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Hey, Scuttlebutt listeners. This is episode 195.
This week, we have another episode in our
segment, Catching Up with Old Friends.
In this episode, we welcome Will Schick back
to the show.
Will is one of the scuttlebutt
OGs.
For those of us who grew up in
the eighties and nineties,
OGs has a very specific meaning.
But for the context of a podcast,
we'll just go with original guest.
He was our fourth guest, so please go
back and listen to episode four to hear
more about Will's background and service.
For those who missed it, Will is a
former marine intelligence officer
and is currently the director of programs and
partnerships at the Asian American Journalist Association.
It goes without saying, we did a good
bit of catching up, and it was great
to hear all the cool stuff Will is
doing in journalism
and mentoring the up and coming generation
to help them navigate this fraught media landscape.
And it was great to hear his perspective
on how we get information
and how we consume media.
Here is episode 195.
Hey, Scuttlebutt listeners. Thank you for joining us
in your continued support. I'm Vic,
and this is a, continuation of our series,
Catching Up with Old Friends. And so I'm
really happy,
to be welcoming,
a good friend of mine
and previous guest, Will Schick, to the show.
Will, thanks for coming, man, or being here.
Yep.
So,
unfortunately,
we're probably, like,
15 miles apart as the crow flies when
we're doing this remote.
So,
you know, this is what happens when you
do a weekday
afternoon
interview.
It's gotta be
You gotta move the location to this to,
like, a bar or you gotta make it
more enticing. Dude, we have we have a
mobile suite. I'm gonna This doesn't sound
doesn't sound fun.
Yeah. No. It's it's,
we did a,
when we were filming,
our Fallujah documentary, I was getting a lot
of audio.
And, one of the guests,
who did some of the voice over
on their account of Fallujah,
I made the mistake of bring bringing a
half rack with me to entice them to
do the thing. And so
it
really tails off then towards the end and
stuff. That's pretty funny.
Yeah.
So,
alright. Well, dude,
so it's been a while. Like, you were
one of our first guests
when we kicked the show off,
and so it's been a while, man. So
how's everything been, man? Let's catch up.
Yeah.
Gosh. I'm trying to remember the last time
we talked. I think I was probably still
working at Street Sense. That's right.
Newsroom covering poverty and homelessness.
And then I eventually reached the point there
where,
well, I, you know, I ended up getting
a new opportunity. So then I ended up
moving over to a place called the Asian
American Journalists Association
where
I help people become journalists and also to
do journalism better.
One of the things that I started thinking
about a lot when I used to work
at Street Sense,
which, you know, we work a lot with
folks who are homeless, worked a lot with
folks who are low income, living in poverty,
thinking about just policy,
the intersection of policy and, like, life, right,
and to tracking how,
policy decisions made at, like, the city council
level that impacted, like, people locally.
So, yeah, while I was there, I started
thinking a lot about who gets to do
this journalism because it seems to be a
very exclusive field.
And one of the,
big dis disparities or one of the one
of the gulfs one of the things that
I noticed was just different was
we had this, like, chunk of people who
sold the paper, and the chunk of people
who sold the paper tend to be folks
that are very low income,
predominantly
folks of color. And the folks who came
in for internships and the journalists who covered
the stories
were generally more well off.
And I started thinking about, wow. You know,
wouldn't it be cool if we got some
of these other folks to do some of
these stories? So we started doing that, and
we started working in that realm. And then
I started thinking about just broadly speaking. Yeah.
And just even my own challenge. Right? Like,
to to even make it in journalism as
a veteran
by itself is very difficult because there's, like,
all these preconceived notions. So when I talk
about the old itself even being exclusive, it's,
like, exclusive to people that have gone to,
like,
journalism school at, like, a very prestigious place,
and it's not always that welcoming field. So
as you got this opportunity, you go to
the Asian American Journal Association,
who had always been kind of helpful to
me just, like, on the side.
It was never really a place that I,
I had intended per se ongoing,
but I just like the people a lot.
And then I end up here, and it's
it's really rewarding, you know, working a lot
with,
just really students all over the country,
and also professionals. Right? So they I I
did their executive leadership training program.
Yeah. It's it's really great. And we're we're
doing a lot of different work.
I don't know if I should go into
examples of that. And one of the things
that we we did recently,
it was the, we published a style guide.
And so, you know, for
for rings, you know, I I always think
about, like, naval letter format. You know? Yeah.
In journalism, we have the AP style guide
and then and, like, in in the military,
you have, like, naval letter format or whatever
it's called now. I don't even know what
it's morphed to. I think some DOD
morphous thing that people are coming to. But
those kinds of guides, right, steer the kind
of conversation that you're able to have.
And so,
at a a j a,
we published our own style guide just, you
know, recently, I think, in the past couple
years. And our style guide,
kinda gets at some age in Asian American
issues and, you know, interrogates some of the
language that we use around like, that we
talk about stuff. So
one example of it is, you know, Russia,
Ukraine
conflict, the war.
Russia has been employing these drones
that are, like, self detonating. And so when
they hit, like, a vehicle, they just like
blow up. And they've been calling these drones,
the media,
in in just journals and journals. So we
call it describing these drones as kamikaze attacks
and kamikaze drones. Yeah. It's just, like, kind
of
pissed off a lot
of military vets like myself and other, like,
the Asian Americans who are like, dude, this
has something to do with Comic Con and
the attacks. Right. I mean, I got no
problem with you using the language. Right? But,
like, that means something. Right? That's like World
War two. That's like this whole other thing
that happened. Right? And, like, that's like, nobody's
actually like, a person is not piloting that
and crashing and dying. Right. Right.
And so maybe we call it something different.
And then they're like, well, what do you
call it? You can call it a self
detonating drone, an attack drone, like, anything. Right?
