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When in the course of human events, it

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becomes necessary for 1 people to dissolve the

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political bands, which have connected them with another.

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And to assume among the powers of the

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Earth, the separate and equal station to which

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the laws of nature and of nature's god

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ent them,

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8 decent in respect to the opinions of

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mankind requires that they should declare the causes

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which imp them to the separation.

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Now that of course, is the opening of

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the manifesto

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of the British labor party for the upcoming

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general election on the fourth of July.

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Actually, is from the declaration of independence, which

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was

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declared,

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not signed

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on the fourth of July,

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17 76.

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However, we are recording this on the second

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of July, which is the the day it

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was actually signed,

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in the year 2024.

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And the United Kingdom, ironically is holding a

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general election on the fourth of July in

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2 days.

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So we, a short circuit thought that this

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would make for an episode where we can

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tie our 2 nations together

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in some way. So we're gonna do that

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today on Short Circuit. Your podcast from the

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federal Courts of Appeals. I'm your host Anthony

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Sanders director of the center for Judicial engagement,

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at the Institute for justice. So, again, recording

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this July second, so some of you listening

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to this

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after July fourth, we'll,

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know a little bit about what happens over

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in the Uk when they have, their election

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thingy in a couple days But we had

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our revolution thingy a long time ago,

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and,

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some of you

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may know,

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some of the details of what that means

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as that

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constitutional matter. Now we often hear about it

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the fourth of July, how we threw off

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the king and, you know, we didn't have

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the king over the United States anymore, and

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we're gonna have a Republic and blah blah

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blah. That's all very well known. What sometimes

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get, we forgotten is that we didn't just

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reject the British King,

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but the British

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system, the system of having a parliament that

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can

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do whatever it wants. And so instead we

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had a written

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constitution and

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constitutional law of that nature instead of the

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British constitution. But we did a funny thing

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at the same time.

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We kept

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the British or the English really,

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legal

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system. So we kinda got a new constitutional

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system, kept the legal system, and we even

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constitutional

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some of the legal system

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like the right to a jury trial.

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So,

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anyway, I wrote about some of this in

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a piece that just came out discord

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not discord.

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That's the chat thing.

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Discourse magazine,

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run by our friends at the Mer center,

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So we'll put a link at the show

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notes to that. If you wanna read about

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the

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connections between Britain and America, but how America

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is different, especially when it comes to...

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Judicial review.

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But today, we thought it would be fun

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to talk about some stuff that unites the

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2 countries, including this thing about a jury

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trial. So we have 2 cases

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about,

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some looser than others, a British American

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connection. 1 of them is a big case

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that just came out at the supreme court.

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So usually, you don't to do supreme court

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opinions on this show But this is a

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big case.

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We have,

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experts who know, a lot about this this

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area. We even are lit

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these same kinds of... Claims here at I.

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So I thought it was perfect to bring

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back a very recent guest to the show,

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and that is Rob Johnson because Rob

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is actually a lawyer in these other I

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j cases.

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We also though are having Andrew Ward back

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to the show he's been here many times

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before. And this time he is going to...

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He's gonna also give his opinion about this

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this new case Jar Sec versus Jar from

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the Supreme Court. But then he's gonna take

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us on a little bit of a crime

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keeper

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that has to do with a British consul.

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So

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gentlemen,

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Welcome back to short circuit.

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It's good to be here. Yeah. Thanks for

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having us. I feel like I should be

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clapping for the excellent words of... Personal favorite

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founding father, Thomas Jefferson that you that you

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opened with there. Go america.

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You know, they say he wasn't the the

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only author of the declaration,

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it's it's it's little disputed exactly how many

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of those words are are his, but but

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thank you nonetheless.

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So,

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Rob,

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Jar.

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This

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people were watching this case. It was a

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little unclear what was gonna happen, but it

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seems like it's a pretty big deal.

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When all is a sudden and done.

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Yeah. It's huge. It's probably the biggest opinion

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of the term at the court. And and

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since we are talking about the circuit courts,

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I have to say, you know, the fifth

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circuit had a rough

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term at the... At the supreme court. They

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got

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reversed. I'd...

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I... I'm gonna get the exact numbers wrong.

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I I think I read somewhere 7 cases

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and they got reversed in 5 of them,

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which, you know, 2 of them I cases.

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Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, on on the

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plus side for the fifth circuit, they got

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affirmed here,

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and this is probably the biggest case of

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the term. So maybe this is like an

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example of, you know, you you got swing

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big

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if you wanna hit home runs, and, you

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know, you're gonna miss a bunch, but then

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maybe,

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you know, I, yeah, from the fifth gets

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opinion perspective, like, maybe it's worth it. Right?

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You get

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reversed a ton, but then the 1 time

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you get affirmed at, like, is gonna completely

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change the structure of the federal

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bureaucratic state in significant ways that that you

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like. So, you know, the the gets a

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lot of

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You know, they... People make fun of them

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for their

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reversal rate, but, you know, maybe it's maybe

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they're onto to something.

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So so... Yeah. So,

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the...

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This case is a

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It arises out of an Sec proceeding where

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the Sec and imposed hundreds of thousands of

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dollars of penalties on this guy, George Dark.

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Who is a...

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Really interesting figure. He's a tea party guy.

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He's politically active. He also runs hedge funds

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hedge funds with, like, sort of tea party

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names like Patriot 28 and things like that.

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And he gets

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accused by the Sec of of various

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wrongdoing

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and gets this huge monetary fine,

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and he then goes to Federal Court, and

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he says, hey, this is the kind of

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thing

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that you have to do in a real

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court. You know, if you're gonna find somebody,

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you can't do that in an agency court

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where you don't get a jury and where

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the judge is employed by the very same

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administrative agency,

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that employs the prosecutors. You gotta go to

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a real court

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and give people a real judge in a

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real jury.

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And

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when he, you know, first starts this,

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you know, I j had... We we've had

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a number of cases where we've been raising

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these claims.

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But for the most part, this is, like,

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you know, greeted with

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shock and disdain from the legal establishment. It's

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like, oh, no. That's not that's not how

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this works. You know, agencies all across the

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federal bureaucracy.

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Are, you know, imposing fines on people all

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the time and it's surely that's not

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unconstitutional.

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But then the fifth circuit issued this huge

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dark the opinion.

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And they they said, actually, no, it is

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on unconstitutional,

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and it was greeted with,

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you know,

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front page New York Times article, like, this

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is the end of the world.

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And, yeah know. It's this this solicit general

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petition for Sir, the court granted. And and

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then the court

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affirmed. Ed so, you know, I guess the

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world has ended.

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Well,

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I feel fine.

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Yeah. I know at the end... It's the

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end of the world and we all feel

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fine. I think. You know, and so the

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ups shot of this opinion is the Supreme

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Court basically says.

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That

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you know, if you are going to take

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somebody's

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money by finding them,

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and you're gonna impose this kind of a

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fine for some sort of wrongdoing.

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That that's the sort of thing that historically

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at common law

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in the courts of Westminster.

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There's our British connection. Had to be tried

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to a jury in the common law courts,

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and

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we have the seventh amendment that is trying

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to preserve the right to trial by jury.

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So

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in America today,

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you still gotta try that to a jury.

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There's no Sec exception to the right to

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a jury. Why is that in the constitution,

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Rob? Why did it why did they care

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so much in the late eighteenth century about

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trial by jury? What an excellent question.

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Well, that, you know, so this gets us

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to the justice gorsuch that writes this just

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excellent concur.

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And he goes into a lot of this

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history and what justice cor she explains is

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you've got,

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you know, at the time of the founding,

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they the

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British were very suspicious

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of the American colonists

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as jurors, and they basically didn't think those...

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Ragged colonists, were gonna

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apply the law if they were put on

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a jury.

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So instead of having jury trials, they started

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moving cases out of the local colonial courts

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into what they call the vice admiral t

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courts.

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And these are basically

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you know, vice because they were underneath the

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high admiral court back in England.

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And the judges on these admiral courts were,

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put in place by the English,

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00:09:53,687 --> 00:09:56,144
They often had dual roles. So sometimes they

279
00:09:56,144 --> 00:09:57,967
were both prosecutor and judge.

280
00:09:59,093 --> 00:10:01,240
And they... There was no right to trial

281
00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:01,638
by jury.

282
00:10:02,512 --> 00:10:04,126
And, you know, that was

283
00:10:04,659 --> 00:10:06,352
kind of accepted for admiral.

284
00:10:07,457 --> 00:10:10,078
But the British started actually moving all kinds

285
00:10:10,078 --> 00:10:12,222
of cases over into the vice Admiral royalty

286
00:10:12,301 --> 00:10:12,539
Court,

287
00:10:13,333 --> 00:10:15,732
and the colonists didn't like it, they didn't

288
00:10:15,732 --> 00:10:17,483
like that they were losing their trial, the

289
00:10:17,483 --> 00:10:18,597
right to trial by jury.

290
00:10:19,234 --> 00:10:20,905
And so that was actually 1 of the

291
00:10:20,905 --> 00:10:22,338
things that they complained about.

292
00:10:23,149 --> 00:10:24,742
In the declaration of independence.

293
00:10:25,459 --> 00:10:25,959
So

294
00:10:27,053 --> 00:10:28,487
justice course just lays all that out, and

295
00:10:28,487 --> 00:10:29,943
you know, it was sort of an interesting

296
00:10:30,574 --> 00:10:32,966
concur he says it's not just the seventh

297
00:10:32,966 --> 00:10:35,758
amendment that was enacted in reaction to that.

298
00:10:35,918 --> 00:10:37,215
He says it was also

299
00:10:38,390 --> 00:10:39,666
you know, there's article 3,

300
00:10:40,399 --> 00:10:42,711
which says that the judicial power of the

301
00:10:42,871 --> 00:10:45,741
United States extends to cases both, you know,

302
00:10:45,900 --> 00:10:47,894
in law but also in equity and an

303
00:10:47,894 --> 00:10:48,394
admiral,

304
00:10:49,343 --> 00:10:51,093
and says that for all of those cases,

305
00:10:51,252 --> 00:10:53,263
you gotta have judges who have life tenure

306
00:10:53,957 --> 00:10:55,650
and who are protected from

307
00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:58,940
removal and enjoy all of these protections, which,

308
00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:01,480
you know, the vice admiral courts, those didn't

309
00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:04,440
have that. Although A aig is are protected

310
00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:07,034
by... From removal. They're very protected

311
00:11:07,414 --> 00:11:08,214
from removal.

312
00:11:08,855 --> 00:11:10,455
But not as much as a federal judge.

313
00:11:10,695 --> 00:11:12,774
So they have some protection from removal.

314
00:11:13,349 --> 00:11:15,416
But they can be removed, you know, a

315
00:11:15,416 --> 00:11:17,643
federal judge right, a real article 3 judge

316
00:11:17,643 --> 00:11:19,233
has to be impeached if you wanna get

317
00:11:19,233 --> 00:11:19,551
rid of them.

