:08,045 --> 00:44:11,005
[Speaker 12]
was just do exactly what I say. He

827
00:44:11,005 --> 00:44:13,660
[Speaker 12]
put his arm around my mouth and picked

828
00:44:13,660 --> 00:44:14,160
[Speaker 12]
me

829
00:44:14,460 --> 00:44:15,980
[Speaker 13]
up and put me in his boot. I

830
00:44:15,980 --> 00:44:18,220
[Speaker 13]
just froze. I couldn't talk. I couldn't scream.

831
00:44:18,220 --> 00:44:20,540
[Speaker 13]
I couldn't do nothing. But the whole time,

832
00:44:20,540 --> 00:44:22,460
[Speaker 13]
I was just looking at Lisa, and her