Describe what it does. And so,
you know, recently, we put that out there
and and, we were able to work with
different publications to even change the way that
they report on it to give you a
little more accuracy. We actually teamed up with
the military veterans journalism network, which is headed
by,
actually, several guys that were in the marines.
Those would be actually great people to talk
to. Yeah. No. That sounds really great. Yeah.
That's it. That's it. I didn't really understand
sort of the power of language,
and even the presentation of language until I
came here.
And then
you know? Because, I mean, even when we
were at AU,
like, the big thing was
understanding the form, playing with form, doing the
art.
Yes. You're sort of, like, MLA
adjacent, but, like like, no one's really gonna,
like, hold your feet to the fire
over some of the stuff,
as long as you,
like, can sort of explain
this is what I'm trying to do creatively.
And, guy, it's fine. You know, whatever.
Also, because we had so many workshops, it
was like, alright. You know?
You were being we were being graded on
it. So I never really,
understood the importance until I came here, and
they're like, yeah. We don't do AP. We
do Chicago Manual style. I'm like,
oh, great. I know all those. Like, what
are you talking about?
Of course, I know those.
And so I then I dive just diving
into it, and and it's like,
you know, it's almost like,
for theology folks out there, it's like the
different, like, biblical translations. You know? Like, oh,
well, you know, we're deciding to go with
this instead of this, and this is why.
Anyhow,
so what does that mean then? So you
guys put out your own style guide.
When you said you put it out, does
that mean that, like, you're sending it
to, these larger,
news outlets
for them to reference? Okay. So, one of
the things we we have members, about 2,000
members worldwide
as part of our association, and many of
them work in different newsrooms.
Okay. Inform the committee,
and our committee also consists of folks who
are editors at different places. And the whole
reason for that is, like, you know, it's
important I think, maybe for your listener audience
too, like, when you think about just having
a veteran's perspective.
Yeah. Oftentimes,
like, if you have a veteran who's a
journalist, like, that's kind of like a uniform.
And so, like, having somebody there to be
a part of that discussion can maybe who's
like, who is a veteran might be able
to point out that, like, hey. That story
you have on gun violence,
like, you you didn't really accurately describe what
a gun does. Like, I don't
and then to kind of, like, give that
sort of sanity check. Similarly with, like, AAJA,
you know, our members, our editors at various
publications, and we see this as kind of
like a brain trust. Like, does this even
make sense? Right? Yeah. And we've done stuff
in the past where it's like
you know, we had, like, victims of, like,
hate crimes, and it's like
can we just tell you how to pronounce
your names properly so you don't, like, mess
it up online? Yeah. Yeah. Set up when
you go, on broadcast. So we do things
like that where it's kind of like a
common sense thing.
But it is, yeah. And so when we
say publish it, we have a thing we
have a website
out there, a jstyleguide.org.
And then,
in addition to the website, you know, we've
we've we've been kind of just going around
touring different newsrooms and talking to people and
just showing them the stuff. And,
you know, we have a few I mean,
you know, basically, if it's, like, not a,
slur you know, if it's a slur, we
ask you not to use it, basically. And
then other things that there's a lot of
food for thought there. Right? Like and I
think oftentimes, people just
maybe haven't really realized that other people are
thinking in the same way. One of the
things that's kind of interesting is
recently, actually, it went and,
there's a,
there was an exhibit. Actually, there's actually this
whole thing.
It's actually nationwide. They're taking around this book
of names of people who
were incarcerated during World War two in the
Japanese American,
camps. Yeah.
Otherwise known as internment camps. And so,
they're taking this book of names around and
actually,
people who are relatives or other folks that
wanna remember them, it's like dot the you
know, put a dot in the name or
next to the name. And it's like this
huge book, and they're going to do this
tour across the country. But the Japanese American
Citizens League for forever has been like,
hey. These families were, like, forced from their
homes and put into a camp that were
under armed guard and not allowed to leave.
What the hell does internment even mean? They
were incarcerated, right, voluntarily.
And so that's kinda like the term that
we so we put that like, that's like
inner style. We say, well I mean, say
what say what you will or however you
wanna describe it, but people are, like, locked
up in that loud leak. Yeah. Yeah. And,
you know, that that's just, like, fact. Right?
History.
And so we're like some people have been
using internment, but other folks, right, like
are like, hey. That's not really an accurate
term,
and not a really accurate way to kinda
describe it. Right?
A better a more accurate way might be
to say these folks are incarcerated. Now, you
know,
you'll still see internment out there. Yeah. Sure.
Well, I was just thinking, like, one of
my favorite books is, Just Americans,
that talks about the,
Hawaii
I draw a blank every time. Like, the
hundred
eleventh?
If you should read the the Purple Heart
Brigade.
Yes. Yes. I think it's, the
no. I I think it's like the I
don't know the, like, the May
or something or
April
or something like that. Yeah. Maybe it is
for it says the yeah. Because the May,
that's Band of Brothers, guys.
Yeah.
But
yeah. Anyways, I
You know, for second, I think it was.
Okay. Yeah. Clearly, I've done my research here.
But,
Daniel,
Inouye was, you know, he
lost his arm and
Yeah. So, anyway,
they refer to that in the book. And
now granted that book's, like, 20 years old
or something, but,
yeah, they refer to that as the, the
Japanese internment camps. But, you know?
I mean, that's the other thing too. Right?
So, like, language is, like, what you make
of it. And so, like,
my personal view, right, is that, like,
you kinda have to speak the same language
to understand each other. So there's a thing
to be said about
having, like, agency over the language that you
use. And it's like when you put me
in a room so I'm doing this other,
like, leadership program thing Yeah. Recently. I'm gonna
be in Florida next week for it. But
in our group and it's, like, mostly journalists
and journalists, executives, etcetera. In this group, it's
crazy. There are, like, two other marines.