318
00:11:20,426 --> 00:11:22,335
But an A, you just have to go

319
00:11:22,335 --> 00:11:22,891
to this like,

320
00:11:23,701 --> 00:11:24,599
administrative board

321
00:11:25,292 --> 00:11:27,042
and convince them to let you fire them,

322
00:11:27,122 --> 00:11:28,951
which, yeah, It's not it's not easy, but

323
00:11:28,951 --> 00:11:31,278
you can do it. It's the bigger difference

324
00:11:31,278 --> 00:11:33,196
is, A j's have no salary protection.

325
00:11:34,155 --> 00:11:36,632
So A j's actually can have their salary.

326
00:11:37,032 --> 00:11:38,890
And they may have some, you know, statutory

327
00:11:39,030 --> 00:11:41,123
protection. But it actually has happened, like, for

328
00:11:41,123 --> 00:11:42,821
instance, during government shutdown downs

329
00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:45,998
that, like, A don't get paid. They don't

330
00:11:45,998 --> 00:11:47,537
have the same level of

331
00:11:47,916 --> 00:11:48,315
independence.

332
00:11:49,035 --> 00:11:51,044
And that federal judges do. And also, all

333
00:11:51,044 --> 00:11:52,400
of that is just by statute.

334
00:11:53,117 --> 00:11:54,176
It's not by

335
00:11:55,032 --> 00:11:56,148
constitution, so it could be changed.

336
00:11:57,185 --> 00:11:58,302
And, of course, you know,

337
00:12:00,626 --> 00:12:03,330
There's also a huge constitutional question of whether

338
00:12:03,330 --> 00:12:04,785
that removal is itself

339
00:12:05,319 --> 00:12:05,557
unconstitutional.

340
00:12:06,289 --> 00:12:08,307
Those removal protections are themselves

341
00:12:08,686 --> 00:12:11,003
unconstitutional as the circuit could help, but the

342
00:12:11,003 --> 00:12:13,080
the Supreme Court did not did not reach.

343
00:12:13,574 --> 00:12:15,247
That's correct. So the Supreme court base said,

344
00:12:15,326 --> 00:12:17,239
well, we reached the article 3. We don't

345
00:12:17,239 --> 00:12:19,549
have to reach the removal question, which does

346
00:12:19,549 --> 00:12:21,952
actually raise an interesting. Question is the removal

347
00:12:21,952 --> 00:12:23,861
holding still good law in that fifth circuit?

348
00:12:24,736 --> 00:12:27,202
Presumably. And I I don't see why not.

349
00:12:27,361 --> 00:12:28,951
Right? I mean the judgments affirmed.

350
00:12:29,524 --> 00:12:30,876
Think that's right. Yeah. So it should be.

351
00:12:31,115 --> 00:12:33,105
What about the non delegation part?

352
00:12:34,776 --> 00:12:36,448
I think that's probably still good law too.

353
00:12:36,686 --> 00:12:38,454
Right? I the court didn't reach any of

354
00:12:38,454 --> 00:12:40,685
it. So they they only... The court basis

355
00:12:40,685 --> 00:12:42,518
says we affirm on article 3 ground, we

356
00:12:42,518 --> 00:12:43,713
don't touch the other stuff.

357
00:12:44,843 --> 00:12:46,590
I think that leaves the other stuff in

358
00:12:46,590 --> 00:12:48,574
the fifth circuit, not nationwide, but I think

359
00:12:48,574 --> 00:12:50,083
in the fifth circuit, it's all still good

360
00:12:50,083 --> 00:12:51,829
law. You know the way you're phrasing it

361
00:12:51,829 --> 00:12:53,576
is kind of interesting, like, is it article?

362
00:12:53,990 --> 00:12:56,570
3 or is it the seventh amendment because

363
00:12:57,509 --> 00:12:59,750
if it's just the right to trial by

364
00:12:59,750 --> 00:13:01,769
jury? I mean, can the Sec

365
00:13:02,484 --> 00:13:04,552
at at the Supreme Court level and in

366
00:13:04,552 --> 00:13:05,904
or in other circuits outside the fifth circuit.

367
00:13:06,143 --> 00:13:08,290
Right? Could like... Because these are the important

368
00:13:08,290 --> 00:13:10,835
questions, the real world consequences and not like,

369
00:13:11,407 --> 00:13:12,839
agency win rates are gonna drop by half?

370
00:13:13,793 --> 00:13:15,464
Like, could they set up a jury system

371
00:13:15,464 --> 00:13:17,236
inside the Sec in front of an A.

372
00:13:18,342 --> 00:13:19,454
I don't think they could. So there's sort

373
00:13:19,454 --> 00:13:21,518
of... The opinion actually does talk about this

374
00:13:21,518 --> 00:13:23,345
in terms of the seventh amendment and that's

375
00:13:23,345 --> 00:13:25,806
because George Dark and his lawyers raised a

376
00:13:25,806 --> 00:13:28,125
seventh amendment claim. So that's kinda how it

377
00:13:28,125 --> 00:13:30,352
comes to the Supreme Court, and they talk

378
00:13:30,352 --> 00:13:31,546
about it in terms of the jury.

379
00:13:32,421 --> 00:13:32,921
But

380
00:13:33,375 --> 00:13:34,273
the analysis

381
00:13:34,585 --> 00:13:36,904
under article 3 and the seventh amendment has

382
00:13:36,904 --> 00:13:37,725
always been

383
00:13:38,264 --> 00:13:40,105
essentially, they dovetail together.

384
00:13:40,904 --> 00:13:42,264
So if you have...

385
00:13:43,399 --> 00:13:45,792
A case that is, you know, has to

386
00:13:45,792 --> 00:13:47,227
be within the article 3 courts,

387
00:13:48,264 --> 00:13:48,764
then,

388
00:13:49,142 --> 00:13:50,657
you know, you get a right to trial

389
00:13:50,657 --> 00:13:52,173
by jury. If it doesn't have to be

390
00:13:52,173 --> 00:13:54,022
outside the article... It know, if it if

391
00:13:54,022 --> 00:13:55,858
it can be outside the article 3 courts

392
00:13:55,858 --> 00:13:57,215
then the courts have always said, well, then

393
00:13:57,215 --> 00:13:58,332
you don't have to provide a jury.

394
00:13:59,130 --> 00:14:00,827
So these 2... The 2 analyses,

395
00:14:01,205 --> 00:14:03,772
you know are done in parallel. And this

396
00:14:03,772 --> 00:14:05,447
the same question of is it does involve

397
00:14:05,447 --> 00:14:07,282
public rights or does it involve private rights.

398
00:14:07,441 --> 00:14:08,659
So cases that

399
00:14:09,355 --> 00:14:10,573
involve private rights

400
00:14:12,003 --> 00:14:13,917
have to be lit in the article 3

401
00:14:13,917 --> 00:14:15,990
courts. And then if they are legal in

402
00:14:15,990 --> 00:14:18,064
nature, you have to provide a jury. If

403
00:14:18,064 --> 00:14:19,659
they involve public rights, then you can take

404
00:14:19,659 --> 00:14:21,589
them outside of the article 3 courts you

405
00:14:21,589 --> 00:14:23,665
can do them in an agency. And that's

406
00:14:23,665 --> 00:14:25,921
the same analysis for both the seventh amendment

407
00:14:26,060 --> 00:14:26,560
and

408
00:14:27,497 --> 00:14:27,896
for,

409
00:14:28,694 --> 00:14:30,690
the article 3. So I don't, you know,

410
00:14:30,850 --> 00:14:32,540
then I don't know that that actually works.

411
00:14:33,018 --> 00:14:34,555
No I I mean, probably

412
00:14:35,251 --> 00:14:37,745
probably it doesn't. But the the public rights

413
00:14:37,804 --> 00:14:40,457
distinction is important right? Because most A

414
00:14:41,089 --> 00:14:44,126
are, like the social security administration, dealing with

415
00:14:44,126 --> 00:14:45,324
various benefits. So,

416
00:14:46,124 --> 00:14:48,041
many, many things are still gonna stay in

417
00:14:48,041 --> 00:14:49,340
the administrative process

418
00:14:49,814 --> 00:14:50,771
after this decision,

419
00:14:52,127 --> 00:14:54,142
but some kind of

420
00:14:54,839 --> 00:14:56,673
fines... At at the very least fines were

421
00:14:56,673 --> 00:14:59,066
sort of things that rhyme with commonwealth actions,

422
00:14:59,305 --> 00:15:01,240
maybe some broader, maybe even all fines,

423
00:15:02,279 --> 00:15:02,600
but

424
00:15:03,639 --> 00:15:05,720
some things are certainly going going back into

425
00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,528
a to real court. Something which, you know,

426
00:15:09,084 --> 00:15:10,516
love for the A j's out there. I

427
00:15:10,516 --> 00:15:12,026
don't know. It's kind of dis discouraging.

428
00:15:12,821 --> 00:15:13,321
But

429
00:15:13,776 --> 00:15:15,445
that there's definitely a difference,

430
00:15:16,578 --> 00:15:18,417
I I have been in I have been

431
00:15:18,417 --> 00:15:18,656
in

432
00:15:19,695 --> 00:15:20,175
administrative

433
00:15:20,814 --> 00:15:22,753
court before. There were some

434
00:15:23,132 --> 00:15:26,178
interesting aspects to that. Like, the government could

435
00:15:26,178 --> 00:15:28,958
get discovery, but the respond couldn't. That was

436
00:15:28,958 --> 00:15:29,196
weird.

437
00:15:29,831 --> 00:15:31,738
Yeah. I mean, there's something very troubling where

438
00:15:31,738 --> 00:15:33,897
the judge is literally employed in the... Very

439
00:15:33,897 --> 00:15:36,443
same building in the same offices as the

440
00:15:36,443 --> 00:15:39,409
prosecutors. And sometimes, you know, these administrative judges,

441
00:15:39,943 --> 00:15:41,808
you know, not the case of these A

442
00:15:42,023 --> 00:15:44,007
necessarily, but a lot of administrative judges, they

443
00:15:44,007 --> 00:15:44,800
do double duty.

444
00:15:45,356 --> 00:15:47,260
So, like, in the Epa, for instance, they

445
00:15:47,260 --> 00:15:48,530
have a whole class of judges,

446
00:15:49,165 --> 00:15:50,557
the who both

447
00:15:51,492 --> 00:15:51,992
prosecute

448
00:15:52,370 --> 00:15:55,081
and bring enforcement actions and also judge cases.

449
00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:56,995
And they don't... You know, they're not doing

450
00:15:56,995 --> 00:15:58,725
it in the same case, but it's like

451
00:15:59,162 --> 00:16:00,139
I might prosecute

452
00:16:01,308 --> 00:16:02,977
cases, and then you're the judge in my

453
00:16:02,977 --> 00:16:05,044
cases and you prosecute cases, and I'm the

454
00:16:05,044 --> 00:16:07,364
judge in your cases. Wait. That really happens.

455
00:16:07,522 --> 00:16:09,587
Oh, yeah. That's nuts. That's like that's bananas.