So one guy is this guy, Thomas Brennan,
New Braun's Warhorse. Really great guy on your
show.
And then another guy, he's actually from the
APU, he's in the Royal Marines. But it's
interesting because you put us in the like,
put us in a room together,
and suddenly we're speaking the same language. And
it it it could cover so much more
ground because if this is, like, common language
that we have. Yeah. So something to be
said there about that language and then being
able to have access to it. Right? So,
like,
I've maybe there's, like, maybe a handful of
folks that I've worked with over the years
who've maybe had
who've had more
exposure to veterans.
And so sometimes it's easier to talk to
them because they speak the lingo. So I
think there's something about being able to speak
the lingo. And there are different communities out
there that use different kinds of lingos, and
it's better when we know what the conventions
are for each of them so that we
can, like,
move,
within those communities better. So I I think
something to be said about that. I think
there's a lot to be said. I wanna
touch on,
the, the this executive
committee that you guys are running, which I
think is super fascinating. But,
I do wanna
keep on this while we're talking about it
because
one of the things that I'm really fascinated
with right now is information,
how we get information, and how information is
disseminated, how we, you know, absorb and ingest
it.
And I think the language part is, you
know, a key piece
to this, especially we're talking,
you know, with before we,
started recording, you know, we were talking about,
like,
well, what do we wanna talk about?
And one of the things was, like, well,
you know, I'm a this is the d
you know, a AAJA is a DEI organization,
and so that's gonna come up. And, like,
yeah. Let's let's lean into it.
And,
you know, in in that vein,
when you hear,
something like an, you know, Asian American journalists,
and you're talking about a DEI organization,
it isn't this monolithic thing where, hey. All
we're doing is pushing
Asian American sort of interest because you as
you reference more
you reference being a veteran more than you've
referenced being Asian.
And I think that that's where,
language plays such a huge role because it
isn't just about
an agenda.
It is, like you said, communicating on a
level that is very similar
and that has multiple interests.
It isn't this sort of, like, yeah, like,
this monolithic thing where we're just trying to
push some sort of agenda.
You what you guys are doing
is you sort of have this, you know,
Venn diagram
almost where,
you know, especially if we're talking Taiwan, we're
talking about tense relations in The Pacific.
Having a veteran Asian American
would probably be really great to help, like,
sort of help level the playing field on
the type of language that's being used
to
convey information.
I don't know. I it's kind of a
Sorry. I think you're absolutely right. And I
think, you know, one of the things that
I think
oftentimes gets misconstrued is that is that,
you know, when we're we're at Asian American
Journal Association or even, like, I'm a member
of the military veterans in journalism network. One
of the things is, like, we think about
is,
don't exclude us don't exclude us from that
space because of who we are. Right? And,
there could be an argument made,
a compelling one at that, that maybe we
should be considered
to be part of that conversation
because we, you know, our folks might bring
a different perspective. And, you know, when I
was in the marines, I I got foreign
language proficiency pay. Like, I speak a hand
like, as you know, I speak a handful
of languages. Mhmm. It'd be really dumb, right,
like, to to have a marine that speaks,
like, a local language and then not use
them there. Right. Even consider
bringing that marine with you on a deployment
to that particular locale. Because, man, does that
does that, like that's a force multiplier right
there. Like, you can get,
so much out of that. And so,
yeah. So I I just I think there's
a value add from,
you know, from that kind of standpoint of
what kind of skills folks bring. You know?
And it's it's,
Yeah. There was a Simpsons bit. I think
it was during,
the, who shot mister Burns series.
But they had this guy come out of
the court. You know, all the journalists are
all like,
doing all that stuff. And then one guy
goes, who are you? Why are you here?
And the other guy, the main,
Kent Brockman guy goes, do your research. Like,
shoves him out of the way. And I
sort of feel like in a lot of
ways,
having this sort of inclusion
I know that's a dirty word.
But it at least
considering it as being a force multiplier, like
you said, sort of gets
it gets you ahead of that who are
you and why are you here
part of any sort of journalism or any
sort of information gathering, intelligence gathering where
you don't have to get your IPB.
You don't have to spend as much time
in your IPB.
Yeah. I I I honestly and, you know,
I was like an intel guy in the
marines. And so, like That's why I went
that's why I said
things that happened when I was there. I
was like, I was stationed at third rate
of time in Hawaii,
and, almost every officer in the unit cycled
through Korea to do a deployment there, to
do some kind of exercise. Right? And I
was the only officer who spoke fluent Korean
and the only officer that didn't go.
That wasn't planned that way. Right? I got
because I did a diploma to Afghanistan. I
was I did something else in Okinawa and
it was different places. This is on the
thirty first muse. So, like, it just so
happened that I wasn't in the exercise schedule.
But boy, it's had an oversight. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Holy crap. Is that an oversight? You
know? And, The tip is the tip. The
tip is the tip. Yeah. Exactly. And so,
like, I think in that way, sometimes it's
like a smart allocation of your resources.
Right? Like, I I can't remember exactly how
you do it in the PP, but you
look at, like, what is your tasks? What
resources do you have available? Yeah. Boy, doesn't
it make sense to have a wide variety
of resources?
Right? Yeah. And and I don't know. Like,
you know, when I deployed Afghanistan, you know,
we had a guy on our team that
spoke Farsi, like, full. Like, boom. Like, is
that a huge it's a huge,
help? So it's like, I think things like
considering things like that
is,
is incredibly important. And I think not just
within the military, but even outside. Right? Like,
there's applications everywhere else, and we see it
happen quite a bit.
Well, let let's
as far as that's concerned then, so,
assuming that those considerations are taken and then
sort of, you know, I'm asking you to
sort of look at this through both your,
journalist
journalist lens, but also your intelligence
bubble lens is that
in this sort of current era, I guess
I mean, I guess
it is officially the information age. Right? Like,
we're past sort of the digital age kind
of into the in It's information and disinformation
age probably more accurately described. Yeah. It it
that's what I'm getting at. So in this
era where we are,
it isn't necessarily
the the likes and the reposts don't go
to the person who is conveying the information
the most accurately. It's usually the person who
either puts it out first
or makes it the most salacious.
And so and then the algorithms, you know,
obviously just jump all over it.
What does that mean then as you we're
talking about sort of,
the proper
use of resources and allocation of resources?
It seems like something like what you guys
are doing, especially for if you're covering
things in Asia or in Asian American communities.
Right? Like, that would just make sense then
to get ahead of that whole, like, who
are you and why are you here sort
of aspect of
and also maybe even get
to get, certain perspectives
in that information
sharing
that you wouldn't get from someone who's just
coming in cold. Right?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I I think so
there's, like, multiple things that are happening here.
Right? So journalism as an industry is kinda
dying. So it's kinda weird to leave,
my life in the military, the promise of
a twenty year retirement.
It could be some, like, crazy ass thing,
like, go join the just to go try
to become a journalist, which itself was, like,
a difficult thing. And then being here, people
are like, welcome to the party. This party
is slowly dying. And
fast. And so it's like It's a dead
man's party. I don't know if I get
sued for yeah. Yeah. Right. And so, like
so then I'm like, okay. So we we're
we're in a dying industry.
And,
a lot of that's, like, kind of clinging
on to, like, older business models, not figuring
out how to, like, monetize,
like, the information that they're putting out there.
I think social media came on board and
ended up taking all the ad revenue. So,
like, we all know that kind of story.
But what I think is really interesting in
the time that we live in right now
is that,
you may have journalism and you have news,
and people have this, like, fixed idea of
what they think it should be and then
what they think it was.
And that model is kind of dying. So
we've seen, like, a divestiture like, divestment
that's across the country from, like, local news
sources Yeah. And leaning more towards this, like,
well, it's just going it's it's being replaced
by sort of national discussions.
And so, like, a lot of things are
now, like, beginning of who's Nuance, and it's
mostly, like, national sort of rage bait kind
of stuff.
And I think
it leads to, like, conversations that aren't very
fruitful.
And I I think it becomes concerning because
in The United States, I feel like,
we have
like, as individual citizens, like, not only is
all this, like, stuff all these, like, the
sources of basically reliable information sort of fading
or being sort of,
crowded out by other sources that are not
very reliable. Right? Just because it's the the
information space is being crowded. Not only is
that happening, it's also happening simultaneously with sort
of the rise in,
these social media networks and,
applications. Like, I can't do anything without signing
up for username and password. Right. Right. Right.
I have, like like, probably 80 different accounts
to 80 different things everywhere. And all those
people are collecting data on me, and I
have no idea what kind of data they're
collecting about me. Right? And then they're they're
using that stuff to feed me algorithms so
that whenever I go to, like, Instagram or
TikTok, it's basically this, like, supercharged,
really, like, great,
like, infomercial service. Or, like like, I'll be
watching some, like, running influencer because I'm really
into running. And next thing you know, I'm
being sold on some, like, running gels. I'm
like, what the hell?
And so it's like you're getting packaged into
this this other thing because people are throwing
up the monetization. And I I fear that
we're, like, heading to this territory where we're
basically living,
like, infomercials. Right? Like, that's Yeah. How we
get. It's, like, infomercial.
Well, you know, we when,
we were talking,
when I first called you about coming on
for this,
segment,
the reason I called was because
we I was sort of doing a,
sort of a canvassing on, like,
how
how are these damn glue stiffing kids
consuming info?
Like and what's what's the behavior?
And then we got to talking of, like,
stop. Let's do this on the podcast.
But, like so what are some of your
thoughts? Because
it seems to me, like,
if you're not,
like,
shooting on the black within about thirty seconds,
you've lost them. And then if you keep
going
more than maybe two and a half, three,
they're checking out.
Is that and I I didn't mean they
as in, like, all those young youngsters.
They meaning people who consume media. Right?
Yeah. Yeah. People who consume media. I I
think
well, I think one. Right? So, like,
people say journalism dying, but I actually think
it's just kinda being reinvented
to contradict my earlier self. I'm really good
at contradicting myself. All about, man. It's like
having arguments with ourselves. It's the foundation of
this podcast.
So I I I think it's being reinvented.
I think there's a democratization
that's happening alongside another trend, which is, like,
figuring out how are we gonna make sure
that the information that we're provide like, it's
just like a lot of people have a
high like, everybody has a hot take nowadays
on stuff. And so I think
it's being reinvented,
and I think in ways that
folks that, like, quote, unquote, traditional journalists are
uncomfortable with. And so I think we're seeing
the rise of, like, social media influencers as
being purveyors of information
that we're trying to find reliable. And if
you do enough digging, you'll find plenty of
traditional journalists and, like, journalistic work from, like,
twenty, thirty, fifty years ago that's, like, shitty.
Like, sort of, like, we could always find
that. Shittiness is what existed for as long
as this is a medium as existed. Right?
Yeah. Yeah. So,
you can lobby the you can, like, lob
the same kind of criticisms at
current, like, social media influencers. Right?
But the reality is that folks, a lot
of folks are finding,
their information in that way. And so it's
like the question then becomes, we have a
wider definition
of what fits
the news.
Mhmm. If the news is defined as, like,
a service that's gonna help you stay informed
on a topic or not.
And I maybe you're saying informed or misinformed.