456
00:16:09,825 --> 00:16:12,206
That's obviously crazy. Yeah. There's all kinds of

457
00:16:12,206 --> 00:16:13,794
crazy stuff that goes on. So, you know,

458
00:16:13,953 --> 00:16:16,109
this is... A really important decision in terms

459
00:16:16,109 --> 00:16:18,803
of establishing the independence of the judiciary.

460
00:16:19,754 --> 00:16:21,736
You know, and we joke about the Skype,

461
00:16:21,909 --> 00:16:23,742
calling. But it's true. In our Ami, we

462
00:16:23,742 --> 00:16:25,494
actually went through in our Ami brief, we

463
00:16:25,494 --> 00:16:27,088
went through and we, you know,

464
00:16:28,124 --> 00:16:30,195
counted up all the different federal agencies that

465
00:16:30,195 --> 00:16:30,934
have A

466
00:16:31,470 --> 00:16:33,553
falling And it basically turns out that there

467
00:16:33,553 --> 00:16:35,939
are... While there are thousands of A in

468
00:16:35,939 --> 00:16:36,814
the federal government.

469
00:16:38,087 --> 00:16:38,246
Like,

470
00:16:38,898 --> 00:16:41,050
90 percent of them are employed by the

471
00:16:41,129 --> 00:16:42,643
Social Security administration,

472
00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:45,852
processing social Security claims, which

473
00:16:46,244 --> 00:16:48,789
you know, that's like a quintessential public. Right?

474
00:16:49,425 --> 00:16:50,538
That's the sort of thing that can be

475
00:16:50,538 --> 00:16:53,003
done in the agency, and that's not gonna

476
00:16:53,003 --> 00:16:54,299
change. Right? So,

477
00:16:54,609 --> 00:16:56,287
if you're an A j who's listening to

478
00:16:56,287 --> 00:16:56,447
this,

479
00:16:57,167 --> 00:16:58,365
you know, which maybe there are a couple,

480
00:16:58,525 --> 00:17:00,763
I I kinda doubt it. You know, maybe

481
00:17:00,763 --> 00:17:02,760
who knows I don't know. Dozens of us.

482
00:17:03,654 --> 00:17:05,571
If you're a federal, you know, A who's

483
00:17:05,571 --> 00:17:07,169
listening to. I think you can rest assured

484
00:17:07,169 --> 00:17:09,486
like, your job is probably safe. You're not

485
00:17:09,486 --> 00:17:12,373
going anywhere. There's lots of social security claims

486
00:17:12,373 --> 00:17:15,004
to process and things like that. But so

487
00:17:15,004 --> 00:17:16,757
the sky is not falling, but for people

488
00:17:16,757 --> 00:17:18,352
who are being targeted for fines,

489
00:17:19,244 --> 00:17:20,525
this is a really good decision.

490
00:17:21,164 --> 00:17:22,765
I should note if there's also a descent

491
00:17:22,765 --> 00:17:23,904
from Justice So.

492
00:17:24,765 --> 00:17:27,244
And, you know, on the topic of things

493
00:17:27,244 --> 00:17:27,965
that are British.

494
00:17:28,778 --> 00:17:31,087
It's a very british descent because what justice

495
00:17:31,167 --> 00:17:33,737
So so basically says is that

496
00:17:34,113 --> 00:17:34,852
the government

497
00:17:35,626 --> 00:17:36,343
is sovereign.

498
00:17:37,314 --> 00:17:37,814
And

499
00:17:38,193 --> 00:17:39,711
she uses that word, You know, the government

500
00:17:39,711 --> 00:17:41,470
is sovereign. And if the government and its

501
00:17:41,470 --> 00:17:44,346
sovereign power decides that it wants to prosecute

502
00:17:44,346 --> 00:17:45,465
a case in an agency,

503
00:17:46,198 --> 00:17:47,890
then there's nothing that the courts

504
00:17:49,059 --> 00:17:51,387
you know, should have to say about it

505
00:17:51,602 --> 00:17:53,668
and that those are, you know, anything involving

506
00:17:53,668 --> 00:17:56,150
the government is involved. The public rights of

507
00:17:56,150 --> 00:17:56,809
the sovereign

508
00:17:57,425 --> 00:17:59,996
as sovereign and that that can be heard

509
00:18:00,452 --> 00:18:02,922
in agency courts. And my first reaction to

510
00:18:02,922 --> 00:18:04,835
that, and this goes to Anthony's article, which

511
00:18:04,835 --> 00:18:06,684
the you know, we... We're don't have to

512
00:18:06,684 --> 00:18:07,881
get into all the substance of, but it's

513
00:18:07,881 --> 00:18:09,954
a very good article. And 1 thing that

514
00:18:10,034 --> 00:18:11,709
Anthony points out is the biggest difference between

515
00:18:11,709 --> 00:18:14,421
the British system and the American system is

516
00:18:14,421 --> 00:18:14,875
that

517
00:18:15,470 --> 00:18:17,295
you know, in the American system, the government's

518
00:18:17,295 --> 00:18:19,621
not sovereign, the people are sovereign. So,

519
00:18:20,232 --> 00:18:22,161
you know, I read that from justice so.

520
00:18:22,455 --> 00:18:24,378
This is very british. And it's and it's

521
00:18:24,378 --> 00:18:26,691
wrong. And the people is not the same

522
00:18:26,691 --> 00:18:29,403
thing as congress or the legislature. I mean,

523
00:18:29,562 --> 00:18:31,237
I think that's the thing that people really

524
00:18:31,237 --> 00:18:33,765
get confused is they're elected by the people

525
00:18:34,284 --> 00:18:35,743
but in the Old British system

526
00:18:36,921 --> 00:18:40,118
parliament to some extent was elected. Now it's

527
00:18:40,118 --> 00:18:41,157
much more elected.

528
00:18:41,876 --> 00:18:42,776
But parliament

529
00:18:43,155 --> 00:18:45,184
itself in along with the crown

530
00:18:45,559 --> 00:18:48,445
was the sovereign. So if Congress does something,

531
00:18:49,297 --> 00:18:50,354
it's not like

532
00:18:50,903 --> 00:18:53,683
the sovereign is commanding, you know, x. I

533
00:18:53,683 --> 00:18:55,590
mean, we say that a lot she's saying

534
00:18:55,590 --> 00:18:57,576
that, but that's not really how this system

535
00:18:57,576 --> 00:18:58,688
is supposed to be thought of.

536
00:18:59,976 --> 00:19:01,568
I thought it was very interesting that Her

537
00:19:01,568 --> 00:19:03,718
descent ends with, like, there are good policy

538
00:19:03,718 --> 00:19:07,061
reasons, like, greater efficiency and uniformity.

539
00:19:07,634 --> 00:19:09,789
If if we just let the Sec keep

540
00:19:09,789 --> 00:19:12,423
its, like, 99 percent win rate and, I

541
00:19:12,423 --> 00:19:12,981
mean, yes.

542
00:19:13,859 --> 00:19:14,359
But

543
00:19:14,737 --> 00:19:16,426
a lot of the things in the institution

544
00:19:16,426 --> 00:19:18,334
are sort of anti efficiency for the for

545
00:19:18,334 --> 00:19:19,232
the sake of

546
00:19:19,686 --> 00:19:22,946
other higher values. So I... That that particular

547
00:19:22,946 --> 00:19:25,094
line didn't really didn't really resonate with me.

548
00:19:26,143 --> 00:19:27,818
I think the the rule that the descent

549
00:19:27,818 --> 00:19:29,733
is advocating for is also just kind of

550
00:19:29,733 --> 00:19:32,046
a frightening rule. Right? So the government, the

551
00:19:32,046 --> 00:19:34,758
the theory that the descent is adopting us

552
00:19:34,758 --> 00:19:35,258
basically

553
00:19:36,128 --> 00:19:38,041
And this is the government's argument in the

554
00:19:38,041 --> 00:19:38,599
case too,

555
00:19:39,317 --> 00:19:39,817
that

556
00:19:40,193 --> 00:19:42,664
anytime the government brings an enforcement action against

557
00:19:42,664 --> 00:19:43,802
an individual

558
00:19:44,354 --> 00:19:46,348
that involves public rights, and so it can

559
00:19:46,348 --> 00:19:48,900
be hurt an agency. So, you know, if

560
00:19:48,900 --> 00:19:50,038
you sue me

561
00:19:50,814 --> 00:19:53,127
for, you know, a hundred thousand dollars and

562
00:19:53,127 --> 00:19:53,606
damages,

563
00:19:54,179 --> 00:19:55,298
I don't know what I did you, but

564
00:19:55,458 --> 00:19:57,135
I did something and and you're suing me

565
00:19:57,135 --> 00:19:58,973
for a hundred thousand dollars in damages. That

566
00:19:58,973 --> 00:20:00,570
involves our our private rights.

567
00:20:01,543 --> 00:20:03,449
And so that case goes to Real court.

568
00:20:03,687 --> 00:20:05,537
But if the government sue me

569
00:20:05,910 --> 00:20:07,816
for a hundred thousand dollars and says I

570
00:20:07,816 --> 00:20:09,325
did something wrong, and they're gonna take a

571
00:20:09,325 --> 00:20:10,278
hundred thousand dollars.

572
00:20:11,008 --> 00:20:13,399
Then that doesn't get a real judge instead.

573
00:20:14,275 --> 00:20:16,108
You can have a judge who's employed by

574
00:20:16,108 --> 00:20:17,325
the very same

575
00:20:17,702 --> 00:20:17,861
agency,

576
00:20:18,514 --> 00:20:19,412
that is prose

577
00:20:20,107 --> 00:20:21,941
you and trying to take your hundred thousand

578
00:20:21,941 --> 00:20:23,853
dollars. So, I mean, that's, like,

579
00:20:24,730 --> 00:20:25,549
pretty wild

580
00:20:26,419 --> 00:20:29,073
basically We assume the powers of the executive

581
00:20:29,132 --> 00:20:32,164
will always be exercised responsibly by our own

582
00:20:32,164 --> 00:20:34,333
political allies and people that we like Now

583
00:20:34,333 --> 00:20:36,082
we just don't for it'll be fine. Right?

584
00:20:36,241 --> 00:20:37,355
Like, we shouldn't have to worry about. We

585
00:20:37,355 --> 00:20:39,900
just don't criminal prosecute the executive for for

586
00:20:39,900 --> 00:20:41,967
doing those things. But other otherwise it's okay.

587
00:20:42,539 --> 00:20:44,217
Yeah. That's another case that we're not gonna

588
00:20:44,217 --> 00:20:46,715
talk about today. I I wanted to

589
00:20:47,653 --> 00:20:49,331
do a little bit for a little bit

590
00:20:49,331 --> 00:20:50,863
of fun. Do a little bit of... Back,

591
00:20:51,023 --> 00:20:53,256
Rob, what you're you're you're just talking about.