Maybe maybe that's maybe that's, like, the line
of I think maybe informed, maybe it's not
news.
And yeah. So I I think there's that
that's happening. So I think there's, like, a
really lot of, like, exciting stuff that's happening
in that way because we're also seeing people
consume news in different ways that they haven't
in the past. You know? Not not that
radio hasn't existed for a long time, but
podcasts are exploding.
You know? You have, different multimedia formats that
are out there.
I'm trying to think. There's, like, one website
that does, like, a multimedia,
like, immersive it's like it's, like, crazy. They
they do, like, a four d? Like, it
squirts water in your face and stuff? Or
No. No. It's like you go to the
website and, like, you'll have, like, an audio
clip will play and then a video clip.
And then you'll, like, read the article, and
then it'll, like, shoot you some infographics.
I'm, like, blanking on the name of it
now, but it'll come up again. You know?
Yeah. Yeah.
But it's it's kinda neat. You're seeing people
kinda tell stories in different ways.
I mean, we're also seeing, like, a lot
of, like, media companies. Right?
Places like, New York Times, Washington Post, like,
really getting into Instagram stories.
Yeah. Yeah. I guess that's what I was
getting at, like, the shorts. Like, I think
even
what is it? Like, CNN, I think, has,
like, a shorts thing. It can, like, if
you scroll down far enough, you'll see there.
Have there and then AP AP has a
shorts. They do forty five second
things.
But so what you you mentioned something earlier
about sort of the stuffiness or, like,
traditional
journalist
people are in the traditional journalist journalism
camp sort of thumbing their nose at the
current trend.
But one of the reasons I feel like
the trend is become as pervasive as it
is is because
there's such a mistrust in institutions
and especially in gatekeeping.
And then so it almost seems like, well,
if I've got a criticism about where things
are going, I must be one of the
gatekeepers.
What what do you have to say about
that? Because you were on, you know, you
like, you talked about, you went from, you
know, Street Sense. Now you're kind of a
gatekeeper. Like, you're putting out style guides. And
so what are your thoughts on the gatekeeping?
I
I I will caveat with my own opinion
or my own perspective is that I whereas
in some ways, I share that mistrust of
gatekeeping because it does like you said, it's
the democratization of information, I think, is a
good thing.
But at the same time, when the primary
source
is more concerned about getting likes
than about accuracy and transparency, there's a problem.
Right? Like, so
was there a vacuum and it got filled,
like, almost, like, with, you know, terrorism and
extremism? Like, there's a vacuum and then the
biggest shit had filled it in? Or, like,
anyways, I I'm rambling, but what are your
thoughts on that? And I and I don't
know if likes necessarily translate to dollars in
your pocket. And I think when you look
use, like,
different social media sites,
that money goes to the social like, the
ads go to the social media site. Like,
that money doesn't go into the pocket of,
like That's true. Yeah. And so that's, like,
a problem in itself. Right? Like, I am,
like, producing this content,
and somebody else is posting the article on
their site, and they just screenshotted parts of
the article that I pay walled. And now
there's a whole discussion about the article I
wrote that nobody actually read, but only saw
the headline of. And now Facebook is profiting
off of that. Right?
And then and then and then it's being
shared by this influencer
who's using it for their brand. Right? Yeah.
Using that to sell products in our so
that that's, like, part of the problem that
we haven't figured out. How are we gonna
manage the regulation
if there's if there needs to be regulation,
like, around this kind of thing? So I
think I think that's part of the issue
here.
You know, I will say that, you know,
I used when I was an intel guy,
you know, one of the hardest conversations you
had with folks is, hey. Look out. You
know, we're probably gonna get attacked in this
area in the next twenty four hours. You
know, we need to be on board or
whatever. And they're like, how do you know
that? And you gotta be like,
you know, don't worry about it.
Probably. Right? Like, that's a hard conversation. And
journalism,
that doesn't really happen. You know, people gotta
tell you, you know, you gotta be you
gotta be very clear, very transparent about how
you do stuff. Now there are cases where
people do, like, anonymous sources and as as
as audiences should be, should always be skeptical
skeptical around stuff like that. I know that
a lot of the stuff not like, a
lot of the reporting that they're doing now
around, like, military and what's happening now.
I know a lot of journalists are, you
know, granting anonymity and stuff so that people
can be because there's, like because, I mean,
there's, like, a strong case for being with
dude. And, like,
take anonymous sources because in a situation like
I think the current climate like, I don't
know what it's like to work at the
Pentagon right now for,
a guy like Hegseth, but I can't imagine
it's, like, the most conducive to,
you know I don't I can't imagine that
they're very tolerant of people being critical
or talking to the press. So I imagine,
like, having anonymity.
But then
not to go down that rabbit hole whether
or not you're gonna get polygraph.
I don't know how that's gonna work.
But I I,
I I will say that,
Yeah. I used to think when you go
went to the Pentagon, you had to be
lobotomized, but I don't know. Maybe they incorporate
this.
I don't I I mean, I I honestly
would I would pay to just spend a
day there to see,
what that life is like because I I
I can't imagine.
It feels like it's there's a lot of
things happening there. And Well, they've got a
DMV, dude. So if you wanna jump the
lines, man, you can just hit the DMV
at the Pentagon and do some canvassing while
you're there.
Yeah. Right.
But, yeah, I think I think the, you
know, the news is being redefined.
I think there are more people that are
allowed to do it, which I think is
great.
I you know, and I I have this,
like, my own theory. Right? So I think,
eventually, we're gonna get so
I have his own theory and it's kind
of like a, you know, a BS theory
in some ways, but,
literally a BS theory in that. I think
we're gonna become so inundated
at a certain point with BS
that the natural reliable sources of information will
come to light.