592
00:20:53,415 --> 00:20:54,474
But more to

593
00:20:54,851 --> 00:20:55,351
maybe

594
00:20:56,845 --> 00:20:59,100
educate some of our non lawyer listeners

595
00:20:59,477 --> 00:20:59,977
on

596
00:21:01,167 --> 00:21:03,560
the interplay of the different rights the trial

597
00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:05,953
by jury in the constitution because I think

598
00:21:05,953 --> 00:21:08,027
some people when maybe when they come to

599
00:21:08,027 --> 00:21:09,962
this case, get a little confused

600
00:21:10,832 --> 00:21:12,504
because there's actually different...

601
00:21:13,061 --> 00:21:15,607
I think our intuitions are actually not quite

602
00:21:15,607 --> 00:21:17,858
what the constitution says even though

603
00:21:18,329 --> 00:21:20,240
the constitution leads us to where the I

604
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:22,971
think where the court came out here. So

605
00:21:23,187 --> 00:21:25,179
when people think about tri jury and the

606
00:21:25,179 --> 00:21:26,533
government, like, finding you,

607
00:21:27,503 --> 00:21:29,329
what most people are thinking about is a

608
00:21:29,329 --> 00:21:29,829
criminal

609
00:21:30,282 --> 00:21:32,029
prosecution. But actually,

610
00:21:32,585 --> 00:21:34,808
the sixth... So that's the sixth amendment,

611
00:21:35,619 --> 00:21:36,919
and the sixth amendment

612
00:21:37,380 --> 00:21:37,880
guarantees

613
00:21:38,259 --> 00:21:40,279
your right to trial by jury

614
00:21:40,659 --> 00:21:42,019
in a criminal case,

615
00:21:42,914 --> 00:21:44,828
but this isn't a criminal case.

616
00:21:46,184 --> 00:21:49,055
And it has been interpreted to not give

617
00:21:49,055 --> 00:21:51,688
you a trial by jury if it's just

618
00:21:51,688 --> 00:21:52,166
fines.

619
00:21:52,899 --> 00:21:54,253
Mean, they kinda... I I can't remember the

620
00:21:54,253 --> 00:21:55,528
case, but there's right, this case,

621
00:21:56,644 --> 00:21:58,556
from the seventies, I think that says,

622
00:21:59,273 --> 00:21:59,831
if there's

623
00:22:01,279 --> 00:22:03,053
if you're prosecuted and the

624
00:22:03,508 --> 00:22:04,008
potential

625
00:22:04,384 --> 00:22:06,453
a sentence is going to be 6 months

626
00:22:06,453 --> 00:22:06,953
in

627
00:22:07,488 --> 00:22:09,637
incarceration or more than you get a jury

628
00:22:09,637 --> 00:22:12,199
trial. But less than that you don't. I

629
00:22:12,278 --> 00:22:13,733
I think it has to do with

630
00:22:14,188 --> 00:22:15,859
incorporation doctrine too is why they...

631
00:22:16,973 --> 00:22:18,486
I'm going back to my Cr pro days

632
00:22:18,486 --> 00:22:20,171
in in Law Gop ford. To saying that.

633
00:22:20,330 --> 00:22:22,477
But anyway, so it says in in 6

634
00:22:22,477 --> 00:22:23,692
amendment, in all criminal

635
00:22:24,067 --> 00:22:26,531
prosecution the cues shall joy the right to

636
00:22:26,531 --> 00:22:28,694
a speedy and public a trial by an

637
00:22:28,694 --> 00:22:30,922
impartial jury of the state and district we're

638
00:22:30,922 --> 00:22:32,673
in the crimes he'll being committed. Okay? So

639
00:22:32,673 --> 00:22:35,061
that's that's what the sixth amendment says, and

640
00:22:35,061 --> 00:22:36,812
that's actually been incorporated against the states.

641
00:22:37,464 --> 00:22:38,362
So... But that's

642
00:22:38,817 --> 00:22:41,365
that's criminal prosecution. So if the government comes

643
00:22:41,365 --> 00:22:42,718
after you civil,

644
00:22:43,116 --> 00:22:45,106
which is what this Sec thing has.

645
00:22:45,679 --> 00:22:48,323
Then we get to the seventh amendment

646
00:22:48,697 --> 00:22:51,953
in suits at common law, where the value

647
00:22:51,953 --> 00:22:54,597
and controversy show, say, 20 dollars,

648
00:22:55,384 --> 00:22:56,841
the right of jury

649
00:22:57,219 --> 00:22:58,973
trial by jury shall be preserved.

650
00:22:59,531 --> 00:23:01,685
So that's another question of whether it's at

651
00:23:01,845 --> 00:23:03,519
Ka, which you were talking about earlier, and

652
00:23:03,519 --> 00:23:05,529
then there's the public rights exception. And then

653
00:23:05,529 --> 00:23:06,646
we have article 3,

654
00:23:07,205 --> 00:23:10,238
which says that, you know, judges shall have

655
00:23:10,238 --> 00:23:12,712
good behavior and all that. Although, if truth

656
00:23:12,712 --> 00:23:13,271
be told...

657
00:23:14,003 --> 00:23:16,648
Right? Congress never actually had to create

658
00:23:17,102 --> 00:23:17,499
trials,

659
00:23:18,134 --> 00:23:20,359
courts under article 3. It just could.

660
00:23:21,169 --> 00:23:22,606
So, you know, it could've have been in

661
00:23:22,606 --> 00:23:25,161
a, like, parallel universe, we could have had

662
00:23:25,161 --> 00:23:27,396
lived in a a world where the Sec

663
00:23:27,396 --> 00:23:29,551
was doing this stuff in state court, not

664
00:23:29,551 --> 00:23:32,276
even in. You know, jury trial or at

665
00:23:32,276 --> 00:23:34,746
not even in... Before its own ale days.

666
00:23:35,224 --> 00:23:37,056
And then, you know, God knows what would

667
00:23:37,056 --> 00:23:40,889
have, govern there about jury trials. So throwing

668
00:23:40,889 --> 00:23:42,002
all that stuff together,

669
00:23:42,797 --> 00:23:45,183
you get you get a sense. Like, you

670
00:23:45,183 --> 00:23:47,902
just kinda get a libertarian sense if the

671
00:23:47,902 --> 00:23:49,496
government's trend coming after you for, like,

672
00:23:50,372 --> 00:23:53,001
way more than 20 dollars in fines,

673
00:23:53,558 --> 00:23:55,072
you should get a jury trial,

674
00:23:55,948 --> 00:23:58,431
but that it it'd be... To get it

675
00:23:58,431 --> 00:23:59,943
there, you kinda have to go through this,

676
00:24:00,341 --> 00:24:02,887
It's a pseudo at common law. Otherwise, you

677
00:24:02,887 --> 00:24:04,262
don't have something directly

678
00:24:04,717 --> 00:24:05,433
on point.

679
00:24:06,324 --> 00:24:08,477
And am I right about all that or

680
00:24:08,477 --> 00:24:10,014
is some of some of that

681
00:24:10,471 --> 00:24:12,545
may be wrong. Well, I don't think you're

682
00:24:12,545 --> 00:24:14,220
wrong, but I think there's a... There's... So

683
00:24:14,220 --> 00:24:15,815
2 thoughts. 1 is that there is actually...

684
00:24:16,306 --> 00:24:18,767
Another provision that you didn't mention that justice

685
00:24:18,767 --> 00:24:21,544
gorsuch points out is critical here. Right? And

686
00:24:21,544 --> 00:24:24,341
that's the due process christ. Really And, you

687
00:24:24,341 --> 00:24:26,573
know, the government can't take your life, liberty

688
00:24:26,573 --> 00:24:28,646
or property without a due process of law.

689
00:24:29,443 --> 00:24:31,356
And what justice Gorsuch says is like,

690
00:24:32,087 --> 00:24:34,178
that was understood to mean

691
00:24:34,632 --> 00:24:37,574
for, like, imposing fines. That was understood to

692
00:24:37,574 --> 00:24:39,243
mean, like, a real court.

693
00:24:40,134 --> 00:24:41,173
Right? You,

694
00:24:43,091 --> 00:24:45,828
not this, like Pseudo court in an administrative

695
00:24:45,968 --> 00:24:48,545
agency. So I think do process here is

696
00:24:48,939 --> 00:24:50,526
the due process clause is kind of the

697
00:24:50,526 --> 00:24:52,193
other missing piece to all of this. It's...

698
00:24:52,987 --> 00:24:54,599
You know, to the extent that these

699
00:24:55,051 --> 00:24:56,322
other provisions don't...

700
00:24:57,134 --> 00:24:59,851
Specifically address something. I think due process is

701
00:24:59,851 --> 00:25:00,351
still

702
00:25:00,969 --> 00:25:04,165
the overriding idea that they had was this

703
00:25:04,165 --> 00:25:04,905
stuff's gonna

704
00:25:05,299 --> 00:25:07,452
go... The traditional way we did it was

705
00:25:07,452 --> 00:25:09,127
we go to court and like, we're gonna

706
00:25:09,127 --> 00:25:10,483
still do that, and we're not gonna have

707
00:25:10,483 --> 00:25:11,382
these new fang

708
00:25:11,919 --> 00:25:14,551
vice admiral teach courts or the Sec or

709
00:25:14,551 --> 00:25:16,633
any of this. And this is a part.

710
00:25:16,792 --> 00:25:19,516
This a part where I think history and

711
00:25:19,572 --> 00:25:21,898
tradition really do help

712
00:25:22,590 --> 00:25:24,416
understand what the purpose of it is is

713
00:25:24,416 --> 00:25:27,147
that... The whole background about vice admiral courts

714
00:25:27,147 --> 00:25:28,585
and the the seventh amendment,

715
00:25:29,145 --> 00:25:31,302
unlike maybe some other times where history and

716
00:25:31,302 --> 00:25:33,460
tradition got... They've gotten a little too crazy

717
00:25:33,460 --> 00:25:35,618
lately. Yeah. I think that's right. I think

718
00:25:35,618 --> 00:25:37,996
that, you know, sometimes history and tradition, and

719
00:25:37,996 --> 00:25:38,893
you can kind of

720
00:25:39,423 --> 00:25:40,691
the court ends up kind of...

721
00:25:42,056 --> 00:25:45,317
Looking for analog and trying to find, like...

722
00:25:45,556 --> 00:25:47,067
It's like, looking for faces in a crowd.

723
00:25:47,226 --> 00:25:48,993
It's like, we wanna uphold this, So let's

724
00:25:48,993 --> 00:25:50,668
find things where this was done or we

725
00:25:50,668 --> 00:25:53,380
wanna strike it down. So let's find places

726
00:25:53,380 --> 00:25:55,613
where it wasn't done, and, you know, it's

727
00:25:55,613 --> 00:25:57,686
it's sort of the, like, Justice Sc said

728
00:25:57,686 --> 00:25:58,186
about

729
00:26:00,174 --> 00:26:00,674
statutory

730
00:26:01,211 --> 00:26:03,205
interpretation and legislative history, Like, you're just looking

731
00:26:03,205 --> 00:26:05,757
for faces in the crowd that support what

732
00:26:05,757 --> 00:26:07,672
you wanna do. And and that whole analysis

733
00:26:07,672 --> 00:26:08,331
can feel

734
00:26:09,279 --> 00:26:11,188
problematic in a lot of ways. But this

735
00:26:11,188 --> 00:26:12,937
is, like a good use of history where

736
00:26:12,937 --> 00:26:15,346
we're looking at a constitutional... A set of

737
00:26:15,402 --> 00:26:16,380
constitutional provisions

738
00:26:16,849 --> 00:26:18,598
and we're thinking, what is what animate this?

739
00:26:18,757 --> 00:26:19,472
What is it about?

740
00:26:20,188 --> 00:26:22,413
And by knowing that, we can understand why

741
00:26:22,413 --> 00:26:24,265
these administrative agencies

742
00:26:24,813 --> 00:26:26,798
are just so problematic and not in line

743
00:26:26,798 --> 00:26:28,148
with what the constitution says.

744
00:26:29,736 --> 00:26:31,030
A huge huge

745
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:35,395
1 third of a of A123

746
00:26:35,395 --> 00:26:37,868
sort of combo against the administrative state at

747
00:26:37,868 --> 00:26:39,064
the at the end of the term,

748
00:26:40,021 --> 00:26:42,414
along with the over ruling of Chevron defer

749
00:26:42,414 --> 00:26:44,580
and then also the sort of there is

750
00:26:44,580 --> 00:26:46,908
no statute limitations anymore to challenge

751
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:49,744
agency regulations in corner post, and and those

752
00:26:49,744 --> 00:26:50,221
3 cases,

753
00:26:51,508 --> 00:26:52,008
all

754
00:26:52,864 --> 00:26:55,736
individually, but especially put together are our big,

755
00:26:55,816 --> 00:26:58,527
big deal. My my idiosyncratic view on this.

756
00:26:58,687 --> 00:27:00,521
And so, you know, how important a cases

757
00:27:00,521 --> 00:27:02,689
is is in some sense both un noble

758
00:27:02,689 --> 00:27:03,189
and

759
00:27:03,646 --> 00:27:05,878
maybe, like, not all... Almost not even worth

760
00:27:05,878 --> 00:27:07,973
discussing because it's so un noble, but my

761
00:27:08,190 --> 00:27:09,920
idiosyncratic view on this is that some

762
00:27:10,755 --> 00:27:11,948
Is the most important.

763
00:27:13,062 --> 00:27:15,528
Kart corner post is the second most important.

764
00:27:16,243 --> 00:27:16,743
And

765
00:27:17,213 --> 00:27:20,236
the lo bright is the third most important.

766
00:27:20,395 --> 00:27:21,350
Which is probably road.

767
00:27:21,987 --> 00:27:24,294
You know, I I recognize this is controversial.

768
00:27:24,851 --> 00:27:25,828
I reject

769
00:27:26,299 --> 00:27:29,812
your implicit rejection of this topic and continue

770
00:27:29,812 --> 00:27:32,446
on the topic. I think it's it's lo

771
00:27:32,446 --> 00:27:34,921
bright is the most important then Dark c

772
00:27:34,921 --> 00:27:35,815
then corner post. Yeah.

773
00:27:36,535 --> 00:27:38,134
See my view on this though is that

774
00:27:38,134 --> 00:27:40,615
who the judge is is typically more important

775
00:27:40,615 --> 00:27:42,295
than what standard they are applying.

776
00:27:43,669 --> 00:27:46,383
This is my, like, maybe slightly john view

777
00:27:46,383 --> 00:27:48,618
as a lit. But... Let's say that's a

778
00:27:48,618 --> 00:27:50,933
that's a very reasonable point. I'll, I'll, I'll

779
00:27:51,093 --> 00:27:52,051
I'll give you that for sure.

780
00:27:53,024 --> 00:27:55,022
Do you think... So this is comp... We

781
00:27:55,022 --> 00:27:56,700
didn't prep for this at all, but... So

782
00:27:56,700 --> 00:27:58,479
corner post for listeners benefit

783
00:27:59,337 --> 00:28:01,734
said that when a new rule comes up,

784
00:28:02,228 --> 00:28:03,185
administrative agency,

785
00:28:04,620 --> 00:28:04,860
you...

786
00:28:05,498 --> 00:28:07,651
There's... There was an argument that you could

787
00:28:07,651 --> 00:28:09,644
only challenge it on its face in the

788
00:28:09,644 --> 00:28:10,782
first 6 years

789
00:28:11,174 --> 00:28:13,082
And if it's, like, after that, you could

790
00:28:13,082 --> 00:28:16,184
only challenge it as applied, but the the

791
00:28:16,263 --> 00:28:18,967
Supreme court has said, the majority said, no,

792
00:28:19,126 --> 00:28:21,009
you could did that actually, you can apply

793
00:28:21,209 --> 00:28:23,357
it, you know, whenever later on as a

794
00:28:23,357 --> 00:28:23,914
facial matter.

795
00:28:25,427 --> 00:28:27,337
Is that as a practical matter, a big

796
00:28:27,337 --> 00:28:29,263
deal, Rob with a lot of... By ad

797
00:28:29,263 --> 00:28:31,019
ad. Like, there are a lot of facial

798
00:28:31,019 --> 00:28:33,253
challenges that they they just don't happen because

799
00:28:33,253 --> 00:28:35,190
they were they were more than 6 years

800
00:28:35,248 --> 00:28:36,126
that now can happen.

801
00:28:36,779 --> 00:28:38,687
Yeah. So it allows people to go back

802
00:28:38,687 --> 00:28:40,435
and challenge reg that maybe have been on

803
00:28:40,435 --> 00:28:42,502
the books for a long time, But, you

804
00:28:42,502 --> 00:28:44,013
know, either they were challenged.

805
00:28:44,664 --> 00:28:46,678
But they were challenged in a different era

806
00:28:46,736 --> 00:28:48,409
when, you know, the courts had a different

807
00:28:48,409 --> 00:28:50,162
view of things or no 1 challenged them

808
00:28:50,162 --> 00:28:51,835
maybe because it was a different era,

809
00:28:52,552 --> 00:28:54,146
and courts had a different view of things.

810
00:28:55,436 --> 00:28:57,270
It just opens the door to go back

811
00:28:57,270 --> 00:28:59,901
and start and and challenge regulations that have

812
00:28:59,901 --> 00:29:00,799
been on the books

813
00:29:01,416 --> 00:29:02,851
for potentially a long time.

814
00:29:03,984 --> 00:29:05,603
And to to get

815
00:29:06,221 --> 00:29:08,619
rulings on whether those regulations are legal, whether

816
00:29:08,619 --> 00:29:09,578
they're constitutional.

817
00:29:10,217 --> 00:29:12,375
So it's a big deal. It's potentially a

818
00:29:12,375 --> 00:29:14,305
big deal. You know, and I'm... I, you

819
00:29:14,305 --> 00:29:16,219
know, I kid. I I think, obviously, overrule

820
00:29:16,299 --> 00:29:17,894
Chevron is a big deal. Like, you can't

821
00:29:17,894 --> 00:29:18,931
deny that it's a big deal.

822
00:29:19,887 --> 00:29:21,323
I would just, you know, I don't know

823
00:29:21,323 --> 00:29:23,755
how many judges really have been following Chevron

824
00:29:24,295 --> 00:29:25,595
for the last

825
00:29:25,975 --> 00:29:27,894
20 years anyway. So... I mean, the Supreme

826
00:29:27,894 --> 00:29:29,095
court hasn't been. But no.

827
00:29:32,146 --> 00:29:32,305
Well,

828
00:29:33,257 --> 00:29:35,400
that is a little bit of a history

829
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:36,512
lesson on our,

830
00:29:37,385 --> 00:29:40,084
old relations with the United Kingdom.

831
00:29:40,734 --> 00:29:42,335
But we we still have relations,

832
00:29:43,214 --> 00:29:44,335
usually good relations

833
00:29:44,815 --> 00:29:48,194
today, including with some of our... It's ambassador

834
00:29:48,894 --> 00:29:49,214
staff.

835
00:29:50,186 --> 00:29:53,285
So, Andrew, what happened to a cert member

836
00:29:53,285 --> 00:29:55,510
of that staff in in Houston?

837
00:29:56,067 --> 00:29:57,974
Yeah. Well, a console general is not an

838
00:29:57,974 --> 00:30:00,318
ambassador there. Let's let's be close

839
00:30:00,693 --> 00:30:03,000
part of the staff. Right have of the

840
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:04,670
of, you know, of the What is a

841
00:30:04,670 --> 00:30:05,170
cogs

842
00:30:05,545 --> 00:30:07,160
let's. Hold Let me let me tell you

843
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:08,360
what happened first us. Let me tell you

844
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:10,779
about what is going on with the current

845
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,519
relationship of American citizens to to Uk ones.

846
00:30:15,094 --> 00:30:17,158
So so I'm gonna go to an unpublished,

847
00:30:17,794 --> 00:30:19,461
because it's really much more interesting on the

848
00:30:19,461 --> 00:30:19,699
facts.

849
00:30:20,414 --> 00:30:22,478
Decision out of the fifth circuit. This is

850
00:30:22,717 --> 00:30:24,146
United States of America versus it...

851
00:30:25,037 --> 00:30:28,542
Da or Ryan Benjamin woods. It's a a

852
00:30:28,542 --> 00:30:31,012
sad, but but lively tail, and I'm just

853
00:30:31,012 --> 00:30:31,512
gonna

854
00:30:31,904 --> 00:30:34,065
read the facts, which are basically in in

855
00:30:34,065 --> 00:30:34,865
1 paragraph.

856
00:30:35,825 --> 00:30:38,625
So woods and his c defendant, Kristen Brink,

857
00:30:39,197 --> 00:30:42,136
broke into the British console general's family home

858
00:30:42,136 --> 00:30:43,089
in Houston, Texas,

859
00:30:43,645 --> 00:30:45,949
security footage from the home showed woods, driving

860
00:30:45,949 --> 00:30:48,332
a u haul truck through the homes security

861
00:30:48,332 --> 00:30:50,898
gate, entering the property and carrying items back

862
00:30:50,898 --> 00:30:52,732
to the truck, woods some w stole 2

863
00:30:52,732 --> 00:30:55,604
vehicles, a safe, high end watches, jewelry, a

864
00:30:55,604 --> 00:30:58,576
television, the family's passports and personal documents

865
00:30:58,968 --> 00:31:01,359
and a large amount of alcohol, put a

866
00:31:01,359 --> 00:31:03,272
pin in that. They ran back the home

867
00:31:03,272 --> 00:31:06,083
and caused over 50000 dollars in damages

868
00:31:07,192 --> 00:31:08,707
what do you think that were?

869
00:31:09,983 --> 00:31:11,657
I don't know. Maybe they're, like, sort of,

870
00:31:11,816 --> 00:31:11,976
like,

871
00:31:12,933 --> 00:31:14,926
diplomatic, you know, special plates cars.