That people that have built their reputations around
being dependable and, like, giving factual stuff, but
that reputation is gonna carry farther. That's a
I think those are the things that will
survive in the long term. Oh, interesting. You're
wrong. But I I just think that after
a while, like, you know, you you keep
getting fed bullshit for something. If you're a
strong critical thinker,
you know, that bullshit won't stand for very
long. Right? Like, you just question it. And
then and then you'll move on. You'll find
something new. That's my theory.
I don't know
whether that will pan out that way. Yeah.
And it doesn't seem to have
panned out that way.
And it does feel like we are in
a time where there is plenty of bullshit
that's out there. I don't know from a
lot of these that were on this podcast,
but I think I've cussed at least a
dozen times up to this point, so you're
fine.
But, yeah, shame on you, potty mouth.
But here's the,
interesting that as you mentioned that, and I
think that's a very optimistic point of view,
and I'm hopeful that you're right.
But I
just out of pure coincidence,
as far as the curriculum
with our boys,
in their reading,
we fell upon, Animal Farm.
So we're, like, you know and, yeah, obviously,
as for those who have read it,
if you haven't, check it out, man. It's
only, like, a 40 pages. It's amazing. It
was written in 1956,
so it gives you an indication of, like,
what's old is new. But, yeah, the big
thing with the pigs is, like, the disinformation.
Right? Because
none of the other animals can read,
and if you just say something
regardless of its truthiness,
if you just say something enough times, people
just they just start believing it. You know?
Like, oh, that's not Snowball was a total
douche in the battle. If you guys don't
remember, like, well, I thought he was actually
one of the heroes. Like, no. That was
wrong. And, like, yeah, I guess you're right.
He was kind of a scumbag.
And then that's how it works. Right? And,
also, two made the mistake of looking at,
I think it was a little twilight zone,
to serve Matt. You know? That's like the
one guy's like, it's a cockpaw.
So, hopefully, that's what you're saying is correct
is is that between those two
analogies that eventually the guy who says this
is a cookbook and then people are looking
around going, holy shit. They're eating people.
Then they'll just start turning to that person
and be like,
hey. Can you tell us more about this
theory you have about it being a cookbook?
Because it really looks like they're eating people.
You know, it's interesting too. Like, one of
the things that kinda gives me hope is
I was actually at a,
it's the night media forum, which is kind
of a just like a gathering of senior
news executives. Just a few not a while
back, and,
former,
surgeon general Vivek Murthy, he he was our
keynote speaker, and he talked about this trend
amongst just youth, like college age kids and
Yeah. High schoolers.
There's actually this, like, new trend that's I'm
trying to remember what the name of it
is called, but or or these folks are
kinda just giving up on social media.
They're giving up on social media. They're giving
up Because he was the surgeon general that
warned, right, against
social media for children. Right? Yeah. Yeah. He
he does. And he he recommends, like, you
know, limitations around it and and all that.
And, yeah, I I gotta say I agree.
And,
and so this is, like, a group of
young folks,
you know, have been self organizing
around this movement to basically give up smartphones,
take up flip phones, and then instead of,
you know, like, engaging in all of the
social media crap to, like, be reading and,
like, and engaging deeper around stuff because they
started to notice that the quality of conversations
is just kind of tanking.
Yeah. I think, one of the things that
he brought up that I thought was really
powerful was that,
the biggest fear so there are two couple
of things that he brought up that I
thought were really interesting. One of them was
that,
if you ask, you know, high school age,
college age,
kids, you know, what their biggest fear is,
Their biggest fears, like, when it comes to
the,
school and stuff, is being canceled by their
peers for saying something that they feel is
socially unacceptable.
So, like, can you imagine having that? Like,
I remember being in class and just saying
outrageous stuff
and then being challenged
via Socratic method and then coming in to
learn how to, like, reason and logic.
I I think a lot of,
young folks these days are kind of being
robbed of that opportunity.
And And then the second thing he brought
up that I thought was really fascinating
was,
he said, you know, he he asked folks
to kinda guess what we think the demographic
is that says the most loneliest. You know,
what age group do we think? So my
mind automatically goes to, like, really old folks.
No. It's apparently, like, high school. Yeah. The,
I can't believe I'm drawing a blank, but
he wrote the book, Anxious Generation.
And it's yeah. Dude, the the statistics on
young people right now,
the mental health stuff is crazy. Acting on
social media, it's not real life connection. Yeah.
You know?
And, you know, I've, like over the years,
like, as, like, an adult, right, like, I've
even when I was in the marines, like,
I I you know, like, you develop
over time. You're influenced by others, and you
think about things more critically and stuff. And
I worry that
that kind of level of engagement
is lost
in the other shorter mediums
that we share. Now I think,
there's a demand for that.
I think the demand comes from people. Right?
And so, like, I think,
we will get to that place. I mean,
I I'm, like, not against, like, you know,
a funny cat video on TikTok or something.
You know?
But but I I do think there is
something valuable
about that, and I do think that I
mean, I don't know. I hope my BS
theory pans out eventually. Like
Yeah. Yeah. Not not just someone that's like,
that's a peanut. That's porn. Yeah.
No. I hope that's right. I I think
I think there is something to it. I
know within religious circle, especially,
you know, evangelical Christian circles,
there is this sense of like,
you know, connection and community as being a
real,
you know, a very real
fundamental aspect of life. Like, you just can't
and then,
too, I think in a lot of ways,
we're still as much as we wanna just
sort of forget about it, we I think
we really are still in
sort of the,
the recovery phase from,
the pandemic, man. I think that just really
it really fucked us in so many ways.
Interestingly,
we had a guest on the show not
too long ago, Matt Kaltrider.
A wonderful, wonderful book, Double Knot, his memoir.
Dude, so good if you wanna check that
out.