872
00:31:15,578 --> 00:31:17,890
But like they're they're already driving at U

873
00:31:17,890 --> 00:31:19,882
haul. Like, did they... So how did they...

874
00:31:20,122 --> 00:31:22,273
Like, like, in in shifts, like you go,

875
00:31:22,433 --> 00:31:24,759
you still want you wondering if they were

876
00:31:24,759 --> 00:31:27,071
no heads or something like that. Threw in

877
00:31:27,071 --> 00:31:27,868
the back of the truck.

878
00:31:28,506 --> 00:31:30,100
Oh, I don't I don't know.

879
00:31:31,057 --> 00:31:32,906
Vehicles just probably chosen for a reason though.

880
00:31:33,145 --> 00:31:34,842
I got that... This this was a per

881
00:31:35,538 --> 00:31:36,676
unpublished decision

882
00:31:37,053 --> 00:31:37,553
by

883
00:31:39,127 --> 00:31:40,882
judges Higgins and Willard and O, and it

884
00:31:40,882 --> 00:31:42,408
had a certain chris this to it that

885
00:31:42,567 --> 00:31:44,392
I'd I think is sounds to me like

886
00:31:44,471 --> 00:31:46,296
Andy Old. So I'd... I think that I

887
00:31:46,296 --> 00:31:47,645
think the word vehicles was chosen for a

888
00:31:47,645 --> 00:31:49,650
reason in a way that might include mop

889
00:31:49,650 --> 00:31:51,490
pads. I I don't think this was no

890
00:31:51,490 --> 00:31:53,829
vehicles in the park. Yeah. I I

891
00:31:54,769 --> 00:31:56,230
Well, I'm sure these were una

892
00:31:56,690 --> 00:31:58,289
vehicles. I don't I don't think this is,

893
00:31:58,369 --> 00:32:00,058
like, an H l heart thing.

894
00:32:01,013 --> 00:32:02,366
I don't think justice Will wrote it. It

895
00:32:02,366 --> 00:32:04,436
didn't it didn't have quite his his particular,

896
00:32:05,789 --> 00:32:06,289
Pan

897
00:32:07,634 --> 00:32:09,146
But the important thing about this case, Right,

898
00:32:09,305 --> 00:32:12,327
is that the Americans are once again rising

899
00:32:12,327 --> 00:32:13,441
up against the British.

900
00:32:14,649 --> 00:32:16,796
And and it basically gives a short circuit

901
00:32:16,796 --> 00:32:18,568
listeners and excuse to hear about

902
00:32:19,181 --> 00:32:21,487
what a console general is, which is...

903
00:32:22,455 --> 00:32:24,756
Part of the diplomatic staff of a country,

904
00:32:24,835 --> 00:32:28,010
but not the ambassador. So the ambassador is

905
00:32:28,010 --> 00:32:29,279
the highest ranking person,

906
00:32:30,805 --> 00:32:32,404
in a in a diplomatic

907
00:32:32,805 --> 00:32:34,565
staff or or mission. The ones who responsible

908
00:32:34,565 --> 00:32:35,945
for real issues of policy,

909
00:32:36,484 --> 00:32:37,605
treaties, things like that.

910
00:32:38,724 --> 00:32:39,625
A console

911
00:32:40,654 --> 00:32:43,510
is someone who is generally helping relations and

912
00:32:43,510 --> 00:32:46,207
the citizens of the home country in the

913
00:32:46,207 --> 00:32:48,681
foreign country. So there are in fact, many

914
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:50,929
British consulate all around

915
00:32:51,779 --> 00:32:52,812
the United States,

916
00:32:53,766 --> 00:32:55,910
some of them are consulate like in like

917
00:32:55,910 --> 00:32:56,546
in Denver,

918
00:32:57,358 --> 00:33:00,312
in bigger cities, though, you have consoles general

919
00:33:00,312 --> 00:33:02,547
as in as in Houston and and Chicago,

920
00:33:02,866 --> 00:33:03,345
Boston,

921
00:33:03,904 --> 00:33:06,153
Atlanta various other cities around the United states

922
00:33:06,153 --> 00:33:08,535
so a a console general out ranks the

923
00:33:08,535 --> 00:33:10,758
console obviously out ranks a vice console.

924
00:33:11,393 --> 00:33:13,061
But they are not as important as ambassadors

925
00:33:13,061 --> 00:33:15,459
and they're doing things like helping dates you

926
00:33:15,459 --> 00:33:18,651
know, the local Uk citizens get passports and

927
00:33:18,651 --> 00:33:20,726
deal with things on taxes. So this is

928
00:33:20,726 --> 00:33:22,561
more the sort of, like, when you think

929
00:33:22,561 --> 00:33:23,061
of,

930
00:33:23,453 --> 00:33:25,360
maybe you're traveling abroad. You use your passport.

931
00:33:25,519 --> 00:33:26,870
You sort of go to the embassy, but

932
00:33:26,870 --> 00:33:29,651
for help not to negotiate a treaty. That

933
00:33:29,651 --> 00:33:31,161
sort of for help thing is is the

934
00:33:31,161 --> 00:33:31,797
sort of thing that

935
00:33:32,449 --> 00:33:35,240
Consul general are responsible. So not to be

936
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,075
confused with Dame Karen Pierce,

937
00:33:38,032 --> 00:33:40,824
Lady Ro, the the current ambassador since 20

938
00:33:40,824 --> 00:33:42,994
20, She is in Dc. Being very important

939
00:33:42,994 --> 00:33:45,575
at the embassy. This is merely the

940
00:33:45,955 --> 00:33:47,255
the consul general

941
00:33:47,634 --> 00:33:50,035
hanging out in Houston. I think under him,

942
00:33:50,275 --> 00:33:52,148
though, there there are, like, the consoles,

943
00:33:52,679 --> 00:33:54,978
and they can be, like, very kinda part

944
00:33:54,978 --> 00:33:57,912
time even. Like, oh, yeah just be office,

945
00:33:58,150 --> 00:33:59,205
and it'll be an honorary

946
00:33:59,514 --> 00:34:01,023
like, in case there are any brits who

947
00:34:01,023 --> 00:34:02,692
happen to be in the area. Yeah. Well,

948
00:34:02,771 --> 00:34:03,986
there's there's an entire,

949
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:06,267
you know, diplomatic system that stems of course

950
00:34:06,267 --> 00:34:08,429
from. 18 15 Congress Vienna in the wake

951
00:34:08,429 --> 00:34:11,135
of the Napoleonic wars setting up ambassadors on

952
00:34:11,135 --> 00:34:12,670
top of the minister's point of

953
00:34:13,204 --> 00:34:15,591
going on down, your you know,

954
00:34:16,324 --> 00:34:17,361
aids and

955
00:34:18,399 --> 00:34:20,953
ministers, affairs, and and and all sorts of

956
00:34:21,672 --> 00:34:23,827
of different things. These were simplified later in

957
00:34:23,827 --> 00:34:25,596
the in the twentieth and But there are

958
00:34:25,596 --> 00:34:26,970
still many important forms

959
00:34:27,345 --> 00:34:28,934
about this, where the

960
00:34:29,809 --> 00:34:30,365
you know, the,

961
00:34:31,081 --> 00:34:33,068
a consult general would wing, rank on a

962
00:34:33,068 --> 00:34:35,313
matter of protocol, the 3. In the Us

963
00:34:35,313 --> 00:34:38,349
system, a console general is akin to but

964
00:34:38,349 --> 00:34:41,065
below a b general. So if you had

965
00:34:41,065 --> 00:34:44,422
a mixed you know, like military and diplomatic,

966
00:34:44,978 --> 00:34:46,726
fancy dinner where you had to decide the

967
00:34:46,726 --> 00:34:47,521
seating arrangements,

968
00:34:48,952 --> 00:34:50,564
more important than a colonel less,

969
00:34:51,349 --> 00:34:53,412
important any b or general or a or

970
00:34:53,412 --> 00:34:55,396
a real admiral. So, you know, a console

971
00:34:55,396 --> 00:34:57,538
general is is no joke, but it's also

972
00:34:57,538 --> 00:34:58,831
not the ambassador

973
00:35:00,018 --> 00:35:01,856
herself. Sounds like maybe you've been to 1

974
00:35:01,856 --> 00:35:03,934
of these dinners that you you know this

975
00:35:03,934 --> 00:35:05,932
stuff. I mean, this is not a podcast

976
00:35:05,932 --> 00:35:08,385
about my personal life. I'm not maybe, maybe

977
00:35:08,584 --> 00:35:09,939
not... We're not we're not gonna... We're not

978
00:35:09,939 --> 00:35:10,577
gonna go into that.

979
00:35:11,454 --> 00:35:13,287
Do we think these people had a, like

980
00:35:13,287 --> 00:35:15,838
a residence or was this just like their

981
00:35:15,838 --> 00:35:18,793
family house? I'm Well, I think I... It

982
00:35:18,793 --> 00:35:22,463
it the opinion describes it right as

983
00:35:22,994 --> 00:35:26,503
their family home. Family home. Yeah. But whether

984
00:35:26,503 --> 00:35:28,252
that's given to them by... It wouldn't surprise...

985
00:35:28,491 --> 00:35:30,637
Like, certain the ambassador, of course, has, like,

986
00:35:30,797 --> 00:35:31,535
an ambassador

987
00:35:31,910 --> 00:35:32,387
residence,

988
00:35:32,879 --> 00:35:35,186
And a console general, I I would guess

989
00:35:35,186 --> 00:35:37,015
given the nature of the job, it probably

990
00:35:37,015 --> 00:35:39,425
is a a piece of property owned by

991
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,440
owned by the sovereign, but I'm just. I'm

992
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:44,271
just kinda out on there now. If mister

993
00:35:44,431 --> 00:35:46,103
Woods knew what he was getting into. Yeah.

994
00:35:46,421 --> 00:35:48,332
I wonder that so. I mean, they have

995
00:35:48,332 --> 00:35:50,980
an they have an office. The console general

996
00:35:50,980 --> 00:35:53,559
office is separate Yeah the home. Like, that's,

997
00:35:53,780 --> 00:35:54,180
like, a,

998
00:35:55,460 --> 00:35:57,780
office address. But I want... Yeah. I I

999
00:35:57,780 --> 00:36:00,293
mean, they took the safe. And the passports

1000
00:36:00,431 --> 00:36:01,330
that makes me

1001
00:36:01,707 --> 00:36:03,861
think maybe they knew what they were targeting.

1002
00:36:04,101 --> 00:36:05,457
They were... No. They were probably just in

1003
00:36:05,457 --> 00:36:06,095
the safe. Right?

1004
00:36:06,908 --> 00:36:08,423
That why why would you why would you

1005
00:36:08,423 --> 00:36:10,497
steal the console general's passport?

1006
00:36:12,730 --> 00:36:14,246
That's like that. I mean, that's a pretty

1007
00:36:14,246 --> 00:36:16,160
cool passport. You have diplomatic community.

1008
00:36:16,653 --> 00:36:19,282
You get arrested. I'm surprised woods didn't, you

1009
00:36:19,282 --> 00:36:21,353
know, try and pull that. I mean, may

1010
00:36:21,353 --> 00:36:23,185
you think it was careful, like, an oceans

1011
00:36:23,185 --> 00:36:24,858
11, like, I'm gonna get this guy's passport.

1012
00:36:25,017 --> 00:36:26,622
He looks to sufficient like me that this

1013
00:36:26,622 --> 00:36:28,369
is all gonna work. But we should we

1014
00:36:28,369 --> 00:36:30,036
should finish the we should finish the story

1015
00:36:30,036 --> 00:36:32,815
of of what happens to to mister Woods,

1016
00:36:33,053 --> 00:36:35,851
so generally because he's not actually convicted of

1017
00:36:38,158 --> 00:36:39,056
residential burglary,

1018
00:36:40,146 --> 00:36:40,306
us,

1019
00:36:40,957 --> 00:36:43,286
specifically, it was damaging property

1020
00:36:43,740 --> 00:36:45,172
occupied by a foreign official,

1021
00:36:46,285 --> 00:36:48,512
foreign official, almost certainly being the the federal

1022
00:36:48,512 --> 00:36:52,025
hook. His guidelines range is is relatively low.

1023
00:36:52,184 --> 00:36:53,456
He ends up with a... And this is,

1024
00:36:53,535 --> 00:36:55,148
of course, the the big

1025
00:36:55,523 --> 00:36:58,067
manual of of good and evil where the

1026
00:36:58,067 --> 00:37:00,623
the federal a federal court and criminal sentencing

1027
00:37:00,623 --> 00:37:02,371
sort of, like, weighs your sins and and

1028
00:37:02,371 --> 00:37:05,230
tries to figure out exactly how precisely you

1029
00:37:05,230 --> 00:37:06,262
should deserve to be punished.

1030
00:37:07,554 --> 00:37:10,051
And his his guidelines range is is only

1031
00:37:10,110 --> 00:37:10,430
in

1032
00:37:11,629 --> 00:37:12,507
around a year,

1033
00:37:13,147 --> 00:37:14,825
but the court varies upward,

1034
00:37:15,638 --> 00:37:18,431
sentences him to 30 months, and the fifth

1035
00:37:18,431 --> 00:37:21,143
circuit as anyone could expect from an unpublished

1036
00:37:21,143 --> 00:37:22,340
career fifth circuit opinion,

1037
00:37:23,155 --> 00:37:26,755
says no. Obvious not. You have behaved very

1038
00:37:26,755 --> 00:37:29,074
seriously. You're lucky. You know, you didn't have

1039
00:37:29,074 --> 00:37:31,130
a base level of 17 for committing resident

1040
00:37:31,409 --> 00:37:33,409
Burglar, you have all these other things that

1041
00:37:33,409 --> 00:37:35,750
weren't even factored into your record, like juvenile,

1042
00:37:36,289 --> 00:37:39,650
crimes, like fighting and, like, beef beats up

1043
00:37:39,650 --> 00:37:40,690
is cell made or something.

1044
00:37:41,903 --> 00:37:43,841
And so, of course, the

1045
00:37:44,619 --> 00:37:46,617
the court affirm a 30 month sentence, which

1046
00:37:46,696 --> 00:37:47,335
I... You know,

1047
00:37:48,309 --> 00:37:50,485
I am not the biggest fan of the

1048
00:37:51,022 --> 00:37:53,417
car state, I think, in the sentencing and

1049
00:37:53,417 --> 00:37:53,896
guidelines,

1050
00:37:54,295 --> 00:37:56,210
the the table that says what you actually

1051
00:37:56,210 --> 00:37:58,060
get. Probably divide all the numbers by 4.

1052
00:37:58,698 --> 00:38:00,453
But even I think 30 months for, like,

1053
00:38:00,533 --> 00:38:01,192
a serious

1054
00:38:01,570 --> 00:38:03,563
residential burglary sounds pretty fine,

1055
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:05,956
plus, you know, whatever,

1056
00:38:07,008 --> 00:38:09,901
in est harm he has done to American

1057
00:38:10,358 --> 00:38:10,916
Uk relations.

1058
00:38:12,033 --> 00:38:14,266
But but perhaps a more interesting point

1059
00:38:14,664 --> 00:38:17,790
of the of the sentencing is that a

1060
00:38:17,790 --> 00:38:19,864
mister Woods loves his alcohol,

1061
00:38:20,901 --> 00:38:23,533
he gloves drinking, and he doesn't do it

1062
00:38:23,533 --> 00:38:25,925
that much anymore, but he sometimes drinks to

1063
00:38:25,925 --> 00:38:26,300
excess

1064
00:38:26,815 --> 00:38:29,192
And at oral pronounce of the sentence,

1065
00:38:29,746 --> 00:38:31,648
the district court says that while he is

1066
00:38:31,648 --> 00:38:33,232
in drug treatment program,

1067
00:38:33,724 --> 00:38:35,398
he is not allowed as a condition of

1068
00:38:35,398 --> 00:38:37,789
his sentence to drink alcohol to excess.

1069
00:38:39,065 --> 00:38:39,963
But then

1070
00:38:40,499 --> 00:38:42,529
in the written

1071
00:38:42,985 --> 00:38:44,658
sentencing order that comes out, it just says

1072
00:38:44,658 --> 00:38:47,924
he can't drink alcohol to access. And

1073
00:38:48,801 --> 00:38:50,793
you're you're Anthony, you're you're looking like you

1074
00:38:50,793 --> 00:38:52,803
wanna interject. To hope saying. Well, no. No.

1075
00:38:52,963 --> 00:38:54,880
You're you're saying it right. So so, basically,

1076
00:38:55,599 --> 00:38:57,677
we're... It was supposed to be orally when

1077
00:38:57,677 --> 00:38:59,136
he's part of this program.

1078
00:38:59,609 --> 00:39:01,607
Which is really about his substance of abuse.

1079
00:39:02,166 --> 00:39:05,042
He can't drink alcohol to access. But Yeah.

1080
00:39:05,521 --> 00:39:07,847
The the written order says... Alcoholic says, which

1081
00:39:07,926 --> 00:39:10,626
I'm guessing would be through his probation period.

1082
00:39:11,976 --> 00:39:13,802
And that the most interesting thing the me

1083
00:39:13,802 --> 00:39:15,811
is is how the court put it and

1084
00:39:16,598 --> 00:39:19,232
whether it was judge Ul and his clerk

1085
00:39:19,232 --> 00:39:21,627
or a Toilet or whoever, I think some...

1086
00:39:21,866 --> 00:39:23,782
This was not an accident that it was

1087
00:39:23,782 --> 00:39:26,511
written this way. Would said he began consuming

1088
00:39:26,511 --> 00:39:28,847
alcohol as a teenager, and although he

1089
00:39:29,224 --> 00:39:32,279
now he only drinks on where kate rare

1090
00:39:32,338 --> 00:39:33,695
occasions when he does,

1091
00:39:34,190 --> 00:39:35,150
it is excessive.

1092
00:39:35,869 --> 00:39:37,730
I don't know if he drinks Do,

1093
00:39:38,750 --> 00:39:40,429
but I I think that was in the

1094
00:39:40,429 --> 00:39:42,197
back of the mine. Of yeah. Well, you

1095
00:39:42,197 --> 00:39:43,947
know, just as a know, the the list

1096
00:39:43,947 --> 00:39:46,117
of things that were stolen from the house

1097
00:39:46,412 --> 00:39:46,912
includes

1098
00:39:47,525 --> 00:39:49,831
a large amount of a alcohol. Yeah. Yeah.

1099
00:39:50,070 --> 00:39:51,000
Which which

1100
00:39:51,357 --> 00:39:53,106
he's not gonna drink all the time. And

1101
00:39:53,106 --> 00:39:54,457
so, you know, and it's funny that he

1102
00:39:54,457 --> 00:39:56,364
bought... He and he chow ultimately what happens

1103
00:39:56,364 --> 00:39:58,431
is he challenges this condition on appeal.

1104
00:39:59,003 --> 00:39:59,980
Because the written

1105
00:40:00,356 --> 00:40:00,856
pronounce,

1106
00:40:01,708 --> 00:40:03,459
or sorry, the, you know, the writing, which

1107
00:40:03,459 --> 00:40:05,369
is that he shall not consume alcohol to

1108
00:40:05,369 --> 00:40:07,854
access conflicts with the oral pronounce, which is

1109
00:40:07,854 --> 00:40:10,087
that he shown not consume alcohol excessively while

1110
00:40:10,087 --> 00:40:12,479
he's in the drug treatment program that that's

1111
00:40:12,479 --> 00:40:13,994
part of his. And and this guy is

1112
00:40:13,994 --> 00:40:16,163
like, he's already got the ability to drink

1113
00:40:16,163 --> 00:40:18,637
alcohol. He's only limited from consuming it excessively.

1114
00:40:18,956 --> 00:40:21,909
Apparently, that's not super important. That's not sufficient

1115
00:40:21,909 --> 00:40:24,393
for him. He wants at least sometimes to

1116
00:40:24,393 --> 00:40:27,570
be able to drink alcohol to access. And

1117
00:40:27,570 --> 00:40:28,547
so he challenges

1118
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:29,238
the

1119
00:40:29,953 --> 00:40:30,612
the written

1120
00:40:31,065 --> 00:40:33,050
restriction as inconsistent with the oral pronounce. They're

1121
00:40:33,050 --> 00:40:34,974
act actually is a settled, like, very black

1122
00:40:34,974 --> 00:40:36,986
letter rule that is the oral pronounce

1123
00:40:37,362 --> 00:40:37,998
that controls,

1124
00:40:38,794 --> 00:40:40,385
we were sort of debating before we started

1125
00:40:40,385 --> 00:40:42,548
recording like, what's going on, who actually peeled

1126
00:40:42,548 --> 00:40:43,664
this. Why did this happen?

1127
00:40:44,382 --> 00:40:45,817
My working theory is that, you know, he

1128
00:40:45,817 --> 00:40:47,730
was trying to get a sentence cut in

1129
00:40:47,730 --> 00:40:49,904
half because he got this substantially above guideline

1130
00:40:49,962 --> 00:40:52,041
sentence, But while we were... Walk was up

1131
00:40:52,041 --> 00:40:53,548
there, you know, his attorney threw him a

1132
00:40:53,548 --> 00:40:55,768
bone and said sure. I'll get that alcohol

1133
00:40:55,768 --> 00:40:58,227
restriction removed, and the fifth circuit removes it.

1134
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:00,320
I I did pull up the brief, so

1135
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:02,480
it was he was represented by the federal

1136
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:05,780
public defenders office, and they raised 2 separate

1137
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:06,640
issues on appeal.