But, he's he's getting back in writing mode.
That's a quick one. It's actually, five essays
that he wrote. He was in Afghanistan
about the same time as you and I,
I think, if I remember correctly. Anyhow, he's,
amazing. He's in the area. But,
one of the things he says as he's
getting back into writing mode is when he
gets home,
he puts his phone down and grabs a
book. And then every time he feels the
need to scroll, he'll just read even if
it's just like a paragraph or a page.
And so it takes about the same amount
of time. And then, you know, little by
little, he finishes the book.
Yeah.
I mean, it was something similar. I,
I come home and I, like, reach like,
it's weird. I think I have to make
the habit change. I'll reach for, like, my
TikTok. Like, I wanna see cats, you know,
and I wanna see Yeah. Just, like, stupid
stupid shit. I wanna sound like, you know,
like, I'm into the America's funniest home videos
kinda.
Yeah. Yeah. I wanna see people falling over
and
and then, and then I'm like, you know,
I'll grab my, I'm using this Kindle alternative
called Kobo. I like it because you can
write on it. Okay. Cool. It's I think
it's less expensive. But, anyways, I I, I'll
pick that up, my ereader, and
I'll start reading. And, man, I,
yeah, it's way better. I read this I
don't totally random.
This highly recommend this book I just read
finished called Frankenstein in Baghdad.
Ah, love the title. Yeah. It's like, basically,
basically, suicide bombs and v bids are going
off, like, every day. And then one day,
this v bid goes off.
Body parts everywhere.
Some random dude comes out. You know, he's,
like, drinking at the local tea shop or
whatever, and he feels bad. So he's like,
you know, these are not humans because they're
just random body parts. So he takes them
home, and he's like, I'm gonna sew them
into one body, and then we can bury
the body. That way, like, it recognized. At
least it looks human.
So he sews it together, and, eventually, it
disappears on him.
And the the thing that disappears on him
is a Frankenstein.
It's, like, really incredible. Highly recommend.
And it's fiction, I take it. Right? Fiction.
Yes. You know, this didn't happen in real
life. So he sort of accidentally creates a
Frankenstein monster?
Yeah. And it's it's a really great translator
out there, Jonathan Wright.
He translates from Arabic into English. I don't
know the guy. But I appreciate his work
because I feel like the translations,
really do the original work justice even though
I can't read Arabic. Yeah.
You you can feel that it comes from
a different language, but it's kind of refreshing
to see
a different take on
war
from, like, a different, you know, lens. Right?
Like, I think oftentimes
anything that I read about war or military
is usually written from
the perspective
of, like, the American
or the American perspective of, like, us doing
it.
And this is kinda interesting because it's, like,
perspective of, like, the local,
host nation folks experiencing it.
And so, like, American troops
are, like, kind of interspersed throughout. They're not
the main part of the narrative, and it's
kind of interesting to see where they are
in the background. And then on the other
hand too, like, you kinda get what they're
talking about. Right? It's kinda funny. Yeah. It's
just interesting. Like, it's like
a VVV going off is, like, how it's,
like, raining, you know, like, on a day.
So it's, like, it's not even like a
it's, like, dealt with in such a subtle,
like, background thing. Like, oh, yeah. It's just,
like, noise in the background, like, birds chirping,
the bit goes off.
You know? And it's kind of kind of
fast.
Yeah. Like, oh, I get get a little,
little little, raining today.
That's really fascinating. I guess that comes full
circle,
as we're talking about sort of
representation,
and perspective
because
in
a similar way,
you know, like, someone who,
is you know, if if,
information
outlet, we'll call it, is trying to
cover a story about,
you know, a refugee crisis in, like, I
don't know, South America,
it'd be really great to find
a journalist
who is from
South America whose
family might have been refugees. Right? Like and
so
you can really sort of get,
like you said,
that level of perspective
that isn't just sort of from the outside
looking in that's conveying facts, but is actually
able to provide a very real,
almost visceral sort of context.
Yeah. And and it makes sense too. Like,
there's, like, a lot of different angles. Right?
Like, it also like, when I meet another
marine, there doesn't need to be, like, all
this extra, you know,
talk about just, like you know, like, there's,
like, always this frivolous bullshit you have to
go to when you're talking to somebody about
your experience. I got a ton of my
military experience, but I'm talking to a nonmilitary
person who's been isolated from the veterans community.
There's no anything about us. Like, there's a
lot of, like, hand holding
and, like, hesitance and, like, I gotta, like,
you know, like, to do all this, like,
pretense and explanation
around stuff. I remember once, like, talking to
somebody about something they're like,
they're like, what's a flap jacket? Like, at
the end of the story, like, what's a
flap? I'm like, wait. You don't know what
a flap jacket is? Like,
we
gotta go all the way back to this,
you know, and then they're like, you know,
I've heard talking to somebody else once and
and then and talking about whatever units I
was in or whatever, and they're like, oh,
that's so cool.
What's a unit?
Yeah. I'm like, shit. You know, and you
forget that there's, like, this gulf of Yeah.
Like, because there's a common language
on veterans. And so, like, this exists
all over the place. Right? Like, because there's,
like, lots of different kinds of communities and
stuff. You know, it's like
a a person who's, like, a hockey player
going to explain hockey to somebody that's Yeah.
Like, oh, for checking. Like, I don't you
don't have to explain what a for check
is. Yeah. It's like, why we wanna like,
when if you hire a sports reporter, you
probably want somebody that's, like, done sports before.
Like, it kinda makes sense. So I think
that you just said done sports. You may.
You know? Say again? As I love that
you just said done sports.
Yeah. Alright. Right.