1138
00:41:07,294 --> 00:41:09,449
The first was the length of the sentence

1139
00:41:09,449 --> 00:41:12,184
and the second was the alcohol thing. So,

1140
00:41:12,642 --> 00:41:14,318
you know, that's your, I guess, your tax

1141
00:41:14,318 --> 00:41:15,835
dollars that were. Having 5.

1142
00:41:16,409 --> 00:41:18,329
I don't... Is is this like a litigation

1143
00:41:18,329 --> 00:41:20,409
tactic? Is this is this the opposite of

1144
00:41:20,409 --> 00:41:22,409
don't bring too many week issues? Like what

1145
00:41:22,409 --> 00:41:24,489
if I bring a second issue that doesn't

1146
00:41:24,489 --> 00:41:26,651
matter? But where I'm clearly right on the

1147
00:41:26,651 --> 00:41:28,975
black letter law. Does that increase my credibility

1148
00:41:29,030 --> 00:41:31,410
and show that, you know, suspicious things that

1149
00:41:31,410 --> 00:41:34,295
should be reversed, swear were happening below. That

1150
00:41:34,295 --> 00:41:35,891
that might have been their thinking. Maybe they're

1151
00:41:35,891 --> 00:41:37,327
thinking well, they're gonna send it back on

1152
00:41:37,327 --> 00:41:39,323
the alcohol thing anyway, maybe they'll send it

1153
00:41:39,323 --> 00:41:41,733
back on the first issue. Well, they send

1154
00:41:41,733 --> 00:41:43,190
it back for, like, technical

1155
00:41:43,888 --> 00:41:45,027
clerical, like.

1156
00:41:46,362 --> 00:41:48,757
And so... And so, yeah, So mister Woods,

1157
00:41:50,684 --> 00:41:52,056
residential burglar is

1158
00:41:52,586 --> 00:41:55,518
doing his 30 months, but he will be

1159
00:41:55,518 --> 00:41:58,313
able to drink excessively while out side of

1160
00:41:58,313 --> 00:42:00,308
drug treatment, and that is the end of

1161
00:42:00,308 --> 00:42:02,884
this per case that is just as important

1162
00:42:03,262 --> 00:42:05,257
as rolling back the image. But he won't

1163
00:42:05,257 --> 00:42:06,476
be able to drink

1164
00:42:07,742 --> 00:42:08,560
his majesty,

1165
00:42:08,934 --> 00:42:09,434
government's

1166
00:42:09,889 --> 00:42:12,590
alcohol because that was recaptured when they... Yeah.

1167
00:42:12,829 --> 00:42:15,308
Yeah. Found that yeah. He's... He won't get

1168
00:42:15,308 --> 00:42:17,216
to use the passport. If they're... I'm guessing

1169
00:42:17,216 --> 00:42:19,362
the large amount of alcohol. They they must

1170
00:42:19,362 --> 00:42:21,827
have, you know, like, fancy dinners.

1171
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:24,320
And Of an Am ambassador. I don't know

1172
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:24,820
just

1173
00:42:26,079 --> 00:42:28,400
Console general. It's just a console. But he's

1174
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:30,480
like he's like the biggest brit in Texas.

1175
00:42:30,733 --> 00:42:32,324
Right? So there must be, you know, I

1176
00:42:32,324 --> 00:42:34,074
don't know, heads of oil companies or he's

1177
00:42:34,074 --> 00:42:36,222
trying to do trade stuff. They probably have

1178
00:42:36,222 --> 00:42:38,701
fancy dinners there. That's that's a that's a

1179
00:42:38,701 --> 00:42:40,788
fair point. I I hope those dinners weren't

1180
00:42:41,081 --> 00:42:43,566
delayed while they were missing their,

1181
00:42:44,177 --> 00:42:44,335
you know.

1182
00:42:45,462 --> 00:42:46,654
And I just wanna push back on it

1183
00:42:46,654 --> 00:42:48,641
a little bit. It says when they found

1184
00:42:48,641 --> 00:42:51,025
them, they found some of the stolen items.

1185
00:42:51,342 --> 00:42:52,137
So we don't know.

1186
00:42:53,425 --> 00:42:55,577
From the face of the opinion, whether all

1187
00:42:55,577 --> 00:42:57,887
of the alcohol was ever It's good. You

1188
00:42:57,887 --> 00:43:00,292
know, I I comb the records super hard

1189
00:43:00,292 --> 00:43:02,125
when I'm putting together a summary judgment motion,

1190
00:43:02,284 --> 00:43:04,457
but I I admit that I did not

1191
00:43:04,515 --> 00:43:06,688
apply a hundred percent of my usual warrior

1192
00:43:06,746 --> 00:43:07,818
sc. To

1193
00:43:08,904 --> 00:43:11,520
reviewing the details of this case. Maybe the

1194
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:13,740
alcohol is buried somewhere in Texas still. Like,

1195
00:43:13,898 --> 00:43:14,905
we don't get in

1196
00:43:15,422 --> 00:43:17,094
hidden... Yeah Mean, yeah. It could be like,

1197
00:43:17,254 --> 00:43:18,231
you know, rare

1198
00:43:18,847 --> 00:43:22,032
cask of of fancy European vintage, not from

1199
00:43:22,191 --> 00:43:24,118
England to obviously, but that that they bought.

1200
00:43:24,277 --> 00:43:26,191
Big portals. I I think is is what

1201
00:43:26,191 --> 00:43:28,046
you would you would have because of the

1202
00:43:28,742 --> 00:43:31,134
England's old oldest allies is is Portugal as

1203
00:43:31,134 --> 00:43:32,272
they say. So

1204
00:43:32,664 --> 00:43:34,440
That's what you would have at the Am

1205
00:43:34,737 --> 00:43:35,237
ambassador

1206
00:43:35,695 --> 00:43:36,014
dinner.

1207
00:43:36,971 --> 00:43:38,566
Yeah. So I, you know, so on the

1208
00:43:38,566 --> 00:43:40,879
1 hand, I'd like that we're still throwing

1209
00:43:40,879 --> 00:43:42,888
off the yoke of our compressors, But on

1210
00:43:42,888 --> 00:43:44,641
the other hand, you know Burglary is probably

1211
00:43:44,641 --> 00:43:45,917
immoral and we're pretty cool with him now.

1212
00:43:46,156 --> 00:43:46,656
So

1213
00:43:47,033 --> 00:43:49,902
I don't know. Don't rob British foreign officials.

1214
00:43:51,195 --> 00:43:52,635
I want... You know, what I was thinking

1215
00:43:52,635 --> 00:43:54,494
is whether he knew this was

1216
00:43:54,795 --> 00:43:55,614
a big

1217
00:43:55,914 --> 00:43:56,974
British consul

1218
00:43:57,434 --> 00:43:58,155
fellow or not.

1219
00:43:59,929 --> 00:44:01,864
If he would've... Did he get a better

1220
00:44:02,641 --> 00:44:05,033
deal because he was in federal court than

1221
00:44:05,033 --> 00:44:07,426
in Texas State court or I I can't

1222
00:44:07,426 --> 00:44:09,260
think they go easy on this type of.

1223
00:44:09,753 --> 00:44:12,476
Burglar. I mean, I don't know Texas criminal

1224
00:44:12,532 --> 00:44:15,391
procedure and sentencing guidelines and all that. But

1225
00:44:16,186 --> 00:44:18,106
I mean, they have a whole separate state

1226
00:44:18,344 --> 00:44:19,874
Supreme Court just to be harsh

1227
00:44:20,325 --> 00:44:20,722
miles.

1228
00:44:22,703 --> 00:44:25,970
So maybe what's good for The Yeah. Maybe

1229
00:44:25,970 --> 00:44:28,355
he got lost happen to be AAA

1230
00:44:28,355 --> 00:44:28,991
general console.

1231
00:44:29,627 --> 00:44:32,649
Yeah. 30 30 months instead of 30 years

1232
00:44:32,807 --> 00:44:34,159
Who knows? Who knows? It's

1233
00:44:35,526 --> 00:44:37,299
It's a weird time to

1234
00:44:37,833 --> 00:44:39,902
in in in the life of, of mister

1235
00:44:40,061 --> 00:44:40,300
Woods.

1236
00:44:41,096 --> 00:44:43,880
Well, for those of you interested in British.

1237
00:44:44,850 --> 00:44:48,112
American relations. We did a show, actually, a

1238
00:44:48,112 --> 00:44:50,284
little over a year ago about the British

1239
00:44:50,977 --> 00:44:51,136
constitution,

1240
00:44:51,868 --> 00:44:54,019
and with a a couple fellows who put

1241
00:44:54,019 --> 00:44:57,387
together edited a book on the changing British

1242
00:44:57,683 --> 00:44:59,436
constitution. So we'll put a link in the

1243
00:44:59,436 --> 00:45:01,521
show notes to that if that's... That's your

1244
00:45:01,521 --> 00:45:03,989
thing that was our our biggest ever foreign

1245
00:45:03,989 --> 00:45:06,058
audience, I believe. By the way, was that

1246
00:45:06,058 --> 00:45:08,207
podcast because we could track who listens to

1247
00:45:08,207 --> 00:45:10,277
this stuff, Not individually, but by country.

1248
00:45:11,009 --> 00:45:12,366
Doctors will make you say that if you

1249
00:45:12,366 --> 00:45:14,063
have, like a stroke. British

1250
00:45:14,521 --> 00:45:16,437
constitution because it involves your tongue so much

1251
00:45:16,437 --> 00:45:18,193
to make all the consonants. It's like testing

1252
00:45:18,193 --> 00:45:19,630
whether your hypo muscle nerve works.

1253
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:23,066
At or your biggest nervous both. But you

1254
00:45:23,066 --> 00:45:24,418
know, I I just wanted to come in

1255
00:45:24,418 --> 00:45:26,168
hard with with the weird facts for our

1256
00:45:26,407 --> 00:45:28,176
July fourth. 5. I did not know that.

1257
00:45:28,335 --> 00:45:30,569
But everything about Britain. But I I think

1258
00:45:30,569 --> 00:45:32,963
that everyone should be thinking about that this

1259
00:45:32,963 --> 00:45:33,760
fourth of July.

1260
00:45:34,494 --> 00:45:35,952
Whether you are celebrating,

1261
00:45:36,649 --> 00:45:38,027
the the American

1262
00:45:38,804 --> 00:45:41,519
declaration of independence or whether you're you're voting

1263
00:45:41,519 --> 00:45:43,594
in the Uk for our Uk listeners and,

1264
00:45:43,768 --> 00:45:45,356
in selecting a a new government.

1265
00:45:46,230 --> 00:45:49,008
I hope you have a brilliant fourth of

1266
00:45:49,246 --> 00:45:51,445
July as they say across the pond and

1267
00:45:52,045 --> 00:45:52,864
and for

1268
00:45:53,164 --> 00:45:53,724
everyone else,

1269
00:45:54,525 --> 00:45:55,505
I hope that

1270
00:45:55,885 --> 00:45:56,625
you all

1271
00:45:57,324 --> 00:45:57,885
get engaged.