Well, dude, I know you're I'm really cutting
into your afternoon, man. I really appreciate,
you spending the time to talk. I mean,
we could we'll probably literally be here for
hours, which we need to get a beer
and then just do this maybe
off
mic or whatever. I'll I'll sneak a microphone
in or something.
But I didn't wanna
miss the opportunity to talk to you about
your guys' executive leadership program,
because I think that's really fascinating.
It seems like it's a an avenue or
a, a resource,
that most
of these of, you know, sort of niche,
organizations
offer. Could you talk a little bit about
that and, like, what it what it all
means and what it does?
Yeah. So, we have an executive leadership program.
It's it's almost it takes almost place over
here for one year. So we have, like,
four like, a four day in person,
sort
of, four day in person I was gonna
use the term boot camp, but that is
a wrong word to use for this crowd.
A four
day business orientation session, right, where you kinda
get to know each other. And the program
is mostly built for journalism and media executives,
folks that are mid to senior career that
are trying to kinda get a leg up
on their gamble.
And there's all sorts of stuff that we
go over during that one week,
including, like, how do you negotiate a better
salary,
better conditions for your job,
you know, talk about, like, some management issues
that you have, learn more about your personality,
who you are as a person. There's, like,
this cultural element too because many of us,
because we're the Asian American Journal Association,
tend to be, you know, Asian American business
of color and go pursue the program.
It's not the only folks that participate, but
there is an element,
to the programming where what we found was
that, you know, in this program, for instance,
for me,
it was, like, the only place in my
professional career where I've been around other multiracial
Asian people.
But and it was kind of refreshing to
hear that other people had similar stories to
share about just, like, their professional experiences and,
like, how they've come up.
And so that that was, like, interesting. So
that's, like, a great sort of part of
the program. And then, folks will then meet
virtually. They meet virtually. They do coaching sessions.
They meet with, like, different mentors that we
pair them up with. We have different kinds
of case studies and activities. So if you
think of, like, TDGs
Yeah. That we do in the marines, we
have, like, TDGs
but for
journalism and media exec people.
And then and then and then everybody kind
of does their final,
the final sessions.
We do, like, broad leadership kind of training,
at our annual convention. And this next year,
it's gonna be or this year, it's gonna
be in Seattle.
But it's it's a really great program. You
know, it's,
journalism executives,
folks working in the media across, like, the
kind of communications
field.
And what I found that was really great
about the program is
the,
the cohort. Because you you build you you
you yeah. Basically,
we help cater
and make a brain trust.
And so, like, I did the program in
2023,
which isn't very long ago.
And I still have an open, like, text
chain going with the folks I was within
the program with. And before I even moved
to this job,
activated the text chain and was like, okay.
I wanna go into negotiating my salary.
Let's
help me out, guys. Yeah. Yeah. So I
think wherever you can develop a network is
and of of supporters is great.
But, yeah, that's that's a little bit about
the program that we have here.
Dude, that's really cool. Yeah. That that's really
interesting. I think about,
you know, one of the things is we
were speaking of cohorts and and leaving we're
leaving AU.
It was just like,
you know,
the the faculty did. I thought, you know,
as much as they could do in a
in a really,
a very caring and
and thoughtful and engaging way. But in a
lot of ways, when we left AU, I
was like, alright. What do I do now?
And that was it. Yeah. There was no,
like, laugh. Alright,
dude. Good luck.
Yeah. It's it's it's tough, I think. You
know? And I I don't know. It's funny
too because, like, I think there are, like,
some other vets that I know,
that I, like, you know, wasn't arranged with,
served with. And,
like, the other day, I, like, texted a
buddy, Mike. So I was going through I'm
I'm writing and I'm still working my novel.
Me too. I actually hit you up later
on for helping me edit this thing because
I'm all I'm almost done now.
And,
I hit him up because I found I've
the guy had, like, you know, I kept
all these notes, like, my old notebooks.
Just and I had, like, a quote book.
And in my quote book, I found him
I I quoted him saying, like, oh, I'll
see you in a fork night. And I
was like, a fork night? What do you
mean? He's like, four nights. You know, like,
four problems with a fork. And, like, that's
that's not a phrase.
But that made the quote book, you know,
and there are a lot of other things,
but I probably can't share, here in this
forum. They were in the quote book. And
so I texted him. They're like, oh, shit.
Been, like, six years since I class texted
you, man.
Dude, that's great. I love that's amazing.
I see how the fuck
I eat. Alright, brother, man. On that note,
dude, let's just that that's a great that's
a microphone drop right there.
But, dude, thank you so much for coming
on,
and
for sharing your experiences.
Best of luck, obviously, to everything that you
got going on. And, man, I'm really hoping
I can't wait to see,
the the survivor of the bullshit wars
lead us to a better place.
Who knows? Or maybe we'll just be getting,
like we're just all gonna get our information
from, like, robots or something. I don't know.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It will just be, like,
on a like, an assembly line where we're
just going, that's corn. That's a peanut. That's
that's diarrhea.
Have you been watching severance?
Dude,
love. K. We got to watch Severance later
on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. It's amazing. So
good. I was actually thinking about it, Tim.
Like, oh, is it Thursday night? Thursday night.
Yeah. Sometimes I get it early. Alright, dude.
Well, dude, have a great afternoon,
and, yeah, let's get that beer.
Okay. Sounds good. Alright. Bye. Yeah. Bye.
Scuttlebutt is a production of the Marine Corps
Association.
You have heard the voices or contributions from
major Vic Ruble, USMC retired,
Nancy Lichtman, William Trudeng, and our guest.
Ty Frasier is the editor, sound engineer, and
technical producer.
The Marine Corps Association is not an agency
of the US government.
The opinions expressed in this episode are the
personal views of the participants and do not
reflect the official position of the United States
Marine Corps, the Department of Defense, or the
Marine Corps Association.